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UPDATED!! 'A Good Man Goes To War' On This Weekend's DOCTOR WHO!! READER REACTION To The Mid-Season/Series Cliffhanger!!
Merrick again...
With some quick, stream-of-consciousness, SPOILER-FREE thoughts on "A Good Man Goes To War."
Brilliantly scripted by Steven Moffat and propulsively directed by Peter Hoar, this episode is the best of the show's Sixth Series/Season and arguably (please note my emphasis of that word) the finest of the Moffat / Matt Smith era. "A Good Man Goes To War'" isn't about "What the fuck!?" moments. It is, instead, a tour of...and a refresher course in...the heart, soul, and spirit of recent DOCTOR WHO (Seasons/Series 5 and 6 in particular).
It is rollicking and nasty, stirring and wrenching, passionate and coy - deftly wrapping all of these contrary qualities into a breezy package whose ultimate significance is the personal/emotional consequence of the episode's events more than the (seemingly meaningful) events themselves.
Matt Smith is transcendent here - his range perfectly matching, and pivoting with, the episode's persistent tonal shifts. Rory haters might find more to like about the character in this installment. He's strong, driven, and relentless - moreso than I recall having seen evidenced in the character previously. I'd argue that River Song's appearance and utilization here is, perhaps, a bit too abbreviated and expository - although I do see why this particular storyline would've been more difficult to convey if her part in it had been more integral.
This is a very strong outro for the first half of this Season/Series, complete with a closing teaser card that is likely to incite as much scuttlebutt and speculation as the entirety of this installment. Go to the bathroom in advance, turn off your phones, pull your curtains/blinds, clear your head, and follow "A God Man..." into war. It's a helluva ride.
- original article follows -
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more by Paul Hanley
Merrick here...
Saturday brings U.K. viewers "A Good Man Goes To War" - the seventh episode in this Series/Season of DOCTOR WHO, and our last installment before the show's much-lamented mid-Series/Season cliffhanger and hiatus.
This prequelish mini-episode sets up some of what we'll see...
PROGRAMING AND TALKBACK NOTES
"A Good Man Goes To War" airs in the U.K. Saturday June 4.
BBC AMERICA will broadcast the episode one week from now - on Saturday June 11 - at 9/8c. THIS TALKBACK WILL AGAIN BE MADE AVAILABLE TO NORTH AMERICAN VIEWERS when the episode is shown here in the U.S. Check next week's DOCTOR WHO Talkback - which will launch Friday morning U.S time (June 10) - for a link back to this "Good Man Goes To War" Talkback.
BBC AMERICA will broadcast "The Almost People" - which aired in the U.K. last weekend - this weekend (Saturday June 4 at 9/8c) here in the U.S. NORTH AMERICAN VIEWERS: you can still participate in last week's "Almost People" Talkback - which was gloriously gargantuan (over 1,000 posts).
"The Almost People" Talkback Is Still HERE!!
U.K. VIEWERS/TALKBACKERS: please feel free to revisit the "Almost People" Talkback after the episode airs in North America on Saturday. There may well be some good discussion waiting to be had, and fresh insight still to be found, once North America gets a look at the show. NOTE: It is completely feasible for both "Good Man" and "Almost People" Talkbacks to not only run parallel with each other over this weekend, but mutually place on the Top Talkbacks sidebar.
BBC America has delayed broadcast of "A Good Man Goes To War" by one week to accommodate an anticipated drop in viewership during the recent Memorial Day holiday here in The States. The episode will, however, air in the U.K. Saturday June 4 as anticipated.
As such, and quite naturally, this Talkback will become a SPOILER ZONE when the episode airs in the U.K. tomorrow evening (late tomorrow morning U.S. time). U.S. viewers should tread very carefully 'round/after tomorrow (Saturday June 4) morning as SPOILERS will be afoot.
BBCA airs "A Good Man Goes To War" next Saturday (June 11) - 9/8c. As stated above, when the episode broadcasts in the U.S., this Talkback will once more be made available to North American viewers. Check next week's DOCTOR WHO Talkback for a direct link.
--- follow Merrick on Twitter ! ---
coming next week:
Weekly DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks continue with a look at the forthcoming "Time and the Rani" and "Frontios" DVD releases (although "Frontios" may be held until the following week's TB), some thumbnail musings on my efforts to catch up with 'classic' WHO (this week I watched "Genesis of the Daleks," "The Talons Of Weng-Chiang," and am now entering the "City of Death" - thanks to everyone for their recommendations), and more...
S6 (1)
See DOCTOR WHO Season/Series Six Episode 1 - "The Impossible Astronaut" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.
See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.
Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.
Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife" - is available HERE in HD, while standard def is availabe HERE.
Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.
Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.
Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.
Readers Talkback
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....this will be awesome!
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Wooo!
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Jackcarter will look foolish!
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Looking good !
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The last episodes was one of of absolute favorites, and this one's looking even better.
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Is Amy Pond the cutest thing on TV EVER??? YES!!
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Looking forward to the Jenny issue. Whether she is the Sword wielding victorian or regenerated back into a child (she never had a childhood, afterall) or whether she's a giant, smelly red herring :)
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I have a couple of theories in mind, which the AICN editor has chosen to scrap more than once.... 1) Some massive alteration to the timeline, such as killing River, and the affect that would have as it propagates through the Doctors timeline. And then he says basically "Fuck it" to maintaining the timeline. 2) One of the doctors companions turns against him, like Rory siding with the bad guys for the sake of Amy. 3) The Doctor does something truly horrific like killing Amy and her baby (by accident or by design) I mean, it has to be something truly terrible and unexpected if we're to talk about it all summer...
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The Doctor's highest hour: He gets the Sontarans, the Cybermen working FOR HIM and not against him.
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June 3, 2011, 8:18 a.m. CST
This is it DocBackers......the deep breath before the plunge....
by sam jacksons wig
Headless Monks River Song The identity of the child The Doctors darkest hour An alliance both old and new and the mother of all cliffhangers...... ...what's not to like??????
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I'm not sure if they'd go that dark with the doctor, seems way too out of character.
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***I have a couple of theories in mind, which the AICN editor has chosen to scrap more than once....*** Not sure what you mean?
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June 3, 2011, 8:21 a.m. CST
Oh and speaking of the headless monks in episode 7 (as seen in the trailer all jedi like, so no spoilers)
by sam jacksons wig
They were first mentioned in the Episode "Time of Angels..." when the Doc and Amy are in the museum. The Doc states that the place they are in is the "last resting place of the Headless Monks." So, do you think we'll see a return there and the Doc ACTUALLY despatching them, and talking about himself to Amy in previous events????? HOLY PARADOX BATMAN!!!!!
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Afternoon all! Here's an interesting fact for all you lovely Docbackers (that *is* what you're calling yourself here, I'm sure I read that before) - episode 7 of this series also happens to be episode 777 of the entire series. Was that done on purpose? Of course not, but it's a nice wee happenstance, isn't it? Okay, back to work I go. I'm sure I'll be back at some ungodly hour before I retire to my pit for the night. You know, I'm growing rather fond of you all in here. Ta ta for now!
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June 3, 2011, 8:23 a.m. CST
Merrick- can you confirm that these TBs will continue after the final episode airs? Thanks!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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A red herring in Doctor Who? Oh, they *never* do that. That would be terribly naughty of them. That's like calling The Doctor and River Song liars! Outrageous!
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June 3, 2011, 8:26 a.m. CST
The cliffhanger is all to do with River Song and her identity....
by sam jacksons wig
....apparently she reveals her identity right at the end. Oh, and there is supposedly very little of the Cybermen (already out there so no spoilers) in this episode.
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I... just wanted you to know that.
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Yes! Every Friday morning during the break (prob late morning U.S. time) I'll launch a new DOCTOR WHO Talkback. We'll discuss... ** classic eps newly released & upcoming on DVD... ** theforthcoming 1/2 Season DVD/Blu-Ray set for Season/Series 6... ** I'll ponder the 'classic' / 'important' eps I am now watching (from throughout the entire history of the show)... ** We'll check-out some audio adventures.... ** We'll argue about "bests" and "worsts" of everything (characters, eps, etc.) ** And anything else you folks wish to discuss! I'm open to suggestions... We'll resume normal Series/Season Six DW Talkback formatting and structure when the show returns from hiatus. Beginning next Friday.
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I know. I'm SUCH a naughty boy :) Still. The truth will out :) I am fairly confident on River's identity, it's the Child's real Identity that I am on tenterhooks about. That and wondering whether among the debtors is one Capt Jack....
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June 3, 2011, 8:32 a.m. CST
CBTML- I thought that Dicks-o-sucker was your hero???
by sam jacksons wig
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What do you think of Lawrence Miles?
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June 3, 2011, 8:33 a.m. CST
Merrick- you are a god!!! And that's a little better than being a hero!!! CB- trash those lights my brother!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 3, 2011, 8:34 a.m. CST
I reckon the end of A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR will be similar to a Scooby Doo episode
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
River will pull off her latex face and, as the camera shoots forward, she'll say "I could've gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddlin' kids!"
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June 3, 2011, 8:35 a.m. CST
That's a cool Tom Baker piece of art, by the way
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
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June 3, 2011, 8:36 a.m. CST
CB- so is the Doctor Shaggy??? Amy is DEAD ringer for Scooby...
by sam jacksons wig
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Kind of want to see a Mystery Machine paint job on the tardis now.
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June 3, 2011, 8:47 a.m. CST
Sam -- a hoot and I think it might happen (spoiler speculation too)
by HornOrSilk
And Rory somehow is involved with a "big mistake." What if he doesn't know of the alliance and he does something because of it, leading to the Doctor's fall? And what if this is why River would take on Rory (if she does)? I also think something happens to the Doctor so that River has control of the TARDIS at the end. It seems somehow time is being changed big time all around them. And so the Doctor has been sent to Hitler, who has him imprisoned. This is why they go after Hitler... But more importantly.. I am thinking... with monks and changing of time... someone else who might be involved... classic Who... The Meddling Monk.
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(Sort of spoiler-ish hints) You're right, it is out of character for the Doctor. But Matt Smith's Doctor isn't exactly the Doctor. Either by sheer luck - because of Mr. Moffat's use of throwaway lines - or actual planning there are clues are in place going back to "The Eleventh Hour" as to who the current Doctor really is. Not that he isn't the Doctor, because he is even though he isn't. It will make sense. And the two GangerDoctor copies running around the timelines have nothing to do with it. And River Song is a hero, not a villain.
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I'm leaning to the fact she isn't the Doctor's daughter. She is Jack the Ripper.
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Crazy, thanks for the info! I'm looking forward to re-watching season 5 & 6 to see what I've been missing.
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You mean he is really the Doctor Donna?
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June 3, 2011, 8:54 a.m. CST
Jenny, The Doctor's Daughter - might be back. And she might be gay!
by HarryBlackPotter
There's this cute little fox with a sword and wearing victorian 'boyish' clothing and she's called Jenny. And apparantly, she does girls and lizards. Mmmmmm. Lezzy lizards.
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This is what I am thinking! Is she Jenny, regenerated or another character entirely?!?!?
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Is just a birthday trip for River Song I have been led to believe, and this is where the Jack the Ripper time line fits in.
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I think there's a short scene in Victorian London, with a mention of saucy Jack.
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Rory = Shaggy Amy = Daphne Docy-Doctor-Who, Who Are You? We got some work to do now. Docy-Doctor-Who, Where Are You? We need some help from you now.
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The Demons Run asteroid where Madame Korvarian has set up base id called so because "Demons Run..... when a Good Man Goes To War..." (clip is out there courtesy of the BBC.)
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Apparently Jenny is from Victorian England, too. So I heard.
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Karen is her name. We find out at the end of the episode that this is all a fictional story being told... apparently this is all explained in part 2 of part 7 called "Confidential." All the clues are there if you watch it this season; they have been talking to actors in the second half of every episode. It should have been a big clue!
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....apparently she has a Silurian with her, an they have some kind of lesbian tryst. Not sur if this is just bullshit or fact.
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...doesn't she show up at the very end, marking the end of the episode and the clifhanger into the scond half???
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co-incidentally occurrs as Amy gives birth? Yeah. Total co-incidence...
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I imagine this is going to be a colossal TB.
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June 3, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST
Sunday Times says that the ep ends with an "arresting Denoument."
by sam jacksons wig
Seems as if lots of things are pointing to Rivers identity being the last thing in the ep.
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I think we will find ourselves with TWO Rivers in this story. She knows what happens, she was there. Note what she told Rory -- "I" (as in the River Rory is talking to) cannot show up until the end. That is because she knows when she shows up since she saw herself show up from when she was there. I think River Song WILL be there in the battle. But it will be an earlier (for River) version of her. And I'm not talking the baby. But if she is the baby, this could have been called "the three Rivers."
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June 3, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST
seph- book your place now, my friend before we're a 1000 posts in!!!! Hope you're well!!
by sam jacksons wig
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I plan to see X-Men today. But Doctor Who -- that's what I will be talking about.
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June 3, 2011, 9:13 a.m. CST
CBTML- this is our darkest hour- which fingers are faster....? MMMWWWHAHAHAHAHAA
by sam jacksons wig
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We have had some new DocBackers come in this week.
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June 3, 2011, 9:15 a.m. CST
Horn- the ep was orginially going to be called "Rivers Run..."
by sam jacksons wig
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:) Looking at the clips, etc. this week, and stuff in magazine like Dr Who Adventures, I think the Silurians and Sontarans are fighting WITH the Doctor on this occasion; the cliffhanger? I reckon The Doctor brings back the Cybermen from this Universe... I don't think River is the baby - it looks like a boy - so I've no idea where she fits in... oh, well - just a day to go
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June 3, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST
penhapus- the baby is called "Melody..." so, erm......
by sam jacksons wig
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am I the only person who hopes we see the formation of the alliance, and the reason why the doctor is thought to destroy the universe. And would that not clear up a lot of people's (diamondjoe) hang ups with the last series? I also expect there to be a scene that justifies the "ON-LY THE DOC-TOR CAN PI-LOT THE TAR-DIS" line from The Pandorica Opens.
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the River reveal IS right at the end of the episode, and leads in to the next episode title reveal...
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June 3, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST
Horn- new DocBackers as people realise that THIS is what TV is all about and have a chance to join a great chat! Welcome to all of them!
by sam jacksons wig
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stone dalek practically shit himself when discovering who River Song was... and yet the Daleks were unaware that she could pilot the TARDIS just as well (if not better) than the Doctor...
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*wheels on Dusty Bin*
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Welcome to the DocBacks. Yes, Omega has been mentioned. I feel The Meddling Monk is more likely than Omega. After this episode, it appears we will have all kinds of temporal changes going on, which one would expect from the Monk. We also know he likes wars and all. I can see him being behind it all. Though I like Omega, just something inside me says no. I doubt it is the Monk, either, but there is a bit in me which says the Monk. I still think it is possible that the Doctor is the big bad of the season. He is changed in this episode. What...if.. he...gets...cyber-converted?
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June 3, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST
There's a rumour doingte rounds that ep 8 is called.....(slight spoiler)
by sam jacksons wig
..Let's Kill Hitler. I think that this is shite.
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I do think we will see the alliance form; I hope so. But I keep thinking we will learn it was the Doctor all along who made it.
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...who was a Timelord all along. Damn I would see that.
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I don't think it is wrong. I think it is right. We know Nazis are in episode 8, and it seems they have some connection to the Doctor (imprisoned?).
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My fingers will be faster 99% of the time. You've eaten too many jelly babies, buddy. They've made you slower than an Abzorbaloff in a chase scene.
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June 3, 2011, 9:28 a.m. CST
May not be back until after the episode has haired. Some of these post titles make me nervous.
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
Don't want to stumble on a spoiler...
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Just had a quick check here before popping off to the loo (too much information?) and noticed your posting. You're officially the naughtiest man on AICN. I can't say anything other than everyone should go to Lawrence's delightful website (I'll even give you the link - http://beasthouse-lm2.blogspot .com/ - I have it added to my favourites, you should too!) and then come back here and discuss it further. Now *that* should be a Docback discussion in itself. Saying as it's Friday I might even knock off work early to come back and see what your comments are. Prizes may be given out if 'key words' are mentioned here. And by 'key words', I mean words that are always mentioned whenever Lawrence's website is the focus of discussion (disclaimer - no actual prizes will be given out - not even Tardis playsets, so don't even bother haggling for that). Your Docback is like a Class A drug, so very addictive.
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for what is still - at heart - a kid's TV show.
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June 3, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST
Link to an interview with "Dorium" actor Simon Fisher-Becker (contains very mild spoilers)
by sam jacksons wig
http://www.cultbox.co.uk/interviews/exclusives/1153-simon-fisher-becker-doctor-who-interview The most interesting thing is that he is quoted as saying "everythingwill be answered in ep 13, but then new questions will be asked as a cliffhanger to season 7." So, another new story arc, or a continuation of current things? (most actors lie....;)
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Christian Bale is being recruited to play the Meddling Monk who is going on a crusade against light houses... fearing Rutans living in them.
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I mentioned (I think in the River Song thread) that ep 13 is supposed to clear up all the main plot points and start a new plot/storyline. I expect this, too, is true. Actors might lie, but in this case, I do think SM knows he can only go so far with being Silent...
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I'm sorry, I have no respect for him. That's all I will say about him.
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June 3, 2011, 9:34 a.m. CST
penhapus- agreed! It may have been a working title but can't imagine it being a real one.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 3, 2011, 9:36 a.m. CST
CBTML- I have strapped vortex manipulators to each of my fingers so I cn type at superhuman speeds in ALL realities!!!
by sam jacksons wig
Now, where do you want YOUR jelly babies sent?????
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June 3, 2011, 9:38 a.m. CST
Lawrence Miles "Why I could never write for Doctor Who..."...
by sam jacksons wig
...because you're shite. That is all.
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...or only use her "sparingly" depending on the outcome of her story arc. Going into a new Season would be great minus her, Amy and (what is now becoming "unfortunately") Rory. By that stage I suspect we'll all be needing something new..... the old, borrowed and blue can go to hell.
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..... fuck you, MOFF!!!! Fuck you! Get off my fucking set! Getting in Karens way, blocking her shot...... fuck you! Fire this asshole!"
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put_him_in_the_curry - Dear gods don't listen to me - I don't know what I'm babbling about plus I tend to be wrong. I'm just basing my guesses on the following: An unexplained (as far as I know) line from "The Eleventh Hour" where the Doctor grabs his chest in pain and says "This is too soon. I'm not ready. I'm not done yet." from which I inferred that he froze or stopped his regeneration before he was finished cooking so that instead of being Doctor 11.0 he was Doctor 10.5 (or something). I originally thought that it was going to be a way to explain an extra regeneration or give Mr. Moffat a chance to alter the Doctor's personality (same actor/different Doctor). It probably doesn't mean anything, though early on it would have been a neat way to have a story or two involving the Valeyard. The two DoctorGangers are more than likely just bad editing/continuity (or my old eyes). In the first Matt Smith series everything I thought was editing mistakes (other than flipped negatives or whatever the current tech term is with HD cams) turned out to have been done on purpose. Plus I'm counting the melted DoctorGanger who I'm assuming reforms (I was surprised that they showed him melting). I do think - with no evidence, only the fact that the Doctor lies, so by extension do the showrunners - that River Song is simply River Song (unless she is only Amy's child, with no 'involvement' from either Rory or the Doctor) and it is what she does, not who she is, that is the big secret. I think she has to do something that seems incredibly evil for a very good reason. Of course, I also think that the Doctor is playing a long con with her, and has known all her secret all along, But, again, what do I know. hornorsilk God I hope not (though I like the 'Donna' character) - I was thinking more like the Valeyard.
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Sorry, all, for my notable abscence. As is typical with the black cloud that lives over my head I've spent mostly every waking hour (when not at work) at our local hospital. My 19 month old nephew - he's a triplet, by the way - had a bit of an accident and fractured his femur. (He'll be fine... wee ones are resiliant) And all this happens as my sis is about to move into a new house. Chaos ensues! So between helping look after babies andworking and helping move etc... would you believe I JUST watched 'The Almost People' two nights ago? So I'll do my best over the weekend to stay current. This cliffhanger is NOT to be postponed! I need some 'Me Time' and my nephew and I are super stoked for this episode! So V'Shael, Shibs, Frozen, CBTML, Moffatbabies and the rest of the crew. I shall return! P.S. Anyone have a REAL TARDIS so I can go back on my own timeline and stop all this bullshit from happening?! LOL
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June 3, 2011, 9:47 a.m. CST
Pogue- where the FUCK have you been?????? Good to hear from you!!!! Welcome back!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 3, 2011, 9:49 a.m. CST
Pogue- just read your post so now I know.... hope everything turns out okay!!
by sam jacksons wig
Stay safe!
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... why doesn't River have a sonic screwdriver yet (or does she and I've just missed it)?
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THANK YOU for turning this DOCBACK into one of the hands down coolest features on AICN! As a dyed in the wool Whovian I - and MANY others - appreciate this awesome forum to discuss our favourite show. Our weekly Who viewing parties has grown into a grand evening - from 13 year olds to 40 year olds - all sitting and enjoying the show together... sometimes up to 8 or 9 of us. Cold beers in hands (those of us old enough) and a great group to gasp and have fun with. Someone above said 'this is what TV is all about'. I concur. There's NOTHING on the air that does this to me and my friends like Doctor Who. And to think... but a few years ago (and months, in some cases) some of the gang had barely heard of the good Doctor!
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*****that River Song is simply River Song (unless she is only Amy's child, with no 'involvement' from either Rory or the Doctor)****** Rory is seen talking to River, trying to recruit her for the battle, and saying "They have kidnapped Am and our baBY..." An admission of parentage, or just Rorys good natured assumption???
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that's one of things... plus we know she's not going to die, unless that's the big thing that happens and knocks everything else askew...
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I missed coming in here and chattin 'er up with some of the most fun people I've found on the web! Thanks for the kind words... we'll soldier on... it's what my family does. On an unrelated (sorta) note... tickets for FAN EXPO in Toronto go on sale July 1st (Fan Expo is Canada's answer to san Diego Comic Con. Any of my fellow Canadian Docbackers planningo n attending?!
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I'm going to download the new episode as soon as it's available and watch it. I'm not waiting a week. That being said I'm still, likely, to rewatch the episode next week the same way I'm likely to rewatch the Almost People tomorrow night.
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That's some terrible typing skills (See Above Post)
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June 3, 2011, 10 a.m. CST
Horn- fucking hell, I may have just stumbled onto something that proves part of your theory correct...(speculative spoiler)
by sam jacksons wig
Rory sans Roman Outfit. Says it was "The Doctors Idea" presumably to wear it while he and the Doc go recruiting. So, recruiting who exactly? Remember the pic of Rory infront of the Cybermen wearing the Roman outfit? What if you are correct,and he IS recruiting them to fight? I mean, most of us are expecting them to return and kick the Docs arse, but Moff is just cagey enough to turn us on our heads, laugh and scream "Fuck you!" I am not counting that out now. Can't wait to find out.
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June 3, 2011, 10:02 a.m. CST
Pogue- it's the contents mate, not the typing! And you're very welcome!
by sam jacksons wig
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I think there is a good chance we will see it happen this way. The pictures with him next to the Sontaran have been the ones which made me think this as a possibility. The whole alliance needs more explanation, and the Doctor being behind it all would be one master-stroke.
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Ok I remember that line from 11th Hour, I always thought it was just him worrying about the current situation while the regeneration was still taking place...kind of like "damnit why now, I'm not up to strength yet" more or less. Regardless, it will be interesting to see how it plays out, because well if the Doctor wasn't *completely* the doctor that would make for a really epic cliffhanger.
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June 3, 2011, 10:12 a.m. CST
Horn- so, does this potentially mean..... (theoretical spoilers)
by sam jacksons wig
....that the Doc got himself put into the Pandorica deliberately by an alliance that HE created, or that they simply turned on him because of the Universe thing et.c et.c After all, we both know that events from this season preceed events from last.....
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as I said about a dozen posts earlier, I reckon the Doctor will bring back this universe's Cybermen; that's the 'wtf' moment...
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that would explain the throwaway line from the first season when Christopher Eccleston sees the Cyberhead in the case...
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June 3, 2011, 10:25 a.m. CST
penhapus - Don't really think that the Eccleson line has much to do with this potential story....(spoiler)
by sam jacksons wig
...but there were rumours a while ago that we would see 2 kinds of cybermen and that they would (maybe) clash. I took it with a piece of salt. Now I am not so sure. I do however know that the Cybermen are back for ep 13.
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I want old school bloke in a silver diving suit Cybermen versus C3P0 with handles Cybermen.
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.Mark Gattiss back infront of the camera for ep 13. Don't think he'll be playing Lazarus, however.
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press the POST YOUR TALKBACK button then the page would refresh, and my entry would vanish. It happens occasionally, and not just to me. I've heard other talkbackers mention this. Chalked it up to the sites teething problems, ever since the so-called upgrade.
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I am thinking the whole Pandorica itself was the Doctor's plan --that he has been playing chess with an unseen opponent and he had to do a bluff.
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The only reason - and my reasoning tends not to be very good/I may be misinterpreting the scene - I say that River, if she is Amy's child, isn't Rory's is because I thought she was kind of flirting with him in "Day of the Moon" (when Rory asks River what kind of doctor she is and she answers "Archaeology" then "Lover, too").
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While you guys are waiting for tomorrows episode here's a fan made Anime: http://youtu.be/ePtj3z8rSq4
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Thanks for the link, that's amazing for a fan made production!
