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'Time and the Rani, I have to admit, isn't one of the things I'm most proud of in my career.' - Andrew Morgan, Director, 'Time and the Rani.' Your Friday DOCTOR WHO Docback Is Here!!
Did young Steven Moffat have any sense of what lay ahead? (image contributed by Dr. Stark)
Merrick here...
...with a look at DOCTOR WHO's "Time and the Rani," aka Story # 148, which aired September 7-28, 1987.
image via tardis.wikia
image via pennlive.com
Which brings me to a question (one of those instances where I am asking for input and guidance): The Rani's TARDIS figures into this episode:
2) Matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity. Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example. "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well. "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?" Is NOT good.
And, above all...
3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way. Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning. Lack of courtesy will receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated. Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.
Readers Talkback
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June 10, 2011, 11:14 a.m. CST
Wow- that's a LOOOOONG post Merrick! Thoughts later.
by sam jacksons wig
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Can't see that changing anytime soon...
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....is that it was written for a returning Colin Baker, who left the show, shall we say rather pissed off and even refused to film his regeneration scene. This is why the character is seen lying on his front.... ..it's actually Sylvester McCoy in a harpo marx type wig playing the whole thing.
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I have to say -- I have always been a fan of both the 6th and 7th Doctors, but I have found many of their televised stories to be ones which I do not appreciate. I like the actors and their characterization -- but felt sad for them to be given so little right to work with. Time and the Rani is one of the worst Doctor Who stories. There are, as you say, good things about it; but it just doesn't work. It is a big "shock" to the system -- when I first saw it, I didn't even know about Colin's departure, and I thought there had to be a season skipped because we had just got started with Colin's Doctor. I was, of course, right and wrong at the same time -- as I would learn. And this is a much better regeneration scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFahehmZFVs
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What's the first thing that comes to mind about this story? Worst. Regeneration. Ever.
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This is a great idea!
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I think in this story they were implying that a TARDIS without the chameleon circuit on would look like that. Of course, I thought that they established in pre-JNT stories that a TARDIS without a chameleon circuit would look normally like a box (end of The War Games). <br> <br> As for the sound, if you go by River Song's comment, then *everybody* in the classic series left the brakes on. Of course, in the classic series you never see a TARDIS out with 6 Time Lord pilots, so maybe leaving the brakes on is a sensible precaution when you only have one pilot normally. I think that when Matt Smith has the TARDIS go into stealth mode, his mention of it draining a lot of power is only part of the reason he rarely does it. He also likes the sound the TARDIS makes when the brakes are on. Since Sexy didn't comment on it during The Doctor's Wife, I'm guessing she doesn't mind the brakes being left on either. <br> <br> As an interesting point about leaving the brakes on, it makes watching Terror of the Autons more interesting. When the Time Lord materializes to warn the Doctor about the Master, not only is he appearing (apparently) without a TARDIS, but the "non-TARDIS" has also left *it's* brakes on when materializing.
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I just don't get the obsession with her! She was fun while she lasted, but the show has definitely moved on now. You should have started with Genesis Of The Daleks, it really is one of my favourites. And what's with that photo of Moffat at the top of the page? Was that *really* necessary? Although I'll say this, if that look of total absorption from reading 'Doctor Who And The Daleks' doesn't show you that he was once just a normal fan like the rest of you, then I don't know what will. And what's with the shirt? It's nothing short of ghastly. Urgh.
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June 10, 2011, 11:26 a.m. CST
By this stage auntie beeb was firmly in camp "Let's fuck Doctor Who..."
by sam jacksons wig
Their lack of interest in the show as a whole is widely on display here. The only really nice touch to the episode(s) is where McCoy is allowed to wear clothing from past Doctors- and it was a chance to go "OOHH! Patrick Troughtons coat" et.c. Bonnie Langford remains continually annoying- her "squueeem and squuueeeeem and squuueeeeeeem until I'm sick sick sick!!!!" Just William stint as a kid kept playing in the back of my mind and completely dis-allowed me to like anything about the character. I was glad to see the back of her come "Dragonfire."
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June 10, 2011, 11:27 a.m. CST
"is a TARDIS supposed to completely blend with it's surroundings?"
by Meglos
Yes. But its also implied that the Chameleon Circuit can be manipulated by its Time Lord operator to make the TARDIS appear as anything they want. Which is what the Rani has done here as she obviously doesn't care what the Lakeryans think. Also, there is an easter egg on the TATR DVD where they've updated the regeneration sequence that actually uses Colin Baker's face CGI'd briefly onto Sylvester's.
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June 10, 2011, 11:31 a.m. CST
MOV- the photo is what it is meant to be- a nice touch. Necessary or not, it is not your average run of the mill Who photo.
by sam jacksons wig
I appreciate it. And why not start with the shit and work your way up? Get rid of all of the good stuff and you have no where left to go. (and I realise that would take some time as there is ALOT of good stuff in Who.) Remember, we knew that this topic was coming for over a week now. Complaining at this stage just seems redundant. Sorry, mate.
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June 10, 2011, 11:31 a.m. CST
Oh, and I agree- the Rani is not coming back. That's one villain I am not clamouring to see.
by sam jacksons wig
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In the Pantheon of Assitants, she is clearly somewhere in sub level 6. She really causes me not to want to watch the early episodes of McCoy's term.
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June 10, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST
meglos- the TARDIS is supposed to be out of perception;....
by sam jacksons wig
which is different from blending with it's surroundings. It does have that capability, yes I grant you, but it doesn't work. Hence the iconic blue box.
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...... unfortunately the TARDIS perception filter gave everyone at the BBC the illusion that she wasn't annoying. DAMN YOU, SEXY!!!!!
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...we were left with the street-wise (we knew this because of a LOUD biker type jacket and an attitude) ACE and her fucking Nitro-9. I made it through Langford, but that is when I just stopped watching altogether. Yes, I admit it. I gave up on McCoy and televised Who at that stage. Beeb wasn't interested, so why should I be?
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Anyone who seriously wants her to come back should watch Dimensions in Time first. That should cure them of such silly notions.
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Well done for taking a reasonable approach to what is a not-good Who story. I think there's something to be said for the fact that both Colin Baker's and Sylvester McCoy's openers are bad. Yet one went on to gain a solid place in the heart of fandom and the other was Colin Baker. And Mel never gets any better as I recall. She continues to scweam and scweam until she is replaced by my first crush - Ace.
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And just a wee bit jealous too. You've started down a rather daunting path, but one that will ultimately reward you. It seems like you have quite a hearty crew onboard with you via this Docback, who will no doubt point you in the direction of the better episodes and warn you about the lesser episodes. I refuse to call any story 'bad', mainly because I've always been able to find something to enjoy in each and every episode. I merely ask that you keep in mind where the show was (especially in terms of the financial support it was receiving) at the time and just enjoy it for what it was/is. I hope you have a brain like a sponge because you have many, many episodes to remember and even more fun facts to absorb about the show. I'd still like to know why you started with this story and not 'An Unearthly Child' or 'Genesis'? Just curious!
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I'm personally not obsessed with The Rani. From what I've seen, I'm not terribly impressed by the character. Readers had expressed interest in coverage of upcoming DVDs -'Time and the Rani' comes out on DVD in the U.S. next week (Tuesday) so this seemed a fine opportunity to discuss it. The photo at the top of the page...I thought was kind of magical and is meant as a sincere tip-of-the-hat and tribute. My apologies if it rubs you the wrong direction.
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Starting with Remembrance of the Daleks, quality definitely improved overall, though there were difinite WTF moments like "well, it's the Silver anniversary and Cybermen are silver, so we'll have them in a story".
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I didn't mean to come across as 'complaining'. And it was merely a surprise to see that photo, that's all. I'll get back to doing whatever it was I was doing before I stumbled in here! Enjoy the Docback boys and girls and Doodlebops.
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At least the Moff has aged well (the hair is exactly the same) :p Agree about the Rani, all this talk of TATR surprised me when it first started coming up. The Rani was a crap camp villain. At least if she is in the future of the current Dr Who, I'd hope she is a million light-years from the character Kate O'Mara played. Personally watching TATR put me off watching Dr Who and was responsible for me missing most of the McCoy years. Considering that one of my first memories is hiding behind the Sofa whilst Jon Pertwee fought the Green Death, this was a big deal for the young Evilmeister.
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June 10, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST
Okay, Man_of_Vertue, you said you can find something good in any Doctor Who story...
by DoctorTom
what did you see that was good in The Twin Dilemma? Time and the Rani might have had the worst regeneration, but The Twin Dilemma was definitely the worst 1st post-regeneration story for any Doctor (even the non-existent post-regeneration story for Eccleston by its very non-existence is better than the huge steaming turd that was Colin Baker's first story).
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McCoy did a decent job, as he was already playing "professor types" in kids tv, but I don't appreciate him as much as Colin Baker. He did have one of the best stories though, in rememberance of the daleks.
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June 10, 2011, 11:59 a.m. CST
Oh god!! Dimensions in Albert Square!!! ARRRGGHHH!!! DoctorTom.....
by sam jacksons wig
....that bilge was wiped from my memory until this very moment! Floating heads!!! A fat Tom Baker dressed like a tomato given the shittest dialogue ever! And a companion to the Ran known as Cyrian who looked like one of the Pet Shop Boys..... SHITE!!!!!!
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you could see the wheels coming off during Trial of a Time Lord (mainly the 14th episode - I wish they had stuck with the Holmes/Saward original)
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I feel she was one of the worst companions ever! Her voice was grating, and she acted weird. I was glad she was not around long, Ace was a far better fit with McCoy's Doctor. I loved how she always called him Professor...lol
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I didn't mean to come across that way Merrick, although I can see that I look like a complete twat now that I've reread my post about the photo. It was indeed a rather nice touch and I most certainly haven't been rubbed the wrong way. Late nights and early starts, combined with not 'coming across' very well via the internet, have well and truly misinterpreted my meaning. Even that sounds like a load of bollocks now that I've written it, but there it is anyway. Didn't mean to upset anyone, although it isn't the first time I have, and it surely won't be the last! Ha ha! Keep up the fine work Merrick, you're doing a stirling job.
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June 10, 2011, 12:01 p.m. CST
SJW - as the Doctor would say, I'm sorry, I'm so very, very sorry
by DoctorTom
when I mentioned Dimensions in Time I didn't mean to be picking at scabs that should be left alone. Just try to forget about it by thinking about The Curse of Fatal Death instead.
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Yet one went on to gain a solid place in the heart of fandom and the other was Colin Baker
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With the audio plays.
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Thank you - very much appreciated. No worries whatsoever.
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June 10, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST
doctortom- have not seen anything from "remembrance" all the way up to "survival"
by sam jacksons wig
I have never bothered to go back and revisit, either. Should I?
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Yes, I've got to agree. The BBC were clearly not giving a fuck then. It was a shame, as they should have just cancelled it and had done with it.
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June 10, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST
Actually, Bonnie Langford somewhat redeemed herself in Big Finish also
by DoctorTom
She was easily tolerable in The Fires of Vulcan and in The One Doctor (one of the BF releases that I highly recommend)
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June 10, 2011, 12:09 p.m. CST
MOV- you don't need to apologise. You are entitled to say what you will...
by sam jacksons wig
...however what you did say sounded a tad ungrateful. "Hi, I'm Merrick and I've provided this home for all WHO fans..." " Hi Merrick, I'm MOV and I really don't like how you've decorated...... why didn't you do it this way because that's what I would have enjoyed." Sorry mate, but that IS how the post firmly comes across. You even got Merrick to apologise when clearly he shouldn't have.
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..that even after the series was cancelled, the Audio plays continued the story. Baker, McCoy and McGann all had a bunch of further adventures. Even Tom Baker is getting in on it.
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June 10, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST
SJW - yes, there's some good ones and some tolerable ones in there
by DoctorTom
Ghost Light and The Curse of Fenric are good, though not totally without flaws. After that, The Happiness Patrol and The Greatest Show in the Galaxy have parts to recommend them. You have to overlook Bertie Bassett as a villain for Happiness Patrol, though. There are some nice parts in it and you basically get the Doctor bringing down Thatcher over the course of one day. <br> <br> Silver Nemesis was a waste, really, but not as bad as Time and the Rani. <br> <br> Battlefield definitely has a few things recommending it - the Brigadier, laying the groundwork for the New Adventures, references to a future Doctor, but suffers from having a 3 part story structure stuck into 4 parts. Many nifty ideas in there unfortunately compromised by some of the execution.
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The Twin Dilemma? It came after The Caves of Androzani, so it always was going to be tough, but I can see flashes of brilliance in Colin's performance that he's only recently been able to build upon in the audio adventures. As they say, a workman is only as good as his tools, and Colin just wasn't given the right tools to work with at the time. Okay, now I really am gone!
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You're too forgiving ;)
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The lead clown always freaks me out, the performance was so well done! His evil smile, sends chills up my spine!
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June 10, 2011, 12:16 p.m. CST
After Twin Dilema I thought we were well and truly fucked....
by sam jacksons wig
....I mean, we didn't get anything else for nearly a year as I recall. The electric "Caves of Androzani" saw Davidson out and HERE'S THE NEW DOC! HAVE 4 EPISODES! THAT AREN'T VERY GOOD! And then nothing for close to a year. It was also a mistake to originally play Bakers Doc as an unlikeable bastard. You don't try and kill Peri, you DROOL over her!!!!
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June 10, 2011, 12:16 p.m. CST
I agree, Donkey lasher, but you have to consider that it's really the novels
by DoctorTom
The New Adventures and Missing Adventures from Virgin that kept things alive until the Paul McGann movie and BBC taking back the license. (And still, we had Bernice Summerfield books and audios after that. It was the Bernice Summerfield audios that let Big Finish prove to the BBC that they could handle doing an audio series and let them get the Doctor Who license, so never underestimate the importance of Bernice Summerfield in Doctor Who history ;) ). <br> <br> There was also the BBC 8th Doctor and Past Doctor adventures before the Big Finish audios. I'm not sure if we would ever had the audios come out if there hadn't been a proven audience for Doctor Who because of the novels first.
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June 10, 2011, 12:19 p.m. CST
sjw - you're right, that was probably one of the dumbest production decisions ever made on Doctor Who
by DoctorTom
forget the Absorbaloff and the Scribble Monster, or all of season 24 - the idea of sticking Colin Baker in that coat, showing a psychotically disagreeable personality (which granted, mellowed a lot in season 22) and a story that would have been rejected by the producers of Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers serials in the '30's and '40's.....then END THE SEASON ON THAT!?!?!? <br> <br> It's a wonder ANYBODY came back for the next season.
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June 10, 2011, 12:20 p.m. CST
Merrick- not very far in and you're getting some geek gold here mate!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 12:22 p.m. CST
doctortom - will check out the greatest show in the galaxy, then....
by sam jacksons wig
...after all, this thread made me re-watch Time and the Rani without the aid of medication or alcohol.
