This weekend brings us "Night Terrors" - the ninth episode in DOCTOR WHO's sixth Season/Series. This comes to us from writer Mark Gatiss (who previously scripted who eps "Victory of the Daleks," "The Unquiet Dead," and "The Idiot's Lantern"), and is directed by Richard Clark. Clark's past helming credits for DOCTOR WHO include "Gridlock" - an episode I truly love, as well as "The Lazarus Experiment" and "The Doctor's Wife." An intriguing pedigree to say the least.
It'll be interesting to see how BBC America fares over the next few days. This is a "long weekend" in the U.S. (Monday is Labor Day here, a day dedicated to women who are in the process of delivering babies). The last time a similar Holiday intersected with a new episode of DW , which was Memorial Day earlier this year, BBCA famously/controversially delayed the airing of "The Almost People" - effectively shattering the series' U.K. / U.S. broadcast concurrence for several weeks, and pushing back the U.S. airing of the much-anticipated "A Good Man Goes To War" (the last episode before the show's Summer break). There are no such scheduling tweaks this time around - BBCA is airing "Night Terrors" this weekend without consideration of Monday's holiday, so let's make this decision pay off for them here in the U.S.
"Night Terrors" airs Saturday September 3. 7pm on BBC One, and on BBC America at 9pm, 8 Central.
OTHER ORDERS OF BUSINESS...
SYLVESTER McCOY READS MATT SMITH'S PANDORICA SPEECH AT DRAGONCON
As I mentioned my small piece yesterday, my friend Ken Plume interviewed seventh Doctor Sylvester McCoy Friday morning before a live audience at DragonCon in Atlanta.
During their discussion, Ken asked Sylvester to preform his interpretation of Matt Smith's epic speech from "The Pandorica Opens." This is what McCoy came up with - what do you think?
Per discussions in other Talkbacks over the last week, we'll be launching "Lockbacks" next year - when Series 2 of SHERLOCK arrives. We warmly invite any Dockbackers to join us in the Lockbacks - which'll be approached and managed in exactly the same way as our current Docbacks.
How long the Lockbacks endure (only three Lockbacks for Series 2's three installments? Or, will they continue beyond?) will be determined by how the initial set of 3 unfold. But there will be AT LEAST three...for the three new SHERLOCKs we'll be getting in 2012...I'm tired and maybe not making sense...but you know what I'm saying...I guess...
Weekly Friday Docbacks will continue as previously stated.
If you've been thinking about checking out SHERLOCK but haven't yet do so, this might be the perfect time to give it a look. It's availabe HERE in the U.S. (where it's also streamable), HERE in the U.K., and is also streaming in standard and HD via Netflix. Great stuff...
I've always been curious about this show, but know very, very little about it. I could identify the ship and would recognize the series' theme music, but that's about it. I stumbled across some clips the other day, which got me thinking...is this something I should watch? Does it deliver? I'm very interested in Dockbackers' assessment of the show.
As far as British TV SF goes, I've had experience with a number of Gerry Anderson shows (loved the first Season/Series of SPACE: 1999 - can't stand what happened to the second...and think U.F.O. could be re-tooled into one helluva contemporary series if put into the right hands). I've seen some of RED DWARF, a few odds & ends (like INVASION EARTH), I watched HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE, the obligatory TORCHWOOD stuff, etc. but...somehow...I've not seen a single moment of BLAKE'S 7 (save for one spoilery sequence on one of the DOCTOR WHO DVD extras). Thoughts, opinions, and insight would be most appreciated and quite welcome...
AN IMPORTANT WARNING ABOUT SPOILERS
The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback below - aka "Docback" - is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe.
Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.
While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become a SPOILER INTENSIVE ZONElate tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday September 3) - when "Night Terrors" airs in the U.K.
If you wish to remain free and clear of "NIght Terrors" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, you should tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.
U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS): please consider this ample notice and fair warning.
See DOCTOR WHO Season/Series Six Episode 1 - "The Impossible Astronaut" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.
See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.
Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.
Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife" - is available HERE in HD, while standard def is availabe HERE.
Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.
Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.
Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.
Episode 8 - "Let's Kill Hitler" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.
Episode 9 -"Night Terrors" - HD HERE, standard def HERE.
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks" - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks. These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them. Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)...
2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity. Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example. "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well. "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?" Is NOT good.
And, above all...
3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way. Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning. Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated. Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.
In short, it's easy. Be excellent to each other. Now party on...
A few latter-day shows like Farscape and Firefly (basically the motley crew forced to live with each other on a spaceship while on the run-type of show) could be considered descendants of Blake's 7. It's a show that I really miss (and wish would get a R1 DVD release). At times it could be more "adult" than old school Who, but at the same time had cheaper production values, so be forewarned.
Yeah, the console room of the TARDIS in the FOX tv movie was really great. It makes me think that the 7th Doctor had time to finally relax, so he changed the desktop theme to be more homely. Then by the time you see the console room when the 9th Doctor came into be, it is vacant of the home feel. You can't feel at home when you are at war. Pretty cool thing.
VOTD was poor and The Idiots Lantern had a premise that deserved better than the episode delivered - the resolution was particularly weak. I liked the unquiet dead though and the docs wife was great. Intrigued by the trailers for this one fingers crossed.
that were very much within my control but which I'm going to pretend weren't, I wasn't able to participate in last week's Docback, but I very much look forward to contributing my own particular brand of rubbish this time around!
Looking forward to Night Terrors - as much as I enjoyed LKH, I'm presently in the mood for something wherein I can rest assured it's frightening the bejesus out of the little 'uns. Of the Gattiss penned eps, my favourite so far has been TiL; I'm hoping this one is proper spook-full, mind, although Clark's previous directorial efforts have themselves tended to be more at the 'fun' end of the spectrum - we'll see, of course.
As for Blake's 7, I have virtually no first-hand knowledge of it myself and am limited to what I've read about it (which is rather a lot - can't figure that one out at all) so I've not much to offer at this juncture. It does appear to be very much a product of its time, but again, if you can overlook the production values it's got quite a lot going for it. Or so I've read...
Roll on the w/e!
is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
Merrick, can you play Region 2 PAL DVD's? They're not out in the US. I have an NTSC/PAL player (precisely so I can watch British DVDs) and picked up the first two seasons - these were the two that had Blake in them for the entire season. Some people think it went downhill after that, but the final episode ends the series in a completely unexpected way.
I have the PAL DVDS. It's a shame they never got released in the US.
The show, when good, is great. The opening episode is classic and would work, with maybe a bit more of an ending, as a great Outer Limits story in its own right. It is classic. The show goes off to the side, and has some not so classic episodes eventually, and the effects are worse than Doctor Who, but it is well worth watching.
Season 1-6 are totally worth watching even if the first two are thematically different (and many would argue better).
Only season 7-8 divided the fanbase, although I myself found them passable with some geniunly good moments in them. The season 9 'special' was pretty atrocious and most of the comedy about meeting their actor selves would fall flat across the pond, although the Blade Runner riff is quite clever.
Plus, it shouldn't take you long as they follow the six episode rule for British seasons.
Might be a good time to check them out as they've recently announced Season 10 has got the greenlight.
Terry Nation who created the Daleks was in a pitch meeting and what he prepared didn't go over well. They asked him if he had anything else and he started making up the plot for this show off the cuff. Thats how the story goes.
The first 4 episodes play like a epic sci fi movie and set up the rest of the series. Great cast, great acting and stories all around in that first season, the rest of series suffers a little in terms of quality due to the loss of several behind the scenes key players, but the series as a whole is still definitely worth checking out.
There isn't much about this show that is feel good. It is dark, bleak and the good guys seldom win. But it has those awesome 1970's BBC production values.
Agree with DoctorTom - First two seasons are definitely to be watched, and the ending is somewhat unexpected. Definitely brings closure to the series, and that's all I'm saying. Major cast changes between the second and third season, including the title character going missing (Paul Darrow has said he was pushing for a name change to Avon's Angels since his character became the leader of the group), and for a lot of people, those last two seasons weren't regarded as well.
I saw all 4 seasons here in the US as the local PBS station picked it up for the whole run. They were all recorded on VHS, which has been decaying in my basement ever since and if it hasn't been thrown out yet it soon will be, sad to say. I bought the first season from Amazon.UK - have an Apex DVD player that cares little for region codes and even less for Macrovision, and of course the DVD ripper didn't seem to care about region coding either and the episodes see occasional action on my "media center" Mac Mini that's hooked up to the TV. A shame they were never released over here. Ordering the other three seasons is still on my to-do list.
The show is very much a product of it's time. If you can sit through Doctor Who episodes and episodes of classic Star Trek without MST3K-ing about the sets and props, you'll probably love it. If you've not seen an episode of it, it'll be something to tide you over between series' of Doctor Who...
I just see them having a crossover for Children In Need or one of the other charity shows like that.
Then again, the rumored 'little person' connection that Man of Vertue mentioned the Doctor showing up in might just as easily be a sketch for a charity drive show.
** can you play Region 2 PAL DVD's? **
Good question, and yes I have an all region DVD player (but not an all region Blu-Ray player).
There was one particular extra on a DOCTOR WHO DVD that discussed BLAKE'S 7 a bit and pretty much spoiled the ending of the show! They didn't discuss the plot mechanics of it, but they SHOWED WHAT HAPPENS!? Even though I haven't watched the show, I was rather amazed that they'd be so flagrant in their lack of consideration.
Fortunately, I really don't mind spoilers for the most part so I'd be up for it all the same - although that was still a tad annoying.
some of the Blake's 7 episodes would be more enjoyable if you DID pull an MST3Kification with them. Maybe, if they ever get released in the US, Rifftrax will do something with them. Still, there were little gems even in the last 2 seasons (you had Robert Holmes actually write some episodes in there).
....that had a certain ship come to a certain end. I didn't want my family to see me crying.
So, as a litmus test, a 7 yr old boy reduced to tears counts as a very large thumbs up.
Blue Peter showed you how to make your own Orac out of a fish tank. Very cool in the late '70's.
Amazing ships and amazing women. I'd go for a remake. As long as AVON came back - as in the same actor. Wonderful character.
You might want to try Amazon to pick up the first season. The American Amazon site actually has some of the Region 2 season 1 sets for about $40 plus shipping. If you like that you could go get further seasons.
You could get some from Amazon's UK site, but I think although the price might work out to be a little less for the set itself, the extra cost for shipping would make it about the same.
"Night Terrors" will not be arc-related so that leaves just 4 eps. to explain stuff I've had questions about since The Eleventh Hour...
I hope this doesn't leave too much dangling by the conclusion of Ep. 13...
"The Girl Who Waited" looks to be a doozy, and I am curious how ep. 12 leads into what looks to be a crazy finale, because on the surface it looks relatively "non-arc" but they have said 12/13 are not entirely unrelated...
I don't even know what to think about Ep. 11. Might be the one which blindsides us all?
I didn't care for Idiot's Lantern. I can't explain why; it just didn't click for me. Victory of the Daleks was decent but flawed. I did, however, really enjoy The Unquiet Dead.
Richard Clark is a very solid director. So I have high hopes for this one.
Blake's 7: I've seen tiny bits of it. I got a copy recently; it's on my list of things to watch. I've heard good things.
Red Dwarf: I honestly don't get the appeal of this show. I know lots of people like it, but it just came across as stupid to me. Not my kind of humor, I guess, or maybe I just didn't ''get it,'' but it left me cold.
FYI, I'll be disengaging from the Docback tonight and probably won't be back until late Saturday or Sunday.
This and Dr Who were staples of my childhood, watched them almost religiously. Having watched Blakes 7 as an adult it has suffered from the rigours of 70's BBC production but the storylines and performances (particularly Paul Darrow and Michael Keating) were great. I have all four series on DVD, and I can remember being stunned at the final episode and the excited conversations in the playground at school the next day. Definitely ripe for a remake.
Series 1 -3 were really quite something. The isolation of the space setting lead to some very intelligent and ultimately funny comedy that managed to be everything from philosophical, political and even profound (the nature of Lister being idolized by the Cat Race to name only one). The interplay between Lister and Rimmer were something very special indeed. <p>
I'm very fond of series 4 and 5, yet you can tell at this stage the dynamic was changing. Still very funny episodes and I can probably quote them chapter and verse even now (was big in my high school at the time of original transmission). Series 6 was the tipping point - it was still the original cast doing their thing, but only flashes of brilliance for me and a lot of jokes were starting to be recycled and wearing out their welcome (Space Core Directives and Lister saying something like 'He's got more X than X on an X' format jokes). The end of series 6 was bittersweet and quite a great episode though. <p>
As lemming pointed out, Series 7-8....divided people somewhat. I fell into the hater camp. It was painful and embarassing at times to watch. I can't remember 8 very well now but remember it leaving a bitter taste. And the last special...dear sweet fucking god. I hold no hope for the future reunion and wish they'd leave them be. <p>
But I digress - make sure you catch 1 - 6 Merrick!
...but I can understand why Mark gatiss and the production team decided to change it.
For me, it gave more depth and meaning to the role of the boy involved, and made his character more center.
Night terrors, whilst generic, will no doubt get the blood pumping more.
Hope all are well!!!
Imagine a series of 'Star Trek' from the viewpoint of the Maquis, constantly on the run from the evil Federation. They view themselves as freedom fighters, attempting to bring down the Federation, while the Federation brands them as terrorists who must be hunted down and executed.
I think that just about sums it up. Except it is, of course, much better.
Lemming also points out that the first two are quite thematically different than the third. I lumped 1 - 3 together because I probably spent more time with the first three together, despite the third introducing quite a few changes in it's own right.
I think the thing which hurt RD the most was the break up of Grant and Naylor. You could see the problems in the later series and by the time 7 and 8 came around it was on it's last legs. The mini series was, um, ok at best. It'll be interesting to see how the new series pans out next year.
I was talking a while ago on a previous thread about the updates to the effects they did, and how it took the charm away from the series.
Give me the shonky sets and the crappy production values any day of the week; it was the cast that ultimately made the show what it was.
As Doctor Who, the continuity was all over the place, but hey! With entertainment THAT good it didn 't really matter.
Series 7 & 8 aren't as offensive as they first seemed after re-watching them. There are still some great bits of comedy (Lister & Rimmer and the virus to remove the skin from spuds going horribly wrong; the delayed fight sequence when they are infront of the Captain and begin to hurl themselves around; Rimmer with the Lanstrom virus that makes him irresistable to women....)
However, as the production changed it was the warmth of the show that lacked, and that is what most people I know who loved the show couldn't palate.
For me, series 10 can't come fast enough!!
Agree with tomdolan4. Although the last couple of years did have Chloe Annett to look at. You can see the influence on farscape as well...things like scutters and drd's.
Blake's Seven is worth the effort as well....even the final series when an awful lot changed. Would love to see it brought back or remade, can't decide which. Remake means no Paul Darrow as Avon. Brought back means only Avon.
..the premise was good, but the delivery unfortunately fell a bit flat.
Maureen Lipman is what did it for me I'm afraid, as I find her risible at best. (She was in a dreadful show called "Agony.."(and it was to watch it!!) and starred in shitty adverts for BT as a character called (drum roll please)...... Beatie. Shite!!!)
