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"The Girl Who Waited" Visits The Friday Docback!! READER REACTION To DOCTOR WHO S06E10 Is Here!!



 Ian Scoones preps the TARDIS for a shot.  From BBC VFX: The Story of the BBC Visual Effects Department (available HERE in U.S. and HERE in U.K.) - image via AICN




Merrick here...

This weekend brings us "The Girl Who Waited" - the 10th episode of DOCTOR WHO's 13 episode Season/Series 6.  Which means…we're now less than one month away from finding out what does, or does not, happen at Lake Silence (I did that on purpose…I know it's Lake Silencio on the show…but it's the same thing…you see…)

"The Girl Who Waited" is directed by Nick Hurran (who also directs next week's "The God Complex") and scripted by Tom MacRae (who wrote the Tennant-era "Rise of the Cybermen" and "The Age of Steel"). 



Last week I posted an embed of video captured during Sylvester McCoy's recent Dragon-Con appearance. In the clip, "7th Doctor" McCoy was asked to perform Matt Smith's Moffat-scripted Pandorica/Stonehenge monolog. 

The video we initially posted had poor image quality and even lower quality sound - here's a different angle  that is much brighter, sharper, and infinitely more audible.  In the piece, McCoy also discusses his dealings...or lack of dealings...with Sonic Screwdrivers.  Fascinating stuff - check it out. 

My friend Ken Plume, seen above with McCoy, also records "A Bit of a Chat" - an ongoing podcast featuring different guests from various fascinating fields.  He's now posted his extensive chat with Sylvester McCoy, which you can find HERE.



The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback below - aka "Docback" - is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe. 

Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.  

While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become a SPOILER INTENSIVE ZONE late tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday September 10) - when "The Girl Who Waited "airs in the U.K. 

If you wish to remain free and clear of "Girl Who Waited" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, you should tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.  

U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS):  please consider this ample notice and fair warning. 




"The Impossible Astronaut"

"Day of the Moon"

"The Curse of the Black Spot"

"The Doctor's Wife"

"The Rebel Flesh"

"The Almost People"

"A Good Man Goes To War"



"Let's Kill Hitler"

"Night Terrors"






"Time and the Rani"

"Merrick's Personal Journey With The Doctor / "Frontios"

"An Unearthly Child"

DOCTOR WHO Title Sequences & DW At Comic-Con 2011

"The Daleks," "The Awakening," "The Crash of the Elysium"

"The Gunfighters" / "The Edge Of Destruction"

Why Eccleston Left, Here Comes Caroline Skinner, And Season/Series Six Part 1 on Blu-Ray And DVD

"Paradise Towers" / New WHOvian Documentary / Newsbits

New Trailer For Season/Series Six Part 2

"Marco Polo" and "The Sun Makers"

"Day of the Daleks" (+ Preview Of DotD Special Edition)




See DOCTOR WHO  Season/Series Six Episode 1  - "The Impossible Astronaut"  - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.

Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife"  - is available HERE in HDwhile standard def is availabe HERE

Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.

Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.  

Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.

Episode 8 - "Let's Kill Hitler" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE

Episode 9 -"Night Terrors" - HD HERE, standard def HERE.

Episode 10- "The Girl Who Waited" - HD HERE, standard def HERE.


AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks"  - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks.  These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them.  Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:  
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)... 

2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity.  Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example.  "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well.  "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?"  Is NOT good.  

And, above all... 

3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way.  Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning.  Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated.  Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.  
In short, it's easy.  Be excellent to each other.  Now party on...



Readers Talkback
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  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:37 a.m. CST

    The Girl Who Waited

    by Mister Vertue

    For anyone who complained last week about Night Terrors being 'more for the kids than adults', I would say that this week's episode is 'more for adults than kids'. Why so? Firstly, it's a bit more 'wordy' in parts, although that is more than compensated for by some great action scenes (have I mentioned the chase sequence?), so the kids will still be happy. And secondly, the aforementioned tearjerking moments will appeal to adults who like a good weep. I've said it before and I'll say it one final time, have those tissues ready. Hmmm, what else to share with you... well, we know bow ties are cool. We know Stetsons are cool. I wonder what'll be cool *this* week? Feel free to guess in advance, except if you've already seen the episode, then you're banned from spoiling the fun for everyone else. Let's play 'Guess The Word' again eh? I ask you to watch out for Amy's funny little ***** and Rory's *******. Keep it clean boys and girls. Can't think of much more to add without giving too much away, although I very much look forward to hearing what you think about the morality of a certain character after it airs. Let the Docback commence!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:37 a.m. CST


    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Egg-headed robots and Rory wearing brainy specs - I can't wait! I really hope that next year he gets the beard he grew for Faustus - imagine the fun we'd all have with that!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:40 a.m. CST

    This should be good

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm looking forward to it. I'm waiting for it... Until then, yes, that is a crisp video of McCoy's rendition of the Pandorica. It shows why he should have a role in the new series, just popping up once.. imagine the Doctor having to keep the Time War away from his 7th self...

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Oh dear - have I blown it already? :(

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I watched the trailers readily available on teh interwebs - that makes me a bad person, right :( Really stoked for the ep, though - looks even more gorgeous than a Bjork video. Ah, a crazy Icelandic woman in the Tardis - there's something I'd like to see...

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:42 a.m. CST

    Cannot wait! I wear moonboots now, moon boots are cool!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    This should be another great episode!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:47 a.m. CST

    ithrat_cordwallis - ***SPOILERS***

    by Mister Vertue

    You correctly guessed Rory's glasses. I wasn't aware of their appearance in the trailers, so I suppose I'll have to pay more attention before I post my 'Guess The Word' game next time. Still, we still have Amy's funny little ***** to play with. I'm pretty sure that wasn't featured in any of the trailers that were released, although it's a very brief moment, so I might have missed it as well.

  • Is that it just sounded like a reading from the Pandorica by Sly McCoy. Ah, I guess I'm still really cool towards his interpretation of the Doctor - it didn't work for me at the time and it still doesn't; it feels like its all jaggedy bits without any bulk behind it to hold it all together - does that make any sense? Anyways, back to tomorrow's ep - the production design looks fabulous, and I'm very interested to see what Tom MacRae serves up story wise, given I wasn't a massive fan of his Cybermen two-parter. Mind you, I have always had an odd relationship with cybermen stories, and cybermen in general - I've always thought they're the coolest of enemies, and they scared me something chronic as a kid, but I'm struggling to think of a story of theirs that I don't think is at least a little bit crappy. Well, if and)- when we see them again, hopefully I will have my faith restored / deleted (delete as appropriate.)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:56 a.m. CST

    Smith said Karen nails it acting-wise in this episode, I can't wait

    by sunspot_mike

    Every time that he says something about an actor really hitting out of the park, he's right and those eps are usually my favorite. So, I'm hoping that he's batting a .1000 on this one (I'm not sure if I'm mixing my metaphors there or not.) It's also the last weekend that we get two shows set in the Whoniverse at the same time, so enjoy it everyone!

  • So from those same previews I'm going to guess "Amy's funny little kick-ass samurai space woman costume" Which I expect is wrong, because now I'm thinking of such a thing, I don't expect my brain to work properly for the rest of the evening...

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:05 a.m. CST

    Lake Silencio

    by smackfu

    The future Doctor is in the astronaut suit. He shoots the Teselecta, which has been shapeshifted to his form. It's the only way he could complete the circle, without him actually dying, and without interacting with his own timeline. Well, maybe not the *only* way...

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:07 a.m. CST

    sunspot_mike - I agree with Matt 100%

    by Mister Vertue

    Definitely Karen's best episode since she joined the show. If she hasn't won everyone round after this weekend, then I really don't know what else she can do. It's an outstanding performance.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:08 a.m. CST

    P.S. Re: BBC and AICN, for those who've asked

    by Merrick

    Re: what happened to our pre-screening of S6 episodes? BBC America continues its fantastically impolite and wholly unexplained blackout of AICN in regards to pre-screening DOCTOR WHO. I've been doing Net work like this for close to 17 years...and dealt with a number of studios, networks, producers, writers, directors, actors, and PR folks under extremely sensitive and difficult circumstances…and can say, from the bottom of my heart, that I've never, EVER encountered this level of flagrant dismissal and wanton discourtesy. We've heard NOTHING back from BBCA, or Devin Johnson (my contact there)...after attempting to reach the network through every conceivable means (short of walking into their office or mailing them a physical letter, that later of which would be either lost or ignored anyway). No explanations, no discussions, no rationale, nothing, re: why our pre-screening abilities have been summarily countermanded. We'd also engaged in some very preliminary discussion about the possibility of AICN hosting screenings of important/upcoming S6 episodes - perhaps at The Alamo Drafthouse here in Austin. The notion of an 11 hour DOCTOR WHO marathon/retrospective...featuring classic episodes from past Doctors, leading up to a brand new, upcoming episode...had even been mulled. We were looking into several other coverage avenues beyond all of this. So, whatever's happening...has impacted far more than my ability to pre-screen new eps. And I am flummoxed. Concurrently, I'm noticing that an increasing number of British sites are now posting spoiler-free reviews of upcoming episodes - many of which are longer and more revealing that my comparatively humble write-ups used to be. My understanding is that BBC has a web interface through which advance viewings are possible if BBC has created the proper account for you. At least, this is how it's done via BBCA, and it *appears* to be the same set-up for BBC proper. My hope is to connect with someone in BBC proper to see if they might be willing to help in this regard. I haven't heard back from them, either. Quite frankly, AICN's usual response to matters of this ilk would be to cease providing any kind of coverage to the title in question. But I love DOCTOR WHO - and cherish y'all Docbackers - far too much to pull the run out from under the whole shebang. I know you folks don't come to the Friday Docbacks to listen to me bitch and moan about dull internal politics, and I apologize sincerely that this has been the case over the past few weeks. But since some of you have taken the time to write in and ask, and I'm being asked about it in the real world as well, I thought I'd offer an update. And, MOV, please know that by sharing these details I am not placing *any* level of expectation on you. I'm just answering some questions from AICN readers...while aggravated as hell.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:11 a.m. CST

    sunspot mike

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    The metaphor was delightful, although I imagine we want Mr. Smith and his chums to be batting a 1.000 rather than a 0.1000, as the latter is not as good as the former. Naturally, the previews available don't focus on the really meaty bits (which they shouldn't), but there's so much to like in this, which you've probably seen: (avoid if you want nothing, of course) That I can't wait to see how it's offset dramatically by the morality play we've been led to believe constitutes a major part of the narrative. Oh, tomorrow is going to be terrific - I can really smell a twist coming :)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:12 a.m. CST


    by Ed

    The preview clip with the mirrors looks amazing. Arthur always makes Rory interesting now, even in a little clip he and Matt play so well.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:14 a.m. CST

    merrick - Why don't you branch out, and create an actual Docback site

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    away from AICN? I do web design from time to time, and I would help anyway I can. You could call the site The Docback, or Linda's Lot, or something/anything. I am just wondering if the BBC is neglecting you because of the connection to AICN? I would hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:18 a.m. CST

    Did my post get deleted?

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:20 a.m. CST

    Never mind....the talkbacks are acting up again.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:25 a.m. CST


    by Merrick

    That thought had crossed my mind. The most perplexing thing about the matter is that we were well-engaged and moving along quite nicely until... ** kapoof ! ** As far as hauling the Docback elsewhere? 'Tis a notion that springs to mind every now and then but I feel that it shouldn't be done UNLESS there was an overwhelming reason to make it so - I'd be too afraid of losing the well-established, nicely forged community we've established *here.* But if something ever happened to AICN, *or* if it became clearly evident that association with AICN was in some way a detriment to 'the bigger picture' (the possibility you suggest)...then relocation might well be something to seriously consider. And I truly appreciate your offer of assistance. I might well come-a-callin' someday.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Merrick re: BBCA

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Here's a possibility: that the Docbacks have become a victim of their own success, inasmuch that perhaps the powers that be of BBCA have noticed that the amount of traffic this site is getting, and the lightly but cleverly moderated, multi-person review system of the Docbacks, is actually generating better word-of-mouth than having a one-shot review plus subsequent comments would have done. So, looking on the bright side, you've succesfully democratised the reviewing process! Mind you, even if that were the case, that doesn't excuse the lack of contact you are getting from your contacts at BBCA, which I really hope is all just a misunderstanding and/or oversight, although given the time-span involved that does seem unfortunately unlikely. With regards to communicating with BBCA, I recommend a pigeon with a note detailing your aggravations attached to its foot , because even if BBCA don't respond to it, if you've trained the pigeon well enough it can shit on them before it leaves. Oh, and because I haven't mentioned it this week yet, the Docbacks are tremendous, and are the reason I finally decided to start posting on AICN some eleven years after I first came here, so keep up the good work.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Merrick and MOV

    by The_Mad_Groper

    Thanks again fro going to bat (continuing the metaphors from earlier posts!) for us docbackers! It is really appreciated! As far as why they are doing what they are doing... it seems a little insane, but thats what corporations do... but just a thought, could it be the links to watch previous episodes in the talkbacks... or even the clips you sometimes use? They get a little "jumpy" over copyright. MOV, I don't know why some of the docbackers always look for things to complain about with new episodes... each one is its own unique thing and as with each thing has its ups and downs.. but I have been loving this season and cant wait to see where we end up! Amy and Rory have slowly been climbing up to be my favorite compainions and it seems like every episode just endears them to me even more. And my guess at what is cool this week is long coats are cool!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    Love how Rory's developing

    by Master of Zinj

    One minute, he's a world-weary bad-ass; the next, he's a complete and utter coward (a lovable one of course). And yet it all fits together. Love it. On a separate note - I wonder if we'll ever see Jeff from TEH again... He might be best friends with Patrick Moore by now...

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:35 a.m. CST

    Anytime Merrick.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    You would figure that the BBC would want an American fan communtiy for one of their shows, and support it anyway they can?! It all comes down to ratings and $$$, so I don't see why they would stop assisting with what was a good thing.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST

    Thank god, a new docback

    by Evilmeister

    I was starting to get the jitters. Really stoked for this episode. Having spent years downloading entire volumes of stuff to watch - the Moffs Dr Who has got me back to being a kiddie again and feeling the pains of waiting an entire week to get my next fix. Long live the docback!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Could it just be a spoiler issue?

    by Extr3m1st

    Maybe the semi spoilers that AICN provides in the hidden text has something to do with you no longer receiving any love from BBCA? Just taking a wild guess.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:46 a.m. CST


    by Fuck The Napkin

    From the trailer it looks like a bit of a head-twister and I'm very much looking forward to it. Doctor Who's taking up a large portion of my brain right now and I'm loving it. :) I bought the new issue of 'Doctor Who Adventures' yesterday, which came with a bow tie, sonic screwdriver, psychic paper and TARDIS key, and had an awesome time running around the house dressed as the Doctor, giggling as I went. I'm 34 years old.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:04 p.m. CST

    So this is the Pond-centric episode

    by donkey_lasher

    Could they have called this one "Amy's Choice"?

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    fuck the napkin

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    From the POV of the Doctor, you *are* but a child, so that makes your running around entirely legitimate. I had a dream last night where the Doctor returned to the Land of Fiction and joined forces with Sherlock Holmes and Meursault, and together they defeated the assembled hordes of Papa Lazarou. Oh, it was great, so it was.

  • I'm a HUGE fan of developmental artwork from movies and television series - I own an enormous number of "Art Of..." titles featuring concept art, pre-production sketches, paintings, and various other developmental imagery. Going through the older (unedited) DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIALS I'm noticing an *enormous* amount of concept art (creature sketches and artwork, spaceship designs, Dalek progressions, costume sketches) in the background of numerous talking heads. I'm wondering if anyone's ever released an "Art of..." book for DOCTOR WHO? Some of the stuff you can see in glimpses and fragments looks pretty astonishing - a book load of it...or even an iPad app (or official .pdf issuance)...would be pretty amazing I should think. I've also noticed that some art from vintage Doctors still appears to exist. It could be a staggeringly cool publication.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:11 p.m. CST

    This might be a spoiler...

    by GeptaOO1

    . . . . . . swords are cool spoilriffically a katana! katanas are cool!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST

    What I want is TARDIS blueprints, so I can build my own!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    I would love to have my own TARDIS to set in the family room. Plus, my kids would go bonkers over it! The wife....maybe. lol

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:13 p.m. CST

    Mr. Napkin

    by maxwello

    Bow ties are cool. Fezs are cool. Stetsons are cool. Giggling . . .? Not so much.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:20 p.m. CST

    This is a really good episode...

    by huskerdu2

    ...and very different to anything else this season. Essentially a three-hander, it's got a great central idea which they stick to and let play out properly. All three leads are great, but it's the Ponds turn to shine and they do. Also, brilliant direction from Nick Hurran. Some of the best in Nu Who. As good as this is, eps 11 and 12 are meant to be even better. You have been warned!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    I'm sure you've all seen this

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    But I'm posting it here because I love it so very much, and Mr Napkin's comment brought it back to mind. It contains a large amout of black-and-white footage, but no spoilers unless you've never seen any very early old Who: Hooray!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    I think I'm preferring Rory as a companion to Amy right now...

    by V'Shael

    Arthur is just playing the comedy aspects so brilliantly. From things like :I'll break out the big guns in the ganger two parter, to taking up the motorbike in Berlin : I expect so, it's been that sort of day. He's really shaping up to be one of the best things in the show.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Still, we still have Amy's funny little ***** to play with.

    by Perigee

    ... I don't even know how to respond to that; it's like a pitch that just hovers in the center of the strike zone, waiting for you to swing at it. I don't think there's any need or sense in moving the docback; we obviously don't need BBCA's help in keeping the forum hopping, but, in all likelihood, the foot traffic of AICN is keeping our membership thriving. Spinning off to an indy website would isolate us, and, with a year of no DW in front of us, it would quickly become a tombstone. Forget Press Relations people, Merrick - they are pesty little creatures that have only one use in life: Poorly promoting work that they can take no credit for. Some are helpful, some are not, and some have delusions of granduer.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:09 p.m. CST

    build your own TARDIS

    by GeptaOO1

    a quick google search and I discovered this i skimmed through this, and it looks far beyond the 2 months of woodworking shop class taught me back in high school. I too would love to build myself a TARDIS... Something that lights up and makes noises.... I wonder what it would cost to build.... random question are there any Doctor Who role playing games? I guess I could ask google....

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Merrick - Doctor Who concept art

    by Mister Vertue

    I could only find these two links: and I assume the book will be hard to find now, due to it being issued in 2005, and the official BBC website will most likely contain further artwork from other series of the show if you searched for it. As far as an actual hardback concept artbook, I'm very surprised they haven't tapped into that market yet. Oh, and I just emailed you at the address given above regarding your pre-screener problem. How much of a help it'll be, I really can't say, but hopefully something will come of it. Good luck!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Hey mavalcar

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Yeah, I saw that as well. I downloaded, and I think there has to be a better Blueprint out there somewhere. I would do it in fiberglass, for weight issues. The only thing really stopping me is the time to work on it. I think I might make this a summer project next year, that is if the country hasn't already colapsed by then. As for RPG's for Doctor Who, that is a good question, and would think that during the 80's, there must of been one.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    How about a Blake's 7 talkback?

    by jbs9200

    merrick, how about you get downloading and start serving up a weekly Blake's 7 talkback. After last week I realized how much I miss that show. Started watching it (yet again). The first 3 episodes were far better than I remembered. Those could be remade for a new series without material changes.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Yay! Docback!

    by ByTor

    Glad to be back. Couldn't participate in the last one much as I didn't even get to see Night Terrors until late Wednesday. I did enjoy it -- in fact, it shot to the top of my Gatiss list (which now goes Night Terrors, The Unquiet Dead, The Idiot's Lantern, and Victory of the Daleks). Creepy fun. Looking forward to this week's. Also, I agree with others here who've said that Rory has really come into his own this season. He's been marvelous. Merrick: sorry to hear about your troubles with BBCA. Shame they aren't at least being professional about things.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    FASA used to have Doctor Who role playing game

    by V'Shael

    back in the Davison era. Though as I recall, you played a renegade timelord, like the Doctor, but not him. Allowing you to be killed, obviously.

  • My daughter is in 2nd grade, and the class today had to do an art picture on anytype of hero. The teacher was trying to tell the kids about terrorist destroying the World Trade Center, and about terrorist acts in general. So, now she is terrorfied about terrorist crashing damn planes into our house. But that is just one reason I am pissed off. The other is that she failed her project because she drew Captain America, because to her, that is an American hero, and the teacher told her that is a false hero! WTF is wrong with the American public school system!? I am ripping the school a new asshole come Monday. Sorry to vent on the Docbacks, but to brainwash 7 year olds into being affaid of everything, and telling them that what they believe to be good is wrong is just plain wrong!!!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    cool bowties.... of two different colours!!

    by CB Chap

    What colour tomorrow and which Dr wears which one!! Pure speculation.... not spoiler!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    ithrat_cordwallis' logic is sound

    by tomdolan04

    If previous relations with your contact were fine then suddenly stopped, it is a pain from a personal perspective that you didn't get any insight into them stopping. <p> From past PR dealings I'd hazard a guess and say the Docbacks are indeed a victim of their own success. They are consistently the TB's generating the most posts and probably traffic for the site over the weekends. From fairly basic 'user posted' reviews of the early Series 5 shows, these talkbacks have snowballed into spawning coverage of all eras and episodes - even when technically new episodes are off the air. <p> The BBC would not see this necessarily as a positive - as many would in terms of free advertising for their show. They may see a site in AICN (not Merrick personally) as being quite uncontrollable editorially. If there's one thing they like it's control over their trademarked property, even when it's possibly to their detriment. <p> That's the one reason why trashy TV mags are probably still receiving their screeners - ever seen a negative write up of a future episode of ANYTHING in those rags? Nope me neither.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST


    by Mister Vertue

    Sorry to hear about that, it sounds unforgivable. I used to be an educator and although it *is* a tough job, some teachers make their lives so much more difficult by trying to push their own agenda onto their pupils. I hope the head of the department is able to help you resolve the matter. Just remember, try to keep a cool head and you'll be more likely to get a positive result. Good luck!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:06 p.m. CST

    That said

    by tomdolan04

    I've barely seen Harry give anything a negative review in the last few years. "It's not completely horrible" doesn't count <p> Just joking. Probably been asked before but what does Harry make of Who?

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    MOV, I am the Fonz, and what is the Fonz? Cool, that's what!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    I will be polite during the conversation, but as soon as my daughter is of age, I am putting her through an art school of some type. She excells in art of all types, and is already ahead of her class. Thanks for the advice MOV. I know it has to be hard at times to be a teacher, but as a teacher, you must know where to draw a line between what is suppose to be taught, and what isn't.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Free advertising

    by CB Chap

    Why the BBC wants to scupper ther AICN relationship seems self defeating to me.... these conversations generate conversations, speculation and most importantly, interest by adults of what is a Saturday night TV kids show in the UK. Over 6 million watch LKH in the UK..... not bad at all....... here's to more free advertising and fun debate.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:23 p.m. CST

    As another ex-teacher...

    by Peter

    ...let me echo MOV's suggestion that politeness is generally well received by educators. Get their backs up and prepare to wait a LONG time for resolution of your issues. I'm in the UK and my exposure to Captain America has only been through the recent film, which I had a thoroughly excellent time watching. Could the problem be that Cap is just a wee bit fictional?

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:25 p.m. CST

    MJG that is indeed bad

    by HornOrSilk

    Your daughter is in 2nd grade? Come on, comic book heroes are heroes. I could even think a college class could be had talking about the way Captain America, Superman, Popeye and others helped inspire Americans. Sad, pathetic, and the teacher knows little to know history, I fear.

  • It ended up over 8 million as I recall. Big increase.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Kids in 2nd grade often have "fictional characters" as heroes. Heck, I have fictional characters as heroes. Superman, Captain American, Popeye really did a lot for morale in WWII. Frodo and the Doctor do a lot of morale boosting for me.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    v'shael the FASA Doctor Who Game

    by HornOrSilk

    I remember my desire to see the Trial of a Time Lord first came from Dragon Magazine doing an "update" for the game based upon the 6th Doctor.... talk about bringing back memories!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    And the thing is, she doesn't even read or like comics.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    She just knows that Captain America is an American hero. The project the teacher gave didn't give details about real or fictional according my daughter. And from what my understanding is, one of the other students drew Superman, and they passed! I will get the full details on Monday of what transpired. But, yeah, I will be very polite and calm during the meeting, while kindly giving the faults of the project.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:38 p.m. CST

    I got my info from a crap TV mag!!!

    by CB Chap

    Still, it is impressive considering what is happening on the other side......

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:44 p.m. CST


    by ByTor

    As the father of an artistic daughter, I can only say, prepare for issues in public school. Art-y types are frequently misunderstood. In high school it got so bad that once she turned 17 we took her out. She immediately passed her GED test and started at community college for a year, then transferred to SAIC. She's now much happier. I do wonder if the assignment was regarding actual heroes as opposed to fictional ones, however. others recommend, calm and polite are the best approaches for dealing with the school.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST


    by Peter

    Sure, and that's fine. I look up to many fictional characters. I'm just wondering if Cap's ignominious rejection was because the teacher was looking for an admirable historical figure as opposed to anything the character stands for. As it happens, I was rather charmed by the naivete and sincere intentions of Steve Rogers, despite having never read the funnybook. It was an antidote to endless wisecracking superheroes and moodily gothic tragedies. Despite my best efforts, I find it hard to invest too much gravity in a tale which is essentially about a man who dresses up as a bat to fight crime. Yet, superheroes are worth celebrating; peculiarly American and rather revealing about your psyche. I'm not knocking it... you've got Superman, us Brits have the pantomime. Now what does that say about US?!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST


    by DoctorTom

    It sounds like the teacher has some serious issues if she's claiming Captain America is a 'false hero'. If I were you I would set up a meeting with the teacher for her to try to explain things. Captain America is a perfectly fine hero for someone to have, and anybody trying to live up to the ideals that Captain America tries to live up to should be admired. I suppose the teacher has problems with America? Or is it just that she thinks that fictional characters - like Captain America, Superman, or Doctor Who for that matter - shouldn't be allowed to be viewed as heroes? <br> If you can't get satisfaction from talking with the teacher, I'd escalate by going to the principal. This sounds like someone taking out their personal agenda on your child, and that's not right. Telling your daughter a perfectly good example of a hero is a false hero shouldn't be allowed to stand.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:47 p.m. CST

    v'shael - I agree about Rory

    by DoctorTom

    Arthur Darvill has been doing a good job every story this season. I'm hoping he gets to stick around because he's so fun to have around for his reactions.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:54 p.m. CST

    Why Steve Rogers is a hero...

    by V'Shael

    In a world where there's no shortage of people saying we should nuke the middle east, or convert by the sword, or that waterboarding isn't torture, and that torture is okay anyway... we got a hero who was asked So you want to go kill some Nazi's? And he said No Sir. I don't want to kill anybody. I just don't like bullies. That's why he's a hero.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:58 p.m. CST

    BBCA doesn't need free advertings, Luddite

    by Perigee

    There comes a point where a program is a full-blown commodity, and the consequences of not promoting it shift from the producers to the media. These docbacks slaughter all the other talkback threads by a huge margin. Part of that may be the members here - I went into another AICN thread yesterday, and it was an insult-ridden pesthole. But a major consideration has to be that people WANT to talk about it, and this is AICN's opportunity to let them do it. AICN profits by the docbacks by rolling up huge numbers of pageviews that bolster ad sales pitches, plus the ads on the page that are, in all likelihood, paid on the basis of the number of times the advertisement was served to an active page. To BBCA's view, AICN can stop talking about DW at their own peril. If you can't talk about it at AICN, you can go over and talk about it at Gallifrey Base, or Fark, or even, I suspect, on the BBC's DW website. No one loses, except AICN, who cut their nose off to spite their face. It's arrogance, but it's true. BBC is not trying to sell us ~Uncle Mike's Zombie Lobster.~ If it were, it would be bombarding us with lobster plushie giveaways, interview ops, 'behind the scenes' footage, and probably a contest to be the next lobster zombie victim. DW is already buzzing like a thousand beehives. The engine is running - no need to prime the pump. And it's right around then you find out just how much Press Relations really loves you.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    mj's ghost - another question to ask the teacher

    by DoctorTom

    was the purpose of the assignment to grade the people on who they choose as a hero, or to grade the drawings? If the former, then how can an objective standard be established for grading people on who they choose? Would she arbitrarily fail someone if they chose either President Bush or President Obama, would the teacher arbitrarily fail someone just because that the president the person chose wasn't of the political persuasion that the teacher agreed with? <br> Also, if fictional characters were not to be allowed, then why was this not communicated? For that matter, why is it okay to have Superman but not Captain America? Would it have been okay to have had Harry Potter? What about the Doctor? Someone who tries to avoid violence and instead use intelligence to work through problems wouldn't be allowed to be considered a hero? Does the teacher have a problem with the message that Intellect and romance triumph over brute force and cynicism!?

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Bytor, I have a 4 year old Autistic son who goes to an ELP to help him to be ready for when Kindergarden. In just two years, he has developed so much, but, me and my wife fear about him going into public school just for the same reasons you have. There is an school just for kids with different spectrums of Autism that we hope he can get enrolled into. doctom, according to my daughter, the teacher said "any" type of American hero. I will find out the teachers point of view on Monday, on the full details of the project. 7 year olds don't fully understand that Police, Firefighters, and even parents are "heroes", and I think at their age, they shouldn't have thoughts of terrorism on their minds.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Outnumbered is airing on BBC 1 and featured one of the kids

    by V'Shael

    just playing a Dalek with the missing toilet plunger in the background. DOCTOR THERE IS NO ESCAPE EXTERMINATE Nice cross promotion on BBC1. :)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    v'shael, Rory is awesome, he sort of reminds me of...

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Ash from the Evil Dead trilogy. Is a coward at times, but when he needs to, becomes a badass!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:07 p.m. CST

    v'shael - cool!

    by DoctorTom

    I'll have to track down the episode of outnumbered (I'm not sure how much of a delay there is before it will be shown in the US - I don't even know if they're showing the current season yet on BBC America)

  • this post is to try to break the curse of the hidden posts - putting up something like this usually makes previously hidden posts appear)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:54 p.m. CST

    oh well, maybe not

    by DoctorTom

    at least it beats reading LordofLight bashing RTD's handling of Doctor Who in the Torchwood thread.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 3:58 p.m. CST

    The Clue

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Is in the wine drinking in TIA...the Doctor has had wine many times in his life...yet the one at the lake spits it out...hence, not the Doctor..:P lol or I could be completely mental

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Doctom - I am not going anywhere near the Torchwood talkback.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    There is nothing to be said about that show. The only thing I can say is, now that it flopped, we can hope to have Jack back on Who.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    michael_jacksons_ghost - wise choice

    by DoctorTom

    A lot of the comments match that. The problem is that somebody brought up the comedy Cucumber that RTD is trying to get going on Showtime, and apparently that was like throwing red meat to the lions.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:15 p.m. CST


    by DoctorTom

    I was thinking he tried some in another Matt Smith episode and having a similar reaction - maybe I'm hallucinating it though.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST

    Jack is going to come back and prove to be Davros

    by HornOrSilk

    Explaining why no one can kill him.. Ok, this is NOT going to happen. But I wanted to see who would believe me!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Actually, I think Mickey was beginning to be like Rory but they had him depart and so never was able to become what we see with him. Mickey's story was hijacked, imo. Nonetheless, I am glad to see Rory and I think he has all kinds of hidden secrets which we might one day see come to light.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:24 p.m. CST

    No, Jack is going to be a future regeneration of the Master

    by DoctorTom

    which makes the Season 3 Master episodes interesting, letting his earlier self kill him. Now, Rose just got him stuck regenerating into the same body all the time and made it so that when he regenerates they don't have to waste money on special 'regeneration sparklies' effects.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    How can anyone not love Sylvester after watching that clip?

    by V'Shael

    He's just brilliant. And the thought of his Doctor fiddling with another Doctors sonic screwdriver, and dismissing it as some sort of useless relic, amuses me no end. As for the Pandorica speech, I'd simply say it doesn't look like he's rehearsed it or anything. It's also wasn't written for his Doctor. And I still think he does a wonderful job.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    This recent Torchwood has been beyond terrible

    by tomdolan04

    Probably RTD's worst output ever. Sure his era of Who had many, many faults but I thought overall he had a good conceptual grasp of what he wanted to do and the stories he wanted to tell (whether you liked it or not). <p> Miracle Day has been absolutely all over the place in terms of characters/plot and direction. I thought RTD's 'Second Coming' mini-series was quite a good three parter back in the mid nineties with Christoper Eccleston - I can't believe the recent shitfest was from the same guy.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:39 p.m. CST

    Jack is going to regenerate into Amys House

    by tomdolan04

    which turns out to be a Tardis right? <p>

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST

    And the oldest question in the Universe

    by tomdolan04

    isn't going to be 'why are there no ducks in a duck pond' you crazy cats!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:41 p.m. CST

    And Jack's words, "You are not alone"

    by HornOrSilk

    Was meant to be about him watching Amy.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Actually, horn

    by DoctorTom

    it as meant to be about him watching the Doctor watching Amy.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:42 p.m. CST

    MJG: Schools

    by ByTor

    MJG: I wish you the best with your son in school. My experience with my kids has been that the public schools are pretty good dealing with kids that fit into a ''typical'' framework, but if you break out of that, everything goes to hell. My daughter has had a number of medical issues, including spinal issues that cause her chronic pain. There are days where she has difficulty walking, sitting, etc. We had countless meetings with the school. We asked if they could keep a set of books in the classroom (so she could leave her books at home and not have to carry those heavy things around), but they were unwilling or unable to do this. She missed a lot of school while she went through various medical procedures, etc. They had her do summer school, rearranged her class schedules, etc. so as to try and keep up. The big problem was P.E. She couldn't do P.E. We figured if she got better she could make it up. Then, a year and a half into this mess, they tell us that they only have one low-motion P.E. class per semester, so she can't double up. Despite doctor's notes, etc., they refused to excuse her and said that even if she got all her academic classes made up, she wouldn't be able to graduate until she was 20 or 21. That pissed me off tremendously. At this point she was 3 weeks away from 17 (the age at which she could drop out), so I told her to stay home. I told her I'd call her in sick for three weeks, whereupon she could then withdraw and go get her G.E.D. She ended up starting college a semester early as a result (where she's getting As). Also, many of the administrators were just assholes. It was a very frustrating experience overall. I hope you don't have these kinds of problems, but if you do, start thinking outside the box.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:43 p.m. CST

    Friday docback!

    by Rebel Scumb

    Woooowho! Get it? Woooo WHO ;) Yeah I'm THAT lame. Alrighty, thought I'd just chime in now to wish everyone a good weekend. I'm going into radio silence to avoid spoilers, and whatnot (and to get some more writing done!) but will post my thoughts after I see the The Girl Who Waited tomorrow night.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:45 p.m. CST


    by tomdolan04

    It was about Amy House watching the Duck Pond to see if the Ducks returned to ensure **** didn't ***** **** with Salad. <p> I'm home alone with a sore wisdom tooth and drinking vodka, sue me!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    michael jacksons ghost

    by Rebel Scumb

    Just read your post about the school travesty. That is just plain awful on so many levels. It makes me think back to the 3rd grade (mid to late 1980s) when there hadn't been as much of a seperation of church and state yet, and at the PUBLIC school where I went, the teachers would make all the non-christian kids stand in the hall while the lords prayer was played over the PA system in the morning along with the national anthem. I just realized, its funny that we make kids stand up every day and sing the national anthem at school, then as soon as you finish high school you never have to do that again except at a hockey game... If its so important (is it?) why don't we have to do it in college or at our jobs or at the shopping mall? If its not important why do we make kids do it?? It's like writing essays. So much of education is devoted to developing perfectly honed essay writing skills with all the minutae of the structure and rules. Then once you're done school, unless you go into academics or a few other specific professions you will never need to write an essay again in your life. So dumb, anyways fight the good fight at the school, because that is definitely complete bullshit top to bottom what the teacher did.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 4:52 p.m. CST

    re: no ducks in the duck pond

    by Rebel Scumb

    That's why I don't read too much into lines on the show, because everyone was certain that would turn out to be important, and it ended up not meaning anything. Except that later in that episode the doctor tells (Amy) Pond to 'duck!'

