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It's 'Day Of The Daleks' For This Friday's DOCTOR WHO Docback!!

 

 

from http://www.kasterborous.com/2010/08/18/karen-in-glasgow/

 

Merrick here...

...with our last Retro-WHO Docback before the Season/Series returns next week with 'Let's Kill Hitler!'

And, yes, we'll have a Friday Docback/Reader Reaction for the remainder of Season/Series Six...and for the Christmas episode (will a Christmas Day Docback work?  We'll find out...)...and so forth...with Retro-WHO Docbacks, news-round-ups, etc. peppered in-between, and beyond.  'Tis an institution, I say!  An INSTITUTION!  

 

COMING TO DVD SEPTEMBER 12 (U.K.) AND 13 (U.S.) 

 

"Day of the Daleks" (Pertwee, Story #60)

Available for preorder HERE in the U.S. and HERE in the U.K.

This is usually where I offer a relatively detailed sense of an episode's plot.  In this case, however, even a rough plot description would pretty much be a spoiler in itself.  So, suffice to say, "Day of the Daleks" is about what happens when The Doctor (Jon Pertwee), companion Jo Grant (Katty Manning)…

 
  

 

…and the gang from U.N.I.T are challenged by an assassination attempt that reaches from the future of our world into present day.  Commandos from the 22nd Century come back to snuff out an important figure (Sir Reginald Styles, played by Wilfred Carter) whose actions will someday have fateful consequences for our civilization.  Please keep in mind that this is a rather simplified and not an entirely just description.

Sound a bit like TERMINATOR?  It is, except "Day of the Daleks" preceded that film by 12 years.  This fact, and how both tales may've "dipped into the same pool" of established Science Fiction conceits, is discussed pointedly on the DVD's extras.  

Propulsively directed by Paul Bernard (he also directed WHO stories "The Time Monster" and "Frontier in Space") and tightly scripted by Louis Marks (WHO episodes "Planet of Evil," "The Masque of Mandragora," and "Planet of Giants"), "Day of the Daleks" is a fun romp which holds up nicely under repeated viewings (more on this below).  It is not bulletproof, and certainly not the epitome of thinking man's Science Fiction.  But it's fun, intriguing enough, and is in many ways a joy. 

This was my first Pertwee episode - I loved the hell out of both his characterization of The Doctor, and his performance of the role.  He's somewhere between James Bond and James T. Kirk, and it's hard not to be swayed by the charms of Pertwee casually sipping wine while throttling unknown intruders, or unnecessarily jumping onto a three wheeler with Jo to escape lumbering Ogrons (Klingons meet the original PLANET OF THE APES - they're enforcers sent to bag the assassin guerillas I mention above), when walking slowly away from the beasties probably would've done the trick.   

  

For all its energy, action, and compelling concept, "Day of the Daleks" is ultimately hamstrung by a breathtakingly inadequate finale - an "invasion" of sorts that is utterly lacking in scale, urgency, and spectacle.  An unfulfilling payoff to a conspiracy story which spans two centuries, and a roundly unsatisfying "make-or-break" moment for the human race.  Tragic to say the least.  And no, I'm not being "mean" here - even the episode's makers acknowledge the utter shame of this denouement.  HOWEVER, there's always the...



"Day of the Daleks" Special Edition

I don't feel the promotion of this fact has been anywhere close to satisfactory, but Producer Steve Broster has generated a "Special Edition" of this story that is included on a second DVD in this set (the original version of the episode is safely planted on its own disc -  each version features its own set of extras). 

What do I mean by "Special Edition"?  Check this out…


A number of tweaks - some large, some small - have been made throughout the episode.  Dalek voices, which sounded odd and a bit stilted in the broadcast version, have been replaced in the name of continuity/conformity (re-voiced by current Dalek voicer Nicholas Briggs - he worked to sound like Daleks of that era rather than 2005+ Daleks).  FX have been dramatically augmented via modern methodology, although a vast majority of them feel organic to the early 70s.  Attention was paid to film stock/textural appearance of film, new footage was shot using cameras native to the early '70s and then carefully married to the original film stock with surprising effectiveness.  

The result here is, on the whole, extremely impressive - creating a more fully realized, well-rounded DOCTOR WHO story that feels far truer to its original intent than the '72 broadcast iteration.  I rewatched the episode in full, and I'd argue that these changes made an already enjoyable story far more accessible than it used to be.  In general, these changes are not dramatic (a few are, though).  But, as the saying goes, "The Devil's in the details!"   

I know the idea of anyone enhancing, augmenting, or otherwise messing with DOCTOR WHO episodes might seem tremendously distasteful to longtime, impassioned WHOvians.  But I'll say this:  my wife was laughing at the closing battle/invasion of "Day of the Daleks" as I watched the original version.  She saw the Special Edition enhancements  - and she wasn't laughing anymore.  The newly embiggened climax  worked /felt that much better.  That's quite meaningful, and potentially a very significant weapon in helping DW reach new or skeptical audiences.  And this...is important. 

We'll be exploring the "Day of the Daleks" Special Edition in much greater detail in the coming weeks. Until then, ponder in the Docback below a question:  IF the original versions of the episodes were given the exact same treatment they are now enjoying, should BBC & Co. target further episodes for similar augmentation?   Should this become a standard practice, and why/why not?  At the moment, base your response on principle…realizing that your answer may change for the positive or negative once you see this particualr Special Edition material for yourself. 


ORIGINAL VERSION DVD extras include...


"BLASTING THE PAST"

Insight from...


-- Dave Owen (DOCTOR WHO Magazine)...

-- Barry Letts (Producer)...

-- Terrance Dicks (Script Editor)...

-- Nicholas Briggs (Dalek Voice 2005 -)...

-- Paul Cornell (Writer of DW novels and audio)...

-- Ben Aaronovitch (writer 1988-89)...

-- Anna Barry (Anat)...

-- Katy Manning (companion Jo Grant)...

-- Jimmy Winston (Shura)...

-- John Friedlander (monster maker)...

-- Ricky Newby (Dalek Operator), who talks about being forgotten on set while in costume...

-- Features an interesting discussion of adaptation of conceits in SF ("fishing from the same pool"), discusses similarities between this story, TERMINATOR, and Harlan Ellison's "Soldier." 

-- Evaluates whether or not Pertwee blasting an approaching Ogron with a ray gun was un-Doctorish...



 "A VIEW FROM THE GALLERY"

Barry Letts (Producer) and Mike Catherwood  (Vision Mixer - described by Catherwood as a "live film editor") BBC Television Centre remembrances of working - in the "gallery" control room of Studio TC2, where much of DOCTOR WHO was made.  Fascinating insight to the making of vintage WHO, which was amazingly complex despite its relatively simplicity.  Includes control room footage of an episode being filmed.



"NATIONWIDE"


Class 1M of Balgowan Primary School have been eagerly anticipating "an important person" for over a month.  The winners of the Radio Times Dalek Competition won a Dalek...



"BLUE PETER"


Dalek appearance with host Peter Purves (former Doctor companion Steven Taylor). 


 

 

 

 

— follow Merrick on Twitter ! ---

 

 

--- PREVIOUS DOCBACKS -------------------------------

 

S6 (1) DOCBACKS


"The Impossible Astronaut"

"Day of the Moon"

"The Curse of the Black Spot"

"The Doctor's Wife"

"The Rebel Flesh"

"The Almost People"

"A Good Man Goes To War"

 

RETRO-WHO DOCBACKS

"Time and the Rani"

"Merrick's Personal Journey With The Doctor / "Frontios"

"An Unearthly Child"

"The Gunfighters" / "The Edge Of Destruction"

"The Daleks," "The Awakening," "The Crash of the Elysium"

DOCTOR WHO Title Sequences & DW At Comic-Con 2011

Why Eccleston Left, Here Comes Caroline Skinner, And Season/Series Six Part 1 on Blu-Ray And DVD

"Paradise Towers" / New WHOvian Documentary / Newsbits

New Trailer For Season/Series Six Part 2

"Marco Polo" and "The Sun Makers"

 

 

 

 
 
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
 
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks"  - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks.  These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them.  Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:  
 
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)... 

2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity.  Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example.  "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well.  "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?"  Is NOT good.  

And, above all... 

3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way.  Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning.  Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated.  Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.  
 
In short, it's easy.  Be excellent to each other.  Now party on...
 
 

 
Readers Talkback
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  • Aug. 19, 2011, 12:48 p.m. CST

    Terrorists from the future

    by donkey_lasher

    This was a good story

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Well, we know what the discussion will be

    by HornOrSilk

    And I am glad to hear the net problems are now finished (or so I hope) for you. I know how it can be when writing something. Of course, for my own online writings (not comments) I started getting in the habit of writing everything in Word then copy/pasting it while keeping a copy for myself for the future. Just saves hassle.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    My erection...

    by DVaderRIP

    Literally, happened with approximately 3/4 of a second after seeing that picture. It's as if she has some svengali-like power over my member, manipulating it from a distance through will alone.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    which one of the 4 Docbacks are we now residing in?

    by sam jacksons wig

    Oh!! This one!!! Well met!!!

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    I'm glad to hear we're being institutionalized....

    by DoctorTom

    ...er, make that have become an institution.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    dvaderrip - cold showers......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..post an image of Catherine Tate over Gillans face- guaranteed to remove all erectile erm...unpleasantness.

  • Is that actually supposed to be Karen Gillan showing off an Amy Pond action figure, or was this a dramatic re-enactment of an upcoming scene with the giant robot Amy (which we were told about in the teasers) holding the regular Amy, as it would have been shot in the times of Barry Letts instead of doing it with CGI now?

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:05 p.m. CST

    Day of the Daleks!!! Pertwee! The Brig!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Was never a big fan of the Ogrons or the Eater...... :(

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:06 p.m. CST

    Doctom- I think we should all have been institutionalised years ago!!! ;))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Does the Numbskulls resonate with anyone here???

    by sam jacksons wig

    I used to piss myself laughing at that strip!!

  • .....taking me from one DocBack to another and repeating the same post over and over again...... CURSES!!!!!

  • Given Kovarian's comments about the endless war in A Good Man Goes To War, are we seeing the start of Time War II? (Unlike the first Time War, we might get to see all the major plot points for this war.) And, if we are, is Time War II going to extend past this season, and possibly even go up to the 50th anniversary? <br> <br> <br> TIME WAR II <br> The Doctor vs. the Rest of the Universe <br> This time it's personal. <br> <br> <br> Of course, different taglines could be used instead, although given the River Song involvement, and the killing of the Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut this is one of the times where saying 'This time it's personal' actually applies. Anyway, some other replacement taglines might be: <br> They don't stand a chance. <br> It's an even match. <br> God help us if he loses. <br> God help us if he wins. <br> <br> Of course, there can be the less serious taglines for it, such as: <br> Makes the Sontaran/Rutan War look like the Six Days War in comparison. <br> wibbly wobbly timey wimey. <br> Nobody started it. It started itself. Hello Paradox! <br> It's all fun until somebody loses an eye. <br> <br> (The last line affectionately dedicated to Madame Kovarian) <br> <br> If you can come up with a good tagline for the second Time War, please feel free to post it!

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:13 p.m. CST

    I used to love the numbskulls.

    by notspock2

    I wonder if there's a giant robot rory? because then there could be a giant robot Woody... ...Allen homage. ;-)

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:19 p.m. CST

    Ogrons and Daleks and Jo, oh my!

    by DoctorTom

    Day of the Daleks was a fun little romp overall, probably heightened by several factors: <br> 1) The Daleks weren't in the original draft but were written in afterward. As such, they don't end up getting overused in the story. Letting the Ogrons and human middlemen handle a lot of the action, with the Daleks in the position of having already conquered Earth...again...helps make them seem more of a credible threat. <br> 2) Terry Nation didn't write this episode. So, we get to avoid the carnivorous/poisonous/sentient/malevolent plants on plant Horticultura, use of plagues and diseases as a weapon, the Daleks effectively becoming a joke, and all the other problems that had crept in to Nation's writing for Doctor Who. <br> 3) The Ogrons are actually a fun race to have around. They made for good 'heavy muscle' back in the days before they could spring for the money to have an animatronic rhino's head on top of an actor. <br> 4) It was only a 4 parter, so it didn't suffer one of Pertwee's habitual problems of '3 episodes of story crammed into 6 episodes of running time'.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:21 p.m. CST

    Doctortom- from the last thread (or one of them...)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..Matey, don't worry- I wasn't calling you out or anything over my posts involving V'Shael. I appreciate you agreeing with me on it all, and yes, I have tried to remain pleasant and will continue to do so. It's V'Shaels choice to answer me or not, or to continue to carry whatever bad blood we've had in the past (and there has been quite a bit of it...). For me, I am well over it all and moved on quite some time ago. As far as I'm concerened, he has the right to ask or state what he desires. But we don't have to agree wih him!!! :)) No worries matey!!!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:22 p.m. CST

    It's not Time War II

    by HornOrSilk

    Time War II would only count if it were in the old universe.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:26 p.m. CST

    Day of the Daleks....

    by sam jacksons wig

    written by Louis Marks, who produced Middlemarch, a show I actually quite enjoyed. Day of the Daleks was very watchable, but for me (IMHO) very forgettable as part of the Who cannon.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Maybe it's a whole new time war.......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..with the Clerics insighting the Universe to rally agains the Doctor and his companions due to the unfortunate resonnance of his name and it's different meanings through different cultures. Maybe this takes place BEFORE the time war.... and this is the spark that begins it. Timey wimey wibbly wobbly.....

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Always loved this one

    by sunspot_mike

    because it tackles the Predestination Paradox head on. It's a time travel episode where they at least have a good discussion of it. The Blinovitch Limitation Effect is a little bit of a copout, but I can see why it's necessary dramatically (you could always use Primer as an example as to what would happen to time travelers that change TOO much in their own timestream and that's what the effect prevents.)

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Those were great episodes. Love The Brig!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Ah the Brig was coooool. RIP.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    The causality loop.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I could actually see as fact- go back and try to change something, but you already have tried and this is how it turns out anyway. Hence the time lock.....

  • Are you trying to say that the first Time War didn't happen, post-Big Bang II? That the Time Lords are around en masse, still faffing about and preparing to put the Doctor through yet another trial? I would think the comment after the Doctorganger did his Tennant voice would apply here - 'we're past that now'. <br> Certainly, the Doctor still thinks the Time Lords are all dead in the universe, given the comments in The Doctor's Wife. Also, based on comments from Eccleston and Tennant, we know that he'd know if there were any more in the universe (unless hiding behind perception filters or Archangel networks). <br> So, I still believe this counts as Time War II. <br> <br> Unless you're saying there's already been MORE than one Time War worthy of having the name capitalized?

