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Hey Docbackers, 'Let's...Kill...Hitler!!" DOCTOR WHO S6 Returns - READER REACTION Here!!

 

 

In the 1980s, AICN reader Beamus built his own Dalek.  It eventually challenged third Doctor Jon Pertwee in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.  The Dalek is now dormant in Beamus' garage, and autographed by Dalek creator Terry Nation.  The image above  is a scan of 3D source material, hence its slightly blurred appearance.

 

 

Merrick here...

 

...celebrating the return of DOCTOR WHO Season/Series Six with "Let's Kill Hitler," the eight installment of the current series. 

This is traditionally where I'd offer a bit of first-hand, spoiler-free perspective/preview about a coming weekend's episode.  Alas, my screening capability of "Let's Kill Hitler" never materialized and...at the time of this posting...e-mails about the matter have remained unanswered.  Given that the episode has already been screened publicly and has already been the subject of multiple reviews elsewhere, and given that I've pre-screened all previous DWs this Season/Series to date, it's hard not to wonder if...perhaps...I've done something to evoke the ire of BBC or The Powers That Be.  To be very clear here, in no way am I suggesting that I'm somehow "entitled" -  or that I am by any measure unappreciative.  I'm just noting these highly odd circumstance, and venting a bit of aggravation. 

Regardless of how this matter is ultimately sorts out , the Friday Docbacks/Reader Reactions will move stoically, and eternally, onward. 

 

 

AN IMPORTANT WARNING ABOUT SPOILERS

The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback - aka "Docback" - below is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe. 

Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.  

While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become a SPOILER INTENSIVE ZONE late tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday August 27) - when "Let's Kill Hitler" airs in the U.K. 

If you wish to remain free and clear of "Let's Kill Hitler" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, please tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.  

U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS):  please consider this ample notice and fair warning. 

 

 

 

A QUICK NOTE NEW AND RETURNING VISITORS / PARTICIPANTS  

WELCOME to a very special, incredibly fascinating, and all-around-cool community of WHOvians. It is a pleasure to "meet" you.  If you've any interest in DOCTOR WHO at all, you will almost certainly learn something here.  I do...every day...and I love it.  

Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the Code of Conduct posted below.  Before you ask, YES, we're serious and YES it works pretty well.   Please don't hesitate to join in, and have fun! 

 

 

 

 

PREVIOUS DOCBACKS

[S6 (1) DOCBACKS]


"The Impossible Astronaut"

"Day of the Moon"

"The Curse of the Black Spot"

"The Doctor's Wife"

"The Rebel Flesh"

"The Almost People"

"A Good Man Goes To War"

 

 

[RETRO-WHO DOCBACKS]

"Time and the Rani"

"Merrick's Personal Journey With The Doctor / "Frontios"

"An Unearthly Child"

DOCTOR WHO Title Sequences & DW At Comic-Con 2011

"The Daleks," "The Awakening," "The Crash of the Elysium"

"The Gunfighters" / "The Edge Of Destruction"

Why Eccleston Left, Here Comes Caroline Skinner, And Season/Series Six Part 1 on Blu-Ray And DVD

"Paradise Towers" / New WHOvian Documentary / Newsbits

New Trailer For Season/Series Six Part 2

"Marco Polo" and "The Sun Makers"

"Day of the Daleks" (+ Preview Of DotD Special Edition)

 

 

WATCH EPISODES FROM THE CURRENT SEASON/SERIES

See DOCTOR WHO  Season/Series Six Episode 1  - "The Impossible Astronaut"  - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.

Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife"  - is available HERE in HD, while standard def is availabe HERE

Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.

Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.  

Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.

Episode 8 - "Let's Kill Hitler" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE

 

 

 

 

 
 
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
 
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks"  - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks.  These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them.  Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:  
 
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)... 

2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity.  Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example.  "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well.  "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?"  Is NOT good.  

And, above all... 

3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way.  Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning.  Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated.  Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.  
 
In short, it's easy.  Be excellent to each other.  Now party on...
 
 

 
Readers Talkback
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  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:39 a.m. CST

    The Basterds already killed Hitler

    by Nasty In The Pasty

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:43 a.m. CST

    Let's DO THIS..

    by notspock2

    The slowest 26 hours of the year starts... NOW

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:44 a.m. CST

    So the Doctor teams up with a Dalek to Kill Hitler?

    by HornOrSilk

    I bet you didn't see that coming! Looking forward to Doctor Who tomorrow!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:49 a.m. CST

    Yay!!!!

    by Elsewhere

    Wish I didn't have to work tomorrow so I could marathon the first 7 episodes of the season prior. But that's okay, NEW WHO!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 11:03 a.m. CST

    Staving off my Who pangs with..........

    by siddelicious

    Game of Thrones on this rather moist Friday afternoon in Yorkshire. Can't wait for tomorrow for the most consistently brilliant show on television today. Already stocked up on Jammie Dodgers. No Toblerone for me.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 11:06 a.m. CST

    I've seen it...

    by huskerdu2

    ...and very good it is too. Funniest episode of the run so far and definitely not what you'd expect from the title.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Hornorsilk - Doctor and Daleks killing Hitler

    by DoctorTom

    You should let the guy who wrote the article in the other thread about the Jewish Daleks know about this. He'll feel his theories are validated.

  • I guess the strategy for splitting the season this year is paying off. We kept talking about Who during the break, and now we're getting it again, and then we can keep talking about it until the Christmas episode, and then....oh well, lengthy period of DocBacks because of the Olympics.

  • It depended on who they got. The Germans might not have made some of the more questionable decisions of Hitler (I'm reminded of The Princess Bride at this point - the Most Important Rule: Never get involved in a land war in Asia) and had many more gains which could have changed everything. It depends on when Hitler is replaced and who does it.

  • her comments from early in the season about having met the Doctor when she was so young and being impressed with him. We were probably supposed to think at the time that she's talking about being the young girl in The Impossible Astronaut. Could she have been referring to A Good Man Goes To War, and she actually remembers being a baby and having the Doctor tell her that it's best not to call Amy 'Big Milk Thing'?

  • Hang on to your fez... http://www.henrymakow.com/dr_who_as_an_illuminati_vehicl.html

  • Honestly, I don't know if it's an elaborate hoax or if the poor sap actually believes what he's typing.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    RE: Illuminati Who

    by Captain Howdy

    He seems like a nice, stable fellow.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:21 p.m. CST

    Jewish Daleks?

    by buggerbugger

    Everybody knows that the Daleks are Space Nazis. It's the Thals who are the Space Jews.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:21 p.m. CST

    No screener?

    by Mister Vertue

    I can't hang around for very long this week, but I wanted to assure you that I had absolutely *nothing* to do with your screener going missing. Honest. You'd be amongst the first to get one if it was in my powers to arrange such things. Do you have any contacts at the Beeb? I honestly have no idea how these things are arranged (in terms of being sent to websites, etc), so I really can't be of much use in this case. Sorry! That and the fact that I'm out on official 'business' with the missus now that she's not prowling the streets at night with a bunch of questionable men. So if I don't make it back before tomorrow, and I highly doubt I will be, I hope you all enjoy the new episodes! I look forward to reading (mostly) positive reviews when I next return.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    when the jews

    by emeraldboy

    came to the uk and america after fleeing the holocaust, where they welcomed with open arms. no, they were treated as the enemy because they were german. They were placed in detention camps and were forcibly educted to learn english history and thier german ancestry removed. when they were released from these camps, they were treated with utter hostility by local populace. Oswald Mosley's black facists made sure to exploit this. Nobody in the us talks about this but the same thing happened with koreans. the koreans who fled their homeland where placed into camps but they were told not to mix with the us populace. they had their own shops and stuff. ireland doesnt speak about it but we had our facists too. and they were mainstream also and the party who were ais eirigh drew support from all three main political parties.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    A quick jump in today before I re-appear tomorrow...

    by sam jacksons wig

    Hello Docbackers!!! We are nearly here! The excitement is palpable. The biscuit cupboard is heaving. The toblerones are lined up according to preference and tastiness (siddelicious- for shame! For shaaaaame!!!) The regulars are showing up: emeraldboy, notspock, doctortom, horn, scratch- it is going to be an absolute pleasure to go through the next few weeks with you guys as well as a host of newcomers!!! Alas, work will keep me away until tomorrow after this post, (didn't think I would make this one but craftily managed a spare 5 minutes). To all LET'S GET READY TO KILL HITLER!!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Unfortunately Hurricane Irene....

    by DellsDontBounce

    is almost guaranteed to knock power out in my area after noon tomorrow until sometime on Sunday or Monday. Boooo.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 1:50 p.m. CST

    Dellsdontbounce and everyone affected by the Hurricaine.

    by notspock2

    STAY SAFE. That's an order.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 1:54 p.m. CST

    Do Jewish Daleks...

    by dj_bollocks

    ...have their suction cups missing ?

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Actually, dj bollocks

    by DoctorTom

    They have the hump backs removed. The new Daleks we saw in Victory of the Daleks just hadn't had the humpectomy yet.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    MOV

    by Merrick

    Thank you so much for your post - its spirit is very much appreciated. I never suspected you for a moment. Based on the particular mechanics of my arrangement with BBC, I *believe* I know where the problem may lie - but can't be sure without further communication from the network (so far, no response to two e-mails). On my end, the window between screener and airdate has always been small for DW, hence the cursory nature of many previous S6 write-ups. "A Good Man..." was pushed ludicrously close (screener the night before!?). "Hitler?" Still nothing. We'll see where it goes. Have a lovely weekend, sir.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    Let's Kill Hitler...

    by Casey4147

    Waiting patiently. Got the DVR timer set, and should Irene have her way with the East Coast I have my Series 6 Part 2 Season Pass in at iTunes already. Still, gonna be a long wait...

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Can we also have LOCKBACKS for Sherlock appreciation...?

    by wtriker1701

    Ahhh, just kidding... Wheather here in Northern Germany plays havoc... but by far not on IRENE's scale, I know. Hope for everyone NOT to be injured or worse. I hope for the best of you over there... across the big blue pond... Looking fooooooooooorward to tomorrow night.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Wooooo!!! Der sBaze Chewden!!!!

    by Perigee

    Exterminate YOU!!!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    When will I learn?

    by Perigee

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    River

    by Mark Leffler

    Building on doctortom's speculation... River's comment about being so impressed with the doctor from a very early age. That could also be said about young Amelia. River's reaction to rory the centurion outside her cell - she could be remembering her first husband. Maybe she's Amy.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Never use quotations in this benighted place.

    by Perigee

    Hiya kiddies - good to see the clan assembling, and God Willing and the non-Canton Delaware don't rise, I'll be here to get all giddy about tomorrows Festival of Wimeyness. I'll stop now, before I get literally circumcised again.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Let's Bang Amy

    by Dennis_Moore

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:27 p.m. CST

    Dr Who is a Pussy.

    by notspock2

    Seriously -11 doctors, in cat form. http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dmjennyparks.jpeg

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Lock and load, baby

    by ByTor

    I am SO READY. Been rewatching S6 this week. Also watched the two BBCA specials which...well, they're nothing special, but kind of fun. They interview some pseudo-celebrities (and one or two real ones) about various bits of Who. I wish U-Verse would hurry the hell up and get BBCA in HD. Nnnggghhh.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 2:47 p.m. CST

    A Silurian Victorian Detective and a Sontaran Wet Nurse

    by Perigee

    Spacefaring Pirates... Has anybody else wondered if the surreal destruction of reality that ends up with a Dino-riding Churchill may have started much earlier than we've been expecting?

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:05 p.m. CST

    Peter Vincent vs the Great Vampire

    by HornOrSilk

    Ok, not going to happen. But would be a funny Doctor Who cross-over film.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Saw this today at Edinburgh fest

    by Desmondo

    Don't think people will be disappointed. Lots of fun. A few twists along the way. It looked great on the big screen. (Hope I haven't double posted...)

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:33 p.m. CST

    The coolest scene is when ...

    by berserkrl

    they kill Hitler, and as he's dying he asks Amy "are you my mummy?" and then he regenerates into River Sing.

  • I thought it was supposed to air between the two half seasons of Who, but that obviously didn't happen, so what's the dealio, yo? Anybody know? And yes, I rhyme. All the time.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:39 p.m. CST

    @perigree - wth did you mean...?

    by wtriker1701

    Didn't understand a word.... Chewden??? What???

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:41 p.m. CST

    Great episode

    by IchabodCrane1984

    Hi, am new to the Docbalk, have been reading it for the past year or so and felt the need to contribute. Have just been to a screening at my local cinema of the new episode 'Let's Kill Hitler'. It was showing as part of the Edinburgh TV Festival. Firstly I should say that it was an amazing experience seeing an episode on the cinema screen, the audience went wild at the end. I wont go into spoilers but will say that this is one of my fave Matt Smith episodes. There is a lot going on in the episode and it really takes the story forward answering some questions we have been waiting to have confirmed. As someone who was brought up on the Tom Baker Doc I have enjoyed Who since I was a small lad in the late 70s. I must say that after Tom Baker Matt Smith is now my second fave Doc. He has some great moments in this episode as does Rory. Amy is Amy as you would expect. The episode flew by and I really wanted more. I was also struck with how great an idea it would be to show each episode each week in the cinema, like the Flash Gordon series of the past. Imagine following the Doctors adventures with a large enthusiastic audience each week? Anyone withg me? Enjoy the episode Tomorrow night, it's a cracking ride, I will be watcging it again and hope to chat to you after..please don't bite!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:43 p.m. CST

    Stegman84 RE: Sherlock

    by notspock2

    An enigmatic person who would likely know says it finished shooting in the last 2 days, and that there's no broadcast date yet.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 3:43 p.m. CST

    The best time to kill Hitler would be when he was in WWI...

    by Arafel

    ..and he was injured in a poison gas attack. It would be easy to just kill him there, and then maybe WWII would never have happened.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST

    Maybe I'm Amazed

    by IchabodCrane1984

    slight spoiler........ The title of this episode does not bring you what you would expect.... It's even better!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 4:24 p.m. CST

    ichabodcrane1984 , welcome to the DocBacks!

    by DoctorTom

    Come on in and stay a spell! It's always nice to have new people coming in and joining in on the conversation. <br> Thanks for the spoiler-free review of Let's Kill Hitler, it's stoking me up even more for tomorrow night. <br> I somewhat agree on the Doctor rankings - like you I was brought up on Tom Baker, and he is the nostalgic favorite for me. To me, though, if Matt Smith isn't tied with him then they're within a gnat's whisker of each other. <br> Of course, ranking the Doctors gets to be a fool's errand at some point, and we should go with the Brig's comment - 'splendid chaps, all of them'. Still, some you just take a little bit more of a shine to.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 4:24 p.m. CST

    Thanks notspock2

    by Stegman84

    Much appreciated pal. Though that seems a bit odd if they have only just finished shooting as I thought Martin Freeman was still hard at work in NZ, but maybe The Hobbit is currently on a filming break, and he shot his Sherlock stuff then. Oh well, the wait for Sherlock continues. On to Doctor Who then...

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 4:41 p.m. CST

    stegman84, speaking of The Hobbit....

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    The Seventh Doctor is in that movie! Cool beans

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:10 p.m. CST

    The TARDIS lands into Middle Earth and Ace blows up Smaug??!?!?!

    by HornOrSilk

    WHAT?!?!!?

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:19 p.m. CST

    Man_of_Vertue

    by Captain Dobie

    Am I right in assuming MOV is VERY connected to the show itself (in which case cool name) and may also have an equally strong connection to Sherlock....if so kudos to him for participating in the talkbacks

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:25 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - The Master is trying to obtain the one ring!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:27 p.m. CST

    WOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

    by Hideo Kojima

    sup fellow docbackers, have been out of town and haven't been able to check in here which is a shame (but it helps me avoiding spoilers!) the DOC is BACK baby... when do episodes start airing? I usually d/l them a couple hours of airing in UK...

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Gonna miss

    by Gavin

    The next 2moro epps, cause am in crete o n vacation.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:54 p.m. CST

    Captain Dobie

    by notspock2

    Whoever he may or may not be, when he's here, he's one of us.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:54 p.m. CST

    I, for one

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    . . .am curiously expectant. AGMGTW was not as mind blowing as, say, 11th Hour, or even the S6 opening 2 parter, so I've been kind of disappointed thus far. But maybe, just maybe, this new episode will make me fall in love with Who all over again. I fervently hope it will.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 5:57 p.m. CST

    :) :) :) :) :)

    by shibleybc

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Evening All.....well technically morning for me :(

    by shibleybc

    Glad to see everyone is here, well nearly everyone. Frozen, Pogue, Smashing wakey wakey, its time to come out of hibernation peeps :P

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:13 p.m. CST

    I suspect... possible spoiler

    by GeptaOO1

    . . . . . . . . . I haven't seen the episode yet, but ever since we saw Amy and Rory miniaturized inside a robot Amy, i've suspected that there is a Robot version of Hitler running around, and they at some point decide hey let's kill hitler.... robot hitler.... I can't wait to actually watch the episode.... Just under 26 hours to go...

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:19 p.m. CST

    Thanks doctortom

    by IchabodCrane1984

    Thanks for the wecome. I agree, impossible to rank the Docs really, a lot depends on the generation you parked your blue box in. For me it was 70s / early 80s. I spent a long hot summer constructing a K9 out of boxes and fairy liquid bottles etc whilst wearing a long wooly scarf on very warm days much to my parents dismay. I have been sitting thinking about more of my feelings on 'Let's Kill Hitler' having watched it earlier as per my previous post. And the great thing is the more I reflect the more I like it. Feel free to disagree after seeing it, it's not the greatest episode but it raises lots of topics for debate, and I love a good debate.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:23 p.m. CST

    SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by IchabodCrane1984

    Ok.....read on if you want a little piece of info on the episode.. it contains my fave use of the word 'spoilers' in the show so far! as spoken by one of the cast. And there is a gift given by the Doc that brought tears to my eyes....enjoy

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:24 p.m. CST

    Jon Pertwee was

    by Alonzo Mosely

    pretty fly for a white guy...

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 6:24 p.m. CST

    mavalcar

    by IchabodCrane1984

    it's a great theory......you will have to wait to see if you are right, I wont spoil it for you my friend!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 7:09 p.m. CST

    Sherlock tx date

    by Mister Vertue

    Hello! Another short visit, sleep is much needed right now. What a day! Regarding Sherlock, don't expect an (official) announcement before this series of Doctor Who finishes. I know it's frustrating, but it'll be well worth the wait. And whoever mentioned cinema screenings of Doctor Who, watch this space. It's definitely something that's being considered. And please don't confuse that with an actual movie version of the show, as I said earlier, it isn't in the pipeline and that situation is definitely *not* going to change in the next year or two. Matt, Karen and Arthur are already on the verge of burnout, and filming a feature-length movie would not help at all. We need to keep them fresh and healthy for future series, don't we? And finally, before I depart, I hope your situation is sorted out soon Merrick. Let us know if there's an adequate resolution please! Good luck to those of you who might be affected by the hurricane on the east coast of the States this weekend, I hope you all make it through unscathed. And with that, I'm off!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 7:11 p.m. CST

    notspock2, Captain Dobie

    by Merrick

    notspock2 - Nicely said.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 7:31 p.m. CST

    ichabod

    by Desmondo

    Did you spy Steven Moffat hanging round the Filmhouse this afternoon? I was hoping for a Q& A but alas no. Cinema was a great place to watch Who. It's hard to tell how much of the fondness for the ep was down to the good vibe in the room and whether it will be the same on small screen.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 8:10 p.m. CST

    dj_bollocks & Ichabod

    by veteran_of_mu

    It's taking a lot of willpower but I'm not reading Ichabod's spoiler. Thanks ever so much for prominently marking it as such. dj_bollocks you made me spurt coffee out my nose. Not a sensation I've had before. Thanks for that.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 8:24 p.m. CST

    The Great Doctor Who Upstaging Debate

    by veteran_of_mu

    A while back I posed the question about which doctor could upstage which. We've seen a number of multi-Doctor episodes and they give us a bit of a feeling for this. Obviously some incarnations are more difficult to access than others. But I'd like to see if we can get a consensus. Here I use the notation X > Y. Please understand that by this I do NOT mean X was a better doctor than Y, but merely that if you put them both in a scene together, most viewers will watch X more than Y. For a start, we've seen Troughton and Pertwee together often enough to know for a fact that Troughton > Pertwee. And even though he was somewhat disembodied I think it was plain that Hartnell > Troughton > Pertwee. And even with grey hair Troughton >> C. Baker. From their pre-Titanic collision I think it's obvious that Tennant > Davison. I don't know if I've missed any other multi-Doc encounters ... ? So to kick this off I propose the correct upstaging order is: Tom Baker > Ecclestone > Hartnell > Tennant > Troughton > Pertwee > McGann > Smith > Davison > McCoy > Colin Baker Does anyone doubt it?

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 8:45 p.m. CST

    re: upstaging

    by Hideo Kojima

    I think it's difficult to gauge the upstaging factor on an incarnation's own gravitas. One must look to the evidence that exists--Doctors that have been together. Tom Baker was never in a multi-Doctor episode (he had no interaction with the other actors, as it was just footage from Shada) so it's difficult to say how he would stand up in regards to confabulation with his past and future selves. McCoy, McGann, Eccleston and Smith have also not been in a multi-Doctor story (here's hoping it happens!) so I think it's hard to determine. I'd go Hartnell > Pertwee/Troughton > Davison > C.Baker

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 9:17 p.m. CST

    I live in DC, and I swear, if that hurricane deprives me of Doctor Who...

    by The Transformed Man

    Sure, there are more pressing concerns regarding this thing. But Doctor Who. Just saying.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 9:38 p.m. CST

    No one should have to miss Dr. Who *shakes fist at hurricane

    by Elsewhere

  • ...you will find us all quite pleasant here (it's not your average talkback- have a gander at the rules supplied by Merrick) and don't worry, none of us bite, although we do have a tendency to get a little passionate! You have come on board at a great time- this show only goes from strength to strength!! Don't hesitate to ask what you will or just throw your 2c out into the mix- there are no "silly" posts and noone will take the piss out of you for any idea or theory you may put forward (hell, some of ours are fucking out there!!!!). Enjoy your time here and don't be shy!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 9:52 p.m. CST

    To those affected by the hurricane- guys and gals STAY SAFE and healthy!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • ...to keep asking certain individuals who they are or to openly speculate as to who they **might** be, but put the shoe on the other foot and think just how tiring it must get!!! Let's PLEASE respect others right to privacy and just enjoy the posts and the company!!! It's not as if we don't have other things we need to discuss!!! My thanks for your consideraion with this. SJW.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 9:58 p.m. CST

    SHIBS!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE HERE!!!!! Where are the other degenerates???? ;))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:04 p.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - upstaging......

    by sam jacksons wig

    Here goes.... Tennant> Troughton > Eccleson> T Baker > Pertwee > Smith > Hartnell > Mc Coy> Mc Gann> C Baker > Davi(d)son (JUST for you Horn!!!!) In a scene with them all, eyes first and foremost planted on Tennant by most of the populace is my theory. He is a dab hand at upstaging just about anyone when he is in this role.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:07 p.m. CST

    perigee - circumcised AGAIN? Did they leave a bit the first time??? ;))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:17 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 1- Let's Kill Hitler (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Amy and Rory have waited a long time for news of their daughter. Too long. But when they summon the Doctor, the consequences change all their lives. The Tardis crashes in Berlin in the 1930s and they find themselves face to face not only with Hitler, but with a unique assassin from the distant future- and that's only the beginning. In the Fuhrers office at the heart of the third Reich, the Doctor is in for one of the biggest shocks of his very long life!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:21 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 2- Night Terrors (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Horror in Doctor Who comes in many forms and from many places, and a cry of distress reaches inside the Tardis from the darkest and scariest place in the Universe. Burt where is that exactly?? This story began with me and Mark Gatiss chatting on the set of Sherlock. "I'd like to do scary," he said. "Do you know where the scariest place in the Universe is?" I've known Mark for a while. If he decided to tell me where the scariest place in the Universe is, I'd better listen. "Where?" " A childs bedroom," he answered. Parents of Britain- sorry, and good luck!!

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:25 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 3- The Girl Who waited (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Time travel is more than just an element of Who, it's one of the main characters. I'm going to boast now and say that Tom McRaes script is mind blowing and heart breaking in every twist and turn. The Doctor has been in Rory and Amys life for a long while now- far longer than he ever intended. What if things were to go wrong? When they step from the Tardis into a srange white waiting room, they all are about to learn just how wrong time travel can go.....

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:26 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by The Transformed Man

    Good lord, that's kind of you. I might see if it gets posted on iTunes right after it airs if I do miss it. Then it'll just be a matter of finding a place to plug in my laptop and finding a wifi connection. But things might be alright in my neck of the woods. A local friend thinks they're hyping it because it's a slow news week. I mean, it is definitely making some peoples' lives interesting in a not good way, but it might fizzle out by the time it gets here.

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:29 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 4- The God Complex (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    The brief to brillant writer Toby Whitehouse was just this- a hotel; make a hotel scary. All those corrodors, all those identical rooms, those bleak and souless bars and waiting rooms, that tinkling muzak- surely all that was made for Doctor Who, where the scariest things of all come bleeding through the ordinary world. (note from SJW- sounds like the fucking Premier Inn I was forced to stay at one night on the way to a medical seminar back in 2004!!!)

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:33 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 5- Closing Time (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    The Lodger was a suprise hit of last years Doctor Who. It was a simple tale of a barmy time lord in a flatshare with a nice man called Craig. Events have moved on in Craigs life when the Doctor turn sup on his doorstep for a second time; there's a terrible alien threat, of course, but never mind that- dear God, there's a BABY!! (note from SJW- wouldn't it be fucking awesome if the kid was Melody Pond???)

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:36 p.m. CST

    Words of the Moff part 6- The Wedding of River Song (small spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    And here it is at last- the episode with all the answers, as the Doc journeys to lake Silencio for his date with destiny. While I was writing this, my wife asked me, "What happens?" and when I frowned and pondered my answer she hurredly added "In one sentence. Quite a short one." I thought a moment and then said, " The Doctor goes to his certain death- and it doesn't work out as well as expected....."

  • Aug. 26, 2011, 10:41 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by sam jacksons wig

    Oh, it's no bother at all!!! As long as you stay safe and healthy; that's all that really counts!! BBC I Player and BBC On Demand services will both have it up soon afterwards, and I'm sure Merrick will post a link to the on line episode as he generally does. Hurricanes; not had much experience with them. We were hit by the tail end of one years ago (I was a teenager at the time) and I just remember how bloody wet it was! We were all out playing Rugby (my friends and I) and I recall the wind knocking us on our arses. But we don't get many of them in the UK so we are quite lucky there.

  • ...on sale price is around £16.99. Although speaking from experience as one who purchased the first half discs, it might be better to wait until S6 as a whole is released in time for Christmas. At least you're guaranteed some decent fucking extras for the £50 you'll have to spunk!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:05 a.m. CST

    Being in deepest darkest Australia ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    I've adopted a questionably ethical approach to the new episodes. I buy a season pass from iTunes and then download by torrent from the pirate bay. I figure since apple have already got my money there's no particular reason I should not have the goods asap. I've paid for them, haven't I? But I have a feeling there would be a copyright lawyer or two who would not smile upon doing things this way. What do you think? As to cyclones, yes, please, all play very safe. That's not the kind of vortex a Whovian should have anything to do with.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:13 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Jeffrey Possberg

    Thank you for the non-spoiler teases! I love reading just this kind of information from Mr. Moffat. Damn that Silencio lake mystery is going to be a fun one to see fully revealed...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:12 a.m. CST

    Damn Hurricane!

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Keeping my fingers crossed that my power stays on long enough to see this ep! Wish me luck.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:20 a.m. CST

    Beware iTunes!

    by Antz

    The US iTunes store released the BTS special Monster Files: Cybermat as part of their season pass yesterday, which gives away a lot of the plot for an upcoming episode that has not aired yet.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:37 a.m. CST

    10 hours and 20 mins :)

    by shibleybc

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:37 a.m. CST

    SAMMY :) :) :)

    by shibleybc

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:40 a.m. CST

    Degenerates!?!?!?!?!!?!??!!?!?

    by shibleybc

    LOLOLOL If you mean the original docback crew then we are lurking as always in the background enjoying Dockbacks in a totally new and impressive way! WELCOME one and all to the best place to speculate, chew the cud and randomly spout bollocks :) and thats just the "degenerates" And still no confirmation that Amy's house is not a TARDIS ;) See what i did there! :) Hold Tight people, he is coming back very soon indeed! :) :) :)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:44 a.m. CST

    Sam, Sam, Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't know why you have to talk about this poor Doctor as you do: http://tinyurl.com/3dvehj2 ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:12 a.m. CST

    Episode titles count as spoilers too...

    by dj_bollocks

    #justsaying...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:23 a.m. CST

    dj_bollocks ......

    by sam jacksons wig

    .... the titles were published as they are common knowledge on the internet now and in various publications, and also have been discussed on previous DocBacks. It was also done to differentiate one post from another. Just sayin...;)) Take care!!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:27 a.m. CST

    Davison's real name is Moffett

    by veteran_of_mu

    Strange but true.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:34 a.m. CST

    Shibs- yes! Degenerates!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    My letter to Steven Moffat went off a while ago, and he sent me a reply.... "Dear Sam Jacksons Wig, I would just like to say how IMPRESSED I am at the way you've constantly defended yours, and others position regarding Amys house NOT being a Tardis. Having noticed the one who calls himself shibleybc, I must express my total disappointment that he has, to date, witheld monies now totalling $750,000,000 due to the mistake he made betting with his fellow DocBackers. Not only that, but spying on him from outside his house last Tuesday, I noticed he threw out a barely eaten toblerone; the fruit and nut kind of which I am aware you are very partial to. Such wanton wastefulness deserves a forfeight, and that is he now has to scale the walls of Frozens apartment building and paint her interior walls from OUTSIDE!!! Yours, Mr Sir The Moff." I mean, come on! How could you NOT believe that was from him???? SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:38 a.m. CST

    Horn.... that NEW guy has quite grown on me now....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....however, I would steer clear of playing "The overdose game" and am quite shocked he hasn't yet sold the rights to Hasbro.....

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:39 a.m. CST

    6 hours and 30 minutes to go.......

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:57 a.m. CST

    WooHoo!

    by Andy Buckle

    Ok. Just back from a week's fun in the sun. Travelled overnight and got no sleep. None. And Dr Who is back - Yes! Think I may have to record it and watch it again, but come the appointed hour, I'll be there. Can't wait!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Good afternoon, Gland!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Hope you had a great weeks holiday, obviously NOT in Britain, as both Britain and Sun are rarely heard in the same sentence!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:13 a.m. CST

    Purchasers of the season pass on US Itunes beware....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...they have put up a Monster file on there as a bonus which gives quite a bit of information on Closing Time, as well as a couple of scenes and a VERY spoilery synopsis on the episode (which I will NOT be posting here!!!) It does, however, sound ABSOLUTELY amazing!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:19 a.m. CST

    darthdevious-

    by sam jacksons wig

    Connect a bycicle light generator to your TV and get your neighbours to peddle!!! There is nothing more important than watching WHO today!!! :)) SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:43 a.m. CST

    I don't know what you do to Hitler...but you scare the HELL out of me...

    by sam jacksons wig

    Fantastic words courtesy of Chris Eccleson. Very poignant.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:56 a.m. CST

    DocBack "Let's Kill The Competition"

    by HornOrSilk

    Number one, and that's before the episode begins.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:02 a.m. CST

    The Impact of Who.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    A great interview appeared in the recent edition of Radio Times, from Karen Gillan and Matt Smith. They were challenged on the dynamics of making WHO and what the future holds for both of them. What follows is a few snippets of the interview: "It's a drastic transition in your life," Smith admits. "With me, it happened quickly because I was anonymousbefore and then I wasn't. Getting the tube is difficult, as is going to a festival. Often it's just too hot to wear a hood for four hours. It's not a problem; it's just how it is. Some people have to wear protective clothing at work. I get recognised in the street and do a few photographs. It's quite a nice thing, especially with children because rthey're interested in the Doctor. Not Matt Smith or any of that stuff. Generally people are nice about Doctor Who." Smith has his own action figure, his likeness is to be found on everything from pencil cases to billboards. "When I pass that sort of thing, I don't see me. You filter it out, kind of," says Smith. "Or you treat it as a product of work and therefore it's less remarkable. Make no mistake: the Doctor is the famous one!" Even so, does he ever feel his face is not his own? Does he ever have the urge to do something drastic to his appearance-shave his head, say? "My ears are too big," Smith grins. "I've just come back from America and I had really long hair, which I liked, but had to get it cut. Steven (Moffat) likes the quiff so the quiff stays. Basically, Moffat rules. And if I sand my chin down or shave my head, he can't take the piss in the same way!!" So no regrets at all that his life will never be the same? Smith, who so obviously relishes the role, guffaws incredulously. "No way!" Gillan, too, is incredibly grateful for the doors the WHO has opened- not least the one to playing model Jean Shrimpton in BBC4's upcoming biopic We'll Take Manhattan. "I've always been interested in the 60's so it seemed perfect," she says. "I didn';t want to rush into doing just anything after Docotr Who, but wanted to wait for something I felt passionate about. It was a three week shoot and it felt as if we were all mucking in on everything, like the antithesis of the massive machine that makes Docotr Who, which was nice in a way." As for Smith, he has at least one eye on the future. So does he have concerns about always being seen as an actor who played the Doctor? "When i finish I will be....." Smith checks himself. "Well, I don't know how old I'll be, but by the end of next year I'll be 29 so..." he pauses again. "When I'm 40, I won't be playing the same parts. If people are going to employ me on the basis that I once played the Doctor, that's up to them. If the part's right, the money's good, why not?"