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not really, I just like saying that!
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... (the blue Kasper Gutman-type character) yell to the monks in the above clip? Is the line "God help us if you've made HIM angry!" or "God help us if you've made THEM angry!"? I've replayed it a few times, from a couple of different sites, but everyone here thinks he says "...made THEM angry!" which doesn't make sense (unless he is talking about multiple Doctors). What does he actually say? Thanks.
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I heard "them" too, which is weird because before hand he's talking about a singular doctor....strange.
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Don't you know who that is? It's the Valeyard. You don't want to piss him off. You would do better pissing off Omega -- all he can do is flick you off with his hand. Rassilon, too, is a better choice; he will just give you a beating by his rod. --- They cut that down to "him."
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June 3, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST
Right, I'm preparing for this by watching just 8 episodes....
by Seph_J
First I'm stocking up on Toblerone, and then, at around 10am I'm watching Silence in the Library, followed by Forrest of the Dead, Time of Angels, Flesh and Stone, The Pandorica Opens, The Big Bang, The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon. Which should take me up to around 6pm ish. Just in time to have my game, well and truly changed. Magnificent.
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If all these enemies aren't scared of The Doctor. They're scared of The Valeyard, and he's active.
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...while his opinions are questionable, his Doctor Who criticism is pretty entertaining to read and his knowledge is encyclopedic. And he was one of the guys keeping the show alive during the Dark Times after the TV movie. He's just a professional hater, kinda like a Perez Hilton for Whovians (is it still okay to use that word?) And a classic DocBack every week during the break? Fucking awesome. I've been reading Ain't It Cool almost daily for 14 years this summer and this is the first time I've ever been inspired to regularly post. Also, I'm with the thinking that River isn't connected to Amy and Rory in any weird way and I'm looking forward to the surprise of what she's actually going to do. The little girl is probably their kid and the regeneration capabilites are probably the "Time Head" that is the result of being conceived in the TARDIS. Just to get myself in the mood I've been watching YouTube clips of some of the great moments - (River's speech at the end of Forest of the Dead, the Doctor's "Never ever put me in a trap" and his come-get-some Pandorica speech, plus rewatching Day of the Moon.) I just think it's awesome that they took the time to build a story over a couple of years and now they're giving us some answers and are taking the time to do something different. One thing I loved about the old show was that while some of the stories were drawn out way too much, having long stories gave us a chance to live in the world for a little longer. I feel like River, "Silence Will Fall", the eyepatch midwife, and the cracks in the universe are all making this particular Doctor Who feel nice and lived in. And the mid-series break is going to be torture, but if it means we get more big story-changing events and less "filler" episodes that are fun but aren't as consequential, I'm down with it.
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"Spoilers, Sweety!"
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I've noticed a lot of you mention The Valeyard in reference to the Dream Master....is that the ongoing assumption that this is how The Valeyard was created? (Sorry if this is old hat to any docback vets, but I'm new to the whole docback thing, and want to get caught up!)
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June 3, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST
Seph- just rewatched TIA and DOTM again just to get prepared and juiced up.
by sam jacksons wig
Oh and I've ate 12 toblerones, drank 17 bottles of Chardonay and threw up on the cat......
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Trailers often give away far too much detail - these little outside-the-episode extra scenes are absolutely fantastic for setting mood.
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June 3, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST
Ok, who is this Lawrence guy, and who cares if he can't write?
by Perigee
Some dink who writes fan fiction, albeit published, and put together an episode guide? Some guy named Rob Durfee apparently wrote one for Star Trek, but whatever might drool from his lips would not neccessarily impress me. Any gimp can watch a crapload of television and then write about what they saw. And, after grinding enough detritus off of somebody else's rock, they can pretend to own enough of it themselves to complain about it. Opinions - you know what they're like. And his is roughly the same size as everybody else's here.
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Or have we all forgotten about that?
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Wow! If the Pandorica event was all of the Docs doing then "DAMN!!!" There does appear to be recurring themes though; Winston Churchill back (why, if not to tie 5 to 6?) The Alliance..... .....jesus, I am salivating at the prospect and now will be completely gutted if it does not pan out his way! Mr Silk- I believe we both want this to happen, sir...
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The Valeyard is described as an aspect of the Doctor from between his twelfth and final incarnations. In the "The Trial of a Time Lord", the Time Lords appoint the Valeyard as prosecutor at the Sixth Doctor's trial, hoping to have him executed - thereby removing the sole witness to their near-destruction of life on Earth. The Valeyard is what can be described as the anti-doctor. There are alot of us wishing that he would return.
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June 3, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST
christopher_chance - no we haven't forgotten, and don't assume, mate.
by sam jacksons wig
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I remember "The Trial of a Time Lord", I was just curious as his actual origins are never explained (at least to my (knowledge).
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Why on Earth would you assume that. This 'Nightmare child' thing is just some throwaway creation of the Time War that sounds cool ...
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...unless it particularly likes eating spaceships.... (particularly Davros' command ship)
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Leaked footage of the Nightmare Child defeating the Supreme Dalek!! Man I love the retro 60s look to this footage!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G5U_7utMDA
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calling it
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June 3, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST
Thanks seph- I was being kind (again...). No, it's not the nightmare child.
by sam jacksons wig
Alas, that and others are locked in the time war. Rassilon nearly brought them all back, but...didn't happen.
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Toblerone + TIA/DotM = Pure bliss. Has anyone else fallen in love with the last 10 minutes of DotM like I have? The massacre of the Silents is just so giddy!
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Other than a cryptic hint (see below), the origins of the Valeyard are unknown. According to the Master, the Valeyard was the personification of all that was evil within the Doctor, estimated to have been taken from somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations. "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration.", perhaps the essence of the Doctor's negative emotion from that time. This is from The Ultimate Foe. We all thought initially that Toby Jones last season was the Valeyard due to all of the negativity and the Doc intimating that he "hated himself more than anyone else" And that little nod to the fans with the reflection left everything open.....classic.
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Thanks for the info, 'tis much appreciated!
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June 3, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST
seph- yes! And the music is awesome! Love it!!!! Revisiting this series...
by sam jacksons wig
.....which I have erm, aquired from a friend I a finding it just fantastic! Just the right shades of dark and light, with Canton being one of my faves! More of him please!!!!
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It's just too weird flirting and kissing yourself. She can't be his daughter either. My theory is the baddies tried to create a timelord using Amy because she lived with the time crack and rode around in the Tardis. She really is a child of time.
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June 3, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST
Sam jackson's wig - that's not quite correct (also for put him in the curry)
by DoctorTom
They didn't say "somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration". They said between your twelfth (though it may have said elventh) and FINAL regeneration. <br> <br> The "final" part was key. Originally people were thinking that the Valeyard might have been a projection of the Doctor's baser instincts, in a manner similar to the Tom Baker Doctor having projected the Watcher before turning into Peter Davison, or how the Doctor's mentor projected himself as Cho-je in Planet of the Spiders. <br> <br> Since the new series, we realized we didn't know how many regenerations the Doctor might actually have left, given the Time War. When he gave the flip answer in The Sarah Jane adventures, it meant that any of the regenerations after the 12th could be the Valeyard. <br> <br> curry, people are associating the Valeyard with the Master because the Valeyard was supposed to be the distillation of all the negative impulses of the Doctor, and the Dream Lord is essentially that to start with, just needing a little more time and regenerations to cook into a full-fledged Valeyard. <br> <br> Of course, we still don't know, given the benefit of looking back from what we know know, if the Valeyard was merely trying to work some wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey thing to subvert the time war or at least change some aspects of it (perhaps getting better people on the high council so that they didn't just follow Rassilon's lead into wanting to destroy the universe when they ascended). Of course, since it was JNT and Eric Saward handling the timey wimey hijinks instead of Moffat, this attempt was apparently a complete failure. (Do not try this at home - leave it to the experts!)
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so, what do *you* think of him? <br> <br> I liked the novels he wrote for the 8th Doctor line, and found Dead Romance incredible. When River Song started talking about how valuable a Time Lord's body, even a dead one, is I thought back to Alien Bodies where there was an auction for the Doctor's dead body. I'd also like to see the TV series use the idea of Sabbath or someone like him as the post-Time Lord era version of who is going to take care of the timeline (though now he could probably be pitched as initially being a Torchwood agent). <br> <br> From what I've seen in conversations that he's had and some of his posting, he does seem to be a bitter man who doesn't play well with others. To me that doesn't take away from the books he's written, you just have to separate the man from his work.
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It's made to look like Dorium is obvisously referring to Amy's child that it makes me wonder if it's actually Jenny that's being referred to. Even if not a baby, she could still be referred to as the Doctor's child.
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June 3, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST
doctortom - see my second sentence in my last post to "curry".....
by sam jacksons wig
....and the other words are that of the Master from Doctor Who- The Ultimate Foe, not mine. And you are correct- amateurs should leave the timey-wimey stuff well alone. The behind the scenes battles between Saward and John Nathan Turner didn't help much.
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just thinking out loud...and then moffat and smith and all ride off into the sunset after three years .....
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June 3, 2011, 2:17 p.m. CST
The "child" could be the one who regenerated in TIA, not necessarily Jenny....
by sam jacksons wig
....either that or the Baby from Amy, athough that does not seem plausible as it's already being born into captivity.
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I've often thought that too (about the trilogy), since next season is the anniversary and all that. That would make for an interesting arc with this being the middle, ending with a possible Matt Smith Regen in season 7.
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June 3, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST
Larsson- yeah, I get what you mean. Normlly the hype can't live up to the expectation.....
by sam jacksons wig
...however this is WHO, and I'll bet we are left with a mother of a cliffhanger. My only concern is Moff just pinning his hopes on that one thing. But I can't see that happening.
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I know that expectations are high, but hyping it up really is half the fun. How often do we not only get to speculate about a show blowing our minds, but our FAVORITE show blowing our minds?
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June 3, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST
Smith has signed on for one more year. After that it's anyones guess.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 3, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST
sjw - I agree the "child" is most likely the one that regenerated in TIA, but
by DoctorTom
there's always a chance (even if small) that the kid we saw regenerating is Jenny. <br> <br> Or *a* Jenny. I wouldn't put it past Moffat to wrongfoot us by having a leak about "Jenny" and we find out later that Jenny is what Amy names the baby, but it isn't the same Jenny as we saw with Tennant.
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June 3, 2011, 3:07 p.m. CST
Goodnight DocBackers! Talk to you all tomorrow. Enjoy your chat and stay safe. Oh, and we're ahead of XMen already, Horn!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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I don't think you guys should be anywhere as freaked about the mid-season break as you should be about the actual season finale in the Fall, which they just finished shooting. If you really wanna flip your lid and maybe spoil things a bit, scope its IMDb page and see who all's appearing in it. It's a doozy.</p><p> Oh, and River Song is either the TARDIS (remember, she's been claiming to be the "Doctor's Wife" since "Forest Of The Dead") or the final incarnation of the Doctor, which would explain her knowing his real name, why he gave her a sonic screwdriver, why she's traveling backwards through time, why everything she knows is a "spoiler", how she knows how to operate the TARDIS and, pretty much augments the guest star list for the above-mentioned season finale. She actually wouldn't be the first female Doctor, since Joanna "AbFab" Lumley portrayed a female incarnation in the "Curse Of The Fatal Death" Comic Relief short Moffat wrote years ago. It's gotta be one or the other, but my smart money's on the latter.
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I think it would be a good way to explain it all and it would be a big, shocking reveal. It could even work. There just is so much which does not make sense, to date, with the alliance. I mean the Daleks I would believe would look for something all on their own -- just find a new universe, for example -- and so something really twisted has to be about the creation of the alliance. And River knew.
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I have always felt we really do not know who he is. The Master could very well be mistaken. Before the new series, I had an idea for a Doctor vs Valeyard story in which Omega returned. In it, the Doctor (7th) is being out manipulated by the Valeyard (the Doctor doesn't even know his other self is there for half the story), while thinking Omega is the one who was causing the problem. Omega, however, is saying he has become sane again -- his contact with the 5th Doctor brought his brain back from the brink of insanity which was the result of being in the other universe. In it, the real motives of the Valeyard was going to be explored (which had to deal with manipulation of time, gaining control of the Matrix, etc) while Omega would die a hero's death saving the life of the Doctor. The Doctor would be able to once again have Omega as his hero....
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Was something I had circa 1990.
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June 3, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST
So they're stealing Amy's baby right out of time/existence?
by tangcameo
Which would explain the flip-flopping readings. Maybe she really HAS given birth to a Time Head!
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June 3, 2011, 3:24 p.m. CST
And it's something I plan to use for a non-Doctor Who sci-fi PKDish story
by HornOrSilk
So much of it is changed, but the idea of someone facing their future self and being manipulated by that future self is key to my story idea.
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So don't kick me out!
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My fear is that we will sit back and think 'ok, is that it?" The episode itself looks like a classic RTD 'pack as many characters in as possible' finale which surprises me because RTD is long gone and I thought we had seen the last of this type of overkill. Hopefully it will work and hopefully the big moments will reward the incredible followers this show has but competing with the imagination is a big ask.
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At the end we finally see the baby and it has the head of Matt Smith... Nah only kidding. I just hope we're heading for a Lost "we have to go back" twist rather than a Bobby Ewing in the shower ending! F
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Was it would end up with a civil war destroying Time Lord society.... ok, so I was a young fan with a fanwank script idea.. but.. I did have some good ideas with it which will work for my novel (once I get to it).
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Digital spy gives a redacted quote from the episode that goes a little something like this (RUN DMC STYLEE) "******* ******* is a geography teacher ****** ******* is a superhero." I would like to think that it could be, "The Doctor is the geography teacher River Song is a superhero." The Doc does look like a geography (or Chemistry) teacher in that Tweed jacket (Tweed by the way is worked by being soaked in Urea, or piss to you) and this could be a sign that River is indeed, maybe not THE Doctor but an aspect of him, like the Valeyard is the bad aspect. Either that or it is just a throwaway line that doesn't have anything to do with the story arc. F
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I'm pretty sure it is Dorium who will be the superhero....
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For some reason, Burton's "Batman" has been much on my mind this week. Specifically, the whole "chemicals from this mixed with chemicals from that create Smilex." And now we have this whole Baby thing. Apparently, Amy is something special because of her connection to The Crack. And then wandering around on the Tardis... that's a doozy of a midochlorian-esque, pin-the-tachometer baby brew weirdness as a possibility. so yeah - maybe "Time Head" is the throwaway line. Another thing... "Wizards in fairy tales always turn out to be him..." Like Merlin. Of course, in the legend it's Merlin that's living backwards. Instead of Viviane. You know - Merlin fell in love with her, taught him all he knew, then she locked him in a crypt forever..? Better known perhaps as The Lady of The Lake? These water sign women...
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Currently the official Doctor Who website http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw features River's voice reciting the following poem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4oEukxP2Uc Here's a transcript: "Demons run when a good man goes to war. Night will fall and drown the sun when a good man goes to war. Friendship dies and true loves lies; night will fall and dark will rise when a good man goes to war."
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"night will fall and THE dark will rise...."
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June 3, 2011, 4:23 p.m. CST
Oh BBC, why are you dividing us from our British brothers and sisters?
by Doctor_Strangepork
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"River Song is either the TARDIS ... or the final incarnation of the Doctor" Then why would she claim she first met the Doctor when she was a little girl, and that this meeting was in her past but his future? That doesn't match either theory.
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Agreed, River being either the Doctor or the TARDIS does not jive. I think she's just going to end up being Amy's daughter, not Rory's or the Doctor's though. It's going to be a time related immaculate conception of some sorts. Odd to wonder if the baby will be in the later episodes on their adventures, or if something happens to it (taken away?) The latter seeming more likely.
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I've often contemplated a two part story concerning them. As we know from Doctor #4, The Rutans are locked in an eternal conflict with the Sontarans. What if the Doctor answers a distress signal only to discover it has emanated from the last Rutan battleship in existence? And the Rutans on board wish asylum from the Shadow Proclamation people? Of course, they would be actively hunted by Sontarans. This could be awesome, assuming any of the minds behind Doctor Who are reading this, I don't want any credit Just title the episodes 'Lost Little Rutans' and 'The Clenching Fist'...
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a) we have good reason to think River is Amy's daughter. (basically, leaked dialogue, plus the name "Melody.") b) we have good reason to think the little girl who was regenerating at the end of episode 2 is Amy's daughter. (namely the orphanage pics) c) but we have good reason to doubt that River is the little girl who was regenerating. (even if Moffat was lying when he told us that "River is 100% human," her being a Time Lord just feels wrong ....) So one of these must be wrong. There's also the question of whether Samurai Jenny = "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny, and if so, where she fits in the mix. The fact that Samurai Jenny is currently one of the four main faces at the top of the BBC website along with Amy, Rory, and the Doctor makes me think she must be important.
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I don't think that girl with the kitana is Jenny, I strongly suspect that's the young River Song...
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And it's not true. But would be a funny twist.
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Do we even know if this is the case? If memory serves the Dr thinks shes dead? ... Does this episode have time to reintroduce her to the Doc and explain her new look and what shes been doing ...
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That would make the kiss at the end of Day of the Moon (with the knowledge that there's more kissing in the future) even creepier in several ways than if it turned out River was his daughter. Going back in time just to kiss yourself? If the Doctor was going to kiss him/herself like that, we'd have probably seen the Doctor and the DoppelDoctor kissing in The Almost People.
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"I don't think that girl with the kitana is Jenny" I don't know whether she's "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny, but she's deifinitely *some* Jenny. I mean, the official site lists her name as Jenny. I do agree that the episode seems a bit cramped to reintroduce "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny here.
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Why would it be so traumatic for you to meet a past incarnation of yourself who didn't recognise you?
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{empty set}
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Rumors of Paul McGann's return keep flying, and I mostly dismiss them. But I do wonder why he looms so large on this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/index.shtml
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She doesn't have nine arms. And NEITHER DOES THE DOCTOR!
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that's nonsense; the Doctor has a _____ and River doesn't. She has Dalek bumps, but the Doctor doesn't.
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'...a bitter man who doesn't play well with others.' That would have won you a Tardis playset if there was one available to win. And that's all I'm permitted to say on that matter.
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For those in the know, you will know.
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GROVER SIN. Yup, furry lovable Grover did something wrong, and River is the result. She's half-muppet!!!
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Why not? Because they kiss (a lot)? Who else would the Doctor love more than himself? If you stop and think about it, it makes a lot of sense, but so do several other theories. My smart money is on River being the Doctor. That don't make it so. Let's face it, until we actually SEE the episode tomorrow, we won't know anything for sure, except that 98 percent of us are dead wrong.</p><p> Oh, and while the IMDb makes more mistakes than a hedge fund company doing their part to balance the economy, that Episode 13 cast list is actually THE cast list. There's also a rumor regarding a former companion making a cameo that they're keeping completely under wraps (rather like what they're doing regarding who River Song is now)
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June 3, 2011, 6:47 p.m. CST
SPOILER ALERT! Someone has "full-on boy-sex" in this episode!
by MrMysteryGuest
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not that I'm, err....counting....
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Not having seen the next two episodes after "The Rebel Flesh"... is it possible the mysterious little girl with Time Lord powers is the daughter of River and the Doctor? Or that the child is the Doctor himself?
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June 3, 2011, 8:13 p.m. CST
" "A Good Man Goes To War'" isn't about "What the fuck!?" moments. It is, instead, a tour of...and a refresher course in...the heart and soul of recent DOCTOR WHO"
by GINGE_MUPPET
Sounds like the opposite of what people are generally expecting ...
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...and that will, no doubt, come at the end. And will be THE REVEAL of Professor River Song's identity.
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Thank you both very much.
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You're quite welcome. Loving all of this.
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Almost certainly a by-product of our site's "teething problems." Even though our new tech structure & admin fields have been in place for close to six months now, we're still discovering oddness and glitches every day and we're still feeling our way around the new system. I'll zing our tech folks about that disappearing TB issue, though & see if we can't get it sorted out. Thanks for bearing with us.
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I love you.
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June 3, 2011, 10:48 p.m. CST
and I'm not even making those apologies and conditionals
by MoffatBabies
that men make after they confess love to one another. I just love ya, man.
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June 3, 2011, 11:04 p.m. CST
I was just discussing Who (and DockBack) with a very old
by MoffatBabies
friend of mine. We go way back. We made super 8 films together in high school, watched various films together multiple times (Excalibur, Raiders, ROTJ, anything De Palma... hundreds of films) and have a massive, storied history together. He loves old Who but STILL has not given the more current series' a chance beyond a single viewing of an episode from the Eccleston series. He was CONVINCED that the show had abandoned the history of the established universe and even now gets a "re-make" feel from it. I have tried to explain how far off the mark this is, but he's become stubborn about it for some reason. Maybe it's just not for him, but I get the feeling that if hooked just the right way... he'll be a fan for life. I've got to find a way to get him into the fold, and I have recommended the common favorites to start with(Blink, The Girl in the Fireplace, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead)... obvious choices. But I want a list of the most mythology-rich episodes, with call-backs and references to the past. I could probably come up with a decent list myself, but I figured the collective brains here would serve me much better. Help BE my brain... and bring this lost soul back into the fold. He truly does not know what he is missing. Do you have a list of what you would believe to be the most past-mythology-rich episodes? Maybe a short list of your 3 best choices? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can take care of getting the episodes to him by loaning him the DVDs.
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Well, one is easy enough - with a kick hard enough to jump start him: The Pandorica Opens. 1) Everybody's there. 2) Smith's "Let someone else go first." speech. 3) The most dangerous warrior in the universe revealed to be the doctor. 4) Who the hell is that feisty old broad with the firearm, and why is she calling The Doctor "My Love...?" 4b) Why is a Van Gogh painting given to Winston Churchill, who calls the feisty old broad to steal it from some kind of future British Queen and it has the TARDIS Blowing up? 5) Dead/undead auton Rory killing the companion. 6) And then, the universe blows up. If you want an episode that has it all, there it is. Of course, he'd eventually need to do some back engineering to approach or understand pt.2, pt. 1 is standalone enough to pique anyones' interest. And, honestly, if that isn't the one, none of them are.
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-School Reunion - obviously. - The Sontaran Stratagem - not particularly great, but fits your criteria. - Turn Left - not really mythology rich, but has a very old-school flavor. -Time Crash Special - that might charm and amuse your friend. -Eleventh Hour - Again, not so much mythology rich, but it's a great start that might do the trick anyway.
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The Doctor - that wouldn't make any sense at all. Amy - because otherwise she'd know what Amy's house looks like inside. Rory - because she's just not, okay? Captain Jack Harkness or The Master - because even RTD wouldn't make the Doc that gay. Rose - because enough with fucking Rose already. Jenny, the Doc's daughter - because ick. Jenny, the Ganger - because, really, ick. Madame Kevorkian - because River is certainly a good egg and the Madame certainly ain't. The girl who regenerates - because the Doc and the Moff both said she's 100% human. Of course the Doc lies but the Moff, AFAIK, doesn't. Donna - because enough with fucking Donna too. Plus remember River saying "Doctor I don't know why I let you out". She's got to be a TARDIS ganger constructed out of the flesh left over when Gamy splooshed. As for that business about how she's known the Doc since she was a little girl - well, how old was she when he stole her?
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June 3, 2011, 11:51 p.m. CST
Whoops, forgot to say, if you haven't seen Ep 6, SPOILER!
by veteran_of_mu
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...Tennant episodes, Human nature and The Family of Blood. Thats the episodes where the Doctor loses his memory. Theres his diary he keeps that shows the past Doctors. VERY cool episodes! BTW, get my email?
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And I'm gonna see the finale Saturday night dammnit!
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What, no Dalek love? Just a plunger? FAIL.
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The last two episodes show that who ever the eye patch lady is, she knows how to make the "gangers," which obviously looks just like Sontarian tech (as did the ganger's protective suits for that matter). I think they'll definitely involved somehow. Who is River? The mother of all Sontarians!! Ha... no, I don't know. Well... this is the last DW for awhile, and I'm watching it tomorrow. And after that. I guess I'll just have to survive on Torchwood. God help me.
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June 4, 2011, 1:14 a.m. CST
I wonder how many more episodes we'll get of Amy, Rory and River?
by Jawsh Murdock
It sounds like the actors that play Rory and Amy won't be in the show after this season, and keeping River for much longer would be a bit odd in my opinion. Having new companions for this doctor would interesting, IMO. He's sort of been defined by his relationship to Amy so far. I'd like to see him get away from her and see what kind of man he is with a completely different companion. Heck, bring back K9 and Romana!
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That stuff belongs on crappy fanwank youtube videos, where fucktards can claim they have exclusive spoilers for the upcoming season. Then list it as a "rumour". Invariably, if I come across such a video, I'll comment : "It's not a rumour. It's you, wanking into a gymsock." And that never goes over well.
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Just do the math: 1. K9 is a companion of Sarah Jane. 2. Rani Chandra is a companion of Sarah Jane. 3. River Song = the Rani. 4. Therefore: River Song = K9. That, my friends, is called logic.
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Amy's Mum is River.... we never did see her folks... and she was placed to be safe in her Auntie's house in The 11th Hour... Ah well it's no dafter than it could be...
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June 4, 2011, 4:01 a.m. CST
dj- didn't we see Amys folks in "The Big Bang?" Or was I watching something else????
