This weekend brings us "The God Complex" - the eleventh episode of DOCTOR WHO's Sixth Season/Series, meaning we have only two left to go ("Closing Time" and "The Wedding of River Song").
"The God Complex" is scripted by Toby Whithouse ("School Reunion," "The Vampires of Venice") and directed by the awesome Nick Hurran, who knocked it out of the park with last week's "The Girl Who Waited."
In case you missed previous Docback posts on the matter, YES we'll be returning to vintage/classic/retro WHO festivities as soon as this current Season/Series ends...and YES we'll re-join the new stuff as it comes along, even opening a Docback for Christmas Day's episode.
IF SPONGE BOB DECREASES MENTAL FUNCTIONING...
THIS piece via Yahoo & AP offers the result of a contentious study.
The problems were seen in a study of 60 children randomly assigned to either watch "SpongeBob," or the slower-paced PBS cartoon "Caillou" or assigned to draw pictures. Immediately after these nine-minute assignments, the kids took mental function tests; those who had watched "SpongeBob" did measurably worse than the others.
Most kids were white and from middle-class or wealthy families. They were given common mental function tests after watching cartoons or drawing. The SpongeBob kids scored on average 12 points lower than the other two groups, whose scores were nearly identical.
I've never been an ardent believer in these kind of studies, as I feel a multitude of factors impact how individuals...whether they be young or mature...perceive media.
I could break down these factors for hours - but, suffice to say, I personally believe that...no matter what we're exposed to...television, film, video games, etc...their impact on us is most heavily governed by our own life experience, by how we've already been formed by the world before our exposure. I believe we shape the media we're taking in based on what we bring to the table.
Elements that I feel strongly influence our perception of media include (but are not limited to): are we loved, neglected, or beaten? Are we fundamentally happy...or are we bitter? Have our imaginations been regularly fostered, or have we been treated like lumps? Do we have passions and direction, or are we constantly trying to find our place in the scheme of things? These kind of considerations...as far as I'm concerned...are far more potent indicators of how we'll respond to media than the actual content of the media itself. And, unfortunately, many surveys of this nature tend to not factor in such considerations. I do think media has a number of responsibilities, but I also think it's far too easy...and far too lazy...to summarily condemn its influence.
With all of this in mind: I'll confess that the first questioned which popped into my mind after reading this report is: "OK, so what impact does DOCTOR WHO" have on viewers?" I don't presume to speak for any other Docbackers when saying this, but I find even the most troubled DOCTOR WHO stories to be rather exhilarating...I feel more activated mentally and creatively after my exposure to them.
In the past, I know that DOCTOR WHO has come under scrutiny and fire for its "violent" content...discuss below?
SO, EXACTLY HOW MANY DALEKS CONSTITUTES "AN ARMY"?
My family feels I have "an army" of Daleks - but I only I have 5. Three 18" variants - two of the Voice Command variety, one that's straight-up RC, and two 12" versions (one of the red "Apple" Daleks, and a plain old gold RTD-era version). To me, five Daleks do not constitute "an army" - although three was considered an army in the original version of "Day of the Daleks" so perhaps I'm just wrong.
Either way, five…is only the beginning as far as I'm concerned. I need an action figure sized Dalek, a 12" yellow "Apple" Dalek, The Dalek Paradigm, a Dalek from those crazy Peter Cushing movies, a Dalek alarm clock, and a great big, pimped out, legit replica Dalek. Not sure I'll ever be able to afford that last one, but a boy can dream, can't he?
This said, I'm quite certain I'll never, EVER achieve the following haul…despite my vast envy and knee-jerk ambition to equal or best this man. The 2012 Guinness Book of World Records (US HERE, UK HERE) says that 49 year old Rob Hull has the world's largest collection of Daleks - 571 of them, to be precise. THIS piece at DoctorWhoNews offers an image of Rob's collection, along with the requisite disparagement from his wife. Hull's collection is both magnificent and humbling, and a stunning illustration of how extreme Dalekmania can become. And, I should think, it's also an unspoken template many Docbackers may secretly aspire to match, even if they don't say so aloud.
CBS TO "MODERNIZE" SHERLOCK HOLMES EVEN THOUGHT IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE
Even though this isn't precisely DOCTOR WHO related, the following does connect to WHO in a strangely circuitous way.
Earlier this week, we learned that CBS had ordered a pilot script hat would bring SHERLOCK HOLMES into modern day (details HERE). As many Docbackers know, Sherlock Holmes has already been "modernized" spectacularly by DOCTOR WHO's Steven Moffat and frequent WHO-verse citizen Mark Gatiss. More episodes of their SHERLOCK show appear on BBC (UK) and PBS (US) in 2012, and it'll presumably continue beyond that. Adding fuel to this peculiar move is, of course, the continuing bigscreen adaptations the character from Robert Downey Jr. and director Guy Ritchie. So…to put it bluntly…what the hell, CBS?
At this time, I have no inside knowledge of the CBS matter whatsoever. But if I had to indulge in a bit of potentially shaky guesswork, I'd wager that…
1) CBS & Co will port Sherlock Holmes & Co. into the modern day as an "edgy", slick, buddy cop-ish re-invention that will likely bear little resemblance to our already beloved BBC SHERLOCK. I.e. I'm presuming an amped-up, Americanized Sherlock Holmes a la the network's highly successful HAWAII FIVE-O reinvention…
2) That Moffat/Gatiss' SHERLOCK must certainly be on CBS's radar, and at some point…should the project movie forward…CBS will almost certainly be forced to justify an undertaken that's currently being pursued elsewhere…
3) CBS may perceive the Moffat/Gatiss SHERLOCK as "niche" and could well believe that either show is unlikely to pose any kind of threat to the other.
In the end, though, CBS even conjuring such a feat is crassly unimaginative and seems to lack…I dunno what word I'm looking for here…class? While I can envision both "modernized" Sherlock Homes emerging as uniquely distinctive pieces, the potential for confusing and possibly dividing audiences here seems unnecessarily high - and more than a tad reckless.
It's important to note that a script being ordered DOES NOT necessarily guarantee a pilot will be shot…much less make it to the air, or portend a full series. Still, CBS' shenanigans are odd - and I thought this might be fun fodder for discussion in the Docback below.
A CALL FOR UNUSUAL DOCTOR WHO-RELATED IMAGES, AUDIO, VIDEO, OR WHATEVER
Regular Docbackers may've noticed that I traditionally post an image or video at the top of each Docback - always DOCTOR WHO related, and from any point in DOCTOR WHO's history.
I try to steer clear of widely seen promotional images or videos, much preferring content that is less commonly known. This media can, and has, taken various forms - from a vintage commercial of Tom Baker in character as the fourth Doctor hocking computers, to a photo of young Steven Moffat reading a DOCTOR WHO book, to an image sent by Docbacker Beamus of third Doctor Jon Pertwee posing with Beamus' homemade Dalek. I've received some wonderful media from ya'll in the past and am always looking for more. If you know of any images, video, or audio you think Docbackers might be interested in…please feel free to send it to me HERE.
The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback below - aka "Docback" - is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe.
Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.
While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become aSPOILER INTENSIVE ZONElate tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday September 10) - when "The God Complex "airs in the U.K.
If you wish to remain free and clear of "God Complex" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, you should tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.
U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS): please consider this ample notice and fair warning.
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks" - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks. These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them. Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)...
2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity. Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example. "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well. "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?" Is NOT good.
And, above all...
3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way. Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning. Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated. Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.
In short, it's easy. Be excellent to each other. Now party on...
I've been otherwise engaged at 7pm on the last few Saturdays so have had to play catch-up on Sunday/Monday, leaving me scared of spoilers until I've seen it. Same this weekend. Already cleared my schedule for the last two episodes though. :)
Clips make it look suitably weird and creepy... I have my guess at who's going to turn out to be the big baddie at the end but fingers crossed I'm wrong.
1. It's got a clown in it.
2. Er, that's it.
Do I win a prize?
As for whether it'll be good, I have very high hopes. Naturally I am most interested in the little tidbits that can be wilfully misinterpreted.
As for whether Doctor Who stimulates mental activity or not - well, if the mid-week docback was anything to go by, by the way in which it's re-enlightened my interest in the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics, I have to conclude it's damaging. Egads!
Oh, I did like the conclusion of the study posted though - Spongebob turns you into an idiot. Nice. and the kids don't even have the excuse of having smoked a fatty-boom-batty to draw on.
11. Petrichor. Crimson. Delight.
That's something spectacular right there.
Now, there were a couple of intersting interviews posted with the Moff and Matt Smith on AOL TV
Which y'all have probably seen, but I do like how Matt intimates the presence of arc stuff in every episode, and the Moff describes the relationship of Amy & Melody as having been hidden in plain site. Mind you, the Tardis has itself always been hidden in plain sight, technically, for the last 48 years, so I doubt any of this means anything at all...
It's called HOUSE. And for the most part, it's way better than any Holmes adaptation.
Anyway, now we're onto the last couple of episodes, hopefully things will stop being played so loosely. Time to start tying up the loose ends.
I've been very good about spoilers this year, but from what I've seen, this one looks very Kubrick.
I've been thinking, with the title, what if we see a lot of old-school "gods" reappear (ala School Reunion, but call it the god reunion)?
Clown=Gods of Ragnarok
What if we find that the "gods" are behind the Silence?
Probably not. But would be an interesting twist.
Oh. And the Dalek Emperor.
One of the things I've particularly been enjoying of this series in particular (though it's been building up for a while, especially in Waters of Mars) is the Doctor's morally cloudy behaviour. There have been a few times where I've found myself not knowing whether I actually like the Doctor, even though I think the character is brilliant and heroic.
All too often, characters (particularly, y'know, for kids) are oversimplified or made to be moral bastions (see Raimi's Spidey, who had to be taken over by a pile of black alien goo to even go into a bar). But how much more interesting, mentally stimulating and useful for kids' development is seeing that people are complicated? (Discuss.)
All a bit serious, that. Sorry. I just 'spose that's one of the things I want to see play out - not just the plot or the series arc, but the character development. How often do you say that about Saturday night TV?
Looking forward to more wibbly-wobbly-morally-worally goodness on Saturday. As well as monsters. And possibly clowns.
Please God not the Dalek Emporer.
Daleks are rubbish - we all know that. I mean, What do they bring, other than their chronic xenophobia, their disintegrator beams and their plungers? Nothing - that's what. They're nothing more than comic book Nazi pepper-pot shaped plumbers.
'Exterminate! Exterminate! Do your pipes need lagging?'
I noticed there wasn't a mention of testing the students for mental function before starting the assignments. Maybe they should look for the delta, the level of change in mental function by each activity?
Well, you might not find gods per se behind it, but you might find God's representative in the Universe - the Papal Mainframe being responsible. Well, really, those who are controlling the Papal Mainframe might be responsible.
Yes, they're showing him being more morally cloudy, but this isn't the first time - Sylvester McCoy really did horrible things to Ace for the greater good (and for her good) if you come down to it.
One thing to think about - take the story The Invasion of Time, and substitute a different Doctor for Tom Baker. Which ones do you think would be convincing that they'd actually be working with aliens for the overthrow of Gallifrey?
Matt Smith is the first that comes to mind where I could believe it. Sylvester McCoy I could see doing it, and possibly Troughton (if we got the Evil of the Daleks Troughton). Colin Baker might just get too upset at the Vardans and figure he can take care of them without subterfuge. Pertwee, Davison, Tennant I couldn't see trying it. For that matter I wouldn't see Hartnell doing it, mainly because that type of story just seems too far from what we're used to dealing with in Hartnell stories (also because - despite The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors - it's just strange to picture Hartnell post-An Unearthly Child getting involved with Gallifrey).
And I mean, a group of them. The God Complex might be leading to the whole contingent aiming against him.
I forgot the Osirins. Which would also work with the pyramid we have seen.
Indeed, I am thinking we are seeing all kinds of "gods." And who else but these gods might be interested in finding out "what is always before them"?
So, I am thinking the God Complex might really be about something deeper; indeed, I do think the "Fenric Viking" will be in it. And I think he might represent the "what is going behind the scenes" ending which will launch to the last two episodes. But I think if Fenric, the Gods of Ragnarok follow - and we know they love "clowns. So the clown makes me think the two are together. With the Osirins. And I still get a "Nimon" feel, too. I am just beginning to think the God Complex might be about all those aliens who have been "gods" upset about the Doctor who is also "godlike" (even last week, old Amy basically said as much).
Yes, a morally ambigious (or possibly just plain evil) Doctor is quite invigorating, but as you yourself note, the character remains brilliant and heroic, and needs to do so, and the program isn't likely to ever veer away from that underlying notion, from what I can tell, and that's as it should be. They tried it a bit with Colin Baker back in the dark days of 1985 and that, er, didn't really work... That said, I don't mind Colin Baker as a Doctor in retrospect, despite him being as subtle as a blunderbuss; funnily enough it's Peri I can't stand and I actually prefer Mel. Now there's non-conventional...
As for making the characters complicated, in the case of the Doctor at least, we're lucky we have Smith in the role at the moment, as he is, imho, a much more capable and, despite his manic energy, nuanced performer than, say, Sylvester McCoy was, who simply wasn't as much fun when they last tried making the Doctor sneaky and manipulative.
It's just one depressing Doctor-less sequence after another, with no actual story beyond "the Doctor dies, shit happens". Exposition is left to Rose who, for reasons never explained, has all the answers (which she seems to forget come the next episode). It's moody, and gritty and supposedly adult...but it's also completely fucking stupid.
DOCTOR WHO up for "Best Drama Series" (Steven Moffat, Richard Curtis, Gareth Roberts, Stephen Thompson, Neil Gaiman and Matthew Graham).
SHERLOCK up for "Best Television Short-Form Drama" (Steven Moffat, Mark Gatiss and Stephen Thompson).
Results 16 November. A heartfelt tip-of-the-hat and congratulations to all!
"You remind me of Edgar Allan Poe's Dupin. I had no idea that such individuals did exist outside of stories." Sherlock Homes rose and lit his pipe. "No doubt you think that you are complimenting me in comparing me to Dupin," he observed. "Now, in my opinion, Dupin was a very inferior fellow. That trick of his of breaking in on his friends' thoughts with an apropos remark after a quarter of an hour's silence is really very showy and superficial. He had some analytical genius, no doubt; but he was by no means such a phenomenon as Poe appeared to imagine."
From the Purloined Letter, by Edgar Allan Poe.
Also, whilst I think of it:
Nihil sapientiae odiosius acumine nimio. (Nothing is more hateful to wisdom than excessive cleverness)
From a Study in Scarlet, by Arthur Conan Doyle.
I loved it for all the reasons you hated it. It's odd; usually when RTD episodes went into 'This plot point is unexplainable BUT IT'S KINDA COOL' mode I would be, 'meh, okay, it is what it is, and I can see the monsters, very nice,' but for some reason I really enjoyed Turn Left. Actually, I think my enjoyment of it was all down to Murray Gold's score, because you're right - the storyline makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. But it was the Donna show, and I loved Donna, so yippee!
You're right, of course, about the other Doctors (note to self: must must must go back and rewatch some classic Who) - and now that you say it, I think that it's Smith's performance that's really brought it to the fore recently. He can do something that seems both out of character and within character at the same time.
Personally, of the Nu-Who Doctors, I was never fully bought into Christopher Eccelston's nice/funny/crazy performance, so for me, he was always a bit too on the threatening side, even if he was grinning and saying "fantastic!" Then David Tennant, brilliant and amazing actor though he is, for me never quite got the chance to explore some of the depths we're exploring in this series.
On another note - what's a good Tom Baker episode to start with? I've seen so few, and haven't properly watched one in ages.
I'll be out of town in an area without BBCA for the final episode, and while I DO know of a couple of sites where I can watch it online, I'd appreciate some input from my fellow Docbackers
Thanks in advance!
Bravo and props, but I find it interesting that DW isn't nominated in the children's televison category; that's telling.
Well, I hope one or other of the shows win an award, and the winners enjoy their writer's guild chequebook and pen, or whatever the prizes are this year. Oh, and I'm glad Tracy Beaker got a shout, because for a number of years it featured Clive Rowe, and he's my shout out for Doctor no 12.
City of Death is the one closest to tone to nu Who. Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Weng Chiang and Genesis of the Daleks and the Ark in Space are also brilliant. The Deadly Assassin's a good one that takes place on Gallifrey and doesn't involve any companions. I'm waiting for The Face of Evil to get released on DVD, it's the first one with Leela in it. It has some wonderful dialog:
- Here, have a jelly baby
- It's true then, the Evil One DOES eat babies!
do you use Comcast/Xfinity at home to watch BBCA? I think the next day they'll have it on their on demand.
Also, if you're trying to stay legal and can wait a day or so, another option would be to get the streaming video from Amazon or iTunes or someplace like that.
While we all know and love Poe's body of work, I think it's interesting that Doyle's only hit was Holmes. Maybe that is why Doyle tried to walk away from the character. When your greatest work was created by another person it's got to grate on you.
I can only imagine how broken he felt when he realized just how little he had to offer outside of "his" (LOL) creation and had to come crawling back.
Y'know, I actually DO have Comcast Xfinity, but haven't watched an ep online that way. What I did the last time I was out of town was find one of the various "illegal" sites & watched it there.
Now that you've reminded me of the availability, I'll likely watch it via Xfinity.
Yes, Robot was really a Pertwee style story, but has its own moments. The first Doctor Who episode I saw was episode 3 of Robot (complete with Howard da Silva narration for an introduction and for the next episode trailer they included in the US edit at the time) and it worked perfectly fine for hooking me into watching the series.
I would agree, though, that Ark in Space is a better story to start with. If someone's not worried about trying to watch them in order, though, I'd go with City of Death. ('I love your butler, he's so violent.')
There was a fun pilot for a modern day Sherlock Holmes story back in 1987 that I wish had been turned into a series. It had a silly premise but worked as a Time After Time type of romantic thriller. Watson had used cryogenics to freeze a dying Sherlock. The great detective was then thawed out in modern days and teamed with Watson's granddaughter who helped him adapt to this strange new world.
More squads really.
I might still have around here somewhere, though I doubt it. Circa 1987, found a box of plastic miniatures, ready to paint. Daleks vs. Cybermen. I think it was a West End games product, though FASA was doing the Doctor Who game at the time.
Obviously more than 3. With the Day of the Daleks release this week, on the 'special edition' we see the number of Daleks involved in the final fight boosted up digitally.
There's some nice stuff in the special edition version. I just wish they had kept the second Ogron rushing through saying 'no complications' after it took so long for the first Ogron to say his bit.
The Nick Briggs Dalek voices were a definite improvement, and the new effects were nice overall.
Maybe that's the reason for giving Sherlock a possible shot... knowing that it's pretty succesful in Europe.
Personally I think, let them try it out! It can't wash away my anticipation of Moffat's and Gatiss's Sherlock anyway. Just too great to miss! I'd certainly gave the American version a try, though. Why not?
Surely they wouldn't make an American version of A Madman With A Box, or would they...?
Merrick, Lots of respect for these columns, as this is the first time ive posted. Ive been watching Who since Pertwee days...wow..i feel old. Anywho...
In reference to the post about mental functioning, yes, youre correct, its about life experience, basically nurture over nature, except for one problem, the experiment was about kids. Youre viewing the entire experiment with the view and wisdom of an adult, which doesnt work..hindsight is always 20/20 after all. We can look at things that children see NOW, but we can never, ever presume to know what they might make of them, only what we think they SHOULD make of them. After all, most KIDS that see the SW prequels apparently love Jar Jar. Damn, kids are dumb sometimes....
Was pretty cool. I remember watching an old VHS copy of that when I was a teen, and now, to see it with the new effects.....just awesome. Even the sound effects sounded newer/better. I wish they would just do that with all of them.
Says 10/10 stars!
As I've told him, Ian has many things worthy of his pride; this is one of them. Hopefully getting through all the 2/e red tape will be the next thing he can boast!
Thank you so much, and WELCOME!!!
***the experiment was about kids. Youre viewing the entire experiment with the view and wisdom of an adult, which doesnt work.***
Your point is very well taken. However, having worked with kids of all ages in both an educational capacity and as a parent, I would assert that little ones...even children as young as two or three or four (and younger)...are already very much being forged by the lives and worlds around them. They are radically different individuals rising from extremely disparate backgrounds. Thus supporting my flimsy argument about the studies (which I freely admit is more opinion than fact based).
When you say "reader reaction is here", i think most would expect to see an article where a reader has submitted an early review... when in reality its more like "reader reaction will be here in approximately 24 hours".
I mean its not terribly unusual for someone to write in having caught an early screening of who....
If as in the teasers the doctor very slowly and tentatively approaches the ominous room marked simply 11.
He reaches out toward the handle, hesitates at what may lie behind, but he can't ignore it. It's his door, his room, number 11. His greatest fear. HE MUST LOOK. The cannot NOT look. He sharply clutches the handle, and hisses to himself one word...
The door is locked. It won't budge. Not an inch. He jars and shakes the door in frustration and anger, until he collapses to the ground with his back to the door and sighs deeply. Warily the doctor smiles to himself, with a small hint of arrogance and whispers to himself
WELL OLD MAN, MAYBE WE HAVE SEEN IT ALL. ALL OF TIME AND ALL THE EVILS AND...DARKNESS IN THE UNIVERSE. WE'VE SEEN IT RISE AND CORRUPT AND RUIN...AND THEN WATCH IT ALL BURN TO THE GROUND. WHAT R U GOING TO SHOW ME IN THIS ROOM. WHAT COULD YOU SHOW ME THAT I HAVE NOT ALREADY STARED IN FACE AND LIVED.... OR RAN? WHAT HAVE I LEFT TO FEAR...
As the doctor sits in his empty corridor against the door that won't open a silence falls upon him. Not a sound and not a creak and not whisper or soul can be heard.
When the doctor hears a sharpe rusted squeak of the handle turning. He leaps to his feet, armed with his sonic and on his heels to face the monster... His eyes fix on number 11's handle, to discover it has not moved.
Yet the grinding, clicking, inevitable turning sound persists, until the doctor's eyes are drawn to it's true source....
On the door marked 12.
P.s. I love dr who and I've been drinking. :)
Ep 10 was a cracker of an unusual type, but this one's just as good for my money. Different kind of episode, but a really well handled, characterful and thoughtful episode that gets better and better every time you watch it. Nick Hurran does another superb job, while Toby W turns in easily his best Who script to date. Last fifteen minutes in particular are superb and nicely lead into ep 12, which is also a flipping marvelous slice of Who.
Tell me, buddy...
Which packaged sandwich do I buy tomorrow? I always spend about three minutes trying to make my mind up when I do my grocery shopping on Saturdays.
Let me know in advance and save me some time.
Calling someone "fucking insane" - no matter how light-hearted the context may be - doesn't float particularly well in Docbacks.
Please choose wording carefully next time...noting the Code of Conduct posted immediately above the message boards.
I'm bored too, but it's premiere day on cartoon network... :) So New eps of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Ben 10, and The Clone Wars :)
and Haven on SyFy... I've watched every ep so far, and I'm still not sure if I actually like the show.... but it's leaps and bounds superior over alphas....
Alphas is just another soon to be canceled show of people with powers.... shall we name a few of the most recent ones? No Ordinary Family, Heroes, the 4400, Painkiller Jane, am I missing any?
BSG had Feldercarb, and Frak
Farscape had Frell
Fantastic Mr. Fox had the word cuss...
That's what I can come up with off the top of my head....
Does Doctor Who have one? If so what is it? If not, let's see if we can come up with one....
5 daleks isn't an army, more like a squad, or a team.... I'd say you need at least 50 to make it an army.
Studies, statistics... were the kids tested prior to watching the cartoons? what about a group of kids that didn't watch any cartoons.... also to quote mark twain aka Samuel Clemens... "There are 3 kinds of lies.... Lies, White/damned lies, and statistics"
There are always multiple projects in development that are similar to other projects.... aren't there Volcane/Dante's Peak Armeggeddon/Deep Impact, aren't there 2 different Snow White movies being made, what about 2 different Beauty and the Beast tv series being developed, and there are also 2 separate jekyll and hyde tv shows at various stages of production.....
As for an Americanized modern Sherlock Holmes..... Well... don't we already have House....?
I'd say about one, haha. I keep remembering the "Dalek" episode with Rose and Eccleston-Doc dropping into a museum run by that crazy Texan guy. And when the Dalek got loose. . .well, let's just say it gave the T-800 a run for its money. It was weakened and tortured for who knows how long, but it still took out an entire contingent of paramilitary personnel. Good times.
I have pictures of my Doctor Who collectibles posted on my Facebook page, and I've found that a lot of parents with kids let their kids entertain themselves looking through my toys. A week or two ago one of the kids had his mom ask how many Daleks I had, so I counted them: 47 in the Character Options five inch scale, 8 of the Lego-like figures, and a bunch of them in a small army man size. I haven't counted my Cybermen, but I do consider them an army spanning various eras.
>>>There was a fun pilot for a modern day Sherlock Holmes story back in 1987 that I wish had been turned into a series. It had a silly premise but worked as a Time After Time type of romantic thriller. Watson had used cryogenics to freeze a dying Sherlock. The great detective was then thawed out in modern days and teamed with Watson's granddaughter who helped him adapt to this strange new world.
I saw this pilot. And I swear to god its almost a shot for shot version of the TV Movie LOL. Not sure which came first but the similarities were palpable.
'The Girl Who Waited' is the highlight of the last two seasons for me. Looking forward to tonight though...
Is it just me, or has the second half of this spilt season been significantly better than the first? Seems so...
I remember staying up late with my parents on Friday or Saturday nights in the early 80s and watching a Sherlock Holmes series that (if I am remembering correctly) was basically in the half-hour sit-com format. I believe it was British and it was humorous (especially making fun of the bumbling Lastrade). Does anyone remember this show? I haven't seen anything about it since, and can't even seem to find it on imdb!
as to whether there were / are two Doctors, bow ties not withstanding.
My prediction is, as always, that it'll be far far simpler than the theories some Docbackers have come up with.
As for this particular episode... I am expecting there to be continued fall out from last week, a cap to Rory's *Then I don't want to travel with you!!* and a nice lead in to the final two episodes.