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:03 a.m. CST

    Do you have the more 3D version of that pic?

    by tangcameo

    I have 3d glasses in my trenchcoat pocket; red-blue and light-dark. Y'never know when you might need them, or a screwdriver.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:05 a.m. CST

    SJW - Re Spoilers

    by dj_bollocks

    Respectfully, I didn't know the rest of the episode titles. I would have thought someone who has expressed a desire to be spoiler free in the past might have thought twice about it. But then I might be the only one... "The Wedding Of River Song" is a bit too big of a spoiler for me, that could have easily been in the comment box rather than the subject line. Said my piece, over it now.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:07 a.m. CST

    Guys!!! A BLOODY HUGE SPOILER IS CONTAINED within!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Don't know if it's out there yet....... Don't blame me if you've opened this...... ....episode 12 Closing Time. An image has hit the net showing the Doctor sitting on Craigs sofa with one of those patches over his left eye. He is also wearing the long green coat we've seen in the publicity shot, and he also wears the coat in tonights episode. SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    dj_bollocks about spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    Sam is correct. When something is made public, it is no longer a spoiler. And don't confuse titles as indicating much about the story. I mean, wait until you see what really happens in "Let's Kill Hitler." I can understand some people don't want to know the titles. But I think we can call it something other than spoiler when it is made public...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    Major spoiler

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor gives a spoiler to River today.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:12 a.m. CST

    The impact of Doctor Who

    by HornOrSilk

    Some live it right, some I feel, never were able to get beyond the impact. Tom Baker, more than any other, was most affected by it; he tried, but he really was the one most cursed by the recognition he got. Of course, if it weren't for the role, I doubt he would ever have made it big... so it's a catch-22.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:14 a.m. CST

    Sam - your spoiler

    by HornOrSilk

    Not too surprising. The real question is what the patch is all about. Of course, when we find out it is a Cyberman created implant which uploads the whole of River's diary in the brain, including updates from time changes, well, there you have it ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:23 a.m. CST

    dj_bollocks

    by sam jacksons wig

    If I have offended you in any way, then I apologise. I am aware of what you think of me from a previous post of yours, but I would hate for any bad blood to get in the way of what is without a doubt going to be a hugely entertaining and highly successful DocBack. I have always said that we will do and say things others don't agree with from time to time, but as long as there is respect anyone can move on. I do respect your opinions and your contributions here and would like to wipe the slate clean. What do you say, eh? let's proceed and just have fun with it! SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:25 a.m. CST

    Horn.... re: spoiler....

    by sam jacksons wig

    I nearly shit myself (a peculiar vulgarism, that one) when I clapped eyes upon it! I honestly felt as if it wasn't really important, but my views on the subject have now radically changed!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:27 a.m. CST

    4 hours and 40 minutes until Flight of the Valkyries...!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    Speculation....Spoiler?

    by Beamus

    Hi Folks, first post here. And that's my Dalek in the picture at the head of the story. Thanks for posting it Merrick! I don't know if a speculation can count as a spoiler, but I haven't seen anyone bring this up yet on any boards that I read. I find it interesting that in A Good Man Goes to War, you have the Cybermen and the Headless Monks. In watching it again yesterday on BBC America, I had missed a line by "Col. Runaway" where he mentions the Papal Mainframe when about to remove the hood of a monk. I think there is a link between the monks and the Cybermen. Cybermen need a person's head for conversion, so why not use the body for something else?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:37 a.m. CST

    SJW, Desmondo,caractacuspotts

    by IchabodCrane1984

    Thanks for wecoming a fellow traveller, it's great to feel part of this forum. Desmondo I didn't spot the Moff in the bar after the screening, I too was hoping for a Q & A after the episode was shown. I had been told that the original plan was for at least one of the main leads being there. I really hope it does come across as well on the small screen. I was really impressed at how good WHO looked on the cinema screen, I for one would pay each week to go and see it! Sam J WIg I have enjoyed reading your posts for a long time now and I can feel the passion in your writing, please continue. The world needs people who are passionate about anything so good work on that front. I read an interview with Matt Smith in one of todays newspapers and he was saying that he hope to reunite all the surviving Docs for the 50th anniversary. If it happened how about we see the SFX guys pull a 'Benjimin Button' and de-age Tom, Peter, Colin and Sylvester? or they could explain them aging as part of some evil masterplan by the Master? If that happened I think I may just have some kind of fit! I still remember the first time I say 5 Doctors.... Well not long to go now. Well done to the guy at the screening last night who dressed as Matt Smiths Doctor, complete with sonic, if you are reading this you looked uncannily like the Doc. Will stop waffling now! SPOILER BELOW!!!!!!! There are plenty of familiar faces from the past in tonights episode!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:53 a.m. CST

    Something we have all neglected

    by HornOrSilk

    The opening sequence of the season... what exactly was the Doctor up to and why was he under the lady's skirt?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:54 a.m. CST

    Gooood MORNING, My little Whoobies!

    by Perigee

    Or Afternoon, for the clan on the right side of the Atlantic!!!! I AM PUMPED!! My sump is also pumped, living a mere ten feet from the mighty non-Canton Delaware River at the foot of Philadelphia. Beautiful to have Children of Gallifrey together again - Sammy, lovely to see you again, my lil' Headless Monk... all the Old Guard and the New Guard I see swelling our ranks after I left last night... quite like the cut of ichabod's jib, Cap'n Dobie, welcome... I was thinking yesterday that it will be fun to have Mentor Merrick ooh-ing and ahh-ing simultaneously with us for a change - the Ringmaster has become just a fan for a day: Gooble Gobble - One Of Us. Hope he comes in and joins with the Awe Party that is soon to begin. Good friends, (currently) functioning electric, and the promise of more of the best television I've seen in more than a decade: I am a happy fella today.

  • Good to have you aboard. Pardon my Giddy - I'm feeling like a junkie on his way to the dealer this morning. ~Grin~ Your Dalek? Sweet! As in built him or bought him?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:08 a.m. CST

    You know something I would love with this new universe

    by HornOrSilk

    Daleks are changed, similar to Big Finish's Masters of War.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:10 a.m. CST

    Beamus- welcome! Awesome Dalek!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Used to play as a Dalek when I was a kiddie by putting a bin lid over my head and screaming "EXTERMINATE!" over and over again at my parents. Would have loved to have built something like that- do you still own it?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    The Doctor through time, in the impossible astronaut

    by V'Shael

    was always (IMO) the duplicate, enjoying the hell out of his own limited life. I suppose we'll see by the end but yes, I do think we'll be returning to that. By the by, I'm in London this weekend, and irony of ironies, will not be able to watch the episode live. Other committments... Oh well, Sky Plus to the rescue.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:17 a.m. CST

    v'shael

    by HornOrSilk

    No, it is "really the Doctor." But I think we will find there are two Doctors because of the new universe. That to me answers everything.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST

    Perigee-

    by sam jacksons wig

    If you stay by the banks long enough, you may be lucky and see the corpse of Bruce Springsteen float by!!! As for being pumped- oh yes! I am, however, NOT sumped. And it will be bloody nice to actually watch an episode of Who BEFORE Merrick does! ;))

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Sam -- it's not hard to watch Who before Merrick

    by HornOrSilk

    I mean, he can't even watch the Sensorites.. that's how far off he is ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Horn- yup, agree.

    by sam jacksons wig

    Same DNA. However, this Doc I believe will be from a redundant time line caused by the Big Bang 2.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:30 a.m. CST

    Sam -- I think it will be something more than that

    by HornOrSilk

    I think the two Doctors will combine and become the same Doctor, with memories from both time lines..

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:31 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig, hornorsilk

    by Merrick

    (bluster) (guffaw) Well... I... You.... Ummm... But... Hey!!!!!!! And I have SENSORITES *right here* I'll have you know... Degenerates... ;-)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    Ah, but Merrick

    by HornOrSilk

    I already have seen the Sensorites... But seriously, today is a good Who Day. Will be interesting to see what we have to talk about after the episode is over!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:35 a.m. CST

    Heyya, V'shael! I could see that...

    by Perigee

    Although it dredges up a lot of strange questions, that may or may not ought to be answered. Like his scene in "Sons of the Desert." This means it was left in deliberately through the editing process at MGM in 1933, unquestioned? As I had mentioned in a quick post last evening, does this mean that the universe unraveling we see coming up later was already starting in TIA? I watched "A Good Man" on Thursday, and I had this revelation ( or believed I did) that Moff is more than a little magician. He's very good at misdirection, slight of hand. He gets us to look elsewhere, while he slips something in from he other side. And then when he pulls the cloak off it, we're all delighted at getting hornswaggled while the clues were all around us. AGM was all slam-bang, and the River Reveal was Apparently big. But apparently not end-of-season Big. So I started to think about what he might be slipping in behind all the excitement. As I said yesterday: a Silurian Victorian Lesbian Detective? Delightful!!!!!! But soooo... Strange. Lactating Sontarian Nurse? Wonderful - I Loved the guy. But maybe a little cockeyed if you looked at it straight on. Yeah, yeah... comedy relief. But with the reality rip we know is coming - matched with the odd stuff from TIA - is there more to it? Has he been putting all these unlikely things in all season just waiting for us to go, (HA!! NO QUOTES!!) ~Hey, wait... Season 5 never had space pirates... There's something a little flakey going on here...~

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:35 a.m. CST

    Hi SJW!

    by Andy Buckle

    Had a great holiday, thanks. You're right about the British weather - though it's lovely and sunny where I am right now. Just awoken refreshed from a quick catnap. This means that new Who is now closer than ever! I'm already inordinately excited by this but being able to share that with yourself and all the other DocBackers is the icing on the cake. Aren't these DocBacks great? Hell yes!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:36 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Merrick

    *** I already have seen the Sensorites... *** Oh, yeah? We'll I'VE already seen 'Let's Kill Hitler!' Oh...wait...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:46 a.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by Klytus_I.m_Bored

    Where in DC, brotha? I'm in University Park, MD. Still inside the Beltway but not in DC propa. I, too, hope Irene fucks off long enough for me to see the new Who.

  • ..and I have copyrighted the use of the word "Degenerates" on any DocBack. I did it whilst I too was watching the Sensorites...... 7 years BEFORE I was born!!!! MMMWWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Enjoy Hitler today, my Captain!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:52 a.m. CST

    Horn- combine together??

    by sam jacksons wig

    You do mean spiritually or mentally? Surely not physically, my friend, as one of them is most definately toast!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:55 a.m. CST

    SJW, Beamus

    by Merrick

    ** get beamus to build you a Tardis and you can then go FORWARD in time and see all of the episodes...! ** Yeah, Beamus...I don't wish to impose but is there any chance of this? I don't have much money but I could...I dunno...buy you a few pizzas or something? And with a working TARDIS, I could have those pizzas to you before you get started - it all comes together rather well I think. Oh, and, welcome! SJW - a tip of the hat, sir.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10 a.m. CST

    Sam - remember how Time Lords have mind contact

    by HornOrSilk

    So it would be a mental combination; yes, one is toast, but not before giving up everything! That's again how I view it will turn out. This will prevent us from having a "nothing happened after all" reset.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST

    3 hours and 10 minutes until Downfall....

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:17 a.m. CST

    I've seen what happens after today's episode!

    by HornOrSilk

    Thanks to a BBC trailer!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:22 a.m. CST

    check out this sweet fan made "previously" trailer...

    by sam jacksons wig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW-beivcQv8&feature=related Not bad at all!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Well, I guess I know how I'm going to be spending all of today

    by maelstrom_ZERO

    I'm going to sit in front of my computer and repeatedly hit F5. *sigh*

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:09 a.m. CST

    2 hours to go until Charlie Chaplin needs to run for cover...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • ...and although it's a completely different concept, I wouldn't underestimate their popularity or drawing power. It will be interesting to see which has the greater share.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:54 a.m. CST

    Matt Smith asked about what he wears for series 6...

    by sam jacksons wig

    But can he reveal if his Stetson makes an appearance? "Yes, I can tell you the Stetson is back; I do love a good hat!" chuckles Matt. "The Doctor also has a new coat; a long green moleskin one. We always wanted the Doctor's outfit to evolve and the coat certainly kept me warm when filming during the winter. So maybe the coat is just that... a coat, with no other conotations. It will most certainly appear on a new action figure, don't you think??

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Looking forward to Who in 2012? Matt Smith is!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    "Steven Moffat told me about the first two episodes of next season yesterday and I nearly fell off my chair!" That is a direct quote! I know we have to get through the next 6 episodes and a Christmas special, but I am salivating at what we may get in store for us. If it is anything like this year then we will be in for something truly special indeed!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Moleskin coat

    by HornOrSilk

    It's a mole. It's been put into place so that someone can spy on the Doctor!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    Horn- and David Walliams plays a mole like alien....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...so maybe they've actually gone and skinned him!!! News of the World Headline : David Walliams all over Matt Smith on set of new Doctor Who!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST

    35 minutes until a facist dictator meets his demise...

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Hornorsilk - re: your Major Spoiler

    by DoctorTom

    Is that a euphamism?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    You guys will love this

    by IchabodCrane1984

    well hopefully! its a great episode! well I thinks so anyway...look forward to hearing your v iews afterwards...enjoy! and yes....titles are not always what they seem

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    7 hours 10 minutes to go (US time)

    by DoctorTom

    I imagine in about 10 minutes I'll have to go into 'radio silence' since if I don't I'll look at any posted spoilers.

  • Sam, you outdid yourself getting the reply from Sir the Moff. <br> And, I don't know if already having seen The Sensorites is exactly something that counts as having bragging rights about (having seen it on VHS and most likely on PBS broadcast at some point). Not the worst, but definitely far from the best.

  • is still 10x less likely to make you smash your television up while your brain liquifies and drips out of your ear, than "don't scare the hare". Still, it lacks the nuance and production values of "it's a knockout" This is the slowest day ever.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:57 p.m. CST

    You can never have enough Celebrity Wipeout...

    by Nerfee

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    10 minutes to go UK Who-vians!!! Only 10 fucking minutes!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    Notspock

    by DoctorTom

    I would figure that not being able to watch Doctor Who if you smash your television up would be the prime motivator against doing it, regardless of what was put on before it. <br> Of course, BBC America will have a saving grace there - we'll be having a repeat of A Good Man Goes To War before Let's Kill Hitler.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    Is it 6:10 over there for the start, I was thinking 6:00

    by DoctorTom

    I guess I have an extra 10 minutes before radio silence (or, Radio Silence Will Fall, in dedication to this season)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:02 p.m. CST

    Silence will fall

    by HornOrSilk

    But who will remember?

  • I's now been turned into a toilet for the celebrity big brother house. They needed another recepticle as the house is so full of fucking shit!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    nerfee_ - should that be you can never wipe out enough celebrities?? ;))

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:03 p.m. CST

    7 minutes

    by IchabodCrane1984

    hold on to your stetsons!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:04 p.m. CST

    5 minutes!!! That's it DocBackers!! See you on the flip side!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Silly random thought on eventual Doctor Who movie

    by DoctorTom

    I just realized how to get a big name star involved without having to cast him as the Doctor - if you could actually afford to get Johnny Depp, have him reprise his role as Hunter S Thompson in a historical episode. Heck, we could find out 'Bat Country' wasn't just something from his drug-induced mind. <br> (Yes, I've just recently seen the trailer for The Rum Diary and was reminded of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:05 p.m. CST

    3 and a half minutes.....

    by IchabodCrane1984

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:06 p.m. CST

    4 minutes!

    by notspock2

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:07 p.m. CST

    that's time travel- right there.

    by notspock2

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:08 p.m. CST

    1 minute!

    by IchabodCrane1984

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:09 p.m. CST

    5. 4. 3. 2. 1

    by notspock2

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:14 p.m. CST

    love the crop circle!

    by IchabodCrane1984

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Could we have 'Doctor Who' back, please?

    by buggerbugger

    I'm really fucking sick of its replacement, 'The Awesome River Song Show'.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Fuck's sake, not another... [SPOILER]

    by buggerbugger

    ..."He's dead, no he's not, she's dead, no she isn't, Amy's not real" trick from Moffat. Fuck this shit, tuning out from this episode, already lost interest in it.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Hello everyone!

    by gotilk

    It may seem like a long absence , but I've actually been lurking and posting as moffatbabies. That account was terminated by a noob with an inappropriately heavy and obviously burdensome banhammer after I made a comment about a recently deceased celebrity. (I said I'd rather help a junky kick heroin than help an "a-hole" change a tire in a snowstorm, which was significantly less offensive than other things being said, and was in my eyes actually something in said celeb's favour on sme level considering) But alas that is all done and I have found my old account's e-mail address, luckily through the recovery of an old computer I thought I'd never get working again. So, I have emerged again from my cave to join you wonderful DocBackers. I mean what was this person thinking? Banning the High Commander?? The fearless leader? The Goatlicker? Harumph. All is forgiven. Missed you all, after a brief period of wondering if I would ever come back at all. The pull is too strong and the Toblerone too rich to resist. Now I am bracing myself for new WHO after a couple of hours of catching up with an unforgivably DULL couple of hours of Torchwood. TORCHWOOD DULL? Yeah. wow, eh? I'm calling it TORCHWOOF now. Be back later my loves.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    The Dalek

    by Beamus

    While our UK friends are off watching the telly, here's the story on my Dalek. My father was in the USAF and we were stationed in the UK from 1964-68 (4 to 8 years old). I remember some odd episodes, but got hooked with the end of the first episode of the Dalek Invasion of Earth and got caught up in all the Dalekmania. I've always liked building models and one summer (in the 80's) I got a set of Dalek plans from the UK. It was the ultimate model kit, 1 to 1 scale and no prefab parts. It took several months to build and it was fun finding the parts. After it was finished, nobody in Louisiana knew what it was. The Tom Baker episodes hadn't aired in LA yet. I still have the Dalek in my garage, minus the arms, eye, and balls (they were removed for transport). Sad thing is, I don't think I could even fit in it now. ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    Edge of the hurricane is here

    by Kevin Bolinger

    And so it begins...to quote JMS... Just a little longer and I can see Who...wish me luck!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:53 p.m. CST

    Good luck!

    by LordMaker

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:58 p.m. CST

    I'ts over and ehhh by by gum....!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Good episode

    by donkey_lasher

    Gets a lot of the questions out of the way, and leaves the series to concentrate on stand alone episodes.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    I figured out Mels before seeing it

    by HornOrSilk

    But now I am glad to know my thought was right. I should have mentioned it.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    did you like it Sam?

    by IchabodCrane1984

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    JESUS that blew me away

    by Seph_J

    Steven Moffat, wherever you are mate... that was very, very nicely done. Thank you.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    told you it was good

    by IchabodCrane1984

    gets even better on second viewing

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    That was just odd

    by theGoldbergV

    Kind of bitty, the plot was all over the place, it was just a bit weird and messy. And now I'm really confused as to how this whole thing fits together, so God knows how a kid (presumably still the taget audience) would follow it. Have loved the Moffat era Who so far but this one just left me cold.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:06 p.m. CST

    What happened to Hitler?

    by LordMaker

    Does this establish interracial regeneration?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS SERIOUSLY SPOILERS

    by notspock2

    I'm not 100% on River using all her regenerations to save the Doctor, and the Mel= Melody= River thing was signposted a mile off, however I was having waaaaay too much fun to care.... Good work to all involved.. next week seems a long way away now....

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    @ lordmaker RE: Hitler

    by s0l

    He eventually comes out of the closet... ^_~

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    I still think...

    by Fuck The Napkin

    ...the 'good man' is Rory, even with this new layer of implication it's the Doctor. Not entirely convinced about Let's Kill Hitler on its own but wicked to have Who back and I can't wait for the rest. :)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:11 p.m. CST

    There's only been one good episode all year.

    by rosasaks

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:12 p.m. CST

    *SPOILERS* RE: next time we see River...

    by Seph_J

    will be at the singing towers? When the Doctor gets a haircut and a new suit. And cries. ?????

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST

    That was a lot of fun.

    by Gabba-UK

    A bit odd however. Still fun.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Congratulations, it's a Milf! (Spoiler)

    by Nerfee

    That was pretty good, and the dialogue wasn't too hyperbolic. The intro of Mels as having been there all along was a little grating, though. Maybe it's time for a Dogme Doctor, with certain rules about Reset Buttons, Deus Ex Machina, and the Pixies of Narrative Convenience.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Jump the Shark *spoilers*

    by kusanagiguy

    When they introduced Mel I was about to cry fail. Reconditioning the past to add in an important character that we don't know nearly pissed me off. Then we got the flashback sequence and while I wasnt sold I could put up with it Then she regenerated and all was forgiven brilliant episode, brilliant slight of hand that title was misleading in a good way They hyped the mid season finale twist and I wasnt impressed best moments this season have to be the revelation that amy was a ganger and mels as river. Fab

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:25 p.m. CST

    To clarify,

    by Nerfee

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:27 p.m. CST

    Episode should have been called *SPOILER*

    by Fuck The Napkin

    Let's Lock Hitler In A Cupboard

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:30 p.m. CST

    I just don't understand why this season is so bad...

    by photoboy

    The previous season was almost perfect from start to finish (excluding the James Corden episode), yet this year the stories are just boring or annoying. And there's too much of the Doctor overacting like Jim Carrey, too many smug moments where the writer is clearly is in love with his own dialogue, too many domestics and too much reliance on silliness. Can't we just go back to the Doctor and Amy landing in strange places and being chased by monsters? That said, I did like the miniature people in a robot body, it's a shame it wasn't a more central idea to the story.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST

    so... was it revealed WHY the *spoilers*

    by Seph_J

    'Justice' guys referred to River as a bigger war criminal than Hitler??

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST

    Cursed Enter Button!

    by Nerfee

    ...Anyway, It's not that i'm saying the way Mels was introduced wasn't a perfectly valid creative choice. I just prefer it when you can say to your self as a viewer, 'Hey, I had all the info and the writer still got one over on me'.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:34 p.m. CST

    peanutbutterslut

    by Seph_J

    perhaps if having an open mind about 'buttsex' isn't your thing, then neither is having an open mind about good sci-fi? And on the 'virginback' thing, might I remind you that you're here too. And hello! to Sam J, DocTom et al. Hoped you enjoyed that as much as I did!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    seph_j

    by HornOrSilk

    There are more twists and things to be explained this season. I mean, with the last title being what it is, we can be assured it won't turn out as expected!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:39 p.m. CST

    Torchwood isn't representative of Doctor Who

    by HornOrSilk

    Only S3 and a few episodes from the first two seasons count in my Doctor Who canon. The rest are Jack's nightmares.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:39 p.m. CST

    _nerfee_

    by notspock2

    Gold Star for "The Pixies of Narrative Convenience" ;-)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:39 p.m. CST

    That was a damned good episode!

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Haven't been around these Docbacks for a while, due to offline stuff but thought I'd pop my head in to praise the episode. Much more satisfying than "A Good Man Goes To War". I pretty much enjoyed it from start to finish. Well done to Mr Moff and everyone involved.

  • Don't know what that means, but, I'll find out in about 40 minutes, (When I get to watch it.). And, as always, some enjoyed it, some did not, but, guess what, I already know I will enjoy watching it. A side note, our Fearless Leader is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Well, not "Our" our, but, hey, he knows, I know, Frozen01 knows, shibleybc knows, and, others know what I mean.)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:41 p.m. CST

    Well...

    by Andy Buckle

    That was completely bat's-arse mental. And I really enjoyed it. Who is back, folks!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Hello all!

    by Pandas

    I've been hanging around the Docback for many a moon and thought it was about time I joined in. Really glad the mid season break is over and with a really enjoyable episode too.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Very impressive

    by Peter

    This episode delivered brilliantly. As a forty-something man I very much enjoy Alex Kingston's performance anyway (!). And as a Dr Who fan, I enjoy watching the show firing away on all cylinders; tying up plot points, answering questions, posing new ones and all with a twinkle in it's (almost) 50 year-old eye. Steven Moffat's 'Who' is a reaction to the epic pomposity of the previous era, weaving wonderful tales with a clever narrative eye. So many shows, these days, deliver enigmatic plots and fail to live up to their early promise, but 'Who' is different - it's constantly inventive and joyful. I've heard Mr Moffat refer to the first season as thematically a fairytale and the second as a ghost house. However, his take on the Doctor is, at heart, a comedy - screwball farce with dialogue that reminds me greatly of the rapid-fire comedy films of the 1930s and 40s, as interpreted by Douglas Adams. I can see Cary Grant and Katherine Hepburn delivering Moffat's dialogue brilliantly. Very enjoyable. Can't wait for next week - and that's about all you can ask for in a TV programme.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 2:50 p.m. CST

    petermck

    by notspock2

    RE: screwball dialogue.. If you like that, and you haven't seen it yet, check out "Press gang." It's still possibly the best children's show of all time. It's Moonlighting with teenagers, and it needs a repeat. It's kind of painful to see just how long Moffat's dialogue has been whip smart.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Thanks for the gold star, Notspock2.

    by Nerfee

    whatever devices the Moff may employ, I'm always gonna watch, though. I think the last season and a half have been excellent. Next week looks like a standalone type ep with no major series story arc stuff. Excellent. Daniel Mays is brilliant. He was the best thing in Ashes to Ashes, and totally wasted in that planet-colonising-with-Hermione-Norris-guff that crapped all over my telly a few months ago.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:08 p.m. CST

    That was .......

    by siddelicious

    brilliant! Absolute barnstormer of an episode. U.S. you are in for a treat.

  • It was just a crummy show zallumsayin.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    In light of the hurricane situation

    by The Transformed Man

    and the timing of tonight's premiere, I realized that today presents an unusual number of opportunities for Oncoming Storm jokes that not many people I know in real life will comprehend.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:20 p.m. CST

    pets spill titler! ( spoilers )

    by Rob

    I thought they did a good job of being ambitious with the story arc but also explaining the key points so that more casual viewers would still be entertained. It felt good to have some answers and yet still leave the shadow of Lake Silencio to hang over the doctor for now. I was worried about the Hitler/WWII setting and so was relieved when this turned out to be window dressing rather than the point of the story.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:22 p.m. CST

    ichabodcrane1984 - did I like it??? Well.... **SPOILERS**

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... There were moments of excellence. The Tesselecta was used to amazing effect throughout the episode. The concept, although not new, was executed fantastically, and gave me the biggest laughs of the episode- "You will experience a tingling sensation and then death...." had me belly-laughing at the dryness of the delivery. Also, the fact that it actually transformed into different individuals to achieve its end was cool. I would have been a little pissed off with a robot-thing that just zapped people into oblivia. The notion of giving war criminals "hell" was quite rough for the younger audience when the threat was carried out. Yes, you could sense the torment, and it worked. The acting- (I will get to River Song later) mainly terrific. Smith was as good as he has ever been ("Give me someone in the Universe I haven't screwed up yet!") in the short time we've spent with him. Going from anger to sorrow to bemusement as his legs actually give out on him, he can play the Doc across all formats. For Smith- job done. he arrived last season. He cemented his iconography this season. The stars though were Gillan and Darvill, who's sense of comic timing was a joy to behold. The "Big Ginge" did drama and I didn't want to hurl the remote at the screen!! She also convinced playing both the Tesselecta and herself; one blank faced and automotive whilst the other raging with emotion. Darvill got the best comic moments, and delivered with aplomb. Yes, they, for the first time (for me anyway) became front and center. And I liked. Now for the not so good....... I can get over the Hitler MacGuffin, infact in truth I didn't really think it would have much to do with the story at all. How we got the title from a throw-away line by the Mels character did strain my belief somewhat. (even returning to the snippet from school days, were we really to believe that she would have used this and remembered even as a reason to pretend to evade the cops???) And River Song. Or Melody Pond. Or Mels.... telegraphed a mile away, I'm afraid, when there was a possibility to do so much more with it. If Mr Sir The Moff had the intention of letting us know with seemingly great ease about that twist, then great! But now, I feel we need to bid adieu to the River Song character. Kingston played the erm "new and improved" version with relish and chewed the scenery, and there were some nice touches (we finally get to see how she got her diary, which I have always wondered- THANK YOU Moff, !!!) such as the Mrs Robinson under the leg shot as a tie in to TIA, but I am struggling to maintain my enthusiasm when she enters the screen. So, over all, yes, I enjoyed it very much and it was a great kick off point from which to launch the second half of the series.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:25 p.m. CST

    klytus_i.m_bored

    by The Transformed Man

    Bethesda. One Metro stop outside.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:26 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Just because we have been told many things about River doesn't mean she is through. There is much more there. It's like saying after the War Games, well, Doctor Who is over. We know who he is now. The thing is to change how her story is treated. I think it can be done.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:27 p.m. CST

    A question about the episode... (spoilers)

    by Desmondo

    I may have missed something but why did the Doctor appear in his 'wedding outfit'? Was some time-travel stuff going on? I assumed it was because Moffat needed the Doctor to have a sonic cane so he could communicate with Amy with the screwdriver. It just seemed odd as it was so evocative of the finale last season, and seemed an unnecessary costume change.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    desmondo

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it will be relevant at the end of the season.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    desmondo..

    by steverogers5

    Because if you're going to die, best to go out in your Sunday best! ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    ichabodcrane1984, beamus

    by The Transformed Man

    Welcome! There's always room for one more in our TARDIS.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:36 p.m. CST

    pandas-r-us- welcome!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    CBTML!!!!! YOU BAAAAAAAAD BOY!!! Where you been???

    by sam jacksons wig

    Man, it's so good to have you back here!!! Yeah, the episode was briliant in the main!! I hope you are well and things are sorted out!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    BTW, DC Folk, until last August

    by HornOrSilk

    I lived in Silver Spring, MD... at the Blairs.. so was great access to the Metro and the Beltway

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:39 p.m. CST

    Theory-Spoilers..

    by steverogers5

    Hmm.. The thing about River giving up all her regenerations to cure the Doctor.. Does anyone think that this might be a neat way to have seripticiously extended the life of the Doctor and by conseqeunce the show as well? (It certainly seemed like a lot of sacrifice on her part to save the life of the Doctor this time around..) What I mean is, could he now maybe have gained all her unused regenerations as well? I mean if we assume for talkings sake that she's had three, then that could be giving him about another 10! Certainly that would comfortably last to whenever the show naturally ends. (As it probably must do some day I suppose..)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:41 p.m. CST

    Regenerations

    by HornOrSilk

    Has been dealt with in Sarah Jane Adventures. Also, I think we are in for a surprise about them, anyway.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:42 p.m. CST

    SJW

    by Merrick

    No problem.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:44 p.m. CST

    The Moff is really diverting your attention

    by HornOrSilk

    Getting so used to the same thing happening again and again. There is a reason for it, I am sure :)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:50 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk-That line in SJA..

    by steverogers5

    I kinda took that as just a humorous aside, and not meant to be taken literally. And a later interview I read with RTD seemed to confirm that that was the spirit it was intended to convey.. Which was a bit of a relief, since it seemed just a tad too silly to be taken seriously (Unless of course you subscribe to the notion that the Doctor has somehow gained all these new multitudes of potential regenerations as some sort of side effect from there not being much of the way in time lords to use them in this universe anymore..)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:50 p.m. CST

    Horn- I do indeed hope so.... (spoilers...)

    by sam jacksons wig

    .... I just think my friend that we need to have a bit of a break from her. Whereas the Doctor can change and is the character most central to the story (as SJW points out the ever-so-fucking-obvious!!) River is expendable. And I know deep down that we will have her around until the 50th, or maybe until Moff is done. To do that they need to minimise her appearances drastically or I fear overkill will make some of us switch off. I got through this episode with her primarily because she was different than before, but quickly became (how can I put it?) Al Pacino-esque.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:53 p.m. CST

    Steve

    by HornOrSilk

    There seems to be an undercurrent that regenerations were limited by law; we don't know how many they could have if not limited. Nonetheless, there are all kinds of ways the Doctor could extend them without River.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:54 p.m. CST

    On River Song....

    by Peter

    SJW, what turns you off? I think Alex Kingston is doing a great turn. I'd personally rather she stuck around than Amy, although I have nothing against a fellow Scot, of course.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:55 p.m. CST

    Sam -- on River

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, I do hope she will be limited for a bit then come back as a big surprise - except, of course, for what she has left to do with this season. I think one episode next season to keep her around, and make it one which has her doing something different than what we are used to.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:55 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by The Transformed Man

    I nearly moved to Silver Spring recently. But it didn't happen. It's a neat area, for sure. I met Tommy Wiseau at the AFI there.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:56 p.m. CST

    Possible spoilers for anyone who hasn't watched yet

    by Andrew Greening

    Great episode a nice answer to the stories about River Song, I really do think that there will be more explanation to come. First time poster but long time watcher I have been here since Yoko was still mentioned as an episode on Buffy. There has been too much left unmentioned about the child and if I was Amy I would not want to let my child grow up without mommy. I am betting with the recent resurgence in DW BluRay sales the good old BBC are kicking themselves for recording over all of those Hartnell stories Love reading all of your posts and I would love to stay if you guys want me

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:57 p.m. CST

    East Coast

    by Andrew Greening

    I hope you are all okay over in the good old US of A, with this nasty bit of rain and wind that you guys are having

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Sarah Jane Adventures

    by Andrew Greening

    Hornorsilk Can you explain more about the regenerations as I only ever watched the first episode of SJA Cheer

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4 p.m. CST

    doctorandy

    by The Transformed Man

    One of us! One of us!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:01 p.m. CST

    Doctorandy

    by HornOrSilk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Regenerations.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    It was Rassilon who gave the time lords a finite number of regenerations, and I am sure that as time can be re-written, so can those kind of laws. Who has never been really known for its adherence to continuity.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST

    Question (Spoiler)

    by TheFerretLives

    Great episode, although Mels annoyed me until she regenerated. And it is about Mels that I have a question - how come she aged at the normal rate of a human child alongside Amy and Rory? I know she, as River, said something about changing her age just after she regenerated so could she control her ageing or was it the Silence and Mdme Kevorkian do this to her so she could be a kind of Trojan Horse? F

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Alex Kingston

    by Andrew Greening

    Just a note Rewatched Moll Flanders the other night mmmmnnnnn Watching ER on Sky Atlantic wow watching her again even 12 or 13 years ago she is still hot and even at 48 I would happily see more of her

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:05 p.m. CST

    Rory as Astronaut theory

    by HornOrSilk

    "Impossible" once again.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:12 p.m. CST

    Two spoiler-y questions

    by david

    Loved it but these two things have been bugging me. Any suggestions....? 1 - Why was River so full of beans after regeneration? I was loooking forward to someone else getting to do the whole "stumbling around for an episode" routine that only new Doctors ever get to do. 2 - Mels could have just shot him in the field couldn't she? Why did her training only kick in after regeneration? Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed it (although Moffat might be drifting toward the Big Plot Syndrome rocks. How often is he going to kill Smith?)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Moffat must have something clever planned

    by Desmondo

    For dealing with the Doctors death. He is going out of his way to make sure we know it's is permanent and is a 'fixed point' and won't be explained away by saying 'time can be rewritten'. Its like he is teasing us- 'you think it's going to be a lame copout - just you wait'. I still can't see how it won't be a contrived get out, but I'm intrigued.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    SJW, Rassilon

    by The Transformed Man

    He was kind of a dick anyway.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Meet The Doctor

    by Andrew Greening

    do you want a jelly baby

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:15 p.m. CST

    petermck- In a quick word - overkill.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    I fear that the River Song character will become stale from over use. Kingston is clearly having a blast in the role, and no doubt is playing her part well. She is certainly sexy and very pleasing on the eye for a mature lady! If River were limited to appearances (and I agree that she HAS to have more to do with S6 as it is primarily about her dynamic with her parents as well as the Doc.) now and then, the character would stay fresh and have some lasting appeal. As of now, I will give her to the end of the series as I agree we have alot to tie up. But after that, IMHO needs to be used sparingly. Take care!! SJW.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:16 p.m. CST

    asiandawn

    by HornOrSilk

    It's been long established, the Doctor doesn't handle regeneration well (compared to other Time Lords).