  • here is another of Sly's panels from DragonCon 2011. About an hour long, and very funny.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:12 p.m. CST

    @Rebel Scumb - The line was slightly important...

    by V'Shael

    for theme of the season. Things could be removed through the cracks in time, like Rory, or the ducks or Amy's parents, but they don't quite vanish completely. Amy remembered what her mom did with apples, everyone remembered that the pond was a duck pond, even though they couldn't remember any ducks there, and Rory was eventually remembered even though he'd fallen through the cracks also. As was The Doctor and his TARDIS.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:17 p.m. CST

    Merrick - Doctor Who concept art

    by Trasky

    Thankfully my copy survived my emigration from Cardiff to Wellington NZ so as an update The Art of Doctor Who was a free giveaway with the Uk fantasy magazine SFX so wasn't available to buy seperately as more of a promotional peice to coincide with the Eccelston season, It was produced in conjunction with To be honest if still available Doctor Who the Inside Story by Gary Russell contains some nice production art and covers the Ecceslton and Tennant handover period. But it is more of making of book that happens to contain production art. ISBN 0- 563 48649. Anyhow loving the docbacks even though Lets kill Hitler is five days away from showing in NZ but I cant wait.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:23 p.m. CST

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    bytor - Thanks man. I figure we would see how the first five years go for him, and if we think that he needs to be in a different learning enviroment, then we will take it from there. Rebel Scumb - Trust me, if I had the money to take her out of public school, I would. Yeah, it is very messed up what happened to her, but I told her not to worry about things like that, and that nothing is going to hurt her. As for the teacher, like I said in other posts, I will hear the teachers side to find out the full details of the event, and if anything needs to be said, it will be said in a polite tone.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:24 p.m. CST

    Later Docbackers, see you all Monday, and enjoy the episode!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Cheers, and goodnight!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:24 p.m. CST

    For anyone interested in Doctor Who concept art

    by Trasky

    Here is a link to Peter McKinstry's web site choc full of Doctor Who concept art, eye candy for the soul.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:26 p.m. CST

    Sorry I'm quiet....

    by GeptaOO1

    it's Friday so that means I've got to clean the house....... which of course means I'm procrastinating by distracting myself with watching tv, instead of focusing on what needs to be done.... Plus I went to bed early yesterday so i haven't watched my thursday night dose of couch potato TV... i.e. Burn Notice, Louis, Wilfred, Rookie Blue... michael_jacksons_ghost - I hope your meeting with the teacher goes well on Monday... I remember in 2nd grade (christian school), it was near Halloween (which was considered an EVIL holiday by the school) we were given an assignment to draw a disney character, and glue it to the front of a pumpkin..... I drew a picture of Roger Rabbit.... and almost got expelled....

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:30 p.m. CST

    The 9/11 observation lessons in school

    by History101

    As a History teacher in the public school system, i know that in least here in Texas, there are actual notations in our state curriculum that ask us to teach about 9/11. I would ask that we take it easy making blanket statements about the state of our education system and even prejudging what a teacher meant before actually having a meeting to find out. I could speculate things about how the lesson was structure that MIGHT explain things, but just like everyone else, I was not there and am not sure what the intent and what the instructions were.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by ByTor

    ''It's like writing essays. So much of education is devoted to developing perfectly honed essay writing skills with all the minutae of the structure and rules. Then once you're done school, unless you go into academics or a few other specific professions you will never need to write an essay again in your life.'' I'm actually going to disagree on this. Even in a typical office job, being able to write clearly and concisely is important. Writing essays may seem mind-numbing, but it teaches you basic structure and how to present a thesis. You may not realize it consciously, but any time you write an email to a client or vendor or coworker trying to convince them of something, you're doing this. If anything, given the number of emails I get from coworkers that use ''where'' instead of ''were,'' or ''your'' instead of ''you're,'' I'd argue that a little more time teaching writing in school wouldn't be a bad thing.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Back on the subject of Doctor Who...

    by ByTor

    So we've introduced another family friend to Who. Started a couple weeks or so ago with Rose; just watched The Lodger, The Pandorica Opens, and The Big Bang last night. When River Song showed up as Cleopatra, our friend said, ''Whoa, she's just full of surprises!'' My son and I looked at each other, started laughing, and said, ''You have ABSOLUTELY no idea!''

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:16 p.m. CST

    v'shael I guess that's a good point

    by Rebel Scumb

    I hadn't thought of it that way.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    I roped another person into Doctor Who fandom

    by Rebel Scumb

    My cousin who is a super cool geek and very talented artist but some how never got into scifi throughout his youth or young adulthood, suddenly got into it in a big way the past few years. He's seen all of Trek now aside from TOS, and was waiting for me to bring over the blu-rays, but I was busy and couldn't so he started watching Dr. Who (with the eccelston stuff) and is now really digging that.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Essay Writing

    by Steve

    This is my first post in a DocBack so please go easy guys. I also have to take issue with the relevance of developing reasonable writing skills, it would be nice to see a higher level of writing across the board as it is degenerating at a startling rate and very few people seem to care (although the ones that do can protest with an admirable amount of passion). Now go ahead and note any spelling and grammar mistakes in my post and thus complete negate my argument.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:18 p.m. CST

    glad to hear it michael jacksons ghost

    by Rebel Scumb

    good to see there are still a few rational people left in the world who can deal with things like adults.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:20 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for proper grammer, concise logical use of language, and whatnot. I just mean the extremely rigid essay type writing that teachers will only allow in one particular style. But yes, as someone who works in an office as well, I see what you mean and that is a valid point.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:23 p.m. CST

    the boy with the arab strap

    by Rebel Scumb

    Just to reiterate, I'm not against a higher caliber of writing skills being taught. If anything that's one of the things I care most deeply about. I just wish school (at least the ones I attended) had presented a broader range of styles and mediums to teach this. Believe me, it saddens my heart to see the death of the English language in the younger generations who are growing up with 'txt' speak, instant messaging and all that razzamataz.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:28 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by Steve

    No worries! That is just a bit of a hot button topic with me and I jumped the gun, my apologies. It can get me in trouble and my wife is constantly vigilant, the time when she grabbed my arm and held on when I attempted to remonstrate with someone wearing a "Punks not dead" T shirt, I like punk as much as the next guy but that needs an apostrophe in my opinion.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:31 p.m. CST

    No worries at all

    by Rebel Scumb

    No one is more guilty of that than me. As my rant about essays clearly shows!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:38 p.m. CST

    Re: Outnumbered

    by vadakinX

    I started watching Outnumbered a few months back and I have to say I think it's the best show with kids in it that I've seen in a long time. I don't know if it's the writing or the acting or the direction but I've honestly never seen kids on screen acting so natural, especially the two younger kids. The writing overall is clever but I think what really makes it work is that they don't seem to go for the "perfect" take where the kids hit their lines exactly. You see brief moments where the kids are trying to remember their lines but it doesn't come across as a screw up, rather it comes across as a kid trying to think of something to say in response to the situation. It's unbelievable how natural it is and how well it flows. Anyways, we now return you to your regularly scheduled Docback.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:43 p.m. CST

    Merrick - Re: Old episodes.

    by vadakinX

    I appear to be using "Re" quite a bit today. Anyways Merrick, even though the show is obviously back on, are you still doing retrospectives on old episodes? Of course the focus is on the new episode airing each week but given that you post the Docback up to 24 hours before the UK broadcast, I wondered if you were continuing the retrospectives for people to talk about or whether you'll just wait until the show goes off air again at the end of the season. Like you and quite a few others, my interest in Who began with the 2005 relaunch. I think the only other Who I've seen has been the TV movie and the Cushing stuff. I am planning on going back to old Who and I have to say I've been fascinated by what you've shared about your own experiences with Classic Who.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:43 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    welcome to the docbacks :) oh and I love belle & sebastion! Great band!

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:57 p.m. CST

    BYOT (Build Your Own TARDIS) and McCoy

    by gotilk

    Hello DocBackers!!! It's the goatlicker back with ya. First off, it's always been something I've wanted to do, building a TARDIS, but I'd love to do it with an unexpected twist. I'd love to build it into a false wall that leads to the classic TARDIS control room set. Wouldn't that be a blast? Have the control console double as a bar. Maybe have a side room leading off to a more modern version second room with perhaps a hot tub or a small pool. Done in the more steampunkish style. What a dream, eh? Hey that one guy turned his apartment into a set from Star Trek, so it could be done. Can't have the Trekkers outdoing us can we? AND.... That McCoy interview was HIGHLY entertaining. The more old Who I watch, I have to be honest, the closer McCoy is to becoming my second favorite Doctor. And I know there are others here with the same unpopular opinion. Hope you are all well. And what is this talk of "moving" DocBack? BAH!!! No way. It would die elsewhere, just slowly enough so that all would seem well for a while. Like the frog in slowly boiling water myth.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 6:59 p.m. CST

    Water Myth?

    by gotilk

    No thank you, I'm not even thirthty.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Rebel Scump

    by vadakinX

    When I was in school (in Ireland), on the run up to what was apparently the most important exam of my life...until the next class was given mock English exams to do in order to prepare us. Part of the exam was writing a short story. So I wrote one that I actually remember vividly. Keep in mind I was around 14 at the time (I'm 27 now) so that the story I wrote stuck with me is saying something, especially for my scattered brain. But I digress. The story itself was filled with profane dialogue and violent scenes. When my English teacher read it, he promptly gave me a fail grade on the whole exam and sent me to the Vice Principal - but I refused to go. I wasn't a troublemaker in school but for some reason I got the urge to fight my corner and refused to leave the class. I told the teacher that if he wanted me to see the Vice Principal, he would have to come to the class as I believed what was going on was unfair. So the Vice Principal came down to the class and the other students are of course thinking I'm going to get expelled or something. The Vice Principal told the rest of the class to I left with them. I know, I know...I was a bit full of it. I refused to talk to the teacher and Vice Principal in private. To this day I don't know why, I wasn't the popular kid and wasn't looking for an audience for my antics, I just felt it needed to be open and honest. So we all go back into class, by this stage my mother has been called so I'm in real shit now. Even though it was a mock exam and had no bearing on anything whatsoever, I refused to accept the automatic fail for using profanity in my short story. It was only when my mother came in that I agreed to talk in private. So we had it out. I was told in no uncertain circumstances that I couldn't use such language. I asked why. I was given the typical response. "It's profane, it's not suitable for an exam etc etc" You don't use that kind of language. And that's when I got on my soapbox. I asked for the exam paper back and started going through the story pretty much line by line, making a point that I wasn't using profanities to be shocking or to cause trouble, I was using them because the character was in a terrible situation in the story and that anyone in that particular situation, going through what the character was going through, wouldn't care about being polite or "correct." The character is scared shitless and the dialogue reflected that. I spent 10 minutes ranting on how the profanities were vital to understanding the character's state of mind and personality. I won them over. I was advised that in the actual exam, I wouldn't have the opportunity to make my case and thus I should avoid using profanities to ensure that I passed the exam. My mock exam was regraded and I was given a C. I asked why I was given a C if my story was now deemed OK and the reason was simple - the rest of the exam answers were garbage. Ha. On a side note, when arguing my case I used Die Hard as an example, saying that John McClane using profanities was fine because that's just who the character was. Little did I know that he would be muzzled in Die Hard 4. Oh well.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 7:17 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    where's that video camera you promised me?

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 8:28 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Dude, you still want it? Email me with address. I'll catch you up with what's up... and I wanna know how you are and what you've been up to. It's been a weird couple of years for me. Mom in and out of hospital still... needs 24/7 care now. She's a tough cookie, that one. But quite a handful. Hope you're well. get me now at that's the one I have to keep close tabs on, so it's the best way to get me.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 8:57 p.m. CST


    by Merrick

    *** Anyways Merrick, even though the show is obviously back on, are you still doing retrospectives on old episodes? *** Definitely still doing them - they'll be a primary (although not exclusive) focal point as we build a long, long bridge between S6 and S7. Felt more organic (and was easier clerically) to place new WHO and retro-WHO onto different tracks.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 8:59 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    I'm 37, and I spend an unhealthy amount of time sneaking around my home scanning things with various sonic screwdrivers.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 9:05 p.m. CST

    Michael Jackson

    by The Transformed Man

    I got blueprints for a police box on eBay a couple of years ago. I had rationalized building one in the living room and got caught before I'd gotten very far with my plans. Caused a little bit of domestic friction.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 9:09 p.m. CST

    School, language, etc.

    by ByTor

    I know a lot of people think that writing has gotten significantly worse, but I'm not convinced of that. Sure, it seems that way, but that's because thanks to the Internet EVERYBODY writes. Email, Facebook, Twitter, whatever. When I was young, that just didn't happen. There were no PCs on desks. Need to write a memo? You hand-write it (or dictate it) and give it to your secretary or someone in the typing pool (or steno pool). Hell, even low-level managers had secretaries. My mom ran a word processing department at a company full of engineers, and used to roll her eyes at some of the stuff the engineers used to hand in for typing.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 9:11 p.m. CST


    by ByTor

    Years ago I had the same thought. Build a police box into the corner of a wall, with it leading to a room beyond that would look like the TARDIS console room. Of course, in my ultimate dreams it would look like the one from the FOX movie, but then I think people would notice the warehouse attached to the back of my house.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 9:52 p.m. CST

    Welp, time to disengage

    by ByTor

    Going spoiler-free. Will re-join the Docback Sunday or Monday. Have a great weekend, everybody.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:03 p.m. CST

    You are not alone.

    by The Transformed Man

    That was a reference to man_of_vertue watching all of us. All the time.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:15 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    I've been known to stand in the street and yell at billboards that screw up "your"/"you're" and "its"/"it's" usage. I understand.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:18 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Yes, the addition of a warehouse would draw some attention. I love the console room from the Fox movie too. One of the better parts of the movie, really. The look of things almost made up for the Eric Roberts Master debacle. Talk about chewing up the scenery, he took scenery mastication to a whole new level.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:21 p.m. CST

    Its it's your you're.

    by gotilk

    It bugs me too, then I'll do it accidentally and want to kick myself. I guess I'm a grammar hypocrite. IT'S something I'd like to stop doing.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:22 p.m. CST

    A bit slow this Friday isn't it?

    by gotilk

    Anything happening anywhere that would keep *our people* occupied? CANNOT be 'merican football. CANNOT! (please gahd no)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:23 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    (that one is for an old friend)

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:44 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    I sent you a quick e-mail

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 10:49 p.m. CST

    @MJG on Schools

    by veteran_of_mu

    Like many people I had a thoroughly wretched time in school. Highlight was at age 7 when my teacher decided I needed remedial reading classes. I was reading Grahame and Lofting for fun at the time. My father resorted to getting me IQ tested but even then it took me sitting down and writing a 30 page essay before her eyes for the teacher to change tack ... After a lot of research we decided to place our child at a Steiner school. One year later we could not possibly be happier with our choice. Perfect for creative kids and in many instances there are assistance schemes that can help with the fees. Steiner basically uses the course of human history as the arc of its teaching system. Teachers move from year to year with their students until year 7, so parents get to really build a relationship with the teacher. And there's a deep emphasis on music, art, dance, math and language skills. In my child's school every child is taught at least two instruments and at least two languages every year. Main lessons this last year (year 5) involved ancient India, ancient Egypt, ancient Persia and ancient Greece. That's not just history - the kids also focused on recreating the music, math and art of those periods. There's none of the sit-down-and-shut-up thing going on, and the school prizes individual spirit over school spirit. The difference in this experience over the (actually pretty good) public school we used the past 5 years is just staggering. Really, if it were possible to go back to short pants and start over in this school, I'd be there in a heartbeat! As for failing Captain America but passing Superman ... what did Superman ever do that was heroic? He's invulnerable for crying out loud! He might save the occasional pretty woman falling off a building but it's not like he solves world hunger, overpopulation, corruption and so on. Faced with 9/11 I'd frankly rather have Cap on the case than Supes - wouldn't you? And of course the Doc before either of them ... Hey now ... that would make a kick-ass DW episode. Doc vs Supes vs Cap vs 9/11. By other names of course.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:17 p.m. CST

    v'shael - The Doctor Who RPG (1985)

    by Dreamfasting

    I have a copy of the Doctor Who RPG but never actually got a group together to play it. It goes up to Colin Baker's time and the rules were a nice balance of simplicity and detail. They included stats for the Doctor and several companions. Interestingly all the Doctor's incarnations had the same skills - no advancement in during all his years of travelling. It was amusing that Romana was better than the Doctor at operating the Tardis. Poor Peri fared the worst - she had only one skill: "Earth Archeology (untrained)" ... hmm, I'd forgotten that River wasn't the first archelogist he'd encountered.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:46 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Great! I had a HUGE (but late) Tomato crop this year. You would have been proud. Actually, they are still fruiting. Planted one next to cilantro and I swear those tomatoes have a slight cilantro flavor to them. Slightly "soapy" with a tiny spice bite. Maybe its just me, but I always thought cilantro had a mild soapy flavor under the spiciness. Looking forward to your e-mail.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:47 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Are you sure Peri didn't have a special attack called "SHRILL SHRIEK"??

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:48 p.m. CST

    DW RPG

    by The Transformed Man

    I could be making this up... but I could swear a few months back I saw a solicitation for a Doctor Who RPG in a Diamond Comics Previews catalog.

  • Sept. 9, 2011, 11:48 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    That school sounds incredible. I went to Montessori for a while. Reminds me of that a little, maybe a bit less stodgy.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 1:49 a.m. CST

    Not had a chance to catch up on all of the posts here......(slight spoiler)

    by sam jacksons wig cannot possibly respond to any of them at the moment! Hope all are well and looking forward to the Girl Who waited, which looks to be a slightly different animal to last weeks offering of Night Terrors, which managed to split the pack right down the middle between love and loathe!!! This one should, however, hit the mark with the older demograph, if we are to believe what we've been told. One piece of info for you all before I bid you adieu.... Amy’s favourite cat was called Biggles. What’s important is – that’s the name she DIDN’T use later on… Hmmmmmm- mystical!!! Stay safe!!! SJW.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 1:50 a.m. CST

    Will catch replay in London

    by Dan

    Comments about the Moff notwithstanding, this season - Matt Smith in particular - has been awesome. Haters can hate, but Gillan is hot. Herc - how the fuck are you not covering Strikeback?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:01 a.m. CST

    Thanks for the DocBacks

    by Steve

    Dropped by again to thank the DocBackers for a warm welcome. This place is an island of tranquility and harmony in an increasingly insane world. I enjoy reading the first 50 post of most other TalkBacks before they descend into chaos and abuse and I have to back away but you Wholigans keep it civil for nigh on 1000 posts at times, well played Sirs!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:04 a.m. CST

    Take it easy, Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Don't be spoiled by too much work!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:05 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    You are welcome; the Doctor always has a positive effect! Well, almost always.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:37 a.m. CST

    @gotilk on Montessori

    by veteran_of_mu

    Yes, Steiner and Montessori are closely related in early years. But we couldn't find a Montessori school here that goes all the way through high school - do they do that? Another advantage we have in Australia is that even public schools are well funded. Private schools get the same level of public funding, then top it up with parents' payments. So this campus is enormous and set in the middle of several acres of virgin bush in one of the nicest suburbs in my city. Lots of nice design work in the buildings and a creek runs through it. My child brings home vegetables the school teaches the kids how to grow and complains when the bush turkeys get into the tomatoes ... an echidna has been sighted on the grounds even though it is in the city. It is so rare to see kids being so well cared for and I am so envious. Having lived in the US for several years and seeing the wire fences and concrete that pass for schoolyards there, we feel doubly lucky. And participating in this I am really astonished at how easy it would be for all schools to work like this. It's a real shame most educators don't look further into the way Steiner works. Ob DW: perhaps education is the Doctor's real intent. I can easily imagine him playing like Mr Chips in an academy dedicated to evolving new Time Lords. Why wouldn't he want to do this?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:41 a.m. CST

    I was going to post my predictions for tonights episode...

    by V'Shael

    but I'm second guessing myself know, incase even the slightest bit of what I'm guessing is accurate. I would hate to spoil anyones episode tonight, when it's certain to be a corker. I'm going to hold off, and post my so-called predictions after the episode. Unless they were uncannily accurate, in which case I'll just thank my lucky stars I didn't post them...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:53 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts: fascinating info

    by gotilk

    And encouraging. Thanks. Yes, the High School up the street a couple of miles from here was designed by the same people who design prisons. And the way it's built is very much like a Panopticon-type prison. There's a central tower-like structure that stands in the center where they can watch all the classrooms and outer halls. And the classrooms have glass walls facing inward. Creepy. This focus on making sure ALL students meet certain standards is well-intentioned but insane. There will never be a class without a few people who will simply not *get* things or not be interested in *getting* things. And this *teaching to the test* nonsense has to stop, as well as these charter schools. It blew my mind when I noticed a sign on one school here that was called the *___ Vocational Training High School*. Of course every society needs a certain percentage of worker bees, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would have done to my brain if I had been tossed into one of those when I was a kid. You MUST encourage kids to be exceptional as a goal and stop worrying so much about focusing on the ones who simply have no interest or motivation to BE exceptional. And by doing so, you leave the door open for THOSE kids as well. I think we're raising a generation of mediocre human beings, by design. And nothing guarantees the collapse of a great power than a good, solid, predictably mediocre generation of people with no dreams, being encouraged to "just do the work necessary", breed and die. No Edisons, no Teslas, no Sagans, no Larrys and Sergeys, no Kamens.... just Smiths and Joneses. *chills* I don't mean to sound pessimistic though. I truly believe that many young people see right through that nonsense. I just don't really see any kind of cultural manifestation or backlash. Everything seems to be fragmented by social media and networks designed to make ALL things ephemeral. Even activism and rebellion. Doesn't mean things won't change. Much like our Doctor, I am most often enthusiastic and enamored with the actions of individual human beings, and can only assume things will get better with *time*.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:54 a.m. CST

    v'shael you really should post your predictions

    by HornOrSilk

    Unless you have inside info and it is not predictions, it is just more of the fun; you could be right, you could be wrong. But speculating is not a spoiler...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    I am still not used to using * instead of quotes.

    by gotilk

    Since using quotes here, even after MONTHS and MONTHS, is impossible without truncating your posts.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:57 a.m. CST

    the_boy_with_the_arab_strap - I second that.

    by gotilk

    Thank you, as always, all DocBackers and Merrick of course. This is a great place to be, and a great community to be a part of.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:16 a.m. CST

    My predictions for tonight episode

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    It will have the Doctor in it. We will hear a strange wheezing noise. The skeleton hand at the bottom of the lake will be touched upon. oh and i hope all goes well at school, mjg!

  • Alrighty... Since hororsilk asked... No *new* spoilers in this piece, because I don't have any inside info, and since we all know very little about what the episode is about. Never the less, based on the tiny bits of info already available and the teaser trailer, I'm throwing some predictions into the mix, to see what stirs up. I think something happens to Amy to make her sick or ill or something, and she is taken to a hospital. The hospital appears to work on a very messed up system. The patients are in a different time stream or something. (Though we later find out that that's not really the case) Sort of like how in that DS9 episode, Miles goes to a prison where they do a 20 year sentence by implanting memories into his head, so while only a day passes in the real world, for him 20 years in prison have happened. So you have an Amy who's in hospital communicating occasionally with the Doctor and Rory, through those giant magnifying glass looking devices. And it appears to her as though she's actually moving along in accelerated time. The Doctor and Rory try to find a cure for whatever ails her, and when they do, they discover that the older Amy isn't really Amy, just a copy which has been artificially aged in a computer simulation. They've been talking to the simulation, similar to the recent Jake Gyllenhall movie Source Code. The simulation is used to see the effects of the disease when it goes untreated or something. Like a humane version of the Tuskegee experiment. The real Amy has been safely unconscious and unaged the entire time. The question is, how sentient is the copy? Is it fair to just discard it at the end? Is it fair to Amy if they try to re-incorporate a life time of rather unpleasant memories, into the young Amy's body. Both horrible choices really. Rory is forced to choose, albeit with the help of the Amy's. And the Doctor surprise surprise, chooses option C. He makes the choice for them, wipes out the Amy copy, and wipes out Rory's and Amy's memory of the Amy copy, so Rory and Amy have no memory of the horrible conundrum they faced. As far as they are concerned, the hospital/treatment was bog standard. The audience, and the Doctor, are the only ones who know what he's done. Right, that's my two cents based on the tiny bits of info already out there. Hopefully I'm completely wrong, just as I was completely wrong about what I thought Neil Gaimans episode was going to be about.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:34 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Some of what you say is true, but I don't think it is a simulation, but we see two time lines involved somehow. This, I think, is something which has been in Amy (and her double) for sometime -- hence, she was pregnant and not at the same time -- the sickness and cure I think will split her into two because of the time lines contained in her. I could be wrong

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:12 a.m. CST

    @v'shael (spoilers if you haven't watched the preview clips)

    by veteran_of_mu

    Seems more like the different time stream was set up to deal with the one-day plague. Not certain how it would help to have the patient in a faster time stream - you'd think a slower one would give the doctors more time to treat them. Also doubt your plan C - erasing memories seems an awful lot like killing people. I don't think that would sit well with anyone. Since this is a tear jerker I think it's more likely Rory would create a copy of himself to keep the older Amy company, and the two copies gently die of old age, wishing their younger selves to live more significant lives. Ghost train continues ...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:31 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I think the tear-jerking is going to happen when the older Amy "turns evil."

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 8:19 a.m. CST

    vadakinx, that's an amazing story

    by Rebel Scumb

    Good for you!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 8:19 a.m. CST

    the boy with the arab strap

    by Rebel Scumb

    I forgot to mention yesterday, that since our minor misunderstanding lead to you joining in the docbacks than it is all for the best!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 8:21 a.m. CST

    and kills the younger amy...

    by emeraldboy

    the game changer will be that evil amy is the one who siding with the silence sends the younger version of herself to kill the dr. and evil amy turns out to be the the big bad.... as we will see....

  • I didn't remember that the sonic screwdriver didn't return until the Paul McGann movie. After it was destroyed in the Who story, The Visitation, the closest thing he had for it was the sonic lance Colin Baker's Doctor was using in, Attack of the Cybermen. Thank God it's back!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:08 a.m. CST

    Well, the Sonic Screwdriver went

    by HornOrSilk

    Because it was a get out of trap freebie.

  • Like the TARDIS, it's a Doctor Who staple, so, it was good to see it make a comeback.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:42 a.m. CST

    It's not as much a staple as the TARDIS

    by HornOrSilk

    Not every Doctor had it, but they all had the TARDIS. I like variety and I wouldn't mind if the sonic is lost for a few seasons again, only to come back as River's in a future time.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    MOV, mgtrasky

    by Merrick

    Thanks a ton for the concept art links. SO cool. We need an e-bookish thingie for iPad. Or a book. Books are cool.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:52 a.m. CST

    'Freebie' is a kind-of shakey excuse

    by Perigee

    for them to pull anyway; there's a rack full of them in DW - or any other show, for that matter. If The Doctor doesn't use a screwdriver, he always has his encyclopedic knowledge of everything that tends to come to him when he most needs it - ~Of course - he's a Kickapoo! And Kickapoo technology is based on monosaccharide chemical bonds... hand me those Frosted Flakes!~

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:14 a.m. CST

    And, back to my old 5th season favorite: exposition

    by Perigee

    The function of the screwdriver has been modded in the new series; it's become a tricorder to aid in story exposition, we've seen it used as a tracker, a signaller, and with modification, can serve any number of story-centric functions. Storytelling for television has changed over the years; things move faster, pacing has increased. Enabling the sonic to help move the story along gets rid of minutes of investigation and discovery of stepping-stone points to get to the meat of the story more quickly. My time with Classic Who is long in the past - I'm sure that there are several posters here that might be able to list several instances where the new-function, buzz-and-peek sonic would have clipped minutes from older episodes with it's ability to provide instant information.

  • William Hartnell's Doctor never had it, Patrick Troughton was the first and used by all until it was destroyed. I know the Doctor's greatest weapon is his brain, but, I think of the sonic screwdriver as his backup. Hey, it does have some weakness, no wood setting, remember? LOL

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:41 p.m. CST

    Where is everyone?

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm the DocBacker who waited

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    @Hotnorsilk - Still checking in and what not.

    by V'Shael

    It got up to 33 celcius today in Brussels, after a week long of 16 degree rainy weather. So I'm sitting with a beer, in the sun, making sure my wifi is still working... 23 minutes to go...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    I've been thinking the same myself Horn

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I think we must be broken. And we've been overtaken by Star Wars...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    @Hornorsilk - And of course, drunkenly mistyping...

    by V'Shael

    I'm blaming the drink.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:56 p.m. CST

    But it'll all be go in an hour :)

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    Yes, hopefully we will have more talk after the episode

    by HornOrSilk

    But sometimes, yes, conversation will be at a lull. Life does take over!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    15 minutes

    by Evilmeister

    Got the kettle on, telly warmed up. All I need is some warm cheesie crumpets and it will be just like when I was a kiddie: settling down to watch dr.who in my jimjams

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    Quite literally the very best episode of Nu Who there has ever been.......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...simply sublime. Gillan and Darvill are just........... wow. Guys, it was fucking spectacular. Emotionally heartbreaking, bittersweet. More later- I'm off to watch it again. SJW.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Absolutely astonishing.

    by BiggusDickus

    By far the best of the Smith run and the only episode since 'Girl In The Fireplace' that made me fill up. Bona fide classic.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST



    That was just AWESOME.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    episode of this year

    by tomdolan04

    My wife cried. My wife doesnt cry over Who. Moff - take note. Episodes like this are worth ten that try to tie in multi season convoluted river song/silence arc stories with atupid throwaway nudge nudge wink wink references.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    I wasnt prepared

    by kusanagiguy

    I'm in shock at how fantastic that episode was. Who would have thought doctor who do emotion on that level? and with two characters that up to that point hadn't really done anything signifigant. Best companions ever. Best Doctor Who ever Amazing

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    stupid not atupid

    by tomdolan04

    how s...illy

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Needlessly sentimental, maudlin shite.

    by buggerbugger

    40 minutes of pointlessness based upon the premise that Grandma Pond spent 36 years "in hell", but didn't want those 36 years "in hell" to be replaced with something much, much better. Y'fuckin' tit. And... **another** blank-faced monster with a catchphrase that can easily be made into a toy? Yeah, you can never have too many blank-faced monsters with catchphrases that can easily be made into toys.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Should have been longer...

    by V'Shael

    Could have watched a lot more of that. I hope there's deleted scenes on the blu ray.

  • in saying that The Girl Who Waited was astonishing. Turned a character I never had much sympathy for into someone I actually physically miss right now. I actually really just want to give Amy Pond a big hug. Right now. And yeah... I cried.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:10 p.m. CST

    That was fucking great.

    by TinSpider

    Nicely written, directed and acted out episode. The only negatives would be that Karen just doesn't convince with the action stuff - especially with a sword.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:10 p.m. CST


    by Sundaycall1

    It was up there. I mean right up there with the best stand alone stories since the relaunch. Gillian was great, darvul did not miss a beat and we're given another look at te darkness in the doctor. I loved it. Proper emotional payoff. And nu who has not had too many genuinely emotional gut wrenching moments. Not an inch of schmaltz or malkishness. It felt natural and real. A rare case of a brilliant story unfolding almost effortlessly before your eyes. If the remaining episodes can live up to that, this will be hands down the best series since, well the 70s?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST


    by BiggusDickus

    Hand your soul back, sweetheart, you don't deserve it. x

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    sentimental - yes. manipulative to a degree.

    by tomdolan04

    but when done well, i really dont care. neither does most of the audience bar the cool kids.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:28 p.m. CST

    Great stuff

    by Peter

    A vey well written, acted and directed three-hander. Not quite "classic" for me, but really, really strong stuff. I rewatched Tennant-era double-bill Human Nature/Family of Blood yesterday and the last 10 minutes actually moved me to tears. But this WAS a great episode and congratulations to all involved!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:28 p.m. CST

    Just brilliant

    by PhaseRat

    That's the kind of episode you watch and go "Why isn't all TV like this?" They crammed a complex plot, deep character moments and buckets of humour into 45 minutes. And Arthur Darvill just gets better and better. Plus aged, kick ass Amy was cool too.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:28 p.m. CST

    If this fails to move you...

    by Captain Howdy're already dead. Kudos to all concerned.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Not entirely problem free of course.

    by V'Shael

    Hard to beloved the 2nd most popular destination in several galaxies couldn't deal with the concept of alien visitors with different physiology. Little things like that. Not anything which would detract from my enjoyment of the ep.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Merrick, I have the book 'Blacklight' by Andrew Skilleter

    by Seph_J

    which features lots of artwork of the VHS cover releases of DW. It's a nice book indeed.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    I am amazed...... (spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...just amazed. Karen Gillan has silenced her detractors in my opinion. She was simply triumphant and it goes to show that she can hang with the best of them when given the right material. As she called the Doctor "Raggedy man...."- well, actually spit it with such hatred and vehemence I could palpably sense the anger and malelovence; could almost taste it..... hatred built up over 36 years of waiting, wanting them to come, surviving... ..leading you to that heartbreaking final act, through gardens, and handbots and a kick-ass Amy. Guys, who says that this isn't the point where she learned to use a sword???? Darvill was superb. His choice is one that will inevitably end with him as the loser, but one he must make. Gut wrenching to the final seconds. And Smith- playing from the back of the field is solid in his support; keeping the narrative flowing- wity (Hello, handsome man..!!) and all knowing, manipulating and ultimately doomed. This is the best episode I have ever seen in Nu Who- and I fear I shall never see the likes of it again. 3 more to go folks. SJW.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    that was great

    by theGoldbergV

    Cool concept, great performances and the make up wasn't half bad either. Sometimes aged make up can just be distracting but not here. I liked how hey really sold the idea that they were 2 seperate versions of Amy, not a clone, not a copy but 2 just as real human beings. Overall, a solid stand alone episode that developed the characters and still alluded to the ongoing plot. The only thing that I would say is you'd think the whole Melody/River/time child/whatever she is might have been mentioned by older Amy at some point. She had 36 years to think about it after all. But I guess thats more of a criticism of the ongoing story arc than this episode. In terms of quality I'd put this right up there with the best of new Who

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    tinspider - she scared the fucking shit out of me, mate!!!..

    by sam jacksons wig only negative was the cliched slo-mo fight scene, but IMHO she was convincing in her warrior role; quite different from that of the younger Amy.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    biggusdickus - agreed.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I must say the normally cold hearted me actually leaked a few. Just superb!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST

    sundaycall1 - best series since the 70's....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...each are nuanced in their own unique ways. This series has had it's detractors either due to the subject matter, the overall arc or the stand alone episodes. I personally like the darkness in it all. It is a different animal to any that have passed before it, and a welcome change to Who. As for it topping Perwee or Baker?? Well, it comes close.... ;))

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:54 p.m. CST

    phaserat - from Rory of last series......

    by sam jacksons wig Rory of now? The single greatest transformation of any character on TV, and of any on WHO. I fear that when we part with him I will be a very very sad man indeed.