I've already said I think the last two episodes will essentially be Matt's farewell, like Tennant going to all of his previous companions. And that'll be why Matt turns up at Craig's house. To essentially say a good bye, before he heads off to his death.
I can't wait. It looks sooo good right now.
Blimey, does no-one remember the Professor Challenger stories these days?There's definitely namechecks to them in the works of Michael Crighton. Mind you, I think it's fair to say they're not as well known as Sherlock, and I take your point about ACD having crawled back to his most famous work. Ha - the writer who was typecast...
I don't know what we will see, but my guess, is we might see the pyramid tonight. And some "gods" tonight.
I think we might even get an explanation for the eye patch tonight.
But I don't think we will get anything on how the Doctor's solves his dilemma tonight. Oh, there might be clues if we look backward, but I don't think anything direct will be seen.
I think you're right, it almost certainly *will* be simpler than a number of the theories being bandied about, but we can dream, can't we? Ahahaha. But you might have a point with the big goodbye, but doesn't that really only happen when the Doc is about to regenerate, which we know isn't going to happen here?
And with regards to everyone on Darvill's beard - I doubt we're going to see it. The history of Who is awash with the subtext that facial hair = evil, even that girly, hippy locks = morally ambiguous. In fact, in these regards, the whole show is wildly conservative. My god - I would be even worse than the black guardian should I ever show up in an episode...
Brechtsky - what you might have been expecting *is* how the Docbacks started, but they rapidly evolved into something a lot more messy; as you can see, there's normally a hundred posts or so before more than one person posts a review of the episode (and that first person is invariably huskedu2 - well done him (or her).) And that's the way we like it! I think.
Also, and to Merrick, re: Creepythinmanlives - if he was aiming that comment at one of the posters here then, y'know, it was probably true... :) I presume you deleted his comment from the Docbacks? Anyway, isn't that guy meant to be going off for drinks and fisticuffs with one of the producers of the Transformers movies? That's what I read. Or should I *gasp* not believe what I read on t'internet?
I think I'm more than spoken for on theories at this point. But for TGC I expect something fairly self-contained up till the final 10 minutes, then bogglingly big arc stuff leading into the final 2 parter.
I hope the Indian girl does find a way to call the Doc next series. After the Ponds and River make their exit - which I expect in the early part of next year - a truly competent companion would be extremely refreshing.
Plus she's got presence and range. I can imagine the Doc underestimating her and getting properly steamrolled.
And well, looks like the Ponds might not be in it. Which I think is good. The Doctor needs time alone. If what I hear -- that they will become a base of operations for the Doctor is to come about, this is a good way to continue their story and to have the Doctor also have new stories without them. I hope so!
Until I see tonight's episode, I wanted to comment on last week's. It seems to me that Amy would have been exposed to thousands of different bacteria during the 36 years that she waited and would have had developed immunities to them. Just thinking that the hand-bots cure/treatment might not have killed her after the Tardis left. My son, who is 10, is starting to do scary make up really appreciated how well done the older Amy looked.
I've been a fan since the beginning of the Tom Baker Doctor and, even though the entire budget for special effects looked like 400 dollars for the whole season then, I've always enjoyed the stories.
Yeah, though I DO like the Ponds, I miss Donna.
It's funny that I found her pretty abrasive at first, and by the end of that season I absolutely loved her character and was heartbroken for her when the Doctor had to erase her memories of their time together.
In AGMGTW when she reveals to Rory that she has returned from a trip with the doctor and he asks if there's two of them, the old
That's a whole other birthday...
When I first heard it I thought, Moffat! That's a bit post watershed with your dirty doctor threesome! And sorry if it has been brought up before but I'd like to think now it's actually Moffat cheekily breaking the fourth wall, and that rivers not referring to her birthday but the 50th anniversary. Where there will be several doctors perhaps. Hmmmm. Dirty doctor.
Unless your Daleks are all from the same era/lineage, you will not have an army, you'll have a civil war. Xenophibic, genocidal creatures don't tend to handle variety within their own species very well.
The thing about Sherlock is that because the original stories are now in the public domain, everyone wants to own their own version of the mythology. Personally I think it's wonderful - the more the better. The good retellings will endure, others will pass into obscurity.
The hotel seems to create a personal hell for each visitor, but isn't that what the people running the Teselecta were saying they did for war criminals? (the major ones - the minor ones it just being politely executed)
I like that the DALEKS have been semi retired, I prefer new creatures and stories that keep you guessing rather than ticking fan boxes with old school references and enemies.
I hope the DALEKS/CYBERMEN (that I think have been pretty weak in nu who) don't feature tonight in any fear rooms
Same with Cybermen. I think its wishful thinking. I do think its good that we have only had one Dalek episode so far with Matt Smith. In fact, I kinda hope we don't really see Daleks in season 7. If they wanna bring them back, do it in season 8. Furthermore, WHEN will we see something with the old Cybermen, instead of the alternate universe Cybermen? MOV?
I've often said it on here before, I really wish they would dig out some of the old villains, such as Zygons, The Yetis, Sea Devils (Sullirians don't count to me, they are just cousins), the Celestial toymaker, heck, I think the Kinda snake could come back and be cool to use. For that matter, I don't totally understand why they don't just develop a new race that could be cool to see used again, instead of here this week and not to be heard of again? Look, I'm not saying rely on the old creatures and villains all the time, but I do think it would be cool to re visit, ya know?
I mean, yes, they are marginally more xenophobic and genocidal than Nazis.
But I don't think anyone is afraid of them any more. I don't think anyone has been afraid of them since this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q
Even Davros is a bit naff nowadays too. The Ecclestone Dalek episode was genuinely frightening because Ecclestone sold it, but Tennant never did and the one Smith Dalek ep was very much a return to the Milligan.
I'd like to see Daleks do things that are credibly terrifying. I want them to be seen as the Doctor sees them, as the ultimate evil worth killing your own race to destroy.
That's what Ecclestone sold. Daleks like Christopher's Tripods or the very original horror they are obviously borrowed from - Wells's Martian War Machines.
How would you go about this?
I'm all for developing some new race, and, by all signs, we're going to be stuck playing games with the question and the silents for a while, so I'm pretty sure we'll get more in-depth with those army guys, the headless monks, the area 51 silents, etc.
I suspect that actually creating a viable villain with legs is a tough thing to do - Spider-Man has been around almost as long as I have, has had multiple titles out every month, and over all that time they've only managed to collect a handful of time-tested bad guys.
The problem with baddies is, once you stamp them, they never get any better with repetition - you've already established them, so there you go. A farting alien is a farting alien; a space pimple on the ceiling is a space pimple on the ceiling. You get one chance to create 'em, and since the show is all about The Doctor, I think most writers are more intent on creating tight spots for him than designing a good architect of tight spots.
~Hey! Lets put the TARDIS crew on deadly game shows!!!"~
~Uh...welll...yeah, ok. That could be cool... Why?~
~I dunno... Oh! So the Daleks can eat the losers!~
~So the Daleks are the bad guys?~
~No - its somebody working with 'em. An alien with a tv station.~
So, we get space pimple.
As to oldie villains - All of 'em - it's a dream of old fanboys, but not practical, unless you're willing to accept only the remotest mention of previous encounters. The vast majority of DWs audience has never heard of the Vygons, and have no desire to see BBC goofs in rubber suits from the seventies to get caught up to their mythology. And the result might be more jarring to you than refreshing - see Star Trek's Gorn -
GADS!! The Daleks have become a talky bunch of losers. We have to yak at each other, yak at The Doctor, yak at the people they're gonna kill...
Blah, Blah, Blah.
Shut them up. Don't the Daleks have Wifi? Explain nothing, stop yelling EXTERMINATE, and exterminate, already.
You can't have the Daleks do what Daleks can here. You can't make them scary on Earth.
Take 'em elsewhere. Where they can Absolutely Decimate the population. Not just zap five army guys. Run them over a planet like a SILENT plague. Show what they are capable of, instead of telling us about what they could do if they weren't so busy running their mouths.
Is a season of the Doctor stuck, without the TARDIS, in the middle of the Dalek Empire. He has to use other means to get around (hide on ships, etc) until he finds where his TARDIS has been taken (stolen by pirates?). See the brutality of the Daleks, and the fear of the Daleks on other planets on the edge of the empire (so they don't have to be in every episode).
...the Daleks were a credible threat in the Matt Smith episode, after being somewhat ridiculous and incompetent in the RTD era. In the RTD era, you had them screwing up repeatedly, making silly alliances, bickering with Cybermen, until they were pretty much a caricature of what they used to be.
But with Victory of the Daleks, you see the Daleks actually WIN against the Doctor. They're cunning--willing to invest in an elaborate, long term plan and play the role of servants in order to activate the progenitor device. They're also ruthless--the new Apple Daleks immediately kill their forbears and hold the entire earth hostage with their android explosive.
And finally, you see them get away. The Doctor, for all his brilliance, for all his improvisation, for all his experience, can't manage to stop them. And when has the Doctor really lost on that large of a scale before?
Granted, Eccleston in the Dalek episode was 100x more convincing than Victory of the Daleks. But the Matt Smith episode was actually not that terrible. I mean, aside from the fact that the new design being inspired from Apple is just a bit silly.
But, at the moment, there is no Dalek empire; they're just rebuilding. So now is the perfect time to see the start of it.
Like the first Borg episodes - implacable. unstoppable. Not only can't the Doctor save the planet, he can't save the people, and he can barely save himself. The last shot, a REAL army of daleks - Thousands of them - surrounding the dissapearing TARDIS, then a pull back to space, a hundred troop ships, the planet a blazing husk.
That will put starch in your shorts for the Daleks again.
If it is in the height of the Dalek Empire, when they are still expanding. You can see them decimate planets, see them enslave others (ala Dalek Invasion of Earth). Do both. But I think showing them in control and not just taking it is important.
I would even have a story where the Doctor _must_ help the Daleks preserve the empire, knowing if he doesn't, worse would come through.
To be fair, the Daleks have winged the Doctor twice on sight in the new series.
But I tend to see his the Doctor's ability to walk into a room and strike up a conversation as a Time Lord's hightened sensitivity to how the future is likely to play out. It's like an expert naturalist having more confidence about when it is and isn't safe to approach a wild animal.
Daleks exist. Victory of the Daleks set up a stage to create a new Dalek Empire. Even in the first season, we saw how quick they can build up a fleet -- and this with the Emperor Dalek. It doesn't take un-timelock, it just takes the Daleks which are out now to do a Power of the Daleks...
If the Daleks are to be feared as the perfect, unstoppable, implacable destructive enemy, being their greatest foe and sitting down for a chat with 'em every episode dulls that edge - it's like Jaws coming over to your dock for a daily feeding of herring.
WHAM!! Your door explodes, and in comes an Imperial stormtrooper! You are the Empire's biggest enemy! You don't sit around and offer him a muffin, or wait to see if he's going to tell you something interesting.
Sitting around and listening to the Doctor has never gone well for the Daleks, and there are Daleks who have survived to tell each one of those tales.
Somewhere, in the vastness of space, there are thousands of Daleks wishing they had hands, so they could facepalm every time one of them holds their fire on the guy.
I would appreciate both as a nod to the length of the series and a point of bringing the horror of Dalek capabilities and viciousness to the fore.
Have the Daleks seeking out and destroying utterly previous companions of the Doctor on Earth - as a point to draw the Doctor back to Earth and make him suffer/angry.
Have it be a ruse to keep him from somewhere/somewhen else where they are also making trouble, and force him to make a decision about what is more important: stopping the Daleks there, or stopping the Daleks on Earth from predating on his past companions?
Who's still around is a bit of a problem, and it is probably far too crass to make any connection to Sarah Jane Smith for such a story.
If for no other reason then, if they can really replicate that quickly, the Daleks would be Too big a threat - you couldn't slow them enough to even dent their progress, and they'd take over the universe in a matter of just a couple of years.
Dramatically, I'd prefer to see them slower, because they would be such an overarching threat we wouldn't have time to deal with anything else.
... Back in the 80's. I think I really dug the show, since I remember that much (not being sarcastic for once).
I noticed Dr Who is on Netflix streaming... a whole bunch of seasons, I think starting in 2005.
Is that a good Dr Who show to watch?
All I know about the show is that he's a scientist that fights aliens, etc.... and that every so-often the show is re-booted with a new set of actors.
But anyway... question is, is the 2005 show a good one to watch?
You really need a truckload of backstory to really get the gist, and up and running... fortunately, you can cliff notes what you need from the wiki here, just to get your feet on the ground:
From there - and this is my opinion - hit seasons 5-6 first. Ordinarily, people suggest you start from 2005, but to me it's like the first season of Star Trek TNG - if you don't have some tolerance built from love, some of the massive stupid in there will turn you away.
That being said, IF you can just roll with the stupid, KNOWING it gets better, then starting with 2005 is probably best; a lot of stuff comes back in later episodes, and there are a couple of really nice episodes salted through the series you wouldn't want to miss.
Maybe the smart thing is to catch some of the gems first, and then slog in for the long term after you've got the bug.
See below for a list of classics to start with - I know the Docbackers will fill in the blanks.
Yes. Dr. Who is an amazing show. I know a lot of people in here seem to criticize everything about the show, but they didn't enjoy and watch it, they wouldn't be here at all. It's science fiction at its best. Exploration, aliens, time travel, robots, and just good old fun. It has its comedy episodes and its dramatic episodes. I have laughed so hard watching it and I have cried watching it. If I was going to recommend a science fiction show to anyone, Dr. Who would be it.
FYI, there are no real reboots in Dr. Who. It's a continuing story since it first aired way back when. The Doctor, when he dies, regenerates into a new version of the Doctor. Thus the cast can rotate but keep the same premise and past story lines.
And the premise is simple. An alien who travels in time and space, usually with a female human. Obviously there's more to it but that's the basis for the entire show.
Actually there have been 2 Matt Smith stories with Daleks, not 1. The Pandorica Opens had the Daleks as part of the alliance, which led to the Stone Dalek in The Big Bang.
The Stone Daleks were a nice touch. That one also believed in exterminating the Doctor rather than just talking to him.
The 2005 show is a good one to go with. If you want to watch the new Doctor Who series, you really have two choices of where to start. You can start with Rose (the 1st episode of Season 1 in 2005) and go though in order starting with Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor, then going through David Tennant and finally Matt Smith.
Your other choice would be to start with The Eleventh Hour, the first episode of Season 5. This was the first episode with Matt Smith as the Doctor. Merrick started like this and is now hosting the Docbacks. You might find that you want to dip into some of the past stories if you start with Matt Smith - the Season 4 story Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead is certainly one you should watch before watching any of season 6 as it introduces the character of River Song to the audience. She shows up in 2 stories in season 5 and 3 stories so far in season 6.
The rebooting is actually called regeneration in the series. It lets them bring in a new actor to play the part. Season 1 in 2005 is actually a good way to get reintroduced; they'll cover the basics that you'd need to know by the end of the season for going on into future seasons.
You could always go with some random older stories too - I'm not sure if they have any of those streaming on Netflix. If you can find City of Death, that's a fun one with Tom Baker to start with. It's the one from the classic series times that is closest in tone to what has been produced since 2005 (though, really, you can just look at all of Tom Baker's work and see echoes of it now).
This place is lousy with SILENCE.....
Where is everyone.... Aren't there usually 200 more posts to read by now?
but it's only 7 hours, 13 minutes till a new ep of Doctor who in my time zone.... I think I get the east coast feed of BBCA.. I'm in California... So I'm guessing folks in the good old UK have already seen the ep or are at least just about to see the ep?
where's sam jacksons wig, or michael jacksons ghost.
where's Everybody else?
This is crazyness I say
Echoing comments made above, but I would recommend strongly watching tonight and see if you like it - and if you want the really quick primer on whats going on, you might have a few of the "Best of Doctor Who" episodes available to you... Best of the Doctor will give you the really quick Cliff's notes on what is up with Matt Smith as the Doctor. And if you have the time, "Best of the Companions" and "Best of the Monsters" aren't bad either.
That gets up to speed with much of what is going on with the current doctor, anyway.
Maybe Moffat uses this as a chance to address the number of regenerations the Doctor has.
The Doctor looks down the hall, and a man with emerges from room 156. He has strange hair, and (to quote someone who would know) enough tawdry quirks to open a tawdry quirk shop. He sees the Doctor down the hall and says, 'Hello Doctor, I'm the Doctor.'
I've been shadowing you all since the Docbacks started.. I really enjoy the various banter in here and the theory crafting. As an American, I don't see the show til later but I don't mind spoilers so I usually pop in here just after it airs in the UK to see what people thought of the episodes.
For some background on my taste. I've never really watched the Classic Dr. Who. So my experience is just the recent but I've seen everything. I'm fan of all three doctors so far, in various ways. Eccelston for that cool, strangeness he brought. Tennant for the passion (and because damn he's hot) and Smith, because you can just tell he loves playing the Doctor. Basically, as long as I'm entertained, I enjoy the show and I try not to nitpick every last aspect.
If you have netflix, there are quite a few episodes of Doctor Who available for streaming...
My favorite episodes of the 2005-Present Doctor Who series are listed below in no particular order.
2. Love & Monsters
3. The Girl in the Fireplace
4. Silence in the Library
5. Forest of the Dead
6. The Lodger
7. Vincent and the Doctor
8. The Eleventh Hour
9. A Christmas Carol
10. "Time" and "Space"
11. The Doctor's Wife
12. The Impossible Astronaut
12. The Day of the Moon
Whether you start fresh from the 1st season of the 2005 Who series, or start from the 5th season (Matt Smith's run), really depends on your tolerance level of bad episodes.
S5/Matt Smith's run generally has a higher level of enjoyment/quality than the 1st four seasons of the 2005 series (commonly called the RTD era, since Russel T Davies was the showrunner for those respective seasons). The RTD era has its fair share of gems, but it also happens to be rife with really awful, cheesy episodes that would make any Who fan shudder.
When I was in your position a few months back and knowing nothing about Who, I saw the S6 trailer, and it was so epic that I decided to start right from 2005 S1's 1st episode and slogged through 5 seasons in one go. You may or may not be as patient as me, so it's really up to you.
If you're on the fence about it, the best thing to do IMO would be to start from S5/Matt Smith. And while you're watching it, you can pick up some of the older episodes of the RTD era that are pretty solid, and the generally-agreed upon list is as follows:
S1: Dalek, (maybe Father's Day), The Empty Child + The Doctor Dances
S2: Girl in the Fireplace, The Impossible Planet + The Satan Pit,
S3: (maybe 42), Human Nature + Family of Blood, Blink
S4: Silence in the Library + Forest of the Dead, Midnight
Post S4 Specials: Water of Mars, The End of Time 1 + 2
Just to let you know, Blink as well as Silence in the Library + Fores of the Dead is pretty mindblowing. They also tie in with S5-6, so be sure to watch those before you get to the 3rd episode of S5.
Hope that helps. :)
Anyway, I had only one major problem with the script, and a couple of minor ones.
The major one - You could tell very easily that this was cut to ribbons. Possibly like a two-parter cut down to one part. So many dangling lines of dialog indicated things we didn't see, such as when they mention to Rory *that's why it kept showing you ways out*. Which we saw exactly one of, and which we never saw Rory talk to anyone about.
That sort of thing.
I'd love to read the unabridged unedited un-cut-down script, to see what the hell he was getting at. Because as it stands right now it's not at all clear.
I'll try to make it thru from the start of 2005... if I get too bogged down in poor episodes, I'll start skipping around to the ones mentioned here as the best.
I've copied/pasted all your suggestions into an email I sent myself, so I won't lose track of them all... so your effort won't be wasted. :)
Can't be gone. Would have made a bigger deal of it. Annoyed that we didn't see inside the doctors room. I think the obvious dramatic welly-up music is one of the only faults of the moffat-who era, lingering on from past series. I did like the whole simulated holodeck effect though.
a dying TARDIS.
That's my honest opinion. He's not scared of his own death and the Cloister Bell ringing is done in times of great danger, presumably to Sexy herself.
But it was one of those things they can't show you in the show- they have to leave it unspoken. Like the Doctor's name.
Well, that was interesting. It wasn’t a season highlight for me and it certainly wasn’t a bad episode – probably somewhere in the middle, above the pirates one. There were some good ideas in there and it reminded me a little of some of the Seventh Doctor stories where something really creepy and odd would happen, and The Doctor would spend most of his time trying to work it out (in addition; the breaking of Amy’s faith was straight out of my Seventh doctor story - The Curse Of Fenric - although it was much more gentle here). I’ll probably rewatch it at some point and re-evaluate. Oh, and I was pleased by the Nimon reference!
Emotional episode, smart script, surprise ending... but I still find the resolution of their kidnapped baby to be... well, unresolved. Their kid was still stolen from them, they've still missed out on parenthood, yet seem not to mind. Just because they know she grows (regenerates) up okay, they've still been robbed of seeing her grow up!
Am I missing something? This all seems odd.
Matt Smith on top form ---very good script and with a few more obvious portents in this for whats to come.
I'm wondering if the Doctor is going to do some major changes to the timeline which will result in Rory's death and is probably and explanation of the war with the Doctor.
A bit like the the theme in the girl who waited, perhaps the war is to do with other folk, like old Amy, not wanting to never have existed.
Just love the whole Matt Smith schtick to bits.
that the contents of the Doctors room will be hotly debated, but he didn't confess anything about the contents themselves. All we have is the Doctors comment *Of course. Who else?*
Some dark version of himself, one might think.
Yeah, that was ok ... Focus was firmly on the Doctor for the most part, so that always gets my vote in the era of the 'Amy & Rory' show ...
Still, it was nothing special and I feel the series needs a stunning finish to avoid being a bland disappointment.
And my god does Beth Willis look like she'd rather be anywhere else. Unmoving. Slow blinking. No expression. Not looking at her fellow producer or the camera. If it wasn't for the monotonous blinking, you'd swear she was a bored/angry waxwork.
Or in fact since The Moff and Matt took over. Don't understand the lukewarm reception.
It has been one of the first episodes in a while which I watched with increasing excitement and without any reservations (no hotel pun intended). Cracking dialogue, great direction, loads of ideas on show, everyone had a bit of the limelight but the Doctor had the lion's share and Matt had great fun with it.
I loved Rita (sic?) and was hoping we were seeing a future companion.... sadly not though.
It slowed down a bit at the end but the unexpected departures more than made up for it.
Next week looks fun but I wasn't that much of a fan of The Lodger and definitely not a fan of James Corden, I'll be very angry if they try to bring him on board as a full time companion!
Different to last week, peculiar and not without a few bits of rushing the story or overcraming the plot. But I thought it was really imaginative, creepy and quite poignant in the end.
However the ending when we say goodbye, I myself have docbacked in the last few weeks that the moment this happens especially after the amount these characters have grown together that this moment should be a bang, not a whimper, an opportunity not to be missed, to be painful and fraught and finite. Yet it felt like an afterthought following a breakneck ep.
Anyway next week looks somewhat... To put it delicately, potentially pretty rubbish. Really hope not.
When Karen was being interviewed she said that when the TARDIS leaves, that's the moment when Amys faith in the Doctor is restored. I liked that.
They made a point in the script read, of saying that the Doctor in the TARDIS was hit by sadness like a wave when Amy's absence hits him. And a sob escapes him.
I think the Director on the day realised that wouldn't work. Nicely ignored stage direction there.
your comment: Some dark version of himself, one might think.
It was room 11 after all.
Not seen the last of the Ponds/Williams (too trite an ending for Rory, at least, and the events at Lake Silencio still have to come to a conclusion).
...infact it really was something of a wasted opportunity. Good concepts, a big idea behind it all, creepy setting and atmosphere... and little else. Bit of a shame really. But still 100x better than anything else on TV this week.
felt a bit rushed.
As has been said above, the Ponds' attitude to the whole Mels/River situation just really bothers me - They would surely care more.
I've enjoyed each Moffat ep this series (I stubbornly refuse to say season), but have still been disappointed with each one. SO much going on (which is good), but so much unexplained - and I think I've lost faith in Moffat's ability to resolve it all in a satisfactory way. After all, he's just got a (presumably) 45 minute finale to do so.
I think the "non-arc" episodes have been generally strong this series (barring pirate nonsense). If someone told me a year ago that Tom "Age of fucking steel" MacRae would write an episode that was better than any of Moffat's season six eps, I'd have called them crazy. But he went and did it.
Really enjoyed it tonight, the quality of the standalone episodes is definitely improving, much more like classic Who. And a great ending imho. Can't say I'm looking forward to the return of Corden but I'll keep an open mind.
I imagine it's possible that it could be tied into the arc somehow, e.g. in a flashback during the finale - but I'm going with the idea that it was Amy and Rory in there. Whatever it was gave the Doctor the final push to decide to leave them.
The Cloister Bell was the hint that there was danger afoot. But the whole scene was vague enough that really, it could have been anything in there.
Sept. 17, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST
Good episode. It shows why doctor who is so good and long lasting,as this episode was totally different to all others of this series. That's the great thing, who is an eclectic mix of styles, stories and tastes.
I enjoyed it. Liked Walliams. Thought the ending (no spoilers) was good, in the knowledge that they will likely be back in an episodes time to round off silencio and attend the wedding of their daughter.
Even looking forwards to next week. A bit of light relief before the finale. Always do like the episodes that are different. I know I'll get kicked for this, but I really enjoyed "Gods and Monsters". Taking it for what it was, light relief, it was fun. And I think next weeks will be similar to the lodger, which again, i enjoyed.
So, bring on corden, bring on the finale, and then comes the waiting to the Xmas special.
Good episode. It shows why doctor who is so good and long lasting,as this episode was totally different to all others of this series. That's the great thing, who is an eclectic mix of styles, stories and tastes.
I enjoyed it. Liked Walliams. Thought the ending (no spoilers) was good, in the knowledge that they will likely be back in an episodes time to round off silencio and attend the wedding of their daughter.
Even looking forwards to next week. A bit of light relief before the finale. Always do like the episodes that are different. I know I'll get kicked for this, but I really enjoyed "Gods and Monsters". Taking it for what it was, light relief, it was fun. And I think next weeks will be similar to the lodger, which again, i enjoyed.
So, bring on corden, bring on the finale, and then comes the waiting to the Xmas special.