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Sam, causality loops

    by DoctorTom

    Did you ever listen to the BF audio Colditz? It has fun with the causality loops. It also had Nazis. And David Tennant (but not as the Doctor). And Sylvester McCoy. And Toby Longworth (but not as Judge Dredd, though I would have liked a BF Who/Dredd crossover audio). <br> I'm sure it's only coincidence that we're probably going to be dealing with causality loops and Nazis in 8 days. Still, I'd be amused if Steve Lyons gets a shout out in the credits. Platt had a shout out for his BF origin of the Cybermen story from RTD although the stories weren't that similar, maybe there's a large mutation of story here. <br> Or, more likely, it's just a coincidence. Because if you have time travel, you have to have Nazis at some point. The first three things everybody thinks of to include in time travel adventures are Nazis, Romans and dinosaurs. We got Romans last year (sort of), from the trailer it looks like were going to get the Nazis and dinosaurs covered - proper dinosaurs at that, not just stop motion or sock puppet dinosaurs.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    slight DoD spoiler...

    by Circean6

    He used a strange bomb no one had seen before or since to start the war, it was like an atom bomb without the fallout, thats why we've come back in time to stop this terrorist from his plot!

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 3:41 p.m. CST

    circean6

    by DoctorTom

    'like an atom bomb without the fallout' - do you mean a neutron bomb? ;) <br> of course, being Doctor Who, it would have to be a Dalekenium bomb. Dalekenium, it's an armoring material AND and explosive!

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm saying in this new universe, as the Moff has also made clear, not everything is the same. What that means can be anyone's guess..

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 4:47 p.m. CST

    Wow those aliens look EXACTLY like the Uruk-hai from LotR!

    by Rebel Scumb

    Or more accurately I suppose the Urak-hai look exactly like those aliens!

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 4:48 p.m. CST

    I always liked...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    how the one guy from the future was the Candy Man from Willy Wonka :) lol

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 6:58 p.m. CST

    and so it came to pass

    by Seph_J

    on Christmas day, that the human race did cease to exist.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 6:59 p.m. CST

    docTOM and horn

    by Seph_J

    surely "the LAST Great Time War" implies there were previous time wars....?

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 7:12 p.m. CST

    The one time when I did really prefer the special edition

    by Rebel Scumb

    was recently when I watched 'earthshock' the ending where the ship crashes in the original version is just a static shot of the ship in space with a weak explosion flash. But the whole point (and it is story specific) is that the ship CRASHED onto earth, so the updated FX for that one shot, while extremely basic does make that scene (which is fairly pivotal) play a lot better but overall I agree that as long as the originals are on the discs, that is what matters

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 7:54 p.m. CST

    Special edition thumbs up

    by ShadowTiger

    I'd definitely like to see many more special editions. It's easy enough to find the originals if you want.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 9:58 p.m. CST

    Special Edition episodes?

    by Red43jes

    I'd actually buy some episodes if they did this. Look, I know a lot of people don't want Doctor Who classic tampered with, so why not sell the DVD with both versions? Then everyone is happy. You get them both. BBC, I'd be cool with it, as some episodes could REALLY use an update of special effects.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 10:39 p.m. CST

    SJW-I actually think Catherine Tate's kind of hot.

    by The Transformed Man

    There. I said it.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 10:40 p.m. CST

    Never seen Day of the Daleks.

    by The Transformed Man

    Looks awesome. I am interested to watch both versions. They've given a few stories that treatment.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 10:45 p.m. CST

    The spark that began the Time War.

    by The Transformed Man

    RTD said that was the Time Lords' sending the Doctor to thwart the Daleks' creation in "Genesis of the Daleks". Of course Moffat might disagree with Davies.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 10:49 p.m. CST

    I'm fine with special editions as long as the original version is included.

    by The Transformed Man

    They've been really good about that.

  • I love the idea of enhancing these episodes like was done with Star Trek.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 11:07 p.m. CST

    I'd always heard about the photo of Jo Grant posing nude with a Dalek

    by DoctorWho?

    WAY better than I imagined.

  • Right this way Miss Pond...

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Jo Grant nude

    by Red43jes

    Isn't there one where its full frontal with the Dalek? Coulda sworn there was...

  • So who we have so far is Billie Piper and Katy Manning....any other companions that bared it all?

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 11:25 p.m. CST

    I bet Jo Grant was the first... that swinging 60's era you know.

    by DoctorWho?

    I'll pass on Mel thank you very much. Come to think of it...I would feel a little protective of Sarah Jane too. Peri comes to mind, she still looks hot.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 11:34 p.m. CST

    Special Editions

    by Dreamfasting

    Personally I like effort to focus on moving forward, building on the past rather than revisiting it, but I have to say that there's something about the idea of tweaking old episodes a show about a time travelling medler that amuses me.

  • Aug. 19, 2011, 11:49 p.m. CST

    12 Monkeys ripped this off, not The Terminator...

    by lynxpro

    I don't care what Gilliam said. Le Jette (sic) is not the inspiration for "12 Monkeys", it is this story. I said that the moment I watched "12 Monkeys" on the big screen, except I felt Gilliam didn't get it right because his point was that the past couldn't be changed even though Cole did change some elements [the name "12 Monkeys for instance] but was caught in a "time loop"/"pre-destination paradox" just like the combatants were in this story. This is one of my favorite stories of Classic Who, right up there with "Genesis of the Daleks", "Earthshock", "The Deadly Assassin", "The Keeper of Traken"/"Logopolis", and of course, the best of all, "The Caves of Androzani".

  • And when I say Blinovitch, I mean the Blinovitch Limitation Effect...as seen also in "Time Cop" and that travesty by Mr. Donnie Darko known as "Southland Tales"...

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:04 a.m. CST

    sunspot_mike and "Primer"

    by lynxpro

    I've never been able to watch "Primer" fully without falling asleep through it. For the life of me, I don't know why this site and CHUD have such a full-on-robot-chubby for it...bores the hell outta me. I can respect it for costing like $2 to make the film, but I'd say Aronofsky's "Pi" blows it away completely in the category of no-budget genre/scifi. I tend to laugh at the theoretical physicists who are always coming up with reasons for various limitations on time travel - such as only being able to travel back to the point the machine was created - because it reminds me of the various scientists back in the day who claimed driving an automobile more than 20mph would cause the human body to fall apart...or the sound barrier skeptics. They're always proven wrong in the end.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:10 a.m. CST

    Peri, Romana I, Liz Shaw, Grace, Romana II...

    by lynxpro

    I'd retroactively vote for them all to pose with the Dalek from the times they originally were on the show...but if we're talking about from this day in 2011, only Nicola Bryant and Daphne Ashbrook could pose and still look great.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:13 a.m. CST

    count me in on the Special Editions...

    by lynxpro

    I'm a big fan of what CBS/Paramount did with TOS Special Editions [and I haven't even seen them on Blu yet], so if the BBC would like to throw some cash to "upgrade" the classic episodes, be my guest. I still think they should post ClassicWho on the BBCA website along with YouTube and Hulu. The advertising revenue would probably be sufficient enough to pay for the restorations/upgrades and it would reach a larger potential audience than what the DVDs actually reach... But that's just me and I greatly disagree with what BBC Worldwide Americas has done with our favorite show over the past two decades here in 'Merica...

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:21 a.m. CST

    tonight's Torchwood episode...

    by lynxpro

    I'm not seeing a thread on it so I thought I'd post something about it here. I thought the character of Angelo was actually fleshed out well - no pun intended - and was probably the best non-main cast member's character in the history of the Torchwood franchise, but my gawd, if you've seen "The Boondock Saints II" - which I'm assuming RTD has - it is painfully obvious who the Big Bad is for the mini-series. Effin' A! Does RTD have one original idea in his noggin? I mean, first aping - in my opinion - Joss Whedon and now stealing from Troy Duffy? FFS! What next? Steal Rocco's infamous cat shooting scene - from the first film - for Torchwood next season? That might be touching if the cat was one of Captain John's former lovers, I guess...

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:54 a.m. CST

    Nicola Bryant's Peri action figure

    by The Transformed Man

    A few months ago on Twitter, Nicola Bryant said she got one of the new Peri action figures and gave one to her four or five year old son. The kid immediately laid it down and had his Matt Smith figure humping her. You can't make this stuff up.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 2:25 a.m. CST

    Who Hugs For Everyone

    by GeptaOO1

    I'm re-watching all of last season, and the first half of the current season to tide me over till next Saturday.... I'm keeping my eyes peeled, and taking a few notes, and will post a few thoughts most of which will probably be silly. I've been trying to decide which Matt Smith as the Doctor episode is my favorite, and right now I'm leaning towards The Lodger... anyways, I'm off to watch tonights ep of Torchwood....

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 2:35 a.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by lynxpro

    Can you blame the kid? After all, his mom is hot! And of course The Doctor got some. Why else would the 5th Doctor sacrifice himself so heroically to save Peri? He certainly didn't do the same for Adric!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 3:31 a.m. CST

    Special Edition

    by HornOrSilk

    There are a few Special Editions which are worth it... one which deserved it (Silver Nemesis) for some reason didn't get it on DVD. One which didn't deserve it (Enlightenment) got it. Day of the Daleks in its special edition always sounded like a good idea for the reasons stated in this article. The story is a good, competent story, but let down by the end. So I look forward to this one.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 3:42 a.m. CST

    Torchwood Spoilers

    by GeptaOO1

    This Post contains information from yesterday's episode of Torchwood. Ok, So parasitic worm creatures that control the host bodies mind are the big bad of Torchwood miracle day... Am I getting this right, The Goa'uld, from Stargate...? At least Doctor Who and companion were mentioned, and we finally see something alien at least. I take it Angelo is a host, and that's why he's still alive, and after Jack.... Finally the story seems to be picking up, i wish i'd waited till the entire series had aired, so I could watch them all in one sitting instead of sitting through week after unbarable week of slow story

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 4:04 a.m. CST

    Mavalcar Torchwood

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Spoilers.... I did think it was real screwed up how Jack was being tortured and killed over and over, yes we have seen it before, but not as brutal. Yet, who were the three men that made the triangle shake?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 4:13 a.m. CST

    transformedman- NO!!! She can't be hot!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    And now she has shed alot of weight she looks like some kind of Gok-kWAN nightmare...!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 4:31 a.m. CST

    Torchwood-Spoilers

    by Beastlaz

    Hmmmm why no Torchwood Talkback? Torchback?? whatever. Nope I don't think it's the worm creature parasites, remember their lethal? It's more Likely to be the Vial of blood the old woman collected from Jack during the torture sequence. The three guys would seem to be Mafia bosses, their hands made that same triangle logo that we've seen on the cell phones etc. and I've read somewhere about the '3families' being involved in this somewhere. and other than government who else has large amounts of disposable cash, organised crime. I'm expecting Angelo to be a withered husk on a bed being kept alive by machines

  • After years of watching Dwarf with its cheesy cheapo effects and model work, here we were thrown into new FX territory. It looked a felt weird. It felt forced in some way and ultimately diminished my enjoyment of one of my favourite shows. (I still have those VHS tapes in a box set in my loft) It didn't fit in with the spirit of the (at least earlier) show for me, and I kinda just gravitated back to the original version. The inclusion of the special edition this time has however piqued my interest, and although it's difficult to tell from just the snippets, looks as if it might work.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 5:34 a.m. CST

    The word SPOLIER...

    by dj_bollocks

    for Torchwood suggests that people would be disappointed to find out that Torchwood was lame for a 6th week in a row... Still no word on a 2nd series yet ?

  • ...who I found (and I don't really like him) did the job admirably; the love struck imbecile crushed further as the Doc comes crashing into his life. As a whole, it is resonating more now due to the find in the non existant upstairs, and it will be interesting to see how it all fits once we see Corden again later this series.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:21 a.m. CST

    My views on naked companions

    by DVaderRIP

    First off, I agree with the docbacker who said they would feel a bit protective of Sarah Jane. She would have looked great, but she was such a sweet girl (in real life as well as in DW) a big part of me would be uncomfortable about it. With that said, I think Peri is always a no-brainer - and she still looks great now. Leela at the time would have been a good call, as would Romana I - but I'd definitely have liked to have seen Lalla Ward in nothing but her hat. As for the nu-who companions, Rose Tyler did nothing for me - I'm actually very glad to see the back of her - but I wouldn't mind seeing Freema in her birthday suit. Phew... time for a cold shower!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:26 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig re : The lodger

    by DVaderRIP

    I have to entirely agree about "The Lodger". I genuinely thought Cordren did a great job - and I don't generally like him either. The chemistry really worked for me.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:29 a.m. CST

    lynxpro

    by DVaderRIP

    I'd forgotten about Daphne Ashbrook - add her to the list!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:44 a.m. CST

    The Lodger

    by HornOrSilk

    I agree with what people are saying here; I was afraid it was going to be bad, but, as a whole, I thought it was good. I don't get the dislike, it is nothing like... Love and Monsters...

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:47 a.m. CST

    Sam - Red Dwarf Updates

    by HornOrSilk

    You are right, for that kind of show, they actually miss the spirit of the show. For some Doctor Who, I also think updates don't work. I don't think they worked too well with the Five Doctors, for example. However, I think Pertwee's era is one where a special edition will help many stories. Day of the Daleks is one, because, well, the ending just needed more than what we got. And of course, Invasion of the Dinosaurs... if they can pull it off... will help a great deal fix what is one of the best stories ruined by fx.