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 4:05 a.m. CST
One thing to remember- no matter what happens tonight we are STILL only half way through and there's alot more to be resolved...
by sam jacksons wig
...so don't get your knickers in a twist if certain plot points are left dangling. I am sure that they will all be revealed in time. (pun intended)
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Or she might have been "out of time" at that point...? Who knows ? I'm just throwing it out there so that I can be inordinately smug if I'm right or never mention it again if I'm wrong !
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However, one could also say, if one wanted to, that Amy "made them up" to replace the folks she never knew? Doubt it, too. But there is always a way
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And Davros is the Doctor's son. Ok, thankfully not.
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June 4, 2011, 4:28 a.m. CST
Okay, here's a thing regarding these forums for those of us adept at personal attacks on posters:
by sam jacksons wig
1) These forums are open to anyone. 2) They are a mechanism for individuals to put forward their thoughts, opinions and also their desires, and are one of the last bastions of free thought I have seen on the net that doesn't throw censorship in your face every 10 seconds. 3) With the exception of trolls, everyone has a right to submit. 4) We should be encouraging new people into the collective (a nod to all of you Trek fans out there ;)) and this DocBack is riddled with them. I LOVE NEW DOC WHO FANS, AND SO DO OTHERS OUT THERE!! It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM gives other (long standing) WHO fans/Posters the right to personally attack others because of what they decide to write regarding the subject matter. What you might consider tosh may be something close to their hearts. (and we can generally tell those who are just taking the piss...) Yes, some of it is not very good, but who are we to stop them? Why not, instead, point them in the right direction and give them the benefit of your knowledge instead of a VERBAL ATTACK littered with expletives? I am sure you will be appreciated more and not looked at like some venomous know it all who only has time for themselves. So, fuck off with the attitude shite! Please play nice with others and show them the respect you wish to be shown yourself.
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June 4, 2011, 4:31 a.m. CST
Horn- the black guardian is captain jack harkness's lover....
by sam jacksons wig
....and the Brain of Morbius is K9's second cousin twice removed. Maybe....
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Though it is cool to have so many DocBacks, we need to select this one to keep up to make sure we stay #1!
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June 4, 2011, 4:33 a.m. CST
dj- but we shall surely mention it again, my good sir!!! ....
by sam jacksons wig
...unless your right and we will suddenly forget the post ever existed ;)
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I keep having some memory jumps after reading posts..
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June 4, 2011, 5:01 a.m. CST
True Story: A Good Man Goes To Extraordinary Lengths To Watch This Episode
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
On Wednesday my computer broke. It wasn't a virus or some sort of system problem. I unintentionally destroyed the thing. If you're wondering why this might be a problem when it comes to today's DOCTOR WHO then I should mention that I don't have a television. When my last television broke, I decided that, as my computer was top of the range and the BBC offers iplayer, I would just use my computer. After all, I don't watch any other British shows. DOCTOR WHO is the only reason I pay my license fee. So, there I am at 10:30pm at night, thinking "Fuck!" Usually I would have probably spent a week trying to decide on what computer to buy as a replacement. Not this fucking week. I got into my office an hour early on Thursday, quickly went through all of my options on Amazon and narrowed it down to those that included a message "Purchase within X hours and choose the Express Delivery option to receive by Friday". A few clicks later and the wait began. Yesterday, my shiny new computer arrived at work. A taxi ride home at 5pm and two hours later, it was set up. THIS is what I've gone through to watch today's episode. It better destroy my brain with its awesomeness or a grown man will weep right here before you.
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June 4, 2011, 5:09 a.m. CST
moffatbabies- show your friend bits of episodes that reference/nod to classic Who....
by sam jacksons wig
... a time consuming task, to be sure, but one that may work. The Master (Jon Simm) offering his wife a jelly baby... ..school reunion with the beautiful Liz Sladen and the ever so annoying to anyone over the age of 5 K9..... ....The opening scenes from The Almost People with clone Doc going through past regenerations...... .... the showdown on the roof between the Doc and the Atraxi from the 1th hour where we get to see each doctor before Matt Smith tears the fucking house down by walking through Tennants face as cool as a mountain of polo mints.... Oh, and there are so many others!!!! Good luck with this lost soul!!!!
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June 4, 2011, 5:09 a.m. CST
moffatbabies- show your friend bits of episodes that reference/nod to classic Who....
by sam jacksons wig
... a time consuming task, to be sure, but one that may work. The Master (Jon Simm) offering his wife a jelly baby... ..school reunion with the beautiful Liz Sladen and the ever so annoying to anyone over the age of 5 K9..... ....The opening scenes from The Almost People with clone Doc going through past regenerations...... .... the showdown on the roof between the Doc and the Atraxi from the 1th hour where we get to see each doctor before Matt Smith tears the fucking house down by walking through Tennants face as cool as a mountain of polo mints.... Oh, and there are so many others!!!! Good luck with this lost soul!!!!
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June 4, 2011, 5:10 a.m. CST
and it should have been 11th hour, I know- my keypad had a brain fart...
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 5:14 a.m. CST
I think River will ask The Doctor a VERY important question at the end of this episode
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
"So Doctor. Horn.... or silk?"
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June 4, 2011, 5:22 a.m. CST
CBTML- 2 hours to set up??? Fuck! I would have been there a fortnight later!!!
by sam jacksons wig
As for televisions, the only room in the house that doesn't have one is the bathroom, and I have seriously considered it I'm telling you!! There is even one in the conservatory so when I'm sitting in there (like now) with my laptop I can have the TV on. But it's a bit different as we have Sky TV with multi-room. As for computers- one in the study, one in each of the kids rooms, a laptop, a notepad and a fucking IPad (wifes, not mine!! I hate them!)- so I will NEVER be far away from watching what the fuck I want!!! Besides, I will one day have fingers SOOOOOOOOO fast that I will be able to type 12 different messages on each computer in the house before you've typed one!! MMMWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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We all know the Doctor was married with a family that died during or before the time war. Couple of things that hit me as slightly interesting: Probably not possible but interesting: What if River Song IS his wife. We know that she is 100% human, but remember that the original Hartnell Era was a grandfather with a human wife and family. So The Doctor taking a human wife is not that outlandish... (just need to figure out if she's changed her appearance or the time war wiped the memory of her looks from the doctor's mind.) Possible and VERY interesting: The Child we see IS his "pre time-war" daughter (after a couple of regenerations how would he recognise her?) and the space-suit was to protect her from the temporal lock on the time war. Now THAT would be a good WTF?!? moment to end this half of the season on....
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River is on screen, looking to the Doctor. Suddenly she changes shape and looks just like... Moffat. "Hello Doctor. I'm the producer. And this is your life."
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June 4, 2011, 5:37 a.m. CST
Big Time --Big Time - Spoilers for the Season -- Don't Look If You Don't Want To Know
by HornOrSilk
Some speculation that Amy is leaving sometime this season comes from this statement: ""I am playing Jean Shrimpton in a BBC4 drama We’ll Take Manhattan but I have just literally gone from Doctor Who to that so I haven’t had a chance to sit and have a think. I actually would really like to go home to Scotland for a little while and reflect on what has happened and then decide what my next move is, but I don’t know what that is yet." HOWEVER It could mean she finally has a break before another season. But I doubt it. I think her story will have been played out.. and we need someone new...
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I wish I was you, buddy. Living in your big multi-television house with your lovely wife. And then I remember how slow your fingers are. And I'm glad that I'm me!
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I haven't watched this since Christmas and forgot how fantastic it is! Funny, tense, romantic, action-packed and filled with great special effects. Ten times better than any of the previous Christmas specials (although I do have a soft spot for The Christmas Invasion, but only because of Ten's introduction in the final third of the episode).
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Possible indication of the Doctor's real relationship with the silence?
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Depends upon what the meaning of is is.
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Possibly! She really does have a fantastic voice. I don't see how they can top this CW special, to be honest. It's just so brilliant. Still, it's Moffat we're talking about and he's always managing to surprise me. I think I might watch SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY next...
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yep, SitL and FotD are the ones to watch today.
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June 4, 2011, 6:51 a.m. CST
CBTML- oh god, don't wish you were me!!! My wife would NEVER forgive you! ;)
by sam jacksons wig
Besides, you are more than welcome to my two brattish gits of kids..... .... and all of the joy the two dirty sods bring!!! I recently found a pair of worn underpants in my eldest daughters room that had been casually thrown in with clean garments. That, and the half eaten sandwich she decide she didn't want at 1 in the morning.....
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...Arthur Darvill is in the middle of something as well, and something that will affect the start date of the next series of Who. So, it looks like they could both go. yup yup yup.....
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....Amy is wiped from existance (as her parents were in series 5) but her child survives, so the doc just takes the child back in time, and drops her off at young Amys house, in place of Amy.... so the child then lives through the time that Amy would have? A life never lived, sort of thing. Would at least be pretty tragic.
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I do think Amy is wearing thin, and unless SM comes up with something new, it is time to move on from her. I think SM knows this, and so I expect this will happen.
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I don't think that will happen; but.. I keep thinking... what if the child turns out to be.. the Doctor himself? But not because the Doctor is Amy's mother... but... rather, the baby somehow gets the regenerations of the Doctor, and so merges with the Doctor to become the Doctor? Thus in the Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor is doing something to make sure the kid knows what will happen...
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Given this whole "no more Amy and Rory rumour- and the rumour of an unannounced guest star in ep 13... Anyone think it might be Carey Mulligan getting into place for the Christmas Special? She has said she'd do Who again...
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so many holes elsewhere, it would kind of be nice if Amy WAS the Doc's mother, and that the Claire Bloom character was Amy in the future... because then at least 'The Woman' who is/is not the Doctor's Mother will be tied up once and for all. I mean.. what WAS that all about??
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*** It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM gives other (long standing) WHO fans/Posters the right to personally attack others because of what they decide to write regarding the subject matter. *** I agree. And if, at any point, any of you feel someone is being unnecessarily or unrepentantly rude just because they can be - please don't hesitate to let me know.
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of the Sarah Jane Adventures? There's a couple of episodes, such as 'Death of the Doctor' which really add to the DW history. Worth checking them out...
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June 4, 2011, 7:43 a.m. CST
Merrick- I thank you, sir. there are certain individuals who are quite abusive and show little respect to others. Glad to know you are also watching.
by sam jacksons wig
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I hope you had the good sense to get yourself a Mac. (Ducks)
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They ruined it after "In Memory Alone." They should have kept the series as "this is the Doctor, but we wont' name him." Ever since I saw "Summoned by Shadows" I always wanted to do a re-edit of the first 6th Doctor story. Have the beginning in the TARDIS then have the Doctor become a hermit as he said he should... and use that to lead in to Summoned by Shadows. Much better than the Twin Twits of Mathematical Incompetency. And In Memory Alone did an excellent Matrix-like take before Dark City andthe Matrix.
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Yeah, the opening is a bit weak, but once you get into it.. worth a watch if you have not seen it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6PbWwtu_o is part 1
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June 4, 2011, 7:49 a.m. CST
Horn- agree about Amy. Her time is almost up. A fresh injection is what we need, and the Amy character has been quite spoiled regarding storylines.
by sam jacksons wig
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The last minute we suddenly see River Song change shape and turns out.. River.. was Kamelion all along.
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You know what I would like for a season? Amy is dead. Rose is dead. Martha is dead. Donna is dead. They get killed off and the Doctor with the Doctor and Rory and Wilf go out to find a way to bring them back to life. It requires all kinds of breach of the rules of time, causing all kinds of complications. In one episode, the Doctor has fooled with the past so much, he becomes.. the 8th Doctor.. all alone... only by the end to fix up the time line. There. That's the 50th anniversary series.
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With the cracks in time... and everything else which has happened to date..
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June 4, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST
Unanswered questions at the end of all things..... (could be spoilers)
by sam jacksons wig
According to another site, the Doc whispers something crucil into the ear of River Song. Nothing is mentioned as to what it is, but they have theorised that River knew of the Doctors death from the Astronaut, and more importantly that this specific event would be a continuance into series 7. "It looks like we’ll have to wait until Series Seven to discover what The Doctor really whispered to River at at some point this Series, and how they use that to bring The Doctor back or stop him being killed by the Astronaut." River is also quoted as to say "That man.....always thinking so far ahead..." So, does this mean MORE River Song in the next series???? Hmmmmmm....
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June 4, 2011, 8:12 a.m. CST
Looks like The Reign of Terror is being completed with animations
by HornOrSilk
http://bigfinish.com/news/The-Reign-of-Terror-Animated-Missing-Episodes
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I expect so. While we might know who she is, I do think we will also find out she DOES have many more adventures with the Doctor. We won't see them all, nor will need to see them all, but I do think we will see more of them as the years go on by. At least as long as the Moff is in charge.
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I would also reveal who and what the Valeyard really was; it is the Doctor - with all his anger- unleashed against the Time Lords for the Time War... however, he will also find a solution and bring back the Time Lords at the end of the season as he saves Donna and himself completes his regeneration...
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That r isn't working all the time it seems...
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Rose is dead. Martha is dead. Donna is dead. Marthas mother is dead. Donnas mother is dead. Everyone has a HUGE cock-er-nee style street party to celebrate. The end. Ah- the bliss!!!!!!
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Hornorsilk: Can a comment about her career really be called a spoiler. Sooner or later, Amy stays home,and with a child, most of us think it will be soon. At least from what I have read. A spoiler in my book is one that takes the story away from you, not the fact that an actor will no longer appear. Really, wasn't showing us the Doctor being killed a spoiler in itself? Knowing where you are going isn't the spoiler, it is telling about how we get there that screws up the story. Am I correct on that one? CBTML: I rewatched Silence in the Library last night and wow, the nods to future episodes are all over the place.
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You mean Davros actually gets off the toilet and tap dances for a change?
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June 4, 2011, 8:26 a.m. CST
Watching "planet of the spiders" as Pertwee gives his swan song... classic stuff!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 9 a.m. CST
My thoughts (spoilerish) about River/Amy's Baby/Girl in the spacesuit
by TheFerretLives
Perhaps River is Amy's baby (could it just be a red herring, a massive whopping red herring, that the baby is being called Melody? Melody Pond? Swap them around and change names to something similar?) and also perhaps she is the little girl in TIA and DOTM but it doesn't mean she is a timelord? Maybe because she was somehow created in an immaculate conception sort of way in the Tardis she needed to be kept in the spaceman suit to protect her until she could survive on her own. To help this happen the Doctor lets her take his regeneration energy (when he is shot by the astronaut in the lake) and when we see the girl regenerate it is the only time she will do it, and become River Song. That would tie in with River killing the best man she ever knew and also tie in with her being 100% human, albeit created in an unusual way. The way the astronaut appeared out of the lake and then disappeared suggests there was a tardis, THE tardis, in its invisible mode. I thought perhaps that it was the Doc in the suit and he was taking his future self's energy to heal himself after the events of this mid-series finale, or the series finale, but it could also be the girl, which is what everyone thought but the mystery was why really. F
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I did see "Death of the Doctor" - which other SJA (DW relevant) episodes would you suggest? Thanks a ton...
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Don't remember how much they contributed to the overall mythos, but Mr. Tennant did appear in the SJA episode (or episodes) "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith", and Nicholas Courtney put in some time as the Brigadier in "Enemy of the Bane". (not sure if that is the information/answers you were looking for)
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this is great (and great fun)!
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There can NEVER be enough Donna. EVER.
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I suspect that the station wagon was the Tardis in camouflage.
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I can't help but think that the Tardis' ability to "cloak" being introduced in this episode was a big hint. F
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on DWC I think they mentioned that it opened differently but they had the afterthought of the car to make it more "American". F
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I believe that the Tardis always had a Chameleon circuit that was supposed to be non-functional. IIRC the Rani's Tardis was always disguised as something else. The bus does drive past and there is no car, then the bus drives away and it is there. That is what leads me to think it was the Tardis.
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The TARDIS ability to be invisible wasn't introduced this season, but we were reminded of it.. The Invasion has it happen to the TARDIS (however, not on purpose, and indeed, the TARDIS needed to be fixed because of it).
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Yes, it can be a spoiler. While we knew she wouldn't be with the Doctor forever, if we know this season is the last for her, it tells us things to expect which some might not want to know. Oh, and as for Silence in the Library.. I'm sure there are twists... which connect to it. I'm almost positive River will be remade via the flesh or something like it through the Library. The Doctor's plan was more than just to "save" her!
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Rose was annoying. Martha was boring. Donna was the bee's knees.
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I agree 100%. Rose for me became better because of the story they built around her, but Donna is certainly heads and shoulders above the new companions (yes, I like her better than Amy too) Donna's father was brilliant too. Aw man I miss those two.
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Do you mean her grandfather, Wilf? Yes, he was great too! He's one of the few reasons I'd ever watch THE END OF TIME.
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thought id quote from a tv guide here in England There are touching scenes when rory meets his child and amy reveals shes named her Melody. "Melody Williams" he says proudly. "Melody williams is a geography teacher - Melody Pond is a superhero" corrects amy Is it just me or anyone else notice the similarities between River song = Melody pond???????
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June 4, 2011, 10:30 a.m. CST
Well thats because Bernard Cribbins is a national treasure...
by V'Shael
Anyone who has yet to see his appearance on Never mind the buzzcocks needs to YouTube it in a hurry.
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Didn't River once say she was in prison for killing "a good man. The best"? After the doctor is killed in "The Impossible Astronaut" she shoots at the back of the girl/astronaut and then says "Of course not". Anyone else think they're setting up to give the doctor a hole new set of regenerations?
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They're always meeting out of order.
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Bah! Grandfather of course.
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June 4, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST
Oh yes! Bernard Cribbins showed more emotion and greater acting skills than most of the cast put together!
by sam jacksons wig
He truly was just wonderful! The one thing I am glad about this season is keeping the extended families out of it, though. Amy and Rory are more than enough...(and as it happens, there might be more branches of the family tree show up rather unexpectedly.) without a couple of mum and dads. I feared we would get the Aunt and the handsome internet porn guy when the 11th hour aired, but thankfully, no. Marthas family- I really couldn't have given 2 shits about that happened to any of them. Donna's mum needed to be killed off inhumanely. I just hated every morsel of her being.
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June 4, 2011, 10:39 a.m. CST
2 hours and 7 minutes until a good man goes to war....will he be the same afterwards????
by sam jacksons wig
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Not to mention I think he had more in common with the doctor than most I think, a youthful wonder at the universe even at an advanced age. Also, Donna's mum did need a good session of murder.
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Oh so that is the geography teacher...superhero quote! So it is confirmed = Melody Pond, which backwards and changed to synonyms is.... F
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If I had to choose one of them, then Catherine Tate had the edge because she was more of a middle aged plain jane- I liked that they went with that and not just with the pretty pretty things. So, she had to back things up with her acting skills. However, none of the new Who companions have really woed the fuck out of me. Rose was too in love with the Doc (especially Tennants- I didn't really feel it with Eccleson, he was more like a jolly mate) and it clouded things a wee bit before finally becoming the storyline. Martha then professed love for the Doc after about 5 minutes. That didn't work either as there was absolutely zero chemistry between her and Tennant (and the powers realised it...). Donna, however was complete bombastic sass; verbal annhililation to whomever foolish enough to engage her in discourse. The DoctorDonna character crushed whatever goodwill she had built up with me. I just hated it.
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About that... Could we license that song from "Scrooge?" "Thank ya very much! Thank ya very much! That's the nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me! It seems a bit bizarre, But things the way they are, I feel like a losing war's been won for me! And if I had a cannon I would fire it Just to add that celebration touch! But since I left my cannon at home, I'll simply have to say, Thank you very very very much!"
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June 4, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST
1 hour and 45 minutes until Demons begin to run....
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST
The scene bewteen Tennant and Cribbins in the End of Time part 2....
by sam jacksons wig
....Wilf is trying to give the Doctor a hand gun. More depth than the Atlantic Ocean... ....I can remember holding my breath through the entire scene. Completely mesmirised, a whole slurry of emotions and feelings crging through me and almost reducing me to tears. Absolutely beautiful thanks to both men. I could have sat there and watched them act for hours.
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June 4, 2011, 11:13 a.m. CST
Oh and the whole Melody Pond- River Song thing is so contrived it just HAS to be true....
by sam jacksons wig
...which I think most of us have known for some time now anyway. I just wish they had a better method for tying it together.
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June 4, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST
Anyone here have the Doctor Who Adventures In Time & Space RPG?
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
I just bought it and it's quite good. Now to debate whether to go and grab a big tub of icecream from the shop before the episode begins....
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June 4, 2011, 11:17 a.m. CST
1 hour and 20 minutes until alliances are forged and gods may fall...
by sam jacksons wig
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If River is Amy's daughter, what would that have meant to Alex when the Moff told her this? I thought he told her when they did Silence in the Library... So, even if this is the case, is it really the BIG shocking reveal? We are all talking about it, so I say, probably not!
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June 4, 2011, 11:19 a.m. CST
"When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it'll never end....
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
....But however hard you try you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever for one moment, ACCEPTS it."
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Haven't seen her around for a while...
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June 4, 2011, 11:28 a.m. CST
Now and then, every once in a very long while, every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair, and the Doctor comes to call... everybody lives."
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST
Most of our US friends are a week behind. However, it is not like her not to join in. Or take the piss. I think that life catches up with all of us from time to time.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 11:31 a.m. CST
CBTML- those quotes just give you the fucking goosebumps, don't they?
by sam jacksons wig
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And remind them to leave the good weather outside, and switch off the footy and the BGT Final, and settle down to watch the best piece of television that they'll see all week. Phooey to Wayne Rooney! Phooey to Simon Cowell! Huzzah to The Doctor! Just over an hour to go until episode 7 (or episode 777 as I insist on calling it to anyone who will listen) and I'm locking the entire family in the house. Let's all find out who River Song really is. Although I must say, was that the question you were *really* asking? Hmmm...
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There's a part of me doesn't want to find out!!! But then I can't bide not being in on the reveal! Aaarghhh!!! F
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June 4, 2011, 11:47 a.m. CST
55 minutes until the Doc falls farther than he ever has...
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 11:51 a.m. CST
man_of_vertue - findin out who River is is not what I really want to know....
by sam jacksons wig
...as I already know. How it all ends and how the Doctor falls is where my interest lies. And I can't fucking wait!!!!!!
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June 4, 2011, 11:52 a.m. CST
I love that a show can reach so many people on so many levels. We are truly blessed, my fellow Doc Backers.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 11:56 a.m. CST
LOL, Sam Jacksons Wig, christian_bale_trashed _my_lights and a slew of other characters...
by Red43jes
ITs awfully hard to find a spot to converse with you two during the docbacks! LOL, not mad about it either, just wish I had something worthwhile to throw in so I could get into the conversation.
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June 4, 2011, noon CST
red43jes - you're in, mate!!! Throw whatever you want out there and don't worry about the rest of us! We'll involve you if you wish it, mate! Welcome along for the ride!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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It's one of my favorite Man_Of_Vertue DW quotes. Erm... I meant Moffat.
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June 4, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST
39 minutes until Rivers run and timelords bleed....
by sam jacksons wig
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I never have anything worthwhile to contribute either but it's never stopped me, buddy!
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Huzzah to The Doctor, indeed!
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June 4, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST
This is the only TB I bother with anymore.
by johndillingers20inchseveredcock
Glad to hear it's going to continue.
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Well, the Slitheen, Sontarans and Judoon crop up at various points through the 4 series, (episode titles invariably give them away), and there are constant references to SJ's time with the Doctor (the little Peladon reference in 'The Temptation of Sarah Jane' makes me smile) and the Trickster (mentioned in DW - particularly in 'Turn Left') is a great and actually creepy-as-fuck recurring villain. K9 becomes a regular too(!) The thing with SJA it's a perfect kids show, but for those who love all things Who, it retains a certain sense of adventure that DW has, and throws in more than enough hints of SJs previous adventures to keep us fans happy. Obviously 'Death of the Doctor' is a proper fangasm, and 'The Wedding Of Sarah Jane Smith' with Doc10 are good to see too. Aside from Death of the Doctor - which actually gives us brand new info about the doc's companions, and about what Doc 10 was getting up to before he regenerated into 11 - the other's don't bring an awful lot of new stuff to DW lore.... BUT they do keep past events at the forefront of the show, which is really, really nice. Thank you RTD ;)
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Really the only thing I can think to say is I suspect a swerve coming soon for all of us. Too easy for all of us to guess that River is Amys daughter, or is it? Second, I'm hoping that River somehow manages to be around for a good while...maybe have different actresses come in and play her for story archs. Qyuite an interesting character for the Doctor, have seen one quite as interesting since Romana (I say that meaning Romana and the Doctor had a unique chemistry-2 time lords). Since Romana, sure, theres been a LOT of sidekicks I've dug, but I always felt that Romana was really the only one as clever as the Doctor.
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June 4, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST
The anticipation is killing me. My fingers are sweating like a fish!
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
...Do fish even HAVE fingers?
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June 4, 2011, 12:09 p.m. CST
Don't know if this has been covered or not...
by johndillingers20inchseveredcock
And I don't know if it's true. I could look it up, but it's more fun to talk about it then look it up in case it turns out to be BS that would have been fun if it weren't BS. But last season there were some Doctor Who video games that were posted for download, and Moffat sounded like they were considered in-continuity. A kid told me a couple of days ago that in the Cybermen game, the Cybus industries Cybermen and the real Cybermen got together. And the Cybermen from this season do appear to be missing the Cybus logo.
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June 4, 2011, 12:11 p.m. CST
Do you know what? If MOV was the Moff I would dress up like Shirley Temple and sing "On the good ship Lollypop" infront of an audience of mass murderers... Hoi! MOV! fESS UP!
by sam jacksons wig
wHO ARE YOU???????