  • That's when I knew all bets were off; the thing is, I want him to have all kinds of secrets from that time.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    It's also the tiny little moments of beauty that cut you up.....(spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...when Older Amy is alone with Rory, and she picks up the lipstick...hesitates...then decides not to put it on. No mess, no fuss. Just a little shake of the head that says "Silly Girl...... what are you thinking??" Gorgeous.....

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Simply marvellous

    by Evilmeister

    I never did get the Amy hate, so I'm glad to see she has put in a performance that should turn around her detractors.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Horn- work didn't take did unfortunately.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..not to worry. All over and done with now. Hope you are well my friend and enjoyed the episode!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    I have to play tonight and I'm tempted to Torrent...

    by sunspot_mike

    but I'd rather pay tomorrow for it on iTunes because this season is so good it deserves my money! Also, after our show last night, I talked about Doctor Who for like three hours. With girls! They were all in love with the show. Ummmmm... welcome to the Golden Age. My friends, we have won.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    CBTML!!! Welcome back!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Yup- it was awesome. Hits you out of left field, it is THAT good!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:05 p.m. CST


    by Sundaycall1

    I must admit I prefer my tv a bit darker and sharper than say the typical RTD fare we used to get. Its wot made Eccelsons doctor so appealing despite a couple of very silly stories. Not that I didn't like tennant, far from it. I just think the team behind Who now has a better idea as to how to balance the darker, scary and more adult aspects of the program against the typical madcap humour and clowning the series incorporates. And I really think Smith is the ideal doctor to embody that balancing act. I would agree it's hard to say now if this incarnation of who trumps them all (in truth I've only seen the vintage series in pockets), but I'm loving this series. And I do think Amy and Rory, if they stick around a little bit longer could go down as the best companions EVER?! They are companions that feel like proper characters and heroes in their own right. They accomplish things without the doctor, they challenge the doctor and sometimes exasperate him, rather than always being in awe and looking to the timelord to solve every problem. Anyway great piece of telly. May it continue!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    tomdolan04 - as I sit here and type my wife is watching and is in tears....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .....and this is a woman who is so emotionally stoic it is unbelievable. Yes!!!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Best line in Who ever.....?...

    by sam jacksons wig

    "I am going to blow time apart for you." Guys, I am a gibbering wreck here!!!! Oh, sentimental old fluff, me!!! :))

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Didn't see somthing like this coming from last week's trailer.

    by BiggusDickus

    After little George and his peg dolls, all I say from the trailer for this one was another toy robot opportunity. I love that Who can still throw us these absolute gems out of left field just when we think we know what we're going to get... And! The girl can actually act! Shame it's took us two years to see what she's really capable of! The only annoyance for me was the was she has apparently mastered that 'roll a katana over your wrist' thing a la 'Highlander'. I've been trying that for years with mine and have almost amputated my own foot on numerous occasions...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:10 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Well, life does that, too. I'm 20 mins into watching it, pausing it from time. It's been a long week on my end, too.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:11 p.m. CST

    sunspot- was there ever any doubtt that we WOULDN'T win??;))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:11 p.m. CST

    seriously sitting well with me

    by tomdolan04

    A truely good episode and this series has definitely been somewhat a mixed bag for me. Ive often commented over gillans bunny in headlights style of acting. Admittedly she was helped by a decent script but she did very well here. I think because her character had a twinge of bitterness and experience she was infinitely more interesting. A shame it had to reach its inevitable conclusion in some ways.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:11 p.m. CST

    part one of season 6

    by emeraldboy

    i really had no idea what the hell was going on. and i got so frustrated I had to leave the living room and come back. season 6 part two has me completely glued to the screen. visually arresting, compelling, interesting, less confused than season 6 part 1 and next weeks looks fan effing tastic.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:13 p.m. CST

    Horn- it is definately something that they should play with...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and a missed opportunity if they do not. 2000 years of history in his head... but correct me if I'm wrong- wasn't mos of it spent guarding the pandorica???

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Cheeky link to Love and Monsters???- very minor spoilers

    by Sundaycall1

    When Amy is first talking to the Interface about wot there is to do in the timestreams and the interface mentions Rollarcoaster Land with a ride specially imported from Alton Towers - Klum?? Did I hear that right? Klum. The home planet of Peter Kays much maligned monster. Cheeky monkeys

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:19 p.m. CST

    sam true but

    by HornOrSilk

    It is 2000 years guarding it in an alternative universe, with all kinds of things happening around him. He should have learned all kinds of things -- in the recesses of his mind. He, after all, did jobs and lived while guarding it -- hence, he became the museum guard. I am sure he probably had the museum built.. etc.. So there has got to be things in his head.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    good work that ep was

    by Johnboy40

    Matt Smith was reight...Karen Gillan nailed it. and Darvill had a dodgy beard on confidential. Oldest question in the universe, btw....who?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    .... Smith could very well go down as the greatest incarnation of the Doc ever. I am finding it difficult to think of anyone I would like to follow him, and in truth, would not wish the job on anyone. They will have such a tough fucking act to follow. I shall be very sad to say goodbye to all.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST

    biggusdickus- you have a Katana??????..

    by sam jacksons wig wife went to Japan a few years ago and tried to bring me one back after I moaned and moaned, but had it fucking confiscated at Heathrow. She was lucky she wasn't charged!!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST

    And 2000 years vs 36....

    by HornOrSilk

    Rory is no boy.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST


    by Johnboy40

    After Smith, the best thing might be to return to a more austere, older doctor. a Bill Nighy or Art Malik type. but I doubt the Beeb would let that happen

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Hints to the Doctor's salvation in this episode, too (spoiler)

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor talks about knowing one's future allows one to change it. Temporal earthquake time.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Amy's "probe"

    by HornOrSilk

    Look familiar, in part, River?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:33 p.m. CST


    by BiggusDickus

    Had mine imported from an approved martial arts retailer before the ban came down in '07. Cost me a bleedin' fortune, but worth every bean!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:35 p.m. CST

    It sounded like the villain next week is "The_Choppah" LOL

    by rosasaks

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Another wonderful episode of the Amy & Rory show ...


    Next year they need to carefully and slowly phase out the Doctor character then take this thing to the next level!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    emeraldboy - part 1/2...

    by sam jacksons wig

    Not quickly brushing aside this weeks amazing ep, next weeks is one of two I have been really looking forward to!! I love the idea of it all. It looks effectively claustrophobic, eerie and demented... my kind of TV!!! As for part 1 against part 2- agree. It didn't have me leaving the room, and I found it completely enjoying, but I am finding this section the GHOST TRAIN that Moff promised us.. and I LIKE!!!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:38 p.m. CST


    by Sundaycall1

    Ahhh. But that is the beautiful opportunity the creative team now has to give these characters a great finale when the time comes. When billie piper left, it was like 'Aw well'. When Martha jones left, it was like 'meh' to be honest. Now when Tennant left, drawn out and melodramatic it may have been, it was an explosive moment. We've heaped high praise on the emotional impact of our favourite episodes and those moments are all te more easyto find when u catch urself truely loving these characters. When Amy pond and Rory say goodbye it'd had better be in a blaze of glory an when smith passes the torch that doesnt feel like he carried for so long, time has flown by, it should be a heart breaker no matter where the Moff is taking this doctor in the end. It will and should be magnificent and soul destroying. And that sort of challenge to follow these actors will only spur the next crew on the to achieve the same heights. As forth next doctor. An unknown would be fine. As long as he's right for the character. A known I'd like to see give a slightly weathered, war weary doctor, with a twinkle on his eye? Hugh laurie?? House ends next year. 50th anniversay? I could see Hugh and Alex Kingston kicking asses across the universe.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:45 p.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    yeah, not been a particularly stellar week here. Work has caused a bit of friction between myself and my wife, even though the things that have transpired are out of our control. We both are so passionate about what we do we sometimes collide when brought into a global argument; we should know better- neither of us will win. One of my cats has been sick; along with my two children, my cats ARE my children and I love them deeply. Very very stressful time with the vet, very emotional. She is, however, on the mend now thank the maker!! As for Rory- a spin off? the adventures of Rory the Roman? Surely this is a must!!! Bang it in the slot vacated (tragically) by SJA once his tenure is up and voila!!! I hope you are okay, my friend- I sincerely do!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:45 p.m. CST

    I'm certainly thinking this sets up the season end

    by HornOrSilk

    I could be wrong, but the Doctor seems to be building to a big paradox -- which will cause the TARDIS itself to blow up in one time stream...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I'm sorry about your cat and two children being sick; don't ask the Doctor to cure them, you see what happens then. And I'm sorry about the work conflict. Marriages have conflicts, but I hope that your bond is stronger than them -- I am sure it is. As for me, well, I continue to live (as I tell people). I get through one day at a time -- some days better, some days the fatigue gets the best of me. When I'm well, I get a lot done -- sort of like a speed up then slow down kind of thing. It's weird.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:51 p.m. CST

    As for what kind of Doctor I would have next...

    by HornOrSilk

    Hello, I'm Brian Blessed.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:52 p.m. CST

    And that cut me off

    by HornOrSilk

    And so I said: ok, no not Brian Blessed. However, I would want someone almost opposite of Matt Smith's Geek-Doctor, so someone who is bulkier and louder, but with hints of Pertwee and Davison.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:53 p.m. CST

    johnboy40 -

    by sam jacksons wig

    It will take someone with some hellish acting chops to take over from Smith. An established actor would be great, but who has now gone 2 for 2, and created stars out of Tennant and Smith. As this, it is a great platform to launch a career. And to relate to the youth demograph it will be highly unlikely they will go with someone of a more "decerning" age. As long as it's not Ricky Gervais or Russel Brand I will be a happy man!! ;))

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:53 p.m. CST


    by Sundaycall1

    Scary potatoes.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:57 p.m. CST

    The choppah also appeared in..

    by HornOrSilk

    The Wicker Man. Chop Chop.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 3:59 p.m. CST

    biggusdickus - LUCKY MAN!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I have always wanted one- the missus apparently spent a wee sum on her purchase, only to berrate me after it was taken from her. I believe her exact words were "You're giving me that fucking money back!!!"

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:08 p.m. CST


    by axcel1

    In the words of Comic Book Guy, Best Emotional Episode Ever!!!!!!!!!!!! And, it must be great, if this Docback (so far) has only one negative comment. I'm glad everyone here now knows what I knew for the begining, that Rory (and Amy) are fantastic on Who.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:12 p.m. CST

    One word - amazing

    by Stegman84

    Quite simply, one of, if not the best episode of anything I have seen this year, and easily amongst the very best of NuWho since it launched back in '05. This is exactly what great sci-fi and great television is all about - fantastical ideas executed organically through the characters that we follow in truly gripping and emotionally satisfying ways, rather than having the characters as mere cyphers dancing around on the edges of said ideas, without any real emotional resonance or connections. And anyone who looks at this episode and still claims that Darvill and Gillan can't act, well... Almost hard to believe that this was written by the same guy that did the Cybermen two parter (an okay pair of episodes, but hardly special).

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:17 p.m. CST

    Terrific Episode

    by Nerfee

    I could use one of those big timey-wimey magnifiers to locate my younger self and call him an asshole.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    sundaycall1 ..

    by sam jacksons wig

    Correct- I never missed Piper, and I felt truly sorry for the Jones character being excised the way it was, but it wasn't working and wasn't blending with Tennant. I shouted a huge hip-hooray when Donna went as I fucking loathed the character so much it hurt. With these two, a simple goodbye will not be enough. They need the kind of respect that Babs and Ian got (without skipping through Londons landmarks) when they quit, along with an amazing storyline that will do them both proud (the Chase wasn't really that, although admittedly good) and keep them with us. I never thought I would miss them as much as I will when they go. A hard act to follow. As for creative- my fear is a downturn in ratings should they not get it right. Smith has no doubt planned his leaving date and I should think that they would need to start work now on his successor in order to get it JUST right. We shall, in future DocBacks, be maligning their departure, I fear.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    axcel- I'll go one better.....

    by sam jacksons wig Nu-Who episode ever!!!! Welcome back mate!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:29 p.m. CST

    If I had one tiny nitpick with the episode, it's this...

    by Stegman84

    When faced with a green button and a red button, who the hell in their right mind chooses to push the red button first? Seriously. I mean the first thing that shot into my head at the time was 'why would you press the red button?' Honestly I think the production design dropped the ball on that a bit, and it should have been two colours without traditional associations attached to them, so the buttons should have been, say, blue and yellow or something. I told you it was a tiny nitpick. Still, marvelous episode all the same.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    nerfee_- shit on that!!! If I went back and saw my younger self...

    by sam jacksons wig

    .. he would kick my fucking ass for all the weight he has put on!!!!

  • I agree with you 100%!! And, maybe, almost everyone?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:50 p.m. CST

    Sam thanks; as for the episode, anyone else think

    by HornOrSilk

    The older Amy is still out there?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Future amy

    by emeraldboy

    says I will tear apart the universe for you to rory. this creates a paradox by the dr blowing up the tardis in a time stream. and then what happens is anyone's guess.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Sam, my younger self would have the same complaint.

    by Nerfee

    And he would think me terribly dull for not going hedonistic on a saturday night, but instead watching a QI marathon on the BBC. Oddly enough, QI has a big magnifier of its own.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:53 p.m. CST

    If I could talk to my younger self

    by HornOrSilk

    I would say, "don't buy video games, buy microsoft stock."

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:53 p.m. CST

    axcel- ALMOST everyone!!! .....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....but then again, you can't please everyone can you, no matter how good something is!!! And this was just amazing. Whatever minor faults it may have I will certainly (and have) overlook as the substance, the content, the skill, the emotion, the enjoyment, the drama, the humour, the context, the professionalism, the dedication, the craft... EVERYTHING!!!!.... ...has moved me like no other episode of Who has ever done!!!! I am truly overwhelmed that I have been privileged to witness something as close to perfection in a series I absolutely adore. For me, it doesn't get any better than this, and will take a WHOPPING episode to dethrone it.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Next Doctor

    by Majereuk

    I have no idea how long it'll be before we see a new Doc, but I strongly suspect they'll go for a considerably older actor. For one thing, though I admit it seems her story will end this series, River mentioned how much older the Doctor she new was in the Library episode when we met her. More importantly, the Doctor can't get much younger without needing a nappy (diaper for you Yanks) and Smith and Tennant have pretty much cornered the young, manic Doctor market. I suspect the next Doc will be a lot older, grumpier, and will be tricky to like at first. Vets like Bill Nighy or Dennis Waterman might work, but an unknown is likely. He may well be black, but I don't expect the much mooted regeneration sex-change any time soon.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:57 p.m. CST

    This story really is arc-centric though

    by HornOrSilk

    It is a kind of stand-alone which still appears to be highly connected to the arc as a whole. It's a good way to do both as once. This episode is a microcosm of what is happening to the Doctor. Also, I would have called this one, "Rory's Choice."

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST

    majereuk age and the Doctor

    by HornOrSilk

    I think River saw true age vs apparent age...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    _nerfee_ - you are ALSO watching QI???

    by sam jacksons wig

    What a cracking show that is!!! Great to see behind the scenes, and love Stephen Fry!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Majereuk, if Dennis Waterman were cast...

    by Nerfee

    ...He would probably want to sing the theme tune.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Future Doctor

    by HornOrSilk

    If I were being tricky, and sneaky, I would hire two people to be the future Doctor at the same time. Have all the attention on one, and have him be the Doctor for 1/2 of a story before regenerating. Have it as a big, big surprise. If they were to do that, who would be the best publicity person to do this with?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:15 p.m. CST

    horn- interesting title choice....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .....however, I will go with the one we have. As much as Rory is stupendously good here, this is Amys episode and is well deserving of the title. She waited and she changed. I loved that dynamic and Gillan just ate up every second of screen time. So much so, I want to travel with older Amy. I feel I will miss her like a pain. On a side note, where Darvill went to summon up all of that emotion for the final scene.. I don't want to know! Just beautiful.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:16 p.m. CST

    Sam yes, it is Amy's episode

    by HornOrSilk

    But it is also in many ways parallel to "Amy's Choice," if you think about it. And I feel his choice is going to be important in the future.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    My Word

    by Kevin Bolinger

    This ep was fan-friggin-tastic! My jaw dropped at several parts, and that end...all I could do was stare and blink... Very subtle hint with the Doctor saying if you know your fate you can change it...subtle as a frying pan to the head lol A far more satisfying experience then last nights Torchwood :P

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:36 p.m. CST

    watchmen shoulda used the bbc makeup artists

    by john

    very good job aging amy btw, why are two amys a paradox that the tardis cant deal with...but no prob dealing with multiple doctors?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Horn- yeah, I got the connotation...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....but I still think the title of this sums up the overall beauty of what was on offer. I adore Gillan in this, she was magical and well deserving of the title. Rory will no doubt have his day in the sun regarding an ep title, and so he should!! And yes, his choice will no doubt have further ramifications. I feel I want to travel further with these guys thanks to this episode. Not ready to give up on them just yet.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:38 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    The second Amy could not exist if the first Amy left -- the second Amy did something different from her own time line, making it she wouldn't exist. The paradox is having someone who time erased remain...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:39 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    Agreed, they have always been great at aging makeup...the 10th Doctor in The Sound of Drums/ Last of the Time Lords still stands out to me as the best aging makeup ever done, beats the crap out of Hollywood, they could definitely learn a few things from the BBC!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:41 p.m. CST

    Sam, yes I hope he has a good title

    by HornOrSilk

    And I do think Rory keeps showing us how much stronger he is than Amy... Rory waited 2000 years, not just 36. Amy, of course, has her own strengths, and is capable of coming to the right conclusion in the end (as we see), but for Rory it seems more natural. Still, I can't but believe older Amy still lives and is recruited by the Silence now.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:50 p.m. CST

    restyles - horn already explained...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..and beat me to it!! Curses!!!!!! ;))

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:50 p.m. CST

    DocBackers- we have a mortal enemy, and it's name is Star Wars!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Let's see if we can take the fucker!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    Anakin Skywalker, the Master is Your Father

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:58 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:58 p.m. CST

    re older amy...

    by emeraldboy

    I think that is what happens...that is part of the trap. we dont see and dont know who the impossible astronaut is people think its river song but i am not so sure about that. older amy hates the dr. older amy is the big bad. she is tough battle hardened and hates the dr. at some point.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:59 p.m. CST

    Lets try this again.... Horn

    by Kevin Bolinger

    "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats not true, thats highly unlikely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 5:59 p.m. CST

    btw -- a possible plot hole as relating back to "THE FLESH"

    by TheSeeker7

    This is something that only occurred to me recently when sort of randomly thinking back on it, you guys tell me if I'm onto something. The biggest pre-River Song surprise reveal of season 6 was of course the realization that the Amy we'd been seeing had for a good long while been merely a "ganger", the real one held captive off in a pregnancy ward, and it was a shock even to this fake Amy herself when the doctor liquified her (or whatever it was). But here's the thing -- didn't the 2-parter back when we were first introduced to the concept of the gangers establish the fact that a ganger copy is SELF AWARE? It absolutely knows that it's merely a copy of the original human being? So, why then wouldn't that Amy have been?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6 p.m. CST

    Sam: and in a different Time Line, the Doctor takes out the Jedi

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Disneyland, Klom!

    by Seph_J

    Who'd go there?! I also like the Emperor Daleks New Clothes bedtime story from last week. They are throwing lots of references in these days aren't they!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:01 p.m. CST

    oh and on another note, speaking of "Q.I."

    by TheSeeker7

    Being an American I certainly haven't seen them all, but have caught at least a dozen+ or so in the last year or two, but the brand new most recent one had to be one of the very funniest I've ever had the pleasure to view. Fry's joke about how do they separate the men from the boys in the Navy, "with a crowbar", you should've seen how loudly I busted out laughing :D

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:02 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    No, not all gangers are self-aware, many are just avatars.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST

    The Emperor Dalek's New Clothes

    by HornOrSilk

    It's a story about Davros, right?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I'm still thinking older Amy might be the one who creates the Silence..

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:05 p.m. CST

    And speaking of Star Wars, the Special Special Edition Revealed

    by HornOrSilk Ok. That was a tangent, but worth it for this one post.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:31 p.m. CST

    Sam Jacksons Wig - Rory

    by PhaseRat

    In my opinion they have taken Rory on the best journey of any companion ever. His emotional arc and character growth was hidden a lot last year, but damn, I would say he's now up there in the top 3 companions of all time. He may actually be my favourite non-Doctor character in Doctor Who ever now. It's wonderful that not only do they give him the emotional meat to chew on, but that he (Darvill) is just so damn good at making you feel all of these choices Rory has to make.

  • Sam, I think we both know it was perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:46 p.m. CST


    by Smashing

    Amazing episode, beautiful, music was on top form and Karen and Arthur where on top form. I think and spoilers... Old Amy lived and will become Madame Kovarin, she will raise her child after all and now has very good reasons for wanting The Doc dead. Great stuff.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:51 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    you just may be onto something there! It wouldnt take too much to push her that way...Ok everyone, come up with hidden meaning of Kovarian

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:54 p.m. CST

    Amy isn't Kovarian

    by HornOrSilk

    But I still think it is likely Kovarian is another of Amy's children...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 6:54 p.m. CST

    but how could that old Amy then be... (spoilers)

    by TheSeeker7

    possibly turn into eye patch lady, like you guys are speculating? Didn't the plot of this establish that once they saved the original young Amy, the old Amy automatically never existed? or am I forgetting something already.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    We know she shouldn't exist; however, she does; time lines are starting to break apart... I am thinking this is going to end up explaining the destruction of the TARDIS in 5...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:02 p.m. CST

    theseeker7 part 2

    by HornOrSilk

    Just think about how the Doctor is doing this to himself, as well; we have been told the Doctor knows the future so he is going to change it... he is creating paradoxes which connect with Amy's paradox...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:08 p.m. CST

    I have a problem.

    by vadakinX

    You know how fans (especially younger female fans) get massive crushes on their idols, be they pop stars or movie stars? Well I'm a 27 year old man who hates all that "OMG" nonsense. But I have a problem. I am officially in love with Karen Gillan. It is not a juvenile fantasy. I don't drool over pictures of her (ok maybe a little). Nor is it a stalkerish obsession. I don't write fan mail proclaiming my undying love. I don't send weird things to her or stand outside her house. I am simply in love with her. I am also not in love with the character Amy Pond, who is clearly just that, a character, written by writers and performed by Gillan. And it's all The Moff's fault. It's his fault for casting her in Doctor Who. I may never have known she existed if he hadn't and I could have gone out and found a girl who I could have fallen in love with and grown old with and I'd have been perfectly happy. But no! Moffat had to take over Doctor Who. He had to cast her. He has ruined my life by ensuring a painful heartbreak caused by the reality of her being an actor on a TV show in a different country from where I am. Thus I am forced to hate Moffat. But not in a loathsome way. Not in an angry way. I just hate him for exposing me to her. And at the same time I love him for exposing me to her. Yes, I have a problem. I am in love with The Moff. Seriously, Karen Gillan - WOW! Great episode, great performances from all three. And yes I am in love with Gillan and if the rest of you aren't then shame on you.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:11 p.m. CST

    I also think the Tardis destruction was just sealed.

    by Smashing

    The Doc has been wrong a lot recently and he likely was about Amy dying if gifted, a double blow again as if she lived and could have left she needn't have stayed lost for so long. Plus that building had multiple time streams over lapping in wibbily ways.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:11 p.m. CST


    by Smashing

    Also if she is Kovarian it means she gets to raise her snatched child and it just meant she had to... wait, a theme with her life.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:19 p.m. CST

    I always liked Rory.

    by vadakinX

    I never understood why people didn't like the character in the beginning. To me it was obvious what Moffat was trying to do. I think the way Rory was in the beginning was absolutely deliberate because it wasn't about us liking the character it was about us learning why Amy loves Rory. Moffat took us on a journey with the Rory character. It began with how the world sees him and led to how Amy sees him and that's the whole point. Even as she was waiting for The Doctor all those years since she was a child, Rory was the one who was always there. The Doctor was a fantasy, a dream of adventures, of a life beyond the mundane. But Rory was a constant. Rory was the man who was always there, the man who, sure he was a little timid but he loved her. It was important to see Rory in the beginning as a bit of a fool, maybe even slightly annoying with his jealousy and all that because that was all on the surface. That's what everyone saw. Amy saw something deeper and gradually we've come to see that as well. I just love that Doctor Who is a proper love story right now. I love that it's not really about The Doctor. With Rose, she was in love with The Doctor and they ended up in a place where she had at least a part of him that she could hold on to. But with Amy and Rory it's all about them. The Doctor takes them on adventures through time and space but the heart of the Moffat run is in Amy and Rory. From a plot point of view The Doctor and River may be seen as the pivotal characters but it's Amy and Rory that makes it all mean something, that makes it worthwhile.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:20 p.m. CST

    Smashing -the Doctor is smart

    by HornOrSilk

    I think he is creating his own trap in this episode to fix the trap he sees happening to himself in the future --- think of Curse of the Fatal Death.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST

    I read somewhere, may have been here

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    that given kovarian is Indonesian for covariance, and given covariance is a statistical measure of how two variables change with one another, then we're either witnessing the start of the greatest companion betrayal in history, or we're being fed the most delicious red herring. Given that Amy is due to be back next year and i can't imagine we'll get anything as cheap as a reset timeline, I'm inclined to agree with hornor on this one, though I'd rather like to be wrong...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:24 p.m. CST


    by DoctorTom

    I didn't think The Doctor's Wife was going to have any serious competition for winning a Hugo award next year. I'm very pleased to have been proven wrong. This story was perfect. Sure, there might be a few techinical niggles like had been mentioned, but I didn't notice them at all while watching it, and it doesn't bother me after either. What a wonderful episode. We'll have to see if Sir the Moff can top this in 3 weeks.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:24 p.m. CST

    Wait did I see that right on IMDB????????????

    by Kevin Bolinger

    SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see that Fenric is in The Wedding of River Song, bit of a call back there...huh...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:28 p.m. CST

    Sam, sorry to hear about the cat

    by DoctorTom

    mine's like a son to me; we've been growing old together for a long, long time. I know how they become a part of your family. I hope yours gets better soon. <br> Actually, I was amused by my cat today - when I started watching the Girl Who Waited he got up in my lap, and when the theme was going he started watching the show on the screen. Eventually he looked away, but he started watching again when Amy was first being menaced by the handbots. Eventually he decided he didn't want to be found actually enjoying the show, so he got down - and a few minutes later, when I got a phone call, he started meowing at me because I wasn't paying attention to him.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:30 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Two things... Wasn't there a chess set in a recent episode? I think there was, and I thought "Fenric" after that. But... I think it is some fan putting it in there. Nonetheless, I've thought a Fenric connection (since he loves to play with time) is a very very very slight possibility...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:35 p.m. CST

    Good points, horn...

    by DoctorTom

    I noticed the bit about being able to change time if you know about it beforehand - definitely setting things up for the finale. <br> And, Rory was very good this episode. There's good points about how Rory was after 2000 years compared to Amy after 36. Of course, some of that is also evident in how Amy reacted with her 'shut up' stuff after the Doctor died in TIA while Rory had to tell her 'we have to do this for him, it's what he wanted'. Amy is actually selfish when you get down to it, and Rory is a much better person than that. <br> I did enjoy the part tonight where he got upset at the Doctor trying to make Rory just like him.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:37 p.m. CST

    Doctortiom about Amy

    by HornOrSilk

    She is selfish, but to a point. She needs to be encouraged to do what is right, but she will do it in the end.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:40 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    They have Mark Gatiss listed as playing Fenric, so take it for whatever thats worth, besides, we will know one way or another in 3

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:41 p.m. CST

    Smashing, you might just be right about Amy being Kovarian

    by DoctorTom

    and, as was pointed out, it might actually be Amy/Kovarian in the spacesuit (something I hadn't considered before tonight). <br> We are only making the assumption that the drugs were going to kill Amy, or that she would get rewritten out of existence. Yet, Amy didn't disappear in The Big Bang when Amelia was written out of time. They were anomalies, and by bringing the younger and older Amy together like they did there might have been just enough of time changing there to make her different enough to be able to still be there even when younger Amy's future history changed. So, if she didn't get written out of time and the drugs didn't kill her, she could have survived and escaped. <br> She had already been mad at the Doctor (the comments about wanting to kill him mirror Kovarian's wanting to turn Melody into a weapon to kill him). She has picked up enough knowledge to make a sonic screwdriver and has seems to have learned some temporal engineering from the interface. She could get out and set up the whole thing with the Silence to get back at the Doctor, and she would know that her daughter had already been set up as a weapon, and she knows when the Doctor is supposed to die. All she would have to do is engineer things to make them happen the way they are supposed to. I'd agree that she might be behind the Silence and won't be surprised if she is Kovarian.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:42 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, we will know soon.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    I'm not sure I believe the IDMB

    by DoctorTom

    I'd sooner believe that Gatiss is playing Lazarus again. What I really suspect is that Gatiss is back playing Danny Boy for the episode, flying around in his space faring Spitfire equipped with Dalek weaponry.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 7:46 p.m. CST

    If the IMDB is right

    by HornOrSilk

    IF and it is a big IF... Fenric has his wolf in Old Amy.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 8:50 p.m. CST

    @TheSeeker7 - Amys ganger not being self aware.

    by V'Shael

    The gangers on the island only became self aware when the link with the drivers was broken by the solar storm. But Amy was a much more advanced model. Her link operated through the TARDIS, through time and space, outside the universe and in a bubble universe... it was a SOLID link. It wasn't going to be broken by anything so trivial as a solar storm. With enough research, when the Doctor finally did work out how to sever the link, instant gloop. Thus, no self-aware ganger Amy.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 8:50 p.m. CST


    by batmancw

    Loved this episode

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:01 p.m. CST

    Did BBCA clip something off at the very end?

    by The Transformed Man

    It seemed kind of abrupt. GREAT episode anyway!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:07 p.m. CST

    Rory may have waited 2000 years...

    by V'Shael

    but he wasn't in solitary isolation. Cut Amy some slack people.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:08 p.m. CST

    Future Amy looked fantastic.

    by The Transformed Man

    And was very well played by Gillan.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:10 p.m. CST

    IMDB is like wikipedia.

    by V'Shael

    Any old cunt with an equity card can edit it. (Call back to previous talkback) I seem to recall Fenric was listed for a couple of episodes in Season 5 and 6 already. Invariably wrong, of course.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:11 p.m. CST

    The abrupt ending - "Where is she?" BOOM - NEXT TIME

    by V'Shael

    If that's what you saw, then that's what we saw in the UK.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:21 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    Thanks. That's what I saw. It felt like an edit, but I guess it wasn't.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST


    by glenn_the_frog

    Girl Who Waited. That was a hell of an episode. I don't know what else can be said.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:38 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    That abrupt end will have consequences, mark y word...

  • Very solid episode, and a real departure visually! Can't wait until next week! that's my most anticipated episode of the year!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:41 p.m. CST

    v'shael, re: Ganger Amy, I think we've discussed this before but...

    by Rebel Scumb

    I don't agree about the other ganger Amy not being self aware. The episodes went to a lot of trouble to establish that all of the gangers had been self aware, even before the storm. The storm only gave them the ability to break free and rebel. But much was made of the 'the eyes screaming 'why?'' That was the whole dilemma, and why at the end they had to go to the corporation and stop the flesh abuse, because they were all alive and aware. That's why the ending of that episode and the Amy reveal never sat right with me, because the Doctor just coldly murdered Ganger-Amy, which is very out of character for him, and contrary to the entire 2 hour story we just sat through.

  • 'old' amy is supposed to be what... 56-57, if anything that's older than the actress who plays Korvarian

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:47 p.m. CST

    re: Rory

    by Rebel Scumb

    I've always liked Rory, I just thought that Karen Gillan and he had zero chemistry together in the early episodes of series 5, and he being a pretty average schmoe and her a total knockout it just made their relationship a bit hard to buy at first. But I think all that has been fixed and then some. The two have developed a great energy together and this season especially has really sold me not only currently, but retroactively back into the 11th hour on their relationship.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:47 p.m. CST


    by Nickytea

    This episode was fantastic. In fact, this entire series has been brilliant. Inspiring. Any chance of a book publishing the screenplays of series five or six, as they did for the previous eras of the show? As a screenwriter, I'd love to read the textual craft behind these stories.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:48 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    Could be plastic surgery, or some other futuristic face changing thingy lol

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:50 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Sorry to hear about that Sam. I've got 3 myself, the oldest of which is an 18 year old siamese. It's weird for me to think that I've had her over half my life, pretty much been the only constant. She's in remarkable health for her age, but I try to remain realistic in that she's already older than most cats ever get. Just do my best to spoil her whenever possible. They are absolutely wonderful creatures. Speaking of which, it would be cool to revisit the cat people from 'new earth'/'gridlock' at some point, I thought the idea of animals of our present day eventually being evolved into advanced humaniod creatures in the distant future was a pretty cool idea. Plus who doesn't wish their cat could speak English!?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:51 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by TheSeeker7

    Okay yea see because I remember the opening to that part 1 episode, you had the people working with the episode, and when the one guy started to melt into it and didn't seem to have a care in the world about it, of course we as the viewer seeing this for the first time are supposed to be like WTF? He's dying and he's not freaking out about it? Then we learn soon after that was merely a ganger dying, and they clearly knew they were gangers thus weren't really phased by it, it was simply all part of the job. But, I guess the solar storm had already started from the first minute of screen time in the part 1 episode, after all that was the whole point of the Doctor's visit there, or at least what we were led to believe at the time. He was going to help them because he got word they were getting hit by the storm.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:55 p.m. CST

    majuerk, re: older doctor next

    by Rebel Scumb

    The thing is, I think that so much of the fanbase at this point is girls age 15-25 who all like to swoon over the doctors that as much as I like the variety, I just don't see them casting any one over 35 again. Not that Dr Who is just a girl show, but as scifi goes its had much bigger mainstream penetration with a demographic that normally ignores it. I know tons of girls with zero interest in scifi or any geek stuff, but are rabid Dr. who fans. I have no idea how this some how happened, but it did, and I think the producers have to keep that in mind. The reality is that IS a big part of the fandom for the series now.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:55 p.m. CST

    you guys regular viewers of DW Confidential as well?

    by TheSeeker7

    I've been keeping up with it every single episode here in series 6, and oh man, Karen Gillan... she apparently is only at all comfortable on camera if she's playing a character. If she's got to plainly be herself as in these behind the scenes docs, she is clearly so uncomfortable in front of the lens being herself, she has a ridiculous amount of nervous, awkward energy (& not in a necessarily good way).<br> <br> Well, it's either that, or me thinks Arthur Darvill in fact doesn't really like her personally that much. lol

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:58 p.m. CST

    theseeker7 re: gangers

    by Rebel Scumb

    Well my understanding of it (and I could be way off) is that the gangers are being controlled by the 'real' version of the person, like... well like an avatar in avatar. But the flesh itself is alive and conscious of the fact that this is happening and can feel the pain that the controller is not subjected to. And don't forget that there was that pile of defective rejected gangers they found in the corridor who were all living in agony. Those were all pre-storm as well, unless I'm remembering incorrectly.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 9:59 p.m. CST

    The doctors new coat. Did he have it on in 'curse of the black spot'?

    by Rebel Scumb

    I was just thinking about how the episode orders for 6x03 and 6x09 got swapped, so did the Doctor have his new coat on in Curse of the black spot? I haven't seen that one since it aired.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:08 p.m. CST

    I went to a comic convention today wearing a Peter Davison DW t-shirt

    by The Transformed Man

    And three teenage girls squeeed at it as they walked by. Damn, the world's changed. Nobody knew what I was going on about when I was a kid.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:16 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    I know what you mean! I am a heavy set guy, most females dont even give me a second glance, however, I dressed as a fat 11th Doctor at Wizard World Philly this year, and all sorts of hot geek girls were stopping me to get a pic with, very odd indeed :)

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:18 p.m. CST


    by TheSeeker7

    I made a very lovely discovery about DWC a few months ago now, when I was first catching up with the series over a year ago now (I didn't start watching the 2005 reboot at all until around late spring 2010, a friend finally got me into it) I'd always hear that voiceover at the very end of an episode staying "and stick around next for even more DW with DWConfidential" and I suppose I just took it for granted that it'd be like this little 5-7minute featurette on the behind the scenes of that newest episode, ya know like one of the weaker bonus features you find on a movie's DVD, the EPK version of a making of documentary.<br> <br> I was shocked when I finally later started looking into it and discovered that each DWC episode was just as long as the original DW show itself, a full on, immersive 45min-ish behind the scenes show, on a 1:1 ratio with the series. I was pleasantly blown away.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:44 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    Yes, so weird. One of the girls yelled "THE FIFTH DOCTOR!!!".