Just want to say welcome big man! Like you I've been a fan for a long time and have just begun to share my fandom wi this community. Great to hear the show brings real family entertainment to your home, I watch it with younger cousins who r just fascinated with that kind of scary off limits kind of program. Like when I was a kid and my older cousins (when I was like 7) would sneak a VHS copy of terminator or gremlins into the house and watch with me.
I was surprised at the way it ended, (Liked the man said, no spoilers!). I liked the old-Who reference, wish we had more of them. And, hooray, it's the return of the Cybermen, my personal favorite Who villian. After everyone has seen it, I may ask some questions that need to be asked.
No worries, the shining I never even understood as a kid, only discovered in my teens. The one a just couldn't handle as a kid, predator. Thank god for arnie.
Btw ur kids a legend for the angels thing. Proper big brother stuff. Lol.
And the ending certainly surprised, although I'm not falling for it for a second, Moff-man! I'm sure THAT would happen for real at the end of an epic two parter rather than a whimper in a mid-seasoner.
Although maybe you are double-bluffing and you are defying story-telling conventions that we so often expect...
Gah! Now I'm confused! >-<
Rory: Sorry, what?
River: The Doctor numbered the envelopes. You got Three, I was Two. Mr. Delaware was Four.
River: So. Where's One? Number One. Who did the Doctor trust the most?
(Nurse, Looking at the clown) Does he have anything to do with you....?
The Doctor, looking in his room: Of course. Who else?
The Doctor: Every time someone was confronted by their most fundamental fear, they fall back on their fundamental faith.
The Doctor: I'm not a hero. I really am just a madman in a box. And its time we saw each other as we really are.
It didn't Just want Amy. It wanted The Doctor. But it starved when Amy gave up faith.
Because the Doctor had already lost faith in himself.
I suspect the invitation Amy and Rory receive in The Impossible Astronaut is exactly a mirror of receiving the invite for River's wedding, and both events will happen to draw them in.
Terribly curious to see where season 7 goes.
..I must agree about Love and Monsters, that episode is like a sweet, nice kid that gets beat up every day at school just because he's different. I don't think it's one of the best episodes, but it's one of the better ones. It hits all of the right nostalgia buttons in me (as much as that bothers me usually) with the ELO music, as well as being very moving and highly unusual. I think it has become a punching bag for those who already disliked RTD.
I recall in one of the old series, I think it was a Tom Baker one, when they went back through the old faces of the Doctor, and they showed a couple BEFORE William Hartnell.
Could it be possible that this is the Doctor's second lot of 12 regenerations?
I do recall other episodes where Time Lords were granted a second lot of regenerations. It would also fit with continuity of the Doctor counting his current regenerations.
I didn't see anyone comment on it (maybe I missed it), but the say the virtual reality rolled back was the same as the way the Teselecta changed how it looked.
I know somebody mentioned Hell, and this might have been (one of) the prison(s) where they 'give them hell'. It wouldn't surprise me to see this tying in with all that later on.
The pre-Hartnell Doctors were seen in The Brain of Morbius.
And, it would be interesting if somehow we find out they *were* previous regenerations but they weren't the Doctor per se. Or (going way out with some radical idea) the Doctor's lifepath is something that never truly begins or ends (despite Lake Silencio) and is more like a Moebius strip. Those weren't pre-Hartnell regenerations, they looped back to the final regeneration and were working backwards from there. The Doctor's mere existence is a wibbly wobbly timey wimey paradox.
It could be the parallel Earth with Rose and the handDoc all got converted to Cybermen, and now the Cybermen are taking a planet out for a test drive, busting through the walls separating universes.
Or, it could actually be a post-Big Bang Mondas.
-You will be like us
-No I won't, I could never do that, you don't look like hat people, I couldn't stand not being a hat person.
- Those who are not converted will be deleted.
-Hmm, not sure I like that option either, it seems a bit final. Mind you, I've been deleted from the universe before and have come bouncing back. It gave me a chance to catch up on my beauty rest. But I do have to ask, why is Mondas coming now? Weren't you supposed to be showing up in 1986?
-There were...difficulties. When the universe rebooted the orbit of Mondas was changed slightly. We were also stuck in traffic. It took an extra 25 years to show up.
-Blimey, 25 whole years, that's one entire Nemesis orbit. Mind you, I'm not keeping that around here now, so if you're looking for that I'm sorry but you'll have to be disappointed.
Didn't the first and sixth Doctor play a small role in stopping that? I don't remember if "The Tenth Planet" and "Attack Of The Cybermen" were happening at the same time, but, I think the actions of the Doctor in both stopped and/or destroyed Mondas. But, like you said, in the rebooted Universe, it could be back, I hope.
Especially loved the "Praise Him" text flashing up like a subliminal.
Also loved that the response to fear, faith was what the creature fed on. A very nice twist
And once again, the supporting characters were well drawn, I didn't want to see any of them die....
This second half of the season is 4 for 4 with me...
Can't wait 'til next week.
The First Doctor was involved when Mondas destroyed itself (ironically, it seemed that Mondas' destruction would have happened even if the Doctor wasn't involved). the 6th Doctor helped prevent future Cybermen from changing it. So, if it actually is Mondas, time must have been rewritten.
Now, like I said, it could be the other Earth. Another possibility is that it could be Planet 14, which got referenced in some Troughton Cybermen episodes.
actually, thinking back on it, they really shouldn't have included the bit with the Weeping Angels. Moffat seems to have forgotten the rule he established in Flesh and Stone/Time of the Angels:
The image of an Angel IS an Angel.
They should have been ripped to bits or sent back in time.
1) The Dream Lord (or, if you prefer, the Valeyard). I would think there's some fear of becoming them, but honestly I think there's more self-loathing involved than fear when it comes to them
2) The Sad Clown. The Doctor is scared that this is what he'll end up being - this might also be why he was disillusioned when he saw it.
3) A dying TARDIS. The cloister bell sound seems to be an indication that this could be the right answer, and I think at this point his biggest fear would be the TARDIS completely dying and truly leaving him alone.
No, it wasn't a transition warning - the birdsong sounds were the transition. The cloister bell sound is what the TARDIS makes when it is in danger (it was ringing in The Eleventh Hour also), and was going off in the dream reality where the TARDIS was going to be destroyed running into a cold star.
4) The Doctor sees the Doctor - not as a sad clown or as the Dream Lord, but just as himself. When Matt Smith approaches room 11, his face is reflected in the number plate.
Of course, it it turns out that the Doctor that's running around now is a double, then it could be indicative of the duplicate being afraid of running into the 'real' Doctor.
And why bring up a duplicate Doctor here? They showed the Doctor eating apples. Either his taste buds settled in a while after regenerating, or something's changed with him. The apple scene might actually be a less subtle clue to things than stuff like cards shifting values or bow tie colors changing.
Planet 14 mentioned in The Invasion as being a planet that they had encounted the Doctor on in an untelevised adventure. Everyone presumed that it was the Troughton Doctor that was encountered, but we might find out here that the Cybermen encountered the Matt Smith Doctor there. And maybe the Troughton Doctor at some point.
I'm afraid I'm with history101 here. Ep. started very well and if it hadn't been spoiled by the BBC clips (which I'm hereby swearing off) I'd have been still happier.
But the ending was kind of SJA. Sure, a faith eater rather than a fear eater. But didn't do much for me at all and lowered my expectations about the final 2 eps.
Plus I hate that Rita went and Gibbis stayed. I really thought she showed promise and I gather the only reason for his screen time is he's a well known actor in the UK.
I like and agree generally with Perigee's points above and quite liked a couple of other bits of dialogue. Rory's past tense. And the Doc's comment that it is all much simpler than the theories we've been coming up with ...
Hated that the image of an Angel was not an Angel. Hated that we never actually saw the contents of Amy's room. Or Rory's room. And as for the contents of the Doc's room ... I'd have liked a dead Amy & Rory or a Dream Lord or any kind of new mystery. I really hate that the only clue was the cloister bell which I see as a really massive cop-out.
I think the main reason I'm down on this episode is it makes me think the arc is going to be ambiguous. From what I can see I don't think next ep. is going to tie anything up and that just leaves 40 minutes to resolve so many things ... obviously that won't happen.
Oh, I should remark on this. The shortening of the eps from 60 to 40 minutes has been unfortunate several times this season. It was really unfortunate in this ep. The ending feels like a lot of compromises were made for the sake of fit. I think this is a really big reason the S5 episodes feel so much stronger than S6.
Anyway I no longer believe we're going to see many answers in the next 2 weeks. Parallel timelines, cracks, the big bang, the dream lord ... I think we're looking at an arc that is not an arc. Just a bunch of disjointed spookiness with no real payoff and a big bunch of SFX to set up more mysteries.
So ... yep, that makes me feel a bit down. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. Or maybe the Moff is trying to shake my faith ... But I wonder what's in my room?
It had the exact same land masses and oceans as our world does. Something happened that ripped their Earth (Mondas) out of its universe, and propelled it into ours. In order to survive, the people of that earth modified themselves cybernetically to withstand the effects of their devastated environment.
The RTD Cybermen were from a parallel Earth that was still in its own parallel universe. They had a big "C" on their chest, that stood for Cybus Industries.
Moffat era Cybermen have lacked the big "C" emblem on their chest, but are otherwise identical to the Cybus Industries versions.
It would be nice to see Cybermen from Mondas again. It would be awesome if the Doctor could travel back to Mondas before it was destroyed.
Resistance is exhausting
(both in quotes)
What is so odd is I've seen people try to post something with quotes 3 times in a row... then the 4th time it just works.
Odd. And really rather annoying.
Really? The last centurion has no faith in anything and there fore the "hotel" does not need him.
I just cannot put a finger on this episode and why it just did not work.
Oh well on to the companion lite episode and then a wedding at the end.... A wedding to end the season.... turned out alright next time.
considering how GOOD that was, and how packed it was with little strange moments and what seemed like hints and sly foreshadow. I know a lot of stuff is done that way on purpose to increase the fun of watching it all, but that doesn't take away from the FUN of watching it all.
I'm as enthused about DW as Ive been ever.
Maybe the writer feels the same about faith as I do. Give a human being enough time (hundreds of years? thousands?) as well as knowledge and he'll eventually figure out the pointlessness of faith, having replaced it with things like hope, drive and desire.
The last Centurion certainly fits THAT bill.
I actually thought Rory's comment in the hallway in response to whole CIA theory was directed RIGHT at us.
*no... it's amazing you've come up with a theory even more insane than what's actually happening*
I got a HUGE self-deprecating laugh out of that.
Interesting way of looking at it, but we can't call things "evidence" just because it feels good or we want it really badly to BE evidence.
Faith seems more like the DESIRE or hope for things unseen to be evident. Because if it WERE evidence, faith wouldn't be necessary. Then it would just BE.
the more I think the color of the bow ties doesn't mean anything....
Is that the house Amy and Rory were living in at the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut?
TARDIS blue front door.
Are Amy's nails painted TARDIS blue?
ok there are valuable docbackers MIA..... I'm gonna have to hire buckaroo banzai to find out who is kidnapping you guys.
I can't help but wondering if a little twist from this episode that wasn't even revealed (& maybe won't until later) that they in fact were NOT in "Amy's room" at the end there, where they were with the kid Amy version again, that that wasn't Amy's nightmare room, but rather... it was the Doctor's.
am I the only one who's got a HUGE crush on her? lol When I first started watching any of the Confidential episodes this year, saw her for the first time and was like... woah. Not only a great rack, but a beautiful face. Please don't tell me she's the romantic partner of the other DW Exec Prod she's always interviewed with that looks like a friggin metrosexual :p
I liked it. As somebody else mentioned though, it did fell like a two-parter lopped down to fit the running time. I would've liked a bit more build-up and ratcheted tension before the monster reveal. And perhaps less of a reveal. In all his glory, our minotaur was a bit crap, wasn't he?
Worked for my seven year old, though. She bolted herself to the wife's side after about twenty minutes.
I also think ventriloquist's dummies are now off one little girl's 'funny' list for life...
The doctor looks into room 11, goes "of course, who else?" and then puts a "do not disturb sign" on the door.
Later, we go to the room that ends up having little Amy, and the do not disturb sign falls off. It specifically caught my eye and at that point I went "Okay, now we're finding out what was in the doctor's room."
Little Amy would reveal to him that it's not fear based, but faith based. And how he would know to lead back to that exact room to make Amy confront her faith.
Unless I just completely imagined the do not disturb sign fluttering.
Yes, I got it wrong, it was Rory. And, yes, I chuckled too. Whether or not that comment meant anyone here specifically, it was certainly directed at our species.
That said ... I stand by the other half of my arse.
Oh, and @history on God existing
... oh oh, here we go ...
I aim to rewatch this ep with a specifically theological POV and comment on it that way later. But I've always been more interested in God as a verb than as a noun ...
That's funny, I didn't even notice you'd attributed it wrong.
and on God...
I tend to prefer not to argue with believers. For several reasons.
One: It's usually pointless.
*Two: Many of them are fine human beings, and I'd prefer to make an extra effort to get along. I'm sure there are many believers here who are absolutely wonderful people. Take for instance Mormons. I've known several, and was one myself in the distant past by family association. Some of the finest human beings I've ever had the pleasure to have known.
NOT that a conversation can't be had about religion/god without it getting nasty or anything. It's just that when one (or both) side reaches an absolute, conversations tend not to have anywhere civil to go.
* This is a recent habit, by design. BUT not just for here. I tend to save my diatribes on such things as linguistics , as well as any related vitriol for blogging. BUT I like to stay extra nice HERE. Find me slightly nasty at times elsewhere on AICN. I was even banned recently. Still very puzzling, actually. And I don't even have aspergers-ey tendencies. I know when I've said something completely inappropriate. *sigh* What can you do?
I'm starting to get the same vibe as you from this season.
My fear is that all we'll get at the in the last ep is the Doctor escaping death and then the arc continues into next year ---probably with Rory dead and the Doctor vowing to change things .
Is this the Empire strikes back of a 3 parter ?
I can't say that episode was one of the best ever, but I really, really enjoyed it. It was interesting and just darned enjoyable.
I think the Doctor saw himself as the thing he fears the most and the thing he has the most faith in is the TARDIS.
Rory talking in the past tense. Seemed such a throwaway line for the Doctor to notice and comment about it.
Liked the Nimon reference.
And one point that really only struck me today ... When the older Doctor, who dies at Lake Silencio, sends out for people (with the little blue envelopes, in the Impossible Astronaut), why does he send the envelope to a Rory and Amy from 200 years previous in his timeline? Why not send the envelope to them at the point after he last saw them?
What I mean is, he has just left Rory and Amy. Now, if this is the last time he sees them before the events of the Impossible Astronaut (not likely, but bear with me), is it not more logical to contact them after this point rather than at an earlier point in their timestream?
I know that it's established events now, but why go back to that point in their timestreams?
I'm just wondering if this is significant for the 'out' required to stop the Doctor snuffing it.
Good episode right up until THAT line from Amy about asking River/Melody to "come see her old mum".
Fuck. Off. No parent would EVER give up on searching for their kidnapped child.
Absolutely preposterous bullshit.
Many reasons; one, he knows they were there; two, he knows they are more trusting of him than they might be after he dropped them off; third, he himself wants to see them again and maybe test the flesh in some way?
I agree, I was under the impression that whole thing was still unresolved after Let's Kill Hitler, however it appears that being friends with a regenerated version of their missing child since school is fine by them...?
'Well, had a baby, it exploded, turned out the real one was kidnapped, found it as a 40-something, turns out it was our annoying best mate from school, hurrah!'
Nevermind the fact they missed actually raising her, nurturing her, y'know... PARENTHOOD!
I've been having a similar discussion over on BleedingCool, someone suggested they effectively DID raise Melody, albeit in a bizarre surrogate kind of way, but... it still just doesn't ring true with me.
They've been robbed of developing a bond with their child. In fact, their acceptance seems more like how the Doctor would react, it's just... odd.
One thing we must remember, Amy/Rory are now time travelers with the Doctor. They are now used to things out of sequence. Maybe they expect they will still have a role sometime. Or maybe they feel like, knowing Mels, they had their time with her. Maybe they are afraid they would be bad parents. Or maybe they wanted to leave the Doctor and that is why Rory talked about "past tense" with the Doctor and they had unresolved issues with the Doctor/River sequence. There were pictures of Amy with a baby, after all, to be explained.
I think a line or two of the Doctor saying something about time lines and time streams would have helped after Let's Kill Hitler; and showing Rory/Amy upset at the force of fate but feeling there was nothing more they could do. But there might be more.
...firstly welcome to ChuckNorris (oh, if only!!!) Lucky 13 and Sunday call. Hope you guys can stick around during the retro DocBacks and give us a chance to get to know you all better away from the sheer craziness of the series threads. You will find the pace of those retro DocBacks completely different, and it allows you greater scope to chew the cud (not that you can't do that here, but it has more chance of being lost during these threads.)
Anywho- all of you well met!
Sorry to be so tardy to the party, but the last few days have been rather awful, and regretably tinged with personal tragedy with the loss of a very dear friend. However, this is not the place to be discussing things like this.
The God Complex- one of he episodes I have been looking forward to and I have to say that it didn't disappoint. Toby Whitehouse did a very good job with his writing here, and the direction and production values were all top notch.
The "less is more" approach with the Minotaur worked a treat. Seeing it in shadow, silhouette, and from afar (the shot of it chasing Amy, Doc and Rory down the corridor near the end, as it tears around the corner in an over the shoulder shot was nothing short of magical!) added to the atmospehere, which at times was crazy unhinged (remember, this is a family show!!) and thick with menace.
Even the overall reveal of the minotaur didn't really disappoint. It was superbly realised. You can see where the budget went here, both in this and the set design.
As for David Walliams- I am not normally a big fan, and I have to say I sat waiting for his Little Britain gurning schtick to materialise, but thankfully he played Gibbis with a fevered sense of malice and slimy self preservation that was enough to get me interested in the character. Has it made me a bigger fan of his? Well, no, but at least i can say i have watched something he has been in that he a) hasn't ruined and b) didn't make me want to hurl a dustbin at my television.
It was also a nice touch to have Walliams pushing the wheelchair device along the corridors in a nod to Little Britain.
The support was rather top notch; Amara Karan played Rita nicely (I did smile when she said" Don't let that scare you" after the Muslim line from Smith.- Who? Political? NEVER ;)) but adored the Howie Spragg character and his decent into madness. I managed to feel more sorry for the death of his character than I did for Rita. (although that touch of the shadow growing across Ritas torso as thr Minotaur approached was excellent!!) I really wanted this guy to make it.
Which leaves me with the big points:
1) No, I totally disbelieve that Rory and Amy are gone from Who. Just......no.
2) Caratacuspotts- in one of your posts you mentioned that we didn't get to see inside Amy's room. We did, mate. Room number 7 and little Amelia sitting on her case. Beautiful scene with the Doc bastardising Amys faith in him (and yes!!! V'shael was absolutely correct in his comments that we had just been discussing Fenric, how spooky is that?????)
3) What was in the Docs room? I hope we never get to find out. As with the time war, our imaginations sometimes are far better than what we actually see, and our own interpretations resonate far louder. I shall not reveal my own theory, but the DO NOT DISTURB sign has alot to do with it.
Next week- and a return to James Cordens Craig, who I liked far better than I thought I would in last years Lodger. An interesting return to say the least, and I am wondering if we will see the tie-in with the Silence ship that made up the top half of his house, and if this is the reason the Doc goes back.
As for the purpose of the Cybermen- the alliance? Would certainly be an interesting premise, but that ship looks derelict. Crash landing from AGMGTW? Hmmmmmmm..
The God Complex- 8/10. This second half of who is certainly sometthing special.
...am I correct in interpreting one of your meanings as Library-related?
I myself, am not so sure of that. I took it to mean simply "he does not want us to die after him giving me the broken body speech" type of saving.
I mean if you're gonna riff on an episode of TNG at least change the character archetypes.
An alien whose world is many times conquered, awakes in a strange place with strangers he
would betray to survive.
TNG or DW?
Seems we get one decent episode then another snooze fest, what's going on?
...not been a great week. Didn't watch the episode until today (Sunday) which makes it the FIRST time I have not seen an episode air as it should since Eccleson and the new era began.
My wife actually insisted that I log on and post!!!
I hope that you are very well!!!!
Was I the only one who got a distinctly Sapphire and Steel vibe from the hotel?
Now, far be it for me to second guess the shows creative staff, but if the prison ship is travelling through space, and has picked up humans by the boat load, I'd have avoided putting things like Sontarans in the photos of the deceased, and snuck in photo of Joanna Lumley and David McCallum. But that's just me.
It's just an apple.
Yes, the Doctor post regeneration didn't like 'em. But that was down to the regeneration. He didn't like anything it seemed.
If you try to imply that this has something to do with the Ganger doc, then you've missed the point of the Ganger. The Ganger is IDENTICAL to the Doctor. It's not like the stereotypical duplicate/replacement storylines you'd see in other scifi, where there's one difference that can help the goodies identify the duplicate.
Many Docbackers may not be aware of this Nibiru rubbish, since so many of you went straight to Mondas and Planet 14. Which is actually cool since at least fiction is fiction.
There's an actual somewhat sizeable amount of, how shall I put this kindly.. well screw kindly, how shall I put this accurately... insane people? on the internet, who believe the Earth is on a collision course with a planet called Nibiru. I think that's what the crazy blogger was on about.
In the scene where the Doctor first comes in to talk to Joe. After a brief introduction, the Doctor says he wants to talk to Joe, and asks if he's still there. Then Joe says *It's still me Doctor*.
This definitely gave me the impression that there was a longer scene here.
For one thing, later on, the Doctor mentions that when the PRAISE HIM effect comes into play, he was going to ask questions and try to get answers. It at least implies that the Praising personae know more about what is going on that the regular prisoners do.
And I got the impression that that would have been learned initially in this room. Joe and then PRAISE HIM Joe, and then regular Joe again, all talking with the Doctor. Know what I mean?
Also, the Doctor knew they had been there 2 days. A lot of conversations seem to have happened off screen here.
Yes, one is library related. Only because the episode has him save them -- after encountering a computer-generated world (like the library). And the Doctor was told _something_. And it is odd -- normally the TARDIS will translate -- but this time, it wasn't translating; is it because even the monster wasn't real? Or Amy and Rory are now... something else? Just they should have been able to hear the translation but didn't. That is very peculiar.
Well, we don't know. The hope is Ian will get 2/e to have it on their Shada release. The review is positive, and I know he is in talks with 2/e now.
The more we can get the word out that Who fans want this, as long as it is not done in a rude way, the more I think it is likely it will happen. Ian has done a great deal of work on this one.
It's also not the only project he has worked on. For example, he has also had "Mission to the Unknown" animated from the audio. And he plans to do more work, especially if 2/e accepts what he has had done.
is another article on it, done before the review. Ian didn't seem to like all of the article itself, but was pleased for the publicity.
..okay, I do agree that it is a frustration for some, but Darvill in an interview ( a link provided, i believe, by HornOrSilk) mentioned that they haven't forgotten about it despite it not being mentioned. They realise that she will grow into River, and that they will see her again.
As much as it's a weak as fuck statement, I do think it's the best we're going to get.
Though I have the set of DVDS, I tried watching the first and couldn't get into the show. I need to watch it sometime, I know. I also know many new Who enterprises is said to be similar to the show... so I wouldn't be surprised.
It was also similar to "Chimes of Midnight" in its own way.
While I'm on a ramble of various things that occurred to me when watching last nights episode, I just wanted to throw this one in.
Has anyone noticed Matt has several walking styles which he uses when emoting the Doctors mood?
There's the cautious one, there's one he uses when he's displaying confidence, and there's one in particular he uses when it looks like he's walking to a fight. The sort that says *Right you lot, I want to have a word with YOU*. I first noticed that one in the Sara Jane Adventure, when he went storming towards the Shansheeth at the end of part 1.
You can see several examples of these during last nights episode, as his mood changes quite a bit over 42 minutes.
I point it out for anyone who has an interest in acting, to highlight how little subtle things like the way he carries his shoulders, can inform his entire performance.
He really is exceptionally good for a young actor, and the Doctor Who team were lucky to get him.
Amongst other things. But he also mentions at that moment, about how his faiths were taken away.. and then gets distracted by the tea.
He was very close to solving it much earlier than he did. I kind of liked that. Shows a fallible side to the man/TimeLord.
I liked the setup more than the resolution, and I did get a bit of the TNG vibe from the premise at first, but still pretty good. The episode felt rushed though, like a lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor.
Looks like I got to see my worst fear as well - having the Nimon return to the show (or a relative of the Nimon, at any rate). Glad this was WAY better than HORNS OF NIMON.
I'm wondering if Amy's room was #7 because her losing faith in the Doctor was the same as they did in CURSE OF FENRIC with the seventh Doctor.
Interesting that they made a point of showing the DO NOT DISTURB sign fall off the door. Also wondering if there is any significance to them rescuing the goldfish - felt like they were making a point showing of that.
...one connotation is that Joe said it simply because the Doc enquired as to his name and addressed him.
Maybe he simply just wanted the Doc to know that he inhabited his form and wasn't yet fully taken over by the Minotaur god.
One example of this would be someone who hasn't spoken for a while, and when addressed states " I'm still here...."
His room could have had Patrick Stewart in it, at an awards ceremony.
I'm not actually from the UK, so I've only ever seen Corden's work in DR WHO, but I really liked him in THE LODGER. Looking forward to next week - I love the Cybermen, even if their episodes tend to not be that great.
I recall the Doctor mentioning cybermats in a past episode, and see that Corden is holding one in the preview for next week. Looks like they went with the short versions, rather than the larger snake-like one used in REVENGE OF THE CYBERMEN.
I do think one line would have worked where the Doctor talks about trouble with timey-wimey time travel. Mention that whatever abducted River made it impossible for Amy/Rory to meet with her as a baby (the Doctor could even _lie_ about this to save a hassle). Have him explain it is like someone has their baby abducted -- when you find them as an adult, you can't get back the time.
Of course, I think we might see more to the story and it's not over yet.
Given that Amy's room was number 7, containing the waiting Amelia, it's no surprise that room 11 (the Doctors room) was nearby.