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Come on now, Johndillingers20inchseveredcock (can't believe I just typed that), there's no shame in admitting you played those games. I had a go at the Dalek one. I was shit.
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June 4, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST
Did John Dillinger HAVE 20 inch severed cock? I need to know!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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stories in a row (pheewww!) and damn! aren't they ALL just so good?! It's like Moffat enjoys writing for her so much that it ELEVATES everything about the whole show. One thing we don't seem to be talking about much, is that River Song is an ARCHEOLOGIST. But where? with who? Surely this is important as we go further back to her earlier days...
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..the Cybermen this season DO have the cybus "C" mark on them. There is a rumour that we will see 2 factions of Cybermen. Goody goody!!!!
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June 4, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST
CBTML- more importantly, if your fingers are sweaty it reduces the speed of your typing!! MWWWHAHAHAHAHAHA
by sam jacksons wig
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I encountered a rumor a few years back that after John Dillinger's death, the FBI removed a twenty inch wiener from his corpse and locked it up in a warehouse. I was intrigued enough to look it up, and it turned out to be false. But it seemed like a good enough TB handle. I admit I am a little tired of it.
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Romanadvoratrelundar was a sexy lady, in BOTH versions, but the perfect foil for the Doc? For me, having another time lord as a companion was a bit of a mistake, as a human is much more interesting and have yet to see the things a timelord sees. As for a swerve- yup. Keep watching, mate, and join the discussion afterwards. You wont be disappointed. Welcome to the DocBack. Don't be shy to post anything you want.
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Sounds good to me! Matt Smith said in an interview a few months back that he wanted to see some Troughton era Cybermen on the show. I doubt that would happen, but it would be cool, wouldn't it? We're getting a cybermat!
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That scene with the gun was amazing, and I completely agree that it could of went on much longer than it did, and would have remained just as important as any scene in the new Who series. The Doctor Donna aspect was kind of a weird point with her character, I don't know if I dislike it as much as you did, but it certainly did detract from the work they put into her character leading up to it. I felt the angle was clever, just executed poorly.
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...BUT YOU CAN'T!" BAM
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I did see a photo awhile back where the Cybus logo was definitely removed. I believe there was just a plain circle in its place. I don't know if it was from this week's episode or the second part. Or the logo was just shopped away by some asshole.
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that picture is real, and is on the official BBC DW website
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...you could change it, and become...(deep breath) theartistformerlyknownasjohndillingers20inchseveredcock.
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10 MINUTES
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June 4, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST
10 minutes to go. I am ready. SJW signing off until it is all over..... or just beginning.
by sam jacksons wig
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A fanwank YouTube vid from me? Um no.... That's not me at all.
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Cool. I haven't gone completely mad then.
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June 4, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST
Fellow DocBackers..... enjoy with every fibre of your being. I hope it is everything you want and more.
by sam jacksons wig
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Everyone else.... ENJOY!!!!
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If I did the formerly known thing I'd maybe need some kind of unpronounceable symbol to accompany the name shift.
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June 4, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST
I will have to wait a bit longer than all of you in the UK... so enjoy
by HornOrSilk
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June 4, 2011, 12:36 p.m. CST
jawshco - don't fucking apologise! You DON'T need to! Post what you like mate!!!! He'll get over it.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST
seph- I am now fucking buzzing!! It's time! Enjoy, my friend!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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Blast my North American location. Enjoy the show all!
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Do I have to repeat the question?
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Rory ROCKS!!!! that is all ^_^ opening is great! (sorry for the double post to excited!!)
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Seeking opinions re: what we should call our weekly DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks/Reader Reactions. A few regulars didn't seem to love my adopting the term "Docback" in one of my recent posts...although that seemed and seems a logical name...so what term should we use to identify the weekly post in headlines? Open to anything...
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Well, that wasn't the big WTF moment, but it was what I theorised.
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The US are in for a treat!! %)
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I'm not sure what to say really. Going to need to think about this for a while...
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LET'S KILL HITLER! - LOVE IT.
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June 4, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST
So, it's basically what we figured out (the main idea) and the title was right
by HornOrSilk
As I said, that would be the title.
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Talkback And Relative Discussions In (cyber)space.
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I think we all guessed at that!!!!!!! but it was very good non the less, if a little rushed.
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June 4, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST
Americans should just assume every post that follows from this moment on is a *SPOILER*
by Seph_J
Well... that was, not unexpected. But it does make many things make sense. Not much to say about that really that hasn't already been said in theorising... SO... WHAT ABOUT THE UNDERWATER SKELETON HAND WITH THE SONIC IN???
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for some reason i momentarilly thought it was 2010 so when the 'to be continued 2011' came up at the credits i was like' shit! i have to wait till next fucking year?!' luckilly, my stupidity ended swiftly. Thank Gawd the future is now the present...
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that was pretty fucking awesome. My hat of to thee Moffat.
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June 4, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST
I CAN'T BELIEVE SKELETOR WILL SOON BE IN DOCTOR WHO!
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
That was the meaning behind the trailer at the end, right?
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June 4, 2011, 1:37 p.m. CST
I'm going to need to rethink my "Favorite Eleven Doctor Episodes" list
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
I have a feeling that "The Impossible Astronaut" may pip this one, though. But that's only because I'd seen enough speculation about the River reveal not to be shocked.
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grinning from ear to ear when he thought this one up, likely last season. I bet he couldn't wait for this.
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Sorry but typically all foreplay from Moffatt
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I know some of you probably guessed your way through it all,good for you,but for me it was still a good time.I'm happy for the break myself,we can all enjoy the summer and when Doctor Who returns the football season will be off and running too............Well done to all .............except couldn't we of had original Cybermen coz you know arent't they from Mondas and the new school ones were made in an alternative universe by Trigger.Apart from that........... :>.
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and rushed ...
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June 4, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST
erm..... I am just all over the place here but will try and get a few words down.
by sam jacksons wig
Feeling awesome. Matt Smith was absolutely the very best he has ever been. Arthur DaRVILL was something his character has only hinted at and is all the better for it. Karen Gillan was actually quite remarkable here. And now we know for sure. I need to go and watch this again guys- I am actualy quite emotional .
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Naughty naughty!
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I missed that.
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June 4, 2011, 1:42 p.m. CST
Look what you've done to Sam Jackson's Wig, Moffat!
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
He was a tough guy and you've reduced him to an emotional wreck! I hope you're happy with yourself. That guy has kids, you know.
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Who River really is wasn't too much of a stretch however how it was done was kinda cool for us to find out. Still not sure if the Doctor and her are an item at some point, the Doctor tapping the daughter of two of his best friends isn't his style. The revalation of her being part time lord is going to take me a while to figure out. I'll have to watch it again ASAP when I get home from work. Watching it there and customers had the temerity of wanting to be served whe I'm watching Who. I mean the nerve of these people!!!
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I was expecting some mega huge bombshell at the end due to all the hype but it actually didn't surprise me in the slightest.
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BBC iplayer and the website have gone into meltdown.
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You know my initial reaction was that there was a lot to like about this episode. Loved the Victiorian Silurian and her ass-kicking assistant--- The Green Lizard ?? Dorium as well was good value as well as the Sontaran nurse. Liked the bit with Rory and the Cybermen---thats the way to ask for info. And I loved the premise that the Doctors reputation is whats causing this. Its a bit like he's the top gun-slinger in town so every idiot is out to be better than him. River reveal was no great shock...as soon as we knew the baby's name it was a cert --but it was still well done. Matt Smith was fantastic--particularly when he was angry but also in his delight at the end when he realised who River was. Problems--well did much really happen ? Was the spectacular fall the Doctor realising it was all his fault. Just a feeling that we were oversold this episode and at the end it feels a bit like TIA--incomplete. Still loved it though.
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I was just wondering...how well is Dr Who doing over there since Moffat took over? Does it get credible ratings? Does it match 'american' sci-fi ratings? Until Moffat took over I could never really stand Dr Who (except the Davidson era)
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The bit where the Victorian woman said something like "I don't know what I see in you," followed by the Silurian using her long tongue and then the two staring at one another made me chuckle.
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...but twenty years after they were doing this sort of thing on a regular basis. So River Song is basically a version of Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart who the Doctor doesn't mind fucking despite knowing her as a newborn infant? Yeah... I think Moffat needs to put down the 'Twilight' books and nick his ideas from somewhere with a bit more class, because I just watched a weird hybrid of 'Transit' and 'Breaking Dawn', with the Doctor in the role of the creepy werewolf-pig kid.
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I want to watch something called "let's kill Hitler" right now.. I don't care if it's an empty bag of crisps blowing around in the breeze... Best name for something- ever. Was the other option to call it "inglorious timelords?"
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Until some good citizen uploads this thing.
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..why didn't River seem to know about her younger self making the phone calls in 1960's America?
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Reverse the polarity of the TalkBack flow? The High Council of the Whovians (or TalkBackers?)? I suck at naming things.
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Is it me or do the writers have not got the pacing of some of the episodes quite right? They have seemed either not enough story to fill the time or to rushed to fit everything in. Think loosing the 10-12 mins per episode, to fit the US market, have thrown them for a loop pacing wise! But loved this episode... Pitty Bucket.. err... kicked the bucket she would have been a great companion for a few episodes...
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sequence? I don't remember one!
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SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Can someone explain the cot... I mean if the name was written on it in Gallefreyan and er... can someone explain all that please.
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But *IS* that girl making the calls the young Melody/River?
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As I quickly fired off an email to a friend in the US which simply said "The Doctor is a BADASS!" during it.
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Take a peek at it here if you have the time: http://reviewthewho.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/6-7-a-good-man-goes-to-war/ In short, the first 10/10 I've awarded to Matt Smith's era.
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But isn't that why the Doctor flashed back to those scenes, and then said something along the lines of "Yes, they've already done that. It's too late" when told that the bad guys would try to raise Melody/River.
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But for me, it couldn't live up to the hype. Loved the first half of the episode, but it kind of slid slowly downhill after that. I wouldn't rank it as the best Moffat has given us by a long shot. The ending did come across as very rushed and god help us all with a title like Let's Kill Hitler for the next episode. Not a game changing cliff hanger on its own, in my opinion. Can't possibly be considered to be a game changer. No way. The Doctor goes off on his own, raises the young River Song, has a whole bunch of adventures in her life in reverse order or something? All off screen? Things I loved... real cybermen. Getting their asses kicked. The Doctors message. The fact that Jenny wasn't Genny. Captain Run Away. And the Doctors crib. I feel like the episode capped Rory and Amy's story, tied off the River Song one, and I can afford to wait until the Autumn now. But I still think we've seen better. I enjoyed it, but it felt like preparing for a punch from Tyson in his prime, and getting a bitch slap instead. It hit, but not as hard as I was expecting.
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Best explanation off of the top of my head is: The cot was the Doctors kids (before the time war i think) and he put the Galifrain for "Daughter" on it. (Do we ever know if he had a son or daughter before the time war? can't remember)
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that Bucket would regenerate at the end of the episode.
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I was kinda hoping Bucket would turn out to be a teenage version of Melody/River. The one character appearing in an episode at three different ages. Or imagine if she'd regenerated into Alex Kingston whilst older River was there to watch...
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I'll swear like a fucking fuck and usually complain like a thrush filled itchy cunt about something or other. In this case, it was an unfortunate K9/Romana thing, which I admit I've run into far too often on youtube, not just from the one cunt either. So yeah, I over-reacted. But think nothing of it, just tell me to fuck off and crawl away and die or something. No need to apologise at all. Some day my happy pills will arrive.......
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June 4, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST
"In short, the first 10/10 I've awarded to Matt Smith's era"
by GINGE_MUPPET
Really? I think over time you will revise that view. It barely makes my top5 of Smith episodes.
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Was a cool moment. I'm thinking the cot has greater significance than we're giving it at the moment. The regenerating little girl isn't River/Melody in my opinion however. Too obvious. Don't ask me who she however. I'm on the same ride as you and I don't know where it's going either.
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...the only companions (in the RTD era) that he's not told about his dead family? I'm sure they have asked him a couple of times if he had a family and he's ignored the question. And now he brings out the Cot. It might have been his as a baby or it was his and kept it for his child. Me thinks it's leading into another story line for next season...
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June 4, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST
Love the fact that River Song's wikipedia page has already been updated!
by Gabba-UK
Some people are far too quick off the block for my liking.
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The whole River reveal thing was built up so that in my mind this half season break was the Doctor raising higher than ever before then falling further, then River revealing something...then cliff-hanger!!!!. Higher than ever before--well he's pulled exactly this kind of stunt before so I am not sure capturing an asteroid is such a big deal. Falling further , well if he did it lasted about 12 seconds until Rivers reveal turned it into a happyish ending. Even within the episode though when Mrs Eyepatch talked about her trap--er was this the headless monks who then got bitch slapped by the Doctors little team--was that the big trap ?? I think the love of the characters and the performances of all the main players today saved this episode. By performances I mean The Doctor ( fantastic), Rory, Amy, Dorium, The Green Lizard and Kato ( Jenny), Sontaran. River , not so much. I'm sorry but her character carried the burden of spouting a load of portentious nonsense that in the end didn't mean terribly much. Oh and on the topic of repeating certain tropes I do think this, build the whole army up and then have the Doctor just take them apart was very reminiscent of Moffatts Jekyll sequence.
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I've been pretty disappointed with this season. Last season felt like the series was finally back to what I loved about the classic series (the Doctor and companion land somewhere new and have adventures) and I loved every second of it except the James Cordon episode. But this season, every place they go to has been stupidly dark (has the universe run out of light bulbs?) and every week it tries far too hard to tug at the heart strings. I just don't care enough about characters we've only just met to be that sad when they make their inevitable heroic sacrifice at the end of the story. Also, I find Rory just gets in the way. I never get the feeling he's on the TARDIS to see the universe, he's just Amy's loyal lapdog that goes where she does. He's just a bit dull and boring. Pacing and episode length has been a real problem this series too. Every episode feels like they've crammed 60 minutes of dialogue into 45 minutes, so we end up with the exposition being delivered at break-neck speed, which makes it hard to hear and follow what's going on. My final problem with this series has been the over-abundance of River Song. I never liked the character, I think she's far too smug and the idea that she's Amy's daughter was far too predictable to be surprising or shocking. Worse still, there's no nuance in her earlier performances to suggest any kind of reaction at meeting her parents before she was born, which seems a bit odd I think... This latest episode felt very budget constrained, what with every monster just being re-used from previous stories. No wonder they didn't spend money re-doing the Cybermen suits. Maybe this will be answered in the future, but I don't really understand why the Doctor would have a very old cradle with River's name on it, nor why her name is the forest version. Why isn't she just Melody Pond? It's been ages since I saw Silence in the Library because I hated River in that too. But I do remember she died, so I have to wonder why she didn't regenerate when she died there... Plus it's obvious the line about River killing a good man were about killing the Doctor. I hope it's not that simple but we'll see...
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June 4, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST
Simply fantastic. I loved every single second of it.
by sam jacksons wig
Pissed myself laughing at the Sontaran interaction with the humans. Cheered when Captain Avery and his son showed up. Loathed Madame Korvarian so much that visions of Delores Umbridge hoved into view. Grinned like a cheshire cat when the Doctor first showed up and "kept his head" whilst all around were losing theirs. Held my breath as Captain Runaway was introduced to an impotent army. Felt every pang of woe (as a Father) when the child double-bluff hit like a fucking sledge hammer. Quaked as Matt Smith showed us why he has become "The Doctor"- the sadness, the madness and the euphoria played to absolute perfection it leaves a lump in my throat thinking of it. Punched the air in triumph as Rory finally grew a set in the opening moments with the Cybermen. In short, if I could have wished for close to a perfect episode then Moff has delivered. Yes, my fellow DocBackers I was physically reduced to tears. My heart pounded like a freight train from the minute it began. THIS............ IS...................... WHO!!!!!!! Be fucking amazed!!!! Go on!!! Indulge yourselves!!!!
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In technicality, no. The Doctor Cannot, and will not ever have Children. Pythia, a great Sorceress - who was defeated by Rassilon, Omega, and The Other before the Time Lords were even created - cast a curse upon the Time Lords, that they would forever be Infertile. But Rassilon created the Loom, which created new Time Lords out of unused genetic material. The Other, however, was not affected by this curse, and went on to have children, and eventually a Grandaughter - Susan. When The Other realised Rassilon was becoming Evil, he sent Susan to escape to Spacedock, and threw himself into the Loom, and his genes were scattered across the Time Lords. A long time later, the Doctor was created, and he contained alot of The Other's Genes. The Hand of Omega allowed him to travel back in time (Recognising him as The Other) and he found Susan, lost, in Spacedock. Again, Susan realised he was very nearly the Other, and took him on as her Granddad. Therefore, The Doctor cannot have children, but did have an "Adopted" grandaughter. There are inconsistencies in the WHO universe though, ones that state the Doctor was married and indeed did have kids. Take each with a pinch of salt.
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I've lurked on this forum for quite a while, so now to post a few brief thoughts... A bit underwhelmed because (a) guessed the Melody/River bit and (b) I was really expecting a much bigger battle and (c) a much bigger rise and (d) a much bigger fall. I mean, on point c, he rebooted the universe - you don't get a bigger rise than that do you and on point d, he had to kill loads of his Time Lord bretheren - that is pretty low isn't it for him? But, dramatic license and all that, fair enough. I love Matt Smith though. Awesome. There is still a hell of a lot to look forward, but my main feeling is that I'm glad we've got it out of the way. I DID really enjoy the episode, just wasn't as big as I wanted it to be. Darkest ending would have been that the doctor turned out to be flesh, and they actually had him held prisoner. That would have been DARK but obviously some logic would have been needed... I still want to see how eye patch lady enabled Amy to have a link to her ganger WHEN SHE WAS IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE!!! That is pretty amazing tech isn't it? Andbreatheout. Just enjoying the ride. Best thing on TV.
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I know the River/Amy connection. However, the question is if she is the girl in the spacesuit. I think the one with the "encounter" talking to the Anglicans might have been that girl.. I don't know. Is she also River? Explained? I don't know, still watching. The sound is messed up though.
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"It's been ages since I saw Silence in the Library because I hated River in that too. But I do remember she died, so I have to wonder why she didn't regenerate when she died there." (From "The Forest Of The Dead") RIVER: "You'll burn up both your hearts, and don't think you'll regenerate!" "there's no nuance in her earlier performances to suggest any kind of reaction at meeting her parents before she was born, which seems a bit odd I think" Remember that we're meeting her backwards. As the show progresses, it's quite possible we'll see River in awe of her parents when she meets them for the first few times (from her perspective). "Why isn't she just Melody Pond?" We know that, at one point, The Doctor gives her a set of rules to prevent "Spoilers!" This could be one of them.
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It's established as such and should remain so. Anyone complaining about it's use are probably annoyed they didn't think of it first.
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June 4, 2011, 2:47 p.m. CST
gabba- they have a tardis and updated the page 3 weeks ago last Tuesday... ;0
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST
Horn- is the connection slow or have you got it on -300 x speed? Or are you just loking at bits of it in reverse order? THE WHO UNIVERSE MUST KNOW!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 2:50 p.m. CST
Fellow DocBackers- Wysteria Lane or Who again? Fuck! i know what I'm watching...
by sam jacksons wig
...and I hope that this week Terri Hatcher gets her clobber off...... ;)
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June 4, 2011, 2:52 p.m. CST
This Whoback Does Not Condone The Watching Of "Desperate Housewives"
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
Anyone found watching such a show will be subjected to the plungers of Daleks.
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To give comments. Or read them.
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June 4, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST
Photoboy- you will find out why River didn't tell Amy later in the series. For that, we go back to the Byzantium... now there's a spoiler!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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June 4, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST
And what would the dalek plungers be doing to a sans clobber Terrible Hatcher...
by Gabba-UK
Enquiring minds want to know. (but we can guess)
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June 4, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST
Watching and with the people the Doctor has brought together
by HornOrSilk
Still think the alliance comes out of this, and I still think the Doctor plans it... and that's why he tells Rory to be dressed as a Roman. To help make sure it happens. I could be wrong.
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I thought it was terrible. No plot to speak of, some terrible acting (particularly the first 10 minutes), and I was actually tempted to stop watching when those spitfires turned up. I'm not over joyed at the idea that the Doctor can call on an army of Silurians if he so desires. The River revelation doesn't answer any particularly important questions about her anyway. All it tells us is who her parents are and that she may be part timelord. The only bit that made me smile was the WTF moment of (spoilers) "The Doctor will be back in 'Let's Kill Hitler'".
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The 'battle' we where expecting was more like a fizzle and I suppose another viewing will help bit I missed why exactly why the sontaran and cybermen helping. What exactly was the point of Rory in the centurion guise? How & why where the spitfires there? A bit more of the Doc working behind the scenes instead of the ramblings of the soldiers wouldn't have been amiss at the start. The pacing too felt off- 'quiet, emotional bits' seemed to be crowbarred in just to break up the action (the action itself was mostly rubbish-that fight with the headless monks was hopeless). Speaking of which-the headless monks who are feared throughout the galaxy-but we've never heard of them before..... Also thought we would have just been given a few more answers in this episode (who did River kill? Is the astronaut girl River?). Didn't like the Doc disappearing off at the end when Rory and Amy where obviously in need of a bit of TLC after what had happened. I love time travel stories but I fear, as Barry Norman said when reviewing BTTF2-that it's all disappearing up it's own arsehole!! Suppose we can expect the story to be continued in smatterings for the next 5 episodes, then a big 'timey-wimey' finale (sigh). Maybe I just prefer Dr Who in the old style with background themes but mostly self-contained stories-fitting in with 'moving on-don't look back' ethos that has been very much put to bed. I'm not a troll, I just want my who stories to be a bit more coherentd-at the moment Mr Moffatt needs to be a little less pleased with himself and give us a better quality WHO. Ah well, maybe on second viewing....
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June 4, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST
CBTML- then it's a good job I'm watching Who again... but am now thinking of Dalek suckers on bits of Terri Hatcher.....yummidy yum.
by sam jacksons wig
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return! 2011!
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Jobs tells us to trust the iPhones spellcheck and I usually do. But Terri Hatcher being terrible... that's funny. And so not true.
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Rory says something about 'what if there were two Doctors.' River says "that's a whole different birthday." (sly grin) Is Moffat telling us that a Smith and Tennant (and River) team-up is on the cards? I think he is you know.
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June 4, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST
The game changing has happened in the episode, but not at the end
by HornOrSilk
The creation of a new species of Time Lords. This is also why the Doctor trains River. Or is it the origins of the Time Lords themselves in a massive time loop of sorts? We know more about their origins...
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June 4, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST
Horn- no, I don't think that you are wrong at all. I think you are 120% correct.
by sam jacksons wig
And we will both be there to witness it. Good fucking times my friend!!!!
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June 4, 2011, 3:22 p.m. CST
siskokid- we've heard of the headless monks before- S5 time of angels...first few minutes. check it out.
by sam jacksons wig
And it will tie in nicely with this season methinks.
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June 4, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST
Finally it takes HornOrSilk to state the one masive fact (and that was meant as a compliment, Horn!)
by sam jacksons wig
We hae a new breed of timelord, ladies and gents. And what does this mean for their future AND their past?????? And just who would LOVE to come back and wipe it out of existence???? YEESSSS!!!!!!
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A new breed of Time Lord--yawn. It might be a game changer for real Whophiles but in terms, of the general viewing public, who were promised a game changer doesn't work for m
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We really didn't get told everything about River Song yet. And it is quite clear we might have a large gap of time for the Doctor and River to be together - and I think that gap will not be shown. There certainly is more going on than meets the eye... but I don't think the cliffhanger has the wow they meant to give it.
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June 4, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST
Piers Wenger and Beth Willis, got to love em! Everywhere they go they just show up and look...bored.
by sam jacksons wig
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Depends on what they do with it. It seems that this new race MIGHT indeed be around -- the Doctor doesn't know -- and tampering with time even!
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I think River being Amy and Rory's daughter is all some huge double bluff. How's Rory's dynamic with the Doctor going to carry on as is with Rory know that a 900 year old alien is going to be banging his daughter at some point in the future!! How do most dads cope with the knowledge that someone is fucking their little princess??? Badly is the answer.
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And if we're going back to America in the final ep, what will that tell us about the flesh?
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The Doctor thought he was the top of the ladder, being the last of the Time Lords. But if there is a new race of Time Lords, with their own policies and laws and rules and regulations, made in part to wipe out the previous Time Lords and all their influence -- the Doctor really could be on the run (which he says he has been in the opening episode)!
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But after the newlyweds had their first night in the TARDIS. When, beyond that, may or may not be important.
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Their playing in the background might be over, and the rest of the season could, in part, be the struggle between the Doctor and these new Time Lords who want to make Time in their own images. Time is running out as a new Time War begins -- one which might require the Doctor to create the alliance -- so that the Pandorica can be made? I wouldn't be surprised if it is used, somehow, to save him from the Silence (the agents of the new Time Lords, or even, the New Time Lords themselves? Remember, Amy is honored by them for her contribution). So I think "all bets are off," and the Doctor is running -- as he is trying to figure out how to outsmart the new Lords of Time.
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June 4, 2011, 3:59 p.m. CST
I could be confused but are you people suggesting...
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
...that River gives birth to a new group of Time Lords? Madame Kovarian: "Breed faster, damn you! We must have more! MORE! MOAR TIME LORDS!!"
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No. They have her DNA. They have the DNA the body needed. Remember what River said in the first episode. They have a Time Lord and know what to do with it.