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 10:53 p.m. CST

    at said comic convention

    by The Transformed Man

    I bought a copy of Kate Beaton's new HARK! A VAGRANT book. She was doing a signing, and given that she did a comic strip about her impressions of Doctor Who without having ever watched it (seen here: ), I asked her to draw a Doctor Who picture in the book, and she did. It's adorable.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:01 p.m. CST

    Time for the repeat!

    by The Transformed Man

    Here we go again!

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:13 p.m. CST

    a note on the comic strip link I provided above

    by The Transformed Man

    The comments on that post are kind of brutal. I stress that the whole joke of the strip is the fact that she has never watched the show and is guessing what it is like. Of course, the folks on our little playground are much nicer than some of those commenters.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:20 p.m. CST

    The evaporation of alternate timelines

    by Dreamfasting

    The Doctor has had more than a few alternate timelines evaporate on him over the years - it's just that the "right to exist" of these timelines is not normally examined. It's interesting to think that the Doctor doesn't want to know much in advance about the places he visits precisely *because* he doesn't want to think about the lives rewritten by his presence and meddling. There seem to be an awful lot of comments in episodes in the last two seasons about timelines being a little messed up (not to mention the Pandorica). Is the endless bitter war about something that will happen in the future or something rewritten in the past?

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:25 p.m. CST

    Cannot believe I didn't see it early this week.

    by gotilk

    ACK! K... leaving to watch now... brb.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:32 p.m. CST

    The Garden

    by Kevin Bolinger

    in this ep was very Lewis Carroll...

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:38 p.m. CST

    Xena, Warrior Redhead... no it wasn't.

    by Perigee

    I now sincerely and wholeheartedly apologize and rescind what I said on the strength of the trailer. That was absolutely magnificent. My compliments to Tom MacRae for a transcendent DW story that took an incredible amount of risk, and for the Usual Suspects for having the guts to run with it. Bravo, Karen, and, as almost always anymore, Arthur. I am awe-struck. And, most amazingly, this was an inexpensive episode. 90% standing sets, white walls, and cheap adversaries. Hardly any CGI. THIS is what a Solid story can carry. I could write five books of sonnets to the entire production company that produces gems like this. But praising obvious brilliance like this seems too obvious; it's inherent worth overspeaks any words of admiration I could give it. Like that one moment of love, when all you want is for this thing to last forever. Don't leave me. Never go away. I don't want to wake up and find it all changed, all gone... And in that very moment, you know it has to end. Stasis never happens. Things change. Amy and Rory will leave, Matt Smith will leave, Steven Moffat will leave. And I will be brokenhearted at every departure.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:58 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    Beautifully said. I dread the day when Matt hangs up his coat for good. And Moffat. While I'd love to see his Doctor interact with another companion, I love the TARDIS' current group. This is an incredible time for Doctor Who, and I wish I could travel back ten years and tell myself to get ready for it. I never would've believed it.

  • Sept. 10, 2011, 11:59 p.m. CST

    Man, the end of this episode is going to come back to bite the Doctor.

    by The Transformed Man

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 12:12 a.m. CST

    He did what he had to do.

    by Perigee

    Which is one of the really incredible things about this episode. He had to make an incredibly hard choice, and he absolutely feels the weight of it. But there was no agonizing about it, no hand-wringing, no monologue of sorrow and anguish... he just did it. The pain and onus of it was so understated... You NEVER get that on TV. There always has to be some long, drawn-out scene of guilt and soul-searching, some manufactured drama. And in this, it occurred almost entirely in the background, a huge, monumental betrayal that had to be made, and... Just Wow. Like I said, a lot of risks here, a lot of convention just tossed aside for an amazing angle on an incredible story. I can't say enough about it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 12:26 a.m. CST

    I give it a "C"

    by cerberus

    I actually made it through the entire episode. Didn't buy Amy becoming that resourceful. Didn't buy the whole "can't have two of Amy" bit. Didn't feel bad when old Amy died, because I saw the ending coming a mile away. This episode looked great. The best looking one yet. It was almost like the surroundings were striving for a better story than the one we got.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:17 a.m. CST

    @Rebel scumb - we might have discussed it before.

    by V'Shael

    And I still maintain that if ganger Amy had been built with 22nd century goo, then you'd have a point. But she clearly wasn't. That was the flesh in the very earliest days, according to the doc. In it's most primitive form. Amy was a much more advanced model. One can only assume with the kinks ironed out.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:27 a.m. CST

    @Rebel_Scumb - The pile of gangers

    by V'Shael

    *Those were all pre-storm as well, unless I'm remembering incorrectly.* You are. We saw them post storm. No indication that they were alive or self aware before that. And to be honest, the show wasn't entirely clear that psycho Jennifer hadn't just created them to show how horrible the humans were to Rory. Much like how she created another version of herself to kill in front of Rory, so she could pretend to be the human Jennifer.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:27 a.m. CST

    The person you fall in love with

    by History101

    The explanation of how someone with beauty can fade when you get to know them and simple can become " the one" is just great writing.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:29 a.m. CST

    Aborted timelines...

    by V'Shael

    For anyone who read the New Adventures, the Doctor faced a similar dilemma on a much larger scale in Blood Heat. And the 7th Doctor was a cynical manipulator at the best of times. But he took the time in the novel, which you can't in the show, to really explain why he did what he did.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:02 a.m. CST

    The Episode That Waited (spoilery)

    by gotilk

    TO BLOW ME AWAY! That was magnificent. From the look of it, which was top notch, the performances, the writing, even the music seemed to be taken up a notch from previous episodes. Did anyone else notice the music working better than usual?? The white sets were gorgeous, made me think back to Kubrick (especially angles and lensing choices) and early Lucas/THX1138. The *little moments* someone else was mentioning, like the lipstick moment.... just crushing but yet still subtle. Amy and Rory!! My gahd... what performances!! Took the characters to a whole new level. I hope they know what they did right... and are proud. But the material was THERE... so I guess that makes performances easier on some level. Other great moments for me: The Doctor's slightly inappropriate delight over older Amy, in hindsight especially. Since he knew a choice would have to be made. I absolutely MUST talk my friend, who can do such things, into making a figure of "RoryBot" with the missing forearms and the drawn-on face. Maybe even holding a pair of glasses. (tiny quibble.... what did RoryBot pick up the glasses WITH... dangling wires? meh.. who cares?) The preview of this episode mad me assume this was a BIG episode with a pretty good chunk of a budget. But really, it looked like they used existing buildings, maybe a little green screen, and some (?) bots? No-one can stretch an FX budget and make something look THAT good like THE MILL can. HUGE KUDOS for some of the sublime work in this episode. Especially the garden, some of those shots with the camera moving and the garden in the background still..... fantastic. Many will probably just not notice them, because they are seamless and subtle. But the best part of the episode was the emotional WHOOMPH!!! Holy crap. Was not expecting that at ALL. I'm watching bits of it again while I write this, and I think I'll see it another time in full, paying full attention, before I head off to bed. Just amazing. PLEASE keep up this quality for the remainder. I LOVED it and this will be one of the episodes people talk about years later as a high point. Lovely. Perfect. Shutting up now.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:07 a.m. CST

    phaserat- the character has certainly grown up.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...from being the geeky nurse quietly relegated to the corner of the room, to a full on fully-fleshed (pun intended!!) and realised character who now has no qualms in taking on the Doctor... .."Then I DON'T want to travel with you!!!!!!".. he systematically shows them wonders but ruins their lives a piece at a time. Magic!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:09 a.m. CST

    Axcel- okay!!! It WAS perfect!!! :))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:10 a.m. CST


    by gotilk

    And I also found that moment to be VERY moving and beautiful. I *GET* that feeling. And as the years go on, I find myself less and less drawn to the external qualities. Although I have seen some very nice *external qualities*. Of all shapes and sizes.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:11 a.m. CST


    by gotilk

    I just need to concentrate on not sabotaging myself when it comes to such things.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:14 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by gotilk

    *this isn't fair.... you're turning me into you...* Ouch. That one must have hurt a little.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:15 a.m. CST

    Darhdevious/horn/smashing.... (spoilers within guys!!)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Korvarian is unlikely to be Amy, as the character meets her demise at Amys hand in a redundant timeline, and Amy is filled with regret. That gets me thinking that now it is NOT young Amy that manages to polish her off, but older Amy, who accepted her fate. As for Korvarian being another of Amys children, why not Rivers kid? River had the stomach cramps along with Amy in DOTM which have never been explained. What if River is also a ganger at that time? Korvarian could be bringing herself into the world......

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:16 a.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Just noticed something. It appears that you used quotes above without truncating your post. Was it because you "bracketed" them with ... (dotdotdot)?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:26 a.m. CST

    doctom- thank you......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I have two of them, litter sisters and have had them from 4 weeks old (or there abouts). When something is wrong with the other, they tend to miaow high pitched for a loooooong time. But she is on the mend, thank god! Yours sounds like a lovely little perisher :)) SJW.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:30 a.m. CST

    Horn/Doctom- Amy...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...hotheaded, most certainly- to quote the great Barry Fitzgerald "OOOHHHHHH, that redhead of hers is NO lie!!!" Selfish, or just wanting to be the center of attention after all of those years waiting?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:37 a.m. CST

    hey everyone, checkin' in late

    by Hideo Kojima

    really.. REALLY enjoyed this episode and it may have saved this season for me... that's all I'm going to say as I'm sure everything else has been said..

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:37 a.m. CST

    re: The Doctor and Wine

    by Hideo Kojima

    don't know if this has been pointed out but in The Lodger he also spat out his wine.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:38 a.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    As you already are aware (or Horn is) I bowed out of Who before Fenric aired (Ace killed it for me...and then I find that she is a wolf of Fenric!) and as yet I have to catch up on it, so I am not able to state any facts about the character at all. However, a villain from a series berrated by fans and unloved by the BEEB, with one of the least popular Doctors (by TV standards)? Sorry, but IMHO I can't even see that being remotely possible. More likely it's some Norse deity we've never heard of and are yet to encounter, maybe based on the Fenric character.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:40 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb, re: the lord's prayer at your school

    by Hideo Kojima

    what in the what? I'm going to assume you grew up somewhere in the south and/or went to a catholic school... I grew up in Minnesota and we never had anything like that EVER. We would say the pledge of allegiance, but never invoke any sort of religion or prayer.. again it sounds like a southern thing, I really don't think that would fly in the north... please correct me if I'm wrong..

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:40 a.m. CST

    thetransformedman - no.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I don't think anything was clipped at the end of the ep, which left us pondering on the Docs intentions and how things will be after the fallout, but it sure looked as if something was taken from the end of the NEXT TIME trailer. That DID end abruptly!!! Hope you are well, mate!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:46 a.m. CST

    rebel- with you about next weeks episode!!!...

    by sam jacksons wig's been sitting there in my top two for a while now, and ever since I saw that clip of the guy talking over the tannoy and the minotaur stalking the hallways I have been psyched to the max!!! Just my level of TV strangeness!! I only hope it lives up to my hype, especially as I have just watched the very best episode of Who I think I have ever seen!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:50 a.m. CST

    rebel- thanks for the note about the cats....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...mine are both siamese chocolate torti-points, and litter sisters. Buggers, the two of them, but I love them dearly! My wife has remarked that i am the only male figure in a house filled with females (wife, 2 daughters, 2 female cats..).. and I wonder why what's left of my hair is peppered with grey?????

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:52 a.m. CST

    that episode encapsulated many things I enjoy about both new and old DW

    by Jawsh Murdock

    The first 15min's or so reminded me of some of both Doctors 2 & 4's classic episodes like Mind Robber & Ark in Space. Those are two of my favorite Doctors so I was really enjoying that element of this episode. As mentioned before, Amy & Rory were both fantastic but I was also impressed by the amount of gravatas that Matt was able to convey in his facial expressions. The look he gives Rory at the end was powerful and emotionally stirring. I wasn't expecting this episode to be so amazing. I'm still pretty blown away by it. It certainly goes a ways towards making up for some of the episodes I haven't liked the past two seasons. I didn't think they'd top the Doctor's Wife this year, but I think they just did.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:56 a.m. CST

    Dear BBC...

    by Peter

    Last night, you demonstrated that a 50-year-old sci-fi series intended as a cheap kids show can still possess dramatic power. This was Doctor Who firing on all cylinders; an imaginative sci-fi concept that serves a human, character-driven story. The acting, effects, direction and writing were all top-notch. Look at what you can do! Now, *PLEASE* go back and digitally edit out the dewdrop on the end of Rory's notice as he and his aged wife share their tender final moment, separated only by the Tardis door. Really. It's all I could think about during that scene.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:57 a.m. CST

    re: essays and English

    by Hideo Kojima

    Essays are important because not only do they promote the proper use of the English language, they also allow the mind to think. Someone mentioned the act of coming up with a thesis, etc. Good writing leads to good communication, not just in the writing itself but how your brain processes information and uses critical thinking to come to a conclusion. Now, please let me rant about how atrocious peoples' English (American or otherwise) has become. Apparently the vast majority of people don't comprehend the following: The differences between "there," "their," and "they're." The difference between "its," and "it's." People using parentheses instead of brackets when inserting words into a quote... REALLY??! Incorrect plurals. I've heard people say "brother-in-laws." Get real. :end rant

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:08 a.m. CST

    This Episode Was the Beginning of the End for Amy & Rory...

    by Hellstrom

    They get put through the ringer again next episode and I think they depart (perhaps mutually?) by the end of 11...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:09 a.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    Ouch is correct. Our Doc is taking an inordinate amount onto his broad shoulders, and week after week you can see the emotional toll it is taking on him, downplayed beautifully by Smith. It is no wonder that he is walking to his death, and one would suppose after that amount of time and causing that amount of damage he wouldn't welcome it. That doesn't stop me believing in the "out" regarding his death. Alot more than meets the eye here!!! Regarding the quotation marks, I have never had a problem using them and have never had any of my posts truncated as a result. I guess I'm just lu ;))

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:14 a.m. CST

    v'shael -- Amy

    by HornOrSilk

    I do give her some slack, which is why I say, in the end she can be led to do what is right. But she is not as natural at it as Rory

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:18 a.m. CST

    re: America's school system..

    by Hideo Kojima

    I'm quite tired of how often I see people on the internet put shit on the "American education system" when it, frankly, doesn't exist. Because of Federalism, schools are left to each individual State to govern and maintain. Some states have much better education programs than others, unfortunately. These also vary within the state due to different counties having different budgets. I live in Minnesota, and if you look at nationwide statistics regarding education, our state ranks highly. So I take quite an offense to the blanket statement that American schools aren't as good as ____. That's generalizing all American schools as being the same. "That's ignorant." -Michael Jackson, "South Park." There's this perception of the United States across the pond that is stereotypical and generalized. They assume there's this ubiquitous and uniform culture and that isn't so. While, obviously, there are nationwide cultural values, each state feels like its own entity, and has its own identity. I was once down on the banks of the mighty Mississippi, smoking a cigarette and drinking a nice Scotch.. This is in Minneapolis. Some bloke that was standing out there also came up to me and asked, in a beautiful Scottish brogue, "Say, is this really the Mississippi, or are my friends taking the piss?" I told him yeah it was, and that its source was from a lake "up north." He said he always imagined the Mississippi as a "southern thing" and I mentioned probably because of Mark Twain lol. He then went on to tell me that this was his first time in America, and that he went to New York, then to Georgia, then to Florida, and then Illinois (Chicago I believe) and finally ended up in the Twin Cities... He said it was really not like he thought of at all and that each place felt "like its own country" and I was like yeah, it's true... we had a laugh about it and another scotch.. good times... sorry for the extended rant I'm a little drunk right now :)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:19 a.m. CST

    sam why I think not River

    by HornOrSilk

    While River had the cramps, why would she raise her daughter to hate the Doctor like that? Old Amy has a reason to do so.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:21 a.m. CST

    Sam -- and about Amy

    by HornOrSilk

    It's not just her attitude in this, but her attitude towards herself we have seen, even in the short episode before the season started. She is a bit into herself -- while Rory is all about others. But what makes Amy still a hero is that, unlike some, when the going gets tough, she will still make the right decision. She might have to be encouraged to do it, but she will.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:28 a.m. CST

    Sam -- Fenric

    by HornOrSilk

    While I highly doubt Fenric is back, there are some reasons why I could see Fenric being brought back... 1) Fenric is more than the McCoy episode. Fenric is Norse myth. 2) Fenric is very much like an evil version of the McCoy Doctor, manipulating people, time and space for his whims (a theme we see starting to show up in this episode is something the Smith Doctor is up to as well) 3) Fenric really likes to use the Doctor's allies against him 4) Chess 5) Curse of Fenric is beloved as episodes go Now I still don't think it is Fenric, and either the name is wrong OR coincidence. But I still can see Fenric here, especially since Fenric is Nordic and brings out the end of the world (or universe).

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:28 a.m. CST

    Sam -- btw, the Jedi have been overthrown

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:30 a.m. CST

    Everyone always says Hugh Laurie should be the next Doctor...

    by Hideo Kojima

    I think Stephen Fry would make a better Doctor than Hugh Laurie, IMO.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:33 a.m. CST

    So glad they left the old Amy behind...

    by DanT

    I couldn't imagine what would happen to the Tardis if they had to jettison the karoke room!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:39 a.m. CST

    Doctor Who and kids......

    by sam jacksons wig

    Talking to my 10 year old daughter is an absolute joy. Not only do you get a kids view on the world, which is often more honest than us adults who are predisposed to the odd little white lie due to a lifetime of negativity and prolonged exposure to hefty doses of undiluted reality, combined with a grown ups worries.... ...oops, a little more maudlin there than I intended... ..anywho, as she watched Night terrors for what seemed the 12th time (I am sure it is hovvering around that mark- Moff and Co definately scored one for the kids with this episode!!) she began to tell me of friends at school that come in with their sonic screwdrivers and bow ties (both of which have been given away free in a kids Who magazine as of late) and walk about the school yard singing "Tiiiiiick tooock, goes the clock..." So I asked her "Oh, is that one or two of them, then?" "No dad," she replied. " About 30 or 40 of them." Disbelieving Dad should have listened and respected a kids honesty; for I have seen it with my own eyes. Kids playing Doctor Who in a playground in a world filled with so many gadgets to rob them of their childhood time. It made me smile.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:42 a.m. CST

    Sam -- just think how Sydney Newman and Verity Lambert would feel

    by HornOrSilk

    I can only imagine what their reaction would have been. After all the ups and downs of the show, to be so strong this close to the 50th anniversary, they would have been proud. Even if it did go all bug-eyed-monster.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:48 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima

    by gotilk

    If I were forced to choose between the two, I would pick Fry as well. He just *fits* the role better than Laurie. But they are both very, very talented performers and I would be happy to see either of them in the role.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:49 a.m. CST


    by BiggusDickus

    Love that little anecdote! It's great to see kids really loving Who and incorporating it into their play. Using their imagination, as opposed to plugging in the Wii... My daughter is seven and came away from the Olympia 'Experience' with a handful of those 'not-Lego' Lego figures. Two of which are Cybermen. She's named them Sid and Stan. As I type this, they have joined the Doctor, Amy, a Weeping Angel and the rest of the Sylvanian family in her doll's house and everyone's having breakfast...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:49 a.m. CST

    SJW! lol

    by gotilk

    You got me. I really thought your post was cut off for a moment there.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:53 a.m. CST

    An obvious ep

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    Another ok ep, better than last weeks but still not enjoying this season as much as the last. I thought the story was rather obvious to be honest, you could see after 15 mins what was going to happen, all this stuff in the ep has been done before in other sci fi shows and movies and done better. Let's make Amy live the 36 yrs in another time stream which is slower than ours ( star trek TNG - Inner light) and then let's solve the problem and leave the old one behind..yawn. SO OBVIOUS, all this stuf was signposted from the start. It's almost as writer Tom McRae said, i'm gonna try and go for a real high concept ep with an emotional twist and copied and pasted some great sci fi stories together. Yes Gillan and Darvill were good and there were several funny lines ( Rory - Can we have 2 amy's? The Doctor - i dunno it's your marriage!) but all this has been seen before and better i'm afraid.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:54 a.m. CST


    by timesfool

    Surprised no previous mention anywhere that the voice of the interface was the fabulous Imelda Staunton (Dolores Umbridge in the Harry Potter films).

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:54 a.m. CST

    Also.... Amy in her 50s?

    by gotilk

    Not too shabby.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:57 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb: re Portal 2

    by Hideo Kojima

    I wonder if one of the art designers is a video game fan.. I thought of this as well.. and remember when we said Starship UK reminded us of Bioshock... :)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:58 a.m. CST

    candy ass monkey suit

    by HornOrSilk

    The thing is, it builds up the characters, and I have a feeling the consequences of this episode will be seen in a way similar to a certain Star Trek:TNG episode led to an infamous half-Romulan villain.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:02 a.m. CST

    gotilk....... :))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • I'll tell you in a future life, when we are both cats.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:08 a.m. CST

    GlaDOS vs The Doctor

    by Hideo Kojima

    the banter would be epic

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:13 a.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    We're all presuming that it is Melody who has been raised to hate/kill the Doc, and all of the info we are getting seems to back up that fact- I do however think we are being blindsided, and not subtly either. With the snippets of info I have gleaned (and some of them may turn out to be bullshit, I grant you) the following assumptions have been made: Amy kills Korvarian. It happens in a redundant timeline. She is regretful of doing so and admits this to River song. She does so as River is personally invested in Korvarian, or why bother? I am guessing River is tied to korvarian in more ways than just being brought up by her to butcher the Doc. They have red hair. I do think that Korvarian will be Rivers offspring, (maybe that of the Doc, who knows?) and is offed by her grandmother. To quote Greg Wallace- "Deeeeeeeeep..." As for fenric, I REALLY need to fucking catch up with that episode!!!

  • because I'm terribly allergic. *weep* Love cats so much.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:17 a.m. CST

    I think Sydney newman would have been proud...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...of what Who has become. And he has every right to be. I'll bet he's having a scotch in heaven and toasting the success of the show!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:20 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Well, if Korvarian is her daughter, even from an alternative time line, you can also understand the regret. River would have been raised by a (half?) sister who her mother would eventually think she has to kill to save the universe. That, I think, is where we are heading. Talk about regret. And maybe Amy only learns after she did it who she really is -- and she regrets it even more, because she feels she could have done something different. As for Fenric, I think, if they did bring him back, you wouldn't need to know anything about him to understand the episode he is in. However, Fenric is all about time traps and the end of the universe, so you can see why people would say such a character makes sense here. But again, I don't think it will be him -- however, I think it was Night Terrors I saw a chess board (or was it in Lets Kill Hitler?) I just remember, oddly enough, seeing a chess board in one episode... and it made me think... as an old school fan. I think you will like Curse of Fenric. I suggest if you have the DVD, watch the special movie edition (though they did a crazy foolish rehash of scenes in that which was not in any other edition).

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:21 a.m. CST

    by Hideo Kojima

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:23 a.m. CST

    biggusdickus ...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..first present on my youngests Xmas list? The 11th Doctors sonic screwdriver. I must get her this as she keeps trying to locate my 10th Doctor screwdriver, which incidentally SHE and her sister bought for me, and through some demented logic gives her the right to "play with it and run out the batteries!" And I hope that breakfast is nice in the Sylvanian mansion, and that the Weeping Angels are behaving themselves and not hogging all of the cereal.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:29 a.m. CST

    is this broken?

    by Hideo Kojima

    wibbly wobbly timey wimey

  • time and space colliding

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:33 a.m. CST

    Hideo's link

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:34 a.m. CST

    And hide's Don't Blink

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:36 a.m. CST

    Sam- btw, about chess

    by HornOrSilk

    One reason I keep mentioning it is the Doctor trapped Fenric originally while they played a game of chess. Ever since then, Fenric seems to like to tell the Doctor of his presence through chess boards... is about a min from Curse of Fenric which explains this (Fenric btw is a force which can inhabit bodies - I can see Fenric developing flesh!)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:48 a.m. CST

    One problem with Curse

    by HornOrSilk

    How much I do like Ace's character, and I think Sophie Aldred at times got her right (even in this), key scenes she just.. missed it. One can like the story despite it, but when she tries to seduce or when she becomes an emotional wreck, you just don't believe it from her... Yet, if one looked beyond that, Curse of Fenric is the kind of story which would fit well in the Moff's era. It turns the whole of the early Ace era into an arc, the Doctor is very manipulative, and time/space paradoxes are the means by which Fenric works his havoc.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5 a.m. CST

    Saying all that -- spoilers for Curse of Fenric

    by HornOrSilk

    Moff is doing a lot which parallels Ace's story with River. Ace loves/hates her mother. I'm not sure if River has love/hate feelings for Amy (it's hard to tell, but I can imagine she had anger at one time toward her, hence the indifference/threats in Let's Kill Hitler), but she certainly has it for the Doctor. Ace was a trap for the Doctor, set up by Fenric. River is a trap for the Doctor, set up by the Silence. Ace was going to become a Time Lord. River is a Time Lord. Ace and River are known for their violence..

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:09 a.m. CST

    Horn- I have just erm.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .....procured Fenric, which I believe is a re-scored version (or so the file tells me.) I have had a quick skip through (Nicolas parsons!!!) and intend to watch it very soon. i will give you my thoughts on it later.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:11 a.m. CST

    Sam -- cool

    by HornOrSilk

    One thing I will say, remember the budget of the time. I think McCoy does wonderful in this one, as do a few of the other main characters, but all the main women just are unconvincing and hurt the story, slightly. But the story as a whole is what I loved, despite what some of the actresses did with their parts.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:12 a.m. CST

    Art books

    by ComicGuru

    There have been a number of titles over the years but you may want to check out Peter McKinstrys website. He has posted up a lot of the pre production design work he's done online. And your right its beautiful. Check out Andrew Skilleters Timeframe and pretty much the whole of the Who Dares Publishing back catalogue. Trouble is most of it is now out of print.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:19 a.m. CST

    There is a current Doctor Who RPG from Cubicle 7

    by ComicGuru

    I've been playing it for months at the shop and the mechanics of it are excellent. Pick it up its still available and pretty easy to pick up as these things go. Its also fairly brutal. Most of the bad guys have instant kills so you have to think your way out of situations just like the actual show. Check it out.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:32 a.m. CST

    We also have Captain Britain, Death's Head...

    by ComicGuru

    Dark Angel, Marvelman, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Mark Millar, Neil Gaiman and Warren Ellis to name a few heroes and their creators/writers. (you notice that I don't mention the Doctor. Simply because its almost too obvious. LOL) We have a very rich comic history. I defy anyone not to read Paul Cornells run on Captain Britain and MI 13 and not find it one of the best things to have been published as comics in years.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:53 a.m. CST

    Death's Head still is Doctor Who

    by HornOrSilk


  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:04 a.m. CST

    Loved it... just can't get by one bit...

    by dj_bollocks

    At the beginning Rory can exit and get we see him back in the original room the Tardis is... Amy has an exit button too.... so why didn't she just press that to get out ? Rory going in goes to a different time stream fine... That's the one glaring plothole that if it was explained I certainly missed it, but what a wonderful piece of telly.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:09 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I think they "found" something in her; they didn't find it in Rory. This should tell us something about Rory's makeup. Is he still human?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:33 a.m. CST

    Amys room had no exit button.

    by V'Shael

    Rory entered the doorway and backed out of his red room. Not a plot problem.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:58 a.m. CST

    Hmmm I think I've figured it out...

    by dj_bollocks

    At 1.30 you're right, when she goes in there is no button... The shot at 1.55, 2.11, 2.43 suggests that there is but I think the perspective must be that this is the other side of the room... bit confusing though... Took me a good few views to get it it !

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:15 a.m. CST

    v'shael, re: ganger amy

    by Rebel Scumb

    That's a good point about the goo being a later century version of it. I can live with that as an explanation. Thanks!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:17 a.m. CST

    history 101, the one you fall in love with...

    by Rebel Scumb

    I completely agree. Of all the movies and tv shows over the years that have pontificated about Love, I thought maybe there was nothing original left to say, but Dr. Who proved me wrong. A truly wonderful moment that anyone with any depth should be able to relate to.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:20 a.m. CST

    hideo, re: lords prayer

    by Rebel Scumb

    This was in London, Ontario (Canada). Public school system, circa 1987ish. Not long after was when the seperation of church and state came in a lot bigger. Stores allowed to open on sundays, no more prayer in school.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:22 a.m. CST

    SJW re: cats

    by Rebel Scumb

    A fellow siamese lover! They are such a great breed and have such a horrible reputation which I chalk up almost entirely to Lady and the Tramp. Ali, my 18 year old is the third siamese I've had over the course of my life.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:24 a.m. CST

    hideo, re: gamelike designs

    by Rebel Scumb

    I completely agree. And if so they are certainly taking inspiration from some great games. Now if we could just get an Ico, or Shadow of the Colossus style episode...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:26 a.m. CST

    A thought I had about a female doctor & Rory

    by Rebel Scumb

    I was just thinking about how beloved Rory has become. If they got rid of Amy at some point, but kept Rory, it would be a good way to transition to a female doctor if thats the direction they wanted to go.