When the Minotaur is dying, and the hotel disappears into the sort of hologrid it is, we see room 11 right by its body. The Do Not Disturb sign falls to the ground. Was it not a construct like the hotel? Did the Doctor carry a Do Not Disturb sign around with him in his voluminous pockets?
And then Joe replied with It's Still Me.
Compare that with when he's talking to the worshipping version of Howie.
*Howie, Any second now it's going to possess you again. When it does I'm going to ask you some questions. Please try to answer them.*
Someone said earlier.... something to the effect of
*would a real parent EVER give up on a kidnapped child?? NO!! Of course not!*
Which I would follow up with..
*would a real parent EVER travel through time and space only to meet said aged child?!?! NO.*
Which is really the important part of all this. And it would have an effect on the way a parent would react or act. However, to not mention it at all? Odd. It does not strike me as any more or less odd that Amy and Rory seem very happy-go-lucky at the beginning of this episode after having sent ILFamy to her death (I assume) moments or even hours before. Some of this could just be the result of filming some episodes (or maybe even writing some) out of order.
Just some thoughts as I leave again to try sleep for a while. Wish me luck.
have left him, when it wasn't really their choice?
Because from Rory's reaction, he didn't even know the Doctor was leaving. He never got a chance to say good bye.
I can remember most companions leaving the Doctor by choice, or dying or circumstances forcing it (like Sarah Jane). But never where he left them behind for their own good.
Oh, apart from Susan of course. And even then, he made that choice for her, because she couldn't choose between David and the Doctor.
The Doctor kicked Susan out -- for her own good.
Sarah was dropped off... before he went to Gallifrey.
Peri.. who knows what really happened... they did a great audio about that...
Captain Jack.. again... was left behind...
Adam -- was left with a bit of a hole in his head.
...the length of time Howie had been taken over compared to Joe?
We do know that Joe had been there, what was it, 2 days or so? (If I understand correctly) Most of his resistance had gone by that point, but it was actually still him talking at that moment, and he wanted to let the Doc know.
Howie, on the other hand, was in the process and the Doc had had a chance to watch his decline.
I shall have to give it another watch later when my mind is less frazzled and I'm able to digest more info.
...which was a massive sitcom in the UK.
I never watched it, but it rated as one of the highest watched comedy shows in the UK. There is talk of making a couple of specials to air around Christmas time.
...just watching confidential and the read-throughs gives you an idea of how good an actor he is.
Watch him emote as he reads through his lines. there is no going through the motions here.
I completely agree with v'shael that Who are lucky to have him. My eldest child stated that he had "washed away Tennant" from her memory.
Whilst I disagree with her on that point (Tennant is still by far one of the most popular incarnations of the good Doc) I firmly believe that Smith is now so close to taking over Tom Baker as my number 1 of all time it is uncanny. Should he deliver next series then that will do it.
Initially, I was thinking along the lines of what many here said--The Dream Lord, a dying Tardis, the sad clown Doctor....BUT, after the Doctor figured out that what people saw was somehow tied to what they had FAITH in---that changes the question/answer.
Since we know the Tardis had to be involved, as the cloister bell was ringing--I wonder now if he saw Sexy warning him of his impending doom?
He certainly has faith in the Tardis & he does seem to feel that his time is running out.
However, at the time he saw his room, he was still under the impression that people were seeing their fears, so......
Either way, I really enjoyed this episode and LOVED the touch of taking the Ponds home in order to save them.
Okay, first up I'm studying the uncredited clown. It's certainly not Tennant. I think it's Smith making a face.
Now to HAT #751 ... where are we? Yes we know about the Nimon. But let's look a bit more deeply at the context than that. Recall the minotaur lived in a Cretan labyrinth. And recall the famous Cretan paradox of Epiminedes ... "Cretans always lie". Remind you of someone?
But I'm not at all certain we're just in a Greek myth. There is a story by Borges, "The House of Asterion" ... here it is: http://anagrammatically.com/2008/02/23/translated-la-casa-de-asterion-becomes-the-house-of-asterion/
If you haven't read Borges, well, I envy you the pleasure of reading him for the first time. The blind librarian - an amazing genius. He frequently wrote on labyrinths and mazes, but this story about Asterion (a name for the minotaur) is by far the most relevant.
~ of the games I play, the one I prefer is pretending there is another Asterion. I pretend that he has come to visit me and I show him around the house. [...] The house is the size of the world; better said, it is the world. [...] Perhaps I have created the stars and the Sun and the enormous house, but I do not remember anymore. ~
~ I hear their footsteps or their voices in the depths of the galleries of stone and I run with joy in search of them. The ceremony lasts a few minutes. One after another, they fall to the ground without my having to bloody my hands. Where they fall, they remain, and the cadavers help to distinguish one gallery from another. ~
~ I know that my redeemer lives, and in the end he will rise above the dust. If I could hear all the rumblings of the world, I would detect the sound of his footsteps. Let it be that he take me to a place with fewer galleries and fewer doors. ~
~ I wonder: what will my redeemer be like? Will he be a bull or a man? Will he be perhaps a bull with the face of a man? Or will he be like me? ~
I think there's no question Borges' Asterion is the basis of this ep. With Amy as Ariadne, and Rory as Theseus, the Doc is Dionysus.
The earliest images make Dionysus out an aged male, later ones a youth. He embodies spring, madness and regeneration. He holds a fennel wand or cane known as a thyrsus. He represents an alien god from some place beyond the borders of the known and civilized. His procession is made up of followers called maenads, who are nymphs and nurses. He is drawn in a weird chariot, usually by exotic beasts such as lions or tigers. He cannot be trapped. He is sometimes attended by a dreaming god Silenus or a race called the Sileni.
No I am not making this up.
Silenus is a tubby fellow who believes ~ that the best thing for a man is not to be born, and if already born, to die as soon as possible.~
It certainly makes sense for the Silents to be working for the Dream Lord ...
And in the Hesiod Theseus loses Ariadne to sleep and Dionysus then finds and marries her. After she kills herself Dionysus rescues her from Hades and brings her back to the land of the living.
Which doesn't bode well for Rory.
End of half-arsed theory. Moving on to episode notes ...
That picture is not a fly. It's a Silurian with her mask on.
Indeed the Doctor and the apple is significant to the arc.
In the puppet scene there's a small stage on which there's a prop prominently marked ~Magic Box~. On it there's a top hat and a wand/screwdriver.
Joe knows quite a lot about the Doctor.
Damn. The Choppah made it into a Dr Who ep. That's fucked up.
The theory more insane than what's actually happening is indeed popular in some Internet crazy circles. But it doesn't even have half an arse so I'm dispensing with it before discussing it. This demonstrates that Howie has faith in the Internet.
Unlike TGWW, Amy is not wearing a watch. Doc and Rory still have theirs. Probably means nothing ...
Rory's fire exit turns into a room. Why?
Running around the maze looking for Joe there appear to be 3 doctors ... nah, couldn't be ... could it?
Portraits on the walls in the theatrical room depict maidens with cloaks. Why?
What is Howie doing with the silverware?
The Doc tells Howie ~I won't leave you. I promise. You have my word on it~ and then to Gibbis ~No one else dies today~. Hmm.
Rory's ~Not all victories are about saving the universe~ may be the lead-in to the Doc's saving the Ponds ...
Rory was killed by the minotaur. Naturally.
The Doc asks the Ponds to save the fish. Gibbis kills and eats the fish. There are several scenes of this happening. Given that it seems a lot of important stuff was cut from this ep, why was this bit left in? What's its significance?
Spa Pasiphae. Pasiphae was the minotaur's mother. There's also a river god who assumed a minotaur form on occasion ... but is a river god a god of spas?
Doc has solved the Rubik's cube again. He picked it up 2 episodes ago ... is it non-technological technology?
~Show them what they needed~ - and the minotaur talks of these unseen wardens in the plural. Who are they?
There is no Do Not Disturb tag on the room with little Amy. When the door bursts open you can see that this is room 7. Amy's room.
What's in the Doc's room? The doorway was a knight's move away from the minotaur. Behind it there's just the porthole to the rest of the universe. And Rory.
~What do time lords pray to?~ The Doc doesn't answer.
.... as I can feel a Dalek overkill coming on.
And speaking of our friends from Skaro, so this means they re-appear in the finale then? If it turns out they are the ones behind all of this I shall fucking scream blue murder!!!
Just got around to watching it.
I love the idea and thought the ending was brill and yet something was missing.
I would have preferred if in Amy or Rory's room (I know he didn't have one) their bigest fear was never seeing their daughter again.
I know that this episode was written for last season which is probably why Roray was sidetracked a little. I like that not all writen Who tales are comlletely dropped but they do make for bizzare viewing when it comes to the season long arc
...made flesh in order to provoke a response that made one rely on their primary faith.
So what was the Docs worst fear?
The very best thing that can happen here (as I stated in a previous post) is that we never find out what he saw. We are left to make that decision for ourselves. I know that nothing shown can match my own theory, and that is simply enough for me.
Was the line about can you drop me off at the nearest galaxy.
Honestly, it doesn't take a full time Scientific Advisor on the writing staff to point out how utterly ridiculous that line is.
It would be like getting on a bus and saying *Can you drop me off at the nearest planet?* Only about a million times worse. Sense of scale people.
While I agree with those saying that a parent would NEVER give up on rescuing their kidnapped child.....
I think The Ponds know they cannot rescue her as a baby because they've ALREADY grown up with her as one of their best friends & to somehow now rescue her as a baby would be one of those "explode the universe" timeline violations.
At least, that's MY take on why they aren't frantically trying to find Melody as a baby & have just accepted that, as Mels pointed out--They DID "raise her". Just not in the way they would have expected to.
Of course, we are also constantly told "time can be re written", so maybe I'm totally off base here.
I can't get over how incredibly well he conveys agedness through his youthful appearance. The occasional look on his face or tiredness in his eyes...or the fleeting rickety hobble or crotchety movement. So subtle, but...crazy brilliant.
If my understanding of the Cloister Bell is correct, it doesn't need to have been in the room as an illusion - it could have been the real Cloister Bell, somewhere hidden on the holodeck, warning of the danger that the Doctor faced by opening the door.
Certainly the Doctor is a different person coming into this episode than he was going out.
I've been trying to sell Sad Clown all week - the lack of credit sealed that question for me, but here's one more for you.
Do Not Disturb = Rest In Peace.
I'd disagree; for me, I would think it is failure. He's a cocky bastard - has been through all his modern incarnations. He'll figure it out - he stands on top of a rock at Stonehenge and dares 1,000 races to come at him, bro. Time Lord Victorious. Makes armies run away without a shot fired.
The only time you ever really see him kicked in the crotch is when his magnificent plans are foiled.
Completely non-related, but brought to mind by the apple:
Saavik: Admiral, may I ask you a question?
Kirk: What's on your mind, Lieutenant?
Saavik: The Kobayashi Maru, sir.
Kirk: Are you asking me if we're playing out that scenario now?
Saavik: On the test, sir... will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.
McCoy: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
Kirk: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.
David Marcus: He cheated.
Kirk: I changed the conditions of the test; got a commendation for original thinking. I don't like to lose.
Saavik: Then you never faced that situation... faced death.
Kirk: I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
Yes last night's episode did have the ring of TNG to it but was definitely Who.
Last week's episode though I found a lot like the DS9 episode The Visitor:
A loved one split from another (or others) in time, showing up out of time (Sisko's ghost like presence showing up un-aged but to someone ageing = Amy going through faster time, seeing her through the viewer thing and then the older Amy seeing the unchanged Rory and Doctor).
The person who had led a life in a tangent universe sacrificing it (Jake realises he's dragging his Dad through time so commits suicide, his Dad is angry that he is sacrificing all that he's gone through = older Amy sacrificing herself because she knows Rory needs to be with her younger self).
Maybe due to the similarity to this story or merely because I knew as soon as we met older Amy she had to go I wasn't as moved as some by that episode. I liked it, a lot, but not weeping floods like some on here. It's a no-brainer of a choice though isn't it - an alternative Amy who although she's lived for 36 years won't exist if you rescue the real Amy. Hard choice but an obvious one.
To bring in another ST show but I thought the choice made in Voyager in "Tuvix" where Neelix and Tuvok were mashed together in a transporter accident into a totally new lifeform was a harder one - keep the new lifeform or reverse it, killing the new lifeform but bringing back the former two. I was never happy with the decision Janeway made btw.
I love reading the comments here, and reading the theories put out there. I don't post much, and this kinda goes back two episodes, but I would like to see someone else's take on it.
This doctor that we are seeing, my suspicion is that he is a flesh. Has been my theory since we were introduced to the idea of it, but something the Doc said two episodes back really made me think that the doctor who dies is a flesh.
In night terrors, when the gang assembles at the end, the doctor says, " Here we are now, all back in the flesh" Normally something in any other show i wouldn't even care about, but it's Doctor Who here
In the last flesh episode, before the big reveal of the switch Amy tells the real doc about his death. So we wouldn't even know now if it were the case.
I've never really been able to endorse the idea of starting shows with random epsiodes or midway.
In my books you need to start with the first episode of the 2005 stuff (aka series 1) 'Rose'.
But as has been said, you could also start with 'the 11th hour' the first episode of the 5th series, which is more or less a clean start to the show (though as said before you should check out the 3rd series episode 'blink' and the 4th series episode 'silence in the library/forrest of the dead' first if you do).
I think series 1 (the 2005 stuff) is a great beginning, I started with that knowing nothing about Dr. Who whatsoever besides the theme song from the old show, and I could follow it fine without having ever seen the classic era stuff.
The show continues to get stronger and stronger from there in my opinion. (series 3 & 4 being my personal favorites).
I thought this one was pretty solid. I had very high expectations for it so it's hard sometimes for an episode to live up to that.
I thought this episode like a few this year had great bizarre set up, but a bit too straight forward a conclusion.
I would say this episode was well written, but REALLY well directed, which is what made it work as well as it did.
On further reflection of last weeks episode, 'the girl who waited', I think it's a bit comparable to the 3rd season episode of LOST 'Flashes before your eyes' in that I found it emotionally/dramatically VERY satisfying, although logically/intellectually a bit dissappointing.
First, I echo Sam's welcome to all the new Docbackers - hello!
Now, as for the episode, I liked it *a lot*. I agree with everyone who says it appeared a bit ST:TNG, plus the manner in which our heroes arrived at the hotel was another typical contrivance, but the episode's lightness amid its PG darkness was otherwise a joy. Yes, the fact that there were apparently swathes of missing scenes did strike me, too (I'm pretty sure Howie referred to the Doctor as the Doctor before they'd been introduced, for example) but they didn't lessen my enjoyment of the whole.
And I loved the fact that Rita met a sorry end. No, wait, let me rephrase that - I was very sad that Rita met a sorry end, because she was terrific, but I was glad that, once again, the episode had cool people die, and there weren't any easy outs - kudos to that.
And I likewise hope we never get any further deatils with regards to what was in room 11, because to do so would needlessly destroy much deliberately cultivated mystery about our good Doctor.
All in all, I thought the episode was a triumph. For the life of me, though, despite the reasons I've given above, I cannot understand why I've enjoyed some episodes this season more than others, because there haven't really been any weak ones, and at a different time of day I'd have probably preferred tGWW over this. But such things...
Caractacus, my good man, anyone who devotes precious time to explicating crazy but well-researched notions on the interwebs has my respect, so I thought I'd respond with some opinions on your latest buttock, if you get my drift.
Now, it seems to me quite likely that the whole S5/S6 era is coloured by Borges; I think it's common knowledge by now that the Moff knows his high-end literature, and so the desire for recent stories to reflect the greats woudn't come as any surprise whatsoever. And you're right that we can't just be witnessing a Greek myth, as whilst the Doc clearly reflects a number of aspects of Dionysus, who is seen in many circles as being the progenitor of the Christ mythology, much of which we've also seen reflected earlier this series, in terms of the minotaur myth, most of them are quite exlicit that Dionysus and Ariadne were married, that Theseus effectively stole Ariadne away, and that Thesues was part of a sacrifical party ent explicitly to slay the minotaur, and that's quite dissimilar to the trajectory we've been seeing. With regards to the God complex being based explicitly on the House of Asterion; well, the numbers don't quite add up, but hell - anything which brings people's attention to Borges has my vote. Actually, I'd like to think that 'The Doctor's Wife' might reflect this story instead, for it has an infinite house, corridors, a sacrifical party, numerous deaths and a denoument where the antagonist doesn't put up much of a fight...
Oh, and as for the fish, and Walliams eating them - I confidenetly predict that these are of no importance whatsoever, and are the rod, line and sinker of geek-bait. :)
Our man Craig (James Corden) is back!!!!!!! From what I see here, everyone is happy to see him!!! LOL (One of the advantages the US Who fans have is most of the actors on Who we have never seen, so, the, let's say, dislike for Tate and, now, Corden, we may not understand.) For the record, I think Donna was a great companion and I liked Craig, too, but, that's just my opinion.
but they don't seem to have anything to do with the arc.... other than dropping of the ponds/williams.... at their TARDIS blue front doorstep....
When do they return? sometime next week? or are they gone till next year?
The scene where he shatters Amy's faith in him is just brilliant and heartbreaking, as is their goodbye for now.
As SO many other here have observed, Matt Smith is a brilliant actor. The subtleties of his shifts in voice, expression, the joy of a child coming through as he waves goodbye & the loneliness of the Doctor once he's back in the Tardis as the camera films him from above--ALL wonderful heartwrenching moments.
And then Amy looking out her window....
Count me as one of those who really liked The Lodger.
I really have no idea what to expect, even in terms of basic premise from these final 2 episodes. I feel like almost everything that really stood out in the trailers for this year has been covered.
I just ordered:
Curse of Peladon
Monsters of Peladon
Masque of Madragora
Image of Fendahl
The Leisure Hive
State of Decay
None of which I've seen.
as well as Brains of Morbius (which I've seen before but don't own)
I now have 56 classic stories on dvd! I've managed to amass a pretty decent little library of the classics in just under a year.
room 11 because he is the 11th doctor.
he saw himself.
Because the doctor fears himself the most because of what has and could happen to his companions.
That is also the reason that he leaves amy and rory on earth.
now i can reminisce the joys of my crappy childhood through what still remains to be a children's show.
@rebel scumb, are you sure you ordered classic doctor who?
Curse of Peladon
Monsters of Peladon
Masque of Madragora
Image of Fendahl
The Leisure Hive
State of Decay
-- these sound like old porn movies.
Who ever is in there is a "you" and the door # is 11. That's interesting, but not enough. I really wanted to know who was in there. Spinal Tap's amp? I was personally hoping it was Doctor 8. I could see 8 being the one Doctor who regenerated during the time war that really went off to the dark path before he died. He could be the version of the Doctor that he never wants to be again.
Then again I really just want to see more Doctor 8. They could do another series for him without any problem, IMO to show the timewar, and repair some of the non-canon parts of the movie. I'd love that. Also, 8's radio play of Shada was pretty great I thought. A lot of potential there.
When it showed up in the Tenth Planet, Mondas was said to be a sister planet to Earth that had drifted out of its orbit and was finally returning back in 1986. Nothing was said about coming from a parallel universe.
In the New Adventure Iceberg, David Banks hypothesized that it was the arrival of the Earth's moon that threw Mondas out of its orbit.
Of course, we all know it was actually Adric and the Cybermen's fault for their planet getting knocked out of orbit in the first place. Adric's freighter didn't crashland on Earth, it crashed on Mondas and knocked it out of orbit. ;)
I just took it to mean that based on what the Doctor said, he thought that Joe was possessed, and Joe was just letting the Doctor know that he was still there and able to talk, even if there were some possession involved.
When the Doctor talked with Howie, he had taken on board what he had learned from Joe. He knew that Howie would still be there when the possession took place, so he prepped Howie so that he could ask questions. If the possession didn't leave the original person there, then there would have been no need for the Doctor to have that conversation with Howie prior to the possession coming back.
It could be that Moffat's configuring him that way, and maybe he appeared that way to some of the Greeks. I suspect though if you're going to compare the Doctor to Greek gods though, he would fit Apollo just as well (god of medicine and healing, truth and prophecy - who would be more prophetic than someone who's actually seen the future). Or, if you're going with the Illiad, it would be Paeon.
Of course, given the suggestion from that image of a Norse type in front of a chessboard, I still think that equating the Doctor with Loki might not be far off.
They seem to be making a point of depowering(?) the Doctor this season, having him fail more often and making costly mistakes, which I find rather interesting. This is the first time since the earliest seasons that the Doctor has really been shown so fallible. Of course, he had his failings in the original series (Adric's death, and . . . well, not kicking Adric into space once he found him onboard in the first place), but this is the first time that they really sell the notion that he is just a knowledgeable guy who doesn't have all the answers.
See his failure in AGMGTW when his allies get killed and he loses Melody, then (especially) watch his reaction to locking future-Amy out of the TARDIS -- he shows a vulnerability when he is telling himself that it isn't real, as though in denial. He's a Timelord, but when he is forced to deal with the effects of time travel, he is just as broken up as the rest of us. Kinda similar to a line in TIME OF ANGELS when the bishop says he will be dealing with the death of his men long after the Doctor has flown away. The Doctor doesn't do clean-up.
Now this week, he finds a woman that he was willing to have join him (and the funny way he fired Amy indicates he would have done this ordinarily), and he gives her the wrong advice, resulting in her death -- which could have just as easily happened to Amy.
The Minotaur's last words "I wasn't talking about myself" to me clearly indicates that he was referring to The Doctor. Think about it, old being drenched in the blood of the innocent. As much good as The Doctor has tried to do in his lifetime he still has ALOT of blood on his hands. As far as his room, I think he see himself and the consequences of his actions (that or he sees Amy and or Rory's death and his failure to prevent it.) just theories, I figure we'll have our answers when The Moff deems it necessary to divulge them.
In order of likelihood, here is who I think might have been in Room 11
The first Doctor
All previous Doctors together
Rassilon (the original, not the from the end of Season 5 who I assume is a decedent of the original)
As for bringing back Amy, I think what would be cool would be if Old Amy somehow survives and comes back as an enemy to the Doctor.
I think it's plain as day. His thyrsus opens the earth and rocks revealing jewels and honey, and unlocks the very gates of Hades. It is a beneficent wand and also a weapon, and can be used to destroy those who oppose his cult and the freedoms he represents.
He is also the Liberator (Eleutherios), whose wine, music and ecstatic dance frees his followers from self-conscious fear and care, and subverts the oppressive restraints of the powerful. Those who partake in his mysteries are possessed and empowered by the god himself [becoming complex space-time events - time travellers].
He is doomed to be a wandering and lonely God, cast out of Olympus [Gallifrey] because of the machinations of its leaders. He is pictured as an old man and a young man in no particular order.
And Dionysus is attended by nymphs, nurses and Sileni. I mean ... really!
With regard to the latest ep, Dionysus often appears with bull horns or in the aspect of a bull. Given the white bull that was the father of the minotaur was secretly a God, this may explain the Doc's sympathy for this particular monster.
@doctortom: The doc is far too rebellious and chaotic to be Apollo and he doesn't seem to have any aspect of Pan except the nymphs. So, no, I think we have him pegged.
It seems a lot of folks here like that fat guy from The Lodger, and who knows - maybe the episode will be OK.
But with everyone here recognizing the strength of Smiths acting, it seems a shame that the episode isn't a Smith solo act.
The Doctor alone, facing what appears to be inevitable doom, facing no monster other than himself. Give him a mirror; give him the Dream Lord; give him a voice interface - just something to bounce his thoughts off. For once, let's just see what makes the Eleventh Doctor tick.
I'm just afraid - and very nearly certain - that we're just going to get a silly, neat answer that totally sidesteps the need to investigate the Doctor's depth. Again.
After fifty years of monsters, couldn't we just get one episode of Just The Doctor, unburdening?
...Maybe next series, for the 50th... ~sigh~
I haven't revisited ANY of the Eccelston stuff since I first watched it a back in... I guess it would have been around 2007 or 2008.
Watching it again the first thought that strikes me is just how much better the opening titles were for the RTD compared to the new one, the theme song and the visual of the time corridor is just PERFECT
I love the Moffat era stuff don't get me wrong, but I don't think the opening of the show has ever been better than it was during series 1-3.
It's also weird how stylistically different the show is visually, I'm digging it though. Looking forward to watching this all the way through!
I've felt that way for a while too myself! As a kid I liked Peter Davison best, because I was actually a little scared of Baker, but in retrospect, Baker has been my definitive Doctor (although I still LOVE Davison's incarnation). But Matt Smith has been sneaking up behind Baker getting ready to whop him over the head for a while now... We are blessed to have Smith in the role, and I dread the day he leaves.
Going to that place was not unexpected for the Doctor. He may not have intentionally avoided going to that planet of giants or he may have just lied about going to that planet. Whatever the case, he knew he was going to some place which would end up with Rory and Amy leaving.
Remember the Tardis said it or she sends him to where he needs to go. So, if he went to that particular place unintentionally then it is where he needed to be. He was practically interviewing Lucy to be his new companion up until her choice was made. But, more than that the Doctor did make some mistakes which seemed intentional though one seemed like a Freudian slip.
He seemed to genuinely enjoy the apple. That seemed like something which came out of the blue. But, he only took one bite out of it.
He said he had never been attacked with a chair leg before and then quickly told them he just told a lie.
I think he was planning on shattering Amy's faith in him anyway. That prison just facilitated it perfectly.
The Freudian slip...that is the thing no one has mentioned and which led to me posting here:
At the beginning, when they were looking down the stairwell, he said: Amy, Mickey, this could be the most exciting thing I've ever seen. He called Rory Mickey.
caractacuspotts, I think the Doctor had sympathy for the Minotaur's plight but to me the entire conversation he translated was pretty much a monologue about himself, including the bit in the spa, with the mirrors mainly reflecting the Doctor.
As for who or what was in the room, I don't know for sure and don't feel comfortable guessing. However, it did seem like there was a theme. In addition to the obvious labyrinth thread (making choices and turns) there was the Doctor admiring bravery, which Rory also echoed by talking about how Howie's victory was significant. It is also bravery which Amy talked up to calm the coward Gollis--the perfect contrast to the theme--and which the Doctor saw in Lucy. He admired her observation skills and smarts but he admired her bravery (she specifically said she didn't fear hell).