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June 4, 2011, 4:05 p.m. CST
The comedy space marines ... Taking time off from Red Dwarf?
by GINGE_MUPPET
Seriously ... Why make the army waiting for the Doctor seem like utter fools?
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Now we know why River can marry the Doctor... another question to ask do they have children together? I would say -- yes. So, it is possible we will see two groups of Time Lords being created.
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Ah, I see. I prefer my idea though. It would almost make Madame Kovarian the intergalactic version of Phillip Garrido.
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Were these soldiers related to the ones from "Time Of Angels"?
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Of course. And who knows, there could be something like that intended, too.
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The Doctor himself. He's gone from healer to warrior. The Valeyard future keeps getting closer and closer, doesn't it?
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I'm sure they were connected, in some fashion or another. They were "Anglicans" though -- so it might be a rival group of clerics.
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At the beginning when River Song is breaking back into prison, Rory shows up. She tells him she's been out with The Doctor, and today is her birthday! Damn, Moffet, that was sly! It went right past me the first time. She's Rory and Amy's daughter, who was just born, and today is her birthday. How could I have missed that. Anyway, on second watching the scene plays differently because you know she's looking at her dad. She struggles to call him Rory instead of dad. Awesome, awesome episode.
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1) Why she is in prison (who is it she killed and why) 2) What the Doctor and her were doing together 3) Is the prison itself really a distraction -- she keeps getting in and out as she wants -- so it seems that she really is not in prison. Is it more a place to keep her safe instead of a prison?
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June 4, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST
I got a really bad vibe from that scene, Sitchin
by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS
She was almost talking to him as though she'd just seen him die or something. I really hope Rory doesn't meet his maker during their next encounter.
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Another Doctor/TARDIS has to be there. Or she has her own TARDIS... because... the TARDIS is translating for Amy and Rory.
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Arrrrrgggghhhh!!! I haven't seen the episode yet. That said, If Rory is her dad... there was no flicker of emotion on her face when she saw him the first time during "The Pandorica Opens". She just called him the roman centurion. Now, I know she can lie and act pretty well but to show absolutely nothing? Pfft! What do I care, I just can't wait to see this! I curse iTunes and BBCA for not showing this now! and Bah to youtube as well! ~shakes fist all menacing like!~
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June 4, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST
This episode has killed all of my interest in current Doctor Who
by offscauta
It makes me sad to say it. But it was terrible. Really, really bad. I honestly wish that I could see what people who loved it were seeing, but I don't. We spent ten minutes with some poorly acted comedy characters that even Moffat couldn't be bothered to name, got the rousing speech scene from Jekyll again, only less effectively, had the Doctor take control of the asteroid through the incredibly clever idea of bringing a bigger army with him, some truly awful action scenes and pointless recurrences of characters from previous episodes (and the return of the spitfires almost had me turning it off). And I worry that the remaining half of the season will be taken up with River and her relationship to Amy and Rory, when we could be having adventures in time and space. The only bit that made me smile was "The Doctor will be back in 'Let's Kill Hitler'", and when the best part of an episode is the reveal of the title for the next one there is probably something wrong.
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that wasn't the first time she saw him.
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Madam Vastra: Thankyou Parker, I won't be needing you again tonight. Parker : Yus M'lady Ha-ha Thunderbirds reference.
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Really? When was the first time? I must be skippin a groove here... I can't remember it now.
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Fucking A! Has even the Doctor himself ever had such a truly badass moment as that? Probably not since he doesn't usually go around blowing space fleets up! Rory started out, like Mickey started out in the first season, as a bit of a spare part. But in this latest season Arthur Darvill's really upped his game in response to what Moffatt's giving him to play with. And it looks like the blue guy's comment in the preview/teaser - "God help us if you've made him angry" - could apply to more than one person!
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The first time River met Rory was on Demon's Run, when Rory rescued Amy and he held his baby for the first time (although officially it was Gangerbaby). It's also the first time River 'met' the Doctor too ;)
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It delivered what was promised, and is a solid contender for one of the top ten episodes in the Matt Smith run (for me anyways). I wonder if they're going to go into more detail with Susan and the rest of the Doctor's (previous?) family in the episodes to come? That would be a really neat nod all the way back to "An Unearthly Child" (among many other of course) that would tie in to the current series. They seem to be hinting at it every once in a while, so I'm thinking maybe that those little mentions will form the larger arc for series 7. Well, one can hope!
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I loved the beginning of this episode. The grunts-eye view of an army opposing the Doctor. The Doctor not appearing for the first 20 minutes was superbly effective. Christina Chong as Lorna Bucket in that tight army tshirt... (I had hoped she'd become a companion!). But the ending created too many plot holes and questions. It certainly wasn't a game-changer.<P>I'm glad to read from some comments above that I'm not the only one who doesn't find River Song engaging. She's far too smug for my liking and the main aspect of her character was constant references to 'Spoilers!' which I quickly found irritating. She had always indicated that when the Doctor found out who she was it would change everything. The inference being that after/(before?) the battle of Demon's Run the Doctor would find out that she had done something terrible and she would be a bad guy from that point on (or for a while, anyway). But the opposite has happened and nothing seems to have changed (except that she may have been the one to kill the Doctor).<P>There was also nothing here to show that the Doctor has fallen to his lowest point. I was looking forward to an Empire Strikes Back moment with the bad guys in control and the good guys at a low ebb. But we actually get a kinda tacked-on happy ending. I don't see why Demon's Run had to be fought at all when they could have taken the kid at any point. (And how come these enemies have time travel to take Melody back in time? Is it really common in the future and the Time Lords aren't so special after all?)<P>The 'trap' seemed pointless. Mrs Eyepatch knew it couldn't work as she needed the child to destroy the Doctor. The Headless Monks were therefore useless.<P>The fact that River showed no signs of regenerating when she died makes it seem unlikely that Moffat had Time Lord DNA in mind all along.<P>Let's Kill Hitler is a less-than-inspiring title. Makes it sound like a spoof. If it's describing the plot of the episode (and not some clever-clever allusion) then it seems the next episode won't be focused entirely on the consequences of this one. I would prefer a full sequel rather than a 5-minute wrap-up followed by a new story. Wait and see, I guess.<P>All of these season-long (and longer) mysteries makes me realise how much I prefered the standalone episodes. Which is one reason why The Doctor's Wife is my favourite episode of this season (and even that had to shoe-horn in a pointless reference to Amy still thinking about the fact the Doctor's going to die - as if we, the audience are stupid and need reminding). Moffat's timey-wimey stuff is brilliant in self-contained stories. His individual episodes were the best of New Who and his short story Continuity Errors remains my favourite piece of Doctor Who in any medium. But it is just frustrating when it's drawn out over a long period and gets in the way of any self-contained episodes. Maybe it will all be wrapped up so brilliantly at the end of the season that I will change my mind. But I won't hold my breath.<P>Aplogies for going on so long, btw.
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Seems like it <P> didn't <p>work
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You still don't get the ending to the Library. THE DOCTOR WOULD HAVE DIED AND HAD NO REGENERATIONS if he did what she did.
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"The fact that River showed no signs of regenerating when she died makes it seem unlikely that Moffat had Time Lord DNA in mind all along" * "You'll burn up both your hearts, and don't think you'll regenerate!" - River Song's warning to The Doctor. She subsequently died that way. * River Song can read and write Gallifreyan * River Song can pilot the TARDIS
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even before he mentioned producing milk
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Didn't the Ninth Doctor explain to Rose that the TARDIS gets inside of a person's head and translates for them? I'm pretty sure there weren't any restrictions about the TARDIS having to be near them afterwards. But I could be wrong, I suppose.
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Moffat must start telling linear stories. I wondered if his stories lacked spectacle, something Davies excelled at. However, the opening scene sorted that, and Matt Smith just gets better and better. Setting the bar higher than ever in terms of characterisation and wit. 9/10
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It translates for them -- when it is there, when the Doctor is around. Remember the Christmas Invasion. It's power is limited. So it would suggest a TARDIS is around near River...
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Not so much a question of 'not getting it' as 'misremembering something I saw 3 years ago' as I don't have DVDs to check on. I just remembered she died and didn't regenerate. If there's a line to explain it, that's good. I don't recall the circumstances of her death, but I guess it was offscreen because it would seem odd for regeneration not to even begin.
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I assume the little girl was a time lord since she regenerated but River is the product of Amy and Rory both of whom are not time lords so how is this possibe? I guess I'll have to watch.. not sure if it's answered in the episode.
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We are to assume the girl is River. We are, however, told about the girl.. yes..
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June 4, 2011, 5:21 p.m. CST
Honestly, if you haven't enjoyed this half season, I don't know what to say to you...
by Stegman84
I had a feeling that this season is where it would all come together for the Moffat/Smith era, after all, they now know Matt's Doctor and are writing directly for that, and the other characters. Everything is established, they know the rythyms, all they need to do now is put those characters into some great stories, and so far this season they have done exactly that. And the result is the best that NuWho has ever been. This is the season that many hoped for last season when Moffat first took over, full of intelligent, winding, non-dumbed down storylines, enough spectacle and pace for the masses, and with all the humour and wit and character that you could ask for. This, right here, is the NuWho I have wanted since Who came back. And while there have been plenty of great episodes in that time, in terms of consistency in both quality and storytelling, this season is hands down the best the show has been since its resurrection. I'm not belittling anything that has come before, I just think this is NuWho firing on all cylinders, and while nothing is ever perfect, this season so far is everything I could have hoped for and more. I mean when a quite fun, if throwaway, pirate romp is the worst episode of the year, you must be doing pretty damn well. Especially when all the other episodes have been great, and some even better than that. I hope the second part of the season is just as good... That some folks still complain about Smith's Doctor and Moffat's vision for the show at this point frankly boggles my mind, it truly does.
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Ok I have to get this off my chest because it still doesn't make sense. What does it say on the Cot ? If it says "river song" and the Dr knew it was there then why has he never questioned the fact that he had a cot with her name on it in the tardis ? If it says "daughter" why would the Dr assume it was Amys ? unless he doesn't in which case he would assume it's his which makes the revelation scene more than a little creepy. It could say "Amys daughter" that would make a sort of logical sense, given the non linearity of the time lines it could be the cot he builds in the future to keep river song in while he travels back to Amy but that makes absolutely no sense unless the Dr habitually travels with a number of his companions offspring and needs to diferentiate between them. The conclusion the episode seems to suggest is that it says "river song" but honestly, the Dr went and got it from the tardis, seemed to know about it and wouldn't have any problem reading galefrayan and seems to know who was in it so how would that make any sense. My personal conclusion. well, the Dr doesn't actually say or do anything that would lead us to conclude that his revelation of who river song is was the same as Amys. He may well still not know that, but he does know her which suggests its the name of someone he has a past with and would not consider snogging under normal circumstances... so maybe "Rani" ( although that also makes no sense given that Rani is a title.
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it's funny you say this series is 'non-dumbed down' as over in the 'Doctors Darkest Hour' talkback, spud is, as we speak, claiming it to be exactly that...
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The Doctor's real name. That's how River knows it.
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over on the BBC DW website, there's a directors commentary on the final scene of AGMGTW where the director actually admits that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT SAYS ON THE COT! ha ha h ah. He said they tried to do some research, but couldn't translate it!! ?????????
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Time lord crib that changes it's name to who's currently occupying it?
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I will be very dissapointed if the next episode is a stand alone it would, in my opinion, make this episode pretty terrible. In my opinion with no facts backing it up I assume the next episode will be the second part of this one. The title "lets kill hitler" ( which I personally thought was hilarious ) sounds more of an allusion to the old hypothetical question "if you could go back in time would you kill hitler" Given the revelations in this episode I suspect that alludes either to the discovery that baby river song might do something terrible in which case should the Dr kill it or that the Dr may now see himself as a destructive force in the universe as such, should he kill himself.
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June 4, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST
That seems to be the go to defense of anyone who doesn't like something
by Stegman84
Or who wants to act as if their opinions, and thus themselves by extension, is somehow superior to everyone else. Still, he is of course entitled to his opinion, regardless of how strongly I personally disagree with him. In my opinion Moffat has brought back a complexity to the show, both in sci-fi plotting and characters, that I haven't seen explored in Who since the heyday of the 70's with Pertwee and the early Tom Baker years.
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I don't think it is stand alone. I do think, however, it has Amy and Rory meet back with the Doctor after the Doctor has done a lot which we do not see. Rumors are the Doctor starts out trapped by the Nazis... and I think River has come to pick up Amy and Rory to take them to help the Doctor, and one of them then thinks they should kill Hitler while they are at it..
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I tried to choose my words with care by saying 'showed no signs of regenerating' rather than 'did not regenerate' but 'don't think you'll regenerate' would seem to cover that. Maybe Moffat was planning it all along (although I still think that line was there primarily to create jeopardy for the Doctor). If Moffat was planning that far ahead I wonder if The Silence were in the Library...? I am also bothered by the writing on the cot in the same way that cptblood is. It seems clear that the writing said either Melody Pond or River Song so where did the writing come from? For her name to be there, the Doctor must have met her as a child in the past (presumably pre-Tennant) and put her name on it. But Tennant's Doctor had never heard of River and Smith's Doctor showed no indication (that I recall) of knowing that Amy Pond would have a child. Possibly we can get round this by saying that the interior of the Tardis isn't necessarily in a cause-and-effect timeframe so things that haven't happened yet can appear there. But I don't expect there will be an explanation beyond, maybe, 'timey-wimey'. Which was an amusing get-out the first couple of times as it gently mocks the nature of the show. But using it too much will get tiring.
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I think it says the Doctor's name. And the Doctor finally gets how River knew his name. But also he saw the weaving...
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If this episode was shown prior to the recent television Bafta's Matt Smith would not have only been the first Doctor to be nominated for one, he'd have won the bloody thing.
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Its either the Doctor's real name (Which will never be translated) or something generic gallifreyan (Like a brand name for the cribs manufacturer or something). There's no there there.
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The Doctor DID NOT read the cot when River asked him to read it. After she asked him to read, it cut to Amy. From her point of view the camera looked at the front of the cot. Amy is thinking that is what the Doctor was reading. He was reading what was IN the cot. The Prayer Leaf that had "River" sewn onto it. That's how he figured it out. So when Amy came over she tried to read what she thought the Doctor was reading...but River held up the Leaf. That is what had the name written on it. I hope this clears that question up for everyone.
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Of course, however, it will be used to explain a plot point.
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Put the name IS the Doctor's. And this is how River knows it. No, she didn't remember it as a baby. She remembered it from when she read the crib's name as an adult.
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Also, I believe that either next season or the season after that we will have a young River Song as the Doctor's Companion
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Right...the name on the crib is the Doctor's but he knew River was Melody by reading the prayer leaf in the crib.
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But he might also finally figured out he never told her his name.
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That was my first thought too. Well, actually my first thought was 'what a stupid title' as I don't recall there being a joke-y Doctor Who title before. No reason that there shouldn't be, but after a 'dramatic' cliffhanger it seemed odd to undercut it with something silly like that. Kinda like Catherine Tate appearing in the Tardis after the Doctor was parted from Rose. So, yes, at first sight it does seem to address the moral question of killing Hitler. But this interference in history has been address before in Father's Day, the Pompeii episode and, before that, Genesis of the Daleks. I've always wondered why no companion, on first learning of time travel, has ever suggested going back to avert the Second World War. I'm sure the episode won't be standalone. I was just hoping for the equivalent of 'part two' of the current story concentrating entirely on the current plot. 'Let's Kill Hitler' suggests there will be other stuff going on.
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Oh thank GOD! yes, that explains it. Phew that was driving me utterly mad. That was a wierd bit of cutting though, why bother ?
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No worries, mate. I had to watch it twice to get it, too. Bad edit on their part.
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So well crafted, clever, moving. And such a reveal. Expected, but still packed a hell of a wollop. So, how long until we kill Hitler now?
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Got it on the nose. There hasn't been a companion yet in the revived series who has lasted beyond two seasons as a regular. It sets that transition up nicely.
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I could see that happening, and welcome it. Just please please please don't let it be a kid.Young, fine. But not a child.
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I hadn't thought of the Doctor's true name being on the crib. And she was showing him the prayer leaf. All explained. Excellent. I was misdirected by Amy trying to read the crib. Which was kinda off because River knew it wouldn't be translated. A weight off my mind.
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Ah, what caused my confusion about the crib was 'can't you read?' was followed by a shot of the Gallifrean writing on the crib. Confusing piece of direction, that, as it seems to suggest the writing refers to River.
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For the third and final time, I'm telling everyone here that I am 100% *NOT* Steven Moffat. So please, burn your Shirley Temple outfit (and we'll promise not to ask why owned such an outfit in the first place), inform your mass murderer friends that a performance will not be forthcoming and let's not speak of this nonsense ever again! How about we just discuss how amazing tonight's episode was instead, eh? It seems like we're in agreement with that at least!
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June 4, 2011, 6:02 p.m. CST
On that which Didnt get revealed about river *SPOILER*
by TheEdIsNotAmused
Ok, so they set up the identity of river as Amy and Rory's daughter, but skipped over the Who did she kill question. She obviously believes she should be punished in some form for her crime. If she can escape from the stormcage so effortlessly, why come back there? Unless she feels like she actually deserves to be incarcerated, and that its OK to escape for the Doctor because he's her only path to redemption. She killed a "good man". Who's the good man that went to war? Sorry Rory, but you're dead man walking.
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June 4, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST
Great things about the episode which have not been much discussed
by HornOrSilk
We have a major advance in our understanding of Sontarans. Even if it was done in jest, they have just become the newest Ice Warriors. They are not always going to have to be "evil." While they love war, and fight for the glory of Sontar, we now know this can have them work with other races (and respect them by fighting them at another time). There seems to be more times the Doctor has worked with the Silurians. And it's not always been a disaster for him. The Doctor is feared as a warrior -- causing people to want to rise up against him -- there has to be more with this than meets the eye. Cybermen are up to something. I am thinking they are watching in wait, hoping to take over as Lords of Time. What else did you see which has not been talked about much? I think I like the Sontaran development the most. This rounds them up quite a bit just like Peladon did for the Ice Warriors.
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WTF was she doing in 19th Century London anyway? Did the doctor take her there? and, if so, WTF is he doing planting an alien in England shortly after he provoked the Queen into starting Torchwood? That draft thats blowing thru the room is just flowing thru the plot hole. Unless I missed something really obvious here...
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I didn't pay too much attention at that point -- but -- I seem to remember the explanation was that she was with a group of Silurians that awoke in the 19th century, and the Doctor worked with them and so it was one time he was successful in finding a solution..
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...I think this season is dumbing down a fair bit.<P> The thing with Lawrence Miles' website (Man_Of_Vertue called christian_bale out for mentioning it, and with good reason - Lawrence HATES the Moff) is that although he's extremely bitter, for whatever reasons, sometimes he's right. Like here:<P> "'And just when it seems there's a happy ending, a grim portent of the future. Something terrible is coming...! Actually, since this is a programme about a man fighting monsters who blow up planets, we probably don't need to point out that something terrible is coming. Especially when I keep telling people the same thing in interviews. But Mark Braxton only ever gives us a good review when there's clumsy foreshadowing tacked on the end, and the Babylon-5 fans still think it's clever, so here we see someone with psychic powers giving a vague warning to the Doctor. We've done this in every season so far, and it's never failed yet. Except when it's raised the viewers' expectations of the end-of-season finale to the point where the final episode can't possibly live up to the hype. And when it's obviously failed, like it has for the last two years.' "<P> He's not wrong. Once again, vague portents that don't sound remotely like real dialogue (really, can you imagine ANYONE saying "You know so-and-so? This is the day he'll rise higher than he ever has before, and then he'll fall so much further"? No. Me neither) fail to deliver an ending with enough tension to live up to the over-portentousness of the original portent. Once again we're asked to watch an episode where exposition replaces real dialogue, where we can be told the Headless Monks are one of the most fearsome warrior sects in the universe, only to have them defeated by a weedy nurse in a Roman outfit with no combat experience, plus his ragtag allies. Where some nice character moments ("I promised myself I'd be cool") are ignored in favour of questions being answered by more questions - the fatal flaw in LOST, and, it seems, in WHO.<P> Anybody remember "FOREST OF THE DEAD"? River whispers in the Doctor's ear, and the Doctor replies "There''s only one time I would tell anybody that word, there's only one time that I COULD"? Earlier, he mentions that it's his real name. Now we're being led to believe that River gave him a warning about what's hapening in the autumn episodes. Totally non-related. I'd like to think the Moff has a plan - but seriously, was anybody actualy surprised by the revelation of River? Like a lot of people on the net, I was hoping we'd be wrongfooted into something more interesting than THAT. And it's vaguely icky - this means the Doctor has snogged (and possibly married) the daughter of the Companion trying to shag him all through Season 1. EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, much? But more to the point - after all this teasing, the best we get from who River is is THAT revelation? Boooooring...<P> I liked the character moments - Rory comes off very well here, and Karen Gillan's acting is heaps better this episode (she's been sketchy at best so far) but there's that tiresome gay agenda thing again (hey, I should mention how much I like lesbians and sexy Silurians here, play into the hands of the RTD apologists) which just serves to rob an over-plotted episode of two very-much-needed lines that could have given us yet more exposition.<P> And THAT is the final problem - wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey plotting is NOT a good substitute for a decent, propulsive plot, an episode that rattles along with a decent amount of rewatchability. This is the problem with the Moff's stuff since becoming showrunner - the episodes are only interesting once you've seen the entire season - whereas stuff like GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE and BLINK is entirely rewatchable devoid of any context whatsoever. You don't need to fit a plot jigsaw together to enjoy them. Moff's stuff now just isn't satisfying - it's a string of set-pieces written solely to string out yet more questions that get answered with (you've guessed it) - yet more questions.<P> They tried that with LOST, and it failed miserably.<P> Last week's episode was a far stronger and more emotionally resonant cliff-hanger than this week's. It wasn't awful, but it was over-plotted, far too reliant on the obvious River Song reveal (should've not revealed the baby's name til the end, bit of a giveaway) and threw in a cheap dig at religious folk into the bargain (Headless Monks = "having faith" means having to have your brain, along with your head, removed - very liberal stuff from supposedly-liberal Lefty atheist Beeb types). Sorry to say it, but I was on tenterhooks last week, waiting for this week. After tonight, I couldn't be less bothered about the cliff-hanger, such as it is. Though LET'S KILL HITLER did make me smile. Nice title, Moff... :D
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Did they know who she was when she was working with them in the Time of Angels. And was it the Doctor's actions during this (That he could defeat an entire army of Weeping Angels by hiself) that caused the Clerics to fear him and set out to destroy him...Mmmmmm.
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Having rewatched the crib scene to clear up my previous confusion, it seems that the Doctor finding out that River is Melody leads him to figure out where she is. How? He had already worked out that Melody was the astronaut girl. Maybe he had already worked it out and was just uplifted and spurred into action by River. Which suggests that he's going to 60's America where she was last seen instead of retrieving the baby. Which kinda sucks for Rory and Amy as parents - missing out on her formative years. I hope the girl hasn't regenerated into the River we know. The scene I want to see in a future episode is the Doctor meeting a woman who knows him but gives a false name when she realises he doesn't recognise her. She then dies near the end of the episode and regenerates into River. Whose first words will, of course, be 'Hello, Sweetie!' Much as I dislike River as a character, that would be a nice way to link up two characters who are travelling in different directions. It might also put an end to 'spoilers!'. One thing that I dislike about River's arc is that it suggests time is immutable. Even when she knows something terrible is about to happen she doesn't even try to stop it. Which suggests a lack of free will and the Doctor never actually 'saves' anything because what happens happens - no matter what. A minor point which has been dealt with in previous episodes, I know. But, in general, I dislike any form of prophecy or preknowledge as a plot device.
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We don't know yet what relationship there is between the clerics in Time of the Angels and today's episode. They could be from rival ecclesial communions -- today, we saw Anglicans, but were they Anglicans in Time of the Angels? But the clerics in Time of the Angels knew who River was -- and why she was in jail. Remember, the Doctor was going to be told...
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Since she is a Time Lord, like the Doctor, her time line is more fixed, just like the rest of the Time Lords. That is one of the reasons why one wants a Time Lord on their side.
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Terribly disappointing - I really hoped they would pull something original out of their hat with River, because it's just more sloppy writing going on. There is absolutely NOTHING prior to this episode, this season, that indicates River should have ANYTHING to do with Rory and Amy. NOTHING. It's the classic tacked-on business that is meant to provoke and create some shock, but it feels dull to me. I don't mind if she's part-time lord or a new kind of time lord, that seemed more than hinted at - but at least it WAS hinted at. There was something to piece together. Rory and Amy though? Alien baby, kidnapping, it's all very X-Files-ish and the pay off is weak. It weakens Amy and Rory as they are now just the parents, the baby factory and have outlived their usefulness. It's a waste of character and drama and nothing but one set-up after another. Too many mistakes, too many droppings being left that Moffat and his team don't seem to care about. Rory remembering being an Auton when HE never was an Auton? That's sloppy writing. Amy is the mother of River Song? Really? That's the best they can achieve for Amy after all the build-up of her character last year? What's next? I guess River killed the Doctor in order to go to prison next - well, might as well just carve that in stone. Why not. What new expectations can we have for her character now? If a very young River Song isn't his companion next season, what's the point? Amy and Rory are done with. Thanks for delivering the egg and the sperm. Bye guys. I have to agree with whoever questioned this as a game-changing season. More hype-filled language from Moffat and little pay-off. He's oversold this show just to impress the US and, likely, work up to a feature film. It's the business, but it's a shame so much of it is based on gee-whiz action, shock and awe and not much that actually was ever present to begin with. I really used to love this show, but the sloppiness, the total smugness of Moffat and his hype machine - and his total lack of caring for quality or originality is a complete turn-off. It's a shock. I really thought he might be capable of better.