Yeah I'd heard that, just wasn't sure if there had been any further explanation from either in the past years from an interview or something. Such a shame. <p>
I think I remember reading the 'Last Human' book by Naylor which I liked quite a lot, though it follows a somewhat difference continuity from the shows. From being a young boy who was kinda on/off with McCoys Doctor (and 'feeling funny' about Ace before I even knew what girls were hehe!) in the late 80's, following the demise of Who Red Dwarf really fired up my sci-fi imagination in the aftermath teenage years. Good times! <p>
That said, a bulk of Mccoys episodes haven't aged well at all having caught them in the last few months. Even Curse of The Fenric which invokes a lot of love in these talkback walls didn't hit major highs (though was an enjoyable enough romp)
Oh yeah, not the shitty Altered Images guff she did, but I saw her in Gregorys Girl and that was that!!!
It was part of my Bill Forsyth phase- you know, That Sinking Feeling (alot of people hated that movie, but I loved it!!) and Local Hero (Mark Knophlers music STILL gives me goosebumps!), but most of all the Mr Bunny inspired madness of Comfort and Joy!!! Priceless!!
As for her role in Dwarf, I pissed myself laughing at Rimmer picking her handbag from the floor as she was dancing around it and throwing it across the room!!
Had never seen her before myself, but yes, she definitely rubbed me the wrong way.
Overall I'm a fan of Gatiss and have been for some time. I liked his Virgin NAs, and the BBV stuff based on his scripts were the best BBV releases (and in case you think that's being damned with faint praise, they were *good*). The Zero Imperative is my all-time favorite ''unofficial'' Who-ish story.
So as I said, I'm optimistic.
Some age better than others. Lalla Ward still looks amazing. Sophie, not so much, but then again, it's been over twenty years. Christ, I sure as hell don't look as good as I did 20 years ago.
The bottom of the scale would likely be Katy Manning, who looks like she's about to lash out and sever my carotid artery. I tend to think cosmetic surgery has been involved, which is a shame as she was so cute in the 70's...
I don't know how he felt about the colors. I noticed that when they used them for the Stone Daleks later they tried limiting things to frontal shots, which hid the hump, so I guess people worked out the real problem with the new Daleks.
The concept of a 'special weapons locker' on their body is a good concept, but the change to the Dalek silhouette just didn't work well. Given the larger size of the Daleks (which was a good idea) maybe it could have been set up to get special weapons out of 'pop out' slots from inside the main body and keep the regular silhouette of the Dalek, just at a much larger size.
I am one of the few who seems to have loved the last outing; but of course, I loved the material it used for its parody (Blade Runner). The opening episode I felt was horrible, but 2 and 3 I really enjoyed.
I hope they get the Teletubby Daleks on it somehow!
Tiswas!!! Boy, looking back she was HOT!
Unfortunately at the time I was more interested in Den heggarty's waether reports and the Phantom Flan Flinger.
Do you remember the adult version called OTT? Was THAT shite!!!
I loved Unquiet Dead.
The rest of his on-air episodes felt flat, though I always knew the problems were not his but other issues which affected the episodes.
But I think he has what it takes to write good Who.
Looking forward to this one, my favourite episodes as a kid were always the scary ones. Won't be able to watch it while it's on, unfortunately...
...because I'm off to London where the Dr Who Experience awaits. Woohoo! On my return I plan to fire up the old Sky+ and catch up with you lot. Happy days!
I got the first CD. It wasn't my cup of tea.
It lost much of what made the original so good.
I think the best thing for B7 would be a "Next Generation" instead of reboot storyline.
Avon, btw, should have ended up as the puppet-head of the Federation. Deal with the theme of "revolt manipulated" as the opening of the next generation. End the first season with Avon coming back to his true self.
Will get there week after next God willing, please post and give me your thoughts.
If you can, when it returns, catch Crash of the Elysium in 2012- now that was purely fantastic stuff!!! An hour or so well spent!!
Have an amazing time, matey!!!
Nobody in the six- or seventies would have had strange thoughts regarding "What Are Little Girls Made Of?". Those where good and easy times, my friends... the world seemed much more friendly...
Too bad, even such cultural pop-references nowerdays may leave a bitter taste in our mouth... was that politically correct, what I just said...? Hmmm...
That's the second posting of the same damn thing, within seconds of being posted exactly one hour apart - like he's set up an automated bot to spam the message boards. And it doesn't have anything to do with the topic
I vote that he get banned, his home address get tracked down and posted in a big message in the main board under a headline calling him out for this behavior.
Merrick, you must watch "Blake's 7."
The B7 "universe" is set around the year 3000, with The Federation from "Star Trek" having gone totalitarian. Blake is an escaped political prisoner who hooks up with 7 other prisoners (some politcal, some not) and commandeers an abandoned starship.
TNG's Deanna Troi's empathic ability is lifted from B7's Cally. BTW Marina Sirtis auditioned for B7 in it's 3rd season when they added the new regulars.
Farscape's Commandant Grazer was inspired by B7's Federation President Servelan, even the wardrobe is similar.
Farscape's plot of ex-prisoners on a ship running from the government is lifted from B7, (Makes sense since Farscape producer/director Brian Henson was IIRC in London in the late 1970's with his father when they were making "The Muppet Show.")
B7's season 2 finale was plagerized by Brannon Braga for TNG's season 3 finale "Best of Both Worlds (part 1)".
The logo for the show "Blake's 7" is Star Trek's Federation symbol rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
Gene Roddenberry's "Andromeda" is his personal variation on "Blake's 7", even though he claims the idea of Kirk and the gang getting sent hundreds of yers into the future where the Federation has collapsed and the Enterprise is on the run came to him differently. I personally don't by that because of the Deanna/Cally characters and the casting of Sirtis.
So "Andromeda", in a way, a wink back at Terry Nation.
Catch you guys after Saturday night.------later----m
The Unquiet Dead, but I enjoyed The Idiot's Lantern too.
I know I'm in the minority, but I thought Victory of the Daleks was pretty solid except for the bomb in the android's chest being conquered by love. No magic, please. It was like the end of the original V, where the fucking "starchild" magically stops the mothership from exploding. At least throw some pseudo-scientific gobbledygook at us.
It would have been easy to write in some kind of, any kind of, scientific explanation for why that happened. I wanted that in "The Big Bang" too. You couldn't explain the ontological paradox of the sonic screwdriver or really how The Doctor was "remembered back into existence". Don't get me wrong, it's still the best explained finale yet and they set it up the whole season pretty well (God, that scene in Flesh and Stone was so magnificent!), but I just wanted some kind of scientific principle spelled out a little, so it feels less magic-y. They did spent enough time on it to earn the ending, I just wanted a little sci in my fi.
I mean, this is still the best Doctor Who has been, ever. I've been a fan for 29 years. But those couple of things would have made last season just perfect.
So far, I think they've avoided last season's pitfalls extremely well. I hope this episode is as awesome as Gatiss' first!
Oh, and Blake's 7 was kickass when I was twelve. it was like the Doctor's older and darker brother. I saw all of them, but I haven't seen it since. Paul Darrow absolutely nails it as Avon. Unlike the Whoniverse, it's not a universe that you want to live in (even though I thought Servalan was evil-hot!)
The show was actually what was proposed for a Star Trek series by Robert Hewitt Wolfe for after Voyager - when it got turned down by Paramount as a Star Trek series the Dylan Hunt parts from Genesis II and Planet Earth.
Some of the other things, like Troi being a lift of Cally, are also suspect - more likely they are both lifts from SF literature. Don't go claiming all these things are ripoffs of Blake's 7.
Given that there was no mention of prototype equipment hanging around, they managed to turn Bracewell's blueprints for a gravity bubble into working equipment, mount that AND Dalek weaponry onto Spitfires awfully fast, given that this was all done while the German planes were flying toward London.
Agreed on the ''magic.'' That was my biggest problem with Victory of the Daleks, and unfortunately it's the climax of the episode.
My other issue is that it seems like the Daleks cooked up a wildly-overcomplicated plan to get the Doctor's ''testimony'' that they are really Daleks. What Dalek would even design such a system? You wouldn't think the Daleks would want to LIMIT who can resurrect them; Daleks would want to expand and conquer regardless. And even THEN...they set it up to accept the testimony of their greatest enemy? It just doesn't bear scrutiny.
That said, there are some great bits. I love Churchill. I love all the war stuff. I still laugh at, ''YOU DO NOT RE-QUIRE TEA?''
And I also agree about Big Bang. People can rag about RTD's finale endings all they like; this was no better. (I would argue it's not even the best-explained ending.) I am hoping for better this season.
Never got into it past the pilot, but there were so many "story ideas" of Gene's floating around in the 1990's-2000 that I may have crossed up the story of Andromeda's "pitch" with that of "Earth:Final Conflict."
As for Troi and Cally, I respectfully disagree. I noticed the similarities back in Sept. 1987 when TNG premiered. Yes, Troi is mostly based on Ilya, who was partially based on the TOS episode "The Empath", but I still contend Troi is also influenced by Cally.
DAMMIT! Stupid talkback ate my post.
Anyway...agreed about Victory and the ending, but other stuff didn't make sense either. The whole plot on the part of the Daleks seems crazy overcomplicated. Plus, it makes no sense that they would design a security system that can be unlocked by the testimony of their greatest enemy. What if he died? What if they couldn't work out a way to trick him into saying that?
PLUS...Daleks exist to expand, conquer, and destroy non-Daleks. You'd think they'd set up those progenitors to be switched on by ANYBODY. Why restrict people from zapping more Daleks into existence?
There were some good bits. I like Churchill, and I love all the WWII atmosphere. I still laugh at ''YOU DO NOT RE-QUIRE TEA?'' And I like Bracewell overall.
Also did not like the magical ending of The Big Bang, and I don't even think it was the best-explained finale. I am hoping for better this season.
Well, I do expect things to get reversed, so people can die again. It might even be put Jack back to his not dying status, though I keep having a feeling that all of this was done merely to make Jack mortal again so that people watching Starz don't have to worry about understanding why Jack can't die.
If they kill Jack I don't think it will be permanent. I see Chest Wound Man being toast before the end, though. I suspect Gwen will be back in Wales, and possibly having Jack leave so that it can be an all-American Torchwood after that. (Though the thought of that might not be as bad as it sounds if John De Lancie were to become Torchwood full time.)
...simple, sweet and a little bit creepy. Could quite easily have been episode 3 of the run (as was originally intended) but they probably made the right choice in switching it with the Pirates episode. It's really well directed by Richard Clarke and beautifully designed by Michael Pickwoad. Feels a bit like Sherlock in terms of editing and shooting style, especially at the start.
if you claim it's inspiration, you can try to dodge the stealing claim.
Still, a lot of these things have come from written liturature before showing up in TV or movies. Still, Blakes 7 borrowed from TV and movies. They'd have liked to have borrowed more from Star Wars, but didn't have the effects budget. The somewhat original thing (for visual media) was to actually call the evil empire a Federation instead of an Empire. TV executives wouldn't have known what to do if it had been called The Instrumentality or The Concordance instead.
(Now, it might be amusing watching all of Blakes 7 again just to spot the points where Kevin Smith's 'independent contractors' arguments can be made about the Federation, just to see if there's points that would make the rebels look worse.)
and he said he wants to move on from science fiction and get back into things like comedies.....
....so, I guess we're only going to get more Torchwood on Starz if Rusty sticks around and turns it into a sitcom.
... the only downside to the amazement that was series 5.
It just felt like it did not belong. Truly awful IMHO in order to set up a new race of Dalek.
Could have been so much more, but Gatiss was completely heavy handed.
However, I am looking forward to this next one and the God Complex as my 2 picks of the second half.
...after the mindbending opener of the first two episodes.
It was just good honest pure fun hokum!!
And I will shut up about it now or risk V'Shael hunting me down.... ;))
Hope you are well my friend!!!!
not only that, Rusty could kill Captain Jack by sticking him outside the Red Dwarf, where it's cold outside and there's no kind of atmosphere....
then haul him inside the ship so he can keep dying in other Rimmer-induced accidents.
I was ambivalent about it on first viewing, seeing the plot holes, but I've found on repeat viewings that I've mellowed on those, and get taken more with Bracewell, and can overlook the plot holes just to have the scenes of the Spitfires in Space. I certainly mellowed to the point that I actually enjoyed it when Danny Boy popped up again in A Good Man Goes To War.
(It raises the question about if the Doctor is keeping that Spitfire parked in a TARDIS garage somewhere or if he's having Captain Jack take care of it - 'here, look after this for me, we might need it at some point but don't want to cause any more timey wimey problems in World War II - oh, and I'll see you again in about 65 years, but I'll be my previous regeneration that you haven't seen yet. Look for the sneakers. Oh, and he's not a hat man. I like hats now. Hats are cool. Especially fezzes. And World War I aviator's helmets and goggles. Do you have one of those, Jack?'. But, what's being done with the Spitfire is a different issue, and possibly we get to find out later we have Danny Boy of the Void Patrol).
I'm doing well, Sam, and hope you're doing the same!
It's much much better than being human. It's as good as the better Doctor Who - even the lesser effort was certainly watchable, and the first story is one of the best things Moffat has written. The third episode is also one of Gatiss' best works, I would rate it as far better than his Doctor Who episodes so far (though that might change in the rankings after tomorrow night). If you like Moffat's Who, you will also like Moffat's Sherlock series.
done in the late 70's to early 80's timeframe. The Federation used as a backdrop was really more like an Empire in how it acted. A band of criminals (justly or unjustly found as being criminal) end up banded together on the run, and a few episodes in find a really nifty spaceship to run around in.
The figurehead for the Federation was Servalan, played wonderfully by Jacqueline Pearce (she was also in The Two Doctors), who inspired later things like Commandant Cleavage, er, Grayza in Farscape.
It was a staple on PBS even into the 90's; I know that when LPB wanted to take a break from Doctor Who in the 90's they'd trot out Blake's 7 for a run, then go back to Who or Red Dwarf.
...Cumberbatch and Freeman inhabit the roles so well you would think they had been born to play them!
The writing is for the most superlative, and the cliffhanger has irked me and my normally placid wife so much that she keeps aking me "When is that Sherlock back on TV??" every fucking week!!
So only got about 20 more times of her to ask then!!
If you haven't yet seen it, give it a go!!!
Not really, unless you consider 'junk mail', 'Sherpa Tenzing', 'biscuits' and 'Amy's ****' as spoilers. All of these things I like in this episode. I like other things too of course, but this is what I'm giving you to look out for tomorrow. And like I said in the midweek Docback, look out for the Doctor doing something he doesn't do very often. You'll know it when you see it...
Oh yeah, agree with that, but I would rather have 6 hours of excellent TV which is Sherlock once per year than diminish the output from Doctor Who, which is inevitably what would happen if Moff were to devote his attention to Sherlock more.
Blake’s 7 is probably my favorite show of all time. I’ll admit better shows have come out since (especially in the 90’s/00’s era of TV) but Blake’s 7 was the most influential “good” show I saw.
What made B7 great was the characters and how they were so opposite the conventional heroes. I can only imaging watching B7 was like watching the Sergio Leone anti-hero Westerns after only seeing the John Wayne Westerns.
The best character was of course Avon, the arrogant and brilliant computer hacker and effective 2nd-in-command of the group (leader in later seasons). His cynicism, callousness, and ability to play the angles made him an excellent foil to the main character, Blake. What made it great was their interaction as Avon felt he could obviously lead better than Blake, but knew he lacked the charisma to get the others to follow him.