That theme of the hero is obviously all apart of the myth but it is also the running theme of the show, at least the new shows. The Doctor admires people/creatures that are brave and are willing to over come being ordinary and do heroic things. He knew Gollis would not protect Howie, that's why he said no one else would die today because he was telling that rat faced bastard to man up. He was also not surprised Gollis failed and it pissed him off.
As for Rory and his personal room, if the Fire Exit was legit, what caused it to vanish? If Rory had gone into that room would he have seen who he fears? The running joke was that he fears or is subordinate to Amy and has an immense amount of faith in her and their relationship. After all, he's the boy who waited.
So, Rory's faith was in his love for Amy. Awwww. Shucks.
Anyway, if you can, rewatch it to hear Rory being called Mickey and Rory doesn't flinch. The Doctor was thinking about Rose and his past companions and I took a lot of this episode as reflecting that scene with the rogues gallery of holographic past companions, who's lives he had messed up, and how older Amy hated him for leaving her and making her wait for him in the previous episode. The Doctor knew it was time to take the two home, this stop just made it easier to explain why he had to.
Not saying they were making the Doc into St. Francis of Assisi but if the fish were real--and they weren’t--he probably just wanted them saved, too. The pair of fish. Two significant lives to the Doctor.
He didn’t want anything to die. Plus having Amy move them gave her something to do and allowed for the conversation between Lucy and the Doctor about the God Complex to have some meaning. It allowed for showing Amy carefully placing the bowl out of the way. Minor, yeah. But, it was around when the Doctor said that she and Rory (and by extension all of his past companions) chose to accompany him.
That said, the fish/bowl vanished when the HiDef hologram ended, right? So, saving them didn’t matter. As if it was high symbolism anyhow. It likely was not that important, just a character thing.
BTW, caractacuspotts, that scene where Amy is putting the fishbowl down is where the picture of the Fly Guy is. There is a photo of a lizard lady with a mask in the stair well though.
As it goes, I thought the episode was good and important...even in that Ghost Train way you guys have been discussing.
I wish I had heard Beaky.
If I had heard that I would have given the episode a: Meh! and treated it like Love and Monsters...which I couldn’t even get halfway through.
hmm... the Doctor made a Freudian slip, Rory made one too when he used the past tense... did Amelia make a doozy too?
Which is I think why Rory didn't flinch. Oh, and I think you mean Rita where you write Lucy.
But it's an interesting idea that the entire conversation with the minotaur is actually a monologue.
What's most interesting to me about the episode is who made this Labyrinth. The idea that it's the tesselectites based on SFX similarities isn't very attractive to me.
I go back to the doctordummies. Someone was controlling them. That someone was either the minotaur or the Labyrinth constructors. And I don't think it was the minotaur.
Of course that one scene where there appear to be 3 doctors when the Doc finds Joe dead might be tipping the hand.
But ... I don't find that an entirely satisfying explanation on this occasion. It is all too obfuscated, too baroque, and too aimless. Too many secrets.
Something odd is going on here. And I don't mean Doctor odd. I mean Moffatt odd.
I figured it had to do with the hotel... it was mentioned I believe more than once, that you would leave one part of the hotel, walk down a hallway, and end up right where you started..... I figured that the scene which reminded me of scooby doo... where you see the doctor running this way and that way, all had to do with the hotel playing tricks on him...
...this is the series/season where he has just taken the role and ran with it.
Some have criticised him in a couple of episodes, namely COTBS, but even in weaker efforts he has stood out, and whilst taking a back seat ( TGWW) he has also been magic.
Every quirk, mannersim, frown, sigh, laugh, grin, shrug of the shoudlers et al convey just how brilliant a find this young man is.
During Night Terrors he gave me goosebumps when talking to George's father......
..."See these eyes... these are old eyes....."
..and aint that the truth!!! One more series, and if he is as good as he is now (without spiraling into Tennant-like goofiness, at least until Waters of Mars..) then after a reign of nearly 3 decades Mr Baker will be relegated to second position. And THAT is a feat to be proud of!!
.... and I still enjoy the hell out of it, despite the shonky effects and limited budget.
I actually watched The Unquiett dead before TGWW came on, and loved it all over again. Sometimes it makes me wish that Eccleson had more of a run, but all things turn out for the best and I am certainly thankful with what we have got now!!!!
..I am not really fond of her per say, I just thought he did an okay job last year with the material he had.
It would be cool, as I have said earlier, if the Doc goes back to him with a tie in to the ship that made up the top half of his house, and not just for quirky roly-poly Corden erm...fun.
I do have a feeling, however that next week might be one of the weaker episodes of the series, and going into the finale it needs to be as strong as a mother fucker. (that is actually a term in the Oxford English Dictionary, after I crudely scribbled it in on page 367 with a biro.)
..yeah a few on here have theorised that she may indeed be in the suit at Silencio, and has survived to be recruited by the order of the Silence.
Personally, her swan song in TGWW was so perfect that I would be highly disappointed if she were to ever show up again, and cheapen her sacrifice.
I can imagine how difficult it is to follow a through-line in a complicated story and keep it going, but this season has been a disaster in keeping up the side.
I don't have ANY faith ANY answers will be given by the finale, just another jump to another season where, no doubt, the whole 'exploding Tardis' plot will be used as a gimmick to lead into the 50th anniversary. Gimmicks. That's what this season has been blissfully full of.
River as Amy and Rory's child = total gimmick. We didn't believe in them as a couple last year, why would we believe in them as parents this year? A poorly written couple (Rory 'plot hole' Williams: by the time of the Pandorica Opens he never existed -yet a photo of him still exists and, as if by magic, his entire personality and memories exist in an Auton duplicate - no explanation given. No explanation for the returned Rory having memories of being something he never was - and no faith? Well, he isn't real now is he?).
The Silence = Gimmick villains. We're told more about them than shown and that's just lame. Why do we have to guess at everything? There should be real data, clues in the story and instead we're left to guess at their connections, their reasons and get very little.
The Tesselecta - Who the hell are they? Where did they come from? The Doctor is in the dark about more villains and aliens than ever before. The Time Lords used to 'manage' time-related issues for the universe - so where did these little buggers come from? The planet of Deus ex Machina?
River = The girl who really waited. River started out as a fun, mysterious stranger, but a noble one who sacrificed herself for others. Then she became an inter-galactic time traveling Laura Croft with a dark secret. Now she's - what, exactly? A sex-kitten/trouble-making human with time lord DNA programmed to kill the Doctor for reasons unknown? Again, we're 'told' more than shown. Oh and PS: most brain-washed psychopaths would not announce themselves as such. They don't realize they're brain-washed and they don't recognize themselves as psychotic. It's a thing.
Kovarian and Co. = Who are they again? Why should we care? Where does their story line come from? Where is it going? I don't expect any sort of pay off by the end of this season or the next. Too much time will pass between now and then for us to keep caring anyway.
In fact, why should we care about any of this? Good stuff for the 'enthusiasts' who like to spout their own theories, but for those of us who expected a little better (considering how brilliantly orchestrated season five was), we are left to flounder and 'meh' at every episode this season.
The only thing that's kept some of us watching is our love for the Doctor, a loyalty that's been sorely tested this year more than any other. In the US we've been subjected to the condescending opening intro, the over-the-top marketing campaign that has seen everyone involved with the show whore themselves with obvious discomfort (all those behind-the-scenes interviews look awkward at best), and I don't buy Moffat's over-enthusiastic spouting on Twitter and elsewhere. The emphasis on ratings is the desperation of quantity over quality.
Now we get a penultimate episode that appears to be another stand-alone with the over-used Cybermen (well, it's not Daleks, at least). Counting on a boring 40 minutes with a twist at the end. Seems to be the way of things.
What you want to bet the Wedding of River Song involves a homicide as well?
...just not the big bad of this series, please!!!! I don't mind them popping by, I just wish they wouldn't stay for long, even as iconic as they are.
Save a monster fucked up battle with them for the 50th and that would be grand!
1. Tom Baker. Never to be dethroned. He IS the Doctor. For the first time, the character seemed genuinely alien.
2. David Tennant. He did comedy AND gravatas so well. Had some of the best (and worst) Who stories of recent years. Human Nature/Family of Blood may just be my favourite Who tale since its 80s hayday.
3. Jon Pertwee. Action man. Raconteur. Love it!
4. Matt Smith. I really like what he's doing although I think things could be a just a tad less frenetic from time to time. If Douglas Adams were alive today, he'd be writing for Matt's incarnation of Who. Of that I have no doubt.
5. Paul McGann. Had we seen more of him, I suspect he would be higher up the list. A great actor. What a missed opportunity!
6. Christopher Eccleston. Never seemed that into it, but definitely set the template for modern Who. The "Dalek" episode was very good indeed.
7. Peter Davison. By virtue of being so much better than what followed...
8. Patrick Troughton. Before my time, but definitely an interesting performance.
9. William Hartnell. Just a crotchety old man. And yet, he got the ball rolling...
10. Sylvester McCoy. The stories and production values were largely awful, and it was frankly embarrassing to watch.
11. Colin Baker. He's just unlikeable. And WHAT the hell is he wearing?!
Anyone else care to jot down their own list?
As I said, my faith has been shaken. So, given that it's been shaken, if Moff can pull something tangible out of the next 80 minutes my faith will be redoubled.
Otherwise ... um, well, you know, I'll keep watching because, after all, it is good. But my buttock will be busy doing something else.
1 Tom Baker
2 Matt Smith
3 Patrick Troughton
4 Jo(h)n (BBWWWHAHAHAHAHAHA Horn!!!) pertwee
5 David Tennant
6 Chris Eccleson
7 Paul McGann
8 Peter Davi(d)son (MORE BWWWHAHAHAHAHAHA to Horn!!)
9 Sylvester McCoy
10 William Hartnell
11 Colin Baker (who is much better in the audio adventures than the shit on TV)
...you mean a while.....
..yes, a whhhhhile..
yes, a whhhhhile....
...Brian, you're just being whhhierd..
OH COME ON! THAT ONE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE AN "H" IN IT!!!
(Thank you, Family Guy...)
I think that Caractacus is right in nailing this ep to the mast of the story of Asterion, and equally correct with the idea that the Doc is a surrogate for Dionysus. When I last posted, whilst I had recently watched the ep, my memory was off, so I had already misremembered details, so the 'who said what to who' of my last post was all a bit wrong - silly me. However, I've since re-watched the episode and I noticed something else. We've been discussing how the last episode could have been called 'Rory's choice'; well, this episode could have easily been titled 'The Doctor's choice,' and not just for the most obvious reasons. The first time I watched the episode, I noticed, like a lot of you I imagine, that whilst cleverly veiled, the episode is very distinctly anti-faith, and by extension anti-religious, which in itself a fine, traditional SF approach. But on the second viewing my ears pricked up when I heard the Doctor say to the minotaur, 'I give you the gift of death,' and I went 'Ooh, that's Jacques Derrida,' Derrida being the developer of deconstruction theory and an important figure in postmodern philosophy, whose 'The Gift of Death' was one of his more important and indecipherable texts.
To paraphrase from here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/derrida/
The problem of undecidability is The Gift of Death. In this text, Derrida seems to support the sacrificing of a certain notion of ethics and universality for a conception of radical singularity not unlike that evinced by the “hyper-ethical” sacrifice that Abraham makes of his son upon Mt Moriah, according to both the Judaic and Christian religions alike (GD 71). To represent Derrida’s position more precisely, true responsibility consists in oscillating between the demands of that which is wholly other (in Abraham’s case, God, but also any particular other) and the more general demands of a community (see Section 6). Responsibility is enduring this trial of the undecidable decision, where attending to the call of a particular other will inevitably demand an estrangement from the “other others” and their communal needs. Whatever decision one may take, according to Derrida, it can never be wholly justified (GD 70). Of course, Derrida’s emphasis upon the undecidability inherent in all decision-making does not want to convey inactivity or a quietism of despair, and he has insisted that the madness of the decision also demands urgency and precipitation. Nevertheless, what is undergone is described as the “trial of undecidability” (LI 210) and what is involved in enduring this trial would seem to be a relatively anguished being...A decision must be fundamentally different from any prior preparations for it.
(More info here: http://www.quodlibet.net/gift.shtml)
So the Doctor is basically your all-purpose Godhead figure who, we have to assume, is fundamentally responsible for his own destruction. So, um, yeah.
Oh, and when I rewatched 'Let's Kill Hitler' I noticed that the crew aboard the Tesselecta never referred to Melody as a war criminal, only that she killed the Doctor. When they went 'It's Her!' they were, in fact, looking at a picture of the Tardis. Hidden in plain sight. Bad Tardis! Or Not.
is possibly the most chilling and disturbing scene ever to be in Doctor Who.
Kudos to the actress for selling it so well. Its such a raw 'naked' moment of irrational shame that I think would touch a nerve with almost anyone, and yet you rarely see on TV much less on Dr Who
I actually think the somewhat shoddy FX of the first series are a big part of what I like about it.
It feels like a perfect bridge from the old show to the new ones, and pretty much all I knew about Dr. Who before watching 'Rose' was that the old show had really cheesy sets/costumes.
It's one of the reasons why I think all newbies to Who should start with 'Rose' is also because it perfectly introduces all the iconic stuff over the course of the first series, ending with the regeneration, so in effect the audience IS Rose. In the same way that we are Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker.
For me what was perhaps the smartest move that RTD made with the return of the show (and Moffat has continued with) is that the show is not about the audience being the Doctor, it's about seeing the doctor through the eyes of the companions.
I don't think I could do a definitive ranking of 1 to 11, but I can give a general assessment
-Eccelston/Tennant/Smith: I like all of these guys pretty equally, for different reasons, and perhaps because I started with New-Who, or maybe because they are just given a lot more to chew on as actors than any of the classic era guys, but I think they tie for first place for me. Or you can just consider it a seperate rating for New-Doctors vs Classic Doctors
-Jon Pertwee: I favorite of the classics. So much class, charm and wit. And there's a stillness about him. And his bizarre dandy costume and martial arts never subtract from his authority and integrity
-Peter Davison: The more I watch of peter Davison the more I like his doctor. In some ways the most human doctor.
-Tom Baker: Now this is high blasphemy I know, but to tell the truth, he doesn't do a whole for me, I feel like so much of what makes the Baker WHo great has very little to do with Baker himself. Feels (to me) like the deck is just stacked really well in his favour. He has the best companions: Sarah Jane, Leela & Romana. The best scripts, the best sets/aliens, the best costume. But removing that and just assessing him as The Doctor... I dunno. He's far from the worst, and I do love that he truly seems to be a bit insane, but I feel confident in ranking him below Doctors 9, 10, 11, 3 & 5.
-Conversely Patrick Troughton seems awesome to me of what little I've seen of him (just tomb of the cybermen and his 3 multidoctor appearances). However the stories he's in of his own never really appeal to me, so he's sort of the opposite of Tom Baker for me
-Hartnell I really like some of his stuff, I've only seen a few,
-Haven't really seen much of McCoy, but I loved Rememberance of the Daleks
-I've only seen COlin Baker in 'the two doctors' and I'm not in any rush to see more of his.
There you go, vague, and indecisive but that's my list
...makes a lot of sense for someone who came to Who via the 2005 series.
It's often said that people's favourite Doctor is their first. That's true for me; Tom Baker is the first I remember.
That said, he seems to be a perennial favourite and you may have hit on some of the reasons why - the show was clearly firing on all cylinders during his run. That said, as good as the companions, stories etc were, Tom still brings some really interesting attributes to the role - a poetic quality to his reading of the lines, an ancient stare, a deep and mellifluous voice. His performance is truly alien and for the first time I can buy it that The Doctor is a Gallifreyan, not an earthling.
Oh, and dammit - Mary Tamm was HOT.
He had some of the best stories, and he was a really wicked Doctor. The sad thing is his last season wasn't his best, and it is what we have most (there were good ones in it, War Games, Invasion, and Mind Robber) but... his best were really from the previous two seasons (and sometimes ones one would not expect).
Though I know some fans will be surprised at my list and what it doesn't include, what I think his best are:
Power of the Daleks (best Dalek story, period)
Evil of the Daleks
Enemy of the World (wicked, wicked story, and might have some connection to Doctor Who this season)
Web of Fear
River and the Doctor? But the Doctor doesn't have a room! Wait...
You know, I really hope the console has wipe-down surfaces.
Oh, with regards to the acting, yes, it was top drawer; I thought that Amara Karan was especially excellent and I hope we get to see more of her in Who - next time I'd love to see her as a baddie! This week's direction was also splendid.
Oh, and a general question - what did the Doctor say as he was coming down the stairs just before he talked about the cheeseplant, as I didn't catch it.
Also, the clown first appeared in room 214, which was the same room that Lucy Hayward had her interaction with Gamba the gorilla in. Interestingly, 214 is the sum of the primes 2 and 107, both of which are Chen primes, where a prime number p is called a Chen prime if p + 2 is either a prime or a product of two primes. 7 is also a Chen prime; Chen 7, if you will. Surprised no-one's mentioned this yet - does no-one do recreational mathematics these days :)
You guys are too kind.
Ithrat's Derrida riff is interesting. I've not read Derrida but I gather he's big on diagonalisation. Kind of an arty-farty Goedel or an unfunny Jarry. There is something pataphysical about most DW so I guess he's got to be in the mix too.
Now to real spoilers .... I stumbled over http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7F5HnAKgE . It gives away the whole premise, almost the whole plot, certainly all the FX, and probably most of the good gags.
But once I started watching it I realised that the only real reason I'd care about the next episode is to look for things hidden. No knock to Denise Paul, but her explanation that this is supposed to be a light arc-less episode designed to let us get our breath back after all the heavy stuff of the past few episodes is another knock to my faith.
We've just had 3 arc-free episodes, barring possibly the Red Settings theory re TGWW. Leaving all the ends loose until Ep 13, which must also have a Pond Reentry, Two Weddings, Churchill, Pterodactyls, The Pyramid, The Deaths of at least One Doctor, Rory and Madame Kovarian, Not To Mention That Fucking Viking ... all in 40 minutes ... basically means the Moff is going to delay the arc payoff until S7 if then. If at all.
And I think that's why MOV is doing an imitation of the prequel to LKH. I hope he's back soon. But I kind of think he's going to wait until the disappointment dies down.
OTOH this represents an unparalleled opportunity in the annals of fan fiction. Here we are, MOV's brain trust, untrussed. We are, to a man or woman, clever clogs, good hearted and even tempered. Between us we know everything it is possible to know about DW.
We could do something with it.
The Moff can blow us off but he cannot blow us up. I say that we're up to this. I say that between us we can create our own answers. Complete the arc ourselves. No shortcuts, no fluff, just what we all came here for, what we're all looking for - an adult DW for some intelligent definition of the word adult.
Naturally the show will roll on anyway, and each little disappointment, each missed opportunity, each slip up, will present us with a chance to fill in a back story that would make it all work for us.
So ... what do you say my fellow red-tie wearing bobble heads? Are you in? And if you're in then ... well, I throw the floor open on ways and means.
But I'll give this project a name. Names are magic. So I hereby dub it Project Thyrsus - after Dionysus's Sonic Screwdriver.
Project Thyrsus probably can't get going until after Ep 13. And you never know, Moff is a very canny bugger, Thyrsus might not be necessary at all. But if the Moff doesn't come through for us I think this makes a fine Plan B. We can just work it out for ourselves.
And the method might be as simple as asking ourselves ... if the Doc were writing this, what would he write?
because a lot of people seem to concentrate on that, and wonder how it can all possibly be resolved in 45 minutes....
Just looking at the second half of the season, I was underwhelmed by Let's Kill Hitler (mostly because it couldn't live up to the hype. On re-watching it, it's enjoyable as hell)
Night Terrors was bit naff, but alright.
Then the Girl Who Waited really hit home nicely.
And The God Complex was suitably creepy and moving in places.
All in all, I'm enjoying the second half of the season a lot.
I think The Moff is playing with some tropes that might be upsetting some people though. We got used to the RTD era of single season arcs with the resolution at the finale.
We got used to companions lasting one season, and leaving in the finale.
Already we have the Williams's leaving in episode 11. And last season we had to deal with the fact that not everything was resolved in the season finale.
I think this bothering some people more than they'd like to admit. Or maybe they're happy admitting it. That they want everything wrapped up in a neat little package.
Speaking just personally, just for me, I wouldn't mind at all if the entire of matt smiths run as the Doctor was a single multi-season arc, with timey wimey paradoxes, and things we'd never seen before, and hidden Easter Eggs that made sense only when rewatching two or three years later, and somehow all tied into the 50th anniversary year.
I wouldn't mind that at all.
So long as the individual episodes are keeping me entertained week after week, I don't care how quickly or slowly the arc seems to move.
I mean, we had Karen admit in some video that she'd be back in some way next season. That could be in cameo mode, as the Doctor is visiting things from his past, possibly in past episodes for example. It could also be the scene at Lake Silencio. Because maybe the Doctor dying at the lake, isn't resolved in this season.
Now, if that happens to be the case, I'm sure there'll be many people who'll shout foul. And they'll cry that Moff promised them it would all resolve itself in the finale.
I'm not sure he ever did. And even if he did, he lies. Remember?
I'll just sit back and say *Bring on the Christmas episode* and resolve to judge the finale on its own merits, not as how it fits or doesn't fit my preconceptions of an arc heavy episode.
has felt a lil disjointed. There is just something bugging me, like we are seeing things completely out of context. I know they moved when episodes around but it feels more than that. I have really enjoyed all the episodes (with Night Terrors being the weakest link to me so far) but its been nagging me like crazy that things haven't been adding up and Moff has done it before (ie the Doctor going backwards when the Universe was collapsing and leaving hints and clues to Amy)... it has that kind of feel, like there is someone else manipulating time.
Haven't been able to read a single post on here yet, and I've still got last weekend's Docback to catch up on too (which, to be honest with you, will probably not get read now - sorry!) but I wanted to let you know I'll (hopefully) be back in the near future. Only two more to go and we're done until Christmas! How exciting! Time permitting, I'll try and post another 'Guess The Word' for next weekend, either on this Docback, or the new one appearing on Friday. I had it ready for the last episode, but work, a trans-Atlantic flight and more work got in the way. Apologies. Did I even give the answers to the last 'Guess The Word'? Does anybody even care anymore??! Probably not. I'll try and check back tomorrow. Keep Docbacking folks!
I was just explaining this to someone the other day, a friend of mine who'd been a fellow "Lost" viewer and trying to urge him into getting started with rebooted Who. Because even as much as how good the show looked at the 2005 reboot, as far as the cinematagraphy and overall production value, as compared to the standard of the original series (a main thing that's always turned me off of wanting to go back and watch any of those shows, it's so campy and cheesy), you look at it now in 2011 and it's even SO FAR better, it practically makes 2005 now look low rent. lol I mean it genuinely looks as good as any quality feature film every week.
as I talked about before, that was my guess of the unrevealed twist in this episode, that in that climactic scene we were not in what was assumed Amy's nightmare room, but the Doctor's... well, I've since watched the Confidential episode tied into this one, and unless they're just blatantly lying, they straight out say that that WAS indeed Amy's room, and not the Doctor's.
Take 2, using - instead of single quotations
Moffat actually dealing with implications of time travel is lazy stuff? This was hardly tackled before Moffat; most of the time time travel and the TARDIS hav been treated only as a glorified shuttle bus, there only to get the protagonists to some distant destination in time and/or space, with time travel not mattering at all during the adventure itself. Then, hop on board the TARDIS and go to the next point. And, in the classic series, you always had the time travelling villains meeting the Doctor in sequential order - their next appearance was always after the last one, despite the fact that both the hero and the villain are time travelers! Now, we're dealing with having meetings out of order, the consequences of having foreknowledge (knowing you can't rescue Melody because you've found out she already has been raised by the Silents, knowing your future death).
As to who the Teselecta are - that's not the right question at all. The Teselecta is the SHIP that they are in, the one that is actually the shape changing robot. They aren't a race.
And yes, there has been some telling and not showing, but some of that is going to be inevitable. And, sometimes you have to pay attention to what is being said. Things said in some episodes provide links for what had been happening in other episodes. For example, the crew of the Teselecta mentioning that River had killed the Doctor on behalf of the Order of the Silence and the Academy of the Question. Well, you had seen in A Good Man Goes To War Kovarian and her ilk taking the baby to be raised. Odds are that she's tied in with the Order of the Silence and the Academy of the Question. There was also the comment about knowing where she was being taken - we had already seen it in Day of the Moon - it was the creepy orphanage where the Silence raised her.
-The Time Lords used to 'manage' time-related issues for the universe - so where did these little buggers come from? The planet of Deus ex Machina?-
No. The Time Lords are gone now, so is there really anyone 'managing' time-related issues now? These people elected themselves to do it for humanity. Also note that Captain Jack was originally mentioned as working for the Time Agency. Where did THOSE buggers come from? Most likely they're from the same place (and Moffat should know since he wrote both episodes). I'm sure we'll be seeing more of them later.
Really, it sounds like you're getting impatient for answers. Many people got used to arcs being small things that wrapped up at the end of the season while RTD was writing it. It doesn't necessarily work that way now, and you just have to accept it. It's normal for many series now to not wrap up the arc neat and tidy. Sam Tyler didn't get back to 2006 after the end of his first season. John Crichton didn't get everything solved and get back to Earth at the end of the first season of Farscape. The crew of Battlestar Galactica didn't find Earth and take care of the Cylons by the end of their first season. Agent Cooper didn't find out who killed Laura Palmer at the end of the first season of Twin Peaks. Commander Sinclair and the crew of Babylon 5 didn't finish the Shadow War, get the corruption in Earthforce exposed and bring in the Third Age all by the end of Season 1.
You just need to show patience. Moffat has shown he's in for a long game, and season 5 showed the first indications of this. Complaining about not having all the answers now is like complaining that a murder hasn't been solved when you're only halfway through the novel (or show). What you're calling lazy stuff is only stuff that hasn't been completely revealed yet. We're far from being done with the Silence, so there should be more answers as things go forward.