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June 10, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST
Really need to catch up on the audio plays. Where's HornOrSilk when I need him???!!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST
Good stuff Merrick! / Seven and Eleven
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
That was a very interesting read, Merrick. Not enough writers on this site - except Harry - actually take the time to talk about the geeky things they love and why that's the case. I have to admit that I've not seen TATR for a very long time (probably since it first aired) but I feel as though I should go back and revisit it with adult eyes. I'm a big fan of the Seventh Doctor. I loved the way he would manipulate his enemies and I definitely see that side of The Doctor in Eleven. Whilst Ten wore his heart on his sleeve, Moffat has done a great job at showing that Eleven formulates long-term plans which he sometimes keeps from even his closest allies. That's definitely a Seven trait (which was explored even further in the novels). Watching Seven manipulate Davros into using the Hand Of Omega or Ace break her hold over The Destroyer, one can't help but be reminded of Eleven working out that Amy is one of the Flesh but not telling either her or Rory until he's got all of the facts. I'm very glad to see that kind of sneakiness back with this incarnation.
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June 10, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST
Oh, and in Doctor Who merchandise news, for what it's worth (one possibly for SJW)
by DoctorTom
(meant to originally post in this thread but accidentally hit the Captain Jack back in Who thread - I suffered The Curse of the Multiple Tabs Open). <br> <br> I just saw that the audiobook for Ghost Light, read by Ian Hogg (who played a part in the original story) is out now. I just ordered it. SJW, if you don't want to plunge into the actual DVD for the story, you could try the audiobook. <br> I also just ordered Time Unincorporated 3 (I think this one is writings on the new series - nice to have more stuff from Mad Norwegian Press) and Faction Paradox: A romance in 12 parts. I'm surprised to see new Faction Paradox stuff out. It's from Obverse books, though, the same people doing the Iris Wildthyme collections now.
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It contains the great line, "Sleep is for tortoises!" and it has snails as bad guys! And while I appreciate Sylvester McCoy's enthusiasm, his stories are too cringeworthy for me. When I finally was able to confiscate some VHS's of Seventh Doctor stories after wanting to see them for so long, I was kind of embarrassed. I didn't think it was the same show. Paradise Fucking Towers? The Greatest Show in The Galaxy? Sorry. At least Battlefield has the Brig, but the rest of it kinda sucks. Fenric was a cool story, though. Ghost Light had some good ideas and I appreciated Ace. Survival features McCoy and Ainley in their hammiest performance yet (might as well have been a pantomime), but it has some good points. Time and The Rani. Good God. Merrick you found a lot more to like in this story than I did. And I agree about not wanting to see The Rani again. I think people just get excited about other Timelords, but give me some new baddies, please. I did learn the term, "Luddite", from Mark of the Rani however, so there's that.
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I also can't believe I have to wait over two fucking months for a new episode of DW.
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First, I get worried when I see Man of Vertue say the Rani isn't coming back. I'm sure it's just my paranoia though. I have to agree with almost everyone elses opinion, regarding Kate O'Mara, Bonnie Langford, Mel, The Rani, and the episode itself. Doesn't the Tetrap tongue look EXACTLY like a dogs penis? I love McCoys doctor. Ka Faraq Gatri. Times Champion. And I even liked Mel's going away scene in Dragonfire, but for the most part I could never stand her. In the New Adventure series of Virgin books, wasn't there a plot line that Doc 7 took what should have been a minor injury for Doc 6, and somehow forced himself to come forward and regenerate? Because the Seventh doctor would be more able to deal with the fear of the Valeyard, which was crippling the Sixth Doctor?
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enough already.
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June 10, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST
Doctortom- no, I'm thinking of Genesis of the Daleks and Logopolis.....
by sam jacksons wig
,,,,, it's the only way to heal my poorly hurt mind!!!
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The manipulative forward thinking planning part of Times Champion, does seem to be back in spades in Doc 11.
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June 10, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST
At some point over the coming weeks, maybe someone more familiar with the show
by V'Shael
can explain to me the whole Faction Paradox thing. I wasn't reading the books at that stage, and god knows I've never understood the wiki pages on the subject at all.
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June 10, 2011, 12:38 p.m. CST
cookylamoo - you're here to tell US that? Wrong time wrong place matey!!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 12:38 p.m. CST
SJW - I'm shocked to read you didn't like Ace, buddy!
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
SHOCKED. She was probably my favorite companion until Jack Harkness came along (believe it or not). On that subject, wasn't S1 Jack Harkness awesome? SO much better than the angst-filled ganger who replaced him in Torchwood. My favorite Harkness scene is probably the one in Bad Wolf where a naked JH produces a tiny gun obviously hidden between his butt cheeks to obliterate the two murderous robots. That's pretty funny.
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June 10, 2011, 12:41 p.m. CST
CBTML- revisiting with adult eyes doesn't help mate....
by sam jacksons wig
...I tried it, it didn't work so I am now attempting to remove my youngest daughters eyes so I can try again. BRING ON THE WALL!!!!!
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June 10, 2011, 12:50 p.m. CST
I thought it interesting that Sarah Jane's neighbor girl was "Rani"
by zacUpquark
... although it likely means nothing. I'll agree with the "River was fucking with him" sentiment for the brakes. I'd think it highly unlikely The Master would do something just for the sound effect ...
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June 10, 2011, 12:50 p.m. CST
cbtml- it was more the attitude and dodgy past that turned me off....
by sam jacksons wig
.....and in truth I didn't really give her or who at that time much of a chance. We went from Mel who I despised to Ace, and what seemed like an attempt to cash in on teen angst. I mean, uprooted by a time storm? I couldn't get over the premise. Jac k Harkness however- agree with you so much my friend! Trinny and Suxanna have never looked better, and the vain son of a bitch that is ol' Jacky-Boy just lapped it all up!! I enjoyed his back and forth with Tennant in Utopia regarding why the Doc had abandoned him... "You're wrong..... Jack...." Genius!
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Ace's whole character arc was one of the best things about the character.
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Did Ace's character go through some wibbly wobbly timey wimey? I can't remember
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June 10, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST
v'shael - as I said, I didn't really give it much time.
by sam jacksons wig
I felt the beeb made the character too cliched, both in terms of attitude and in dress sense (after all, she didn't dress much like the traditional young lady)- throw her in an attitude stereotypical jacket complete with sew-on patches.... .....and the main issue was I didn't stick around for the finish. My fault.
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June 10, 2011, 1:07 p.m. CST
Ace was one of the Wolves Of Fenric
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
If you watch "The Curse Of Fenric", it's revealed that the way in which Ace meets The Doctor is all part of a plan conceived and executed by Fenric, in order to help free him from the prison that The Doctor left him in. Crafty old Seven knows this, of course. She's better than you remember!
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Scream now, I'll save you later.
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[pedant]That line is actually from The Talons of Weng-Chiang[/pedant]
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One of the things I learned when watching the Doctor of that era was to look for anything at all written by Robert Holmes.
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I'm looking forward to this continuing series. I love Doctor Who (especially Jon Pertwee, in case you couldn't tell). Generally, Merrick, you are correct about the middle eight, but there was one instance of an alternate opening theme used in a Jon Pertwee story when it was broadcast in Australia. I give you the "Delaware Theme". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESr3SetdZfs Sorry to geek out on you in my first post, but I hope you found it interesting.
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...Not sure why you corrected my already correct answer re:the TARDIS' chameleon circuit with a bit of nu-series technobabble that wasn't around in 1987 when this story was made (and we were talking about the Rani's TARDIS, not the Doctor's), but...hooray for you? I mean, your answer is no less wrong, but whatever...
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June 10, 2011, 1:17 p.m. CST
My wife has a much better memory than I! Amusing story she has just reminded me of....
by sam jacksons wig
... a while ago Bonnie Langford was in an ice skating show on the telly which my wife watches (no, NOT me before anyone says!;)) At the time I was embroiled in a bitter custody battle with a broken DVD player over a Family Guy season 2 disc that was lodged inside. I was trying to pry open the front drawer with a knife when she said (and I quote): "Hoi, Who-boy..." *SJW looks up whilst still working the knife* "Didn't she used to be in Doctor Who?" *SJW looks slowly at the television and GROANS outloud...... .....the groan to be replaced with a rather loud scream of FUCK!!!! as the knife goes through my thumb... So it's official- Bonnie Langford caused me to bleed.
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June 10, 2011, 1:20 p.m. CST
Now that has piqued my interest!!! One of the Wolves of Fenric, indeed!!
by sam jacksons wig
I may have to have a butchers after all if this is the case!!!
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June 10, 2011, 1:21 p.m. CST
tbrosz - WITH YOU THERE!!! One of my fave episodes ever, mate!!! Loved it!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 1:24 p.m. CST
meglos - must have read it wrong. Apologies. Hooray for me......
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 1:24 p.m. CST
v'shael, just the fact of having a character arc for Ace was one of the best things about the Cartmel era
by DoctorTom
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June 10, 2011, 1:26 p.m. CST
donkey_lasher (and sjw) - the whole "timestorm" thing is explained in The Curse of Fenric
by DoctorTom
I don't want to say specifically why because I don't want to spoil it for sjw - the whole thing with it and Ace could easily have been a Moffat/11th Doctor thing transplanted onto a past Doctor.
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**I merely ask that you keep in mind where the show was (especially in terms of the financial support it was receiving) at the time and just enjoy it for what it was/is. I hope you have a brain like a sponge because you have many, many episodes to remember and even more fun facts to absorb about the show.** When I was initially exposed to this series back in the early/mid-80s, I lacked the maturity and clarity to see past its frequently dodgy production values. I could see (what I considered to be) the VAST POTENTIAL of the series, but I felt like it was far from meeting said potential. I understood it, but I didn't "get" it. AND, I don't think I was "in the zone" in terms of keeping up with then show's varying tones at that time. Years later...I'm finding my experience with DW's older episodes markedly different. This perspective is aided tremendously by my own subsequent experiences within the television and film industries. I.e. I'm now able to see past the shortcomings and appreciate the heart, soul, and intent of the show. So far, I'm loving it - warts and all. ***I hope you have a brain like a sponge because you have many, many episodes to remember and even more fun facts to absorb about the show.*** This is the first time in a long time I've cared enough about a TV show (or movie for that matter) to even effort absorbing every detail. I've recently found myself purchasing DVDs not for the stories themselves (which are rentable on discs or streaming on Netflix) - but for the extras the DVDs carry (which Netflix often does not provide). And, yes, it's already painfully...sometimes aggrivatingly...evident how behind-the-scenes movements and budgetary regrets often thwarted the show's ability to be all it could be. I'd say that's nothing new in the entertainment business, but in DW's case...on which the production was often working with so little to begin with...I can easily conjure how wrenching the money and political considerations must've been. I now see DW as something of an improbable miracle.
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June 10, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST
sjw - "So it's official- Bonnie Langford caused me to bleed. "
by DoctorTom
Sorry for the pain that it caused, but that's a hilarious story. Thanks for sharing!
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June 10, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST
And, with only 2 1/2 hours into the thread's existence, we're already #5 for the day
by DoctorTom
with Warren Beatty and Dick Tracy about to get trounced. Keep up the good pace, fellow talkbackers!
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I probably let the cat out of the bag a little there.
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June 10, 2011, 1:37 p.m. CST
I'm really looking forward to your article about the episodes that got you into the show, Merrick
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
I've been looking forward to that one for a while.
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Anybody looking for a lot of continuity or scientific consistency from "Doctor Who" is going to have a very frustrating life. Yeah, many things in the series don't tie up together very well, and a lot of things just don't tie up at all, but what the heck. Watch the show and have fun. Let anyone who thinks they could hold continuity together over hundreds of hours, dozens of writers, and many years of production cast the first stone.
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Unfortunately, PBS didn't show these guys (or they came on at times I was never awake for) so I can't really comment on them other than I have always liked McCoy's look and I thought he did a fine job in the Doctor Who TV movie. Thanks to the internet, I finally got to see some (hint, very little) of C. Baker's Doc and wasn't too impressed. Always seemed a bit of an ass to me. Being at the impressionable age of 8 when I first met the Doctor (and it was Tom Baker on top of that!) it was hard for me to let go when he left. I always thought it was a BIG no-no to ever try to "replace" a character. Being 8, I didn't really understand the concept of regenerations and all I had to go on is what they did to Bo and Luke Duke trying to replace them with those two fake cousins (who also happened to be a blonde and dark haired country cousins who could drive the crap out of a car!) Well after the intial shock, I finally gave Davidson's Doctor a chance and kinda liked him (still suffering from Hazzard syndrome mind you) and watched until I could no longer find Doctor Who on my tv. Since then, I have had the pleasure to go back and see Pertwee's Doctor and I really did enjoy his run and of course jumped on board with NuWho as soon as it was available to me! I wish that Eccleston's Doctor would have stayed a little longer because by the time I had just gotten used to him he was out the door!
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Let anybody who can tie all the continuity together explain how Atlantis got destroyed at least 3 separate times.
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June 10, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST
tbrosz - you're correct- even something as simple as the Docs age...
by sam jacksons wig
...953, 900, 905, 907 and so on and so on..... but it doesn't diminish from the overall fantastic-ness (is that a word? IT IS NOW!) of the product!!!
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3 seperate timelines that diverged somehow? :P I know, Im being a smart ass.. couldn't help it!
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June 10, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST
Guys, don't concern yourselves discussing past WHO events...
by sam jacksons wig
..if no-one had mentioned Ace as a potential bastard then I wouldn't have been interested in the story and would not at this moment (whilst I am not on here) be seeking it out on tinternet..... Thank you, sirs!!!!
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Evertime I try to "set things in order" as far as Who goes... I just repeat the mantra... "Not straight! Wibbly Wobbly!" Somehow it makes the universe right again!
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And its history has been changed more than once. Done and done. :)
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June 10, 2011, 1:51 p.m. CST
doctortom- my wife had a shit-eating grin on her face when she reminded me.....
by sam jacksons wig
...however, it's a good job that my (and her) profession allowed me to deal with the blood objectively. The DVD player ended up in the fucking trash!!!!
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I wish that Eccleston's Doctor would have stayed a little longer
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June 10, 2011, 1:54 p.m. CST
The professions of SJW and his wife... My guess:
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
Vampires. £7 an hour. Must have own pointy teeth.
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but which one was the first, and does this mean that the world as a whole never got to know the glory of "Nuzzing in Ze vurld can ztop me now!"? :)
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Professional wrestlers - they have to deal with blood a lot. (Gets mental image of sjw jumping off the top rope to body slam dioxholster in the middle of the ring.)
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Are you saying that you also wished that he had stayed longer or did I mistype something (which has been known to happen quite frequently)?
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...literally. Nu-Who. Nothing since '96. Eccleson and RTD give us a show that not only I but my wife and kids can sit and love. Then, he leaves. With one of the best exit lines in WHO existence.... ..and JUST WHO is this David Tennant bastard???? Well..... ;)
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June 10, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST
the_mad_groper - you have a great method to retain sanity.
by sam jacksons wig
I, on the other hand, rely on a nice glass- nay- bottle or seven of beautiful Australian red wine.....
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I have all of the twilight movies and books!!!! DON'T DISS THE MEYER!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Thank you!!!
