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UPDATED!! 'A Good Man Goes To War' On This Weekend's DOCTOR WHO!! READER REACTION To The Mid-Season/Series Cliffhanger!!

Published at: June 3, 2011, 6:57 a.m. CST by merrick

 

Merrick again...

With some quick, stream-of-consciousness, SPOILER-FREE thoughts on "A Good Man Goes To War."

Brilliantly scripted by Steven Moffat and propulsively directed by Peter Hoar, this episode is the best of the show's Sixth Series/Season and arguably (please note my emphasis of that word) the finest of the Moffat / Matt Smith era.  "A Good Man Goes To War'" isn't about "What the fuck!?" moments.  It is, instead, a tour of...and a refresher course in...the heart, soul, and spirit of recent DOCTOR WHO (Seasons/Series 5 and 6 in particular).  

It is rollicking and nasty, stirring and wrenching, passionate and coy -  deftly wrapping all of these contrary qualities into a breezy package whose ultimate significance is the personal/emotional consequence of the episode's events more than the (seemingly meaningful) events themselves.  

Matt Smith is transcendent here - his range perfectly matching, and pivoting with, the episode's persistent tonal shifts.  Rory haters might find more to like about the character in this installment.  He's strong, driven, and relentless  - moreso than I recall having seen evidenced in the character previously.   I'd argue that River Song's appearance and utilization here is, perhaps, a bit too abbreviated and expository - although I do see why this particular storyline would've been more difficult to convey if her part in it had been more integral.  

This is a very strong outro for the first half of this Season/Series, complete with a closing teaser card that is likely to incite as much scuttlebutt and speculation as the entirety of this installment.  Go to the bathroom in advance, turn off your phones, pull your curtains/blinds, clear your head, and follow "A God Man..." into war.  It's a helluva ride.  

 

- original article follows -  

 

_____________________________________

 

 

more by Paul Hanley
 

 

Merrick here...

Saturday brings U.K. viewers "A Good Man Goes To War" - the seventh episode in this Series/Season of DOCTOR WHO, and our last installment before the show's much-lamented mid-Series/Season cliffhanger and hiatus. 

This prequelish mini-episode sets up some of what we'll see...

 

 

PROGRAMING AND TALKBACK NOTES


"A Good Man Goes To War" airs in the U.K. Saturday June 4. 

BBC AMERICA will broadcast the episode one week from now - on Saturday June 11 - at 9/8c.  THIS TALKBACK WILL AGAIN BE MADE AVAILABLE TO NORTH AMERICAN VIEWERS when the episode is shown here in the U.S.  Check next week's DOCTOR WHO Talkback - which will  launch Friday morning U.S time (June 10) - for a link back to this "Good Man Goes To War" Talkback. 

BBC AMERICA will broadcast "The Almost People" -  which aired in the U.K. last weekend - this weekend (Saturday June 4 at 9/8c) here in the U.S.  NORTH AMERICAN VIEWERS:  you can still participate in last week's "Almost People" Talkback - which was gloriously gargantuan (over 1,000 posts).

 

"The Almost People" Talkback Is Still HERE!!

 

U.K. VIEWERS/TALKBACKERS: please feel free to revisit the "Almost People" Talkback after the episode airs in North America on Saturday.  There may well be some good discussion waiting to be had, and fresh insight still to be found, once North America gets a look at the show.  NOTE: It is completely feasible for both "Good Man" and "Almost People" Talkbacks to not only run parallel with each other over this weekend, but mutually place on the Top Talkbacks sidebar.  

I know juggling  two Talkbacks during these delayed airings is a little awkward and frustrating - for which I apologize. 'Tis the best way I could conjure to make these DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks available to everyone in both the U.K. and North America given a currently non-conformed broadcast schedule.  If anyone has better ideas, I'm all ears...
 

 

 

SPECIAL SPOILER WARNING FOR

NORTH AMERICAN READERS

BBC America has delayed broadcast of  "A Good Man Goes To War" by one week to accommodate an anticipated drop in viewership during the recent Memorial Day holiday here in The States.  The episode will, however, air in the U.K. Saturday June 4 as anticipated. 

As such, and quite naturally, this Talkback will become a SPOILER ZONE when the episode airs in the U.K. tomorrow evening (late tomorrow morning U.S. time). U.S. viewers should tread very carefully 'round/after tomorrow (Saturday June 4) morning as SPOILERS will be afoot. 

BBCA airs "A Good Man Goes To War" next Saturday (June 11)  - 9/8c.    As stated above, when the episode broadcasts in the U.S., this Talkback will once more be made available to North American viewers.  Check next week's DOCTOR WHO Talkback for a direct link.  

 

 

--- follow Merrick on Twitter ! ---

 

 

 

coming next week:

Weekly DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks continue with a look at the forthcoming "Time and the Rani" and "Frontios" DVD releases (although "Frontios" may be held until the following week's TB), some thumbnail musings on my efforts to catch up with 'classic' WHO (this week I watched "Genesis of the Daleks," "The Talons Of Weng-Chiang," and am now entering the "City of Death" - thanks to everyone for their recommendations), and more...

 

 

S6 (1)

See DOCTOR WHO  Season/Series Six Episode 1  - "The Impossible Astronaut"  - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.

Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife"  - is available HERE in HD, while standard def is availabe HERE

Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.

Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.  

Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.

 

Readers Talkback

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  • June 3, 2011, 7:14 a.m. CST

    I Predict......

    by cymraeg_cowboy

    ....this will be awesome!

  • June 3, 2011, 7:17 a.m. CST

    First!

    by Jack Carter

    Wooo!

  • June 3, 2011, 7:25 a.m. CST

    I Predict......

    by cymraeg_cowboy

    Jackcarter will look foolish!

  • June 3, 2011, 7:31 a.m. CST

    Ding Dong !

    by dj_bollocks

    Looking good !

  • June 3, 2011, 7:49 a.m. CST

    Can't wait...

    by Ian

    The last episodes was one of of absolute favorites, and this one's looking even better.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:05 a.m. CST

    Watching Season 5 on Netflix

    by iceman199

    Is Amy Pond the cutest thing on TV EVER??? YES!!

  • June 3, 2011, 8:09 a.m. CST

    by Ian Hylands

    Looking forward to the Jenny issue. Whether she is the Sword wielding victorian or regenerated back into a child (she never had a childhood, afterall) or whether she's a giant, smelly red herring :)

  • June 3, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST

    The nature of the cliffhanger...

    by V'Shael

    I have a couple of theories in mind, which the AICN editor has chosen to scrap more than once.... 1) Some massive alteration to the timeline, such as killing River, and the affect that would have as it propagates through the Doctors timeline. And then he says basically "Fuck it" to maintaining the timeline. 2) One of the doctors companions turns against him, like Rory siding with the bad guys for the sake of Amy. 3) The Doctor does something truly horrific like killing Amy and her baby (by accident or by design) I mean, it has to be something truly terrible and unexpected if we're to talk about it all summer...

  • June 3, 2011, 8:18 a.m. CST

    Speculation

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor's highest hour: He gets the Sontarans, the Cybermen working FOR HIM and not against him.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:18 a.m. CST

    This is it DocBackers......the deep breath before the plunge....

    by sam jacksons wig

    Headless Monks River Song The identity of the child The Doctors darkest hour An alliance both old and new and the mother of all cliffhangers...... ...what's not to like??????

  • June 3, 2011, 8:20 a.m. CST

    v'shael

    by Ian

    I'm not sure if they'd go that dark with the doctor, seems way too out of character.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:20 a.m. CST

    v'shael

    by Merrick

    ***I have a couple of theories in mind, which the AICN editor has chosen to scrap more than once....*** Not sure what you mean?

  • They were first mentioned in the Episode "Time of Angels..." when the Doc and Amy are in the museum. The Doc states that the place they are in is the "last resting place of the Headless Monks." So, do you think we'll see a return there and the Doc ACTUALLY despatching them, and talking about himself to Amy in previous events????? HOLY PARADOX BATMAN!!!!!

  • June 3, 2011, 8:22 a.m. CST

    Horn- wouldn't THAT be a hoot??????

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 8:23 a.m. CST

    Lucky for some - number seven - and unlucky for others

    by Mister Vertue

    Afternoon all! Here's an interesting fact for all you lovely Docbackers (that *is* what you're calling yourself here, I'm sure I read that before) - episode 7 of this series also happens to be episode 777 of the entire series. Was that done on purpose? Of course not, but it's a nice wee happenstance, isn't it? Okay, back to work I go. I'm sure I'll be back at some ungodly hour before I retire to my pit for the night. You know, I'm growing rather fond of you all in here. Ta ta for now!

  • June 3, 2011, 8:25 a.m. CST

    lordcranium

    by Mister Vertue

    A red herring in Doctor Who? Oh, they *never* do that. That would be terribly naughty of them. That's like calling The Doctor and River Song liars! Outrageous!

  • June 3, 2011, 8:26 a.m. CST

    The cliffhanger is all to do with River Song and her identity....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....apparently she reveals her identity right at the end. Oh, and there is supposedly very little of the Cybermen (already out there so no spoilers) in this episode.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:27 a.m. CST

    MERRICK. YOU'RE MY HERO.

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I... just wanted you to know that.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Merrick

    Yes! Every Friday morning during the break (prob late morning U.S. time) I'll launch a new DOCTOR WHO Talkback. We'll discuss... ** classic eps newly released & upcoming on DVD... ** theforthcoming 1/2 Season DVD/Blu-Ray set for Season/Series 6... ** I'll ponder the 'classic' / 'important' eps I am now watching (from throughout the entire history of the show)... ** We'll check-out some audio adventures.... ** We'll argue about "bests" and "worsts" of everything (characters, eps, etc.) ** And anything else you folks wish to discuss! I'm open to suggestions... We'll resume normal Series/Season Six DW Talkback formatting and structure when the show returns from hiatus. Beginning next Friday.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    man_of_vertue

    by Ian Hylands

    I know. I'm SUCH a naughty boy :) Still. The truth will out :) I am fairly confident on River's identity, it's the Child's real Identity that I am on tenterhooks about. That and wondering whether among the debtors is one Capt Jack....

  • June 3, 2011, 8:32 a.m. CST

    CBTML- I thought that Dicks-o-sucker was your hero???

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 8:33 a.m. CST

    man_of_vertue

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    What do you think of Lawrence Miles?

  • June 3, 2011, 8:34 a.m. CST

    I reckon the end of A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR will be similar to a Scooby Doo episode

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    River will pull off her latex face and, as the camera shoots forward, she'll say "I could've gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddlin' kids!"

  • June 3, 2011, 8:35 a.m. CST

    That's a cool Tom Baker piece of art, by the way

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

  • June 3, 2011, 8:36 a.m. CST

    CB- so is the Doctor Shaggy??? Amy is DEAD ringer for Scooby...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 8:36 a.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by Ian

    Kind of want to see a Mystery Machine paint job on the tardis now.

  • And Rory somehow is involved with a "big mistake." What if he doesn't know of the alliance and he does something because of it, leading to the Doctor's fall? And what if this is why River would take on Rory (if she does)? I also think something happens to the Doctor so that River has control of the TARDIS at the end. It seems somehow time is being changed big time all around them. And so the Doctor has been sent to Hitler, who has him imprisoned. This is why they go after Hitler... But more importantly.. I am thinking... with monks and changing of time... someone else who might be involved... classic Who... The Meddling Monk.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:48 a.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry -

    by dogrobber

    (Sort of spoiler-ish hints) You're right, it is out of character for the Doctor. But Matt Smith's Doctor isn't exactly the Doctor. Either by sheer luck - because of Mr. Moffat's use of throwaway lines - or actual planning there are clues are in place going back to "The Eleventh Hour" as to who the current Doctor really is. Not that he isn't the Doctor, because he is even though he isn't. It will make sense. And the two GangerDoctor copies running around the timelines have nothing to do with it. And River Song is a hero, not a villain.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:50 a.m. CST

    As for the girl who will not be named

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm leaning to the fact she isn't the Doctor's daughter. She is Jack the Ripper.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:50 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by Ian

    Crazy, thanks for the info! I'm looking forward to re-watching season 5 & 6 to see what I've been missing.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:51 a.m. CST

    Dogrobber

    by HornOrSilk

    You mean he is really the Doctor Donna?

  • June 3, 2011, 8:54 a.m. CST

    Jenny, The Doctor's Daughter - might be back. And she might be gay!

    by HarryBlackPotter

    There's this cute little fox with a sword and wearing victorian 'boyish' clothing and she's called Jenny. And apparantly, she does girls and lizards. Mmmmmm. Lezzy lizards.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:55 a.m. CST

    harryblackpotter

    by Ian Hylands

    This is what I am thinking! Is she Jenny, regenerated or another character entirely?!?!?

  • June 3, 2011, 8:56 a.m. CST

    The Victorian London tie in..... (spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Is just a birthday trip for River Song I have been led to believe, and this is where the Jack the Ripper time line fits in.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:57 a.m. CST

    Or...this Jenny might be 'Jill The Ripper'!

    by HarryBlackPotter

    I think there's a short scene in Victorian London, with a mention of saucy Jack.

  • June 3, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    The Doctor = Scooby

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Rory = Shaggy Amy = Daphne Docy-Doctor-Who, Who Are You? We got some work to do now. Docy-Doctor-Who, Where Are You? We need some help from you now.

  • June 3, 2011, 9 a.m. CST

    Also regarding the Battle of Demons Run...(spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    The Demons Run asteroid where Madame Korvarian has set up base id called so because "Demons Run..... when a Good Man Goes To War..." (clip is out there courtesy of the BBC.)

  • June 3, 2011, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Apparently Jenny is from Victorian England, too. So I heard.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Amy IS Velma!!!!! Just look at the hair!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Amy's secret identity revealed

    by HornOrSilk

    Karen is her name. We find out at the end of the episode that this is all a fictional story being told... apparently this is all explained in part 2 of part 7 called "Confidential." All the clues are there if you watch it this season; they have been talking to actors in the second half of every episode. It should have been a big clue!

  • June 3, 2011, 9:06 a.m. CST

    Horn- didn't know that, but.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....apparently she has a Silurian with her, an they have some kind of lesbian tryst. Not sur if this is just bullshit or fact.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:07 a.m. CST

    What if Amy is a Timelord?

    by DJJester

  • June 3, 2011, 9:08 a.m. CST

    Rumours about Rivers involvement in the battle...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...doesn't she show up at the very end, marking the end of the episode and the clifhanger into the scond half???

  • June 3, 2011, 9:09 a.m. CST

    River's birthday trip

    by Ian Hylands

    co-incidentally occurrs as Amy gives birth? Yeah. Total co-incidence...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:09 a.m. CST

    djjester - she's not, mate. Sorry.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Hello everyone!

    by Seph_J

    I imagine this is going to be a colossal TB.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    Sunday Times says that the ep ends with an "arresting Denoument."

    by sam jacksons wig

    Seems as if lots of things are pointing to Rivers identity being the last thing in the ep.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I think we will find ourselves with TWO Rivers in this story. She knows what happens, she was there. Note what she told Rory -- "I" (as in the River Rory is talking to) cannot show up until the end. That is because she knows when she shows up since she saw herself show up from when she was there. I think River Song WILL be there in the battle. But it will be an earlier (for River) version of her. And I'm not talking the baby. But if she is the baby, this could have been called "the three Rivers."

  • June 3, 2011, 9:13 a.m. CST

    For this weekend, lets beat all X-Men Talkbacks

    by HornOrSilk

    I plan to see X-Men today. But Doctor Who -- that's what I will be talking about.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:14 a.m. CST

    What I find interesting and good

    by HornOrSilk

    We have had some new DocBackers come in this week.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:15 a.m. CST

    Horn- the ep was orginially going to be called "Rivers Run..."

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 9:18 a.m. CST

    Has no-one mentioned Omega yet?

    by penhapus

    :) Looking at the clips, etc. this week, and stuff in magazine like Dr Who Adventures, I think the Silurians and Sontarans are fighting WITH the Doctor on this occasion; the cliffhanger? I reckon The Doctor brings back the Cybermen from this Universe... I don't think River is the baby - it looks like a boy - so I've no idea where she fits in... oh, well - just a day to go

  • June 3, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    penhapus- the baby is called "Melody..." so, erm......

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    So, *spoilers*

    by Seph_J

    am I the only person who hopes we see the formation of the alliance, and the reason why the doctor is thought to destroy the universe. And would that not clear up a lot of people's (diamondjoe) hang ups with the last series? I also expect there to be a scene that justifies the "ON-LY THE DOC-TOR CAN PI-LOT THE TAR-DIS" line from The Pandorica Opens.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    Spoiler

    by penhapus

    the River reveal IS right at the end of the episode, and leads in to the next episode title reveal...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:21 a.m. CST

    although

    by Seph_J

    stone dalek practically shit himself when discovering who River Song was... and yet the Daleks were unaware that she could pilot the TARDIS just as well (if not better) than the Doctor...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Melody... Song

    by penhapus

    *wheels on Dusty Bin*

  • June 3, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Many have mentioned Omega

    by HornOrSilk

    Welcome to the DocBacks. Yes, Omega has been mentioned. I feel The Meddling Monk is more likely than Omega. After this episode, it appears we will have all kinds of temporal changes going on, which one would expect from the Monk. We also know he likes wars and all. I can see him being behind it all. Though I like Omega, just something inside me says no. I doubt it is the Monk, either, but there is a bit in me which says the Monk. I still think it is possible that the Doctor is the big bad of the season. He is changed in this episode. What...if.. he...gets...cyber-converted?

  • June 3, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    There's a rumour doingte rounds that ep 8 is called.....(slight spoiler)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..Let's Kill Hitler. I think that this is shite.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:24 a.m. CST

    seph_j

    by HornOrSilk

    I do think we will see the alliance form; I hope so. But I keep thinking we will learn it was the Doctor all along who made it.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:24 a.m. CST

    so River Song is Hitler

    by Seph_J

    ...who was a Timelord all along. Damn I would see that.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think it is wrong. I think it is right. We know Nazis are in episode 8, and it seems they have some connection to the Doctor (imprisoned?).

  • June 3, 2011, 9:28 a.m. CST

    Sam Jackson's Wig

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    My fingers will be faster 99% of the time. You've eaten too many jelly babies, buddy. They've made you slower than an Abzorbaloff in a chase scene.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:28 a.m. CST

    May not be back until after the episode has haired. Some of these post titles make me nervous.

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Don't want to stumble on a spoiler...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:28 a.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by Mister Vertue

    Just had a quick check here before popping off to the loo (too much information?) and noticed your posting. You're officially the naughtiest man on AICN. I can't say anything other than everyone should go to Lawrence's delightful website (I'll even give you the link - http://beasthouse-lm2.blogspot .com/ - I have it added to my favourites, you should too!) and then come back here and discuss it further. Now *that* should be a Docback discussion in itself. Saying as it's Friday I might even knock off work early to come back and see what your comments are. Prizes may be given out if 'key words' are mentioned here. And by 'key words', I mean words that are always mentioned whenever Lawrence's website is the focus of discussion (disclaimer - no actual prizes will be given out - not even Tardis playsets, so don't even bother haggling for that). Your Docback is like a Class A drug, so very addictive.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    You can't have *that* title

    by penhapus

    for what is still - at heart - a kid's TV show.

  • http://www.cultbox.co.uk/interviews/exclusives/1153-simon-fisher-becker-doctor-who-interview The most interesting thing is that he is quoted as saying "everythingwill be answered in ep 13, but then new questions will be asked as a cliffhanger to season 7." So, another new story arc, or a continuation of current things? (most actors lie....;)

  • June 3, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    Due to this DocBack, in the next season of Doctor Who

    by HornOrSilk

    Christian Bale is being recruited to play the Meddling Monk who is going on a crusade against light houses... fearing Rutans living in them.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:31 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I mentioned (I think in the River Song thread) that ep 13 is supposed to clear up all the main plot points and start a new plot/storyline. I expect this, too, is true. Actors might lie, but in this case, I do think SM knows he can only go so far with being Silent...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    Lawrence Miles

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm sorry, I have no respect for him. That's all I will say about him.

  • Now, where do you want YOUR jelly babies sent?????

  • June 3, 2011, 9:38 a.m. CST

    Lawrence Miles "Why I could never write for Doctor Who..."...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...because you're shite. That is all.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Horn- then he will need to get Rid of River.......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...or only use her "sparingly" depending on the outcome of her story arc. Going into a new Season would be great minus her, Amy and (what is now becoming "unfortunately") Rory. By that stage I suspect we'll all be needing something new..... the old, borrowed and blue can go to hell.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:45 a.m. CST

    Christian Bales Doctor dialogue.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..... fuck you, MOFF!!!! Fuck you! Get off my fucking set! Getting in Karens way, blocking her shot...... fuck you! Fire this asshole!"

  • June 3, 2011, 9:46 a.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry & hornorsilk

    by dogrobber

    put_him_in_the_curry - Dear gods don't listen to me - I don't know what I'm babbling about plus I tend to be wrong. I'm just basing my guesses on the following: An unexplained (as far as I know) line from "The Eleventh Hour" where the Doctor grabs his chest in pain and says "This is too soon. I'm not ready. I'm not done yet." from which I inferred that he froze or stopped his regeneration before he was finished cooking so that instead of being Doctor 11.0 he was Doctor 10.5 (or something). I originally thought that it was going to be a way to explain an extra regeneration or give Mr. Moffat a chance to alter the Doctor's personality (same actor/different Doctor). It probably doesn't mean anything, though early on it would have been a neat way to have a story or two involving the Valeyard. The two DoctorGangers are more than likely just bad editing/continuity (or my old eyes). In the first Matt Smith series everything I thought was editing mistakes (other than flipped negatives or whatever the current tech term is with HD cams) turned out to have been done on purpose. Plus I'm counting the melted DoctorGanger who I'm assuming reforms (I was surprised that they showed him melting). I do think - with no evidence, only the fact that the Doctor lies, so by extension do the showrunners - that River Song is simply River Song (unless she is only Amy's child, with no 'involvement' from either Rory or the Doctor) and it is what she does, not who she is, that is the big secret. I think she has to do something that seems incredibly evil for a very good reason. Of course, I also think that the Doctor is playing a long con with her, and has known all her secret all along, But, again, what do I know. hornorsilk God I hope not (though I like the 'Donna' character) - I was thinking more like the Valeyard.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:46 a.m. CST

    I live!!!

    by Pogue__Mahone

    Sorry, all, for my notable abscence. As is typical with the black cloud that lives over my head I've spent mostly every waking hour (when not at work) at our local hospital. My 19 month old nephew - he's a triplet, by the way - had a bit of an accident and fractured his femur. (He'll be fine... wee ones are resiliant) And all this happens as my sis is about to move into a new house. Chaos ensues! So between helping look after babies andworking and helping move etc... would you believe I JUST watched 'The Almost People' two nights ago? So I'll do my best over the weekend to stay current. This cliffhanger is NOT to be postponed! I need some 'Me Time' and my nephew and I are super stoked for this episode! So V'Shael, Shibs, Frozen, CBTML, Moffatbabies and the rest of the crew. I shall return! P.S. Anyone have a REAL TARDIS so I can go back on my own timeline and stop all this bullshit from happening?! LOL

  • Stay safe!

  • June 3, 2011, 9:51 a.m. CST

    Just curious...

    by dogrobber

    ... why doesn't River have a sonic screwdriver yet (or does she and I've just missed it)?

  • June 3, 2011, 9:51 a.m. CST

    And Merrick!

    by Pogue__Mahone

    THANK YOU for turning this DOCBACK into one of the hands down coolest features on AICN! As a dyed in the wool Whovian I - and MANY others - appreciate this awesome forum to discuss our favourite show. Our weekly Who viewing parties has grown into a grand evening - from 13 year olds to 40 year olds - all sitting and enjoying the show together... sometimes up to 8 or 9 of us. Cold beers in hands (those of us old enough) and a great group to gasp and have fun with. Someone above said 'this is what TV is all about'. I concur. There's NOTHING on the air that does this to me and my friends like Doctor Who. And to think... but a few years ago (and months, in some cases) some of the gang had barely heard of the good Doctor!

  • June 3, 2011, 9:53 a.m. CST

    dogrobber -

    by sam jacksons wig

    *****that River Song is simply River Song (unless she is only Amy's child, with no 'involvement' from either Rory or the Doctor)****** Rory is seen talking to River, trying to recruit her for the battle, and saying "They have kidnapped Am and our baBY..." An admission of parentage, or just Rorys good natured assumption???

  • June 3, 2011, 9:53 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by penhapus

    that's one of things... plus we know she's not going to die, unless that's the big thing that happens and knocks everything else askew...

  • June 3, 2011, 9:56 a.m. CST

    Thanks sam!

    by Pogue__Mahone

    I missed coming in here and chattin 'er up with some of the most fun people I've found on the web! Thanks for the kind words... we'll soldier on... it's what my family does. On an unrelated (sorta) note... tickets for FAN EXPO in Toronto go on sale July 1st (Fan Expo is Canada's answer to san Diego Comic Con. Any of my fellow Canadian Docbackers planningo n attending?!

  • June 3, 2011, 9:56 a.m. CST

    I'm going to do the same thing I did last week

    by Chris Miller

    I'm going to download the new episode as soon as it's available and watch it. I'm not waiting a week. That being said I'm still, likely, to rewatch the episode next week the same way I'm likely to rewatch the Almost People tomorrow night.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:58 a.m. CST

    wow.

    by Pogue__Mahone

    That's some terrible typing skills (See Above Post)

  • Rory sans Roman Outfit. Says it was "The Doctors Idea" presumably to wear it while he and the Doc go recruiting. So, recruiting who exactly? Remember the pic of Rory infront of the Cybermen wearing the Roman outfit? What if you are correct,and he IS recruiting them to fight? I mean, most of us are expecting them to return and kick the Docs arse, but Moff is just cagey enough to turn us on our heads, laugh and scream "Fuck you!" I am not counting that out now. Can't wait to find out.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:02 a.m. CST

    Pogue- it's the contents mate, not the typing! And you're very welcome!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Sam -- on my theory

    by HornOrSilk

    I think there is a good chance we will see it happen this way. The pictures with him next to the Sontaran have been the ones which made me think this as a possibility. The whole alliance needs more explanation, and the Doctor being behind it all would be one master-stroke.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:10 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by Ian

    Ok I remember that line from 11th Hour, I always thought it was just him worrying about the current situation while the regeneration was still taking place...kind of like "damnit why now, I'm not up to strength yet" more or less. Regardless, it will be interesting to see how it plays out, because well if the Doctor wasn't *completely* the doctor that would make for a really epic cliffhanger.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:12 a.m. CST

    Horn- so, does this potentially mean..... (theoretical spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....that the Doc got himself put into the Pandorica deliberately by an alliance that HE created, or that they simply turned on him because of the Universe thing et.c et.c After all, we both know that events from this season preceed events from last.....

  • June 3, 2011, 10:14 a.m. CST

    Horn & Sam

    by penhapus

    as I said about a dozen posts earlier, I reckon the Doctor will bring back this universe's Cybermen; that's the 'wtf' moment...

  • June 3, 2011, 10:15 a.m. CST

    PLUS!

    by penhapus

    that would explain the throwaway line from the first season when Christopher Eccleston sees the Cyberhead in the case...

  • ...but there were rumours a while ago that we would see 2 kinds of cybermen and that they would (maybe) clash. I took it with a piece of salt. Now I am not so sure. I do however know that the Cybermen are back for ep 13.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:27 a.m. CST

    If that's the case...

    by penhapus

    I want old school bloke in a silver diving suit Cybermen versus C3P0 with handles Cybermen.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:31 a.m. CST

    Also (small spoiler)....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .Mark Gattiss back infront of the camera for ep 13. Don't think he'll be playing Lazarus, however.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:33 a.m. CST

    penhapus- LET THE MAAAAAATCH....BEGINNNNN!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    @Merrick - I meant that I'd write out an entry,

    by V'Shael

    press the POST YOUR TALKBACK button then the page would refresh, and my entry would vanish. It happens occasionally, and not just to me. I've heard other talkbackers mention this. Chalked it up to the sites teething problems, ever since the so-called upgrade.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:47 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I am thinking the whole Pandorica itself was the Doctor's plan --that he has been playing chess with an unseen opponent and he had to do a bluff.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by dogrobber

    The only reason - and my reasoning tends not to be very good/I may be misinterpreting the scene - I say that River, if she is Amy's child, isn't Rory's is because I thought she was kind of flirting with him in "Day of the Moon" (when Rory asks River what kind of doctor she is and she answers "Archaeology" then "Lover, too").

  • June 3, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Doctor Who Anime...

    by s0l

    While you guys are waiting for tomorrows episode here's a fan made Anime: http://youtu.be/ePtj3z8rSq4

  • June 3, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST

    s0l

    by Ian

    Thanks for the link, that's amazing for a fan made production!

  • June 3, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST

    SPECULATIVE SPOILER!

    by Seph_J

    not really, I just like saying that!

  • June 3, 2011, 10:58 a.m. CST

    What does Dorium Maldavar ...

    by dogrobber

    ... (the blue Kasper Gutman-type character) yell to the monks in the above clip? Is the line "God help us if you've made HIM angry!" or "God help us if you've made THEM angry!"? I've replayed it a few times, from a couple of different sites, but everyone here thinks he says "...made THEM angry!" which doesn't make sense (unless he is talking about multiple Doctors). What does he actually say? Thanks.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by Ian

    I heard "them" too, which is weird because before hand he's talking about a singular doctor....strange.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    I heard him

    by HornOrSilk

  • June 3, 2011, 11:05 a.m. CST

    I heard "him" too

    by Seph_J

  • June 3, 2011, 11:10 a.m. CST

    What Dorium really said

    by HornOrSilk

    Don't you know who that is? It's the Valeyard. You don't want to piss him off. You would do better pissing off Omega -- all he can do is flick you off with his hand. Rassilon, too, is a better choice; he will just give you a beating by his rod. --- They cut that down to "him."

  • June 3, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Right, I'm preparing for this by watching just 8 episodes....

    by Seph_J

    First I'm stocking up on Toblerone, and then, at around 10am I'm watching Silence in the Library, followed by Forrest of the Dead, Time of Angels, Flesh and Stone, The Pandorica Opens, The Big Bang, The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon. Which should take me up to around 6pm ish. Just in time to have my game, well and truly changed. Magnificent.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:35 a.m. CST

    That would be cool

    by donkey_lasher

    If all these enemies aren't scared of The Doctor. They're scared of The Valeyard, and he's active.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:54 a.m. CST

    You guys are hard on Lawrence Miles...

    by sunspot_mike

    ...while his opinions are questionable, his Doctor Who criticism is pretty entertaining to read and his knowledge is encyclopedic. And he was one of the guys keeping the show alive during the Dark Times after the TV movie. He's just a professional hater, kinda like a Perez Hilton for Whovians (is it still okay to use that word?) And a classic DocBack every week during the break? Fucking awesome. I've been reading Ain't It Cool almost daily for 14 years this summer and this is the first time I've ever been inspired to regularly post. Also, I'm with the thinking that River isn't connected to Amy and Rory in any weird way and I'm looking forward to the surprise of what she's actually going to do. The little girl is probably their kid and the regeneration capabilites are probably the "Time Head" that is the result of being conceived in the TARDIS. Just to get myself in the mood I've been watching YouTube clips of some of the great moments - (River's speech at the end of Forest of the Dead, the Doctor's "Never ever put me in a trap" and his come-get-some Pandorica speech, plus rewatching Day of the Moon.) I just think it's awesome that they took the time to build a story over a couple of years and now they're giving us some answers and are taking the time to do something different. One thing I loved about the old show was that while some of the stories were drawn out way too much, having long stories gave us a chance to live in the world for a little longer. I feel like River, "Silence Will Fall", the eyepatch midwife, and the cracks in the universe are all making this particular Doctor Who feel nice and lived in. And the mid-series break is going to be torture, but if it means we get more big story-changing events and less "filler" episodes that are fun but aren't as consequential, I'm down with it.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    Not reading anything till I see this tomorrow...

    by -Halfscan-

    "Spoilers, Sweety!"

  • June 3, 2011, 12:04 p.m. CST

    Question...

    by Ian

    I've noticed a lot of you mention The Valeyard in reference to the Dream Master....is that the ongoing assumption that this is how The Valeyard was created? (Sorry if this is old hat to any docback vets, but I'm new to the whole docback thing, and want to get caught up!)

  • Oh and I've ate 12 toblerones, drank 17 bottles of Chardonay and threw up on the cat......

  • June 3, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    I love these mini-episode trailers

    by Dreamfasting

    Trailers often give away far too much detail - these little outside-the-episode extra scenes are absolutely fantastic for setting mood.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Bit late here, but Dorium says "him..."

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST

    Ok, who is this Lawrence guy, and who cares if he can't write?

    by Perigee

    Some dink who writes fan fiction, albeit published, and put together an episode guide? Some guy named Rob Durfee apparently wrote one for Star Trek, but whatever might drool from his lips would not neccessarily impress me. Any gimp can watch a crapload of television and then write about what they saw. And, after grinding enough detritus off of somebody else's rock, they can pretend to own enough of it themselves to complain about it. Opinions - you know what they're like. And his is roughly the same size as everybody else's here.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:14 p.m. CST

    So I assume this kid is the Nightmare Child?

    by Nick

    Or have we all forgotten about that?