  • For me, and it's not really a criticism, because they did everything right on this one, but I guess I was slightly dissappointed that they didn't go with a less obvious resolution of saving Young Amy and losing Old Amy. The actual execution and 'Rory's choice' (would have been another great title for this episode) was great and heart wrenching. But I guess with all of these 'what if' type episodes, like Amy's choice, or the girl who waited, there's a part of me (and I presume most of the audience) that knows that the reality where 5 years have gone by and Amy is pregnant and Rory has a bad pony tail is not going to turn out to be the real one. Likewise the series was unlikely to continue with a 57 year old Amy riding around the Tardis with Rory and the doctor. But wouldn't it have been absolutely nuts if it had!? I guess thats what makes moments like the season 2 finale of BSG, or the season 3 finale of LOST so memorable is they defied the normal status quo of what you thought that paritcular show could do. Again, I don't mean that as a dig against Dr. Who, or the girl who waited in particular, it was a beautiful piece of television and a great episode of Who.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:39 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb -- my take still

    by HornOrSilk

    The choice was done, but the choice has more ramifications than in Amy's Choice. This could be the creation of the Silence, imo.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:49 a.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Very interesting if true.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:12 a.m. CST

    Speeds backwards from original concept?

    by Dreamfasting

    This episode did have one little thing that bothered me - not a plot hole, but more of a small logic twist that the script had to work in to make the concept work. The rational way to build the facility is to have the quarentined person in an artificially slow timestream (so that their day lasts a lifetime while the visitors come and go over the course of their lives for visits). Unfortunately that means it's the people on the long-aging track that are free to move and ther person aging slowly who is trapped - not exactly a recipe for drama. So to make the fast-aging stream the one that is trapped, the physiological mechanics of the facility had to become rather convoluted: she doesn't need to eat, wouldn't get sicker, but continues to age. I fear this did distract my suspension of disbelief a little more than I should have allowed it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:19 a.m. CST

    Well....okay, just watched Fenric.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....and I have to say it wasn't all that bad. I actually went into it with my preconceptions firmly switched off, and what i found was a very interesting and creepy tale played out (almost) very well. Firstly, let me get the main niggle out of the way: I hated he Ace character going in, and this left me unchanged. For God's sake, it's fucking DOCTOR!!! After the third or fourth time of this OVERSIGHT I found the vitriol spilling up inside me again and ceased to give two hoots about her. She was plainly terrible, and that's not just through an inherent dislike; Horn was correct- her seduction techique on the guard was painful to behold. She looked like she had trapped wind. Even her eveal as a Child Of fenric did litle to save the character- she did absolutely nothing with it. Turn on the Doctor? Act remotely eeeevil? Nope...just lie on the floor weeping as the Doc lays into you verbally. Ace.... I am so glad your time is up. The good? Well, alot really. The cockernee girls Pyllis and Jean were useless before they were turned into haemovores, but once changed were creepy as fuck. They may have just walked around with their hands in the air and clutched their heads when someone had faith (hello, Fright Night!!!) but exuded a quiet menace and looked the part. The norse rising from the sea and hanging around in the graveyard also was unexpected and quite welcome. The episode was quite violent, and I liked the fact it never shirked on this- melting vamps, people being shot dead (multiple if you include the repeated shooting of the two undersea blobs upon the church roof), gassed, dragged under the sea to drown, and exsanguination. I loved the superstitous element to the tale; the norse myth, the reading from the translation intercut with underwater shots of the ships figurehead and old wives tales. That kind of shit hooks me every time. McCoy- in a new light and after (quite) a few years was ultimately watchable. Good humour ("Ahhh- everyone a heartbreaker") and a short fuse (berrating Ace in the church) due to the impatience of others not being as smart and quick as he is. I even smiled as he chanted the names of old companions..a very nice touch. One other nitpick- there was alot of not noticing things until they were almost ontop of you- the blobs on the beach whilst the Russian soldiers stood like lemons, and the attack in the church, both of which stuck out like sore thumbs. However, small fry comapred to my overall enjoyment, and going a long way to washing the bad taste of McCoy from my mouth..... .......and that last sentence seemed AWFULLY wrong, didn't it??? ;)) SJW.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:33 a.m. CST

    Sam -- Now we are talking

    by HornOrSilk

    Ok, now we can talk about Curse of Fenric and you are up to date on it. I think two major problems with it is the director just sometimes didn't do well (especially with Sophie), and the budget hurt (as can be seen with the way some of the attacks worked). However, I think you need to see Ace beyond how Sophie played her (or was directed) and with the character as a whole. Her faith in the Doctor had to be shattered in order for the Doctor to save her - talk about a paradox. The whole story is about paradoxes of time -- Ace hates her mother, but loves her; the Great Old One's time line is all a paradox... these kind of paradoxes seem to find their place in the new series. I do think more could have/should have been made of Ace as the Wolf of Fenric. However, part of being a Wolf is that the Wolves themselves are often part of the game of traps -- Fenric wants the Doctor to bow to save Ace -- that is what her role was, to make the Doctor bow before him. The Doctor didn't. However, in some of the audios, what the Doctor does here does have playback from time to time, with Ace protective of others because she knows how cruel the Doctor can be to execute his plans. So, Ace as a character I like, and at times I think Sophie did ok, though I think someone who really was a great actress would have been able to up their game in this (even with a bad director) and add touches to really make the weaknesses here settle in the background. I'm glad you are able to appreciate McCoy as the Doctor better now. You can see how he could have been, if they let this kind of characterization continue. Yes, he really got snappy with Ace. And, now back to the current S5 and S6. Doesn't it seem like there are all kinds of similarities going on with Curse and the whole Arc? We have seen "Vampires" who somehow have been touched by the Silence. River is in many ways Ace, with her love/hate being with the Doctor instead of her mother. Ace WAS meant to become a Time Lord, River is. And the whole kind of paradoxes and traps via companions seem to be all around the Doctor right now. Also, you can see how, if Fenric is brought back, it wouldn't require much for the audience. In here, Fenric is shown as a previous force the Doctor fought, but we never saw it. That can be the way it is approached again -- if that is the plan (I still doubt it). But Fenric does work as a kind of answer, especially since Fenric is all about time paradoxes, making the Doctor sweat, and the end of the universe.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:36 a.m. CST

    Rebel - The plan was not to travel.

    by Perigee

    Old Amy made it plain that she wasn't going to make it a triad as they made their way through the basement - she wanted to relocate. Who could blame her? They could have dropped her off at Betelgeuse 4 during an interstitial and that would have been that.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:43 a.m. CST

    And... There. One over the total posts for Star Wars.

    by Perigee

    For now. C'mon, get yappy, lil' Whovians. They shall not sur-pass!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:48 a.m. CST

    perigee but we have more posts over 24 hours

    by HornOrSilk

    So we will stay on top. And as we know, the TARDIS is like a top... so of course we win.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    old amy

    by Rebel Scumb

    Well even that would have been interesting, just knowing there was another older Amy out there. I always admired Farscape when in the 3rd season (to my memory) they did an episode with duplicates, and Crichton got duplicated and the episode was set up for the typical duplicate dies, everything goes back to status quo type monster of the week scifi show scenario. But then in the end the duplicate survives, and goes on to survive and become a very important part of the show for many episodes to come. Anyways, I didn't mean to make a big thing out of it, again tGWW was a great Dr.Who episode and the execution of the final decision was perfect, and haunting. Its just my personal taste that I love stories that subvert expectations and break up the status quo unexpectedly.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:07 a.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    "Kill her.." YES!!! I shouted! Do it now! Rid us of this god awful character once and for all!!! And getting over that, it is what really endeared me to McCoys take in the end. You really thought he meant it, and I'm sure there was something inside that did. His lack of patience was a blessing, as was his ultimate ruthlessness. You see, we had gotten rid of Mel (thank the maker), I had survived the mess that was Dragonfire, and then we are left with Ace, who was completely out of place for me. Sheds have acted better. I never let her story finish, and it was good to know that the Doc had realised what she was since the Ice Storm brought them together. I suppose that was quite cool. As far as Fenric, a name given to a force of evil from before time began, then yes, if it was explained as such then it would be easy to fit into modern day Who. They have managed to do so with Macra and the likes, so why not? Played as creepy as this episode was I feel it would fit right in. And as far as paradoxes are concerened, the similarities are so blatantly obvious you would have to have your head removed and eyes melted not to see them. However, I still am firmly planted in field "this has absolutely nothing to do with anything in S6." So, yes, I enjoyed. Now Silver Nemesis and Ghost Light beckon. Oh, and I sincerely apologise for sentence structure (or lack of) and grammatical errors in this sodding post of mine. Re-reading it, it seems as if I've hired one of my cats to take dictation from a drunken illiterate....... BAH!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    They pulled it on Star Trek, Rebel

    by Perigee Heh. And Spider-Man, for that matter. The thing that made this so remarkable for me is that nobody in these franchises would have had the cojones to say, "Alright - we got the real one back, so ~KaPOW!~," and shot the other one dead just to keep the number of Rikers and Spider-Men down. Somewhere along the line the writer made a choice: we would have bought an alternate Amy dropped off at Altair's Home for the Aged - we wouldn't have questioned it, if the writer didn't bring it up. But MacRae decided to go for the kidney punch. That is just so cool, from the story's point of view.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:14 a.m. CST

    Sam -- as for sentence structure and like

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm always of the opinion, when writing quick comments, it doesn't really matter if people can follow along with what one is saying. I can be quite bad when writing comments. When I try to sit down and write something serious, I'm quite different in tone and style. I try to take it more seriously. Quick comments? Not really. So that's cool.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    Sam as for whether or not we have Fenric

    by HornOrSilk

    I agree, unlikely. However, if there is any hidden, surprise "previous foe" involved with the current season, I certainly can see Fenric as one of the top choices. And the IMDB is probably wrong, but there is a slim, slim chance something has been leaked. It would fit, but again, doubtful. Ghostlight is another good one (though they had to cut so much out of it, it can be hard to follow and one has to trust oneself to fill in the blanks which were there in the original script). Curse of Fenric does have a reference to it, too. I think it was also one of Sophie's better acting jobs in the series (not saying you will find her excellent, but that she does the part better). Silver Nemesis has some good ideas, but is really badly directed, and the script I think needed another go-over before it was filmed.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST

    It was SO personal...

    by Perigee

    When you think about it, they could have knocked off Alternate Amy So Easily - one little dart at the threshold of the TARDIS, and The Doctor would have had no responsibility. Old Amy could have died a heroic, hackneyed death, did her little speech, and dematerialized when the TARDIS started to Ooogah. But nooo. Blood right there on the Doctor's hands, preplanned semi-homocide. Damn. I am So impressed that the vision of it all managed to make it through production.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST

    WOW again & SJW re: cats

    by batmancw

    Just wow again. Absolutely one of the best Who episodes I can remember. Great writing and acting like this brings tears to my eyes. A question re: the Amy = Kovarian theories. Are y'all thinking she(Kovarian) has purposely disguised herself? Just curious, as the resemblance just isn't strong enough for me to but into that theory UNLESS that idea is part of it. SJW: VERY GLAD to hear your cat is on the mend. My wife and I have 2 littermates-a boy & girl, and they are our "children", so I understand how upsetting it can be if/when they fall ill. Particularly since they can't tell us what is wrong. I cannot imagine what would happen should ONE of them die, as they are SO bonded & have never been apart. Fortunately, they are young 3 year olds, so hopefully we won't have to deal with that for a looong time. We just had our 19 year old make the journey to cat-heaven, so we are contemplating adding another youngster to the family & have been considering a siamese. I think they are wonderfully beautiful cats & like yourself, don't buy the bad rap. Cheers

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:24 a.m. CST

    Tom Riker

    by Rebel Scumb

    Yeah that's another good example, especially because there is a scene where it seems obvious that Tom will sacrifice himself to save Will, but they both end up living. But at the end Tom still leaves to find his own path (although does have a cool return in DS9)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:49 a.m. CST

    Rule Number One

    by Cree

    I don't believe anything the Doctor says anymore because as we all know that rule number one is THE DOCTOR LIES.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:50 a.m. CST

    batmancw ..

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..firstly, cheers re:cats. Siamese are beautiful things, and mine are very loving. They like nothing more than to be cuddled, and imprint firmly on those around them. They are both 6, so hopefully plenty of years left with them!!! If they were to be separated now, I truly believe it would kill them both. They would just pine away for each other. They give me nothing but joy!!! Regarding Korvarian- if there are any family links I truly believe that she will turn out to be Rivers daughter, but more than likely just a bad bad person (and a little sexy I might add!!!) who's desire to destroy the Doctor will ousted as no more than him being the Universe's ultimate threat. Stay safe!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:51 a.m. CST

    In Plain Sight

    by History101

    The conversation that the Dr is having with the astronaut... Is that when the question is asked?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:52 a.m. CST

    Horn (and BIG spoilers contained within guys!!!).. hidden foe...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...weren't the Daleks supposed to be this series well kept secret hidden foe?? Unfortunately their existence this year didn't remain hidden for long. This years hidden foe? Maybe the Alliance??

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:54 a.m. CST

    Why can't there be two Amy's in the Tardis again?

    by stv

    There were two in the Tardis at the same time in Time Crash.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 9:58 a.m. CST

    V'shael - Rory waiting

    by DoctorTom

    no, he wasn't in isolation for 2000 years, but he was spending his time guarding the Pandorica. I'm sure at some point he had at least 36 years being alone guarding it. <br> I'm willing to cut Amy some slack, but (as I pointed out) they have played her persona more to be 'me me me' rather than Rory who is more for looking out after others.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:12 a.m. CST

    Kovarian and Amy

    by DoctorTom

    Rebel - I was thinking Kovarian was a little older than that, so it might have been old Amy a few years later on. <br> I hadn't seen the clip with Amy killing Kovarian, though, and that throws a monkey wrench into that theory. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if there had been something between old Amy and Kovarian prior to the former killing the latter. <br> I like the theory of Kovarian being River's daughter. Of course, it raises the question of who's the daddy...well, not that much of a question, probably more of when the Doctor and River get around to that - maybe it was just after the Doctor dropped Stevie Wonder back off after his singing engagement? Or after River's wedding night? The problem there is we don't know when in River's timeline she gets married compared to when she has the pains in Florida. Of course, we could end up finding out that sharing regeneration energy is one of the leading causes of Time Lord pregnancy, with a hell of a long gestation which case Donna Noble's going to have a big surprise any year now. ;) <br> Somehow it feels aesthetically pleasing that Kovarian could be River's daughter, with even more Time Lord DNA (which would give her plenty of time to be fighting an endless war with the Doctor). It also wouldn't surprise me if we find that the older Amy raises Kovarian and indoctrinates her into the Doctor hatred. Then, they set up the plan to kidnap Kovarian's mom as a baby and raise here (timey wimey). <br> IF this were true, then it raises the question of why the old Amy would kill Kovarian. I can think of two. The lesser probability would be that Kovarian is going to kill River and Amy still feels the bond to her daughter (the timeline split in The Girl Who Waited was after giving birth). It just doesn't seem like she's got that feeling for River, though, so I doubt this is why (but still, I felt it should be noted as a remote possibility). What I think will happen, though, is that Kovarian will be in a situation where she's about to kill Rory - or has already had Rory killed (maybe she has River kill Rory?) and, given that they've shown the older Amy still loving Rory, she gets revenge by killing Kovarian.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    nzleroi - Double the Amy, Double the Fun

    by DoctorTom

    actually, it was the Time/Space two parter, not Time Crash. <br> Of course, Time Crash *does* have two Doctors at two different points in their timestreams, as does The Three Doctors. <br> It's a good point that it's been accomodated before. Possible answers: <br> 1) Since Time/Space, there have been problems with the TARDIS that won't let it happen any more. <br> 2) (possibly tieing in with 1) The part of the TARDIS holding the equipment that would help keep the paradoxes in check was in one of the rooms jettisoned when the Doctor when into the pocket universe or came back in The Doctor's Wife. <br> 3) The Doctor has some foreknowledge that the older Amy will be around later but wasn't coming on to the TARDIS - though he did seem a little bit flummoxed by the older Amy's appearance when Rory first saw her, maybe it was the shock of recognition. <br> 4) The Doctor thought she'd still try to go through with her threat to kill him, despite him bringing the both into the TARDIS. <br> 5) The Doctor's just being a bastard and knows it's hard enough living with one Amy, let alone 2. <br> (Note that for 3 through 5, the Doctor is lying to Rory about not being able to do it) <br> 6) (the most likely explanation) The writers/producers forgot about it before or decided from a dramatic standpoint to strategically forget that it had been done before.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:24 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    All kinds of "hidden foes" do come out. Which is why I don't discount the possibility of Fenric. I think it is unlikely, but still a chance... especially with everything we have seen.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:30 a.m. CST

    SJW--re: where did you watch Fenric

    by batmancw

    After reading many of the comments here last night re: Fenric, I read about the eps & was curious where you watched it. Do you own it, or were you viewing it online? Thanks in advance Also re: the Hidden Foe I'd read somewhere online that it would likely be Omega, and of course, Demon's Run was an Omega symbol-fest. That said, I'm still curious about the "patriarchal mainframe" comment. makes it sound as though the religion to combat the Doctor is run by a machine, which could well = Dalek involvement. Now that were this far into the season, I'm starting to wonder if Moffat is planning on extending this arc(the Silence will fall & death of the Doctor) into NEXT season as well. There seems to be quite a lot to "wrap up" in the final 3 eps otherwise. Granted, we've seen that done before, but perhaps he is playing a long game with the hidden villain, just as has been done with revealing the truth about River. She's been in 10 episodes now, and while we ALL have our theories, we still dont know for sure who "the good man" she killed was/is. My bet is still on Rory. Something about the way she looked at him & said his name in the Beginning of AGMGTW really reinforced that idea for me, plus I think having it be the Doctor is just a tad too obvious.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:32 a.m. CST

    history101 -

    by sam jacksons wig

    My take on that is the Doc giving instructions to whoever is ion the suit on what they have to do, maybe talking them into it. You can see him pointing and gesturing before he is shot. You will almost certainly hear this conversation in episode 13, so I don't believe it will be when the question is asked. Thatt will be saved for next year. SJW.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:33 a.m. CST

    Fenric (slight spoiler? for Episode 13)

    by DoctorTom

    I'll agree that it's a remote possibility that Fenric will show up, and that it's more likely a Norse god-type. <br> That got me thinking, though - we've seen the Doctor described as a god and as a trickster/warrior/goblin, and also described as a wizard (future incarnation as Merlin, good wizards in fairy tales inevitably turn out to be him). <br> What if we find out that the Norse mythical god Loki (god of tricks and magic) is actually the Doctor? Norse myths exaggerated (slightly) his exploits, making him a god. Now, Loki was the son of frost giants, not the Norse Gods themselves. Maybe you can substitute Time Lords for Frost giants. (Also, it makes you look at the title of the upcoming 13th Doctor Who Confidential - Frozen Time - in a slightly different light.) <br> <br> Now, if Fenric's supposed to be the equivalent of Fenrir or Fenris - well, Fenrir is one of Loki's children. Interesting possibilities if they follow that up. <br> <br> Now, in another thing with Fenrir, he is supposed to consume Odin at Ragnarok. It did look like we saw a one-eyed Norse possible-deity type, and Odin had only one eye because he sacrificed the other to gain wisdom. What if 'consuming' Odin in this case means 'possessing and taking over' Odin? Maybe the Norse guy we see *is* Fenric. (Doubtful, but there's still the possibility. I think someone saw the Norse theme and chessboard in the trailer, and based on that stuck Fenric in on the IDMB listing.)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:34 a.m. CST

    2 Amys in the TARDIS was just fine in Time and Space

    by veteran_of_mu

    2 Amys in the TARDIS was just fine in Time and Space. So ... I think the Doc thought older Amy was a monster who should be eliminated because of her hatred for him. I loved this episode. I don't go with all the superlatives Sam's been hitting it with because I'm more interested in the overall arc. But it was a really strong return to form and one I'm going to need to re-watch to grok. The "watch them live for 24 hours" idea was very different to what we all expected and made for a novel premise. Gillan completely sold the thing and showed a range I never would have credited before. I think we're going to have to put S6 part 1's goggle-eyed-Amy down to Gillan hinting at being a ganger. This last episode shows the girl can really act. And, okay, just have to say, verrry nice bum. The end of the episode will have ramifications. Younger Amy got saved but is going to be pissed that older Amy didn't. Rory clearly wants out and will take Amy with him. Ponds have had their lives fucked up royally by the Doc - their child stolen, their universe exploded, their timelines shredded. With this latest lie from the Doc they have to look at everything he says with deep suspicion. The only reason they have for staying with him is to somehow retrieve some version of baby Melody. In this light I find the start of this episode pretty mysterious. If you're expecting the Doc is working on getting you your kidnapped child back "on his life", how are you going to let him take you to a holiday destination? Aren't you going to insist he take the TARDIS to wherever Kovarian is hiding right fucking NOW? Then older Amy doesn't say a single word about River. Not even when she's tearing strips off the Doc. She spent 36 years alone ... and she didn't wonder how come River didn't rescue her either? And ... the TARDIS takes the Doc to where he needs to be. What about the 2 streams facility meant he needed to be there? It's not as if he was there to fix the plague. Or if he was, it's not as if he noticed. Something about this quite intentionally stinks to high heaven. Combined with last week's happy-horseshit episode there seem to be only 2 possibilities. Either the Moff pulled River-as-Amy's-daughter out of his arse at the last moment in AGMGTW/LKH and these episodes were written before that. OR what we're seeing is versions of Amy and Rory that haven't actually had a baby. I know no one will answer this stuff. MOV, if he's reading, already said he won't do that. I just hope there is a payoff. Because if there isn't, given the quality of what we're seeing in every other way, I'd have to lower my expectations of the Moff. And this last episode makes that pretty hard to do.

  • I just rewatched Silver Nemesis this last week. McCoy's good in parts, but there's some real problems with the story itself. <br> Ghost Light's a good story. It's also fun to watch and consider that the story is just keeping the 'creepy mansion' aspect from the earlier story he submitted - the Doctor going back to his ancestral home on Gallifrey and meeting his creepy relatives.

  • After Let's Kill Hitler, I think the Ponds are resigned to not finding baby Melody. After all, they realize that Amy in effect was being her mother all that time when they were growing up, meeting up with her after she had gone to the principal's office or bailing her out. Given what they know about fixed points and how things are working out, they're probably reconciled to Mels' life as being a fixed point now that it would be best not to change since it changes their lives. If they find baby Melody and change time, Mels wouldn't be around - does that mean that the penny would never drop for Amy and she wouldn't get with Rory, so they never have the baby? <br> As for the TARDIS always taking the Doctor to where he needs to go, you're focusing on the wrong thing. You're thinking the TARDIS took him there to cure the people. It didn't. If anything, it took him there to ensure that he could bring the older Amy into existence at the same time as the younger Amy. I think we'll be seeing more of the older Amy in future episodes; just because the Doctor warned them that the medicine might be lethal to human biology doesn't necessarily mean that it was.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:57 a.m. CST

    @nzleroi - The 2 Amy's solved...

    by V'Shael

    In Space/Time, the two parter mini-episode, causality wasn't violated. It was the same Amy, 5 minutes apart or whatever. But causality wasn't violated. There was no paradox. The old Amy here, was a paradox. She couldn't exist if young Amy didn't spend 36 years waiting for the Doctor and Rory. The Doctor lied by saying the Tardis might be able to support the paradox. It wasn't about having two Amy's in the TARDIS, so much as supporting the existence of the paradox. (Old Amy) Make sense?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST

    batmanwc - re: Omega

    by DoctorTom

    yes, there had been a lot of speculation about Omega, and there had been the Omega symbols seen in the army symbols. <br> Since then, though, in Let's Kill Hitler there was the mention of The Order of the Silence and the Academy of the Question. And we're told that they're looking for the First Question, the asking of which would bring about the end of everything. The omega symbols could just be the symbol for the end of everything that they're striving for causing when they find out what the First Question was. It doesn't have to be associated with the Time Lord Omega, it's just taking the old meaning of omega as the end. Of course it doesn't mean Omega *won't* show up, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. (I suspect if he's going to show up, it will be for the 50th anniversary, and not necessarily be related to what's going on now.)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:02 a.m. CST

    doctortom re: older Amy

    by batmancw

    I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that by rescuing "current Amy" that would mean the older Amy would never have existed--OR was THAT idea nullified when they were brought into the same time stream? I agree that it would be interesting to see the older Amy in the future, so perhaps your theory re: the Tardis taking him there to ensure her existence IS exactly what happened. Hmmmmm Curiouser and curiouser

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    "Patriarchal mainframe" ?? I thought they said Papal Mainframe.

    by V'Shael

    I thought it was a subtle dig at the Pope. Forget having a female pope, some time in the future, the church will have an AI as Pope.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    batmanwc - re: patriarchal mainframe

    by DoctorTom

    yes, the patriarchal mainframe could indicate Dalek involvement. On the other hand, it could indicate Cybermen involvement. In one of the second Doctor stories (The Invasion, I think) they had a mechanical cybercontroller - not the Michael Kilgaroff Cyber Controller - that was a computer. We've already seen Cybermen in the series, so it's possible we find they're behind the church at the time. <br> On the other hand, it could just be a normal computer. For all we know, it's the Interface for the Systems of the Two Streams facility on Appalappachia. Or it could be the return of BOSS. Or WOTAN. I doubt it's any of those, though. I suspect it will be either cyber-related or completely unrelated.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:10 a.m. CST

    you're right v'shael - papal mainframe, not patriarchal

    by DoctorTom

    I kept feeling there was something wrong when I typed patriarchal

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:13 a.m. CST

    batmanwc- they CLAIMED that the older Amy will be eliminated

    by DoctorTom

    however, we saw Amy still around in The Big Bang after young Amelia had been eliminated from the universe. It was established that they are anomalies and will still exist. Given that you had a brief moment with both Amys together, and the older Amy had not experienced even a brief rescue when younger, their timelines had already diverged. Given that, it wouldn't be surprising to see that the older Amy still existing as an anomaly and that she'll pop up again.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    (Theoretical spoiler...) The Viking in the trailer for part 2.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...looks like Mark Gatiss. Go on, have another look! It is a bugger to pause just right though! 0.28 seconds is where it is at!! So then, just who is he playing the chess game with, and what for? And what is the character???

  • I guess there you can pull out the old explanation of 'pulling the Doctors out of their timestreams', but what does that actually mean, other than a technobabble way of saying 'we'll explain it later'?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:16 a.m. CST

    Batman - Old Amy is gone.

    by Perigee

    You are correct - since, in Old Amy's timestream she saw Another Old Amy refuse to save her, she turned bitter - it was a time loop. Repeatedly, Old Amy said that if she was rescued, then her life after entering the facility never happened, therefore she would have never existed. Which is why she wouldn't help. Or, if you prefer, it's another take on "Lets Kill Hitler" - You kill hitler, so when you are born there is no hitler to kill, so you don't go back and kill hitler, so there is a hitler later, so you go back to kill him. I don't believe Older Amy figures into anything in the future. She died a noble, final, death - or, if you prefer, has finally never existed.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST

    @DoctorTom - The TimeLords, if I remember rightly,

    by V'Shael

    could barely pull the Doctors out of their timestreams and hold them together. Something the whole Time Lord society could barely do, the Doctor and an old Type 40 capsule, are not going to be able to do. That's the way I look at it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:24 a.m. CST

    We may have known the "question" plot arc longer than we think.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... I read this a while ago and honestly didn't pick up on the question angle until just's about THAT for staring you straight in the face???? "By Lake Silencio, on the Plain of Sighs, a story will begin and end. A good man is going to die [and] an impossible life will begin. “Our heroes will set out on the long road to the deadliest secret in the universe, and when it stares you in the face, you might just discover you’ve known about it all along.” That is the official synopsis for episode 13. So are we embarking on the journey to the question? What impossible life begins? And how? There is STILL so much to get through, and only 3 weeks left!!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Only 3 weeks left... and then, soon, The Void...

    by Perigee

    ~Sigh~ Wah.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:36 a.m. CST

    well, v'shael, to be fair to the Time Lords

    by DoctorTom

    at that time, Omega *was* causing severe power drains on Gallifrey, so their capacity for stabilizing things was severely compromised. <br> And, we did see the Master turn the TARDIS into a Paradox Engine that would allow all the Toclafane to come back to Earth and change everything. So, it's possible that the TARDIS could have stabilized one small Amy sized paradox, at least at one point.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST

    Any of you Whos in Whoville ...

    by DrMorbius

    An article about new action figures on the main page has this ... Doctor Who 2011 Wave 2 from Underground Toys Here’s a new round of 5-inch Flesh Mask-themed Doctor Who figures that includes the Flesh Doctor, the 11th Doctor, NASA Spaceman, Idris 1 with Mood Cube, Idris 5 with Mood Cube, River Song, and Uncle. All figures will come with a flesh mask accessory and flesh sachet. Look for them later this month. There is also a pic that you can enlarge ... Sorry if someone else has already posted this info ...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST


    by sam jacksons wig

    It is freely available to watch on youtube.. It is in 14 separate parts, and the guy who uploaded has changed the soundtrack by all accounts (music in there from The DaVinci Code...) but it doesn't detract from the episode, and is actually beneficial in parts (apart from the weepy piano music during the slushy bits.) As for omega..... sorry mate. SJW.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:40 a.m. CST

    ooooh, Sam, sounds like we'll actually get the Question, then

    by DoctorTom

    unless the 'and when it stares you in the face' bit is teasing for the next season (which I doubt). I suspect that they actually do find the Question and it shatters time, or at least stops it (evidence for the former - Emperor Churchill's Mastodon and dinosaurs, slight chance of the latter based on the Frozen Time title for the Confidential). <br> I suspect that there will still be repercussions from all this going into the next season.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:41 a.m. CST

    More infernal rumours regarding episode 13....(theoretical spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig that of fucking space pirates collecting Dalek eye-stalks!!!! COULD be fun if true!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:43 a.m. CST

    doctom/horn...tthanks for the tip regarding Nemesis and Ghost Light.

    by sam jacksons wig

    I will definately keep Nemesis for later as i don't want to fuck up the goodwill I am building (slowly) towards McCoy!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:44 a.m. CST

    Daleks - Squidbillies gone to the Dark Side.

    by Perigee

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:49 a.m. CST

    perigee - agree about older Amy....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...that is the last we should see of her. I can't remember who mentioned this about one of my former posts, but it was the YOUNG Amy I was talking about in connection with Kovarian, not the OLDER Amy. I thought I made that clear for everyone, so accept my apologies if there was any confusion!! To bring her back would cheapen the effect of the sacrifice made on both her and Rorys part. It was sublime- let's keep it that way!!!

  • Remember when they showed the action figures earlier and they were showing a young Amelia action figure? There were people saying that it was just a holdover from season 5 that they finally got around to. Now, after Let's Kill Hitler, we see that the figure actually was appropriate for season 6, either as part of the flashbacks to young Amelia and the younger Mels, or as the Voice Interface in the TARDIS looking like Amelia. <br> Oh, and the Underground Toys website is talking about 4" talking mini-plushes - Red Dalek, Blue Dalek, TARDIS (with working light) and Cyberman

  • I suspect it will be the Black Spot space pirates, but there's always hope that we'll see Absalom Daak - Dalek Killer introduced into the tv show proper.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:54 a.m. CST

    DocTom/V'Shael- timestreams....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..they did it again in the Five Doctors, did they not? And with apparent ease, back to the Gallifreyan Death Zone in order to resurrect Rassilon. Here, there wasn't really a blip in the timestreams and no major affects because of it- simply all five Docs returning once they had completed their mission and unearthed the traitor.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:56 a.m. CST

    Sam, I hope you mean young Amy as opposed to young Amelia

    by DoctorTom

    seeing young Amelia killing Kovarian might be pushing things a bit... <br> I agree that bringing her back might cheapen the sacrifice she made. On the other hand, what she did still stands (she wouldn't know that she'd live), and if they did bring her back I would expect them to do something that wouldn't end up cheapening what we saw.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Well, Sam, the problem with the Three Doctors and the Five Doctors

    by DoctorTom

    is that every Doctor after the first should be remembering what had happened - which would tend to short circuit things. Picture how The Five Doctors might have gone: <br> Troughton, Pertwee and Davison Doctors, on arriving on Gallifrey: Aha! Borusa did this! Bugger trying to go into Rassilon's tomb, we'll just grab Borusa, take his shortcut, and take him straight to Rassilon's coffin itself! <br> Pertwee: And then I can ask the Time Lords if they're out of their minds trying to cut a deal with that old jackanapes, the Master! <br> Hartnel: So, erm, have you boys got the situation under control? I can't keep climbing these steep hills like a billy goat. Besides, these hills are too steep for me to keep climbing. <br> Davison: Yes, sir. Just stay here and you can have some tea. Tegan, Turlough, can you go fetch him some? <br> Tegan (cross voice): Doctor... <br> Davison (exasperated): Tegan, just trust me on this. You don't want him riled up. Besides, you'll be better off here. The last time you were on Gallifrey was with that Arc of Infinity business, and you know what a disaster that was (turns to look directly into camera).

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 12:20 p.m. CST

    Arthur Darvill interview

    by DoctorTom has an interview with Arthur Darvill. Warning: there is a bit of a spoiler for Episode 12 in there (though this spoiler has been out there before, so anyone who's seen spoiler pictures for the episode won't really pick up anything new here)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    doctortom -

    by sam jacksons wig

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Excellent stuff!! One thing that just does not sit well with me regarding 5 Docs- why is the 1st doc portrayed as the all-knowing wise one when it should be Davi(d)son (Horn!!!!!) that is? By far the most entertaining of them all was Troughton!!! c heers for the darvill link!!!

  • The whole time line story was pretty smart but the chemistry between Gillan and 'Rory' is pretty flat. They say they love each other but personally don't feel it between the actors so I wasn't invested the drama all that much.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Sam - it's all apparent agist

    by DoctorTom

    The first Doctor looks the oldest so OBVIOUSLY he must be the wisest..... <br> Actually I think it's because he's the touchiest and the others just don't want to risk upsetting him, so they humor him. <br> Note that we never got a Colin Baker - William Hartnell faceoff: The Battle of the Egos. Two Egos enter the steel cage, only one ego leaves. It would have been epic. <br> Actually, Matt Smith should be the wisest of them now. <br> Unless, there were things that the first Doctor knew that he deliberately suppressed from his future regenerations, and although the future regenerations don't know what it is, they know that there are things the Hartnell Doctor knows about that they don't. (And if this is true, maybe some of the forbidden knowledge leaked out again for the McCoy Doctor to access?)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:32 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb, re: school and re: vidya games

    by Hideo Kojima

    wow I never realized Canada was like that until recently, I guess you learn something new every day.. ICO is great... looking forward to the HD remasters so I can play Shadow of the Colossus again with much more agreeable framerate! and I said this before but I think GlaDOS vs the Doctor would make for epic banter... I wish there was a good Doctor Who game that wasn't rubbish. I'm imagining something like Fallout 3/New Vegas mixed w/ Star Control 2.

  • You guys are great. Thanks for the convo & answers!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST

    perigee--NEW Squidbillies--S 5 starts TONIGHT @ 11:45 EST

    by batmancw

    Just in case you weren't aware. I LOVE this show & was thrilled to see that they did/are doing S5. I Live off of 575 in GA, just South of where the mythical "Dougal County" lies, so it has that extra bit of funniness to it for me.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    btw, possible plot hole re: the big River Song reveal before

    by TheSeeker7

    I actually realized this a couple weeks ago, but forgot to bring it up in here during all the chatter yesterday. Okay you guys tell me if I've got something wrong here.<br> <br> From "Let's Kill Hitler", we appear to be given confirmation from Mels/River that a previous incarnation of her was as a little girl, she regenerated from that little girl right in the middle of Manhattan. Which means, the mystery little girl stuck in the astronaut outfit back in the 2 part season opener, that in fact was a younger River Song (as many fans even speculated at the time), right? It was one of her previous regenerations.<br> <br> But so then here's my problem -- while sure, River and the Doctor keep meeting out of order over the years, River is still perfectly aware of HER OWN past, and so why didn't River as we saw her in the 2 part opener realize the little girl they were all dealing with was a previous version of her?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    @Sam - It must be ages since you've seen the

    by V'Shael

    Five Doctors. It wasn't with apparent ease. Almost shut the planet down, and they still didn't have the energy reserves to grab the 4th Doctor.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    @DoctorTom - Paradox engine.

    by V'Shael

    True, but at the cost of being able to travel anywhere in time and space, if I remember rightly.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:12 p.m. CST

    @TheSeeker - Well, we don't KNOW that it was Mels

    by V'Shael

    We just know she said something like *The last time I tried this, I ended up as a toddler in New York* or something to that effect. But yes, it's a virtual certainty that the girl we saw was an earlier Mels/River. So there are several possibilities. 1) River has her memories suppressed/deleted at some point. 2) River was pretending she didn't know, to avoid any possible paradoxes (spoilers) where people learned things about her past (their future) before they were supposed to. 3) The River we saw wasn't the grown up version of that child etc... I'm sure there are other possibilities. I'm also sure it will be addressed.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:22 p.m. CST

    theseeker7-your question

    by batmancw

    I've wondered the same thing, and perhaps the comment the newly regened Mels into River made about--that time being a bit of a blur or jumble--that's NOT the actual quote, but it was something along those lines to suggest she didn't remember a lot of the details of her captivity. MAYBE that was inserted to explain that possible "lapse" in memory. Upon re watching DOTM I remember thinking that IF the young girl was Melody, then why didn't she reveal herself after escaping the suit in the creepy orphanage & then realized she would already have been subjected to years of "brainwashing" to believe the Doctor and companions were VERY dangerous people. It also seems odd to me that IF River had known it was her in the suit that: 1) She wouldn't have tried to interfere in order to save the Doctor despite his instruction not to, as she has shown that SHE will do what she believes is best at times (TFOTD) even if it contradicts the Doctor's orders and saves his life & as an adult she CERTAINLY knows rule #1--The Doctor Lies 2) She seemed genuinely shocked about the 3rd blast that halted the Doctor's regeneration 3) She would try to shoot "herself" after it was too late to prevent the Doctor's killing. I, & I'm thinking, MOST? of us, hadn't guessed that it was likely Melody in the suit as that was at the very beginning of TIA, and we didn't even know Amy was pregnant yet. That said, IF SHE(River) remembered, she would have known she was wasting her time shooting at herself & possibly creating a paradox had she been successful in killing her younger self & causing herself to regenerate ahead of what had already happened in her (River's) past. Just typing that last paragraph hurt my head, so I think I'll go re watch last night's episode now. Cheers to all!