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:18 p.m. CST

    And we learn why the Doctor marries River

    by HornOrSilk

    He promised.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:18 p.m. CST

    Absolutely barmy and brilliant all in one.

    by ComicGuru

    Very funny incredibly dense and superbly made. Brilliant in every sense of the word. Go Doctor, Go.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman - hahahahaha!!! Agree my friend!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST

    Thanks SJW!

    by steverogers5

    It did seem like the line was drawing attention to itself a bit. If nothing else though, at least this development explains the necessity and finality of Rivers 'death' in the Silence in the Library two parter. i.e She couldn't just regenerate out of it. So as a fellow Scott, I've got to tip my hat to Mr Moffat. Very smart guy, and I hope he stays with the show for a VERY long time! Though I've known he was quite a cunning gentleman for a while now ever since I realised a year or two back that giving River the 'Spoilers' catchprase has the secondary benefit of making actual spoilers for her scenes that bit much more difficult to track down on the Internet. I mean think about it. Every time someone would try to do a search with the words..'River Song' and 'Spoilers' what would they get? Just about every flipping scene she appears in! Good way to hide actual spoilers through a bit of information overload! So yeah, clever man that Mr Moffat is. Long may he continue. I kind of wish we could give him some regenerations, so that he could stay with the show forever! ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST

    hornosilk

    by david

    Ah - I see. A gap in my Who-knowledge. Just out of interest, when did they explain that? I would love it if that went all the way back to Troughton or Pertwee or something almost as old.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    asiandawn

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, there is Romana's regeneration...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    SJW, on River Song

    by The Transformed Man

    I wouldn't mind seeing her around a little long-term. But I understand your concern. Given the way she spoke of their times together in "Forest of the Dead", it sounded like they spent quite a bit of time running around together. I'd even be okay with her being a full-time companion. Temporarily. Maybe for a series (I guess she already is around approximately 1/3 or 1/2 of a series.). And yeah, her appearances do pack more of a punch when they're scattered. But I don't want to find that they had like seven adventures together then went to the library.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    meet the doctor Redux

    by Andrew Greening

    There was a whole comment about asking if anyone has ever met the doctor in any incarnation but the gremlins in this site seem to be here again I met Tom baker in full doctor out fit scarf et al, he even gave me a jelly baby at the Coop in Birmingham, for those of you going where? The coop in Birmingham was a five floor department store where the pavilions mall now stands Anyone else met a Doctor

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    I was thinking about Romana's regeneration just last night.

    by The Transformed Man

    Asking myself if I was given a magic wand and permission to fix it, would I do it? I don't think I could. As absurd as it is, like someone pointed out earlier (Sam, I believe?), this show has classically been rather reckless with its own continuity. And I don't think I'd have it any other way.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Doctorandy

    by HornOrSilk

    I've met Jon, Peter, Colin, and Sly And of course, many companions, including William Russell and Carole Anne Ford...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Brilliant episode *spoilers*

    by clupula

    Sitting in Brooklyn, waiting for the storm to get bad and loving that episode. I was so happy to see Rose, Martha, and Donna show up for a few seconds. I was hoping, though, that Mel would regenerate into another actress before regenerating into Alex Kingston. I wish we had gotten to see a little bit more of her pre-River days. Otherwise, absolutely brilliant. I don't see how anyone cannot love this season. I still lean a little more towards Tennant as my favorite Doctor, but this is, by far, my favorite season.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:28 p.m. CST

    I've never met a Doctor.

    by The Transformed Man

    But I saw on the trivia subtitles on one of the DVDs that when children recognized Tom Baker in public, he tended to go all wild-eyed and say something like "Hey... I know you! I saw you watching Doctor Who on television!"

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:29 p.m. CST

    hornosilk

    by david

    And, thinking about it, John Simm was lively as soon as he arrived on the scene as The Master wasn't he... I guess the Doc is a huge puss. I'd love to see someone give him the gears about that as a little aside one day.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Billie piper lives!

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    And Martha and Donna Noble as well! Nice touch! I'd love to see an episode where Rose's duplicate Doctor has died and she searches for the original Doc again only to find he's regenerated into the eleventh incarnation, be interesting to see the dynamic and change of relationship between the two. These last 6 episodes all look superb save for the one with David Walliams as that mole creature, looks quite awful ( sub RTD stuff) the rest looks superb though.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Hornorsilk

    by Andrew Greening

    Where did you meet these icons,sir

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:33 p.m. CST

    One plot point in this episode bugged me

    by Desmondo

    When Amelia/Voice Interface tells the doctor 'Regeneration Disabled'. Again maybe I missed it but did they explain *why* precisely the Doctor couldnt regenerate? If you want to threaten the character with death I think you need to do better than a throwaway line stating he can't do it. Seems a little unfair to rewrite rules like that on a whim.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:35 p.m. CST

    Time Lord Victorious

    by Kevin Bolinger

    He said it himself, he isnt the survivor of the time war, he is the winner, the Laws of Rassilon no longer appl;y, hence I feel the Doctor can regenerate as many times as he needs, just my two cents..

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:35 p.m. CST

    candy ass monkey suit

    by HornOrSilk

    Even more indication that Donna _could_ return, imo. SM is not done with the past.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:36 p.m. CST

    doctorandy

    by HornOrSilk

    Back in the early 90s (91, 92, 93) I went to four conventions, including Visions 93

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:38 p.m. CST

    desmondo

    by HornOrSilk

    I suspect that plot point connects to Lake Silencio and what happened to the Doctor since e7.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST

    River's line about age

    by HornOrSilk

    Also allows for her Alex to be younger while playing an older River...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:43 p.m. CST

    THREE HOURS AND SEVENTEEN MINUTES

    by The Transformed Man

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:45 p.m. CST

    One of my friends met Pertwee at a US convention in the 80's.

    by The Transformed Man

    Funny thing, he never was even all that into the show. But he's got pictures with Pertwee somewhere.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:48 p.m. CST

    doctorandy-Meeting Doctors..and their lovely companions..

    by steverogers5

    I too, as a kid, met Tom in the full outfit. (Scarf and all..) I wonder if he did that a lot? It was in the old R.S McColl's newsagent in my home time of East Kilbride up in Scotland, back when I was about 5 years old! I can remember sitting on his knee (like you do with Santa Claus..) and asking him where his Tardis was! Which he laughed at, and after telling me it was parked in the old multi-story car park, gave me a Jelly Baby! And a few years back I managed to get a signed photo autograph from Peter Davison at the collectormania in Glasgow's Braehead arena. And he must have enjoyed his visit, because a couple of years ago when I went to the same event, to meet Nicholas Brendon..(Xander in Buffy) when I was sitting in the arena's seats waiting for Nicholas's talk, as it turned out Peter Davison and Louise Jameson (Leela) were on stage first. So that was a fun day!! (Funniest moment. When a girl there asks Louise where she'd bought the shoes she was wearing! Peter's jokey incredulous reaction to being THAT that they wanted to ask her about was very funny indeed..) P.S I also met Nicola Bryant (Peri) in the same place a year later. And OMG she is just as gorgeous now as she was in the series twenty odd years ago. She's barely aged a day! Lovely gal too. As she seemed more interested in collecting for charity at her table than actually taking money for autographs. Man whichever guy is with her, has all the luck in the world! (Mr Moffat, if you ever read this, get her on the show!! It would be great to see Peri in some form again!)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:49 p.m. CST

    Interesting hornor

    by Desmondo

    You may be right. I didn't immediately think of it as a significant thing to the larger plot but Moffat has got a track record.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:52 p.m. CST

    Wow...

    by gotilk

    That was a mind bender. Loved it. Loved it. Loved it! I guess we've come full circle. Now the question is, which circle and which time around it? Re-watch time.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:52 p.m. CST

    The eyepatch...

    by DrMeyer

    SJW, the eyepatch The Doctor's wearing is a jeweler's loupe. I have one just like it.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:54 p.m. CST

    and on TorchWoof

    by gotilk

    episode 7 was an odd brief return to form somehow. Here's hoping it keeps the momentum and remains watchable. The first 6 episodes, I was barely able to get through the experience and was hit with an overwhelming sadness over the "MEH-ness" of the whole shebang. I mean how can you take a character like Cap Jack and make him dull? With episode 7 we get him back, just not sure for how long. *fingers crossed*

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST

    Oh, and River's regenerations

    by HornOrSilk

    "Apparently" she didn't use them all at once. She had used some before. We can still see a younger River in the show... a surprise River like the Master...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    I might get to watch this week's TORCHWOOD as an appetizer...

    by The Transformed Man

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Nicola Bryant is at the top of my list of companions I'd like to meet.

    by The Transformed Man

    Or as Batmanuel might say "companions I'd like to save", if you get my meaning. That lady is still drop dead gorgeous.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:03 p.m. CST

    desmondo

    by HornOrSilk

    The thing is, the Doctor didn't seem surprised to know about the regeneration being turned off. That tells me he knows something is up and he is setting up his own trap.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:03 p.m. CST

    The Question

    by HornOrSilk

    Douglas Adams nods, right?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:03 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by gotilk

    Thanks for the welcome back. Great to see you, and everyone. Yes, the death of Moffatbabies was sad, but the regeneration was a success. Bones feel a bit wonky, and I'm not sure about the mustache, but the beanie is a nice touch.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:04 p.m. CST

    Rule Number One

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor lies...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:04 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by gotilk

    Batmanuel reference. NICE!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:06 p.m. CST

    I like beanies.

    by gotilk

    Beanies are cool.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:08 p.m. CST

    asiandawn-The Docto's regenerations..

    by steverogers5

    Maybe the Doctor has such a hard time regenerating because his various incarnations are so enjoying their wacky adventures that they don't want to go?.. Whereas for other time lords, it's more 'oh just another regeneration'..Like their lives would be so similar in experience that there might not be much difference character wise in their different incarnations.. Whereas all the doctors obviously have VERY different experiences and adventures.. Or of course maybe it just the fact that he effectively lives inside a Tardis. Maybe constant exposure to the energies of a malfunctioning Tardis hasn't been all that great for his health over the years! LOL!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:12 p.m. CST

    Apropos of Nada..

    by Nerfee

    I'm lovin this Bill Hicks stuff on BBC4 tonight.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:15 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman..

    by steverogers5

    QFT man! The lady does not disappoint! Twas a thrill meeting her I can tell you that. And getting her to autograph one of the Peter Davison photos I'd had him sign..(From Caves of Androzani) was just the icing on the cake. There's a part of me that would love to meet Sarah Sutton as well. As Nyssa was probably the first onscreen crush I ever had. But I'm afraid that I might be setting myelf up for a disappointment as I'd be half expecting to see her in that little purple velvety outfit that she rocked so hard during her tenure on the show! Ahh the memories.. ;)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:17 p.m. CST

    gotilk, nice to see you back! And also you, CBTML!

    by DoctorTom

    I'm glad you're back to being able to post again.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:19 p.m. CST

    Wow, wonderful episode!

    by DoctorTom

    A copy of the episode seemed to have, er, fallen off the back of a truck right by where I live (yeah, that's it, that's the ticket!) and I didn't have to wait after all for the BBC America broadcast. <br> I'll end up watching it again, though, when BBCA shows it.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:22 p.m. CST

    steverodgers5

    by The Transformed Man

    Yeah, Sarah Sutton is definitely a looker too. And she had the whole brain thing going for her, which is hot. If only she would wear that purple velvety outfit now!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:23 p.m. CST

    gotilk

    by The Transformed Man

    In fact, I saved her three times in one night, if you get my meaning.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Now, for some questions/speculations (SPOILERS)

    by DoctorTom

    Now, we have the Tesselecta being empowered (judicially, at least) by the Order of the Silence. A movement, not a race. This raises the question - what race are they? Or were they multiple races that have taken this form for some reason? <br> More importantly, River Song is supposed to be an intergalactic war criminal for the killing of the Doctor? The one that it seemed like the Silence might be trying to set up? But the Silence want her arrested for it? This does kind of prop up that it's a young River in the astronaut suit, since they had his death as being a fixed point in space and time at Lake Silencio. Did the Silent who was there not try to stop it because it was already a fixed point in space and time? Did the Silent in the White House tell Amy to tell the Doctor what he must know and what he must not know in order to give him foreknowledge of his death, so that he might find a way around it despite it being a fixed point? <br> And, the Church of the Question - is this the same Church we see in A Good Man Goes to War? If they're looking for the Question that will lead to the end of the Universe, then it would actually explain why they had an Omega symbol worked in (which would put a few more nails in the Coffin of Omega and keep him from showing up). As for bringing the Silence and ending the universe, I'm wondering if it's related to the Bible. In the Beginning was the Word. Maybe the question is What Was There Before the Beginning? Presumably before the Word there was Silence.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:37 p.m. CST

    River Song - missed opportunity

    by supertoyslast

    As 'Silence In The Library' was River's last meeting with the Doctor and the Doctor's last meeting with her, I was looking forward to a bittersweet episode where the Doctor meets her and she doesn't recognise him because it's the first time she's met him. But since she's been bred from birth to be a weapon against the Doctor, this is no longer an option. I agree with SJW about River. I have been finding the character increasingly tiresome, whose main function seems to be to issue warnings about 'Spoilers!' At least this time she had something different to do and did not know what 'spoilers' were. I hope that she will be used sparingly in future. But it seems likely that the Kingston version of the character will be seen more. Her line in 'Silence In The Library' about never having seen the Doctor look so young suggests that she knows several future versions of the Doctor. I would be more interested in River if it seemed likely that she could be played by different actresses through previous regenerations as a counterpoint to the Doctor. But any previous versions of River would be programmed to kill the Doctor, so this seems unlikely. A shame and a missed opportunity.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Regeneration Disabled

    by ShadowTiger

    I doubt it's a throwaway cheat. I suspect it may be important later...perhaps this Doctor isn't the real Doctor?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:04 p.m. CST

    Spoiler.

    by Perigee

    Wrong River. Wrong timeline. Or Impossibly Bad continuity. According to canon, Jim the Fish now cannot happen. Stevie Wonder in the 1700's is impossible, and that was just one episode ago. There's no more "opposite order" to meet in. Moff the Magician. Slight of hand.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:06 p.m. CST

    Sorry but that was an incoherent mess

    by catlettuce4

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:06 p.m. CST

    Either the Doctor or Moffat are screwing with time today.

    by The Transformed Man

    Because this is the longest day ever. It's passing unnaturally slowly. Something's going on here.

  • Unlike Delgado's Master, who had a flashier Mark 2 model. So when did the Mark 3 come about, eh?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:24 p.m. CST

    DOH! Of course it is!! Spoiler.

    by Perigee

    First we have this strange Silence order try to "At last" have an end to this "long war" to get the Doctor. Now we have this Tessalecta group the Doctor has never heard of, out to avenge his death. They are after River... But before this, it's the stormcage containment facility, for punishment of what seems to be the same crime. River IS serving time (sorta) for her crime. She's no longer on a Most Wanted list. The Doctor knows about the stormcage, knows about the clerics, but not these other guys. I don't know Why, but this whole thing feels like its down the rabbit hole. And I'm guessing the only reason more of US don't think so is because it appears the doctor doesn't.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:27 p.m. CST

    Complex but mostly fantastic ...

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Best from Karen I've seen yet, Smith utterly wonderful at times ... Its becoming very hard to clearly follow (I THINK I get it) ... but at least its never dull. I just pity casual viewers and people who don't have a passion for Science Fiction ... because they will not have a CLUE what that just was.

  • I'm sitting here, listening to all-day reporting on Hurricane Irene, so, I start to flick thur the channels and, what do I find, BBCAmerica, my cable Co. gave me BBCAmerica and I just found out. I'm going to have to DVR the 3 BBCA Who Specials. Oh, and, "Let's Kill Hitler!" was great!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:38 p.m. CST

    Congrats Axcel1!

    by gotilk

    Now did they give it to you in HD? I cancelled cable because it was in SD and I got impatient.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    Be careful east-coasters...

    by gotilk

    worried about you. Watch for flying Toblerones, they can be pointy. I kid, but seriously be safe and well.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Surprising number of loose ends tied up (spoilers)

    by Dreamfasting

    I was surprised by the number of loose ends in River's life that were tried up (or at least shortened to limit how tangled they can become). After giving River the ability to regenerate earlier this year, they take it all away an connected all her incarnations. We have the Tardis teaching River how to pilot her ... cutting short any need to be a long-term companion of the Doctor. In fact, it feels like we're awfully close to being able to tie up River's entire arc. The offhanded comment about the Silence has introduced yet another religious order into the mix ... which is a little surprising. It would be funny if the Doctor, having rebooted the universe, comes to be revered as the universe's creator by some cosmic religions. The entire resolution to the question of why doesn't he go back and stop Hitler is something that fans speculate about a lot but the show dodges. I suppose that we are left to infer from the Doctor's reactions that from his point of view, Hitler is in the past, a part of history already written and so there's no point in rewriting it. Still, it feels like a bit of a missed opporuntity to talk more directly about things the Doctor does and doesn't interfere with in his travels. The way he dismisses the notion of responsibility in time travel is a little disturbing for a character who can be so self-righteous in the moment.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:51 p.m. CST

    River lies, too

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember River lies. Oh, and to me the big thing: River was ID'ed with the TARDIS

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:58 p.m. CST

    perigee - re:River/order

    by Dreamfasting

    I feel people read too much into River's line about "back-to-front". There would be no need to compare diaries if there was ever a perfect reverse order - they aren't sharing spoilers and they'd never have a story in common in the first place. It's just that from her point of view, as she gets older, her share of knowledge of the sum of all their adventures increases.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 6:59 p.m. CST

    gotilk, yes they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by axcel1

    that wonderful "HD" is right there, "BBCAHD". Thank you, Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST

    Loved it!

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Glad my power held out and the ep got blown off a truck that drove by, yeah, that works as well right? Anyway, a good start to the second half, and alot of question going back to Silence in the Library have been answered, yet new ones have been posed, including the Ultimate question...lol

  • I'm in an area where I may just get a very, very hard rain and wind, so, no problems here, weather-wise.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:03 p.m. CST

    shadowtiger - re:regeneration disabled

    by Dreamfasting

    My take on it was that the poison was inhibiting his ability to regenerate. The 5th Doctor's regeneration into the 6th was nearly disrupted by poison. The Master believed Marth's bluff about a regeneration-inhibiting poison. So (not looking up if that particular poison has ever been referenced before) it makes sense that there would be substances out there that could prevent regeneration.

  • I don't have to pay extra for it, it's part of the basic-cable package!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:09 p.m. CST

    NICE axcel1 congrats

    by gotilk

    on both the HD and not getting the hard end of the storm.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:11 p.m. CST

    BBC America

    by The Transformed Man

    Just a warning: after the first run of longer episodes (things like Christmas specials) they chop them to pieces to make them fit into a one hour slot. I'm infuriated every time I catch "The Eleventh Hour" or "A Christmas Carol" with scenes trimmed down and lines missing. They've gotten better about airing the show on the same day as the UK, but if a holiday weekend happens (like Labor Day), they'll likely skip a week, putting us a week behind. That happened during the first part of Series 6 on Memorial Day weekend, I believe.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:12 p.m. CST

    So many apparent conclusions to loose ends

    by HornOrSilk

    The TARDIS taught River. Fine. How long was River in the TARDIS by herself? A long time? She is known by the TARDIS, after all. Or will River also inherit the TARDIS at the end of the season? Will we be left with the death of the Doctor still to be resolved? And more importantly, how do we really know River had to use all her regenerations? The Doctor lies. River lies. There is more than meets the eye

  • Do they (BBCA) cut Who (or, any UK series) that runs over the 40-42 minutes needed for the good old american tv ads?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:14 p.m. CST

    dreamfasting

    by HornOrSilk

    It might be, of course, the poison. It might still be in the Doctor, too, making it why he dies. Or it could be something he did between episodes. There is a lot left open with that one.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:16 p.m. CST

    There are many things for River to learn

    by HornOrSilk

    Like about Donna. There are a lot of stories left with her. We might not see them all. But I expect more of them. And I do think Silence in the Library is not the end of River.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:25 p.m. CST

    axcel1

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Two things, 1 Where are you in the hurricane zone? I am also in the zone, in the very northernmost part of Delaware on the PA border. 2. Yes, BBCA does cut the eps a little to get in the commercials.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:28 p.m. CST

    One more loose end tied up that hasn't been mentioned (SPOIlERS)

    by DoctorTom

    Whatever River whispered to the Doctor in the Library, is probably (at least some of) what the Doctor whispered to River when he was at the point of death.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:29 p.m. CST

    what the Doctor said

    by HornOrSilk

    Knock. knock. Who's there?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:32 p.m. CST

    Speculation/questions based on SPOILERS

    by DoctorTom

    The Doctor obviously found out his death date. How much other information about the Doctor did the Tesselecta have that he has now? Everything for the rest of the season? Presumably not anything beyond Lake Silencio, or the Tesselecta would have known he's not really dead. Unless he did die. And also didn't die. If there's more than one of him. Or the universe changing stuff comes around and unfixes that point in time and space. <br> Also, when River cured the Doctor, was there the possibility of a Time Lord mind meld during that? Does the Doctor know River's past now? More importantly, does River know her future between Tennant and A Good Man Goes To War?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:35 p.m. CST

    darthdevious - you're a Delaware boy?

    by DoctorTom

    I grew up in the area you're describing, and still have a mother and brother there (he's battening down for the hurricane). Which spot of Delaware? I'm from the Talleyville area. <br> I hope you weather the storm alright, and pick up some Doctor Who stuff later at Between Books (Greg has a wonderful store.)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:39 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by Kevin Bolinger

    I actually grew up in South River NJ, near New Brunswick. I currently live in Claymont, right next to I95. Know exactly where Talleyville is. I am hoping the storm does not hit as hard as they are predicting, not much I can do about it either way. Oh, I live near the Tri-State mall, off Naamans rd, if you know where that is :P

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:49 p.m. CST

    axcel1, regarding BBCA

    by The Transformed Man

    DOCTOR WHO is the only one I'm hyper aware of being cut because of the level of attention I pay to that particular show. The longer episodes are doomed. They air them in their entirety the first time they air them, but in future showings, they hack them to bits. I don't think they usually cut the regular length episodes. But it's glaringly obvious in episodes like "The Eleventh Hour". I really wish they'd show some classic Who.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:51 p.m. CST

    in the mid 80s...

    by lynxpro

    I met Peter Davison and Colin Baker at the two big Doctor Who conventions we had here in Sacramento. Colin even was awarded the key to the city. Of course those were before the dark times, before the BBC/BBC Enterprises/Wordwide/Lionheart killed the Doctor Who Fan Club of America over not supporting their traveling Who Van that only excelled at ripping off fandom. That and the DWFCA was highly critical of the BBC Controller as well as the firing of Colin Baker, if I recall correctly... Not that I'm still bitter or anything [why the hell do we still not have BBCA HD on DirecTV, mofos?]. P.S. The writing on Torchwood Miracle Day is still terrible. How can people die in a car bomb when the suicide bomber from the first episode survived?

  • Like I said, I think I'm in an area where I will (hopfully?) just get a very hard rain and high wind. And, I guess that's the down side of BBCA.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:55 p.m. CST

    Oh yeah, I know Tri-State

    by DoctorTom

    I actually worked some summers over there back around 78-81. It was a little better over there then. Between Books had actually started out at the lower level of the mall before it moved to where it is now. It seems rougher territory over there (I read once that some people stole cars from the mall parking lot by bringing in a large car hauler and loading the cars up on it.) <br> I was just talking with my brother and he was telling me about the tornado watches and the waterspout spotted off the coast. Stay safe, if you can.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 7:58 p.m. CST

    transformedman - Who isn't the only thing to get cut

    by DoctorTom

    If they're showing Top Gear in a 1 hour time slot, then they've cut a bunch out since it usually goes an hour without commercials. That's why with the newer series they're showing them uncut and having them take 1 hour 20 minutes (then padding out the rest of the hour with the Oz and May stuff). <br> I don't know if Outnumbered or the other comedy stuff is being cut. I'm also not sure about The Hour, but I suspect so.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:01 p.m. CST

    lynxpro - the travelling van

    by DoctorTom

    I actually went in the van and liked it at the time (I was at school in Wisconsin, and went to a convention in Madison to see it). Overall it's not a bad concept in theory, since a lot of people can't get to areas to see fullblown exhibits like The Doctor Who Experience. <br> I think the convention I saw it at had Terrance Dicks and Katy Manning. The other one I remember going to was with Colin Baker and Patrick Troughton - they did a wonderful double act continuing on from The Two Doctors

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:01 p.m. CST

    lynxpro.. we had DW conventions in Sacramento??

    by gotilk

    How did I miss that? Perhaps it was the 80s? I wasn't there yet back then. Was in the foothills at that time. and... P.S. - Simple... a much, much better bomb. But yeah, Torchwoof has been pretty terrible. Loved ep 7 though. 8 left me cold once again. Sad, huh?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:02 p.m. CST

    TorchwooF ...

    by gotilk

    I hope i sticks. Has a ring to it. Hate to make fun though, being that I liked it so much before.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:04 p.m. CST

    ooops. my bad lynx

    by gotilk

    You said "the 80s". Yeah, before I arrived.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:10 p.m. CST

    I think we can also put to rest the debate as to SM and the past

    by HornOrSilk

    He most certainly is free to reuse RTD's era and the people from that era as he wants. And he did. Donna and Wilf, come back. For one more time.

  • What's wrong with standalone mysteries? Trek, X-Files, Doctor Who -All at their best when dealing with a Monster Of The Week. When you call these shows to mind, it's the brilliant individual episodes you remember. Like 'Tooms', 'Darmok', 'Blink'. Touchcloth was scary once.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:28 p.m. CST

    WHO and INBETWEENERS are about all I follow on BBCA.

    by The Transformed Man

    I wouldn't know if they cut INBETWEENERS or not. But they edit the dialog a bit. It's funny that they bleep out "tits" but they don't sensor "blowie".

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:37 p.m. CST

    Yeah Doctortom

    by Kevin Bolinger

    I have only lived here for 4 years. the TriState mall is dead most of the time now. Even Kmart gets little business. Everyone goes up to Target near 202 it seems. Which is a good thing since my wife works at that Target lol. So far, the storm has not been bad, but the worse stuff is coming any time now.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 8:56 p.m. CST

    All around great episode, but the broadcast was interrupted!

    by The Transformed Man

    By an emergency services announcement! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:02 p.m. CST

    *spoilers* #$!%@ Emergency Services Announcements!!! *spoilers*

    by The Transformed Man

    NOW I DON'T KNOW HOW TINY AMY AND RORY GOT BIG AGAIN!!!!! That interruption couldn't have waited until the clipshow they're doing now, just fifteen minutes later? I know there's bad weather outside! AAAAAAARGH!!! The whole planet knows that! I want this announcer found and destroyed. Actually, I want his job so I can interrupt something lame like that Jersey show and towards the end of the bad weather announcement abruptly say something along the lines of "Oh no! They're here! No, stay back! Stay--AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!" *silence* and get fired for doing that.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:23 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS, another very fun episode.

    by Elsewhere

    Fun stuff. Loved the opening River-Doctor "I know what you did scene." Will we see more of crazy *evil River? Will we have to wonder when she shows up if she's good or evil?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:25 p.m. CST

    Now, for a really wild theory (spoilers)

    by DoctorTom

    Okay, the Silents want the Doctor dead. They're working with the Church with Omega Symbols (which might tie in with the Question that will allow the universe to end.) Presumably they're tied in with the Church. <br> The Tesselecta was a Justice Machine sanctioned by the Order of the Silence (not sure if the Order is spelled with a t or c type of silence yet). What if it turns out Madame Kovarian is actually one of these robots, with miniaturized Silents inside piloting her? It would explain how she managed to get away with baby Melody - she was miniaturized and stuck inside Kovarian when she left Demon's run.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:27 p.m. CST

    irene brought down all satellite service

    by jnsin1960

    BBC America may not be available until Tuesday for the replay. Will there be any other means of watching LKH before then, either online or other means?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:32 p.m. CST

    a SPOILERY question *spoilers!*

    by The Transformed Man

    How come the poison lipstick doesn't kill River too?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Interesting theory, Tom.

    by The Transformed Man

    Sounds like a possibility.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST

    Fios is working where I live, cable and satellite are not

    by WickedJacob

    I'm the only person I know who actually saw the episode. I am SUCH a better person than all my friends. And I just thought all of you should know.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:35 p.m. CST

    doctortom -- closed captioning said "silence"

    by WickedJacob

    That's right, I watch with CC on. That's how superior I am to the rest of you.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:42 p.m. CST

    Doctom; dun think so...

    by Perigee

    Since Patches wants him deaded, and the Roboty people want to punish the people who "killed" him, it strikes me that they're working at cross purposes. River "killed the Doctor on the orders of the movement known as The Silence, and Academy of the Question." and then Robo-Red vomited the blue light. At no point did the Roboty people align themselves with them. ( I love technology...)

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:44 p.m. CST

    Benjamin

    by sitchin

    Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but who/what was all that "hello Benjamin" business? Is the Doctor's name now Benjamin?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:45 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by sitchin

    She spent years building up a tolerance to iocaine powder

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:54 p.m. CST

    sitchin

    by The Transformed Man

    Well played.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 9:58 p.m. CST

    @gotlik - You're (doc)back for good, old friend! *spoiler*

    by wtriker1701

    I'm wondering (if nobody should have raised this question before...), if River Song is actually Prisoner Zero!? If it's already answered, please someone let me know... But the whole Cracks In Time and River Song Arc made me think, they are both: The Question and The Answer of the medal... "Hello, Sweetie!" She seems to be the weapon of The Silents, and they are supposed to be behind the cracks in time... or am I getting too much wrong here...? Wonderful episode, but minor nitpicking about "The Benjamin" and how Doctor Who was able to not just be aware of River taking the gun, but actually unload it unnoticed (by at least Rory and Amy) while Mels' regenerating... On the other hand: extremely entertaining Who! Glad, it's (doc)back for the next weeks... Sorry, can't help for the puns intended...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:07 p.m. CST

    The answer is 42.

    by shutupfanboy

    Jesus Christ, Moffat. I loved a lot of this episode and at the same time found it to be a bit off. I will say the worst thing on Doctor Who was not the episode, but the giant omission of Sarah Jane on Best of the Companions special. Lets Kill Hitler had more old companions then the fucking special.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:10 p.m. CST

    sitchin

    by DoctorTom

    Inconceivable!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:11 p.m. CST

    No, River isn't Prisoner Zero

    by DoctorTom

    not unless she became a shape shifty eel thing.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:12 p.m. CST

    those best of specials

    by The Transformed Man

    They seem to focus on the current regime. I don't think they showed ANY RTD or pre-RTD clips. Am I wrong about that?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:12 p.m. CST

    Benjamin (Spoiler. Kinda)

    by Perigee

    Kind of a time out of joint thing. Benjamin = Dustin Hoffman in "The Graduate." As in, Mrs. Robinson.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:24 p.m. CST

    The Robot

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Ok, here we go, everyone remember, the Silence needed a space suit, not an ordinary one, but one that was self propelled with young Melody inside. This Robot is the end result of that fledgling tech...think about it.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:31 p.m. CST

    Mrs Robinson, you're trying to EXTERMINATE me.

    by Nerfee

    Would you like me to EXTERMINATE you, is that what you're trying to say?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:33 p.m. CST

    What kind of a weapon? (spoilers)

    by frankenstone

    We have been told that River Song is a weapon, designed to destroy the Doctor. Apparently, as a little girl, she kills the Doctor dead, while she is wearing the spacesuit. But the older River doesn't remember this. So this might not be what happens. It might be somebody else in the spacesuit, for all that we know. An older incarnation of Melody/River succeeds in killing the Doctor with poison, during WWII. But he whispers something in her ear before he dies, so she uses her regenerative powers to bring him back to life. An even older version of River Song flies the Tardis back to the time and place that she was conceived - her parents' wedding night - and for some reason, the Tardis explodes, cracking apart the universe. The Doctor manages to fix things, but only by erasing himself from reality. Was River designed to be a weapon meant to destroy the very universe itself? When will the Doctor visit the Gamma Forest?