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Much as I do enjoy it - and I do, I thought tonights episode was very, very good. I do worry about his era in the fact that so many questions don't seem to be getting answered - it's getting a bit like Lost in some ways. I mean The Silents? Was the phrase uttered all through the series 'The Silents Will Fall?' or 'The Silence Will Fall'? I'm assuming that it was the silents will fall but who was manipulating things so the TARDIS would explode and what significance did the phrase have? Was it a hint of things to come? River Song - a lot still has to be answered regarding her. The pseudo Tardis in the Lodger and the opening two parter? Who did those belong to? And many more questions. I don't mind mystery and ongoing threads but I'd rather they didn't continue for the entirety of his run and there just seems to be a huge lot to clear up in six episodes. I did love the Sontaran Nurse and wish he'd survived a while as I think he'd have made an absolute perfect companion. And the 13 year old inside me was so disappointed not to see Absalom Daak in the army. Ah well...
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Only one man can play him. Bruce Campbell.
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"(really, can you imagine ANYONE saying "You know so-and-so? This is the day he'll rise higher than he ever has before, and then he'll fall so much further"? No. Me neither)" So, you're saying people don't really speak like they do in films? Ok Moff, get out of here. Spud wants Guy Ritchie for showrunner. The Doctor: "Up them apples and pears is likely a time-machine thing, but fuck knows where it came from Amy!?" Dorium: "Who wants sentient-facking-money?! This is a deal, it's a steal, it's sale of the facking century!!"
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River Song is Melody Pond as Darth Vader is Aniken Skywalker. <p> Maybe you weren't around then, but go read the reviews from the time. People hated that choice as some of you hate this one. The only difference here is that enough clues were given that you were able to predicted it, but don't make like either wasn't, in reality, slightly pulled out of nowhere.
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I don't know if the clerics knew that she had Time Lord DNA in Time of Angels - but it'd be a damn good reason for guarding her. Either for her own protection or for the rest of the universe's sake. I seem to recall the cleric who was guarding her being surprised when he was introduced to the Doctor. Maybe because he's the stuff or legend, or maybe because he thought he was dead... I also remember him asking River if the Doctor at that point knew what she did. Which suggests he wouldn't expect the Doctor to be so friendly if he did know. This presumably is because of the 'good man' she killed. At first, like theedisnotamused, I assumed that the 'good man' who went to war was Rory. This episode, after all, featured the second monologue by Amy which seemed to be about the Doctor but - surprise(!) - was actually about Rory. When River seemed so melancholy about seeing Rory as the centurion, I was certain that she knew that Rory was about to be killed by her and from that point on the Doctor would see her as an enemy. But since this did not happen, we're back to either the Doctor or Rory being the 'good man' who she kills. It looks as if her younger self killed the Doctor, but this is not certain. And it would seem harsh to sentence a child to life imprisonment for killing someone, presumably against her will.
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I had just assumed the Clerics were of the same order.
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wasn't there a big speech about a good man not needing rules.... which is why the doctor has SO MANY of them? Implying that the doctor is FAR from being a good man?
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Could she be talking about her father????
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He is ... and I suspect he will be in the near future. The bare-bones story of the last series and a half is a damn good one but its wrapped up in so much convoluted chaos it often gets lost. Right now the entire show is catering to a select few and that concerns me.
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I'd put money on it. KELVINGTON, STOP DROOLING!
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I knew the little girl was an earlier incarnation of River, i'm still not clear on how she is all timelord, the explanation given was a little stupid. I loved the doctors smirk when river told him who she was, probably a sense of perverse satisfaction knowing he snogged both amy pond and then her daughter too ! lol
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I don't argue with the logic of Time Lords having fixed timelines. It's just that if the Doctor and River are travelling in opposite directions, both with fixed timelines, it means neither of them can change anything - for good or bad. Narratively speaking, this kind of fixed prophecy is something I generally dislike for the same reasons put by Lawrence Miles as quoted by spud_mcspud_returns. Foreshadowing by prophecy is too often used as a lazy way to give plot impetus. I know most don't mind it, but it's just my personal taste as, philosophically, I prefer the idea of free will over destiny. I want to believe that heroes in narratives I enjoy can change things for the better and are not on any kind of fixed rails that they cannot change. I also agree with spud about the Doctor's true name and "There''s only one time I would tell anybody that word, there's only one time that I COULD". At the time, I assumed that this time would be the Doctor's final death. It does look as if the young River killed the Doctor. But that line seems a little less relevant if his name is just written on a cot. Which is odd, when a line about not regenerating from the same episode seems to be so important. The main thing I disagree with spud about is the 'gay agenda' bits. The gay soldiers did seem a bit forced, but the lesbian lizard tongue gag was the most hilariously filthy thing I've seen on Doctor Who (closely followed by the Doctor seemingly going down on Martha...)
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who thinks this is happening? as imbd states them in the cast list. personally they would probably be saved for the anniversary in 2013 but it isn't beyond the realms of probabilty that somehow the Dr will need his other selves to face the crisis looming in the last ep? before others say imbd can't be trusted ( and yes a lot of the time they cant) they have got the cast lists right for the previous series, billie piper was mentioned before any confirmation she was returning etc
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June 4, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST
IMDB also got many things wrong, like who was playing Davros
by HornOrSilk
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I loved that line, but didn't quite get it. I had just assumed that the Doctor was a good man. But, of course, we know that he is capable of terrible retribution. (I just wish we'd see more of that onscreen rather than just referred to). I feel more than a little dumb that I didn't get that line first time round. Now that you've explained it, I see it as a truly great line that opens the Doctor's character a little more. And, as such, surely he is not the good man? It would be highly unusual in New Who to be so dark as to kill off a companion. But they need an excuse for Amy to give up the intoxication of time travel. I had thought it would be her pregnancy, but Rory's death would be far more epic. As long as he stayed dead this time...
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Remember, early on, Amy and Rory actually went to a location that earlier Amy and Rory had gone to, to watch? The Doctor even pointed it out to them...
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I was going to go on Gallifrey Base to discuss the episode, but this has been fun. I must tear myself away to go to bed soon. I have learnt a lot. But I'm glad that I didn't read previous talkbacks as I hadn't guessed about Melody/River. Although I'm sure I would have if I had noticed any reference to Melody Pond before this episode. I was too caught up in the plot to realise the link during the episode. (That's my excuse anyway). I think this has cured my initial disappointment with the ending after such a thrilling start. Now I'm wondering if and how they will bridge the gap between young astronaut Melody and River getting locked up in the Storm Cage.
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Damn, I had forgotteen that. Which episode was that in? Maybe she misses him and so has a Flesh version made. ugh....
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http://www.justin.tv/rejuvenatedbobby#/w/1293735360 Watch it and discuss!
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Wasn't that in The Hungry Earth? Am I misremembering or did Rory appear in one version but then later it was just Amy? I may be making that up. At the time, I assumed it was to do with Rory being erased from time. But it could otherwise have been because he was killed. This would mean time being rewritten, but we now know this is possible.
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It was in The Hungry Earth.
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It's Churchill she kills. LOL
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It was in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood silurian story, but it was altered by the death of Rory in that same story... at the end, only Amy was there, waving at them. Time can be rewritten, etc...
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That would certainly be a twist haha.
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...then does that mean that event with the Silrians not happen (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood)? Sigh, Timey wimey shit. IT gets confusing.
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June 4, 2011, 7:30 p.m. CST
Wow, I was dead on with my guess on what River Song is and how she came to be.
by mistergreen
I would have liked to be surprised but it was good to see some sort of resolution. So the next companion will be a young River and they'll get serious like with marriage and stuff.
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A dull third wheel, is all he is. The heat's with Amy and the doctor. As I will it, so mote it be.
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Granted, I'm just getting into this series - and I love Matt Smith and Karen Gillian to death - but seriously, River Song is a poor character to hang a plot on. She's vastly unlikable IMO. Maybe it's the writing, maybe it's the actress; I'm not sure. But Matt and Karen blow every other cast member out of the water, and it's tiresome when the camera is focused elsewhere. JMO.
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"...then does that mean that event with the Silrians not happen (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood)? Sigh, Timey wimey shit. IT gets confusing." Did you pay no attention during the episode? The soldiers CEASED to exist as they approached the crack. After they did, none of their companions remembered them having been there ever. Because they never were. And when Rory was absorbed... he was never there either. Amy forgot about him. But the Doctor still knew. And there was an engagement ring. Do you people just watch the show while doing the laundry or something? It's like the people watching the last season of LOST complain that they never explained the polar bears, even though that had been covered early in the third season and multiple times since. When a show doesn't give you answers its fair to call them on it, but when they give you the answers in the episode, its you're own problem for not paying attention.
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it means that everything happened, but without Rory. He never existed. Amy even forgot who he was. Although... when the universe was rebooted, (and parts of this remain unclear) everything reverted to the way Amy remembered it being - and because Rory was recreated by the Alliance/nestine, she rememered him and therefore everything that happened. So, assume that everything that happened with Rory, happened. God I love this show.
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I'm sorry I don't have time to sit on the couch and hang onto every single detail that goes down on TV shows. I just don't remember every detail, and I know I'm not the only person.
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calm down. It was a fair question about events in Doctor Who from a while back. Nothing wrong with that at all.
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Like I said in the last post, I just don't remember every detail...thanks for reminding me.
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if there's one thing us regular Docbackers pride themselves ourselves on, it's decency and not hurling unwarranted abuse at each other. Unless, repeated mentions of Stargate makes it warranted :) Speaking of which, no sign of dickholder for ages.....
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Is there more with him than meets the eye, too? The Doctor seems to know the name.. it's as if he is plotting something with him..
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Can't believe nobody is talking about the skeleton with the sonic screwdriver in its hand, was I the only one who saw it??
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I mentioned it WAY back, about 3 minutes after it aired... ....nobody else saw it apparantly, as nobody else has mentioned it until now! Thank you ;)
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sorry... my man ChristianBale spotted it too.
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I completely missed it, where in the episode did it appear?
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June 4, 2011, 8:10 p.m. CST
What is the most cliche thing to say you'd do if you could
by MoffatBabies
travel back in time? Kill Hitler. I'm thinking the episode will deal with someone who has a new-found ABILITY or access to something.
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But I'm far too enthused to join in. It was just too epic, too fun, too moving. Oh the possibilities Moffat has opened up for the future.
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immediately after the credits had rolled, a teaser trailer panning across the bottom of a lake to a skeleton arm.. and bony fingers...clutching a sonic screwdriver. TIME RUNS OUT. *BAM*
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I vote we call the weekly classic Who TB "THE UNTEMPERED SCHISM!" Ha, I'm kidding. You could, of course, just call it 'The Void: Classic Who'
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Aha! turned it off too soon, just went back and saw it, could be just a nod that we'll be going back to dead doctor by the lake in act 2, or something more sinister do you think?
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Does it have to have the words Talk / Doc / Back? If not, then why dont you call the weekly talkback "The Medusa Cascade" or the "Crucible"? Also, mid season finale was FUCKING AWESOME. Of course she's amy and rorys child, of course.....silly me for not thinking of it before.....fare thee well talkbackers. Or Medusa Cascade participants.....
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Indeed. We are so very, very nice to each other. Sometimes even when SGU IS mentioned. I have not seen DocLover for a while either. I mean dickholder... or... whatever his name was. The Code: 1. Never spoil en episode unless the DocBack has a warning already. 2. Always welcome newcomers with open arms and greetings. 3. Disagree. Often. Then forget it and say cheers the next time you run into the one you disagree with. 4. Encourage the watching of older Who. 5. Jellybabies for everyone. 6. Always come back and post, even if the DocBack is off the top talkbacks list. 7. Appreciate Merrick. Often. 8. Do everything you can to spread Doctor Who to those who have not seen it or have wrong impressions about it. 9. Remember that criticism can be a kind of love. 10. Try to keep a constructive, positive attitude. And when this is impossible, do your best to avoid name-calling. Get some rest and when you feel better, perhaps we will meet on the field of battle and we will destroy you for the glory of the Sontaran empire.
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I don't get all of the complaints here, I've been watching Dr. Who since I was a kid on local PBS, and frankly it's never been as consistently good as it is now under The Moff'. The fact that there is even an over-arching structure that has developed over multiple series under the direction of one writer is something to be lauded regardless of the occasional off episode. The fact that the River reveal wasn't an epiphany is contrary to the opinion of some, further proof of a steady hand and good writing; could you see it coming? yes, of course because it was the natural progression for the story and the details as presented. It's been obvious that River and Amy were connected from Amy's introduction and pulling some random B.S. out of left field just to surprise the web forum pundits who had collectively guessed every possible outcome would have been bad writing ala lost introducing key characters like the man in black and Jacob late in the third act. The elegance of Moff's solution is fantastic and opens up great new possibilities for the show and it's mythology without cheating in the typical RTD fashion ala the Master and Gallifrey's half ass return in The End of Time. Of course River will kill Rory, and knowing that it's coming will only make it more poignant, in particular after all of his "near misses". Frankly the show needs his death and it's fallout to remain viable, and I think Moff knows this. Further, do we really need an asexual Peter Pan version of the Doctor, static and unchanging? I myself don't; and River is a great solution to that. We already know he loses her, and they both know they're living on borrowed time; it's touching and tragic, and her ability to regenerate, which I imagine comes with some strings (familiar and otherwise) means that their relationship will having shifting dynamics as well as faces. The potential that they have children, and the ramifications of that or a new breed of Time Lord that have varied mythical or political relations to The Doctor is a natural evolution of the character, and in my opinion, eventually all of this will lead us justifiably to a new "old" Doctor, and a few years down the road, relieve us of the need for a Doctor cut from the vaguely romantic hero cloth. Finally for the small minority that have issues with the age difference or some kind of imagined immorality based on his relationship with River, the first time he met her was as an adult woman, so the notion that he may take care of her for a while at intervals as an infant or child is not really so different from Benjamin Button, it's a metaphor and a tragedy, and the only way to really explore something like this with a character like the doctor without it becoming cheap.
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76 Totter's Lane! About as classic as it gets haha.
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When she basically blames the whole mess on the doctor being an enemy to all of those villians. Well he wouldn't be an enemy to them if he didn't have to constantly save the Earth from destruction from those same villians. If he stayed out of it, there would be no Earth as we know it. She made it sound like he just messed around with these bad guys and made them afraid of him for no reason other then his amusement.
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11. Always bring a Toblerone to the party. Toblerones are good ;)
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I love New Who and have seen every episode. I pay close attention at the time of watching, but don't have the DVDs and don't remember every little detail (or some big details) years later. It's different if it's just the previous week. Also, the skeleton is surely just a tease to remind us that the Doctor will die. It was well-made so I expect to see it again about a month before the restart. Might this mean there's a 200-year-gap in the story at some point while the Doctor goes crusading on his own? Presuming future Doc wasn't lying about his age so as not to worry Amy quite so much about his coming death, of course...
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http://www.youtube.com/user/CBBCiplayer3
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ROFL , yes. A crime to leave that out.
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in 4 parts.
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that Sontaran line when he hears the Doc show up, is fucking classic. I literally Laughed Out Loud at that one.
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Me too. Heck, almost all his lines were fall-down funny. "when I shall crush the life from your worthless human form...... try and get some rest..." ROFLMAO!!
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"but you must never tell him" lol.
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"that's a whole different birthday" I didn't catch that before. I must have still been laughing at the Stevie Line.
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I'll be back. Later.
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Strax's (the warrior turned nurse) deathbed moment with Rory (the nurse turned warrior) and how it all kinda meshed with the Doctor/Warrior theme.
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Until the next Docbacks...speaking of which, Merrick, what will be the first classic episodes on your list? Maybe we ALL could watch them before you review (give us some notice as to what they are), and then we can really give ya a docback (yes, I haven't watched a LOT of the classic episodes since the 80's, so I'm prone to forgetting things that have happened in episodes).
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But, I was just hoping a little bit that the River reveal wouldn't be the obvious choice. Now that it's true she's their daughter I'm fine with it and it works, we still have things that need to be answered about her. It was funny how they did trick us again with the Flesh baby
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I didn't see it! Anyone have a screenshot or something? I completely missed it
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June 4, 2011, 9:37 p.m. CST
River's nonsense at the end: Not really if you think about it
by mistergreen
Those soldiers are humans, earthlings probably. The Doctor must have done something pretty bad to have humans go after him.
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River Song keeps leaving, but is always returned. Is it just a prison or something else ? Perhaps containment as in containment suit. Someone jumping around in time, plus an unusual birth and early childhood, may have strange chronal-energy. Is the storm part of the cage or does the cage contain a potential storm ?
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This episode blew me away. I already knew who River was. I share the disappointment about rising and falling. 45 minutes is too short for what Moffatt's putting out. BUT, Every actor hit it exactly 100% perfect. Green Lizard and her Kato-ina, the Sontaran, Dorium, Lorna Bucket (if that's not a Big Hint Name nothing is), Rory, Amy, and the Doctor. The direction and editing were tight, the FX beyond anything we've seen on Who before, and the horror of the flesh baby was exactly what it needed to be. Also ... what it says in Gallifreyan on the crib obviously means more than what River let on. And I don't have the foggiest what that is. So many hints dropped all over the place about so many plot arcs it makes you dizzy. And ... this episode had that indefinable quality that only comes when the writing hits its absolute peak. If the rest of this season can keep this up ... we are very lucky Whovians indeed.
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wow.
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So, can the truth behind who River killed be as simple as: 1) when asked if she could regenerate, the Doctor wasn't sure. 2) We know the girl is in the life support suit of some sort. 3) the Doctor talks to her, if it is her in the suit, on the beach before she is shot. What if the Doctor knows she is dying and realizes she doesn't have the power to regenerate and makes her kill him to use is own regeneration power so she can regen? Then the "killing a good man" will be with her from being a child.
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so now we know that river song is really melody pond and that words have meaning because of actions but the doctor must save melody...because she becomes river so what cliffhanger and all those people died for nothing
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why do you bother...she is wildly popular in britain...which is why they keep bringing her back so give it up already
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It was the Doctor's crib. The name on the crib was his, before he chose the name "Doctor" at whatever ceremony Timelords take on their names. It was pointed out that Timelords don't forget. Baby River thus remembers seeing the words. She reads Galifreyan. I can guess that River becomes the Doctor's Protoge. As she is a Time lord and can regenerate I imagine they'll be swapping rivers just like they swap doctors. The Bad guys are turning baby river into a weapon to kill the doctor. I would Imagine some kind of programming. This she succeeds at. (episode 1 this season)
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A few posts back from yours I posted a link to a place you can watch it.
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Loved that part, seems like a great guy who should be used as a performer out of makeup. By the way, does anyone know if there's a place where they list all of the songs they use in Confidential? And they use a LOT of songs.
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I think my head just broke my pillow. G'nite Docbackers. Love ya all.
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. . .how the focus has shifted from creating strong single episodes to creating a larger, complex mythology. I mean, I love having a complex mythology to think about and discuss--it certainly made Fringe better, and it gave Lost lots of longevity. But the danger of creating a complex overarching mythology is that it means you're pigeonholed into fitting everything into that mythology, rather than taking advantage of the creative freedom that single, stand-alone episodes allow. And that's shown through quite a bit in S6, methinks. Think about Living Flesh/Almost People. It was all a set up for a giant plot twist. Then think about Good Man Goes to War--another series of events merely to support a big reveal. I feel like the series is starting to struggle because everything is pointing to this mythology, instead of the mythology elevating the series. I mean, think about the best episodes of S5--Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice, 11th Hour, Vincent and the Doctor. . .all of them were pretty much standalone episodes, where creative freedom allowed interesting ideas and strong character moments to flourish. This was especially true with SM's Girl in the Fireplace and Blink back in the RTD era. Now, I'm just looking at the episode I saw and I'm feeling bummed. Great, all that stuff happened and the Doctor did something sort of amazing. What does that accomplish, and how does that drive the story forward, aside from revealing a secret that's been teased for 2 years? I mean, the episode was okay. I kind of wished it was a 2-parter, because they could have put so much more in there. And I wished River hadn't said the whole "so much lower" line since he neither went high nor low. I'm just. . .feeling very blase and tired about the whole thing. Or maybe the idea of an entire summer without Doctor Who is just making me grumpy. I don't know.
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This episode had a real Farscape and Blakes 7 vibe going. Blakes 7 for the cheesy villain with the eye patch. Farscape for the FX and the fat male Zhaan. I'm so glad they revealed who River Song is, although they haven't revealed how she learned the doctors name. I assume she learned gallifrean and the doctors name is on the side of the crib. Anyway, strong showing. I'm not a fan of Noffets gimmicky episodes like Blink. My favorite new Who episodes are the big epic ones with different races and returning characters. Spoiler for title of next episode: I'm not sure how the Doctor know that Hitler has the baby, but I guess he picked the cheesiest villain in human history to match that of the eye patch chick. Dr. Who shouldn't be split into two halves but I'll live with it.
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"CRINGEWORTHY gay bit." There was a lot of hetero stuff on the show too. Is that also cringeworthy?
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I don't think it's the Doctor's name on the crib. I think the Doctor wrote Melody Pond's name on the crib, in Gallifreyan. And River is getting him to see that it can also read "River Song." The reason I think so is that River tells Amy that she would be able to read it if the TARDIS translated Gallifreyan, but since it doesn't she shows her the prayer leaf instead. The implication is that the crib and the prayer leaf say the same thing.
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There have been moments when the portentious comments from River have well over sold whats going on. The Lawrence Miles ( spit!!!) claim about this is unfortunately valid. One clunker last night was immediately after the Doctor left , when Amy asked River who she was, we had to get the whole " look at the cot" shit for dramatic effect...Just TELL HER !!! I do think it all does tend to come together as a whole at the end of the season but for me there hasn't been enough standalone goodness this season. Its been side-tracked by a story arc that isn't really delivering with last night being the major disappointment. Whilst I love all the speculation generated by the mysteries, and particularly you Hornorsilk, we have got to face the fact that non of the intricate and fabulous scenarios that people use to fill in the mysterious gaps, ever come to pass. The answer is usually more mundane. Whats happened last night is that the have essentially stolen a good mid part of a season that could potentially have had a couple of standalone stories in, and used it to remind us of the ongoing mystery whilst pretending something big was happening. But the Battle of Demons Run, The Doctor rising higher than ever before (hmm capturing an asteroid or re-booting the entire universe ?), then falling further ( for 10 seconds until River shows him it will all turn out right in the end) was just hyperbole. I'm really waxing hot and cold on this season, I do think that folk are giving credit for ideas that are in their head tather than what Moff is actually delivering. The proof will be in the meal thats eventually delivered not the over-hyped glossy menu that we all seem to be reading. Matt Smith is still ace though.
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I'm fine with an overarching mythology, as long as it's balanced by standalone stories. My favourites have always been the episodes with quiet, thoughtful moments with less hyperbole in terms of plot. So all of Moffat's episodes before he introduced River Song, The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, Gridlock and Human Nature/Family of Blood. My immediate reaction to Moffat as showrunner was hugely positive with the expectation of more of such standalones. I didn't expect him to basically extend one of his timey-wimey plots over an entire season which won't come together until the season is done. I would far prefer a gimmicky episode than a gimmicky season. This is why I share 2leggedfreak's disappointment at the mid-season break effectively doing away with 2 standalone episodes in favour of a mythology-arc 2-parter. If the season really must be one long mythology-arc, surely it would flow better without the break? So much detail will be forgotten by the audience during the break. 2leggedfreak is also correct that much of what is hinted at never comes to pass. We most likely will never find out under what unique circumstances the Doctor would tell someone his true name (showing his cot to someone who can read Gallifrean wouldn't seem to cover it). We certainly won't find out if he and River have children at some point. It will be hinted at, but confirming it would be a narrative dead end. The Doctor marrying River would also be a dead end as she would need to become a permanent companion (which won't happen). All of this is just fodder to fuel fan speculation. I'm still waiting to find out about Captain Jack's missing years, for God's sake!
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That's how I interpreted the scene at first as well. It seemed that River was saying that the leaf would say the same thing as the crib, but that Gallifreyan writing wouldn't translate. However, the explanations above make a lot more sense. It was pretty poor direction/editing. But the question remains as to why (script-wise) there was writing on the cot at all. No writing would have avoided confusion. So why did Moffat put it there? Purely so that River would know his true name? That would seem to contradict The Silence In The Library. Maybe it has greater significance. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it
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Why did she wait around for a month after the baby was born to spring a trap which wasn't really a trap? Why not just take the baby back in time straight away? If Eyepatch has access to time travel and all that is needed to create a Time Lord is conception while travelling through time, why go to the effort of stealing Melody rather than breeding a new Time Lord during time travel? A possible explanation for both of these could be that Eyepatch had developed time travel, but needed Time Lord DNA for it to work (in much the same way as time vortex energy revived the Dalek). She then took a month to get it working. Except that, in order to kidnap Amy, it would seem that time travel was necessary in the first place. Anyway, these are just ponderings and not serious questions. These are minor plot holes that can be explained away (although I don't expect them to be explained in the show itself). The real question that I do have is this: Do the Doctor and Rory still have implants in their hands to tell them when they've had an encounter with the Silence? Amy clearly doesn't, since it seems her Ganger had the implant and that has now been destroyed. I'm just waiting for our first indication of the Silence returning is a red light in Rory's hand beginning to flash...