  • June 3, 2011, 12:15 p.m. CST

    Horn- that's a bold statement, my friend!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Wow! If the Pandorica event was all of the Docs doing then "DAMN!!!" There does appear to be recurring themes though; Winston Churchill back (why, if not to tie 5 to 6?) The Alliance..... .....jesus, I am salivating at the prospect and now will be completely gutted if it does not pan out his way! Mr Silk- I believe we both want this to happen, sir...

  • June 3, 2011, 12:22 p.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry

    by sam jacksons wig

    The Valeyard is described as an aspect of the Doctor from between his twelfth and final incarnations. In the "The Trial of a Time Lord", the Time Lords appoint the Valeyard as prosecutor at the Sixth Doctor's trial, hoping to have him executed - thereby removing the sole witness to their near-destruction of life on Earth. The Valeyard is what can be described as the anti-doctor. There are alot of us wishing that he would return.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    christopher_chance - no we haven't forgotten, and don't assume, mate.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 12:27 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Ian

    I remember "The Trial of a Time Lord", I was just curious as his actual origins are never explained (at least to my (knowledge).

  • June 3, 2011, 12:29 p.m. CST

    "So I assume this kid is the Nightmare Child?"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Why on Earth would you assume that. This 'Nightmare child' thing is just some throwaway creation of the Time War that sounds cool ...

  • June 3, 2011, 12:30 p.m. CST

    it's not the Nightmare Child...

    by Seph_J

    ...unless it particularly likes eating spaceships.... (particularly Davros' command ship)

  • June 3, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    MASSIVE HOLY SHIT *SPOILER*

    by Seph_J

    Leaked footage of the Nightmare Child defeating the Supreme Dalek!! Man I love the retro 60s look to this footage!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G5U_7utMDA

  • June 3, 2011, 12:35 p.m. CST

    River Song is the doctor

    by Chopper

    calling it

  • Alas, that and others are locked in the time war. Rassilon nearly brought them all back, but...didn't happen.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Sam J

    by Seph_J

    Toblerone + TIA/DotM = Pure bliss. Has anyone else fallen in love with the last 10 minutes of DotM like I have? The massacre of the Silents is just so giddy!

  • June 3, 2011, 12:46 p.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry

    by sam jacksons wig

    Other than a cryptic hint (see below), the origins of the Valeyard are unknown. According to the Master, the Valeyard was the personification of all that was evil within the Doctor, estimated to have been taken from somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations. "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration.", perhaps the essence of the Doctor's negative emotion from that time. This is from The Ultimate Foe. We all thought initially that Toby Jones last season was the Valeyard due to all of the negativity and the Doc intimating that he "hated himself more than anyone else" And that little nod to the fans with the reflection left everything open.....classic.

  • June 3, 2011, 12:51 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig...

    by Ian

    Thanks for the info, 'tis much appreciated!

  • June 3, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    seph- yes! And the music is awesome! Love it!!!! Revisiting this series...

    by sam jacksons wig

    .....which I have erm, aquired from a friend I a finding it just fantastic! Just the right shades of dark and light, with Canton being one of my faves! More of him please!!!!

  • June 3, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    No River is not the Doctor

    by mistergreen

    It's just too weird flirting and kissing yourself. She can't be his daughter either. My theory is the baddies tried to create a timelord using Amy because she lived with the time crack and rode around in the Tardis. She really is a child of time.

  • They didn't say "somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration". They said between your twelfth (though it may have said elventh) and FINAL regeneration. <br> <br> The "final" part was key. Originally people were thinking that the Valeyard might have been a projection of the Doctor's baser instincts, in a manner similar to the Tom Baker Doctor having projected the Watcher before turning into Peter Davison, or how the Doctor's mentor projected himself as Cho-je in Planet of the Spiders. <br> <br> Since the new series, we realized we didn't know how many regenerations the Doctor might actually have left, given the Time War. When he gave the flip answer in The Sarah Jane adventures, it meant that any of the regenerations after the 12th could be the Valeyard. <br> <br> curry, people are associating the Valeyard with the Master because the Valeyard was supposed to be the distillation of all the negative impulses of the Doctor, and the Dream Lord is essentially that to start with, just needing a little more time and regenerations to cook into a full-fledged Valeyard. <br> <br> Of course, we still don't know, given the benefit of looking back from what we know know, if the Valeyard was merely trying to work some wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey thing to subvert the time war or at least change some aspects of it (perhaps getting better people on the high council so that they didn't just follow Rassilon's lead into wanting to destroy the universe when they ascended). Of course, since it was JNT and Eric Saward handling the timey wimey hijinks instead of Moffat, this attempt was apparently a complete failure. (Do not try this at home - leave it to the experts!)

  • June 3, 2011, 1:49 p.m. CST

    cbtml - Lawrence Miles

    by DoctorTom

    so, what do *you* think of him? <br> <br> I liked the novels he wrote for the 8th Doctor line, and found Dead Romance incredible. When River Song started talking about how valuable a Time Lord's body, even a dead one, is I thought back to Alien Bodies where there was an auction for the Doctor's dead body. I'd also like to see the TV series use the idea of Sabbath or someone like him as the post-Time Lord era version of who is going to take care of the timeline (though now he could probably be pitched as initially being a Torchwood agent). <br> <br> From what I've seen in conversations that he's had and some of his posting, he does seem to be a bitter man who doesn't play well with others. To me that doesn't take away from the books he's written, you just have to separate the man from his work.

  • June 3, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    "I've even heard rumors about whose child you've taken"

    by DoctorTom

    It's made to look like Dorium is obvisously referring to Amy's child that it makes me wonder if it's actually Jenny that's being referred to. Even if not a baby, she could still be referred to as the Doctor's child.

  • June 3, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    doctortom - see my second sentence in my last post to "curry".....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....and the other words are that of the Master from Doctor Who- The Ultimate Foe, not mine. And you are correct- amateurs should leave the timey-wimey stuff well alone. The behind the scenes battles between Saward and John Nathan Turner didn't help much.

  • June 3, 2011, 2:10 p.m. CST

    maybe we are in the middle of a trilogy ?

    by brian tobin

    just thinking out loud...and then moffat and smith and all ride off into the sunset after three years .....

  • ....either that or the Baby from Amy, athough that does not seem plausible as it's already being born into captivity.

  • June 3, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    larsson - not amused? What makes you say that?

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 3, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST

    dc03

    by Ian

    I've often thought that too (about the trilogy), since next season is the anniversary and all that. That would make for an interesting arc with this being the middle, ending with a possible Matt Smith Regen in season 7.

  • ...however this is WHO, and I'll bet we are left with a mother of a cliffhanger. My only concern is Moff just pinning his hopes on that one thing. But I can't see that happening.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Hype

    by sunspot_mike

    I know that expectations are high, but hyping it up really is half the fun. How often do we not only get to speculate about a show blowing our minds, but our FAVORITE show blowing our minds?

  • June 3, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Smith has signed on for one more year. After that it's anyones guess.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • there's always a chance (even if small) that the kid we saw regenerating is Jenny. <br> <br> Or *a* Jenny. I wouldn't put it past Moffat to wrongfoot us by having a leak about "Jenny" and we find out later that Jenny is what Amy names the baby, but it isn't the same Jenny as we saw with Tennant.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:10 p.m. CST

    Re: Spoilers

    by ArmageddonProductions

    I don't think you guys should be anywhere as freaked about the mid-season break as you should be about the actual season finale in the Fall, which they just finished shooting. If you really wanna flip your lid and maybe spoil things a bit, scope its IMDb page and see who all's appearing in it. It's a doozy.</p><p> Oh, and River Song is either the TARDIS (remember, she's been claiming to be the "Doctor's Wife" since "Forest Of The Dead") or the final incarnation of the Doctor, which would explain her knowing his real name, why he gave her a sonic screwdriver, why she's traveling backwards through time, why everything she knows is a "spoiler", how she knows how to operate the TARDIS and, pretty much augments the guest star list for the above-mentioned season finale. She actually wouldn't be the first female Doctor, since Joanna "AbFab" Lumley portrayed a female incarnation in the "Curse Of The Fatal Death" Comic Relief short Moffat wrote years ago. It's gotta be one or the other, but my smart money's on the latter.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    sam -- about the pandorica

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it would be a good way to explain it all and it would be a big, shocking reveal. It could even work. There just is so much which does not make sense, to date, with the alliance. I mean the Daleks I would believe would look for something all on their own -- just find a new universe, for example -- and so something really twisted has to be about the creation of the alliance. And River knew.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:20 p.m. CST

    IMDB is unreliable

    by HornOrSilk

  • June 3, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    The Valeyard

    by HornOrSilk

    I have always felt we really do not know who he is. The Master could very well be mistaken. Before the new series, I had an idea for a Doctor vs Valeyard story in which Omega returned. In it, the Doctor (7th) is being out manipulated by the Valeyard (the Doctor doesn't even know his other self is there for half the story), while thinking Omega is the one who was causing the problem. Omega, however, is saying he has become sane again -- his contact with the 5th Doctor brought his brain back from the brink of insanity which was the result of being in the other universe. In it, the real motives of the Valeyard was going to be explored (which had to deal with manipulation of time, gaining control of the Matrix, etc) while Omega would die a hero's death saving the life of the Doctor. The Doctor would be able to once again have Omega as his hero....

  • June 3, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    That idea

    by HornOrSilk

    Was something I had circa 1990.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    So they're stealing Amy's baby right out of time/existence?

    by tangcameo

    Which would explain the flip-flopping readings. Maybe she really HAS given birth to a Time Head!

  • So much of it is changed, but the idea of someone facing their future self and being manipulated by that future self is key to my story idea.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST

    And that's not a spoiler, just my latest speculation

    by tangcameo

    So don't kick me out!

  • June 3, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST

    "i anticipate a lot of you will be far from amused!"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    My fear is that we will sit back and think 'ok, is that it?" The episode itself looks like a classic RTD 'pack as many characters in as possible' finale which surprises me because RTD is long gone and I thought we had seen the last of this type of overkill. Hopefully it will work and hopefully the big moments will reward the incredible followers this show has but competing with the imagination is a big ask.

  • June 3, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    The baby...

    by TheFerretLives

    At the end we finally see the baby and it has the head of Matt Smith... Nah only kidding. I just hope we're heading for a Lost "we have to go back" twist rather than a Bobby Ewing in the shower ending! F

  • June 3, 2011, 3:30 p.m. CST

    Oh and the other part of my idea

    by HornOrSilk

    Was it would end up with a civil war destroying Time Lord society.... ok, so I was a young fan with a fanwank script idea.. but.. I did have some good ideas with it which will work for my novel (once I get to it).

  • June 3, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    Teaser from Digital Spy... (spoiler)

    by TheFerretLives

    Digital spy gives a redacted quote from the episode that goes a little something like this (RUN DMC STYLEE) "******* ******* is a geography teacher ****** ******* is a superhero." I would like to think that it could be, "The Doctor is the geography teacher River Song is a superhero." The Doc does look like a geography (or Chemistry) teacher in that Tweed jacket (Tweed by the way is worked by being soaked in Urea, or piss to you) and this could be a sign that River is indeed, maybe not THE Doctor but an aspect of him, like the Valeyard is the bad aspect. Either that or it is just a throwaway line that doesn't have anything to do with the story arc. F

  • June 3, 2011, 4 p.m. CST

    theferretlives

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm pretty sure it is Dorium who will be the superhero....

  • June 3, 2011, 4:01 p.m. CST

    Time Head

    by Perigee

    For some reason, Burton's "Batman" has been much on my mind this week. Specifically, the whole "chemicals from this mixed with chemicals from that create Smilex." And now we have this whole Baby thing. Apparently, Amy is something special because of her connection to The Crack. And then wandering around on the Tardis... that's a doozy of a midochlorian-esque, pin-the-tachometer baby brew weirdness as a possibility. so yeah - maybe "Time Head" is the throwaway line. Another thing... "Wizards in fairy tales always turn out to be him..." Like Merlin. Of course, in the legend it's Merlin that's living backwards. Instead of Viviane. You know - Merlin fell in love with her, taught him all he knew, then she locked him in a crypt forever..? Better known perhaps as The Lady of The Lake? These water sign women...

  • June 3, 2011, 4:16 p.m. CST

    clues in the poem?

    by berserkrl

    Currently the official Doctor Who website http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw features River's voice reciting the following poem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4oEukxP2Uc Here's a transcript: "Demons run when a good man goes to war. Night will fall and drown the sun when a good man goes to war. Friendship dies and true loves lies; night will fall and dark will rise when a good man goes to war."

  • June 3, 2011, 4:18 p.m. CST

    correction

    by berserkrl

    "night will fall and THE dark will rise...."

  • June 3, 2011, 4:23 p.m. CST

    Oh BBC, why are you dividing us from our British brothers and sisters?

    by Doctor_Strangepork

  • June 3, 2011, 4:24 p.m. CST

    @armageddonproductions

    by berserkrl

    "River Song is either the TARDIS ... or the final incarnation of the Doctor" Then why would she claim she first met the Doctor when she was a little girl, and that this meeting was in her past but his future? That doesn't match either theory.

  • June 3, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    berserkrl

    by Ian

    Agreed, River being either the Doctor or the TARDIS does not jive. I think she's just going to end up being Amy's daughter, not Rory's or the Doctor's though. It's going to be a time related immaculate conception of some sorts. Odd to wonder if the baby will be in the later episodes on their adventures, or if something happens to it (taken away?) The latter seeming more likely.

  • June 3, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    Speaking of Rutans, although this is many posts later.

    by mukhtabi

    I've often contemplated a two part story concerning them. As we know from Doctor #4, The Rutans are locked in an eternal conflict with the Sontarans. What if the Doctor answers a distress signal only to discover it has emanated from the last Rutan battleship in existence? And the Rutans on board wish asylum from the Shadow Proclamation people? Of course, they would be actively hunted by Sontarans. This could be awesome, assuming any of the minds behind Doctor Who are reading this, I don't want any credit Just title the episodes 'Lost Little Rutans' and 'The Clenching Fist'...

  • June 3, 2011, 4:42 p.m. CST

    here's the (or a) puzzle ...

    by berserkrl

    a) we have good reason to think River is Amy's daughter. (basically, leaked dialogue, plus the name "Melody.") b) we have good reason to think the little girl who was regenerating at the end of episode 2 is Amy's daughter. (namely the orphanage pics) c) but we have good reason to doubt that River is the little girl who was regenerating. (even if Moffat was lying when he told us that "River is 100% human," her being a Time Lord just feels wrong ....) So one of these must be wrong. There's also the question of whether Samurai Jenny = "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny, and if so, where she fits in the mix. The fact that Samurai Jenny is currently one of the four main faces at the top of the BBC website along with Amy, Rory, and the Doctor makes me think she must be important.

  • June 3, 2011, 4:46 p.m. CST

    berskrl

    by mukhtabi

    I don't think that girl with the kitana is Jenny, I strongly suspect that's the young River Song...

  • June 3, 2011, 4:49 p.m. CST

    Rory the Rutan.. you heard it here first

    by HornOrSilk

    And it's not true. But would be a funny twist.

  • June 3, 2011, 4:50 p.m. CST

    "Samurai Jenny = "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Do we even know if this is the case? If memory serves the Dr thinks shes dead? ... Does this episode have time to reintroduce her to the Doc and explain her new look and what shes been doing ...

  • June 3, 2011, 5:07 p.m. CST

    armageddonproductions - River can't be the Doctor

    by DoctorTom

    That would make the kiss at the end of Day of the Moon (with the knowledge that there's more kissing in the future) even creepier in several ways than if it turned out River was his daughter. Going back in time just to kiss yourself? If the Doctor was going to kiss him/herself like that, we'd have probably seen the Doctor and the DoppelDoctor kissing in The Almost People.

  • June 3, 2011, 5:28 p.m. CST

    @mukhtabi

    by berserkrl

    "I don't think that girl with the kitana is Jenny" I don't know whether she's "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny, but she's deifinitely *some* Jenny. I mean, the official site lists her name as Jenny. I do agree that the episode seems a bit cramped to reintroduce "Doctor's Daughter" Jenny here.

  • June 3, 2011, 5:30 p.m. CST

    another reason River can't be the Doctor

    by berserkrl

    Why would it be so traumatic for you to meet a past incarnation of yourself who didn't recognise you?

  • June 3, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    List of evidence for why River Song is the Doctor

    by HornOrSilk

    {empty set}

  • June 3, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    in other news

    by berserkrl

    Rumors of Paul McGann's return keep flying, and I mostly dismiss them. But I do wonder why he looms so large on this page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/

  • June 3, 2011, 5:35 p.m. CST

    sorry, wrong URL

    by berserkrl

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/index.shtml

  • June 3, 2011, 5:40 p.m. CST

    @hornorsilk

    by berserkrl

    She doesn't have nine arms. And NEITHER DOES THE DOCTOR!

  • June 3, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    that's not evidence

    by HornOrSilk

    that's nonsense; the Doctor has a _____ and River doesn't. She has Dalek bumps, but the Doctor doesn't.

  • June 3, 2011, 6 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by Mister Vertue

    '...a bitter man who doesn't play well with others.' That would have won you a Tardis playset if there was one available to win. And that's all I'm permitted to say on that matter.

  • June 3, 2011, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Tegan is my answer

    by HornOrSilk

    For those in the know, you will know.

  • June 3, 2011, 6:06 p.m. CST

    RIVER SONG scrambled is ...

    by berserkrl

    GROVER SIN. Yup, furry lovable Grover did something wrong, and River is the result. She's half-muppet!!!

  • June 3, 2011, 6:22 p.m. CST

    Re: River Song NOT The Doctor?

    by ArmageddonProductions

    Why not? Because they kiss (a lot)? Who else would the Doctor love more than himself? If you stop and think about it, it makes a lot of sense, but so do several other theories. My smart money is on River being the Doctor. That don't make it so. Let's face it, until we actually SEE the episode tomorrow, we won't know anything for sure, except that 98 percent of us are dead wrong.</p><p> Oh, and while the IMDb makes more mistakes than a hedge fund company doing their part to balance the economy, that Episode 13 cast list is actually THE cast list. There's also a rumor regarding a former companion making a cameo that they're keeping completely under wraps (rather like what they're doing regarding who River Song is now)

  • June 3, 2011, 6:47 p.m. CST

    SPOILER ALERT! Someone has "full-on boy-sex" in this episode!

    by MrMysteryGuest

  • June 3, 2011, 7:26 p.m. CST

    17 hours, 13 minutes & 50 seconds!!!!

    by Seph_J

    not that I'm, err....counting....

  • June 3, 2011, 7:51 p.m. CST

    Speculation about the child...

    by Bald Evil

    Not having seen the next two episodes after "The Rebel Flesh"... is it possible the mysterious little girl with Time Lord powers is the daughter of River and the Doctor? Or that the child is the Doctor himself?

  • Sounds like the opposite of what people are generally expecting ...

  • June 3, 2011, 8:19 p.m. CST

    there's only ONE holy fuck moment we're expecting...

    by Seph_J

    ...and that will, no doubt, come at the end. And will be THE REVEAL of Professor River Song's identity.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:52 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights & sam jacksons wig

    by Merrick

    Thank you both very much.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:53 p.m. CST

    pogue__mahone

    by Merrick

    You're quite welcome. Loving all of this.

  • June 3, 2011, 9:59 p.m. CST

    v'shael

    by Merrick

    Almost certainly a by-product of our site's "teething problems." Even though our new tech structure & admin fields have been in place for close to six months now, we're still discovering oddness and glitches every day and we're still feeling our way around the new system. I'll zing our tech folks about that disappearing TB issue, though & see if we can't get it sorted out. Thanks for bearing with us.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:42 p.m. CST

    Merrick.

    by MoffatBabies

    I love you.

  • June 3, 2011, 10:48 p.m. CST

    and I'm not even making those apologies and conditionals

    by MoffatBabies

    that men make after they confess love to one another. I just love ya, man.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:04 p.m. CST

    I was just discussing Who (and DockBack) with a very old

    by MoffatBabies

    friend of mine. We go way back. We made super 8 films together in high school, watched various films together multiple times (Excalibur, Raiders, ROTJ, anything De Palma... hundreds of films) and have a massive, storied history together. He loves old Who but STILL has not given the more current series' a chance beyond a single viewing of an episode from the Eccleston series. He was CONVINCED that the show had abandoned the history of the established universe and even now gets a "re-make" feel from it. I have tried to explain how far off the mark this is, but he's become stubborn about it for some reason. Maybe it's just not for him, but I get the feeling that if hooked just the right way... he'll be a fan for life. I've got to find a way to get him into the fold, and I have recommended the common favorites to start with(Blink, The Girl in the Fireplace, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead)... obvious choices. But I want a list of the most mythology-rich episodes, with call-backs and references to the past. I could probably come up with a decent list myself, but I figured the collective brains here would serve me much better. Help BE my brain... and bring this lost soul back into the fold. He truly does not know what he is missing. Do you have a list of what you would believe to be the most past-mythology-rich episodes? Maybe a short list of your 3 best choices? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can take care of getting the episodes to him by loaning him the DVDs.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:25 p.m. CST

    moffatbabies

    by Perigee

    Well, one is easy enough - with a kick hard enough to jump start him: The Pandorica Opens. 1) Everybody's there. 2) Smith's "Let someone else go first." speech. 3) The most dangerous warrior in the universe revealed to be the doctor. 4) Who the hell is that feisty old broad with the firearm, and why is she calling The Doctor "My Love...?" 4b) Why is a Van Gogh painting given to Winston Churchill, who calls the feisty old broad to steal it from some kind of future British Queen and it has the TARDIS Blowing up? 5) Dead/undead auton Rory killing the companion. 6) And then, the universe blows up. If you want an episode that has it all, there it is. Of course, he'd eventually need to do some back engineering to approach or understand pt.2, pt. 1 is standalone enough to pique anyones' interest. And, honestly, if that isn't the one, none of them are.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:26 p.m. CST

    The most past-mythology-rich episodes

    by lantern48

    -School Reunion - obviously. - The Sontaran Stratagem - not particularly great, but fits your criteria. - Turn Left - not really mythology rich, but has a very old-school flavor. -Time Crash Special - that might charm and amuse your friend. -Eleventh Hour - Again, not so much mythology rich, but it's a great start that might do the trick anyway.

  • June 3, 2011, 11:50 p.m. CST

    River Song is NOT ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    The Doctor - that wouldn't make any sense at all. Amy - because otherwise she'd know what Amy's house looks like inside. Rory - because she's just not, okay? Captain Jack Harkness or The Master - because even RTD wouldn't make the Doc that gay. Rose - because enough with fucking Rose already. Jenny, the Doc's daughter - because ick. Jenny, the Ganger - because, really, ick. Madame Kevorkian - because River is certainly a good egg and the Madame certainly ain't. The girl who regenerates - because the Doc and the Moff both said she's 100% human. Of course the Doc lies but the Moff, AFAIK, doesn't. Donna - because enough with fucking Donna too. Plus remember River saying "Doctor I don't know why I let you out". She's got to be a TARDIS ganger constructed out of the flesh left over when Gamy splooshed. As for that business about how she's known the Doc since she was a little girl - well, how old was she when he stole her?

  • June 3, 2011, 11:51 p.m. CST

    Whoops, forgot to say, if you haven't seen Ep 6, SPOILER!

    by veteran_of_mu

  • June 3, 2011, 11:54 p.m. CST

    Moffetbabies, your buddy HAS to watch...

    by Red43jes

    ...Tennant episodes, Human nature and The Family of Blood. Thats the episodes where the Doctor loses his memory. Theres his diary he keeps that shows the past Doctors. VERY cool episodes! BTW, get my email?

  • June 4, 2011, 12:48 a.m. CST

    I'm in the US and I've seen "The Almost People"

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    And I'm gonna see the finale Saturday night dammnit!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:49 a.m. CST

    And that's a pretty bland poster of Baker.

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    What, no Dalek love? Just a plunger? FAIL.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:08 a.m. CST

    So are we up for Seeing the Sontarians tomorrow?

    by Jawsh Murdock

    The last two episodes show that who ever the eye patch lady is, she knows how to make the "gangers," which obviously looks just like Sontarian tech (as did the ganger's protective suits for that matter). I think they'll definitely involved somehow. Who is River? The mother of all Sontarians!! Ha... no, I don't know. Well... this is the last DW for awhile, and I'm watching it tomorrow. And after that. I guess I'll just have to survive on Torchwood. God help me.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:14 a.m. CST

    I wonder how many more episodes we'll get of Amy, Rory and River?

    by Jawsh Murdock

    It sounds like the actors that play Rory and Amy won't be in the show after this season, and keeping River for much longer would be a bit odd in my opinion. Having new companions for this doctor would interesting, IMO. He's sort of been defined by his relationship to Amy so far. I'd like to see him get away from her and see what kind of man he is with a completely different companion. Heck, bring back K9 and Romana!

  • June 4, 2011, 3:27 a.m. CST

    Fuck off with the K9 and Romana shite.

    by V'Shael

    That stuff belongs on crappy fanwank youtube videos, where fucktards can claim they have exclusive spoilers for the upcoming season. Then list it as a "rumour". Invariably, if I come across such a video, I'll comment : "It's not a rumour. It's you, wanking into a gymsock." And that never goes over well.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:33 a.m. CST

    River Song is K9!

    by berserkrl

    Just do the math: 1. K9 is a companion of Sarah Jane. 2. Rani Chandra is a companion of Sarah Jane. 3. River Song = the Rani. 4. Therefore: River Song = K9. That, my friends, is called logic.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:36 a.m. CST

    I'm calling it...

    by dj_bollocks

    Amy's Mum is River.... we never did see her folks... and she was placed to be safe in her Auntie's house in The 11th Hour... Ah well it's no dafter than it could be...

  • ...so don't get your knickers in a twist if certain plot points are left dangling. I am sure that they will all be revealed in time. (pun intended)

  • June 4, 2011, 4:06 a.m. CST

    They might have been at the wedding SJW...

    by dj_bollocks

    Or she might have been "out of time" at that point...? Who knows ? I'm just throwing it out there so that I can be inordinately smug if I'm right or never mention it again if I'm wrong !

  • June 4, 2011, 4:14 a.m. CST

    We saw Amy's folks

    by HornOrSilk

    However, one could also say, if one wanted to, that Amy "made them up" to replace the folks she never knew? Doubt it, too. But there is always a way

  • June 4, 2011, 4:15 a.m. CST

    River is Davros' mom

    by HornOrSilk

    And Davros is the Doctor's son. Ok, thankfully not.

  • 1) These forums are open to anyone. 2) They are a mechanism for individuals to put forward their thoughts, opinions and also their desires, and are one of the last bastions of free thought I have seen on the net that doesn't throw censorship in your face every 10 seconds. 3) With the exception of trolls, everyone has a right to submit. 4) We should be encouraging new people into the collective (a nod to all of you Trek fans out there ;)) and this DocBack is riddled with them. I LOVE NEW DOC WHO FANS, AND SO DO OTHERS OUT THERE!! It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM gives other (long standing) WHO fans/Posters the right to personally attack others because of what they decide to write regarding the subject matter. What you might consider tosh may be something close to their hearts. (and we can generally tell those who are just taking the piss...) Yes, some of it is not very good, but who are we to stop them? Why not, instead, point them in the right direction and give them the benefit of your knowledge instead of a VERBAL ATTACK littered with expletives? I am sure you will be appreciated more and not looked at like some venomous know it all who only has time for themselves. So, fuck off with the attitude shite! Please play nice with others and show them the respect you wish to be shown yourself.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:31 a.m. CST

    Horn- the black guardian is captain jack harkness's lover....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....and the Brain of Morbius is K9's second cousin twice removed. Maybe....

  • June 4, 2011, 4:32 a.m. CST

    Also, we should all just post in this one DocBack

    by HornOrSilk

    Though it is cool to have so many DocBacks, we need to select this one to keep up to make sure we stay #1!

  • June 4, 2011, 4:33 a.m. CST

    dj- but we shall surely mention it again, my good sir!!! ....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...unless your right and we will suddenly forget the post ever existed ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 4:35 a.m. CST

    I think there is a silent around here...

    by HornOrSilk

    I keep having some memory jumps after reading posts..

  • June 4, 2011, 5:01 a.m. CST

    True Story: A Good Man Goes To Extraordinary Lengths To Watch This Episode

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    On Wednesday my computer broke. It wasn't a virus or some sort of system problem. I unintentionally destroyed the thing. If you're wondering why this might be a problem when it comes to today's DOCTOR WHO then I should mention that I don't have a television. When my last television broke, I decided that, as my computer was top of the range and the BBC offers iplayer, I would just use my computer. After all, I don't watch any other British shows. DOCTOR WHO is the only reason I pay my license fee. So, there I am at 10:30pm at night, thinking "Fuck!" Usually I would have probably spent a week trying to decide on what computer to buy as a replacement. Not this fucking week. I got into my office an hour early on Thursday, quickly went through all of my options on Amazon and narrowed it down to those that included a message "Purchase within X hours and choose the Express Delivery option to receive by Friday". A few clicks later and the wait began. Yesterday, my shiny new computer arrived at work. A taxi ride home at 5pm and two hours later, it was set up. THIS is what I've gone through to watch today's episode. It better destroy my brain with its awesomeness or a grown man will weep right here before you.

  • ... a time consuming task, to be sure, but one that may work. The Master (Jon Simm) offering his wife a jelly baby... ..school reunion with the beautiful Liz Sladen and the ever so annoying to anyone over the age of 5 K9..... ....The opening scenes from The Almost People with clone Doc going through past regenerations...... .... the showdown on the roof between the Doc and the Atraxi from the 1th hour where we get to see each doctor before Matt Smith tears the fucking house down by walking through Tennants face as cool as a mountain of polo mints.... Oh, and there are so many others!!!! Good luck with this lost soul!!!!

  • ... a time consuming task, to be sure, but one that may work. The Master (Jon Simm) offering his wife a jelly baby... ..school reunion with the beautiful Liz Sladen and the ever so annoying to anyone over the age of 5 K9..... ....The opening scenes from The Almost People with clone Doc going through past regenerations...... .... the showdown on the roof between the Doc and the Atraxi from the 1th hour where we get to see each doctor before Matt Smith tears the fucking house down by walking through Tennants face as cool as a mountain of polo mints.... Oh, and there are so many others!!!! Good luck with this lost soul!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 5:10 a.m. CST

    and it should have been 11th hour, I know- my keypad had a brain fart...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 5:14 a.m. CST

    I think River will ask The Doctor a VERY important question at the end of this episode

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    "So Doctor. Horn.... or silk?"

  • As for televisions, the only room in the house that doesn't have one is the bathroom, and I have seriously considered it I'm telling you!! There is even one in the conservatory so when I'm sitting in there (like now) with my laptop I can have the TV on. But it's a bit different as we have Sky TV with multi-room. As for computers- one in the study, one in each of the kids rooms, a laptop, a notepad and a fucking IPad (wifes, not mine!! I hate them!)- so I will NEVER be far away from watching what the fuck I want!!! Besides, I will one day have fingers SOOOOOOOOO fast that I will be able to type 12 different messages on each computer in the house before you've typed one!! MMMWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 5:25 a.m. CST

    Definately Horn........ most definately!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 5:25 a.m. CST

    How about something left field...

    by s0l

    We all know the Doctor was married with a family that died during or before the time war. Couple of things that hit me as slightly interesting: Probably not possible but interesting: What if River Song IS his wife. We know that she is 100% human, but remember that the original Hartnell Era was a grandfather with a human wife and family. So The Doctor taking a human wife is not that outlandish... (just need to figure out if she's changed her appearance or the time war wiped the memory of her looks from the doctor's mind.) Possible and VERY interesting: The Child we see IS his "pre time-war" daughter (after a couple of regenerations how would he recognise her?) and the space-suit was to protect her from the temporal lock on the time war. Now THAT would be a good WTF?!? moment to end this half of the season on....

  • June 4, 2011, 5:34 a.m. CST

    The ending

    by HornOrSilk

    River is on screen, looking to the Doctor. Suddenly she changes shape and looks just like... Moffat. "Hello Doctor. I'm the producer. And this is your life."

  • Some speculation that Amy is leaving sometime this season comes from this statement: ""I am playing Jean Shrimpton in a BBC4 drama We’ll Take Manhattan but I have just literally gone from Doctor Who to that so I haven’t had a chance to sit and have a think. I actually would really like to go home to Scotland for a little while and reflect on what has happened and then decide what my next move is, but I don’t know what that is yet." HOWEVER It could mean she finally has a break before another season. But I doubt it. I think her story will have been played out.. and we need someone new...

  • June 4, 2011, 6:08 a.m. CST

    Sam Jackson's Wig

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I wish I was you, buddy. Living in your big multi-television house with your lovely wife. And then I remember how slow your fingers are. And I'm glad that I'm me!

  • June 4, 2011, 6:11 a.m. CST

    I'm watching DW: A CHRISTMAS CAROL

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I haven't watched this since Christmas and forgot how fantastic it is! Funny, tense, romantic, action-packed and filled with great special effects. Ten times better than any of the previous Christmas specials (although I do have a soft spot for The Christmas Invasion, but only because of Ten's introduction in the final third of the episode).

  • June 4, 2011, 6:34 a.m. CST

    When you are alone, silence is all you will have

    by HornOrSilk

    Possible indication of the Doctor's real relationship with the silence?