Your words describe the *exact* reason why he got the role in the first place when the makers of the show were looking for somebody much older. In fact, they expressly said 'nobody young - we're going old this time around' and Matt changed *everybody's* mind. I think we're very lucky to have found him and there's much more to come from him yet.
The first draft of series 7, episode 1 is officially one week old today. Hurray! It's by no means finished, but it's well on the way to becoming my favourite episode written for Matt so far. He'll get the chance to do new things with the character and we'll see things we thought we'd *never* see him doing. It's certainly changed my mind about wanting to skip to 2013 for the big anniversary. 2012 is going to be very significant indeed.
It's good to be back and I look forward to being here in a bigger capacity closer to the weekend. I must also add, it's nice to see you get the concept of a 'story arc'. Just like all the other shows you mentioned, Doctor Who can play the long-game too. And it will. Does that mean we won't get *any* answers in the short-run? Of course not. We'll get answers as we go along, but we won't get *all* of them in one go. Where would be the fun in that? And with that, I must depart!
Although, it has to be said, the surprise appearance of Caitlin Blackwood helped with that. At risk of sounding like a dirty old man, the fleeting appearances of young Amelia always put a smile on my face.... I got more emotional weight from that opening sequence of the 11th hour, with fish custard and all that, and packing the case, then i did from large chunks of the 4 years that preceded it..especially the RTD eps. (I find him a heavy handed writer, but thats a debate for another day)
You guys keep doing what you are doing. Glad B5 was mentioned, its one of my favs, and a fantastic example of how the long game with story arcs can work. Besides, if we got all th answers from the Moff in one go, these Docbacks would die out, since we would no longer have anything to debate or theorise about...know what I mean?
[Argh, quote problem still not fixed.]
Not true. His Holmes-less dinosaurs-surviving-in-modern-times novel _The Lost World_ was one of the most influential science-fiction novels of all time, influencing everything from Edgar Rice Burroughs' dinosaur tales to _King Kong_, _Land of the Lost_, and _Jurassic Park_. His two short stories about resurrected mummies provided the template for nearly all subsequent resurrected-mummy stories. His short story "When the World Screamed" has influenced many science fiction stories, including several episodes of _Doctor Who_ (both old and Nu) and the most recent episode of _Torchwood_.
Check out the two Wordsworth Classics collections _Tales of Unease_ and _The Lost World and Other Stories_.
I see in reports on shooting of the Christmas special that's going on that Amy and Rory will be seen in the special. They'll be at their home. No mention of Rory's new car, but it wouldn't surprise me to see that there too.
I don't think Conan Doyle was exactly dragged kicking and screaming into resurrecting Holmes. After all, if he'd really wanted to kill Holmes he would have had Watson find the body, rather than just signs of a scuffle -- thus having the certainty of Holmes' death rest not on Watson's skill as a detective but on his much greater skill as a physician. When a writer kills a character offscreen and doesn't deliver a body, the way is pretty clearly being left deliberately open to bring the character back.
at the end when the Doctor is dropping them off at home and gives Rory the car, I liked the interaction between the Doctor and Rory. The Doctor's attitude showing that they're mates, and the way the Doctor did the mock friendly punch (along with the Rory impression). It's a long step from when he first picked up Rory (let alone from his opinion of Rory in The Eleventh Hour). Even in The Impossible Astronaut, while you had him greeting Rory the Roman, it still seemed that Rory was an adjunct - more the finish of the phrase Amy and Rory rather than just liking Rory for being himself. It's really refreshing to see that things have developed further and that the Doctor can pal around with Rory that way.
We certainly wouldn't have had any of this back when Eric Saward was script editor. It just goes to show that you don't always have to have the Doctor and the companions moping and whining at each other in order to try to create false interest.
I'd agree. Holmes might be the first one that everyone remembers, but Doyle did write several novels and stories about Professor Challenger, and most people would certainly recognize The Lost World even if they didn't immediately realize that it was Doyle who wrote the story.
Sticking with the blue V red theme.
At the end of the episode:
Amy's nails: blue
Doc's Bowtie: Blue
Rory's Car: Red (Oh dear does not bode well for him me thinks)
Also glad to see the return of the classic tweed jacket
you might be onto something there. On the other hand, a convertible like that demands to be red, not blue. Red sportsters are cool. Blue sportsters aren't cool. The Doctor would want Rory to have a cool ride.
Yes, nice to see the classic tweed. It does raise a question now in my mind though whether we should be paying attention to tweed vs. the other coat as much as red vs. blue.
I think we will be building to another jump around time ending ala the pandorica (sic).
My gut reaction was when the Dr was dying LKH the "Fish fingers and custard" was delivered by Amy herself, showing her renewed faith in the Dr.
The coat might be just another indicator like the fez was.
The production values are rather amazing, all things being equal.
And, for my money, I firmly believe DW represents the best use of HD photography on television right now. If anyone watching hasn't had a chance to see the eps in *good* HD (BBCA doesn't have a terribly large HD presence at the moment, unfortunately), 'tis totally worth exploring this show in HD via Blu-Ray, via Zune on XBOX Live, etc. 'Tis stunning to simply "look at".
When the season is over, you might want to do an interview with Ian Levine sometime. I think he will be able to provide a lot of interesting things for a DocBack -- and maybe (by then) he might have good news about 2/e and Shada (and possibly other projects, too).
...stay safe all!!!!
Horn- I just howled at your post!! BWWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Gotilk- YOU'RE EATING HAIR!!!!!!
MOV- Nice to see you back, and thanks for the info regarding series 7. Now, if you could just tell me what it's about...... ;))
Doctom- thanks for the info on the Xmas special. I am trying to be spoiler-less with it as I just love the magic around that time, but your post didn't give much away.
I shall be back this coming Saturday, I promise, where we shall all have to face the fact there is only 2 more episodes until the end.
An impossible astronaut will rise from the deep...and this is where it begins.
Your speculation on Old Amy returning as a villain brought to mind two issues from this series that have been bothering me that could be resolved by her return. The first was why the Doctor apologized to Amy (at least it looked like Amy) right before he was killed in TIA. The second was why Old Amy was crying after Rory left her alone talking to the Doctor in the garden during TGWW.
When the Doctor "meets" Old Amy he is faced with something rather unusual: A person that he completely trusts who hates him. If there is some reason why he HAS to die at Lake Silencio, who would be better to ask to do it. She's still Amy, so she sees that it has to be done but doesn't like the idea. But current Amy still has too much affection for him to follow through with it, which might be why he would apologize to her for letting the situation reach that point.
Of course that might be TOO neat of an explanation, and it does have some holes in it (namely the fact that Old Amy seemingly dies), but it seemed like something to chew on anyway.
I think some things will surprise us. I do think the Doctor dies. I also think he tried something to survive beyond death, but he doesn't know if it will work or not. I think he is truly afraid. I also think it will, of course, work.
I also think we have seen elements of the answer before us -- time is constantly being rewritten. We see this in the Christmas Special. We also see the Doctor is trying to give some sort of message through his weird adventures in time to Amy and Rory. Or was it to River? "Come here"? She does it to him -- she probably got it from him!
I do feel "Old Amy" is still out there. Whether we will see her or if she will go looking for Jenny and become a part of the "plot lines which can be picked up again but don't have to" -- I don't know.
Sorry about the loss, and I hope you take care of what you need to.
I know that wasn't much of a spoiler per se (SPOILER: given we've had statements from Gillan and Darvill that they'd be back), but with future episodes it's best to be extra cautious so as to not spoil that for someone trying to be completely spoiler free.
If and when Old Amy is cured, wouldn’t she just join the other “ghosts” that inhabit that ward?
Also, on the Doctor being shot: he began regenerating and that was halted as he was shot and killed. But, when River Song was shot by the Nazis she taunted them for even trying to wound her while she was still regenerating, or, as she was finishing the process.
Is that consistent or not?
-as for already mis-hearing one bit of this show, I’m steeling my ears with transcripts...
The Tessalectra Cap’t Kirk said:
'You killed the Doctor on the orders
of the movement known as the Silence
and Academy of the Question.’
-And, this is from the Xmas special, that song which was sung....I’m unsure if it is just a pop song or written specifically for the show. If it is the latter, it may or may not be trite:
When you're alone, silence is all you see,
When you're alone, silence is all you'll be.
Give me your heart to come to me.
Obviously, silence is contrasted with sound, music in particular and being alone is contrasted against being with someone. So, it may just be cutesy lyrics, if it was written specifically for the show.
No arguement there.
and bare in mind, I don't in anyways dislike Baker, he's just not my go-to favorite the way he is for the vast majority fo whovians.
But I'll be the first to admit that almost all of my favorite stories are Tom Baker ones. I just don't usually feel that he's the main reason why they are my favorite.
Great to hear that the scripting is already underway for series 7! And even better that it gets such kudos right from the first draft.
Thus far 'the impossible astronaut' is probably my favorite season premiere so far, so the fact that season 7 will be starting out really strong is a good endorsement indeed. Especially what you said about it changing your mind about skipping to the big 50th.
Yeah I know, but it's close enough. My inner evolutionary ecologist tends to reason that given the enormous expanse of time and space the Doctor criss-crosses, he rarerly ever enounters the *exact* same species, just things that obviously share some connection at some point in their history.
Nimon(oids) really are one of my favourite monsters and I love the way it was used here as a monstrous mirror to the Doctor himself, something wise and ancient and slightly magical, turning fear into self-sacrificing loyalty.
QUOTE: Also, on the Doctor being shot: he began regenerating and that was halted as he was shot and killed. But, when River Song was shot by the Nazis she taunted them for even trying to wound her while she was still regenerating, or, as she was finishing the process.: END QUOTE
Maybe it makes a difference that she was shot with bullets while the Doctor was shot with Special Green Ray?
If not, it is a MUST.
One of the best audios. Written by Paul Cornell. I've told him that I thought his audio is like how the 8th Doctor's TV movie should have been like -- all through time and space.
But this is the story for you. Listen to it.
Nice catch on River's line, bongodummy. I agree there's something there.
Doctom, I like your spirit above too. Very refreshing and makes me much less interested in Plan B.
MOV ... damn, man, how am I going to get you to read my last 3 mega half-arsed theories now without boring the snot out of everyone? I guess I'm not. Oh well, moving on ...
And Sam, I'd ask you the same question except couched in condolences and best wishes.
Although I'll be returning to the UK empty-handed, my trip has at least allowed me to catch up on more episodes of Firefly. What a bloody great show this is! Next time I'm over here I should set up a meeting with Joss Whedon just so I can shake his hand. The man is a genius. I'll have to try and catch up with more of his shows over the coming weeks and months. Any suggestions?
The opening to series 7 is going to be almost impossible to top, at least in terms of the concept. It's just totally barmy. Still not sure how it's going to translate to screen yet, but if they can pull it off, it's going to be a classic. The Confidential team are going to have a riot filming the behind-the-scenes stuff, I'm sure of it.
We all hope to see you back here very shortly. I hope things aren't too bad for you at the moment. And regarding series 7, even if I wanted to tell you the basic storyline of the opener (and I don't), I really don't think I could. Well, I *could*, but it's just hard to explain and still make it sound as amazing as it actually is, if you know what I mean?
RE: What other Whedon should you watch?
Erm, all of it.
Not all his shows got cancelled at ridiculously premature moments-
Buffy and Angel are well worth the watch- but come with a WARNING- that's over 200 hours- a lot of transatlantic flights and train journeys.
You can do without a few chunks of season 1 of Dollhouse, it's a bit a chore, yet there's a lot of great stuff in there when it's focusing on the Season Arc.
I think of that Moffat bloke ;-) and Whedon as Kindred spirits, RTD was clearly a Whedon fan too.
If you do make it thru Angel, check out Ben Edlund's episodes in season 4 and 5- there's some bonkers stuff going on there.
I've been told by a million people (literally) that they're making a modern day re-telling of Sherlock Holmes. What a wonderful idea! While they're at it, they should also make a show about a time-travelling alien in a blue box. Nobody else would think of doing that either!
He wrote at least one episode of FIREFLY too. That guy is bonkers and a genius. THE TICK live action series, while having nothing to do with Whedon, was brilliant; kind of too intelligent to last very long.
If you haven't watched it, Veronica Mars is also very, very much worth the watch. And on the limited hours to watch it front- Only 3 series.
RE: Dollhouse, when it gets going with the story of what the Dollhouse is and Echo's Meta character developing, it's good to excellent- not so many people hung around for that though..
I caught Sherlock on Netflix the other day. Very, very good. To anyone who has not seen it, I'd strongly recommend it. Series 1 is comprised of essentially 3 movies, with the 3rd being my favorite. Can't beat a ticking clock. Plus, Cumberbatch and Freeman are really great in their parts.
As for the CBS version in development, I won't be watching it. I imagine it may be a disappointment in comparison.
RE: the two time streams/two Doctors..
Is it possible that Amy and Rory's not being so bothered about finding Melody is due to the fact that something in the future will effect the past,
consequently they are flipping between two possible presents? One where they are reunited with young Melody (remember the photo in TIA?) and one where they aren't. One where finding Melody is of Vital Importance and one where it's, not so much.
(or it could be that Amy and Rory, pretty much didn't know Amy was pregnant for most of the 9 months so the mother/Daughter bond is weak)
These two possible presents could be one where River is the Impossible Astronaut, who was once programmed to kill the Doctor, and one where the Ponds/Williams raised Melody but where she MUST appear to kill the Doctor Anyway, to stop a universe destroying Paradox?
Does this make sense to anyone? or should I just go to bed?
Okay, I'm going to do nutshells around Half-Arsed Theories 749-751 on the grounds that MOV is a busy fellow but might get interested maybe ...
HAT #749: Deconstructing the Doc's interactions with devices in TGWW - the time lens, magtape recorder, 70s flippy clock and the time regulator - we find out what the Red Settings on the Library Sonic actually do.
HAT #750: Creating a whole new explanation of Quantum superposition and equating same with TimeyWimeyWibblyWobbliness, we go on to provide a hard-science foundation for CAL and the TARDIS. On the way we rescue River Song and save the Doctor despite his 100% certain death. Nothing up the sleeve, no hey-presto, just physics and engineering.
HAT #751: In which we invoke the shades of Borges and Derrida to prove the Doctor is Dionysus, exposing the classical basis for the Silents, Nymphettes and Nurses in his circle, and showing the Sonic is a Fennel stalk.
Yes, I know these theories are more insane than what's actually going on ... but then again what's actually going on can be rewritten ...
To have a forum that isn't simply one long suck-up to TPTB of this series IF members of its production team are actively involved (has this ever been truly confirmed?) in the forum?
No real discussion can exist.
Some might think it's nice to communicate with team members, but all I've seen is the tendency for the docback to turn into a love-fest where real, considered criticism is ignored if not dumped. This is unfortunate because it means TPTB only get the good news and never have to take the not-so-good quite so seriously (if they are actually paying attention here - but that really isn't the point).
Be cheerful! Play along! Have faith!
No, no thanks.
Prefer not to be manipulated.
...and check out previous Docbacks before making statements like you have.
The links are at the top- go have a delve, come back, and then tell me we all play nicely nicely.
The first half of the series, in particular Curse of the Black Spot got absolutely mullered by people who have been frequenting this forum since its inception.
Night Terrors received much of the same criticism, and with all due respect, if you're talking about MOV he took it on the chin, knowing that all things will not please all people.
That's the beauty.
But you ARE forgetting one primary thing- those who come on here LOVE THE SHOW for the main, even though sometimes critical of the product. We don't necessarily come here to slag off the show most of us grew up with.
If you want to think that way, then go ahead. I can guarantee you you're in a minority.
Oh, and another small matter- you don't have to post here if you don't want to.
I have been unerringly pleasant. Do everyone here the same courtesy.
Guys, your thoughts and best wishes are so much appreciated you will never know how much.
Caractacus- I will get to read your half arsed theories as now the build up is too much I can hardly bear it!!!
Darthdevious- thank you so much. Will be back soon. (erm..... like today. This place has a fucking magnetic pull that can't be avoided!!)
Horn- thanks for the laughs!!! Look forward to more name spelling ma(d)dness soon!!! BBWWWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Doctom- things are being taken care of as I type. However, I musrt get more involved and that will take me a bit of tme to sort. Things aren't straightforward I'm afraid. Take care!!!
MOV- your wishes mean a great deal, thank you! I now have had to hire Moff look-a-likes in order to get the info I need for series 7. Tell the truth- the yoghurt the Doc spat out in 11th hour mutates and comes back for revenge, eh? no..? Bugger.....
Dreamfasting- the minotaur was very well done. I too liked the Nimon reference. They could have played it differently, but a nice shout out to times past doesn't hurt now and again!! What makes it more special is when it is something you really dig!!!
And to others- please take care of yourselves, have fun, create theories... we don't have too much time left.
Oh, and I agree- the Doc IS going to die.
The only real reason we could take offence at Timesfool is if we suspect there's some truth in what he says.
Now we enjoy being here. We enjoy the subject matter, the camaraderie, the speculation and the fact that we're lucky enough to have found each other.
But we seem to have someone's ear, too, and that could make us seem obsequious.
Obviously the person we think is visiting us doesn't want that any more than Timesfool does - he would much prefer to be thought of as just another poster.
So ... that's cool. If someone happens to be a bit closer to the production staff than the rest of us, well, sure, isn't that to be expected in a small world?
.... more a gentle reminder that all is not what he thinks it is, and he need only visit a few of our previous forums to see that we don't always agree.
As for MOV- I AM sure you will all agree it is better to have than have not.
This is SJW definately signing off until Saturday.
Take care all!!!!
We do have discussions here and we value and appreciate different perspectives..
At the same time, we've agreed by showing up to observe a code of conduct Which emerged out of how most of us were treating everyone anyway- CIVILIZATION IS BREAKING OUT!.
Critical things are often said here, and I like to think we've found there's a way to say them that can be real discussion that does simultaneously reflect love for the show whilst usually not making the common error of turning into anger because the show isn't meeting what our individual expectations were.
Merrick sums it up in the code of conduct with very simply a quote from those other time travellers in the phone box, simply- "be excellent to each other"
We don't pull our punches here because by and large, we aren't interested in punching something 'til it does what we want.
Like Craig Ferguson said "Intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism".
to have a forum that isn't simply one long suck-up to TPTB of this series IF members of its production team are actively involved?
Answer - Very possible.
As I'm sure many other members can point out, the weight of evidence is fairly substantive.
Even before March 2011, when I believe the original Man_Of_Virtue account first landed on the Docbacks (to be quickly replaced with the more aptly named Man_Of_Vertue account) the level of discourse here was often heated, and at times negative about the show. But it never had the sort of acidic bile so common in other talkbacks.
I think it's because on one level, most of us grew up with the show in the 70's and 80's, so being highly critical of the show for its budget, special effects, dodgy acting and ropey sets, is very much par for our course.
And when it came to recent episodes like the Curse of the Black Spot, I wasn't the only one who was quite negative about it to the point where some Virtuous docbacker felt the need to defend the episode as being fun for kids or something. The one thing you did not see on the Docback, was a sudden decrease in criticism for fear that anyone had overstepped a mark. We disagreed, but politely.
If there was any person(s) from the show reading these docbacks (and there might be) they won't see universal love and adoration for every episode. But they won't see a bunch of mindless cynical cries of THAT WAS SHITE or MY FIVE YEAR OLD CRAPS BETTER THAN THAT or calls for the writing staff to be murdered at the next convention. I've seen stuff like that on Twitter, and in other talkbacks.
So, my point is I guess, that I disagree with your implication. But politely.
about the Man_Of_Virtue / Man_Of_Vertue first posting reference I made there,
Mar 31, 2011 12:48:55 PM CDT
You can take The Doctor out of Paisley...
It was, I believe, the first post by the man in question.
We still don't know who he is, and frankly, I don't want to know. He's a fellow poster who loves the show and sometimes posts tidbits about the future. That's good enough for me.
I'm a rare poster here but find reading the Docbacks fascinating and enjoyable, I certainly see no evidence of sucking up to TPTB. MOV has recently stated that the regeneration issue will be addressed but what about the Valeyard, has anyone asked if he will be addressed?
ALSO a reason why this place seems to be filled with a certain type of people. Why you can count on more interesting conversations than a LOT of other places on the Interwebbernets, with far less of the usual nastiness. While I love the rules... great idea... we pretty much stuck to them already.
Love you all, be well. Have a fantastic day.
We will always be picking up new Docbackers. The culture here is one we've been creating for ourselves. The rules express it well - but they're a representation of us - we weren't generated by them.
Now back to the subject at hand. And I don't mean next week's ep because it looks pretty irrelevant to most of our concerns. I mean The Wedding of River Song.
1) Who will River wed?
1.1) If you answered ~The Doctor~, well, which Doctor?
2) ~One last trip old girl~ / ~He really does definitely, absolutely 100% die~ - well, why would he want to?
2.1) If you answered "To avoid a fate worse than death", what fate?
2.2) And which Doctors remain alive?
3) Does Silence Fall?
3.1) If you answered "Of course, stupid, the whole arc has been leading to that", well, what does it mean for Silence to Fall?
4) Who kills Kovarian?
5) What is Dorium's game?
6) Why don't Rory and Amy give a toss about their baby?
7) What's with the Pyramid?
8) What's with the Patches?
9) What's with the Viking?
10) What's with Churchill
11) What's with Time going Wrong?
Eleven seems like a good number to stop at ...
Closing time - time for you to go out, go out into the world.
Closing time - turn the lights up over every boy and every girl.
Closing time - one last call for alcohol, so finish your whiskey or beer.
Closing time - you don't have to go home but you can't stay here.
I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
Take me home...
Closing time - time for you to go back to the places you will be from.
Closing time - this room won't be open 'til your brothers or you sisters
So gather up your jackets, and move it to the exits - I hope you have found
Closing time - every new beginning comes from some other beginning'send.
Yeah, I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
Take me home...
Closing time - time for you to go back to the places you will be from...
I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
I know who I want to take me home.
Take me home...
Closing time - every new beginning comes from some other beginning'send...
Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end... I wonder..
1. Will a wedding actually feature in the episode or is the title just a bit of a tease (akin to "Let's Kill Hitler" which involved remarkably little killing of Hitler)? We've certainly seen "I was going to marry you"-type references and the tux-wearing Doctor in LKH looks like he just came from a deteur to a wedding.
2. As audacious as this arc has been, I have a hard time getting into "oh look, the hero of the series is dead" plotlines because assuming they aren't ending the series, no matter how far the bluff is carried, it's not a question of what appears to happen there, it's a question of how it gets undone.
3. A part of me keeps imagining that the Silence are fans of The Sopranos and the question is actually "How does this end?" :)
4. I'm not clear enough about who Kovarian is to be concerned about how she gets killed. The nature of "endless bitter war" is still too murky - it seems like we have a private little time war that may technically have no beginning (because of time travel, both sides legitimately see the other side as having started it)
5. Dorium is a strange character - although slain (assuming that his head was a vital organ and they aren't going to pull a Men-in-Black on us), I can't help but wonder if we will see him again earlier in his life. But at the moment, I don't see him having a game beyond what we've already seen - a black market trader who owes everyone favours.
6. They care, it's just all resolved ... they've gotten to see her grow up. However, there is still an open question of how the earlier incarnation of Melody ends up in New York and why she was dying at the end of DotM.
7. Pyramids scream broken timelines - having played one too many games of Civilization over the years, I looked at and thought "oh, the Americans completed that wonder first in this run of the game"
8. I really like the theory that the patches have an image of a Silence - so that you never lose sight of them.
9. The viking ... um ... I'm kind of stumped here. If the Americans built the Pyramids, did the Vikings build the Apollo Program? The first thought that crossed my mind when I first saw it was that this was an aged version of a bitter, angry Rory.
10. Different timeline, different Churchill? Or different timeline, same Churchill?
11. The Silence seem to have themselves the prototype Tardis. A lot could go wrong in a hurry if that thing works. An alternate wild idea that occured to me last night was to wonder how Sexy will react to the Doctor dying? Would the Tardis itself go berzerk? ("The pilot is dead"). If River kills the Doctor, then did the Tardis, sensing this would happen, blow itself up to try to stop her? I found it interesting that the Doctor's attempt to cross timelines in The Girl Who Waited produced the same sound effect from the Tardis as it made in The Pandorica Opens.
Everyone who posts here is free to criticise the show in a constructive fashion, with 'constructive' being the key word. People who come here and say nonsense along the lines of 'that last episode was utter wank' or 'I've seen my dog shit out better episodes than that' without giving any kind of explanation are pretty much ignored, and rightly so. Do I like each and every episode of Doctor Who since it started in 1963? Of course not. There are episodes I really don't like, either because the storyline was bad, or the production values were awful, but if you asked me, I could tell you specifically *why* I don't like them in more detail. And then someone could tell me that they disagree and those episodes are actually their favourites and tell me why. If anyone from the production team was posting here and decided they didn't like what they were reading, they would just stop coming here, wouldn't they? It's common sense.
And my apologies in advance if this has been covered in a previous DB. I'm new here (to the DBs, not AICN) and while I've enjoyed skimming previous DBs it would be a daunting task to read them all, even just from this series, top to bottom. Enjoyable, surely, but daunting.
If, hypothetically, the Doctor that dies at the lake turns out to be the original Doctor, and the continuing adventures are carried out by his Flesh counterpart, what impact would that have on your attachment to the show? What if it was left unanswered which one died and which one continued on? The Doctor himself said that they are the same person, but would you see it that way? Even with the same actor(s), writers, etc., would it not feel the same?
Personally I'd like to think I wouldn't be bothered by either scenario.
At least they are if you're writing for a tabloid newspaper and it's a slow news day. Yet again, they're making up facts and figures and they spew out a headline without taking the time to actually understand how tv ratings are calculated. You wouldn't catch Spike or Lynda doing such nonsense. I think I'm officially past the point of being annoyed now, and all I can do is sigh. And post about it here, of course.
Not that ratings even matter a whole hell of a lot, since the BBC doesn't exactly operate on the American advertising model of sweeps and ratings and advertising revenue.
The far more important figure, is the Audience Appreciation Index. A sort of measure of how much the show was enjoyed, as a form of entertainment.
And the AI for Doctor Who has been consistently top notch since its return in 2005.