Vila was the second best character, a cowardly thief. He was always more aligned with Avon’s politics than Blake’s (as Avon’s ideas seemed the best for survival, no loyalty there), but Vila switched back and forth as his cowardice dictated.
Blake himself was the main character and the only one that could be considered heroic. He was a freedom fighter/political prisoner on the run from a tyrannical totalitarian Universal government (in only the way 70s sci-fi governments could be).
What also made the series great was that two of the best characters were computers, ORAC and Zen. ORAC was an ultra Avon without the desire to lead but more intelligence and arrogance. While Zen seemed like a typical exposition device and standard sci-fi ship’s computer, I actually teared up at his last lines. I was stunned that they could write a background “butler” character so well that I would be so emotional over his fate.
And that was one of the great things about B7, they would routinely kill off characters. Even Blake “died” after the first few seasons (the actor wanted out). Also the “heroes” didn’t mind killing people. None of this A-Team no one dies crap. The show was filled with double-cross, even among the main characters (threatened more often than occurred).
The ending of the series was the most dramatic and “right” ending for the series I could imagine.
The dialog was pretty good. Often Joss-esqe. I still (mis-)remember some of the lines today.
Servalan: Oh Tarrant, I'm just the girl next door.
Tarrant: If you were the girl next door, I'd move.
Servalan: Where would you move to, Tarrant?
Tarrant: Next door
Vila: Avon's idea of diplomacy is to break your legs then say "Lean on me."
Vila: I think I've just made the biggest mistake of my life.
Orac: In the light of your previous record, that seems unlikely. I would predict that there are far greater mistakes waiting to be made by someone with your obvious talent for it.
The B7 Federation was the anti-Star Trek Federation, even the arrow-head symbol was the same just turned 90*. They had a teleporter to get them to planets. But space battles were effectively outside the scope of their budget.
And as many have pointed out, Andromeda and Farscape and probably a bunch of others were highly influenced/derivative of B7.
A well done remake (robbing liberally from the old dialog) could be very very good. A SyFy remake however would be a disaster and a modern BBC remake is a bit sketchy (given my disappointment in many of their new “good” shows). But, in the right hands a remake would be a thing of beauty.
However, this was the BBC in the 70s. So, every planet was either a rock quarry or a industrial plant. The spaceship, Liberator, was annoyingly 3 70s microphones glued together, and the strings on the flying models could easily be seen.
The FX and the overall plots of the episodes/series were certainly the low point of the series. It was the character personalities and their interactions that made the show enjoyable.
It is certainly a show worth downloading (as those of us in the US have no other option).
Specifically, has he come across a version of himself that we eventually saw him regenerate into? Almost certain this hasn't happened, but curious all the same. This would be different from meeting past versions, etc...
A triumph of story over production values.
Space battles between hair-dryers and washing up liquid bottles on string --the Flash Gordon cinema serials looked more realistic.
But I do miss Avon, Violla and the LIberator computer.
No! He hasn't done that yet and as fun as that would be, I doubt it could be done successfully. Unless he happened to meet a future regeneration and both he *and* the viewers were kept in the dark about his identity. Obviously in the real world it would be almost impossible casting someone like Stephen Fry, or even a total unknown, and not have it leak to the press. If they can ruin something, then they will. It's more annoying and frustrating than words can describe.
That would be the way I would want it, keep it a secret at least at first, I'd want to see a drawn out River Song type story with it, that would be really interesting upon the rewatch once all had been revealed.
Of course in my books the ultimate way to do it would be to have the 12th and 13th doctor constantly crossing paths, and do the whole Valeyard thing with 13, so the big bad of the 12th doctor era IS his own future self, always trying to kill him so he will regenerate and become... him.
That was really confusing to describe.
It would also get around the pesky problem of having an evil version of the doctor because there would be a good one simutaneously who would be the hero of the show still. And so in essence we could go from 12 to 14, because 13's story would be covered during 12s arc (I imagine they could both regenerate at the same time).
I guess if they did it that way the BBC could say they were casting a new 'The Master' to help keep it underwraps at first.
But since you dropped his name, I would so love to see a Stephen Fry doctor!
Fry, David Thewlis, Benedict Cumberbach, Rupert grint (when he's a bit older) and James Callis are probably my top 'name' actors I would like to see as a post-Matt Smith doctor
Stephen Fry, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Simon Pegg, Bill Nighy, and Martin Freeman. Pegg, and Nighy have appeared as other characters, but that has happened before. And now that I think about a future Doctor meeting a younger Doctor....and not knowing it....The scene with the 11th meeting Nighy's character, an older 11th perhaps? That would be cool.
Technically he has met future selves in the various multiple doctor stories, but I see the point. It'd be interesting to see if they could do a multiple doc story with Smith being one of the previous incarnations to be called upon.
I'm carrying this over from the end of the last Docback for those who might be curious. I haven't a clue if this has been announced officially, so all I'll say is that I would recommend you all watch the show 'Life's Too Short' starring Warwick Davis, which was written by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. I only mention it because I assume you're all Doctor Who fans here and one of the episodes will be of particular interest to you. Not sure which individual episode you'll be interested in, so it might be best to just watch the entire series. It has other sci-fi related references and is also very, very funny. I wouldn't be surprised if it aired around the same time as the new series of Sherlock (early 2012), but as always, that lies in the hands of the schedulers. And just so you know (for those of you who aren't already aware), this won't be the first time that Messrs Gervais and Merchant have featured our favourite Timelord in one of their shows. Check out 'Extras' (series 2 I believe) for that one.
Sadly, I think that ship has already sailed. Still, never say never. Benedict is a *massive* fan of the show and I suppose stranger things have happened. I just wouldn't bet my first born on it ever happening.
Don't expect to see Cumberbatch as Holmes popping up in Doctor Who, or The Doctor popping up in Sherlock. I think we can safely say that it's *NEVER* going to happen, no matter how fun it might be. Totally different styles. Totally different universes. And no, The Doctor cannot travel to Sherlock's universe using the Tardis. Why not? Because 'The Moff' says so. Ha!
At WhoosierCon II they had as the opening a skit with the Starbug crash landing and Lister meeting the 7th Doctor and Ace.
I wish I had a video of it.
I only remembered it was fun at the time, as a young kid just about to graduate high school.
I would have to think that the Doctor has been planning something to prevent him from becoming the Valeyard. It is a spoiler to the Doctor to now know that the Valeyard will be him during those certain number of regenerations. I just don't seeing the Valeyard being something the Doctor would put on the backburner, especially this close to those regenerations.
In the UK, the ending of Blakes 7 is so historically well known for its jaw-dropping ballsiness, that it's assumed everyone knows about it.
It would be like someone spoiling "Empire Strikes Back" in this day and age. Technically possible, but bloody unlikely.
And I think Alan Rickman should be recruited.
Of course, I guess one could say he is a future version of the Doctor made in one of the changed Time Lines of the Time War, and so does not come out of it.
I remember it had jokes and everything.. it was a fun way to open the convention, to see the 7th Doctor and Ace meet Lister. Really cool.
Of course, I have all kinds of interesting convention experiences. Anthony Ainley seemed to take a liking to me because I shared a name with his father. Carole Anne Ford was upset to learn someone was selling photos of her to sign (she had her own); her husband told her not to be too upset, and so she signed my photo (if I had known she had her own, I would have bought one from her).
Then there was Danny John Jules -- looking like one of the staff at the hotel and not like Cat... someone (not me!) mistook him for staff and was later embarrassed from his mistake...
First off, HELLO! Always a pleasure to have you with us, good sir.
THANK YOU for your reply and perspective re: my "future Doctor" question.
An unrelated matter: a few weeks back you mentioned your wife having recently learned about Docbacks and said she was quite amused (I'm paraphrasing).
Curious re: further details of her reaction?
However, I still enjoy other convention stories.
WhoosierCon II is full of them. Craig Charles made it so.
The night before the convention, he went bar hopping. Apparently, he got real drunk and someone used his forehead as an ash tray. The burn mark was on his head.
Then the first night of the convention, I could hear Craig and Sly outside my door (I was on the second floor, right above the pool) -- they were having an all night party in the pool.
Craig also showed the convention a badge he palmed off a cop, which he said he put on his coat for Series 5.
Sophie had a video cam with her and was video taping everyone with it similar to how people were taking the guest's pictures.
Doctor Who, Benny Hill, and Blake 7 among other quality BBC shows.
Piggy back off what others have said. I only saw the series once, but B7 was just a complete 180 from other SciFi out there that it was a breath of fresh air.
Two scenes come to mind. In the first episode, the scene where they teleport a guy out into space and he literally explodes is cheesy in the special effects, horrifying in the idea, and obvious in hindsight as a particularly nasty weapon of war never seen in Star Trek. The last episode ends with a smile and gun shots which amazed younger me in the idea that there could be not only an ending to a show but a dark one at that.
I'm tempted now to rewatch the series but I'm hesitant knowing that newer shows such as Firefly and B5 would only amplify the cheese factor of B7.
a now that the bulk of the docback's most regular participants appear to have gone to bed, the net is now empty enough for my phone to work on it, so here i am- hooray.
i'll just talk amongst myself for a while. I've been listening to old themes on youtube- if the 50th is, say, a 12 parter, i could envisage
I think one of the main things now is he will potentially become a big movie star, he's already in tinker tailor soldier spy and getting billing in the trailer along side some very heavy hitters, plus he's going to be smaug in the hobbit, I know its just a voice, but still. he could potentially hit it huge and then not be available to come back
I know he said that he would only do the show if he was the doctor, which I think is cool, although he would make an amazing The Master also
My only qualm about him being the doctor is if he was the 12th doctor I think he and Matt Smith are a bit too much a like in appareance and acting style. Not a knock against either of them, but whenever we get a new doctor I always like for the change up to be really startling, makes the whole regeneration more worthwhile.
I do also like the suggestion of Chiwetel Ejifor. He's one of my favorite actors and I think he would be amazing, but again not sure if he's too big/busy to fit it in.
How could the Doctor work for UNIT during the 1970s when the Queen had formed the Torchwood Institute to fight extraterrestrial threats namely the Doctor a hundred years earlier?
I guess the same reason Capt. Jack Harkness who was working for Torchwood and waiting for the Doctor for all those years didn't seek out the Doctor while he was working for UNIT in the 1970s. Wait, why didn't he?
I know the real answer is that Torchwood and Capt Jack hadn't been invented during the time of the third Doctor, but adding in those elements in the later series makes me ask those questions. Surely this could have been dealt with or explained away somehow in the first few episodes of Torchwood. Jack does say he is waiting for the right kind of Doctor...does that mean Doctors 9 or 10 instead of Doctors 1-8? Yes its true those incarnations of the Doctor would not have known Jack or the circumstances surrounding his immortality, but they are still the Doctor and smart enough to figure this stuff out...
Oh god! I just really typed all of that. I am taking this shit way too seriously. Its a fucking TV show! I just answered my own questions.
opening each episode, with a new one at the end. or maybe even an entirely new theme. i can imagine the scene at moff towers now- 'get me grainer on the phone'. 'he's dead, sir'. 'how canhe. be dead? i hear that blasted tune of his incessantly. It never ever stops. Are you sure he 's dead?' 'yes. sir.' 'What a bloody relief'
...so much discussion of potential future Doctors centers on males.
Does anyone think we'll ever see a female lead (Doctor) in DW?
RTD spoke in interviews about the possibility - and the notion of cross-gender regeneration was recently alluded to cursorily In "The Doctor's Wife" (I think it was).
I can imagine a number of significant reasons for deciding that the role should remain male, but it's hard not to wonder what a female-driven DW might be like...
I recall an interview in which he stated he would not like to be a "guest" on Doctor Who. With huge emphasis on "guest". In other words, for those with mild to severe aspergers, he wants the main role.
I think he would be wonderful, perfect even. But I really don't want to see Smith go anywhere anytime soon.
He said he would NOT like to do *AN episode* with emphasis on AN. My memory sometimes does not serve me as well as I'd like it to. And really, why should it at minimum wage and no medical?
Here's the clip:
Oh I certainly hope so. I was rooting for that to happen before they chose Smith.
Joanna Lumley (spell?) was fantastic and hilarious in Curse of Fatal Death. And it did get me thinking of other actresses. One who is busy with a rich film career right now but I think would be a fantastic fit would be Helen Mirren. Can you imagine?? Such gravitas and sensitivity but with a huge capacity for a VERY serious-minded Doctor much like the first.
BUT, Tilda Swinton.... wow... so unearthly, intelligent, yet oddly gorgeous.
But what about someone who is also seasoned like Gemma Jones? Why not *motherly* rather than *fatherly*? Just for a change.
It's certainly been discussed here in the past, Merrick. Distant past perhaps, back when we first knew when Tennant was leaving.
Because they are apparently willing to wipe out the whole universe to take him down.
Which leads me to believe they must be from an alternate timeline or universe (or outside the universe) and ready to fill in -- or overwrite -- the void left over...
In RD, it's established that there are no aliens. There's only humans or mutations of them and other Earth lifeforms.
If you think about it, it's a terrifying thought that only on this planet did quantum physics shape things in such a manner that the Universe was able to comprehend and explore itself. Pushed home the idea that we're wasting such a rare opportunity squandering resources just to make a small percentage of people comfortable on this planet for just a small amount of time instead of heading off into the stars.
Kind of cool that a comedy show of RD had a bleaker outlook than the lighthearted childhood wonder scifi of DW.
There will be no Holly of any form in series 10, sadly. Norman refuses, and I doubt Hattie would come back.
As to a future doctor, I saw a pic today of Garry Chalk in a rather colorful jacket, and a red bowtie, I told him that in that outfit he would be perfect as the Doctor. He responded he would love to do that show!
I remember watching Blake's 7 on PBS when I was younger. I thought it was pretty good. It did suffer from cheap sets but the stories were more adult than DW and there wasn't a reset button at the end of every episode.
And the Liberator was a cool ship.
(Janath, I remember feeling the same. Especially about Zen.)
I highly recommend it.
I don't Think I'm misogynist, but I've always had a certain dislike of the on-board Lois Lane aspect of the DW I have frequented. They may have moxie; they may be brave; they may have spirit. But it all comes down in the end to "The Doctor will save me - you'll see!"
One of the main reasons I have enjoyed River (up to, frankly, the recent overdose) is that she doesn't Need or Want saving. She's quite self-sufficient. She's an asset to the Doctor - not just a member of his fan club. There's an Emma Peel capability that sets her apart from the parade of awed shopgirls and feisty-but-helpless second fiddles.
The Doctor - or his writers, anyway - don't seem to be able to (or desire to) keep a pudding-headed male companion. They start out that way, but eventually they end up growing a spine and getting kicked out of the Inner Circle.
Mickey was a pathetic, moony little snot, and when the writers finally decided to gift him with a backbone, he was soon sent off to an alternate universe. Rory was a complete loss at the beginning, and now that he's worked up to a capable companion, his days seem numbered as well.
A female Doctor would end up with a male companion. And, to fill the "save me" bill, he's doomed to end up being maddeningly stupid and vacuous. There are those who say that The Companion is the audience's 'surrogate.' I'm not sure how well having our stand-in being some squeaking moron would go over.