  • June 4, 2011, 6:36 a.m. CST

    on about???

    by TheFerretLives

  • June 4, 2011, 6:38 a.m. CST

    As for Horn or Silk

    by HornOrSilk

    Depends upon what the meaning of is is.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:39 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Possibly! She really does have a fantastic voice. I don't see how they can top this CW special, to be honest. It's just so brilliant. Still, it's Moffat we're talking about and he's always managing to surprise me. I think I might watch SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY next...

  • June 4, 2011, 6:46 a.m. CST

    bale

    by Seph_J

    yep, SitL and FotD are the ones to watch today.

  • Besides, you are more than welcome to my two brattish gits of kids..... .... and all of the joy the two dirty sods bring!!! I recently found a pair of worn underpants in my eldest daughters room that had been casually thrown in with clean garments. That, and the half eaten sandwich she decide she didn't want at 1 in the morning.....

  • June 4, 2011, 6:58 a.m. CST

    Horn- regarding your spoiler..... (spoilerish)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...Arthur Darvill is in the middle of something as well, and something that will affect the start date of the next series of Who. So, it looks like they could both go. yup yup yup.....

  • June 4, 2011, 7:04 a.m. CST

    what if... (*SPECULATIVE, though unlikely SPOILERS*)

    by Seph_J

    ....Amy is wiped from existance (as her parents were in series 5) but her child survives, so the doc just takes the child back in time, and drops her off at young Amys house, in place of Amy.... so the child then lives through the time that Amy would have? A life never lived, sort of thing. Would at least be pretty tragic.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:15 a.m. CST

    sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I do think Amy is wearing thin, and unless SM comes up with something new, it is time to move on from her. I think SM knows this, and so I expect this will happen.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:17 a.m. CST

    Sam and to your speculative thought

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think that will happen; but.. I keep thinking... what if the child turns out to be.. the Doctor himself? But not because the Doctor is Amy's mother... but... rather, the baby somehow gets the regenerations of the Doctor, and so merges with the Doctor to become the Doctor? Thus in the Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor is doing something to make sure the kid knows what will happen...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:19 a.m. CST

    SPOILER SPECULATION ep 13 and beyond...

    by notspock2

    Given this whole "no more Amy and Rory rumour- and the rumour of an unannounced guest star in ep 13... Anyone think it might be Carey Mulligan getting into place for the Christmas Special? She has said she'd do Who again...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:23 a.m. CST

    Although it would cause... (*Spec Spoilers Cont...*)

    by Seph_J

    so many holes elsewhere, it would kind of be nice if Amy WAS the Doc's mother, and that the Claire Bloom character was Amy in the future... because then at least 'The Woman' who is/is not the Doctor's Mother will be tied up once and for all. I mean.. what WAS that all about??

  • June 4, 2011, 7:31 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig (and ALL)

    by Merrick

    *** It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM gives other (long standing) WHO fans/Posters the right to personally attack others because of what they decide to write regarding the subject matter. *** I agree. And if, at any point, any of you feel someone is being unnecessarily or unrepentantly rude just because they can be - please don't hesitate to let me know.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:35 a.m. CST

    merrick have you seen any

    by Seph_J

    of the Sarah Jane Adventures? There's a couple of episodes, such as 'Death of the Doctor' which really add to the DW history. Worth checking them out...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    CBTML ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    I hope you had the good sense to get yourself a Mac. (Ducks)

  • June 4, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    Did you ever see The Stranger?

    by HornOrSilk

    They ruined it after "In Memory Alone." They should have kept the series as "this is the Doctor, but we wont' name him." Ever since I saw "Summoned by Shadows" I always wanted to do a re-edit of the first 6th Doctor story. Have the beginning in the TARDIS then have the Doctor become a hermit as he said he should... and use that to lead in to Summoned by Shadows. Much better than the Twin Twits of Mathematical Incompetency. And In Memory Alone did an excellent Matrix-like take before Dark City andthe Matrix.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:46 a.m. CST

    In Memory Alone

    by HornOrSilk

    Yeah, the opening is a bit weak, but once you get into it.. worth a watch if you have not seen it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc6PbWwtu_o is part 1

  • June 4, 2011, 7:52 a.m. CST

    River Song reveal...

    by HornOrSilk

    The last minute we suddenly see River Song change shape and turns out.. River.. was Kamelion all along.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:54 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    You know what I would like for a season? Amy is dead. Rose is dead. Martha is dead. Donna is dead. They get killed off and the Doctor with the Doctor and Rory and Wilf go out to find a way to bring them back to life. It requires all kinds of breach of the rules of time, causing all kinds of complications. In one episode, the Doctor has fooled with the past so much, he becomes.. the 8th Doctor.. all alone... only by the end to fix up the time line. There. That's the 50th anniversary series.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:56 a.m. CST

    I could even tie up my 50th anniversary fanwank series

    by HornOrSilk

    With the cracks in time... and everything else which has happened to date..

  • June 4, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    Unanswered questions at the end of all things..... (could be spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    According to another site, the Doc whispers something crucil into the ear of River Song. Nothing is mentioned as to what it is, but they have theorised that River knew of the Doctors death from the Astronaut, and more importantly that this specific event would be a continuance into series 7. "It looks like we’ll have to wait until Series Seven to discover what The Doctor really whispered to River at at some point this Series, and how they use that to bring The Doctor back or stop him being killed by the Astronaut." River is also quoted as to say "That man.....always thinking so far ahead..." So, does this mean MORE River Song in the next series???? Hmmmmmm....

  • June 4, 2011, 8:12 a.m. CST

    Looks like The Reign of Terror is being completed with animations

    by HornOrSilk

    http://bigfinish.com/news/The-Reign-of-Terror-Animated-Missing-Episodes

  • June 4, 2011, 8:13 a.m. CST

    More River Song

    by HornOrSilk

    I expect so. While we might know who she is, I do think we will also find out she DOES have many more adventures with the Doctor. We won't see them all, nor will need to see them all, but I do think we will see more of them as the years go on by. At least as long as the Moff is in charge.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:15 a.m. CST

    In my 50th anniversay series

    by HornOrSilk

    I would also reveal who and what the Valeyard really was; it is the Doctor - with all his anger- unleashed against the Time Lords for the Time War... however, he will also find a solution and bring back the Time Lords at the end of the season as he saves Donna and himself completes his regeneration...

  • June 4, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST

    anniversary

    by HornOrSilk

    That r isn't working all the time it seems...

  • June 4, 2011, 8:22 a.m. CST

    Horn- my 5oth anniversary series?

    by sam jacksons wig

    Rose is dead. Martha is dead. Donna is dead. Marthas mother is dead. Donnas mother is dead. Everyone has a HUGE cock-er-nee style street party to celebrate. The end. Ah- the bliss!!!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 8:24 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk and CBTML

    by Bill Hoops

    Hornorsilk: Can a comment about her career really be called a spoiler. Sooner or later, Amy stays home,and with a child, most of us think it will be soon. At least from what I have read. A spoiler in my book is one that takes the story away from you, not the fact that an actor will no longer appear. Really, wasn't showing us the Doctor being killed a spoiler in itself? Knowing where you are going isn't the spoiler, it is telling about how we get there that screws up the story. Am I correct on that one? CBTML: I rewatched Silence in the Library last night and wow, the nods to future episodes are all over the place.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:24 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    You mean Davros actually gets off the toilet and tap dances for a change?

  • Perhaps River is Amy's baby (could it just be a red herring, a massive whopping red herring, that the baby is being called Melody? Melody Pond? Swap them around and change names to something similar?) and also perhaps she is the little girl in TIA and DOTM but it doesn't mean she is a timelord? Maybe because she was somehow created in an immaculate conception sort of way in the Tardis she needed to be kept in the spaceman suit to protect her until she could survive on her own. To help this happen the Doctor lets her take his regeneration energy (when he is shot by the astronaut in the lake) and when we see the girl regenerate it is the only time she will do it, and become River Song. That would tie in with River killing the best man she ever knew and also tie in with her being 100% human, albeit created in an unusual way. The way the astronaut appeared out of the lake and then disappeared suggests there was a tardis, THE tardis, in its invisible mode. I thought perhaps that it was the Doc in the suit and he was taking his future self's energy to heal himself after the events of this mid-series finale, or the series finale, but it could also be the girl, which is what everyone thought but the mystery was why really. F

  • June 4, 2011, 9:05 a.m. CST

    seph_j

    by Merrick

    I did see "Death of the Doctor" - which other SJA (DW relevant) episodes would you suggest? Thanks a ton...

  • June 4, 2011, 9:15 a.m. CST

    merrick (re: SJA/DW relevant episodes)

    by dogrobber

    Don't remember how much they contributed to the overall mythos, but Mr. Tennant did appear in the SJA episode (or episodes) "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith", and Nicholas Courtney put in some time as the Brigadier in "Enemy of the Bane". (not sure if that is the information/answers you were looking for)

  • June 4, 2011, 9:17 a.m. CST

    merrick also just another thanks for this 'docback'

    by dogrobber

    this is great (and great fun)!

  • June 4, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    re: Donna - because enough with fucking Donna too.

    by Volllllume3

    There can NEVER be enough Donna. EVER.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:30 a.m. CST

    theferretlives

    by Bill Hoops

    I suspect that the station wagon was the Tardis in camouflage.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:32 a.m. CST

    hoopster

    by TheFerretLives

    I can't help but think that the Tardis' ability to "cloak" being introduced in this episode was a big hint. F

  • June 4, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    plus...

    by TheFerretLives

    on DWC I think they mentioned that it opened differently but they had the afterthought of the car to make it more "American". F

  • June 4, 2011, 9:34 a.m. CST

    I mean the show opened differently not the Tardis!

    by TheFerretLives

  • June 4, 2011, 9:45 a.m. CST

    theferretlives

    by Bill Hoops

    I believe that the Tardis always had a Chameleon circuit that was supposed to be non-functional. IIRC the Rani's Tardis was always disguised as something else. The bus does drive past and there is no car, then the bus drives away and it is there. That is what leads me to think it was the Tardis.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:51 a.m. CST

    theferretlives

    by HornOrSilk

    The TARDIS ability to be invisible wasn't introduced this season, but we were reminded of it.. The Invasion has it happen to the TARDIS (however, not on purpose, and indeed, the TARDIS needed to be fixed because of it).

  • June 4, 2011, 9:54 a.m. CST

    hoopster

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, it can be a spoiler. While we knew she wouldn't be with the Doctor forever, if we know this season is the last for her, it tells us things to expect which some might not want to know. Oh, and as for Silence in the Library.. I'm sure there are twists... which connect to it. I'm almost positive River will be remade via the flesh or something like it through the Library. The Doctor's plan was more than just to "save" her!

  • June 4, 2011, 10:08 a.m. CST

    Donna was awesome

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Rose was annoying. Martha was boring. Donna was the bee's knees.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:13 a.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by Ian

    I agree 100%. Rose for me became better because of the story they built around her, but Donna is certainly heads and shoulders above the new companions (yes, I like her better than Amy too) Donna's father was brilliant too. Aw man I miss those two.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:25 a.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Do you mean her grandfather, Wilf? Yes, he was great too! He's one of the few reasons I'd ever watch THE END OF TIME.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:30 a.m. CST

    slight spoiler

    by Russell Skaife

    thought id quote from a tv guide here in England There are touching scenes when rory meets his child and amy reveals shes named her Melody. "Melody Williams" he says proudly. "Melody williams is a geography teacher - Melody Pond is a superhero" corrects amy Is it just me or anyone else notice the similarities between River song = Melody pond???????

  • June 4, 2011, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Well thats because Bernard Cribbins is a national treasure...

    by V'Shael

    Anyone who has yet to see his appearance on Never mind the buzzcocks needs to YouTube it in a hurry.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:31 a.m. CST

    Foreshadowing

    by Gorehog

    Didn't River once say she was in prison for killing "a good man. The best"? After the doctor is killed in "The Impossible Astronaut" she shoots at the back of the girl/astronaut and then says "Of course not". Anyone else think they're setting up to give the doctor a hole new set of regenerations?

  • June 4, 2011, 10:33 a.m. CST

    Well, yeah...

    by Gorehog

    They're always meeting out of order.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by Ian

    Bah! Grandfather of course.

  • He truly was just wonderful! The one thing I am glad about this season is keeping the extended families out of it, though. Amy and Rory are more than enough...(and as it happens, there might be more branches of the family tree show up rather unexpectedly.) without a couple of mum and dads. I feared we would get the Aunt and the handsome internet porn guy when the 11th hour aired, but thankfully, no. Marthas family- I really couldn't have given 2 shits about that happened to any of them. Donna's mum needed to be killed off inhumanely. I just hated every morsel of her being.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Ian

    Not to mention I think he had more in common with the doctor than most I think, a youthful wonder at the universe even at an advanced age. Also, Donna's mum did need a good session of murder.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:48 a.m. CST

    RE: slight spoiler

    by TheFerretLives

    Oh so that is the geography teacher...superhero quote! So it is confirmed = Melody Pond, which backwards and changed to synonyms is.... F

  • June 4, 2011, 10:56 a.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry - companions....

    by sam jacksons wig

    If I had to choose one of them, then Catherine Tate had the edge because she was more of a middle aged plain jane- I liked that they went with that and not just with the pretty pretty things. So, she had to back things up with her acting skills. However, none of the new Who companions have really woed the fuck out of me. Rose was too in love with the Doc (especially Tennants- I didn't really feel it with Eccleson, he was more like a jolly mate) and it clouded things a wee bit before finally becoming the storyline. Martha then professed love for the Doc after about 5 minutes. That didn't work either as there was absolutely zero chemistry between her and Tennant (and the powers realised it...). Donna, however was complete bombastic sass; verbal annhililation to whomever foolish enough to engage her in discourse. The DoctorDonna character crushed whatever goodwill she had built up with me. I just hated it.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:59 a.m. CST

    The big Companion death party...

    by Perigee

    About that... Could we license that song from "Scrooge?" "Thank ya very much! Thank ya very much! That's the nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me! It seems a bit bizarre, But things the way they are, I feel like a losing war's been won for me! And if I had a cannon I would fire it Just to add that celebration touch! But since I left my cannon at home, I'll simply have to say, Thank you very very very much!"

  • June 4, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST

    1 hour and 45 minutes until Demons begin to run....

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST

    starts at 6:40pm BST. 100 minutes...

    by V'Shael

  • June 4, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    The scene bewteen Tennant and Cribbins in the End of Time part 2....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....Wilf is trying to give the Doctor a hand gun. More depth than the Atlantic Ocean... ....I can remember holding my breath through the entire scene. Completely mesmirised, a whole slurry of emotions and feelings crging through me and almost reducing me to tears. Absolutely beautiful thanks to both men. I could have sat there and watched them act for hours.

  • ...which I think most of us have known for some time now anyway. I just wish they had a better method for tying it together.

  • June 4, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    Anyone here have the Doctor Who Adventures In Time & Space RPG?

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I just bought it and it's quite good. Now to debate whether to go and grab a big tub of icecream from the shop before the episode begins....

  • June 4, 2011, 11:17 a.m. CST

    1 hour and 20 minutes until alliances are forged and gods may fall...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 11:17 a.m. CST

    The thing is --

    by HornOrSilk

    If River is Amy's daughter, what would that have meant to Alex when the Moff told her this? I thought he told her when they did Silence in the Library... So, even if this is the case, is it really the BIG shocking reveal? We are all talking about it, so I say, probably not!

  • June 4, 2011, 11:19 a.m. CST

    "When you run with the Doctor, it feels like it'll never end....

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    ....But however hard you try you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever for one moment, ACCEPTS it."

  • June 4, 2011, 11:20 a.m. CST

    What happened to Frozen Rene?

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Haven't seen her around for a while...

  • June 4, 2011, 11:31 a.m. CST

    CBTML- those quotes just give you the fucking goosebumps, don't they?

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Okay, it's time to call your friends and family

    by Mister Vertue

    And remind them to leave the good weather outside, and switch off the footy and the BGT Final, and settle down to watch the best piece of television that they'll see all week. Phooey to Wayne Rooney! Phooey to Simon Cowell! Huzzah to The Doctor! Just over an hour to go until episode 7 (or episode 777 as I insist on calling it to anyone who will listen) and I'm locking the entire family in the house. Let's all find out who River Song really is. Although I must say, was that the question you were *really* asking? Hmmm...

  • June 4, 2011, 11:43 a.m. CST

    I'm getting butterflies...

    by TheFerretLives

    There's a part of me doesn't want to find out!!! But then I can't bide not being in on the reveal! Aaarghhh!!! F

  • June 4, 2011, 11:44 a.m. CST

    56 minutes!!

    by Seph_J

  • June 4, 2011, 11:47 a.m. CST

    55 minutes until the Doc falls farther than he ever has...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • ...as I already know. How it all ends and how the Doctor falls is where my interest lies. And I can't fucking wait!!!!!!

  • ITs awfully hard to find a spot to converse with you two during the docbacks! LOL, not mad about it either, just wish I had something worthwhile to throw in so I could get into the conversation.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    It's one of my favorite Man_Of_Vertue DW quotes. Erm... I meant Moffat.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    39 minutes until Rivers run and timelords bleed....

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    red43jes

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I never have anything worthwhile to contribute either but it's never stopped me, buddy!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    man_of_vertue

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Huzzah to The Doctor, indeed!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    This is the only TB I bother with anymore.

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    Glad to hear it's going to continue.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    merrick

    by Seph_J

    Well, the Slitheen, Sontarans and Judoon crop up at various points through the 4 series, (episode titles invariably give them away), and there are constant references to SJ's time with the Doctor (the little Peladon reference in 'The Temptation of Sarah Jane' makes me smile) and the Trickster (mentioned in DW - particularly in 'Turn Left') is a great and actually creepy-as-fuck recurring villain. K9 becomes a regular too(!) The thing with SJA it's a perfect kids show, but for those who love all things Who, it retains a certain sense of adventure that DW has, and throws in more than enough hints of SJs previous adventures to keep us fans happy. Obviously 'Death of the Doctor' is a proper fangasm, and 'The Wedding Of Sarah Jane Smith' with Doc10 are good to see too. Aside from Death of the Doctor - which actually gives us brand new info about the doc's companions, and about what Doc 10 was getting up to before he regenerated into 11 - the other's don't bring an awful lot of new stuff to DW lore.... BUT they do keep past events at the forefront of the show, which is really, really nice. Thank you RTD ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Sams Wig

    by Red43jes

    Really the only thing I can think to say is I suspect a swerve coming soon for all of us. Too easy for all of us to guess that River is Amys daughter, or is it? Second, I'm hoping that River somehow manages to be around for a good while...maybe have different actresses come in and play her for story archs. Qyuite an interesting character for the Doctor, have seen one quite as interesting since Romana (I say that meaning Romana and the Doctor had a unique chemistry-2 time lords). Since Romana, sure, theres been a LOT of sidekicks I've dug, but I always felt that Romana was really the only one as clever as the Doctor.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    The anticipation is killing me. My fingers are sweating like a fish!

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    ...Do fish even HAVE fingers?

  • June 4, 2011, 12:09 p.m. CST

    Don't know if this has been covered or not...

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    And I don't know if it's true. I could look it up, but it's more fun to talk about it then look it up in case it turns out to be BS that would have been fun if it weren't BS. But last season there were some Doctor Who video games that were posted for download, and Moffat sounded like they were considered in-continuity. A kid told me a couple of days ago that in the Cybermen game, the Cybus industries Cybermen and the real Cybermen got together. And the Cybermen from this season do appear to be missing the Cybus logo.

  • wHO ARE YOU???????

  • June 4, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST

    "A kid told me..."

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Come on now, Johndillingers20inchseveredcock (can't believe I just typed that), there's no shame in admitting you played those games. I had a go at the Dalek one. I was shit.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST

    Did John Dillinger HAVE 20 inch severed cock? I need to know!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 12:13 p.m. CST

    so, guys, I'm done. Just watched all 8 River Song

    by Seph_J

    stories in a row (pheewww!) and damn! aren't they ALL just so good?! It's like Moffat enjoys writing for her so much that it ELEVATES everything about the whole show. One thing we don't seem to be talking about much, is that River Song is an ARCHEOLOGIST. But where? with who? Surely this is important as we go further back to her earlier days...

  • June 4, 2011, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Mr 20 inch schlong....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..the Cybermen this season DO have the cybus "C" mark on them. There is a rumour that we will see 2 factions of Cybermen. Goody goody!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    Sam Jackson

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    I encountered a rumor a few years back that after John Dillinger's death, the FBI removed a twenty inch wiener from his corpse and locked it up in a warehouse. I was intrigued enough to look it up, and it turned out to be false. But it seemed like a good enough TB handle. I admit I am a little tired of it.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    red43jes

    by sam jacksons wig

    Romanadvoratrelundar was a sexy lady, in BOTH versions, but the perfect foil for the Doc? For me, having another time lord as a companion was a bit of a mistake, as a human is much more interesting and have yet to see the things a timelord sees. As for a swerve- yup. Keep watching, mate, and join the discussion afterwards. You wont be disappointed. Welcome to the DocBack. Don't be shy to post anything you want.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST

    17 minutes until a darkest hour is upon us.....

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST

    And two factions of Cybermen?

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    Sounds good to me! Matt Smith said in an interview a few months back that he wanted to see some Troughton era Cybermen on the show. I doubt that would happen, but it would be cool, wouldn't it? We're getting a cybermat!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Ian

    That scene with the gun was amazing, and I completely agree that it could of went on much longer than it did, and would have remained just as important as any scene in the new Who series. The Doctor Donna aspect was kind of a weird point with her character, I don't know if I dislike it as much as you did, but it certainly did detract from the work they put into her character leading up to it. I felt the angle was clever, just executed poorly.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:26 p.m. CST

    "Lux can manage without me...

    by Seph_J

    ...BUT YOU CAN'T!" BAM

  • June 4, 2011, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Cybus Industries

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    I did see a photo awhile back where the Cybus logo was definitely removed. I believe there was just a plain circle in its place. I don't know if it was from this week's episode or the second part. Or the logo was just shopped away by some asshole.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:27 p.m. CST

    dillingerscock

    by Seph_J

    that picture is real, and is on the official BBC DW website

  • June 4, 2011, 12:30 p.m. CST

    Mr Huge Dillinger penis.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...you could change it, and become...(deep breath) theartistformerlyknownasjohndillingers20inchseveredcock.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:30 p.m. CST

    aaah sshhiitt!!

    by Seph_J

    10 MINUTES

  • June 4, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST

    V'Shael- umm, it was just an offhanded joke

    by Jawsh Murdock

    A fanwank YouTube vid from me? Um no.... That's not me at all.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST

    Seph

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    Cool. I haven't gone completely mad then.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST

    Sam J... Enjoy!!

    by Seph_J

    Everyone else.... ENJOY!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:33 p.m. CST

    Maybe "David Tennant's New Teeth"?

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    If I did the formerly known thing I'd maybe need some kind of unpronounceable symbol to accompany the name shift.

  • June 4, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST

    seph- I am now fucking buzzing!! It's time! Enjoy, my friend!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 12:38 p.m. CST

    See you on the other side...

    by notspock2

  • June 4, 2011, 12:39 p.m. CST

    NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Good luck gentlemen....

    by V'Shael

  • June 4, 2011, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Lucky buggers!

    by Ian

    Blast my North American location. Enjoy the show all!

  • June 4, 2011, 12:41 p.m. CST

    Enjoy my friends across the pond

    by Bill Hoops

  • June 4, 2011, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Just started... *semi-spoiler*

    by s0l

  • June 4, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Good start

    by donkey_lasher

    Do I have to repeat the question?

  • June 4, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Just started... *semi-spoiler*

    by s0l

    Rory ROCKS!!!! that is all ^_^ opening is great! (sorry for the double post to excited!!)

  • June 4, 2011, 12:46 p.m. CST

    The adventure has begun for those lucky buggers!

    by Bill Hoops

  • June 4, 2011, 1:10 p.m. CST

    Weekly DW Talkback Title??

    by Merrick

    Seeking opinions re: what we should call our weekly DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks/Reader Reactions. A few regulars didn't seem to love my adopting the term "Docback" in one of my recent posts...although that seemed and seems a logical name...so what term should we use to identify the weekly post in headlines? Open to anything...

  • June 4, 2011, 1:16 p.m. CST

    Victory of the Dialect?

    by boogalooshrimp

  • June 4, 2011, 1:24 p.m. CST

    DocBack works

    by HornOrSilk

  • June 4, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Knew it

    by donkey_lasher

    Well, that wasn't the big WTF moment, but it was what I theorised.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    *head explodes*

    by s0l

    The US are in for a treat!! %)

  • June 4, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Talkback And Relative Dimensions In (cyber)space.

    by Ian

  • June 4, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    QUEUE TB EXPLOSION

    by Seph_J

    I'm not sure what to say really. Going to need to think about this for a while...

  • June 4, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Spoiler

    by notspock2

    LET'S KILL HITLER! - LOVE IT.

  • As I said, that would be the title.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Or perhaps

    by Ian

    Talkback And Relative Discussions In (cyber)space.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:32 p.m. CST

    no wtf

    by Russell Skaife

    I think we all guessed at that!!!!!!! but it was very good non the less, if a little rushed.

  • Well... that was, not unexpected. But it does make many things make sense. Not much to say about that really that hasn't already been said in theorising... SO... WHAT ABOUT THE UNDERWATER SKELETON HAND WITH THE SONIC IN???

  • June 4, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    DocBack seems like the only choice.

    by Bill Hoops

  • June 4, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    haha 2011

    by 1st and only

    for some reason i momentarilly thought it was 2010 so when the 'to be continued 2011' came up at the credits i was like' shit! i have to wait till next fucking year?!' luckilly, my stupidity ended swiftly. Thank Gawd the future is now the present...

  • June 4, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    Well...

    by Volllllume3

    that was pretty fucking awesome. My hat of to thee Moffat.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    I CAN'T BELIEVE SKELETOR WILL SOON BE IN DOCTOR WHO!

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    That was the meaning behind the trailer at the end, right?

  • June 4, 2011, 1:36 p.m. CST

    Oh fucking mother fucker. That was simply perfect.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 4, 2011, 1:37 p.m. CST

    I'm going to need to rethink my "Favorite Eleven Doctor Episodes" list

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I have a feeling that "The Impossible Astronaut" may pip this one, though. But that's only because I'd seen enough speculation about the River reveal not to be shocked.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:38 p.m. CST

    Moffatt must have been

    by donkey_lasher

    grinning from ear to ear when he thought this one up, likely last season. I bet he couldn't wait for this.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:38 p.m. CST

    Not that special

    by catlettuce4

    Sorry but typically all foreplay from Moffatt

  • June 4, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Well I Enjoyed That.

    by proper

    I know some of you probably guessed your way through it all,good for you,but for me it was still a good time.I'm happy for the break myself,we can all enjoy the summer and when Doctor Who returns the football season will be off and running too............Well done to all .............except couldn't we of had original Cybermen coz you know arent't they from Mondas and the new school ones were made in an alternative universe by Trigger.Apart from that........... :>.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Fantastic but underwhelming ...

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    and rushed ...

  • Feeling awesome. Matt Smith was absolutely the very best he has ever been. Arthur DaRVILL was something his character has only hinted at and is all the better for it. Karen Gillan was actually quite remarkable here. And now we know for sure. I need to go and watch this again guys- I am actualy quite emotional .

  • June 4, 2011, 1:41 p.m. CST

    Larsson

    by Darth_Scotsman

    Naughty naughty!

  • June 4, 2011, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Seph-J, what underwater hand?

    by Gorehog

    I missed that.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Look what you've done to Sam Jackson's Wig, Moffat!

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    He was a tough guy and you've reduced him to an emotional wreck! I hope you're happy with yourself. That guy has kids, you know.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Wow.

    by Gabba-UK

    Who River really is wasn't too much of a stretch however how it was done was kinda cool for us to find out. Still not sure if the Doctor and her are an item at some point, the Doctor tapping the daughter of two of his best friends isn't his style. The revalation of her being part time lord is going to take me a while to figure out. I'll have to watch it again ASAP when I get home from work. Watching it there and customers had the temerity of wanting to be served whe I'm watching Who. I mean the nerve of these people!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    what ginge said. All of it.

    by TinSpider

    I was expecting some mega huge bombshell at the end due to all the hype but it actually didn't surprise me in the slightest.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Must be popular....

    by donkey_lasher

    BBC iplayer and the website have gone into meltdown.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Hmmm

    by 2LeggedFreak

    You know my initial reaction was that there was a lot to like about this episode. Loved the Victiorian Silurian and her ass-kicking assistant--- The Green Lizard ?? Dorium as well was good value as well as the Sontaran nurse. Liked the bit with Rory and the Cybermen---thats the way to ask for info. And I loved the premise that the Doctors reputation is whats causing this. Its a bit like he's the top gun-slinger in town so every idiot is out to be better than him. River reveal was no great shock...as soon as we knew the baby's name it was a cert --but it was still well done. Matt Smith was fantastic--particularly when he was angry but also in his delight at the end when he realised who River was. Problems--well did much really happen ? Was the spectacular fall the Doctor realising it was all his fault. Just a feeling that we were oversold this episode and at the end it feels a bit like TIA--incomplete. Still loved it though.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    American reaction?

    by 1st and only

    I was just wondering...how well is Dr Who doing over there since Moffat took over? Does it get credible ratings? Does it match 'american' sci-fi ratings? Until Moffat took over I could never really stand Dr Who (except the Davidson era)

  • June 4, 2011, 1:53 p.m. CST

    Loved the lesbian joke

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    The bit where the Victorian woman said something like "I don't know what I see in you," followed by the Silurian using her long tongue and then the two staring at one another made me chuckle.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    That was like watching a Virgin New Adventure

    by buggerbugger

    ...but twenty years after they were doing this sort of thing on a regular basis. So River Song is basically a version of Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart who the Doctor doesn't mind fucking despite knowing her as a newborn infant? Yeah... I think Moffat needs to put down the 'Twilight' books and nick his ideas from somewhere with a bit more class, because I just watched a weird hybrid of 'Transit' and 'Breaking Dawn', with the Doctor in the role of the creepy werewolf-pig kid.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:56 p.m. CST

    Spoilers.

    by notspock2

    I want to watch something called "let's kill Hitler" right now.. I don't care if it's an empty bag of crisps blowing around in the breeze... Best name for something- ever. Was the other option to call it "inglorious timelords?"

  • June 4, 2011, 1:58 p.m. CST

    I'm hiding.

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    Until some good citizen uploads this thing.

  • June 4, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    So the question must be...

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    ..why didn't River seem to know about her younger self making the phone calls in 1960's America?

  • June 4, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    DocBack...

    by johndillingers20inchseveredcock

    Reverse the polarity of the TalkBack flow? The High Council of the Whovians (or TalkBackers?)? I suck at naming things.

  • June 4, 2011, 2 p.m. CST

    Great episode but...

    by s0l

    Is it me or do the writers have not got the pacing of some of the episodes quite right? They have seemed either not enough story to fill the time or to rushed to fit everything in. Think loosing the 10-12 mins per episode, to fit the US market, have thrown them for a loop pacing wise! But loved this episode... Pitty Bucket.. err... kicked the bucket she would have been a great companion for a few episodes...

  • June 4, 2011, 2 p.m. CST

    was there even an opening credits

    by Seph_J

    sequence? I don't remember one!

  • June 4, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS

    by CptBlood

    SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Can someone explain the cot... I mean if the name was written on it in Gallefreyan and er... can someone explain all that please.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    @christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by s0l

    But *IS* that girl making the calls the young Melody/River?

  • June 4, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    Yes, there was an opening credits

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    As I quickly fired off an email to a friend in the US which simply said "The Doctor is a BADASS!" during it.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    My review of tonight's episode.

    by Darth_Tarantino

    Take a peek at it here if you have the time: http://reviewthewho.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/6-7-a-good-man-goes-to-war/ In short, the first 10/10 I've awarded to Matt Smith's era.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    s0l

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    But isn't that why the Doctor flashed back to those scenes, and then said something along the lines of "Yes, they've already done that. It's too late" when told that the bad guys would try to raise Melody/River.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Possibly would have been better unspoiled...

    by V'Shael

    But for me, it couldn't live up to the hype. Loved the first half of the episode, but it kind of slid slowly downhill after that. I wouldn't rank it as the best Moffat has given us by a long shot. The ending did come across as very rushed and god help us all with a title like Let's Kill Hitler for the next episode. Not a game changing cliff hanger on its own, in my opinion. Can't possibly be considered to be a game changer. No way. The Doctor goes off on his own, raises the young River Song, has a whole bunch of adventures in her life in reverse order or something? All off screen? Things I loved... real cybermen. Getting their asses kicked. The Doctors message. The fact that Jenny wasn't Genny. Captain Run Away. And the Doctors crib. I feel like the episode capped Rory and Amy's story, tied off the River Song one, and I can afford to wait until the Autumn now. But I still think we've seen better. I enjoyed it, but it felt like preparing for a punch from Tyson in his prime, and getting a bitch slap instead. It hit, but not as hard as I was expecting.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    @cptblood

    by s0l

    Best explanation off of the top of my head is: The cot was the Doctors kids (before the time war i think) and he put the Galifrain for "Daughter" on it. (Do we ever know if he had a son or daughter before the time war? can't remember)

  • June 4, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    I was kind of hoping

    by donkey_lasher

    that Bucket would regenerate at the end of the episode.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    Spoilers

    by moody by nature

    I was kinda hoping Bucket would turn out to be a teenage version of Melody/River. The one character appearing in an episode at three different ages. Or imagine if she'd regenerated into Alex Kingston whilst older River was there to watch...