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 10:53 p.m. CST

    The "Best Of" specials

    by Mordock57

    Those specials are concentrating solely on seasons 5 and 6. I know Best of the Companions SHOULD include Sarah Jane, Rose, Donna, etc. etc. etc... but that's not how they were conceived. They're trying to get as many people caught up on the current Doctor as possible, to take advantage of the excellent word of mouth currently spreading about the series. If they ever did an ACTUAL "Best of the Companions", it would have to be 2-3 hours long to include everyone. For now, I'm enjoying this "I Love The 80's" presentation of the current Doctor's exploits.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:05 p.m. CST

    BBCA broadcast of AGMGTW

    by Jon Voights Ballsack

    Adding to the topic on how BBC America butchers episodes in rebroadcast, the repeats of "A Good Man Goes to War" actually had sequences that were sped up to make the hour slot. At the end of the episode, the entire section where everyone is defending themselves against the Headless Monks (while the Doctor, having just realized he's been duped by Kovarian, hauls ass towards Amy) is sped up. Even River's voiceover is sped up, which just makes the whole thing seem sloppy. Even the placement of the commercial breaks are moronic - the clever gag of cutting from the Cleric about to make his "donation" to the Headless Monks directly to a guillotine-like thing being slid down has a commerical break in the middle of it. Complete nonsense, clearly edited by people with no interest in the artistic integrity of their own programming. AGMGTW was the first episode I saw, and I was just baffled when I saw that. It wasn't until later that I learned the rebroadcasts were hacked up. That episode ran 48 minutes, so it's safe to assume that "Let's Kill Hitler" will also be a victim of sloppy editing since it was only half a minute shorter. But hey - they finally dropped the "My name is Amy Pond and I had an imaginary friend" bit. Of course, it'll probably be back next week.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:05 p.m. CST

    manofvertue...

    by lynxpro

    Can we please get a two-Doc episode next series? And no, I'm not asking for a return of Eccleston or Tennant. I'd love to see a team up of the 11th Doctor with a pre-war 8th Doctor...just let Paul wear his new "suit" and his natural hair. It would be an emotional sendoff the 11th would be making once they both defeat whatever villain challenges them, with 8 on his way to his unknown and 11 dealing with the pain and anguish and having to do the right thing by not giving him any advanced knowledge that could help him prevent the event or the destruction of his loved ones. I think Smith and McGann would do well with each other.

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:35 p.m. CST

    gotilk, conventions in Sacramento in mid 80s...

    by lynxpro

    Gotilk, we had 2 rather large conventions here in Sac back in 85 and 86. Several thousand people attended. They were held in the giant ballroom of the original Red Lion Inn which is now the Doubletree on Arden Way. And despite how the BBCA represents Who now in America, I think it had a larger [underground] following back then. After all, PBS is much easier to catch - free - than trying to watch Doctor Who on a third-tier-digital-plus-platinum niche cable channel like BBCA. Doctor Who was huge on PBS back then, until the BBC got greedy and started charing an arm and a leg to televise it which basically killed it stone dead in the US [combined with BBC canceling the show in 89] and caused the show to get dropped by all but 5 or so PBS stations in the entire nation. Anyway, Peter Davison was the first former Doctor to be brought to Sac. Colin Baker came the next year and that was before he was fired. The BBC ripoff van a couple of years later at least featured Jon Pertwee but it was really expensive for how little it offered. If you go on Youtube and look up KVIE 6, you'll catch some of the old Doctor Who pledge breaks that were staffed by the Sacramento Doctor Who Fan Club. I wasn't a member and I can't tell you when they went defunct; I'm also surprised it hasn't resurfaced since NewWho returned. There's also - or at least there was - a scholarship set up in honor of the late Patrick Troughton at CSU Sacramento for their drama department... You have to remember Sacramento is considered the Scifi Capitol of the World [per capita]. Star Trek ran in repeats on Channel 40 for years before the franchise was resurrected and it was always mega popular [here]. Classic Doctor Who was mega popular here [from 84 to about 92]. Sacramento's ratings for The X-Files Season 1 is what convinced Fox to stick with the show instead of canceling it. I could go on and on with other examples. It's too bad the Science Fiction Museum is up in Seattle because it belongs here!

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:38 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by lynxpro

    My objection to the Who Van was the price involved. The only real benefit was seeing Jon Pertwee. The whole thing caused a major fiasco between the BBC and the DWFCA which led the BBC to threaten to create their own rival "official" fan club and the whole thing basically killed American fandom. Had the official fandom remained, I'd imagine we probably would've had the show back on the air in 96...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:44 p.m. CST

    "Storage Wars" and the "Doctor Who" connection

    by lynxpro

    If you watch the credits, just about every reality tv show that's on A&E, Discovery, and History are produced by Phil Segal, the man who tried to [permanently] bring Doctor Who back to our tv screens in 1996. I feel I'm rather perverse. Each episode I watch of "Storage Wars" I secretly hope Barry Weiss will buy a weird storage locker and discover the TARDIS hidden behind some stacked up bedbug infested mattresses. I suspect Barry himself is a Chameleon Arched Time Lord in disguise. I mean, the guy travels around with psychics, a stilt walking midget with night vision goggles, a dude from Boston wearing something Sting would've probably worn in "Dune", and then he goes off and has dinner with one of the guys from Aerosmith. Yep, he's definitely an alien walking amongst us...

  • Aug. 27, 2011, 11:52 p.m. CST

    LET'S KILL HITLER

    by Nickytea

    Woah, I was not expecting that. This episode really delivered, didn't it? Can't think of another show I'm this excited/worked up about.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:03 a.m. CST

    Amy Pond cold open

    by The Transformed Man

    They did use it on the first BBCA broadcast tonight. I think they left it out on the repeat.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:05 a.m. CST

    MOV

    by The Transformed Man

    Yes, please bring McGann back. And... please, please, use Frobisher. Just once. And use the guy who did his voice in the audios. Frobisher is awesome.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:13 a.m. CST

    My favorite theory about what "The Question" is:

    by Nickytea

    Doctor who? Love the idea that the Academy of the Question/Silence are based around the Doctor's name not being uttered ... as if it somehow holds power itself. In the same way that we will NEVER know his name ... if we did, the show (or its central intrigue) would be over. This would be canonizing/literalizing in the plot an understood aspect of the show's metaphorical mystique. If they literally speak his name ... silence will fall. Or that could be a load of bunk.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:13 a.m. CST

    Trying to get my thoughts straight. *SPOILERS*

    by The Transformed Man

    So... Robot pilot guys are trying to give River Song hell for killing the Doctor. They seem to know that she killed him. But here, he's being killed at the wrong time, because he's supposed to be shot at the lake as seen in "The Impossible Astronaut". So it sounds like they're confirming that she killed him there. But she the River that's with Amy and Rory when he's killed doesn't seem to see it coming. In "Let's Kill Hitler", she refers to not remembering a lot about her brainwashing. Maybe an earlier version of herself was in the astronaut suit, but she doesn't remember? But if this is the crime she's imprisoned for, I'd guess she knows when it was committed. Is the "Impossible Astronaut" River trying to keep Amy and Rory spoiler free, or is the astronaut someone else entirely? What's Moffat really up to here? It's stupid o'clock, so this might look really dumb when I reread it in the morning.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:15 a.m. CST

    290 posts on this thread over the last 24 hours???!!!

    by The Transformed Man

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:39 a.m. CST

    Fish fingers and custard

    by captain_kirk

    What did this have to do with anything? Also, did river say the last time she regenerated, she turned up in new york? How did rory and Amy never know who mels parents were? Why des a twenty something girl regenerate into. A 50 yo woman? Cool feature: now d won't stop at 12 reenerations.

  • ...some version of River Song/Melody Pond trying to resolve the problem of how to kill the Doctor. These stories this season are almost impossible to follow continuity to make guesses, especially when the Moffat stupes to using the trick of having "placeholders" for people to participate in episodes, to later be revealed as having been somewhere else for the time. Between the jumping back and forth in time and this, I'm skeptical that that the end of the season is going to be a trick rather than anything consistant with the story telling...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:04 a.m. CST

    JFK

    by Mark Leffler

    Anybody else catch the reference to Kennedy when the robot pilots were talking about changing history?

  • You have got to be kidding me.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:49 a.m. CST

    Well done, John J Rambo

    by timesfool

    Thanks for pointing out what really needs to be pointed out with this current season: the convoluted over-use of deus ex machina solutions, the re-writing of every rule in order to 'tell' us what is happen versus showing us (Mels being the best example so far), and the total lack of what we really need to 'get' this season - MOTIVATION. Last season worked beautifully because the arc was simple: The Doctor becomes attached to a young girl who is at the center of a mix-up in the universe. The cracks were clever, but consistent: we didn't have to guess about them every episode. We were taken on the journey with Amy and experienced things as they happened to her. The pieces of her puzzle were laid out for us and we could follow the path right to the end. Well, until the end, when the convolutions were set in motion by the Doctor 'rebooting' the universe and my favorite bugbear: the plastic Auton that looked like Rory turning out to have Rory's memories and personality even though he NEVER EXISTED at that point in the story. He'd fallen through the crack, remember? And if he had fallen through the crack, why was his picture still in Amy's room? This is where confusion sets in. WHEN did River Song visit Amy's house at the end of The Pandorica Opens? Even if it was a time BEFORE Rory fell into the crack it wouldn't matter, because he never existed once he did fall in. That Rory, returned after the re-boot of the series, REMEMBERS being something HE never was (an Auton), just adds to the frustration. This is when a writer thinks he is so clever no one will notice the mistake. Or care. Bad choices. This season we have been introduced to too many concepts that seem out of the blue: The Silence, Kovarian's gang, River as the a weapon (remember, that idea was really only presented this season, there is NOTHING in season five that suggests she would ever be or was ever the Doctor's enemy, only the possibility she may be some sort of con-artist). Oh, and in spite of the name, there was NOTHING that registered River was Amy and Rory's daughter. Even Moffat said he had kept that option open, but I doubt he decided on it till they started work on Season 6. Anyone think River will be raised by her parents? Doubtful. So what was the point of Amy and Rory going through this ridiculous setup? It waters down these two characters to nothing. All the hype of last season, of the importance of Amy, is completely lost. She and Rory delivered the kid, now their purpose is used up. What else is there for them to do? We're being 'told' everything instead of being shown. We are meant to assume things instead of put together pieces of a puzzle like last year and, increasingly, the producers are relying in dazzle and spectacle over substance. Could Let's Kill Hitler have been placed in any other time frame and still been the same story? Yes. Hitler was irrelevant. Flash over substance. Imagine if, last year, Prisoner Zero had told the Doctor there was a war coming, instead of 'silence will fall' what if it had told the Doctor he had enemies that he should be looking out for? What if, last year, we had been introduced to an actual Headless Monk or been given some lore about the Silence, the way we were about the Weeping Angels? Would this season have made more sense? Possibly. Now we have even more questions and the idea that they will all be answered is something I no longer trust that Moffat is able to do. Oh, he'll explain all right, but he really shouldn't have to. Good writing doesn't need to explain itself. Relying on wibbley-wobbley, timey-wimey just doesn't cut it. I hang in there only because I want to enjoy the show. I really want to. Will Moffat recognize his mistakes? If so, can he correct them? He has inferred recently about going back to stand-alone stories. Maybe he does see what a clunker this season has been and while he won't admit it, maybe he's done trying something so complicated it was beyond him. I do hope so.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:50 a.m. CST

    It was an ok episode. Too many plot holes to call it great

    by mistergreen

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:59 a.m. CST

    doom patrol

    by john

    does anyone else have the feeling that moffat is a big fan of morrison's doom patrol?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2 a.m. CST

    Anybody else notice.... *Spoilers*

    by Alan

    When Mels started to regenerate, there was no bullet hole or blood in/on her costume? Hitler is a bad shot indeed.... I don't think this was a continuity error, no blood or hole was seen before the regeneration started. Also, no holes in River (Ooohh-Errr) when the SS shot her....

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:08 a.m. CST

    I need some diagram to keep me from losing the plot

    by Legolars

    My one major complaint this season is that with all the timetravelling intersecting the Doctor's future and past, the whole story is getting too hard to follow. Moffat overcomplicated the story, but in the case of "Let's Kill Hitler" for once this season, I was having too much fun to care. Also, any episode with Alex Kingston is gold!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:28 a.m. CST

    Let's Kill Hitle - No Spoilers

    by Shuggy Boy

    HOLY SHIT THAT WAS FUCKING AMAZING!!!! And for anyone who says it's too comlicated for children - FUCK OFF. I understood the complexities of Time Travel when i was 8 in 1977 when I started reasing 2000AD. Kids aren't thick. They are fucking annoying but they are not stupid!!! :)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:42 a.m. CST

    captain_kirk fish fingers and custard

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, I think there was something going on with that. Something very strange. Somehow, Amelia Pond spoke through the TARDIS. The real one. That's what it seemed. For that is what the Doctor ate when they first met. And there is a big jump; the Doctor has changed outfits. Which Doctor is it that has come back? What has he been doing? I think "The Girl Who Waited" will tell us something about this.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:44 a.m. CST

    transformedman if you want to know how they got out spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    The TARDIS lands inside the robot Amy's head around Rory and Amy. River is piloting the TARDIS. She says the TARDIS told her how to do it and that the Doctor had told her she is a child of the TARDIS. This suggests she has been with the TARDIS for sometime to learn how to do this. And has talked to the Doctor more than we have seen.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:49 a.m. CST

    timesfool is right

    by tomdolan04

    I enjoy the series i do, but i just dont get the 'moff' love to the point where hes making huge plot holes and justifying them all with 'timey wimey' logic which, while a riot as a throwaway line in blink, doesnt apply to massive season long arcs. <p> The people who believe moff is going to save all this convoluted bobbins in the last few episodes are the people who wear their 'amys house is a tardis cos it has a blue door' tshirt at night. I can reference a load a shit too, it doesnt mean i have a masterplan

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:25 a.m. CST

    Quite dissapointing...

    by Hideo Kojima

    This season is REALLY starting to test my patience. I echo the sentiments of others above about the continued use of dei ex machina and poor story telling. I'm tired of River Song and the whole "Spoilers!" routine, it's run its course. Also does there have to be a "Doctor Who?" joke every other episode now? It's growing tiresome. Another thing that this episode made me realize is that this season seems less and less about the Doctor and more of an ensemble affair. In Classic Who and all seasons prior to this one the Doctor was the main driving force behind events, now he's just a bit player. Why does "THE MOFF" continually write episodes convoluted for the sake of being convoluted? He's better than this. The Happiness Patrol is better than this shit...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:28 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima

    by HornOrSilk

    Not true. Colin's first season, he is often a bit player. Some of Hartnell's stories, he is a bit player. Even the first season of the new Doctor Who, one could argue Rose was the main character.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:32 a.m. CST

    Plot holes vs questions

    by HornOrSilk

    First of all, every story has questions which one can ask of it. The fact you can ask questions doesn't mean they are plot holes, or there are no answers. Second, many of the questions it is clear are meant to be there. Rory is a prime example here. SM has said his deaths are a key to this series. He also has said this series is like a ghost train. This should say much. Third, when you don't understand the motivation, that's your problem. I understand the motivation.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:38 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Hideo Kojima

    I disagree about The Doc being a bit player "most" of Colin's first season. And I haven't a problem with the occasional Doctor-lite episode, This season just sort of drags on though, nothing is ever resolved.. Might as well be watching LOST

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:40 a.m. CST

    Cerebus

    by Andrew Greening

    Sorry mate, I would not say that the Moff is a fan of Eddie Murphy as the Meet Dave story idea from lifted from a british comic from many years ago. As Moff is from this great country he would have certainly read, Beezer comic (I think) and read a strip call NUMBSKULLS in which a load of little people all controlled a large man, they even all looked like the man that they were controlling to boot. The Moff like all good writers "borrows" from popular stories and mythology and hopes that no one will notice, but when you get as old as we do and have watched Who since the late Pertwee years even though Tom Baker was "my Doctor" people will notice.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:41 a.m. CST

    Rule #1 The Doctor Lies. Rule #2 River Lies

    by HornOrSilk

    Conclusion, it doesn't have to be the Doctor who died. However, the Doctor and River want everyone to think it was the Doctor who died. The body was burned so as to make sure no one knew it wasn't the Doctor. That's still a possibility. It is all the Doctor's plan to make it look like he died. And River _has_ to go along with it and that means, going to prison. Nonetheless, I still think it was the new universes' Doctor. But I can see this as a way out.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:43 a.m. CST

    ghost train?

    by Hideo Kojima

    as in it's coming right at you, full steam ahead but in the end it is goes right through you without a scratch? or is it a clue that we will see the return of Light and Amy's house is actually Gabriel Chase?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:46 a.m. CST

    SJW. Hornorsilk, MOV, etc

    by Andrew Greening

    Just a note guys, all of you have made great reading over the past few months and i think that without you guys this DocBack would have failed to survive, i think it is great of Merrick to post rules and to remove people who cause problems as this is something Harry needs to address on the regular Talkbacks, I come on this site for info about the thread not about politics or the other rubbish that is always argued about. There is enough trouble in the UK right now for most of us to use this as an open forum but we cannot take this site away from what it is a site for all true fans. Thanks to you all

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:48 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima

    by HornOrSilk

    We were told this season is a ghost train by the Moff. We were not told which of these it means: Ghost train (folklore) Ghost train, alternative name for a dark ride, an indoor amusement ride Ghost train, alternative name for a parliamentary train, a service run rarely to maintain the legal fiction that a station or line remains open However, I suspect it is the third. Or the Ghost Train play: The plot revolves around a party of passengers who find themselves stranded in the waiting room of an isolated station. The station master tries to get them to leave citing the local legend of a ghost train that dooms all who see it to death. It is revealed later in the plot that the train is in fact smuggling arms and the story has been concocted to frighten away strangers.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:56 a.m. CST

    doctorandy - thanks

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, I try to keep alive the fun of Doctor Who and Doctor Who speculations. Some people don't like the speculations, but I think it is an important part of being a fan while the show is on air. And we can all get testy at times, in these threads, but that's humanity. We come together afterward and, as you said, that is what makes these talkbacks the best on AICN. The rules came out of what was already happening, but, you are right, extending beyond here would be nice, but that is up to Harry and I understand (I think) why it doesn't happen (moderation can be difficult; plus the debates bring more attention to posts leading to more people reading the post, which of course, is seen as a good thing, etc). Nonetheless, glad you are here with us.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:59 a.m. CST

    Season Finale

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm beginning to think will be something like a short version of a BF audio. The Doctor _dies_ (whether or not a true or false death). River takes the TARDIS -- as a part of a trap to find out more about the Silence. And she goes back in time to have Winston Churchill take the TARDIS from her, who then alters time to his own desire. The only problem with this, of course, is it would take a lot to do all that in one sitting. So I am thinking we will see the death of the Doctor at the end of Closing Time.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:03 a.m. CST

    there were some hitler related stuff on the telly last week

    by emeraldboy

    in the uk. A writer in an irish newspaper mentioned that calling a program lets kill hitler was a desperate title for a tanking series. Season 5 of dr who was all about Amy pond and her marriage to rory. the silence were there in the background but had not been revealed. Moffat said who is river song? you will find in season 6. and we did. Season 6 started out on the wrong foot and the scene with amy and rory as a married couple was shoe horned in. and as a story line it just looked badly handled. but then as that confusing episode came to an end and we saw the dr die. that was a WTF moment. I was left utterly confused by season 6. by the end we all knew who river song was. it was melody pond. last nights episode was very good but it was sloppy. it looked great visually but the sudden introduction of mel/melody/mels was terrible mess. as was the bizarre decision to have mel/melody/mels as a childhood friend made no sense. the tereselcta was great. so I am going to give this episode 4.5.5/5

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:12 a.m. CST

    re: 3rd def. of 'ghost train'

    by Hideo Kojima

    hmm... I understand what that means in real terms, but how do you think it applies to Who?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:12 a.m. CST

    More on the Doctor/River ending

    by HornOrSilk

    What did the Doctor tell River? I think something along the lines of "I love her, and I would do anything to save her, even die for her." Maybe also something like "I knew this day was coming and am ready for it. " Then when she figures out he is willing to die for her, she realizes she has been lied to and tricked about the Doctor. That he was doing and willing to do just as he said -- he was dying for her. Also, I still don't think she lost her regenerations. She was still in the middle of her regeneration. I think it just ended that regeneration.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:16 a.m. CST

    emeraldboy

    by Hideo Kojima

    4.5.5 out of 5? that's some crazy hypermath right there! Adric would be proud ;)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:17 a.m. CST

    emeraldboy - about mels

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it made sense. River said her last regeneration had her become a child. We don't know how many regenerations she has used. However, she was looking for her parents. She found them -- and so stayed with them. She knew the Doctor would come around, eventually.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:18 a.m. CST

    UNDERSTAND THE NEGATIVITY....

    by SISKOKID

    ...Moffatt has alwaysstated his love for WHO, but what is he changing it into? I have always been a fan of the show, but this season is trying my patience. This twisted, convoluted River Song storyline is disappearing up its own arse. A work colleague (her boys where big fans of the RTD era) have stopped watching WHO-they can't follow the stories now. I doubt that this is not uncommon. RTD (faults accepted) brought WHO to the mainstream but the way the programme is going it will end up being marginalised-for 'freaks & geeks' as my non-fan mates put it. More solid, stand alone stories are definitely required. A character Mel pop ups, who, of course, has been integral in Amy/Rorys life but we have never heard of suddenly appears-and she is River?!? WTF. There also seem to be zero emotional connection between the three. When a mother has a child snatched from her, I would assume she would be an emotional wreck-don't get that at all from Amy. There has been little thought given to the actual implications of the Amy&Rory/Song relationship. Do they actually care about each other?-I don't know if it's just bad acting but it's not clear. When we saw the montage of Mel growing up in Leadworth-the fact that her friends where actually her parents and the feelings that would stir was not even mentioned!?! Matt Smith could be a great Doc, if he was given more to do than prat falls and funny lines. Moffat must try harder to bring the Doc to the forefront. The Doc needs to be the one that holds everything together-not a gurning clown. I REALLY don't want to sound so negative-but I just worry about the shows future if it stays in it's current form.....

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:19 a.m. CST

    And the whole Mels sequence also

    by HornOrSilk

    Shows how she was brainwashed to believe everything bad which happened in the universe was due to the Doctor's fault. It was a kind of theology, even. Think about how many people ask why did God allow X to happen. Why did the Doctor let X to happen. If the Doctor were good, he would not allow it to happen. So the Doctor must be evil. See? It was an important sequence. The problem is we didn't have any notion of Mels last season. But... In this universe, time has been rewritten.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:20 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima

    by HornOrSilk

    We are told the Doctor's death is a "fixed point in time." Think of fake station. The Doctor is using it for his own advantage. He knows River will try to kill him. He knows he is going to die. So he knows what he can do to change it around, to make it look like he died. Think the death of Sherlock Holmes.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:22 a.m. CST

    continued from the last one to hideo

    by HornOrSilk

    What do I mean about the death of Sherlock Holmes? Once Watson thought he died, Sherlock was then able to be free to do what he needed to take out Moriarty's gang. The Doctor, once confirmed dead (especially by River), can then become free to deal with the Silence.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:23 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk: nice thought on the theosophy angle...

    by Hideo Kojima

    didn't think about that at all and makes sense since she working for that church..

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:26 a.m. CST

    Yes, the theology angle works in many ways

    by HornOrSilk

    And just as the death of Christ (by many Christians) is seen as the answer to Job's objections, so the Doctor willing to die for _her_, River, once she realized she was River, made her into a convert.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:31 a.m. CST

    Riversong Regens

    by Hideo Kojima

    Baby Pond -> Girl in NYC -> Mels -> River Song Did the original version (Baby Pond) kill the doctor? or was it the girl in NYC? These are the only known regenerations. thoughts?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:35 a.m. CST

    the rating.

    by emeraldboy

    let me try and explain. i did think last nights episode was very good indeed. visually I thought it was stunning stuff and terselecta were an interesting villain. but what stopped me from giving it a full five stars was the writing which i though was sloppy. but at least we know that with the Silence its a what and not whom and that it is some kind of religious movement. and that its very old. indeed. but my friend and I agree on thing its time to end the river song saga.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:37 a.m. CST

    cerebus

    by welshguy

    Can't see Moffatt being a fan of 'Meet Dave' but probably a 70s/80scomic strip called The Numbskulls from british comic The Dandy

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:39 a.m. CST

    somethign more on religion and this season of who

    by Hideo Kojima

    No one utters the Doctor's true name, much the same as in Jewish tradition that you should not pronounce the name of God, the tetragrammaton. The Doctor's name is said to be magical and in ancient times the concept that words and incantations could alter reality was commonplace.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:42 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Hideo Kojima

    ahh so you believe the good Doctor is playin' the long con, huh?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:44 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm not sure River killed the Doctor, yet. Or if did, which version of her. We will find out.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:45 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima the Ghost Train

    by HornOrSilk

    It is quite possible. Rule #1. The Doctor lies.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:46 a.m. CST

    Theology of Let's

    by HornOrSilk

    Ok, all the comments here has made me do a very brief post on my personal blog about the theological allegory one can see in Let's Kill Hitler.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:50 a.m. CST

    Theology of Let's Kill Hitler

    by HornOrSilk

    Dang, I hit the wrong key... What I was going to say, I did a post on my personal blog (rather than the group blog I normally write on with sophisticated posts). My "personal blog" is quick, usually not much put on it, just random junk for the most part. However, with too much to write on to explain the story to the non-Who fan, I decided it was best to post my "theological" interpretation on the personal blog, with this post: http://tinyurl.com/3qcnogr It's done quickly, based upon the conversation here. But I thought it was worth writing.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    MINOR quibble with Let's Kill Hitler

    by Hideo Kojima

    Hitler gets shoved into a wardrobe and is never heard from again. I can only assume he went to Narnia.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    How can River regenerate?

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    I'm still not clear on how River can regenerate, How could the silence possibly give Melody pond the powers of regeneration!? This is ridiculous! There was some mention in the ep that she was " a child of the tardis" possibly bearing into question the possibiity that she was imbued with the Tardis energy as well?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    The Doctor's 30mins of remaining life

    by supertoyslast

    There seems to be a 20-minute-ish gap between the Doctor learning he's been poisoned and his re-emergence from the Tardis. I'm guessing that 'fish fingers and custard' will be important. As will the wedding suit and Amy Pond's 'schedule'. What the Doctor did in those 20 minutes will no doubt be explained in The Wedding Of River Song. Much like the Doctor visited Amy at different points in her life at the end of the previous series. Although hopefully not too much like it, as I'd hate to see timey-wimey narrative tricks being repeated. The more I think about the current series, the more I think I would have preferred the Silence/Death of the Doctor arc to have been told in one continuous 6-part story in one half of the split-series with standalone stories for the other 7-episode half. I just prefer a continuing story to be told in one go without being interrupted by standalones and I prefer standalones when they don't have constant nods to a story arc.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:57 a.m. CST

    candy ass monkey suit

    by HornOrSilk

    Being conceived and born in the TARDIS seems to have given her the ability to regenerate. We are never told how the Time Lords get that ability; perhaps _this_ is how they are given it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:58 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima- about Hitler

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, we don't know what happened to Hitler. Perhaps we will find out later in the season? I do think one scene of him getting out would have been nice, but I can understand, with time constraints, why they didn't.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:01 a.m. CST

    hideo kojima -- religion

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, throughout the new Doctor Who series, we have been glimpses of the Doctor as a kind of "lonely God." The religion element has been there quite a bit as an undercurrent. He even faced the devil!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:57 a.m. CST

    What will happen is at some point....

    by emeraldboy

    we will see at some point the scene with the impossible astronaut striking the time lord dead as madame kovarian puts it. then the dr will regenerate. and then the next thing we will see is a to be continued card..... this will give the bbc plenty of time to hire the next dr or they will have hired the new actor just in time to replace smith. but not tell the public. when smith was hired the backlash was immense, despite the small pockets of tennants lovers, smith has turned out to be a very good dr. indeed. i just wish the writers would stand up to the plate a bit more with him.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:08 a.m. CST

    candy ass monkey suit

    by emeraldboy

    in a good man goes to war.... the dr asks who are you? to river song and she says but I am telling you..... and he goes all giddy.... this made me think that the dr had some kind of dalliance with river song or that they were married. she is from the gamma forrest and she said to amy there is no name for pond in the gama forrest. so her name translated is river song. the precise location of melody pond's conception is unknown and who was involved in it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Question still not answered

    by TheFerretLives

    How come Mels aged at the same rate as Amy and Rory? I'm sure Timelords grow up, we've seen the master as a child and heard about him and the Doctor when they were children but do they age at the same rate as humans? Did Mels age at that rate because she is half human? Confusingly though didn't she say she became a toddler in New York? Did the Silence and Kevorian do something to her to allow her to age like that so she could get into Amy and Rory's life? But did they just let her go and get on with it because in TIA she appeared to escape the suit and then end up in New York all by herself. F

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:30 a.m. CST

    River and the TARDIS

    by HornOrSilk

    BTW, I expect, before coming back, River was in the TARDIS doing all kinds of exploration while the TARDIS was showing her the universe. Perhaps the finale, is in part, connected to what River did to "change history." And I'm trying to remember the line from Angels; did River say the Doctor was sick when she was learning to pilot the TARDIS?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:32 a.m. CST

    theferretlives

    by HornOrSilk

    Time Lords do seem to age the same rate as children.. see.. Susan... But something I found interesting; there is a notion that they can actually change their age/look at will. Or at least River can. She said she would age in reverse at times to confuse everyone.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:37 a.m. CST

    About to watch again ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    So far I have only one gripe. I mean, yes, Mels plunked in as she was gives me the shits, but that's not it. I was frankly grateful to see her pull her mask off and become River because, heck, I'm a sucker for River. Which is to say, back off, SJW, and take your damned Amy Pond with you. I'm for an all-River season a la Romana, or even for River replacing the Doctor for a season. After all, he is dead. But the thing that I find lazy, that really pisses me off, and that I just could not stand one more freaking time, is time-travelling-shape-shifting-super-beings-we-never-heard-of. I mean, where was the Tessellector in the Time War? How come it thinks River is a worse criminal than Hitler, Davros, Stalin, Pol Pot, or Caligula? How do we know it's a Tessellector and not just a Zygon pretending to be Prisoner Zero pretending to be a Ganger pretending to be a Tessellector from a cancelled timeline? Just to be quite clear about this, I would like to take the Tessellector out the back and shoot it in the head. And keep shooting it in the head until it is very, very, very dead. If my opinion counts for anything ... More when I've had a chance to grok LKH in fullness.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:39 a.m. CST

    And shoot all the little tessellectors inside it.

    by veteran_of_mu

    Because, fuck it, I hate fucking Plato's Cave and the Cartesian Theatre. Learn some fucking Taoism Moff! Okay, now I'm going to go watch it again.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:40 a.m. CST

    Oh, and ....

    by veteran_of_mu

    All the littler tesselectors inside those little tesselectors, etc.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:43 a.m. CST

    Regeneration disabled

    by Shugmeister

    I thought that was because River (when she was still Mel) shot the Tardis?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:43 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by HornOrSilk

    Perhaps we never heard of them because they are from a time line in which the Doctor actually does die, a time line in which the Silence get to make the universe of their choice. An alternative time line which is now interacting with ours. But more than that, they seemed like they might be Time Agents.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    And Taoism

    by HornOrSilk

    Lao Tzu's unspeakable Tao is the Doctor ;)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    shugmeister

    by HornOrSilk

    Regeneration doesn't come from the TARDIS

  • When Tiny Amy and Rory are about to get killed, the Tardis lands, surrounding them, Obviously it's external dimensions can be altered, I get that, but if it lands around Tory and Amy surely there should be a TINY RORY AND AMY inside the tardis??