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...okay, I'll take a HUGE pay cut!!! ;) ;) ;)
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Ok, I'm back. Yes, the 7th Doctor and Ace get much better; Ace really is a template for much of what came later. They didn't have the budget, and so sometimes things just are not as good as they could have been - but there is something good in it (and the BF audios also add to that). Remembrance of the Daleks is ok; Silver Nemesis is ok (just too bad it was gutted and was really Remembrance Part II)... Battlefield is ok (though would have been cooler if done as planned, with transformers ;) )-- but the gems are Ghostlight and Curse of Fenric. Yes, there is darkness in Ace, yes, there is timey-wimey with Ace. They add to this in the audios, too, from time to time. Oh, and Mel really improved with BF. The problem, again, is they didn't know what to do with her on tv, so her character was done poorly. Don't blame Bonnie. Her BF audios add to her (hey, she even fell in with Davros for a bit!) and she is ok as a companion. She also does some good with the 6th Doctor and Evelyn...
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That method only works for dealing with Time traveling physicians... for dealing with other losses of sanity (ie. my kids).. well, that's why God invented vanilla vodka and coca-cola!
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http://tinyurl.com/3arspr6
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His name says it all.
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6ft, 202 lbs. Shaven head to hide baldness and greyness. Fondness for japanese food, red wine and fisn n chips. (yes!!) Hit the gym 3 times a week (down from 5) which is just over the road from the practice where I make my living. 5 tattoos, which I love dearly. One of them done by a world champion. Dad owned his own business, but I decided at an early age that I would break the mould and seek a living outside of it all. However, it did allow me the financial security to follow my dream and become part of the greatest profession in the world. Met my wife on holiday in Africa. (She is white English, and was on holiday too.) She is 10,000x smarter than I (insanely so it seems- often doing things that I can only dream of and begin to theorise) and to this day I have no idea just how fucking lucky I was to score that chick!!! And as a tag team, we've held the belts for the last 6 years! Fuck John Cena!!!
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Odd. I actually had a really long response to you but it appears to have been eaten by AICN! Um, anyway - short answer: yes. I wish Eccleston stayed longer.
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June 10, 2011, 2:20 p.m. CST
the_mad_groper - vanilla vodka?? What have I been missing???
by sam jacksons wig
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June 10, 2011, 2:22 p.m. CST
doctortom - love the GOON! Where is the fucking movie already????
by sam jacksons wig
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We know you first started as the Shatner Turbo 2000, but moved on up to being Sam Jackson's wig.
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June 10, 2011, 2:23 p.m. CST
One more series with Eccleston would have been interesting ...
by GINGE_MUPPET
But like the SAS he flew in did his job and got the hell out ...
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Figuratively of couse!!! Now, list me the top 5 audio adventures I need to purchase this very second to ensconce me in McCoys world. I am now a determined fellow to find out all about the wolves of Fenric and what part Ace has to play. I trust you implicitly.
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Fuck you, Red Skull!!!
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June 10, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST
Hell with the movie, let's have a Goon series on AMC or Starz
by DoctorTom
though I suspect we'd get an animated version on Adult Swim first. Of course, if it ended up there, they could adapt the Goon/Metalocalypse crossover comic that came out. <br> <br> Still, I'd like to see Ben Templesmith (who has done some fine Doctor Who artwork, to at least keep it marginally tied in with the thread) get together with Eric Powell and do a crossover between The Goon and Wormwood, Gentleman Corpse. <br> <br> I'd also like to see Templesmith do an 11th Doctor/Wormwood crossover - it would be hilarious.
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adventures. But they started coming out too fast and furious for me to keep up. I would also be interested in getting recommendations from people.
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June 10, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST
sjw - I can think of 2 7th Doctor stories off the top of my head
by DoctorTom
Colditz, and The Shadow of the Scourge. The latter is written by Paul Cornell, and has the 7th Doctor, Ace and Bernice Summerfield. It could easily have been one of Virgin's New Adventures. <br> <br> A third 7th Doctor adventure to try would be the Reaping. It's with the 7th Doctor and Ace, and has Big Finish introducing a new companion they made up. <br> <br> The Fires of Vulcan is actually a 7th doctor story with Mel that works. <br> <br> If you want a fifth one, Master would be a good audio to try.
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Well, you need at least 7 audios, because two of them connect with the 6th Doctor.. but here goes... 6th Doctor ones: Project Twilight Project Lazarus (which isn't as good as Twilight, but it is a good continuation) Then for 7th Doctor -- the Hex stories really have it well.... with the following being the ones which work best (imo-- though skipping many good ones to be sure): The Harvest The Magic Mousetrap Enemy of the Daleks [The Angel of Scutari - can be missed though hence the bracket] Project Destiny Death in the Family -- There are many other good 7th Doctor audios, but I think these are the best, esp to connect with Ace. I did like Crime of the Century (Lost Adventure). honorable mention for7th Doctor: The Fearmonger (Ace) The Shadow of the Scourge (Ace/Bernice, by Paul Cornell) Dust Breeding (Ace) Colditz (Ace, also David Tennant is in it) Bang-Bang a Boom (Comic story with Mel, but not everyone likes it; parody of Star Trek/B5 etc).
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Created one great foe which I would love to see on screen -- Nimrod. He really needs to be brought on screen.
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I've been getting them, but I think I'm a couple of years behind on a lot of them. There's been a smattering of newer ones I've done, especially with The Companion Chronicles. Ringpullworld (Turlough) was fun, and I liked the one they somewhat recently did with Katy Manning where she gets to voice both Jo Grant and Iris Wildthyme in the audio. I'm only 2 behind on Bernice Summerfield, though. I've always enjoyed that series, especially Jaq Raynor's brilliant spoofing of The Chase using Bernice instead of the Doctor, and the Grel instead of the Daleks "Bad fact! Bad fact!" (this was the Grel Escape). <br> <br> Oh, and the Daleks have actually appeared in a Benny audio, written by Paul Cornell
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The Reaping was 6th Doctor and Peri...
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But just like Merrick, I gave up on the show shortly after Baker's introduction. His portrayal just pissed me off to the point that I didn't watch again until the 2005 revival.
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the Wormery, by Stephen Cole and Paul Magrs. It features the 6th Doctor and also has Iris Wildthyme in it (voiced by Katy Manning).
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thanks for correcting me
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I just read the Wiki on him.
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June 10, 2011, 2:51 p.m. CST
I will say this about the audios.. anyone who hated Colin Baker
by V'Shael
needs to check them out. Oh, what a Doctor we could have had on screen... The BBC really screwed us all there. I'm not the sort to go to conventions and that, but I wish I could meet Colin Baker and tell him exactly how much I loved and still love his work.
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Not bad for a TB connected to a show without any episodes this week.
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Yes, Nimrod is real cool. He deserves an on-screen story. And the audios also have the Doctor encounter him in timey-wimey order!
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I think I'm going to try checking those out. Thanks for bringing 'em to my attention, buddy.
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And some of you know I'm really really hard to please. :)
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June 10, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST
doctortom -- it's cool, The Gathering/The Reaping/The Harvest is its own "trilogy"
by HornOrSilk
And easy to confuse which goes with which...
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Seasons of Fear with Paul McGann, featuring the return of a race you never thought would come back yet still love them showing up in the audio. <br> <br> The One Doctor (6th Doctor and Mel) - at the unfashionable end of time, run into a pair claiming to be the Doctor and his companion. When The Next Doctor was announced, I thought they might be taking parts from this story. The audio is better than the TV special. <br> <br> The Holy Terror - 6th Doctor and Frobisher, the shape shifting Penguin from Doctor Who Magazine, written by Robert Shearman. <br> <br> Omega (might be an appropriate one to listen to, if you want to buy into some of the rumor/speculation) - a 5th Doctor story without a companion.
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Seasons of Fear, imo, is what the TVM should have been like; all timey-wimey and all. It's great. The One Doctor is good fun. The Holy Terror is a masterpiece. Omega is good, but I still think Davros is the best of that "trilogy."
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The problem was that I had checked the name on wiki to make sure I got it right - then went and posted in the wrong thread at first (one of the other who threads I had open - too many Who threads, so I'm going to focus on this one now), then STILL got it wrong! <br> <br> So many dead brain cells, so little time.
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June 10, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST
@DoctorTom - Is "The One Doctor" based on the New Adventure?
by V'Shael
The one where the Land of Fiction is involved?
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June 10, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST
v'shael -- oh yes, his audios show how good he would have been
by HornOrSilk
I always saw _him_ as good, and I understood and appreciated his version of the Doctor. The problem was all out of his hands. But he got to show everyone with the audios; and his love for the show is easily seen through what he does for BF.
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What I wanna know is: Are there any multi Doctor audio adventures? Which are the best McGann Audios?
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http://bftrailers.gmaskew.com/trailers/doctorwho/27-theonedoctor1.mp3 is the trailer to it.
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Project Twilight is my favorite of the three, I admit. But the character is done so well, I like the whole trilogy.
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It's somewhat recent. It's called "An Earthly Child". I loved it.
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June 10, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST
horn, I think I tend to lean toward "Master" just a wee bit more if I had to choose one of those,
by DoctorTom
but all 3 are good. <br> <br> Technically, though, it wasn't a "trilogy", it was a "tetralogy" as they lumped Zagreus in with it under their "monster" umbrella. <br> <br> Oh, and one more recommendation for people who want to see just how good Paul McGann could be - Neverland by Alan Barnes, with Lalla Ward also appearing (and, since wiki spoils it - Rassilon's also in the audio, voiced by Don Warrington. Rassilon's in other audios, but it's best to get him in the early appearance first such as here before going to the Divergent Universe stuff and listening to The Next Life.
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It's at least as "good" as the Five Doctors.
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June 10, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST
v'shael - no, it's not based on a New Adventure, but I think I know which one you're thinking of
by DoctorTom
Was Head Games the one you were thinking of? That was a fun one with Mel coming back and seeing all the thugs and reprobates that the Doctor was hanging around with after she left.
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I remember Colin Baker saying it to Peri in the TARDIS as well, but it figures that the best line in a Who episode would be written by Robert Holmes, even if it was almost a decade earlier. And I don't mind getting schooled in Who by a guy whose name is Meglos, so it's totally cool.
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June 10, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST
Guys, I'm onto it. Thanks a million. Doc 7 didn't do much for me...
by sam jacksons wig
...but I hope to remedy that now with the suggestions I have received. Once again, Who-Universe, I am in awe of you.
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really shouldn't be listened to until after listening to Neverland. <br> <br> There's been a couple that have had 2 Doctors in the same story, but in at least one story I can think of one of the Doctor's appearances is a surprise at the end (I don't want to name which one). <br> <br> Also, for people interested, the Kingmaker is a 5th Doctor story, but there's a brief bit where we get to hear Jon Culshaw do his 4th Doctor impression (this was before Tom Baker said he'd do audios for BF)
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...it's a dark and sad place! Gotta be honest, I haven't watched Time and the Rani since I was a kid (I think I was 12 or something) and my god I thought it was crap! It's interesting to see bits of it again now, but it's still crap. That final Colin Baker season and this first McCoy one are the absolute nadir of the show. And then Remembrance of the Daleks happened. I remember watching that at 13 with a friend from school one lunchtime (god bless VHS recorders!) and thinking 'where the hell did this come from?' Anyway, glad to see you're enjoying the old episodes. My advice (for what it's worth) get hold of Spearhead from Space, Carnival of Monsters, The Green Death, The Invasion, The War Games, The Time Warrior, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, The Seeds of Doom, The Ark in Space, The Brain of Morbius, Pyramids of Mars, The Robots of Death and Caves of Androzani. Some of the best pulp ever.
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A great little adventure, I thought.
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June 10, 2011, 3:24 p.m. CST
Sorry guys, but the comedy special for St ormond St Hospital looms......
by sam jacksons wig
...and as health in general especially that of kids is dear to my heart i shall bid you ll adieu for a couple of hours.
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I thought that post was a little short CBTML! For a second I thought I was losing it! SJW - The joys of Vanilla vodka cant be missed!! Mixed just right with some coke and nirvana isn't far behind! From the sounds of the posts here.. Ive got a lot of catching up to do on Audio adventures! And can I say for the record... THANK GOD it's summer! ~last day of school here and I'm a teacher!~ And a really big thank you to Merrick... I think this is gonna be really great!
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June 10, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST
v'shael -- that is the start of another 8th Doctor "series"
by HornOrSilk
And the end of it really would lead well to the Time War.
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Did you see the news about Paul McGanns new "costume" change? And it's for the audio adventures. It looks like Doctor 9, frankly. All dark, and suitable for war.
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June 10, 2011, 3:31 p.m. CST
bout any oI agree, v'shael - Lyons other 7th Doctor book Conundrum was also fun
by DoctorTom
Ah, if they'd only do that Alternate timeline arc starting with Blood Heat (they could skip Dimension Riders, though), The Left Handed Hummingbird, Conundrum and No Future. <br> <br> I'd really like to see No Future done. Back before new Who, it was really funny seeing Benny congratulating a Vardan in being the only race to have been defeated by the intellect of the Sontaran army (which, after Invasion of the Daleks and The Two Doctors, did suffer a bit). Fortunately they have been rehabilitated. I always liked the Sontarans - as someone who started with Tom Baker, they were my first recurring monster in the series.
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June 10, 2011, 3:33 p.m. CST
er, eliminate the "bout any o" - I have no idea where that came from
by DoctorTom
stupid lack of edit function
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Kate Orman again. She's up there with Paul Cornell, IMO. I'd like to see her write an episode for Doctor 11, actually.
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June 10, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST
Actually, v'shael, I think you're right about the 8th Doctor
by DoctorTom
I do remember reading in BF's promotional magazine that they put out that Gary Russell waited until he was done with his script editing duties on the TV series before doing the new series of Gallifrey, and he's wanting to have the Gallifrey series leading up into the Time War. It wouldn't surprise me if he's trying to get the 8th Doctor stories to head that way also. <br> <br> It reminds me (SPOILERS FOR THE AUDIO - you have been warned!) of Terror Firma, where they mutated Davros into becoming the Emperor Dalek so that BF could say that the Emperor in The Parting of the Ways and Davros are the same character. Whoops, guess BF will have to de-Emperor-ify him since Davros came back in season 4.
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Was one of the GREAT missed opportunities of Pre-21st century Doctor Who. A malevolent, brilliant female Time Lord who was a former acquaintance - possibly gf - of the doctor could have been so much more interesting than she was. The hysterics were definitely too much. I actually would love to see them try to reboot The Rani, this time as the darkly brilliant sadistic soft-spoken Dominatrix she could totally be. Someone who could manipulate the beasts of the universe to do her bidding. Someone with a barely chained sexuality who can make any man think hard about his current relationship. Someone who could kill without blinking, and finally someone NOT given to hysterics. I think I turned myself on a little... oy...
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You are so right - it was and is-- and this is why it is the kind of show that, once people "get it" they really do what you are doing -- start absorbing it all. Its longevity should never have been, and yet, the simple and yet unique idea of regeneration made sure it can last... and last.. and last...
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BF said they didn't know anything about it... when it was done...
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Hooray for us! Congratulations all around, and it's time to see how quickly we can get to 1000 posts!
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Now that's a miracle. Time and the Rani?! Who would have thought!