  • June 4, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    @jawshco - Oh, ignore me.. I'm just a crotchety old fart...

    by V'Shael

    I'll swear like a fucking fuck and usually complain like a thrush filled itchy cunt about something or other. In this case, it was an unfortunate K9/Romana thing, which I admit I've run into far too often on youtube, not just from the one cunt either. So yeah, I over-reacted. But think nothing of it, just tell me to fuck off and crawl away and die or something. No need to apologise at all. Some day my happy pills will arrive.......

  • June 4, 2011, 2:13 p.m. CST

    "In short, the first 10/10 I've awarded to Matt Smith's era"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Really? I think over time you will revise that view. It barely makes my top5 of Smith episodes.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Would you like me to repeat the question?

    by Gabba-UK

    Was a cool moment. I'm thinking the cot has greater significance than we're giving it at the moment. The regenerating little girl isn't River/Melody in my opinion however. Too obvious. Don't ask me who she however. I'm on the same ride as you and I don't know where it's going either.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    Is Amy & Rory...

    by s0l

    ...the only companions (in the RTD era) that he's not told about his dead family? I'm sure they have asked him a couple of times if he had a family and he's ignored the question. And now he brings out the Cot. It might have been his as a baby or it was his and kept it for his child. Me thinks it's leading into another story line for next season...

  • Some people are far too quick off the block for my liking.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST

    More thoughts

    by 2LeggedFreak

    The whole River reveal thing was built up so that in my mind this half season break was the Doctor raising higher than ever before then falling further, then River revealing something...then cliff-hanger!!!!. Higher than ever before--well he's pulled exactly this kind of stunt before so I am not sure capturing an asteroid is such a big deal. Falling further , well if he did it lasted about 12 seconds until Rivers reveal turned it into a happyish ending. Even within the episode though when Mrs Eyepatch talked about her trap--er was this the headless monks who then got bitch slapped by the Doctors little team--was that the big trap ?? I think the love of the characters and the performances of all the main players today saved this episode. By performances I mean The Doctor ( fantastic), Rory, Amy, Dorium, The Green Lizard and Kato ( Jenny), Sontaran. River , not so much. I'm sorry but her character carried the burden of spouting a load of portentious nonsense that in the end didn't mean terribly much. Oh and on the topic of repeating certain tropes I do think this, build the whole army up and then have the Doctor just take them apart was very reminiscent of Moffatts Jekyll sequence.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Disappointed

    by photoboy

    I've been pretty disappointed with this season. Last season felt like the series was finally back to what I loved about the classic series (the Doctor and companion land somewhere new and have adventures) and I loved every second of it except the James Cordon episode. But this season, every place they go to has been stupidly dark (has the universe run out of light bulbs?) and every week it tries far too hard to tug at the heart strings. I just don't care enough about characters we've only just met to be that sad when they make their inevitable heroic sacrifice at the end of the story. Also, I find Rory just gets in the way. I never get the feeling he's on the TARDIS to see the universe, he's just Amy's loyal lapdog that goes where she does. He's just a bit dull and boring. Pacing and episode length has been a real problem this series too. Every episode feels like they've crammed 60 minutes of dialogue into 45 minutes, so we end up with the exposition being delivered at break-neck speed, which makes it hard to hear and follow what's going on. My final problem with this series has been the over-abundance of River Song. I never liked the character, I think she's far too smug and the idea that she's Amy's daughter was far too predictable to be surprising or shocking. Worse still, there's no nuance in her earlier performances to suggest any kind of reaction at meeting her parents before she was born, which seems a bit odd I think... This latest episode felt very budget constrained, what with every monster just being re-used from previous stories. No wonder they didn't spend money re-doing the Cybermen suits. Maybe this will be answered in the future, but I don't really understand why the Doctor would have a very old cradle with River's name on it, nor why her name is the forest version. Why isn't she just Melody Pond? It's been ages since I saw Silence in the Library because I hated River in that too. But I do remember she died, so I have to wonder why she didn't regenerate when she died there... Plus it's obvious the line about River killing a good man were about killing the Doctor. I hope it's not that simple but we'll see...

  • June 4, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST

    Simply fantastic. I loved every single second of it.

    by sam jacksons wig

    Pissed myself laughing at the Sontaran interaction with the humans. Cheered when Captain Avery and his son showed up. Loathed Madame Korvarian so much that visions of Delores Umbridge hoved into view. Grinned like a cheshire cat when the Doctor first showed up and "kept his head" whilst all around were losing theirs. Held my breath as Captain Runaway was introduced to an impotent army. Felt every pang of woe (as a Father) when the child double-bluff hit like a fucking sledge hammer. Quaked as Matt Smith showed us why he has become "The Doctor"- the sadness, the madness and the euphoria played to absolute perfection it leaves a lump in my throat thinking of it. Punched the air in triumph as Rory finally grew a set in the opening moments with the Cybermen. In short, if I could have wished for close to a perfect episode then Moff has delivered. Yes, my fellow DocBackers I was physically reduced to tears. My heart pounded like a freight train from the minute it began. THIS............ IS...................... WHO!!!!!!! Be fucking amazed!!!! Go on!!! Indulge yourselves!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 2:36 p.m. CST

    s0l -

    by sam jacksons wig

    In technicality, no. The Doctor Cannot, and will not ever have Children. Pythia, a great Sorceress - who was defeated by Rassilon, Omega, and The Other before the Time Lords were even created - cast a curse upon the Time Lords, that they would forever be Infertile. But Rassilon created the Loom, which created new Time Lords out of unused genetic material. The Other, however, was not affected by this curse, and went on to have children, and eventually a Grandaughter - Susan. When The Other realised Rassilon was becoming Evil, he sent Susan to escape to Spacedock, and threw himself into the Loom, and his genes were scattered across the Time Lords. A long time later, the Doctor was created, and he contained alot of The Other's Genes. The Hand of Omega allowed him to travel back in time (Recognising him as The Other) and he found Susan, lost, in Spacedock. Again, Susan realised he was very nearly the Other, and took him on as her Granddad. Therefore, The Doctor cannot have children, but did have an "Adopted" grandaughter. There are inconsistencies in the WHO universe though, ones that state the Doctor was married and indeed did have kids. Take each with a pinch of salt.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    Strange thoughts (and spoilers)

    by James St.Range

    I've lurked on this forum for quite a while, so now to post a few brief thoughts... A bit underwhelmed because (a) guessed the Melody/River bit and (b) I was really expecting a much bigger battle and (c) a much bigger rise and (d) a much bigger fall. I mean, on point c, he rebooted the universe - you don't get a bigger rise than that do you and on point d, he had to kill loads of his Time Lord bretheren - that is pretty low isn't it for him? But, dramatic license and all that, fair enough. I love Matt Smith though. Awesome. There is still a hell of a lot to look forward, but my main feeling is that I'm glad we've got it out of the way. I DID really enjoy the episode, just wasn't as big as I wanted it to be. Darkest ending would have been that the doctor turned out to be flesh, and they actually had him held prisoner. That would have been DARK but obviously some logic would have been needed... I still want to see how eye patch lady enabled Amy to have a link to her ganger WHEN SHE WAS IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE!!! That is pretty amazing tech isn't it? Andbreatheout. Just enjoying the ride. Best thing on TV.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    Ok, watching it, slowly

    by HornOrSilk

    I know the River/Amy connection. However, the question is if she is the girl in the spacesuit. I think the one with the "encounter" talking to the Anglicans might have been that girl.. I don't know. Is she also River? Explained? I don't know, still watching. The sound is messed up though.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Photoboy

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    "It's been ages since I saw Silence in the Library because I hated River in that too. But I do remember she died, so I have to wonder why she didn't regenerate when she died there." (From "The Forest Of The Dead") RIVER: "You'll burn up both your hearts, and don't think you'll regenerate!" "there's no nuance in her earlier performances to suggest any kind of reaction at meeting her parents before she was born, which seems a bit odd I think" Remember that we're meeting her backwards. As the show progresses, it's quite possible we'll see River in awe of her parents when she meets them for the first few times (from her perspective). "Why isn't she just Melody Pond?" We know that, at one point, The Doctor gives her a set of rules to prevent "Spoilers!" This could be one of them.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Oh and keep it as DocBack.

    by Gabba-UK

    It's established as such and should remain so. Anyone complaining about it's use are probably annoyed they didn't think of it first.

  • ...and I hope that this week Terri Hatcher gets her clobber off...... ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 2:52 p.m. CST

    This Whoback Does Not Condone The Watching Of "Desperate Housewives"

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Anyone found watching such a show will be subjected to the plungers of Daleks.

  • June 4, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    I'm watching and then pausing

    by HornOrSilk

    To give comments. Or read them.

  • Enquiring minds want to know. (but we can guess)

  • June 4, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Watching and with the people the Doctor has brought together

    by HornOrSilk

    Still think the alliance comes out of this, and I still think the Doctor plans it... and that's why he tells Rory to be dressed as a Roman. To help make sure it happens. I could be wrong.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Glad so many people enjoyed it.

    by offscauta

    I thought it was terrible. No plot to speak of, some terrible acting (particularly the first 10 minutes), and I was actually tempted to stop watching when those spitfires turned up. I'm not over joyed at the idea that the Doctor can call on an army of Silurians if he so desires. The River revelation doesn't answer any particularly important questions about her anyway. All it tells us is who her parents are and that she may be part timelord. The only bit that made me smile was the WTF moment of (spoilers) "The Doctor will be back in 'Let's Kill Hitler'".

  • June 4, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    ER..UNDERWHELMING

    by SISKOKID

    The 'battle' we where expecting was more like a fizzle and I suppose another viewing will help bit I missed why exactly why the sontaran and cybermen helping. What exactly was the point of Rory in the centurion guise? How & why where the spitfires there? A bit more of the Doc working behind the scenes instead of the ramblings of the soldiers wouldn't have been amiss at the start. The pacing too felt off- 'quiet, emotional bits' seemed to be crowbarred in just to break up the action (the action itself was mostly rubbish-that fight with the headless monks was hopeless). Speaking of which-the headless monks who are feared throughout the galaxy-but we've never heard of them before..... Also thought we would have just been given a few more answers in this episode (who did River kill? Is the astronaut girl River?). Didn't like the Doc disappearing off at the end when Rory and Amy where obviously in need of a bit of TLC after what had happened. I love time travel stories but I fear, as Barry Norman said when reviewing BTTF2-that it's all disappearing up it's own arsehole!! Suppose we can expect the story to be continued in smatterings for the next 5 episodes, then a big 'timey-wimey' finale (sigh). Maybe I just prefer Dr Who in the old style with background themes but mostly self-contained stories-fitting in with 'moving on-don't look back' ethos that has been very much put to bed. I'm not a troll, I just want my who stories to be a bit more coherentd-at the moment Mr Moffatt needs to be a little less pleased with himself and give us a better quality WHO. Ah well, maybe on second viewing....

  • June 4, 2011, 3:08 p.m. CST

    daloids

    by Seph_J

    return! 2011!

  • June 4, 2011, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Terrible Hatcher!!! Lol

    by Gabba-UK

    Jobs tells us to trust the iPhones spellcheck and I usually do. But Terri Hatcher being terrible... that's funny. And so not true.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:11 p.m. CST

    Hint for 50th anniversary?

    by LordBond

    Rory says something about 'what if there were two Doctors.' River says "that's a whole different birthday." (sly grin) Is Moffat telling us that a Smith and Tennant (and River) team-up is on the cards? I think he is you know.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST

    The game changing has happened in the episode, but not at the end

    by HornOrSilk

    The creation of a new species of Time Lords. This is also why the Doctor trains River. Or is it the origins of the Time Lords themselves in a massive time loop of sorts? We know more about their origins...

  • And we will both be there to witness it. Good fucking times my friend!!!!

  • And it will tie in nicely with this season methinks.

  • We hae a new breed of timelord, ladies and gents. And what does this mean for their future AND their past?????? And just who would LOVE to come back and wipe it out of existence???? YEESSSS!!!!!!

  • June 4, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Sorry thats not a game changer

    by 2LeggedFreak

    A new breed of Time Lord--yawn. It might be a game changer for real Whophiles but in terms, of the general viewing public, who were promised a game changer doesn't work for m

  • June 4, 2011, 3:32 p.m. CST

    Now that it's done

    by HornOrSilk

    We really didn't get told everything about River Song yet. And it is quite clear we might have a large gap of time for the Doctor and River to be together - and I think that gap will not be shown. There certainly is more going on than meets the eye... but I don't think the cliffhanger has the wow they meant to give it.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:35 p.m. CST

    It could be a massive game changer

    by HornOrSilk

    Depends on what they do with it. It seems that this new race MIGHT indeed be around -- the Doctor doesn't know -- and tampering with time even!

  • June 4, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Actually now I think about it...

    by Gabba-UK

    I think River being Amy and Rory's daughter is all some huge double bluff. How's Rory's dynamic with the Doctor going to carry on as is with Rory know that a 900 year old alien is going to be banging his daughter at some point in the future!! How do most dads cope with the knowledge that someone is fucking their little princess??? Badly is the answer.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:39 p.m. CST

    They took Amy "before" America...so just when?

    by sam jacksons wig

    And if we're going back to America in the final ep, what will that tell us about the flesh?

  • June 4, 2011, 3:40 p.m. CST

    Think about it

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor thought he was the top of the ladder, being the last of the Time Lords. But if there is a new race of Time Lords, with their own policies and laws and rules and regulations, made in part to wipe out the previous Time Lords and all their influence -- the Doctor really could be on the run (which he says he has been in the opening episode)!

  • June 4, 2011, 3:42 p.m. CST

    Sam -- yes before America

    by HornOrSilk

    But after the newlyweds had their first night in the TARDIS. When, beyond that, may or may not be important.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Now that the Doctor knows

    by HornOrSilk

    Their playing in the background might be over, and the rest of the season could, in part, be the struggle between the Doctor and these new Time Lords who want to make Time in their own images. Time is running out as a new Time War begins -- one which might require the Doctor to create the alliance -- so that the Pandorica can be made? I wouldn't be surprised if it is used, somehow, to save him from the Silence (the agents of the new Time Lords, or even, the New Time Lords themselves? Remember, Amy is honored by them for her contribution). So I think "all bets are off," and the Doctor is running -- as he is trying to figure out how to outsmart the new Lords of Time.

  • June 4, 2011, 3:59 p.m. CST

    I could be confused but are you people suggesting...

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    ...that River gives birth to a new group of Time Lords? Madame Kovarian: "Breed faster, damn you! We must have more! MORE! MOAR TIME LORDS!!"

  • June 4, 2011, 4:01 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by HornOrSilk

    No. They have her DNA. They have the DNA the body needed. Remember what River said in the first episode. They have a Time Lord and know what to do with it.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:05 p.m. CST

    The comedy space marines ... Taking time off from Red Dwarf?

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Seriously ... Why make the army waiting for the Doctor seem like utter fools?

  • June 4, 2011, 4:10 p.m. CST

    Plus the other thing you don't see

    by HornOrSilk

    Now we know why River can marry the Doctor... another question to ask do they have children together? I would say -- yes. So, it is possible we will see two groups of Time Lords being created.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:13 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Ah, I see. I prefer my idea though. It would almost make Madame Kovarian the intergalactic version of Phillip Garrido.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Oh, and another question...

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Were these soldiers related to the ones from "Time Of Angels"?

  • June 4, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by HornOrSilk

    Of course. And who knows, there could be something like that intended, too.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:15 p.m. CST

    I also thought of another game changer

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor himself. He's gone from healer to warrior. The Valeyard future keeps getting closer and closer, doesn't it?

  • June 4, 2011, 4:16 p.m. CST

    The soldiers

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm sure they were connected, in some fashion or another. They were "Anglicans" though -- so it might be a rival group of clerics.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:17 p.m. CST

    Rewatching it and just caught this... *spoiler*

    by sitchin

    At the beginning when River Song is breaking back into prison, Rory shows up. She tells him she's been out with The Doctor, and today is her birthday! Damn, Moffet, that was sly! It went right past me the first time. She's Rory and Amy's daughter, who was just born, and today is her birthday. How could I have missed that. Anyway, on second watching the scene plays differently because you know she's looking at her dad. She struggles to call him Rory instead of dad. Awesome, awesome episode.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST

    What we don't know about River Song

    by HornOrSilk

    1) Why she is in prison (who is it she killed and why) 2) What the Doctor and her were doing together 3) Is the prison itself really a distraction -- she keeps getting in and out as she wants -- so it seems that she really is not in prison. Is it more a place to keep her safe instead of a prison?

  • June 4, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST

    I got a really bad vibe from that scene, Sitchin

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    She was almost talking to him as though she'd just seen him die or something. I really hope Rory doesn't meet his maker during their next encounter.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:23 p.m. CST

    Another thing about River Song's final scene

    by HornOrSilk

    Another Doctor/TARDIS has to be there. Or she has her own TARDIS... because... the TARDIS is translating for Amy and Rory.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    I'm dying to see this!!

    by The_Mad_Groper

    Arrrrrgggghhhh!!! I haven't seen the episode yet. That said, If Rory is her dad... there was no flicker of emotion on her face when she saw him the first time during "The Pandorica Opens". She just called him the roman centurion. Now, I know she can lie and act pretty well but to show absolutely nothing? Pfft! What do I care, I just can't wait to see this! I curse iTunes and BBCA for not showing this now! and Bah to youtube as well! ~shakes fist all menacing like!~

  • June 4, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    This episode has killed all of my interest in current Doctor Who

    by offscauta

    It makes me sad to say it. But it was terrible. Really, really bad. I honestly wish that I could see what people who loved it were seeing, but I don't. We spent ten minutes with some poorly acted comedy characters that even Moffat couldn't be bothered to name, got the rousing speech scene from Jekyll again, only less effectively, had the Doctor take control of the asteroid through the incredibly clever idea of bringing a bigger army with him, some truly awful action scenes and pointless recurrences of characters from previous episodes (and the return of the spitfires almost had me turning it off). And I worry that the remaining half of the season will be taken up with River and her relationship to Amy and Rory, when we could be having adventures in time and space. The only bit that made me smile was "The Doctor will be back in 'Let's Kill Hitler'", and when the best part of an episode is the reveal of the title for the next one there is probably something wrong.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:29 p.m. CST

    groper

    by Seph_J

    that wasn't the first time she saw him.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:29 p.m. CST

    Full of little gems

    by Beastlaz

    Madam Vastra: Thankyou Parker, I won't be needing you again tonight. Parker : Yus M'lady Ha-ha Thunderbirds reference.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    Seph

    by The_Mad_Groper

    Really? When was the first time? I must be skippin a groove here... I can't remember it now.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:36 p.m. CST

    Would you like me to repeat the question?

    by Corwin_X2

    Fucking A! Has even the Doctor himself ever had such a truly badass moment as that? Probably not since he doesn't usually go around blowing space fleets up! Rory started out, like Mickey started out in the first season, as a bit of a spare part. But in this latest season Arthur Darvill's really upped his game in response to what Moffatt's giving him to play with. And it looks like the blue guy's comment in the preview/teaser - "God help us if you've made him angry" - could apply to more than one person!

  • June 4, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST

    groper

    by Seph_J

    The first time River met Rory was on Demon's Run, when Rory rescued Amy and he held his baby for the first time (although officially it was Gangerbaby). It's also the first time River 'met' the Doctor too ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Great episode!

    by Ian

    It delivered what was promised, and is a solid contender for one of the top ten episodes in the Matt Smith run (for me anyways). I wonder if they're going to go into more detail with Susan and the rest of the Doctor's (previous?) family in the episodes to come? That would be a really neat nod all the way back to "An Unearthly Child" (among many other of course) that would tie in to the current series. They seem to be hinting at it every once in a while, so I'm thinking maybe that those little mentions will form the larger arc for series 7. Well, one can hope!

  • June 4, 2011, 4:43 p.m. CST

    2leggedfreak - agreed absolutely

    by supertoyslast

    I loved the beginning of this episode. The grunts-eye view of an army opposing the Doctor. The Doctor not appearing for the first 20 minutes was superbly effective. Christina Chong as Lorna Bucket in that tight army tshirt... (I had hoped she'd become a companion!). But the ending created too many plot holes and questions. It certainly wasn't a game-changer.<P>I'm glad to read from some comments above that I'm not the only one who doesn't find River Song engaging. She's far too smug for my liking and the main aspect of her character was constant references to 'Spoilers!' which I quickly found irritating. She had always indicated that when the Doctor found out who she was it would change everything. The inference being that after/(before?) the battle of Demon's Run the Doctor would find out that she had done something terrible and she would be a bad guy from that point on (or for a while, anyway). But the opposite has happened and nothing seems to have changed (except that she may have been the one to kill the Doctor).<P>There was also nothing here to show that the Doctor has fallen to his lowest point. I was looking forward to an Empire Strikes Back moment with the bad guys in control and the good guys at a low ebb. But we actually get a kinda tacked-on happy ending. I don't see why Demon's Run had to be fought at all when they could have taken the kid at any point. (And how come these enemies have time travel to take Melody back in time? Is it really common in the future and the Time Lords aren't so special after all?)<P>The 'trap' seemed pointless. Mrs Eyepatch knew it couldn't work as she needed the child to destroy the Doctor. The Headless Monks were therefore useless.<P>The fact that River showed no signs of regenerating when she died makes it seem unlikely that Moffat had Time Lord DNA in mind all along.<P>Let's Kill Hitler is a less-than-inspiring title. Makes it sound like a spoof. If it's describing the plot of the episode (and not some clever-clever allusion) then it seems the next episode won't be focused entirely on the consequences of this one. I would prefer a full sequel rather than a 5-minute wrap-up followed by a new story. Wait and see, I guess.<P>All of these season-long (and longer) mysteries makes me realise how much I prefered the standalone episodes. Which is one reason why The Doctor's Wife is my favourite episode of this season (and even that had to shoe-horn in a pointless reference to Amy still thinking about the fact the Doctor's going to die - as if we, the audience are stupid and need reminding). Moffat's timey-wimey stuff is brilliant in self-contained stories. His individual episodes were the best of New Who and his short story Continuity Errors remains my favourite piece of Doctor Who in any medium. But it is just frustrating when it's drawn out over a long period and gets in the way of any self-contained episodes. Maybe it will all be wrapped up so brilliantly at the end of the season that I will change my mind. But I won't hold my breath.<P>Aplogies for going on so long, btw.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:45 p.m. CST

    I did put paragraph breaks in that, honest

    by supertoyslast

    Seems like it <P> didn't <p>work

  • June 4, 2011, 4:48 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by HornOrSilk

    You still don't get the ending to the Library. THE DOCTOR WOULD HAVE DIED AND HAD NO REGENERATIONS if he did what she did.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    "The fact that River showed no signs of regenerating when she died makes it seem unlikely that Moffat had Time Lord DNA in mind all along" * "You'll burn up both your hearts, and don't think you'll regenerate!" - River Song's warning to The Doctor. She subsequently died that way. * River Song can read and write Gallifreyan * River Song can pilot the TARDIS

  • June 4, 2011, 4:54 p.m. CST

    The Sontaran nurse was the funniest thing

    by belasco_house

    even before he mentioned producing milk

  • June 4, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Didn't the Ninth Doctor explain to Rose that the TARDIS gets inside of a person's head and translates for them? I'm pretty sure there weren't any restrictions about the TARDIS having to be near them afterwards. But I could be wrong, I suppose.

  • June 4, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Brilliant but...

    by earlfist

    Moffat must start telling linear stories. I wondered if his stories lacked spectacle, something Davies excelled at. However, the opening scene sorted that, and Matt Smith just gets better and better. Setting the bar higher than ever in terms of characterisation and wit. 9/10

  • June 4, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by HornOrSilk

    It translates for them -- when it is there, when the Doctor is around. Remember the Christmas Invasion. It's power is limited. So it would suggest a TARDIS is around near River...

  • June 4, 2011, 5:01 p.m. CST

    Apologies hornorsilk

    by supertoyslast

    Not so much a question of 'not getting it' as 'misremembering something I saw 3 years ago' as I don't have DVDs to check on. I just remembered she died and didn't regenerate. If there's a line to explain it, that's good. I don't recall the circumstances of her death, but I guess it was offscreen because it would seem odd for regeneration not to even begin.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Ok, sorry for yelling supertoyslast

    by HornOrSilk

  • June 4, 2011, 5:19 p.m. CST

    So was the little girl from the '60s River SOng?

    by mistergreen

    I assume the little girl was a time lord since she regenerated but River is the product of Amy and Rory both of whom are not time lords so how is this possibe? I guess I'll have to watch.. not sure if it's answered in the episode.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:20 p.m. CST

    mistergreen

    by HornOrSilk

    We are to assume the girl is River. We are, however, told about the girl.. yes..

  • I had a feeling that this season is where it would all come together for the Moffat/Smith era, after all, they now know Matt's Doctor and are writing directly for that, and the other characters. Everything is established, they know the rythyms, all they need to do now is put those characters into some great stories, and so far this season they have done exactly that. And the result is the best that NuWho has ever been. This is the season that many hoped for last season when Moffat first took over, full of intelligent, winding, non-dumbed down storylines, enough spectacle and pace for the masses, and with all the humour and wit and character that you could ask for. This, right here, is the NuWho I have wanted since Who came back. And while there have been plenty of great episodes in that time, in terms of consistency in both quality and storytelling, this season is hands down the best the show has been since its resurrection. I'm not belittling anything that has come before, I just think this is NuWho firing on all cylinders, and while nothing is ever perfect, this season so far is everything I could have hoped for and more. I mean when a quite fun, if throwaway, pirate romp is the worst episode of the year, you must be doing pretty damn well. Especially when all the other episodes have been great, and some even better than that. I hope the second part of the season is just as good... That some folks still complain about Smith's Doctor and Moffat's vision for the show at this point frankly boggles my mind, it truly does.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:23 p.m. CST

    WARNING MASSIVE SPOILERS

    by CptBlood

    Ok I have to get this off my chest because it still doesn't make sense. What does it say on the Cot ? If it says "river song" and the Dr knew it was there then why has he never questioned the fact that he had a cot with her name on it in the tardis ? If it says "daughter" why would the Dr assume it was Amys ? unless he doesn't in which case he would assume it's his which makes the revelation scene more than a little creepy. It could say "Amys daughter" that would make a sort of logical sense, given the non linearity of the time lines it could be the cot he builds in the future to keep river song in while he travels back to Amy but that makes absolutely no sense unless the Dr habitually travels with a number of his companions offspring and needs to diferentiate between them. The conclusion the episode seems to suggest is that it says "river song" but honestly, the Dr went and got it from the tardis, seemed to know about it and wouldn't have any problem reading galefrayan and seems to know who was in it so how would that make any sense. My personal conclusion. well, the Dr doesn't actually say or do anything that would lead us to conclude that his revelation of who river song is was the same as Amys. He may well still not know that, but he does know her which suggests its the name of someone he has a past with and would not consider snogging under normal circumstances... so maybe "Rani" ( although that also makes no sense given that Rani is a title.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:26 p.m. CST

    stegman and everyone else

    by Seph_J

    it's funny you say this series is 'non-dumbed down' as over in the 'Doctors Darkest Hour' talkback, spud is, as we speak, claiming it to be exactly that...

  • June 4, 2011, 5:28 p.m. CST

    What is says on the crib...

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor's real name. That's how River knows it.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:30 p.m. CST

    the cot

    by Seph_J

    over on the BBC DW website, there's a directors commentary on the final scene of AGMGTW where the director actually admits that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IT SAYS ON THE COT! ha ha h ah. He said they tried to do some research, but couldn't translate it!! ?????????

  • June 4, 2011, 5:32 p.m. CST

    cptblood

    by Ian

    Time lord crib that changes it's name to who's currently occupying it?

  • June 4, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    Supertoys last - SPOILERS

    by CptBlood

    I will be very dissapointed if the next episode is a stand alone it would, in my opinion, make this episode pretty terrible. In my opinion with no facts backing it up I assume the next episode will be the second part of this one. The title "lets kill hitler" ( which I personally thought was hilarious ) sounds more of an allusion to the old hypothetical question "if you could go back in time would you kill hitler" Given the revelations in this episode I suspect that alludes either to the discovery that baby river song might do something terrible in which case should the Dr kill it or that the Dr may now see himself as a destructive force in the universe as such, should he kill himself.

  • Or who wants to act as if their opinions, and thus themselves by extension, is somehow superior to everyone else. Still, he is of course entitled to his opinion, regardless of how strongly I personally disagree with him. In my opinion Moffat has brought back a complexity to the show, both in sci-fi plotting and characters, that I haven't seen explored in Who since the heyday of the 70's with Pertwee and the early Tom Baker years.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:36 p.m. CST

    The next episode

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think it is stand alone. I do think, however, it has Amy and Rory meet back with the Doctor after the Doctor has done a lot which we do not see. Rumors are the Doctor starts out trapped by the Nazis... and I think River has come to pick up Amy and Rory to take them to help the Doctor, and one of them then thinks they should kill Hitler while they are at it..

  • June 4, 2011, 5:38 p.m. CST

    No problem, hornorsilk

    by supertoyslast

    I tried to choose my words with care by saying 'showed no signs of regenerating' rather than 'did not regenerate' but 'don't think you'll regenerate' would seem to cover that. Maybe Moffat was planning it all along (although I still think that line was there primarily to create jeopardy for the Doctor). If Moffat was planning that far ahead I wonder if The Silence were in the Library...? I am also bothered by the writing on the cot in the same way that cptblood is. It seems clear that the writing said either Melody Pond or River Song so where did the writing come from? For her name to be there, the Doctor must have met her as a child in the past (presumably pre-Tennant) and put her name on it. But Tennant's Doctor had never heard of River and Smith's Doctor showed no indication (that I recall) of knowing that Amy Pond would have a child. Possibly we can get round this by saying that the interior of the Tardis isn't necessarily in a cause-and-effect timeframe so things that haven't happened yet can appear there. But I don't expect there will be an explanation beyond, maybe, 'timey-wimey'. Which was an amusing get-out the first couple of times as it gently mocks the nature of the show. But using it too much will get tiring.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:41 p.m. CST

    No, I don't think it says River Song.

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it says the Doctor's name. And the Doctor finally gets how River knew his name. But also he saw the weaving...

  • June 4, 2011, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Got home, rewatched it...

    by Gabba-UK

    If this episode was shown prior to the recent television Bafta's Matt Smith would not have only been the first Doctor to be nominated for one, he'd have won the bloody thing.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:43 p.m. CST

    Stop reading too much into the crib

    by TheEdIsNotAmused

    Its either the Doctor's real name (Which will never be translated) or something generic gallifreyan (Like a brand name for the cribs manufacturer or something). There's no there there.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:44 p.m. CST

    For Everone asking about the Name on Cot **SPOILERS**

    by Sequitur

    The Doctor DID NOT read the cot when River asked him to read it. After she asked him to read, it cut to Amy. From her point of view the camera looked at the front of the cot. Amy is thinking that is what the Doctor was reading. He was reading what was IN the cot. The Prayer Leaf that had "River" sewn onto it. That's how he figured it out. So when Amy came over she tried to read what she thought the Doctor was reading...but River held up the Leaf. That is what had the name written on it. I hope this clears that question up for everyone.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:44 p.m. CST

    Left untranslated

    by HornOrSilk

    Of course, however, it will be used to explain a plot point.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:46 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by HornOrSilk

    Put the name IS the Doctor's. And this is how River knows it. No, she didn't remember it as a baby. She remembered it from when she read the crib's name as an adult.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Future Doctor companion...

    by Sequitur

    Also, I believe that either next season or the season after that we will have a young River Song as the Doctor's Companion

  • June 4, 2011, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Horn

    by Sequitur

    Right...the name on the crib is the Doctor's but he knew River was Melody by reading the prayer leaf in the crib.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by HornOrSilk

    But he might also finally figured out he never told her his name.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    cptblood

    by supertoyslast

    That was my first thought too. Well, actually my first thought was 'what a stupid title' as I don't recall there being a joke-y Doctor Who title before. No reason that there shouldn't be, but after a 'dramatic' cliffhanger it seemed odd to undercut it with something silly like that. Kinda like Catherine Tate appearing in the Tardis after the Doctor was parted from Rose. So, yes, at first sight it does seem to address the moral question of killing Hitler. But this interference in history has been address before in Father's Day, the Pompeii episode and, before that, Genesis of the Daleks. I've always wondered why no companion, on first learning of time travel, has ever suggested going back to avert the Second World War. I'm sure the episode won't be standalone. I was just hoping for the equivalent of 'part two' of the current story concentrating entirely on the current plot. 'Let's Kill Hitler' suggests there will be other stuff going on.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    - sequitur

    by CptBlood

    Oh thank GOD! yes, that explains it. Phew that was driving me utterly mad. That was a wierd bit of cutting though, why bother ?

  • June 4, 2011, 5:51 p.m. CST

    cptblood

    by Sequitur

    No worries, mate. I had to watch it twice to get it, too. Bad edit on their part.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:51 p.m. CST

    Now that was very, very epic and wonderful.

    by MoffatBabies

    So well crafted, clever, moving. And such a reveal. Expected, but still packed a hell of a wollop. So, how long until we kill Hitler now?