Tabloids used to be where todays fish and potatoes went to die tomorrow.
Now, they are none-too-subtle adverts for other wings of the owners multi-platform-owning empires.
Example of a story seen in The Sun - Local man nabs Sky TV for less than 2 pounds a month. The news story (oh, I wish the talkback bug would let me put that in inverted quotes) then goes into some details about some offer that Sky is running.
Who owns Sky? Who owns The Sun? You hardly need to have scored a double delta on your third attempt at the Prydonian Academy to work out it's a load of all bollox.
I could accept a Ganger Doctor.. IF he had a tattoo that read "THIS IS A FAKE.
And in all seriousness. I am attached to the "original", anything else would feel off.
It would turn us into a nation of Rose Tylers... Ick.
It's been covered a little before, but not in much detail by many of the readers.
I'll be honest, it would depend on how it was done. If it's done really well, I'd be okay with it. If not, I'd probably ignore it. Retcon it away in my own mind, and continue to enjoy the show.
The thing is, Doctor Who isn't like a serial like Spiderman, for example. The creators of spiderman writing in the 60's, had a very limited conception of the character. And as the comic medium grew and expanded, the character remained a youth in the ever present ever moving *now*. So the writers at Marvel found it necessary to change things about his past, and gloss over them. Flash Thompson never went to Viet Nam in the modern comics, did he?
So they are able to ret-con Spidermans origins on a regular basis. Sometimes by massive amounts. Like the Ben Reilly clone. Or the revelation of his secret identity. Or his marriage to Mary Jane. And then some other writer can come along and undo all of that, either to revert to the original set up, or to spin it off in his own new direction. And the fans just accept it.
Doctor Who hasn't done that sort of thing really in 50 years. But it's very possible that if they started doing that now, (making such large alterations to the show as saying well the Doctor we're looking at now is a recent clone, and the original Doctor we've looked at for 48 years, died by a lake) that fandom would expect some future writers down the line to do a comic-book like reset, and undo that particular change in the future.
The group mind of fandom seems geared like that in some ways. We're resistant to change, it seems. Or perhaps the people who write the stuff fandom embraces merely believes that to be true. Either way the end result is the same.
No comic book character ever stays dead. (Bucky and Uncle Ben both came back, as did Captain Marvel, the long held never-resurrected icons of the permanently dead)
It seems all the geek audience can really tolerate, is the illusion of change. So butler Alfred will never retire, Aunt May will never die, and Bruce Banner will never find a cure.
We all like and dislike things for different reasons. It's one thing to say "this is not for me" and explain why; it is another thing to mock everything without realizing the good which was done.
For example, I've not criticized "The God Complex" here. I appreciate many things in it, and what was attempted in it. But it really was one of my least liked episodes of New Who. I give it a 6/10 but -- I give the writing, the production values, the acting 10/10; the 6/10 is because it didn't connect to me and I have strong disagreements with the underlying themes in it. But I also appreciate it for what it is, and in that I give it a 10/10, it was great; it reminded me of Pullman but an intelligent, respectable Pullman who I can agree to disagree with!
Yes, I know, the rating game is a bad one. Some people want to take down great shows. But they always find the worst way to make comparisons...
Doctor Who is still strong. It's still #1 as for scripted, non-soap shows from the UK. It's great! Tell everyone, even when I have criticism, it is still my favorite show of ALL TIME and if it is mine, it is many others. And for many others, even if it isn't their favorite show, it is still a great one for them.
Next thing you know, they will tell us "Sherlock Holmes ratings are down. Not as many people are reading A Scandal in Bohemia today as they did when Doyle was alive."
Anything scoring over 85 is considered Excellent.
The average AI score for BBC1 in the second quarter of 2011 rose to 82.
This is the highest quarterly score in the channel's history.
The average AI for BBC Two rose by a point during the last quarter, to 84 while BBC Three, remained static on 84 and BBC Four dropped one point to 84.
And as for the ratings, for anyone who's interested... the latest figures available are for The Girl Who Waited.
It had a final consolidated rating of 7.60 million viewers with a share of 30.8% of the audience.
Consolidated figures include those who record and watch the programme within seven days. The final rating is much more accurate than the initial overnight figure and is based on the actual broadcast time of the programme, rather than its scheduled time.
BBC One's highest performing programme of the night was the launch of Strictly Come Dancing, with 8.31 million viewers
Against Doctor Who, the new Ant and Dec Game show, Red and Black, achieved just 4.6 million viewers.
This was far far below the aspirations ITV1 had for the show and 2 million down on the previous week.
Conclusion : The ratings for Doctor Who are just fine and dandy. Dandy like a Pertwee shirt, I tell you.
Interesting that you should raise the topic of comics and retconning, because at this point in the last series I was arguing (vehemently) that the entire Whoniverse was about to be rebooted. I had a very solidly researched and thought-out theory that pointed with 99% certainty to the universe being rebooted in "The Big Bang" with the only remnant of the old universe being the Doctor who was protected by the time and matter locks in the Pandorica. I was looking forward to seeing how the Time Lord Victorious would deal with both a fully restored Gallifrey and, of course, the Daleks at full strength.
Instead, the old universe was brought back through a few billion atoms in the Pandorica and the memories of the all-powerful Amy Pond. C'est la vie.
So I seriously doubt we will be given the adventures of Flesh Doctor (though we may have seen some of them already and just not been told) because Moffat probably wouldn't want to take that risk. It would generate a heck of an argument amongst the fans, though.
But it is certainly possible that some of the stories we've seen in this series were the Flesh Doctor in action. There's the odd switching of coats, the emphasis on shoes. I don't even want to speculate on what was going on with the tux in LKH. That episode was the first appearance of the new coat, the same episode where he's given 32 minutes to live which by wild (?) coincidence just so happens to be the exact span of time between when everyone shows up at Lake Silencio and the Doctor's time of death. Weird goings on, to be sure.
It IS certainly possible and if it's the Doctor being very clever to save himself, well, that's different from a permanent switch. There are quite a lot of clues that suggest *something* is going on with the Doctor.. stetsons, coats, apples, top hat and tails, shoes, folded time lines, rory speaking in past tense, clones, possible second visits to cloning facilities and Avatars...
arrgh, can't they just show the last two episodes this week?
And I enjoyed The God Complex very mucho! Godd one by Toby.
If I recall correctly this was a story that didn't make it into season 5? Or did I make that up?
If not, so then even more congrats to fitting the story so well into this season!
You know that was just a freudian slip right?
Some things are there in the episode for dramatic purposes. Not everything is a hidden deep secret to be revealed at a later date.
That was to show that in his mind at least Rory was already set to leave the TARDIS.
1 - Get job as journalist, 2 - Write entertainment column, 3 - Write what you wrote here so that readers (and fellow journalists) can understand how ratings work, 4 - Regularly print the final ratings and make that into a story instead of talking about the overnight ratings that mean absolutely nothing (except to your fellow journalists). There. Let me know how you get on. By the way, I have Miss Day's telephone number if you need some help getting into the industry. She knows people. And may I suggest your first headline? 'Vernon Kay Is *NOT* Exterminating Doctor Who In The Ratings War'. You'll be head of the newspaper shortly thereafter and then a judge on Britain's Got Talent after that. That last one is purely optional though.
I see that it works that way. However, also i am harbouring a secret fantasy that it also works in another way..
I have this crazy multiple pasts impinging on the present idea, and that kind of sort of might maybe be able to be fudged into supporting evidence.
Occam's Razor is no fun at all.
The Hounds of Baskerville is pretty much finished in terms of post-production, with very few minor tweaks needed, with A Scandal In Belgravia next. Again, it's too soon to say, but I'm expecting an early 2012 showing for the second series. There's really nothing left to cause further delays in tx dates. Fingers crossed! If the next series doesn't win a single Emmy then we might as well all pack our bags and go home to watch soap operas because it's looking absolutely glorious so far.
Or will their fast tracked modernised Sherlock have to wait until 2013?
We'll have to wait and see.
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing an Irene Adler who isn't some hot Tomb Raider type like the Guy Ritchie movie.
Let's remember people... Adler *beat* Holmes. She was *smarter* than him. And Holmes was pissed about it. You'd never get that from the recent RDJ adaptation.
I'm looking forward to the new series like everyone else.
Whilst she's still hot, she's also incredibly smart. Well, you'd have to be to beat Cumberbatch's Sherlock, wouldn't you? Disclaimer: I'm allowed to call her 'hot' despite my marital status because my other half called her 'hot' first. And she's always right.
So just catching up with the Docback again. Hope things sort themselves out for you, Sam, and welcome back MOV!
Now, by the looks of it, Caractacus's call for volunteers for Project Thrysus seems to have met with a lukewarm response, and I'd be inclined to believe that even if the end of s6 still leaves some of us with the desire to take a glove to the face of TPTB, it would still be too soon to try and come up with a comprehensive fill-in-all-the-gaps chrononlogy; the 50th anniversary is the earliest to start becoming concerned, I think; at this moment, it's all about leaving plenty of wiggle room. That said, maybe everyone's just going 'Aargh!' at the thought of theory 749 rampaging its way into (alternative) canon...
On a vaguely similar note, does anyone know for certain if the season 6B theory is now considered canon, and if so, are we about to see another one, just for a laugh? If we are, Season 6BB, for want of a better word, needs Jamie in it, too.
'Right, well, hmm - come along Jamie.'
'But Doctor, you're dead - you died at Lake Silencio.'
'Well, yes, I know that, but I changed my mind.'
'Well, I am a genius, Jamie.'
And in response to thatreillymonster, I too would have a number of reservations with the Doctor being replaced with a flesh duplicate. I made a number of fairly bog-standard observations in a previous docback into the nature of identity and the Doctor's role as an immortal-but-not mythological archetype, so I won't bore you with those, but my biggest reservation is that in my mind it slightly cheapens the Doctor's uniqueness. Yes, I know the gangers were supposedly perfect duplicates, but we know that in the early days of the technology they were unstable, and if Jen was anything to go by, that might leave us with a Doctor who looks like stretch Armstrong or the middle panel of a Bacon triptych, and I for one would classify that as a bad thing. Actually, one of the things that bugs me in all this is that all of this earth cloning tech works so easily on the Doc -that's why I wasn't so keen on the Doctor's daughter, either. By rights I shouldn't be happy with River's ability to have a time head, but that I can live with. Odd how these things work, really.
Joking aside, hope everyone is doing good. Been working OT this week, so just playing catch up. So is Craig the fall to guy now when Amy & Rory are not with the Doctor? Or did the Doctor leave his Fez there, and is missing it? Either way, I am sure it will be another great episode. Also, who cares about the ratings?! The show itself is a cash cow I would think. DVD's/Bluray, toys, clothing, and don't forget.....Doctor Who: The Flamethrower.
1) River will marry Canton because River is, in fact, a bloke.
2) He wants to die because that's how it happens.
2.2) I will not waste your time with trivial fates, which are only marginally worse than death. Suppose we were conquered by an enemy, for example, who didn't understand our wonderful economic system, and so Braniff Airlines and International Harvester and so on all went bust, and millions of Americans who wanted to work couldn't find any jobs anywhere. Or suppose we were conquered by an enemy who was too cheap to take good care of our children and old people. Or suppose we were conquered by an enemy who wouldn't spend money on anything but weapons for World War Three. These are all tribulations we could live with, if we had to — although God forbid.
But suppose we foolishly got rid of our nuclear weapons, our Kool-Aid, and an enemy came over here and crucified us. Crucifixion was the most painful thing which the ancient Romans ever found to do to anyone. They knew as much about pain as we do about genocide. They sometimes crucified hundreds of people at one time. That is what they did to all the survivors of the army of Spartacus, which was composed mostly of escaped slaves. They crucified them all. There were several miles of crosses.
If we were up on crosses, with nails through our feet and hands, wouldn't we wish that we still had hydrogen bombs, so that life could be ended everywhere? Absolutely.
We know of one person who was crucified in olden times, who was supposedly as capable as we or the Russians are of ending life everywhere. But he chose to endure agony instead. All he said was, "Forgive them, Father — they know not what they do."
He let life go on, as awful as it was for him, because here we are, aren't we?
But he was a special case. It is unfair to use Jesus Christ as an exemplar of how much pain and humiliation we ordinary human beings should put up with before calling for the end of everything. I don't believe that we are about to be crucified. No potential enemy we now face has anywhere near enough carpenters.
--Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
3) Yes. Or possibly no.
4) Kovarian is dead?
5) Dorium's game? Contract whist. Obviously.
6) If we'd had more than 5 minutes of Mels, I think that question might have answered itself.
7) Is it part of a very large toblerone?
8) You'll remember how in 'Kevin and Perry go Large', that fine exemplar of the motion picture arts, the DJ eyeball Paul would consume vodka via his eyeball as it got the alcohol into his bloodstream more quickly? Well, something similar is going on here - Kovarian has obviously got massive nicotine withdrawal but she can't have a fag as this is a kid's show and everything. Hence the patches.
9) It all went a bit wrong for Nigel Short.
10) He am the PRESIDENT.
11) These sequences are to show what happens if we don't use our local shops; namely that Pterodactyls attack. I'd have thought this was obvious, really.
If you like Firefly (and Serenity), you might want to try some of the Firefly comics that Dark Horse comics put out. Joss Whedon had a hand in them. One of the things put out was cowritten by Joss and his brother Zack, titled Serenity: A Shepherd's Tale, is a look at the backstory of Shephard Book. It's also told in reverse order, starting with the movie and working backwards (so, you ***REALLY*** should watch Serenity before reading this).
I think that brother Zack was also the author of the Doctor Horrible one-shot comic that was put out. I would heartily recommend the DVD for Doctor Horrible, the commentary tracks are hilarious.
I hope it might have rekindled some flagging spirit for you. I don't think we're in a case of hitting a lot of lapses in the show, I suspect that everything is going to plan and we're about to get the Oh-my-god-THAT'S-what-it-all-means-twisty-turny bits at the end of the season that we get excited about.
this was the second episode in a row where Amy's lost faith in the Doctor.
Going back to A Good Man Goes To War, we have the poem itself:
Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demons run, but count the cost
The battle's won, but the child is lost
I think we're still seeing some of the effects of that playing out. The bit about Friendship dies would certainly be appropriate for The Girl Who Waited, and may also be (at least briefly) applicable to Amy when the Doctor broke her faith in him in The God Complex.
I suspect that there will be more with Night will fall and drown the sun, and Night will fall and dark will rise. This might be a metaphorical statement about what's happened to the Doctor's soul during this. He's realized now that the dark has risen too far.
By a Mini, are you referring to a Mini Cooper? I would think a transatlantic journey by one would be just a little damp.
Unless you're planning on entering a Top Gear competition and are trying for a record distance with an amphibous car...
That story would have worked perfectly if the train was attached to a balloon of some sort, as my Mini would be. Hopefully it'll get me back before 2:05 on 22 April. Anything after that would be of no use whatsoever.
See above for the reason why my car would remain perfectly dry. Look out for the news item on BBC Breakfast, just after the featured 'Special Guest' discusses one of his books. And I didn't write spoiler this time because all of this is apparently officially in the public domain now, or so I've been told. Not sure if I'm too pleased about it, but there we go.
The doppleganger getting shot and killed makes more sense than the current Doctor being a ganger.
If the current Doctor or any surviving Doctor would be a ganger then that would be like replacing Superman with a robot and still calling him the Last Son of Krypton. Part of the Doctor being what he is is that he lives with the consequences of passing time and not just 900 or 1000 years worth of it. Since he interacts with so many people over such a huge span of time and knows the consequences he played a role in and the ones he could not change and wished to change....the Doctor bears a heavy load. Much more than a Methuselah.
The thing about Gangers is that you saying the essence can be duplicated, too. If it did not experience all of those events and just remembers them then he becomes no better than a person who watches too much TV and believes it to be his personal history, or, someone who bases their existence on role playing.
I think the simplest explanation is older Doctor dies before younger Doctor arrives. The question is why did the younger Doctor arrive late? It is likely because he is never on time but he didn’t meet with the rest where they met each other, which was on the side of a road. As far as we know, first he went to destination number two, the diner.
Another question is: if River could shoot off a cowboy hat at a long distance, why not be able to hit a larger target at a shorter distance? In the “Day of the Moon", we saw how she took down the Silence at short distance and in motion, like a sureshot.
I don't think it will be a ganger Doctor that will be killed at Lake Silencio. I think it will be the real Doctor.
That said, I suspect we'll see the Doctor get around this by having Flesh Avatar primed to take his consciousness, which the Doctor will have set up to do either shortly before or shortly after his death. I think the teaser image for the second half of the season showing the skeletal hand holding the sonic screwdriver is symbolic that the sonic screwdriver will be important.
We have also been told that we will see River's sonic screwdriver (from Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead) show up in the series again. It's perfectly feasible that the Doctor builds a sonic now that will record his mind, and that will be transferred into a Flesh Avatar he has set up for that purpose. Having established that the gangers are really people too would make it a lot easier to accept this as the real Doctor. It avoids the problems of already having the ganger version we had seen still running around and being accepted as the Doctor as it means that all the episodes starting with A Good Man Goes to War still count for the Doctor.
As to why not send in a Flesh Avatar? I'm guessing that 52nd century technology might exist for determining what's Flesh and what's a normal person. If not that, then I'd be willing to bet that Kovarian's ilk could jam a signal to a Flesh avatar almost as easily as the Doctor did in the TARDIS.
Okay. Our heroes where in a prison.
That prison existed for a minotaur...forget the maze...the food source for the minotaur were sentient creatures that had faith.
So, can we presume the warden or the prison builder is the Cross Army, the one from “Let’s Kill Hilter” and “The Time of Angels”?
Cap’t Teselecta Train conductor said that they punish people near the end of their lives but he didn’t say anything about killing them. Obviously, the Army from “The Time of Angels” and “ A Good Man...” probably would kill someone...
So, I forgot where I’m going with this because I was interrupted...for over 40 minutes...
I didn't interpret the promo image of the skeleton hand that way, I took it as someone who we have seen wield a sonic screwdriver dies. Of course this series alone we've seen the real and Flesh Doctors, Rory, and Amy all wield it at one point or another, and the ganger was left with one all to himself. So there are certainly a lot of possibilities there.
I just can't see Moffat killing the real Doctor, consciousness transfer or not. A consciousness transfer feels too much like something the Master would do, and while this is a very dark Doctor he isn't that far gone.
The ganger Doctor did have a sonic, but he didn't have a TARDIS. The Doctor who died by the lake also didn't seem to have one. He seems to be the most likely candidate.
These are going to be a loooonnng two weeks.
I just finished the Long Game.
I have to say the thing that is striking me the most watching this first season of new-who now having seen quite a bit of the classic stuff, as well as the season that have come after it, is just how much Series 1 feels like the classic show.
I know that may be blasphemous to all of the ones who love the classics but hate RTD, but I don't care. The Unquiet Dead & The Long Game especially feel as though they could just as easily have been Tom Baker adventures
They keep saying this all wont lead to th Valeyard...but they do lie. Think on this, it as said that the Valeyard came about in between regeneration, when the Doctor removed all the darkness from himself. This series has seen him getting darker and darker, and also being confronted by that darkness. He knows he is going to die at the lake. Perhaps it is how he removes the darkness from himself...Why else bring Canton and the gasoline to the lake? Other then the obvious reason of immolating his body...
Sorry but with a screen name like mine it's pretty much obligatory ...
Oh you Mini Chitty Bang Bang
Witty Twitty Filk Fan
We love you.
Mini Chitty Bang Bang
Britty TV Boss Man
What he'll do.
Near, far, in his half a car
A transatlantic time he'll spend.
Glide Hang Mini Chitty Bang Bang
Your fine four fendered friend.
Don't Prang Dover Cliffy Bing Bang
Or Doctor Who might end.
It's squat as a shoebox.
Its seats jar your spine like rocks.
It smells like last week's socks today.
You'll whirl on your motor trip
Wishing it was a Silent's ship
So you'd forget being sick.
Oh Christy You Chitty
Shitty Chitty Bang Bang
Drop me of in Japan
Let me out.
This shitty damned thang
Crappy fucky wang dang
I hitty my titty
On my snout.
Hmm. Maybe you should fly Qantas.
The Doctor who got shot didn't turn into a pile of ganger juice. But then, if he was a copy of the Doctor, I suppose regenerative energy maybe put a whammy on the ganger's biology? Didn't we witness a Doctor ganger turning into goo before in "The Almost People"? I saw someone mention the Doctor possibly making an offscreen trip to a ganger facility, so I guess the theory is he tweaked a ganger to make biologically equivalent to the point that it could regenerate? But Moffat keeps insisting that the Doctor really did die, so I guess ganger technology might come into play in reviving his charred corpse. Sorry to bring up something that's probably totally redundant!
On the other hand, I hope we don't find that there's a different Doctor every time he puts on a different pair of pants. I like to think he has wardrobe options unlike Tennant's brown suit/blue suit situation.
In answer to a question above, I would prefer to not find that we'll be following the adventures of a ganger. But then again, this show has survived this long in great part due to its ability to change and viewers' willingness to roll with it.
Even aside from the ratings thing.
Did you see the type of comments from these mumpties who think the show is too complicated? Will the Doctor regenerate into a cat? WTF?
Maybe those idiots should watch something a little less taxing. And to think, I used to hold the Guardian up as a semi decent read. But if numpties like that are reading the Guardian, it is most definitely a tabloid.
Should be a fun watch. Especially that lady dressed as a TARDIS. I bet her boyfriend hopes she's not *bigger on the inside*. Ok.... *slaps self*
No idea what I even meant by that. Nope.
Micheal_Jackson's_ghost: good point on the sonic 'goo' setting. If they go the route to have a gangerDoctor running around, I suspect that the Doctor will have a way to gooproof the thing from errant sonic settings. (Of course, remember the two rules about the sonic screwdriver: 1) It's not sonic, 2) it's not a screwdriver).
There's apparently a difference between stabilizing the ganger bodies so they don't keep shifting back to half ganger form and gooproofing them, since the Doctor told the gangers that the TARDIS stabilized them yet he was still able to turn Amy into goo (no, that's not a euphemism) even though her avatar had been in the TARDIS much longer. So, there will probably be some sleight of hand way to deal with that issue if it comes up.
that reilly monster - at first I was only taking it as symbolizing the Doctor dying, but when you think about it, it seems there might be more hidden in plain sight. The Doctor didn't die holding a sonic screwdriver, so if it's a literal picture then somebody put it in his hand. And why show it active? Maybe just to draw the parallel between the Doctor dying and the sonic dying. However, we have been told by Moffat that River's sonic will be seen again, and we saw the gradual green lights going off one by one as the pattern buffer decayed. Maybe it's a clue that the sonic will also be important.
Also, with my theory I don't think it's the gangerDoctor come back. If you have that one take the regular Doctor's place after the regular Doctor dies, then it would almost be like Let's Kill Hitler through Closing time don't count, as the Doctor that will be around after that won't have experienced them. I think a lot of the audience would feel cheated that way. I also don't see the Doctor sending in a gangerDoctor to die. He's trying to change his ways now, and I don't think he'd do that to himself. So, I don't see the Doctor going back to pick up The Rebel Flesh gangerDoctor just so that that one could meet a certain death. Morally that would have him sinking even lower, and would be contrary to the changes he's trying to make (based on what we saw at the end of The God Complex).
I do think it's possible though that the Doctor will try to make a gangerDoctor to take his place after he dies. I think it's equally probable that the gangerDoctor would realize this, not want the other Doctor to die and would sacrifice himself instead. It could really go either way.
thetransformedman - No, the Doctor who got shot didn't turn into a pile of gangergoo. On the other hand, there were plenty of gangers who were killed in The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People who also didn't turn into goo when they were shot. In fact, there was a very vocal point about one of them having organs and being human before he died. So, the only thing that not seeing a puddle of fleshgoo means is that it isn't a Flesh avatar running around with the Doctor operating it remotely. It could still be a ganger duplicate or be the real Doctor.
I had a flashback to the late 80's/early 90's when Andrew Cartmel had been talking about having the Doctor have a house (in Kent, I believe). I think they used the house in a few of the comics that had been written around that time (this would be the time when you had Paul Cornell and Cartmel himself writing for the comics, not the early 7th Doctor stuff).
I got struck by the idea that wouldn't it be funny if the house that Amy and Rory have was on the same row as the Doctor's house. I had this image of a scene where for some reason Amy's going around knocking on neighbor's doors, and when she gets to one house we just hear Sylvester McCoy's voice from inside saying Go Away! I'm not supposed to know you yet!
That would be a very Sylvester McCoy Doctor type thing to have happen.
Thanks. I think I'm going to rewatch the ganger episodes today. I had also thought of the possibility you mentioned that both Doctors will be trying to out-Doctor each other and each one will try to sacrifice himself for the other.
I suspect having a gangerDoctor and a non-gangerDoctor each trying to out-nobly-sacrifice-to-save-the-other is going to happen. I see that as more of a possibility than the Doctor just trying to purge the bad parts of himself into a Flesh Avatar or something like that, if for no other reason that the Doctor wouldn't want something to go horribly wrong and have the dark aspects be able to run around without any nobler instincts to reign them in. He's already met the Valeyard and the DreamLord; I don't see him wanting to deliberately set things up where they even get a chance of running around.
You know, the one they were hanging in at the start of TIA?
Morphed into the new house through timeywimeyness?
BTW in TIA Doc is being painted as Poseidon, not Dionysus. Maybe to emphasise his relationship with worshipful watery people ...
We don't know that the Valeyard came about between regenerations, with the Doctor trying to purge the dark bits from himself. All that the Valeyard said was that he was from between the Doctor's 12th and final regeneration. The theory about him being the dark bits projected out of the Doctor was only a theory thrown forth by fans in the 80s and 90s. At the time we were used to thinking the Time Lords were locked into only 12 regenerations (with the slight lifeline thrown out by the line in The Five Doctors), and the concept of projecting an avatar (per se) like Cho-je in Planet of the Spiders or the Watcher in Logopolis was used to claim that the Valeyard was only a projection when the Doctor went into his final regeneration, and was going to purge all of the evil out of himself. If you notice, some of the people with this theory would go further and claim that the Valeyard would become the Black Guardian and the Doctor would become the White Guardian.