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Did anyone else besides me discover Doctor Who (pre-revival) just by chance and not get the premise for the first couple of episodes? I was flipping cable channels in the 80s here in Canada and stopped on YTV and there was Tom Baker and I kind of recognized him but wasn't sure from where. For two episodes I watched it going "okay this is kind of cool but why the hell do they keep showing this blue phone booth". Then in episode three someone finally walked out of the TARDIS and I had my "Ah-ha!" moment. And then I said what everyone else says, "Cool! It's bigger on the inside!"
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June 10, 2011, 3:43 p.m. CST
mukhtabi - "I actually would love to see them try to reboot The Rani, this time as the darkly brilliant sadistic soft-spoken Dominatrix she could totally be. "
by DoctorTom
Are you sure they they haven't? *cough River Song cough*. <br> <br> Well, she's not the Rani, but how do you know she's not meeting all the other qualifications you listed? ;)
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I haven't seen enough leather yet, but you do raise a HIGHLY compelling point there!
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My entrance into Doctor Who was a bit of a mix. I flipped through scenes late on Saturday night a few times. I thought "what the ?!?!? that's supposed to be entertainment" and just moved on (one was a scene from Revenge of the Cybermen). Then, a few months later, the station started showing Doctor Who on Sunday nights -- around 8 pm, I think. Full stories. This was in the early 80s, on a station which would later be FOX (but before there was a FOX). The first one we watched as a family was "Creature From the Pit." It wasn't a good example of Who, but, my father was doing a kind of MST3K commentary throughout -- making it funny and enjoyable. I started watching it on Sundays, and after a few weeks, started video taping it, when they reshowed early Tom Baker stories. By then I figured out the series had good stories as well as camp. Then they showed Logopolis and I was like "What was that?" I was young and didn't know about regeneration. I found the books a few months after that, and found out about regeneration. Then the PBS station started showing the 5th Doctor, and I was hooked...
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Really, coming first is nothing to brag about. Shave your fellow talkbacker and leave her happy I say. Anyhoo, couple 'O links for ya'all. Thanky me lateroo if you likey: The stupid faces of Doc Who: http://stupidfacesofdoctorwho.tumblr.com/ for they be many and............. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt3qZYUPi2Y Japanese Anime Pertwee Who !!!!! Off for a double G&T, smoke and a BJ Byeeeee my little James Tadpoles.
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The BBC never really repeated Doctor Who episodes. And my earliest memory (I had no idea what it was, but it was vivid) was seeing the green maggots from the Green Death. I later found out that while I couldn't have remembered the original broadcast, I could have seen and remembered the repeat they made at Christmas that year. But I would have been very very young indeed. I don't remember consciously what my first Doctor Who episode was. I remember several things from when they were first broadcast, like K9, and the Invasion of Time where they went deep into the TARDIS. But at that stage, I already knew who The Doctor was, and what his police box was all about. In fact, I don't think I remember ever "discovering" that the TARDIS was bigger on the inside. I think I learned that along with basic speech or something. It's that engrained into me. I know one of my brothers first memories of Who is The Power of Kroll. And he's a bit younger than me. But he also remembers the Invasion of Time, and he wasn't quite 4 when that aired for the first time. I think Doctor Who, with it's theme music and monsters could really work its way into a childs mind, in much the same way that Star Wars did for American kids, some of whom saw it first when they were 3 years old. Like this little girl : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mK7dzyUkM
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June 10, 2011, 4:24 p.m. CST
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, little Johnny was being gored by a wild bull...
by DoctorTom
getting back to Time and the Rani, I did like the bits of the 7th Doctor's character that were starting to show up, but you can see he's still settling in to what he wants to do. That's the problem with only 4 stories in a season; Castrovalva was filmed 4th for that season, after he had settled in to the character. Unfortunately that same time period for McCoy put it into his second season. <br> <br> One other good point about this story is that it's the last story by Pip and Jane "Catharsis of Spurious Morality" Baker for the series. I did enjoy the first Rani story, but Terror of the Vervoids was completely meh and I did not like the last episode of The Ultimate Foe (Alright everybody, it's okay to laugh at the menace of.....(cue dramatic music) The Megabyte Modem!). This story was a holdover from JNT before Andrew Cartmel really got involved with the series. (And, if they had produced Paradise Towers the way Cartmel wanted to, it might have been a whole lot better.) So, saying goodbye to Pip and Jane counts as a good thing for this story.
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Cheers chaps! I'll check some out.
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That's an easy one for me to name, since I'm in America. My earliest memory is when PBS picked up Doctor Who. They were showing the Tom Baker episodes one episode a day, and repeating an entire story on the weekend. I didn't know about the show on the first two days they were showing it (1978 if I recall, the summer between high school and college). I was curious about this new show, and watched Episode 3 of Robot. With the Howard Da Silva narrations at the beginning and the end of the episodes for recaps and promo for the next episode. (As an aside, I wish that the DVDs had been put out with the Howard da Silva narration as an audio option for the episodes, not just as an extra watched separately.) <br> <br> And, what did I first see? This bohemian character being menaced by a Robot out to kill him. He tried one thing after another, and they weren't working, but he kept using his wits and trying other things until he found something that worked. Except that we saw that the Robot wasn't your typical stupid robot, and tricked the Doctor, so both sides in the conflict were relying on their intelligence. I was hooked instantly. <br> We also have a fantastic design for the Robot, one of the best there has ever been in the history of SF. Later in the story we get the Doctor riding in Bessie (I didn't know about any significance to Bessie at the time) making his comments about "That sounds like unsinkable." "What's wrong with unsinkable, Doctor?" "Ask the Titanic", then he ducks down with "glub glub glub" sounds. How could I possibly resist watching a character like that. <br> <br> Then, they showed The Ark in Space next, and it just reinforced how special the series was.
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For a lot of people, the Doctor they saw when they first started watching the show ends up being their favorite, even if they like a lot of the other ones. I'm working on a theory. It's similar to imprinting baby ducks.
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It was the 4th story filmed for Davison's first season (you can tell by the length of his hair in the different stories that season when they were filmed). Sorry I didn't make it clear - the problem with trying to type faster than I can think. ;)
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I was lucky enough to watch DR WHO in the late 80s-early 90s when it would be on the two PBS channels we got in the "movie length" format, as well as on YTV (Canadian channel that was just starting out) in the half-hour format. I hadn't even seen Tom Baker's last season when I started catching Sylvester McCoy episodes on YTV, so it was quite a shock to see the contrast in production values from Tom Baker's worst season (HORNS OF NIMON, take a bow) to the look of TATR, or THE CURSE OF FENRIC. I loved seeing the improved effects, aliens that didn't look (as much) like Halloween costumes (the Tetrap eyes actually move!), the funky new incidental music and opening sequence, etc. I still am more well-disposed to this episode than most people (despite the giant brain, and technobabble, etc). It has been a bit weird catching up with some of these episodes years later though - some of them look like they were shot with a camcorder (BATTLEFIELD - never one of my favorites despite the kick-ass Destroyer and the return of the Brigadier - looks particularly lame. Plus it really pissed me off that the Doctor says Morgaine is using sorcery/magic, especially since the show had always gone out of its way to show there is no such thing) Other episodes have more going for them than I noticed at the time. I HATED "Delta and the Bannermen" when it first aired, and while it is still not something I would want to revisit, it does have some nice bits, such as the Doctor awkwardly dancing with a woman who has been ignored by the boy she likes. For me, McCoy's worst would be DELTA AND THE BANNERMEN or SILVER NEMESIS (lets do REMEMBRANCE OF THE DALEKS, but with Cybermen! And the stupidest Nazis you'll ever see. And a bunch of street thugs thinking everyone's a social worker). I liked Colin Baker as the Doctor, but he got A LOT of crap stories. He was lucky he didn't get too much time with Mel though - one of the worst companions the show ever had (and arguably the most shrill screamer the show ever had). BTW, nice to see I'm not the only one who learned the word "Luddite" from MARK OF THE RANI. Classic WHO was always great for a kid to learn new words, like "megalomaniac". The only one I've learned from the new series is "petrichor".
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June 10, 2011, 4:43 p.m. CST
That Picture of Steven Moffat, is actually pretty inspirational.
by notspock2
nice find whoever found it.
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June 10, 2011, 4:43 p.m. CST
It's a fair observation, trosz, but it might depend on which Doctor it was
by DoctorTom
Anyone like me who started with Tom Baker will have imprinted on him (at least anyone who started watching before Baker's last season). A lot of people imprinted on Pertwee when he was their first Doctor, and I know a lot of the fan turned pro types have listed Davison as "their" doctor (and I think their ages would match up with this to some extent). I'd be curious to see how well that holds up for people who started watching during Colin Baker or (to a lesser extent) Sylvester McCoy. Also, it seems like people whose first Doctor Who viewing was with Eccleston ended up migrating to David Tennant as their favorite. It would be a good study for someone; I'm sure it could be milked for a paper for college for someone.
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June 10, 2011, 4:47 p.m. CST
nterestingly, the theme pointedly incorporates the heroic, soaring, and under-appreciated "middle eight" stanzas.
by Symposium
That's the best part of the theme in my opinion. Gives it a little bit more substance and helps take it away from the jingle end of the musical spectrum.
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I always liked that part and thought it was cool that they had incorporated it into the opening theme for Dr 7.
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I will put a slight kink in your theory, the first Doctor Who I ever watched fully was Voyage of the Damned, however, DT is about 4th on my list of favorites. Number 1 is Matt Smith, with Tom Baker and Jon Pertwee just about tied for second/third, Truth be told though, I like them all, since each was unique!
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June 10, 2011, 4:54 p.m. CST
Thanks for sharing that, i am not a number.... (comment about old series effects)
by DoctorTom
(though I have to keep fighting the urge to just call you "free man" for short ;). <br> <br> You commented on the production values of the last Tom Baker season vs. the Sylvester McCoy stories. I'll agree on some of the values, but if you look back you'll see some fantastic design work in the first season of Tom Baker. Yes, there were some things that ended up shoddy, but the same story that gave us the Loch Ness Monster Puppet also gave us the brilliant design of the Zygons. The same story that gave us the Action Man tank in action gave us the design of the Robot, which I would actually put up against any of the designs we have today. Despite the rigid heads of the Vogons, we had a nifty special effect for the people getting infected in Revenge of the Cybermen. And, for that matter, for someone who hadn't seen Doctor Who before, that story featured these cyborg robot things with a really cool design - we didn't know that these cybermen were rubbish compared to how they had been back in the days of Patrick Troughton. And, for every less-than-stellar moment like the Giant Clam of Doom in Genesis of the Daleks, we had the design of Davros. We also had a wonderfully moody piece at the beginning with the Doctor meeting the other Time Lord, then finding out he's on a battlefield on another planet. <br> <br> Things continued like this through the seasons. Robot Voc, meet the Giant Rat in the sewer system. Movellan design sense, meet the design sense in Nightmare of Eden (which was actually a good story that just suffered in some of the production values).
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I liked it when it was something special, when it would just sneak in during the end credits of some of the Tom Baker 6 parters, when you didn't get it all the time. It was like a nice little bonus at the end of the episode. Not unlike getting surprised by a guest appearance of John Cleese.
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June 10, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST
We need to get a move on, Docbackers - Sarah Palin's wanting to make a move on us!
by DoctorTom
That straight line should be good for a few more posts! ;)
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Palin is too busy building a bridge to nowhere that Paul Revere can rida across to warn the British that the Americans are coming...:P
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I now have a newfound respect for you Sam Jackson's wig.
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I didn't know those were the rubbish Cybermen either, but I knew I loved them as villains (still my favorite of the regularly occurring aliens, though I was annoyed that the current series sorta borrowed the origin of the new Cybermen from GENESIS OF THE DALEKS - brilliant man in wheelchair creates unstoppable monster as his legacy, only to be done in by them after setting them up to destroy his own people). I agree about the effects, the older ones ones could surprise you at times with what they achieved on such a low budget - such as the Zygons, as you mentioned. Fantastic design, too bad we haven't seen them back since. And they showed more imagination than a lot of the aliens they were coming up with for TNG. I was seeing McCoy's first and 3rd seasons around the same time I saw Tom Baker's penultimate season. Season 17, I would contend was for the most part, lower in production value than episodes from Tom Baker's earlier years (comparing the Nimon or the monster in CREATURE FROM THE PIT to the aforementioned Zygons, or Davros). I hadn't seen Baker's somber final season when they updated the look and sound of the show, so it was quite a study in contrast - hard to believe it was the same show. PS: I thought I was the only person who thought NIGHTMARE OF EDEN had pretty good story. PS#2: I will accept "free man" as a suitable shorthand for my username. :)
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As Sarah Palin has playing in Doctor Who. But, I'm not sure which would be worse for the world.
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But I've moved beyond having a "favorite." They are all great. I used to have Sly as my favorite in the late 80s -- and one can see I judged Doctors through the idea of the Doctor they portrayed vs what we got on screen. I loved the idea of the dark Doctor for McCoy, and Curse of Fenric for years was my favorite Doctor Who story. It's still one of my favorites, but, Power of the Daleks rules all others and has for years now.
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June 10, 2011, 5:22 p.m. CST
As for effects -- the B/W ones actually often work well for their time
by HornOrSilk
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Many people I know and talk to like Nightmare of Eden. I like it better than, say, Carnival of Monsters.
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Kate's attempt to do something with the script she was given.
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and as a kid, not particularly liking the dark angry way he had attacked Peri and that sort of thing, it was the Attack of the Cybermen story that was my "A-ha" moment, where I recognised him as The Doctor. The same chap I'd been watching all my life. It was when Lytton (the supposed bad guy for most of the episode) was being cyber-converted, and he tells the Doctor (who's trying to save him) that the process can't be reversed. He snaps at him saying "I'm the Doctor! I'll tell you if its irreversible or not! Now just hang on!" His grief when Lytton dies, and Peri tells him that he never gave Lytton a chance, really seems to hit him hard.
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The type 40 TARDIS that the Doctor stole was scheduled to be taken off line it was a old model and his TARDIS refused to change it shape as it traveled. It was fixed during 1 of Colin Baker's episodes but changed back by the end of episode.
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I agree with you on that. Colin's Doctor was written horribly at times, but, AOTC was one of his best episodes. It really showcased what Colin was capable of. I only wish he had been written like that for more of his run.
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June 10, 2011, 5:36 p.m. CST
For those who lost it in all this thread-- the BETTER 6th to 7th Regeneration
by HornOrSilk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFahehmZFVs Really funny. Colin rightfully didn't want to have a contract with the BBC knowing it would prevent him from working and he would only be paid for one story. It was an insult to him and he was right to say no. But it's good to know he and McCoy do get along well.
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While Sylvester McCoy himself was fine in the role...just about everything else was abysmal. The stories were childish...even the allegedly dark ones (though admittedly BBC meddling caused a lot of this). It looked cheaper and shoddier than ever. Just awful all around. every story was an endurance test. It's cancellation was an act of kindness really.