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Cringeworthy gay bit. I wasn't bothered so much by that as by a slight worry that with that in the show and with the spitfires in space, Moff was basically putting the fingers up to complainers and turning into an arrogrant fucker like RTD was with his "Ming Mong" comments when anybody dared criticise.
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To a series of episodes where you can just watch the first 5 minutes and the last 5 and you haven't missed much. There's so much stalling in every episode now. I prefer Smith and Gillan to Tennant and am a Moffat fan in general but I miss one or two things about the RTD era. The kind of episodes like where they'd go back and meet someone like Agatha Christie or Queen Elizabeth and things got slightly slower and down to earth for a while.
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Don't confuse the name of the next episode as being where she is at. It only means when and where we will next see the show start up.
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Moffat has said that he wants more people to watch regularly rather than dipping in and out. So having one big ongoing story makes sense in that regard. The problem with this approach is that if people get tired of the story, they will get tired of the show and stop tuning in altogether. This may partly explain the decline in BSG's ratings as it went on. If a show is episodic, you may not like this weeks episode but you may still tune in next week for something different. Like a sketch show, you come to expect hit-and-miss. With one ongoing arc, it becomes hit *or* miss. I admit that the ongoing format works best for some shows (particularly cable). I just don't think Doctor Who is one of them. Since it returned, the best-loved episodes seem to have been the standalone stories by Moffat. So it's disappointing for me that, since he became showrunner, Moffat himself has only written two standalone episodes - one of them a Christmas special. Ongoing stories also make individual episodes less rewatchable. There are plenty of episodes of Who and Trek that I'm happy to rewatch as classics. But I'm not tempted to go back and rewatch individual episodes of BSG because they wouldn't make much sense out of context. And, although I love it, I wouldn't want to rewatch the entire series - purely because of time.
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The darkest hour was being told by someone the Doctor cares for (River Song) that he is becoming like the Daleks. Remember, the fear of the Daleks is what would bring people together. The Doctor knows now, even if he is doing good, he is just like a Dalek -- causing people to come together against the threat they see out of the Doctor. And they do have reasons to be afraid. The Doctor manipulates and often does things which have consequences beyond his expectation. He took down one Prime Minister to allow the Master to come into power (as one example). Waters of Mars, of course, is another which hints at this. But it really is Davros and his words to the Doctor which is coming up to me. River said the same thing as Davros, and this time it hit home. He really is going from healer to warrior. And we all know, there will be a time which this fully manifests itself as The Valeyard.
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Do we really know what the trap was about? She wanted the Doctor _there_ for a reason. What reason? Maybe she got DNA from him, now, too. So she has DNA from two different Time Lords. And she has control over the flesh. What could she do with all of that, now?
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Dalek Master Plan War Games Trial of a Time Lord. I think too many people treat others as stupid. They are not. Soap operas would never work if the theory people give against arcs is true. However, I think we can have a mix of arcs and non-arcs. And I think we will have it...
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Its not a matter of treating people as if they were stupid. Its a matter of delivering something of substance. I really didn't see any substance in yesterdays episode and in fact far less than I was expecting. Again all the indicators were that River would do something awful to the Doctor and then we would find out who she is..instead it was a happy ending. I,m having a right old moan here, but still love the show...I just think Moffatt isn't delivering on his promises. The aim is always over deliver to your customers so why set yourself up to under-deliver by using ridiculous portents that actually don't add up to much.
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She did do something which hurt the Doctor quite a bit. She told him off and showed him what he was becoming. But... are we to assume this is the whole of what she did? It could be, but I doubt it.
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As I said above, I don't mind arcs as long as they're balanced by standalones. In the first 5 seasons of New Who, the balance between one-offs, two-parters and 'mythology' episodes felt about right to me. For me, the balance has now tipped too far in the direction of mythology arcs. Mainly because the introduction of the mid-season break has denied us two standalone episodes in favour of a cliffhanger. If the break is a way to move Doctor Who to the autumn then this balance should be restored. (By the way, I credit the audience with a great deal of intelligence. I believe they're capable of following a complex story over a number of episodes. But the most intelligent episodes of all, for me, have been the standalone stories which really delve into moral and emotional issues for the characters rather than needing to serve up big shocks, cliffhangers and foreshadowing. Soaps handle arcs well with popularity because they're on all year round and become a habit. Which is not an option for Doctor Who.)
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My guess is that though we see her kill the doctor in "The impossible Planet", she kills the flesh version, and that's really not dramatic enough for the build up. I hope I am wrong. I am more concerned that the more we know about the doctor (which I've been against, since watching the 1970's Tom baker Galiffrey eps), the least interesting he becomes, the more domestic he becomes, which basically means to me that he becomes less of "the Doctor". Not that my opinion is important.
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June 5, 2011, 6:08 a.m. CST
I think I should make it clear that I still love the show
by supertoyslast
As mythology arcs go, the current one is great. It's just that I love standalones more. After being a little disappointed by seasons 4 & 5 and seeing my passion for the show wane as a result, my faith was restored by The Doctor's Wife. It was my favourite episode since Blink and I would prefer to see more of that kind of thing. I know plenty of people prefer the arcs and I'm not saying that they're wrong to do so. I'm just trying to examine and explain my preference for standalones.
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Steven Moffat did say that a character dies in the opening and that they're not cheating. That character is really dead. So, although a Ganger would be obvious, I think it was the Doctor we saw die. How Moffat gets round his death without cheating is the current big puzzler. However, it may be possible if Rory is the 'good man' that River kills, that he is a Ganger.
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That's what I expected too. Possibly I'm misremembering again, but River has always seemed to look back/forward in dread to the day when the Doctor would find out who she was and everything would change. I don't see that a whole lot has changed and the happy-ish ending seemed (to me) tacked on as a result.
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But I think I am well prepared for Time Can Be Rewritten.
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That's the only way I see out of it too. Clearly, for the arc to work, we have to once again reach the point where the Doctor is shot. How things are changed or death is avoided from that point, I cannot guess.
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...but not *what* she is; I'm guessing Rory & Amy aren't going to get their daughter back as a baby, and that River's badass chick training carries on, because if she was loved by Rory & Amy in the 21st century it's unlikely she would end up doing the things she has done later... Nice set up for the Cybermen return later, too...
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And the surviving Doctor is a stabilised Ganger then it's entirely possible that the regeneration limit has been answered. Perhaps DocGanger is Doc 1?
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Remember the alternative reality clips we have already seen. The thing is, who is rewriting it and why and how are they doing it? River Song, I believe, is still involved with it, and she is the trap for the Doctor. In ways more than his death. If you have read the Dune series, think about what happened in Heretics of Dune with Duncan Idaho. I think we are going to see THAT happen with the Doctor and River Song.
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It's a great episode - except the doctor did not fall. It would have been so simple for them to simply end it when Amy's child dissolved. That would have been the perfect "fall farther" and left us all reeling. Before that they could have had the Doctor find the prayer leaf and translate it without River Song's big speech. That would have given them time to have River off on some kind of shenanigans apparently in the employ of the big bad - whoever that is. My money's still on Omega. And thereby seeming to betray the Doctor ... making us guess about her real intentions. Instead we had the Doctor and River having a flirty secret conversation and lightening the tone all round. Blowing the gaff. The Moff Lies.
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Either what I said above is it; or it is it with -- what we see when the show comes back. I can see the Doctor dying is a part of his biggest fall. Or, he does something crazy in trying to get River Song back!
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What if The Doctor is wrong, and that River ISNT the girl in the spacesuit? We know that River and the Doctor get together and must have done the beast with two backs at one point in the future? How about another child? The great thing about Who, is the amount of loose ends that are out there regarding characters and companions. If I was a writer, I would be ITCHING to bring back someone like Susan, Romana, or even The Meddling Monk.
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Solving crimes and devouring criminals, one case at a time!
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Did anybody else think the voice of the monk here sounded a lot like Alex Kingston/River Song?????
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June 5, 2011, 8:16 a.m. CST
Time can be re-written??? Oh yes, it certainly can....(spoilerish theories)
by sam jacksons wig
Just how fucked up it will get? I reckon that something cataclysmic is on the way. I also think that time "bleeds" and "seeps" into one incoherent mess that sees several periods in Earths history sharing the same time line. Just why is anyones guess, but I'm banking on the laws of time and space being traversed once too often, and the Doc having to kickstart the known universe by influencing the events of the Big Bang. Hmmmmmm..... Oh, and Omega? Nah......
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June 5, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST
And I take back my tub of shite statement about the title of the next episode....
by sam jacksons wig
...I really didn't think thy would call it "let's kill Hitler" when I first heard. Oh well...... at leat we know what the fucking ep is about then.
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The "there aren't two of him" comment by Rory is one of those throw away lines that piques my interest. Also intrigued by the Silurian--is she in a timeline where they and humanity live in harmony ?
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Looked awesome.
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June 5, 2011, 8:28 a.m. CST
throwmetheidol -(and fellow DocBackers) I've heard there are alot more "stand alone episodes" in the second half of this season. Should appease some of the haters....
by sam jacksons wig
...personaly I think the Moff has balls of steel in wanting to actually tell us all a story. Not just aseries of adventures, but an actual mythologhe has been putting together for a very long time. What I believe he is saying is "Hey, Who-vians.... please have a treat on me. Not just a series of random entertaining stories, but something a little deeper and causes you to think whilst enjoying. I'm harking back to the seasons of old, where you had one continuing story for 28 minutes a week over 4 to 10 weeks, but I'll also give you stand alone eps that I will also leave clues as to my current arc." And having the skill to pull it all off whilst delivering quality television week after week after week is nothing short of stunning. And just imagine how these DocBacks would look if all we did week after week was talk about a current episode. To have this chance and to live in this time and to see what we are seeing is a priviledge. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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you said it mate.
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I greatly prefer Matt as the Dr and I have liked Moffat's work since I first saw Coupling 10 years ago. If and when I criticize this season now and then it is truly reluctantly.
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I haven't seen any haters on this forum so don't start with trying to disparage anybody that doesn't get excited about the latest episode. Were you a hater when the Doctors wife aired and you couldn't understand everybody's enthusiasm ? No
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That interested me too. Seems like a throwaway line to set up a gag. But it could be something different. How could there be two versions of the same Doctor? I wondered if 'Space' might be a clue, but that was the same Doctor in the same place at slightly different times. If he and River had a child, it could conceivably look just like him. But that wouldn't be the 'real' Doctor dying. Whatever it is, I'm sure there will be clues to look out for and it won't just be pulled out of the bag at the last minute. Another thing in that scene interested me. River seems upset to see Rory dressed as the centurion. He even asks 'what's wrong?' So what was wrong? At first I assumed that she knew Rory would soon by killed by her. But another suggestion I like is her knowledge that up until that point (for her) Rory knew who she was and from that point on would cease to recognise her. I remember that she had a speech at some point about how it would break her heart when she would meet the Doctor and he wouldn't recognise her. Who did she give that speech to? If it was Rory, it would add much poinancy.
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However, it is clear, many do know him and it's always been this way. Some times and places he isn't known, some he is. However, this episode with the war against the Doctor relates to the alliance of the Pandorica. Remember the legend of the Pandorica and who is imprisoned in it...
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There were seven episodes in the first half of the season. 3 stories were stand alone (one being a two-parter). There are six episodes in the second half of the season. The first will, in part, deal with the cliffhangers from this episode - so not standalone. The finale will obviously deal with the mythology arc. That leave four episodes that could be standalone. One will be Mark Gatiss. Another by Toby Whithouse (of Being Human). So I'm very happy with that. But one more standalone story in this half of the season is hardly a "lot". Especially when the overall number of standalone stories in the whole season is down. I agree that mythology episodes give a lot to think about and discuss. But there is more to thought-provoking storytelling than just throwing up a number of questions that may or may not be answered at some point. The best standalone stories can be just as deep and rich (and, for me, more so). Human Nature/Family of Blood gave me a lot more to think about than A Good Man Goes To War.
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June 5, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST
2legged- onc again taken completely out of context....
by sam jacksons wig
Not haters of the episode my friend, but the haters of a) the split and b) the lack of stand alone episodes. I respect the fact that everyone has their own personal tastes and that post had nothing whatsoever to do with it. As I've said before, people can like what they like and have no wish to get into a fucking V'shael kind of headbanging kind of shit with you, mate.
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June 5, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST
throwmetheidol - didn't call you a hater, nor did I infer you are one. I just addressed the post to you mainly. Should I not have?
by sam jacksons wig
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June 5, 2011, 9:18 a.m. CST
To clear things up- my "hater" comment has fuck all to do with the latest episode. I respect you all, my fellow DocBackers, and your tastes and comments...
by sam jacksons wig
...it was to do with a lack of stand alone episodes and the mid season split. Hopefully that clears things up and we will have no more mis-judged posts. My respect and love always. SJW.
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... they just don't kiss Moffat's voluminous rear end to the extent some others here enjoy.
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Holy Roman emperor, Winston Churchill?? Buckingham Senate?? The worlds gone MADDD!
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June 5, 2011, 9:30 a.m. CST
Here's A Link To A Rather Intriguing (And Officially Sanctioned) Spoiler For The Second Half Of The Season / Series
by Merrick
This clip has been online for some time and I'm surprised more people haven't seen it/mentioned it. A while back, Meredith Vieira from NBC's TODAY SHOW visited the DOCTOR WHO Set in U.K. At about 4:06 into her piece, there's a quick segment which reveals a rather fascinating glimpse at what's in store for us later in this Series/Season. This is *not* a pointed "___ dies" or "___ event happens" kind of spoiler. This is a "Wow - how the hell does the show get *there*?!" kind of spoiler. It's here - at about 4:06 - http://tinyurl.com/6fjo2jp There are also teenier spoilers peppered throughout this piece, but nothing that wouldn't eventually be evidenced through episode previews I should think. Again, bear in mind that whatever's in this piece had to be cleared with The Powers That Be and the clip is also mirrored on BBC America's website - http://tinyurl.com/5t4np4k If someone else has posted this already and I missed it, I apologize.
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So...The doctor sacrifices himself to allow a young River Song in life support regenerate by forcing the energy out of his body and dying before it can return...Song regenerates and is now a half human Time Lord into.....the 8th Doctor! "Half human comment explained."...and we get Paul McGann! haha
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Well loved it! If there is a second tardis though, what if the "Aunt" in the eleventh hour is River, it is the sort of way you could explain Alex Kingston being around, looking after Amy in HER TARDIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the reference to another birthday made me wet myself :) brilliant docback but i am way behind catching up, so if this repeats anything :P
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TIA/DOTM story arc COTBP/TDW stand alone (insterspersed with litle trinkets) TRF/TAP/AGMGTW- story arc. Why do you think he took Amy to see the flesh? That makes two by my reckoning that had no tie in with the main storyline (yes- the flesh DID.) Second half? It has been stated that both eps 12 and 13 are completely differenrt animals that whilst lead into each other are completely different. 9, 10 and 11 are standalone, and whilst ep 8 carries on from 7, it's not in the way you may think. That makes 4 by my count- 100% more than the first section, so yeah, alot!!!! Take care, mate.
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June 5, 2011, 10 a.m. CST
How can you disgree over a mid season split or lack of standalone episodes without a very good reason?
by sam jacksons wig
And a passionate one I might add? "I disagree with a midseason split and a lack of standalone episodes...." "Why's that, then?" "I refuse to kiss Moffats voluminous arse is why!!!!!!!" WTF????? No, you disagree because you have a very strong belief to the contrary, or just just plain fucking hate the idea. That's human nature; most of us don't disagree because we wish to be contrary bastards. Whichever is fine...but to state it's because you refuse to kiss Moffs arse is ridiculous, I'm afraid to say. I am not talking episode specific, what don't you get about that??? Oh, and if you are inferring that I would kiss Moffs arse....I'm puckering up now and applying lipsalve. The guy is a fucking genius and does things that most of us either dream about or wank off in the bathtub over...... Discussion over and well and truly out. No more please. (jesus christ......)
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To respond to your comments in the other Docback, please go back and re-read what I wrote originally. At no point did I say that *any* of the actors who played The Doctor were anything other than 'absolutely marvellous'. I was merely implying that the BBC were losing interest in the show in the mid-to-late 80's (thanks to those who were running the Corporation at the time - you know who I'm talking about) and that began to reflect in the shows. It was unfortunate that this happened for the actors in the role at the time, and in no way reflects in their acting ability. Any child walking into a playground with a Doctor Who backpack in the late 80's would have been mercilessly teased by his or her classmates. Not so today. My kids can happily parade around the playground with all kids of merchandise and it's just as cool as having a piece of Manchester United merchandise. That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry to see that you missed it completely, unlike seph_j who hit the nail on the head straight away.
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June 5, 2011, 10:02 a.m. CST
Shibs, you're always welcome mate, no matter how late you arrive to the party.
by sam jacksons wig
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June 5, 2011, 10:05 a.m. CST
Curry- seeing McGann again would be a huge geekgasm!!! If only!!!!! Hoi, BBC- give him a ring!!!
by sam jacksons wig
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River said "it takes a while for the tardis translation" or something to that effect, I assumed then that the translation was taking place and ongoing so it didn't matter that the Tardis was gone. Jeez you guys read a lot into such a little, sometimes it is just out of a simple lack of understanding the mechanics of visual storytelling or the realities of plot devices, dramatic devices or the process of editing. Seriously how many extra Tardis' have you proposed? The car the Doc was lying on, Amy's house, a beach hut (although you never know on that one but I'm 80% sure it isn't), what next? The Oval Office? Buckingham Palace/Senate? Kevorian's eyepatch? Amy's snatch (fair enough it probably is bigger on the inside than it seems on the outside)? And while I'm having a whinge how come so many people come on here, obviously don't read the talkback and then go about pronouncing theories and "spoilers" like they've just thought of them when they haven't? I've seen mine repeated countless times. I came up with the river shooting the doc to get his regeneration powers ages ago and in fact on the night after TIA was shown I asked where the regen energy went to so that could've been what whoever was in the suit wanted. Sigh. Rant over. F
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...actually did a much better job at juggling the whole monster-of-the-week format with the overarching mythology format. I do want to be clear--I like the concept of introducing a mythology in Doctor Who, so long as its done well. TIA/DotM did it well. Flesh/Almost People, and to a lesser extent, this episode, was less stellar--again, not because they were making a kickass story for the sake of the story, but because they're focusing less on making a kickass story, and more on trying to fit all these disparate puzzle pieces together. If anyone's watched Fringe (not sure how popular it is in England/Britain), they managed to pull it off beautifully for the first half of the 3rd season. They had stand-alone episodes, but those episodes always referenced they greater mythology the show was building up. For example, the predicting math person episode managed to establish that Olivia was starting to realize she didn't belong in Earth-2, while still delivering a super-strong episode. And the Marionette episode was creepy and moving, yet still managed to give Olivia the chance to make the statement that she was traumatized by having her life invaded and taken over by Fauxlivia. It's not that I want stand-alone episodes. I just feel like SM is sacrificing good storytelling for the sake of more questions and big plot-twists and surprising reveals. Kind of like Lost, and we all know how that ended. *shudders*
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When I say 'story arc' episodes I mean the ones which deal *primarily* with the main story arc - not ones which have a tangential link at the end. So The Rebel Flesh two-parter works as a standalone story with a link to the main arc. Gangers were a relevant plot device in much the same way as the fob watch from Human nature/Family of Blood was a relevant plot device to the main arc in season 3. So, for me, I count The Rebel Flesh two parter as a standalone story. Please don't take one of the few precious standalones away from me! In any case, I couldn't describe 2 more as a 'lot' more, since I tend to work in units and not percentages. Also, I don't hate the split, merely dislike it. I also enjoy the main story arc - but prefer the standalone stories.
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First, really, really enjoying this talkback - though I don't know what it says about me that I agree with both (well, most of) the praises and the criticisms everyone has written about this season and episode. Now, could someone please hold my hand and walk me through/slowly explain something to me: why did the Doctor react to River's 'big reveal' the way he did? I could understand joy, happiness, and relief with the knowledge that, ultimately, she would be (relatively) safe/unharmed/etc., but why the Doctor's euphoric or giddy reaction? Thanks.
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If you are going to reply to my post don't mix it in with someone else's opinion and reply to both without making it clear that you are doing so. You might come over as a fool. Your onanistic habits are of no interest to me, or anyone else, I would hope. Picasso was a genius. Einstein was a genius. Beethoven was a genius. Moffat is a writer. Sometimes a rather good one. The fact you admit to having that level of love for his work would indicate to me you have left your critical faculties at the door. For the record I can say or think whatever I damn want, within the rules of the forum. No-one died and left you in charge, sunshine. Now jog on.
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June 5, 2011, 10:22 a.m. CST
Merrick- maybe the reason it hasn't been mentioned previously...
by sam jacksons wig
...is due to us not wanting to give away massive spoilers (sanctioned or unsanctioned) after an agreement a few DocBacks ago. Too many things were being leaked (I myself leaked a few of them, to my shame..) and lots got pissed. Spoiler warnings started being ignored and clouded and in the end some didn't give a fuck anymore. Things basiclly got out of hand. Then Moff publicly stated he was pissed at the spoilers getting out. So, apart from a few little tidbits here and there we mainly stick to theoretical spoilers. There are individuals who frequent these TBs that want nothing spoiled for them. there are others that don't mind. In an effort to cater to both we just try and stick to what we THINK we know. Believe me, I (along with others) know far too much than is godfor us and it impacts the dynamics of the show. I would have much rather remained ignorant. Ah well........
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Churchill's mammoth what? :P I need to have that as a new screenname. In any case, the slightly spoilery video points to major timey-wimey/time being rewritten/alternate universe stuff. Presuming it is related to the Death of the Doctor arc and not something completely different as suggested by SJW. I find it difficult to believe that Moffat wouldn't write the conclusion to the Death of the Doctor arc himself. So it should be dealt with in ep8, ep13 or not in this season at all. (The Christmas Special?) Beyond that would seem too long to wait for a resolution to a teasing bit of foreshadowing in the first episode. Whatever happens in ep13, it looks like the Clerics/Headless Monks/affiliates will be involved due to the mention of the Holy Roman Emperor. Assuming the dialogue was genuine, of course.
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June 5, 2011, 10:28 a.m. CST
man_of_vertue - it wasn't just a lack of interest, it was also internal battles.....
by sam jacksons wig
...and subject matter. The amount of complaints from WHO fans during the Colin Baker era due to excessive violence (for the time) and fucked up storylines (cannabalism, anyone???) all but killed off the show. By the time poor McCoy hit the screens interest had not just been lost but assassinated. then poor fucking McGann tried his best with a shitty love story and a TV movie made to invade a US market by a desperate BBC and it well and truly backfired. Ergo- the death of TV who for quite some time. (9 years I believe....)
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...if it does mean we will get more stand alone episodes. I do fear for the long term future of WHO if we keep the elongated arc theme the Moff is pushing. He was gleeful in confidential when saying how instead of providing clear answers to mysteries, he prefers his answer to lead to another mystery. That is all fine and dandy but, as others above have said, this approach makes watching random episodes difficult and alienates new viewers. Personally whereas I would have tried to recruit new viewers in the Tennant era (family, workmates etc)-I wouldnt even try now unless they where already sci-fi fans. At present, I am looking forward to this season ending if it wraps up the present arc and we got new companions(s) next season. Note to Moff etc-a different flavour of companion (alien, different time era) next?
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I just took his reaction to mean what you suggest. This Doctor does tend to be excitable, so to know not only that he can save Melody, but that he certainly will, appears to leave him breathless. Also, seeing the 'family' of Rory, Amy and River together must have been pleasing for him. Possibly Moffat was suggesting that we, the audience, should have the same reaction to this news as well :-) But, in a Moffat story, we ignore little things at our peril. It could mean something more than I cannot currently fathom.
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I think The Doc was having a bit of a geekgasm over River's role in his past and future, coupled with the fact that she is safe.
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I think it was a mixture of joy, trepidation and embarrassment that the Doctor would be getting married to Amy and Rory's daughter.
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June 5, 2011, 10:42 a.m. CST
Does anyone besides me want a spinoff series about the Victorian Samurai Silurian and her mousy maid/lover?
by Rebel Scumb
Fighting crime in Victorian england! I liked the episode, but much like most everyone else I saw the twist coming since the impossible astronaut/day of the moon. As soon as bucket gave Amy the prayer leaf I knew how they'd reveal it to. But it didn't detract from my enjoyment. I'm starting to think that the "good man" River killed is Rory.
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He doesn't feel like a creep with River, knowing River has Time Lord DNA in her.
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I'd like to see more answers to what role the Silence has in all of this. We've seen the aftermath of their last encounter with The Doctor and the last encounter itself. What about their first (from their perspective) encounter? More information about this new enemy and why they are using a living weapon to kill the Doc. How they managed to produce technology that can beam a signal into the tardis, and how they managed to make the tardis explode in the last season? That last question poses more. What if River, in later life, unwittingly leaved the Tardis vulnerable? It would take some seriously advanced tech to do so, which leads me to one of my gripes about the new WHO. The Tardis is suppose to be highly advanced, but gets compromised too many times. The Time Lords were supposed to be the top dogs in time travel. So who is now I wonder?
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Count me among those who avoid spoilers and are thankful when others are respectful of that!