  • I doubt it would take as much energy to do it for one person. Whether the Doctor actually could have done it, maybe or maybe not. The Doctor wasn't really keen on the older Amy at all, so we won't know if he was lying before or lying at the end to Rory about not being able to do it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST

    ah, Batmancw - you might be making a faulty assumption

    by DoctorTom

    You're assuming that the young Melody we saw in the suit in Florida in 1969 and whoever is in the astronaut suit in 2011 is the same person. It could very well be River, and that's what we're being led to believe, but most of us think that's a little too straightforward. <br> There's also the point I brought up in Let's Kill Hitler that if Melody had killed the Doctor in 2011 and later became Mels, why is Mels trying to kill the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler, given she's already killed him? She'd be creating a paradox by killing him at that point.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST

    @Doctor Tom - Well, I see what you mean

    by V'Shael

    but I prefer to think of it in terms of supporting a paradox, not in terms of how many individuals can live while the paradox is sustained. So while the Doctor may have been able to keep old Amy alive, he would have had to do what the Master did. Transform the TARDIS into a paradox engine, making it unable to travel anywhere else. Kind of defeating the purpose of saving her.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Not necessarily, v'shael

    by DoctorTom

    Just having the two points of the timestreams together interacting is a paradox. Which would mean that you would also have the same paradox with the two Amys in Time/Space, which the TARDIS seemed to cope with perfectly fine.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    @DoctorTom - Now there we don't agree...

    by V'Shael

    I think in Time/Space, causality wasn't violated. There was no logical paradox in bringing two Amys together, because the younger one was always going to become the older one.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    I'm going to be awkward

    by LarkStew

    And admit I didn't like it that much. I'm getting a bit tired of every episode either Amy or Rory being faced with certain death allowing the other one to spend ten minutes declaring their undying love. Feels like that's happened every episode this season so far. And when old Amy was outside the Tardis door saying, don't let me in... look, if you're that worried, just walk away and stop tormenting poor Rory. And why didn't old Amy have at least a few grey hairs? And while I'm here I wish the Doctor would calm down a bit and show us how intelligent and wise he is by actually saying something intelligent and wise rather than just something vague about wibbly wobbly timey wimey. That sounds like something I would have written in school when I was 10. Oh and can we just have one or two ideas per episode that are explored properly rather than a new idea every minute as if you're afraid to explain anything properly. Although having said that, the central idea of The Girl Who Waited was pretty good. Ok I'll shut up now.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:28 p.m. CST

    v'shael - I don't think the causality matters

    by DoctorTom

    If you get down to it, having 5 minutes in the future Amy coming through and giving them the information does create a paradox with causality - where did the information first come from? <br> Usually they try waving around the Blinovitch limitation effect to explain things except when they don't (Amy lifting young Amelia's hair in The Big Bang not causing the same spark of temporal energy that the Doctor's two sonic screwdrivers showed when they touched.) <br> I think the explanation for Amy being around in the Big Bang when Amelia disappeared would still apply to the old Amy in The Girl Who Waited - she's an anomaly. The TARDIS hasn't had a problem with that before unless you're a living fixed point in spacetime like Jack.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:32 p.m. CST

    @doctortom--good points

    by batmancw

    I agree that it's a bit too straightforward. In that particular response I was attempting to answer seeker 7's question in the context of "if it WAS River/Melody in the suit then why didn't she know it" and I got so caught up in trying to write a sensible answer that i forgot to mention that I really don't think it's Melody in the spacesuit. I had the same thought re: LKH, and chalked it up to her memories of that time being faulty IF , it was in fact, an iteration of her in the suit. That said, like yourself & others, I think Moffat has something else up his sleeve. Thanks again for bouncing some ideas around.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:40 p.m. CST

    Young Amelia in the Big Bang

    by V'Shael

    and our Amy are clearly not the same person at two different points in their timestream. Amelia grew up in a world without stars. Amy didn't.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 3:53 p.m. CST

    Sam -- you are welcome with McCoy, and is it Gatis?

    by HornOrSilk

    That would be interesting... maybe it will be just a quick nod to Curse of Fenric, though.. who knows.. it's hard to guess this one.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:22 p.m. CST

    Rewatched trailer

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, well, there we have a chess sequence. The Viking connection to it is interesting, because if nothing else, I'm sure someone wants us to think Fenric, if it isn't. What is also interesting is the piece which is glowing..

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    by glenn_the_frog

    One thing I thought was interesting was, it was very similar to the mindgame that the tardis possessing monster played on Amy during "The Doctor's Wife." Only the other way around this time, with Amy being the wait-ee. Very consistent theme with those two of one of them being left behind while the other does things without them. From the Doctor whisking Amy away before her wedding to have weeks of adventures, to Centuriun Rory waiting 2000 years... its something that keeps happening with them.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:38 p.m. CST

    Amy paradox

    by glenn_the_frog

    When it comes to two ersions of the same person interacting with themself.... There's "doing what you always did" and then there's "not doing what you always did". You go back in time, and you save your father from being killed in an accident. Suddenly, your entire history changes, you no longer have a reason to save your father, and you're a paradox and the Langolier things start trying to eat you. Because its a paradox. Your undoing what happened to you before, so the current you can't exist. Alternatively. A girl runs up to you on the street, hands you a package and says "hey, you're going to do this in the near future, get to it." You check out the package, and then record a 2 minute video warning about angels, and then go back 10 years to incorporate it into every dvd that girl owns. And then later, you fall into the very trap set by the angels... that you already set up a way out of. You're doing what you always did, so its okay. No paradox. Don't Blink incorporated the term "wibbly wobbly timey wimey" and a lot of people seem to dismiss that as being a cheat. But its not. Its just a quick way of saying "These events happened out of order, differently between other people, but they always happened so it'll work together fine." Wibbly wobbly is NOT an excuse for confliciting paradox, its an explanation for predestination and overlapping timelines. Two different things. (ANd of course, rewriting a persons history in real time as in the most recent Christmas special is a third thing entirely... but thats basically erasing the current future by changing the past.)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST

    @Glenn_the_frog - Very nicely explained.

    by V'Shael

    Which Gallifreyan Academy did you graduate from? :)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:14 p.m. CST

    GREAT, GREAT, GREAT Episode! But NOT the BEST! For me, at least...

    by wtriker1701

    There's me missing David Tennant's ever PRESENT, mostly SCREAMING, mostly RUNNING. Here we have that Matt Smith Doctor almost DOING NOTHING THAN LOOKING GUILTY. No, I don't say I didn't love the episdoe, please don't get me wrong. But still I miss this Tennant Doctor - with this episode more than ever, heck, I even miss Eccleston... This was TOO LESS DOCTOR, friends, too less. Yes, Matt Smith is a great Doctor! But a Raggedy Man? Not so much. That was Tennant! HE would have been Amy's Raggedy Man! Sorry, I feel much love for this episode, but I, once more, feel, that I MISS David Tennant's Doctor Who. This story would have worked to be Amy centric AND Doctor centric... nut not this way. The Fall for our Doctor didn't have THAT much impact as it would have been with EVER trying, NEVER letting go of ANYTHING, or AMYTHING! Sorry, that I can't tell you, I love this story as much as I love THE GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE... or the SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY! The chemistry Alex Kingston and David Tennant had was UNIQUE. They surely should have had much more screen time... I love The Girl Who Waited... but it sorely reminds me, how much I miss the ever Doctor centric episodes of David Tennant... Please, don't be angry with me... but those are the emotions that had me watch the Silence 2-parter AND The Empty Child 2-parter once again just to see, how much I cling onto Moffat's interpretation of Doctor Who. (And YES, I am aware that THIS story was written by Tom Macrae!)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:17 p.m. CST

    Bow Ties are COOL and BLUE in The Sarah Jane Adventures...

    by wtriker1701

    So, WHICH Doctor visited her? The one being 1108 years old or someone being about 200 years younger...? Has this question already benn answered? I guess... NOT!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:18 p.m. CST

    been instead of benn

    by wtriker1701

    Stupid keyboard of mine... or booze...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    I thought this was the Doctor-lite episode

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember, we often get one a year. This was it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:18 p.m. CST

    A surprise episode.

    by shutupfanboy

    I thought this one would be a lot of silly crap and in turned into one of the better episodes of the season. Its nice to see the cold bastard of the Doctor back with Smith. Rory calling him out at times was a nice touch of their first meeting where the tension was high. I really loved how they just ended the episode as well. So far, the best episode of part 2 of season sixth.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:38 p.m. CST

    How does a kiss-o-gram make a sonic?

    by Perigee

    She never went to college. She's not old enough to have an bachelors degree if she had. Where did she get a katana? More weird bleeding through? I dunno.

  • I could be wrong, though. <br> Hopefully he doesn't spend most of the episode stuck in one room as a clown.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:43 p.m. CST

    perigee - Amy making a sonic

    by DoctorTom

    From what I gathered, she figured out how to do that stuff from the Interface, after she learned how to hack into it. Presumably she found a clever way to get the information so that she could hack it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:47 p.m. CST

    doctortom I admit, I didn't see confidential

    by HornOrSilk

    So I don't know.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:47 p.m. CST

    DoctorTom - How does a kissogram hack an alien interface?

    by Perigee

    I think, if you take a trip through Amy's room with River you won't even find a computer.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:48 p.m. CST

    More thoughts of the season -- Let's not forget Christmas

    by HornOrSilk

    And its Silence song and the Doctor rewriting time.. Anything in all of that?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:50 p.m. CST

    It could just be story economics

    by Perigee

    But Rory - not Amy - is the one who's always under the hood of stuff; amy sits on the stairs of the TARDIS and cracks her gum. As with everyone here, on any clue, I tend to read more into things than there is, but this is pretty weird.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Perigee - she had 36 years...

    by DoctorTom

    ...and nothing to do but dodge handbots and talk to the interface. Presumably she eventually tricked it into essentially giving her administrator priveleges. Or during all that time she found where the computer system was and found a key that you can turn in a console to grant you administrator priveleged, and asked the interface questions to help guide her through making the changes.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:03 p.m. CST

    Good afternoon DocBackers!

    by gotilk

    Hope your day sees you well. We are "The Fans Who Waited". Love ya all.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:21 p.m. CST


    by PlasticBallAndChain

    Still not enough Doctor this season...and when he talks it's faster than a teenage girl...this ep was not bad for an Outer Limits

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    I think human beings can do some remarkable things if they are forced to do them for purposes of survival. It can lead to inventiveness, criminal-type thinking, extreme or dangerous behaviour, etc. I wasn't that surprised when Amy turned into an intergalactic Kevin Mitnick. In a way, she really had to. And she very well could have received training from the interface. Amy Pond programming in machine language or FORTRAN does seem like a tiny bit of a stretch, BUT recall she had ... what was it?... 39 years? 35? I know a guy who picked up smalltalk (squeek?) in a couple of months. And he was no super-genius, only knew BASIC. And hardware experts?? I poop 'em.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:23 p.m. CST

    Those languages....

    by gotilk

    they age me.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:24 p.m. CST

    Alternate title....

    by gotilk

    *The girl who waited (again) for the boy who waited.*

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:31 p.m. CST


    by PlasticBallAndChain

    Oh, and Amy Pond cutting down the goofy robots with her sword was the equivalent of girly-throwing or girly-pushups. Egad, somebody coulda told her she looked corny.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:32 p.m. CST

    and for the dialect appreciation society....

    by gotilk

    *The Girl Wot Waited*

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:33 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    36 years. My bad.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:36 p.m. CST

    I did not expect to see fancy swords(wo)manship

    by gotilk

    UTILITY not showiness. She did what was needed to ruin those slow, non-combat-trained bots. I thought it looked about right.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:42 p.m. CST

    Still not buying it.

    by Perigee

    You could chuck Ray Kurzweil, Thomas Dolby, John Nash, Thomas Edison and Jack Kilby all on a desert island for 50 years, and they aren't going to come up with a sonic screwdriver. DARPA's version of a sonic screwdriver is called a battering ram. As to the interface, a sonic isn't something you buy at any Woolworths in the universe; there's a presumption that the Interface knows what one is and how to make one, and that seems slim. As to making one through a descriptor, what does Amy - or any of us - know about how to describe the working nature of a sonic? "You point it, and it buzzes, and it does stuff you want it to do..." Except on wood, if that helps. Of course, if you want to ignore all that, we still have the question of a Japanese katana - did Amy also decide to become Hattori Hanzo in her spare time, while she ran around in patchwork armor? I can accept that it is just something we have to accept for story's sake, but with Churchill coming soon, I am also willing to see an amount of anomaly peeking through.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 7:43 p.m. CST


    by PlasticBallAndChain

    sure thing, whatever helps you sleep at night o_0...I say she looked like she was swinging at a pinata...and missing!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:13 p.m. CST

    felt like it was doc who channeling TNG inner light

    by palewook

    and i had no problem with that, loved the episode.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:21 p.m. CST

    Okay, perigee

    by DoctorTom

    No, the sonic isn't something you buy at Woolworth's. And it's not necessarily something that Ray Kurzweil, Thomas Dolby, John Nash, Thomas Edison and Jack Kilby all on a desert island for 50 years wouldn't invent. <br> It *would* be relatively easy, though, if you had access to a computer that had diagrams, schematics and step-by-step building guides for a sonic screwdriver. <br> You have to accept either she got the information from the Interface, or the Doctor had planted the information in her head (possibly giving more information than he expected when he left the psychic message in her head in The Big Bang). I'm not willing to believe it's the Doctor, though. <br> I also don't think it's yet another ganger of Amy that somehow got the information on sonics because the Doctor had given the Flesh the information. There hadn't really been a good onscreen moment for there to have been a swap, and I don't see pulling the offscreen swap for Amy twice. And, that was the real Amy that got picked up in A Good Man Goes To War. Remember how the baby had the bad reaction to the TARDIS? It was reacting to the anti-ganger shields the Doctor had been putting up. Amy had no such reaction.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:23 p.m. CST

    good evening, gotilk!

    by DoctorTom

    Nice to see you back! <br> Another title: The Girl Who Got Stuck in The Airport Lounge For 36 Years.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:26 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Good to see you too... and ROFL!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:26 p.m. CST

    There are many demons that keep me awake at night.

    by gotilk

    ...but Amy's quality of swordplay is thankfully not one of them.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:28 p.m. CST

    I also imagine that a computer and interface

    by gotilk

    that can manifest gardens, or relocate/reproduce roller coaster lands can also replicate a sword. These quibbles are weak. No offense.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:31 p.m. CST

    I also do not need to be Toshiro Mifune to take out

    by gotilk

    a poor man's slow R2-D2 running a medical program.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:32 p.m. CST

    and I still say

    by gotilk

    MILFAmy was hot.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 8:50 p.m. CST

    Where is everyone?

    by gotilk

    *dodges tumbleweed*

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:09 p.m. CST

    Horn- it certainly looks like him to me......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..especially around the eyes, which is the big tell as heavy prosthetics are hiding most other features. The sneer is certainly his "raison d'etre"- he does that kind of thing ALL the time from Sherlock, to League of Gentlemen. I may be wrong as it was just a guess, but I am sure we will find out in a couple of weeks and I shall be vindicated!!!! :))

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:16 p.m. CST

    perigee... to answer your questions:

    by sam jacksons wig

    She got a katana from batmanwc. He still doesn't know it yet!!! She made the sonic screwdriver after watching a loop of the A-Team for 36 years. Apparently she still says "I aint gettin' on no plane!" in her sleep.... And she got her hair cut so it was the same style, colour and length by the Nicky Clarke/Vidal Sassoon room to the left of the foyer. (I know you didn't ask that!!) SJW :))

  • ..or, we simply have more posts than them, but just saying that would be boring.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:21 p.m. CST

    Milfamy is also a time traveller?

    by veteran_of_mu

    How many time travelling races have we got now? Time Lords Daleks Time Agents Weeping Angels Silents Teselectas Applappuchians ... and possibly the GangerDoc ... Which one of those races would not have a clear and present interest in working with Milfamy - who really, really hates the Doc? I mean this girl's wangled direct access to a power station full of time engines and she was working on them using a Sonic she learned to build from the interface that was itself very similar to the Doc's voice interface ... Milfamy plainly understands a lot about temporal engineering now. In fact it's quite possible that the Doc locking onto the wrong time stream was because of what Milfamy had been doing to that time stream ... for reasons we probably can't understand at this time ... Timey wimey indeed! Perhaps the universe abhors the vacuum left when the Time Lords were locked out. So now it's evolving a new crop of 'em.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:22 p.m. CST

    4.20 AM here in the UK, been up since 3 am....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....eyes look like dracula has vomited into them. See you later, DocBackers!!!

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:26 p.m. CST

    V';shael- watched it about a year ago....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and it looked so bloody easy- send wibbly wobbly vortex thing to pick up docs from different points in time. Also, one begs the question - if it is so dangerous, then (apart from storyline mechanics to explain their presence all at once) WHY do it???? And since, there have been no lasting repercussions within canon because of keep doing this (if my hazy memory serves me correctly), so again- is it that terrible a thing to do? Hope you are well mate!! SJW.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:28 p.m. CST

    Perhaps the universe abhors the vacuum left

    by gotilk

    Now there's an interesting theory. I could see that. And enjoy it.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:28 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    We poop 'em.

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 10:49 p.m. CST

    I hope *MILFamy* sticks.

    by gotilk


  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:04 p.m. CST

    44:20... mistake or something else?

    by tollfreesuicide

    At that shot at approximately 44:20 (when Amy is passed out in the TARDIS with Rory and the Doctor talking), watch the right side of the frame. A white-shirted shoulder clearly moves into frame. Goof? Then again, that's a pretty big mistake for someone filming not to notice immediately. Plus remember the mistake with the Doctor's missing coat last season... Has anyone mentioned this yet?

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:11 p.m. CST

    tollfreesuicide GOOD eye....

    by gotilk

    Just watched it and can confirm... then the Doc says *there she is*. So I'm jumping on the *reading too much into things* bandwagon now as well. Hmmmm!! (scratches chin)

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:40 p.m. CST

    It's the Amy and Rory show!!!!!

    by FeralAngel

    With their very special guest star...DOCTOR WHO! Yaayayyyyyyy!!!! Meh...'m kinda through with Who right me when it gets back to the Doctor and Amy, and Rory and River get offed in gory and spectacular ways...

  • Sept. 11, 2011, 11:55 p.m. CST

    Excellent Episode.

    by proper

    The Bit With The Lipstick Spoke Many Words.To Sunspot_Mike - We Always Held Victory It's Being Patient & Waiting For The Rest Of The World To Catch Up Which Is The Key :> :> :>.What A Great Era This Is....Have A Good Week Everybody.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:10 a.m. CST

    Two lazy episodes in a row.

    by thedarklingthrush

    It's like they're producing first drafts.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:50 a.m. CST

    Aint It Slow

    by Andrew Greening

    Guys While not exactly who related, this piece of news has just saddened me and it is either not important for Harry or just to early in the US Andy Whitfield has died aged just 39 The Spartacus actor died of Non Hodgkins Lymphoma yesterday (Sunday) in the arms of his wife Just thought I would let everyone know about this one Cheers all

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:59 a.m. CST

    RIP Spartacus

    by Evilmeister

    By Jupiters cock I'll miss you

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:10 a.m. CST

    As a result of a shonky internet connection

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I've once again not contributed much to this Docback since Saturday a.m., so I thought I'd add my 2 cents here. As I am fundamentally a heartless misanthrope, the whole 'what will Rory do?' thing didn't really hit for me; that said, though, Darvill was terrific, and since I've always been sold on Amy, I didn't see much beyond what I would have already expected from Ms Gillan. And as I ended up watching the ep via smartphone, I couldn't tell you how good the make-up was... The ep did have me wondering about the logic of the whole set up, mind, inasmuch what possible rational could there have been for the facility to have assumed that quarantine was appropriate for Amy? This is why I believe we're doubtless seeing a Rebel Flesh / manipulative Doctor thing again. ("I dunno - press a button.") And, unlike everyone else, possibly, I'm interpreting the lipstick scene differently; Amy struck me as being quite angry at the start of that scene, and the history of lipstick so far in this series has very much not been romantic, so how can we be certain this wasn't a continuation of that? I did find myself asking, 'Why would Amy have been carrying lipstick when she couldn't even remember her phone? And where did the lipstick come from? The same place as her technical knowledge perhaps? Or her katana? And why has the Doctor never given her a universal roaming phone, either; that's... suspicious? I do agree with the red/green thing, mentioned *ages* ago - isn't red meant to be a bit camp; all that dancing? And speaking of camp, even for this heartless s.o.b there was still plenty for me to enjoy in the ep, and the amount of visual subversion was quite lovely - the robot Rory being all smiley in the scene when Darvill was being his most emotive was excellent, as was the Mona Lisa having her head replaced by that of a further robot. And the bombastic music at the bit where Amy was totally failing the Bechdel test - that was super. Also, all this talk of Fenric - not buying it. No no no no no. What we actually have here - well, we've got the Mona Lisa, probably a copy of; we've got the set up of an alien movement that has been manipulating mankind's history since the get-go; we've got cracks in time; what we've got is the return of Scaroth, ladies and gents... No, I don't believe it either.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:10 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I think we are all on different times/schedules. alas.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:10 a.m. CST

    Sam - we shall see, you are probably right

    by HornOrSilk

    And even if he is not Fenric, it's easy to understand why one could think he is seeing that image with a chess set..

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:12 a.m. CST

    Time Travelling Species

    by HornOrSilk

    I think we must understand what differentiates a Time Lord is they are, in many ways, one with the Vortex, able to interact with a multitude of possibilities and not be harmed by them in a way the others would be. The Time Lord lives on time not stumbling around in it.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:17 a.m. CST

    And I also agree it was absurd in the Five Doctors

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    that the first Doctor was the wisest. What was *that* all about? I do like the idea of the First Doctor having blocked off part of his memory, though - that's a piece of retcon that could work wonders, although it's a bit Zaphod Beeblebrox...

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:24 a.m. CST


    by veteran_of_mu

    At the start of TGWW the Doc approaches the time lens, sees Amy, and then ... HE PRESSES THE GREEN BUTTON. The one on the Lens. Amy goes into fast time and then HE PRESSES IT AGAIN. Now maybe he's just experimenting with it. Maybe this planet of Appleappuchia, which he's been to before, which he knows well enough to know the anatomy, the physiology, the cultural proclivities and the technology, has developed time lenses since his last visit, and he doesn't know what the buttons on them do. Maybe he just thought pressing the green button would be something to try for fun. Maybe it's just a whimsical urge. Twice. BUT ... This is the Doctor. If he regularly pressed buttons which did things he didn't know about, he'd never have lived to be 900 or 1100 or even 100. THEREFORE, This Doctor knew what the button was going to do. He knew exactly where he was taking Amy and Rory and what he was going to do to them there. CONCLUSION The Doctor with the Red Tie isn't just a liar. He's a Fucking Evil Bastard. COROLLARY Milfamy was right to hate him. Handsome Rory was right to resign. They are travelling with the Dream Lord in the GangerDoc body, and the purpose of this bugger is to turn the two of them absolutely resolutely and irrevocably into Enemies Of The Doctor. I'm just going to say it. You can laugh at me and point fingers at me. You can talk about Fenric and Omega and Amy's House being the TARDIS. Well, okay, fuck you all. This guy is the Valeyard. I'm calling you out, MOV. Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me my Doctor, The Doctor, lies. Because I don't believe it. And I don't believe Him.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:26 a.m. CST

    The Doctor Tells The Truth

    by veteran_of_mu

    Felt really good to say that. The Valeyard Lies!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:32 a.m. CST

    And one more thought, whilst I'm here

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Doctor not enjoying wine:,r:1,s:0&tx=106&ty=40 Doctor enjoying wine:,r:1,s:0&biw=1309&bih=429 So, erm, yeah.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:38 a.m. CST

    Apologies for the "fuck you all"

    by veteran_of_mu

    That was too disrespectful for a docback. My bad.

  • I'm going to have dismiss the whole ganger/dream lord / Valeyard thing. That said, I will have to go back and watch the pressing of the green button thing. In order for the accelerated Amy to talk in real-time with the Doctor and Rory, either their time has to be sped up as well, or Amys has to be artificially slowed down. Without going back to check it, I suspect the buttons have something to do with that.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Great episode!

    by Fuck The Napkin

    Used an element I always wanted to see in a time-travel video game I imagined... the portable 'window' to the same place at another time. Thought it was great having two versions of the same person at different times having to work together to save both of them - exactly the sort of wonderful, inventive time-travel concept I love, which was sadly lacking from pre-Moffat Doctor Who. Amy and Rory were both brilliant too - especially Amy, who I don't really have a great deal of time for normally due to lots of pouting and shouting and schizophrenic jumps of character. As the old version Karen Gillan did a brilliant job - I'd rather have seen her board the Tardis. And as somebody else pointed out, the 'old' makeup was infinitely better than in the multi-million-pound Watchmen movie. Great work. Another 'Doctor-lite' episode that was better than most 'Doctor-heavy' ones. Shows that using the Doctor wisely when he's needed is often more enjoyable than having him run around shouting just for the hell of it.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 7:41 a.m. CST

    Noticed Something in the Ganger Episode.... Spoiler

    by ComicGuru

    I noticed that at the very end of th episode we see the Doctor drop the gangers off to give evidence outside a very large door to a corporate building. The graphics on the door look like an updated Telos Cyberman Logo with the mouth removed. Anyone noticed that?

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    @v'shael - Watches, Time Lens, Red & Green Buttons

    by veteran_of_mu

    First, a question. Both Amy and Rory wear watches in this episode. Why would they do that? And has anyone seen them wear watches in other episodes? After Amy loses her phone and the Doc tells her where it is [hmm.] Amy winds up going with the red waterfall room. No doubt because of her hair. Doc presses green button which goes "squeee ..." and the green button is lit. Amy's image appears and they converse. Image shudders a bit possibly due to what the Doc is doing with his sonic. Amy panics thinking she will lose contact. Then you don't see the Doc's hands so you don't know what he's doing. But Amy speeds up dramatically. Theres's some sleight of hand-bot (get it?) and the next time you see the buttons the RED one is lit. The Doc presses it [again] and Amy slows down again. Doc says, "It's okay I've got you you're fine" and brandishes the Sonic. Then there's more interference and some screaming and the titles. Then Amy appears to be waiting for the interference to go away. The doc says "gotcha" and stops sonicing. Voila, clear picture. Doc says he "stabilised" it. Green button is glowing again the entire time they talk. The Doc removes the time lens and runs into the TARDIS with it, his fingers ON THE BUTTONS. No lights are showing on the Lens until it is plugged in, but there is a digital clock we've never seen before prominently flicking through numbers very quickly indeed. And an old magtape rolling. Recording or playing? Could the time lens be as simple as ... RED means record and GREEN means playback? When the lights on the lens buttons return after the sparks they are prominently RED. Doc tells Rory he can't go into 2 Streams because Chen7 will kill him "With No Regeneration". Yet another poison that kills the Doc without regeneration? Hmm. When the Doc was rummaging for specs in his toolbox he touches a curious belt with studs and wires, then sets it aside as he hands the Rorycam to Rory. Camera returns to the digital clock flicking very quickly through numbers ... Amy interacts with Appleappuchia. When the scene returns to the TARDIS we're watching the digital clock zooming again ... no question the Doc knows how fast time is passing through the lens. And he's laughing! Rory exits the TARDIS carrying the time lens attached to the aforementioned leather strap. Presumably the wires in the strap power the lens because you can see by its reflection on its leather sleeve that the red light is STILL glowing. Amy at the gateway. When she steps out into the garden we have a Dream-Lord birdsong queue ... Milfamy saves Rory from a hand-bot. RED light is still lit. Rory checks out Milfamy's goods and remarks that she looks great. She repeats the Doc's line from when Rory was checking out the statue, "Eyes front soldier". Rory holds up the time lens to read Amy's lipstick writing. It's still RED. Dialog with the Doctor and Amy. Then another shot of the old magtape rolling in the TARDIS. Then a shot of the younger Amy crying. Doc says he can hear her. Then Rory can see her through the time lens and the button on the lens has turned prominently and unmistakably GREEN! It's playing back - just like in Blink! Doc's magtape must have recorded every moment of the 36 years, 3 months, 4 days! That bastard knew EXACTLY what he was doing! Rory asks Milfamy to help. She refuses. Time Lens button is RED again. Rory holds up the time lens and, swelp me, presses the buttons. "Look me in the face and say it now". Lens button turns from RED to GREEN and young Amy converses with Milfamy. Amy declares she's going to pull time apart for Rory. Scene cuts back to Doc in the TARDIS. He's hovering over the magtape recorder which is still spinning. He has it rigged up to the Time Rotor with wires. Rory's carrying the Time Lens again and it's RED again. Now the Doc is wearing a watch too! Has anyone ever seen the Doc wear a watch before? Freaky! We see young Amy through the Lens which is green again. The Doc has Rory sonic Amy's sonic to "double our power". Gobbledygook or significant? What power do Sonics have in this situation? Doc has Rory jigger the time regulator. Blue into the red, green into the blue, leave the red hanging, don't touch anything yellow. Could it be that this manipulation is the point of the entire adventure? Rory throws lever 3 and both the Time Lens and the magtape explode in sparks. Rory and his wives make their way to the gallery. Rory asks if they can just teleport in. Milfamy says, "it's not a teleport, it's a time jump". Amy objects, "you can't jump within the same time stream". Milfamy looks startled that Amy knows this and says, "Yes". Amy smiles as if this is some kind of relevant response. I'm confused. Milfamy asks Rory how many games of doctors and nurses they've played. Amy ... as a doctor? Hmmm.

  • Putting this out to the assorted group--One of the reasons, aside from what I read and the symbols @ Demon's Run, that I have stuck with the thought that Omega may be the hidden villain is that SOMEONE took control of the Tardis on at least 2 occasions last year & it seems to me it would make the most sense that it would be another Time Lord. There was also the fact that the Church was able to broadcast Amy's "ganger" signal into the Tardis no matter where it was in time and space, which shouldn't be possible either. That said, MANY of you are clearly more "steeped" in Whovian history than I am, so what are your thoughts? IS that something that Fenric Could do? The Daleks? Cybermen? The referenced, but as yet unseen Papal Mainframe? I think it's too early for a return of The Master, but I imagine he could probably devise a way to do so. Obviously, Moffat can explain it however he wants, but since we tend to discuss the show as though it should make some type of logical sense despite the conundrums & possible paradoxes of time travel, I'd appreciate the thoughts of the group.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST

    Where's my damn Katana?

    by batmancw

    Good One SJW. Actually, I just figured it was one of the artifacts at the facility. They had the Mona Lisa, so why not a katana?

  • Is that something X could do... Fenric? Absolutely, though he doesn't tend to use technology in that fashion. The Daleks? At the height of their power during the Time War? Easily. As a bunch of recently regenerated things from VotD ? I'd have my doubts. They'd possibly have the know-how, but lack the resources. Could be advisors to the Church, I guess. Cybermen ? No, the cybermen have never mastered access to the Vortex, and have only a very limited exposure to time travel, Time Lords, and the like. The Papal Mainframe? - Unlikely I think, but we know too little to say for sure. We know humans develop crude time travel around the 50th, 51st, 52nd centuries, and even patrol certain segments of their own history. If the Papal Mainframe and the church are from that time period, it's possible they could broadcast the signal into the vortex, I suppose. The Master - He's dead. Until we see proof that he's not.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    @caractacuspotts - I will definitely rewatch the episode

    by V'Shael

    with a paranoid frame of mind and your recent post in hand. But bear in mind, the last time I did this was in the ganger episode, where repeated references to *AND THEN THE RED TIE DOCTOR DOES THIS* and I never saw a single red tie in the entire two parter... :)

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:32 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts- holy rant, batman!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I am in camp "2 Doctors running about" for sure, and have said that from almost the beginning; however, one of them being the Valeyard/Dreamlord/evildoc? I would be more inclined to think that they are both the same person, and through carelessness hurt those around them, not malice of forethought. 2 versions of the doc, one either from a parallel universe or the ganger doc which has become self aware. Remember- the war is being fought with him because of his reputation around the universe and the harm he has caused through protecting time and space, not necessarily because he is an evil doctor. Sometimes it's because of what you don't do rather than what you do. And we all know what a curious litle bunny he can be....."let's go poke it with a stick."

  • ...and the current Doc at the time should have been front and center. Fucked if I would have taken second fiddle (or in his case 5th fiddle) to a dead mans stand in.

  • He's all that & more.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:46 a.m. CST

    @Sam - Guilty as charged. But you tell me ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Have other incarnations of the Doc lied to their companions? I don't recall it. I recall them being honest to a fault, even when it hurt them. I recall Doc 10 repeating his liturgy every episode, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. But [enter nasty event here]. And there's nothing I can do about it." Of course, if Doc 10 could be the Time Lord Victorious, I guess Doc 11 could be the Time Lord Mendacious. But I don't have to buy it. And I don't.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:47 a.m. CST

    Once more the Gods shove cock up arse!!!! Andy Whitfield was only 39....

    by sam jacksons wig year younger than myself and in infinitely better shape. I loved the series and I loved his brooding take on the warrior that became a slave that became a gladiator that became a rebel. Kiss your loved ones tonight and pray to your god for a long and happy life. This one was cut severely short.

  • ..the red and blue tie is absolute nonsense. Nothing in it at all except the Doc changing his tie.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:53 a.m. CST

    The Doctor lying

    by HornOrSilk

    Goes back to the first Doctor. Did he ever intend to go back to Susan? Bwahahahah.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:54 a.m. CST

    It's not different ties

    by HornOrSilk

    It's the different underwear you see with special, Doctor Who 3-d glasses given out during Dimensions in Time. It shows everything. One says "this is a fake" on them.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 9:55 a.m. CST

    Red and blue ....

    by veteran_of_mu

    I readily concede I may just be seeing the effects of different lights on a burgundy tie. Except for a few really obvious changes, which could come down to Matt Smith's mood on the day, I can't prove otherwise. But every time I see that red tie bastard I could just sock him one. :-)

  • ...that is some going!!!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST

    sam with all the good posts, this also means

    by HornOrSilk

    All is forgiven for Rise of the Cybermen (which I didn't think was bad; I like a lot of it, even; people just wanted something they didn't get).

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Doc going back to Susan wasn't a lie

    by veteran_of_mu

    Well he was pretty adamant about the fact that he was leaving. The "one day I shall return" doesn't mean he'll return to visit her personally - perhaps her descendants many generations afterward.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:20 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - the Doc lying??? Yup......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..Sylvester McCoy in Curse of Fenric to Ace, on more than one occasion (and I've just watched it so it is fresh in memory). He lied to her to get her to lose faith in him. He lied to her about the legend. He lied to her when she asked if he was telling her everything. Chris Eccleson lied to Rose to get her out of the way in erm...parting of the ways. The Doc lies...... for good or for ill.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:39 a.m. CST

    2 things I don't get

    by Chopper

    How come Amy doesn't seem to care about the drama surrounding her child anymore. That was a big deal.....then the last 2 episodes they stopped caring. Yea I know these episodes aren't made in chronological order but if you are going to build a huge story arc you can't simply ignore it for 2 episodes. Why is it that Rory seem cool with how it ended? I totally expected him to punch the doctor out at the end but him and Amy seem pretty cool about how things ended. Very strange and sloppy. Episodes like this should be 2 hour mini movies. It did way too much in the 1 hour it was on and breaking it up could have fleshed the story out so much better. Still a great episode and one of my favorites.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    Horn- ROTCM/AOS were not very good at all....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..and I haven't forgiven anyone for them yet!!!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST

    Well I hate to be contrary, but I didn't care for it.

    by ByTor

    So, The Girl Who Waited. That was...disappointing. It seemed like a conflict in search of a story. Like, MacRae thought, ''Imagine if you had to choose between a younger and older version of your love!'' Which is fine, such as it is, but then he tried to force a story around it. The story itself was terribly thin, and boring. The hand-bots were the silliest robots we've seen since the show relaunched; they wouldn't be able to catch a determined tortoise. And a medical facility that is so sophisticated it can beam in wobble-bots wherever needed, but never bothers to check the vital signs of the patient (which would clearly indicate the patient is alien)? Really? And ultimately the conflict itself was a non-conflict, because I have to believe anybody would choose to rescue the younger Amy to avoid her having to suffer the 36 years in the first place. Definitely my least-favorite Moffat-era story, and probably ends up in my bottom 5 of the relaunched series overall.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11 a.m. CST

    Though I will say

    by ByTor

    Amy and Rory were awesome. I do hope this at least quiets anyone who still says Gillan can't act, because she was stunning in the dual role. Shame it was wasted on such a thin story.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I thought there were all kinds of good elements in Rise but I also thought RTD forced some things into it as well which hurt it. But I really enjoy the cyber-conversion process being so brutal (for example).