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but I've actually got the same edition of Doctor Who The Daleks that Steven Moffat has in that photo...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfcSAMkQknM
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at http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jpk7c94M1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832652&Signature=GQ1wA0Wcx1rW5gHnKicm%2BQ7FVpI%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jowe9hdV1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832766&Signature=E4Q9w8sT9fj7WcE%2B3%2BimcVd2ubc%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jp8m7J541qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832801&Signature=0TPstjIEnnJFz1iGujFRW1yHS%2Fk%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jp0eFutq1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832834&Signature=HVJm3vJYKvi9UkK9iEqSXT80ZBA%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jp4dczuC1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832852&Signature=yNF0ijP77qbZbsSrS%2BcwcUrGPOI%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jp6hkC3U1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832875&Signature=m13YGudrLyOsJ75JcBCihOBxWmw%3D http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8jpehhY9u1qbddgyo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1307832904&Signature=PgPa9OOB0i3oqzigRGuVLzgGtNY%3D There you go, don't say I never do naffink for ya ;-)
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June 10, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST
And just think... this is what McCoy was doing before Doctor Who
by HornOrSilk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6NEldyPeXs
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I'm the Doctor. There is no other.
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June 10, 2011, 6:04 p.m. CST
i am not a number, we all know the TRUE Origin of the Cybermen
by DoctorTom
Adric's spaceship actually crashed into Mondas, dislodging it from orbit and causing Mondas to cool, forcing the people to convert themselves with cyberparts to withstand the low temperatures. <br> <br> And, in the process, coming close enough to Earth to scare the hell out of the Silurians and get them all to hide underground. ;)
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June 10, 2011, 6:05 p.m. CST
v'shael oh yes, it is why I had to make sure people knew of it
by HornOrSilk
In case my first message with it got lost in all the comments.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN_thxvdDyk
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I first saw that at a Doctor Who convention in Wisconsin. The audience got to vote on whether to see that or to see Mark of the Rani, and we chose Attack of the Cybermen. They were doing the autograph lines at the same time they were showing the story, and my section had to go out and get their autographs while the second half was playing. It was probably a mercy that it worked that way and it makes me fonder of Attack than I probably should be. Wonderful first half, let down by the second half.
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I wish it had made it onto the DVD as part of the story.
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Bad news, the typing skills are degrading rapidly. <br> <br> Good news, it means I have an extra post to correct the title of my previous one.
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someone seems to have stolen the " at the begging and ending of THAT subject line.
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Time to dig out the DVD again. <br> Is that one of the one that's going to come out again in a Revisitations box set?
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June 10, 2011, 6:19 p.m. CST
It's on the DVD. I don't think the back of the US edition mentions it
by HornOrSilk
But it is on the DVD.
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...to the question that was asked near the top of the thread, but (if I remember correctly) the Seventh Doctor killing the Sixth was first brought up in Paul Cornell's "Love and War", though it was used in other novels ("Head Games"). If anyone is interested, a great overview to the books and audios (as well as being fun no-pressure reads) are Lars Pearson's "I, Who' series of guides. Also, if you get the chance, read Mr. Cornell's "Timewyrm: Revelation". It was an early Virgin Adventure, and while many of the ideas it puts forth seem obvious now, it really changed the way some of us viewed both the character of the Seventh Doctor and the Doctors in general.
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Time Lord, Dream Lord, Word Lord, Ogron Lord (from one of the novels)....we seem to be getting a lot of "Lords" lately. I'm surprised we haven't had "Space Lord" "Life Lord" and the ever popular "Dark Lord" used lately. And to see the Time Lords replaced by....Timey-Wimey Lords. (Maybe that's the ultimate fate of the baby - and I think I'd rather be called a TimeHeadBaby than a Timey-Wimey Lord.)
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June 10, 2011, 6:54 p.m. CST
It's time for the War Lord to return -- and nobody can beat him!
by HornOrSilk
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June 10, 2011, 6:55 p.m. CST
dogrobber, I'm not sure you're right, but I think you're close
by DoctorTom
I don't think it was in Love and War, but I think you're right about it being in a Paul Cornell novel. Wasn't it in Timewyrm: Revelation?
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June 10, 2011, 6:57 p.m. CST
And, with time being rewritten, Captain Jack will no longer be the Face of Boe - he becomes the Mack Daddy Lord.
by DoctorTom
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Moffat also likes making references to the Hartnell and Troughton eras, so it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Of course, if he came back he'd have to be leading Romans (and maybe Sontarans).
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... when Virgin was publishing them and had a hard time really getting into some of the things they were doing (granted some of the books were downright terrible to begin with, I recall hating THE PIT and Ben Aaronovich's TRANSIT). BTW, spoilers ahead for those a couple decades behind on their reading. However, they also had some fantastic books like the HUMAN NATURE which was the basis of the DR #10 story with him becoming human (does this mean that the books are no longer canon? Or is the Doctor caught in a weird time loop in which he sometimes has the same adventures, but with small changes? :) ), the introduction of the Chelonians by Gareth Roberts (they got a shout out in THE PANDORICA OPENS, I think), FIRST FRONTIER (the return of an old enemy and the introduction of the Tzun, which I thought were pretty cool), and one of my favorites, CONUNDRUM. I wish they'd adapt that story for the new series - lots of fun with the Land of Fiction and connecting it to the God of Ragnarok! I thought the return of the Master in new WHO had a couple similarities to FIRST FRONTIER (gets his regenerative abilities back, only to get shot immediately afterwards and regenerating).
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I think up to Final Frontier. I know I eventually stopped.. but I still have the first signed by Peel.
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Living in Canada didn't afford me much opportunity to get signed copies. :) I abandonned the books myself when the BBC took back the rights from Virgin. Coincided with me starting university as well. From what I've read, there were still some pretty good ones published under the Beeb's control.
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Four conventions-- the two WhoosierCons and two in Chicago for Visions (including the 1993 anniversary convention). After 1993, I just felt no convention could compete and so stopped going. John Peel was a nice guy, and I got my Dalek Masterplan volumes also signed by him.
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who first started watching with New Who...are the audio plays canon? I am thinking the novels wouldn't be, since a few of them have been directly contradicted on the show. But if I were to start listening to some of the audio plays, do they count, basically?
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I will be dressing up as the 11th Doctor for the last day of Wizard World's Philadelphia Comic Con next Sunday, the 19th. My costume is not the best, but I do have a bowtie and a fez, as well as homemade psychic paper, and of course my sonic screwdriver lol. This will be my third time in this costume. The first time I wore it, a guy asked me , after I had already changed out of it and put it away, and I kid you not..." Your costume...Who were you?" LOL LOL Of course, I am rather alot larger in the middle then Matt Smith, and my chin a bit smaller, but his costume was the easiest to throw together in just 2 weeks of prep time.
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No. But they're worth a listen anyways :)
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Unfortunately he was saddled with some of the worst writing in the series history. Such a damn shame that just as they were getting it right again (Curse of Fenric, Ghostlight etc. the plug got pulled.
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IT had to be close to 1982...maybe 1983. I was up late ( around 10PM), and one of the two PBS channels had Doctor Who on. I caught about the last 15 minutes of the Armageddon Factor. The show was different. I was curious as to what it was all about. Sadly, I was in the 6th grade, and I'd only get to catch pieces of the storylines (remember, a story was usually split into 4 episodes, each a half hour). What was cool was that Tom Baker was getting close to the end of his run for Who, and within a month or so, we went into Davidson. Davidson more or less became my Doctor. I was intrigued with how they would totally change the game up on the show with regeneration. I honestly thought it was a brilliant way to really change the show, and give it new life, but keep it almost the same as well. What was cool was that our PBS channel (Urbana, IL), would cycle through all the episodes, then re broadcast the bakers, into the Davidsons. Heck, I watch the bakers run probably 3 times, the Davidison twice, then moved out to Wyoming. What was cool was that the PBS channels put Who on in the afternoon, and even better, I hadn't gotten to see Pertwees run. I got to see several episodes of John Pertwees run, and instead of having to watch the entire run of Baker, they jumped to the final Davidson Episodes. I got to see his regeneration into Colin Baker, but that was about the time I had gotten into High School. I would catch the Colin Baker episodes here and there, and I gotta tell ya, I HATED him. His portrayal of the good Doctor made him into a complete doucher! Worse, who in the BLUE hell picked out his new costume? HORRIBLE! Probably my favorite Baker episode was when he met up with Patrick Troughtons Doctor, and his sidekick, Jamie. Now there was an AWESOME Doctor. I still think Troughtons Doctor is easily one of the best. It was great to get a chance to see what this Doctor was about, and heck, the fist part of "The Two Doctors" was that it mostly dealt with Doc #2 and Jamie! Moving forward, Sylvester McCoy is probably the LEAST of the Doctors I have seen, and honestly, the episodes I have read about just don't do it for me. Its not that he didn't play the Doctor in a good way, its just that the stories really sucked for me! Its probably good that Who came to an end with McCoy, nothing against him,my beef was with the people making the show at this point...they were making it into something it wasn't. Moving forward, every so often, I'd hear rumblings about Doctor Who becoming a movie, or maybe a new TV series. When Fox broadcast the back door pilot for Doctor Who with Paul McGann, I was excited. The TV movie wasn't bad, either. I dug how they went with a Victorian looking Tardis, giving the Tardis a lot of room as well. I had hoped McGanns Doctor would have been given a chance on Fox, but Sadly, Wally Cleaver couldn't pull it off, and it was the last of the good Doctor for a long time. Then I found out the BBC wanted Who back ASAP! Finally, someone got it over there! I remember waiting for the episodes to drop over here in the US, as well as reading reviews on AICN...and I even remember someone (Harry?) not being to kind with their first review of Chris Eccleston. Honestly, the return episode of the Doctor wasn't the best, but wasn't as bad as the AICN review of the "Plastic" mannequins...and the show got better each week, to boot. I think RTD and Moffit have done a great job. Sure, not every story is better than the last BUT heck, compared to some of the old school episodes (Watch some McCoy episodes and you'll agree with me), the show has come a long way. As long as they keep giving us interesting stories, I'll keep watching.
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Really there has been no answer to it; however, some of them have been played by BBC on their radio, so, well.... I think the best answer is they are if you want them to be.. and I also think the assumption is, unless something on screen says otherwise, they are... many of the New Who gang were BF writers..
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I tend to think of all Tardis' fighting their cameleon curcuits, attempting to gravitate to some iconic form: the Doctor's police box, the Master's column, the Rani's pyramid. With the modern concept of perception filters, I tend to look back at the old series and imagine shape-changing as an old technology, replaced by simply making passers-by just not notice the odd box. What I remember most about Time and the Rani was that it marked a milestone in the move to bombastic themes and bright colours that tended to permiate the set design of the show during that era. Sylvester McCoy had a wonderful take on the character (although in this story he's still finding his footing), but I don't think the writing quite gave him enough to work with. Similarly, I liked Kate O'Mara's Thatcher-era portrayal of The Rani, but I would have prefered the character be written with a redeming trait or two rather than being pure evil. The idea of a Time Lord who looked down on lesser races as little more than lab rats rather than sentient creatures should have been far more interesting territory to explore than it came out.
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June 11, 2011, 6:16 a.m. CST
red43jes- great story! Enjoyed reading it very much mate!
by sam jacksons wig
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...or whomever else is reading this. What was your take on Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoys run? Am I off?
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June 11, 2011, 6:48 a.m. CST
Here's a little tidbit about Bonnie Langford (Mel)...........................
by axcel1
Recently, (I believe it was early last year.) she was in NYC, Broadway, doing a one-woman show, called, "An Evening With Bonnie Langford". I think she was singing and dancing, I don't remember too much about the newspaper ad. And, no, I didn't go see it.
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June 11, 2011, 7:11 a.m. CST
And, I'm surprised to see the love for "Attach Of The Cybermen"..............................................
by axcel1
One of the best (In my opinion, of course.) Who stories for two reasons. 1.) It had my favorite Who villain, the Cybermen, and, 2.) It had, not 1, not 2, but, 3 past Cybermen plot threads, from "The Tenth Plant" (It was 1986, the same year the Cybermen from Mondas were on Earth), "The Invasion" (They were using the same hidden base in the sewers.), and "Tomb Of The Cybermen" (They hijacked the TARDIS with the Doctor and Peri and landed on Telos.). Old-Who didn't revisit the past that much, so, I like that. And, like v'shael said in an earlier post, the ending was the best thing about it.
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Colin Bakers run and Sylvesters McCoys run certainly have their detractors. But in my opinion, much of the criticism has to do with the way the show was treated by the BBC. Take for example, Colins decision to make the Doctor darker at the start of his run. He expected his run to take many years. He loves the role. And he wanted an actual arc to the character. So the plan for him was to start off darker than normal, and "redeem" the Doctor over the many seasons he'd be playing the role. He even wanted the costume to be black, like the Masters. The wardrobe department felt differently, obviously, between smoking weed and taking LSD. With McCoy, there were plans to have Ace go from being troubled teen runaway with a mommy complex, to actually being a Time Lady at the Prydonian Academy. And for some more mystery to be added to the Doctors character, which some felt had become far less mysterious over the decades the show had been on the air. Again, we saw the start of this on the air. In Remembrance of the Daleks, the Doctor refers to creation of the Hand of Omega with "And didn't we have trouble with the prototype...". In another episode, Ace sees a 19th portrait of her older self. Things like that. While the New Adventures obviously gave writers a chance to do some rather fantastic things with Doctors 6 and 7 and their companions, it's really only in the Audio adventures that the actors are given a chance to shine in a way that they never were on the old BBC. You can find scenes on YouTube, where the garish multicoloured vomit coat worn by Doctor 6 is replaced by a Blue on blue outfit, and the difference is larger than you'd think. Check these out : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0F6wTk3TKk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJEw5xIDZZs
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June 11, 2011, 7:13 a.m. CST
Sorry, that should be, "Attack Of The Cybermen"................
by axcel1
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Missed a word in that post. And also missed pointing out that the black leather coat look which Colin Baker wanted, was used quite successfully by Doctor 9.
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June 11, 2011, 7:26 a.m. CST
red43jes, you are not "off", you have the right to your opinion......................
by axcel1
I liked Colin Baker's and Sylvester McCoy's take on the Doctor. Baker's Doctor acting like an pompous ass, at first, was funny, at least, i thought so, and, McCoy's Doctor acting like a clown in the first year, and, then, dark and mysterious in his second and third year was interesting. I know most of the stories were bad, but, I enjoyed the journey forward the stories took me.
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June 11, 2011, 7:27 a.m. CST
Remember a year ago? Searching for old docbacks to fill in the gaps?
by wtriker1701
Thanks again, Merrick. You've given us a weekly home! And The Doctor enters the Top 10 Talkbacks every time!!!! Mark Of The Rani was much worse then Time And The Rani. Those wooden, wooden actors. Especially the "fight scene" between O'Mara and Ainley over the Tardis controls... meh! Colin Baker got to shine in this one, because everyone else just lacked... everything...
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...if they had given Colin Baker his wish and he had been able to run with the idea of being darker, then redeeming himself. Its just that like I said, Baker and then McCoy just had lousy stories while on TV. HUGELY disappointing for someone who grew up with Tom Baker and Peter Davidson. And like I said, I dunno if you can directly blame John Nathan Turner, but man, theres hardly ANY Who I want to watch from the Colin Baker/Sylvester McCoy era (not that theres aren't moments, but my personal opinion, these guys just weren't allowed to shine while on TV!). That the coat of many colors, WHO thought that thing looked cool? Hands down, probably the WORST costume design I had ever seen in ANY show!