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8 a.m. CST

    some of the story in dr who last night was

    by emeraldboy

    more than bit transformers revenge of the fallen. ie the first film there was never a mention or glimpse of the fallen. then come the second film. we have a character called the fallen and he is out for revenge. What the Fuck? same lack of logic applied in dr who last night on two fronts. one was the introduction of mels out of absolutely nowhere and secondly there was terresellectors. which i thought were cool. but still...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:07 a.m. CST

    Emeraldboy RE: Mel.. *spoilers for episode*

    by notspock2

    I thought about this, and to be fair, we;ve only seen very very few scenes in leadworth 2 (this is a new universe) post the crack being closed,and the universe being rebooted (basically pretty much the wedding) and Mel said she didn't go to that... Of course this leads to a few other issues, but since River is a "complex space time event" I'll let them slide..

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:10 a.m. CST

    notspock2

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm sure the TARDIS restores them to their normal height.. somehow.. but I get your point. Nonetheless, I think the TARDIS learned how to fix size issues through the adventures with the Doctor (Planet of the Giants, Logopolis, etc).

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:13 a.m. CST

    emeraldboy

    by HornOrSilk

    Time is being rewritten. The new universe has time being rewritten. There is more going on with that than meets the eye, I think. I could be wrong. But I certainly think we are seeing "Time Agents" from a time-stream in which the Silence win.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:18 a.m. CST

    What a fantastic DocBack this has been!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    A true return to form by all!!!! Great to have long lost friends return out of the primordial gloop, and some amazing posts from some new to the DocBack!!! 'Tis the place to be!!!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:21 a.m. CST

    I tried

    by kusanagiguy

    Hey guys I recently set up my own website and this is the first time I had a chance a t reviewing an episode of Doctor Who. With so much going on it was a bloody challenge and far from my best work my review is at http://cocaineandpopcorn.com/doctors6e8.html for Let's Kill Hitler. Could any of you guys give it a view and let me know how I could improve for the future Cheers

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:24 a.m. CST

    Sam -- welcome to the day after..

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm curious how you might respond to the questions we have seen coming. I've been rethinking some speculations as to the final. I am thinking the Doctor's death might happen at the end of "Closing Time." I'm thinking we might see an alternative Time Line created by River soon after she took control of the TARDIS but before she returned to save the Doctor. I am thinking the alternative timeline might only be a short sequence, ala an extended Pyramids of Mars sequence. River is going to be shown what comes out of the Silence -- what happens if they win. They will produce a great, tyrannical universe.. worse than what happened in the normal history, a history she blamed the Doctor for letting so much evil happen. Of course, I could be wrong with that.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:28 a.m. CST

    kusanagiguy

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't know what you want to do with the reviews. If you want it just to be your opinions of the episode, then it is fine. Of course you can add more features like Questions you felt needed answers (such as possible plot holes or plot points you think might apply to a future episode) Questions you felt were answered What you wish were different What you are glad happened... Things like that.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:33 a.m. CST

    Hello! SPOILERS? (maybe)

    by James Grinnell

    Hi everyone Been following these docbacks all season and really enjoyed all the comments but thought I'd finally get involved as (for the first time) I think I've noticed something that everyone else has missed. Just rewatched the episode and noticed that when they're monitoring the Doctor's health in both Hitlers office and the restaurant, the heartbeat shown (and I think heard) is a single human heartbeat. Now, there's every chance that this is just a mistake, but if it's not, what the hell does that mean? The only thing I can think is that it hints again that maybe there are two doctors going round at the moment, one of whom is less than a timelord? the more I think about it, the more I'm sure it's just a mistake actually, but there again...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:35 a.m. CST

    photoboy

    by Rebel Scumb

    To be honest I felt like Season 5 was pretty dissappointing when it first aired, but when I watched it again on blu-ray all as as season I liked it quite a bit. In general I think thats the better way for most shows, but I find doctor who especially, and ESPECIALLY Moffat's dr who plays best when the season is viewed as a whole, instead of individual episodes. Thats just my 2 cents.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:38 a.m. CST

    drmeyer- thanks for the info!! Seems the idea caught on...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...maybe Korvarian started a new fashion trend!! Now to unearth the pesky reason why she, River and the Doc have jammed them over their eye and I'll be a content man.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:45 a.m. CST

    @horn ... Not quite ..

    by veteran_of_mu

    The Tao means life. Try http://bit.ly/lao-west for example. But the Doc qualifies as a sage I reckon and has even kicked in a cool koan or two. In particular, from Planet of the Spiders, "The meaning of meaning is the last barrier to understanding". Sod Omega and the Valeyard, if we could have another snippet or two of Cho-Je I'd be a happy Whovian.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:50 a.m. CST

    In a nutshell (review/spoilers)

    by yrimpossible

    Superb episode. The first thing you have to remember is that "Let's Kill Hitler" is a resolution of a two-parter that began with "A Good Man Goes To War", since the Grand Moff Steven has decided that two-parters don't need to be confined to one continuous narrative (see Pandorica and Astronaut adventures). So, as a follow-up to the immensely mythos-fat AGMGTW, LKH is as equally mythos-fa(sorry, 2011) mythos-endowed. River Song has been a question hanging over Doctor Who since her first appearance (though to be honest, that question didn't occur to me until her reappearance) and we finally get some of the gaps filled in. We now know that River/Melody was the kid in the astronaut suit in the season opener; we now know that her crime is the murder of The Doctor after being brain-washed to do so; and we now know why she appears younger in previous encounters (despite them being later in her timestream). I might watch all the River episodes in chrono-illogical order and marvel at the gradual disappearance of Alex Kingston's bingo-wings). The real stand out LKH is... wait, for it... Arthur Darvill's Rory. In this episode he punches Hitler and a time travelling spaceship robot disguised as a German soldier. No wonder Amy has wetness for him. Matty Smithy is suitably excellent, embodying the Doctor's penchant for swinging from deathly seriousness to stifled worry covered by nonchalance. Karen "Fuck-me-eyes" Gillan is excellent as a blank faced automaton and is pretty good as the Tesselecta too (I kid, of course). The biggest niggle, and I'm this is the same for everyone. is the crowbar storytelling in the form of Mels, Amy and Rory's childhood friend. Sure, we didn't see anything of Amy's life betwixt her first meeting with The Doctor and the policewoman uniform episode (did anything else happen in that one... I don't recall), so chronicling the "lost years" made sense, but Mels' appearance is so sudden and bombastic you immediately question her credibility, making the reveal all too unsatisfying when it happens. Perhaps if Mels had shown up at the beginning of the season, shown mostly in flashback with one episode where she tags along and gets up to hi-jinks, then we'd be more like "OMG! Mels is River! Or possibly Melody!" Could do better. To sum up, or possibly to give it a score, Let's Kill Hitler rates a fine 9 out of 12 regenerations, which is pretty good... unless you go in for the infinite regeneration theory, and then it's rubbish. Peas out.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:51 a.m. CST

    asiandawn

    by Rebel Scumb

    Every time i see your name in someone's subject line, I visualize Alexander Goodinov silently mouthing the name in confusion to Hans Gruber In other words: Awesome

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:51 a.m. CST

    emeraldboy

    by Renee Knowles

    Huh? Who are you insinuating fathered Melody Pond/River Song? I'm really confused.

  • ....Or religeous content is akin to playing with sticks of old dynamite. I don't want to court controversy here, nor to enter into a debate regarding the morals and ethics of religeon appearing in a Sci-fi show (it has happened so many times before!! Even in Who- regeneration anyone for starters???) , but the danger of religeon in an environment such as this can lead to an eventual sticky mess! Big reason why- so many faiths and so many ideals that are interpreted in so many ways!! I would rather walk across a 200 miles long mine field than try and discuss a topic such as this, as it means so much to those involved. If Moff has began on this course, then it can only end....not well.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:58 a.m. CST

    interested_third_party

    by HornOrSilk

    I think one heart had already been stopped by the poison.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    The oldest question in the world:

    by sam jacksons wig

    and why the Silence have been here from the dawn of time.... Surely the oldest question there has ever been is "Why I am here?" Or it could be "Would you like fries with that???" All joking aside, this is the storyline in which we will be entering next season IMHO. To rush this into the next 5 episodes will definately not do it any justice at all. So I wouldn't look for any kind of answers such as 42 or "I'll just have the medium sized meal" at the moment!!! Oh and Horn- yes, Mr Adams ghost will be suing for copyright infringment!! ;))

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by HornOrSilk

    The Tao which can be spoken is not the Tao.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9 a.m. CST

    My thoughts on Lets Kill Hitler (episode spoilers within)

    by Rebel Scumb

    I didn't have a chance to join the docback yesterday, was at the Toronto Fanexpo during the day, and didn't get to watch Dr.Who until late last night. I'll just give my thoughts in point form: -A really fun episode! -I was shocked how little Hitler or his potential death (or not death) had to do with the episode! I hadn't read any spoilers but assumed this was going to be a huge time ethics dilemma episode focusing on that. Had no idea River was slated to be in this one either, so that was a good surprise. -When Mels showed up I was really shocked, had no idea there was suppose to be new companion this episode so that through me off at first. -I began to suspect Mels was River quite a bit before the reveal, but still thought it was well done though, and the girl playing Mels did a great job of retaining some Alex Kingston in her performance. -The craziest thing about this episode was that it downloaded so many answers out of the blue, after so many things being cryptic and mysterious for quite a while, all of a sudden we got almost all the current mysteries either clarified or answered! Not complaining, it just surprised me. -My favorite line: 'I was at a gay gypsy barmistva when I realized, hey, the third reich is rubbish!' -The flashbacks were good not just because they had to set up Mels, but also because it helped explain Amy being in love with Rory, which always seemed really forced during most of series 5. -I liked the minature people inside the robot, a very dr. Whoish type scenario and really well done. -The clarification about the Silence was also quite welcome. -As with any of the Moffat Timey-wimey episodes, I need to watch it again to fully digest every thing -I agree with those that think 'the good man' is Rory.

  • I hadn't seen this commented on so far, but all that talk at the end about 'the answer to the oldest question in the universe' Am I the only one thinking that the obvious thing is that the question is: 'Doctor who?' And thus the answer would be the doctors true name?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:03 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by HornOrSilk

    Religion RTD started it with the lonely God stuff, and the Moff has continued it with his "Church." It's quite clear, the Doctor creates a philosophical dilemma... if he is so good, and the ultimate force who decides what happens in the universe (think about Time Lord Victorious) ... why is there evil unless he is evil. The religious and philosophical elements return with the Doctor with his role in the universe (though he is not all powerful is a part of the answer, nonetheless, the other I think we will see is what happens if they get their wish and change history the way they think the Doctor should). Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with religion and sci-fi. It's always there in sci-fi. The question is how it is done.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:06 a.m. CST

    Sorry, Sam, I meant to just do Sam not your whole name up there

    by HornOrSilk

    Anyway, religion and sci-fi mixes quite well. Dune is an example. Gene Wolfe does it with a flourish. Babylon 5 did it. It works, when it is done without answering the religious question but using the questions for stories.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:07 a.m. CST

    supertoyslast

    by Rebel Scumb

    I agree to an extent about covering the silence/death of the doctor stuff as one continuous story might have worked well, I don't mind the way they are doing it though either. But once this big arc is resolved, I do hope they go back to more of a stand alone episodes traditional format like series 1-5. I think what Moffat is doing this year with Who is the most ambitious thing ever done in the series, and even in most tv in general as its very very very complex and involved and wibbly wobbly But I also think that doing more and more of it after this could dilute the effect, and this season will be even more special if it stands out from those surrounding it sort of the way 'the key to time' was sort of a special season of the baker years. I like the big arcs, but also adore the stand alones, and a good balance of both is the key, although this season I think the show was sort of due for an 'arc/mystery/mythology' heavy series so it has worked well.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:09 a.m. CST

    rebel - season 7 is supposed to be more stand alone

    by HornOrSilk

    Which I think is good. I do expect things will show up in it which will be picked up in the 8th season for a new arc, but as a whole, I think we will get the release we need after this season.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:10 a.m. CST

    As for the oldest question

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it will be whatever question Amy had in her head as she was recreating the universe. So obvious. ;)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    emerald boy, re: the 12th doctor

    by Rebel Scumb

    I would LOVE if some how the producers/BBC could manage to cast the next doctor and keep it entirely underwraps. Put them down on paper as a new character with a different name, and then have a regeneration mid season or at a completely unexpected moment, really keep the audience on their toes!! I'm still in favour of doing an overlap to, basically a 'the next doctor' type situation, but that it really is The Next Doctor' and not just a Jackson Lake type ruse.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:20 a.m. CST

    The 12th Doctor ;)

    by HornOrSilk

    That wasn't really Hitler. That was the Doctor dressed up as Hitler, with his TARDIS in the closet.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk, sounds good to me

    by Rebel Scumb

    Moffat seems to have a very good sense of ebb and flow and what the fans really need, not just in the moment, but later on as well, like a really great orchestra conductor! Because the way season 5 ended, I would have been dissappointed if series 6 had not been as mythology heavy as it is. The way they left the River stuff hanging, the Silence, it was some big juicy mysteries that needed addressing, and this season has really paid the promise of that stuff off in a big way. But it is also a season that is, for lack of a better term, exhausting in its complexity. and so a nice breather afterwards is definitely in order. And that will also make whatever they have planned for the 50th anniversary even better, because we'll get a 'the calm before the storm' with series 7.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Horn......(spoilers guys!!!)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....hmmmmm, interesting. The Docs death- let's see. We have had him die in TIA and again in Hitler. We have had the Ganger version of him melt in Almost People. No, I think that he will make it intact until the last episode. He has the Cybermen to vanquish in Closing Time, and I can't see them being responsible for his ultimate demise. As for the alternative Time Line- I think we're already there, and we've been there for some time now. Certainly since the events of S5. Even before TIA episode. How we got there remains to be seen, but things are far too hokey (lovely American word) at the minute, it's the kind of swerve I would expect from our friend Mr Sir The Moff. Remember, we have to return to events from S5 to tie this altogether, and I fully expect a resolve to it all so we can go into S7 with "the question" being the MacGuffin. But we've been proven wrong before.....:(

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:24 a.m. CST

    And can't anything be Tao????

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:25 a.m. CST

    I forgot to mention in my Lets kill hitler review

    by Rebel Scumb

    The cameos of Rose, Martha & Donna! What a great moment! and I love whenever we get ties between the RTD era and the Moffat era and in general when the show references its own long history, like the doctor's library card with Hartnell's picture on it

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:26 a.m. CST

    The Sun Makers

    by Rebel Scumb

    I finally got to watch this series, it was another great! Further proof to me that the Leela series was one of the very best of the entire Who canon

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    sam -- with *spoilers*

    by HornOrSilk

    I seem to remember "Closing Time" is only at the end to lead into the last episode. The title itself suggests it is the end of the Doctor's life, "Closing Time." I don't think the Cybermen do it. I think we see the Doctor preparing himself for the inevitable, and then goes and dies. As for the alternative timeline; yes, in some ways, we are in it. But I do think it will become even more unstable - i.e., what we both know will happen to Churchill in "The Wedding of River Song." And it is because it is the Wedding, I think we will see a wrap up of her journey towards the Doctor. Again. I could be wrong.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:28 a.m. CST

    And all that I said to Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Could still fit in with the Alliance and S5. The Doctor could still have led them together to fight a war against the Silence...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb -- about the cameos

    by HornOrSilk

    It goes to show - the room is open for Donna to come back one last time. I think it is a must.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    by protocol417

    by emeraldboy

    yes it is confusing... on the one hand they are saying that river song is the daughter of amy and rory. but if you look at the moment after river says but I am telling you. he goes very giddy and then tells river to wrap things up and heads for the tardis. and vanishs. then river tells amy and rory that she really is melody pond. the dr figures out that river's conception happened on amy and rory's honeymoon. but that moment between river and the dr is interesting.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:34 a.m. CST

    emeraldboy

    by Renee Knowles

    Why? Wouldn't you have a very similar reaction if you found out that the mysterious woman whom you've kissed and had a bit of a thing for is the child of your best friend and her husband? Especially how much this hints towards his future? A family in the TARDIS. What's the alternative that you're thinking of?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:35 a.m. CST

    i was going to go bed early last night...

    by emeraldboy

    then I saw pulp live on tv from reading 2011 and that is nothing short of epic. awesome. its on youtube.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:35 a.m. CST

    indeed horn

    by Rebel Scumb

    i still always wonder if there will be more explanation about the mysterious Timelord woman from 'the end of time'. when that aired it always felt like a setup for something coming in the Moffat era, and since RTD knew that was his last episode, and he and Moff were coordinating the transition, it seems like they wouldn't have put something like that in for no reason. But I also know that story was rewritten a few times, and the Rani was suppose to be in it at one point, so it could just be something that is mysterious due to too many drafts. It's been so long since that episode now, calling back to it might seem strange, especially since so many new viewers jumped on with Matt Smith.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:36 a.m. CST

    Whoops

    by Renee Knowles

    I've been forgetting to mark my posts with *spoilers*. I'm very out of practice! :S

  • Had the walk, the baring and costume all perfect

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:38 a.m. CST

    any thoughts on my 'oldest question' theory?

    by Rebel Scumb

    Apologies if someone already proposed that before me

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Rebel -- the Doctor's true name

    by HornOrSilk

    It could work in the new universe, perhaps, but I somehow doubt that is the question.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:43 a.m. CST

    HEEEEYYY Merrick!!!

    by Perigee

    C'mon, then - let's have the review, post-partum: whaddya think?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:58 a.m. CST

    Enjoyed alot about the episode, BUT

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    I was kind of hoping Mels was going to be end up being a new replacement companion. Sort of a modern Ace. And I'm really done with the River stuff now, Can we get it wrapped up and go back to the random adventures?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10 a.m. CST

    Rebel- re: your theory....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...the Doc is to all intents and purposes 909 years old(ish) (or 1108 depending on what you believe..), and even though he has travelled the length and breadth of time and space I just can't see that as being the oldest question in the Universe. It is certainly a mystery, yes, but to what end? The power of words? That's ooooold magic (click of the teeth..)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:07 a.m. CST

    Right Then

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Watched that and wasn't hugely enamoured :- Firstly we have the Doctor dying and then by being a clever clogs not dying --- familiar trope even from this season !! Then we have the comedy of landing in somebody importants office. Seen that this season also. I also thought that the bits that got River to were River the River we know now were a bit too rushed and matter of fact. All in all an uneven and overly complicated story. I think the first episode of the season , this one, and the last will bring it all together , but in the meantime its just a bit overly complicated at the moment. Here's a timey wimey piece for you. When the Doctor got killed in this seasons opener one of our alien ( you will forget all about this ) characters was around which means that to the main characters things may not quite be what they see. And there is a lot we don't see in some scenes. So what are the odds that the Doctor we see revived in Lets Kill Hitler is actually the Doctor who was killed in episode 1 ? The Doctor on the pyre is the Doctor poisoned by River -- and of course for that to all work the poisoned Doctor can't be the real Doctor but the ganger.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:16 a.m. CST

    Horn- closing time.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...just took the title to be the penultimate of the series and not actually the Docs death. Sure, he knows he is going to it (as his conversation with James Cordens Craig proves.."My time is running out...") but he has one last mystery to solve (sounds like scooby doo!!) and adventure to have before that time. I can't really imagine him just dying at the end of such an episode; instead it will explore his feelings as he goes towards certain death. My own thoughts are that you will see the death early on in the last episode, and the rest of the time will be spent looking at the mechanics behind it, the consequences of not having the Doc around (Churchill etc, and that Back to the Future vibe we talked about many moons ago) and how it can be rectified. And yes, I am of the agreement that Rory is the best man River ever knew. And his death(s) will be explained.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:16 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by kusanagiguy

    Thanks for taking a look. Mainly I wanted to add my opinions but wanted to write something that could inspire disscussion. I like what you suggested and I'll try to add them in when I review the other episodes. I write the reviews for fun but really had trouble writing about TV episodes. Doctor Who And Torchwood are probably my favorite shows and I want to do them justice. Looking forward to writing reviews about the upcoming episodes

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:19 a.m. CST

    Theory on the cracks in time

    by Elsewhere

    We've now learned that the doctor dying at lake silencio is a fixed point in time that always happens and cannot be changed. Somehow, The Doctor will change this and live, causing the cracks in season 5.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:20 a.m. CST

    The Question, The Answer, and the Return (SPOILY SPOILERS)

    by Perigee

    ~The Silence is not a species - it is an religious order, or movement. Their core belief is that silence will fall when the question is asked~ ~What question?~ ~The first question: the oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight.~ HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT. Hello, Stephen. Fark you too. ~LOL~ Anybody up for a direct challenge? ~The First Question - the oldest question in the universe.~ Well, first off, the Doctor is specifically targeted - in the Silence's opinion, if the Doctor is killed, the question can't be asked in a way that the universe implodes. Not just anybody could ask this question and have the universe shut down. It's not just What the question is - it's why is it important who asks it. ~The Oldest Question in the Universe~ The Time Lords don't predate the universe. "Our" universe - the Time Lord's universe. So why would The Doctor, who was born Well into the development of Gallifrey's society, be coded as the key trigger to destroy That universe? So... Who's universe would be destroyed? ~Hidden in plain sight.~ What kind of question, in what sort of situation, would "end" a universe? A universe of space pirates, and Talking TARDISes in blue dresses, and Silurian Victorian Detectives, and milk-bearing Sontarans and Hitler in a Cupboard and little people driving people-bots, and eventually, all the other bizarre things we've been promised in the last few episodes of the season? In the first part of the series, I did tell you that Amy was not there, laying down somewhere with a window at a fixed point in her position. I'm not saying I have an answer, but I sure have a suspicion. At this point, I think maybe everybody else ought to as well.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:33 a.m. CST

    Various replies on the Tao

    by veteran_of_mu

    Okay, while I don't want to blow my identity, suffice to say I've translated Lao Tzu from ancient Chinese into English. Twice. So let's start with Horn's popular translation of the first line of the Tao, "The Tao which can be spoken is not the Tao." This is simply a modern gloss. The literal translation would be "Tao that can Tao isn't constant Tao." In other words, your "be spoken" is itself implying a meaning for the word Tao. To lift a bit from the site I quoted, it is quite likely Lao Tzu was not actually Chinese. In any case the earliest dictionaries we have for the words in the Chinese Lao Tzu date from 300 years after the earliest known edition of the work. And those are the earliest dictionaries we have for any Chinese words. So ... sorry to trump you Horn, but really if we didn't speak about the Tao we wouldn't be speaking about the Tao ... @Sam's "And can't anything be Tao????" It's certainly open for debate! Here's the best I can do for you from Lao Tzu chapter 14: Watched but cannot be seen - it is beneath sight; Listened to but cannot be heard - it is beneath sound; Grasped but cannot be touched - it is beneath feeling; These depthless things evade distinction And blend into a single mystery. In its rising there is no light, In its falling no darkness, A continuous thread beneath awareness, Lining what cannot occur. Its form formless, Its name silence, Its image nothing; Follow it, it has no back, Meet it, it has no face. Out of time, immersed in the now, This moment in the tide of life. Hmm, reminds me of something ... nah, couldn't be ...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:35 a.m. CST

    2legged!!!! Bonjourno!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Oh yeah, I agree that things are definately not what they seem here! We are in a time and place where nothing is happening in sequential order, and even the smallest probability is a possibility. I am also of the thought that there is alot of things that have happened in previous scenes we have not been a party to yet, and knowing we will return to Utah and Silencio, and to war torn London for that matter (for a different reason?) re-enforces this! The master of slight of hand has yet to play all of his cards......(sounded a bit like Zap Brannigan there!!) And more importantly, I hope you are of the very best of health, and it's great to talk to you again!!!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:38 a.m. CST

    chronicallydepressedlemming -

    by sam jacksons wig

    I'm with you all the way on River Song, having voiced almost that exact opinion earlier in the thread! Going forwards after this series, she needs to be used sparingly, or I can imagine the collective sighs of "Oh not again..." from quite a few Who fans being heard collectively around the globe. Take care!!!

  • to explain why Alex Kingston looks a bit younger in Silence in the library. Hilarious!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:40 a.m. CST

    perigee - Yeah, what about it, my Captain???

    by sam jacksons wig

    Or are you hung over, you lucky man you????

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    Lets Kill The Doctor

    by Cree

    I think the Doctor who gets killed and burned (pretty final if you ask me) in TIA can't be the real Doctor, so it has to be a phony. He must be the Ganger Doctor pretending to be the real one. He pulled it off quite nicely before. If he was the real future version of the Doctor, than where is his Tardis? Why don't they go looking for it after the (Timelord?) Viking funeral? He has some other form of travel, otherwise he wouldn't be able to get from the Flesh stories to TIA story. I think River is framed for the murder of the fake Doctor which puts her in prison but she must be exhonerated later which puts her in position to lead the expedition to the Library and her eventual demise. If River was indeed in the astronaut suit at the lake, than why doesn't she remember it and try to stop it from happening? Because its not her. It is probably someone who discovers that the Doctor at the time is the fake one, maybe Amy or Rory from a future time go back in time and kill the Ganger Doctor. They know where to go because they were there and saw it happen. Of course its entirely possible the killer is infact the real Doctor himself. Hmmm...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:42 a.m. CST

    Sam re: Fanexpo

    by Rebel Scumb

    It was pretty fun, good to see everyone with their geek on. It's incredible how much geek culture has flourished in the past 10 years. When I was a teenager (in the mid 1990s) a comic convention was just a few hundred nerdy guys. Now its people of all ages, shapes, sizes. Lots of girls! and hot ones to! Lance Henrickson, Nichol Nicols, Marina Sirtis, malcolm mcdowell, anthony daniels and a few others were all there as guests to sign stuff (I'm not really an autograph hound, but cool to see them even from afar. Lots of people in Dr. Who theme costumes, sadly I didn't manage to find any classic era dvds which is what I was hunting for, the merchanisers and vendors seemed to focus only on new-who stuff.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:45 a.m. CST

    River Song

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Its interesting that the crew of the Justice ship refer to the killer of the Doctor as Melody Pond. Time can be re-written, what if the Doctor lets little Melody kill him so that the brain-washing is neutralised and then little Melody can grow up with Mummy and Daddy ---of course then River Song will never have existed --can't say I'd be too bothered !!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Oh and Hi to you too Sam

    by 2LeggedFreak

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:47 a.m. CST

    SO.. is the Alex Kingston the 'fourth' melody incarnation?

    by Rebel Scumb

    If I follow correctly: -baby melody is born at demonsrun -is raised and brainwashed/trained by Korvarian -at some point regenerates into little girl we saw in TIA/DotM -the little girl then regenerates into Mels -Mels grows up with Rory and Amy -Mels hijacks the Tardis and winds up in Nazi Germany, gets shot by hitler, and regenerates into the Alex Kingston Melody/River So that means there is at least one more version of River/Melody we haven't seen yet, the original one that was born on demons run and grows to (we don't know what age) until she turns into the little girl from TIA, correct?? I'm definitely have a Who marathon of all the River Song episodes in chronological order (from her POV) once Moffat eventually wraps this story up.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:48 a.m. CST

    Doctortom - Prisoner Zero

    by Dreamfasting

    There was another possibility: the shapeshifting thing becomes River after performing a psychic link with a vegetable-state Melody. Although I don't think that's what Moffet intends to do, one could imagine a story arc where Melody/River gets killed, but in a way that imprints a part of her onto Prisoner Zero, which redeems itself over a long series of visits from the Doctor to become the River we know later.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    so I guess the order so far would be...

    by Rebel Scumb

    1-Demon's Run 2-Let's Kill Hitler 3-Impossible Astronaut 4-Day of the Moon 5-Pandorica opens 6-Big Bang 7-Time of Angels 8-Flesh and stone 9-Silence in the library 10-Forrest of the dead So more or less backwards order, although it seems like her next appearance (which I assume will the last 1-2 episodes of series 6) will go after Lets Kill Hitler, but before Impossible astronaut

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Something else we need resolved???

    by sam jacksons wig

    The Lodger episode, and why the control room ontop of Craigs house- did the Silence know the Doc would end up there at some stage? And what were they doing with the life forces of the people lured up there? Hmmmmmmm...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:51 a.m. CST

    thegunsliner03 - cracks in time

    by Dreamfasting

    The cracks were caused by the exploding Tardis, but we still don't know what caused the Tardis to explode. Were the Silence manipuating the Tardis? Did River blow it up on purpose while pretending it was an accident? Could the Tardis herself have become so angry at River that it would decide to self-destruct rather than go on without the Doctor?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Any theorises on the 'Kennedy' time can be rewritten reference???

    by Rebel Scumb

    -Are they implying that Kennedy was a criminal and killing him altered time to give him justice or are they implying that at some point someone changes time so that Kennedy doesn't die? Or something else? Although I doubt this would ever happen, if they ever do an episode that deals with the kennedy assassination, it would be amazing to have Eccelston in a cameo, since the series 1 premiere 'Rose' showed that he was there when Kennedy was shot

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:53 a.m. CST

    dreamfasting...

    by Rebel Scumb

    Plus we still don't know who's voice was saying 'silence will fall'

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:57 a.m. CST

    perigee - the question

    by Dreamfasting

    The obvious answer to a question "in plain sight" would be "Doctor Who?". However, it's not clear why that would make it the oldest question/ Of course, the fact that since the Doctor "rebooted" the universe, is he now technically the Creator of the universe the show is now set in and is the oldest thing in it. It would be interesting if all these religious orders that seem to be popping up exist because of the Doctor's role in the creation of universe 2.0). So another phrasing of the question could be "Who created the universe?"

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - beautiful post, I thank you.

    by sam jacksons wig

    I was thinking about something I read regarding Tao and yranslated it to Who (and I am no expert, believe me!!) "That time moves in cycles, expanding and returning, does not mean that things never change; to the contrary things are always transforming, always evolving. To bring about change, whether personal or for the benefit of others, one must first return to the beginning." It just made sense!!!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:10 a.m. CST

    River's regens

    by Cree

    We don't know for sure that River regenerated from baby Melody version into kid in New York...there could be a couple of regens in between. We do know that girl in New York from TIA regenerated into Mels...into a young Mels who grew up with Amy and Rory.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:18 a.m. CST

    Re:kennedy. Spoiler spec

    by notspock2

    That'll be the 50th anniversary show foreshadowed then... "you'll remember where you were." Right- I'm off. Heh.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:19 a.m. CST

    Sorry, Doctor not following you, Doctor VERY lost.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    And the slight of hand has been shown again methinks!! the Doc didn't have a clue about Mels, or who she was, and in all of the adventures they have shared, why didn't Amy or Rory mention her once??? Because, the time line they are now in is wrong!! Completely different to the one the Doc originally met Rory and Amy in. I also love the double play on one of the lines Mels says as she is standing outside the Tardis wobling a gun about with the poilce sitens closing in... "And that's me..... out of time......" Oh yes Mels, it CERTAINLY is!!!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    I agree dreamfasting, re: the question

    by Rebel Scumb

    It makes sense when you think of it in the context that this is a tv show, and would tie the most directly into the show itself, as is often the case with Dr.Who (and shows in general) that supercedes any internal logic of 'but why would THAT be the question' type thinking in my books. It also ties into the fact that we know at some point River learns the Doctor's true name.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    kusanagiguy you are welcome

    by HornOrSilk

    If you are doing it for fun, you are doing good then :)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:29 a.m. CST

    Hello Benjamin

    by Rebel Scumb

    I don't really get this reference. Is she just being sassy, or is this just a phrase I've not heard before or am I missing something obvious as to why she called him benjamin?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:32 a.m. CST

    2leggedfreak -- Melody Pond

    by HornOrSilk

    Again, I think that indicates _when_ she became all bad ass and did all kinds of evil. After she took over the TARDIS (how they know who she is is via the TARDIS) but before she becomes River Song. In other words, we have a gap; she didn't instantly go back to save Amy and Rory, and even after she did save them, we don't know how long before they got back to the Doctor!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    So if the Silence is an order/religon not a species...

    by Rebel Scumb

    then are the Silents actually called the silents? or have we yet to learn their species name. I suppose they could also have been engineered by The Silence as foot soldiers of their movement

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:33 a.m. CST

    THATS My Sammy!

    by Perigee

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Rebel- not sure about the baby regenerating into the litle girl...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...possibly growing up to be her, kept in the suit until the events of TIA and DOTM.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Further thoughts in a bit, but my first response is...

    by Merrick

    I'd LOVE to see a series about that captain (he was so cool) commanding a chameleon robot - traveling through time and doing whatever it takes to right history's "wrongs." Sort of a TIME TUNNEL by way of TERMINATOR with some 007 spy/action/thriller action in the mix. Each week - different challenges (not every episode has to be set in a new timeframe - thus helping to maximize budget), same internal miniature crew weekly w/ guest performers encountered via the outside world. Our little folks can interact with the real world in proper size, and also bring miniaturized folks from the outside world into their own environ. Issues like "Who determines what should and should not happen in history?" and the pressures of being judge, jury, and punisher/executioner can come to bear when they find that targets aren't as altogether horrible (or are more accessible) than the rotten jerks they expected to find. And, for good measure, our robot crew can be drafted as super-agents from time to time - maybe not on a "giving them hell mission," but using their capacities in more of thriller mode (infiltrate "X" place towards "X" ends, correct "X" matter before "X" happens, etc). More thoughts directly related to "Let's Kill Hitler" momentarily - just wanted to share what I woke up thinking about this morning. Sure, MEET DAVE does come to mind...but...whatever. I did *really* like "Let's Kill Hitler," by the way - although I think I may need to watch it one or two more times before I maximize my understanding of it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Well thats why i thought Sam, but...

    by Rebel Scumb

    In LetsKillHitler, she says (unless I'm mistaken) 'the last time this happened, I became a toddler in New York City'. Unless the line is just awkward and they mean the last time this happened she WAS a toddler in New York city, meaning the time we saw her regenerate the end of DotM But (and my memory could be wrong) when the little girl starts to regenerate in the alleyway, doesnt she tell the bum 'don't worry, I've done this before' or something like that?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:41 a.m. CST

    I just checked it again

    by Rebel Scumb

    Mels says 'last time I did this, I ended up a toddler... in New York' Which doesn't really make sense because that would mean the little girl in the alley, is the young Mels (but I'm pretty sure that girl was white) and also, is she implying that the regeneration could also transport her to another city??