  • STARZ has said weeks ago they have no plans for a second season of Torchwood, for that to happen, it would take a MIRACLE! Sorry, I had to say it. We can only hope the BBC brings it back to the UK or, at the very least, Captain Harkness returns to Doctor Who.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 7:53 a.m. CST

    Torchwood- SPOILERS

    by notspock2

    I cctually thought last nights episode (U.S. Pace) was possibly the best yet, in terms of actually feeling like Torchwood the whole way through and being a compelling watch. However, a flashback this late in the day (7 episodes in), honestly feels a bit like cheating to me. It makes me think this might all be resolved by having "Jack put a cork in the island." I think the issue with the series is one of Dramatic structure- In Children of Earth you had from day one, an escalating danger that revealed both it's desires and motivation in greater depth, episode by episode. What's more, the government (the people hunting down Torchwood) and the threat, were largely in cahoots with each other, and we saw that relationship dramatised. The hand was clearly connected to the head- as it were. In Miracle Day there is an apparent disconnect between the major immediate threat to our characters (the actions of government agencies and Phi-Corp) and the actual source of the miracle.- this leads us as an audience to feel that the battles and drama we've seen aren't actually that important to the resolution of the dramatic premise at the centre of the show. This leads to a feeling of "so what?" even when the plot at the heart of a single episode gets resolved it doesn't count for too much toward the greater story. Worse- who the bad guy is looks like it's not going to be revealed until episode 8 and it looks like that's only going to have been set up in episode 7- In COE we knew an hour or two in.. one gives you compelling drama, the other gives you a feeling that you've been cheated. Even if it's a mess, I am still a fan, I like the characters

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 7:59 a.m. CST

    The Lodger

    by Rebel Scumb

    I liked the episode when it aired, but find I like it more and more each time I see it. I had never heard of Corden before (or since) but thought he worked perfectly in that role. The girl was also well cast as someone hot enough that I can believe he would pine over her that much, but she was also quirky/weird/real enough that I could imagine her still being in his league. She has kind of a younger Katey Sagal thing going on. But yeah the upstairs fake-tardis thing seemed almost like a throwaway explanation at the time to have an excuse for a silly episode, but now seems to be of the utmost importance.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8 a.m. CST

    Torchwood spoilers

    by Rebel Scumb

    I gave up after episode 5 (ending on the reveal that they were burning the 'dead' people), can someone just give me a brief synopsis of what has been happening since?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:01 a.m. CST

    love & monsters

    by Rebel Scumb

    I actually kind of liked that episode. Granted I haven't rewatched it, but I sort of like for their to be occasionally a really offbeat episode like that. Spices up the series as a whole.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    Captain Jack coming back to Who...

    by DVaderRIP

    God, please no. With the caveat that I am in no way homophobic, one of the things I just couldn't abide about RTDs era was the constant gay agenda - "look at me! I'm gay!". You'd have male supporting characters saying things like "Wow, I'd never say anything like that to my BOYFRIEND - WINK!". It was just constantly shoved down your throat. I don't want to see that era coming back.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:15 a.m. CST

    As for special editions...

    by DVaderRIP

    The Five Doctors would definitely benefit from (yet another) makeover. But they can't do anything about that scene with Sarah Jane falling down that "cliff".... :o

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:25 a.m. CST

    By the way....

    by DVaderRIP

    Can anyone explain what the hell that "open the doors underwater" thing was in Logopolis? They materialized in the Thames, and they were about to open the doors. The Tardis is infinite in size, right? So surely, it would have just drained out the river (and presumably killed the Doctor and Adric). Never understood that. Part of me wondered whether it was there to suggest that the Doctor was getting so old he was becoming senile - as with the universe (in the story).

  • if this is his first time thru, well, wow. I pretty much took it as a given that he'd seen it, what with characters called "Canton" and a weapon/girl called "River". Or is he lying to everyone again??? Where's that MOV fellow when you need him to ambiguous things up?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 10:07 a.m. CST

    dvaderrip .....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I know exactly what you mean regarding Captain Jack, but I would personally like to see him interract with the 11th Doctor! What an interesting dynamic that would be after seeing him with both Eccleson and Tennant- a new, darker. moodier Doc against the cartoonishness of Harkness! Ofcourse, it would need to be written in a different syle than RTD (a given I think with the Moff) but an episode where the Doc ultimately rejects harkness and severs all ties? Yup- I would watch that. I would also not count out seeing Harkness sometime in 2013 as he has been a vital part of the Nu Who universe, and as such needs to be celebrated.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 10:12 a.m. CST

    Horn- absolutely!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    It was the bargain basement effects and shonky sets that gave Dwarf its charm (as well as a blinding cast!!!) Should be interesting to see how Red Dwarf 2012 will look with all of the updated effects. It just has to be better than the last shit they served us up. That was a crime against humanity!!! Saying that, I recently read Infinity welcomes careful drivers by Grant Naylor. If you have a spare few hours give it a go!!!

  • ....ahhhhhhhhhhh Daydream over.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 10:32 a.m. CST

    lynxpro

    by The Transformed Man

    Bryant's kid is going to have some serious mommy issues. Who wouldn't?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST

    SJW

    by The Transformed Man

    I haven't seen Tate since the weight loss. But you're saying THIS isn't hot? http://tinyurl.com/3tp2fro Okay. More Catherine Tate for me then.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 10:48 a.m. CST

    axcel - Re Torchwood

    by dj_bollocks

    Don't apologise... I'm chuckling my little head off ! RTD back to the UK with your tail between your legs !

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 11:55 a.m. CST

    notspock2 RE: MOV

    by James Taylor

    Maybe he's watching Firefly? I mean maybe he's *with the Moff, watching Firefly.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:29 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk re: Time War

    by DoctorTom

    surely 'the LAST Great Time War' implies there were previous time wars....?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST

    damn this cutting off of posts! Ok, Horn, take 2

    by DoctorTom

    You might have the emphasis wrong. It doesn't have to be the LAST Great Time War. It could be the last GREAT Time War. Other time wars before it were piddly little things in comparison, not worth capitalizing. Like the Great War, which was renamed World War I after WW II started. <br> Or, it could be referring to the LAST great time war as compared to the NEXT great time war, which he hasn't participated in yet, but might have picked up some foreknowledge about (spoilers!)

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    My view on naked companions

    by DoctorTom

    We really don't need a picture of a naked Adric posing next to a Dalek. <br> Or a naked Mel.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Torchwood (no spoilers, Sam)

    by DoctorTom

    at least they managed to advance the plot and give out some information on who's doing this. And, it felt like a Torchwood episode finally. It's interesting that Jane Espenson was the one to write this one, it's a lot better than most of the previous episodes (even her previous one). <br> I still think some of this information should have been at least hinted at more strongly in earlier episodes, though. At this point in the show it feels more like the equivalent of the Scooby Doo gang ripping off the mask from the bad guy and going 'Who the heck is that?'

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:51 p.m. CST

    Just watched Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead again

    by DoctorTom

    Ro bo slo ko mo

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    Oh man, that butchered the post awfully - skip that one

    by DoctorTom

    it's something to do with the quotation marks - and I'm only using single quotation marks, not double ones. Weird. I'll try again.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    Just watched Silence - Forest (take 2)

    by DoctorTom

    Ro bo slo ko mo

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    and, screwed again - this is frustrating.

    by DoctorTom

    Okay, I'll take it in parts to see where the problems with posts being cut might be happening. <br> I watched them again and noticed a few things. First, it's interesting to see how much is actually followed up on. The comments of the Doctor making armies run and then swaggering back to the TARDIS could be loosely interpreted to be The Eleventh Hour (not so much a swagger back to the TARDIS as a dead run) or A Good Man Goes To War - he had Col. Runaway tell the army to do just that. It's nice seeing the earlier things picked up on. Now if we get the picnic in Asgard or some of the other things mentioned it will be even more fun. <br> I was also struck when seeing Miss Evangilista's bones that it reminded me of the bones holding the sonic screwdriver in the teaser at the end of A Good Man Goes To War. There's also a lot of mentioning of Silence in those episodes. Will we possibly see the Vashta Nerada back during this, maybe being used by Silents?

  • The wondering about Vashta Nerada and whether we might see the Silents using them raised the question of how powerful the Silents' abilities are. Most of the universe was running from either the Silents or the Silence. Do the Silents have telepathic circuits in their time space machines (or some telepathy themselves) to let any race understand them?

  • (Also trying to post this to let people know what the heck the Judoon talk was before) Hypothetical scene based on the supposition in the last part (imagine quotation marks around each line below - I'm eliminating them to see if the sucker will post now if I get rid of them) <br> <br> Ro bo slo ko mo <br> (Whispery Silent voice) Speak English, horned one <br> (Judoon looks down for his communicator) <br> Trooper Mo Ko reporting in, there's nothing to be seen here.

  • Just something that Harry's IT boys can go to tracking down. It only seems recent that sometimes the single quotations around sentences cuts the post sometimes. It was going to the first sentence where I had single quotes wrapping the sentence, cut the quotation marks out and got rid of the part of the post (i.e. most of it) that wasn't that first line in quotations. Well, at least the exercise in frustration sends the post count up (looking for a silver lining) so it's not a complete exercise in frustration. And hopefully even less so if the dang problem can get fixed!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Harry's IT boys

    by DVaderRIP

    I'm sorry to break this to you DoctorTom, but Harry doesn't have IT boys. If he did, this site would look like every other site developed in the 21st century. Instead, it looks like exactly what it is - a web site written a few enthuastic amateurs in in 1996.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    my point about last night's Torchwood...

    by lynxpro

    I guess it can be summed up that I wouldn't be surprised if older Angelo is portrayed by Peter Fonda... I about gave up on this Torchwood miniseries after the oven reveal. Equating America's private health care system with the Holocaust and Nazi Germany is just ridiculous but consistent from a writer whose mainly featured businessmen - both human and alien alike - as the ultimate villains of the [nu] Whoniverse.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    by the way, I've always liked the Ogrons...

    by lynxpro

    I thought the CroMags from "Sliders" owed a bit to the ol' Ogrons... With decent makeup, NewWho could salvage them just as they've done with the Silurians and the Sontarans.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 4:07 p.m. CST

    I really hope Jack Harkness comes back to Dr Who

    by Rebel Scumb

    It would be great to see him interact with River. And I always prefered the way he was portrayed on Who compared to Torchwood where he's really ruthless and lethal. The character works best (for me) when he's more of a dashing rogue, playful and flirty, but also heroic the way he was on Who, especially the series 3 finale trilogy.

  • Obligatory disclaimer for you ultra-sensitive PC types: I DO NOT HATE GAY PEOPLE.<p> Having gotten that out of the way, I like Jack. As rebelscumb says, the dashing rogue, charming, lethal etc. Good stuff. But we've been there. I hasten to add that I don't care for ANY overt sexuality in my Doctor Who. I can get that in a thousand different places. Nor do I want too much of even romantic involvement between key characters...the Doc and Rose was pushing it for me. <p> Hope no one takes offense and runs with the whole ''gay agenda'' flame war shit...that's been played. The Matt Smith/Moffatt era is on a great trajectory right now and I see this as the "if it aint broke" type of scenario. Later!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:40 p.m. CST

    I gave Karen the fish finger

    by catlettuce4

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    by catlettuce4

    ' ' single quotation marks

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 6:59 p.m. CST

    lynxpro

    by DoctorWho?

    And how about the Rutans, Zygons and Draconians? They should bring some of them back too.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 7:48 p.m. CST

    lynxpro - I'm not sure about that Torchwood interpretation

    by DoctorTom

    It could just as easily be argued that it's equating the government-forced health care system as being the equivalent of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany. In Torchwood everyone's forced to go through this system (like they want to do with 'Obamacare') and there were all the arguments about rationing and 'death panels' if the new system went through. <br> That said, it seems like businessmen are always going to be villains with him. At least with Harriet Jones he took a more ambivalent approach with politician. I'm half surprised we didn't get Sil or the Usurians back in one of the series under his tenure.

  • If Barrowman hadn't been tied up in America filming Torchwood, Moffat would have had him show up in A Good Man Goes To War.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 7:53 p.m. CST

    lynxpro - returning species

    by DoctorTom

    I'd also like to see the Zygons, Rutans and Draconians. Unfortunately with what's going on this season with the Flesh avatars and gangers of people, Moffat might try to steer clear of the Zygons and Rutans for a season since their shapeshifting could go into similar territory. That doesn't mean he won't, or that they won't ever show up. <br> Draconians would be wonderful to have show up again. In fact, a Federation story (not necessarily set on Peladon) that showed the Draconians as well as Ice Warriors, Alpha Centauri and Arcturans would be fun.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:08 p.m. CST

    No, I didn't know that doctortom

    by DoctorWho?

    You seem to be on top of a lot of the happenings surrounding the show, which is great. Me, I'm still catching up on some of the Matt Smith episodes. You have a lot of informative posts.<p> It wouldn't have killed me to have him back, but I would have rolled my eyes and braced for the worst. I would hope the Moff would fashion a different tone...who knows.<p> If there's one thing I hate its being yanked out of my total immersion in a film or tv episode in this type of genre because someone wants to interject a point (any point) irrelevant to the story. <p> I love the electric guitar, but I don't want to hear one dropped into the middle of a string quartet...if you know what I mean. Cheers!

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 8:44 p.m. CST

    Jack could have worked well in the Doctor's army.

    by The Transformed Man

    There was a lactating Sontaran. Jack dashing around wouldn't have ruined things.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 9:21 p.m. CST

    dvaderrip

    by Renee Knowles

    Question for you: If you were writing a Doctor Who or Torchwood script, and you had a gay or bisexual character in it, how would you have them refer to his boyfriend/her girlfriend in such a way that it would be "normal", as opposed to "shoving it down people's throats"? For example, Rose refers to Mickey as her boyfriend on a few occasions, and Donna refers to her husband-to-be and several ex's. If those were same-sex relationships, how would you as a scriptwriter treat them so as to avoid making heterosexual fans uncomfortable while still addressing the fact that those relationships are/were there?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Who DVDs with redone FX:

    by spikeandjezebel

    There are quite a few Classic Who DVDs that have alternate FX as an option. Here is a list of (I think) all of them: The Dalek Invasion of Earth Day of the Daleks (upcoming) The Time Warrior The Ark in Space The Invisible Enemy The Invasion of Time Destiny of the Daleks Kinda (fantastic CG snake!!) Earthshock Arc of Infinity The Black Guardian Trilogy (Mawdryn Undead, Terminus, and Enlightenment) The Five Doctors Planet of Fire Revelation of the Daleks Remembrance of the Daleks (I think - don't have that one) Battlefield The Curse of Fenric All of them include the original FX as the default option.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST

    Yuck okay clarification time...

    by Renee Knowles

    I just read my above comment and it sounds so much more accusatory than I intended it to be. What I meant was, what was it about how Jack was written that turned it from a normal, every-day mention of a relationship that happens to be same-sex into a "wink"/"shoving it down our throats" scenario? How could it have been written differently, more like the Rose/Mickey and Donna relationships, to avoid giving that impression?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 9:51 p.m. CST

    protocol417

    by DoctorWho?

    I hear you protocol417. If I may offer an answer...I don't think anyone thinks those scenarios you mentioned would at all be an issue in a gay context. My 8 yr old understands about different kinds of relationships. It's the overt promiscuous/ horn dog angle that is not needed. Just like I would be irked at hearing Rose or some female character referencing some sexual thing. I do believe I saw a clip of an episode where Amy does just that when seeing a clone or double of herself (I haven't caught up to that episode yet). Just not necessary.<p> I guess a good hard and fast rule would be that if it makes my eight yr old turn to me and ask about something sex related, then leave it out. Relationships are one thing...what one does under the covers is piling it on a bit. It's still a family show right?