  • June 4, 2011, 5:51 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by TheEdIsNotAmused

    Got it on the nose. There hasn't been a companion yet in the revived series who has lasted beyond two seasons as a regular. It sets that transition up nicely.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:52 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by MoffatBabies

    I could see that happening, and welcome it. Just please please please don't let it be a kid.Young, fine. But not a child.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:53 p.m. CST

    Crib explained! Brilliant!

    by supertoyslast

    I hadn't thought of the Doctor's true name being on the crib. And she was showing him the prayer leaf. All explained. Excellent. I was misdirected by Amy trying to read the crib. Which was kinda off because River knew it wouldn't be translated. A weight off my mind.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    'Cant you read?'

    by supertoyslast

    Ah, what caused my confusion about the crib was 'can't you read?' was followed by a shot of the Gallifrean writing on the crib. Confusing piece of direction, that, as it seems to suggest the writing refers to River.

  • June 4, 2011, 5:58 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Mister Vertue

    For the third and final time, I'm telling everyone here that I am 100% *NOT* Steven Moffat. So please, burn your Shirley Temple outfit (and we'll promise not to ask why owned such an outfit in the first place), inform your mass murderer friends that a performance will not be forthcoming and let's not speak of this nonsense ever again! How about we just discuss how amazing tonight's episode was instead, eh? It seems like we're in agreement with that at least!

  • June 4, 2011, 6:02 p.m. CST

    On that which Didnt get revealed about river *SPOILER*

    by TheEdIsNotAmused

    Ok, so they set up the identity of river as Amy and Rory's daughter, but skipped over the Who did she kill question. She obviously believes she should be punished in some form for her crime. If she can escape from the stormcage so effortlessly, why come back there? Unless she feels like she actually deserves to be incarcerated, and that its OK to escape for the Doctor because he's her only path to redemption. She killed a "good man". Who's the good man that went to war? Sorry Rory, but you're dead man walking.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST

    Great things about the episode which have not been much discussed

    by HornOrSilk

    We have a major advance in our understanding of Sontarans. Even if it was done in jest, they have just become the newest Ice Warriors. They are not always going to have to be "evil." While they love war, and fight for the glory of Sontar, we now know this can have them work with other races (and respect them by fighting them at another time). There seems to be more times the Doctor has worked with the Silurians. And it's not always been a disaster for him. The Doctor is feared as a warrior -- causing people to want to rise up against him -- there has to be more with this than meets the eye. Cybermen are up to something. I am thinking they are watching in wait, hoping to take over as Lords of Time. What else did you see which has not been talked about much? I think I like the Sontaran development the most. This rounds them up quite a bit just like Peladon did for the Ice Warriors.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:10 p.m. CST

    The Siluran Chick

    by TheEdIsNotAmused

    WTF was she doing in 19th Century London anyway? Did the doctor take her there? and, if so, WTF is he doing planting an alien in England shortly after he provoked the Queen into starting Torchwood? That draft thats blowing thru the room is just flowing thru the plot hole. Unless I missed something really obvious here...

  • June 4, 2011, 6:13 p.m. CST

    theedisnotamused

    by HornOrSilk

    I didn't pay too much attention at that point -- but -- I seem to remember the explanation was that she was with a group of Silurians that awoke in the 19th century, and the Doctor worked with them and so it was one time he was successful in finding a solution..

  • June 4, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST

    seph_j - Sorry to say, but yeah... (SPOILERS!!)

    by spud_mcspud_returns

    ...I think this season is dumbing down a fair bit.<P> The thing with Lawrence Miles' website (Man_Of_Vertue called christian_bale out for mentioning it, and with good reason - Lawrence HATES the Moff) is that although he's extremely bitter, for whatever reasons, sometimes he's right. Like here:<P> "'And just when it seems there's a happy ending, a grim portent of the future. Something terrible is coming...! Actually, since this is a programme about a man fighting monsters who blow up planets, we probably don't need to point out that something terrible is coming. Especially when I keep telling people the same thing in interviews. But Mark Braxton only ever gives us a good review when there's clumsy foreshadowing tacked on the end, and the Babylon-5 fans still think it's clever, so here we see someone with psychic powers giving a vague warning to the Doctor. We've done this in every season so far, and it's never failed yet. Except when it's raised the viewers' expectations of the end-of-season finale to the point where the final episode can't possibly live up to the hype. And when it's obviously failed, like it has for the last two years.' "<P> He's not wrong. Once again, vague portents that don't sound remotely like real dialogue (really, can you imagine ANYONE saying "You know so-and-so? This is the day he'll rise higher than he ever has before, and then he'll fall so much further"? No. Me neither) fail to deliver an ending with enough tension to live up to the over-portentousness of the original portent. Once again we're asked to watch an episode where exposition replaces real dialogue, where we can be told the Headless Monks are one of the most fearsome warrior sects in the universe, only to have them defeated by a weedy nurse in a Roman outfit with no combat experience, plus his ragtag allies. Where some nice character moments ("I promised myself I'd be cool") are ignored in favour of questions being answered by more questions - the fatal flaw in LOST, and, it seems, in WHO.<P> Anybody remember "FOREST OF THE DEAD"? River whispers in the Doctor's ear, and the Doctor replies "There''s only one time I would tell anybody that word, there's only one time that I COULD"? Earlier, he mentions that it's his real name. Now we're being led to believe that River gave him a warning about what's hapening in the autumn episodes. Totally non-related. I'd like to think the Moff has a plan - but seriously, was anybody actualy surprised by the revelation of River? Like a lot of people on the net, I was hoping we'd be wrongfooted into something more interesting than THAT. And it's vaguely icky - this means the Doctor has snogged (and possibly married) the daughter of the Companion trying to shag him all through Season 1. EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, much? But more to the point - after all this teasing, the best we get from who River is is THAT revelation? Boooooring...<P> I liked the character moments - Rory comes off very well here, and Karen Gillan's acting is heaps better this episode (she's been sketchy at best so far) but there's that tiresome gay agenda thing again (hey, I should mention how much I like lesbians and sexy Silurians here, play into the hands of the RTD apologists) which just serves to rob an over-plotted episode of two very-much-needed lines that could have given us yet more exposition.<P> And THAT is the final problem - wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey plotting is NOT a good substitute for a decent, propulsive plot, an episode that rattles along with a decent amount of rewatchability. This is the problem with the Moff's stuff since becoming showrunner - the episodes are only interesting once you've seen the entire season - whereas stuff like GIRL IN THE FIREPLACE and BLINK is entirely rewatchable devoid of any context whatsoever. You don't need to fit a plot jigsaw together to enjoy them. Moff's stuff now just isn't satisfying - it's a string of set-pieces written solely to string out yet more questions that get answered with (you've guessed it) - yet more questions.<P> They tried that with LOST, and it failed miserably.<P> Last week's episode was a far stronger and more emotionally resonant cliff-hanger than this week's. It wasn't awful, but it was over-plotted, far too reliant on the obvious River Song reveal (should've not revealed the baby's name til the end, bit of a giveaway) and threw in a cheap dig at religious folk into the bargain (Headless Monks = "having faith" means having to have your brain, along with your head, removed - very liberal stuff from supposedly-liberal Lefty atheist Beeb types). Sorry to say it, but I was on tenterhooks last week, waiting for this week. After tonight, I couldn't be less bothered about the cliff-hanger, such as it is. Though LET'S KILL HITLER did make me smile. Nice title, Moff... :D

  • June 4, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Another question to be answered about River and the Clerics

    by Sequitur

    Did they know who she was when she was working with them in the Time of Angels. And was it the Doctor's actions during this (That he could defeat an entire army of Weeping Angels by hiself) that caused the Clerics to fear him and set out to destroy him...Mmmmmm.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:19 p.m. CST

    'I know where to find your daughter'

    by supertoyslast

    Having rewatched the crib scene to clear up my previous confusion, it seems that the Doctor finding out that River is Melody leads him to figure out where she is. How? He had already worked out that Melody was the astronaut girl. Maybe he had already worked it out and was just uplifted and spurred into action by River. Which suggests that he's going to 60's America where she was last seen instead of retrieving the baby. Which kinda sucks for Rory and Amy as parents - missing out on her formative years. I hope the girl hasn't regenerated into the River we know. The scene I want to see in a future episode is the Doctor meeting a woman who knows him but gives a false name when she realises he doesn't recognise her. She then dies near the end of the episode and regenerates into River. Whose first words will, of course, be 'Hello, Sweetie!' Much as I dislike River as a character, that would be a nice way to link up two characters who are travelling in different directions. It might also put an end to 'spoilers!'. One thing that I dislike about River's arc is that it suggests time is immutable. Even when she knows something terrible is about to happen she doesn't even try to stop it. Which suggests a lack of free will and the Doctor never actually 'saves' anything because what happens happens - no matter what. A minor point which has been dealt with in previous episodes, I know. But, in general, I dislike any form of prophecy or preknowledge as a plot device.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:20 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by HornOrSilk

    We don't know yet what relationship there is between the clerics in Time of the Angels and today's episode. They could be from rival ecclesial communions -- today, we saw Anglicans, but were they Anglicans in Time of the Angels? But the clerics in Time of the Angels knew who River was -- and why she was in jail. Remember, the Doctor was going to be told...

  • June 4, 2011, 6:22 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast -- about River Song

    by HornOrSilk

    Since she is a Time Lord, like the Doctor, her time line is more fixed, just like the rest of the Time Lords. That is one of the reasons why one wants a Time Lord on their side.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:24 p.m. CST

    spoilery commentary - too much sloppy writing

    by timesfool

    Terribly disappointing - I really hoped they would pull something original out of their hat with River, because it's just more sloppy writing going on. There is absolutely NOTHING prior to this episode, this season, that indicates River should have ANYTHING to do with Rory and Amy. NOTHING. It's the classic tacked-on business that is meant to provoke and create some shock, but it feels dull to me. I don't mind if she's part-time lord or a new kind of time lord, that seemed more than hinted at - but at least it WAS hinted at. There was something to piece together. Rory and Amy though? Alien baby, kidnapping, it's all very X-Files-ish and the pay off is weak. It weakens Amy and Rory as they are now just the parents, the baby factory and have outlived their usefulness. It's a waste of character and drama and nothing but one set-up after another. Too many mistakes, too many droppings being left that Moffat and his team don't seem to care about. Rory remembering being an Auton when HE never was an Auton? That's sloppy writing. Amy is the mother of River Song? Really? That's the best they can achieve for Amy after all the build-up of her character last year? What's next? I guess River killed the Doctor in order to go to prison next - well, might as well just carve that in stone. Why not. What new expectations can we have for her character now? If a very young River Song isn't his companion next season, what's the point? Amy and Rory are done with. Thanks for delivering the egg and the sperm. Bye guys. I have to agree with whoever questioned this as a game-changing season. More hype-filled language from Moffat and little pay-off. He's oversold this show just to impress the US and, likely, work up to a feature film. It's the business, but it's a shame so much of it is based on gee-whiz action, shock and awe and not much that actually was ever present to begin with. I really used to love this show, but the sloppiness, the total smugness of Moffat and his hype machine - and his total lack of caring for quality or originality is a complete turn-off. It's a shock. I really thought he might be capable of better.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:31 p.m. CST

    The Moffat era

    by cushing1967

    Much as I do enjoy it - and I do, I thought tonights episode was very, very good. I do worry about his era in the fact that so many questions don't seem to be getting answered - it's getting a bit like Lost in some ways. I mean The Silents? Was the phrase uttered all through the series 'The Silents Will Fall?' or 'The Silence Will Fall'? I'm assuming that it was the silents will fall but who was manipulating things so the TARDIS would explode and what significance did the phrase have? Was it a hint of things to come? River Song - a lot still has to be answered regarding her. The pseudo Tardis in the Lodger and the opening two parter? Who did those belong to? And many more questions. I don't mind mystery and ongoing threads but I'd rather they didn't continue for the entirety of his run and there just seems to be a huge lot to clear up in six episodes. I did love the Sontaran Nurse and wish he'd survived a while as I think he'd have made an absolute perfect companion. And the 13 year old inside me was so disappointed not to see Absalom Daak in the army. Ah well...

  • June 4, 2011, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Absalom Daak

    by HornOrSilk

    Only one man can play him. Bruce Campbell.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:33 p.m. CST

    spud

    by Seph_J

    "(really, can you imagine ANYONE saying "You know so-and-so? This is the day he'll rise higher than he ever has before, and then he'll fall so much further"? No. Me neither)" So, you're saying people don't really speak like they do in films? Ok Moff, get out of here. Spud wants Guy Ritchie for showrunner. The Doctor: "Up them apples and pears is likely a time-machine thing, but fuck knows where it came from Amy!?" Dorium: "Who wants sentient-facking-money?! This is a deal, it's a steal, it's sale of the facking century!!"

  • June 4, 2011, 6:40 p.m. CST

    The Empire Strikes Back.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    River Song is Melody Pond as Darth Vader is Aniken Skywalker. <p> Maybe you weren't around then, but go read the reviews from the time. People hated that choice as some of you hate this one. The only difference here is that enough clues were given that you were able to predicted it, but don't make like either wasn't, in reality, slightly pulled out of nowhere.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:40 p.m. CST

    Time of Angels/A Good Man

    by supertoyslast

    I don't know if the clerics knew that she had Time Lord DNA in Time of Angels - but it'd be a damn good reason for guarding her. Either for her own protection or for the rest of the universe's sake. I seem to recall the cleric who was guarding her being surprised when he was introduced to the Doctor. Maybe because he's the stuff or legend, or maybe because he thought he was dead... I also remember him asking River if the Doctor at that point knew what she did. Which suggests he wouldn't expect the Doctor to be so friendly if he did know. This presumably is because of the 'good man' she killed. At first, like theedisnotamused, I assumed that the 'good man' who went to war was Rory. This episode, after all, featured the second monologue by Amy which seemed to be about the Doctor but - surprise(!) - was actually about Rory. When River seemed so melancholy about seeing Rory as the centurion, I was certain that she knew that Rory was about to be killed by her and from that point on the Doctor would see her as an enemy. But since this did not happen, we're back to either the Doctor or Rory being the 'good man' who she kills. It looks as if her younger self killed the Doctor, but this is not certain. And it would seem harsh to sentence a child to life imprisonment for killing someone, presumably against her will.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:46 p.m. CST

    Horn

    by Sequitur

    I had just assumed the Clerics were of the same order.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:48 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by Seph_J

    wasn't there a big speech about a good man not needing rules.... which is why the doctor has SO MANY of them? Implying that the doctor is FAR from being a good man?

  • June 4, 2011, 6:50 p.m. CST

    "I killed the greatest man I'd ever known..."

    by Sequitur

    Could she be talking about her father????

  • June 4, 2011, 6:51 p.m. CST

    "I really thought he might be capable of better"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    He is ... and I suspect he will be in the near future. The bare-bones story of the last series and a half is a damn good one but its wrapped up in so much convoluted chaos it often gets lost. Right now the entire show is catering to a select few and that concerns me.

  • June 4, 2011, 6:52 p.m. CST

    sequitur

    by Seph_J

    I'd put money on it. KELVINGTON, STOP DROOLING!

  • June 4, 2011, 6:58 p.m. CST

    Guessed the twist in ep 1

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    I knew the little girl was an earlier incarnation of River, i'm still not clear on how she is all timelord, the explanation given was a little stupid. I loved the doctors smirk when river told him who she was, probably a sense of perverse satisfaction knowing he snogged both amy pond and then her daughter too ! lol

  • June 4, 2011, 7 p.m. CST

    Fixed timelines

    by supertoyslast

    I don't argue with the logic of Time Lords having fixed timelines. It's just that if the Doctor and River are travelling in opposite directions, both with fixed timelines, it means neither of them can change anything - for good or bad. Narratively speaking, this kind of fixed prophecy is something I generally dislike for the same reasons put by Lawrence Miles as quoted by spud_mcspud_returns. Foreshadowing by prophecy is too often used as a lazy way to give plot impetus. I know most don't mind it, but it's just my personal taste as, philosophically, I prefer the idea of free will over destiny. I want to believe that heroes in narratives I enjoy can change things for the better and are not on any kind of fixed rails that they cannot change. I also agree with spud about the Doctor's true name and "There''s only one time I would tell anybody that word, there's only one time that I COULD". At the time, I assumed that this time would be the Doctor's final death. It does look as if the young River killed the Doctor. But that line seems a little less relevant if his name is just written on a cot. Which is odd, when a line about not regenerating from the same episode seems to be so important. The main thing I disagree with spud about is the 'gay agenda' bits. The gay soldiers did seem a bit forced, but the lesbian lizard tongue gag was the most hilariously filthy thing I've seen on Doctor Who (closely followed by the Doctor seemingly going down on Martha...)

  • June 4, 2011, 7:04 p.m. CST

    Tennant and Davison in ep 13

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    who thinks this is happening? as imbd states them in the cast list. personally they would probably be saved for the anniversary in 2013 but it isn't beyond the realms of probabilty that somehow the Dr will need his other selves to face the crisis looming in the last ep? before others say imbd can't be trusted ( and yes a lot of the time they cant) they have got the cast lists right for the previous series, billie piper was mentioned before any confirmation she was returning etc

  • June 4, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST

    IMDB also got many things wrong, like who was playing Davros

    by HornOrSilk

  • June 4, 2011, 7:07 p.m. CST

    Oh, very good, seph_j

    by supertoyslast

    I loved that line, but didn't quite get it. I had just assumed that the Doctor was a good man. But, of course, we know that he is capable of terrible retribution. (I just wish we'd see more of that onscreen rather than just referred to). I feel more than a little dumb that I didn't get that line first time round. Now that you've explained it, I see it as a truly great line that opens the Doctor's character a little more. And, as such, surely he is not the good man? It would be highly unusual in New Who to be so dark as to kill off a companion. But they need an excuse for Amy to give up the intoxication of time travel. I had thought it would be her pregnancy, but Rory's death would be far more epic. As long as he stayed dead this time...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:13 p.m. CST

    Guys, I'm not totally convinced Rory will get killed off.

    by Red43jes

    Remember, early on, Amy and Rory actually went to a location that earlier Amy and Rory had gone to, to watch? The Doctor even pointed it out to them...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:14 p.m. CST

    This has been enlightening

    by supertoyslast

    I was going to go on Gallifrey Base to discuss the episode, but this has been fun. I must tear myself away to go to bed soon. I have learnt a lot. But I'm glad that I didn't read previous talkbacks as I hadn't guessed about Melody/River. Although I'm sure I would have if I had noticed any reference to Melody Pond before this episode. I was too caught up in the plot to realise the link during the episode. (That's my excuse anyway). I think this has cured my initial disappointment with the ending after such a thrilling start. Now I'm wondering if and how they will bridge the gap between young astronaut Melody and River getting locked up in the Storm Cage.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:16 p.m. CST

    red43jes

    by supertoyslast

    Damn, I had forgotteen that. Which episode was that in? Maybe she misses him and so has a Flesh version made. ugh....

  • June 4, 2011, 7:17 p.m. CST

    Can't wait to see it? Its streaming RIGHT HERE:

    by Red43jes

    http://www.justin.tv/rejuvenatedbobby#/w/1293735360 Watch it and discuss!

  • June 4, 2011, 7:21 p.m. CST

    Rory

    by supertoyslast

    Wasn't that in The Hungry Earth? Am I misremembering or did Rory appear in one version but then later it was just Amy? I may be making that up. At the time, I assumed it was to do with Rory being erased from time. But it could otherwise have been because he was killed. This would mean time being rewritten, but we now know this is possible.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by HornOrSilk

    It was in The Hungry Earth.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST

    Another possibility

    by HornOrSilk

    It's Churchill she kills. LOL

  • June 4, 2011, 7:23 p.m. CST

    super / red

    by Seph_J

    It was in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood silurian story, but it was altered by the death of Rory in that same story... at the end, only Amy was there, waving at them. Time can be rewritten, etc...

  • June 4, 2011, 7:25 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Ian

    That would certainly be a twist haha.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:29 p.m. CST

    serp_j, if history was rewriten...

    by Red43jes

    ...then does that mean that event with the Silrians not happen (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood)? Sigh, Timey wimey shit. IT gets confusing.

  • I would have liked to be surprised but it was good to see some sort of resolution. So the next companion will be a young River and they'll get serious like with marriage and stuff.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:35 p.m. CST

    Still say Rory's gotta go

    by FeralAngel

    A dull third wheel, is all he is. The heat's with Amy and the doctor. As I will it, so mote it be.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:41 p.m. CST

    Hope River Song gets offed too

    by FeralAngel

    Granted, I'm just getting into this series - and I love Matt Smith and Karen Gillian to death - but seriously, River Song is a poor character to hang a plot on. She's vastly unlikable IMO. Maybe it's the writing, maybe it's the actress; I'm not sure. But Matt and Karen blow every other cast member out of the water, and it's tiresome when the camera is focused elsewhere. JMO.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    Time rewritten

    by glenn_the_frog

    "...then does that mean that event with the Silrians not happen (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood)? Sigh, Timey wimey shit. IT gets confusing." Did you pay no attention during the episode? The soldiers CEASED to exist as they approached the crack. After they did, none of their companions remembered them having been there ever. Because they never were. And when Rory was absorbed... he was never there either. Amy forgot about him. But the Doctor still knew. And there was an engagement ring. Do you people just watch the show while doing the laundry or something? It's like the people watching the last season of LOST complain that they never explained the polar bears, even though that had been covered early in the third season and multiple times since. When a show doesn't give you answers its fair to call them on it, but when they give you the answers in the episode, its you're own problem for not paying attention.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    red

    by Seph_J

    it means that everything happened, but without Rory. He never existed. Amy even forgot who he was. Although... when the universe was rebooted, (and parts of this remain unclear) everything reverted to the way Amy remembered it being - and because Rory was recreated by the Alliance/nestine, she rememered him and therefore everything that happened. So, assume that everything that happened with Rory, happened. God I love this show.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:47 p.m. CST

    glen_the_frog...

    by Red43jes

    I'm sorry I don't have time to sit on the couch and hang onto every single detail that goes down on TV shows. I just don't remember every detail, and I know I'm not the only person.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:49 p.m. CST

    glenn, mate

    by Seph_J

    calm down. It was a fair question about events in Doctor Who from a while back. Nothing wrong with that at all.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:49 p.m. CST

    Thanks seph_j

    by Red43jes

    Like I said in the last post, I just don't remember every detail...thanks for reminding me.

  • June 4, 2011, 7:58 p.m. CST

    red

    by Seph_J

    if there's one thing us regular Docbackers pride themselves ourselves on, it's decency and not hurling unwarranted abuse at each other. Unless, repeated mentions of Stargate makes it warranted :) Speaking of which, no sign of dickholder for ages.....

  • June 4, 2011, 7:58 p.m. CST

    Col Runaway

    by HornOrSilk

    Is there more with him than meets the eye, too? The Doctor seems to know the name.. it's as if he is plotting something with him..

  • June 4, 2011, 7:59 p.m. CST

    Skeleton

    by Matt

    Can't believe nobody is talking about the skeleton with the sonic screwdriver in its hand, was I the only one who saw it??

  • June 4, 2011, 8:04 p.m. CST

    crackity

    by Seph_J

    I mentioned it WAY back, about 3 minutes after it aired... ....nobody else saw it apparantly, as nobody else has mentioned it until now! Thank you ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 8:08 p.m. CST

    I noticed, but I figure its a throwaway teaser...

    by Red43jes

  • June 4, 2011, 8:08 p.m. CST

    actually thats not true

    by Seph_J

    sorry... my man ChristianBale spotted it too.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:08 p.m. CST

    Skeleton

    by Ian

    I completely missed it, where in the episode did it appear?

  • June 4, 2011, 8:10 p.m. CST

    What is the most cliche thing to say you'd do if you could

    by MoffatBabies

    travel back in time? Kill Hitler. I'm thinking the episode will deal with someone who has a new-found ABILITY or access to something.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:13 p.m. CST

    I get, and follow, many of the criticisms.

    by MoffatBabies

    But I'm far too enthused to join in. It was just too epic, too fun, too moving. Oh the possibilities Moffat has opened up for the future.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:14 p.m. CST

    put him in the curry

    by Seph_J

    immediately after the credits had rolled, a teaser trailer panning across the bottom of a lake to a skeleton arm.. and bony fingers...clutching a sonic screwdriver. TIME RUNS OUT. *BAM*

  • June 4, 2011, 8:18 p.m. CST

    Merrick

    by Seph_J

    I vote we call the weekly classic Who TB "THE UNTEMPERED SCHISM!" Ha, I'm kidding. You could, of course, just call it 'The Void: Classic Who'

  • June 4, 2011, 8:21 p.m. CST

    Sonic Skeleton

    by Ian

    Aha! turned it off too soon, just went back and saw it, could be just a nod that we'll be going back to dead doctor by the lake in act 2, or something more sinister do you think?

  • June 4, 2011, 8:23 p.m. CST

    New Talkback Title

    by Martin Hogg

    Does it have to have the words Talk / Doc / Back? If not, then why dont you call the weekly talkback "The Medusa Cascade" or the "Crucible"? Also, mid season finale was FUCKING AWESOME. Of course she's amy and rorys child, of course.....silly me for not thinking of it before.....fare thee well talkbackers. Or Medusa Cascade participants.....

  • June 4, 2011, 8:25 p.m. CST

    seph_j The DocBack Code of Conduct.

    by MoffatBabies

    Indeed. We are so very, very nice to each other. Sometimes even when SGU IS mentioned. I have not seen DocLover for a while either. I mean dickholder... or... whatever his name was. The Code: 1. Never spoil en episode unless the DocBack has a warning already. 2. Always welcome newcomers with open arms and greetings. 3. Disagree. Often. Then forget it and say cheers the next time you run into the one you disagree with. 4. Encourage the watching of older Who. 5. Jellybabies for everyone. 6. Always come back and post, even if the DocBack is off the top talkbacks list. 7. Appreciate Merrick. Often. 8. Do everything you can to spread Doctor Who to those who have not seen it or have wrong impressions about it. 9. Remember that criticism can be a kind of love. 10. Try to keep a constructive, positive attitude. And when this is impossible, do your best to avoid name-calling. Get some rest and when you feel better, perhaps we will meet on the field of battle and we will destroy you for the glory of the Sontaran empire.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:27 p.m. CST

    an elegant solution

    by deathraycharles

    I don't get all of the complaints here, I've been watching Dr. Who since I was a kid on local PBS, and frankly it's never been as consistently good as it is now under The Moff'. The fact that there is even an over-arching structure that has developed over multiple series under the direction of one writer is something to be lauded regardless of the occasional off episode. The fact that the River reveal wasn't an epiphany is contrary to the opinion of some, further proof of a steady hand and good writing; could you see it coming? yes, of course because it was the natural progression for the story and the details as presented. It's been obvious that River and Amy were connected from Amy's introduction and pulling some random B.S. out of left field just to surprise the web forum pundits who had collectively guessed every possible outcome would have been bad writing ala lost introducing key characters like the man in black and Jacob late in the third act. The elegance of Moff's solution is fantastic and opens up great new possibilities for the show and it's mythology without cheating in the typical RTD fashion ala the Master and Gallifrey's half ass return in The End of Time. Of course River will kill Rory, and knowing that it's coming will only make it more poignant, in particular after all of his "near misses". Frankly the show needs his death and it's fallout to remain viable, and I think Moff knows this. Further, do we really need an asexual Peter Pan version of the Doctor, static and unchanging? I myself don't; and River is a great solution to that. We already know he loses her, and they both know they're living on borrowed time; it's touching and tragic, and her ability to regenerate, which I imagine comes with some strings (familiar and otherwise) means that their relationship will having shifting dynamics as well as faces. The potential that they have children, and the ramifications of that or a new breed of Time Lord that have varied mythical or political relations to The Doctor is a natural evolution of the character, and in my opinion, eventually all of this will lead us justifiably to a new "old" Doctor, and a few years down the road, relieve us of the need for a Doctor cut from the vaguely romantic hero cloth. Finally for the small minority that have issues with the age difference or some kind of imagined immorality based on his relationship with River, the first time he met her was as an adult woman, so the notion that he may take care of her for a while at intervals as an infant or child is not really so different from Benjamin Button, it's a metaphor and a tragedy, and the only way to really explore something like this with a character like the doctor without it becoming cheap.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Another "classic who talkback" name suggestion:

    by Ian

    76 Totter's Lane! About as classic as it gets haha.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:30 p.m. CST

    Rivers nonsense at the end

    by Extr3m1st

    When she basically blames the whole mess on the doctor being an enemy to all of those villians. Well he wouldn't be an enemy to them if he didn't have to constantly save the Earth from destruction from those same villians. If he stayed out of it, there would be no Earth as we know it. She made it sound like he just messed around with these bad guys and made them afraid of him for no reason other then his amusement.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:34 p.m. CST

    moffatbabies, you forgot one...

    by Seph_J

    11. Always bring a Toblerone to the party. Toblerones are good ;)

  • June 4, 2011, 8:35 p.m. CST

    I'm the same, red43jes

    by supertoyslast

    I love New Who and have seen every episode. I pay close attention at the time of watching, but don't have the DVDs and don't remember every little detail (or some big details) years later. It's different if it's just the previous week. Also, the skeleton is surely just a tease to remind us that the Doctor will die. It was well-made so I expect to see it again about a month before the restart. Might this mean there's a 200-year-gap in the story at some point while the Doctor goes crusading on his own? Presuming future Doc wasn't lying about his age so as not to worry Amy quite so much about his coming death, of course...

  • June 4, 2011, 8:36 p.m. CST

    The Teaser, for those who missed it/can't find it:

    by MoffatBabies

    http://www.youtube.com/user/CBBCiplayer3

  • June 4, 2011, 8:37 p.m. CST

    seph_j

    by MoffatBabies

    ROFL , yes. A crime to leave that out.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:47 p.m. CST

    oh and the whole episode is there as well

    by MoffatBabies

    in 4 parts.

  • June 4, 2011, 8:49 p.m. CST

    moffatbabies

    by Seph_J

    that Sontaran line when he hears the Doc show up, is fucking classic. I literally Laughed Out Loud at that one.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:02 p.m. CST

    seph_j

    by MoffatBabies

    Me too. Heck, almost all his lines were fall-down funny. "when I shall crush the life from your worthless human form...... try and get some rest..." ROFLMAO!!

  • June 4, 2011, 9:04 p.m. CST

    and the Stevie Wonder line...

    by MoffatBabies

    "but you must never tell him" lol.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:06 p.m. CST

    unless there's 2 of them

    by MoffatBabies

    "that's a whole different birthday" I didn't catch that before. I must have still been laughing at the Stevie Line.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:07 p.m. CST

    yeh... bloooooody brilliant.

    by Seph_J

  • June 4, 2011, 9:07 p.m. CST

    Just the 2 of us then?

    by MoffatBabies

    I'll be back. Later.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:11 p.m. CST

    later mate

    by Seph_J

  • June 4, 2011, 9:26 p.m. CST

    For some reason I really liked the symetry of...

    by -Halfscan-

    Strax's (the warrior turned nurse) deathbed moment with Rory (the nurse turned warrior) and how it all kinda meshed with the Doctor/Warrior theme.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST

    Alright, I'm out guys...

    by Red43jes

    Until the next Docbacks...speaking of which, Merrick, what will be the first classic episodes on your list? Maybe we ALL could watch them before you review (give us some notice as to what they are), and then we can really give ya a docback (yes, I haven't watched a LOT of the classic episodes since the 80's, so I'm prone to forgetting things that have happened in episodes).

  • June 4, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST

    I wouldn't go so far as to say disappointed...

    by Phil Lamarre

    But, I was just hoping a little bit that the River reveal wouldn't be the obvious choice. Now that it's true she's their daughter I'm fine with it and it works, we still have things that need to be answered about her. It was funny how they did trick us again with the Flesh baby

  • June 4, 2011, 9:35 p.m. CST

    Skeleton?

    by XoanonTORN

    I didn't see it! Anyone have a screenshot or something? I completely missed it

  • June 4, 2011, 9:37 p.m. CST

    River's nonsense at the end: Not really if you think about it

    by mistergreen

    Those soldiers are humans, earthlings probably. The Doctor must have done something pretty bad to have humans go after him.

  • June 4, 2011, 9:41 p.m. CST

    Stormcage Containment Facility - what is it really ?

    by JPKk

    River Song keeps leaving, but is always returned. Is it just a prison or something else ? Perhaps containment as in containment suit. Someone jumping around in time, plus an unusual birth and early childhood, may have strange chronal-energy. Is the storm part of the cage or does the cage contain a potential storm ?

  • June 4, 2011, 10:13 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig got it right SPOILERS

    by veteran_of_mu

    This episode blew me away. I already knew who River was. I share the disappointment about rising and falling. 45 minutes is too short for what Moffatt's putting out. BUT, Every actor hit it exactly 100% perfect. Green Lizard and her Kato-ina, the Sontaran, Dorium, Lorna Bucket (if that's not a Big Hint Name nothing is), Rory, Amy, and the Doctor. The direction and editing were tight, the FX beyond anything we've seen on Who before, and the horror of the flesh baby was exactly what it needed to be. Also ... what it says in Gallifreyan on the crib obviously means more than what River let on. And I don't have the foggiest what that is. So many hints dropped all over the place about so many plot arcs it makes you dizzy. And ... this episode had that indefinable quality that only comes when the writing hits its absolute peak. If the rest of this season can keep this up ... we are very lucky Whovians indeed.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:19 p.m. CST

    fuck, that was good.

    by Cap'n Jack

    wow.