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    We have not been told how many regenerations

    by HornOrSilk

    We know that the child in TIA at least had done it before or was told about what could happen (being trained by the Silence). However, I think there are a few regenerations more than we realize. I even expect the Silence forced her to regenerate a couple times.... I also believe the Doctor lied. She didn't use up all her regenerations. She only healed him from the last of her post-regeneration energy.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:43 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb it's because

    by HornOrSilk

    She has done it more times...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:55 a.m. CST

    regens and lies

    by Perigee

    A good thing - if River believes she's essentially infinitely rebootable, as rash as she is, she'd run out of them before she realized it. Thinking that she's on her last might at least rein her in a little to show more caution for herself.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, noon CST

    Well I'm presuming the regens being used up...

    by Rebel Scumb

    Is to account for her death in 'forrest of the dead'

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    horn

    by Rebel Scumb

    which do you mean, with the 'more times' more times after the TIA/DotM girl, or more times BEFORE her? I can see there being more before that girl, but it seems like (at least the way the information was given in LKH) that the DotM girls is the version before Mels

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    rebel - Tennant would have been stone dead

    by Perigee

    In the library as well, according to River at the time. I don't think it neccessarily figures into the regen count.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:14 p.m. CST

    Rebel- Mels and the DOTM regeneration...

    by sam jacksons wig

    "It's alright...it's quite alright.....I'm dying...but I can fix that..it's easy really....see?" then she looks at her glowing hands in total bewilderment as if she had not seen it before. Also, the time frame from the end of DOTM to that regeneration is only 6 months later, so we are in the early part of 1970. if she met Rory & Amy as a child Mels, she would have had to regenerate much much later, or time travel from that point to Rory & Amy being kids in the late 80's, early 90's. So, what happened with her in the missing time frame, and who did the little girl regenerate to? Or was it merely a plot device to explain that it was the River character and that she could regenerate, so when we saw the Mels character doing it, all we would do was go "AHA!!!!! It was the little girl!!" Hmmmmmm.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Another option

    by HornOrSilk

    It wasn't River in TIA

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:20 p.m. CST

    perigee

    by HornOrSilk

    Right, the Doctor could have died there, too. However, I still think we have been hoodwinked by the end of her story with the Doctor. She didn't want to let the Doctor know she is a "Time Lord," because she knew he didn't know until later.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    Merrick.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... VERY Quantum leap-ish!! Having a robot that can change itself to look like any individual (Sam) with a computer that gives it missions (Ziggy) and keeps it up to date, having to right wrongs before it moves on to the next (the premise of the show.) With a bit of Star Trek thrown in for good measure (futuristic captain & crew with no doubt a bit of romance to boot). Pitch it to the network, my friend!!!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:27 p.m. CST

    refresh my memory perigree, why would Tennant be dead?

    by Rebel Scumb

    I'm trying to remember the details

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:28 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by HornOrSilk

    It was said that it would burn him out and all his lives would be sacrificed to do what he wanted to do to save everyone in the library. River said she wouldn't let the Doctor do it and lose all her time with him. She didn't tell him, she wouldn't even exist if he died.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:29 p.m. CST

    Rebel- also regarding the silence!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I feel somewhat vindicated here in my use of the term "Arse face aliens"- as I have always thought they weren't really the actual "silence" being referred to. I still think we'll find out alot more in the next series, along with the answer to the "question"

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:30 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by Rebel Scumb

    I guess the question also is Time Lord aging, can they control their aging (river seems to think she can) or does a timelord age like a normal human unless they are forced to regenerate?? We also don't really even know how that little girl in DotM ended up on the streets of new york since she was in florida the last time we saw her Still a few bits of info missing it seems... we're close to the whole picture though now it feels like

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Rebel Scumb

    Right, gotcha. I know a lot of people are hoping that when this is all done then the doctor can somehow save River from the library, but i hope that isn't the case, their story is so much more beautifully tragic if that is her unescapable fate in my opinion. In any case I always choose the path of least resistence with these things. The regenerations were 'used up' because that needed to gel with what we know of her later. The TIA girl is Melody, because to introduce yet another part timelord little girl into the mix at this point would be far to complicated in my opinion. But I could be wrong, I have been before, but when it comes to DrWho that is usually my approach. I also don't think we'll ever see that bucket girl again, I'm just taking it at face value that the doctor had already met the child version of her before aGMgtW

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:35 p.m. CST

    the silence

    by Rebel Scumb

    Agreed. I loved how the doctor was basically speaking for the audience when he said 'what is the silence? what do they want? what does that even mean?'

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    The oldest question in the universe

    by DoctorTom

    Where's the light switch?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:57 p.m. CST

    re: the question

    by Rebel Scumb

    this is the doctors darkest hour, when he will rise higher than ever before, then fall... etc

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    A good man is going to die and an impossible life will begin....(spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..which will happen in the last episode of the series. And we will see young mels again in the last episode along with young Rory and Amy. We know the time lines are all fucked up as there are pterodacyls flying around the place and whatnot, so yes, I believe this version of Mels and River exist in this screwed up timeline, and we are already currently in it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    I've also wondered

    by HornOrSilk

    What if Amy had twins....

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 12:59 p.m. CST

    Sam: I agree always a great sight to see the docbackers in fine form

    by Rebel Scumb

    and really disproves the notion that all geek chat on AICN has to degenerate into fighting and insults

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    re: rebooted universe/alternate timelines

    by Rebel Scumb

    While that makes sense to a degree, would that then mean we would eventually need a whole other resolution the River story in terms of the River we saw in series 4, and in the angels 2 parter in series 5, before all the pandorica/big bang2 stuff?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:01 p.m. CST

    SJW

    by Merrick

    Yeah, the QUANTUM LEAP comparison had crossed my mind - but I think some of that would be offset by the chameleon robot's ability to change into anyone as needed, towards any end (possibly even a morally dubious one). Much more of a thiller/adventure than QL - with more that could go wrong. Another element could be: what would happen if the governing body of the project was...under the guise of "giving them hell"...actually re-shaping time with nefarious design? What would our crew do? How would they respond, and when? What happens if their mission goes wonky, and the wrong chain of events unfold? I always saw QL as being about a guy fulfilling some greater purpose/end/destiny. This, I think, could be much more challenging - not as clear-cut and more dangerous in its essence. Just having fun and thinking aloud here. Not being serious.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:02 p.m. CST

    merrick

    by Rebel Scumb

    You could also have an enemy chamelon robot ship thingy, with their crew going around for purposes contrary to the justice department guys

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:08 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb

    by Merrick

    YES! Totally. Could develop into BOURNE / MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE with time travel.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Why We Haven't Seen Mels Before LKH

    by RogerOThornhill

    Universe reboots midway through Big Bang. Whatever growing up Amy & Rory had before that event has now be rewritten. Mels can't be at Amy and Rory's wedding because River is present throughout (dropped diary in day through outside Tardis at night)--cf. Good Man for idea she can't cross her own timestream. She could have popped up during early domestic bliss phase of TIA, true. Best chance to see her. Otherwise the beginning of LKH is the first time since the wedding that we are back in the Here and Now that Amy & Rory were born into.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:13 p.m. CST

    Benjamin" and "River was never hinted as a threat

    by zombieslayer

    For those who keep asking, that's the name of the main character in The Graduate, calling back Doctor's "Mrs. Robinson" joke in Impossible Astronaut. Guys like times fool trying to say River was never set up to be a threat sound like the "Lost is making it all up as they go along!" trolls of a few years ago. She even told the previous Doctor she was arrested because she killed a good man. In those words. Lurking in these do backs is always fun, very few trolls. The only thing that strikes me as odd is when folks get hung up on tiny details, or think an unrelated story thread from several series ago will suddenly pay off. They get me to over thinking things! Cheers.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Other Stray Points from LKH Continuity Fest

    by RogerOThornhill

    (1) River is not Prisoner Zero. Her jailers were clearly not Atraxi. (2) Idris played a major role in this episode: (a) she was behind the psychic interface that gave the Doctor a message ["fish custard"] that would remind him of the period just after regeneration ["hand lost in swordfight" would have been more on point, but he rejected Rose as the face of the interface]; (b) Idris ("she") taught River how to fly, because her psychic interface (unlike the sonic screwdriver's) only works with those who are at least partially Galifreyan. I firmly believe this is what Moffatt meant in the earlier episode when Rover says "I learned from the best" and "you were busy that day" (3) We know the Silence were watching in Lake Silencio. The death was staged so that they would believe their goal had been achieved. I actually think Mels did that one, although I could be persuaded it was little Melody in the space suit. (4) I'm guessing Tesselectors didn't exist before Bang 2.0 either, which makes me wonder where the new Cybers will come from.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:16 p.m. CST

    Rebel - Moff sez River's story is far from tied up

    by Perigee

    From an interview on April 22: ~I can’t tease but I can give you some promises. Answers will be given. We’re not playing at really being Lost. You will know what’s really going on on that beach, you will know the truth about River Song, which you don’t know yet…It’s pretty much answer, answer, answer in a way...But by the end of episode 13, new things will have begun...The great thing about the River Song conundrum is that every time you get an answer, it makes you ask another question.~ http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/22/steven-moffat-interview-doctor-who-season-7-amy-pond-river-song.html So, at least from that snippet, River's story is still far from clear, and it will extend to the next season - for reasons we will soon find out.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:23 p.m. CST

    Mels

    by DoctorTom

    Yeah, River/Mels said her last regeneration was in New York. That was 1970. Sam's brought up good points about how she gets to Leadworth in the 90's looking young. The 'looking younger' comment might cover that. If not, then I would expect time travel with the Silents to be involved, but the rolling back her age comment seemed a better way to get out of this (plus to explain River looking younger in earlier episodes where she's be older). However she got there (and I think it was with the help of the Silents, whether or not time travel was involved), the Silents must have wanted her in Leadworth. She knew to hang around her parents since presumably with her brainwashing she was also given valuable info such as her mom becoming a companion. She might have even been put there to help make sure Amy and Rory got together so that she could be born. <br> And, for the question that came up about Amy not realizing that Mels didn't have any parents - that could easily be covered by the Silents using posthypnotic suggestion to convince the people in town that Mels had parents at home and not some chalky arse-faces that noboby can remember...but I imagine there was potential for amusing scenes.... <br> <br> (doorbell) Ding dong! <br> PIzza delivery! Oh my god, what are you? <br> (raspy voice) We have paid for this pizza. <br> (delivery boy looks back at his car to see if he can get there before something happens, forgets about everything except that he's been paid for the pizza, and goes back to his car).

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:24 p.m. CST

    You know what will be a fun season

    by HornOrSilk

    It would be an "arc" but not an arc. A whole season where history REALLY has gone awry because of what River did. All kinds of crazy things happen to change the course of time. The Doctor and River (in her new, faithful to the Doctor mode) have to fix it. And each time they seem to fix something, new twists and changes happen in history. That it is many nexus points together which have to be fixed. The stories can be stand alone. But the nexus points interconnect until, at last, history is restored.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Will=would

    by HornOrSilk

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Theories/questions based on LKH

    by Dave Sills

    Many seem to be assuming that it's "little" River in the suit kills the Doctor by the lake, but why can't it be Alex Kingston's River? The killing happens in 2011, only the suit is from 1969. We know that she's been programmed to kill the Doctor from birth, who's to say it didn't happen AFTER she did most of her traveling with him? Post-hypnotic suggestion was mentioned to explain how the Silence made you forget them or do other things, so wouldn't it make sense that they could plant ideas in her head that would lay dormant until the right moment? The doctor tells the astronaut, "It's okay. I know it's you." Maybe it's Kingston's River, unable to stop herself from carrying out her orders - much like plastic Roman Rory couldn't stop himself from shooting Amy. On the beach, future River has been established as a crack shot, but when she shoots at the astronaut, she misses every time. Then she says, "Of course" or "It figures" (can't remember which) - because shooting a past version of yourself would create a paradox - if 40 year old you killed the 25 year old you, then you'd never become 40, so you wouldn't be there to do it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Rebel Scumb - about your timeline

    by DoctorTom

    It's not as simple as what you listed for the episodes. For TIA/DotM you have to separate young Melody from River. For AGMGTW you have to separate young Melody from the older River, and possibly separate the Stormcage River from the River that shows up at Demon's Run since the one at Stormcage seemed to already know what happened at Demon's Run. So, for order, we might have <br> A Good Man Goes To War (Melody) <br> The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon (Melody) <br> Let's Kill Hitler <br> other adventures we haven't seen yet <br> AGMGTW (River at the end of the episode) <br> TIA/DofM (River) <br> Flesh and Stone/Time of Angels <br> Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead <br> <br> still undetermined - AGMGTW (Stormcage)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    zombieslayer

    by Rebel Scumb

    Agreed, River being a threat has been set up since The Time of Angels

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Thornhill - 10 points!

    by Perigee

    The Doctor is locked in the Pandorica; the universe goes boom. ---------------------------- The Doctor puts Amy (1) into the Pandorica. The Doctor has Amy (2) - who has never seen stars, but believes in them - wake Amy (1) REBOOT ----------------------------- Was it Idris - or was it Amy? Are we still stuck in a crack? I just finished watching the last episode of series 2 on Friday, with a lot of ballyhoo about the madness between realities that somebody built a giant pinball to bounce between. A lot of talk about how reality was cracking under the strain of things flowing through "The Ghost Rift." Did Amy open a ghost rift to get the Doctor to the wedding, and she forgot to close the door? ------------------------------- There are any number of possible reasons why everything is getting cattywhompus this season, but there's no question that things are. The Doctor can DEFINITELY die. To close this crack/rift/whatever... and be dead. To One Timeline - not necessarily Both.. Closing Time.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    Merrick

    by Rebel Scumb

    A bourne identity with time travel sounds like a great show idea to me, with or without minature people in a shapeshifting robot

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    oh and thanks re: benjamin

    by Rebel Scumb

    I knew something about it was familiar but couldn't make the connection

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    Fish fingers and custard

    by DoctorTom

    I don't think that was Idris/ the TARDIS voice interface saying Fish Fingers and Custard. If you listen to it, the voice doesn't have any of the modulation that the voice interface has, it was much clearer. It might be set up for later (as was mentioned here), but it wouldn't surprise me if it actually were the young Amy telling him the words.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:38 p.m. CST

    Not having seen Mel before

    by Rebel Scumb

    I wouldn't read into it. Every show at one time or another has introduced a character and retroactively tried to fit them into the history of the show despite them never having been mentioned before. We've seen very little of Amy and Rory's personal life pre-doctor adventures, the wedding would have been the only iffy thing of her abscence and it was addressed.

  • oh well, I might as well post again. It probably won't show up unless I repost, at which point it will show up again to taunt me. <br> The Fish Fingers and Custard voice was a different voice from the voice interface Amelia, you could tell in the lack of voice modulation and the timbre of the voice compared to before. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the actual Amelia saying that.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    and, of course, I'm right - it finally shows up after the repost

    by DoctorTom

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    My top five performances so far in Series 6.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    1) Surrane Jones (Idris/Tardis)- the Doctors Wife: Just absolutely and utterly sublime, heart-wrenching delight. In every fucking scene she is in she grasps your attention by the throat and squeezes!! 2) Mark Sheppard (Canton Delaware)- TIA/DOTM: radiating cool more than 10,000 fridges, his interplay with the Doc et al is effortless and entertaining in every frame. 3) Arthur Darvill (Rory)- Let's Kill Hitler: Comic timing? Superb! Rory finds his voice at last and acts everyone else off the screen. 4) Matt Smith (Doc)- The Doctors Wife: he has been brilliant in every episode he has been in, and truly grasped the role of the Doc and made it his own, but never-more-so than his back and forth with Idris. Funny, touching and heart breaking. The best he has ever been. 5) Michael Gambon (Sardik)- A Christmas Carol: Yes, i have included this as part of S6, and why not??? Gambon gives his best Scrooge performance and manages not to ham it up too much so that the bastard in him is unbelievable. Which makes his redemption all the more palatable when it occurs.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    perigree, I'm glad to hear it

    by Rebel Scumb

    I'm not in the camp that is growing tired of River. And I tend to think the longer Moffat stretches her story over more seasons, the mor interesting her arc is. I love that she was introduced during Tennants era so even extends pre-Matt Smith

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Good point Dr. Tom, that is very true

    by Rebel Scumb

    Some sort of fan edit will eventually be done I have no doubt

  • Let's assume we don't have Amy and Rory along for the Christmas special for whatever reason - a primary one being if The Wedding of River Song actually involves her marrying the Doctor. The Christmas Special might be a honeymoon episode with the Doctor and River. <br> Thought to be continued in the next post as it talks about a different option and deserves a new header.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:45 p.m. CST

    doctortom, young amy voice in the tardis

    by Rebel Scumb

    I agree, I noticed that about the lack of modulation as well

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Could Matt Smith pull off having John and Gillian as companions?

    by DoctorTom

    For those not aware, those were the first Doctor's companions in the comics. <br> Given what we have seen in season 5 with The Eleventh Hour and The Big Bang, Matt Smith could make working with the young Amelia Pond work for at least an episode. Maybe not a full season, but at least for one episode. Gauging people's reactions to those shows, I don't think there would be any strenuous objections if we had it happen for a limited time. I'm not saying go full out John and Gillian all the time like in the comics, but as something to give people a feeling that warms the cockles of their hearts. (Also, shooting would be much harder if trying to do a full season with youngsters. It's much easier to do if you're only doing a small number of episodes. <br> So, if you want to have the young Amelia be a companion, what would the perfect time be? For a Christmas episode. If we see Amy and Rory off out of the TARDIS at the end of a season, then that would be a perfect time to pull off something like this. Replace Amy with Amelia for a brief spell. <br> If history can be rewritten, then maybe the Doctor can finally get back to that five minutes later and give her a trip, then tell her he'll be back for her when she's older. A young Amelia companion story would seem perfect for a Christmas episode (and who knows, maybe it will tie in with the reindeer wrangling that MOV seems to have been involved with ;) ).

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:51 p.m. CST

    np rebel

    by zombieslayer

    I should also mention I assumed even then that she may kill the doc.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:53 p.m. CST

    Sam, I'd agree with those choices for performance

    by DoctorTom

    though I'd be sorely tempted to have Dan Starkey's performance as Commander Strax in A Good Man Goes To War as a close 6th place. <br> For Arthur Darvill, I'd give it for the whole season. The point where he's talking to the Doctor in Day of the Moon about how he sometimes remembers being a Sontaran. Also, the way he gets off the 'Don't give me those blank looks' line to the Cybermen, and his scenes with his baby (both when he was crying, and when he called the Doctor down). The boy has good range.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:58 p.m. CST

    perigee- great use of the episode title there!!..

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...would dearly love closing time to mean more than just the Doc going to his death.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Fish Fingers and Custard

    by Kirka

    Could Amelia's phase actually be a memory of their first meeting - when the Doctor himself was overflowing with regeneration energy? Maybe one of the things he does is see his former self and get healed a little bit, enabling to do the other unseen tasks before returning with the sonic cane? While I too was put off my the sudden importance of Mels in their lives, I agree some of her behavior nicely indicates the brainwashing (because the doctor didn't save X) as shows how she had some time with them in an obvious non-parental type of way.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Doctortom- comedy with the Silence!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    The new Fall show by the channel that fucked up the Walking Dead and Mad Men.. ;) Or you could have Jedi vs Silence.... "You don't need to pay for this pizza..." "What pizza?" "Who said that?" "You don't need to know who said that..." "Said what?" "Who the hell is that?" "Who?" "You don't need to know who said that..." and so on.......

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Heh. Just remembered - The Doctor didn't forget the brakes.

    by Perigee

    No Oogaaaaaaaaaaa-Chooga in the restaurant. Tardis on autopilot? Idris is my Co-Pilot?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Perigee, you do hear some of the normal sound though, (spoilers)

    by DoctorTom

    when the TARDIS lands inside the Tesselecta. I guess the TARDIS taught River how to fly with the brakes on.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Loved the episode; Loved how Hitler...

    by Gherkin

    ... was only a minor element of the story. Young Mels was bewildering at first but then her obsession made perfect sense. <br> <br> Arthur Darvill continues to amaze with his comic timing. He has made his original throw-away character an integral part of the story. Also, I have seen a few interviews with Karen and I think she's a much better actress than we typically give her credit for. She is so spacy in real life that her convincing performance as Amy leads me to believe that she is really really good at her profession. <br> <br> Seems like the Kennedy reference and the Dr not knowing about these "new" time travellers is fodder for future episodes. Was shocked that Moffett tied up so much at once. Looking forward to some good stand-alone eps.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:41 p.m. CST

    Doctortom- performances....

    by sam jacksons wig

    gambon just beat Simon Fisher-Becker into 5th for his role as Dorium Maldovar. Only a couple of times we've seen him, but a great sleazy manipulative screen presence I would like to see alot more of. Without the overkill.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Oh yeah, I'd actually put Dorium 5th

    by DoctorTom

    then Gambon, then Starkey. I'd like to see more Starkey as another one from the same clone batch. Of course, I'd love to have more Dorium in the show, or even in a spinoff show (which wouldn't have to be about Dorium necessarily, but have him as a recurring character - maybe if the Teselecta thing became a series we could see the crew relaxing in the Maldovarium).

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Amelia Pond

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm thinking the TARDIS went back in time and DID pick up Amelia. We will find this out in "The Girl Who Waited."

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Of course, I could be wrong

    by HornOrSilk

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Fish Fingers and Custard....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...the memories of a dying man. He was clearly experiencing delirium as part of his poisoning, and as such would be prone to hearing/imagining voices and images from his past. Delirium can affect you in so many different ways, one being disorganalisation of the mind. I suspect that this is what occured; he heard voices in his subconscious become reality.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:51 p.m. CST

    One thing that struck me that I think will be followed up on later

    by DoctorTom

    The crew of the Tesselecta deduced that River Song was there in Germany after calling up data on the TARDIS. The TARDIS was listed as stolen. At this point, with the Doctor being the last of the Time Lords, would his having the TARDIS count as stealing or as being only fitting property for the last Time Lord? I'm guessing that the Stolen listing was to make us think the Doctor, but that River Song steals the TARDIS at some point (presumably after the fixed point death of the Doctor) and is/will be running around with it. Unless the Doctor can change the timeline. <br> Of course, this might explain why there's no mention of the older Doctor's TARDIS in The Impossible Astronaut. River might not mention it because she's planning on using it herself, so she didn't want to draw Amy's attention to it being around.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST

    That's a possibility, Sam

    by DoctorTom

    though I'd actually prefer an actual visitation by Amelia. It could be chalked up to delerium, though.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Sam -- as I pointed out

    by HornOrSilk

    They knew her as Melody Pond, not River Song. They knew her because of the TARDIS. I think between her entering the TARDIS and saving the Doctor, she had a long time with the TARDIS. In it she was still Melody Pond. She went through time and space killing "bad people," people she knew from her view of time were bad. But since she killed them _before_ they did their evil, she was looked upon as a mass murderer. Thus, she is criminal #1 in the new timeline.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    And I do believe it was Amelia but I could be wrong

    by HornOrSilk

    Nonetheless, the whole description of "The Girl Who Waited" suggests time is changed with all kinds of problems. And it suggests with young Amelia. So I still think we will see the 30 mins or so with young Amelia.

  • The Dalek in the Big Bang begged for mercy after looking up River Song in its databanks, not Melody Pond. The overall reputation would seem to be for River Song. Given the connections of these people, though, they probably have Melody Pond as the official name and River Song as an alias.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Back to TIA

    by HornOrSilk

    I am almost sure this is the Doctor's Reichenbach Falls. For a similar reason.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    Easily solved. The Daleks, like the Time Lords, have a better access to all kinds of alternative time lines and how they have played out because of the Time War. And, though Melody Pond is the great criminal in history for her changing of it, she is still known as the one who killed the Doctor; it's a fixed point in all time lines. And she probably did it in a way the Daleks don't know if she tried to actually kill him or worked with him.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Horn- (spoilers) The Girl Who Waited...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..deals with Amy when she is older, and the dynamic between herself and Rory.

  • Amy is trapped in a quarantine facility for victims of an alien plague – a plague that will kill the Doctor in a day – as the time-travelling drama continues. The Doctor can use the TARDIS to smash through time and break in, but then Rory is on his own. He must find Amy and bring her back to the TARDIS before the alien doctors can administer their medicine. Rory is about to encounter a very different side to his wife. Can he rescue Amy before she is killed by kindness? http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2011/08/250811182008-coming-soon-girl-who.html Oh well.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:10 p.m. CST

    Nonetheless, even if wrong with Girl Who Waited

    by HornOrSilk

    I think it is young Amelia. Somehow.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    doctor tom....

    by brian tobin

    in the 11th hour there is a VERY quick scene where young Amelia is in her garden sitting on her suitcase waiting and we hear the TARDIS "brakes" coming in and she looks around excitedly......it was never explained then and i'm assuming there has been a plan for this part all along.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 3:59 p.m. CST

    ....

    by Kevin Bolinger

    opinion has been noted, cataloged, and classified File 13...:P Everyone is surely entitled to their opinion. Glad I don't share it. Anyway, noone commented on my comparrison of TIA's suit and the Tessalecter (or whatever it is )

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST

    dreamfasting - Regeneration Disabled

    by ShadowTiger

    Good point, I had forgotten about "It feels different this time." I bet that's it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:22 p.m. CST

    Regenerations

    by ShadowTiger

    So, does this mean the doctor now has 10 more regerations (his last + River's remaining 9)? Or just she "used up" her 9 lives to bring him back?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:52 p.m. CST

    dc03

    by DoctorTom

    There was also a quick movement in the house that didn't look like Prisoner Zero. Some people said it was the Doctor during the Big Bang, but it didn't fit with what was shown. I wouldn't be surprised if we have another Doctor visit to that night.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:53 p.m. CST

    Merric - Tesselecta as series

    by Dreamfasting

    Although I like how often Doctor Who episodes feel like pilots for new series, the main problem with doing a series about the Tesselecta is that the Doctor basically zapped their whole mission with the observation that they are essentially just crossing time and space to torture people who were already dead. What I find odd about them is that they are an entire time-travelling civilization, one that seems to even have theft records of Gallifrey in a universe where the Time Lords have ceased to exist. I liked the idea that time travel was exceedingly rare because most civilizations that obtained it accidently destroyed themselves or punched holes in the universe (the first episode or two of "The Two Doctors" had a fascinating look at how Gallifrey interacted with other advanced civilizations)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:53 p.m. CST

    On the subject of Regeneration

    by Kevin Bolinger

    The limit was a law set in place by Rassilon, it was never a physical limitation. Before the law, Time Lords could regenerate as many times as they wanted. Now that they are all extinct, and we have our 'Time Lord Victorious" the regeneration rule no longer applies. So, given there is no physical reason for him to have no new regenerations left, we must conclude logically, that he has unlimited regens left.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 4:54 p.m. CST

    darthdevious - it's possible, but

    by DoctorTom

    I don't see the 20th century alien life support being anywhere near what was needed for giving life support to miniaturized people (though I could be wrong). For all we know, when we get to the finale and we see inside the helmet there might be a whole bunch of miniature Bruce Campbell deadites.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Doctortom

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Well considering the suit was a very early form of the tech, and the Tess...whatever..was from the 51st century, thats 3000 years of improvements...just look how fast the home PC has improved in 30 years LOL

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 5:21 p.m. CST

    State of Temporal Grace

    by MichaelH

    No one's mentioned the quick reference to the "state of temporal grace" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/temporalgrace.shtml) Moffet's fixed a continuity problem. After Tom Baker first uttered it in 1976 it didn't seem to take long for for everyone to regret it. Kind of ties up the drama. But I've always like how it was at least acknowledged several times as something that didn't always work. Now it seems it was always just a clever ruse, which leaves no explanation for why Eldrad's attack didn't work in the TARDIS.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:03 p.m. CST

    on regenerations *SPOILERS*

    by The Transformed Man

    I'm a little confused by the idea of someone being able to just hand someone else all of their future regenerations. It's like passing the rest of your life's worth of a bodily function to another person. "Here, these are all the boogers I will ever create" or "This is all the piss I would have had for the rest of my life". Or a lizard giving all of his future limb regenerations away. I mean, how would someone even know how to do that? Not a huge deal, just an observation. Still loved the episode. Apologies if this has already been covered.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:05 p.m. CST

    Doctor Tom

    by The Transformed Man

    Moffat said on the DVD commentary of "The Eleventh Hour" that the person running through Amy's house was the Doctor. But I think they goofed and had him wearing Tennant's shirt still, so it didn't match "The Big Bang" as they had intended.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:11 p.m. CST

    Regeneration disabled *Spoilers*

    by The Transformed Man

    Maybe he couldn't regenerate because his death by astronaut is a fixed point.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:12 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by HornOrSilk

    I think the Doctor lied, as I said. However, I do think one, while in the middle of regenerating, can give others a share of the energy. This has already been established: Christmas Invasion AND Journey's End.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:12 p.m. CST

    State of Grace

    by HornOrSilk

    It's possible it is, like the chameleon circuit, something which is now broken...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:23 p.m. CST

    River song full time companion next year

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    I'm guessing River Song will be the DR's full time companion next season, what with karen gillan and Arthur Darvill confirmed to appear but apparently not for every episode, i'm guessing Alex Kingston will be hopping along in the tardis full time from next year. Now we know how things start, it logical to assume that we will get to see "that relationship" very soon as Smith's doc is obviously now the one she had the relationship with.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:27 p.m. CST

    michaelh - temporal grace

    by Dreamfasting

    I did notice that little continuity patch and enjoyed it - although there is a part of me that would prefer it was an actual feature of the Tardis that was occassionally erratic. I always prefered the notion of the Tardis being a safe escape from the violence of the outside universe. I remember being shocked watching the ending of Earthshock (which I remember being a shocking moment in an already-tension-filled scene)

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Good explanation, Horn. Thanks.

    by The Transformed Man

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:40 p.m. CST

    @darthdevious on Tesselecta vs TIA suit

    by veteran_of_mu

    I thought of it the other way around. Since the Tesselecta can mimic life signs - and their cessation - the Tesselecta could have been the Stetson Doc. And it could have been the older Canton. And it could have been Amy and Rory and River as well. And it could have been the shadowy figure in the shack. And it could have been all of its own crew and all of the crews inside them and ... IOW the fricking Tesselecta tesselates like a tesseract. Which is why I hate it so much. It's a singularity machine - violates all the rules of the show and thereby implodes all continuity. I don't think it has any reason for being in this show and I want to see the back of it ASAP. Still haven't watched LKH for the second time. Soon.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    YW transformedman

    by HornOrSilk

    SM loves to play around with the past, that's for sure!

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    The whole new universe is actually all Tesselectas

    by HornOrSilk

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 6:45 p.m. CST

    DOCTOR WHO .......are you?

    by DrMorbius

    WHO, WHO ... WHO, WHO ...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:08 p.m. CST

    Mel - timey whimey question

    by JPKk

    Hopefully someone else may be able to confirm. Melody (Mel) is a childhood friend of Amy & Rory. Mel breaks the emotional log-jam of Amy & Rory's relationship, thereby insuring they will eventually marry and have a daughter . Amy names the daughter after her friend Melody. It would appear that Melody's brainwashing/programming is more complex than just kill the Doctor. If she kills the Doctor at the wrong point in time then a huge hole in time erupts.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:21 p.m. CST

    Passing regenerations

    by JPKk

    The idea of passing on regeneration energy is use in Mawdryn Undead episode of the the fifth Doctor (season twenty). It also introduces a companion, Turlough, who is recruited to kill the Doctor. Are these similarities/allusions to past episodes/clues ?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:24 p.m. CST

    mediat -- good catch with Mawdryn Undead

    by HornOrSilk

    The only problem with it is they needed a machine to pass on the regenerations there.. but it shows they can be used to help save others.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 7:40 p.m. CST

    sam j's wig--I wondereded the same thing

    by batmancw

    I wondered the same thing and I'm guessing from the line: "last time I did this I was a toddler"..or was it "I ended up a toddler"? it was hard for me to tell---either means she has regenerated more than once before this, and/or was brought forward in time to Rory & Amy's childhood in the late 1990's, just as she was taken back to 1969 or earlier to be raised in the creepy orphanage. That console that the Silence had, like from the lodger episode--remember the Doctor said 'somebody is trying to build a Tardis"--or something to that effect. So either the Silent or the Silence -as they work together, I guess, both-have time travel tech. As for the discussion others were having re: why was it Melody Pond, rather than River Song being hunted--IF it is young Melody in the spacesuit, that would have been her identity at the time she killed the Doctor. That said, i still think it being her, while obviously possible, is just TOO obvious, and like others, i wonder what specifically makes the Astronaut "Impossible"?