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:13 a.m. CST

    Powerful episode. But I agree that they seem to have forgotten the baby

    by sunspot_mike

    I loved this one and I thought Karen was amazing. This was my second favorite right behind Day of the Moon, I think. Her MILFAmy makeup was great and she pulled it off extremely well. Tears flowed and the emotions were just perfect. I feel like they should probably have a discussion about their missing child again sometime soon, though. Mels being with them while they were growing up is pretty cool and they did the line about the Doctor saying that they might not be able to raise her because they have too much "foreknowledge", but I still feel it needs to be addressed for some kind of closure to that storyline. Searching for their daughter was the big quest at the mid-season break. I agree, that this episode redeems Tom MacRae for some of that cheesy Cybus business.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Hello Everybody

    by GeptaOO1

    I don't know if this has been covered, I haven't had the chance to read all of the above messages... The single biggest question in my mind is.... why can't there be 2 Amy's in the TARDIS at the same time? it's been done before... 'Time' and 'Space'

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:44 a.m. CST


    by ByTor

    Time and Space didn't really involve a paradox; just a time slip. The second Amy could exist because the first one would make her exist by leaving; if she hadn't left, THEN there would've been a paradox. In this case, the only way old Amy could possibly come with is if young Amy stays behind. To have both creates a paradox.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    there was a prequel...

    by emeraldboy

    and in that amy leaves a voice message on the tardis phone asking had the dr found melody. and the dr has this uncaring I couldnt give a shit look on his face.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    its the lets kill hitler prequel

    by emeraldboy

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Bytor - Time and Space *did* involve a paradox

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Namely an ontological one, but yes, not one nearly so messy as one which would have ensued with the presence of a second Amy on the Tardis. That said, the moment milfAmy decided that she was going to aim back for the Tardis, that's when everything should have started going wibbly, if it was ever going to, but as is the way with good old who, everything stayed *just so* for the purposes of plot exposition. But hey, that's cool; I guess I just didn't get as lost in the moment as most others (so I guess I'm kind of like you in that regard) Actually, given it's established in this episode that milfAmy's timeline *isn't* a fixed point in time, I couldn't see the harm of envoking multi-branch futures at that point, so as to have two Amy's running around without it being an issue. That said, of course, there's the theory we do have two Amy's running around, and all this is just part of evil Doctor's plan to, you know, do stuff.

  • Sorry about that - I get my paradoxes mixed up sometimes; they can be tricky like that. Zeno's is my favourite, so I'm just glad they intimated at that one during the ep by dressing milfAmy up as Zeno, Warrior Princess. *clunk*

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:15 p.m. CST

    Hey Docbackers, I am back, hope the weekend was good!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    The episode was very good. But, I too feel like not mentioning River at all was pretty slack. For the characters to be written, I would of at least written up a line or so about River. The direction for the episode was very good as well, and I am very much looking forward to the next episode. The one thing I will say about the episode, is "Well done, Karen, well done." On to other news. So, went to the school this morning, and turns out two other kids parents were mad as well. The teacher right off the bat apologized, and when I brought up the failing grade my daughter made on her art asignment, she said not to worry, that she would be making it a passing grade. But here is the kicker, there was TWO other teachers from other grades, that parents were waiting to talk to about the same problem I had! So what gives?! Major Fail, for my daughters school. Let's hope that this ordeal changes the schools view on this touchy subject, and solves the problem in time for the next school year.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:15 p.m. CST


    by BiggusDickus

    'milfAmy'... Made oi larf!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:29 p.m. CST


    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Credit where credit's due, it was our resident bow tie conspiracy theorist CaractacusPotts who came up with the rather splendid milfAmy soubriquet, although I'm sure that all right-thinking feminists would be apalled - where's Andrea Dworkin when you need her?

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:39 p.m. CST

    MJG - glad to hear the feedback from your daughter's teachers was as you'd hoped

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    to an extent, at least. But I've always found it odd how school's define heroism; I remember back when I was in school - I'd have been about 12, I think, so a little older than your daughter - and we too were assigned a heroism task, albeit in this instance to write a story about one, and I distinctly remember getting a very poor grade on that, back in the day, and being somewhat put out by it. True, it might have been because my story was about James Bond, and was crap, but even so, as I'm sure you can appreciate, er, well, there *was* a point to this story but I can't remember what it was. Anyway, I hope you'll keep us posted on further developments regarding your daughter's school and their progress in figuring out exactly how it is they're messing things up.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:51 p.m. CST

    michael_jacksons_ghost just a "passing grade"

    by HornOrSilk

    What does that mean? Seriously, it shouldn't be just a passing grade... but a good grade if the work did as the assignment gave. I say this as one who has taught in universities (not grade school mind you), but still-- it's crazy. This is one of the things wrong with education. Teachers who have no clue to grading.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    No mention of River

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, it might seem odd, but for old Amy, well, who knows what has happened to her in all that time.. as for Rory, he is concerned about rescuing his wife, not chit-chat...

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    The Doctor in the Lets Kill Hitler Preview

    by HornOrSilk

    I think is a different Doctor. I could be wrong.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 12:57 p.m. CST

    ithrat - about the lipstick

    by DoctorTom

    Amy had the lipstick with her when she went into the facility, it wasn't something that she fabricated later. Remember the scene where the younger Amy used the lipstick to mark the hatch/doorway she used. Presumably it's the same tube of lipstick that she had 36 years later. <br> No, the question isn't about the lipstick, it's about the black magic marker she acquired somewhere. If I recall correctly, the face that she drew on the robot Rory was done in black, not in her lipstick.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:02 p.m. CST


    by ByTor

    Fair point, but you get what I'm saying...there's a paradox with two Amys in Space/Time, but it's a self-fulfilling one, whereas the two Amys in The Girl Who Waited wouldn't have been. You'd really need a Paradox Machine to maintain it. I do like milfAmy by the way. Great term. And although Karen said she didn't age well in Confidential, I have to disagree. I can't remember exactly how old Amy is supposed to be, but if milfAmy was 36 years older, that puts her in late 50s or even 60. She was looking damned fine for that age. And yeah, I spent a lot of time looking at both Amys, because the episode just did not work for me as stated above.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:06 p.m. CST

    back_to_the_chopper re: Rory and the baby

    by DoctorTom

    I didn't get the impression that Rory was cool with everything. I just got the impression that he was concerned about the younger Amy at the end, and the episode ended with the Doctor scarpering out of the control room before there could be any more emotional blowups directed his way. <br> As for the missing baby, I suspect that it will be addressed later (probably episode 13), but it did seem like they were still trying to process the whole Melody/Mels/River thing

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:12 p.m. CST

    Thanks ithrat, and horn....

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    She got an A. The teacher confessed that she didn't say to the class rather the "hero" be real or fictional. After me and the wife left, we both concluded that the teacher has no idea what she is doing. During the conversation, she had the deer in headlights look, and you could tell in her tone, that she really didn't know what she was doing. There is nothing I can do about her class this year, due to the overcrowded classrooms, and lack of school books. It is good to see our tax dollars at work. Also, Amy, or Rory should of mentioned something about their daughter before they left the TARDIS. That's just my opinion. But, yeah, once they left, and got into the problem at hand, I wouldn't be thinking of River either. I would want to be getting the hell out of there.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:14 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    You are welcome, and glad to hear about the A. With the teacher described as you do, I feel sorry for the teacher, too. Not saying she was right, but more it seems, she was trained badly, too. This is another problem with the education system. Many teachers mean well, but they know nothing themselves!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:14 p.m. CST

    hello, mavalcar!

    by DoctorTom

    hope you're doing well. <br> V'shael and I were going back and forth yesterday afternoon/evening about time/space (and for that matter, The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors) vs. The Girl Who Waited for paradox stuff. We still disagree to some point on it. <br>Really though, it basically all boils down to scriptwriter/producer fiat - the TARDIS can handle whatever they decide it can, and it can't handle whatever it can't. Sometime later they might come up with explanations for apparent contradictions - the prime example being the whole 'temporal grace' thing from Hand of Fear vs. Davison shooting Cybermen in Earthshock, finally getting an explanation in Let's Kill Hitler that it's a clever lie. <br> If you don't see a difference between time/space and The Girl Who Waited in relation to Paradox and what the TARDIS can handle, then just assume that whatever could handle it before can't handle it now, whether it was from the equipment that could handle it being in a room that was jettisoned during The Doctor's Wife, or Rory shorted it out when he touched the wires together and shorted something out at the end of the episode (at the point where the Doctor irritably said 'yeah, spacey wacey' right after Rory shorted something out).

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:16 p.m. CST

    michael_jacksons_ghost as for River mention

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, you said it with "just trying to get the hell out of there." I think that's it for young Amy and Rory. I'm not so sure about old Amy yet. What if Melody (as Melody, not River) showed up during that time and told Old Amy some things -- even showed her how to make a sonic screwdriver? She might have told Old Amy not to say anything. Silence fell. ;)

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:24 p.m. CST

    michael_jacksons_ghost re: River and school

    by DoctorTom

    This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. There's a lot of people who are getting River fatigue, so it's probably better to have some episodes where she isn't mentioned. <br> As for the school situation, it definitely sounds like an epic fail for the school. I'm not sure whether to be happy for you about the teacher saying she'd change the grade to a passing grade - if it's just pass/fail then I'm happy for you, but if it's actual 'A B C D F' grading then I wouldn't be happy with hearing that it's only going to be made a passing grade. That said, though, I don't see how you'd do something like this beyond a pass/fail without really stepping into a minefield of problems. It also seems strange that you have teachers from two other grades also with the same problem, from the standpoint that I would have thought that this might have only been targeted for a certain grade. It sounds like a mandate had been passed down either from the principal or from the school district to do this, and gave some inappropriate guidelines. <br> Did the teacher say anything about how this happened? If it was just not clear communication on the part of the teachers that's one thing, if it's guidelines passed out for all the teachers to follow that's something else. <br> Well, I hope you don't have any more problems like this with the school!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST

    ithrat - childhood heroes

    by DoctorTom

    I think I had one of those essay things wa-a-a-ay back when I was young, I was in elementary school and dinosaurs roamed the plains.... <br> I vaguely remember something like that, and I'm pretty sure I picked some astronauts as heroes. I was growing up during the whole space race bit, and astronauts were cool then, so I probably had someone like John Glenn or Neil Armstrong (can't remember what grade it was, so it would have depended on whether it was before or after Apollo 11). <br> Needless to say, this was all before we got to see the Doctor putting on an astronaut helmet. The NASA astronauts were cool, and so are their suits. The Doctor was right about the astonaut suits being cool stuff.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    no, again, that was me. meh

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Doctom - A mandate from the school system.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    The teacher said that she went into details because certain students asked about what happened. Then from there, the teacher explained about terrorist, then crashing planes into building etc. Now, here is the thing, I think she failed my daughter originally because the teacher thought that Captain America was only a WWII hero. She sort of blurbed out about him fighting Nazi, and I think she thought that Captain America was not a modern day hero. That would also explain why Superman passed, but not Capt. But like saying in above post, the teacher during the whole meeting, which was only five minutes, she seemed confused about what she was doing on Friday during the assignment.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST


    by DoctorTom

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:51 p.m. CST

    oops, spastic finger syndrome again, sorry MJ's ghost - okay, try 2

    by DoctorTom

    That makes sense, I guess, for someone being clueless. I thought most people knew that Captain America wasn't just for World War II - about 3 years back there was plenty of news coverage about the issue of Captain America where Steve Rogers was 'killed' (and as we suspected, a while later they brought him back, but that's a different point). <br> But, some people still think 'funnybooks' are just for kids (and obviously haven't read some of the stuff by Warren Ellis, Alan Moore or Garth Ennis are putting out at Avatar) and are stuck with the mentality of comic books that prevailed during World War II - despite the fact that a lot of GI's were also reading them then. I blame it all on Frederick Wortham. <br> <br> But, the larger issue would be that what would be wrong with having Captain America as a hero even if he only was in World War II? Would it be wrong for people to have Neil Armstrong, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Joe Namath, General Patton, John F Kennedy or Martin Luther King as heroes? You could apply that same 'well what have they done lately?' mentality to them and disqualify them, even though there's legitimate reasons for every one to be seen as a hero. The teacher really does seem to be clueless on this.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 1:54 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - I don't think River/Melody showed up in the timeline

    by DoctorTom

    If she had, I'm sure Amy would have insisted on being pulled out of that timeline, and would have been pissed at Melody/River if River had left her there. I don't see her not saying anything.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    It really depends upon what Melody said when she got there. She could have said something about the Doctor is going to come soon. You hate him now like I do Mom. Let's mess him up... here is what you do.... The hate she has for the Doctor reminds me of the hate we see the Silence have for him. If Melody showed up, she could have showed up just a day before. She could have said "it's not much longer now, mom, so stay." See?

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Yeah, I made the connection with the hate

    by DoctorTom

    that's why I was thinking that the older Amy will show up again working with the Silence. <br> The problem is, that still leaves MILFAmy stuck in that timeline and supposedly doomed to not have existed. She seemed to have enough of a grasp of time travel where she'd know that would happen and she'd still want to go with River unless there was already an escape that River and MILFAmy had planned. And, if that had already been planned, I seriously doubt we'd have had the reactions we did from her outside the TARDIS. <br> I will say, though, that when I first watched it, when she first saw the Doctor in the doorway of the TARDIS I thought from her look she might try to hold onto the sword so that she could gut him as she charged insdie. <br> And, yes, I agree with Rory and the other people here that MILFAmy was definitely looking good.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST


    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    I agree with all of those names being labeled as heroes. As for certain teachers....who know.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    But if the plan includes trying to make the time line of the Doctor become non-existent, she might feel the conflict we see at the end. If Melody/the Silence thinks it can make and use her time line to rewrite time. Or if they just tell her they can.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    I'm not convinced, hornorsilk

    by DoctorTom

    It would have to have been an awfully good sales pitch. There's also a few other problems with that theory: <br> First, why would Melody/the Silence be trying to make the Doctor's timeline non-existent when they have established that they kill him in 2011 at Lake Silencio? <br> Second, let's say that there is a plan and she goes along. She's not going to telling the Raggedy Man she hates him more than anything and that she'd like to kill him. It's not exactly an incentive to bring her into the TARDIS.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    Maybe there is a timeline in which the Doctor saves himself? So they are doing what they think will stop that. And just because she might agree with a plan doesn't mean she won't tell the Doctor her feelings. She is like a mercenary at this stage.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Secondary Doctor / different timeline Doctor

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    If that is the case, and if this Doctor has the true power of a time lord to regenerate, what if he is a previous version of the Doctor, or a future version? Also, would a different timeline/alternate Doctor's regeneration match the appearance of the regular time line Doctor? Example: Two Tom Baker Doctors, both have to regenerate, would they both be Peter Davidson?

  • or something to that effect, clearly foreshadowing that he's going to try and use his foreknowledge to present his own death. I just wonder what's going to happen in the 200 years in the meantime! It also shows that timelines can be changed. River doesn't have to kill the Doctor, maybe he doesn't have to die. Do you notice in Silence in the Library, River isn't a prisoner? She didn't have to escape the Stormcage to go to the Library. So... maybe they rewrite history, she doesn't kill the Doctor, she never goes to jail in the first place, she gets properly raised by Amy and Rory, etc... I don't mind all the time travel shenanigans of changing history (except maybe the big reset button at the end of Last of the Time Lords) because it's a time travel show. Just make the rules consistent and I'm happy for the Doctor to play in that sandbox.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:42 p.m. CST

    This isn't the first time he's wanted to change his timeline

    by DoctorTom

    To be honest, I'm sure that back with Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy he was wanting to change his timeline so that he didn't become the Valeyard.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:44 p.m. CST

    Reset buittons

    by ByTor

    I don't mind all the time travel shenanigans of changing history (except maybe the big reset button at the end of Last of the Time Lords) because it's a time travel show. Just make the rules consistent and I'm happy for the Doctor to play in that sandbox.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:48 p.m. CST

    The Doctor's "out"? or NOT

    by batmancw

    I imagine some of y'all have thought of this, yet it seems to me that ALL he really has to do is regenerate sometime BEFORE he hits the age of his death at Lake Silencio. Since the "current" Doctor is now aware of that event, & we are constantly being reminded that "time can be re written, wouldn't that be the easiest way to rewrite that particular piece of time? So it would re write that event for Amy, Rory, River, Canton3, and whomever is in the spacesuit--while NOT violating the current Doctor's personal timeline. Or, maybe NOT, as he(older Doc) sent his current self an invite to appear at the Diner after R,R,A & C3 had given him the Viking style funeral. Damn. Thought I'd figured out a clever solution.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST


    by Rebel Scumb

    Yeah that would be absolutely amazing. I would even settle for something more like Myst, if it had Smith or one of the other doctors doing voice work, and HHHUUUUGGGGEEEE playable worlds, and a few chase scenes thrown in for good measure so you could 'run!'

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Well if MilkAmy Hated the doctor after 36 years

    by GeptaOO1

    i bet she hates him even more now..... And since we didn't see her fade out of existence..... In my opinion she's still around....

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Sunspot_mike - River in Silence in the Library

    by DoctorTom

    In Flesh and Stone/Time of the Angels there was the line where Octavian told River that she'd earn a full pardon for bringing the equivalent of an army to help against the Weeping Angels, so presumably that pardon came about between that adventure and Silence in the Library. <br> Of course, if she didn't get the pardon, she still might have escaped Stormcage and then hooked up with the group going to the Library. One interesting thing is to check the dates of the appearances. If I recall correctly, they said that Silence in the Library was in the 51st century. I don't think we got a date from Time of Angels, but the next time we see River escaping from Stormcage, it's in the 52nd century (I think they gave the year as 5147). Time of Angels should have been close to The Pandorica Opens from River's point of view, but would have been after that (she's still in Stormcage and had already had experienced The Pandorica Opens) So, while Silence in the Library occurs for River after Time of Angels and The Pandorica Opens, chronologically Silence in the Library takes place during the century before Time of Angels and The Pandorica Opens. <br> So, presumably River uses her vortex manipulator (or the TARDIS...) after she gets out of Stormcage to go into the past - the 51st century. Sometime after she leaves Stormcage she becomes a professor, and that was recognized by the rest of the team in Silence in the Library (even if she faked the professorship), so she either became a professor or faked being one well before she actually studied to get her degree. <br> <br> Wibbly wobbly timey wimey indeed.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    bytor - reset buttons and last of the Time Lords

    by DoctorTom

    The problem with Last of the Time Lords (well, other than the Doctor making with the Peter Pan sparkly stuff when the Master, who designed the same system, couldn't pull the same trick by having all the Toclafane thinking 'Master') was that they made a hash of the reset button. <br> Taking out the paradox engine was supposed to reset things to the point just before the Toclafane invaded. Well, at that point you had the President of the United States and a lot of other people who had been on the Valiant at the time, but they didn't suddenly pop back onto the ship when the button was set. If I recall correctly, there was also the slight matter of the President being killed before the heavens opened up and it rained Toclafane. And, it was all televised. So, the question is what happened to all those other people who had been on the Valiant?

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:06 p.m. CST


    by DoctorTom

    the problem with regenerating before Lake Silencio is that the death at Lake Silencio is supposed to be a fixed point - supposedly it has to happen (unless you're extremely clever in finding a way to fool the general laws of spacetime) so theoretically that bit of time *can't* be rewritten. I think the Doctor's efforts now are to make sure that it's not so much changing time itself but changing things so that the interpretation people make looking at the fixed point isn't actually what had happened - the Doctor dies instead of a ganger Doctor, or something else clever we haven't thought of yet.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:32 p.m. CST


    by batmancw

    Yeah, I know the "Tessies" said it was a fixed point in Time, yet they were prepared to pull River out of her timestream at the very beginning of it, prior to ANY of her adventures with the Doctor( including saving his life in TFOTD, not to mention the Pandorica & BB2), so maybe they aren't as smart as they seem. What occurred to me is that it COULD work provided he waited until after he and River had their "last" adventure prior to that point of HIS(Doc 1103's) timeline, send the invites to R,R & A to meet in DC & add the notations of 1969 Moon Landing, Oval Office, or something to that effect, so they still know to go there & then from 2011, trusting the Tardis to take them to the same moment(ie where they need to go) & THEN Doc 1103 regenerates & NEVER goes to lake Silencio, BUT the events of TIA that FOLLOWED his death could still occur & lead to both the Silence being kicked off of Earth & Melody escaping them to go to NY, etc, etc Just trying to think of the "simplest" solution, other than it being the Ganger Doc who is offed by the astronaut.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    @cartacuspotts - watch

    by Fuck The Napkin

    Now the Doc is wearing a watch too! Has anyone ever seen the Doc wear a watch before? Freaky!

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:34 p.m. CST

    & send the invite to himslef as well--left that out in prior post

    by batmancw

  • As for Lake Silencio, I keep suspecting that somehow when he got poisioned in LKH that he went and got an earlier version of himself out of the past (the wedding doc) to pretend to be ill, then went off to Lake Silencio to be killed - letting his past self take up the mantle of his 'present' But of course that kinda leaves a massive paradox.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    oops spoiler speculation on that last post

    by Evilmeister

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    doctortom: more on reset buttons

    by ByTor

    I wasn't crazy about the Peter Pan stuff, but I can accept it. Sure, the Master could've done the same...except the Doctor spent a year linking himself into the psychic matrices or whatever. Odds are the Master hadn't done that. Plus, the Toclafane would've had to have been told to do that...and many of them were off-planet getting ready for the big invasion (you can see this if you watch). So yeah, it's not exactly tight writing, but I buy it. As to the reset button...well I wouldn't expect the President to be back; he wasn't killed under the auspices of the paradox machine. The big descending-from-the-clouds bit was the start of the paradox. As to the rest of the people who were there...yeah, they probably should've been back. But you could argue that since it was the ''eye of the storm'' that's why they didn't. I just think the Moffat timey-wimey manipulations in Big Bang are more dangerous, because they can undermine dramatic tension in pretty much any episode.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 5:57 p.m. CST

    Finally watched it last night... awesome episode

    by Gherkin

    Real gut-wrencher at the end there. Karen, Arthur, and Matt were all amazing. Some odd little plot holes, but waaayyy up in the top echelon of storylines.

  • screwing up the year to show up to get Hitler, posing as a green Rasputin, there's definitely problems with the crew - then again, they're showing the same level of general competence as the army did in A Good Man Goes to War, so it wouldn't be surprising if they're just a different judicial/military branch from the same time period. <br> I don't follow how he would be able to regenerate beforehand, not show up and still have the death at Lake Silencio show up as a fixed point. People would still need to see a Doctor get shot. It could be a ship like the Teselecta, but I don't see that leaking regeneration energy (though it might be able to be faked). It could be a ganger. For that matter, it could be River having regenerated and looking like the Matt Smith Doctor (hah, nobody saw THAT coming!), and claiming to be 200 years older. Granted, it leaves a problem with the whole Silence in the Library thing, but maybe there's a way around that. <br> <br> Thinking of what we know, maybe the way around a fixed point in spacetime is to change things to the point where you break the universe, then figure out how to patch it up after it breaks. It *would* explain things like the cracks in time and space in season 5, and might be an explanation for Emperor Churchill on a mammoth, and pterodactyls showing up at the end of the season (we know about Churchill from the Moffat-approved Meredith Viera interview earlier, where they played the clip with her reporting the news, and we see the pterodactyls in the trailers for the 2nd half of the season). <br> Maybe the way out of this is to actually save Melody before she kills the Doctor, changing history so we don't get Mels or River Song, and giving the baby back to Amy and Rory to raise. He only needs to put back together the universe he broke in order after he does this. <br> Or, he saves Melody, counters some of the programming and sets things up so that she appears to kill him. Or she actually kills him or almost kills him, but he's given regeneration energy back to Melody (before Melody ever gave any to him), so that he appears dead but Melody can still make him regenerate. AFter all, we know the astronaut went back underwater, so she might be there to be able to pull it off. If something like this happens, then we might find out that her giving the regeneration energy back to the Doctor was what stressed her and put her to the level where she was dying and needed to regenerate, and the Doctor drops her off in January 1970 (the six months later clip we saw), where she's supposed to be. <br> <br> Most likely it's neither of these, but it's still fun to throw out the speculations. I have a funny suspicion that there's going to be a link between the Doctor's 'death' in 2011 and Melody's regeneration in New York City. (Although it might actually be more interesting if the Doctor were to actually take things to the point where he breaks the universe to save himself - even if he puts things back together, that would certainly meet the criteria of 'fall so low' that we were told about in Demon's Run.)

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 7:34 p.m. CST

    Re-watching Girl Who Waited

    by gotilk

    Half because I was going to anyway, half because now I'm watching for the pressing of buttons, tape recorders and green-red things. DARN YOU DOCBACK! lol

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 8 p.m. CST

    Milfamy was from Gotlik

    by veteran_of_mu

    Not me. And it made me spurt milk out my nose. There's an unpleasant metaphor. Anyway, yes, looking forward to someone confirming my observations of what a bastard that red tie doctor really is.

  • Yet (at least from what we know so far) doesn't actually have anything to do with 'The Silence' If you watched all the episodes chronologically from River's POV first, and saw that episode coming up towards the end you'd probably have very different expectations for it.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 8:23 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Believe me, its not half as unpleasant as spurting gotilk out your nose.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 8:24 p.m. CST

    Watched again, was going to do a lot of pausing and

    by gotilk

    observing... but got caught right back up in it. Did notice that button on the mirror changing color a lot.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 8:42 p.m. CST

    What a day...

    by gotilk

    hope I can come back later. Have a great night everyone.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 10:39 p.m. CST

    The Girl Who Waited

    by Briannicus

    I would have to say that I was rather impressed with this episode. Was an interesting concept and the execution was not bad at all. Arthur Darvill continues to put in quality performances. Karen as Amy and Amy senior put in a immensely impressive performance. I've been one of the people who always felt that Amy was under-rated and misunderstood by a great many people. There were a few surprises, other stuff was a bit more predictable but was pulled off to good effect. Had a few moments where I was misting up. The final scene where Amy Senior is telling Rory if he loves her to "not" let her in. The hand bots sedating her before the TARDIS left and continuing to bang on about how it was a kindness took on a bit of a new meaning. NOW, as far as people calling older Amy "MilfAmy" Amy, regardless of whether she was younger or older is STILL a mother, MILF standing for "mom I'd like to fuck" could be applied to either (depending on your taste) CougarAmy or Amy Senior might be more acceptable substitutes.

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:13 p.m. CST

    Complete Conjecture: could you accept...

    by Perigee

    Not saying this DOES happen. But, lets pretend: 1) The gangers episode went to great pains to point out the equality of Gangers to people. One 'became' his original's replacement in a family. And much ado was made about whether one Doctor was or was not the equal of the other. 2) At the time of the ganger's inception as a sentient, they stopped sharing experiences - theoretically, they began as a snapshot of the same man, but (were the ganger to live) they would now different by experience. 3) The non-ganger Doctor has seen a lot in the last couple episodes -things he can't be proud of, things he didn't want to be. So: As a fan of the series, Could you accept the Ganger Doctor as the surviving Doctor? Actual Doctor, full of remorse, all the lives he's screwed up that he seems to increasingly regret, chooses to be the one who dies: the ganger - who may have been hiding under women's skirts and dancing with Laurel and Hardy, with a zest for life and time travel, living on. Just theoretically, how would you handle that?

  • Sept. 12, 2011, 11:56 p.m. CST


    by Briannicus

    Though that would be a rather innovative way to resolve certain issues, I just don't see things going down like that. I'm pretty sure that Moffatt has a perfectly acceptable and possibly innovative way to wrap things up. As far as the ganger Doctor goes, I just don't see it happening primarily due to the fact that he has been (for all intents and purposes) converted into a non-sentient pile of goop.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 12:27 a.m. CST

    Perigree/conjecture - no, not really

    by Dreamfasting

    No, I don't think I would be comfortable with that resolution. Even if it was just an arbitrary line of script and even if it was postulating a sentient being with the exact same appearance and memories, even if it didn't know which was which, I would not see it as the same character. It would foul up the suspension of disbelief and create an emotional disconnect.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 12:34 a.m. CST

    doctortom - nice job on remembering Octavian's line

    by sunspot_mike

    and thank you for making me think about Time of Angels, which is probably my favorite Doctor Who story of all time. River's intro, the angel caught in Amy's eye, and the Doctor's speech as he fires at the gravity globe are the most excited I've ever felt during an episode and that includes when I was watching as a little kid.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:51 a.m. CST


    by gotilk

    You know (on the subject of the term *MILFamy*) you, sir , are absolutely correct. And that same moment made me a bit misty as well. Pretty powerful stuff, eh?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:53 a.m. CST

    Apologies for the misattribution Caractacus / Gotilk...

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Control F lied to me! Something I've been thinking about, and it does relate to the things most recebtly discussed, let's recall a quick line from AGMGTW: "The days is coming when I’ll look into that man’s eyes, my Doctor, and he won’t have the faintest idea who I am. And I think it’s going to kill me." which we all assume is a foreshadowing of Silence in the Library. Then let us consider this, from that chronologically later episode: "But not "my" Doctor. Now my Doctor, I've seen whole armies turn and run away. And he'd just swagger off, back to his TARDIS. And open the doors with a snap of his fingers. The Doctor. In the TARDIS." So, wait - in the AGMGTW quote, "my" Doctor we have to infer is the 10th; in the latter, it is clearly the 11th. So - has the line in AGMGTW been poorly drafted, or is there something else going on here?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 4:27 a.m. CST

    The lipstick

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Doctortom, you're right - it's a given she had it going in. You're equally right about the black magic marker, though, and I expect to get an episode devoted to it in the near future :) Oh, and a quick thought about the green and red lights; are they not just indicating the time-stream into which the looking glass is looking, without them being anything more than that? I've not re-watched on a colour basis yet, but is this something worth bearing in mind. Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a bit worried about what to expect in the finale **potential spoilers to follow**; not because I don't think it will tie up multiple threads and be satisyingly timey-wimey, but because in making his female characters so needy - the Girl who waited being a case in point, given how amy is presented here as someone unable to rescue herself - Sir the Moff has, I fear, undone a lot of the good work he did in establishing River as a kick-ass heroine and I'm concerend we'll see even more of that at the end of the series. After all, look at the evidence the women he has written can only define themselves in terms of weddings, it seems, and in terms of the men they marry; it certainly seems to be the only thing in Amy's character arc at the moment. Or is the presentation of this whole aspect of life what the Moff was referring to when he described his perception of Doctor Who as being a "fairy tale"? I hope for the latter but I fear the former. What we could really do with, imho, is a female character like Liz Shaw again. I mean, she brooked no shit *and* she smoked a pipe - I mean, how cool is that? I think I've been reading too many things like this:

  • No dice ithrat. Look at the complete chronology in my long post above titled @v'shael - Watches, Time Lens, Red & Green Buttons. The idea that the lens light colour indicates the stream don't add up at all. Plus your explanation wouldn't explain the magtape and the fluttering digital clock. There really is no question about it. Red tie Doc is a son of a batch. On where the black pigment came from on Roborory, it could just be mascara. I mean if Amy's got her makeup kit, why not? On the time regulator, let's imagine Blue means TARDIS magtape. Rory plugs that into red to play the output of the TARDIS tape of Ilfamy. Green into blue - that's to pipe the Green Waterfall Amy into the TARDIS tape. Leave the red loose ... because the Doc is going to erase Milfamy? Or because he's going to come back later and capture her in some other device? But what I really want to know is ... why did Rory think they could "just teleport in" when they hadn't done any teleporting at all in this episode? And why did Ilfamy tell Milfamy "you can't jump within the same time stream". Whatever that means ... how did Ilfamy know that? Timey wimey!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:08 a.m. CST


    by veteran_of_mu

    Green into blue - that's to pipe the Green ANCHOR Amy into the TARDIS tape.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 6:08 a.m. CST

    Caractacus, I really hope you're right on the colours thing

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    because it's a very attractive theory. The question I have, however, isn't why, but if green means playback, and red means record, was everything recorded of the younger Amy done by the Doctor? In which case, when Rory re-watches it later, would that not necessitate him following in exactly the same footsteps somehow, because the time lens only seems to have a narrow frame of vision. I did notice the dream-lord birdsong cue, though - and what about this BBC One logo: Or is that just a BBC One logo? One other hesitation I do have - there's no way a one inch magtape on a reel-to-reel could have recorded 36 years of footage; not a chance, however timey-wimey this magtape is. Oh, wait, this is Doctor Who... On a similar note, I did a calculation with a friend a few years back, and we calculated that if we recorded an episode of Who on punchcards, the total volume of these punchcards would be about half the size of my friend's living room. Anyone else been able to verify Caractacus's latest colour theory yet?