Now, admittedly, my fan background with the Trek franchise may be blinding me, but The Doctors constant choice of picking (Vast) inferiors as a companion has stunted the character's growth. There's never been anyone who will absolutely call him on his crap, and stick to their guns. No one who refuses to be blown off or distracted, demanding a real friendship instead of being patronized. Someone the Doctor is challenged enough to actually Talk to, instead of being Willy Wonka with a sonic. He has no one to confide in; no one who really has his back.
Yeah - you could say that it's a kid's show.
Although that argument wouldn't hold too much water with Moff in command.
But, even with that taken into account, kids have friends. It's not a foreign concept.
The Doctor is locked in as an almost complete cypher. He's allowed to be the smartest guy in the universe, but not allowed to have any depth. We get to assume he does, because he says "I'm so sorry..." or throws some puppydog look. The last episode gave us just a taste of what's inside him - while he was talking to a holographic voice control interface.
Why is he not allowed to have somebody who can answer him? Refute him, understand him at least on some basic humanistic level, and be a sounding board.
Doctor Who is not sci-fi; it's a superhero show. He has no friends - just admirers and villains.
Soo... uh... Wah!
I'd love them to take that and do some kind of 'time has seriously fucked up' plotline and get him reenacting that scene with him in gear and all the effects cranked up! He really needs to be in the 50th anniversary specials if they are going ahead <p>
McCoy holds a special place in my heart not only because he was the only Doctor I had exposure to growing up (no repeats really on the Beeb circa late 1980's of the old stuff, no internet) but he had an eccentricity that positively bounced off him. His inflection. His mannerisms. I said earlier in this TB that some of his episodes really REALLY haven't aged well but that doesn't take anything away from the fact he fact great. <p>
It's a trait Doctor Who gets so right and in many ways is the main draw. Tenant starred in some dire episodes and I'll be the first with knives out for them, but almost in every single episode you could tell he was having a ball - his performance got you through. Equally Mccoy was almost acting separate to the episode he was in - the 'character' of him came alive. Same with Smith in that I've found his 'era' quite uneven story wise and have a fair few issues with Moffs 'resolution of certain threads, but Smith himself I really enjoy. <p>
Tom Baker, Eccleston, Troughton, Pertwee, hell even Mcgann all brought things to the table that outplayed the dreck that surrounded them at some stages of Who's not so shining days and that's no easy achievement.
As others have said:
Fantastic in everything he does, now no stranger to BBC TV - and those haunting eyes are clearly those of an old soul who has travelled the universe for a millenia.
Also, the girls like him.
As a child I was, and remain to this day, a massive fan of Star Trek. Kirk is a father figure to me and I grew up wanting to be him.
But Blake's 7 was my favourite show as a child, bar none.
I loved the gritty quality it had. That bleak, dystopian future seemed so at odds with the Star Trek's faith in humanity's better nature. Both were equally valid perspectives, borne of their times. 1970s Britain was a pretty bleak place!
Blake's 7 is almost the antithesis of Star Trek. The cast's motivations are rarely noble. They don't always win. And there isn't a happy ending.
As a kid I didn't see the wobbly sets and terrible special effects - the Liberator was impossibly alien and mysterious, Villa was a comedy god and Avon was the anti-Kirk, yet strangely heroic in his own, cunning way.
The last episode shocked me. I just didn't expect it. I can still remember trying to explain to my parents in breathless tones what I had just witnessed. They humoured me, of course, but weren't that interested!
I'd love to see B7 brought back. Not as a remake, but as a continuation.
Imagine this; the Terran Federation has ruled unchallenged for 30 years. A right of succession has taken place and Servalan's daughter now rules as Supreme Commander (Morena Baccarin really does look like the daughter of Jacqualine Pearce).
A young man witnesses the death of his parents at the hands of Federation thugs and vow's vengeance.
Inspired by Roj Blake, he enlists a ragtag crew of misfits and takes his rusty cargo ship on a daring mission; the rescue of a heavily guarded, enigmatic prisoner, held in the Federation's highest security prison. A prison rumoured to be built for just one man - the legendary rebel Kerr Avon.
They succeed, escaping by the skin of their teeth and not without casualties. Yet Avon, more cynical than ever before, doesn't seem remotely pleased - is he really the man they were brought up to believe in?
Enraged by this act of rebellion, the Supreme Commander orders that their best ship be sent after the fleeing criminals - a hugely powerful alien warship found drifting, like the Marie Celeste, in Federation space. They barely understand its systems, but it is virtually indestructible and faster than anything else the Federation has.
And once upon a time this mysterious ship had a sister vessel; Liberator!
Oh how I wish this was a synopsis of a real show. :-(
I think the days of mature Doctors are over - the show, like everything else, has had to adapt over the years and charismatic younger actors have pushed it to undreamt of levels of popularity.
I doubt the BBC would want to rock that boat. Never say never, of course, but I think an older actor might dent the modern appeal a little.
Why won't they bring them out here in Germany, I wonder? Sure, I can order them in The UK or elsewhere... but there should be a german audio track for my wife. Otherwise she'll never watch them. Some might argue, she's lazy... I know, I think so too. But even good old reversible psychology doesn't help matters or anti-matters.
Sherlock S1 made it, why can't Doctor Who 3-5??? Is it THAT important, that it has to be televised first before sold on silver??? Don't understand this cruel world, that seperates my wife and me from watching together... boohoohoo... (wishes tears aside and gives a sad smile to the producers...)
Yeah but Rowan Atkinson isnt a coffin dodger just yet, and he has the right mix of comic flare and darkness that the doctor needs.
I always thought a good storyline would be if in a another universe there is a version of the doctor who has a bad regeneration, maybe something when wrong at the key moment he was changing and it sent him a bit deranged, a evil doctor.
I also thought that you could have an episode where we see a different doctor in another universe who looks different because he regenerated at a different time, and since each regeneration is random, he wouldnt necessarily followed the same order as the doctor in this universe, if that makes sense. This way we could see other actors have a chance to play the doctor in a couple of one off episodes
to get Rowan or another established names like Nighy or the ones that are often banded about as the fantasy league of Docs to commit to the gruelling filming schedule of modern Who for one series, let alone three or more. <p>
You get the feeling Tenant only did three and the specials because he genuinely loved the show and had done since he was a child.
It would have been better if he had time to memorize it and play it from memory; one can tell the problems involved with a first-off blind read through. Nonetheless of the Doctor who could pull off the speech I think it is Matt, Sly, Colin, Jon and Patrick.
There was an alternative ninth doctor in animated form played by Richard E. Grant
It would be very cool if this ninth doctor was from an alternate universe without the time war - get Matt Smith to meet up with Richard E. Grant - who was also in the Curse of Fatal Death. There's been transfer between universes in the past, who's to say it couldn't happen again in the future!
BTW - long time lurker here guys, finally jumping in!
Just on a side note if you search IMDB for Torchwood, it shows a new Torchwood starring Eliza Dushku as well as Barrowman and Miles, has anyone else heard about this one yet.
BTW Red Dwarf was the best in recent British Comedy, it makes you wonder that the mother country that produced this and shows like Citizen Smith then make Outnumbered and other such crap.
Only another 7hrs 21mins left in the UK, think I may watch LKH again this afternoon
Oh I know it can happen, I just can't see the circumstances arising where the BBC and the said established older name could come to an agreement. <p>
I've long wanted Hugh Laurie to step in once he hangs up the House cane next year. With the rogue and dry demeanour he reinvented himself with in House, coupled with the brilliant and varied eccentricity he brought to British comedy in the 80's/90's he really would be a stellar Doctor.
You know a crazy Doctor Who crossover I would think would work?
The Doctor is trapped on earth without his TARDIS. He opens a restaurant. It's a disaster. His companion calls in Gordon to help. In the end, Gordon will turn out as being a Time Lord in human form (fob watch).
...I couldn't think of anything more repugnant!
they would have to disinfect the Tardis set after he used it, or completely burn it down and scatter the ashes across the most barren place on earth.....yuck!!!
*****I always thought a good storyline would be if in a another universe there is a version of the doctor who has a bad regeneration, maybe something when wrong at the key moment he was changing and it sent him a bit deranged*****
Not quite as of what you speak, but wasn't that slowly happening with Tennants Doctor throughout his "specials"?
You could see the weariness and the darkness creeping up inside him, to great effect during Waters of Mars and The End of Time.
Going full on evil in an incarnation of the Doc simply wouldn't work as there is no protagonist to root for and IMHO would alienate your audience; we WANT to love the Doc for so many reasons.
Plus, and evil version of the Doctor- would that also not be the Valeyard?
I couldn't get past McCoy as the Doc (at that time- I am now rediscovering his works and am enjoying them a whole lot more thanks to age...mine, not his!!!) primarily because of a) his frigging companions of which I both hate with a passion, and b) because the BEEB had had enough of Who by that stage and the death knell had been sounded, and c) I was in my late teens, had college (later University) and the fairer sex/alcohol to keep me companion.
You hit the nail on the head though- there have been some shitty Who stories out there since the beginning (and in a show that's close to 50 years old there would be, wouldn't there?? You can't hit a coconut every time after 779 episodes!!) but it's been the Doc who has carried you through them!
BBC Press release- Doctror Who will now air at 10pm and contain significant bleepage.....
...Ramsay informs us that it now a f****** Tardis, you stupid c****, and that he is a f****** time f****** lord from a c****** planet called f****** Gallifrey....
Classic Who JUST like the olden days!!!
I really don't see a problem if the doctor regenerated into a female but I really can't see that happening until the series is done with River Song.
Hinting at a relationship is one thing a Lesbian Doctor is another (although it would makr for some great TV) The only chance of that is if Russell T Davis returned.
What I've always wanted is for the Doctor to regenerate into something less human looking. A Klingon stle doctor would add a new challenge to the show. How would he fit in to human society? How would this affect his ability to travel into the past/ Would the show relocate to fully planet exploreing tales?
I doubt that would ever happen but I can always hope.
I think it will happen at some point, and I'm okay with it if they do, as long as they cast someone who is quirky and charmismatic and compelling like they have with the male doctors.
In the same way that Matt Smith gets a lot of mileage as a very young man playing a very old man, the right actress could get a lot of mileage out of a woman (young or middle aged) playing someone who has spent most of their life as an old man.
I guess that's sort of what they did with Jadzia Dax on DS9, who was always one of my favorite characters.
An immediate good casting choice for a female doctor doesn't spring to mind, but there are a LOT of great british actresses so I'm sure someone could work.
Kate Winslet maybe?
...as much as some would find it cool, after this amount of time spent with him looking human it would be futile to change.
Also, psychologically we are more inclined to root for and become emotionally involved with someone who is akin to our own species.
The one thing that always makes me sad when I watch 'the next doctor' is that he turns out not to be the next doctor. Not that I wouldn't have wanted Matt Smith, but I thought he was also really great and would have been a great doctor.
After months of planning, research and brainstorming I am embarking on the enormous task of trying to write my first novel.
Since it's a long weekend I've decided to lock myself in with lots of potato chips, frozen pizzas and coffee and write as much of the first draft as I can over the next 3 days.
Tonights doctor who will be my reward for a long days work, but I need to avoid the docback in the meantime, 1) I don't get distracted, and 2) to avoid spoilers as with the timezome difference plus I need to wait for it to be dark to watch this episode, so all of you docbackers over in the UK will have about 8 hours head start on me.
Yes, that would be a good way to end what was started in The Lodger. And I think it would be a unique way to do a Who episode, and perfect for Gareth Roberts, who could add all kinds of humor in it.
3/4th of it would have to be as a normal Kitchen Nightmares episode. Then the twist and the match for the universe.
I can imagine the Doctor giving Gordon his "fish fingers and custard" as his "specialty" and seeing Gordon's reaction!
Yeah, only 3 episodes of Sherlock - but they're each 90 minutes in length, so essentially TV movies. The unaired pilot is worth watching only for curiosities sake after you've watched the proper thing...
I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but I'm a natural born cynic with high standards when it comes to other peoples work (and no standards when it comes to my own...) so here we go:
I generally don't like Gatiss' writing. I find it unnecessarily twee. So my first prediction is a personal one. I'm probably not going to like it.
The story was originally supposed to be in the first half of the season, so expect it to be isolated from the season long arc, unless there's some judicious editing.
Gatiss' plots are often full of holes. I expect that too.
An emotion driven solution instead of a tech-based solution. (Bracewell, Lazerus, etc.)
And Gatiss doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for the Doctor as a character. He's often been at his most un-Doctorish when Gatiss was writing him. So I expect the Doctor to do something like cry like a little girl in this episode. Something particularly unDoctor like anyway.
Note I'm not saying the Doctor shouldn't cry. He has done in the past, and it's worked. I'm just saying I think there'll be some scene in there which makes me wince, though maybe Matt Smith will carry off whatever is put in front of him.
Regardless, I'll still be watching eagerly and cheering along like a mad monkey come 7pm BST.
As my phone tends to be bit ofh erratic when it comes to there posts, please excuse the typos and those instances when i seen to be addressing an arbitrary poster.
re Blakes 7 if youlike your early 80s sf dystopian i recommend Threads wi.ah remains one of the most depressing things I've ever seen., but that's nuclear holocaust for you.
agree it went to pot. in 93. ifinally watched the US pilot. on YouTube last night terrors- it was rubbish!
And all this talk of female doctors- is it too obvious to mention Suranne Jones? or Kathy Burke?Actually whoever mentionedTilda is onto a winner but i can't see it happening. Julie Walters sf
rebel scumb! been working on mine for 6 years now and am about half done. Maybe it's a bit too complicated.
And one other thing whilshere- in response to the Pbshistory last night, here is the UK equivalent. It is about 6 English imperial minutes long, or 7 if you're an. American.
...we were forced to watch it as part of English Language at school, and it IS one of the most depressing pieces of TV I have ever witnessed.
When they are forced to bite through the umbilical cord it is awful...... :(
...going into it with your (for want of a better word) pre-conceptions.
It is one of the episodes that I have been looking forward to immensley, which tends to mean it will certainly not live up to my expectations, although i hope I am seven shades of wrong.
I, too, have found Gatiss to be hit and miss regarding Who, only enjoying 1 of his previous output (Unquiet Dead), but I think he can knock this one out of the park!
...I agree with the point that the bomb being defeated by love is weird. And someone brought up the speedy construction of the space spitfires, and that' definitely valid. But I did love the bit in "A Good Man Goes To War" when Dannyboy turned up. I wasn't terribly fond of the pirate episode, but it paid off for me when they showed up too.
Don't be silly - everybody knows he's an Androgum.
It is amusing to think if they shot The Two Doctors today and you had Gordon Ramsay instead of Shockeye. Gordon Ramsay vs. Colin Baker, the Doctor who manifests an ego as big as Gordon's.
Romana (especially Lalla Ward) was able to stand up to the Doctor and would have his back. In fact, in The Horns of Nimon Romana effectively took over the Doctor part of the script, leaving the Doctor to faff about and do whatever he wanted.
in addition to the ones mentioned (Valeyard, multi-Doctor stories including Time Crash, Tom Baker and the Watcher), there are other times where he's interacted with his future self:
Matt Smith meets his future self in The Big Bang. Granted, it wasn't a very-far-in-the-future self, but it should still count.
Also, although you didn't see the Doctors themselves interacting, in Battlefield you had the future Doctor who was Merlin leave a message for his Sylvester McCoy past self.
In a similar vein of message passing, you do have the future Matt Smith Doctor sending the TARDIS envelope to the younger Matt Smith Doctor.