  • June 4, 2011, 10:22 p.m. CST

    I'd like one flesh version of Amy, to go please.

    by Cap'n Jack

  • June 4, 2011, 10:58 p.m. CST

    River Song SPOILERS

    by Celicynd

    So, can the truth behind who River killed be as simple as: 1) when asked if she could regenerate, the Doctor wasn't sure. 2) We know the girl is in the life support suit of some sort. 3) the Doctor talks to her, if it is her in the suit, on the beach before she is shot. What if the Doctor knows she is dying and realizes she doesn't have the power to regenerate and makes her kill him to use is own regeneration power so she can regen? Then the "killing a good man" will be with her from being a child.

  • June 4, 2011, 11:15 p.m. CST

    what cliff hanger?

    by john

    so now we know that river song is really melody pond and that words have meaning because of actions but the doctor must save melody...because she becomes river so what cliffhanger and all those people died for nothing

  • June 4, 2011, 11:17 p.m. CST

    to those who hate river song

    by john

    why do you bother...she is wildly popular in britain...which is why they keep bringing her back so give it up already

  • June 4, 2011, 11:31 p.m. CST

    Comments (and spoilers)

    by AdamDiran

    It was the Doctor's crib. The name on the crib was his, before he chose the name "Doctor" at whatever ceremony Timelords take on their names. It was pointed out that Timelords don't forget. Baby River thus remembers seeing the words. She reads Galifreyan. I can guess that River becomes the Doctor's Protoge. As she is a Time lord and can regenerate I imagine they'll be swapping rivers just like they swap doctors. The Bad guys are turning baby river into a weapon to kill the doctor. I would Imagine some kind of programming. This she succeeds at. (episode 1 this season)

  • June 4, 2011, 11:42 p.m. CST

    xoanontorn

    by MoffatBabies

    A few posts back from yours I posted a link to a place you can watch it.

  • June 4, 2011, 11:54 p.m. CST

    The part in Confidential with the Cyberman

    by MoffatBabies

    Loved that part, seems like a great guy who should be used as a performer out of makeup. By the way, does anyone know if there's a place where they list all of the songs they use in Confidential? And they use a LOT of songs.

  • June 5, 2011, 12:33 a.m. CST

    ...plonk...

    by MoffatBabies

    I think my head just broke my pillow. G'nite Docbackers. Love ya all.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:04 a.m. CST

    My issue with all this is. . .

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    . . .how the focus has shifted from creating strong single episodes to creating a larger, complex mythology. I mean, I love having a complex mythology to think about and discuss--it certainly made Fringe better, and it gave Lost lots of longevity. But the danger of creating a complex overarching mythology is that it means you're pigeonholed into fitting everything into that mythology, rather than taking advantage of the creative freedom that single, stand-alone episodes allow. And that's shown through quite a bit in S6, methinks. Think about Living Flesh/Almost People. It was all a set up for a giant plot twist. Then think about Good Man Goes to War--another series of events merely to support a big reveal. I feel like the series is starting to struggle because everything is pointing to this mythology, instead of the mythology elevating the series. I mean, think about the best episodes of S5--Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice, 11th Hour, Vincent and the Doctor. . .all of them were pretty much standalone episodes, where creative freedom allowed interesting ideas and strong character moments to flourish. This was especially true with SM's Girl in the Fireplace and Blink back in the RTD era. Now, I'm just looking at the episode I saw and I'm feeling bummed. Great, all that stuff happened and the Doctor did something sort of amazing. What does that accomplish, and how does that drive the story forward, aside from revealing a secret that's been teased for 2 years? I mean, the episode was okay. I kind of wished it was a 2-parter, because they could have put so much more in there. And I wished River hadn't said the whole "so much lower" line since he neither went high nor low. I'm just. . .feeling very blase and tired about the whole thing. Or maybe the idea of an entire summer without Doctor Who is just making me grumpy. I don't know.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:26 a.m. CST

    Finally! My new favorite new Who episode

    by FrodoFraggins

    This episode had a real Farscape and Blakes 7 vibe going. Blakes 7 for the cheesy villain with the eye patch. Farscape for the FX and the fat male Zhaan. I'm so glad they revealed who River Song is, although they haven't revealed how she learned the doctors name. I assume she learned gallifrean and the doctors name is on the side of the crib. Anyway, strong showing. I'm not a fan of Noffets gimmicky episodes like Blink. My favorite new Who episodes are the big epic ones with different races and returning characters. Spoiler for title of next episode: I'm not sure how the Doctor know that Hitler has the baby, but I guess he picked the cheesiest villain in human history to match that of the eye patch chick. Dr. Who shouldn't be split into two halves but I'll live with it.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:55 a.m. CST

    @lordoflight

    by berserkrl

    "CRINGEWORTHY gay bit." There was a lot of hetero stuff on the show too. Is that also cringeworthy?

  • June 5, 2011, 1:59 a.m. CST

    on the crib

    by berserkrl

    I don't think it's the Doctor's name on the crib. I think the Doctor wrote Melody Pond's name on the crib, in Gallifreyan. And River is getting him to see that it can also read "River Song." The reason I think so is that River tells Amy that she would be able to read it if the TARDIS translated Gallifreyan, but since it doesn't she shows her the prayer leaf instead. The implication is that the crib and the prayer leaf say the same thing.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:31 a.m. CST

    I'm with Spud

    by 2LeggedFreak

    There have been moments when the portentious comments from River have well over sold whats going on. The Lawrence Miles ( spit!!!) claim about this is unfortunately valid. One clunker last night was immediately after the Doctor left , when Amy asked River who she was, we had to get the whole " look at the cot" shit for dramatic effect...Just TELL HER !!! I do think it all does tend to come together as a whole at the end of the season but for me there hasn't been enough standalone goodness this season. Its been side-tracked by a story arc that isn't really delivering with last night being the major disappointment. Whilst I love all the speculation generated by the mysteries, and particularly you Hornorsilk, we have got to face the fact that non of the intricate and fabulous scenarios that people use to fill in the mysterious gaps, ever come to pass. The answer is usually more mundane. Whats happened last night is that the have essentially stolen a good mid part of a season that could potentially have had a couple of standalone stories in, and used it to remind us of the ongoing mystery whilst pretending something big was happening. But the Battle of Demons Run, The Doctor rising higher than ever before (hmm capturing an asteroid or re-booting the entire universe ?), then falling further ( for 10 seconds until River shows him it will all turn out right in the end) was just hyperbole. I'm really waxing hot and cold on this season, I do think that folk are giving credit for ideas that are in their head tather than what Moff is actually delivering. The proof will be in the meal thats eventually delivered not the over-hyped glossy menu that we all seem to be reading. Matt Smith is still ace though.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:11 a.m. CST

    I agree with maelstrom_zero and 2leggedfreak

    by supertoyslast

    I'm fine with an overarching mythology, as long as it's balanced by standalone stories. My favourites have always been the episodes with quiet, thoughtful moments with less hyperbole in terms of plot. So all of Moffat's episodes before he introduced River Song, The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, Gridlock and Human Nature/Family of Blood. My immediate reaction to Moffat as showrunner was hugely positive with the expectation of more of such standalones. I didn't expect him to basically extend one of his timey-wimey plots over an entire season which won't come together until the season is done. I would far prefer a gimmicky episode than a gimmicky season. This is why I share 2leggedfreak's disappointment at the mid-season break effectively doing away with 2 standalone episodes in favour of a mythology-arc 2-parter. If the season really must be one long mythology-arc, surely it would flow better without the break? So much detail will be forgotten by the audience during the break. 2leggedfreak is also correct that much of what is hinted at never comes to pass. We most likely will never find out under what unique circumstances the Doctor would tell someone his true name (showing his cot to someone who can read Gallifrean wouldn't seem to cover it). We certainly won't find out if he and River have children at some point. It will be hinted at, but confirming it would be a narrative dead end. The Doctor marrying River would also be a dead end as she would need to become a permanent companion (which won't happen). All of this is just fodder to fuel fan speculation. I'm still waiting to find out about Captain Jack's missing years, for God's sake!

  • June 5, 2011, 3:17 a.m. CST

    berserkrl

    by supertoyslast

    That's how I interpreted the scene at first as well. It seemed that River was saying that the leaf would say the same thing as the crib, but that Gallifreyan writing wouldn't translate. However, the explanations above make a lot more sense. It was pretty poor direction/editing. But the question remains as to why (script-wise) there was writing on the cot at all. No writing would have avoided confusion. So why did Moffat put it there? Purely so that River would know his true name? That would seem to contradict The Silence In The Library. Maybe it has greater significance. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it

  • June 5, 2011, 3:30 a.m. CST

    Mrs Eyepatch plot holes

    by supertoyslast

    Why did she wait around for a month after the baby was born to spring a trap which wasn't really a trap? Why not just take the baby back in time straight away? If Eyepatch has access to time travel and all that is needed to create a Time Lord is conception while travelling through time, why go to the effort of stealing Melody rather than breeding a new Time Lord during time travel? A possible explanation for both of these could be that Eyepatch had developed time travel, but needed Time Lord DNA for it to work (in much the same way as time vortex energy revived the Dalek). She then took a month to get it working. Except that, in order to kidnap Amy, it would seem that time travel was necessary in the first place. Anyway, these are just ponderings and not serious questions. These are minor plot holes that can be explained away (although I don't expect them to be explained in the show itself). The real question that I do have is this: Do the Doctor and Rory still have implants in their hands to tell them when they've had an encounter with the Silence? Amy clearly doesn't, since it seems her Ganger had the implant and that has now been destroyed. I'm just waiting for our first indication of the Silence returning is a red light in Rory's hand beginning to flash...

  • June 5, 2011, 3:50 a.m. CST

    lordoflight

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Cringeworthy gay bit. I wasn't bothered so much by that as by a slight worry that with that in the show and with the spitfires in space, Moff was basically putting the fingers up to complainers and turning into an arrogrant fucker like RTD was with his "Ming Mong" comments when anybody dared criticise.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:12 a.m. CST

    This season the show has gone from a fun romp

    by ThrowMeTheIdol

    To a series of episodes where you can just watch the first 5 minutes and the last 5 and you haven't missed much. There's so much stalling in every episode now. I prefer Smith and Gillan to Tennant and am a Moffat fan in general but I miss one or two things about the RTD era. The kind of episodes like where they'd go back and meet someone like Agatha Christie or Queen Elizabeth and things got slightly slower and down to earth for a while.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:35 a.m. CST

    River is not with Hitler

    by HornOrSilk

    Don't confuse the name of the next episode as being where she is at. It only means when and where we will next see the show start up.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:38 a.m. CST

    The problem with all episodes being part of an arc

    by supertoyslast

    Moffat has said that he wants more people to watch regularly rather than dipping in and out. So having one big ongoing story makes sense in that regard. The problem with this approach is that if people get tired of the story, they will get tired of the show and stop tuning in altogether. This may partly explain the decline in BSG's ratings as it went on. If a show is episodic, you may not like this weeks episode but you may still tune in next week for something different. Like a sketch show, you come to expect hit-and-miss. With one ongoing arc, it becomes hit *or* miss. I admit that the ongoing format works best for some shows (particularly cable). I just don't think Doctor Who is one of them. Since it returned, the best-loved episodes seem to have been the standalone stories by Moffat. So it's disappointing for me that, since he became showrunner, Moffat himself has only written two standalone episodes - one of them a Christmas special. Ongoing stories also make individual episodes less rewatchable. There are plenty of episodes of Who and Trek that I'm happy to rewatch as classics. But I'm not tempted to go back and rewatch individual episodes of BSG because they wouldn't make much sense out of context. And, although I love it, I wouldn't want to rewatch the entire series - purely because of time.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:38 a.m. CST

    The Doctor's Darkest Hour

    by HornOrSilk

    The darkest hour was being told by someone the Doctor cares for (River Song) that he is becoming like the Daleks. Remember, the fear of the Daleks is what would bring people together. The Doctor knows now, even if he is doing good, he is just like a Dalek -- causing people to come together against the threat they see out of the Doctor. And they do have reasons to be afraid. The Doctor manipulates and often does things which have consequences beyond his expectation. He took down one Prime Minister to allow the Master to come into power (as one example). Waters of Mars, of course, is another which hints at this. But it really is Davros and his words to the Doctor which is coming up to me. River said the same thing as Davros, and this time it hit home. He really is going from healer to warrior. And we all know, there will be a time which this fully manifests itself as The Valeyard.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:43 a.m. CST

    The trap

    by HornOrSilk

    Do we really know what the trap was about? She wanted the Doctor _there_ for a reason. What reason? Maybe she got DNA from him, now, too. So she has DNA from two different Time Lords. And she has control over the flesh. What could she do with all of that, now?

  • June 5, 2011, 5:44 a.m. CST

    Well, the show has done large epics before

    by HornOrSilk

    Dalek Master Plan War Games Trial of a Time Lord. I think too many people treat others as stupid. They are not. Soap operas would never work if the theory people give against arcs is true. However, I think we can have a mix of arcs and non-arcs. And I think we will have it...

  • June 5, 2011, 5:53 a.m. CST

    Hornorsilk

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Its not a matter of treating people as if they were stupid. Its a matter of delivering something of substance. I really didn't see any substance in yesterdays episode and in fact far less than I was expecting. Again all the indicators were that River would do something awful to the Doctor and then we would find out who she is..instead it was a happy ending. I,m having a right old moan here, but still love the show...I just think Moffatt isn't delivering on his promises. The aim is always over deliver to your customers so why set yourself up to under-deliver by using ridiculous portents that actually don't add up to much.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:56 a.m. CST

    2leggedfreak

    by HornOrSilk

    She did do something which hurt the Doctor quite a bit. She told him off and showed him what he was becoming. But... are we to assume this is the whole of what she did? It could be, but I doubt it.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:01 a.m. CST

    Agreed, 2leggedfreak

    by supertoyslast

    As I said above, I don't mind arcs as long as they're balanced by standalones. In the first 5 seasons of New Who, the balance between one-offs, two-parters and 'mythology' episodes felt about right to me. For me, the balance has now tipped too far in the direction of mythology arcs. Mainly because the introduction of the mid-season break has denied us two standalone episodes in favour of a cliffhanger. If the break is a way to move Doctor Who to the autumn then this balance should be restored. (By the way, I credit the audience with a great deal of intelligence. I believe they're capable of following a complex story over a number of episodes. But the most intelligent episodes of all, for me, have been the standalone stories which really delve into moral and emotional issues for the characters rather than needing to serve up big shocks, cliffhangers and foreshadowing. Soaps handle arcs well with popularity because they're on all year round and become a habit. Which is not an option for Doctor Who.)

  • June 5, 2011, 6:04 a.m. CST

    She Kills a good man. . .

    by rajium32

    My guess is that though we see her kill the doctor in "The impossible Planet", she kills the flesh version, and that's really not dramatic enough for the build up. I hope I am wrong. I am more concerned that the more we know about the doctor (which I've been against, since watching the 1970's Tom baker Galiffrey eps), the least interesting he becomes, the more domestic he becomes, which basically means to me that he becomes less of "the Doctor". Not that my opinion is important.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:08 a.m. CST

    I think I should make it clear that I still love the show

    by supertoyslast

    As mythology arcs go, the current one is great. It's just that I love standalones more. After being a little disappointed by seasons 4 & 5 and seeing my passion for the show wane as a result, my faith was restored by The Doctor's Wife. It was my favourite episode since Blink and I would prefer to see more of that kind of thing. I know plenty of people prefer the arcs and I'm not saying that they're wrong to do so. I'm just trying to examine and explain my preference for standalones.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:12 a.m. CST

    The Doctor's Death

    by supertoyslast

    Steven Moffat did say that a character dies in the opening and that they're not cheating. That character is really dead. So, although a Ganger would be obvious, I think it was the Doctor we saw die. How Moffat gets round his death without cheating is the current big puzzler. However, it may be possible if Rory is the 'good man' that River kills, that he is a Ganger.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:16 a.m. CST

    "River would do something awful to the Doctor"

    by supertoyslast

    That's what I expected too. Possibly I'm misremembering again, but River has always seemed to look back/forward in dread to the day when the Doctor would find out who she was and everything would change. I don't see that a whole lot has changed and the happy-ish ending seemed (to me) tacked on as a result.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:21 a.m. CST

    The real Doctor died

    by 2LeggedFreak

    But I think I am well prepared for Time Can Be Rewritten.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:26 a.m. CST

    Time Can Be Rewritten

    by supertoyslast

    That's the only way I see out of it too. Clearly, for the arc to work, we have to once again reach the point where the Doctor is shot. How things are changed or death is avoided from that point, I cannot guess.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:33 a.m. CST

    The Doctor now knows *who* River Song is...

    by penhapus

    ...but not *what* she is; I'm guessing Rory & Amy aren't going to get their daughter back as a baby, and that River's badass chick training carries on, because if she was loved by Rory & Amy in the 21st century it's unlikely she would end up doing the things she has done later... Nice set up for the Cybermen return later, too...

  • June 5, 2011, 7:19 a.m. CST

    If the REAL Doctor is really killed in first episode

    by cushing1967

    And the surviving Doctor is a stabilised Ganger then it's entirely possible that the regeneration limit has been answered. Perhaps DocGanger is Doc 1?

  • June 5, 2011, 7:37 a.m. CST

    Time certainly will be rewritten this season

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember the alternative reality clips we have already seen. The thing is, who is rewriting it and why and how are they doing it? River Song, I believe, is still involved with it, and she is the trap for the Doctor. In ways more than his death. If you have read the Dune series, think about what happened in Heretics of Dune with Duncan Idaho. I think we are going to see THAT happen with the Doctor and River Song.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:42 a.m. CST

    It was a great episode. But it lied.

    by veteran_of_mu

    It's a great episode - except the doctor did not fall. It would have been so simple for them to simply end it when Amy's child dissolved. That would have been the perfect "fall farther" and left us all reeling. Before that they could have had the Doctor find the prayer leaf and translate it without River Song's big speech. That would have given them time to have River off on some kind of shenanigans apparently in the employ of the big bad - whoever that is. My money's still on Omega. And thereby seeming to betray the Doctor ... making us guess about her real intentions. Instead we had the Doctor and River having a flirty secret conversation and lightening the tone all round. Blowing the gaff. The Moff Lies.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:46 a.m. CST

    The Doctor's fall

    by HornOrSilk

    Either what I said above is it; or it is it with -- what we see when the show comes back. I can see the Doctor dying is a part of his biggest fall. Or, he does something crazy in trying to get River Song back!

  • June 5, 2011, 7:50 a.m. CST

    Moffat could have duped us again

    by donkey_lasher

    What if The Doctor is wrong, and that River ISNT the girl in the spacesuit? We know that River and the Doctor get together and must have done the beast with two backs at one point in the future? How about another child? The great thing about Who, is the amount of loose ends that are out there regarding characters and companions. If I was a writer, I would be ITCHING to bring back someone like Susan, Romana, or even The Meddling Monk.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:53 a.m. CST

    Dino-Sherlock and Jenny spinoff please

    by Alientoast

    Solving crimes and devouring criminals, one case at a time!

  • June 5, 2011, 8:06 a.m. CST

    Headless monk selection bit..

    by TinSpider

    Did anybody else think the voice of the monk here sounded a lot like Alex Kingston/River Song?????

  • June 5, 2011, 8:16 a.m. CST

    Time can be re-written??? Oh yes, it certainly can....(spoilerish theories)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Just how fucked up it will get? I reckon that something cataclysmic is on the way. I also think that time "bleeds" and "seeps" into one incoherent mess that sees several periods in Earths history sharing the same time line. Just why is anyones guess, but I'm banking on the laws of time and space being traversed once too often, and the Doc having to kickstart the known universe by influencing the events of the Big Bang. Hmmmmmm..... Oh, and Omega? Nah......

  • ...I really didn't think thy would call it "let's kill Hitler" when I first heard. Oh well...... at leat we know what the fucking ep is about then.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:20 a.m. CST

    Clues

    by 2LeggedFreak

    The "there aren't two of him" comment by Rory is one of those throw away lines that piques my interest. Also intrigued by the Silurian--is she in a timeline where they and humanity live in harmony ?

  • June 5, 2011, 8:21 a.m. CST

    The Battle of Zaruthstra - 4037.a.d

    by Seph_J

    Looked awesome.

  • ...personaly I think the Moff has balls of steel in wanting to actually tell us all a story. Not just aseries of adventures, but an actual mythologhe has been putting together for a very long time. What I believe he is saying is "Hey, Who-vians.... please have a treat on me. Not just a series of random entertaining stories, but something a little deeper and causes you to think whilst enjoying. I'm harking back to the seasons of old, where you had one continuing story for 28 minutes a week over 4 to 10 weeks, but I'll also give you stand alone eps that I will also leave clues as to my current arc." And having the skill to pull it all off whilst delivering quality television week after week after week is nothing short of stunning. And just imagine how these DocBacks would look if all we did week after week was talk about a current episode. To have this chance and to live in this time and to see what we are seeing is a priviledge. Enjoy it while it lasts.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:30 a.m. CST

    sam J, as always

    by Seph_J

    you said it mate.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    I'm not a hater at all

    by ThrowMeTheIdol

    I greatly prefer Matt as the Dr and I have liked Moffat's work since I first saw Coupling 10 years ago. If and when I criticize this season now and then it is truly reluctantly.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:38 a.m. CST

    Cut that out Sam

    by 2LeggedFreak

    I haven't seen any haters on this forum so don't start with trying to disparage anybody that doesn't get excited about the latest episode. Were you a hater when the Doctors wife aired and you couldn't understand everybody's enthusiasm ? No

  • June 5, 2011, 8:38 a.m. CST

    "There aren't two of him"

    by supertoyslast

    That interested me too. Seems like a throwaway line to set up a gag. But it could be something different. How could there be two versions of the same Doctor? I wondered if 'Space' might be a clue, but that was the same Doctor in the same place at slightly different times. If he and River had a child, it could conceivably look just like him. But that wouldn't be the 'real' Doctor dying. Whatever it is, I'm sure there will be clues to look out for and it won't just be pulled out of the bag at the last minute. Another thing in that scene interested me. River seems upset to see Rory dressed as the centurion. He even asks 'what's wrong?' So what was wrong? At first I assumed that she knew Rory would soon by killed by her. But another suggestion I like is her knowledge that up until that point (for her) Rory knew who she was and from that point on would cease to recognise her. I remember that she had a speech at some point about how it would break her heart when she would meet the Doctor and he wouldn't recognise her. Who did she give that speech to? If it was Rory, it would add much poinancy.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:48 a.m. CST

    I've seen people complaining about the Doctor being known

    by HornOrSilk

    However, it is clear, many do know him and it's always been this way. Some times and places he isn't known, some he is. However, this episode with the war against the Doctor relates to the alliance of the Pandorica. Remember the legend of the Pandorica and who is imprisoned in it...

  • June 5, 2011, 8:57 a.m. CST

    a "lot more" standalone episodes?

    by supertoyslast

    There were seven episodes in the first half of the season. 3 stories were stand alone (one being a two-parter). There are six episodes in the second half of the season. The first will, in part, deal with the cliffhangers from this episode - so not standalone. The finale will obviously deal with the mythology arc. That leave four episodes that could be standalone. One will be Mark Gatiss. Another by Toby Whithouse (of Being Human). So I'm very happy with that. But one more standalone story in this half of the season is hardly a "lot". Especially when the overall number of standalone stories in the whole season is down. I agree that mythology episodes give a lot to think about and discuss. But there is more to thought-provoking storytelling than just throwing up a number of questions that may or may not be answered at some point. The best standalone stories can be just as deep and rich (and, for me, more so). Human Nature/Family of Blood gave me a lot more to think about than A Good Man Goes To War.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    2legged- onc again taken completely out of context....

    by sam jacksons wig

    Not haters of the episode my friend, but the haters of a) the split and b) the lack of stand alone episodes. I respect the fact that everyone has their own personal tastes and that post had nothing whatsoever to do with it. As I've said before, people can like what they like and have no wish to get into a fucking V'shael kind of headbanging kind of shit with you, mate.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:17 a.m. CST

    by Merrick

  • ...it was to do with a lack of stand alone episodes and the mid season split. Hopefully that clears things up and we will have no more mis-judged posts. My respect and love always. SJW.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Disagreeing doesn't make someone a hater...

    by Octavian

    ... they just don't kiss Moffat's voluminous rear end to the extent some others here enjoy.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    RE: **BIG SPOILER ep8+beyond**

    by Seph_J

    Holy Roman emperor, Winston Churchill?? Buckingham Senate?? The worlds gone MADDD!

  • This clip has been online for some time and I'm surprised more people haven't seen it/mentioned it. A while back, Meredith Vieira from NBC's TODAY SHOW visited the DOCTOR WHO Set in U.K. At about 4:06 into her piece, there's a quick segment which reveals a rather fascinating glimpse at what's in store for us later in this Series/Season. This is *not* a pointed "___ dies" or "___ event happens" kind of spoiler. This is a "Wow - how the hell does the show get *there*?!" kind of spoiler. It's here - at about 4:06 - http://tinyurl.com/6fjo2jp There are also teenier spoilers peppered throughout this piece, but nothing that wouldn't eventually be evidenced through episode previews I should think. Again, bear in mind that whatever's in this piece had to be cleared with The Powers That Be and the clip is also mirrored on BBC America's website - http://tinyurl.com/5t4np4k If someone else has posted this already and I missed it, I apologize.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:32 a.m. CST

    End of season 6

    by Ian

    So...The doctor sacrifices himself to allow a young River Song in life support regenerate by forcing the energy out of his body and dying before it can return...Song regenerates and is now a half human Time Lord into.....the 8th Doctor! "Half human comment explained."...and we get Paul McGann! haha

  • June 5, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    Morning All

    by shibleybc

    Well loved it! If there is a second tardis though, what if the "Aunt" in the eleventh hour is River, it is the sort of way you could explain Alex Kingston being around, looking after Amy in HER TARDIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the reference to another birthday made me wet myself :) brilliant docback but i am way behind catching up, so if this repeats anything :P

  • June 5, 2011, 9:35 a.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by sam jacksons wig

    TIA/DOTM story arc COTBP/TDW stand alone (insterspersed with litle trinkets) TRF/TAP/AGMGTW- story arc. Why do you think he took Amy to see the flesh? That makes two by my reckoning that had no tie in with the main storyline (yes- the flesh DID.) Second half? It has been stated that both eps 12 and 13 are completely differenrt animals that whilst lead into each other are completely different. 9, 10 and 11 are standalone, and whilst ep 8 carries on from 7, it's not in the way you may think. That makes 4 by my count- 100% more than the first section, so yeah, alot!!!! Take care, mate.

  • And a passionate one I might add? "I disagree with a midseason split and a lack of standalone episodes...." "Why's that, then?" "I refuse to kiss Moffats voluminous arse is why!!!!!!!" WTF????? No, you disagree because you have a very strong belief to the contrary, or just just plain fucking hate the idea. That's human nature; most of us don't disagree because we wish to be contrary bastards. Whichever is fine...but to state it's because you refuse to kiss Moffs arse is ridiculous, I'm afraid to say. I am not talking episode specific, what don't you get about that??? Oh, and if you are inferring that I would kiss Moffs arse....I'm puckering up now and applying lipsalve. The guy is a fucking genius and does things that most of us either dream about or wank off in the bathtub over...... Discussion over and well and truly out. No more please. (jesus christ......)

  • June 5, 2011, 10 a.m. CST

    spud_mcspud_returns

    by Mister Vertue

    To respond to your comments in the other Docback, please go back and re-read what I wrote originally. At no point did I say that *any* of the actors who played The Doctor were anything other than 'absolutely marvellous'. I was merely implying that the BBC were losing interest in the show in the mid-to-late 80's (thanks to those who were running the Corporation at the time - you know who I'm talking about) and that began to reflect in the shows. It was unfortunate that this happened for the actors in the role at the time, and in no way reflects in their acting ability. Any child walking into a playground with a Doctor Who backpack in the late 80's would have been mercilessly teased by his or her classmates. Not so today. My kids can happily parade around the playground with all kids of merchandise and it's just as cool as having a piece of Manchester United merchandise. That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry to see that you missed it completely, unlike seph_j who hit the nail on the head straight away.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Tardis translation etc

    by TheFerretLives

    River said "it takes a while for the tardis translation" or something to that effect, I assumed then that the translation was taking place and ongoing so it didn't matter that the Tardis was gone. Jeez you guys read a lot into such a little, sometimes it is just out of a simple lack of understanding the mechanics of visual storytelling or the realities of plot devices, dramatic devices or the process of editing. Seriously how many extra Tardis' have you proposed? The car the Doc was lying on, Amy's house, a beach hut (although you never know on that one but I'm 80% sure it isn't), what next? The Oval Office? Buckingham Palace/Senate? Kevorian's eyepatch? Amy's snatch (fair enough it probably is bigger on the inside than it seems on the outside)? And while I'm having a whinge how come so many people come on here, obviously don't read the talkback and then go about pronouncing theories and "spoilers" like they've just thought of them when they haven't? I've seen mine repeated countless times. I came up with the river shooting the doc to get his regeneration powers ages ago and in fact on the night after TIA was shown I asked where the regen energy went to so that could've been what whoever was in the suit wanted. Sigh. Rant over. F

  • June 5, 2011, 10:13 a.m. CST

    I think that Fringe

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    ...actually did a much better job at juggling the whole monster-of-the-week format with the overarching mythology format. I do want to be clear--I like the concept of introducing a mythology in Doctor Who, so long as its done well. TIA/DotM did it well. Flesh/Almost People, and to a lesser extent, this episode, was less stellar--again, not because they were making a kickass story for the sake of the story, but because they're focusing less on making a kickass story, and more on trying to fit all these disparate puzzle pieces together. If anyone's watched Fringe (not sure how popular it is in England/Britain), they managed to pull it off beautifully for the first half of the 3rd season. They had stand-alone episodes, but those episodes always referenced they greater mythology the show was building up. For example, the predicting math person episode managed to establish that Olivia was starting to realize she didn't belong in Earth-2, while still delivering a super-strong episode. And the Marionette episode was creepy and moving, yet still managed to give Olivia the chance to make the statement that she was traumatized by having her life invaded and taken over by Fauxlivia. It's not that I want stand-alone episodes. I just feel like SM is sacrificing good storytelling for the sake of more questions and big plot-twists and surprising reveals. Kind of like Lost, and we all know how that ended. *shudders*

  • June 5, 2011, 10:14 a.m. CST

    SJW

    by supertoyslast

    When I say 'story arc' episodes I mean the ones which deal *primarily* with the main story arc - not ones which have a tangential link at the end. So The Rebel Flesh two-parter works as a standalone story with a link to the main arc. Gangers were a relevant plot device in much the same way as the fob watch from Human nature/Family of Blood was a relevant plot device to the main arc in season 3. So, for me, I count The Rebel Flesh two parter as a standalone story. Please don't take one of the few precious standalones away from me! In any case, I couldn't describe 2 more as a 'lot' more, since I tend to work in units and not percentages. Also, I don't hate the split, merely dislike it. I also enjoy the main story arc - but prefer the standalone stories.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:15 a.m. CST

    River Song question

    by dogrobber

    First, really, really enjoying this talkback - though I don't know what it says about me that I agree with both (well, most of) the praises and the criticisms everyone has written about this season and episode. Now, could someone please hold my hand and walk me through/slowly explain something to me: why did the Doctor react to River's 'big reveal' the way he did? I could understand joy, happiness, and relief with the knowledge that, ultimately, she would be (relatively) safe/unharmed/etc., but why the Doctor's euphoric or giddy reaction? Thanks.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    @ SJW

    by Octavian

    If you are going to reply to my post don't mix it in with someone else's opinion and reply to both without making it clear that you are doing so. You might come over as a fool. Your onanistic habits are of no interest to me, or anyone else, I would hope. Picasso was a genius. Einstein was a genius. Beethoven was a genius. Moffat is a writer. Sometimes a rather good one. The fact you admit to having that level of love for his work would indicate to me you have left your critical faculties at the door. For the record I can say or think whatever I damn want, within the rules of the forum. No-one died and left you in charge, sunshine. Now jog on.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Merrick- maybe the reason it hasn't been mentioned previously...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...is due to us not wanting to give away massive spoilers (sanctioned or unsanctioned) after an agreement a few DocBacks ago. Too many things were being leaked (I myself leaked a few of them, to my shame..) and lots got pissed. Spoiler warnings started being ignored and clouded and in the end some didn't give a fuck anymore. Things basiclly got out of hand. Then Moff publicly stated he was pissed at the spoilers getting out. So, apart from a few little tidbits here and there we mainly stick to theoretical spoilers. There are individuals who frequent these TBs that want nothing spoiled for them. there are others that don't mind. In an effort to cater to both we just try and stick to what we THINK we know. Believe me, I (along with others) know far too much than is godfor us and it impacts the dynamics of the show. I would have much rather remained ignorant. Ah well........

  • June 5, 2011, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Winston Churchill's Mammoth

    by supertoyslast

    Churchill's mammoth what? :P I need to have that as a new screenname. In any case, the slightly spoilery video points to major timey-wimey/time being rewritten/alternate universe stuff. Presuming it is related to the Death of the Doctor arc and not something completely different as suggested by SJW. I find it difficult to believe that Moffat wouldn't write the conclusion to the Death of the Doctor arc himself. So it should be dealt with in ep8, ep13 or not in this season at all. (The Christmas Special?) Beyond that would seem too long to wait for a resolution to a teasing bit of foreshadowing in the first episode. Whatever happens in ep13, it looks like the Clerics/Headless Monks/affiliates will be involved due to the mention of the Holy Roman Emperor. Assuming the dialogue was genuine, of course.