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:05 p.m. CST

    Mediat

    by The Transformed Man

    Nice! I have that DVD. Need to rewatch it now.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:09 p.m. CST

    Amy

    by Extr3m1st

    Hard to believe that there are still people that don't like her, Karen does a great job as Amy. Rory is fantastic as well. This episode was awesome.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:17 p.m. CST

    Melody Pond is her name.

    by Perigee

    If Sting went to a local fast food joint and shot it up, they'd put him in the dock officially as "Gordon Sumner." If Lady Gaga was pushing bad checks (as if), the police would be questioning Stefani Germanotta. The weird thing is that -wherever we are - killing The Doctor is such an Incredible crime that Hitler is a throwaway target in comparison. One gets the impression that Pontius Pilate would get pushed out of the way if Melody was on the other side of him. First the universe wants him Pandorica-ed, and then they want to Deify him. Holy Spock's Beard, Batman...

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 8:35 p.m. CST

    prestigeworldwide--excellent point

    by batmancw

    You reminded me that River said something early on about aging back a bit, cutting back on the age?-- i havent rewatched it yet, but i remember thinking that comment implied she had some control over the process, particularly early in a new regeneration, just as when Tennant regrew his hand.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:24 p.m. CST

    good point perigree

    by Rebel Scumb

    Sort of like how the church was helping the doctor in the angels one, and didnt really seem to know who the doctor was, and had river prisoner. Yet in aGMgtW they are working with Korvarian against the doctor, and also involved in Melodys birth

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:27 p.m. CST

    Oh Pond, don't you know by now?

    by Rebel Scumb

    The last line of the doctors, about how people can call him, delivered with a lot of charm and sentiment, yet when I think about it, its an odd ending, what exactly is he implying? How do people call him? Also, if the Good Man is either the doctor or rory, seems odd that river would go into archeology to find either of them, since she had them right there with her in the hospital room, and just gave up her regenerations to save the doctor. So could the good man be someone else? The head of the silence? The Voice? But then why wouldn't River know who it was in the Tardis? Still so many puzzle pieces to fit together.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 9:41 p.m. CST

    River went into archeology...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    to find the Doctor...or Doctors. Remember, she says she has pictures of all his faces. She learns how to dig for clues, find out where he has been, then goes there see him as he was. Makes perfect sense if you think about it.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:04 p.m. CST

    River being able to control how old she looks

    by Alan

    could add another layer to any future multi Dr episode. I know there was an explanation given in Time Crash but this could also be used to explain an aged McCoy, McGann, Bakers etc..

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:09 p.m. CST

    If Sting went into a local joint and shot it up

    by DoctorTom

    it would more likely be the Steve Borden Sting than the Gordon Sumner Sting.....

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:13 p.m. CST

    Perigee- Pandorica'ing then Deifying the Doctor

    by DoctorTom

    Well, you have to admit, after he was stuck in the Pandorica and let loose, he did cause a Big Bang, which would in a way make him God. <br> Or, to look at it another way, he would be the Alpha. The Church in AGMGTW incorporates the letter Omega into their symbol, which would suggest the opposite of Alpha, so the Church is working for (or worshipping) the Doctor's opposite. This isn't to say that it's the actual Time Lord called Omega, just that it's a conceptual opposite, if they actually know that the Doctor is the Alpha. <br> Of course, if they know, then it's interesting that they're out trying to kill God.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:51 p.m. CST

    Looking for their baby...

    by crimsoncinder

    Sooo. Do they continue on trying to get baby river back, or do they just give up? I'm confused on this portion.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:56 p.m. CST

    Alpha and Omega

    by Dreamfasting

    It's certainly an interesting theory and it fits with the story elements we see gathering on the table, but I'm worried that once you set the Doctor up as a godlike figure, you're writing yourself into a corner that feels dangerous to the long term health of the IP.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 10:56 p.m. CST

    The Time of Angels

    by The Transformed Man

    When River said to the main bishop "This is the Doctor", he seemed clearly in awe. The others seemed unfamiliar with him though.

  • Aug. 28, 2011, 11:59 p.m. CST

    A funny skit, for the 50th

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Some big timey whimey, spacey wacey event has just occurred, and while the Doctor is busy trying to regain control of the TARDIS, others materialize inside the control room... Amy " Um, Doctor..." The Doctor, ignoring her, mumbling about neutron flows Amy, " DOCTOR! OY!" he looks up at her, as the others also look at her. " Who are they then?" indicating those around them The Doctor, " Ah, right, that wasnt supposed to happen. Well then, um, Amelia Pond, let me introduce you to...uh, me, and uh, me, and me, and me, and, well, they are all me." River comes strolling in, " Now this...is my kind of party!"

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:23 a.m. CST

    dreamfasting

    by Perigee

    You're not written into a corner, when the point of the writing is to corner you to the door that is hiding in plain sight. A death on a beach. Season 5 started with prisoner zero, who came through the crack. He started the whole ~Silence Will Fall~ thing. Where did he get it? Could it be From the Crack - that the Doctor ended up going through at the end of the season? Fishy Vampires came through the crack. They were all about The Silence as well. Did they get it through the Crack - that the Doctor ended up going through at the end of the season? ~The Silence Will Fall~ - always connected to the crack. And now the Doctor went through the crack, and here's the Silence, in the flesh. And what is the silence concerned about? The end of ~the universe.~ The universe of the crack..? The cracks that appeared because the TARDIS blew up. The crack that the Doctor literally exploded into, seeding the universe with life... and perhaps, that life seeding into the crack, into whatever was beyond it. His universe. A universe that will disappear if One Person - The Doctor - asks One Question - The first question of the universe - that is right there in plain sight. A strange universe. A universe where River remembers The Doctor who never existed. Who reminds Amy of the Doctor who never existed. Or did he Just start existing, the cause and the founder, which is why Amy and River could remember him? A universe where Amelia Pond as a child becomes not a translucent voice interface, but a solid character. ~Fish Fingers and Custard~ - stripped even of the voice filter of the TARDIS interface. ~Because you're special. That crack in your wall, all that time. The universe pouring into your head.~ She can reach through the crack. Anyway. If Our universe knew God could - and will - wipe us out utterly, as soon as he says Abracadabra, and we could kill him, would we, in self defense? And if The Doctor realizes he will be responsible for the destruction of millions of very real worlds he created, would he die to protect them... not to mention Ghost Amy, Ghost Rory, Ghost River, all of which find their home on this side of the crack. Especially if he finds that his death will somehow eject him from the crack, closing off the rift for good? Hmm.. Well, it's a fun story, anyhow...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:30 a.m. CST

    Was just watching Confidential

    by Kevin Bolinger

    My reasoning for River becoming an archeologist was spot on, came right from the mouth of the Moff himself! Woo Hoo, I actually got one right!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:20 a.m. CST

    batmancw ...another thing, if she was working for the "silence"...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...then she wouldn't remember them, so who do you suppose told her about regeneration, Korvarian and her cohorts? And I'm betting that River is made up of the Doctors DNA in some way. Or why all of that "cells of a timelord" stuff in TIA??

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:38 a.m. CST

    doctortom -

    by sam jacksons wig

    I've met Steve Borden, and he is actually quite a nice guy!! (well, he was for the five minutes I was with him!!)

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 3:14 a.m. CST

    Sam -- The Silence

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, the Silence is a group, not just the one species we saw called the Silent. I doubt all the Silence have that effect on people. However, I can see the Silent being the foundation for the Silence.. they created the Silence as revenge for what the Doctor did to them.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 3:51 a.m. CST

    ShapeShifting Robot Suit Folk=Quantum Leap, with gay sex!

    by Ciderman

    Come on, you know they won't be able to resist, especially if it gets the Torchwood treatment!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 3:53 a.m. CST

    But given the SJA are finished...

    by Ciderman

    It could turn into an interesting childrens/YA aimed half hour show. Plenty of great science fiction, if not most, are in the short story format and would slot into a 30 minute window.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 3:55 a.m. CST

    Loved LKH though

    by Ciderman

    Great great fun. Although they are *starting* to use certain tropes, is he dead, is she blah blah, the way Trek movies use time travel. Lets see some new tales, not bogged down with the need for exposition about the meta-story. Lets kick some more Dalek/Cyberman arse please!

  • Come on? The flirting, the furtive glances... Between the Dr and Harkness!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:06 a.m. CST

    Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead... River Lines

    by HornOrSilk

    When you run with the Doctor it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try you can’t run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like the Doctor, but I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever, for one moment, accepts it…

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:07 a.m. CST

    The Dogs Bollocks :)

    by shibleybc

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:08 a.m. CST

    What that might mean

    by HornOrSilk

    Did River experience the Big Bang before Silence.. or is River there actually post Library and we have been hoodwinked, once again? Maybe that is a part of what she is meant to do; to get the Doctor to believe it just once...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:24 a.m. CST

    One for "Doctor Who?" being the question

    by HornOrSilk

    Reinette Poisson: Doctor. Doctor who? It's more than just a secret, isn't it.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:27 a.m. CST

    Indeed hornorsilk

    by Rebel Scumb

    In fact in LKH we even have the doctor saying it in a big bold way, shortly before we learn about the question/answer/silence equation. Starring us right in the face indeed!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:32 a.m. CST

    good to know darth devious

    by Rebel Scumb

    that clears it up for me then!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:54 a.m. CST

    ciderman - very soon you may get your wish, my friend!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Horn- it would be disappointing to find out.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...that the "Silence" group is only the Alliance. I sincerely hope that the Moff doesn't go down that route and we get something completely different.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:14 a.m. CST

    Just a little clarification on my Kennedy spoiler spec above.

    by notspock2

    Because I was on the way to Reading festival when I wrote it and my iPhone posts generally aren't that lucid.. Given that the Kennedy assassination was raised this episode, the same way numerous other upcoming stories are often foreshadowed - it suggests to me that Moffat is thinking about Kennedy. Also, given that someone apparently close to the production said on this board "23 November 2013 is a day you're not likely to forget anytime soon." I think that's also not only an allusion to the 50th anniversary of Who, but also the- JFK assassination which took place (as I am sure you all know,) the day before the first episode of Dr Who was broadcast Looking at the tea leaves. I suspect the 50th anniversary of Who will be celebrated by sending the Doctor back to the very nearly the date of his original transmission. I'd be amazed if anyone running Doctor Who at the time of the 50th anniversary would have any reason to resist the temptation. Given that we'vre already established Ecclestone's Doctor was there, despite what he's saying about not returning, I'm putting an early bet on this being a multi Doctor visit to Dallas.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Sam I don't think they are one and the same

    by HornOrSilk

    But I think one can be used by the other.... or both are using each other.. in different ways.. with the Doctor at the center of it all.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 7:44 a.m. CST

    i picked up

    by emeraldboy

    a titanic reference watching lets kill hitler. and that was mentioned in season one. about the dr being certain fixed period points. that was the eccelstone dr.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 8:11 a.m. CST

    What would be better than JFK

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor meets with a young and old C.S. Lewis with the TARDIS... a magic wardrobe and all coming out of it... and this somehow connects with the death of JFK. And Huxley has a cameo. There.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 8:16 a.m. CST

    The Time Agency

    by clupula

    No one else thinks that's who the crew of the Tessellecter was? I mean, they had the wristbands and if you listen to what Jack said about them when he first showed up on Who, it would fit what he was talking about. I think either they're the Time Agency or they're all former members, like Jack and Jon.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:34 a.m. CST

    Wow, great episode and does the Tesselator

    by sunspot_mike

    remind me anyone else of the "Time Haters" skit from the Dave Chappelle show? Going around in time and just punishing people who deserve it?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:38 a.m. CST

    Ugh, need edit function

    by sunspot_mike

    skip the "me" in the previous comment. Anyway, I loved it. The Mels thing felt a little bit of a retcon, I wished they would have introduced her earlier. But it was done so well, I suspected at first it might be a regeneration of Melody but then I was like, no it can't be because Alex Kingston is in it. Anyway, you could always explain away the retcon that she wasn't there the first time through and she only existed after Melody was born. Wibbly wobbly... Doesn't really matter, this is the Doc firing with both barrels. The acting and the writing are so sharp and exciting, it's on a different level now. Nobody does comedy, horror, sci-fi, and adventure in the space of one minute like this show does now. It's a league of its own.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:42 a.m. CST

    Caractacus's Notes On LKH (*SPOILERS*)

    by veteran_of_mu

    The entire opening sequence is accompanied by birdsong similar to the dreaming sound queue we last heard in Amy's Choice. In case you think that's just the soundman doing rural field, so is the little-Amy/little-Rory/little-Mels sequence ... which is set inside Amy's bedroom. Tesselecta captain to Harriet the uh, big-boned female colourist, ~get your fat bum up there~ - WTF? When the Tesselecta removes the Nazi's eyeglasses it uses the weird clawlike gesture Hitler uses to remove his glasses in the much-spoofed Downfall sequence. I think that's intentional ... so who will produce the first youtube parody of the Doctor Who Hitler sequence? The surname Zimmerman is of Germanic origin meaning carpenter. It was also spelled CYMERMAN ... When the Tesselecta captain finds out this Zimmerman is a war criminal he doesn't give him hell. He leaves him to the antibodies. Huh? Remain calm while your life is extracted - life is something you can extract? Storing regeneration energy, perhaps? The Doctor recognises the Tesellecta when it faints. He knows what it is before he scans it. This Tardis is a Mark 3? Well, the Doc has repaired it since it was stolen as a Mark 1, so perhaps that upgraded it. That would explain the minor changes in its external appearance over the years ... When Mels stands up as she's regenerating you can see there's no blood or bullet hole at all. Already fixed by the regeneration energy? Or ... was she shot at all? What shall that bow tie? ... WTF? Hello Benjamin - watching the first take of this reference to The Graduate it's plain that River must have been able to use the regen energy to physically stretch her hand - no other way to grab the gun without bending over conspicuously. The Doctor emptied the bullets *before* River got the gun. Not taking chances or ... timey-wimey? The sonic can disarm people wielding knives ... interesting. Your system has been contaminated by the poison of the Judas Tree ... well then that explains what will happen at Lake Silencio. The Doctor will simply rise on the third day, no problemo. Fish Fingers and Custard ... What did you say? - Little Amelia is no longer blank-faced. She has an expression on her face like she's just done something naughty. Sexy helping out? Time is not the boss of you - Rule No. 408. I guess we're going to be collecting rules now ... Never knowingly be serious - Rule 27. We don't kill them we ... extract them near the end of their established timelines - does that extraction mean extracting their life as was done with Cymerman? The Question is hidden in plain sight? Chalk me up for another who thinks it is ~Doctor Who?~ Never run when you're scared - Rule 7. I think I'm going to need that on a t-shirt. Doctor help us - and the music queue is the end-of-dream queue from Amy's Choice. The Doctor's whisper is not inaudible. This sounds like a job for audacity.app! The Tesselecta symbol looks nothing like an Omega ...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    ***MAJOR FUCKING SPOILER*** The Doctor's Whisper

    by veteran_of_mu

    I ran it through Audacity's high pass filter a couple of times to remove the music. Not a huge amount of signal is left but I'm pretty certain the Doc says: ~These Are The Bad Clones~ I've saved the filtered audio at http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?de54oqd57ojr5c2 so you can listen yourself. Amy and Rory are the bad clones!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 10:42 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - your spoiler!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    If this is correct, then fucking hell!!!! Another switch on us! Well fucking done!!! The Moff wants to fuck us twice! The question would now be "why????"

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 10:51 a.m. CST

    SJW

    by Merrick

    ** The Moff wants to fuck us twice! The question would now be "why????" ** Because he loves us.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think caractacuspotts is right at all. I don't hear anything, and, I don't think we are meant to. But if that is the whisper, it makes no sense at all in the story, which is proof to me, it can't be.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11 a.m. CST

    For an episode titled "Let's Kill Hitler"...

    by Hambone

    There was suprisingly little killing of Hitler going on, I was disappointed. I wonder if the Doctor who is shot dead, is actually that shape shifting Teselecta robot, made up to resemble the Doctor. (Perhaps, even piloted by him.) Hopefully, we're done with the River Song character for awhile. I just don't care for her.

  • Horn, did you download the filtered .wav file and listen loud? I'm not an expert audio engineer and someone else here may be able to do better with it than I could. As it stands the only alternative interpretation I can come up with is ~these are the bedclothes~ and I kind of think that makes less sense given the Doctor's dressed in tails. So ... if the whisper says what I think it says, this whole arc is inside out. This is to say the Doc and River are running experiments on various copies of Amy and Rory to figure out what they are and where they've been replaced with the bad clones ... Which of course makes me wonder just what's so bad about them. I mean they seem to stand up just fine as caring, courageous and all round lovable companions. If they're the bad clones, I don't know whether I'd much like to meet the good ones!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:36 a.m. CST

    SJW - River having the Doctor's DNA

    by DoctorTom

    Maybe she inherited a bit of Rassilon Imprimature from the TARDIS? <br> I don't expect the Doctor's DNA to be in there, especially given the comment in Let's Kill Hitler about her being a Child of the TARDIS. The time energy combined with being in the TARDIS might have some TARDIS DNA (if it has such) tied in there, with it being read as Time Lord. <br> I think the part Time Lord part brought up in AGMGTW was to allow Moffat to put out the explanation that exposure over time to the Untempered Schism allowed the Time Lords to evolve (over billions of years) to what they became, so that they could establish that it was the exposure to the time space vortex can lead to this. <br> I suspect that if the proto-Time Lords had tied ropes to some of their people, kicked them into the Untempered Schism, hauled them out and kept repeating the dunking they'd have evolved faster. <br> One other thing to consider is that you probably don't end up with Time Head babies by having just any couple copulating in the TARDIS. If Ian and Barbara had gotten up to something, I don't think they'd have had a Time Head baby. Remember, Amy grew up next to a crack in time and space. In addition to allowing her to remember everyone and bring them back through jiggery pokery after the Doctor initiated Big Bang 2, she probably has been soaking in time space vortex energy long enough so that any kid she had would be more likely to be a Time Head, especially if conceived inside the time space vortex (inside a TARDIS).

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:37 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk - C S Lewis

    by DoctorTom

    I'd just as soon not have the Doctor meet C S Lewis and have his stories based on the TARDIS. We've already seen similar shenanigans with the Doctor meeting HG Wells, and we don't need another Timelash.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Although, if we're going for historical figures,

    by DoctorTom

    I could get into the Doctor meeting Bugsy Siege in Las Vegas when he was building it up after WW II.l

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:40 a.m. CST

    That should be Siegel, not Siege

    by DoctorTom

  • I thought Amy's friend was going to be a contender for the Doctors next companion, then she had to go a change into Song, that's where the entire episode flatlined. They shouldn't call the show Doctor Who any longer and just change it to The River Song Show, guest staring Doctor Who!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    This season is kinda sucking.

    by DrPain

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Caractuspotts, maybe he said

    by DoctorTom

    'Those are bad clothes', so that she'd dress differently in the future.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:44 a.m. CST

    drpain

    by DoctorTom

    If you're saying that the season with The Doctor's Wife is kind of sucking, you must be watching the parallel universe warped version of Doctor Who instead of the series I'm watching. Say hi to Emperor Churchill and his mammoth for me!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:45 a.m. CST

    *whisper spoilers*

    by Seph_J

    these are our wedding clothes

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:46 a.m. CST

    Merrick- oh I know that!!!! :))

    by sam jacksons wig

    It's just fucking amazing that when you think you're even getting somewhere close, he goes and pulls the rug out from under us again!!! Brilliant I say, BRILLIANT!!!!! Now I'm going to lube up......!!!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:48 a.m. CST

    2 Thoughts + more.

    by m_Patz

    New here, so apologies if they're stupid ones/been mentioned 100 times above... i.) The Tesselator originally identifies the "blue box" as belonging to "her" - i.e. River Song - so at some point in the future Melody Pond's future self will lay claim to the Tardis. ii.) The Tesselator and its crew are there to "give hell" to those who have gone unpunished for their crimes within their own lifetime. As River Song is most definitely punished in her lifetime, imprisoned in the storm cage, it implies that she will not only kill the doctor, but also that this is not the crime that she is imprisoned for. If so, is it Rory that she will kill too? I said they might be stupid. Finally, other things that keep going round my head. Only useful presuming the Doctor doesn't die, has he now gained River's regenerations - allowing him to progress beyond his theoretical maximum allowed regenerations? We now know that a regenerating timelord can rekindle the life of a dead one. So could an earlier version of River/Melody bring back the dead doctor at the lake? Finally, if this is so, and if that person is either of River Song's previous incarnations, does that mean that it would negate River Song ever existing; as Mel's could never regenerate into River? Again, I said they might be stupid.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Caractuspotts

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think we were supposed to hear anything, and what we hear is just a distortion.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:03 p.m. CST

    doctortom - there is a reason for Lewis

    by HornOrSilk

    C.S. Lewis, JFK and Huxley all died together on the same day. The very same day. Same year, same day. Thus their deaths should somehow combine.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Doctortom - thus from my Lewis post above

    by HornOrSilk

    I think C.S Lewis as a kid would be perfect for a Christmas story. And I would leave something in it to connect to his death, something which would connect to JFK and Huxley.

  • We learn that no matter where he turns he is not safe, and as a result he HAS to die, which I am sure will be another big switch on us. Now, I'm not saying 100% that this theory is correct, and we can add it to the 10,000 other ones that are out there, but if it IS correct, then the amount of bluffs and double bluffs being thrown our way is enough to knock us sensless!!! These multiple clones could still be part of the arc we both have already discussed. And we know that at Silencio, Amy is not real, so why not Rory also?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:14 p.m. CST

    r_patz

    by DoctorTom

    1) I agree that the Tesselecta let the crew ID River from the TARDIS, I pointed this out in one my earlier posts. The thing is, though, that Melody might have been piloting the TARDIS more to just the Tesselecta when she started piloting it. The TARDIS might have taken her elsewhere to break her in and get used to piloting the TARDIS, and some of the things for her reputation might have happened then (not all of it, because she built a considerable reputation as River Song also). She might have also taken the TARDIS after killing the Doctor - at least in the original way things were supposed to work, before the Doctor got information about this fixed point. <br> 2) How do you know that the crime she's imprisoned for isn't killing the Doctor? She hasn't been put in Jail yet (from the Let's Kill Hitler standpoint), so we don't know if that's why she's in jail. For all we know she turns herself in at the end of the season for imprisonment at Stormcage. <br> It should also be pointed out that in Flesh and Stone/Time of the Angels she was going to have the rest of her sentence commuted for helping out with the Weeping Angel situation. I wouldn't see a place designed to 'give people hell' as one where you're going to get a commuted sentence. For that matter, I don't see it as a place where it's like a hotel that she can check in and out of whenever she pleases (unless for some reason they revere the Doctor there, and there's special 'Doctor priveleges' that let her get out now and then without them minding too much, but making her think that she's actually having to work at breaking out.) <br> <br> On your other points <br> We don't know how many regenerations the Doctor has, if you take the comment in the Sarah Jane episode as a flippant remark. River isn't a full Time Lord, so she wouldn't necessarily be expected to have the number of regenerations of a Time Lord. The Doctor will presumably have more than 12 regenerations so that the show doesn't end, and he could have gained those back in the Time War. We don't have to take River's curing him as giving him extra regenerations - it just seemed that it took that much from her to burn out the poison. <br> Presumably a Time Lord regeneration might restart the Doctor at the lake. Good catch. We know that not just from River, but from Tennant's 'regeneration' in season 4 causing his severed hand to grow into a duplicate of him. <br> And, negating Mels might not prevent River from having interacted, since she's a time traveler and an anomaly. Don't forget how Amy was around in The Big Bang even after Amelia got eaten up by the universe collapsing.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    On the Doctor dying

    by DoctorTom

    I'm sure he'll come up with a plan where he dies and he gets better. I also foresee Matt Smith going on for another season, so even if he gets a regeneration kickstarted (or something like that) he'll just regenerate to look the same, like Tennant did in Season 4. <br> I don't see something as mundane as just kickstarting the regeneration of the corpse that was burned, though, that's not twisty turny enough for Sir the Moff.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by m_Patz

    With regard 1, maybe - but she's wearing the same clothing? And I know in the who'niverse this probably isn't reason enough to believe that the period is quite short - but I'd say that her reaction to having been taught to fly "her" is fairly new when Rory and Amy confront her at the console? And yes, agree it's entirely possible/likely that she takes ownership of the TARDIS after The Doctor dies in a timeline that sees the Doctor actually die. Which we all hope won't happen. Of course. 2) The tesselator is too early in Hitler's timeline, implying that they can't take people before they've committed the crime they're charged with - as she's not supposed to kill the Doctor til 2011, she can't be taken in 1938? At least that's the working for those of us who can't travel in time - of course it might work different for time travellers. But RS hasn't killed the doctor at that point, and so they shouldn't be able to take her, and they try to... so I'm going round in a circle and concluding I'm probably wrong. Agree that River may not or may have given him her regenerations - was just a thought, not one that I necessarily subscribe to as probably likely. In regards your last point, I'm sure that Amy survived etc when Amelia didn't because "they were at the centre of it" (or something to that affect) - if it was a time travel thing then The Daleks would presumably have survived? Beyond the one brought back by the Pandorica. Again, just a thought. Probably be wrong. Again.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Re: on regenerations *SPOILERS* by thetransformedman

    by MichaelH

    Moffet seems to be expanding on the New Who Timelord regeneration biology where, it seems, that a Timelord can continue regenerating within an hour of it starting, and they can also rechannel the energy outside of themselves. Both of these where thrown out there by Davies. Moffet is just expanding on them a little. The confusing thing though is how River knows to do it.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    sam the doctor must die, but sometimes everybody lives

    by HornOrSilk

    Just rewatching the ending of the Library, with how River is saved, still makes the Doctor can _die_ and still be saved.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    michaelh - it wasn't the Moff

    by HornOrSilk

    RTD did that. First with Christmas Invasion, and then, Journey's End -- with the half-regeneration and what happened to Donna.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Sam-- about the bluffs

    by HornOrSilk

    The problem I had with the Doctor saying that as a whisper to River is, if you put that dialogue into the story, it makes no sense. It doesn't explain why River suddenly comes out to accept the Doctor. She only does so after hearing what he has to say _for River_ and she finds out who River is. Then she has her aha-moment. The evil doubles wouldn't want that, which is why it makes no sense.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:09 p.m. CST

    it's already been leaked what the whisper is

    by berserkrl

    SERIOUS SPOILER: http://doctorwhospoilers.com/2011/4137

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Berserkr

    by HornOrSilk

    That doesn't say what the whisper said...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Hey everyone, gone for the weekend, just watched it! Spoiler

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    When Mels became River, they were talking about what a day it has been, and Rory said "it was giving him a headache. What if the headache was because of him being part Time Lord, and having some sort of issue about being around the regeneration energy? Also, with the Doctor wearing what appears to be the same suit he wore to Amy's wedding, what if he went back to that day to see when and if the Silence abtucted her there, and had her replaced. Maybe to stop it from ever happening, so Melody could just be raised from the get-go by her parents!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST

    @hornorsilk

    by berserkrl

    No, but it says it was a) a way to save the Doctor, rather than b) his name.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:53 p.m. CST

    Clever, funny, great Dr. Who ep, BUT

    by FeralAngel

    Please, Mr. Moffat, get rid of Rory and River Song, I BEG you. I'm sick of sad sack Rory and River's fifteen millennia are up. I don't care about her anymore. Okay? Aside from what she might or might not do to the Doctor, I don't care what she does. IMO she's a drag. I don't care about Amy's baby. LET'S GET BACK TO AMY AND THE DOCTOR DOING TIME TRAVEL AND THEIR AMAZING CHEMISTRY. Just my opinion, of course. Great show, this Doctor Who. Moffat is a freaking genius.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    And excuse me, Rory is "gorgeous"?

    by FeralAngel

    I'd more readily believe that he's gay.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    mj's ghost

    by DoctorTom

    It's just as likely he said 'I have 31 minutes of life left, I'm going to get dressed, go marry River, then go back and sort out the situation with Rory and Amy.' <br> I'm guessing that the needing to change clothes when there's no time for it is an inherent Time Lord thing, since the Master did the same thing in the McGann story.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:27 p.m. CST

    r-patz

    by DoctorTom

    -The tesselator is too early in Hitler's timeline, implying that they can't take people before they've committed the crime they're charged with - as she's not supposed to kill the Doctor til 2011, she can't be taken in 1938?- (avoiding the quotations marks as when I do a quote it sometimes drops the rest of the message) <br> River/Melody's a time traveler. Just because 1938 is before 2011 doesn't mean that they're not allowed to capture River. If it's after the point in Melody's subjective lifetime where she killed the Doctor, then she's fair game, no matter what year they find her in. <br> As for Melody wearing the same clothes while piloting the TARDIS, she might have had a busy day(s) running around in the TARDIS. It would be easy to shoehorn adventures in there (kind of like how the Tom Baker Doctor's first visit to the planet with the Sevateem is easily fit into the minute or two where the TARDIS disappeared in the first episode of Robot).

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST

    doctom- True, it's all about the fashion!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 2:43 p.m. CST

    River Song is the greatest!

    by berserkrl

    May she return many, many times.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 3:51 p.m. CST

    Re: michaelh - it wasn't the Moff by hornorsilk

    by MichaelH

    Right, RTD started it, but here's the interesting difference between Moffet and Davies. Davies just through this stuff out there. They were original ideas that helped the stories and fit into the mythos. Moffet though is capable of taking plot devices from the history of the show and doing original things with them. This helps me enjoy fantasy series, having internal logic and resolution.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:14 p.m. CST

    One other question from the episode

    by DoctorTom

    River is being tended to at the end by The Sisters of the Infinite Schism. <br> Time Lords had the Untempered Schism, exposure to which led to them getting their Time Lordy powers. <br> Is the Infinite Schism referred to a Schism in the space time continuum? If so, is it like the Untempered Schism (leading to the time space vortex), or is the Infinite Schism a fancy formal name for a crack in space and time (like we see in Season 5)?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    Or is the "infinite schism" connected to the church

    by HornOrSilk

    And a schism in the church?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:31 p.m. CST

    Clearly the Doctor at the lake...

    by dj_bollocks

    knows what he's doing... The Doctor at the lake has done what we're seeing now already... The big question is what happens before the apparent end of his timeline, that will resolve everything... We've always been watching things from the companions timeline... Not River's, not the Doctor's.. If the only way for The Silents/Silence (as evidenced by the one on the hill in sunlight - if it is in fact a Silent) to fulfil their Justice is to see the Doctor dead, then that will have been fullfilled in The Impossible Astronaut... Surely the outcome though is that The Impossible Astronaut can only be The Doctor...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:46 p.m. CST

    Or, hornorsilk, is it connected to both?

    by DoctorTom

    If the church is connected to the Silents/Silence, then there's certainly a chance to be connected to cracks in spacetime.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    dj bollocks

    by DoctorTom

    The question to that conclusion is which Doctor? Is it the Doctor from after being shot, being kept alive by the life support in the astronaut suit, coming back to shoot his earlier self in order to ensure that the events forming the fixed point come to pass? It would definitely be a timey wimey thing to make your head hurt if you think too hard about it, since it would mean that the Doctor in the suit wouldn't have needed the suit in the first place if he doesn't go and shoot himself in the first place.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 4:57 p.m. CST

    With the Silents, what is the purpose of the TARDIS they had built?

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Are they planning to travel through time and space, or having it built for someone else to pilot?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    doctortom what I mean is

    by HornOrSilk

    There might be an "infinite schism" in the church itself. It is not a schism in space/time but in the church -- two different sides of belief.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    mj's ghost - the Silents probably didn't build it

    by DoctorTom

    Remember from Day of the Moon that they didn't even have guns, they have other people develop things for them. It's more likely someone developed it for them (or someone developed it and then they posthypnotically got whoever developed it to give it up) than them developing it for someone else.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:03 p.m. CST

    That's a possiblity, horn

    by DoctorTom

    but for some reason doesn't feel right. I don't think the Schism would be related to the the Church that we saw in AGMGTW necessarily (we don't even know for certain that they were in that time period - we can infer it from River enrolling afterwards, but there could have been an unseen bit with the Doctor picking her up again and dropping her off closer to the time the Doctor knows she's from)

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:14 p.m. CST

    DocTom, I know they didn't built it, but had someone do it.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    But, if the Silence is a religion, what if they had it built by someone so the Silence could spread their gospel in all of time and space?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:24 p.m. CST

    A Pscrewy Idea?

    by veteran_of_mu

    In the Library the Doctor uses a Sonic that his future self gave to River. That Sonic saved her so that she could live on in the Library after her death. What. Happened. To. That. Sonic? Oh, and just by the way, am I blind, deaf and dumb or did we just see, in LKH, the Sonic Screwdriver get retconned into a Psionic Screwdriver? The point-and-think interface ... and Sonic is what it sounds like when a Scot tries to say Psionic ... All that needs to happen for the Doc to be saved after his death is for someone at the lake to save him in the Psionic. Then jump in his future TARDIS and zip straight back to the Library to return him to the loving arms of Library River. Whereupon the two can finally get onto a single shared time track ... So, yes, that most certainly was the Doctor. And he most certainly is dead. And that leads me to an idea about ...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:39 p.m. CST

    The Grand Moff's Meta-Plot! (Big Spoilery Guess)

    by veteran_of_mu

    So let's say you're the Moff. You inherited a show with no cannon, where nothing really makes any sense, and you love it, but you want to improve it. What's wrong with this show? Well, one thing that's wrong is that the protagonist is safe. Safe as houses. Lives forever, can break out of any trap, alter any life story, create and destroy whole universes without even breaking a sweat. There's not a lot of drama when your protagonist is safe. A living, breathing, walking, talking Deus Ex Machina who sees all, knows all, and saves all. So ... one way to improve your show is if you literally remove the Deus from the Machina. It's not that you get rid of him per se. You just replace him. With a younger him. Let the Deus saunter off into the Library with his Dea where He can be consulted from time to time as necessary. And replace Him with a young bloke. I don't mean young in the sense of a younger actor. I mean replace Him with a younger Doctor, one who doesn't know it all, can't break out of any trap, create and destroy universes, etc. An apprentice Doctor who's trying to figure it all out again with precious little help from the Deus in the bloody Machina. It's still the Doctor. Just ... younger. Knowing less than his companions. Trying to help them without actually knowing how to help them. And then you've got someone who can really fail. No longer a Lonely God, more a demi-God in a proper pantheon made up of all the incarnations he's ever had. The difference is this one doesn't have their memories. He's free to make new mistakes. And to fail. To lose. To be in real danger. In other words, to live.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Regeneration disabled

    by Shugmeister

    Hornosilk, I see what you're saying. And I agree with you - I didn't think regenerations come from the Tardis either - my most memorable one was Tom Baker falling from a great height. That freaked me right out. But it left him regenerating on the ground. But on this occasion I wondered it there was something in it, purely because I think we're being cleverly fed facts Hitchcock style; Mel shooting the Tardis being one of them. There are a lot of McGuffins flying around. I quite like thetransformedman's theory about the Doctor's death being a fixed point. That's nice. But either way, we're clearly having our attention drawn to the whole issue of regeneration. Which is going to become more and more important as we approach the last one. And we know how Moffat likes to think ahead...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:54 p.m. CST

    @seph_j's interpretation of the whisper

    by veteran_of_mu

    I think you're right, Seph. That would make more sense than my parsing of it. And would have good continuity with the rest of the episode.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    regeneration disabled

    by Kevin Bolinger

    The answer as to why is there, those that programmed River into a killer created a virus designed to not only kill the Doctor, but also keep him from regenerating...a virus developed by experimenting on baby melody...I.E. turning the child into a weapon...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:07 p.m. CST

    Re: doctortom

    by dj_bollocks

    But isn't that the great thing though ? It could be a Season 5 Doctor - Blue Bow Tie / Red Bow Tie, it could be a future doctor, maybe future Time Lord or Lady ? Or..... The mention on Saturday that Mels had been a child I'm sure wasn't just thrown in for good measure... The last time we saw the space suit a little girl was in it, so maybe it's what we've all thought all along... And I'm presuming the Doctor that was shot wasn't the flesh Doctor as it would have melted when he burned on the lake... Either way, the Silent saw the Doctor killed and that has to be part of what was mentioned on Saturday too... I'm sure there's a few more pieces that James Corden's episode will possibly introduce !