Back in the 80's I was disappointed to find that Colin Baker wasn't going to do a regeneration scene because he was only offered 4 episodes that season. At the time I thought that the BBC had missed a great opportunity. They could have had the 7th Doctor start out, from the point of the viewer, as the 6th Doctor's companion. When we first see the 7th Doctor he doesn't have memory of his past at that point, but he helps the 6th Doctor on something and Colin brings him in as a companion. During the season he gets his memory back and realizes he's the Doctor (which could have been the end for the 2nd or 3rd story), and in the 4th story Colin Baker dies and regenerates into the 7th Doctor but has lost his memory during the regeneration. At that point, the companion-for-a-season 7th Doctor takes the newly regenerated 7th Doctor back to where he first met the Colin Baker Doctor in order to preserve the time line. This was the season after Trial of a Time Lord, so I had thought that it would have been a nice way to have had a nice linking arc for the season after (we didn't know at the time that they were going to dump the season arc).
That seems to be one of the types of things he liked. I could see him going off and sulking with the Sontarans over being left on the sidelines.
I'd still prefer the Androgum option (with some more human augmentation) for Gordon Ramsay, though. It could make for an interesting post-watershed episode when Gordon succombs to his Androgum genetic imperative and decided to serve long pig, and the Doctor has to stop him.
You don't set it so that the Doctor meets all the Red Dwarf people. Set it so the Doctor lands on an abandoned spaceship that's huge, with only a sentient computer that's gone loopy after being left alone for far too many years (this would be before Lister was woken up). You could have Holly pulling up holograms of the crew (it wouldn't have to be Rimmer, but you could always have him).
Or, the Doctor pops in just in time to keep Rimmer from causing the initial problem, changing the timeline and letting the Red Dwarf go on about it's business. Then, you could so something like The Ark and have the Doctor land on the ship several years later, so you have an excuse to show an older Claire Grogan along with Lister.
We've never seen a Future Doctor in an episode who was introduced as a future incarnation of The Doctor and then seen The Doctor regenerate into that incarnation. Yes, there's the Valyard, but we haven't seen The Doctor regenerate into the Valyard. There are no episodes with the Valyard as the current Doctor. The reason is obvious -- no producer has wanted to lock himself/herself into casting, nor have they wanted to do this to an incoming producer.
As for Blake's 7, it is amazing. I'd love to see a feature film treatment of Blake's 7.
Big Finish have an audio version of Blake's7. I haven't heard it , but I intend to someday.
There is a lot of speculation that Blake's 7 actually does take place in the Doctor Who universe and is a kind of spin-off. The Federation in it is similar to things we see in the Pertwee era.
And the Daleks were meant to be in it, at one time.
No major plotholes that leapt out, apart from the old woman being transported to the house but no more seen of her until her emergence the following morning.
Though the use of emotion to save the day is definitely becoming a Gatiss trope.
The one and only version. I've yet to be convinced there's more than one running about the place.
The only slight indication that there might be more than one (IMO) was the Regeneration Disabled line from last week.
And I can't think this is the ganger doctor in this episode, since in the original broadcast order, this would have been before the Ganger doctor was created.
have shat myself. Very good, classic Doctor Who. Not the best. ever. but certainly very very solid stuff. Everything you want from a Saturday night standalone. Wasn't too keen on the fade out of the conversation at the end, and the 'death at Silencio' screen shown yet again....... but then I suppose not every ending can have Amy melt into a puddle of goo.
First thing- a couple of comments in the episode..
"Good to be all back together again (pause) in the flesh...."
"When i was your age, oooh about a thousand years ago..."
I don't believe that either of these were throwaway phrases, but have greater conotations which we shall see later on!
As for the episode itself, great!!
The opening montage of them knocking on doors and getting erm....rejected is priceless!!!
Gatiss keeps the writing tight, with a slow build and as creepy as fuck atmospherics. This episode MAKES you jump, guys!!! From wheezing old women outside of a window, to grinding lift noises, to, well.....
the monsters in it were suitably scary- the transformation into wood is done extremely well, and the colour draining away is just eerie!!!
Matt Smith is just AWESOME!!!! His speech to the father "These eyes are old......." gave me goosebumps. HE IS HE DOCTOR!!!!!
Arthur Darvill once again threatens to steal the show with his humour. And him picking up an oversized mop had me pissing myself laughing!!!
And a great redemptive finish between father and son. What is not to like??????
The final shots of the view screen and the Docs death date, followed by the ending to the "song........." (you will know when you hear it, listen to the LAST moment!!!)
My 10 year old daughter sat next to me on the sofa and kept shrinking into me. I asked if she was okay. She replied with "Dad, I'm VERY scared!!!!!"
Mr Moffat, Mr Gatiss.....job done.
the only thing that jumped out at me were the words perception filter.....
I was going to say it was pointless but at the end it showed the date and location of the drs death.
I dont think that episode really explained anything except that george was alien, it never explained how george came to be there as his mom and dad couldnt have kids.
the monster toys were a bit lame.
Am I being really thick here or was this whole episode about having a gay son ?
Kid has some problems, parents don't know how to cope, kid locks his fears "in the closet" parents think about getting him psychiatric help, Dr turns up. Demonstrates that the kids fear is all about rejection, Dad learns to love kid despite him being a different "species" DR leaves, says he'll be back for puberty.
Don't get me wrong. Thought it was a great way to tackle that subject, but why isn't anyone bringing it up ?
Near the end I thought how great it was to have a standalone episode with no pointless reference to the death of the Doctor (like in The Doctor's Wife).
This did not last, of course, but at least it was at the end of the episode and didn't disrupt the flow of the story.
Anyway, for an obviously budget-conscious episode, I enjoyed this. A lot. Really well-made with lots of amusing asides. Great performances all round. Gatiss really captured the whirlwind nature of this Doctor to humorous effect. Previously I've just found the Doctor's too-fast-to-keep-up-with stuff slightly annoying, but it worked well here.
This was my second-favourite episode of the season so far, after The Doctor's Wife.
Right I've been around trolling these docbacks since, well, the very beginning! But I've deciding to start contributing simply because if you're a fan, you must naturally enjoy discussing your favourite and characters, and dr who is certainly both!
I am enjoying these series a lot, I think it was sort of twisting itself up in knots quite a bit and am really pleased they decided to take a wee step back and just do a straightforward scary standalone tale. I thought smith was gd but a bit marginalised and enjoyed the creep factor to the episode. It did kinda go nowhere once the audience figures out what's going on, which I think happened a gd bit before the characters did. But I thought it was one of gatiss' better efforts!
Ok long winded but hopefully they won't all be like this!!
..no River Song in sight. It was a breath of fresh air, and was aired at just the right time.
With regards to Ganger Doc- in TIA the Doc said his age was 1108, so he's been hanging about for a while. Why not have him appear in this episode? I firmly think that this is the Doc who will die at lake Silencio.
Our 909 year old Doc could be somewhere else, which leads me to believe that there could be flesh clones of Amy and Rory hanging about the place.
An ok episode, nothing really scary or surprising, whilst i respect Mark gatiss as an actor i've never really enjoyed any of his who episodes as much as some of the other non Moffatt writers. I though Victory of the daleks was ok but it needed to be a 2 parter.
For me this is the 2nd worst ep of the season with the pirate ep being the worst
next weeks ep does look rather spiffy though.
Rated it 7/10
Thought that the idea of having an alien child who thought he was going to be sent away and then put all his fears into the cupboard was nicely played out.
So Rory's "lets let the mosters have him quip" landed him and Amy in there, the rasping old lady scaring George when walking past his window ended up in there as did the nasty landlord. And then the Doctor and his dad when they realised he wasn't human ended in there.
Matt Smith was on top form " Listen mush I've been around the block a few times. In fact they've knocked down the blocks I've been around, built new ones and I've been around them too"
Loved all the shadowy bits and that ominous orangey lighting that is prevalent on housing estates as well as the dodgy lifts.
Well above average for a budget episode.
Nah, it was another one of Gatiss's comments on illegal immigrants, only this time the dirty foreigners brainwash you into not realizing you've let them live rent-free in your home. Coming over here, playing with our fucking doll-houses...
The reason why it wasn't brought up by anyone is because it might be considered a (SPOILER). I don't mind reading them, but, some people do. You might want to put the word, (SPOILER) in your subject next time for the Who fans that need it.
...I certainly hope you do enjoy it. It is almost stand alone, and a great slice of entertainment.
As I type, my daughter is watching it again. She must enjoy being scared, so I will have to find out where I put that Exorcist dvd... :))
That's a valid reading, equally valid though is to suggest that most parents feel like this at one point and that the moral of the story was more generic, and less specific.
Having said that- I don't know many boys who have dollhouses in the closet, so perhaps it is in there.
I think a few things hurt it, among of which, the Daleks themselves.
However, I do think it would have been great if it didn't have to be used as a vehicle for the new Daleks. Everything but that really works, and it was a nice nod to my favorite Dalek story, and one of my favorite Doctor Who stories of all time, Power of the Daleks.
I am not too enthused about Victory of the Daleks, but I appreciate elements of it nonetheless...
....not everything has to be a euphamism or agenda for gayness.
I am going to leave that to RTD, Lordoflight and Torchwood.
It would also be a little inapropriate to use an 8 year old boy in this way, yes? If anything I would have said it was about conception, childlessness and the pain of having to cope with it.
Not having a pop or anything here, just wondering why almost everything has to boil down to this. Please don't take offence at this post as none was intended at all, nor am I trolling or seeking an argument.
..Gatiss **MUST** play the Doctor.
Think of The LofG and the the super offbeat Mycroft - you know he's got the acting chops. Throw in his love of Who, and it's just bloody obvious. Definitely gonna happen.
IT CANNOT BE OTHERWISE.
Gatiss is a fixed point in the Whoniverse.
I always prefer it when a relative unknown plays the character. Gatiss is too well known from other things. I can't see myself ever accepting him as the Doctor. I'd always see Gatiss when I look at him.
Ugh. I've been two minutes and already indulging in wild speculation. Any who!
So they've made a massive deal about the doctor having to die, he definitely dies, that's definitely the doctor, that is indeed the doctor, rivers in storm cage for killing the doctor, it's a fixed point and yadda yadda yadda.
So, that is what the universe thinks is going to happen, it's what the tesselecta records as fixed history, it's what Amy and Rory 'saw' happen. River een panics and shoots at 'herself?'. SO!
The question is what's the 'out'? What really happens because not only can the doctor not actually die and go away (naturally), but moffats earlier episodes with river don't depict her trying to warn the doctor or changing what happens, so one must assume following the events she becomes aware of the greater plan and gleefully refers to it as "spoilers". So she happily serves time in storm cage to follow through on the crucial cover story that the doctor is indeed dead, the universe must believe that for better or worse. The doctors name as we've seen has begun to change into something more foreboding for the rest of the universe. We've seen big alliances form against him, armies unite to take him down and bitter wars fought in the name of bringing him down.
Could we see a point where the doctor decides that avoid a great catastrophe, a change in himself and realisation of rivers warning of becoming a man to be feared, he fakes his death. And sticks to it. The universe finds a balance when the fear of the great Doctor subsides.
Is Moffat going to start again, really take the doctor who story forward from it's established hallmarks? Will the doctor go into hiding? Take a new moniker? (Gasp!) cease travelling in the great blue box?
All of course leading to a massive resolution for the 50th birthday? I'd love that. I'd love for the story to take a drastic shake up like that and gradually move toward the return of the doctor in his former glory.
Ha ha moff! I know where ur going!.....
Or not. :(
I always kind of liked that. It's touched on nicely when he slips away all the time, like in the Beast Below. "Yes, but think of the stories they'll tell."
What I don't understand myself, is why the Silence and their cronies are so terrified. He so often warns the bad guys, gives them every opportunity to leave in peace, and it's not like he wipes them out with impunity. (Silence were an exception.)
First, I would like to say, I absolutely love the story. It's S5's "New Earth" to me. An episode I love which so many think little of, for some reason.
Second, I still think there is something unresolved with it which we will see resolved on the show. I could be wrong. But the whole sequence with Amy forgetting and how Amy is acting on screen when she is telling herself what to do just seems as if there were more involved than the space whale.
think there was something more to that message.
To me it was perfectly clear Amy blanked her memory after learning about the Star Whale, nothing more.
It's like some people had the reaction "She couldn't be THAT upset over a dumb animal. There must be some other reason she was almost in tears."
...not everyone is going to enjoy it.
I saw it and watched the reactions of my 10 year old daughter as the peg dolls appeared, as the childrens laughter rang out eerily through the dolls house, as the lights flickered...
...that was magic. It did exactly as it was supposed to.
Oh, and a great comment by Gatiss on Confidential- Chris Eccleson is like William Hartnell to some now."
So very very true!!!!
I know of LOG but never had it on air, and couldn't get into it the little I've seen of it; but I expect I would like it if I saw it from the start to finish. I do like many involved with it, from the little I've seen of them elsewhere..
Always fun listening into the docbacks, but going to continue to get involved a bit more, so here's my thoughts on tonight's episodes plus a couple of comments on some of the other things that have been talked about on this thread these last couple of days...
Thought it was good, if not great. Some nice ideas and throw away lines and some nice Poltergeist references which I appreciated (@SJW Maybe you should start your daughter on that before taking her all the way to the exorcist, since it's down hill after that).
Thought it was scary enough and really liked the doll design.
Not sure it's a gay metaphor though, sorry.
Just want to add my voice to those recommending the first six seasons, grew with Red Dwarf and quoted the "White hole" speech ad nauseum with my friends, and if you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to watch it.
Never seen it but Bizarrely, a friend of mine leant me the first series on DVD about two months ago and I still haven't got round to watching it, but am now going to spend the week watching it and I'll let you all know what I think next week if anyone's at all interested.
If you've bothered reading this far (this post got away from me somewhere) thanks. Might not post often but always reading, keep on doccing
Thanks, anything to get the Doctor more popular, been a fan since I wrote my first story on a typewriter that belonged to my Grandad, only had red ink left and was called the 8 Doctors (written in Sylvester McCoy's time when I was 8).
It had a whole two sides of everyone basically saying hello to each other and finished with the creation of a bastard race called, I kid you not, the Cyberleks (see what I did there?). Hopefully my writing's improved since then!
I've been a fan since 1983 or thereabouts. Back in 1990 I started writing my own fan-based Doctor Who script for McCoy. The idea was he was forced back to Gallifrey to find out Omega was returning. He thinks Omega is a threat but is wrong -- Omega had become sane, and the real threat, behind the scenes, was the Valeyard. In the end, the idea was to have Omega sacrifice his life to save the Doctor and to become the hero the Doctor believed him to be.
The script idea is still in my head and I plan to use it for a novel, which I've got 1/3 of the way through. It's not Doctor Who anymore, and changed in many ways, but ideas of it are being used for my novel. So you see, even old, fannish ideas, can be used for something -- we get better at writing, but the ideas of youth sometimes are the best!
Got your name right this time (sorry about that).
Ideally hope so, currently doing something similar myself and finally writing something based on a pn idea I've had going through my head for the last 20 odd years.
A great stand-alone episode, with a few arc hints thrown in for good measure. I do like Gatiss's work in general, I think all his Who scripts have got things going for them, my favourite being 'The Unqiuet Dead'. He's good at the spooky stuff! I also think he's a prime candidate for showrunner when the Moff calls it a day, though I hope that doesn't happen for a good while yet.