  • ...and subject matter. The amount of complaints from WHO fans during the Colin Baker era due to excessive violence (for the time) and fucked up storylines (cannabalism, anyone???) all but killed off the show. By the time poor McCoy hit the screens interest had not just been lost but assassinated. then poor fucking McGann tried his best with a shitty love story and a TV movie made to invade a US market by a desperate BBC and it well and truly backfired. Ergo- the death of TV who for quite some time. (9 years I believe....)

  • June 5, 2011, 10:31 a.m. CST

    2nd half of season looking good....

    by SISKOKID

    ...if it does mean we will get more stand alone episodes. I do fear for the long term future of WHO if we keep the elongated arc theme the Moff is pushing. He was gleeful in confidential when saying how instead of providing clear answers to mysteries, he prefers his answer to lead to another mystery. That is all fine and dandy but, as others above have said, this approach makes watching random episodes difficult and alienates new viewers. Personally whereas I would have tried to recruit new viewers in the Tennant era (family, workmates etc)-I wouldnt even try now unless they where already sci-fi fans. At present, I am looking forward to this season ending if it wraps up the present arc and we got new companions(s) next season. Note to Moff etc-a different flavour of companion (alien, different time era) next?

  • June 5, 2011, 10:32 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by supertoyslast

    I just took his reaction to mean what you suggest. This Doctor does tend to be excitable, so to know not only that he can save Melody, but that he certainly will, appears to leave him breathless. Also, seeing the 'family' of Rory, Amy and River together must have been pleasing for him. Possibly Moffat was suggesting that we, the audience, should have the same reaction to this news as well :-) But, in a Moffat story, we ignore little things at our peril. It could mean something more than I cannot currently fathom.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:33 a.m. CST

    The Docs reaction to River's "big reveal"

    by donkey_lasher

    I think The Doc was having a bit of a geekgasm over River's role in his past and future, coupled with the fact that she is safe.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST

    dogrobber

    by 2LeggedFreak

    I think it was a mixture of joy, trepidation and embarrassment that the Doctor would be getting married to Amy and Rory's daughter.

  • Fighting crime in Victorian england! I liked the episode, but much like most everyone else I saw the twist coming since the impossible astronaut/day of the moon. As soon as bucket gave Amy the prayer leaf I knew how they'd reveal it to. But it didn't detract from my enjoyment. I'm starting to think that the "good man" River killed is Rory.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:44 a.m. CST

    The Doctor is happy because

    by HornOrSilk

    He doesn't feel like a creep with River, knowing River has Time Lord DNA in her.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    What I'd like to see:

    by donkey_lasher

    I'd like to see more answers to what role the Silence has in all of this. We've seen the aftermath of their last encounter with The Doctor and the last encounter itself. What about their first (from their perspective) encounter? More information about this new enemy and why they are using a living weapon to kill the Doc. How they managed to produce technology that can beam a signal into the tardis, and how they managed to make the tardis explode in the last season? That last question poses more. What if River, in later life, unwittingly leaved the Tardis vulnerable? It would take some seriously advanced tech to do so, which leads me to one of my gripes about the new WHO. The Tardis is suppose to be highly advanced, but gets compromised too many times. The Time Lords were supposed to be the top dogs in time travel. So who is now I wonder?

  • June 5, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Sam Jacksons wig, re: spoilers

    by Rebel Scumb

    Count me among those who avoid spoilers and are thankful when others are respectful of that!

  • June 5, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    It takes time for the TARDIS to translate

    by HornOrSilk

    But if the TARDIS isn't there, there is no translation. There has to be a TARDIS there, which is how River Song got there. And it is how translations (which were not happening) suddenly happens. Now, it is clear that the Doctor takes off with a "aha" moment. I think one of those moments is that he knows another self is there... THERE is the TWO DOCTORS birthday reference. He knows he has to go... so his other, older self can emerge.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:46 a.m. CST

    DonkeyLasher

    by Rebel Scumb

    I agree, we need to see more of the Silents.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Underwhelming

    by rosasaks

    Don't get me wrong, there were some nice moments and ideas, but that ending sucked, and the episode was largely propelled by random developments not really prefigured in earlier episodes. It felt like tying together elements we'd not been told that happened in some other early season episode arc. Which would be fine, if not for the sense of discontinuity with the last few weeks. The season opener did this too. The guy could get away with writing like this if it were a standalone film, but cramming it into a fifty minute TV cliffhanger is a bit daft. Which gets me onto the nagging feeling I was actually watching a rejected draft of The Phantom Menace. Not necessarily without virtue, but problematic. And man, that ending sucked. Can you explain it a bit louder, I think there's one kid behind the sofa who didn't quite hear you. Oh, and what would be good is if the Headless Monks are The Silence who have chopped their heads off so they're no longer recognisable to the humans who have been instructed to kill them. And they've given their heads to those Cybermen, with their brains showing... I'm sure we'll get plenty of back story on the mythology arc soon enough, by use of time travel devices, it's just tiresome jumbling everything up for the sake of looking clever when it accomplishes the opposite by forsaking the storytelling and character work that would elevate Moffet's good ideas to the level of writing he's capable of. Otherwise what we'll get is an X Files situation where the arcs start to look like bollocks and the stand alone episodes are the real show, only the second tier writers on Doctor Who aren't very good, are they, so the stand alone episodes are going to continue to be hit and miss. And no, having characters appear again out of nowhere is not the same as crafting a narrative across the whole season, even if they get some good lines.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:57 a.m. CST

    Hornorsilk

    by TheFerretLives

    I thought River had her own way to get about, Time Agent style with a watch/vortex thingie? What I meant about the translation taking time was that the process had started and was being processed by Amy's brain so the Tardis didn't need to be there after it sent the translation to her. F

  • June 5, 2011, 11:04 a.m. CST

    Re: the Skeletal hand

    by Beastlaz

    Is that not the remains of the Doctor after his 'viking funeral'? After all it takes more than half a can of Petrol to totally consume a human/timelord body, it takes 2+ hours in a gas powered crematorium, and even then the bones have to be smashed up.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    Was there a preview for the 2nd half of the season/series?

    by Rebel Scumb

    The torrent I have just says the title for the next episode but there was no preview of things to come. Is there one out there on youtube somewhere or they didn't show anything from the upcoming episodes?

  • June 5, 2011, 11:10 a.m. CST

    What skeletal hand is everyone talking about?

    by Rebel Scumb

    I don't get the reference.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:12 a.m. CST

    @rebel scumb

    by s0l

    Their was only the title of the next episode... And after the credits ended there was the short scene of a skeletal hand with a sonic screwdriver.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Translation/River's mode of transport

    by supertoyslast

    It did seem odd that the translation by the Tardis takes a bit of time - after the Tardis has left. We know from The Christmas Invasion that translation needs a Tardis and a (conscious) Time Lord to work. I thought at the time that there was just a residual effect that took a bit of time. Also, script-wise, the reveal had to take place after the Doctor left. But maybe the Doctor worked out that in his future/her past River gets her own Tardis. After all, he must have trained her to fly one for a reason... Also, I was confused by the line 'River, take them all home'. I wondered how she was meant to do that. In previous stories she has time-hopped a lot, but have we ever actually been told what her mode of transport is? I can't recall.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:14 a.m. CST

    Things were a little hectic at home...

    by moody by nature

    ... so sorry if I missed it, but did anyone notice where the pirate captain and his son disappeared to?

  • June 5, 2011, 11:15 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by Seph_J

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZw-4O-G6-8&feature=channel_video_title

  • June 5, 2011, 11:16 a.m. CST

    thanks s01!

    by Rebel Scumb

    Seems both my questions were actually the same question!

  • June 5, 2011, 11:16 a.m. CST

    thanks seph_j

    by Rebel Scumb

  • June 5, 2011, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Point raised earlier re Rory v The Headless Monks

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Somebody questioned whether it was a bit silly that Rory could take on the Headless Monks. Just been thinking that one through and maybe Rory being back in the Centurion outfit is there to remind everybody that he's got 2,000 years of experience--not something to be taken lightly !! Also having watched confidential ( which was a bit pants) it was interesting to see that big chunks of the fight scenes filmed for the battle of Demons Run appear to have hit the editing room floor-- shame--Vastra and Jenny look as though they boot bottom.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:27 a.m. CST

    It was outstanding.

    by Smashing

    Great fun and loads of potential, possibly spoiler thoughts, Demons Run, maybe using the Tarids corridor set wasn't just a re-do, what if it is a Tarids? Ms Bucket, is she Melody at some future point? maybe after each regeneration she forgets what went before, like a new person instead of a continuation? Steven Moffat is a great writer and knows how to have fun, here's to him having load more in the future.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    dogrobber - what it says about you

    by supertoyslast

    It says nothing but good about you (and everyone expressing their opinions). I feel the same way. The praise and criticism aired here does not seem to be mutually contradictory. This episode was wonderfully written but had (seemingly) gaping plot holes. It was exhilarating but disappointing (in some ways to some people). Before any debate about split-seasons and mythology arcs, I came here to explore why I started off greatly enjoying this episode but was ultimately left disappointed. And also to consider my feelings about the season thus far. In summary, my thoughts are: The Season: - I love this season. It has reignited my love for Doctor Who - mainly due to The Doctor's Wife reviving my faith in the show. As a result, I can sit back and relax as I watch the story unfold without fear of it being completely underwhelming. - Steven Moffat is the best writer that New Who has had. This Episode: - I loved everything about the first 30 minutes. But, at the end, I was left disappointed because: - The Doctor did not Fall. - Finding out who River Song was did not turn her into an adversary for the Doctor, as all previous mentions of this event had seemed to indicate. This turned a potential interestingly dark cliffhanger into a happy ending (of sorts). - The cliffhanger was in no way 'game changing' for the audience to such an extent that a mid-season break was absolutely necessary. (Even though it did change things, in some ways, for the characters).

  • June 5, 2011, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Such a nice spirit and focused enthusiasm here. Congratulations.

    by Subtitles_Off

    Too bad I haven't seen an episode of Dr. Who since Tom Baker eps back in The 70s, because you all are having lots of big fun that I think would be a hoot to participate in.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    subtitles off

    by Seph_J

    mate, you are so right. This is the place to be - I suggest you find yourself a big fat torrent of everything from Chris Ecclestone on, and spend the upcoming VOID months getting up to speed.... then there'll no stopping you come September!

  • June 5, 2011, 11:53 a.m. CST

    Good god

    by TheFerretLives

    I don't believe how many people didn't watch until the end of the credits, have you learnt nothing from Marvel films??? lol. Also whenever there's a break or a two parter they usually put the preview at the end not the usual place. F

  • June 5, 2011, 11:55 a.m. CST

    I'd always envisaged

    by 2LeggedFreak

    That River was a weapon to attack the Doctor and she either killed him or one of his companions and then through some revelation around that moment she realised what "Good Man" he was then had a relationship with his younger selves until her eventual death. But everything she has said in the past seemed to lead to Demons Run being that game changer and it didn't happen. So now the Doctor goes forward into his future knowing exactly who River Song is and why she is , and its very hard to see him getting caught out. .

  • June 5, 2011, 12:12 p.m. CST

    There were two gay bits...

    by Cap'n Jack

    the gay marines, and the silurian flicking her tongue out right after her maid say "why do I stay with you?", and then they made awkward eyes at each other. That silurian munches carpet.

  • June 5, 2011, 12:19 p.m. CST

    I personally reckon..*spoilers* and speculation

    by Warren Howarth

    due to the Omega symbol appearing all over in Demons Run, that Melody/River baby will end up being the potential host for the return of Paul M....sorry Omega, due to her timelord DNA at the culmination of the second run of the season. The 'Soldiers of God' in my opinion could be worshiping Omega as a God rather than the God we're used to hearing about and what we're lead to believe they are actually talking about. merrick, if you haven't seen them, i'm referring to the Banished Timelord who is the nemesis in the stories 'The Three Doctors' and 'Arc of Infinity'. Anyways thats just my speculative ramblings to be proved bobbins when Autumn gets here. Is Torchwood on yet? And are we getting a talkback for that as well?

  • June 5, 2011, 12:28 p.m. CST

    Rumors say dickholder's mom is ugly.

    by Cap'n Jack

  • June 5, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST

    Octavian

    by sam jacksons wig

    An outstanding post directed at yours truly- I do salute you, sir! Loquacious, with superb sentence structure, use of synonyms and a perfect blend of metaphor and humor- - Jog On..... HAHAHAHAHA!!! Do you realise, I had NEVER heard that before???? A true use of facetiousness and bon mot!!!! Oh and those metaphors- comparing the genuis of writing TV science fiction to discovering the theory of relativity, the collective works of Pablo Ruiz Picasso- do you know, his cubism periods and late works are actual favourites of mine???? (oops I digress here..), and the composition of a 9th symphony by a deaf piano virtuoso- wow! That was just SO relevant, I extol and commend you!!! Well judged, relevant and so of the time one would think you were a true "porte-parole de la vie" And having that level of love for someones work and leaving critical faculties at the door? My dear sir, I could understand exactly why you would say such a thing! However, as a lover of someones work I find it to be quite the opposite; I am more critical of those things that give me joy when they fail than thing that do not. And "Sunshine"- why I am flattered that you accord me the honour of bringing light into your life. I must be truly sacrosanct. So, in the spirit of this talkback, I have just affirmed, announced...nay- DECLARED exactly as I will. Oh, and no-one put me in charge as we are all equalitarian...but it was SOOOOOO nice of it to have crossed your mind. Jog On.......oh I do so like that!!!!!!!

  • June 5, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST

    cap'n jack

    by Seph_J

    don't need to trust rumours for that one

  • June 5, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    moody by nature- you didn't find out, mate. They just "disappeared..."

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 5, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST

    Dioxholster

    by Warren Howarth

    There's about as much chance of Auntie Beeb cancelling the series at the moment as there is Auntie Beeb co producing a series called Stargate:Lancashire. DW has been the BBC's biggest cash cow for the past 48 years through merchandising alone, and it has never been as high in popularity as it is now. Sure it may be rested for a year here and there, and yes, at the moment Season 33 hasn't been comissioned (as far as we've been made aware), but i'd be willing to place any wager you can think of on it not being cancelled.

  • June 5, 2011, 12:43 p.m. CST

    re: subtitles_off

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    You should definitely give the 2005 Who run a go. It's a very choppy series, where it can get pretty awful at times. . .but when it decides to be good, it becomes very good indeed. Episodes like Blink, or Girl in the Fireplace, or Water of Mars, or Human Nature/Family of Blood, or Midnight essentially elevated the series into pure, undiluted geek amazingery. I came into Who with no prior experience or knowledge (I'm a Yank), but I made a point of watching all 5.5 seasons of new Who. And honestly, I have to say it's been one of the most entertaining series I have ever laid eyes on. I think it's become one of my favorite shows of all time. It's seriously that enjoyable.

  • June 5, 2011, 12:45 p.m. CST

    "pure, undiluted geek amazingery"

    by Seph_J

    Yes.

  • June 5, 2011, 12:57 p.m. CST

    Diox

    by 2LeggedFreak

    As I've said before , Dr Who can be cancelled...BUT IT REGENERATES !! Unlike some series we could mention--mwah ha ha ha Ha !!! Oy Sam, you're in a spikey mood today--had a few shandies ??

  • I started watching in 2008-2009, starting with series 1 on dvd. Before that Dr. Who had always just been the show from when I was a kid that came on after 'Today's special' (Canadian kids program) every night on TVO with the "scary music" and signified my bed time. The few times I dared to watch a bit of it the nightmarishly bizarre imagry quickly made me regret it. But jump ahead 20+ years and it was the only major scifi show I had never really explored before, so I thought I'd give it a go. I was hooked fast. I even love the episodes most people complain about like Slyveen storyline and whatnot. To me its all part of the same campy menagerie. Within a month it had also infected all of my friends, all of whom are now avid whovians.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    "The Doctor did not Fall"

    by Rebel Scumb

    I disagree. He let his anger and arrogance seriously misjudge the situation and walked right into a giant obvious trap. The same trap he'd already fallen for. He was humilated by Korvarian. He failed Amy and Rory. And he now knows that their baby is going to be turned into some kind of weapon against him. And although we don't know for sure yet who was in that space suit. We do know at one point yonge River was. AND we also know she is in jail for killing someone important. So quite possibly Korvarian's weapon is a success.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    Diox: You aren't happy, so you've resolved that no one else can be?

    by Rebel Scumb

    You do realize that that's almost an exact textbook definition of a mentally and emotionally unstable individual right? When your toys break do you go around smashing everyone else's?

  • June 5, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Rebel

    by Extr3m1st

    How do we know young River was in that space suit? Do we know for sure (through the episodes we seen already and not spoilers)that River was the little girl in that orphanage? </p> Also did anyone see the way Amy reacted to the Doctor when he went to console her over the baby being a flesh and really being gone? As if she blamed him for it. The look on his face was horrifying to me, he was shocked. Another Amy point, I have always been a fan of Gillan since she came on this show but IMO this last episode was her best yet, acting wise. She always looks tasty but I think she did her best acting on the show so far in this cliff hanger episode.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:36 p.m. CST

    extr3m1st

    by Rebel Scumb

    I don't know that she was in the space suit when we saw the suited assailant kill The Doctor. But it is certainly possible. We know that back in the 1960s that young River was in the suit, and it seems to have been designed for her. Its not impossible that she ends up back in it.

  • June 5, 2011, 1:46 p.m. CST

    One line I would like explained:

    by Seph_J

    River: "Doctor - the word for healer and wise man throughout the universe. We kept that word from you, you know?"

  • June 5, 2011, 2 p.m. CST

    What pissed me off, as an American

    by Perigee

    Is that the turning point of the story is The Doctor is essentially being berated for everything that has stoked me up on the new series. I Like "Basically, Run" Doctor. I Like "Do I need to repeat the question" Doctor. I Like "Whole armies just run away, and he'd just swagger off to his TARDIS" Doctor. ... And so did River, for that matter, considering the way she rhapsodized about him in the library. But now, the lesson of the day is healer not warrior, and boo, you've scared all the widdle nasty bad guys, and it's all your fault. ...As a Yankee Doodle Dandy, that hits a little close to home, just speaking politically. Frankly, I know you guys love your first Doctor, but Hartnell and his "Please don't kill me, cavemen - I can make fire!" wasn't my cup of tea. I have no interest in revisiting that early plot style.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    seph_j

    by supertoyslast

    At first I thought she said "kept that word from you" which didn't make sense. Rewatching, I think it was "we got that word from you". Meaning 'doctor' meant healer because of the Doctor, but is now coming to mean warrior because of him.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    seph_j

    by Rebel Scumb

    I think what she said was "We GOT that word from you, you know?" Implying that the term 'doctor' in our culture and others actually is a result of the doctor meddling throughout time and is the reason we call doctors doctors.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Doctor's fall

    by supertoyslast

    It could be argued he fell a little. Bet 'never fallen so low' suggested something truly devastating. This was not delivered and we actually got a happy ending. As someone pointed out early on, wiping out your own species must be a more significant low. So what we actually got was, for me, disappointing.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:06 p.m. CST

    I'd like to revisit some aspects of Hartnell

    by supertoyslast

    Plotting, scheming, selfish, tricking his colleagues and even considering murder just to get his own way. I'd love to actually see some of that darkness rather than have it alluded to.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:11 p.m. CST

    ..Other than that - Bliss and Heaven.

    by Perigee

    Sublime. Wonderful. Incredible. Insert glowing endorsement here. Any and All glowing endorsements. Yaay Rory!!! I toldja that boy had spunk. Rory is cool, indeed. Brilliant Smith. Meh... Pretty good Amy (still cross with her - still just woman-in-peril baggage) and yeah - loved the Silurian, want more of her. The developing theme of healer/warrior is interesting, (even if it bothers me). In the end, the Sontaran decided to die as a nurse- very touching; liked that. But somebody needs to address the necessity of a warrior as a healer/preventative. Stops owies before they happen. Hopefully 2,000 years has given Rory enough experience to understand this, so he doesn't go all Peter Parker over his dual role.

  • I could imagine some little kid holding onto its neck and running out of the living room screaming like a banshee!!!!!! ;)

  • June 5, 2011, 2:17 p.m. CST

    @seph_j

    by berserkrl

    It's not "kept," it's "got." And Moffat first suggested that in the 90s.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:20 p.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by Ian

    I agree about "The fall", even in the new series we've seen the Doctor "fall" lower than that moment, unless the fall is something coming in the second half of the series, which I hope is the case, because otherwise, that was one kinda "meh" point for me. A return to the Hartnell mentality would be kind of neat, but I like that the Doctor has grown since then and is able to do without it.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    skeleton hand

    by berserkrl

    For those who missed it (or whose torrent left it out), here's the bit with the skeleton hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqIwEvf8fXQ

  • June 5, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Wonderful episode, only one thing bothered me

    by DoctorTom

    and that was the death of Dorium. I had actually hoped he'd be around for several more episodes. <br> <br> Of course, he might be. I might have missed it when they showed Demon's Run later, but when they first showed it they were quite careful in not putting a date down, the way they did for every other big scene change in the series. So, they're tyring to keep this a little fuzzy as to where we are relative to River's timeline. Does this actually take place after River picked up the vortex manipulator in The Pandorica Opens? If so, this would (probably) put the River we saw here before The Pandorica Opens (but not necessarily before her appearance at the wedding in The Big Bang - that could be entirely out of continuity, and also helps explain some things like how River could have remembered the Doctor, and why she'd bother to show up at Amy's wedding). <br> <br> We are left with the question of who the Headless Monks are (I'd believe it's tied in with the Cybermen; possibly with the silents, but there's probably technology involved in those boxes which presumably hold the Monk's heads, and the Silents don't develop technology - they steal or borrow it (though I suspect their Jedi mind tricks don't work on Cybermen).

  • Sexy told them "The only water in the forest is the River." <br> <br> He had never met Lorna Bucket before (obvious from his reaction), though she had met him before. She mentions running with him through the forest. (I couldn't quite catch the word before, was it "Gamma" Forest)? <br> <br> Lorna sewed the thing with River's name on it, and it was mentioned that the people in that forest had no word for Pond. <br> <br> The Doctor is obviously going to go look for River in the Forest, since he already knows that he will have gone there because of Bucket's comments.

  • The verbal dressing down that River gave him about becoming a Warrior and that which he hates is definitely showing him falling - at least it was a good prick to the ego. There might be some more falling in the next episode (which I agree, is an allusion to the "kill Hitler" thing, and might be referring to the bad guys trying to use their new Timehead powers....maybe we can differentiate the new race from the Time Lords by just referring to them as Timeheads instead). <br> <br> Also, when the Doctor realized who River was, you could clearly see him falling for River at that point. Nobody besides Sexy's ever made him happy like that. That was one deep, deep fall he made there.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST

    2legged- no mate! Although I bloody wish I had downed a couple of pints!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I love this place and the people who live here; it's absolutely great to share a common love of one particular thing with so diverse a field....newbies, who experts or those just along to enjoy the experience and the discourse. It is a priviledge to share time with you all, and that time should in no way cater to rude individuals. There are some comments that you just CAN'T ignore, you know? Most of the time I (like others) are just happy to be involved. Insinuations of other things make me very cross (why the fuck would I want to be in charge of anything like this? Yes, I post alot, but out of sheer enjoyment and mutual respect), as does attacks instead of asking a valid question to clear something up. Oh well, it all comes out in the wash in the end, doesn't it??? Hope you are extremely well mate!!!!

  • June 5, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST

    River's Rant

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    Yeah, I loved River last season and this season, great lines and swagger. Intrigue. Plus, I like smart-ass women personality types. However, when have we seen the Doctor be a "warrior" on purpose? Or pre-meditated (besides this episode where he's trying to save a stolen baby....) The Doctor usually just wants to take his companions someplace, they get there, some shit goes down and he figures out a way to save people's asses. Maybe Eccelson was a bit angry when we 1st meet him, but it's when he's dealing with the loss of his entire race and it's only (well, season wise. Who knows how many actual years our doctors travel around for within a season that we don't see) But through Tennant's time as The Doctor, he's changed. He's more about helping and solving things without violence, etc. So, people who have gotten their asses handed to them by The Doctor are ganging up? Finding a way to defeat him cause all he did was want to save other people? Fuck River's rant at the end. Other then that, I enjoyed the episode. Especially Rory owning the Cybermen.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Oh hell, stick "Spoilers" on my last posts

    by DoctorTom

    though there's enough in the title to indicate that there's spoilers without actually spoiling things in the subject line

  • June 5, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Diox.....oh dear. Making up stories now are we? Pitiful....

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 5, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    I'm still thinking River Song was the trap

    by HornOrSilk

    And now that he has fallen for her, she can be used to manipulate him (hence in one post discussing Heretics of Dune and Duncan Idaho).

  • June 5, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Hornosilk

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    I thought the same thing when The Doctor's face changed. I didn't even realize when I said it to my girl, but I was like, he just fell in love with her. Huh. Funny.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    River being the trap

    by Ian

    makes a load of sense actually.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:51 p.m. CST

    toughguyrizzo

    by HornOrSilk

    And if so, in the end, the trap goes both ways, just like in Dune. She falls for the Doctor even as he falls for her. That is what her controllers didn't expect....

  • June 5, 2011, 2:54 p.m. CST

    So "The Fall"

    by Ian

    will be the doc falling for River, who was the previously mentioned to trap. So, I wonder what the odds are that River has nothing to do with Amy's kid and this is all a long con to dupe the doc?

  • June 5, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST

    I'm gonna have to re-watch Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone again

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    Want to see more into the relationship between the Cleric Army and River. And see the dude who is on Game of Thrones too! Dune is awesome and so is Toto.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Who the headless monks are

    by Rebel Scumb

    I didn't think they were meant to be anyone other than what we saw. Some crazy space monks who decapitated themselves. I doubt there is any more to it than that. Just another weird dr. who adversary.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    DoctorTom (slight spoiler) Dorium....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..he will be back for episode 13 along with a host of others. I quite liked him, too! Given a little more room to breathe the character is very interesting. Love the "fingers in every pie shady" element.

  • June 5, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    I agree about Dorium

    by Rebel Scumb

    He's a great guest star and wonderfully played "Not me! I'm old! I'm fat! I'm BLUE!" Would of liked for him to stick around. Actually this episode managed to introduce a lot of new allies to the doctor and make me feel like they'd been around forever Dorium, Lorna Bucket, the Sontaran nurse, and the silurian chicky and her maid. It reminded me a bit of the farscape season 2 finale where they round up a bunch of one-off villians from the monster of the week episodes in the first season, and make a dirty dozen type team out of them.

  • June 5, 2011, 3 p.m. CST

    doctortom - And why not be happy?

    by Perigee

    When you think about it, The Doctor has had momentary friends all his life. And now this - a person he knows and carries on a relationship with for all her life. A long-term companion - or, at the very least, a long term friend. There's a stability there he's never had before in our acquaintance with him. He's just found the first real friend we've ever seen him with.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    Is it, however, all there is about the headless monks?

    by HornOrSilk

    It's interesting it was a River Song story which first mentioned them, and it is in a museum which remembers them her message to the Doctor is also found. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. I am seeing, however, SM seems to be borrowing from Herbert this season, if one looks and watches. Even the Church Militant reminds me of Dune, when one thinks of it. And if River and the Doctor become entwined as I suggest, it makes me think the Cybermen might indeed be the big bad... and I can see them making the headless monks...

  • June 5, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by Rebel Scumb

    But hadn't his run in with child Lorna already happened for him? He didn't give his usual "we haven't met yet" speech, seemed like he genuinely remembered her. Although I do agree it would be way better if we either had really seen her as a child in an earlier episode, or will see her again in a future one.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    toughguyrizzo- don't forget that Tennants Doc changed too.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... he became more arrogant as he believed that the laws of space and time bended to his will only (see Waters of Mars and The End of Time...) One of the posters on here (HornOrSilk) has theorised that this may be a slow set up for the Valeyard to finally rear his ugly head in Nu-Who.... and we know that Moff loves long term game plans. Who knows... we'll all find out together.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    The Doctor's Granddaughter.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    I wonder if they'll ever make mention of Susan Foreman? Also, isn't there technically a second earlier version of the Tradis in 1969, or am I just putting more into this then the writers might be willing to?

  • June 5, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by HornOrSilk

    No, I don't think he had met her yet, in his time line; however, she was dying and wanted to be acknowledged by him. So he did so to please her -- then, he asked, who is she.. showing he didn't know her yet..

  • June 5, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry - The Doc is one person with 11 faces...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...although he grows wiser with age, certain personality traits never change. What would be cool would be an amalgamation of each Doctor persona which drives the Doc into becoming the Valeyard. All the negativity and rage of 907 years just bursting into physical existence as one of the nastiest bastards in all of creation. Choice!!!!

  • June 5, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig -- right and with the Valeyard

    by HornOrSilk

    We can understand the full idea of the Doctor being seen as a threat to the universe; we can see Doctor being seen as a bad name; we can see the Doctor seen as a demon who needs to be trapped (the Pandorica); we can see and understand why Doctor is a name of a warrior and not a healer; we can see him causing people and races to join together in the way he said the Daleks would (in Genesis). And River's speech is warning him, telling him not what might be, but what seems to be known in the universe, what will happen. The Doctor, I think, will see it and work to fight himself --even if it means creating a new reality, if need be!

  • June 5, 2011, 3:07 p.m. CST

    hornersilk: You might be right

    by Rebel Scumb

    I guess he could of said "oh how we ran!" to her just guessing that they did some running since thats almost all he ever tells people to do. So is the general consensus that Madame Korarian is somehow connected to the Silents?

  • June 5, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    One thing's surer than sure now:

    by Perigee

    After this revelation, there is No Way that The Doctor (or Moffat, if he has his head on right) is going to leave his only friend, and the daughter of his two companions, locked in the memory core of the library. New motivation for her future return.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    by glenn_the_frog

    "When you think about it, The Doctor has had momentary friends all his life. And now this - a person he knows and carries on a relationship with for all her life. A long-term companion - or, at the very least, a long term friend. There's a stability there he's never had before in our acquaintance with him." And more than that, he knows he didn't *completely* fail and cost lives that day for nothing... that he WILL succeed and that takes off some of the sting. But also, River could be a companion for a very, very long time. She can regenerate, so she's not tied to one actress. She could also be hundreds of years old. From here on out she could be someone he meets once or twice a season. Different actress occasionally, different doctor eventually, but... she could be part of the mythology for a long long time to come. She's no longer someone that he eventually met in her 20's, that he knows will die in her 40's. sure, 20 years is along time companion off and on... but a 300 year companion?

  • June 5, 2011, 3:13 p.m. CST

    Rebel scumb: Madame Korarian

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm not so sure what the connection is, but obviously, there is something - even if it turns out they are in a war against each other, and both are fighting over River Song, that would still be a connection.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:13 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig - That sounds pretty awesome

    by Ian

    I'm planning on watching as much classic Who as possible in the void between now and autumn, as I want to follow these talkbacks with a little more Who knowledge fresh in my head when it all goes down...now to find a store in Canada that sells Jelly Babies hmmmm...how I miss living in England!

  • June 5, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Rebel Scumb

    by DoctorTom

    I agree with Hornorsilk - if you watch the Doctor in that last scene from her, it's obvious that he doesn't know who she is when he thanks her for siding with his friends. He knows he'll run into her again.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Worth mentioning

    by 2LeggedFreak

    A mere moment in a series like this should not sway you but , once again , as with The Doctors Wife, Matt Smiths's performance when he finds out who River is is just spectacular. Its hard not to empathise with him and love him during those characterisations and I can't think of a Doctor to date whose brought out that feeling in me. The lad is brilliant

  • June 5, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    just read on the official beeb page...

    by TinSpider

    This episode (7) was also the 777th episode. That's some going for a sci-fi/fantasy show.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    after all

    by glenn_the_frog

    While we all want to eventually see the beginning, middle and end of River's story... its a little odd if ALL her adventures are with #11... and she doesn't weird out a little more than she did when she meets #10. She can be on a much longer timeline. Sure eventually the Doctor is going to hit the halfway point and they'll switch over some, but that might not be over the course of 20 encounters, but 2000. It might be Doctor 12 that she met first. Or 13 even. (Not counting being born and the obvious childhood meeting being set up.)

  • June 5, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    berserkrl / supertoys / rebel scumb

    by Seph_J

    Yeah.. it's "we GET that word from you", you're right... Nice concept too.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:22 p.m. CST

    So we found out who river song is, but is that really the question.

    by Dr_PepperSpray

    I dunno. I wouldn't get too carried away with speculation over Rivers future. I'm thinking there is some sneaky business still going on.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    also... jenny (maid) seems to be featured a bit...

    by TinSpider

    ...considering she didn't have a massive part in it all. She's pictured with the series regulars on the front page. Mean anything or did the graphic artist who put that little graphic together really fancy her?