  • Is that the Doctor continually leads our heroes to believe that whatever the handbots want to administer to Amy is deadly, but both young Amy (or ilfAmy, as bad boy Caractacus would have it) and Rory are both injected with something (oh, that earlier handbot *so* got Rory before milfamy lopped its head off), and they were just anaesthetics. So it's quite probable that milfamy is still kicking around somewhere, and this SOB Doc is playing the long game for reasons that will become clear. Bit bloody complicated for a kid's show, this, isn't it?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 6:28 a.m. CST

    And re: Perigree

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I wouldn't feel comfortable with an *unreal* Doctor, either, however much it is almost identical to the real thing, as it were - the disconnect that dreamfasting mentioned would affect me, too, and I suspect we wouldn't be alone in that.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 7:26 a.m. CST

    (Conjecture, agreed - but continue to answer, guys)

    by Perigee

    I wouldn't take to it well either - I just find it amusing that even after we were given a whole episode of The Doctor making a screaming point about the equality of the Gangerdoc, we would still refuse to accept that as a valid character continuation. They did something like that on Star Trek Voyager - replaced one of their guys with an alternate (wiki - "In "Deadlock", Voyager and its crew are duplicated. The original ship's version of Kim is blown into space; the other ship's duplicate of Kim replaces him shortly afterwards."), and I was never engaged enough with the series to care. When the idea came to me about DW, I realized how unacceptable even a Doctor-approved replacement Doc would be. It's simply not an argument the Doctor can win, no matter how logically - there's only one of him.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 7:54 a.m. CST

    What do you all think of the idea that this entire arc

    by gotilk

    is leading to a way around the Doctor's regeneration limitations? He being able to regenerate only 12 times (unless he was granted a new cycle off-camera before the time war?? would be a bit of a cheat wouldn't it?) ... and all. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm waaaay off. Wouldn't be the first time.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 7:57 a.m. CST

    up way too early

    by gotilk

    back to bed for some more rest. Insomnia sucks. Be well, DocBackers!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST

    @ithrat & perigee on Ilfamy, Sobdoc & Birdsong (Spoilers)

    by veteran_of_mu

    I don't know if you noticed all the Dreamlord queues in LKH. Birdsong in the first two scenes and then a music queue as the Doc died. No idea what those meant except that I'm beginning to wonder whether there's birdsong in every episode of this arc ... Obviously it has become really important to me that there are 2 doctors. Because if it turns out the Really Truly Doctor is this evil I'm going to need a new hero in my next school essay on 9/11. What I find most impressive about the current arc is how well the Moff is doing at keeping us completely in the frickin' dark. I mean we're not dim bulbs here and we *REALLY* don't have any idea how the Moff is going to (a) tie this thing together (b) tie it together with sufficient exposition to be understandable by normal viewers. Where my definition of normal is viewers who never heard of the Docback; and (c) recover from it As for Perigee's question, what I expect is that at the end of S6 the Really Truly Doctor will appear to be Really Truly Dead. Sobdoc will appear to have won ... except for River's spoiling conversation with Ilfamy about ~that man, always thinking so far ahead~ I guess that that's the spoiler that really set off the Moff earlier in the year. If it wasn't for that spoiler we wouldn't have any clues about the arc at all at this point. Then again after TGWW I am convinced the Moff is actually evil enough to rewrite continuity so that that spoiler is no longer in it. It may be that we *STILL* have no clues about the arc. Anyway ... yes, I think it will apppear that the Gangerdoc is the only living Doc at the end of this season. And shortly after it will be revealed he's every bit as batshit as GangerJen, for the same reasons. And then I think he's going to call himself the Valeyard and control the Pandorica Alliance. And then I think My Doctor will beat him.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 8:18 a.m. CST

    Perigee - it's an interesting point

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    and it touches on several things at once; the arguments presented in 'Rebel Flesh / Almost People' I never fully believed anyway; I suppose this is because, like everyone actually in the situation at the time, I saw these gangers phasing in and out of their adherence to human form so never entirely engaged with the idea they were proper, faultless duplicates anyway. Perhaps if I had a better understanding of how the flesh technology actually worked, as opposed to just the brief oversight we saw in the eps, my opinion would be quite different, but it is like Star Trek more generally in that regard, given that how anyone transported is merely a reproduction, how can one truly define an individual in these situations anyway?Plus, this brings to mind the old philosophical quandary of what is it that makes an individual so. It seems to me to be more a matter of intuition than anything else, and it's perhaps this same sense of intuition that would be violated by a duplicate doctor. I suppose I could accept it, but more than anything I would see the need to introduce one as evidence of a dearth of story ideas more than anything else. After all, the last Docback dealt with Tom Riker from ST:TNG, a very similar scenario, although it's quite telling, I suppose, that even in that instance, there was only ever *one* Will Riker running about, grooming his beard and borking Troi. Anyway, like a lot of people I'd imagine, my attraction to Doctor Who is as his embodiment of mythic archetype. After all, he is the traveller, the story-teller, the sage etc etc, and whilst we know he is mortal - in fact, the whole notion of regenerations regularly reminds us of that - the idea that he somehow transcends this is very alluring, and to have a 'not-real', or unoriginal, him bouncing around instead of the 'real' one would lessen that timelessness and purpose somehow. Now, whilst we may be faced by such a situation in the future, it's not something I would expect to see happen under the Moff, for whilst I retain one or two reservations regarding the Moff's ability (or desire) to create strong, truly independent female characters, his understanding of story, myth and the Doctor's timey-wimey role within that is second to none, SitL being a case in point. Well, even should we end with a replacement Doc (after all, we are always being warned to expect the unexpected), let's hope that this replacement Doc can fix up the holes in the web of time. Oh, and on a completely different and unrelated note, I bloody loved Donna. Don't get me wrong, she'd annoy the knackers off me in real life, but as a foil for the good Doctor - brilliant brilliant brilliant. And the look on her face when she entered the abandoned Tardis in 'Turn Left', offset by that melancholic music cue - that's probably my favourite moment in all Who, right there. Just thought I'd throw that in for no good reason.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 8:50 a.m. CST


    by gotilk

    I'm not convinced anyone was injected.... BUT I'm also not convinced ILFamy is dead.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 8:51 a.m. CST

    I love how we just *organically* switched over to

    by gotilk

    calling her ILFamy. LOL! I love this place.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 9:01 a.m. CST

    ithrat -- Donna could annoy the knockers of me anytime

    by WickedJacob

    ahem, what I mean is excellent post -- right on about the archetype business and how xeroxes running about potentially muck that up.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 9:05 a.m. CST

    Problem is with bringing the Valeyard back, of course

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Well, there are two problems, really: 1 - the Master described him as being between the 12th and Final re-incarnations. We're on number 11. Of course, the Master lies... 2 - IIRC, the powers that be have explictly denied the Valeyard's return. Of course, the powers that be lie. 3 - The Valeyard is old-looking, and wears a stupid hat. The 11th Doctor is not old looking. 4 - I can't count. And that birdsong does keep cropping up, there's no doubt; the question is, can herrings whistle? My main reservation with the arc revolving around the whole duplicate thing is your point (b), above, but if anyone can make this understandable by a nine year old, then it's the Moff. Mind you, what's more likely, if the history of Who is anything to go by, is that these threads and potentialities will just be left open to hang for years and years, just to annoy people like us :)

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 9:30 a.m. CST

    goilk - whilst it doesn't actually make proper sense at all

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    if I understood Caractacus' post correctly, MilfAmy is the older of the two Amys and Ilfamy is the younger. I do (mostly) agree that the former of these is still alive; the latter most definitely is. Wait - what with us calling normal Amy ilfamy, you'd think we were all a bunch of rather sad and possibly sex-obsessed geeks perving their way across the internet. Oh dear :(

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 9:37 a.m. CST

    @ithrat & gotlik - you forgot

    by veteran_of_mu

    1. There's an incarnation of the doctor from the chopped off hand. Rose's doctor. That makes Smith the 12th. 2. TPTB also said no Daleks this season. So much for that. 3. Old Valeyard could be a regen using River's regen energy. 4. Yep. And, hey, Gotlik, you already scored with Milfamy, Ilfamy's mine (and refers to the less motherly Amy as opposed to your girl (and yes I know they're both supposed to be mothers (not that you'd know from the amount of talking they do about the baby (and how come River didn't step in to save Milfamy?]

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:06 a.m. CST


    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    1. Oh, you can't count Mr. Meta-crisis, surely? If anything, he was 10.5. But if you do, couldn't you also include the Shalka Doctor, and the Seven Keys to Doomsday Doctor? If you did, that would make Smith no. 14, or even No. 14.5. Hmm - definitely fits the bill now... 2. Not seen too much either way on that, yet. 3. Thing is, if my Doctor wings in to save the day and defeats the Valeyard, I can't imagine my Doctor letting the Valeyard go free, not after all of this. Plus, I can't imagine River being pleased with having given her regenerations to the 'wrong' Doctor, and that would mess up all sorts of things in SitL. 4. And that's why I work in a bank :) There's part of me thinking that River, or Mels, or someone did wing in whilst MilfAmy was acquiring her 'M', but we've just not been shown it. Maybe it was the dude who thought it was still 1967...

  • ...nothing at all. He pushes the red button to get through to see Amy in the red waterfall room. After that he scans the magnifying glass to boost the signal. I just can't get the red/blue theory to stick, although it is interesting.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Sam yeah, I don't get anything with the red/blue theory

    by HornOrSilk

    But I do know, the Doctor lies once again next week. It IS almost becoming a theme this season.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:17 a.m. CST

    The Birdsong being this series' Bad Wolf / Torchwood?

    by wtriker1701

    Must look through all the episodes since Amy's Choice I'm afraid...

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:18 a.m. CST

    Cracks... I didn't mention the Cracks in time...

    by wtriker1701

    Sorry, amended.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:29 a.m. CST

    Yeah, I'm not buying the Red/Green buttons theory either.

    by V'Shael

    This isn't like the jacket/no jacket in the Forest of the Dead, or the final words of Idris, where I can genuinely miss something and then go back and see it and go WOW HOW DID I MISS THAT? This is, I think, all the product of a mind that has read too many posts about how there's two doctors and different coloured bow-ties. All of which was fruitless conjecture IMO, even if some people found it entertaining. Still, we'll find out in three weeks for certain.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    There was this bird, and she was called Song...

    by Ithrat Cordwallis


  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST

    Perigee - the problem in accepting gangerDoc

    by DoctorTom

    If it happened that the gangerDoc became the only Doctor around after the season finale, then it would mean that the Doctor we would have running around after that wouldn't be the Doctor that we saw in A Good Man Goes to War, Let's Kill Hitler, Night Terrors, The Girl Who Waited and the next two stories. I think that's more the problem than accepting a gangerDoc per se. <br> There's also the niggling suspicion that a gangerDoc who knew all that the Flesh knew in the 22nd century (he could feel all of that) might still be influenced by the Flesh then. <br> But, the theory could be good with some slight modifications. You don't take the gangerDoctor that we saw in The Almost People (assuming he survived and regenerated back to a Matt Smith form - not guaranteed*). The Doctor, knowing he has to die, makes a new gangerDoc and makes sure that it's stabilized so that it will be 'just' a TimeLord. He does this just before going to Lake Silencio for his death. That might be a little more palatable for people. What would be interesting in this case would be that the Doctor doesn't let anybody know which one was the original and which one was the gangerDoc, so we don't know if it's the original or a stabilized ganger that we have. Leaving the question open might be better than making a definite statement that it is the gangerDoc that survives. <br> <br> <br> * as a side note, if he does survive and regenerate, you now have a Doctor somewhere between his 12th and final regeneration - counting the season 4 Journey's end bit as a regeneration since it started even though Tennant didn't change his looks. Voila, you've met the prerequisites for what we've been told about the Valeyard without actually having 'our' Doctor become the Valeyard**. It wouldn't have to be the initial regeneration after being puddled into glop in The Almost People, it could be later. I thought it would just be fun to point out that there's an option here that can be exploited later. <br> <br> <br> ** If you want to subsitute Dream Lord, or feel that it's the Dream Lord persona in the Valeyard, feel free to call him the Dream Lord instead of the Valeyard.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST

    One other thing about the theory in my last post

    by DoctorTom

    The Doctor making a new gangerDoc to get around the fixed point problem would be aesthetically pleasing from the standpoint that Kovarian fooled him twice with ganger copies, and this way he'd be able to use the same technology in a turnaround, to get around the trap that's been set up for him. Hoisting Kovarian and the Silents on their own petard, so to speak.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Birds, buttons, etc.

    by ByTor

    I think we're really over-thinking things, here. We've convinced ourselves that all the clues are present to figure out what the Moff is up to. But I don't buy it. I think there are hints that will make us look back and smack our foreheads come ep 13, but at this point we might as well just take wild guesses. Looking back at S5, there was no way we could've figured out the Pandorica business. We had the little hints (like in Flesh and Stone), but nothing much more than that. I believe that the Doctor we see shot down in The Impossible Astronaut was the Doctor. Not a ganger, or other duplicate. Moffat said so in Confidential, and while he could be lying, I don't think he is. So...who knows. Damn him!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST

    The universe is going to bring the Doctor back to life....

    by HornOrSilk

    Oh, wait, wrong episode.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:05 a.m. CST

    And another twist to add to that

    by DoctorTom

    Doctor makes the new DoctorGanger and stailizes it in the TARDIS, planning on sacrificing himself and letting the gangerDoc take his place. The gangerDoc has the same knowledge and feelings, decides he doesn't want the other (original) Doctor sacrificing himself for him, knocks out the Doctor or something and takes the original's place in the plan. So, it turns out it *is* a gangerDoc that dies, but it's not the gangerDoc we were thinking of, and we see this one go out heroically.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:07 a.m. CST

    gotilk - new regeneration cycle

    by DoctorTom

    I wouldn't think it would be a cheat at all if the Doctor had gotten a new regeneration cycle during the Time Wars. As a matter of fact, I would expect the Time Lords to enable their people to regenerate as many times as possible given that it's a war. If it takes only one Dalek weapon-beam to kill one of the regenerations, you'd want to have as many as possible if you're going to be facing them.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Caractuspotts - why this isn't the Dream Lord's doing now

    by DoctorTom

    the Dream Lord didn't pop up until Season 5. In season 4 we had River Song talking about 'her' Doctor who could make armies run at the snap of his fingers and swagger back to the TARDIS. The Doctor she is describing is the Doctor we have now (or the Doctor slightly in the future when she gets him to step back from the moral precipice as she tried doing at the end of A Good Man Goes To War). I see River's 'my Doctor' as being a reality, not a dream. If this is all a dream then it's not reality, and we don't have River with 'her' Doctor. <br> You also essentially end up invalidating all of the stories of the season if this is all some trick of the Dream Lord's. I don't see that happening.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    New Regeneration Cycle

    by ByTor

    I too sort of assumed he could've gotten a new set of regenerations and/or an expanded limit during the Time War. If they can resurrect the Master and give him a full set of regenerations, then why not?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 12:19 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    I replied to your e-mail :) waiting for a re-response :)

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Have fun until then, batmancw!

    by DoctorTom

    i can't wait to see how all this resolves

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Oh, one speculation about Kovarian

    by DoctorTom

    looking at the picture of her again, I remember how we had been talking about the eyepatch being something for blocking out the influence of the Silents. <br> I've been wondering lately, though (especially given their appearance in AGMGTW and the glimpse of some of them in the Meredith Viera interview - SPOILERS if you want to avoid)... <br> <br> really, if you don't want to be spoiled for later, don't read <br> <br> <br> <br> since we know the Cybermen are involved, whether that's actually a Cyber-implant Kovarian has, and if she's actually working for the Cybermen (even if she's allied-at least temporarily-with the Academy of the Question, the Order of the Silence, and presumably whichever Church is using the Papal mainframe). I'm suspecting that the implant keeps her under Cyber-control. That might also mean that the endless war she's talking about is a war between the Doctor and the Cybermen.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    I've got to get out of the habit

    by GeptaOO1

    of deleting episodes right after I watch them.... I wish my DVR had an undelete feature.... I want to go back and re-watch with all the record and playback angle's in my head

  • The first is funny, the second is mysterious, and, the third has a surprise. I won't give it away, but, I'm sure everyone will get a good laugh from the first one.

  • I don't go to the BBC web site much.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2 p.m. CST

    The birdsong and a few other points

    by Kevin Bolinger

    If you all go back and watch the 11th hour, the birdsong first is heard there...oddly enough. One thing that has been bugging me about Mels...if she was in an alley in NYC in 1970, and regenerated into a toddler...then how was she able to go forward in time as a toddler to the 1990's to go to school with Amy and Rory...remember, Amy and Rory are not in their late 30's lol.... As for regenerations, he has no I have stated before...the regen limit was not a physical thing, it was a time lord law enacted by Rassilon...since there is no time lord society anymore, the rule no longer applies. Now to the Valeyard...I have made my thoughts on the possibility of him being a part of this for some, here is how it could work without confusing those who have never seen the older who stuff. We have a good Doctor and an Evil the end, the evil one regenerates, goes off on his own, and renames himself the Valeyard...old fans would get it, and new fans would think its cool and wonder what he will do in the future to gum up the works. In 3 eps, we will know one way or the other anyway...and if you want to find the birdsong in 11th hour...its when he gets knocked out by Amy

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:32 p.m. CST

    you're not the last to see them, axcel1

    by DoctorTom

    I can't normally get streaming video here at work, so can't watch the clips until I get home

  • I wasn't sure if the comment about aging backwards was to cover Mels deaging herself back to a kid when she found Amy as well as covering Alex Kingston being younger when River was supposed to be older.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    IlfAmy, MilfAmy and the ganger Doctor

    by Briannicus

    Let's make it simpler for us shall we, how about we just go with Amy, and oldAmy that way we actually pare down the amount of letters we are typing to describe which one we're talking about (since as previously stated they are both mom's and that being the case MilfAmy still does not adequately describe which is being referred to.) Now as I said about the ganger Doctor, it's not so much about the disconnect that we'd get from him not being the "original" Doctor (the one that we've known from '63 to present) ganger or not he's still The Doctor (for all intents and purposes) but it's very hard to get around the fact that he is now a non sentient pile of goop. As for the bird call in the garden scene? I'm not reading too much into it. bird songs are usually ascribed to idyllic scenes like the kind represented in a garden. Don't really know about the mag tape thing or the clock but I would be more inclined to believe that it was affected by OldAmy's faster timeline when they magnifying glass was in proximity. I don't think the magnifying glass records anything. I think it does exactly what we were told (which is to allow you to view parties within a different timeline) Also I believe that the green and blue buttons would indicate which type of timeline you were entering (normal or accelerated) I wouldn't put it past the Moff to throw us a curveball but at this point in time I think this is probably the way things are

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:54 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    I guess cheat was a poor choice of words. Maybe it would be seen as an "easy out". BTW: SO nice to be able to use quotes again here.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:54 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Cool , I'll go check it now. Thanks.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:55 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Oh Dear indeed.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Yep, ILFamy is all yours. And if I indeed "scored" with milfamy, I'd be all braggy and not shutting up about it.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    No matter what it takes, even if I lose more sleep

    by gotilk

    I MUST finish watching all of the McCoy episodes. I did a little skipping around and cheating last year when I watched those. And a shout-out to all the fellow McCoy/Ace fans here. You know who you are. We are perhaps a rare but beloved breed.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    Hello, Gotilk!

    by DoctorTom

    You can count me as a McCoy/Ace supporter. That was my favorite Doctor/companion(s) outside of Tom Baker/Leela, Tom Baker/Sarah Jane/Harry Sulliven (yes, I liked having the Harry and Sarah combo, I feel vindicated for having liked a male and female companion both now with the new series (Eccleston/Captain Jack/Rose, Tennant/Mickey/Rose, and now Smith/Amy/Rory/sometime River). Plus, we have the bonus now where you can have more than one companion and not have to have all the Saward filler scenes of the companions bickering in the TARDIS, either with each other or with the Doctor.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Is it dead for the week already?

    by gotilk

    Bring me death, bring me glory! He has promised me a glorious death!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    So, just when I assumed I could use quotes...

    by gotilk

    it does it again. Truncated. I'm going to check again to see if it's browser-specific. I think I did try Chrome already though. Not going to try IE, I'll leave that up to the grandmas to use. The above as to have been followed by a sarcastic quip about it being a *kid's show*. lol And a reminder to watch for Choppah's cameo. Oh well. At least I got 2 posts out of it. Love you all. Probably won't post again until later. Of to check e-mails.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    I'm not drunk, I swear.

    by gotilk

    It's this wireless keyboard. Skips letters I type.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:18 p.m. CST

    Word of advice.

    by gotilk

    Never talk to the strange clowns.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    We're too close to the end now.

    by gotilk

    So sad. Thank goodness for Merrick!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 3:32 p.m. CST

    Mild Spoilers: Clip from God Complex

    by gotilk

    You're fired. LOL!!!

  • First, we get the Doctor saying, Amy, with regret, you're fired! overlapping that, is Rory saying, It's ok, we're nice! I can't stop watching thar clip!

  • First ,Rory says, It's ok, we're nice! Then, the Doctor fires Amy!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    I know, I've watched it a few times already. Kills me. Nice to see ya, axcel1.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 4:41 p.m. CST

    I'm having a boring day.

    by gotilk

    Time to go start something. (something nice, don't worry) Maybe I'll just keep popping in and out of here with links and clips and stuff.

  • I see 2 clips are on the BBC web site, the funny one and mysterious one, but, is the surprise one there? The one where an old enemy turns up in one of the rooms.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:01 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    NO! I didn't see that clip. Have a link?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:19 p.m. CST

    In the clip

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor lies... again...


  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:29 p.m. CST

    I am also having a boring day. At work in the office,

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    with nothing to do. After reading some above comments about good/evil Doctor, Valeyard, Dream Lord, here is something I was thinking about. What if The Doctor has gone all Tyler Durden? He is fighting himself all of this time, and not knowing it. You would have to be smarter than the Doctor to beat him....unless you are the Doctor.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:35 p.m. CST

    BTW I expect the Viking with the Chessboard will be

    by HornOrSilk

    In this weekend's episode, not the finale.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:35 p.m. CST

    oh, so i was away for the weekend...

    by notspock2

    I think everything's pretty much been said, however, I must know.. Did Old Amy remind any one else of Robin Williams in The Fisher King? Did this MONA LISA have *This is a fake* written on it? Is that two clear city of death references we've had since Moffat took over? Is old Amy really gone? If Amy remembers her, can she bring her back? is a Paradox different from the way Rory was erased from existence? if the Doctor can use the folding timeline thing to make two Amys -can he use this to make two of himself? Has he already?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:45 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    if the Doctor can use the folding timeline thing to make two Amys -can he use this to make two of himself? Has he already?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    heh, I wondered that about the Mona Lisa too when I saw it

    by DoctorTom

    As for the Doctor using the folding timeline thing - it's possible. I suspect gangerDocs more, though.

  • It keeps happening to me sporadically.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 5:59 p.m. CST

    Yes, I did... I hate it.. Doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    What I was going to say is -- I think he is trying!

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Matt Smith's Doctor is a regeneration that went wrong.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    I think that when the Tenth use his regeneration energy into his hand to create the second Tenth Doctor, it messed up the mind of himself when he became the Eleventh. The only way to fix it would be to kill the Eleventh, so Doctor #12 would be back to normal. That is why I think he is fighting himself, and not knowing it. In the Eleventh Hour he screams out "WRONG", and he has problems getting back to Amelia/Amy, saying it will be 5 minutes, and then was like 12 years late. Then when the TARDIS finally fixed itself, he left, but was gone for like 3 years. What if The Doctor was putting things into motion during that time, and when he arrives, he is stunned that he was late, not knowing that he was doing something else? Two different minds working in one body. Other examples that come to mind was in The Doctor's Wife, when he just blurbs out "Another Ood he failed to say" in a sarcastic tone. Or in the newest episode, messing with the timeline with the Amy's, like he was curious to see what would happen? It would make sense if this was the outcome, but most likely not going to happen.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST

    Bwahahaha! Red & Blue ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Blue tie doc in a room full of Puppetdocs all wearing red ties? ROTFLMAOASTC! The God Complex is already my favourite episode of this season and I haven't even seen it yet. As for Sam and the many who don't buy the red light / green light and suss button pushing in TGWW - I haven't yet seen any other theory explaining this, the magtapes and the fluttering clock. Mine scares my pants off, but it is the simplest one that explains the facts. As to Ilfamy/Milfamy, if Milfamy puts in a reappearance I'm sorry, briannicus, but I for one won't be able to resist. Otherwise happy to just call the girl Amy. Birdsong in TEH? Must go listen to that. @doctortom, yeah, I think it would be too much of a cheat if this were all a dream lord trick. But the dream lord in the gangerdoc's body controlling the pandorica alliance, bonking river and calling himself the valeyard ... that would be a Moffatt sized payoff on this arc, don't you think?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 6:28 p.m. CST

    Naah, I don't see that happening

    by DoctorTom

    If you have the gangerDoc eventually becoming the Valeyard (or the Dream Lord), I see that as something that will be a payoff a year or two from now, not something that will wrap up this arc. The Doctor vs. The Dream Lord vs. Omega in a steel cage match for the 50th anniversary.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST


    by Kevin Bolinger

    The birdsong is easy to hear in TEH, When he runs back into Amelia's house, shouting that Prisoner Zero is there, and she whacks him with the cricket he comes too, Birdsong...

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 8:16 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    still waiting for a reply

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 9:52 p.m. CST

    Amy's bedroom

    by Dana

    Has anyone noticed that Amy's bedroom is Tardis blue?

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:19 p.m. CST


    by gotilk

    Whoops! I was checking SORRY! Checking my main e-mail now. Reply imminent.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:26 p.m. CST

    Tiny Bit Off-Topic

    by gotilk

    But if any of you are @craigyferg fans (Craig Ferguson) and you regularly watch The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson (the ONLY show where the host has a TARDIS on his desk EVERY night)... you will LOVE this... This guy has built his own working robot skeleton, very much like Geoff Peterson. If it were mine, I'd name it Pete Geofferson. Brilliant job! I love the George Takei meets Snagglepuss voice of Geoff. This guy uses a British speech synthesizer for his, but it's still brilliant. Any other Ferguson fans? He's a huge Doctor Who fan and has had Matt Smith and Karen Gillan on a couple (few?) times already. Best late night show on TV, period.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:28 p.m. CST


    by The Transformed Man

    I'm sure it's been pointed out, but the door to Amy's house looks like the TARDIS.

  • Sept. 13, 2011, 10:32 p.m. CST

    I was thinking of making

    by GeptaOO1

    a short fan fiction episode of doctor who.... But an alternate reality concept.... where the TARDIS is red, and it's a FIRE BOX..... and the doctors sluttily dressed companion would wear fishnets, shorter skirts than amy, and occasionally a t-shirt that says "The Angels Stole my Red Box"

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 12:52 a.m. CST


    by BiggusDickus

    In all seriousness, that's a great idea for a new take on The Master. As a yang to the Doctor's yin... With a slutty companion in fishnets, natch!

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 4:47 a.m. CST

    Forgive me for not remembering - Burning house on Amelia's painting...

    by wtriker1701

    Have we ever talked about young Amelia's painting of her house in TEH? The one, where she's painted her house burning? With the Duck Pond on the left side? It was said back then, that she had no parents and lived with her Aunt. But we never knew, what had happened to them, did we? Yes, at the end of series 5 we got them back in time for the wedding... but their absence had been never explained, had it? And should it have been, that her house had been burning back then, and probably had killed her parents before... how come, the house had been renewed? And she had been to live alone... save her Aunt? Or has it already been discussed at length? Then I'll apologize for not remembering it. Or had it been marked as probably very insignificant? Thanks for answers, fellow Whovians!

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 5:20 a.m. CST

    I suspect "Closing Time"

    by V'Shael

    will be set approximately 200 years after The God Complex. I think Closing Time will be like an extended farewell that Tennant got. He'll revisit Amy and Rory (who will have left him at some point) and he'll revisit Craig and have a little adventure there. And then he'll go to meet his death at Lake Silencio.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 5:32 a.m. CST

    Fenric in or out Episode 13? SPOILER ANSWER

    by Lidless

    Even the people at don't realise the pic they have. They think it's Odin. Look half way down. A Norseman. Playing chess. Wearing an eyepatch. Bit of a clincher, methnks.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 5:41 a.m. CST

    Fenric in or out Episode 13? SPOILER ANSWER continued

    by Lidless

    Better picture:

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 5:51 a.m. CST

    Fenric in Episode 13??? *spoilers*

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I believe this picture is the basis of a lot of the prior speculation, but I'd go with Odin myself, purely because he's a dude who hung around Asgard, which is a very nice place for a picnic, I hear. Plus, the Moff is on record for not having been a great fan of the later old Who TV stories so I would be sceptical about him revisiting them, even one of the better ones (or so say most people; I actually didn't like The curse of Fenric much at all.)

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Another bit of wild speculation about there being a duplicate doctor

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    You'll remember way back in tEH, how they used footage from 'The Sons of the Desert' and Rory said, "I've explained all the jokes" - well, that wasn't just a throwaway, inadvertant insult aimed towards Amy and the notion that women don't find Laurel and Hardy funny, oh no no no no no. You see, 'The Sons of the Desert' is also the name of the Laurel and Hardy fraternal organization, whose motto is: Duae tabulae rasae in quibus nihil scriptum est (literally: "Two blank slates on which nothing has been written"). And what better way to describe a newly minted but doubled up and corrupted Doctor who's doing all sorts of nonsense whilst another of him isn't? Right, this one's ready to filed under 'Half-arsed thoery number #747' - any objections?

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 7:14 a.m. CST


    by Perigee

    That whole group of shots in the beginning of the season -in my opinion - are huge important, and really under discussed. 11 might be a little whimsical, but he's serious about his time travel. It's pointless destruction of a classic piece of culture. There's no way he would just toss himself into that film; I've been saying that forever. The whole sequence is too long to be just a toss-off joke; it exists there for some purpose (IMO). There's got to be a payoff.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    Half-arse theory #748 - The Ultimate Weapon

    by veteran_of_mu

    Leave the red loose ...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 7:47 a.m. CST

    Half-arse theory #749 - The Ultimate Weapon

    by veteran_of_mu

    Sorry, last post sucked into the AICN ultimate weapon, the quotes bug. Trying again ... Let's assume, for the sake of half an arse, that I'm right about the magtape, the clock and the buttons. Then whichever Doc it is, he's going to a lot of trouble to get Rory to manipulate the time regulator. Why? It so happens that in addition to translating ancient Chinese texts, I have spent quite a lot of years working professionally as ... a programmer. Shh! Don't tell anyone! I'm trying to live it down. We old programmers used to do a lot of manipulating of time streams. Well, we called them text stream, but they're much the same thing. Causality is important and we learned to respect it the hard way. We would have programs that generated these streams and other programs that stored them and others that duplicated and redirected and interpreted them. And we'd bolt all these streams and programs together with things we called pipes and filters. You could even pipe a stream to a device. And one of the most fun devices you could pipe a stream to was called /dev/null. The null device that simply throws the contents of the stream away. ~Leave the red loose ...~ I think the Doc has just ruthlessly used Amy and Rory to construct a temporal disintegrator. Blue [Doc's tape device] into Red, Green into Blue, leave the Red loose. Meaning anyone who lands in young Amy's original Green stream is going to get piped directly to /dev/null. No Appleappuchia, no hand-bots, just gone. Remember the Doc at the start of the episode using the Sonic to lock on to Amy's time stream. The small act of vandalism that triggers the small-act-of-vandalism alarm. When the Doc attaches the time lens to the TARDIS console he says it is locked on to Amy's stream permanently. So ... now this is this weapon. It doesn't kill people. It just sends them to the green stream that pipes them directly into /dev/null. It makes them didn't happen. To use it you need only deliver them to the green end of the pipe. Which is why the Doc no longer needs the time lens or the magtape. Because he has the temporal coordinates of the green end of the pipe stored in the sonic. That Sonic just turned into the ultimate weapon.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 7:47 a.m. CST

    Okay, let's just suppose Fenric was in the finale...

    by V'Shael

    The conflict between Fenric and the Doctor could be seen as an eternal conflict, or war. The eye-patch as worn by Kovarian, could be a symbol that she's a wolf of Fenric or something. The picture of the chess board and the viking looking guy here ; does appear as though one of the pieces, like a king or queen, is undergoing some subtle transformation on the board. Like a regeneration perhaps. That's how I imagine the Doctor plays chess. When one of Fenrics pawns gets promoted, from a black pawn to a WHITE queen. River Song.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:05 a.m. CST

    Ooh! The Red Setting!

    by veteran_of_mu

    I think we've just seen the creation of the Red Setting. Remember River thought the Doc could use it against anyone who was trying to interfere with the Sonic ... Okay, where do I buy an authorised copy of the Library Sonic? I want to check it out ...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:20 a.m. CST

    Actually, scrub my Laurel and Hardy comment

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Because the clip was actually from 'The Flying Deuces', so that (mostly) obliterates my theory. But I'll tell you what - theory #749 is a winner for me; it's just so crazy, ridiculous and unnecessairly complicated there's no way it can't be true. Plus, it would be fun for there to have been some programming / networking riffs in the show, because we haven't had a few for a while. So, the question would be, if I've understood this correctly, if the Doctor's effectively locking off Amy's timestream, who is he locking it off from? My Doctor? Kovarian? The Silence? Why? And how will it be resolved - 'What happened to him?' 'Oh, he fell down a black hole' - perhaps? So, theory #749 - awesome! On the other hand, I don't believe a word of it. :/

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:30 a.m. CST

    Perigee - the scenes at the start of TIA

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Not sure why I thought they were in tEH - I must be getting old or something - but regarding those scenes; well, we have the Doc in a pickle twixt Charles II and Matilda ('Mighty in Battle'), then he's in the flying deuces, then he's going all Hogan's Heroes. Hmm. You know, as much as the Doc is Mr. Manipulation, this, in my mind, happens too far out of the chronology for me to think it's anything other than a series of fun sketches whose sole purpose is to adhere to the rule of cool. Question - what colour bow tie is the Doctor wearing during these sections, and can you hear any bird song? You know, this is why I liked SitL / FotD so much - it had loads of amazing set up, symbolism, characterisation and what have you whilst giving you all the answers the following week. Oh, except for the answers it didn't give you, which were most of them. Bloody Moffat...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:38 a.m. CST

    @ithrat - pshaw, you know my methods ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how crazy, ridiculous and unnecessarily complicated, must be the truth. Hmm. Impossible. There's a word to conjure with ...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:40 a.m. CST

    Where has MOV got to?

    by veteran_of_mu

    We're working half our arses off here and not a word of discouragement!

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 8:46 a.m. CST

    Quick question(s)

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Wasn't the exhaust / temporal engine room on Apulapapapapapapachia also somewhat blue? And did those temporal engines remind anyone else of the ones that shifted the eponymous restaurant at the end of the Universe forwards and backwards in time? And if we are seeing the creation of the red settings, why are we seeing SOB Doc do them? And are they so named simply because of the colour of his tie? I DEMAND ANSWERS, AND I DEMAND THEM YESTERDAY!!!!

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 9:03 a.m. CST

    So, that skellington at the bottom of the lake

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Someone fiddling around with the new, red settings, perhaps? Nah, that can't be right...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 9:15 a.m. CST

    Two new ideas as to the solution of the season

    by HornOrSilk

    One. The Doctor finds out how Rory survived and uses it as his out here. We were told Rory's survival will be significant somehow. Two. The Doctor dies, but has his consciousness saved -- and then put into a ganger body. This is more than just a ganger-Doctor who survives, but it is the Doctor using what was established in the Library to survive. We were told, after all, River's sonic would also come up this season.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 11:07 a.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    still waiting

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 11:47 a.m. CST

    lidless - that might not be Fenric

    by DoctorTom

    for all we know, that's a future incarnation of the Doctor, one who's gone down the dark path further, and the Doctor's playing chess against himself. Or, a regeneration of a gangerDoctor. <br> Yes, there's the viking influence, but from the picture I was also getting a bit of a 'Holy Roman Empire' vibe (probably the pointy helmet making me think of a papal hat). <br> Some people have said that's probably Mark Gatiss under the makeup, so there's still other possibilities like it being Professor Lazarus back again. Or, it's the Black Guardian looking different, or someone else looking like the Black Guardian. (Why does it tie in with Gatiss? I was thinking that the original actor Valentine Dyall played a character The Man in Black, and that Gatiss did the role in an update for one of the BBC Radio channels a few years ago). <br> <br> I will admit the chess angle suggests Fenric - but that might be in there just to misdirect the hardcore fans and get us doing speculations like this.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 11:52 a.m. CST

    The thing about the skeleton at the bottom of the lake

    by DoctorTom

    When the Doctor was killed by the astronaut, he wasn't holding a sonic screwdriver. <br> So, if the teaser with the skeleton holding the sonic screwdriver isn't just supposed to be symbolic of what's happened/going to happen and is supposed to be taken literally: <br> First question: Did Rory put the sonic in the Doctor's hand when he went to give the Doctor the Viking funeral? <br> Second question: Who turned the sonic on? Rory? The skeleton? Someone underwater? <br> <br> Just as a side note, the sonic didn't have to be on in order to see that someone was saved - in Silence in the Library that was something on the side. So, was the teaser indicating that the sonic is going to be important? <br> <br> Hornorsilk, that's a good theory you have there - dying and putting his consciousness into a ganger body. They'll need to make sure they also have a bit of Doctor DNA around to throw into the mix. It will just be a question of whether the ganger body is made before or after he dies.

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 12:44 p.m. CST


    by HornOrSilk

    I am guessing it would be made before his death; he probably has it pre-planned knowing he is going to his death. He might not even know if this will work or not! And, in a strange way, I'm thinking something of the Cybermen will be used as a help in finishing the new-improved screwdriver (if this idea has merit). But yes, the preview made me think of the screwdriver and its significance. And it reminds me of Silence in the Library in many ways...

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 1:06 p.m. CST


    by GeptaOO1

    I still haven't gotten that e-mail

  • Sept. 14, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    Viking playing chess...(speculative spoilers)

    by S