Oh, and for those that want to see Gattis as the Doctor, YouTube 'The Web of Caves'. This is one of three comedy sketches that were part of a Doctor Who evening on BBC2 some years back.
PS I visited the Dr Who Experience today - SJW, I hope you get to see it, I'm sure you'll love it. I did! Great fun, and well worth a visit!
What if I did see a baby bump, and Amy is pregnant again? What if it is another "she is/isn't " pregnant thing? And what if the other daughter is Madame Kovarian, from the universe in which Amy is not "saved"?
I enjoyed the episode, nice change of pace and feel.
I did notice The Doctor's mention of him being George's age about 1,000 years ago...surely not just a throw away line. There is going to be a get out with the death, whether it's a ganger Doctor or an alternate universe Doctor is to be seen. There was an "in the flesh" line, but there was again a mention of multiple universes. The pirates episode wasn't the best, but it did bring up the multiple universe idea and that's seen mention in the catch up trailer.
I've no clue where it will lead, but multiple universes will play in somewhere....maybe
I've enjoyed this season, it's been very strong. I think Moffat takes things too personally at times with some of the criticism he faces from a small minority, but I like his passion for writing. You can see how much he enjoys it from the stories and dialogue he delivers.
Great stuff. Long may he reign!
Don't forget that this was suppose to be episode 3, and so those comments are probably just relics of the earlier cut of the episode that would have had to set up the flesh Amy reveal.
I imagine the screen at the end would have been another 'pregnant/not pregnant' tease in the original version, or that part was just added in later on.
Just like they would have had to add the Korvarian looking through the door slot part into 'curse of the black spot' which would originally have aired now, after flesh amy had been exposed
I was enjoying watching for tells for my latest pet theories, but then I realized that this was originally supposed to air in the first half ... which suddenly meant everything I thought I saw was just in my head.
I thought that Web of Caves was only the one sketch where he actually played the Doctor. I know he got into trouble for the sketch where all of Classic Who was pitched as 1 26 season story, but I thought that it was a different sketch shown that night.
Ironically, this means that Mark Gatiss is the first person to play both the Doctor and the Master (SPOILER - slightly - he played the Master in the Doctor Who Unbound audio Sympathy for the Devil)
when he said around 1000 years ago I figured the line was significant, but I took it to mean that he most likely had spent about 100 years between A Good Man Goes To War and Let's Kill Hitler looking for Melody (and probably also up to a few other shenanigany things)
Their running around in the corridors reminded me of their role in "The Doctor's Wife". I saw the comments beforehand that this episode's resolution was one of those "hugs" types of resolutions, but I thought it fit well enough in this case. Made more sense than the Bracewell bomb in "Victory of the Daleks".
was a line where (and remember, Gatiss wrote it) that said something along the lines of 'towards the end of the show, The Doctor was played by any cunt with an Equity card.'
Both Colin Baker and Sly McCoy took offence to that.
Gatiss said he realised the line was a mistake after seeing it broadcast. But he was clearly okay with it at the Writing, Pre Production, Shooting, Post Production and editing stages. So I can't help but think what he really means is that he knew it was a mistake when the criticisms came in.
He has had the line retconned out of existence for when the skit appeared on DVD.
I took that as just a figure of speech, the sort any adult could give a child without sounding like a nutter since it's as meaningless to the child as "a long long time ago". Where as an overly specific "When I was your age, 902 years ago" would have sounded definitely nuts.
I'm planting my flag deep in the "Doesn't mean anything" camp.
Am I the only one to think that maybe we are watching some episodes out of order? BTW, Mel Pond was in the eleventh Hour. The scene where the Doctor grabs Rorys cell phone and starts looking at pics? Yep, Mel Pond is the first pics we see...
You just made me dig out my dvd... But after watching I can honestly say I disagree with you. I think that was just some random woman who happened to look similar. Definately not Nina Toussaint-White..
My top pick right now is still Matt King, probably best known from his role on Peep Show as Superhans, and as the dead 80's punk rock star Henry Mallet in the aussie cable show Spirited. He also had a small role in the Doctor Who episode The Shakespeare Code, as well as co-starring in films like RocknRolla, Inkheart and Bronson, as well a supporting role in Moffat's excellent Jekyll series a few years back. He's got just the right mix of quirky, offbeat and charismatic to make for a potentially very cool future Doctor. Plus he's actually shown he does have the range, when given the opportunity. I could definitely see him in the role, but he's probably too much in that limbo position between well known and unknown to even get considered.
Going way off the reservation, I also think that Adawale Akinnouye-Agbaje, best known as Adabesi in Oz and Mr Ecko in Lost, would be a fascinating choice. And he actually is British born and raised, despite his fame being found largely in the US. Not only does the man have serious acting chops and range, as well as genuine screen presence, but it would also be interesting to see a Doctor who could genuinely look physically imposing for once when he chose to be. I just think, much like with the casting of Chris Eccleston back in the day, there's going against type and seeing where that where to take the character. Of course the biggest problem with Adawale is that such a high profile role is likely too far out of his comfort zone, given the whole Lost experience, but you never know...
Gatiss' Who stories always seem a bit hollow to me. Interesting core ideas always let down by rather pedestrian writing and execution, and also entirely too predictable to boot. This latest Gatiss effort was, for me, no exception.
It was passable, if rather forgettable. Much like the previous three Gatiss efforts. I didn't dislike it, I just found it all rather ho-hum. Felt the same way about his Sherlock episode last year as well. Easily the worst of the three by far.
I just don't find the man a very good writer to be honest. He always seems to me to be one of those writers who really needs to be teamed up with someone else, because while the ideas are there, the execution I always find rather lacking.
*that* going against type and seeing where that *were* to take the character could raise some serious character and story potential.
That's what it should have said above. The two word errors were my dyslexia kicking in again, but I don't know where the rest of my sentence disappeared to...
I'd have no problem with The Doctor being female in a future regeneration, but I think it would have to have happened because 'something went wrong'.
In other words Timelords arbitrarily changing genders is not a normal thing, and that the glitch in The Doctor's regeneration causing him to make such a startling change from male to female would be once again as a result of his particular hectic lifestyle, again making his character and choices unique in comparison to other Timelords.
I would absolutely hate for it to become a part of lore than any Timelord can change genders, because that, to me, is just a suspension of belief too far, especially considering the history of the show. But for The Doctor to uniquely end up in that predicament, that I could buy just as long as the female Doctor casting was really good.
Just not Joanna Lumley please, the woman is just a horrible horrible ham.
I've always thought that Damien Lewis would be a great Doctor. He's got the acting chops and I think he'd bring an etherial quality to the part. Plus, he's ginger, so the Doctor would finally get his wish.
As to last night's episode. I really enjoyed it. Not the best of the series so far, but just really enjoyable.
so ya, thought ya, might like to go for a stroll
to feel that warm thrill of confusion that tardis light glow..
I've got some bad news for you sunshine, the Doc isn't well, he stayed with the cloister bell and he sent me along as a surrogate man, I'M GONNA FIND OUT WHERE YOU FANS REALLY STAND!
are there any daleks in the space craft tonight? get 'em up against the wall. and there's one in the transmat, he don't look right to me; get him up against the wall.
and that one looks zygon, and that one's an OOD! WHO LET ALL THIS RIFF RAFF INTO THE ROOM?
there's one changing shapes, and another farts a lot.. if I had my way, I'D HAVE ALL OF THEM SHOT!
*probably* a little teary-eyed at the end there. Hmm... I wouldn't know. ... heh...
Lovely little stand-alone episode, huh?
But the preview for next week? Well I see where a chunk of the series budget went this time. Looks very LARGE.
Can't stick around, getting late. Love you all.
You know, I really enjoyed the latest episode... BUT...
(yes I know I said I was going.. oops)
I know what you mean, and I do think there were some missed opportunities. The ending seemed a bit rushed. A little less running around and hiding from the dollheads and a little more struggle for the kid's trust at the end would have been a nice choice. And the dad bought into The Doctor (and all that entails ) a *little* too quickly for my tastes. But don't get me wrong, I probably liked the episode 10 times more than you did , based on what you've said so far. I just think in spite of this, you make some good points.
The episode was due to be in the first half of this series, as many have rightly pointed out.
However, it would have been rewritten to accomodate the move to the second half.
I don't think there are many throaway lines in a script. There may be things people read too much into, but something like the Doctor's age or mentions of "universes" will all play a part in the greater scheme of things.
It's fun to follow the breadcrumbs and it's fun to slap your forehead wondering how you didn't spot the clues.
The Grand Moff writes what he enjoys watching...trust him, he's The Moff
Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I didn't particularly mind the episode, just found it overall a bit underwhelming really. And I think that feeling is even more prevalent when the rest of this season has been so strong and so hugely enjoyable (in my opinion anyhow). Ah well, on to next week then.
As both a Pink Floyd and Doctor Who fan I've gotta say that made me laugh, nice mash up.
Though personally I think the last line should have been: There's one whose head ends in a point, and another who farts a lot. If I had my way, I'd have all of them shot!
Everyone's a critic, eh?
I might be wrong about this, but I believe that 'night terrors' (previously titled 'what are little boys made of') was not only written, but also shot by the time the decision to swap it with 'curse of the black spot' in the episode order was made.
My recollection is that the announcement of the switch was made only a few weeks before The Impossible Astronaut debuted, and unlike most american shows (other than HBO) who are making the seasons as they air, with episodes being written and shot about 4-6 weeks before their air date, my understanding is that the Dr. Who season is shot in its entirety before it airs, allowing them to maximize budget/schedule to shoot episodes out of order (The Time of Angels was the first episode shot for series 5, and Amy's Choice was the last) and I believe with series 5 anyways they shot all of the river song episodes first and back to back because of Alex Kingston's availability.
Anyways, my point being that any modifications to Curse of the Black Spot, and Night Terrors to make them fit correctly in their new spots would have to be done in editing, andwith a few quick reshoots.
So I still personally think the 'flesh' line is merely that it was originally meant to foreshadow the reveal in 6x06.
But hey, I could be wrong.
As for the doctor being about 1000 years old, I just took it at he was rounding to a big understandable number that George would understand. When I was 28-29 and people would ask my age, I would often just say around 30. (and obviously people like to back peddle their age to 30 as well)
Just my 2 cents.
In a weird way, I kind of like, and almost feel it's nessesary for a show to have a few 'underwelming' episodes each season. Well maybe not all shows, I feel that shows like Mad Men and The Wire had a consistent level of excellence.
But for high concept romps like this, and big scifi shows I'm not really sure why but I feel like a few so-so episodes make the great ones all the more delicious. And as much as I adored 'lets kill hitler' I sort of needed a mental breather after it, and a more straightforward monster of the week episode. I felt the same way about curse of the black spot. It wasn't the greatest episode of all time, but I felt it was appropriately timed in the series to come after such an exhaustingly epic and complex 2 parter like TiA/DotM
For me the biggest appeal of Doctor Who is the sheer variety of formats/genres/locations/time periods the show gets to play with, and I think part of that includes having a fluctuation in quality as well.
That's why I even like Love & Monsters, Idiots Lantern, and Fear Her. Because each in their own way enriches the tapestry and variety of what the show can be.
Really if you're going to share an episode title with a Star Trek The Next Generation episode from the 90's you'd damn well better write something snappy.
Sadly this was more self indulgent Father Issue pap from Mark Gatiss, it's like he's laughing at you all for saying his work is good, it's passable but never really anything other than perfunctory.
Also Matt Smith's hideously over the top acting isn't working for me, here, and the actor playing the kids father's total lack of acting ability combined to make for a self indulgent, middle of the road theater company vibe to the entirety of there scenes together, made me feel embarrassed that 2 grown men did that for a living, as there OTT, desperate to pout, and out manic each otherness meant my suspension of disbelief was not there at all.
Also if someone due to incompetence allowed MY BABY to be snatched I wouldn't be all "lalala" one week later,episode shown out of sequence or not, felt daft and the overall arc this season is so strong non arc episodes all feel like filler, as they are.
Steven Moffats Doctor Who legacy is now he's a great writer but poor show runner, this is
Moffs episodes are rich yet overstuffed puddings, the others lacking his touch, he needs a more consistent vibe and I dare say after 2 years if he doesn't have it he never will.
Two part episode
episode 1: Alarm clock goes off on the doctors console, Amy asks what its for, doctor says "oh nothing" but looks really worried, and rushes off into the tardis somewhere, muttering under his breath. Tardis lurches, amy and rory thrown about a bit, next we see and hear the tardis coming to a stop somewhere. The doctor comes back to the console wearing a bizarre device, which he switches on, almost immediately taking on the appearance of Christopher eccelstone. Amy and rory are puzzled, but the doctor ignores them and strides out of the Tardis. They try and follow, but the tardis is locked down. The cloister bell starts to ring as they shout after the doctor. short while later, the doctor comes back (still ecclestone era), strides in, takes off the machine, and sets the Tardis off on its travels.
What will be revealed is that there are certain points in the doctors life that are fixed, and cannot be changed, very similar to his explanation to the colonists in Planet of the dead, some things simply must come to pass, or bad stuff will happen. He left the tardis to help the 10th doctor, thats what the alarm was to remind him about, that his 10th incarnation was about to get into trouble, but he cant reveal himself as the next incarnation, because he already remembers what happened; his 9th incarnation turned up.
In the second episode, he will seemingly bump into his 10th incarnation, who will help him out of some trouble, but it will in fact be the 12th doctor wearing the disguise device thingy.
Hmm. Ok, that is a bunch of plot hole ridden bullshit, but someone here must be able to flesh it out a bit.....
This would be way of having the old "previous doctors" kinda reunion show, but in a totally different way than before, the actors playing the previous doctors would actually be playing their successors pretending to be their predecessors. If that makes sense.
I'm gonna stop now before i get a nosebleed
You're quite right, it was the first episode actually filmed for this season -
And, yes I am aware of how the scheduling here is and how it is different to the states.
So, perhaps the flesh line is a lead in to what came previously.
Maybe you're right about the age line too, but I just don't see that...it doesn't feel like a writer thing to do. I do think the age and 'universes' will play a part.
We can only wait and see.
I'd bet money on the Doctor's next incarnation being female, because (a) it'll be a side-effect of absorbing River's 'femaley' regenerative powers and (b), because Moffat just won't be able to resist the PC-kudos for being "the bloke who finally made the in-series Doctor a woman. Oh, and black."
I thought the most interesting line was Rory's ~We're dead. Again.~
That got me thinking ... this is the second episode in a row that Amy and Rory were miniaturised. And the second episode in a row where they were knocked out and woke up together.
Apart from this the rest of the episode was really pretty poor.
I mean ... the Doctor is faced with yet another child whose mother did not appear pregnant. But he doesn't think of The Flesh. Instead he's going on about some race called Tenzers, who seem like a rip-off of RTD's rip-off of the TNG episode The Child by way of the Twilight Zone episode It's A Good Life.
The old lady should have been George's grandmother for the sake of drama. Since she knew George, it was stupid that he didn't recognise her breathing and was spooked enough to wish her into the cornfield ... er, cupboard.
It was also stupid to set up Rory and Amy through Rory's quip - it would have been infinitely creepier if Rory had just caught George's eye and then approached him out of curiosity, only to have George run away. Amy and Rory could have given chase and become wonderfully unsympathetic. As it was Rory just appeared a bloody fool.