  • Everybody's been saying that it's a gangerDoctor, but not getting into specifics. The Doctor seemed to have a lot of knowledge about the Flesh. We don't know when he got that knowledge - perhaps in the time between A Christmas Carol and The Impossible Astronaut. Presumably, he had still been poking around to figure out what had caused the TARDIS to explode. He might not have all the details, but at least some rough sketches. He might have known that not only was Amy pregnant, but pregant and kidnapped before he runs into her in America (this raises the question of why the TARDIS pregnancy scan - to tell if she's still a ganger, and by hopping around on different adventures, help triangulate on the signal going back to Amy's body so he knows where to look for her). He might have also found out that he was supposed to die, so he helped set up his own death. <br> <br> Now, what's the one thing that River's said about the Doctor? The Doctor lies. The Doctor might have been lying about a couple of things in The Impossible Astronaut. <br> <br> The Doctor lied about being over 1100 years old. <br> <br> The "younger" Doctor lied about not knowing Jim the Fish, in order to wrongfoot River and to get her to go along with the deception. <br> <br> For that matter, the Doctor might have lied at the end of The Big Bang when he told River that he didn't look in her Diary (so some of the info might have come from there). <br> <br> The 908 year old Doctor knows there's the plot for him to be killed, so he gets gets some of the Flesh technology, pushes his mind into a copy and sends it out to be killed, having the copy tell Amy that it's over 1100 years old. After the copy dies, he puts away the rest of the technology for controlling the Flesh body he made, grabs a sippy straw and heads back into the restaurant. <br> <br> For all we know, Canton might have been in on it too - he might also have met Canton at some point before TIA (maybe later in Canton's life - this part doesn't have to happen, though).

  • June 5, 2011, 3:26 p.m. CST

    Horn- and if they're meeting in reverse order...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... who's to say that she hasn't met the Valeyard already and knows what he is to become.??? Maybe this is the day the Doctor does fall further than he ever has....the day that leads to the eventual creation of his darkest foe.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:26 p.m. CST

    Goodnight fellow DocBackers. Catch up with you all tomorrow. Stay safe!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • June 5, 2011, 3:28 p.m. CST

    River Song as the new....

    by Daniel Wright

    It would make for some great conflict/drama if River Song was to become the new Master in the second half of this season. Imagine the emotional possibilities of The Doctor going up against Amy's daughter. They were cultivating her as a new weapon against the Doctor after all. Maybe, as a great man once said, "It's all part of the plan".

  • June 5, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    No, I think it is the Doctor. He died.

    by HornOrSilk

    But he wanted it to appear he was dead to deal with those who were chasing after him -- the new Time Lords, perhaps? But the flesh CAN be used.. to help bring him back to life. His consciousness can be put into it and then he can make it stable to become him. And... this once again.. ties with Dune. Gholas anyone? Duncan Idaho, anyone?

  • June 5, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by HornOrSilk

    Right again; I think she knows, if that is the case.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:35 p.m. CST

    put_him_in_the_curry

    by dogrobber

    I've been thinking (sort of - not that she isn't running a con) the opposite - that the Doctor has known River's secret or secrets all along, and is letting her think she is conning him, simply to further his own endgame. Though that is only really wishful thinking because I hate it when she says "spoilers". I still don't think that River is Amy's child especially because of this episode. Something seemed more off to me than usual about the way she used her diary when Rory went to her in Stormgate (though, in fairness, I thought the specific scene was poorly scripted/thought-out). If a future episode showed that she stole the diary and is injecting herself into key points in time, in place of the 'real' River or Melody, to alter/disrupt events that wouldn't surprise me.

  • June 5, 2011, 3:45 p.m. CST

    River Song

    by dogrobber

    Just to be clear I do like the 'River Song' character most of the time, and would love to see her, along with the rest of last night's updated version of the Special Executive (or, if preferred, the new Freefall Warriors, or Technet), in a few stand alone adventures set in a Valerian/Sillage/almost Farscape type future setting. Plus, for some reason, I like the Stormgate setting. Don't know why.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:05 p.m. CST

    dogrobber - River's timing on the big reveal

    by Ian

    seemed rather suspect, right after the "It's a trap" moment seemed all too perfect. If this indeed is the case, I'm a happy camper.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:06 p.m. CST

    dogrobber - River's timing on the big reveal

    by Ian

    seemed rather suspect, right after the "It's a trap" moment seemed all too perfect. If this indeed is the case, I'm a happy camper.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:07 p.m. CST

    @doctortom re Dorium

    by berserkrl

    He said in an interview that he'd be a good guy in #7 and a "tormenting mentor" in #13.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:11 p.m. CST

    URL for origin of the word "Doctor"

    by berserkrl

    http://www.thisisfakediy.co.uk/articles/television/was-steven-moffat-plotting-doctor-whos-mid-season-finale-sixteen-years-ago

  • June 5, 2011, 4:32 p.m. CST

    River & The Doctor (Or his real name; Ted Okter)

    by Rebel Scumb

    I've really enjoyed Rivers storyline so far, starting all the way back with silence in the library. I don't for one moment think Moffat had it all planned as there are a lot of questional things continuity wise, but I never take continuity in Dr. Who seriously anyways so it doesn't matter. I do think though the one big error they made was not featuring her in at least one of the specials with Tennant before series 5 started. She'd clearly met Dr.10 before, and although I'm sure there are meetings between the episodes, it would of been good to have the two of them together for an adventure before he turned into Smith. Also would of been nice in the montage at the end of of 'the end of time' when goes to visit all of his friends, if we had seen him go and give the sonic screwdriver to River then, knowing the next time he saw her she would die. I also agree that they need to carry her over into at least the 12th doctor's era to really sell the whole notion of her character. I'm really curious to see when all of this is played out, how well it will work to watch all of her appearances back to back from HER perspective. So ending with Forrest of the dead (unless as some suggest she ends up being resurrected out of the library memory)

  • June 5, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST

    Is it wrong to find the Moffat/Smith era Silurian women sexy?

    by Rebel Scumb

    If so, then I am very very wrong indeed!

  • Unlikely it means anything .... maybe he/she did fancy her? The episode graphics often strongly feature minor/one-off characters.

  • June 5, 2011, 4:52 p.m. CST

    Maybe she meets the 10th Doctor

    by HornOrSilk

    In a multi-Doctor event...

  • June 5, 2011, 5:18 p.m. CST

    Speculation on what this all means

    by karmo

    It seems obvious that the Doctor in the future is one evil SOB. Everybody is afraid of him to the point that an alliance has formed against him. He becomes a bully and a tyrant. There are so many things that point in this direction. When Lorna Bucket talks about meeting him as a child, she says that all he says to her is "Run". What if he was saying that not in a "run with me" way, but in a "run away from me" way? In River's big speech to the Doctor, she even warns him that this is the road he is heading down. \ The next episode is titled "Let's Kill Hitler". What if Hitler is the Doctor? Not literally, but in a metaphorical sense? What would you do if you could go back in time and kill Hitler before he came into power and became the genocidal tyrant that he was? I think what we are seeing now is that the Alliance has decided that they would go back in time and kill "Hitler" before he started committing these terrible acts. That is why they are going after the Doctor now. And I do believe that the Doctor will commit terrible acts in the future, but he still sees himself as the protector of humanity, and in many ways he will be, but at what cost? In the very first episode this season, he comments that he "thought he would never finish saving humans". Past tense, because at that point, he is a future (more evil) version of himself, and has possibly already committed genocide on all species that are hostile or a threat to humanity. I think that this is where the series is heading. The Doctor changing his ways so that he does not come to be this future version of himself.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Is the BBC a person in your world diox?

    by Rebel Scumb

    A person who decides to cancel a show that is making millions of a dollars for one that nobody was watching?

  • June 5, 2011, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Ooh, there's an evil Doctor?

    by Subtitles_Off

    I don't like that, right off the bat, but, as I said, I have no business even being a part of the conversation. I'm just tired of the whole hero-gone-bad, shades-of-gray morality, in modern pop art. The opposite, featuring men of strong chins in white hats wearing flags grates on me, too, though. I just wish there could be one hero in pop culture who didn't have to arm-wrestle his or her "dark side." Then again, I also wish there were one that didn't require continual rebooting for relevance. Or, one that wasn't replaceable with a teen sidekick or "hipper" version. I excuse Dr. Who of all of this, in principle, because the legacy aspect is all part of the root concept. I'm talking about your Holmeses, your Tarzans, your Batmen, your Draculas. Still, as a non-Whovian --- a What?ian --- this would probably be the deal-breaker for me. (Who am I kidding? The deal-breaker would be the internecine continuity. I'm generally turned off by a lot of that.)

  • June 5, 2011, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Torchwood better be fucking good

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I've got nothing to watch now except GAME OF THRONES and that ends soon. *Sighs*

  • June 5, 2011, 5:49 p.m. CST

    Word problems

    by The_Mad_Groper

    I don't like how they are twisting the actions of The Doctor from one word (Defender) to another (Warrior). Definition of Warrior Noun 1. a person engaged or experienced in warfare; soldier. 2. a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics or warfare. Definition of Defender Noun 1. a person who protects (a person, place, etc) from harm or danger; ward off an attack on If The Doctor is anything, it's a defender! All the people who are scared of him SHOULD be scared of him! It is the REASON they are scared that should be the focus. They should be scared because by doing wrong (picking on the weak, helpless or many other assorted things) they gain the wrath of The Doctor. In other words, be good for you are being watched! For Pete's sake, he doesn't even kill the Daleks (most of the time) when he has had the opportunity. He always finds some way of stopping them or imprisoning them or banishing them. And when he does kill them, I think that can be more contributed to different writers takes on the character than the character himself. He’s even tried to save Davros several times! In my book, that’s like trying to save Hitler! Although, come to think of it, he didn’t have too much concern for those Cybermen at the beginning of the episode did he? But I do think it says a lot about his character when the people that came to fight by his side were former adversaries.

  • June 5, 2011, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Well he's not evil yet

    by karmo

    I just think that's where he is heading if he doesn't watch it, and I think that in the future, he has already become this person. Of course, evil is a relative term. I'm sure his future self doesn't think of himself as evil, nor do his future friends or the ones he protects. I'm sure his future self just thinks of himself as the protector of humanity and the new sheriff in town.

  • Stargate Bulgaria? That's where most of SyFy's grade z Saturday night movies are filmed.

  • In a quote at a press conference HBO said he was "just tired of making money".

  • June 5, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST

    The Valeyard

    by HornOrSilk

    You first see him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji1xPQX9dAY&feature=fvwrel And the reveal of him being the Doctor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itcIkG1ivuk The Doctor is his own ultimate foe.... originally was intended to have the Trial series end with the Doctor fighting the Valeyard in the Matrix...

  • June 5, 2011, 6:07 p.m. CST

    Hopefully those clips will help people find out about the Valeyard

    by HornOrSilk

    Of course, it cuts through a lot of his sequences and it is out of context; but you see the Master's reveal of the Valeyard and who he is and what he said to be... it's a long established aspect of the Doctor's future now... and really, ever since the 6th Doctor, the Doctor has always had this edge added to him that makes one believe this is possible...

  • June 5, 2011, 6:07 p.m. CST

    With far more thought than Moff ever put into it...

    by Perigee

    There really is a disconnect here. According to River, HER Doctor could handle anything. Armies ran away at the mere mention of him, and he's swagger away in his TARDIS. Oh, how she loved that one. And Tennant wasn't it. And neither is Smith. Although, surely, he's getting there. And, he really didn't take it as a dressing down, did he? It was like... Scrooge, having the past present and future visitations all on in the span of two minutes. And when he left, he seemed to see the whole thing - like the light went on and he got everything worked out. By the way - the Blueberry sell out the headless monks, or The Doctor?

  • June 5, 2011, 6:11 p.m. CST

    Babelcolor's newest

    by HornOrSilk

    The River Song Tribute http://www.youtube.com/user/BabelColour#p/u/0/sBeqAeBorko (Babelcolor often does good work; I'm watching this after posting it here)

  • June 5, 2011, 6:12 p.m. CST

    I would even suggest Babelcolor's 10 Doctors

    by HornOrSilk

    As a DocBack

  • June 5, 2011, 6:22 p.m. CST

    And also Babelcolour did the best he could with the Time War

    by HornOrSilk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afBkMIgj-Rc&feature=channel_video_title If you had not seen it. I doubt we will ever see the Time War, so this is the closest we will get.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:24 p.m. CST

    Standing up for Alex Kingston

    by Peter

    I'm a 40 year old man. Tom Baker was my first Doctor. There's lots of us (mostly men!) around my age still watching the show, just because we fondly remember cowering behind the sofa on a Saturday evening for most of the 70s and early 80s. That's what makes Doctor Who cross-generational and Mr Moffat knows this very well. Alex Kingston's River Song character is for us middle-aged fans. To be frank, you can keep your Amy Pond and Sally Sparrow - Alex is so damn sexy, I've started involuntarily dreaming about her! Of course, she's a good actress too and has instigated some of the most original plots that Who has had for years. But mostly, she's just amazingly hot and I imagine she could make reading the phone book sound dirty. She's a real woman and I hope she sticks around for years (some hope). In fact, she would make a rather good Doctor herself!

  • June 5, 2011, 6:27 p.m. CST

    perigee

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm beginning to think of how River described "her Doctor" she is talking about the 11th Doctor as she encountered him -- as a little kid. You know how kids always see things and heroes and larger than life. That is how she remembered the Doctor from her youth. Or maybe some future Doctor. But you get the point. I'm thinking that memory she is describing is how she saw the Doctor as a young kid.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:40 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - in which case

    by Perigee

    Maybe this Really Is a game changer, in that from here on out DW will be kind of an entirely different program, with The Doctor finding REAAALLY smart ways of diffusing problems, without pissing anybody off. I'd like to see how they'd do it - but you'd need a Whogenius like Moff to pull it off with flare consistently - and watchably. It would be a mean trick - but cool as hell.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    re: The Valeyard - just rewatched the episode ...

    by dogrobber

    ... well, had it on as background noise while I worked. If you watch it with the idea that we haven't actually seen any real villains yet/everything that has happened - Amy's kidnapping, taking the baby, raising an army to fight the Doctor, anything River might be doing or do, the future or past killing(s) of the Doctor(s) - are bad things done for good reasons, and that Kovarian is not exactly lying about the war being waged against the Doctor, the Valeyard being the series' big bad fits. Course, this version of the Valeyard could be the Doctor, a GangerDoc, an insane Jackson Lake, the DoctorDonna, the reanimate corpse of the other Donna, the human Doctor from the other dimension, that too-smart kid from the SJA that I don't care for, etc., etc.... Or it could just as easily be the Master, the Meddling Monk, the Dream Lord, the Black Guardian, cast members of Dead Ringers, Jonathan Price, blah, blah, blah .... nevermind.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Watched those 2 clips

    by Extr3m1st

    And I must say you all are better Who fans than I. I can't tell you how much better in IMO Smith is as this character then the guy who played the doctor in those valeyard clips. I am sure had I seen those episodes growing up I would have loved them. But I never liked the look of old Dr Who, I fear I did miss out on some good stuff for those days. But to go back and watch now would be impossible for me.

  • June 5, 2011, 6:57 p.m. CST

    That timewar video was pretty awesome!

    by Rebel Scumb

    Would be even better if they added in some stuff from 'the end of time' with rasilon and and whatnot. I still kind of hope they do a tv movie with McGann of the timewar someday, though I doubt they will. And because it takes place between classic Who and new-Who it makes sense to a degree. But still. It would be really great for McGann to have a great epic space war one-off or mini-series to shine in.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST

    phapbor54, the title will be "Stargate Bukkake"

    by DoctorTom

    The BBC spokesman said that "this is what the Stargate fans are doing anyway, so we might as well be honest about it. Besides, we got tired of providing entertainment for entire family and instead we are going to live up to our charter by concentrating on niche markets instead. In this case we will be concentrating on the nice market of sad lonely wankers who should go back to their parents basements if they don't already live there." <br> <br> <br> And, in other news BBC also stated that from now on, they will only be allowed to drive solar powered lawn mowers on Top Gear.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST

    Classic Doctor Who can be tough for some to watch

    by HornOrSilk

    However, I always recommend people see it as a kind of televised play -- it helps get people to see it in a different light and expectation. The Valeyard was actually played be a great actor -- Michael Jayston. The script suffered a lot that season - for many reasons -- causing a mess of a season, but, despite it, I liked the themes and have always wanted the Valeyard to return (and to explain many things while doing so). Big Finish did one version of that by doing a "What if the Valeyard won" instead of the Doctor. It's view of the Valeyards motives I didn't agree with, but, it was still done well enough because of the cast. Nonetheless, to watch classic Who, it is best to watch some Pertwee or Tom Baker first. I find all Doctors are great, but later ones tended to have problems outside of their control. Indeed, Sly being in the Lord of the Rings should say enough about that. The Big Finish audios have helped the 5th through 8th Doctors tremendously (and the EDA audios are more like the new series in format). But -- again -- to watch classic Who, one must get beyond effects and look for the story/characterization/etc.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:08 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, a new edition with clips from the End of Time would be nice, but I can understand why that was not done. And I certainly would love to have Paul do something more on screen. But, if we don't, the end of his EDA line really set things off so that, if they wanted, it would be a perfect lead in to the Doctor going to war...

  • ...he could easily have been the Doctor at the end of Season 6, setting things up for the beginning of Season 6. I suspect that we'll find out that young Melody/River is being programmed to kill the Doctor, and the Doctor engineered that happening at the beginning of TIA. This would be a Melody/River before the "six months later" regeneration. It did seem like the 1969 Silents were clued in on things that they shouldn't have been, like the Doctor being killed. The Doctor can still do the hijinks with the Flesh in order to not die himself.

  • 1) They might have started out a a cover for gangers who turned human (might be why all the Flesh technology is around). This doesn't feel quite right, but we do know they have the Flesh technology, and it's presumably set sometime around River's Stormwarden "hometime". <br> <br> 2) (This would be even more interesting). These people will become/became in the past the Time Agency that Moffat mentioned in The Empty Child. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moffat picking up some of the plot threads there. If he decides to go with most of the Time Agency having been destroyed, they might be trying to build a new one with "super" human agents.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:22 p.m. CST

    The Time Agency

    by HornOrSilk

    Goes back to Tom Baker's era... ;)

  • June 5, 2011, 7:25 p.m. CST

    True, hornorsilk

    by DoctorTom

    although it was only mentioned the once in Talons of Weng Chiang. We didn't actually see any Time Agents. <br> <br> Also, it seems like there's a difference between the Zygma energy used to get Magnus Greel back in time and the Vortex Manipulators that the Time Agency use now. Of course, that could just be a difference between 50th and 51st-52nd century technology.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:32 p.m. CST

    Top Notch Episode - Spoilers obviously

    by sunspot_mike

    The jokes were great and the timing was dead to rights (The Doctors double teaming River, the fucking hilarious Stevie Wonder joke, the epic repeat the question line, the Sontaran nurse's final words to Rory.) We all figured River would be Amy's daughter, so that wasn't a monster reveal, but they handled it so well and that scene was beautiful. The speeches were excellent, Dorian's headless body, the monks tied-off necks (what an awesome way to scare the crap outta the kids!), Lorna's death. And they even connected the gay marriage theme from the first story. A classic episode, best of the season and the mid-season finale was a great way to give us more story and less filler. I pumped my fist and laughed out loud multiple times. And my jaw fell open when I saw "Let's Kill Hitler". I can't wait!

  • June 5, 2011, 7:34 p.m. CST

    And, I'm still getting a Dune feel for this series

    by HornOrSilk

    So -- the Anglican Church probably has their Orange Catholic Bible. And the flesh are gholas. And the Doctor/River connects to what happens with Duncan Idaho. Anything else? The Spice=Time Lord DNA? Anything else?

  • June 5, 2011, 7:39 p.m. CST

    I'm not quite sure about that

    by DoctorTom

    given the leaked clip for episode 13. Emperor Churchill on his mammoth isn't quite the same as what we've had for Dune - closer to being Back to the Future with a changed "present" if you have to compare to a movie. <br> <br> Though it wouldn't surprise me to see giant worms produced from the Flesh running around and attacking people (maybe in the next episode?)

  • June 5, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    It's because there are many elements going on and not just the Dune. However, we also know the Cybermen will be back, and that also connects with Dune (machines /cyborgs are always to be destroyed). Certainly Back to the Future is a part of the flow. And "Ghost Train." But I think we are getting a Doctor Who (time travel) way of dealing with Duncan Idaho dynamics.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:52 p.m. CST

    Funny you should mention Talons of Weng-Chiang

    by Rebel Scumb

    I just watched it for the first time last night. It was on sale at HMV so I grabbed it. I've been slowly building my classic Who library but they're quire pricey so I wait for good deals. I've got about 30 or so now, plus the whole Key to Time saga. None of the 2nd or 6th doctor's adventures yet, except for Troughton being in 'the 3 doctors' and 'the 5 doctors' although I have seen tomb of the cybermen before. Otherwise all doctors are represented. Talons was good, very atmospheric, and I very very rarely get to say this with classic Who, but great production values also. Although the white guy playing a chinese guy is pretty painful to watch in modern day, and there are some cringe worthy lines like said faux-chinese magician saying things like "I understand yo misundastanding. We all look alike" But that aside its quite good. I've enjoyed Leela in the few adventures I've seen with her. I actually think Carnival of Monsters is one of my favorite classic Who serials. Also the first story with the Silurians, where the cliffhanger ends with the silurian first being revealed and Pertwee looking terrified. and then when the next episode starts he just calmly walks up to the Silurian and says "hello. are you a silurian?" and shakes his hand has to be the most hilarious way out of a cliffhanger I've ever seen in anything.

  • June 5, 2011, 7:55 p.m. CST

    Sounds like I need to read DUNE.

    by Rebel Scumb

    My dad is a big Dune junky. That and Lord of the rings I remember him reading constantly when I was a kid. I've seen the scifi miniseries and the david lynch movie, but haven't read the books yet. Just started the dark tower though, so need to finish that first plus song of ice and fire... and the wheel of time... and the rest of the Kushiel series... so many books. so little time

  • June 5, 2011, 8 p.m. CST

    Those are all good episodes, rebel scumb

    by DoctorTom

    I've always liked Carnival of Monsters. It seems underrated by most people, though. The 1st Silurian story is good, as are most the stories that season. The 1st Auton story is quite nice, and Inferno was fun, using parallel universes to manage to go 7 episodes with a story that wouldn't have stretched that far if it had only taken place in one universe. It also had the advantage of being able to actually showing the consequences of what was happening. <br> <br> Most of the season with Talons of Weng Chiang is good also. The Deadly Assassin, The Face of Evil and The Robots of Death are classic. The Masque of Mandragora was a nice story if a little lightweight. To me, The Hand of Fear was a fairly meh story that most likely would have been forgotten if it weren't the one that Sarah Jane left at the end of.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:05 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb -- with Dune

    by HornOrSilk

    The series is good, but very weird. The first, of course, is the best; then the original trilogy is all classic. Things really go strange with the fourth onward. I like them, however, and I think there is a lot in them. I won't say more so as not to spoil it.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:06 p.m. CST

    Oh, and Carnival Of Monsters

    by HornOrSilk

    It's one I don't like much, but many others do. I've always been underwhelmed by it.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:21 p.m. CST

    doctortom & hornorsilk

    by Rebel Scumb

    doctortom: The Masque of Mandragora & Face of Evil I haven't seen but I have the others you mentioned. I really liked Robots of death. Actually a cool aside in Robots of death. There's a part where Tom Baker mentions the Titanic in sdome offhand comment like "well we don't want to go down with the titanic" and one of the rich mining company people says "what's the titanic?" Makes me wonder if when RTD was doing 'voyage of the damned' which has identical robots and a similar elite space faring society, if the hidden idea is that after hearing about the titanic from the doctor, that culture decided to build the space-titanic. Could also just be a coincidence. But it is the same robots. hornorsilk: I like carnival of monsters because its one of the few pertwee episodes with some space/time tardis travel. Plus I like stories where people get shrunk, and also it has an amazing monster with that giant worm dragon thing.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Sam Jacksons Wig

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    Yeah, I saw those eps and I agree, but I do think Tennant's Doc realized the errors of his ways after the chick committed suicide at the end of the ep. I think a perfect example (I think) is that in AGMGTW, the Doctor gets angry. And then a pause...."Anger.....that's new." The 11th Doc so far has becomed feared only because he is clever enough to figure out how to protect innocents. He tells enemies to "run" because he gives them a chance to live and "be so much better." If he would have coined the catchphrase "finish them." well, no that's a pre-meditated example of fear and warrior.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:41 p.m. CST

    re: rebelscumb

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    For Dune, the 1st book was fantastic. The next few devolve into some very weird metaphysical territory, and is much different from the straight-up political intrigue/pure action of the first novel. Then the last 2 books of the series--Heretics and Chapterhouse--follow the 1st book's style a bit more closely, and are a pretty decent read. Stay away from the Kevin J. Anderson follow ups/prequels though. Reading Herbert's stuff and then reading KJA's is much like enjoying 1st class on a flight for several years and then being forced to use coach. It's something of a step down, in terms of story construction and style. Also, for your own sake, stay away from Wheel of Time. That's probably one of the biggest literary train wrecks in modern sci-fi/fantasy since Dark Tower.

  • June 5, 2011, 8:51 p.m. CST

    "Standing up for Alex Kingston"

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    I'll always be immensely fond of her due to ER ... The wife and I were massive supporters of the show right until the end and she was always a breath of fresh air when she appeared. Wonderful actress with genuine on-screen presence.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:06 p.m. CST

    maelstrom

    by Rebel Scumb

    Interesting to hear you say that about wheel of time. I've never heard anything but positive word of mouth about that series. Its down the pipeline for me reading wise anyways as I have a huge list of books to read before I get to that anyways.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:12 p.m. CST

    But Who is River?

    by Phil Lamarre

    Yes she's Amy and Rory's daughter. But aside from that who is she in the grand scheme of things. None of that has been answered.

  • June 5, 2011, 9:32 p.m. CST

    River is a Part Timelord. Here's why:

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    How powerful (and amazing) has the Doctor, a Timelord become? The Doctor is a legend. A force. He's defeated ALL of his most powerful enemies. Saved billions, etc. What if you took control and used a part-Timelord to your advantage to one day use against him? That's what River is. (Or meant to be) However, what Eyepatch chick, (I know I could google her name, I dont care) Did NOT count on River falling for the Doctor and the Doctor falling for her. The Doctor will fall......IN LOVE. And he did. Look at his face when he realizes who River IS.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:25 p.m. CST

    re: rebel scumb

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    Wheel of Time is one of those series where it starts off quite well, then spirals uncontrollably into a really awful nosedive. The first, say, 4 books of the series do a good job at establishing a very complex world and its pretty interesting inhabitants, but after that, it kind of collapses under the weight of its own overwrought pretentiousness. Also, it was kind of annoying how lots of major elements seemed ripped straight from Dune.

  • June 5, 2011, 10:35 p.m. CST

    evilred

    by Perigee

    Welll... Kinda alittle, it was. "The Doctor will find your daughter. And he will care for her, whatever it takes." Yeah, yeah, River lies. But I just get a feeling of continuity from that. I don't see her going Master-ish or Big Baddish for anything more than perhaps an episode, through programming. I'm getting an ally vibe here pretty strongly.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:08 p.m. CST

    My first posting

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Hi guys, I have been lurking in these "Docbacks" for a while now, but i finally signed up so I can post. I am a Yank, but I still love Doctor Who, I even cosplay as the 11th Doctor at conventions. Anyway, I must say, being a fan of all 11 Doctors, I feel that so far Matt Smith has been one of the best. This last episode, his reactions, the look of anger and anguish on his face at the same time, shows the incredible talent he possesses. As to the River reveal, yeah I saw it coming. As for whether she has her own TARDIS, well, she was wearing a vortex manipulator, it was shown briefly on her left wrist. Anyway, here is too the rest of this series, hoping it ends as well as it has been so far.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Also...a theory

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Some of you have mentioned that you feel the Doctor is becoming more evil. This will most likely lead to the Valeyard, at least I hope it will. I know it is supposed to be between the 11th and 12th regenerations, and technically it was the 10th regeneration that made Doctor 11, however, there was that misused regeneration the 10th Doctor did, do you think that counts as a full regeneration?

  • June 5, 2011, 11:15 p.m. CST

    Kudos to Matt Smith

    by karmo

    Firstly, I just want to say that I've never watched classic Doctor Who. When I was a kid, it was just the weird British show that was occasionally shown on PBS (public broadcasting in the US). But I really do love the new show. I thought nobody could top Tennant, and when Matt Smith was first announced I really had my doubts, but he has been wonderful. I take my hat off to him as he has done a terrific job. He has really put his own wonderfully quirky spin on the character, and he may become my favorite of the new Doctors when all is said and done.

  • June 5, 2011, 11:17 p.m. CST

    Darthdevious, you beat me to the Matt Smith praise

    by karmo

  • June 5, 2011, 11:25 p.m. CST

    How Dorium Escaped & @perigee on Dr vs. USA

    by veteran_of_mu

    Well, Dorium is a trader in technologies. And an avowed coward. So when an avowed coward goes walking up happily to embrace his own destruction at the hands of a foe whom he understands completely, you can rely on the fact that he is using a technological trick to escape. To wit, the flesh. Poor old ganger Dorium loses his head, thereby putting all the Doctor's foes off his trail and getting away scott free. Hence his "Goodbye" - he knew he'd have to close down his operation because he knew the Doctor would call. And that tells us something very important. Dorium sold the flesh to Madame Kevorkian. That's why she paid him a visit - to see what else he'd sell. But Dorium is not silly enough to be on the Doctor's wrong side - and we all know how stupid it is to put the Doctor in a trap. Kevorkian's goose was cooked before she even started. Now to perigee's remonstration that River offended him "as an American", well, being a citizen of both the Commonwealth and the United States I feel pretty well qualified to answer you. Quite frankly, the Doctor is British. In fact the Doctor is very much a product of Britain embodying British virtues and British flaws. He is not and never has been comfortable with "might makes right". He won't carry a gun. River's point is the same as Davros's point. The Doctor uses people as weapons. And if the Doctor is going to stop lying to himself - the prerequisite for lying to others - he will have to stop using people as weapons. And that's what the British do. You have only to understand the history of the British empire to see that their relationship with their colonies is very much the same as the Doctor's with his companions. The Empire was astoundingly successful at creating parliamentary democracies all around the world - enlightening people - where the USA happily does its business with dictators and has never created a lasting democracy anywhere. Including, regrettably, within its own borders. I don't mean to offend you by saying this - very much enjoy your contributions here - but I think you need to look at River's criticisms of the Doctor by comparison with, say, the obvious hypocrisy of Star Trek or Star Wars, American Sci-Fi/Fantasy, rather than by comparison with America per se. Because, if you'll forgive me, America today is very much a Valeyard in its own right.

  • June 6, 2011, 12:34 a.m. CST

    Don't start a US vs. UK thing in here

    by sunspot_mike

    caractuspotts - I don't think the African colonies transitioned that easily into parliamentary democracies. However, the Doc is very uniquely British and a great example on a culture that represents the post-imperial society. But perigee, I think you're being a little bit too sensitive here. A powerful nation, like a powerful man, needs to be careful when swinging its weight around. The US followed a path of vengeance because of our post-9/11 anger, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to history to decide. But the show has always been about anti-impierial. I don't think the Doctor is an avatar for too much American power, but for too much power in general. In this one, the Doctor who to rein his anger in so he doesn't make mistakes. They talk about the "rules" of a good man. That's been a long-standing trope of the new series, remember how he punished the Family of Blood? Or how "Turn Left" showed that his anger led to his own death when he was killing that campy space spider queen. He banishes his clone to the Cybus universe after he genocides the Daleks and how he was almost going to use the Delta Wave to kill the Daleks again in "The Parting of the Ways" and then stops at the last minute? ("Coward. Every time." - a great moment that shows how the Doctor has grown since the Time War ended and Eccleston nails it so beautifully. We forget about him, sometimes, but he was an awesome Doctor with a couple of genuine all-time classic episodes ("Dalek" and of course, "The Empty Child/Doctor Dances") The Moff took his potshots at us with the gay marriage jokes (rightfully so, and they weren't clumsy) but he treated Nixon fairly, which lesser shows wouldn't do. The Doctor needing to balance his power and temper his anger is in the DNA of the show now (see what I did there?) They're finally exploring the themes first introduced in McCoy's time with the Doc as this cosmic manipulative force to be reckoned with. And now he's unleashed. That's more about power in general, and it could refer to almost empire in history. Shit, Rory is dressed as a Roman and they picked a Silurian out of the Victorian Imperial era - I'd say they let the US off the hook!

  • June 6, 2011, 12:35 a.m. CST

    No argument here, caractacuspotts

    by Perigee

    We are all prisoners of our cultural mores, absolutely certainly myself included. I enjoy foreign film myself - most Americans don't. And I understand why. We love clearly delineated lines of good and bad - and, if none exist, someone Always rushes in to define it for us. Once we have the good and bad sorted out (in our own minds, if not reality), we gallop off to make things right. For us. ~grin~ Fortunately, it appears we have some rational limits - if only just barely. The "Teabagger" radical right republicans are an absolute characture of Americanism, and, looking in that fun house mirror, the vast majority of us flinch away in repulsion. As to lasting Democracies, I'd have a look at Japan, South Korea, The Phillipines and Germany before painting with such a broad brush. But that was long ago. And I'd say easily since the sixties, American Government has been an increasingly greasy, evil bastard. Both at home and abroad. Anyone with a cluster of operational brain cells does question the motivations of Unca Sam; they have some kind of agenda, but it does not correspond with the needs and expectations of 90% of the citizenry. The dissolution of the middle class over the past two decades, etc. But, enough politics. My America - my vision of it - was forged as a child in the mid sixties. We still wore a white hat, back then. And yes, we were brash, and pre-emptive, and arrogant - but our intentions were still pure (if incredibly naiv