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But if the TARDIS isn't there, there is no translation. There has to be a TARDIS there, which is how River Song got there. And it is how translations (which were not happening) suddenly happens. Now, it is clear that the Doctor takes off with a "aha" moment. I think one of those moments is that he knows another self is there... THERE is the TWO DOCTORS birthday reference. He knows he has to go... so his other, older self can emerge.
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I agree, we need to see more of the Silents.
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Don't get me wrong, there were some nice moments and ideas, but that ending sucked, and the episode was largely propelled by random developments not really prefigured in earlier episodes. It felt like tying together elements we'd not been told that happened in some other early season episode arc. Which would be fine, if not for the sense of discontinuity with the last few weeks. The season opener did this too. The guy could get away with writing like this if it were a standalone film, but cramming it into a fifty minute TV cliffhanger is a bit daft. Which gets me onto the nagging feeling I was actually watching a rejected draft of The Phantom Menace. Not necessarily without virtue, but problematic. And man, that ending sucked. Can you explain it a bit louder, I think there's one kid behind the sofa who didn't quite hear you. Oh, and what would be good is if the Headless Monks are The Silence who have chopped their heads off so they're no longer recognisable to the humans who have been instructed to kill them. And they've given their heads to those Cybermen, with their brains showing... I'm sure we'll get plenty of back story on the mythology arc soon enough, by use of time travel devices, it's just tiresome jumbling everything up for the sake of looking clever when it accomplishes the opposite by forsaking the storytelling and character work that would elevate Moffet's good ideas to the level of writing he's capable of. Otherwise what we'll get is an X Files situation where the arcs start to look like bollocks and the stand alone episodes are the real show, only the second tier writers on Doctor Who aren't very good, are they, so the stand alone episodes are going to continue to be hit and miss. And no, having characters appear again out of nowhere is not the same as crafting a narrative across the whole season, even if they get some good lines.
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I thought River had her own way to get about, Time Agent style with a watch/vortex thingie? What I meant about the translation taking time was that the process had started and was being processed by Amy's brain so the Tardis didn't need to be there after it sent the translation to her. F
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Is that not the remains of the Doctor after his 'viking funeral'? After all it takes more than half a can of Petrol to totally consume a human/timelord body, it takes 2+ hours in a gas powered crematorium, and even then the bones have to be smashed up.
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June 5, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST
Was there a preview for the 2nd half of the season/series?
by Rebel Scumb
The torrent I have just says the title for the next episode but there was no preview of things to come. Is there one out there on youtube somewhere or they didn't show anything from the upcoming episodes?
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I don't get the reference.
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Their was only the title of the next episode... And after the credits ended there was the short scene of a skeletal hand with a sonic screwdriver.
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It did seem odd that the translation by the Tardis takes a bit of time - after the Tardis has left. We know from The Christmas Invasion that translation needs a Tardis and a (conscious) Time Lord to work. I thought at the time that there was just a residual effect that took a bit of time. Also, script-wise, the reveal had to take place after the Doctor left. But maybe the Doctor worked out that in his future/her past River gets her own Tardis. After all, he must have trained her to fly one for a reason... Also, I was confused by the line 'River, take them all home'. I wondered how she was meant to do that. In previous stories she has time-hopped a lot, but have we ever actually been told what her mode of transport is? I can't recall.
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... so sorry if I missed it, but did anyone notice where the pirate captain and his son disappeared to?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZw-4O-G6-8&feature=channel_video_title
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Seems both my questions were actually the same question!
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Somebody questioned whether it was a bit silly that Rory could take on the Headless Monks. Just been thinking that one through and maybe Rory being back in the Centurion outfit is there to remind everybody that he's got 2,000 years of experience--not something to be taken lightly !! Also having watched confidential ( which was a bit pants) it was interesting to see that big chunks of the fight scenes filmed for the battle of Demons Run appear to have hit the editing room floor-- shame--Vastra and Jenny look as though they boot bottom.
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Great fun and loads of potential, possibly spoiler thoughts, Demons Run, maybe using the Tarids corridor set wasn't just a re-do, what if it is a Tarids? Ms Bucket, is she Melody at some future point? maybe after each regeneration she forgets what went before, like a new person instead of a continuation? Steven Moffat is a great writer and knows how to have fun, here's to him having load more in the future.
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It says nothing but good about you (and everyone expressing their opinions). I feel the same way. The praise and criticism aired here does not seem to be mutually contradictory. This episode was wonderfully written but had (seemingly) gaping plot holes. It was exhilarating but disappointing (in some ways to some people). Before any debate about split-seasons and mythology arcs, I came here to explore why I started off greatly enjoying this episode but was ultimately left disappointed. And also to consider my feelings about the season thus far. In summary, my thoughts are: The Season: - I love this season. It has reignited my love for Doctor Who - mainly due to The Doctor's Wife reviving my faith in the show. As a result, I can sit back and relax as I watch the story unfold without fear of it being completely underwhelming. - Steven Moffat is the best writer that New Who has had. This Episode: - I loved everything about the first 30 minutes. But, at the end, I was left disappointed because: - The Doctor did not Fall. - Finding out who River Song was did not turn her into an adversary for the Doctor, as all previous mentions of this event had seemed to indicate. This turned a potential interestingly dark cliffhanger into a happy ending (of sorts). - The cliffhanger was in no way 'game changing' for the audience to such an extent that a mid-season break was absolutely necessary. (Even though it did change things, in some ways, for the characters).
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June 5, 2011, 11:30 a.m. CST
Such a nice spirit and focused enthusiasm here. Congratulations.
by Subtitles_Off
Too bad I haven't seen an episode of Dr. Who since Tom Baker eps back in The 70s, because you all are having lots of big fun that I think would be a hoot to participate in.
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mate, you are so right. This is the place to be - I suggest you find yourself a big fat torrent of everything from Chris Ecclestone on, and spend the upcoming VOID months getting up to speed.... then there'll no stopping you come September!
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I don't believe how many people didn't watch until the end of the credits, have you learnt nothing from Marvel films??? lol. Also whenever there's a break or a two parter they usually put the preview at the end not the usual place. F
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That River was a weapon to attack the Doctor and she either killed him or one of his companions and then through some revelation around that moment she realised what "Good Man" he was then had a relationship with his younger selves until her eventual death. But everything she has said in the past seemed to lead to Demons Run being that game changer and it didn't happen. So now the Doctor goes forward into his future knowing exactly who River Song is and why she is , and its very hard to see him getting caught out. .
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the gay marines, and the silurian flicking her tongue out right after her maid say "why do I stay with you?", and then they made awkward eyes at each other. That silurian munches carpet.
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due to the Omega symbol appearing all over in Demons Run, that Melody/River baby will end up being the potential host for the return of Paul M....sorry Omega, due to her timelord DNA at the culmination of the second run of the season. The 'Soldiers of God' in my opinion could be worshiping Omega as a God rather than the God we're used to hearing about and what we're lead to believe they are actually talking about. merrick, if you haven't seen them, i'm referring to the Banished Timelord who is the nemesis in the stories 'The Three Doctors' and 'Arc of Infinity'. Anyways thats just my speculative ramblings to be proved bobbins when Autumn gets here. Is Torchwood on yet? And are we getting a talkback for that as well?
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An outstanding post directed at yours truly- I do salute you, sir! Loquacious, with superb sentence structure, use of synonyms and a perfect blend of metaphor and humor- - Jog On..... HAHAHAHAHA!!! Do you realise, I had NEVER heard that before???? A true use of facetiousness and bon mot!!!! Oh and those metaphors- comparing the genuis of writing TV science fiction to discovering the theory of relativity, the collective works of Pablo Ruiz Picasso- do you know, his cubism periods and late works are actual favourites of mine???? (oops I digress here..), and the composition of a 9th symphony by a deaf piano virtuoso- wow! That was just SO relevant, I extol and commend you!!! Well judged, relevant and so of the time one would think you were a true "porte-parole de la vie" And having that level of love for someones work and leaving critical faculties at the door? My dear sir, I could understand exactly why you would say such a thing! However, as a lover of someones work I find it to be quite the opposite; I am more critical of those things that give me joy when they fail than thing that do not. And "Sunshine"- why I am flattered that you accord me the honour of bringing light into your life. I must be truly sacrosanct. So, in the spirit of this talkback, I have just affirmed, announced...nay- DECLARED exactly as I will. Oh, and no-one put me in charge as we are all equalitarian...but it was SOOOOOO nice of it to have crossed your mind. Jog On.......oh I do so like that!!!!!!!
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don't need to trust rumours for that one
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June 5, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST
moody by nature- you didn't find out, mate. They just "disappeared..."
by sam jacksons wig
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There's about as much chance of Auntie Beeb cancelling the series at the moment as there is Auntie Beeb co producing a series called Stargate:Lancashire. DW has been the BBC's biggest cash cow for the past 48 years through merchandising alone, and it has never been as high in popularity as it is now. Sure it may be rested for a year here and there, and yes, at the moment Season 33 hasn't been comissioned (as far as we've been made aware), but i'd be willing to place any wager you can think of on it not being cancelled.
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You should definitely give the 2005 Who run a go. It's a very choppy series, where it can get pretty awful at times. . .but when it decides to be good, it becomes very good indeed. Episodes like Blink, or Girl in the Fireplace, or Water of Mars, or Human Nature/Family of Blood, or Midnight essentially elevated the series into pure, undiluted geek amazingery. I came into Who with no prior experience or knowledge (I'm a Yank), but I made a point of watching all 5.5 seasons of new Who. And honestly, I have to say it's been one of the most entertaining series I have ever laid eyes on. I think it's become one of my favorite shows of all time. It's seriously that enjoyable.
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Yes.
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As I've said before , Dr Who can be cancelled...BUT IT REGENERATES !! Unlike some series we could mention--mwah ha ha ha Ha !!! Oy Sam, you're in a spikey mood today--had a few shandies ??
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June 5, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST
I also give it my wholehearted endorsement for anyone new to the series
by Rebel Scumb
I started watching in 2008-2009, starting with series 1 on dvd. Before that Dr. Who had always just been the show from when I was a kid that came on after 'Today's special' (Canadian kids program) every night on TVO with the "scary music" and signified my bed time. The few times I dared to watch a bit of it the nightmarishly bizarre imagry quickly made me regret it. But jump ahead 20+ years and it was the only major scifi show I had never really explored before, so I thought I'd give it a go. I was hooked fast. I even love the episodes most people complain about like Slyveen storyline and whatnot. To me its all part of the same campy menagerie. Within a month it had also infected all of my friends, all of whom are now avid whovians.
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I disagree. He let his anger and arrogance seriously misjudge the situation and walked right into a giant obvious trap. The same trap he'd already fallen for. He was humilated by Korvarian. He failed Amy and Rory. And he now knows that their baby is going to be turned into some kind of weapon against him. And although we don't know for sure yet who was in that space suit. We do know at one point yonge River was. AND we also know she is in jail for killing someone important. So quite possibly Korvarian's weapon is a success.
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June 5, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST
Diox: You aren't happy, so you've resolved that no one else can be?
by Rebel Scumb
You do realize that that's almost an exact textbook definition of a mentally and emotionally unstable individual right? When your toys break do you go around smashing everyone else's?
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How do we know young River was in that space suit? Do we know for sure (through the episodes we seen already and not spoilers)that River was the little girl in that orphanage? </p> Also did anyone see the way Amy reacted to the Doctor when he went to console her over the baby being a flesh and really being gone? As if she blamed him for it. The look on his face was horrifying to me, he was shocked. Another Amy point, I have always been a fan of Gillan since she came on this show but IMO this last episode was her best yet, acting wise. She always looks tasty but I think she did her best acting on the show so far in this cliff hanger episode.
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I don't know that she was in the space suit when we saw the suited assailant kill The Doctor. But it is certainly possible. We know that back in the 1960s that young River was in the suit, and it seems to have been designed for her. Its not impossible that she ends up back in it.
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River: "Doctor - the word for healer and wise man throughout the universe. We kept that word from you, you know?"
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Is that the turning point of the story is The Doctor is essentially being berated for everything that has stoked me up on the new series. I Like "Basically, Run" Doctor. I Like "Do I need to repeat the question" Doctor. I Like "Whole armies just run away, and he'd just swagger off to his TARDIS" Doctor. ... And so did River, for that matter, considering the way she rhapsodized about him in the library. But now, the lesson of the day is healer not warrior, and boo, you've scared all the widdle nasty bad guys, and it's all your fault. ...As a Yankee Doodle Dandy, that hits a little close to home, just speaking politically. Frankly, I know you guys love your first Doctor, but Hartnell and his "Please don't kill me, cavemen - I can make fire!" wasn't my cup of tea. I have no interest in revisiting that early plot style.
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At first I thought she said "kept that word from you" which didn't make sense. Rewatching, I think it was "we got that word from you". Meaning 'doctor' meant healer because of the Doctor, but is now coming to mean warrior because of him.
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I think what she said was "We GOT that word from you, you know?" Implying that the term 'doctor' in our culture and others actually is a result of the doctor meddling throughout time and is the reason we call doctors doctors.
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It could be argued he fell a little. Bet 'never fallen so low' suggested something truly devastating. This was not delivered and we actually got a happy ending. As someone pointed out early on, wiping out your own species must be a more significant low. So what we actually got was, for me, disappointing.
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Plotting, scheming, selfish, tricking his colleagues and even considering murder just to get his own way. I'd love to actually see some of that darkness rather than have it alluded to.
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Sublime. Wonderful. Incredible. Insert glowing endorsement here. Any and All glowing endorsements. Yaay Rory!!! I toldja that boy had spunk. Rory is cool, indeed. Brilliant Smith. Meh... Pretty good Amy (still cross with her - still just woman-in-peril baggage) and yeah - loved the Silurian, want more of her. The developing theme of healer/warrior is interesting, (even if it bothers me). In the end, the Sontaran decided to die as a nurse- very touching; liked that. But somebody needs to address the necessity of a warrior as a healer/preventative. Stops owies before they happen. Hopefully 2,000 years has given Rory enough experience to understand this, so he doesn't go all Peter Parker over his dual role.
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June 5, 2011, 2:16 p.m. CST
rosasaks - love the idea about the heads/cybermen!! But i fear a bit TOO much for prime time Saturday family TV???
by sam jacksons wig
I could imagine some little kid holding onto its neck and running out of the living room screaming like a banshee!!!!!! ;)
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It's not "kept," it's "got." And Moffat first suggested that in the 90s.
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I agree about "The fall", even in the new series we've seen the Doctor "fall" lower than that moment, unless the fall is something coming in the second half of the series, which I hope is the case, because otherwise, that was one kinda "meh" point for me. A return to the Hartnell mentality would be kind of neat, but I like that the Doctor has grown since then and is able to do without it.
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For those who missed it (or whose torrent left it out), here's the bit with the skeleton hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqIwEvf8fXQ
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and that was the death of Dorium. I had actually hoped he'd be around for several more episodes. <br> <br> Of course, he might be. I might have missed it when they showed Demon's Run later, but when they first showed it they were quite careful in not putting a date down, the way they did for every other big scene change in the series. So, they're tyring to keep this a little fuzzy as to where we are relative to River's timeline. Does this actually take place after River picked up the vortex manipulator in The Pandorica Opens? If so, this would (probably) put the River we saw here before The Pandorica Opens (but not necessarily before her appearance at the wedding in The Big Bang - that could be entirely out of continuity, and also helps explain some things like how River could have remembered the Doctor, and why she'd bother to show up at Amy's wedding). <br> <br> We are left with the question of who the Headless Monks are (I'd believe it's tied in with the Cybermen; possibly with the silents, but there's probably technology involved in those boxes which presumably hold the Monk's heads, and the Silents don't develop technology - they steal or borrow it (though I suspect their Jedi mind tricks don't work on Cybermen).
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June 5, 2011, 2:34 p.m. CST
As for where the Doctor's going to find the child, it's obvious - and it's not 1969.
by DoctorTom
Sexy told them "The only water in the forest is the River." <br> <br> He had never met Lorna Bucket before (obvious from his reaction), though she had met him before. She mentions running with him through the forest. (I couldn't quite catch the word before, was it "Gamma" Forest)? <br> <br> Lorna sewed the thing with River's name on it, and it was mentioned that the people in that forest had no word for Pond. <br> <br> The Doctor is obviously going to go look for River in the Forest, since he already knows that he will have gone there because of Bucket's comments.
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June 5, 2011, 2:38 p.m. CST
As to the Doctor falling, well, we saw him fall last night - twice
by DoctorTom
The verbal dressing down that River gave him about becoming a Warrior and that which he hates is definitely showing him falling - at least it was a good prick to the ego. There might be some more falling in the next episode (which I agree, is an allusion to the "kill Hitler" thing, and might be referring to the bad guys trying to use their new Timehead powers....maybe we can differentiate the new race from the Time Lords by just referring to them as Timeheads instead). <br> <br> Also, when the Doctor realized who River was, you could clearly see him falling for River at that point. Nobody besides Sexy's ever made him happy like that. That was one deep, deep fall he made there.
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June 5, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST
2legged- no mate! Although I bloody wish I had downed a couple of pints!!!
by sam jacksons wig
I love this place and the people who live here; it's absolutely great to share a common love of one particular thing with so diverse a field....newbies, who experts or those just along to enjoy the experience and the discourse. It is a priviledge to share time with you all, and that time should in no way cater to rude individuals. There are some comments that you just CAN'T ignore, you know? Most of the time I (like others) are just happy to be involved. Insinuations of other things make me very cross (why the fuck would I want to be in charge of anything like this? Yes, I post alot, but out of sheer enjoyment and mutual respect), as does attacks instead of asking a valid question to clear something up. Oh well, it all comes out in the wash in the end, doesn't it??? Hope you are extremely well mate!!!!
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Yeah, I loved River last season and this season, great lines and swagger. Intrigue. Plus, I like smart-ass women personality types. However, when have we seen the Doctor be a "warrior" on purpose? Or pre-meditated (besides this episode where he's trying to save a stolen baby....) The Doctor usually just wants to take his companions someplace, they get there, some shit goes down and he figures out a way to save people's asses. Maybe Eccelson was a bit angry when we 1st meet him, but it's when he's dealing with the loss of his entire race and it's only (well, season wise. Who knows how many actual years our doctors travel around for within a season that we don't see) But through Tennant's time as The Doctor, he's changed. He's more about helping and solving things without violence, etc. So, people who have gotten their asses handed to them by The Doctor are ganging up? Finding a way to defeat him cause all he did was want to save other people? Fuck River's rant at the end. Other then that, I enjoyed the episode. Especially Rory owning the Cybermen.
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though there's enough in the title to indicate that there's spoilers without actually spoiling things in the subject line
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June 5, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST
Diox.....oh dear. Making up stories now are we? Pitiful....
by sam jacksons wig
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And now that he has fallen for her, she can be used to manipulate him (hence in one post discussing Heretics of Dune and Duncan Idaho).
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I thought the same thing when The Doctor's face changed. I didn't even realize when I said it to my girl, but I was like, he just fell in love with her. Huh. Funny.
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makes a load of sense actually.
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And if so, in the end, the trap goes both ways, just like in Dune. She falls for the Doctor even as he falls for her. That is what her controllers didn't expect....
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will be the doc falling for River, who was the previously mentioned to trap. So, I wonder what the odds are that River has nothing to do with Amy's kid and this is all a long con to dupe the doc?
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June 5, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST
I'm gonna have to re-watch Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone again
by ToughGuyRizzo
Want to see more into the relationship between the Cleric Army and River. And see the dude who is on Game of Thrones too! Dune is awesome and so is Toto.
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I didn't think they were meant to be anyone other than what we saw. Some crazy space monks who decapitated themselves. I doubt there is any more to it than that. Just another weird dr. who adversary.
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..he will be back for episode 13 along with a host of others. I quite liked him, too! Given a little more room to breathe the character is very interesting. Love the "fingers in every pie shady" element.
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He's a great guest star and wonderfully played "Not me! I'm old! I'm fat! I'm BLUE!" Would of liked for him to stick around. Actually this episode managed to introduce a lot of new allies to the doctor and make me feel like they'd been around forever Dorium, Lorna Bucket, the Sontaran nurse, and the silurian chicky and her maid. It reminded me a bit of the farscape season 2 finale where they round up a bunch of one-off villians from the monster of the week episodes in the first season, and make a dirty dozen type team out of them.
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When you think about it, The Doctor has had momentary friends all his life. And now this - a person he knows and carries on a relationship with for all her life. A long-term companion - or, at the very least, a long term friend. There's a stability there he's never had before in our acquaintance with him. He's just found the first real friend we've ever seen him with.
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It's interesting it was a River Song story which first mentioned them, and it is in a museum which remembers them her message to the Doctor is also found. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. I am seeing, however, SM seems to be borrowing from Herbert this season, if one looks and watches. Even the Church Militant reminds me of Dune, when one thinks of it. And if River and the Doctor become entwined as I suggest, it makes me think the Cybermen might indeed be the big bad... and I can see them making the headless monks...
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But hadn't his run in with child Lorna already happened for him? He didn't give his usual "we haven't met yet" speech, seemed like he genuinely remembered her. Although I do agree it would be way better if we either had really seen her as a child in an earlier episode, or will see her again in a future one.
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June 5, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST
toughguyrizzo- don't forget that Tennants Doc changed too.....
by sam jacksons wig
... he became more arrogant as he believed that the laws of space and time bended to his will only (see Waters of Mars and The End of Time...) One of the posters on here (HornOrSilk) has theorised that this may be a slow set up for the Valeyard to finally rear his ugly head in Nu-Who.... and we know that Moff loves long term game plans. Who knows... we'll all find out together.
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I wonder if they'll ever make mention of Susan Foreman? Also, isn't there technically a second earlier version of the Tradis in 1969, or am I just putting more into this then the writers might be willing to?
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No, I don't think he had met her yet, in his time line; however, she was dying and wanted to be acknowledged by him. So he did so to please her -- then, he asked, who is she.. showing he didn't know her yet..
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June 5, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST
put_him_in_the_curry - The Doc is one person with 11 faces...
by sam jacksons wig
...although he grows wiser with age, certain personality traits never change. What would be cool would be an amalgamation of each Doctor persona which drives the Doc into becoming the Valeyard. All the negativity and rage of 907 years just bursting into physical existence as one of the nastiest bastards in all of creation. Choice!!!!
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We can understand the full idea of the Doctor being seen as a threat to the universe; we can see Doctor being seen as a bad name; we can see the Doctor seen as a demon who needs to be trapped (the Pandorica); we can see and understand why Doctor is a name of a warrior and not a healer; we can see him causing people and races to join together in the way he said the Daleks would (in Genesis). And River's speech is warning him, telling him not what might be, but what seems to be known in the universe, what will happen. The Doctor, I think, will see it and work to fight himself --even if it means creating a new reality, if need be!
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I guess he could of said "oh how we ran!" to her just guessing that they did some running since thats almost all he ever tells people to do. So is the general consensus that Madame Korarian is somehow connected to the Silents?
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After this revelation, there is No Way that The Doctor (or Moffat, if he has his head on right) is going to leave his only friend, and the daughter of his two companions, locked in the memory core of the library. New motivation for her future return.
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"When you think about it, The Doctor has had momentary friends all his life. And now this - a person he knows and carries on a relationship with for all her life. A long-term companion - or, at the very least, a long term friend. There's a stability there he's never had before in our acquaintance with him." And more than that, he knows he didn't *completely* fail and cost lives that day for nothing... that he WILL succeed and that takes off some of the sting. But also, River could be a companion for a very, very long time. She can regenerate, so she's not tied to one actress. She could also be hundreds of years old. From here on out she could be someone he meets once or twice a season. Different actress occasionally, different doctor eventually, but... she could be part of the mythology for a long long time to come. She's no longer someone that he eventually met in her 20's, that he knows will die in her 40's. sure, 20 years is along time companion off and on... but a 300 year companion?
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I'm not so sure what the connection is, but obviously, there is something - even if it turns out they are in a war against each other, and both are fighting over River Song, that would still be a connection.
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I'm planning on watching as much classic Who as possible in the void between now and autumn, as I want to follow these talkbacks with a little more Who knowledge fresh in my head when it all goes down...now to find a store in Canada that sells Jelly Babies hmmmm...how I miss living in England!
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I agree with Hornorsilk - if you watch the Doctor in that last scene from her, it's obvious that he doesn't know who she is when he thanks her for siding with his friends. He knows he'll run into her again.
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A mere moment in a series like this should not sway you but , once again , as with The Doctors Wife, Matt Smiths's performance when he finds out who River is is just spectacular. Its hard not to empathise with him and love him during those characterisations and I can't think of a Doctor to date whose brought out that feeling in me. The lad is brilliant
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This episode (7) was also the 777th episode. That's some going for a sci-fi/fantasy show.
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While we all want to eventually see the beginning, middle and end of River's story... its a little odd if ALL her adventures are with #11... and she doesn't weird out a little more than she did when she meets #10. She can be on a much longer timeline. Sure eventually the Doctor is going to hit the halfway point and they'll switch over some, but that might not be over the course of 20 encounters, but 2000. It might be Doctor 12 that she met first. Or 13 even. (Not counting being born and the obvious childhood meeting being set up.)
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Yeah.. it's "we GET that word from you", you're right... Nice concept too.
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June 5, 2011, 3:22 p.m. CST
So we found out who river song is, but is that really the question.
by Dr_PepperSpray
I dunno. I wouldn't get too carried away with speculation over Rivers future. I'm thinking there is some sneaky business still going on.
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...considering she didn't have a massive part in it all. She's pictured with the series regulars on the front page. Mean anything or did the graphic artist who put that little graphic together really fancy her?