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Funny story about it.. When it was first shown here, it was on PBS and a big-time Doctor Who artist was in town, and it was pledge week. So he was talking about the show before the episode was being shown. And they asked him what his favorite Doctor Who episode was, and he of course said "this one." I knew he was just trying to get the public excited for it -- all during a pledge drive. But as a young kid, it worked -- it got me excited, and it had a positive reinforcement for it so I always liked it, even if I felt it didn't live up to its potential. Some real good ideas in it ruined, once again, by the BBC of the time not treating the show right (but also a script editor causing problems, imo).
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But as I keep saying, whomever was at the helm of Doctor Who, it seems they didn't have the shows best intents. I do lean towards liking Sylvester McCoys Doctor, but again, I just think he, along with Baker had horribly written stories. Because of this, its hard to enjoy their portrayals.
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June 11, 2011, 7:35 a.m. CST
@red43jes - Well, their best work is in the Audio adventures.
by V'Shael
And if you like well written hard SciFi Doctor Who, some of the New Adventure series were top class. Did you know even Russel T. Davies wrote for the New Adventure series?
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Well, let's start with Universal. Specifically with their three greatest cinematic icons: Dracula, Frankenstein and The Mummy. As a kid I was facinated with cinema, more importantly horror cinema. One of my earliest memories of celluloid was of Dwight Fry at the base of a set of wooden stairs, light shining onto his leering face as he laughed maniacally at what seemed directly at me. My Aunt who is only slightly older than I also shared a love of horror cinema, and together we began collecting Dracula trading cards, which showed all kinds of gruesome things including the count (then played by the great Christopher Lee) being dispatched in ever more inventive ways. In short, I adored being scared. In previous conversations with my parents, they have confirmed to me that they had been watching Dr Who before I was born, and continued to do so through my very early years, so he has always shared my life in one way or another, even though I was incapable of understanding. As years past and my love of cinema grew, so did my love of literature. Fantasy as a kid was hugely important to me; Dahl and Tolkien specifically (I still have the first copy of the Hobbit I was ever bought!) and then a book bought for me by some upstart named Terrance Dicks...... .......Planet of the Spiders...... The effect was instantaneous. I was terrified. (Watching this years later during a re-run held disappointment for me as nothing shown on screen could conjure up what my imagination did.) I received as a Christmas present a small screen TV (quite a big deal way back when)- the type with the twin aerials that you had to adjust every time you breathed in their direction, which allowed me freedom from the lounge and my fathers dictatorial decree that only what HE wanted to watch would be allowed on HIS TV. Finally, on my brothers 6th birthday in January of 1977 we both sat down to watch a guy named Tom Baker play the character I had read about, in an adventure called The Face of Evil. I was in love. Tom Baker has always been my Doctor. Years later I would come to realise that the first novelisation I read dealt with the changing of the guard from Pertwee to himself, and the first televised adventure I can clearly remember watching was Baker inhabiting the role. I asked for a scarf to be knitted that looked like his, which resides carefully placed in a box in my loft to this day. When he regenerated at the end of Logopolis I cried for 2 days and instantly set about hating the impostor in the cricketing outfit. The hate didn't last long. As much I had connected with Baker, it was the Doctor and his continuing adventures which had me hooked at that time. Davidson came and went, Colin Baker arrived and my sensibilities and outlook on life changed as I matured. I wasn't enamoured at all with Bakers psychotic take, and although he mellowed, Doctor Who as a visual medium wasn't cutting it for me anymore. I had far too much going on and whilst I watched I didn't pay attention. McCoy arrived to a whimper and that was that. I gave up after suffering all the way through to Dragonfire. In 1988, with college and my chosen career path infront of me I bid farewell to the Doctor and his companions. Life took over. I studied and studied and studied. Worked part time to earn cash to blow at weekends whilst relying on my father to slush my fund when it came to tuition fees et.c. Then an odd thing happened- as my studies drew to a close and I obtained the necessary qualifications to enter my chosen profession rumours began of a televised Who movie to be broadcast in May that year. While I didn't love it, I loved McGanns take on the Doctor and subsequently the whole Time War ethos. I began to look up old episodes and pretty soon the embers were re-ignited. Falling in love all over again felt pretty natural, and whilst delving through an entire back catalogue of Pertwee, Troughton, my beloved Tom Baker, Davidson and to a lesser extent Colin Baker (McCoy unfortunately never made it back into my life) over the forthcoming years something truly wonderful happened: Russell T Davies. That's about as succinct as I can be after all of these years. My thanks for allowing me to ramble. Oh, and those of you wondering if Doctor Who had any bearing on me choosing the medical profession? Absolutely not. That was the Carry On movies.... I thought all Doctors did was have fun and chase pretty nurses. How wrong I was. ;) SJW.
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For Colin I would say the following are my favorites: Davros And the Pirates (some like, some don't; I love it) Project Twilight Project Lazarus Arrangements for War The Holy Terror The One Doctor The Sandman (though this is a controversial choice, I love how they use the dark side of the Doctor in it) The Spectre of Lanyon Moor (Good Brigadier story) Of course, there are many other good ones -- just these are the ones I get the most out of.
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It's Davison ;)
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...I couldn't understand that it wasn't them directly, it was the BBC that wanted to drop WHO like a hot potato. When they initially aired I blamed them both personally for the shit I believed their characters to be. Age and investigation and a revitalised love of WHO led me to a completely different opinion. They will never share the same place as Tom Baker, and now Matt Smith and Christopher Eccleson do, but (with the exception of McCoy - a wrong I am setting about righting) I don't see them as poor as once I believed.
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Oh Jesus..... (apologies HornOrSilk..) I would wilt after 5 fucking seconds....
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Is from WhoosierCon II. I had a hotel room right over the pool. That night, Sly and Craig Charles had what appears to be an all night, drunken, pool party. While I didn't go join them, I heard them all night and it was funny to see them the next day. Of course, Craig had already been outrageous before this. The night before the convention, he went to a bar, and apparently, passed out drinking. He said someone used his forehead to put out a cigarette that night -- a mark which was on him so I assume it was true. Craig really was like Dave Lister come to life!
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June 11, 2011, 7:51 a.m. CST
red43jes- the coat of many colours was supposed to be a relection of the Doctors psyche at the time...
by sam jacksons wig
....mad, confusing. It matched the Colin Baker era perfectly.
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Ok.. this is for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2SI7SO_5Vw&feature=related Someone trying to do a scene from "The Juggernauts." Where Mel works with Davros!
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...... even during my "Button Moon" phase he has always been Davidson to me!! And his wife has always been known as "Sandra Dickinsdson"....... ;););)
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Your few words gave me a big laugh. Maybe Ms Langford should not be judged by her short time on Doctor Who.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=josI9YR45dI&playnext=1&list=PLE307256C50CFD898 This is a great trailer for a film which never was made..
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I somehow got beyond it.. but it took time! And often when writing about him, I have to make sure I don't throw in a Davidson!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5MTIl8uKQU&feature=related Just awful.
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As the closing credits! Fact!
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June 11, 2011, 8:24 a.m. CST
My 10 year old has just watched the Bonnie Langford screaming clip....
by sam jacksons wig
...and likened her to a possessed lawnmower. I rest my case......
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aside from the ending of caves of androzani. and the only Mccoy appearances I've seen are Ghost Light & the 1995 movie. I will get to them eventually, but sadly at the moment have very little I can contribute to this discussion. I was rather pissed that amazon has a ton of classic who at super low prices this week but I'm broke until the 15th. Hopefully the sale holds for a few more days, that would be a nice birthday present to myself.
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June 11, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST
Thanks also for the info posted about the audio stories for Dr 6 and Dr 7
by Rebel Scumb
I've been curious to check out some of the audio stuff. I made some radio serials in college and always felt audio dramas were kind of a lot art form that I wish more people appreciated. They're kind of like a book in that they really engage the imagination to make the audience an active participant.
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Yes, it seems in the US at least to be a lost art form, but the BBC continues to make them and some are great. I love what they did with Dirk Gently, for example.
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I am attempting to watch them all in chronological order, at least those that still exist. Finished the Hartnell era, and now onto the Troughtons. It's a real shame that there aren't more of his stories surviving, but luckily the Target novelisations are filling in in the gaps nicely. Currently on The Dominators, and just had to say that the Quarks are amazing in that unique Doctor Who way, whereby they're so shit they're good. Not a classic, but still highly enjoyable. Quake in fear at these mighty robots. = ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHQs2q8RiC8
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This has probably been mentioned, and there are plenty of online 'Who' resources, but Big Finish Audio puts out a neat (and free) online magazine called 'Vortex' covering their productions. There is a link to it on their website. Also, for anyone interested in audio adventures involving the Seventh Doctor & Ace, BBV (I think it was BBV) released several productions with Sylvester playing a thinly veiled Doctor renamed either/both 'The Professor' and 'The Dominie' in the series (full disclosure that I have never heard any of these, so I really don't know how good - storywise - they are).
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I never realized that wasn't featured in many of the other openings. That's actually my favorite part to play on my guitar when I'm playing the theme. Unfortunately, hardly any of my friends and band mates are familiar with the tune, so it does't have much of an impact. My favorite version of the theme is the one that orginally played at the beginning of the Tom Baker era. You can hear the all the notes really well on that one and it has a lot of character. A lot of the later ones has too many effects or the notes were played too high of a key for my tastes. The newest theme doesn't even have the same opening low bouncy notes as the origninal. The new theme has an orchestra playing three acending chords before we hear the familar high pitched "whirring" of the original theme. I like the new theme, but I was pretty shocked when I first heard it. My first reaction, was that it's not Doctor Who. But it does seem to capture the "spirit" of the theme even if it's not the same. Plus, I love the Doctor's new theme...is it called, "Next Stop Everywhere?" Anyway, that thing is epic! I love it.
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This audio production is a spinoff of Doctor Who, that features a Time Lord that I guess escaped the Time War. The Minister doesn't feature the Doctor that I know of, but both Sly McCoy and Paul McGann are in the cast. They're even talking about making a Minister of Chance movie. I have no clue if it's canon or at all related to the BBC. Have any of you listened to this? http://www.ministerofchance.com/about.htm
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I'm going from memory here, since it's been quite a while. I had remembered some people doing Who now who were writing some of those audios. Checking Wiki, it looks like the first two were written by Mark Gatiss. At one point, they had to change the name of Sophie Aldred's character to Alice from Ace so as to avoid a lawsuit. The last one in the series, Punchline, was definitely good. That one was written by Robert Shearman using an alias. <br> <br> There were also some audios of Nick Briggs playing the 9th Doctor in all but name, before Big Finish started doing the Doctor Who audios. BBV also did some licensed audios where they had licensed different monsters. They had licensed K-9 for 2 audios (and he had his "Mistress" with him), some Zygon audios, some Sontaran audios and so on. Unfortunately, they also did a Rani audio... written by Pip and Jane Baker. I have absolutely no memory of that even with seeing the title lists in wiki, so I'm guessing I have just mercifully blocked out any memory of that audio. <br> <br> They also did 6 audios for Faction Paradox, before it started changing companies. All of them were written by Lawrence Miles. This might entice some people while serve as a warning for others.
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June 11, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST
jawshco - I know it's out there, but I've avoided it for a few reasons
by DoctorTom
First, I thought Death Comes to Time was complete rubbish. They tried to turn Doctor Who into Star Wars with their "padawan" routine. They also ignored the Paul McGann movie (I won't get into the spoilers unless someone wants to debate it, but given the choice of the McGann movie vs. DCTT, I'll take the McGann movie). <br> <br> Also, they didn't get Stephen Fry back as the Minister of Chance, which would have been the big draw of the character in the first place. Having McCoy and McGann involved has tempted me slightly, but I think I have too many scars from DCTT to really want to risk it.
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By Keff McCulloch. I'm still trying to find it.
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She was such an improvement on Bonnie Langford. Plus seeing at age eight I couldn't see myself fighting daleks like the doctor did so the idea that you could save the universe with what appeared to be a can of hair mousse and a baseball bat meant I found her a lot more appealing than screaming Bonnie Langford. The McCoy years were a wasted opportunity - just as the stories got good and he got a real handle on the part they killed it as I remember being only able to watch when my mum was out as otherwise we would be forced to watch Coronation St. which was on at the same time. As ways to kill a series you don't want Yentob and Grade found the perfect weapon.
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The Rani... Less cool
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Plus, I love the Doctor's new theme...is it called, "Next Stop Everywhere?"
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AICN! Why do you keep cutting my messages in half?
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Let's try posting this again. Anyway, I think you mean "I Am The Doctor". The version they played at the 2010 Proms was really great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I80pc9jZ_t8
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Sorry, I got the title wrong. I found it. It's called "Next Stop Everything," here: http://youtu.be/v_m1rPuOwwk Which is almost identical to the "I Am the Doctor" Track except for the middle section which sounds very triumphant. Weird that it has two titles. When I watch the show on subtitles for Season 5, it says "Next Stop Everything." Doesn't matter. Pretty much the same brilliant tune!
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Awesome and made up for a rather weak first half. The finale minute will be controversial, but I love it.
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June 12, 2011, 4:24 a.m. CST
Unpublished? DocBackers, what did you all do when I was asleep?????
by sam jacksons wig
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June 12, 2011, 4:24 a.m. CST
Unpublished? DocBackers, what did you all do when I was asleep?????
by sam jacksons wig
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June 12, 2011, 4:24 a.m. CST
Unpublished? DocBackers, what did you all do when I was asleep?????
by sam jacksons wig
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June 12, 2011, 4:39 a.m. CST
AICN has been attacked by the Sony Hackers!!!
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
Or The Rani. Where have all the articles gone?
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June 12, 2011, 4:59 a.m. CST
Did someone at AICN hate running an actual popular column in Coaxial?
by V'Shael
Did Merrick forget to ask permission or something?
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June 12, 2011, 7:01 a.m. CST
It's sabotage.... Sabo, from the Belgian meaning....
by sam jacksons wig
..." DocBacks are getting too big and need to be brought down a peg or three" and Tage, from the Tiwanese meaning " We can't allow something that has about 600 to 1000 posts per week to flourish because we all feel wounded that SGU has been cancelled."
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...there are a few "negative" Dr Who comments lurking around, such as "I'll take anything over another fucking Dr Who TB..." Ah....the price that comes with unmitigated success.
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I got some birthday money (gotta love grandparents!!) so I ended up ordering 'The horror of fangrock' + 'rememberance of the daleks' + 'the two doctors' (the only multidoctor story I haven't seen) from amazon! The funny thing is, while I've seen 'tomb of the cybermen', out of the dvds I actually own, the only appeareances I have of the 2nd doctor are the multidoctor stories. I actually quite like Patrick Troughtons portrayal, but I find the stories overall for the 1st and 2nd doctor a bit hard to sit through (with some exceptions, 'an unearthly child and the 1st Dalek story arc is quite good, and I enjoyed 'the aztecs') I will eventually get some more. I'd like to pick up the Wargames if only because thats where I understand a lot of the timelord mythology for the series was originally established. And while I'm not ambitious enough to try and get every story on dvd, I would like to have at least all the big events, the regenerations, the introductions to important characters, etc. Does anyone else have any 2nd doctor recommendations?