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 11:21 p.m. CST

    doctorwho? protocol417 RE: Amy's clone etc.

    by James Taylor

    She says something potentially lewd in Time and Space (the two shorts), but it's very much a double entendre - if you don't know what she *means you could take it that she's just talking about an evening playing Tekken against herself ;) It's certainly no worse (to my mind) than Amy and Rory complaining they can't share a bed. Yes, it's still a family show, and the inclusion of more sexual dynamics is a recent addition, but I don't believe any of it is any worse than the mild violence that's often shown. It never ceases to amaze me that folks are just fine with Daleks disintegrating people left right and center or Cybermen gutting them with large blades to make more Cybermen but heaven forbid anyone mention that the human race is occasionally a bit randy. All of this stuff has a very different take to it for an adult as compared to a child. 90% of this stuff (violence or sex) is going to sail right over their heads. The other 10%? Is it easier to explain why Jack is "being friendly" with such and such, or to explain why that Cyberman is crying, or why being sent a hundred years into the past is such a big deal, or just why that nice nurse is so upset that the Doctor is acting like himself again, or just why the Doctor is banging on the door of the room with a Dalek in it screaming to be let out? It's a family show, nobody said family shows have to be easy or nice. We just watched Chitty Chitty Bang Bang with mine, and plenty of explanation was required throughout - that film is way darker than I remember it being.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 11:40 p.m. CST

    hqn

    by The Transformed Man

    Fair point. I didn't see CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG until a few years ago, so I missed it as a kid. I was amazed by how dark that movie is. Very good movie though.

  • Aug. 20, 2011, 11:41 p.m. CST

    Good points hqn

    by DoctorWho?

    But human sexuality is is unique to all other subjects. Comparing the the question of why the Doctor is banging on the door to be let out of the Dalek room to a question about human sexuality is a leap. As a dad, I'll be fielding those questions soon enough. I just want my kid to be a kid a while longer.<p> But to your larger point: "It never ceases to amaze me that folks are just fine with Daleks disintegrating people left right and center or Cybermen gutting them with large blades to make more Cybermen but heaven forbid anyone mention that the human race is occasionally a bit randy."<p> My philosophy is that violence IS okay for kids to see IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT. Example: There's no way in hell I'm going to let my 8 yr watch Saw of Friday the 13th. But when there is violence in the context of right vs wrong i.e the good guys vs. the bad guys, I'm fine with it. Kids need to see there are bad people/monsters in the real world and that yes, they can and need to be fought. It's reassuring to a kid to see evil vanquished. To fight, protect and defend innocent people is indeed sometimes necessary. I know this is contrary to many peoples views nowadays.<p> But as I said, great points! Cheers!

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 12:11 a.m. CST

    sexuality in relation to violence

    by James Taylor

    I can see why you'd want to hold off on answering those awkward questions, and I do see your point about violence being used in context (I have a great oreference for that myself; I've never watched Saw as I got a vibe from the previews that the film was just nasty for the sake of being nasty - plenty of that in the world already). But I feel that generally Who treats sexuality in much the same way. Jack (in Who of course, not Torchwood) will make a slightly lewd joke with a wink and a smile - there's nothing particularly dirty about it. This has a long tradition, if you've ever seen The Two Ronnies or a Carry On film you'll know what I mean - and no one would bat an eyelid at letting children your sons age watch those (at least in my experience). Other than that the occasional one line of rudeness (which again, most kids won't pick up on) such as the Dream Lord's comments or Rory and Amy's about sharing a bed, are done in the context of those relationships, and in the main help to round out and solidify those relationships and character interactions. Where they don't they're back in Carry On territory. The one exception to those two rules (IMO) was the scene at the end of the Angel two parter. That didn't strike me personally as particularly untoward, but it was definitely riding a very fine line. Don't forget though, Moffat was a school teacher before becoming involved in TV, and he also wrote children's television for five years when he started. He's probably very aware of where the line is (and equally probably delights on riding right along it). Incidentally, Jack's only appearance as scripted by Moffat was in his first two parter; despite him creating the character - and that was probably the mildest Jack's ever been depicted. If he was to bring him back I suspect that would be the Jack we'd get to see.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 2:07 a.m. CST

    A thought just occured to me...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Forgive me if this has been discussed, but, the 1103 year old Doctor, where was his TARDIS? Wouldnt River have wanted to find it, since she can fly it? Something about that seems odd.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 5:16 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, I read the Red Dwarf novels back in the day -- and I seemed to remember they were good and had some interesting takes in them -- but all in all, I think one of the problems with later shows is it wasn't filmed live. So, I love the show, especially its classic year. I wish someone had filmed the opening of WhoosierCon II with the Doctor and Ace meeting Lister... I remember it as being funny but again, it's so long ago.. but I think it beat the jokes of Season 7..

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 5:18 a.m. CST

    Did the Sontaran have Jack's original part?

    by HornOrSilk

    Imagine if Jack had been the one lactating ;)

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 5:47 a.m. CST

    protocol417

    by DVaderRIP

    Great question. If I were scripting an episode and I had a gay character in it (which would be perfectly fine), I would have them act in the same way as they would in real life - what bothers me is the way that gay characters are used because they're gay. They're not real 3D characters, they're just totally defined by their 'gayness'. During everyday life, you'll bump into gay people all the time - at the office, in school, everywhere. But they'll never be outrageously camp caricatures, always eyeing up mens arses and making totally inappropriate comments. People just don't act like that, and I would attempt to write people as people, with depth, rather than cardboard cutouts - just my 2c!

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 6:35 a.m. CST

    @darthdevious - Good Question

    by veteran_of_mu

    There's River saying that empires would rip the planet apart for just one cell. And she has to know that somewhere not too far away there's the TARDIS. What would empires do for that? There wasn't even a discussion about where the TARDIS might be. River could have said, "oh, he would have set it to self destruct" or some such guff. For that matter no one even went back to collect the suspicious red caddy. Fairly amazing that none of us have picked up on this till now either. Good one, Darth!

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 7:03 a.m. CST

    In A Good Man Goes to War, when Rory

    by GeptaOO1

    goes to recruit River, and she's just come back from the celebrating her birthday with the doctor. Rory says something along the lines "I've come from the doctor too" And then River says "Yes but from an entirely different point in time" Rory replies "Unless there's 2 of them" River says "That's an entirely different birthday" There ARE 2 doctors!

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 7:23 a.m. CST

    I'm more with hqn on this

    by Renee Knowles

    I've never found Jack's actions to be that over-the-top or in-your-face. In fact it's often been comical (much like the running joke of Amy dressing up as a policewoman and Rory as a centurion). 50th century guy... ladies, your ratings just went up (paraphrasing).... Jack's always been kind of a horn dog and that's part of his character (even under Moffat), not indicative of gay characters as a whole. (I'm obviously focusing more on his role in Doctor Who, as Torchwood was much more adult and there was a lot more sexuality in that. Not really surprising when the lovers in question work in a secret underground lab that no one but the pizza guy knows about.) Doctorwho?, I was a bit intrigued by your comment about allowing your son to be a kid for longer. I would think that teaching a child that there is bad and good in the world, and that bad must be fought, would be far more of a detriment to one's childhood than sex of any type. That is a scary concept. Not just that the world isn't always good, but that you must actively fight so that bad doesn't just take over? That's a lot to hang on an 8-year-old's shoulders. But sex is just sex. From the perspective of a child, it's just another gross thing that adults do, like kissing. Not saying one way over the other is better (obviously it's important to teach children about stranger danger, as an example), just that I found your reasoning interesting.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 9:09 a.m. CST

    mavalcar Re: Good Man Goes to War

    by The Transformed Man

    I interpreted River's whole other birthday comment as a reference to a multi-Doctor sex romp. Which Eleven would probably totally do. Wonder which incarnation he met up with?

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    doctorwho?- willing to have more harkness, as I like the character....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .....but I would like to see more of a character change with him. I really dug the character when we first met him and he was slighly manipulating Rose through charm and romance (not to mention the empty child/doctor dances are my two favourite eccleson episodes), and his intial feeling out with the Doctor. I could even enjoy his performances in Bad Wolf and Parting of the Ways- turning from cad into rebel into hero into martyr into immortal...... and THAT'S the point the character changed, certainly in Who. What do you do with the man who cannot die? Tense moments in Utopia were only saved by Tennant questioning Jacks right to live forever..... and as the series went on the Doctors words of "Your...... wrong, Jack..." resonanted loudly as RTD made him a cliche within a cliche. That said, the character remained likeable if somewhat cheesy (and the back and forth of "Captain Jack Harkness...." "Stop it!!!" still warms the cockles of my heart!) but I fear there is nowhere else to go with his current incarnation (certainly on Who- the dynamic of being mortal in torchwood has livened things up), and Jack needs a reboot. C ombine reboot with the new Doc, and yes, count me in with those first bums on seats to watch a new dynamic unfold. If not, it would be just more of the same in something that unfortunately has passed its sell-by date. Take care!! SJW.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    mavalcar/thetransformedman

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...Yeah, I took it along those lines of she visited several Doctors on the same day through a vortex manipulator. (naughty girl!) Couldn't imagine more than 1 Doc in a three or four way pile up..... uuugghh!!!

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    1103 year old Doctor's TARDIS

    by DoctorTom

    Maybe River didn't say anything about it because she knew already what had happened to it. Given how the Doctor was talking, she'd think that the Doctor had already made sure that the TARDIS was taken care of (after all, he had everything set up already for his Viking funeral, he wouldn't leave a big thing like the TARDIS about if it could be an issue). <br> Of course, it does raise the question of what happened to the 1103 year old Doctor's TARDIS. There are some other options to consider: the Doctor didn't get there with a TARDIS (he used a vortex manipulator that he destroyed - I doubt this, though), he caught a ride on the 908 year old Doctor's TARDIS (suggesting that the younger Doctor knows what's going on - and this answer applies whether it's the Doctorganger or an actual older Doctor). <br> Given the bit in the trailer with the Doctor by the TARDIS saying 'one last trip, old girl' we're going to find out what happened to the TARDIS, and also whether the 1103 year old Doctor was lying about his age.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Captain Jack

    by DoctorTom

    I'd agree with hqn and protocol417 on this. Captain Jack in Doctor Who has been more of a horn dog. In Who he doesn't have the explict sex stuff going on that they've shown (repeatedly, now) in Torchwood, and push the original 'dance with anything' attitude. Even RTD kept it more restrained in Doctor Who, keeping in mind the audience. Looking at the Master trilogy where Jack comes back, there wasn't any problem with his flirting and Tennant telling him to stop it every time he said 'hello'. His horndog attitude was played for laughs in Season 4 with him telling Sarah Jane she's looking good, and Donna wanting Jack to notice her. The most suggestive things got was with the Doctor setting up Jack and Alonzo.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Sam, you naughty boy

    by DoctorTom

    even suggesting a 3 or four way pileup. <br> Now, I'm going to expect to see a story titled The Three Doctors...and One River.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 11:50 a.m. CST

    Various

    by ByTor

    I'm not going to get into the sexuality/raising kids debate. As to the special editions...some are good. Some, not so much. For those thinking about the TOS restorations...these are not in that league at all. The fx sometimes look good, but sometimes just look cheap. Watch Destiny of the Daleks (if you must) some time; the CGI effects look just awful. On the other hand, some like Enlightenment are terrific. Day of the Daleks was always one I liked, and Merrick it's a good one to start Pertwee with. It's quintessential Pertwee.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    doctortom - me? naughty????? Oh sir....... :))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    The TARDIS having a larger part to play yet.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...isn't out of the realms of possibility. The Doc has already used it once to escape an unescapable prison, we know she can turn invisible and stay silent, so why not have her nearby when he returns to America to die? For all we know, she could be parked in the lake and the astronaut could have appeared from it- we didn't see the astronaut actually surface or submerge, did we? How impossible is that??? And we HAVE been wondering where his Tardis has been for quite a few weeks now. SJW.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Cheers, SJ'sW

    by spikeandjezebel

    The new FX are on the extended "movie" cut of Fenric, which I feel is quite an improvement over the episodic version. (The same goes for Battlefield.)

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Torchwood series 1 "End of Days"

    by sam jacksons wig

    "The cracks in time trace back to here...." Why did Harkness say that, I mean that EXACT phrase?? It couldn't have anything to do with S5, could it? (long shot, and I personally don't think so, but it's a coincidence.)

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 4:04 p.m. CST

    ARGH! Still here

    by Mister Vertue

    But not able to read through everything (on this Docback and the other new one), which means I'm probably missing lots of lovely theories and comments, but catching up at this point is impossible. Less than a week to go though! How exciting! Did any of you make it to the BFI screening? Darvill decided to show up in the end, although it looked like he wasn't going to make it. It wouldn't be the same without him. Did someone mention the Firefly thing? Like I said, that might crop up on one of the commentaries (at least I think that's what I originally told you, I honestly can't remember right now). I want to ask about the reaction to the 'prequel', but I know that was probably addressed over on the other Docback. Maybe I should just forget about sleeping tonight and catch up? Ha ha! Not going to happen folks. Sorry! By the way, the reindeer perished in an awful way at the hands of an mysterious assailant with a BIG raygun. Before I dash off again, I did read a list of someone's ideal list of writers for 2013. Is it bad for me to tell you that someone on that list *IS* writing an episode for a future series? What? That *was* bad? Oh well, I've said it now. Off to have a drink with my friend Hugo and laugh about Hitler. He's a nice bloke. Hugo I mean. Not Hitler. Obviously.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 5:06 p.m. CST

    Hi MOV, nice to see you.

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Maybe you can enlighten us, the 1103 yr old Doctor's TARDIS, we are assuming it was not mentioned in The Impossible Astronaut for a reason. A simple yay or nay will do, since we dont want spoilers LOL.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 5:09 p.m. CST

    MOV!!!! Oh you rotter you!!! :))

    by sam jacksons wig

    Now all the Docbacks will be ablaze; combing through all of the lists with writers names and just WISHING it was our favourite! However, it's late and I shall let others begin the LENGTHY debate that nugget will bring!! I hope this post finds you well and in very good spirits! Reaction to the prequel seems to have centered around the noises the Tardis is making (in flight mode) and he fact that it seems to stop at the end of the piece, signifying (ofcourse) it has landed somewhere. Or that it is stuck in some sort of holding pattern....(?) Also, the look on the Docs face (certainly from my point of view) as one of despair as Amy hits him with the "any news" line. My own humble opinion is that he knows something but he can't tell Amy & Rory what it is, or doesn't want to. Others have theorised he doesn't know where he baby is, but I think differently; he does. Can't wait for the new episode(s), the regenerating little girl, the crop circles, the tesselecta, a war criminal getting punched, the numbskulls and time moving on rapidly!!!! Stay safe, and enjoy your drink with Hitler- according to the Red Dwarf boys, he was quite the epicurist!!!

  • Speak to you all tomorrow!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 21, 2011, 8:58 p.m. CST

    @MOV - About the prequel

    by veteran_of_mu

    Sam left out my pet theory. Probably rightly. But anyway ... I'm still on the red and blue ties thing. The prequel Doc has a blue tie. The AGMGTW Doc has a red tie. I theorised that the prequel Doc has been unable to interact with any main character for quite some time - that the Doc that lies and blows up Cybermen and wears a red tie is the GangerDoc ... controlled by the DreamLord. In other words the GangerDoc, not being the Doc, can go futz with any part of time he likes. Not just the "unlocked" parts. The real Doc, blue-tie prequel Doc, keeps trying to break into the locked parts of his own timeline to fix 'em. But he can't, hence the noises in the prequel indicating the TARDIS can't land. So I go on to theorise that the GangerDoc has provided only one place the real Doc can re-enter time - that being the point of his own death. Finally I theorise that the real Doc's solution to all of this is/was Big Bang 2. Clear? Because I'm not!