Now, with the idea that you're not necessarily limited to 12 regenerations (the throwaway line in the Sarah Jane Adventures, fans going around with the concept that if the Time Lords could give Time Lords new regeneration cycles that it would make perfect sense that if you're caught in a Time War you'd extend the regeneration ability of all the Time Lords fighting in that war), the line of being between the 12th and final regeneration takes on a completely different meaning. All it needs to mean is that sometime down the line one of his regenerations goes bad, so to speak.
For that matter, if the Doctor lies, then by extension the Valeyard could have been lying about what he said during Trial of a Time Lord. Was he evil, or just more ruthless (and maybe desperate)? Presumably he would have known how the trial was going to turn out since he had gone through it from the other side many regenerations before. So, what did he actually accomplish? Now, through apparently clumsy handling of evidence during the trial he DID let the corruption of the Time Lords get exposed, and got that regime overthrown. It's almost like the main story of Trial of a TimeLord should have been about the exposing and overthrowing of the corrupt Time Lord regime, and the actual trial bit was only a ruse in order to let the Valeyard pull off what he needed to do. The Sixth Doctor was merely a guest star in the Valeyard's story. Since it was Doctor Who, though, the focus was on the 6th Doctor's trial, and we didn't get to watch the big picture. It would be like being one of the guest stars in a regular Doctor Who story and watching the show only from the viewpoint of the guest star. Not getting to watch any of the scenes with the Doctor when the guest star isn't around would mean that there would be large parts that you would miss. Picture if The God Complex had been shown only from Gibbis' viewpoint, and we didn't get to see scenes he wasn't involved with. It would make less sense (but we might find out more about why the goldfish were significant).
But, I digress. The main point is that the Valeyard doesn't have to be a projection. He could just be a future regeneration of the Doctor. Or A Doctor - gangerDoctor, handDoctor with Rose actually regenerating after all, Donna still being infused with the DoctorDonna garbage regenerating when she dies and becoming a really messed up Valeyard, whatever. There's far more than one option now.
It might be morphed into the new house, this could actually be in the past compared to the other and his does a timeywimey thing dropping their older selves off at their house before their younger selves got it (just make sure the older selves are off on vacation or otherwise adventuring when the younger ones are there).
We didn't get any 'look it's our house' comments to indicate it was the same one as before (though I could easily have missed the comment if it were there), so we can't assume it's the same place.
Maybe someone in England can answer this, though - do regular small towns similar to the fictional town of Leadworth have rows of flats the way they were shown at the end of The God Complex? I was under the impression that rows of houses like that would have been in bigger towns and not small towns (where I'd expect more a standalone house).
With the talk about falling ratings and asking whether Doctor Who has gotten too complex, I think the author has completely missed the point. The question isn't whether the show has gotten too complex, it's whether the audience has gotten smart enough to figure out how they can timeshift when they watch the episodes. Although the article does cite how Moffat likes to point out the total viewing figures when you factor in the timeshifting, he keeps coming back to overnight figures. Maybe the question should be Are Doctor Who viewers smarter than the ones for other shows? Or is it just that the audience for Family Fortunes and writers for newspapers don't have the mental fortitude to figure out how to watch a show at some time other than at the time it's broadcast, and that people smart enough to figure this out don't count?
Then it just reaffirms his position this season as an all purpose god-head. And if that's true, then it's probaly enormously pertinent that we should have seen some of the battle of Zaruthstra (sic) during aGMGTW, given that Nietzsche's infamous novel 'Thus spoke Zarathustra' first popularised the phrase 'God is dead,' as well as dealing with themes such as the eternal recurrence of the same and the ascendancy of the overmen.
Ah, I'm preaching to the converted here, aren't I?
then we need to look at buddhism (which has historically had a relationship with Doctor Who) and consider the line about if you meet the buddha kill him. Maybe the Doctor's killing himself is the equivalent of killing his buddha.
I know we've touched on this many times before but the tie change at the start of TIA is quite striking. Red when he's being painted, blue in the Stetson.
A mysterious man in a baseball cap is sitting down in the diner when they arrive. He gives them a meaningful look and hides his face with the cap through the rest of the dialog. No accident.
What is the day coming for River that is ~far worse~ than her death or the Doc's death?
Rory asks where they're going. ~Home. And off you pop and make babies ... and you Doctor Song ...~ maybe 909-year-old Doc knows a LOT more than we thought? I mean this dialogue is now seriously suss.
I hereby give you my official vote as the show's new showrunner should The Moff ever leave. You're either a demented genius, or you just have too much time on your hands. And please don't confirm which it is, because it's good to keep secrets sometimes.
It's definitely fun being able to bat theories back and forth. And vent about idiots who don't understand that timeshifting means you have to look at the final adjusted figures, not just the initial figures. You'd think that since the concept of timeshifting has been around since VCR's became available that it shouldn't be that hard to understand.
First time poster on here, really enjoy reading this every week.
In response to merrick; it is very good on BBC HD, but I mustn't be the only one who is crying out for a good sound mixer to be brought onboard? Watching the show with surround sound is pointless a lot of the time, as the dialogue is constantly drowned out by Gold's BOMBASTICALLY loud, repetitive music.
Loving the show though, it's up there with Fringe for me at the nadir of Sci-Fi on TV at the moment.
we've already seen it in Silence in the Library. It's the time she shows up and the Doctor doesn't recognize her at all.
She's probably also thinking it might equate with it being the last time she'll see the Doctor (though with wibbly wobbly time travel it wouldn't necessarily have to be)
I'll have to go back to look at the guy in the baseball cap. At the times I've watched it I was thinking he was just staring at strangers walking in, but it might be more significant.
Oh, and you forgot one other bow tie change - there was no bowtie at all when he was digging the escape route, just the t-shirt. How does that factor into the theory? ;)
This was so many light years ahead of last year's "Vampires of Venice", I couldn't believe it. Good dialogue, I just loved Rita, the Doctor and Amelia's awesome scene, the Nimon, the Doc portayed as the one with the "blood of the innocents" on his hands, man, just a great episode.
I hope Toby writes a ton more stories if they're going to be like this one.
Plus, the direction was very stylish this episode. The horror movie scenes were sweet. Don't you just think the production quality alone is so remarkably improved since the first season? (We won't even compare my beloved original show!)
And let's not forget the cloister bell! It's the sound of the TARDIS being destroyed. Of course, The Doc's greatest fear is losing the her and becoming stranded.
I welled up three times in this episode (Rita, Amelia, and Amy at the window at the end.) Can any other sci-fi show pull so many heartstrings and do it two weeks in a row? I really don't think so.
At least Amy mentioned her child this week. She was pregnant for nine months, but how long did she know about it? Just when she went into labor. How long did she have to be attached to the baby? Not very long, but I still would like a little more emotional reaction from Amy and Rory about Melody. I think that's been the only emotional misstep from such an awesome season. I hope we get some kind of closure.
I still don't know how they're going to solve the Impossible Astronaut in one episode! And if you think this season is too complex, then I can't help you. We've had LOST, The X-Files, 24, etc... Doctor Who needed this kind of storytelling to pull the kind of emotional weight that we're used to now as viewers.
I agree with that article, though, when they said that how much you like this season depends on how much you like River. Good thing that I love her!
Murray Gold's music is apparently polarizing. A lot of people like it, some people hate it immensely. Of course, I'm sure this was probably true in the past. If the internet existed in its present form in the 1970s we'd probably see people posting about how Dudley Simpson's music isn't suitable for the show and he should be sacked.
Yes, there is a bombastic tone sometimes with Murray Gold, but sometimes the music just matches up so well it would be a crime to have any other music there. Sometimes it's even the lack. The best use of the music I can think of as conveying just what is going on was at the end of The Pandorica Opens - we see all the stars exploding (looking like Van Gogh painted them) as the music holds the chord, then we hit the point where even the music gets cut off before a proper end, like the Silence caught up with even it.
And, sometimes the bombastic tone works to sell the action (the Doctor flying the Pandorica into the heart of the exploding TARDIS). I imagine some people don't like it, but it all comes down to personal taste.
I'll agree with this being far better than Vampires of Venice (although I still maintain the whole Doctor-popping-out-of-the-cake scene makes the entire story worth it), and he's back at the level he was at when he wrote School Reunion. I'd like to see him writing a lot more for Who.
I was also glad to see some of the directorial choices. The Praise Him bits were well handled, as well as the way the scene in the Spa was shot, and how creepy they were able to make the scene with all the magician's dummies.
I do have one minor nit to pick, though - there have been other sf shows that have pulled so many heartstrings two weeks in a row - Farscape at its height has done it, and a few times in Babylon 5. It's definitely rare, though (with the ones I've listed that's only 1 show per decade).
Somebody (well, several people have attempted it, and I picked the one I thought was best) strung together every version of Gold's Eleventh Doctor running up and down the corridors theme, and I probably listen to that on my iPod twenty times a day during my commute. It makes my mornings and evenings feel a lot more epic. And when I think I'm getting carried away and go to other songs, I always quickly end up back on that same track.
One might be wandering the corridors of the TARDIS while Sexy keeps reconfiguring her architecture so that the Doctors don't run into each other.
Although, it would make an interesting story for the Doctor to find out that another Doctor has started working as a scientific advisor for UNIT (or Torchwood or whatever they have, depending on the century) while spending his free time trying to find out what happened to the TARDIS.
Actually, the one gangerDoctor we know of would know he's a ganger if he came back (presumably).
As a side note, it's probably best to differentiate between the Flesh avatars (which are remotely controlled) and the gangers (which have gained independent sentience separate from the Flesh itself).
Although they r still comparatively very strong compared to other programming, and while I will also say that the audience may have shifted slightly away from the height of tennant's, I'm funny, I'm a fan, geeks luv me, kids luv me, housewives luv me, grandparents luv me, oh it's scary but everything's ok - era, it must be said that the show now also has fucking stunning production value compared to say, 2006 for example, the stories are IMO scarier and a gd bit darker and secondary characters r actually characters, not cartoons. Or demographics.
The show has shattered new ground round the world.
But, if we're Frank. General viewership in the uk is down. Substantially. Eccelson and tennant at their height could draw 10-11 million. Who as it is now does not look like it could do that even when consolidated.
But do we care? Quality wise I think the show is better now. I hope smith remains and cements a place near the top of those who have portrayed the doctor. And even if it's not the most watched and adored program in the country anymore, does it really have to be as long as it's still strong and fresh and winning new fans?
Sometimes I think we see doctor who like we see our football teams, that we will hear no bad word about it, it has the be the best, it has to be great all the time. It's not like that, it's a show I luv, and that hopefully my kids will luv.
Back in 2005 and 2006, there wasn't an iPlayer was there? So, I really do think timeshifting and DVR'ing is changing things. And there definitely wasn't the excitement in the US then that there is now.
The number of people watching in the US was higher when it was on Sci-Fi than BBC America (because Sci-Fi is in way more homes here) but Who is more valuable to BBCA than it is to Sci-Fi because even if it's less people, it's way more than they usually get.
Either way, there's a bunch of reasons why an antiquated viewer measuring system (TV ratings) might be inadequate for gauging the true popularity of a modern-day show that only started airing on the same day in the two most populous countries it airs in THIS YEAR!
I can't even contribute to the ratings, I buy them off iTunes, shouldn't my purchase count towards more than some fairweather fan who just watches when it's rainy out instead of sunny?
I will have to check my diary ;-)
Tell you what, MOV. Let me and the clique here write an episode. Standalone or arc context, I'm sure we're not picky. We can pick a premise or you can, whatever. We might want a little foreknowledge in the process - but that would be more by way of you answering the odd question than us getting an official bible.
I reckon I could use open source tools (thinking Prezi+Trello) to wrangle say 10 co-conspirators into generating a coherent draft. And I dare say we'd cost nothing. It would be the fulfilment of a dream for any of us to get our real names on an episode of DW.
I'd be happy to run that. What do you say? Project Thyrsus. Can we get a shot?
No kidding - REALLY REALLY SPOILEY. Really Really.
From Doctor Who Magazine about ~The Wedding of River Song:~
The city of London, 22 April 2011 – soaring buildings, glittering and mighty under a perfect blue sky, and life tumbling onto pavements below. And horse-drawn Roman chariots driving through the streets. And a Victorian steam train on a monorail… hang on, like in a sci-fi city, but with Romans and steam trains? And hot air balloons? And pterodactyls? And Charles Dickens appearing on BBC One’s Breakfast! Something isn’t quite right…
In Buckingham Senate, at 5.02pm, Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill calls for his Soothsayer to be fetched from the Tower. Greying, unkempt, older, tireder, but unmistakably – it’s the Doctor. “Tick tock goes the clock,” Winston tells him, “but they don’t, do they? The clocks never tick.” It’s always 5.02pm these days. All of history is happening at once. “What happened to time?” asks Winston. The answer, it seems, is a woman…
June 26, 2010 - Amy's Wedding.
July 26, 2010 4 weeks
August 26, 2010 8 weeks
September 26, 2010 13 weeks
October 26, 2010 17 weeks
November 26, 2010 21 weeks
December 26, 2010 26 weeks
January 26, 2010 30 weeks
February 26, 2010 34 weeks
March 26, 2010 38 weeks
April 22, 2010 42 weeks
The World Health Organization defines normal term for delivery as between 37 weeks and 42 weeks.
My idea is horribly presumptuous. It's a bit like Arthur Miller's drinking buddies asking him if he would mind if they took a turn with Marilyn. The only reasonable response would be to stop drinking with those guys. After busting 'em each in the beezer.
If our Arthur were to green-light the Thyrsus idea I think we'd have to be careful not to change the dynamic around here. I don't like to think about leaving anyone out but also I don't like to think about picking people arbitrarily.
OTOH if that Arthur were to say, only yanking you Caractacus, you know I have responsibilities to my gal, you guys shouldn't oughta ask me things like that, well heck Darth, I'd take on anyone who understood there's no actual payoff. Because it would be fun anyway.
So let's see. Most likely it's just about the fun.
It was a thinko to call Trello and Prezi open source. They're gratis not libre - free as in beer, not free as in speech.
And actually if we want to keep Thyrsus from the public eye until such time as it has two buttocks, there would be a small fee at least on Prezi. Then again I've already paid that small fee ...
@doctortom Canton was also wearing a cap but it's pretty plainly not him. As to the Doc not wearing a tie in the tunnel, that one is probably a Zygon. But I've been remiss in not going back to watch the Tennant eps to see about his suit colour changes in Moffatt episodes ... maybe there are more clues there. Most likely not, but who knows?
I was considering last evening who actually owns 'Who'? Yes, I know the main copyright rests with Auntie, and various other bits and bobs belong to other estates, but in day-to-day terms, I suppose one would have to naturally assume the Moff. And yet, I've always viewed the show-runner's role as less one of ownership and more one of stewardship, of looking after it on behalf of the next generation. And then I started trying to apply this same notion to the Arthur Miller / Marilyn thing and... Jesus.
Anyway, I like the sound of the lightly salted / slightly alteredversion of Project Thrysus, especially its (as you adroitly state) deeply presumptious nature, and I hereby offer my services as sacrificial donkey #2, just for the shits and giggles. Of course, Project Thrysus *does* sound a bit like an STD clinic, but that's fine, because whatever we end up with will probably be pretty fucking painful anyway.
Oh, happy daze!
You could, of course, start with the ties:
I've also read somewhere that Tennant varied which suit buttons he did up on each episode, but I doubt there will be much to gleaned from looking at that, unless it's a *really* clever code. That said, Moffat's 10th Doctor stories are always worth a revisit, so let us know if you find any more fuel to add to the pyre; knowing you, I'm sure you'll come up with something :)
I will post it here*. I had to do it. Of course it wil probably not be any different/better than any old fanfic. But I'm writing it because the story was in me and it just had to come out.
I say to all of you, don't ask for permission. If you have a story to tell, write it and apologize when it's done rather than wait for permission. I bet a large percentage of the people who frequent this place have at least 2 or 3 fantastic Who stories lurking in their brains, dying to be released from captivity.
*a link, actually. Might be a bit huge for here.
I know the feeling...
I don't have a blue bowtie - do you mind terribly if I wear a red one?
As it is, in the next Docback I will espouse my latest theory on what the hell is going on in this arc, and give details of the big old twisty reveal I expect to see in the final ep. Mind you, I should be getting stoked for 'Closing Time' first, shouldn't I?
Oh, and one final thought for today - the editor of DWM does not consider DW to be high art. Surely he jests? In the pantheon of cultural artifacts, surely DW rates higher than Goethe? I mean, were there any rubber-suited monsters or incomprehensible Sylvester McCoyisms in the sorrows of young Werther? No, there were not, and so I rest my case (because it is heavy, and full of unfashionable clothes.)
That every single human being has a least one good story to tell. It's just a case of being *able* to tell it. I bet every Docbacker could write a Who story of varying degrees of quality, but each would have a spark of originality in it. I would say if you haven't tried to write a story yet, give it a go if you have the time to do so, you might just surprise yourself.
Read this article on DigitalSpy the other day, regarding the ratings. I also saw another article that showed the total figures, including iPlayer and BBC3 reruns, had risen over the years since the 'first' series. Sadly, I cannot remember where I saw it.
Apologies if this has already been posted:
What I'm about to say will make you hate me forever, and I'm not saying it to be nasty, but whatever is written or submitted here will never make it onto the show. I'm only saying that out of experience and honesty. I'd encourage you all to write anything you want on the Docback and to give feedback to each other, but to have expectations that any of it will actually be seen and used, that would be unfair right from the get-go. Treat it as a fun joint-project in the Docback and nothing more. Or possibly wait for an official competition in the future where members of the public can submit scripts similar to the competition that was held for school kids. Again, I think that's unlikely to ever happen due to the unsupervised nature of such a competition and the sheer number of entries that they'd receive, but never say never. The 50th Anniversary *IS* approaching and fun things like that are surely being planned, don't you think?
Though truthfully, the Doctor Who magazine bit would more properly be called a teaser than a spoiler (unless you REALLY don't want to have any knowledge at all beforehand). That was the type of text to get your blood racing and count down the time (only 9 days until it airs!)
I'm guessing you did the time calculation from Amy's wedding - good job figuring that out!
I've heard of women having their water break at the time they're supposed to give birth, but this might be the first case of a woman breaking time when she's about to give birth...
It made me smile.
I watched TIA/DotM again last night. I don't know if that person with the cap's going to be important at all. I got the feeling that it was just an extra. It didn't look like Canton Everett Delaware III at either age (I was thinking that Moff might try pulling a sly one and have the younger Canton in 2011 as well as the older one because of something the older Doctor does.)
This occurred to me while rewatching The Impossible Astronaut.
It looks like we have Cybermen running around again, along with cybermats. I wasn't sure if we had any sewer scenes.
Rumors have it these are supposed to be Mondas/Telos Cybermen, not ones from the other dimension. When the Cybermen were in the Troughton story The Invasion (also in Attack of the Cybermen) they were hiding out in the sewer systems.
In The Impossible Astronaut, River notes how there's the sewers covering the whole world and that they're really old. At the time we were thinking the Silents might be responsible. They still might be, but what are the chances that the Cybermen are using the Silents' tunnel system to hide out in? There had been the rumors of connections between the Silents and the Cybermen, this might be some of the connection right there.
So, the Doctor's death date (as listed in Let's Kill Hitler) is listed as 22 April. This is coincidentally the date that Amy would give birth to Melody if she had stayed Earthbound. The Doctor has to die in order for Melody to live?
That would be interesting. I had forgotten about that rumor of a connection between the two, maybe that's the extent of it and maybe not. I'm sure at some point they'll address who built them and why.
On a slight tangent, when I was watching the preview for Closing Time I was struck by how much I like the Cybermen more in Moffat's tenure. Their behavior and MO is unchanged, but physically they appear much more terrifying because they're dirty and grimied-up. I'm not sure why that makes a difference to me, but I find them much more impressive than the freshly-polished steel ones used by RTD.
Actually, I'd agree that the Cybermen look better if the shells look more like they've been 'lived in'. I wouldn't see the Cybermen bothering to take showers to wash off grime unless it was going to impair their functionality.
The Cybermen weren't totally unchanged, though. We had the bit with the cyberhead in The Pandorica Opens, which to me was brilliant. The idea that the body is set up to get a new host brain if necessarily is definitely more chilling than what would effectively just be 'man in suit'.
Moffat bringing back the Cybermats was also a good idea. They were a concept that got abandoned during the JN-T/Eric Saward era, and not picked up again until now. The first Cybermen story I saw was Revenge of the Cybermen and I liked their use in there. (At the time I liked the story, probably helped because then I didn't know about how the Cybermen had been done earlier in the show, and I didn't know that that Cybermen weren't supposed to have Welsh accents or show emotions. I still like the story despite it's flaws - the 'Harry Sullivan is an imbecile!' bit was definitely fun, and having the head mounted weapon was an interesting twist.)
Mate, my suggestion was unfair, presumptuous, and unrealistic. I couldn't possibly hate you for refusing it. Not for a moment.
But obviously the rest of us will want to have a go anyway. That way when the BBC finally announces its competition (for the 100th if not the 50th) we'll be ready.
Hmm. Alternatively we could put this together as an Adventure game. That way we might feel slightly less pathetic as we could find our way to an audience of sorts. I'm only basically literate in game construction tools - favouring Unity3d. Anyone here got skills in such things?
But I get well ahead of myself. I'll try to cobble together some kind of collaborative authoring environment this weekend. Maybe start with a trello board to define workflow. And maybe another for a story board ...
It's fairly obvious that the Doctor's going off to visit Craig before he dies. Now, one thing that might catch us by surprise is if they actually slip in his death at Lake Silencio tomorrow night. Or, at least, the Doctor confronts the issue and tries to play a 'get out of a fixed event free' card (don't know if they have that one in the new Doctor Who Monopoly set, but I think it should be there), has the plan fail miserably and shatters time as a result. (Maybe he figures out how to save Melody - that wouldn't look like it would fit in this episode, though, not unless we have time travelling Cybermen)
I suspect not, but it would be a pleasant surprise if they catch us that way. Another surprise from left field like last week's dropping off Amy and Rory would be very nice.
(Actually, I'm suspecting all the Lake Silencio stuff will be saved for episode 13. And that, for a wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing it will be worked out a lot more simply than a lot of us are expecting.)
Without saying too much (for a change), you have to pay attention to the final scenes in the next episode very carefully. Many of you will be hit with a bad case of 'Ah-haaaaa' fever before the episode is over and then you'll be dashing back to the Docback to discuss them. And I can't wait to read what you all have to say before the finale.
I'm sure it will be along the lines of 'holy s**t I didn't see THAT coming! How are they going to get out of this?'
Of course, it's going to take quite a lot to outdo the end of last year's episode 12. It's going to be fun watching everyone working to top it.
He's not playing Professor Lazarus, or Fenric (unless there's an alias)
I'll put this nugget here instead of in the Hercthread to reward the people sticking with this one until tomorrow's Docback shows up.
You can see why I have a quandry when I see Doctor Who competing against Sherlock for awards. That show IS brilliant, and I think the 3rd story shows that Mark Gatiss can knock them out of the park completely on occasion. (The first story's still my favorite, though.)
but he has enough of an ego that it seems he announces himself as Fenric and not as the possessed person when it happen. And, he seems the type who would want to rub it in that it's him who's going to beat the Doctor.
He uses people to set up the Doctor before he takes possession of his wolves. Look to Dr Judson.
So he could be a wolf of Fenric, and then trying to rub it in saying "What, you didn't see me coming? A chess board?!"
He could be a wolf. My gut instinct is that Fenric isn't involved, but I could be pleasantly surprised.
Or, we'll find out that this guy is Fenric's second cousin. The show now likes having distantly related monsters and such (Ood having a relationship to Senorites according to RTD, tongue Silurians vs. 3rd eye Silurians, last week's Minotaur vs. the Nimon). They could try something like that...or say that this guy is one of the Gods of Ragnarok or something like that.
of Omega, Fenric, the Great Intelligence, the Master (of the Land of Fiction - not the Master who has a wife), the Celestial Toymaker and the Big Bang Matt Smith Doctor who sealed himself outside the universe all sitting around playing cards. It would have to be cards because there are too many beings there to play a game of chess on one chessboard.
Either that, or they're all playing World of Warcraft (at the Celestial Toymaker's suggestion).
Hey if every regular posted, say, two posts here in the next few hours, and then others did as well.... by some time tomorrow we could have 4 Who-related nodes in the top talkbacks.
That would be amusing.
Last week we barely hit 1 for 12 hours. I was personally humiliated. A line must be drawn - this far, no further!
Personally, I think that Herc guy is rope-a-doping our Who posts mid-week, so we're played out by Friday DocBack.
The sky in that puce. That's the only thing I have to say, because otherwise I had no idea what the hell was going on.
I'm pretty sure this Docback died twice before - well, can never have too much of a good thing, I suppose...
Harry obviously wised up to Who's popularity, which was why he decided to post about Star Wars last Friday. Well done, Harry! I imagine we'll get some equally fun competition this week; can't wait to see what. Maybe there'll be a review of Prometheus, or an accurate announcement about the next Trek movie.
ha ha ha - that's not likely to happen, is it?
It might take a couple of watching of Ghost Light to pick up on everything.
To be fair, I think some plot points that would make things clear ended up getting cut for timing purposes.
Titan books had published a script book for Ghost Light back in the 90's and had an introduction talking about the cuts some.
I don't think it had anything to to with Doctor Who at all - it only had to do with the Blu Rays of Star Wars coming out. (I might buy them sometime....if we ever get editions back where Han shoots first. At least when we get the Special Editions of Doctor Who stories they also offer the cleaned up version of the original.)
restored Han shooting first. Mind you, I don't have the will power to go back through Harry's thread to find out, so I'm probably wrong.
And this thread *has* had 24 posts in the last day... but methinks we should announce its passing, lest it be like a corspe that consistently comes back to life, having been possessed by gas...
Anyway, we're due a new Docback in 5...4...3...2...
which means that Greedo is a really bad shot amongst other things. I thought I had heard though that it hadn't changed from that for the Blue Ray.
Killing time until new DocBack (well, we have trolls in the other thread to bide the time by)....