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I was reading reviews on amazon, that this story was highly controversial due to its level of violence when it first aired, but in recent years has been given more respect as it seems a bit ahead of its time in satiring reality shows and what not. I was wondering what everyones opinions on it are? (I haven't seen it, but don't mind mild to moderate spoilage)
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June 12, 2011, 11:16 a.m. CST
The funny thing is, Herc was the one who put up all the Doctor Who threads, this one's the planned one per week by Merrick
by DoctorTom
and, again, many thanks for continuing with the weekly DocBacks. <br> <br> I imagine there will be the rumblings in other threads early July when Torchwood comes back and gets more threads then.
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Horror of Fang Rock and Remembrance of the Daleks are excellent choices. The Two Doctors suffers a little, but it is nice to have Colin Baker and Troughton together. I saw them together at a convention doing the bickering act and it was wonderful. <br> <br> As for 2nd Doctor videos, I would say The War Games is one that should absolutely be bought. It's the last one with Troughton and, despite being a 10 parter, doesn't feel like it's padded the way some of Pertwee's stories do at 6 parts. <br> <br> The Mind Robber is another one to consider - it has the first episode as something completely different, then has the Land of Fiction for the other 4 parts. <br> <br> I just watched last week the "revisited" Seeds of Death and it's not bad as a story. It's the 2nd appearance of the Ice Warriors, and the first time the Ice Lords were shown. <br> <br> Invasion is also a good one, despite the Cybermen's ultimate plan not standing up to scrutiny. This story was missing 2 episodes, but had Cosgrove Hall do animations for the missing episodes. <br> <br> If you don't have it, you might consider Doctor Who Lost in Time. It has some of the single episodes for Troughton and Hartnell that don't have complete stories still existing. You'd get some episodes with Ben, Polly and Jamie, then some with Jamie and Victoria and with Jamie and Zoe. The First Doctor has some excellent episodes there, some from The Dalek's Master Plan and The Crusdade. They also have a few isolated video bits for episodes that don't exist.
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Yes, at the time in England I heard that people had complained about the level of violence, but I had always liked that story and had considered it one of the best for the season (depending on my mood, I'll sometimes rate it as the best that season, beating out Colin's Dalek story).
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June 12, 2011, 11:35 a.m. CST
An amusing thought from watching AGMGTW on BBCA last night...
by DoctorTom
Madame Kovarian mentioned the "endless war" against the Doctor. Is Moffat setting the Church up to be descended from Torchwood? It would certainly be a way to keep the season 2 Torchwood anti-Doctor thing going on while being able to avoid stepping on RTD's toes in Hollywood by changing the name from a series appearing elsewhere. Maybe this group has developed from the Torchwood group that disappeared.
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http://io9.com/5811061/kindergartner-performs-doctor-who-monologue-for-school-talent-show
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the Church here seems to be militantly anti-Doctor. Why would they then agree to work with the Doctor in The Time of Angels/ Flesh and Stone? There wasn't any indication there that the Church wanted to destroy the Doctor, and it didn't seem like it was all set up as a trap for him. It suggests that by the end of the season we will see Kovarian's faction dealt with and perhaps more reasonable people taking over. <br> <br> Then again, the Time of Angels should have taken place after AGMGTW, so the clerics should already know about the Doctor and shouldn't have needed River's assauagements that the Doctor is worth an army. They would have known it from the Battle of Demon's Run.
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I'm glad the kindergartner was allowed to do the monologue. <br> <br> It kind of wants me to see Moffat do a Children in Need special with the child doing a young Matt Smith and Caitlan back as a young Amy.
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June 12, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST
And, final ratings for A Good Man Goes to War shows a 2 million jump from initial ratings
by DoctorTom
final ratings 7.57 million. It just shows how much time shifting is going on when over 25% of the audience is watching it later.
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June 12, 2011, noon CST
And, after having spent 6 years in Wisconsin, I can appreciate the winning Ice Shanty TARDIS in BBCA's "Where's the TARDIS" Competition
by DoctorTom
I just wish they'd said which part of Wisconsin they're in. Still, congratulations to the Bull family. I'm sure they'll enjoy the 1st prize of all 47 years of Doctor Who on DVD and an exclusive screening.
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What if it is Canton in the suit when the Doctor gets shot... Ok, this sounds crazy, but consider this part of the conversation in the oval office. Doctor "Thanks Canton." Canton "If after five minutes, he doesnt give a satisfactory answer, I'll shoot him myself." Doctor, with a wry grin on his face "Also thanks. " Yes this can be seen as a throwaway joke, but it struck me, what if the Doctor's second thanks was for a future event in which Canton would help the Doctor fool those at war with him into thinking he is dead? I could just be completely loony though, so pay no mind to the man behind the curtain.
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There wold be lots of better candidates (young River, older River, himself) to get. <br> <br> Now it would be a kick in the head if the 1103 year old Doctor sent a letter to the 908 year old Doctor that he needed help making it look like he's killing himself, and to meet him at that location and, by the way, slip on this astronaut outfit.
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June 12, 2011, 12:36 p.m. CST
Though, we'll probably find out that it's not one of the regulars in the suit
by DoctorTom
since they're all present at that time, and it seems like they're trying to make a point of not having a person run into themselves at two separate points in their time streams at the same time this season. (Yes, I know about Amy and little Amy in the Nile Penguin universe, but as Rory said "To be fair, that universe did explode.") <br> <br> This not-crossing-your-own-timestream thing is the most likely reason for River not going to help at the battle of Demon's Run, she couldn't afford to be there while her consciousness was there as a baby (even though the body was a Flesh avatar). Notice how she didn't appear until after baby Melody was gone from the premises in both body and mind.
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I don't have overmuch to contribute to historical threads, since the old episodes are ancient history to me (having watched them when I could contemporaneously) and I have not had the time or burning motivation to revisit them since. But, I'd feel lonely and sad to evacuate these threads, and besides, I'd feel like I'd be letting our side down. So, here's this rant, then. My regeneration to Nu Who came slowly. I was never fully taken with Eccles, (except for his long-running stint on The Goon Show), and Tennant was getting there, but not-quite cooked somehow. He was too much of a frantic emu. However - there is one thing I really bonded with him; his ever-exasperated "Why does no one ever listen to me?" I enjoyed that - I understood it - because it was awfully true to life. I'm guessing none of us haven't had that same feeling when the crowd around us was obviously running in the wrong direction against our sage advice, and, especially in this group, I'm guessing more than a few of us quoted the Doctor verbatim under our breath when it happened. Now to my Nu Doc... and I really kinda miss that aspect. Everybody listens to this guy - or, at least, does not discount him - whether he's wearing a Fez, derailing his own monologues, or spinning around like a pensioner trying to remember where he left his car keys. I'm not so sure that "my problem" with Doc Mach 5 is so much he has too much power (he's used a lot less than Tennant) as it is he has become unquestioned. If everybody immediately falls in line and defers to your judgement, you seem a lot more powerful, even if you use less power. There are no personnel complications on the path to victory. Ummm. Ok. That's all.
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First off, casting decisions like Bonnie Langford killed Classic Doctor Who stone dead. You don't go from the hotness that was Peri - even with her fauxmerican accent - and end up with such a worthless companion like Mel. She's supposed to be a genius with computers but all she did was scream, scream, and scream. And then we go from Mel to Ace. Ace sucked, even with all this revisionist talk about her great characterization. Sorry, but she sucked. Maybe she's an icon of lesbian empowerment but otherwise she's clown shoes. "Ice Hot, Professor!" Yeah, eff you, Ace. Here's hoping she had a timely accident with her Nitro-9. Now, as for Colin Baker. It's not his fault John Nathan-Turner was all coked up [at least I hope he was coked up and not making such stupid decisions without any drug excuses] and acting like a proto-RTD with all the stupid ideas he came up for the show. That dreadful costume as JN-T's idea, not Colin's. It was not Colin's idea to play The Doctor as unlikable either; again, that was JN-T. So the ratings drop, Michael Grade tries to kill the show, a whole season is done with The Doctor on trial and then the BBC fires Colin because of declining ratings even though it was all JN-T's fault. So yeah, he refused to come back for the regeneration scene. But going back to Colin's casting...how'd he get the role? JN-T met him at a party and thought he was funny. That's how he became the 6th Doctor. So then we jump to the McCoy Era. Horrible. It had the worst scripts not written by RTD in the history of the show. Paradise Towers? Krap. Time and the Rani? Krap. The Greatest Show in the Galaxy? Krap. Ghost Light? Krap. Survival? Total krap. It is super low budget, the acting is atrocious - and I'm not talking about McCoy - and the writing is horrible. No wonder the show was cancelled; it deserved to be at that point. Say what you want about the 1996 TV Movie, it showed the BBC how to make Doctor Who with a decent budget and production values. It is light years away in quality compared to where Classic Who ended [Survival]. But back to The Rani. I'd love for the character to be brought back and written by Moffat. Madame Korvorian - orwhatevathaphukhernameis - seems like a stand in for a properly written Rani. Just go watch "Camelot" on Starz and you'll see who should portray The Rani...Eva Green, and as with just as much menace as she's giving her character Morgan.
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At present my classic era collection includes: An Unearthly child Daleks/Edge of destruction The aztecs The spearhead from space Inferno The claws of axos The 3 doctors Carnival of monsters Robot the ark in space the sontaran experiment genesis of the daleks Pyramids of mars hand of fear deadly assassin The robots of death talons of weng-chiang The Key to time season set city of death keeper of trakken logolopolis castrovalva the kings demons ressurection of the daleks caves of androzani ghost light I might be forgetting 1-2 others, I loand a bunch to my brother recently who has also gotten into classic era who
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I think the funniest thing about the mcgann movie is that chinese kid he teams up with, at the beginning is taking part in some gangland hit with a huge shoot out and lots of fatalities, and then somehow transitions into wacky kid sidekick by the end of the movie
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June 12, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST
Actually, lynxpro, that's not why Colin Baker didn't come back for Time and the Rani
by DoctorTom
He didn't come back because they would only guarantee the 4 episodes, he wouldn't have a full season's work guaranteed, and Colin Baker has stated that it wasn't worth giving up on being able to get other work for only 4 episodes.
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June 12, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST
And, the McCoy era did not have the worst script in the entire history of Doctor Who
by DoctorTom
The Twin Dilemma gets that dubious honor, with Timelash wanting to take second place. <br> <br> You'll also find that most people completely disagree with you about Ghost Light.
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is the Romans. It's more of a comedy one in spots, but does give Ian and Barbara good stuff to do.
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June 12, 2011, 2:38 p.m. CST
So, how is Merrick deciding the episodes to watch (aside from the one that introduced him to Who)?
by Red43jes
Ya, just wondering how they are being picked..I'd love to see him do "Doc-a-Day"...review an episode daily...maybe do it just for a week or two? Could be some fun. I'd love to see some of the first 3 doctors reviewed (Patrick Troughton PLEASE!) Also, PLEASE switch it up on the Doctors. I'm wanting to watch the Pertwee era episode, "Inferno"...maybe we can get a review of that one sometime in the near future? :-)
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June 12, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST
He picked Time and the Rani because it's coming out on DVD next Tuesday.
by DoctorTom
It wouldn't surprise me if we have a talkback about Frontios next Friday since that's the other one coming out in the US Tuesday.
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June 12, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST
I thought Merrick was going to change it up every week.................
by axcel1
"Time And The Rani" and "Frontios" were being released on DVD, so, we were discussing them. Then, the general topic of the good and bad of Who, favorite companion, ect. I could be wrong, but, I think that's how it's going to work each week.
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Or "Doc-A-Week"
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Guys, First off, DocTom, ya, I saw how he had picked Time and the Rani, and I agree he will probably pick Frontos next week. I get it, its all good. :-) More or less, I was getting at the fact not every week is gonna be new release Doc Who week. Then how will Merrick pick? axcel1 thanks for agreeeing about Doc-a Day. Still hoping he will review the episode, then when he finishes, he tells us what he will review next. I'll Netflix the episodes so I can better follow reviews. Heck, it would be fun to see the rest of the Docbackers do the same!
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In 'the pandorica opens' the part where Matt smith is organizing the roman legion and then just turns to the camera joyously and says "Romans!" I always wondered if that was meant to be a nod to the Hartnell story. And regarding Ghostlight, I liked it. It was very odd jumping into a McCoy adventure without any sense of the current version of the show at the time, or even easing into it with colin bakers stuff first. VERY VERY 80s. But I enjoyed it.
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because it so stringently relied on evolution... And I've been given to understand a plurality of Americans have a problem with evolution. Though they might be under-represented in a Doctor Who or generic Sci-Fi talkback.
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I'm Canadian so couldn't say for sure.
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Yes, but what did Colin actually work on right after he was fired? Did he have many opportunities? From what I remember, he was hitting the US convention circuit at the time and also doing the professional fanfic videos called "The Stranger" back with Nicola Bryant [Peri] with slightly different character names. I'll gladly take "The Twin Dilemma" or "Time Flight" over any story from the McCoy Era. At least those stories had acceptable production values to them. Everything from the McCoy Era screams community access television production with a rich Trenchcoat Mafia kid included because he owned an Amiga so he could edit their video productions and add cheesy sfx to them.
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Tom Baker's comments on the miniature of Kroll requiring 20 operators and being twice the size of the Television Centre left me trembling on the couch with laughter.
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So does anyone have any theory as to the voice that said this in the Tardis to river song in 'the pandorica opens'?
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He was upset because he wasn't offered a full season. He said that he didn't want to commit to only 4 episodes because he could lose jobs over it; it doesn't matter whether he actually did or not, it was his perception that he wouldn't be able to take anything. I don't know what he was doing then; I know he's done a lot of theater and might have ended up doing some of that when he turned JNT down. But, it wasn't that he was mad at JNT that he didn't come back; if they had offered another full season he would have come back and done it.
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June 12, 2011, 11:41 p.m. CST
Tom Baker commentaries are usually worth the price of the DVD
by DoctorTom
He will often come up with some off the wall comments that are just hilarious.
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It might have been one of the Silents. There had been the theory that it might be Omega or the Vaelyard or someone like that. The best theory on the voice is that it's Nick Briggs with a ring modulator. ;)
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overly complex theories, were just complicated fan-wanking? Seriously, just look at the amount of fake spoilers that were around. Isn't it far more likely that Omega has nothing to do with this? Even Madame Eye Patch was supposedly living in a different timeline or some such complicated shit. Not a word about a ganger flesh bleed through.