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 12:21 a.m. CST

    MOV - good to see you again!

    by DoctorTom

    Delightful post, absolutely bonkers in spots. Much like Matt Smith. Sorry to hear about the reindeer. Or good to hear about it, I suppose we'll know what emotion to feel when we see it on the screen. <br> And thank you for teasing us that one of the writers on the list is going to show up, now we get a year or two to guess which one.

  • I saw the mention that The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang won the Hugo in Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form (I'm glad they separated the movies from the TV and webisodes - Inception got the Dramatic - Long Form Hugo). Vincent and the Doctor came in 2nd place for that prize. <br> Chicks Dig Time Lords won a Hugo for Best Related Work. <br> Congratulations to all the people involved with producing these! It's nice to see Doctor Who getting recognized for its quality.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 12:29 a.m. CST

    Oh, and apparently

    by DoctorTom

    A Christmas Carol had 3rd place in the Dramatic Short form category. I think this is the first time that there's been a trifecta like that since the category was established.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:36 a.m. CST

    Morning Docbackers...... back to work today!!! UUUGGGHHH!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    18 day break and now back to the mayhem! Check in with you all later!

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 4:49 a.m. CST

    caractacus potts

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I think the red tie / blue tie thing is something I will examine in more detail when I watch the eps again, but I strongly suspect that every time we see the Doctor wearing a red tie, he also has a herring in his pocket... What's also interesting to me at the moment is the continued speculation on the meaning of the name 'Canton Everett Delaware III'; it's pretty well established, I think, that the name Canton is a nod to Joss Wheedon, but I've seen relatively little on the other two parts of the name. Delaware, I would suggest, is a nod to the Radiophonic workshop, who were based in Delaware Road in Maida Vale, and had a synth made especially for them, also called 'The Delaware', that provided all sorts of lovely, squelchy sounds in the early 70's serials. Plus the electronic music vibe might, or might not, also be reflected by the state in which the 'last supper' was taken by the Doctor's disciples, or 'saints', and that much of Day of the Moon is set in a warehouse (or stock hausen, if you like.) More interestly, and more pertinently probably, is that the remainder of Canton's name, Everett III, in my mind appears to be a reference to Hugh Everett III, the physicist who first proposed the many worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Of course, this could just be a massive fluke, as could the fact that Henry Fielding's 1751 novel 'Amelia', about the early days of the marriage between the eponymous heroine and a chap named William(s), contains, amongst others, the rather marvelous following passages: "This speech, the doctor's voice, his look, and his behaviour, all which are sufficiently calculated to inspire awe, and even terror, when he pleases..." Plus "The doctor principally applied himself to ridiculing the dangers of the siege, in which he succeeded so well, that he sometimes forced a smile even into the face of Amelia. But what most comforted her were the arguments he used to convince her of the probability of my speedy if not immediate return. He said the general opinion was that the place would be taken before our arrival there; in which case we should have nothing more to do than to make the best of our way home again. Amelia was so lulled by these arts that she passed the day much better than I expected. Though the doctor could not make pride strong enough to conquer love, yet he exalted the former to make some stand against the latter; insomuch that my poor Amelia, I believe, more than once flattered herself, to speak the language of the, world, that her reason had gained an entire victory over her passion; till love brought up a reinforcement, if I may use that term, of tender ideas, and bore down all before him. In the evening the doctor and I passed another half-hour together, when he proposed to me to endeavour to leave Amelia asleep in the morning, and promised me to be at hand when she awaked, and to support her with all the assistance in his power. He added that nothing was more foolish than for friends to take leave of each other. 'It is true, indeed,' says he, 'in the common acquaintance and friendship of the world, this is a very harmless ceremony; but between two persons who really love each other the church of Rome never invented a penance half so severe as this which we absurdly impose on ourselves'" And also this: "Indeed, my dear sir," cries Amelia, "you are the wisest as well as best man in the world—" "Not a word of my wisdom," cries the doctor. "I have not a grain—I am not the least versed in the Chrematistic art, as an old friend of mine calls it. I know not how to get a shilling, nor how to keep it in my pocket if I had it." "But you understand human nature to the bottom," answered Amelia; "and your mind is the treasury of all ancient and modern learning." "You are a little flatterer," cries the doctor; "but I dislike you not for it. And, to shew you I don't, I will return your flattery, and tell you you have acted with great prudence in concealing this affair from your husband; but you have drawn me into a scrape; for I have promised to dine with this fellow again to-morrow, and you have made it impossible for me to keep my word." "Nay, but, dear sir," cries Amelia, "for Heaven's sake take care! If you shew any kind of disrespect to the colonel, my husband may be led into some suspicion—especially after our conference." And finally, just because it's awesome: "It is not death, but dying, which is terrible." Plus the novel has as its opening a prison-set tale wherein a woman indicted for murder confesses all to a good man who went to war, and also involves the affairs of a con-artist named 'Robinson'. Should we assume at this juncture that the Moff, with his MA in English, is wholly unfamilair with this later work of the chap who wrote 'Tom Jones', and write these intriguing correspondences down as a fluke? On balance, I think we probably should...

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 5:04 a.m. CST

    Oh, and I've been watching Day of the Daleks, too

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    And it totally rocks - the pacing is brilliant, the Doctor is even more Jason King than Jason King, Aubrey Woods is in terrific Julian Glover-style form and Jo is especially dreamy; a cracker of a story, and one of the better uses of the Daleks imho.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 5:18 a.m. CST

    ithrat_cordwallis

    by notspock2

    Great post on Henry Fielding. Gold star!

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 6:08 a.m. CST

    And a BIG SHOUT OUT on the Hugo

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Hoorah! Hoorah! Quite right, too, and this despite tPO/tBB not even being the best episode of the last series! Interesting to note that the long form award has gone to the one artist who I perceive challenges the Moff as the most capable of appealing to the geeky, the philosophically/literary minded and the mainstream all at the same time. It's been a good year :)

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 6:52 a.m. CST

    @ithrat_cordwallis Blue and Red in The Rebel Flesh!

    by veteran_of_mu

    Your classical education is better than mine. On red and blue ties I thought to review that scene in the Rebel Flesh where everyone passes out. The blue-tie Doctor walks into the monastery saying, "I think we're here. This is it." Rory responds, "Doctor, what are you talking about, we've never been here before". The Doc makes it quite clear he's there on purpose. He demands to see the flesh tank. His first words on seeing it, before sonicing it or anything else, are, "And there you are." Clearly this Doc is already aware of the GangerDoc. In response to "And everything's identical, eyes, voice -" he says, "- mind, soul ...". After scanning the Flesh he touches it with his hand. He appears to be in some kind of rapport and finishes with, "Yeah, I understand." After giving some speeches about a second solar storm he pulls his snow-ball out of his pocket and says, worriedly, "He's coming". Could be "It's coming" but I'm pretty certain it's "He's coming". Shortly after there's the "Ha ha, only serious" line, "I've got to get to that cockerel before all hell breaks loose ... I never thought I'd get to say that again." The last line the blue tie doctor says in this scene is "Amy, breathe." The TARDIS does its sink into the acid here. A Doctor dashes out into a sepia-toned outdoor shot but not so sepia that you can't see this is now the *RED* tie Doctor. Red Doc futzes with the circuit breakers and is knocked out. When he wakes up he's still in a Red tie. Scene switches to the Doctor encountering Cleaves. This is the Blue tie Doc again. He asks her how long they've been out. "I hazard we've been out a teensy bit longer ... an hour. I've seen whole worlds turn inside out in an hour. A lot can go wrong in an hour". He knows it was an hour because he's not the Doc that was knocked out. Blue tie Doc has had an hour to himself while Red tie Doc was knocked out. Remember that. It's important. After the blue tie Doctor tests Flesh Cleaves pain response he tells her, "Trust me. I'm the Doctor". But he says it as if it's news to him. Then, "Oh good, you remember. This is only Flesh. The early stages of the technology. So much to learn." Yes, that's non-sequitur. But it really is what he says to her. Or to someone. She responds, "We are living." Not "I am living." It seems quite clear that the Flesh, at least in their half-formed state, are all a single creature - so the blue-tie Doc is talking to himself in there too. A very serious blue tie Doc spends some time checking Amy out. Clearly he knows she's a ganger. He runs up stairs out of sight. Then we see a very animated Doc running around with Amy. He complains about the dangerous acid leaks and says he's going back for the TARDIS. He wants Amy to wait for him in the dining hall. Off he goes looking very duplicitous (pun sem-intentional) and then - suddenly there's our serious blue-tie Doc standing there. Very serious indeed. He asks for the exit. Being told he'd never get his vehicle in here he says, "I'm a great parker". Implying his TARDIS has been parked for a long time? Rory confronts GangerJen. She says, "I remember everything she's ever felt and more". An apparently dodgy Doc (tie looks blue ...) runs into the Flesh room and discharges the Sonic into the flesh vat. Then runs out again. The Flesh forms a pair of lips and says, "Trust Me". An apparently serious Doc runs outside to see the TARDIS roof-deep in acid. Someone, possibly not the Doc says, "What are you doing down there?". Then his shoes melt. Rest of the episode seems to play straight ...

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 8:57 a.m. CST

    Red & Blue & RetCon (Oh, almost certainly, Spoilers)

    by veteran_of_mu

    That's a beautiful word. Shenanigans.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 9:02 a.m. CST

    Darn bug.

    by veteran_of_mu

    That's a beautiful word. Shenanigans.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 9:07 a.m. CST

    Damn darn bug. Leaving out all punctuation at this point.

    by veteran_of_mu

    The initial GangerDoc runs through a bunch of the Doc's incarnations before screaming, Why, Why, Why? Our Doc says, Why What? Then the initial GangerDoc remembers the original Cybermen: Cybermats. Created by the Cybermen. They kill by feeding off brain waves. And also jelly babies, of course. GangerJen talks about remembering her earlier incarnations. The eyes are always the last to melt. And in those eyes there's always a question. Why? Why should we suffer for the sake of human beings? - is this GangerDoc's Why-Why-Why? Later the 2 Docs seem to be having a great time together putting the power back on and finishing each others' sentences. Just after they get the job done seems a THIRD Doc runs in from a different direction. This one looks troubled, not triumphant. When Kovarian appears he complains, It's in my head! Funny how you take lines like that in stride when you're not watching critically ... That Doc runs outside. Amy tells him about seeing his death. Recall that later on we're told this is actually The Doc, not the GangerDoc. Nevertheless this Doc repeats, Why? then grabs Amy and throws her against a wall. Why? That's all the eyes say. I can feel them as they work each day knowing the time was coming for them to be thrown away again. Not again, please. And then they are destroyed and they feel death and all they can say is, Why? It's pretty plain this guy is GangerDoc. And it's pretty plain the people he's talking about are not the acid-mine workers, but his own incarnations. Which means the technology he talked about remembering in tRF, Only the Flesh, is the technology of his own body. What we are watching is a really gigantic RetCon. Moffatt is making humanity the precursors of the Time Lords. Then Amy runs back into tell the other Doc to keep that Doc away from her. But just as she runs in the other Doc is saying, Why? Angry Doc runs in. Did you sense it? Briefly, not as strong as you. These two are clearly connected telepathically. Angry Doc is asking about whatever it was that was in my head. Angry Doc is sent with Buzzer in search of Rory. He gets thrown a sonic by Other Doc. He finds the real Jen just as she dies. Buzzer knocks him out. When he comes to the Gangers recognise him as a ganger. He says to call him John Smith. There's an odd scene where the Doc, Amy and humans are running down a corridor. The Doc turns back as if he see someone behind him, then runs. Rory and GangerJen trap the humans and Other Doc in the acid chamber. Other Doc pulls out HIS Sonic and declares the chamber is about to fill with acid. That's right, no mistake, there are officially TWO Sonics in play at this point. Also there's at least two GangerCleaveses - one with Rory and GangerJen, one with the GangerDoc. It's anyone's guess which Doc is which at the end. It seems pretty unlikely that they swapped shoes to learn about the Flesh through Amy's eyes. In any case one Doc says, Well, my death arrives I suppose. Second says, But this one we're not invited to. First says, What? Second says, Nothing and throws the first his Sonic. Which, if there are only the two of them there, would mean the Doc who is left behind now has BOTH Sonics. Not bloody likely. So this pretty much proves there are at least 3 Doctors in this episode. The one left behind seems pretty certain that he is Flesh. Second Doc tells him that he may survive pretty much as if he knows that he will survive ... in fact, the subtext seems to be that the Doc that leaves is the GangerDoc that did survive. At least, as far as I can see, both of them are wearing red ties. That's a beautiful word. Shenanigans. Oh, and very interesting that the Doctor (whichever one it is that makes it into the TARDIS) has Rory stand away when he's dissolving Flamy. Because if Rory was not also Flesh, why would he need to stand away?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 10:07 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts -

    by sam jacksons wig

    ***It's anyone's guess which Doc is which at the end*** Do you mean all the way through the episode or at the VERY end? Because it would have been clearly easy to tell which was real as the GangerDoc melted. With regards to the flesh, the question has to be also asked as to how the Doc knew to go there in the first place. The Tardis lands and the Doc from the getgo seems to have a clear purpose. We are meant to think that he sticks his hand into the flesh Vat accidentally, but what if he did it on purpose as part of some grand scheme? The Tardis also caused the flesh to become real after a few minutes in it, so how did ganger Amy melt? And if the Tardis transforms the flesh, there is every good chance that GangerDoc (however many of them are bouncing about) has been made real and that's how the Doc dies. Stay safe! SJW.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 10:26 a.m. CST

    @SJW

    by veteran_of_mu

    There may also be a Blinovitch violation here if, as it seemed from demeanour (if not ties) it turned out that the Doc that prompted the creation of the GangerDoc was a later version of the GangerDoc. However just as likely we'll see that it was the Dream Lord controlling the normal Doc's body. Or something ... Bah, even I'm beginning to get sick of this theory!