The father was so completely gormless he became downright despicable, and the mother seemed to have no real reason for being in the episode.
So ... in general I think this Gatiss fellow really should not be allowed to write Who any more. He doesn't get it and he doesn't seem to care about it. It is quite troubling that the Moff keeps trotting him back out as a writer when he keeps failing so miserably.
I mean, yes, my child did get a nice scare from the episode. And I have the occasional daddy issue myself, and did get a little teary at the climax.
But the dialogue was woeful, the premise threadbare, the characters dull, and the payoff minimal. The idea of Gatiss as a potential future show runner is far more frightening than anything else to do with this episode.
In short ... I'd rather have had another pirate episode.
I just double checked on Wiki. The Web of Caves was the sketch with Mark Gatiss playing the Doctor. The one that you are thinking of was The Pitch of Fear, where the entire original run of Doctor Who was pitched to Mr. Borusa as a 26 season 'limited series'. I remembered the bit about any cunt with an Equity Card, which got edited out later when it started showing up on videos. (I think they had included it with The Curse of Fatal Death.) They were both sketches from the same Doctor Who night (along with the sketch where David Walliams kidnaps Peter Davison and brings him to Gatiss' bedroom), you were just using the name for a different sketch.
It's already part of the lore. In The Doctor's Wife, the Doctor stated that the Corsair spent had a couple of regenerations that were female. So, it should be possible for any Time Lord to change gender during a regeneration if they want. For all we know, most of them do try it for a regeneration or two. That doesn't mean that we suddenly need to have Romanus show up instead of Romana....though having a female Master for a story would be interesting (and would be a nice reversal on Curse of the Fatal Death - Moffat might even go for it if he were to bring back the Master as somebody besides John Simm or another skull-faced type like we had in Deadly Assassin).
But... no. Swing and a miss, for me. Even for filler, ~Night Terrors~ was horribly weak.
> I actually timed this out: Six minutes of the first 23 were Amy and Rory walking around the house with flashlights. Just... walking.
If you cut out the teaser and opening credits, that's more than 25% of the first half of the episode. Walking around with flashlights.
Add to that another 4 minutes of pointless canvassing the neighborhood, and old lady shuffling around in the dark - and who knows how much time wasted on George with his flashlight - and that's nearly half the first half of the episode with Zero content.
I'd say the problem is zero script editing, but there simply wasn't enough story there to edit. So we end up watching The Doctor playing with toys using the Sonic as a remote. (which I didn't add to the timed stuff)
Horrible. Horrible. Utter, complete failure. Worst, undeniably, of the Smith episodes.
He might do it, but it might be for only one or two stories. It's always possible that he'd consider doing it as a stunt so that he could have a very short lived Doctor that would regenerate again. If he did this, though, I would expect it to included in his plan to firmly establish that the Doctor has more than 12 regenerations now.
My gut feeling is the whole doctor's death will be dealt with by seasons end, though I could well be wrong about that, and it would certainly be interesting if it stretched out longer.
So one way or the other the doctor will be at the 1100 age range soon, which I guess means he's been up to all sorts of shinanigans between episodes, either signifigant or completely insignifigant.
Afterall, didn't he age something like 80 years just in the christmas special? It could be something like that I suppose.
Or you might be right, could be a big deal.
Moffat also didn't have the Doctor think of the Silents trying to convince the family that this is their child even though she can't get pregnant, or that the Silents implanted the idea that the wife can't get pregnant even after she had the kid. He also didn't have the Doctor think of a Zygon or a Rutan having taken the place of the wife and the baby being a human-alien hybrid
From that, I'm going to take it that we're not supposed to think of these things as get-outs for any old situation. It doesn't mean that the Flesh won't be involved in Moff's season finale, just that we're probably trying to overanalyze a lot of these things.
Given that all the blurbs talk about heading to a showdown at Lake Silencio, I think we'll get some resolution to the Doctor's death by the end of the season. I suspect that the general audience would feel cheated if it weren't something addressed at the end of the season.
We still might not know yet why the Silents wanted the cracks in the Universe, but I think we'll find out about how (if) the Doctor cheats death. We'll probably still have the Silents and the Academy of the Question as something that still has to be sorted out, though, even if the Doctor's death and the whole River Song situation gets sorted out.
I do agree with you that the Pitch of Fear was amazing. I was laughing so hard when I first watched it I almost couldn't breathe.
I had occasion to watch DOTM again today.
Well, okay, I had to watch DOTM again today to take away the nasty aftertaste of Night Errors.
The scene where Rory describes his Last Centurion days as things he can remember sometimes. Like opening a door ...
Doesn't that sound familiar? A human who has memories he can sort of almost recall. Doesn't that sound like ... a chameleon arch?
Rory might be the next Doctor. That would explain Melody's DNA but it would raise the possibility of incest via a marriage to River. That would not be good.
So ... how about if Rory is The Master? That would explain both Melody's DNA and her psychopathy ...
I'm just not sure Moffat would go with his coproducer on Sherlock, given the stress he knows there would be with both Sherlock and Who. For some reason, I actually suspect Paul Cornell even though Paul hasn't written a story for Moffat yet. Hopefully, we'll have plenty of time before we need to really be wondering who's going to replace Moff - I'd rather be wondering about what tricks Moff is going to be pulling on us for the next few years.
I don't think the 'like opening a door' is leading toward Rory being a Time Lord. I think it actually ties in more with the Universe being in flux, changing between two conditions (like the cards changing in The Rebel Flesh) - we have some of the old universe leaking into the new post-Big Bang 2 universe, with the new universe trying to accomodate both states somehow.
It's a personal disappointment for me with the episode, but the look and behavior of the wooden-faced dolls was very reminiscent of the Peking Homonculus from "Talons of Weng Chiang".
Also with the current order of episodes, it marks twice that there has been some manner of tissue compression or active character miniaturization in as many episodes. Gets me to wondering if that would/could be featured in part of the end of season resolution of the Doctor's mortality predicament.
Hopefully, Moff hasn't even started to think about a replacement.
Honestly, I think he probably knows that Night Terrors was a stinkburger, but he had to pay for ~A Good Man~ from somewhere, so we had to get a meatless episode - Or, God help us, Two - somewhere.
The teaser, for example, for the next episode, fills me with a sense of dread and foreboding. Xena, Warrior Redhead. ~shudder~
But even cheap doesn't have to be tedious and horrible. This last episode simply shouldn't have made it to the cameras. Bet Moff was Sherlocking the day this thing got greenlit.
....Neither the Master or the Doctor. I would find it a bit much if he turned out to be either of them.
I would stick with the fact he's an Auton over 2000 years old, which gives him seniority over the Doc in an old age pensioners contest!!!!
Melodys psychopathy is probably nothing more than her being conditioned to bump off the Doc by whoever....
Hope you are well my friend!!!!
Like minded- we know we're headed back to Silencio, and I agree that we'll see how the Doc dies, who kills him, what involvement he had in setting it up, how he indeed cheats it and the repercussions for those who set it up.
Next series will be about "the question" as I can't see that being resolved this quickly and making much sense. It would feel far too rushed.
On another note: there are rumours doing the rounds about the appearance of another Doctor for the Xmas special. I will treat it with the contempt it deserves for now until something more concrete hits.
Regarding Gatiss as showrunner..... I don't know.
Night terrors has hit with mixed reviews (especially on here), but I loved the hell out of it in its premise and simplicity after the mind fuck that was Hitler. I even enjoyed The Unquiet Dead, but didn't care much at all for idiots lantern and VOTD.
50% is VERY hit and miss, and it would concern me somewhat if he was given the reigns to helm an entire series.
Sticking to an episode here and there may work, but I don't think his dark humour a la League of Gentlemen (which I personally loved) would go over well with a family audience.
Hey, I'd like to request something from friendly Docbackers. If any of you watch both the BBC America and BBC versions of the show, could you please post any omissions you notice -- perhaps with the tag OMISSIONS? Lines get cut due to commercials. <p>
The worst cut I ever saw in a BBC to America translation was when I watched the DVD of Sherlock "A Study in Pink" and realized that PBS Masterpiece Mystery had CUT a minute of CRITICAL dialog that provided the motive of the murderer and was key to the series arc.
Since the Question is all about stopping The Doctor from asking ~The first question~ that will destroy the universe, his 'death' would make who they are a moot point, wouldn't it? Their concern would be satisfied.
In a way, it's all very Harry Potterish; both Harry and Voldemort must die to fulfill the prophesy, so they do, but one comes back.
I have to admit, I'm starting to feel really bound by this unending arc. The longer they drag it out the more monumental the ending is going to have to be to satisfy three years of patience with it. Otherwise, we're going to have blowback of Lost-ian proportions.
...who is NOT River Fucking Song.
Some complete bitch bastard who is only out to destroy him. One of equal intelligence.
And it doesn't have to be the Rani. Or the MASTER.
I would certainly tune in for that.
Hey guys below I've put the link for my impressions of last night ep
I rushed this so its more a series of ramblings but I wanted to get it up before people left the docback
Let me know if you gree with anything I've said
My problem, almost entirely, is with the amount of deadspace in the episode. It's HUGE. They could have built a whole subplot in there, just to fill the voids.
They should have.
If Gatiss was showrunner, it seems obvious that the whole concept of timing just eludes him; compare A Good Man to Night Terrors just as an example of a tightly packed episode.
For all I know, it might just be a cultural thing - TV Americano, as it were. But wow - I just found the pacing interminable and unnecessary.
I can imagine the shitstorm if the payoff to it all is nothing short of epic, but, you will not be able to please everyone with the resolution.
Just look at the response this filler episode got here- some loved it (including me) and other hated the hell out of it.
Imagine the finale to this all and the deluge of vitriol spilled if it doesn't live up to expectations. And it wont for all.
Go backa couple of years- the Utopia 3 parter I absolutely loved and enjoyed the end resolution regarding the Master.
the following year with turn left and journeys end and whatnot I fucking loathed!!! Total overkill. 3 Doctors (of sorts), German speaking Daleks... dreadful. I thought it cheapened the payoff to the entire series.
And now we have a very important arc that demands to be finished with a neutron-bomb sized bang. I trust that it will. But I fear others do not. And I fear the backlash going into next year.
Regarding the pacing I didn't have a problem.
(the following is NOT a personal attack my friend, just my thoughts- i would never deem to treat you in that way at all as you have my eternal respects.!!)
I loved the slow build, the creeping around the house in the dark, the feeling of something lurking, not knowing if there was something ahead or behind you- it also gave time for some witty dialogue between Amy & Rory (we're dead...again!!!!- the Doctor's off in somewhere in Eastenders Land etc.)
I am personally very much a child of "Something doesn't have to be happening every second in order to make something enjoyable..." but I can see how others would just consider it a waste of time.
Gatiss is NOT an amazing writer, but I feel he did this episode justice with what he had to work with. They gave him a budget for VOTD and he fucked it up royally.
Especially as 'The Doctor lies' by his own admission. So unless I see something as part of an actual story, then I tend to take things like that said by The Doctor with a huge old grain of salt. Much like when The Doctor said he can regenerate 507 times to Clyde on the Sarah Jane Adventures for instance.
That should say.... something like...
People could see that as having a hint of misogyny. If the only way he could become female is if he is somehow *defective*.
I get the logic in regard to the character and his history, I just don't think people would see it that way. A bit *ribby* if you get my drift.
Note to self: Re-learn how to write just for this place because whoever is in charge of such things doesn't see it as a priority to allow QUOTES.
...is that anything is possible. Will we actually see a female Doctor? Nope. I think not.
But we have seen a female timelord (several times now), so who is to say that they weren't blokes to begin with?
However, sex would be a bit ***funny**** after regeneration.
I had no problem with the pacing of the episode, I just though too much attention was paid to Amy and Rory while more attention to the dad and son would have better served the episode. In fact, as with many episodes lately, I thought it felt a little rushed. 50-55 minutes instead of 42-43 makes a world of difference.
I'd rather have Gatiss (sic) write another disappointing episode than let RTD near the franchise again. "Torchwood Miracle Day" is getting stupider by the episode and it is mainly because the logic behind the story makes no sense but again, RTD cannot seem to write a coherent plot to save his own skin [in my opinion].
No, no, not for The Master. I've been saying for ages on here and GallifreyBase to cast Eva Green as The Rani. Everyone so up in the arms about The Rani being a krap character but in my opinion and many other Whovians opinions, RTD did his best to ruin the characterization of The Master yet future showrunners won't hold that against the character himself before trotting him out of character retirement, so why should it impact The Rani?
if you didn't it's a classic episode of "hammer house of mystery and suspense" called "childs play".. In it, a family come to realise that they are trapped in a dolls house, I haven't watched it thru again, but i remember seeing it when i was younger and found it effective.
RE: Night Terrors, I found it particularly evocative of what it was like to be a small child, not wanting to go to sleep and I am really not surprised to find kids finding it scary, of all recent episodes, i think this one was one of the best observed.
I really didn't get the hate, "worst episode ever" that some people were feeling... This one had "WILL SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF THE KIDS AND MAKE THE PARENTS BETTER AT THEIR JOB " written thru it like a stick of rock, and I think episodes like this are the reason the show has lasted as long as it has. If it scares them in a safe way- kids will remember it, then when they are adults, they'll get their kids to watch the show.
That's why I'd want The Doctor changing genders to be something out of the ordinary and unique to that character, because while I'd have no issue accepting a female incarnation of The Doctor, personally I just don't like or buy the idea of gender change as a matter of course amongst all timelords. If it were to happen I'd rather it be something unique to The Doctor, further adding to that character's own personal history and mythos, and not something that is commonplace amongst all timelords, as routine as changing hats as it were (and we just hadn't seen it until now).
So it is not The Doctor being a female that would be 'broken'(to use your terminology), it is the idea that I personally think that any timelord changing genders suddenly during regeneration should be indicitive that something out of the ordinary had happened. As such, I'd feel the same way about making The Rani or Romana male all of a sudden.
It's not an anti-female thing at all, it's an anti commonplace gender-change thing.
If anyone has seen The Inbetweeners Top 10 Minutes, anytime Ricky Gervais is talking about the show, he's on a set somewhere with a full size TARDIS door in the background.
I don't know when they would have been filming the Warwick Davis series, but that's the crossover.
If it didn't work out well, then with the next regeneration he'd probably just be a man again.
Just like if you don't like a particular doctor, eventually they move on and perhaps the next one is better. The show has been on for 50 years, and been widely different over the course of its two runs. I fully endorse them trying whatever they want, as long as the writing and acting and directing remain of a high quality, and the essence of the show remains the same.
The variety for me is a big part of the appeal.
I'm fine with that to. I've never seen any of the Rani episodes of the classic show, but if it gets more Eva G on my tv then I'm all for it.
And it would be funny to see her and Smith face off against each other, especially after the incredibly twisted relationship they had in WOMB (which is brilliant by the way)
And want her, under oath, to admit that she killed the Doctor "On order of the Movement known as the Silence and the Academy of the Question, you accept and know this to be true"
Sounds like they are operating with the Silence
another cracking docback folks, and it seems more popular than the episode it's about. Personally id rate night wibbles a 6 or 7, which is fairly solid. Couldn't figure out how Amy got back again, as it were, and the motw wasn't in retrospectively a
Let's take a step back from the continuity and look at what's going on thematically.