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:16 p.m. CST

    Could still be a Flesh Doctor

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Remember, the flash that survived was stabilized by the TARDIS, the Doctor said they were fully human....maybe only the Sonic could re-gooify them at that point...

  • Granted, in their minds they are taking "Melody Pond" for killing the Doctor at Lake Silencio in 2011--BUT--River plays a major role in some pretty important events, like restoring the people "saved" by The Library(and preventing the Doctor from sacrificing himself in order to do so) & Big Bang 2, for instance. Seems VERY inconsistent & in need of some 'splaining. Any thoughts?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:42 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - RE: Huxley/kennedy/CS Lewis.

    by notspock2

    i like very much where you are going with that, Huxley would be a less easy one to fit in , since the kids might not be so familiar with his work, but yeah, very nice.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Some VERY interesting theories...

    by dj_bollocks

    On the Guardian TV page... Guiltybystander has a very interesting theory in the comments section... http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/aug/27/doctor-who-television?commentpage=2#start-of-comments

  • So, I never interpreted the Big Bang 2 to mean that it was a NEW timeline, negating or replacing all of the Doctor's & everyone else's prior experiences, and IF that was indicated or hinted at, i missed it. My take was that it RESTORED the timeline & as i said above, Amy got some "special" privileges due to the crack in time having been in her bedroom for all those years, eating away at her life while also "pouring" the Universe into her mind.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 6:53 p.m. CST

    True, Huxley might not be someone even many adults would know

    by HornOrSilk

    But he could be there, nonetheless. It would help Doctor Who bring back the "let's teach history" mode of the show, but in a way which could easily connect Brave New World to Doctor Who...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 7:03 p.m. CST

    Bow ties again !

    by dj_bollocks

    From the guardian website... Bow-ties - the Doc begins the episode in a grey-blue one, dies in a white one and then finishes the episode in a red one. We've only had red and blue bow-ties together in one previous episode - Amy's Choice, which was about alternative choices and universes. I know - this could just be a massive red herring.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 7:15 p.m. CST

    Hornorsilk..

    by notspock2

    Yeah, I wasn't going to say it myself, but yeah, brave new world, the doors of perception and the island would all be fertile things to reference.. I like this idea.. chuck in a Teselecta or two, a huge conspiracy to kill jfk (that gets foiled- leaving Oswald on his own to do the job.), a younger Canton, a bird that keeps repeating "be here now" a couple more doctors and a give it a stir, and i think we're on to something...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 7:53 p.m. CST

    WELCOME!

    by Pogue__Mahone

    Hey gang! I'm here! I've been away in Toronto for the last 5 days at FanExpo (Canada's answer to San Diego Comicon)... had a blast.. and rushed back to our hotel in time to catch the episode... I loved it. I called the 'Mel' thing the first time we saw here - my friend said 'You always guess these things right! You should write some!' I had to take off for another long drive today to go to the funeral of an old friend so I'm utterly knackered! I haven't even read the Docback yet but I promise I will and contribute much in the next few days as I rewatch the episode and unwind. Love yas all, ya bunch of goofs! Oh! On a side note... Jane Espenson of Buffy, BSG and now Torchwood fame thinks I'm hilarious. She told me so via Twitter which is super cool! I love it for that very reason. Celebrities actually respond to messages and tweets... like instant fanmail. Gail Simone also tweeted me this week. It has it's dark side, too... a few weeks ago Simon Pegg private messaged me ... called me a stupid Cu*t... and blocked me. I have the pic to prove it! LOL Feel free to follow me @Dalek_Dave ... I rarely talk about my poo.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 7:55 p.m. CST

    New Faces

    by Pogue__Mahone

    I see a few in the DocBack already! (I'm looking at you, Ichabod!) Welcome, one and all, to one of my favourite places on the whole interweb.

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 8:04 p.m. CST

    The oldest question in the universe will be...

    by Horned One

    Doctor who? ;)

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:34 p.m. CST

    Pogue!

    by DoctorTom

    Good to see you again! Have fun catching up with the DocBack and rewatching the show!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:40 p.m. CST

    One of my exgirlfriends named her son after Huxley

    by Rebel Scumb

    Very cool unique name, I'm jealous!

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:41 p.m. CST

    By the way; How did K9 end up with Sarah Jane????

    by Rebel Scumb

    If he was with the doctor and Leela, and then Romana well after Sarah Jane left the tardis? I haven't seen any of the Lalla ward season except for City of Death, but my understanding was that K9 met a grisly death sometime around when Romana got stuck in E-space?

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:46 p.m. CST

    K9 with Sarah Jane

    by DoctorTom

    The Doctor dropped off a box marked K9 Mk III at Sarah Jane's house at the start of her 'special' in the 80's. There's still the first K9 with Leela and the second with Romana (at least until the Time War, anyway - we don't know anything after that for them).

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 9:48 p.m. CST

    @dj_bollocks - The doctor also wore red and blue in The Rebel Flesh

    by veteran_of_mu

    The bowtie changes colour in TRF just before the Doc passes out. Also interesting was River's ~What does this bow tie?~ I love Guiltybystander's theory too - thanks for that. I think it's inevitable the Doc uses gangers for safety's sake around River until she's fixed. After all if it's good enough for Dorium, it's good enough for the Doc ...

  • Aug. 29, 2011, 11:39 p.m. CST

    That was deeply terrible

    by BeatsMe

    I can't read all these posts - but why did "mels" decide to BFF her parents if she ultimately wanted to kill the doctor? To find him? Really stupid. Where was she during all of Amy's adventures with him up until these episodes?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 12:49 a.m. CST

    @beatsme

    by veteran_of_mu

    Timey wimey, wibbly wobbly, dingo's kidney-widney stuff. Look, we know of at least two Amelias - one from the universe without stars. Possibly three if you distinguish the Amelia in the post-BB reconstructed universe from the original Amelia. Ignoring the possibilities of ganger-Amelias, tesselecta-Amelias, prisoner-zero-Amelias, library-Amelias and zygon-Amelias, among others. So with all those Amelias to choose from, why shouldn't there be one to which a lonely, lost (for at least 2 decades) Melody would not attach herself to? As for why Amy didn't introduce her to the Doc - if you had a friend who was chronically antagonistic to your fantasy friend, blaming everything from the sinking of the Titanic to the Holocaust on his supposed failings, would you be very eager to introduce her to him? All that said, yeah, sloppy shit writing. Unless there's a reason for it. Which there might be. We'll see.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:29 a.m. CST

    Rebel Scumb

    by Pogue__Mahone

    A fellow Canadian! Hope you had as much fun at FanExpo as I did! Maybe we ran into each other and never realized! Hahaha! I had a Doctor Who shirt on every day (A different one... not a singular smelly one!) Are you from Toronto proper or did you travel like myself? I made the trip from the bustling megalopolis of Sarnia, Ontario! Hell! If I had of known I would have invited you back to our hotel (a 5 minute walk from the convention centre) for a beer and some Who!

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:47 a.m. CST

    Death's Head

    by Relugus

    Funny chap, horned head, had a strange habit of ending every sentence with a question, yes?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 4:55 a.m. CST

    Things I loved about this episode...

    by Peter

    In no particular order: Alex Kingston. She chews the scenery in every scene. Clearly a very divisive companion, but I'm loving her work. The Doctor's Fred Astaire moment. Nicely choreographed, Matt. The mysterious "Fish Fingers and Custard" moment. He looks away, hears the line (was it imagined?) looks back and little Amelia Pond is biting her lip. Cue a trip in the Tardis... Lovely work. Very enigmatic. Rory. He has really come on. He's our everyman, there to quietly remark on the absurdity going on around him with shy good humour. He grounds the show. And what I wasn't so keen on: The Borrowers. OK, the kids might love them, I guess, but it seemed like one sci-fi conceit too far for the episode. And surely there would be easier ways to nab Hitler if you technologically advanced time-travellers? Hitler. Any series could be freshened up with just a few more sprinkles of Hitler's magical stardust. Seriously, we couldn't have had a coda with the big man? Still, the good massively outways the bad and a blast was had. It's teriffic farce. Steven Moffat is a better writer than Russell T. Davies.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:31 a.m. CST

    Notspock

    by HornOrSilk

    Let's hope something like this happens... I also think the Lewis connection would have the Doctor as a kind of "magician" to the young Lewis. And we know River will be the one saying "be here now..."

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:50 a.m. CST

    pogue

    by Rebel Scumb

    Yeah I live downtown so it was just a quick subway ride for me! I did have a good time. Did you see that guy who was a dead ringer for the 10th Doctor? I also took a picture of a fat Cylon that never ceases to amuse me.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:51 a.m. CST

    petermck

    by Rebel Scumb

    Personally I've always had a love of tiny people and people getting shrunk in things, I was actually hoping that would happen more on Dr. Who

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:53 a.m. CST

    K-9 & K-1

    by Rebel Scumb

    Thanks for the info everyone. Its weird how in ROBOT the robot is oddly enough called K-1, and then not long after they would introduce K-9, yet they never decided to tie these two things together.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:54 a.m. CST

    I mean obviously K-9 is called K-9 to sound like canine

    by Rebel Scumb

    But of all the random names they could have given the ROBOT robot, they called him K-1. I always like to think he's the early prototype that would eventually lead (after 7 other mistakes) to K-9 being created

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 5:57 a.m. CST

    Re Rebel

    by dj_bollocks

    Was the mad professor not called Kreeg or Kellor or something... hence K-1... I could look but a chocolate eclair and a cup of tea has just arrived !

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 6:32 a.m. CST

    Mels

    by Clara Roberts

    And I thought that Rory had a line that he thought Mels was in jail at the time which might help explain where she's been. Also just wanted to mention that I really love reading the Docback. (=

  • He played him in a one off special before for comic relief, but even as a older doctor, I think that he would be very good

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 7:35 a.m. CST

    Scotland has indeed conquered a country.

    by veteran_of_mu

    On the death of Queen Elizabeth the then Scottish King succeeded to the English throne so, technically speaking, the Scots conquered England. Not that the English see it that way. Also I noticed an odd snippet of dialogue from the friendly crewman in the Tesselecta to Amy and Rory: ~When you're done here your memories will be wiped.~ There's rather a bit too much memory wiping going on, don't you think?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:08 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by Seph_J

    cheers mate - if indeed the whisper is audible, that's what I make it out to be. The ~"our"~ could at first be interpreted by Melody as meaning the Doctor and this ~"River"~ chick she keeps hearing about - hence her replying that ~"i'm sure she knows"~. But then, as the "penny drops" she realised that ~"our"~ means her and him.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:26 a.m. CST

    @Seph on the Whisper and the Viking funeral

    by veteran_of_mu

    But I think, as with everything in Who these days, there's more to it than that. If the Guiltybystander theory is correct then he may have been reassuring her that he understood so that, later on, she wouldn't feel badly about it. Or something. But this raises another possibility for TIA. Let's say the Doc died all right. And River helped build his funeral pyre. And sending off the body infused it with regen energy (assuming the Doctor lies about her having used it all up ...) Well then you can burn the once-dead body in a Viking funeral while it is busy regenerating and no one will notice that it's not actually being consumed by the flames. Then in the dark and safely out of sight of land the resurrected and regenerated Doc could safely slip over the side and into his slightly submerged TARDIS (of course it's in the lake - where else could the Astronaut have come from?) to make his getaway. The point of this being to fool the Silents and the Silence into thinking him dead and gone so he can figure out just what they're really up to and, um, diagonalise them. You have to admit Canton's ~He certainly is dead~ doesn't mean much after what we've just seen.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:31 a.m. CST

    when mels turns up.. in the cornfield...

    by emeraldboy

    shoots the tardis and says lets kill hitler. you do hear police sirens....

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:49 a.m. CST

    in the finale of a good man goes to war...

    by emeraldboy

    River song turns up and the dr says where the hell have you been. And she has that lecture about what the dr means to certain people. to one group wiseman and healer. that to others he can turn an army around at the mere mention of his name. his name means might warrior or leader to others. then there is the scene with Madame Kovarian and she says talks about the long bitter war against the dr. just before she reveals who she is to amy and rory. and places the dr's hand on his cot and he says who are you and she says touching his hand But I am telling you. and he goes giddy..... were river and the dr lovers previously. and I mean really passionate lovers. and young lovers. once. I am guessing that this will be covered in the wedding of river song.

  • ...yup, the daily rags have picked up on a few "facts", one of which was penned by what seemed like a six year old under the title "The Doctors Time is Running Out...." One article has stated that Who's popularity is waning due to the fact it only garnered 6.5m viewers, and compared it to the X Factors 10m + viewers, which is a show in a different time slot and courts a completely different demographic. (They have, however, failed to mention all of the viwers who have recorded it and will watch within 7 days ofd airtime, and it's massive growth in the US and other countries.) Another article states the episode suffers from two things- The Mels shoe-horning and that we're just meant to accept a character we have no resonance with; and River Song, a character they wish would just go away. They even went so far as to call her wearing of Nazi clothing "borderline inappropriate", her flirting "unsexy" and called for a quick exit to the character before she does the show long term harm. Unfortunately, whilst I disagree with her leaving the show entirely (there is possibly more mileage from the character in a diluted format) I do believe that as of end of this series the character take a break for some time and allow the Doc to have non-Rivercentric adventures.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:56 a.m. CST

    sam

    by Seph_J

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 8:57 a.m. CST

    sam

    by Seph_J

    people get paid to write that crap, you know!? Makes you wonder doesn't it.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 9:01 a.m. CST

    The Dream Lord in LKH

    by veteran_of_mu

    7 episodes after the TIA death we have at least 9 different ways it is now possible the Doc can escape his TIA death - gangers, tesselectas, River's post-mortem regen, the Library Sonic, multiple universes, the Dream Lord, Silent retcons, the Black Spot mer-doctor (the Doc could be wearing one of her collars in his bow tie), Big Bang 3 ... And I bet we'll have more ways out in what's coming up. Given the Doc knows about the death date he can use any or all of these methods to avert his demise. So ... no one has focused on the Dream Lord queues in LKH. The tweety birds throughout *BOTH* the rural scene and the scene in Amelia's bedroom. And the "waking from a dream" music when the Doc is dying later on. Is it possible that what we're seeing - all of it - is just more Dream Lord shenanigans? If not ... why use those queues?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 9:13 a.m. CST

    Pogue!!! My goodness, welcome back my friend!! Hope you are well!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • So we must assume that River is in the space suit. The only question is, where in her timeline is this event? We know she was a little girl at one point, and in a space suit. But it's doubtful that Melody goes from Spacesuit, to 2011 and kills the Doctor, then back 1969 and regeneration, then to Leadenworth and eventually to 1939 where she tries to kill The Doctor again. Therefore the incident at Lake Silencio must take place at some point in Rivers time line, after the events in Let's Kill Hitler. This would mean that River on the beach shooting at the Astronaut, says "Of course" because she remembers the exact same sequence of events, just from the other perspective. That of being in the suit.

  • ...not only did they miss out vital information (ah, the selective memory of the media) but the sensationalistic headline made me want to wretch!!! As did the smug-arse picture of the "expert" next to the headline. The font of knowledge from the guys who like X Factor. I rest my case.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 10:20 a.m. CST

    v'shael

    by HornOrSilk

    It could be something different, still. She doesn't have to be the one to do it, but the one believed to have done it. That way she could still infiltrate the Silence. Or, maybe she killed him by making sure he can't regenerate... or by putting his body on the pyre.. there is still all kinds of open...

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 10:29 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts ...

    by sam jacksons wig

    Great theory, but I'm more inclined to believe a redundant time line than the Dream Lord. Yes, we've been teased that he may reappear at some stage, and if played by the incomparable Toby Jones the sooner the better. As for the music and effects, haven't the incidental music and sounds been used across all episodes? And if the Dream Lord was buggering about for this long, wouldn't the Doc have woken up either into reality or into an faux reality? Agree whole heartedly in regards to the many "outs" we have, and fixed point in time or not, he's a Time Lord. He can change it, it's just the repercussions that might be severe. With that in mind and the potential catastrophy it may cause, I'm guessing the "out" will be his death, but one of at least 3 Doctors roaming about the place. From a redundant time line. It just sems the most simplistic and logical explanation, without having to re-introduce the Dream Lord without any fanfare.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 10:41 a.m. CST

    samlicker81- it's hard not to laugh at your moniker, given my own!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    Glad you like the DocBacks, and it would be great to see more of you here!

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 11:07 a.m. CST

    petermck -

    by sam jacksons wig

    Yeah, absolutely right, the good far outweighed the bad. River isn't a bad companion, I just think that we've seen far too much of her over the last 2 series, and once the "mystery" currently surrounding her ends, the character needs to take a sabatical. As regards RTD and the Moff, dare I say that both are gifted writers, but very very different? Comparing one to the other is difficult, because as showrunner, RTD guided Moff to write some truly awesome stuff and wrote some stonkers himself (Rose, Boom Town, Bad Wolf, Parting of the Ways, Tooth and Claw, Runaway Bride, The Utopia 3 parter...to name but a few.) and both have a completely different style of writing. However, that doesn't take precident over your own personal taste!! SJW.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 11:43 a.m. CST

    caractuspotts - Viking funeral

    by DoctorTom

    wasn't it Rory who took him out in the boat and set him on fire, not River? We saw Rory coming out of the water. River certainly didn't have a smug 'oh I pulled off a clever bit here' look on her face like she figured out how to save the Doctor. Of course, it could be acting, but I don't think so. I think she thinks he's gone at that point.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 11:50 a.m. CST

    The one thing bugging me in TIA vs LKH

    by DoctorTom

    Supposedly River kills the Doctor, and it's at Lake Silencio. We see the Doctor shot down by the astronaut suit. We're supposed to think that it's River in there. <br> We're told that the Silents want to kill the Doctor. We were also shown that the child (presumably River) was raised by the Silents. <br> At this point we should presume that, given what the crew of the Teselecta know, that the Silents know that the Doctor's death at Lake Silencio is a fixed point in time and space. <br> Given that, wouldn't they have deprogrammed Melody/River after killing the Doctor so that she doesn't go out and kill him again at some other point in his life, thereby interfering with the fixed point in spacetime. That is, unless they're deliberately trying to get that effect - maybe it cracks spacetime? <br> <br> Also, one other thing to consider - Melody says in Let's Kill Hitler that it was never going to be a gun for the Doctor. The death at Lake Silencio, however, was by a gun for all intents and purposes (from what we saw). Is this supposed to be a clue that it's not actually Melody in the suit at Lake Silencio? Maybe the answer's on the mothership that the crew of the Teselecta beamed up to.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 11:54 a.m. CST

    Horn/V'Shael- I don't believe it's River in the suit that shoots him...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...the way he is gesturing to whoever does it and giving instructions is as if the person doesn't know how to do it rather than hesitant. I think after some of us thought the young girl who regenerated wasn't River/Melody, which turned out simply to be "her" , will be a little cheated if it once again turns out to be River/Melody in the space suit. And yes, I am aware that sometimes we have a predilection to over-complicate matters, but wouldn't you feel the slightest bit narked if it were THAT simple, especially after the rigamarole that was LKH?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Baffled by the bad guys' motivations at this point.

    by spacehog

    The Silence as their own religious movement is an interesting development, but I now have absolutely no idea what's going on. We have two religious groups, one trying to save the universe from the Doctor and the other trying to destroy the universe...and they seem to be working together...and I don't know what the makeshift TARDIS is for, or why their weapon needs to be a Time Lord, if River's assassination method is to wait years for the Doctor to come to her and then kiss him...and on and on and on. I just don't know what these groups want and how exactly they're trying to reach those goals. I mean, we've seen the Silence destroy the universe already! They did it, and it didn't involve a question...it involved blowing up the TARDIS. Is chasing after this question just their new plan in this rebooted universe, or were they seeking it all along? Anyone feeling especially patient? Anyone want to tell me what they think the Silence are doing, what Kovarian's group are doing, and how they interrelate? I know it's all meant to be a little unclear at this point, but I feel like there's SO much basic information that's up in the air right now that I just feel, well, L O S T. Just like that show...

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 12:20 p.m. CST

    doctortom -

    by sam jacksons wig

    We also have to consider that she fired at the Astronaut 4 or 5 times to no effect. Why? And yes, later when they are in the diner, she looked genuinely shocked when the Doc turned up. Suprise because she thought he was dead, for sure- but what kind of suprise?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 12:32 p.m. CST

    emeraldboy - don't deny that there is something between them...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..but after all of the foreplay around who she is, and the Doc going all giddy, he then says "But didn't we......?" To which we get a provocative "yes..." Would that be the actions of two lovers? If that is what she was inferring, surely the Doc would have already realised they "had..." Not sure at all, my friend. I feel a bit more mis-direction at hand. After all, the Doctor lies... and so does River.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Well, Sam,

    by DoctorTom

    to be honest all 3 were surprised when the Doctor showed up. They weren't expecting an earlier version of himself to be there. All the Jim the Fish stuff indicates she's upset with him, and that she was expecting the Jim the Fish stuff to be after he hits the age 909 but before the death of the Doctor. (Of course, since the Doctor lies, the younger one might actually have had the meeting with Jim the Fish but is keeping it quiet for his own reasons).

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I think River is a good possibility, and the simple one, and sometimes the simple answer is what we get (like her being Amy's baby). However, I still think the options go in this direction: 1) Rory 2) The Doctor himself 3) River

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:12 p.m. CST

    Spacehog-

    by sam jacksons wig

    I trust that things will get tied up nicely at the end, to be sure, and I fully expect there to be things left going into next year, such as The Question and what benefit it will have to the Silence. The one thing that is making my throat go a little dry is the time they have left to get it all done and make it coheret and meaningful. LOST got, well..... lost somewhat under the weight of its own pretentiousness and the writers basically winging it with little or no clue as to how they would reach the finale, and what they would do when they got there. I don't feel that it will be anything at all like we have with Who- I do believe that it has all been carefully planned and that we will have the "TA-DAH" as orchestrated, followed by a few "WTF???" as it is no-where near our wildest guesses. My own thoughts? Things went out of control during the Big Bang 2. The Universe wasn't rebooted as planned; sure the cracks may have closed, but the result of the new creation spells bedlam and mayhem. The Doctor is to blame in manys eyes, and is branded the ultimate evil in the Universe, one that must be stopped. What is not realised is that there is now more than one Universe, more than one time line and more than one Time Lord. The Alliance failed. the plans to contain the Doctor for all eternity backfired, and a once benign group called the Clerics have joined forces with one of Earths oldest parasites to find the Question in a bid to overthrow the Doc and rebuild the Universe in their own image.) Hence the Tardis explosion to begin anew.) To do it, they have created a deadly assassin- one closest to the Doctor and ready to strike given the go ahead. (Death by Stealth so as not to insight an all out war with the Time Lords supporters.) They did not count on the power of love across time and space. What they have also failed to realise is that time has gone wrong, and another Universe co-exists with this one and is bleeding through so they will eventually mesh.( It is this that screws up history. ) In it lies another Doctor, and his days are numbered..... And there are so many holes in that theory I suppose you could label it Swiss Cheese...;)) Take care!!! SJW.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Spoilers: Episode 12 speculation....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..Guys, on my recent scouring of the net I have located a couple of images regarding episode 12 and the cybermen. Firstly, the mood looks dire, and the photos are suitably gritty and cold; the Cybership an impressive dark steel behemoth. There is one image of what loks to be a cyberman entering through a doorway, but on checking further it definately has human hands. I shall post a link to the offending site, but I must warn you that it not only contains these spoilers, but others if you click other links) Anyone have any clues as to what this is? PLEASE DO NOT LOOK if you wish to remain spoiler free on any Who matter!!!! http://doctorwhospoilers.com/2011/the-2011-series/12-episode-twelve

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    Horn-

    by sam jacksons wig

    Really want it to be anyone but River, but from what I am reading elsewhere, the consensus is that it will turn out to be her. Something in my gut tells me otherwise. How are you doing, anyway? Are you feeling any better??? SJW.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 2:53 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, I think it will be River, but I would like it to be Rory. The thing is we are told the whole Rory "is dying all the time" aspect of Rory's life will be explained, which makes me think, it is Rory still. As for me, chronic fatigue is a bitch. I have ups and downs. Today is more neutral, but yesterday, it was terrible. Thanks for asking! I hope all is well with you and your family!

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 3:24 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig

    by Clara Roberts

    lol, oh yeah... I can see how that could be weird. I use this moniker because it's a Supernatural reference. Emily Perkin's fangirl character used "samlickr81" as her online persona. To be honest, I'm more of a Dean or Castiel fan but oh well. Of course, my heart will always belong to David Tennant. So, I think I'm in the right place. Really look forward to keeping up with the rest of you here.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 3:55 p.m. CST

    Thanks, SJW

    by spacehog

    In alluding to that other, lesser show, I certainly didn't mean to suggest I think The Moff and crew are making it up as they go along. I trust, as you do, that there's a very clever plan. I'd just hoped for a slightly clearer picture by now—too much of the show seems to be ''well, that will make sense by the finale'' moments. And I know it's going to be so mindblowing when it does come together...but I'd like to enjoy more bits of the episodes the first time I watch them, and not just in retrospect once the season is finished. Thanks for taking the time to type out your thoughts. I'm not keen on there being two universes, or even two Doctors, but I'm as yet unable to suggest another idea. (Though I have come up with the term ''Gangerverse'' which I'm quite fond of, and am now trying desperately to find any evidence or reasoning whatsoever that the entire rebooted universe is made of Flesh.)

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 7:04 p.m. CST

    It's all very exciting/annoying isn't it?

    by Mister Vertue

    I haven't had a chance to fully catch up on this Docback yet, but you seem to be rather happy with what you saw on the whole. I know you can't please *all* the people *all* of the time, it's just impossible. The best thing to do is just please yourself and hope that others like it too. The reviews were very good and there really are answers to your questions lying ahead. There's nothing worse than being teased and not having any resolution. Fear not, the makers of the show are very aware of that and you won't be disappointed. Just stick with it and all shall be revealed! As far as the Christmas Special is concerned, the groundwork has started in terms of pre-production, but it's very early days. The finishing touches are still being made to the script, but the core of the story is there. No read-through yet, but that's been scheduled for all participating actors.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 7:35 p.m. CST

    The bedevilling Evil One is back, I see... ~grin~

    by Perigee

    Plot-wise, talking to MoV is like talking to God - you never get the answers you Really want. ~OK, God, what's with this whole big boat thing? The Neighbors are starting to look at me funny...~ ~Shhh... Spoilers...~ So I'll attempt not to wrest anything but this one, single nugget: Will things be ~back to normal~ when we rejoin the Doctor a year from now, or should we prepare to settle in with the concept that we'll be hanging with ~The Silence~ and ~The Question~ for a third series?

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 10:43 p.m. CST

    @MOV On Annoyance

    by veteran_of_mu

    I'm mainly annoyed that there are so many ways for the Doc to get off the hook now. To save you searching the thread I count: 1. gangers - either the known ganger-doc or the puddle of flesh that used to be Amy 2. tesselectas, who we know can fake death and extract life instead of killing ... whatever that means ... 3. River's post-mortem regen. Sure Amy said the Doc said that River had used up all her other incarnations. But River has also said she'd die for the Doc. And if she snuck in an injection of regen energy you'd never notice the Doc's body was not consumed on the bier. Later on he could roll away a rock from a cave ... 4. The Library Sonic with the dampers and red setting. Wherever that got tucked away, anyone could back up the Doc's consciousness, make a quick time hop to the Library, and return him to Library River's virtual loving arms ... then reanimate both of them as Gangers or Tesselectas or energy beings or something. 5. Multiple universes. Yep, we got 'em. They're like bedbugs. In particular the prequel shot of a possibly original-universe-doctor trying to get the TARDIS to land somewhere in the new universe ... well, just have him turn up after the new universe Doc is dead and hey, presto! 6. The Dream Lord. There were sound queues for that guy in LKH - in both the first 2 sequences we have his tweety birds, and then when the Doc is dying we have the Dream Lord waking from a dream theme. So ... maybe every episode of this whole season has been a dream. Doc finally wakes up by forcing the DL back out into open by "dieing for good" and then springs some kind of meta-static psionic one-two punch to swap places with him ex machina. 7. Silent retcons. Maybe the dead Doc is just a post hypnotic suggestion - Doc didn't actually die, he's just pining for the fjords. His tie is blue and was made in Norway ... 8. The Black Spot mer-doctor. Sounds extremely silly but the Doc could be wearing one of her collars in his bow tie. Hey, you let the Black Spot doc into the continuity, you gotta keep her busy ... 9. Big Bang 3 ... or Big Bang N+1, where N is the number of traps the Doc has been in recently. I figure the TARDIS makes Big Bangs whenever she can't figure out some other way to save the day. And I will be amazed if this list does not grow by the end of this season. The mystery is no longer about who kills the Doc. The mystery is about why the Doc would worry about it very much given all these easy-outs. I think you have some loopholes to close. Otherwise ... well, does the name Teela Brown mean anything to you? You might want to look up the last Larry Niven Known Space story ~Safe At Any Speed~ ... which continues to annoy the snot out of me ...

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 10:52 p.m. CST

    remember

    by douglas

    In the 11th hour ,the Doctor said" just a quick pop to the moon and back" When he left Amila.

  • Aug. 30, 2011, 11 p.m. CST

    I guess MOV

    by Kevin Bolinger

    really enjoys teasing us...lol

  • Aug. 31, 2011, 5:19 a.m. CST

    lynxpro

    by gotilk

    Thanks for the reply, sorry so long to get back. Great info there, I really had no idea, although I do recall Who-related pledge breaks vaguely. That was a transitional period for me, back then. Pulled between discovering punk rock, girls and various other things as my nerdy/geeky side was battling it out with my newfound libido. lol I really should get out more and be more engaged with the local sci-fi fandom community in some way. I guess there's a side of Sacramento I knew was there, just not in as big a way as I thought. I do recall the Serenity premiere in Sac though. We got CAPT MAL!! In friggen Roseville!!! What a memory. And the people there in costume were awesome. I think some part of me has kept a distance from all that stuff for so long I've forgotten my roots. I was a Trek convention kid... even met and spent a really, really long time chatting with Mr Takei (SULU) at a very poorly attended convention once when I was about 11. Nice dude. To have met ANY Doctor back then would have been amazing. I have missed so much. And I can only imagine the amazing, interesting people in that fan community. (if the folks here are ANY indication, I have missed very much indeed)

  • Aug. 31, 2011, 5:21 a.m. CST

    Man, I was only really away for a few weeks

    by gotilk

    but it feels like I've missed a LOT. Good to be back to the DocBacks! Good posts, people. Great reading.

  • Aug. 31, 2011, 5:25 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by gotilk

    Loved number 9. That made me actually laugh out loud.

  • Aug. 31, 2011, 5:29 a.m. CST

    ...and am pleased as punch

    by gotilk

    as well as delighted that so many refer to the TARDIS now as a "she". Oh I'm sure its been said before, but now it has special meaning and I love it.

  • Aug. 31, 2011, 5:29 a.m. CST

    Goodnight.

    by gotilk

    Don't worry, I'm not padding the DocBack with meaningless posts. Much.