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For standard TV drama, there should be some type of foreshadowing or presentation of information so that people don't just go "who's he" when you reveal the big bad. <br> <br> The "Valeyard" would have a better chance than Omega if any bad time lord were involved, and that's only if it were the Dream Lord. Even there, they haven't really done any setting up of him to be involved this season. Heck, if there were any other Time Lord involvement, the best theory so far is that it's the Doctor who got sealed outside the universe when he closed the cracks in the Big Bang. And I'm not sure that Moffat wants to tackle that Doctor as being involved. <br> <br> At least they snuck in the Cybermen in AGMGTW so that putting them in the end can follow as a consequence of what the Doctor did to them here. (I also note how there were the different theories around about the Cybermen because they didn't have the "C" on their chest, but nobody mentioned that it could just be them a couple of thousand years in our future.) <br> <br> With the quick recap of the history of Rory in AGMGTW, I don't know how much of Season 5 Moffat would want to play off of as setting up Season 6. He seems to have evolved the Alliance from where it was to a group of (presumably) humans who are in an "endless war" with the Doctor. <br> <br> The only group we really know of right now that could fit with that description would have been the old Torchwood, which could conceivably have evolved into the Church if you accept that there were some old Torchwood holdovers left around somewhere (the missing Torchwood group was never mentioned in Doctor Who, only in Torchwood, so they might not be fair game). <br> <br> The one other possibility is the Time Agency. That's something Moffat appropriated from Talons of Weng Chiang, but might still have an interest in. We're in the right time period for their involvement, and a natural hostility between a human time travel agency and the Time Lords would certainly be plausible. Moffat seems to want to expand on the 50th-51st century "history" of the universe, and it would be only a matter of time before Moffat would come back to them. Is the Church actually the Time Agency or something descended from it, or might they just be working with the Time Agency? It's possible, we might find out that the ship in the Lodger was the Time Agency's, but that the Silents were manipulating the agency somehow (or they found a way to get out a posthypnotic message to everyone through broadcasts to "ignore any commands to kill us"). <br> <br> Really, though, it looks like it's the Church and the Silents, with probable Cybermen complicity (given that they're in episode 13, and the setting up that they're monitoring everything in the sector that the baby was in). It's just a question of what the history and agenda of the Church are.
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June 13, 2011, 8:54 a.m. CST
oh, that "yes" should have been indicating "yes, we're pretty convinced now he's not showing up"
by DoctorTom
unless you want to read too much into that Church symbol with the "Omega" in it. <br> <br> Then again, those same arguments could be made that the symbol means "Sacred Omega", and the Sacred Omegas were a terrorist cult that were in the "Ruling from the Tomb" episode of (Babylon 5) Crusade. This would of course mean that Babylon 5 and Doctor Who took place in the same Universe. The Omega coming back is only very slightly more "plausible" than this in that the odds aren't absolute zero. <br> <br> Of course, watch all the talk in Gaiman's episode of Time Lords possibly being alive outside the regular universe be foreshadowing....though I would have expected Sexy to drop a clue about Omega instead of dropping a clue about River if Omega were actually coming back (there really has been no foreshadowing of him except for what you can read into the one line in the Doctor's Wife about other time lords being around, and the symbol of the Church). <br> <br> Personally, from a foreshadowing bit I'm more interested in the bit in The Rebel Flesh where we saw the card at the top of the cardhouse change from a face card to one with spots, then change back. It was framed so that you could tell that it was an obvious but subtle change. That seems like something more tangible that will be elaborated on.
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And it it began to unravel well before this episode. Not sure if it was because of budget but the costumes, art direction, the monsters, the Rani...all struck me as gaudy, cartoonish and silly. I know it's a kids show at heart but the show lost it's edge....both aesthetically and in the writing. <p> And Colin Baker's portrayal of the Doctor was fine...do not underestimate what a horrible choice it was to don that ridiculous coat. It immediately undercut any gravitas the Doctor had. The Doctor always stood out even on Earth, but getting silly with the outlandish outfits....starting with Peter Davidson's goofy cricket atire...was a mistake.<p> Even in an episode like Horns Of The Nimon with its bare sets and giant, clumsy minotaur masks was still acceptable with an almost stage like presentation.<p> I bailed on Doc who 3/4 the way through Colin Baker's era and the Sly Mcoy era was unbearable.
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June 13, 2011, 1:05 p.m. CST
Ooh, just saw a good mention of why Lorna will be important.
by DoctorTom
We do know that she's pointed the Doctor to the Gamma Forests, and the Doctor hadn't met her before even though she had met him. <br> There's also the comment by Sexy that "The only water in the Forest is the "River" <br> <br> The point that got mentioned that made everything click for me was that Lorna's full name was given as Lorna Bucket. In order to catch water (River) you need a Bucket.
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I think so, at least metaphorically. <br> Someone in the medical profession who seems to be bumbling to start with, but has his heart in the right place and steps up when he needs to.
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I have it on the very best authority: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGdxMJ1H_Mo For my money, Rory is becoming/was becoming/will be missed as the most competent, least irritating companion of Nu Who, and a lion's share of the old ones. Sadly, The Doctor is long on Lois Lanes and critically short on Robins.
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Could just be creative license, could be a mistake, could be important: She's working with the Silents. She makes plans with the Silents. Which means that, unless she's tatooed like Guy Pierce in "Memento," she Remembers the Silents.
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Everybody seems to remember the Silents. Hell, they remember them backwards. Prisoner Zero was very pleased to remember the Silents. Fish Vampire Lady's people supposedly saw them... ... as long as "The Silents" and "The Silence" are both the same thing, anyway. That still nettles me. There's something hairy about the whole thing...
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June 13, 2011, 7:11 p.m. CST
It depends also how you interrupt the phrase: Silents will fall
by Rebel Scumb
Back when we thought it was "silence will fall" in series 5, it made it seem like, ya know the universe will come to an end or something, and thus silence will have FALLEN over all reality. or something like that But if the Silents are a race, then is their 'fall' the defeat they suffer at the hands of the of the doctor in the 1960s? In other words is 'silents will fall' a badass battle cry of the silents, or is it them just stating the fact of their inevitable demise?
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The Silents gave them a posthypnotic suggestion to remember them.
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June 13, 2011, 7:34 p.m. CST
Speaking of Doctors who don't film their transition, and also referencing the 8th Doctor (movie)...
by dderidex
...is it just me, or did the start of the new Doctor Who series, with Eccleston as the new Doctor...seem like it was going to use McGann? Specifically, the first few minutes of 'Rose', when the Doctor runs into Rose and the Autons. Tells her to 'run', is holding a bomb, and blows up the whole building. Next time we see him in Rose's flat, he is looking in a mirror and acting all surprised at his new appearance. That and Rose apparently not recognizing him? I can't find any reference to any planning anywhere that it should have been McGann's Doctor who first encountered Rose, "died" with the blast at the apartment store, and so we get Eccleston as a fresh regeneration in that episode... But the script SO MUCH seemed to call for that.
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RTD had seen that introducing the regeneration at the start will just confuse a lot of the audience who hadn't been exposed to Who, and that when the McGann movie did it, it resulted in the series being off the air for another 9 years. <br> <br> It's also pretty clear that he was looking for someone who didn't want to stay around long for the 9th Doctor, so that he could introduce the concept of regeneration at the end of the first season.
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June 13, 2011, 7:48 p.m. CST
eccelston's regeneration is one of the high points of the new era of Dr. Who
by Rebel Scumb
His "but you know what? So was I" is such a beautiful moment. I remember an ex-girlfriend, now friend of mine who I got into Dr. Who after we broke up calling me in tears after watching the series 1 finale and saying "I can't believe I'm bawling over fucking doctor who!"
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the "sparkly ex machina" wasn't actually something out of left field there, as it was something that had been shown in Boom Town, and Rose was trying to get back in contact with the Heart of the TARDIS. The hologram bit with Eccleston was wonderful, and the regeneration at the end was definitely one of the best. It certainly beats "I don't want to go" as final lines or getting tripped by a flat floor and regenerating into Sylvester McCoy.
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June 14, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST
doctortom - watched all of the regeneration scenes on you tube a while ago....
by sam jacksons wig
...and guess which regen they gave the most time to? Yup- Mr Tennants. As far a spectacle goes, it's rather good with the exploding TARDIS and what not, but as far as emotion? Zilch. They played it out FAAAAARR too long and actually had me asking "okay, when is this fucking thing going to happen now?" Poor Tom Baker must look back and think "I was given a bit of a short stick there! All peter Grimwade did was shout "Fall, Tom! Done? Right! Where's the fucking Watcher-Thingy? Come on people! I have lunch with Patrick Troughton in 25 minutes!!!" (or something like that...)
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June 14, 2011, 10:09 a.m. CST
rebel- rewatched matey, and it most definately sounds like "Silence" will fall.
by sam jacksons wig
If Moff hadn't called these things Silents then I would still be inclined to believe that Silence means something else entirely. And I do. The payoff has to be bigger than a disembodied voice making it's way into the TARDIS only to be dismissed with little to no furore. What did we get? A throwaway comment from the Moff on an episode of confidential? Either he has fucked up royally and changed his plans radically from what he first thought when the voice made it's appearance, or we have more to come, followed by an explanation and a payoff. Here's hoping!!!
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June 14, 2011, 10:25 a.m. CST
doctortom- it was far easier to introduce someone like the Master than it would be to roll out Omega at this point in time....
by sam jacksons wig
...firstly, we had seen him before numerous times since 1971. Secondly, explaining his history with the Doctor, even for a new audience was relatively easy and a quick buy in for both old and new fans. Thirdly, we have had almost as many actors play The Master as he Doctor (7 I think it is) so trawling through old Who looking for him is not difficult should one choose to do it. Omega on the other hand- that's QUITE a back story to fill, the character is not all too familiar with a new audience and it would require a boat load of exposition at this stage should he appear. No, I'm with you here. (as V'Shael will no doubt remind everyone that there was a point in which I wasn't.) It is much more likely to be the Alliance working to bring the Doctor down. Oh, and should they look to insert the Valeyard into things, now is the perfect time to start for a head to head in 2012. But not this year.
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He was the one of us who gave the Time Lords the ability to travel in time. Due to some political shenanigans he got thrown into a black hole. His mind lived on, and is rather pissed at the Time Lords for what they did.
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at least it's not showing it to me now. <br> <br> I was going to say: that said, I don't think they're bringing him back this season despite any groundwork laid by the Church symbols and by the offhand comment in the Doctor's Wife about Time Lords possibly being around outside the normal universe.
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June 14, 2011, 12:13 p.m. CST
They might be saving him for next year, or for the 50th Anniversary Story "The Doctors Who Haven't Croaked Yet"
by DoctorTom
Or a full-fledged the Eleven Doctors, with either short clips of the first few Doctors, or the Doctor gets sucked into a realm where everything looks like animated drawings, and he meets the older doctors there.
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June 14, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST
For the 50th anniversary, I think you're all constrained by
by V'Shael
what we saw on the Three Doctors and Five Doctors. All the Doctors brought together to solve a problem. I would hope that whoever is running the show in 2013, does something different, and tells a different type of story to celebrate the show. Like, maybe follow a story line through each of the incarnations, without actually having the doctors meet up or something.
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June 14, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST
Ya know, I can think of some characters I'd rather see other than Omega...
by Red43jes
Sorry, But the Valeyard, the Rani, and Omega are characters that really don't do it for me. I can think of some characters that haven't been used in a long time that could be interesting to see show up again. Sea Devils, Zygons, Yetis, and most of all, the Black and White Guardians. And since I'm a bit intrigued by the Celestial toymaker. He sounds like an interesting character that should have been used more than once, and from what I see, a book. Will we see the dream Lord return as well? I guess I look at Tom Bakers run and see that he only had 1 Cybermen run in. By the time they met up with Peter Davidsons Doctor, it was cool, because they hadn't been on Who in such a long time. Theres so many awesome Doctor Who creatures, some of which have only been used once, some of which just haven't been back in a LONG time, and instead of giving us another Dalek appearance (I like Daleks but man, we get too many stories with them!), howzabout we get some deeper creatures and villains to deal with?
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June 14, 2011, 2:23 p.m. CST
doctortom - at this stage of the game, yes it would be difficult......
by sam jacksons wig
... as to truly sell him as a BIG BAD there needs to be alot more pomp and circumstance instead of all of this under the radar stuff. If and when Omega arrives, an audience need to go "FUCK!" not "What the fuck?" Setting things in motion now would be like setting off a damp squib rather than a cavalcade of explosions. Or it just becomes another baddie the Doctor overthrows. Let's have him packed wih menace and a billion years of rage, resentment, malice and hatred!!!!
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Have the Doc in peril of becoming nothing as he is blasted back through his previous incarnations...and tie it in with the "We're past that..." comment from The Rebel Flesh.
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if they have him come back and try blowing through the timelock around the Time War in order to get at Rassilon and the other Time Lords - does Omega bother taking care of the Daleks in the Time War at the same time, or does he just ignore them, forcing the Doctor to take a hand to stop the Dalek faction?
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25th anniversary was not a multi-Doc story.</p> Personally, I really want multi-Docs for 50 though, but I'm greedy and don't want something so narrow as Smith + 1 or 2.</p> In my ideal fanwank wet dream it'd be something like "The 12 Doctors" (wherein The Valeyard has broken the laws of time and saved his previous incarnations at the moment of their regens, creating paradox's and multiple universes in which the previous Docs have continued to live (and more importantly, age), and it's up to the Doctors to put everything back to right. Recast 1-3 & 12 and beg, bribe, and kidnap 4-10) or </p>something similar to what you suggested, 11 has an adventure that causes him to cross paths with his previous selves (handled in the way the DS9 did with "Trials and Tribble-ations")
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14 episodes have been commissioned, but they will be spread over 2012 and 2013. I'm annoyed enough by one split season. But to have another split season with fewer episodes per year coming up to the anniversary takes the biscuit.
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Come on, back at Cole Hill and using the junkyard "I.M. Foreman" ? And having people on the phone saying things like "I thought you said the Doctor was an old bloke with white hair?" It was a McCoy story set contemporaneously with An Unearthly Child. So while it wasn't a multi-doc story, I think it represents exactly the kind of out-of-the-box thinking, I'd be looking for.
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If it's Private Eye or some tabloid, they're full of shit.
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That silly cow Tara Conlan was quoting the bullshit and debunked Private Eye piece. Until I see otherwise, it'll be 13 episodes plus a Christmas special in 2012. And the haters who want to predict the end of Doctor Who can go back to making shit up, and circle jerking themselves by repeating and believing each others lies like some great big daisy chain of a human cent-iPad.
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http://www.doctorwhonews.net/
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So I think that's pretty reliable. I dismissed the Private Eye rumours when the 14 episodes were announced. But it now seems there was a reason they didn't spell out when those 14 episodes would be broadcast.
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It wasn't his decision.
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June 14, 2011, 6:23 p.m. CST
What I meant was..................................................
by axcel1
The shortened season (series of specials) in 2009 was not something Tennant ask for.
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June 14, 2011, 6:25 p.m. CST
So, 2012 will bring us the horror of......................................................
by axcel1
DOCTOR WHO BANK HOLIDAY SPECIALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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June 14, 2011, 6:29 p.m. CST
So, I only one question for any UK Doctor Who fan.........................................
by axcel1
How many Bank Holidays do you guys have? A lot, I hope.
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I can see why he wouldn't be too proud with the direction or the script for that arc, aye. Don't know what else to say really... other than... River Song for The Rani! *ducks for cover*
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