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Another point, Sam and caractuspotts

    by DoctorTom

    We saw the Doctor dissolve the ganger of Amy. when we saw gangerDoc dissolve the monster at the end we also know that the sonic dissolved him as well. So, if the sonic dissolved Amy, it should have also dissolved the Doctor if the one in the TARDIS was also a ganger. <br> I think there's only the one GangerDoc. He might be back, and there's plenty of time for the Doctor to go back and check him out (it could have been done at any time while the Doctor was gathering the forces for A Good Man Goes To War - presumably while Rory is getting River). <br> I don't see the Doctor knowing about the gangerDoc before he's actually made the gangerDoc - his comments seem to be based on knowing that Amy is a Flesh avatar, not because there's a duplicate of himself running around.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 11:22 a.m. CST

    The Star Trek Remastered Editions...

    by bubcus

    ... are fantastic. If they are tweaking old Doctor Who episodes in this fashion, I would have no problems whatsoever.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    For some of them, they are

    by DoctorTom

    The remastered snake on Kinda was fantastic. I don't know about the ST remastered editions, but with the Doctor Who ones where they put in the new special effects you have the choice of going with the original effect or going with the new one. <br> I hope they do a new Lock Ness Monster for Terror of the Zygons.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 11:38 a.m. CST

    doctortom.. hello my friend!!..

    by sam jacksons wig

    The point that has to be raised and I don't know how it hasn't cropped up before now is how did the Doc know about the flesh in the first place, and how did he know where to visit? We could suggest that the Tardis took him where he needed to go, but that seems too convoluted as one would have to deduce that the Tardis knows more than the Doctor, and again we could look at it all and consider that yes it's predictable it's happening in a different time stream, but going back to something that was mentioned a while ago, most of this is occuring BEFORE the events of series 5, which means the cracks in time have yet to exist, as do the events in the Pandorica and the formation of the Alliance (with the news of the erm "guest" appearance of a certain species that looks ever so much more likely.) It is more likely this fame (AGMGTW) and his fame spreading farther and wider that kickstarts the kidnap plot, and the Big Bang creating the cracks in time a la Paradox!! (Still with me? Jesus, I'm not!!!!:)) So we will at some point have 2 time lines, two universes and two Doctors. I think.....

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Sam, some good points

    by DoctorTom

    I'll agree that the Doctor's fame, probably combined with other actions of the Doctor (which led to the fame) played into kidnapping Amy. It wouldn't surprise me, though, if there had already been a plot to 'grow-your-own' Time Lord, but they adapted the plan to use Melody when they found out about a pregnant Amy. Which raises the question - how did these people know about Amy being pregnant in the first place? <br> The 2 universes wouldn't surprise me, given references to parallel universes being nested within each other (Curse of the Black Spot) and the reinforcement of things being outside this universe (The Doctor's Wife). I don't know if we're getting a parallel universe at the end or if it's just our universe after it gets mucked about with too much by amateurs (the people who have Melody). <br> I also wouldn't be surprised at 2 Doctors, or maybe even 3. Possibilities for duplicate Doctors are the doppelganger Doctor getting better, and if the Doctor who sealed himself outside of the universe in The Big Bang is still out there, and the one we've been seeing since the wedding in A Big Bang is actually a second Doctor. If this turns out to be true, then there might be another Rory out there too, the one who got sucked into the crack in the Silurian story. This might let them kill Kenny, er, Rory again and still have him around for stories after that.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 2:22 p.m. CST

    doctortom - you UNDERSTOOD my post!!?? ;)

    by sam jacksons wig

    The Rory issue you mentioned; yeah! Haven't we also been told that the multiple Rory deaths will be answered this series? And more than 1 Doc either by design or accident seems the most plausible train of thought. But the nagging doubt of the mother of all curveballs still to be thrown sits at the back of my mind.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Okay, the main questions I want answered for S6:

    by sam jacksons wig

    1) How many Doctors are running around? 2) How did the Doc know where and how to find the flesh in the first place? 3) When exactly was Amy taken and how did they know she was with child? (unless River told them!!!) 4) Who is the time child? 5) How did the astronaut get in and out of the lake? (Tardis???) 6) What did River mean when she said "Of course.."? 7) Do ALL of the events taking place preceed S5? Prepare for the ride of your life!!!!!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:10 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    The answer is.. 42! Ok, in all seriousness, I think we know some of the answers. There are probably more than one Doctor in the new universe, and we are not talking about gangers. As for the flesh, and when the Doctor knew, we might not find out. It might not matter. We know he found out somehow, but does it matter when? The same, of course, with Amy. It has to be after she conceives a child, but beyond that, does it matter when? Now, the time child, of course, I think will be answered, though it might be one of those questions which remains after this season. We are told some will. This is the kind which I think will - we are expected to think it is River, and we will find out it is not her. So who is it? That's next season, and the 50th anniversary. Time Lord territory. As for the astronaut, I think he will be Rory and we will find explanations soon enough. I could be wrong, but Rory is the one impossibility which transcends the Doctor's understanding. Oh, and Satan, but I doubt it's Satan in the suit. I believe the last episode will connect with the wedding of Amy and Rory. I also think whenever we see the Doctor in the wedding outfit, it happens (for him) before the wedding in S5.

  • 1) Why does Rory only sometimes remember being the Last Centurion? <br> 2) When Amy is telling baby Melody about her father the Last Centurion, she's talking like there's the legend of him on Earth, but that was supposed to have taken place in a universe that got overwritten with Big Bang 2. Who exactly knows this legend of the Last Centurion? <br> 3) Does this mean that the Pandorica still happened in the new timeline? <br> 4) Why did the regeneration from Tennant to Matt Smith cause the destruction that it did when it hasn't previously? <br> 4a) Is there a link between the regeneration and what's been happening in Season 5 and 6 (cracks in time, the Silents, etc.) <br> 5) Does River know she is going to die in the Library? <br> 6) From River's standpoint, what order do her adventures take place in? The Library and Angel stories took place in the 51st century, while she picked up the vortex manipulator in the 52nd century (5145). Demon's run isn't dated. <br> 7) (Followup from 6) When does the River from the end of A Good Man Goes To War come from, and how much time separates that one from the one at the beginning of A Good Man Goes To War? When Rory came to get her, she already knew about the battle and knew that she couldn't go. <br> 8) Who developed the time machine that the Silents are seen with in The Impossible Astronaut?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Horn- Mr Adams would be proud sir!!....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... must dash, but acknowledging your post (more detailed response tomorrow I promise), and the thought that if the Doc in the top hat is the one that turned up at Amys wedding, then the one that blinked out of existance at the end of The Big Bang was NEVER resurrected, but actually DID die? If so, then there ARE 3 Doctors. Speak later, stay safe and I hope that you are well my friend!!!

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    Goodnight Docbackers! Speak to you all tomorrow!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Sam - the curveball

    by DoctorTom

    Is it possibly that the Doctor actually is the villain? (or maybe A Doctor?) And what's the relation between him and the Doctor we've been watching - The one that sealed himself outside the universe? Flesh doppelganger? Just older (and being influenced more by the dark urges that were personified in the Dream Lord)? Season 2 parallel universe Tennant-hand Doctor having regenerated after all after he ditched Rose and got back to his own universe? (well, maybe not this one) Generic Spock-beard mirror universe Doctor?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - who's in the astronaut suit

    by DoctorTom

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's Rory. I don't think it's Satan in the suit - we saw him in The Satan Pit and he looked a little large to squeeze inside. <br> But, there's the question of what all the specialized alien life support was needed for in the suit.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:30 p.m. CST

    Sam-- not necessarily

    by HornOrSilk

    What if the Doctor in the top hat IS the Doctor who goes to the wedding, but it is all timey-wimey? We assume what we see in the wedding is the recreation of the Doctor, but what if it is the top-hat Doctor somehow emerging from the trouble he is in to pick up Amy and Rory, give them their honeymoon, and then vanish as a previous version of himself interacts with them the rest of the first half of the season?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:31 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    There is no beard, so it's not the mirror-universe Doctor... But the curve ball, I think, lies with the top hat.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:36 p.m. CST

    doctortom -- the suit

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it is young Rory. Why he is in there, I don't know, but my guess he is "dead" and the suit is keeping him alive live, like we see in Silence in the Library. How's that for impossible?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 3:51 p.m. CST

    In that case, hornorsilk

    by DoctorTom

    Does the young Rory in an astronaut suit get a Nurse's license in the year 1990?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 5:11 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    No, he gets a psychic paper badge ;)

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 6:56 p.m. CST

    What the hell??

    by DVaderRIP

    Posts deleted for no reason???? Forget it, I've got better things to do than write long posts that get deleted. Life is too short.

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 8:03 p.m. CST

    Here's the one question I really want answered.

    by veteran_of_mu

    A brilliant new theory - all the Doctors are Prisoner Zero! Only kidding. But here's another new theory. All the Doctors are Zygons! Um, still kidding. Wait a moment ... there. The concrete evidence we have of Three doctors is the two sonics noted in my blue/red review of the second Flesh episode. But just riddle me this: In the second Flesh episode the Doctor is stuck in a locked room with a pot of acid that is about to boil over and kill him and Amy and everyone. This Doctor knows this because his sonic screwdriver just told him so. His problem is how to get out of this locked room. Whose door is unattended. And did I mention he has a sonic screwdriver? Don't feel bad - I didn't twig to it either until just now. But you tell me: Why didn't the Doctor in the acid room he's scanning with the sonic just use the sonic to unlock the door and let everyone out?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 8:45 p.m. CST

    The one question I really want answered.

    by veteran_of_mu

    A brilliant new theory - all the Doctors are Prisoner Zero! Only kidding. But here's another new theory. All the Doctors are Zygons! Um, still kidding. Wait a moment ... there. The concrete evidence we have of Three doctors is the two sonics noted in my blue/red review of the second Flesh episode. But just riddle me this: In the second Flesh episode the Doctor is stuck in a locked room with a pot of acid that is about to boil over and kill him and Amy and everyone. This Doctor knows this because his sonic screwdriver just told him so. His problem is how to get out of this locked room. Whose door is unattended. And did I mention he has a sonic screwdriver? Don't feel bad - I didn't twig to it either until just now. But you tell me: Why didn't the Doctor in the acid room he's scanning with the sonic just use the sonic to unlock the door and let everyone out?

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 8:46 p.m. CST

    Grr. Disappearing/Reappearing posts.

    by veteran_of_mu

  • Aug. 22, 2011, 10:01 p.m. CST

    SJW regarding the astronaut

    by The Transformed Man

    It just occurred to me (and I don't know if anyone else has brought this up): maybe the astronaut suit is a TARDIS? Just throwing that onto the pile of possibilities.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 5:15 a.m. CST

    Day of the daleks

    by Evilmeister

    Just watched this: its available on daily motion for anybody who doesn't want to buy it and knows how to use a search engine :D I thought I'd seen it as a kid, as one of my earliest memories is watching Job Pertwee's doctor. Anyway to cut a long story short, it is retro sci-fi nerdgasm perfection. I recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 7:51 a.m. CST

    @doctortom - The Silents/Lodger spaceship

    by Fuck The Napkin

    It's got to be the Daleks, surely. The control console has a similar design to the panels on the outside of the Dalek Emperor, and the globe controls look perfectly designed for a plunger arm. Can't think who else might be capable of building such a thing. Dalek Emperor: http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/1/1e/Dalek_Emperor.jpg Lodger room: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/DoctorWhoTheLodgerUpstairs.jpg

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 8:06 a.m. CST

    Day was also basis of Pertree Dr Who stage show

    by Fourthwall

    Daleks on stage at Wimbledon theatre with Pertree ad libbing- what could be better

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    Doc knocks back the plonk in Day

    by veteran_of_mu

    Doesn't spit it out like Doc 11. Also shoots Ogrons with a ray gun and doesn't think twice about it. How times have changed ... As for the question I asked before, a disturbing answer occurred to me. Not certain I take it seriously but worth asking anyway ... Is it possible that there is no reason the Doc didn't sonic his way out of the acid room - that it's just a duff scene and that the Moff isn't actually all-seeing and all-knowing? Just asking ... ?

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 9:21 a.m. CST

    Spoilers. I was wrong on the last episode

    by HornOrSilk

    The full title is, apparently: The Wedding of River Song.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 9:42 a.m. CST

    The Astronaut suit isn't a TARDIS

    by DoctorTom

    The Doctor and River checked out the astronaut suit in 1969. While they saw alien technology and weapons systems, there was no mention of it accessing the time/space vortex or being bigger on the inside.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 9:47 a.m. CST

    The Silents/Lodger ship

    by DoctorTom

    Daleks might be a guess, but I suspect not. The Daleks are too arrogant to put in an emergency hologram system that would mimic the form of some other race. More likely they'd mount weapon turrets in to exterminate anyone non-Dalek who happened to walk into their ship. <br> Still, those do look like they might accomodate Dalek plungers, and the control panel could be Dalek bumps. Maybe the ship was created by the Johnathan Price Master after he got Aetheric Beam Detectors.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Caractuspotts - the acid room scene

    by DoctorTom

    It's a good spot. Maybe the Doctor trusted the other Doctor to pull him out, or Rory to get away or come back, or any other rationalization that we can come up with that wasn't actually mentioned in the show itself. The Doctor should have tried the sonic and found out it didn't work. <br> I wouldn't lay all the blame at the feet of Moffat, though it's something that he might have caught reading the script (on the other hand, we haven't really thought about it until now, after watching it a few times). He didn't write the script itself, though. The person who wrote Fear Her was.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:29 a.m. CST

    oH YES!!!!!! YES!!!!!! (spoilers guys!)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Simon Callow announced for episode 13!!! Fantastic news!!! A much celebrated actor, and fanastic as Charles Dickens in the Unquiet Dead, which, lest we forget also starred the gorgeous Eve Myles!!! I hope he gets to deliver more than just one line in this one!!!! (and I am aware he got to mention more than one line in his last Who appearance!!! ;)

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:32 a.m. CST

    I'm with doctortom- tha suit isn't a Tardis.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and would be an unlikely vessel or disguise for one I'm afraid. I've also never seen the Tardis shoot a green death ray at anyone. Not a bad idea though!!!

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Horn... the wedding (theoretical spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...now then my friend, here we open up all sorts of possibilities!!! Events in S6 thst happen before S5? Check. The Doc could have gotten hitched to River before he came back to Rory and Amys. We explained away the wearing of the suit from the "something old, new" etc lines but it would be seriously cunning stuff if the Moff gave us this wedding after another secret one!!! As you more than likely know the episode contains the dialogue of "I don't want to marry you..." "I don't want to kill you..." but I believe IMHO it's far too quirky to believe that River actually pulled the trigger. Thoughts???

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Well, if it were a TARDIS

    by DoctorTom

    it wouldn't need to bother with piddling little things like green death rays, since it would be able to shoot out a tractor beam capable of pulling a planet around.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Thoughts on the wedding

    by DoctorTom

    If the Doctor got hitched to River, then that was a completely different Doctor outside the house coincidentally dressed in a tux who wasn't married to River yet (since he asked her about if they're married). You'd have to be able to explain where that Doctor came from and why he had a tux if the one that materialized during the wedding was a later Doctor from after River's wedding.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    doctortom - the Doc being the villain???.... hmmmm..

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..the more I think about it the more I am leaning to believe that if the Doc ends up being the TRUE villain in all of this then our man Moff would have to think up a way of doing it so as not to alienate his core audience. We can accept that the Doc will slip, and being "brilliant" to quote Mr Tennant, his mistakes tend to have greater consequences than you and I erring. Seeing the Doc deal with his failure and the trauma to time and space as well as his friends would no doubt change his demeanour; the man with the keys to the universe (what a great episode title that would make! Copyright SJW!!!! ;), if he fell truly WOULD become the greatest war criminal in history. But again- guarantee a way to lose viewers- turn your hero into a monster. Especially for the family demograph and the MAIN EVENT time Who hits our screens. There is no doubts Mr The Sir The Moff will play with the Docs head. He has told us this much. But I doubt we'll get the Doc in any true Villain role...... Stay safe and healthy my friend!! SJW.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Actually, we've had the Doctor in a villain role before

    by DoctorTom

    the Dream Lord and the Valeyard. If it's done in a manner like that you wouldn't alienate the core audience - heck, with all the Valeyard mentions I'd expect collective shouts of joy if he popped up - or the Doctor with the Dream Lord personality.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 11:28 a.m. CST

    And, I have to ask

    by DoctorTom

    what the heck is going on in the picture put on on the BBC Doctor Who website yesterday? <br> http://tinyurl.com/3l9hobe <br> Is that River on the right? I'm guessing that this will be the Amy robot that we've heard mentioned - and now I'm wondering if we've just had a 3rd trick played on the Doctor: <br> 1) gangerAmy <br> 2)gangerMelody <br> 3) that wasn't the real Amy they rescued, it's a robot. (And, is the robot a 51st century refinement of the technology going into the astronaut suit? One combined with TARDIS or general spatioengineering to make the inside larger than the outside?)

  • ...and since it doesn't look like we'll get the Valeyard anytime soon seeing any part of the Doc as the real bad guy looks remote. We will see him get "darker" (I detest that overused cliche) no doubts about it, but fans to Nu-Who need to be introduced to who the Valeyard is over a period of time for the character to truly resonate; otherwide it just becomes Doc against Doc that that may not have the chance of getting over in TV land. Kids want to love the Doc, not hate him, and as such there would have to be that clear distinction. And yes!!! My goodness!!! Wouldn't you, I and others here just love to see a Valeyard in the offing!! SJW. p.s- and I would give my "I" teeth to see a return of Toby Jones as the Dream Lord.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 11:59 a.m. CST

    doctortom- ref the picture....(spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..I read a while ago that Amy sees her double riding past her on a bike. She and Rory are shrunk into her robot during the episode, so real Amy is definately present. My own theory on this is that the Tesselecta builds this model in order to assist it right past wrongs. Maybe its using it to attack River who has a erm..salty past at best. Can't wait to find out!!!

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 12:04 p.m. CST

    Some valid points, Sam

    by DoctorTom

    Personally I don't think we'll see the Valeyard as the Valeyard. If they do go down the route of a villain Doctor I would expect flashbacks to the Dream Lord and the mention that he's what the Doctor keeps bottled up, and link that up with how the Doctor is behaving. <br> I agree about getting Toby Jones back. Actually, one way it could be done is if they actually do the bad Doc. Then, they could do something from the bad Doc's point of view, and he could see Toby Jones egging him on to do something, then show the bad Doc giving in to his bad urges.

  • As (sort of) clarification of a few points that are up in the air, and a few tidbits that you may or may not know: 1) River Song is different in this episode than she has been. A new demeanour and has been descibed as "far removed" due to the issues being experienced with skewed timelines. This will be interesting to witness, and will undoubtedly pose one hell of alot of questions. 2) The solution to one of the episodes problems apparently is a little cheap, but it also answers a question in regards to Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead (Rivers first appearance). This will be amazing, as quite a few of us have been looking for the link between those episodes and that of Matt Smith. 3) The episode is not about killing Hitler, and Hitler is only an ancillary character throughout. Apparently there is alot more going on inreference to the series arc, although the writing has been described as outstanding from Mr Sir The Moff as it also feels like a standalone piece. 4) The idea of a finite number of regenerations is visited again. This is a subject dear to our hearts here at the DocBack, and it will be fantastic to explore that in greater depth once the episode airs. (one I am specifically looking forward to) 5) We discover the Silence aren’t a race; so what are they then? Are they a creation, and if so, by whom or what? What relevance does that have to how long they've been here and their overall mission? 6) Finally, one of the coolest bits of info I have located is that could the Doctor die sooner than we think? Time CAN be rewritten after all, and how could this come about? Guys, I am seven shades of excited about that is in store here!!! Stay safe!! SJW.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Interesting stuff SJW!

    by Mister Vertue

    Although I do wonder where you get most of your information sometimes. Still, we all know that it's fun to speculate and in about 4 days time we'll all find out for sure just what the hell is going on! Multiple Doctors? Hmmmm. Episode titles? Hmmm hmmm. Who's inside the spacesuit? Indeed! The Valeyard returning? Ummmm, no. Oh wait, what? Really? That can't be true. Really? No. It can't be. Well, that *is* news...

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Headline reads

    by Mister Vertue

    "Peg Dolls Attack Tabloid Journalist", which is nice. What in the Dickens is going on??!!

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 3:31 p.m. CST

    MOV- nice to have you back here!! Hope you are very well!!!....

    by sam jacksons wig

    I personally greeted the news of Simon Callows return to Who will great enthusiasm! The guy is a British Institution, a fantastic "treader of the boards", an author of renoun (his biography of Charles Laughton, one of my favourite actor/directors<although only once!!> is truly wonderful) and played the part of Mr Dickens beautifully back in 2005. Which part he may play is still something to be seen. With regards to information- oh boy, I would like to think that amongst the speculation and conjecture there are a couple of nuggets of truth. But for me, that's where the fun lies, prompting debate and getting others involved in a wonderful programme, and hopefully amongst it all allowing new posters to give us their own thoughts and by posting info such as this, getting them to take the plunge as it were and join in the fun!! There is no doubt that this weekend is going to be crazy here! So much discovery! New plotlines to decipher... who wouldn't look forward to that??? Looking forward to you dropping by again soon and adding your insight into what looks to be a whirlwind of a thread! SJW Oh, and as for where I get my information...? I actually found it in a large pyramid with AREA 52 emblazoned on the side of it. Had to grab it quick though as I was almost run over by a bloody train that came out of nowhere!!! ;)) Take care!! pps- so, am I right with any of it???? DON'T TELL ME!!!!

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Goodnight DocBackers! Enjoy the debate. Speak to you all tomorrow!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • I should really start by saying a big thank you to you all for keeping me entertained in work for the past year and a bit, so THANK YOU! <p> Specoilers ahead(speculation/spoilers, i know nothing). <p> Just wanted to weigh in on the Impossible Astronaut speculation. Caractuspotts' bowtie obsession, especially his specultion concerning a Dr being stuck in the Tardis and only being able to interact with certain points in time got the old brain juices flowing. Well, through all the different tributaries, streams and stagnant pools they passed until they reached an idyllic pond... <p> What's more Impossible than a paradox? Is the suit a Paradox Machine? Whoever is in it can't exist without it so it could be the Dr from his future killing his past self, or Dead Again Rory killing the Dr before the Dr can save him from being Dead Again. <p> The bit that i've been really racking the old brain cells trying to figure out is why the little girl was a paradox up until the events of DOTM. I guess it all hinges on who she really is. <p> Or is this idyllic pond really a festering cesspool and I should just get back to my cigar and whiskey?

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 6:53 p.m. CST

    The Doctor's bowties

    by Mister Vertue

    Could you formulate a similar theory based on Tennant's suits/shoes from earlier episodes? Meaning, if he's seen wearing a different suit (brown/blue) then it means he's a different Doctor from a different timeline. Or could it just be that he's maybe changing his clothes for variety? Still, you crazy buggers could be right in *some* of what you've written. Maybe. Possibly. G'night all!

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST

    MOV

    by Evilmeister

    U are an utter bastid and you know it. Now I won't be able to sleep. If I start dreaming of Matt Smith in nothing but a bow tie, I might just have to go all troll on you

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 7:42 p.m. CST

    The Doctor's Pasta

    by veteran_of_mu

    Get it? The Doc falls further than ever before. Far Fall ... Farfalle - which is Italian for bowties ... Yes, you can tell I dug the Riddler episodes of Adam West Batman. But seriously our doctortom speculated that the Doc's inner Toby Jones could be taking control from time to time. This is who I see discharging his sonic into the vat of Flesh to make the GangerDoc his own external physical embodiment ie. Valeyard. As to MOV's comments ... no I am not going to go back and watch every single David Tennant episode looking at suit colours. Only the episodes written by the Moff.

  • Aug. 23, 2011, 8:04 p.m. CST

    Weighing in on the astronaut suit

    by veteran_of_mu

    I think there's not much point in putting the little girl in the suit if (a) the little girl is not River and (b) the little girl in the suit does not kill the real Doctor. Seriously it would be way too red-herringy to put anyone else in the suit. Now I agree with for-mal-dr-hyde that impossible means paradox. And, in the recent past of doctor who, a paradox has been resolved by the cancellation of a timeline (the master's toclafane arc). Spoilers have suggested we're in for another such cancellation. Which would mean the resolution of TIA through the elimination of the circumstances leading up to The-Doctor-In-The-Stetson. Which may in fact include every 11th Doctor we've seen except for the glum fellow sitting in the TARDIS ...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 4:31 a.m. CST

    Exactly. The "you may be right in some small way" bit...

    by V'Shael

    clearly refers to a redundant aborted timeline, and nothing to do with bowties, ganger docs, Dreamlords, Valeyards etc...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 7:55 a.m. CST

    ,,fun to theorise. Or these forums would be MIGHTY short.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Great news that confirmation of full series in 2012......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...but that is all I shall say on the subject and I will refrain from visiting the actually forum/TB itself for the moment. The TB just feels wrong and some of the comments are unwelcome. So if no-one else visits here, I will see you all on Friday, and enjoy the episode on Saturday!! SJW

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 8:28 a.m. CST

    I have a further theory on the redundant aborted time line

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Stop me if you've heard it. We already have a clue regarding aborted / secondary time lines from Canton's middle name and number, but what else do we have to go on? Well, you'll all recall in DotM that Nixon made a big deal of reciting the names of the two NASA guys - Grant & Gardner. So, who was this Grant Gardner? Why, that was the alter-ego of Captain America from the 1944 Republic serial, which was full of thrills, spills and cliff-hangers and had as its main baddie an entity known as Scarab, which as you all know is a type of beetle. Now, as I'm sure you'll all also remember, the good Doctor has previous with beetles, the most recent of which caused his death and left him unable to regenerate, so... history repeating? Plus, that previous beetle was part of the trickster's brigade - a tricky beetle, if you like, and now we have a Tricky Dicky. So, the President himself is the big bad and is rewriting history. Oh, god, what a rubbish theory; big bad's probably just the Daleks again, with the Silents as nothing more than slightly crappy babysitters who are being used as conduits for this derring-do (and against whom the Doctor has actually committed genocide - bad Doctor!)

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Caractuspotts, I think you mistook me

    by DoctorTom

    I didn't speculate that the Dream Lord is taking over the Doctor from time to time. I speculated he is on the path to having what he has repressed (and was manifested as the Dream Lord) come out, if things keep up. It would be a possible way for having an evil Doctor - a future Doctor. Of course, since we've seen that time can be rewritten (Big Bang) and even people can be rewritten (Christmas Carol) if there is an evil Doctor in the future the younger Doctor might be able to change things enough so that he rewrites his future so that it doesn't happen. <br> I'm not saying that it's the 1103 year old Doctor that's evil - it might be further down the line, or somewhere between 908 and 1103 (with the Doctor having got better.) But, it's a way to have the Doctor as a villain. (So is having the Doctor turn out to be Omega himself, but that's a completely different thing to have to get into, and probably isn't something that is going to happen.) <br> I don't think the Dream Lord is taking over the Doctor now from time to time, and certainly don't think it's the Dream Lord who made the flesh Avatar. He's been shown getting cocky and arrogant when he's angry and emotional - that's really just giving in to the emotions and going a little further than he normally would. Giving in to urges normally suppressed isn't actually having the Dream Lord take possession of him. I had only suggested having something from the villain Doc perspective and having Toby Jones enticing him along because I really liked Toby Jones' performance and would like to see the Dream Lord more. Having the audience see the Doctor see him and be influenced when the Doctor's gone bad would just be a visual cue for the audience. And would get Toby Jones back in the show. <br> In my 'speculation' (really more following up on wishful thinking of getting Toby Jones back in the show) the Dream Lord is really more just another version of those bits where you see a small Devil sitting on the shoulder of someone, egging him on to do something bad. The only question is who you would get to be the representation of the Angel on his other shoulder (it wouldn't be a Weeping Angel...maybe his mother from the End of Time, or maybe make things interesting by having his subconscious good intentions talk to him through a young Amelia he sees)

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 10 a.m. CST

    I hate to say I told you so...

    by Mister Vertue

    But I really *did* tell you so. And more than once if I recall correctly. But at least it's official now eh? No reduction in episodes for 2012.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 10:47 a.m. CST

    MOV- Yes you did......... (big slice of humble pie...;)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..and you recall correctly- more than once. The confirmation from the Man himself is comforting and welcome. Who in 2012 and in 2013 for the 50th!!!! We are all very welcome for your input here, and just maybe need to listen a little more attentively next time?? SJW.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 10:57 a.m. CST

    2012 and all that

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Hooray - a full quota! Right, I'm off to buy a copy of Private Eye in celebration. Or not. Only problem I can forsee with the 2012 full quota is what if the Moff gets burn out? Could it kill him? Or, even worse, could it kill him, and then by some quirk of hideously inappropriate metafiction, lead to him regenerating as a researcher for 'the Jeremy Kyle Show'? I pray that such a thing doesn't happen. Anyway, here is a list of things I'd really like to see in that 2012 series: - A pure historical (just to see if it can be done in this day and age.) - Lemuel Gulliver (preferably played this time by Malcolm McDowell) - More characters who are named after bibilical figures and/or brands of soft drink. - Some hideously complicated logic bombs that end up being readily decipherable by 9-year olds. - And old school style colony story, under attack from its own bueracracy and other monsters and is resolved by everyone but Doctor plus one dying. Should involve machine guns, a precocious child, and a variety of biscuits. - Oh, and DoctorTom, I like the conscience based Dream Lord idea - that could work. As, indeed, could bringing back Omega, but only if he came back in the form of Omega 3, because then he would be oily fish, and he would go perfectly with the pasta bow ties Caractacus has mentioned previously. There was an idea in there somewhere - not sure where it went. - Other stuff, preferably timey-wimey, that goes ding. 'We raised him to a lofty station'

  • "He was a man of truth and sincerety...." Nice Idris tie-in by the way. ;) SJW.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    Tagline for Doctor Who Confidential this coming Saturday....

    by sam jacksons wig

    "River Runs Wild......." Very interesting (and also maybe confirming the information that it is a River orientated episode, with Kingston stealing the show from everyone???)

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    SJW - my favourite bit about Idris, the dear old Doctor's spouse,

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Is the fact that should everyone's favourite Qu'ranic prophet have actually have been the same character as the biblical Enoch, said character was referenced, in the Jewish Septuagint, with the phrase, 'God took him', which is, of course, poetically aposite. Mind you, given that Idris (and by extension Enoch) was a bloke, it looks like Neil Gaiman was actually doing an RTD on us. Talk about shoving it down your throat! Should probably add an emoticon in here somewhere...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST

    Death Is The Only Answer

    by Mister Vertue

    I honestly didn't mean to rub anything in, but I'm only human and when you try to tell everybody that something in the press is a load of rubbish (although it didn't help that someone rather high up at The Beeb made a statement supporting the rumours, which then fuelled the press) with no real way of backing it up straight away, it is a relief to finally say 'Ah ha! At last it's official and the tabloids were wrong!' Of course I understand that I have absolutely no way of proving who I am in the Docbacks, and nor do I have any wish to do so, but *some* of what I say really is true. The bad part is that I sometimes have to throw the odd red-herring in there as well, otherwise you'll have everything ruined for you, won't you? By the way, this week's Confidential will partially deal with the competition that was held earlier this year for primary schools to write a 3 minute mini-episode to air on October 1st on BBC3. The winner has already been chosen, and it's the kids from Oakley CE School in Basingstoke who submitted their amazing story 'Death Is The Only Answer', which Matt absolutely loved. I'm rather looking forward to Saturday, aren't you?

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST

    DW Confidential

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    'River Runs Wild' Wasn't that a movie with Meryl Streep? If so, I can't imagine anything more exciting!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST

    ithrat_cordwallis ....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...gay references?? Here???? AaRRGGHH!!! Lordoflight can smell them from 10,000 miles!! His on-line moniker is, however, quite interesting, and if I'm not mistaken has it's own religeous conotations, those of Hindu and Buddism. My reference to this? A tie in with my own on line nom de plume, as Mahasamatman simply wanted to be known as "Sam" and is narrated as a classic trickster. Is that me??? (insert emoticon)

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:16 p.m. CST

    The Moff and burnout

    by Mister Vertue

    Yes, this will happen eventually. He's getting old you know? He also never gets a day off. Literally never! Every single day he's either writing, visiting sets, promoting the show, checking the rushes, monitoring the edits and a million other things that I don't want to bore you with here. And remember, he's also a husband and father, so with all of that going on, sure, he'll burn out eventually. It's something that he's considered, but tries not to think about too often. It was the same for Russell, but he knew when it was time to hand it over, and The Moff will know it too. Don't worry, he'll be around for a while yet, and when he's gone, the show will continue with a new show-runner who loves Doctor Who just as much as RTD and The Moff did. 'The moment has been prepared for...'

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    MOV- don't worry my friend, you haven't rubbed anything in at all....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...infact you were the sole voice of reason and normailty in an ever swirling sea of shit, which unfortunately swept quite a few of us away in it. If only we had listended a little earlier on we could have been talking about much more prductive things such as Killing Hitler, regenerating little girls and Ganger Docs!! Throwing Red Herrings at us isn't a bad thing at all, neither is being evasive as anything else would certainly diminish our enjoyment of a classic show. It's like I've said before, the majority of us don't want to know everything that will happen and enjoy the speculative aspect of it all- no matter how bizarre it gets (imaginations are terrific!) In regards to you proving who you are, we don't wish you to and nor do you have to. Not at all!! Your involvement in them is not only welcome, but is, to paraphrase merrick, a necessity. These TBs are a much better place wih your input, your enthusiasm and whit, your intelligence AND your willingness to post here. For all of that and more, I thank you with all sincerity. As for looking forward to Saturday, aye, ah cannae wait!!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:36 p.m. CST

    The Moff and burnout....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... yeah, one day the Moff will decide that he would like to explore other avenues and leave Who. What he will have left us with, however, is a set of episodes we will be talking about for years to come, and a new Doctor in Matt Smith who I believe is pre-destined to go down in the annals of Who as possibly the greatest Doctor ever. Nothing lasts forever, but we can enjoy it while we can, build our own Tardis and continually go back in time to delay that "prepared" moment!!!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:48 p.m. CST

    I wish I was still at primary school

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    because then Matt Smith could have loved the teleplay what I wrote, rather than whatever these Oakley kids have come up with. I coulda been a contender, instead of a bum, which is what I is. Oh, and MOV, if that really is you (or him, or whatever; how does one operate personal pronouns at times like this? It's even trickier than the Doctor getting his tenses right), then it could be argued that, er, <personal pronoun> has been hoist aloft by <personal pronoun>s own Jean-Luc Picard in some respects, given <personal pronoun>s professed love of misleading the press. However, I am not going to argue that. Instead, I am going to say that <personal pronoun>s sense of relief is entirely justified, and is probably accompanied by the thought of, 'Why can't those press people tell when I'm lying to them? I mean, blimey, <B>I<B> can tell the difference, so it can't be that difficult.' As far as it goes, I'm actually delighted with anything that keeps Who in the public eye, because, well, it's Who, innit? Oh, and one further pointless thought: red herrings are a cliche and should be avoided at all costs. However, I hear that green herring are the new black, and can be purchased at any outlet of Rymans.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:51 p.m. CST

    SJW

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I was unfamilar with that work by Zelazny until you brought it up, and it looks quite good. Mind you, he's not really done anything good since 'Back to the Future', has he? Ahahahaha...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 12:56 p.m. CST

    I've just noticed that these forums don't like

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    the arrow symbols, which I thought would format my posts, turn my text to bold and so on, but I was wrong; so very, very wrong. Well, that's my own fault of course, so I think I shall revert to the technologically more reliable post-it note as my main form of communication.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Ithrat - Zelazny

    by DoctorTom

    Lord of Light was a wonderful book. It hooked me originally with the sentence 'His name was Mahasamatman, but he preferred to drop the Maha and atman and just be called Sam.' <br> Good side reference to Zemekis, but really if you want to conflate Zelazny with someone, it would be Sam Delany. In the 70s it seemed people would mix the two up for each other for some reason. <br> And, if you can, see if you can pick up his Amber books in audiobook form. He did the audio himself for all but I believe the last one (he was dead at that point, so he was too busy decomposing to record an audio). His voice is raspy from all the cigarettes he had smoked, but it's a wonderful voice to hear his stories from, especially when he gets to reciting lines like 'I loved him like a brother, which is to say not at all.'

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:13 p.m. CST

    MOV- feel free to rub things in

    by DoctorTom

    I have tremendously enjoyed your presence here, and your posts continue to be informative and entertaining. Especially posts dealing with reindeer. ;) <br> Thanks for the confirmation from you and Sam on the 2012 season (I hadn't seen it posted up at The Doctor Who News Page yet). It's nice to know that sometimes sanity prevails. <br> I don't think you need to prove who you are or aren't, just having you around for the DocBacks is good enough for me.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:17 p.m. CST

    Sam and MOV - The Moff and burnout

    by DoctorTom

    I know the moment has been prepared for....but has it been prepared for by creating a horde of gangers of the Moff so that he can have them handle all his different duties? When one ganger gets tired, send in a new one from the rotation? And, does he have enough gangers to make his own football team? ;) <br> (Well, I think that might be the first time we've gotten to use theories about gangers for situations outside the program itself.)

  • I think it was Sam who gave the full name first: The Wedding of River Song. Doctor Who News had it buried in the Death Is The Only Answer story. I think it's cool that they've filmed the mini-episode and are going to show it the same day as the season finale. <br> 3 days, 6 hours, 22 minutes until the US showing of Let's Kill Hitler. (Me, impatient to see it? Naaaahhh....)

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    doctortom-

    by sam jacksons wig

    All joking apart, maybe the Moff would feel press ganged into coupling with the flesh, resulting in murder most horrid and the corpse having to be outlined in chalk. He would certainly have to stay lucky to avoid all of that.. Now I want a goddam prize!!!!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Oh no, no Gangers

    by Mister Vertue

    The Moff's replacement will be as different as Peter Davison is to Colin Baker, if that makes sense. A fan of the show, but with different ideas I'm sure. Either way, it'll be in *very* safe hands indeed.

  • ...it wasn't pleasant. It was covered in post-it notes and had papyrus shoved up its arse...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    That was good, Sam!

    by DoctorTom

    Except that you forgot to mention that having all the gangers might make him feel like Jekyll and Hyde, and that resulting murder would be done in such a fiendishly clever (and possibly timey-wimey) manner that the solution would tax even the abilities of Sherlock Holmes. <br> heh, now you've got me doing it too!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Sherlock

    by Mister Vertue

    I pointed this out in Herc's Docback, but figured it was worth repeating here too. Sherlock wraps tonight (hopefully) so that should give us a tx date in the coming months. It's been a trickier than usual shoot this time around. Oh well!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    MOV - good news! thanks!

    by DoctorTom

    How much did the rioting end up impacting the whole schedule?

  • I like knowing the moment has been prepared for, but it worries me that there are already thoughts for preparing for the moment. On the other hand, I've seen the statements about planning for the 50th anniversary, so that means we should have at least 2 more good years of Doctor Who from the Moff. Plus, hopefully he can be enticed back to write the occasional episode after he steps down from the producer spot. I quite like the idea of Moff being the 21st century Robert Holmes for Doctor Who (with some Hinchcliffe and Williams added in for seasoning).

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:50 p.m. CST

    oh, and thanks for mentioning Herc's Docback

    by DoctorTom

    I had only kept this thread open in a different tab and hadn't been to the main AICN site to see we had a new thread! (It's one of those days).

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    MOV- some great titles in the upcoming Sherlock...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..it will be fantastic to see the modern take on it. Cumberbatch and Freeman were out of this world last time, and the cliffhanger from last time had my normally placid wife cry " OH YOU ARE FUCKING KIDDING!!!!" at the television. My personal favourite? Andrew Scott. Completely mesmerising and great foil for Sherlock.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2 p.m. CST

    These talkbacks show up non-chronologically on my computer

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    So there I was, reading about the Moff and his burnout, which wiollen haven happened thousands of years ago in the future, and it was only siginifcantly after that that I realised that it stemmed from one of my own posts. What the blazes is going on? What was it I was saying about post-it notes? Anyways, from a purely creative point of view, in addition to the inevitable exhaustion and desire to be with family, I would argue that five years (or, at a push, seven) is probably a good stretch, because at that point it will be about time to see someone else's vision. This is by means suggesting a desire for the top dog to leave, because his tenure has been excellent imho, but there will come a time when it will be interesting to see a whole different take on the Who, and by that stage even a mind as prolific and inventive as the Moff's will have used most of its tricks within the Who setting and might be in danger of repeating itself. One further thought - how the hell is it does the Tardis have a vertical swimming pool??? THIS DAMNED SHOW BREAKS THE LAW OF PHYSICS, AND IS AN OUTRAGE!

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    SJW - oh just you wait

    by Mister Vertue

    Take a healthy dose of Cumberbatch and Freeman and then add a pinch of Lara Pulver to the mix. The results are truly magnificent. Your wife will *not* be placid whilst watching series 2, I can assure you that.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    by means = by *no* means

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    How the hell is it does = how the hell does. Remind me again; where are the edit buttons? Bloody forums...

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Future show-runner

    by Mister Vertue

    If The Moff makes it to the end of 2013, then there's a chance he could continue, but anything is possible, isn't it? You always have to have Plans B and C ready and waiting just in case (see previous posts on other Docbacks).

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2:11 p.m. CST

    MOV- I have read she is scheduled to appear as Irene Adler...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..in a Scandal In Belgravia. That will be awesome stuff! My most anticipated episode for the new series? The new take on the CLASSIC CLASSIC CLASSIC Hound of the Baskervilles! Maybe I should procure a swear box for my wife.

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    That's it- goodnight all! Speak to you all later!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 24, 2011, 6:57 p.m. CST

    Question for the experts.

    by veteran_of_mu

    Since I've donated my eyeballs to science, specifically to the exciting new discipline of decametachronocolospectrometry, I was wondering whether anyone could refer me to the definitive list of all Doc 10 episodes written (or heavily influenced) by the Moff. It's not that I don't want to review the other ones, but, despite the fact that Who has no cannon, I think they'd be less relevant, decametachronocolospectrometrically speaking, than those where the Moff had some creative control. ("Add some further flourishes, it's so ro-co-co-coscious ...")

  • Aug. 25, 2011, 1:14 a.m. CST

    Moffat written episodes....

    by V'Shael

    Doctor Who and The Curse of Fatal Death The Empty Child The Doctor Dances The Girl in the Fire Place Blink Time Crash Silence in the library Forest of the Dead The Eleventh Hour The Beast Below Time of Angels Flesh and Stone The Pandorica Opens The Big Bang A Christmas Carol Space Time The Impossible Astronaut Day of the Moon A Good Man Goes To War Let's Kill Hitler The Wedding of River Song He also influenced the decision to keep the Doctors daughter alive.

  • Aug. 25, 2011, 6:39 a.m. CST

    Future Show runner...

    by V'Shael

    From reading The Writers Tale, we know that RTD started making initial approaches to the Moff something like three years before he actually left the show. One might infer from that, that the Moff has at least made an initial sounding-out to some potential replacement(s) already. Just a thought. If Neil Gaiman wasn't already such a completely busy writer, I'd start reminding people he was involved (somewhat) in the production of Neverwhere back in the 90s. Oh well.

  • Aug. 25, 2011, 8:39 a.m. CST

    It makes sense, V'shael

    by DoctorTom

    It makes perfect sense to have plans in place for handing the show over whenever the day comes, rather than waiting for the day burnout happens and then trying to figure out who to hand over to. <br> This doesn't mean that it's happening soon, just that there are backup plans in place. Given the talk, it sounds like we have the Moff around through 2013 anyway - the excitement of getting to do the 50th anniversary season will probably help stave off feelings of burnout. Whether he hands it over after the 50th, or keeps going a few years after that before handing it over is what we'll have to see. <br> I also wouldn't be surprised to see the show handed over to somebody who's already written for the show, but really it's far, far too early to try speculating on exactly who it is. Besides, we shouldn't be spending time speculating on who's running Who after the Moff when the time is better spent speculating on what we're going to get from the Moff these next few years.

  • Aug. 25, 2011, 1:19 p.m. CST

    See you Saturday, Sam!

    by DoctorTom

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:18 a.m. CST

    Thanks V'Shael!

    by veteran_of_mu

    Now I just have to find a little more time ...

  • LAst!

  • March 21, 2012, 10:47 a.m. CST

    Never last Perigee. Never ever...

    by V'Shael

    Mwah hah hah hah....