We no longer know whether anything we see should be taken on face value. Sometimes it should be. Other times, no.
Three of the main characters are focused on death. Rory dies every episode - to the point that even he is remarking on how weird that is. The Doctor is constantly reviewing the date of his own death. River drifts inexorably closer to her own death in the Library.
Amy seemed to have been spared these intimations of mortality but it looks like TGWW is going to see her struggle with fear of old age.
We have an intentionally confused subtext in which there are multiple threats with the same names, multiple universes, multiple doctors, multiple sonics, and, here on the Docback, even multiple Moffs.
And above it all there is The Question. There's not a human in the world who would be satisfied if that question was ~Doctor Who?~. No one. That would be the most pathetic payoff in the history of all fiction.
And the Moff is not known for pathetic payoffs. Therefore that's not The Question whose answer is The Silence.
Seriously, think about it. What was the very first time we all twigged to the fact that something about this universe is very, very wrong? What was the first important moment upon which everything else depends?
The Question is the oldest question in *this* universe. It is the first question we asked upon Moff taking the helm. And we all know what it is:
~Why didn't Amy remember the Daleks?~
In Time Bandits the little people come out of the boys wardrobe don't they?
In Time Bandits all the toys on the floor come to life.
In Time Bandits they go on adventures through time....
I'm I reaching here? or were there some definite nods to Time Bandits here?
Obviously, the question isn't "Doctor Who?"
The Doctor already asked that in ~Hitler~, and nothing happened. So, strike that.
This universe is going to hell in a handbasket, and the cracks are beginning to show to the audience, but not, thus far, to the Doctor.
When it becomes apparent, what will the Doctor do? He'll set things right. And when he does, this universe - the mammoth-riding Churchill universe (and, I maintain, the Silence-who-are-in-the-cracks universe) will probably cease to be.
So there is a means to the end of the universe, and it begins when The Doctor realizes things are unspooling.
And, it Would all start with a question. A question that leads to answers that lead to action that ends the madness. The question, in my opinion, would be the logical end to this universe -
"What's going on here?"
Imagine Firefly as made by the team who made 70s Doctor Who, but darker and more cynical. (Yet still incredibly witty and funny.) Avon is, for my money, the best character ever created for sci-fi television.
Madame Kovarian. She managed to pull the same trick on the Doctor twice. She is talking about an endless war, so from that we could guess that the Doctor isn't permanently defeating the other side. For that matter, Kovarian's side has caused the Doctor's death (we can guess that she has a hand in setting it up, even if she's not the one in the suit pulling the trigger). So, for right now she seems to be a good female foil.
Think about it. The Rani's disguised herself as a companion of the Doctor before. And, if the Doctor were to trust anyone, it would be young Amelia. So, if the Rani really wanted to wrongfoot the Doctor she could appear to look like the young Amelia while retaining all of her intelligence.
as V'shael first pointed out, the Matt Smith Doctor at first thought he was a girl, which would indicate it was possible.
Also, it might be true that the Doctor lies, but when he does there's a reason for him to lie. What reason would he have for lying about the Corsair being a girl for a couple of regenerations.
Also, remember that the Time Lords were supposed to be a very old, very insular, very decadent society. Add the ability to regenerate and it would make perfect sense for them to try regenerations as the opposite sex every now and then. Heck, if they can completely regenerate there shouldn't be any problems with swapping sex while doing it. If they incorporate things from the books, their appearance could change during regeneration to outwardly become different species, and force add beneficial traits during regenerations (in the BBC Books when the Time Lords were fighting The Enemy, many Time Lords were put through multiple forced regenerations to grow armor and other such things). Now, they might not go this far, but changing sex during a regeneration? Easy peasy. And, the Doctor himself thought he had done it once until he checked himself out further.
Night Terrors was just awful. Period. </p>
Re: Female Doctor... even ignoring the fact that they used a trow away line this season that specifically mentioned a genderbending Time Lord (altough it was somewhat implied that this was "abnormal", for lack of better word).. we've even had (as far back as at least the 4th Doc) instances of Time Lords regenerating as non-human. </p>
... that said, No... just no. </p>
While it "can" be done, it's only been mentioned 1 time (2x if you count Curse of the Fatal Death) in 50 years (making it obvious that it happened VERY rarely) and they have consistently been driving home the point that Time Lords "chose" their new bodies @ regeneration, meaning there would actually have to be a compelling reason for "why" the he would switch genders (aside from never needing to leave the TARDIS).</p>
A bit of a curve ball there, but I think Stephen Merchant would make a sum what alien looking Doctor, and be a little different to all that has gone before him. Though I doubt he has the acting chops for the more darker notes the doctor can sometimes bring.
I thought the motw was not particulalry great. However, the question is, what did the kids think of it all? I don't happen to have one close to hand, but there were sufficient creeps, I think, for this one to have been pretty popular, and this despite Amy somehow 'making it back', as it were, without this really being particulalry well explained. We all know that M Ga plays to the bleachers and this one was no exception; it was sufficiently spooky to satisfy the average viewer, I thought, without being in anyway spectacular. And I'm also one of those kind of people who needs the occasional bit of pyrite with my pyrotechnics, something that sticks to formula and reminds you that 'this is a kids show about monsters', so I was pretty satisfied. And it was certainly no 'Twin Dilemma'...
And continuning on the theme of female doctors, I'll put a vote out there for Emma Cunniffe. Or Lee Cornes in drag. Or A Yeti - Yes! Go Yeti!
Assuming this is something Moffat has had lingering around in his mind, the question has to be related to the Doctors name.
There's a great secret. A name, shrouded in mystery. More than a name.
You whispered my name in my ear. There's only one way I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could.
Only one time. At the very beginning, perhaps?
Something to think about.
Ok, one of the things I've thought was great is that the way River and the Doctor learn to trust each other is by whispering to each other the words the other needs to gain their complete trust. It is not the same words (I don't think he told her his name), but the words they learned about the other, the one thing they know will get the other's complete trust.
For River, I think it is he said something about loving her, his willing to do anything for her, even die for her if she wishes. Melody Pond, at this point, seems not to have known real love; she has been raised to be a thing of hate, to be a weapon, to be a psychopath, but not to know love, not to have earned anyone's heart so much that they care for her. When Melody hears what the Doctor is willing to do for this "River Song" she knows it is something she wished someone would do for her. And when she learns someone will... the rest comes through.
Well, with your comments, it made me think, what if River somehow is able to go beyond the lock of the Time War, and to the Doctor's own birth? Maybe the Doctor didn't tell her his name, but she learned it the way the Doctor learned who Amy's baby was?
The speech went like this:
Doctor: “Who wants me dead?”
Teselecta: “The Silence”
Doctor: “What is the Silence? Why is it called that? What does it mean?”
Teselecta: “The Silence is not a species; it is a religious order or movement. Their core belief is that silence will fall when the question is asked.”
Doctor: “What question?”
Teselecta: “The first question; the oldest question in the universe. Hidden in plain sight.”
Doctor: “Yes, but what is the question?”
Now go back to series 5 and the Vampires of Venice... Helen McRory's Fish-Queen-Thing- "We ran from the Silence. There were cracks. Some were tiny. Some were as big as the sky. Through some we saw worlds and people, and through others we saw silence. And the end of all things."
Confirmation not only of parallel universes (and the almost certainty of another Doctor???) and time and space bleeding into each other but also that the question had ALREADY been asked??
If not, how had silence fallen? And why no noise at the very end of the episode?
There is far too much going on here for it to be mere coincidence.
..leads me to believe that it is all around us, that we look but we do not see. I don't think it is necessarily a place or a destination where something is written.
And I'm also of the belief that it is not the Doctors name.
B7 is such an AMAZING Show !!!! The writing is dark, mean and has stuck with me for well over 20 years since I first watched the series. Sure, the SFX are some of the worst you'll ever see from the BBC, but the show simply did things Ive rarely seen in any other drama before or after. It often took no prisoners, and spared no one.... not even the crew. To be blunt, its probably the "meanest" show Ive ever watched. The writers seemed to almost take sadistic joy in skull fucking you almost each and every week.
Avon was this cold, anti heroic bastard.... sort of a Narcissistic, Bizarro Doctor Who in a way.
Blake was this noble crusader who grew and faltered with doubt towards the end of Season Two. Vila.... Vila was too smart, too human sometimes for his own good. Even a computer like Orac wasnt simply a tool, he became a flushed out character. Some of the ideas in the show were WAY ahead of their time....
If youre a fan of Farscape, I know Anthony Simcoe (K'Dargo) really enjoyed it when he was younger. He mentions it on one of the 1st season DVD Commentaries (I.ET, I believe.)
...my 10 year old loved it. She kept shrinking into me as we watched further and said at one point "Dad, I'm VERY scared!!!"
In that respect, the episode worked perfectly.
IMHO it was a very good filler episode placed att the right position after the heaviness of Hitler (just as Black Spot was perfectly placed after DOTM and received a similar reaction on the DocBack to this.).
Luckily I copy/pasted the text before clicking SUBMIT...
Confirmation not only of parallel universes (and the almost certainty of another Doctor???) and time and space bleeding into each other but also that the question had ALREADY been asked??
Only for some strange meaning of 'confirmation'
There's nothing in those sentences that says anything about parallel universes. The cracks the lady refers to could open up anywhere, including other places within their own universe.
Didn't the fish/vampires escape through a crack and wind up on Earth? Absolutely nothing to say they came from another universe.
Ah yes, I have recollections of you mentioning way up there in the docback, when it was young and still so small, that your 10 year old had been, shall we say, appropriately affected by the ep, and I've rooting around the web seeing if I can find further vindication for the idea that this is an ep which really does work well for the kids. I've even taken to watching reviews of it on Youtube...
Not sure why I feel it necessary - I mean, M Ga probably doesn't really need a grown man who really ought to know better defending his work on the internet, but I digress...
Anyway, on the other current topic, namely the question in plain sight; obviously it's 'Do you want fries with that?'
Perhaps lie is the wrong term, but perhaps exagerate or stretching the truth for the sake of a good story would be better. And to do that you don't need any particular reason to do so, other than to spice up the tale being told, or to add to the sense of wonder. Something The Doctor has long been guilty of doing. I mean Hell, my Uncle (may he rest in peace) used to tell fatastic entertaining stories about his earlier days, but I guarantee you that most weren't true, and the ones with any truth to them would have been highly embelished. Point is, people can say anything for any reason, that doesn't mean everything they say is grounded in absolute truth.
As for The Doctor thinking he was a girl upon regeneration, once again in my opinion a mere throw away joke line being given way too much credence by fans as meaning more than it actually did. Kind of like the 'beard' joke about The Master in the Time Crash children-in-need special. Not everything has a deeper meaning or truth attached to it, sometimes a jokey line is just a jokey line.
I mean you can certainly choose to believe such throw away lines if you want to, but my point is there is also another side to that, which is just as valid in my opinion.
What a brilliant actor...
He was great in "Outcasts" I wish that show would be getting another series.
He was phenomenal in "Ashes to Ashes" I HATED his character, and he was absolutely brilliant at making me hate him....
I would love to see him cast as a series regular in any halfway decent sci-fi series, and/or any other show I might watch....
on a completely different topic... Anyone know if/when there might be another primeval series?
In The Eleventh Hour, the very first question Amelia asks the Doctor is, are you okay. He answers:
~Just had a fall. All the way down there, right to the library. Hell of a climb back up.~
IN PLAIN SIGHT!
I enjoyed series 5, and while it didn't really end on a huge cliffhanger, there was a little bit of a what the eff does that mean moment right at the end...
I've heard talks of a primevil spin off series being developed in Canadia... and possibly a feature film? but my source it wikipedia.... so grain of salt...
Did anyone notice there were several different Optimus prime Toys on the floor... Red and Blue colors mean something on this show... I'm beginning to quite possibly be almost sure of it.
on the refrigerator there were a couple of different red and blue magnets arrangements...
Amy's front door, is blue wood... some of the glass window sections are RED.
The doctors bow ties....
...Even if you take that example as 100% truth (which I am actually happy to do so, by the way), that doesn't mean those same rules apply to all Timelords. Who is to say that The Corsair wasn't just somewhat unique, and that was something that particular Timelord has either leant to do, or simply found themselves genetically capable of by some cosmic twist of fate. I mean there are people born with three nipples, but that doesn't mean that is a common trait and identifying factor amongst humanity as a species.
One of the issues I always have with fandom is that they will take a single solitary throw-away example of something and then arbitrarily apply that to everything across the board, as if that one example suddenly counter-acts all that was established previously.
So again here we have an example that just because of one brief story told by The Doctor, which if taken as true was still made in reference to only one specific Timelord that he knew, along with one throw away panicked 'jokey' line during his own regeneration, is suddenly blown out of all proportion and retroactively applied to all of Timelord society by certain elements of fandom, despite everything that we have seen and heard in all the decades past.
And while everyone is entitled to their own view, personally I just don't buy into that kind of thing being arbitrarily applied so widely and so conclusively based on such slim evidence. And I certainly don't see such things as form points in lore going forward. But to each their own.
...wasn't making a statement of fact.
I was watching "Venice" earlier whilst typing something up for work (and having AICN minimised to the bottom of the screen- PRIORITIES ;)), you know, it was on in the background type stuff, and when McCrory starts to have dialogue with Smith question for question I began to prick up my ears, especially during that speech.
And I thought "Hang on a minute!!!!!" Silence befalling and whatnot- has the question been asked already, and is threatening to force its way through the cracks and eat up time and space????
It seemed very plausible regarding what we've seen and heard.
I expect to see them recur at least once more this series, but I hope after that they are used sparingly i.e. once a series at most. Unless, of course, they can start making a cool sound, preferably one designed by Dick Mills, even if this does rather defeat their purpose.
Also, Malcavar, they're cheaper at Target, and come in a variety of flavours. I especially recommend the gooseberry one, because it goes in the easiest.
My own instinct is that whilst there might be a bit of leakage between realities, I don't expect the big reveal to be a whole other cosmos, per se, primarily because we've already seen resolution of at least some of threads that would be tied up by this reveal in earlier episodes. Plus I think that anything that complex and, unless it's done very carefully, convoluted would be too taxing and/or inconsequential for the younger demographic. This is why I don't expect the question to be about Amy remembering the daleks, either, because that was (sort of) resolved in PO/tBB.
However, if the topography of the Whoniverse does turn out to be non-Euclidian and have a cosmological constant which can be effected by the wilful machinations of the Doctor, I fully expect said Universe to turn out to be jammy dodger shaped, and to be re-rebootable by the same.
That is all.
Now with Amy's first Question in the Eleventh Hour we have the link from the question to the library, we need a way to get at The Silence.
Recall that the trace consciousness left in the communicators in Silence In The Library is referred to as a Data Ghost. The Moff has called the current season's arc a ~Ghost Train~.
Recall also that MOV says the Library Sonic has not been forgotten, and will be coming back soon.
Then recall Charlotte's words to River at the end of Forest Of The Dead, ~I was worried you might be lonely so I brought you some friends.~
Recall that Charlotte's teleport was so powerful it was able to teleport Donna directly into the Library computer out of the TARDIS. Charlotte was worried River might be lonely. So she brought her some friends ... and a mother, a father, and a husband.
The Silence, I think, will be some kind of group of people saved within the Library who don't wish to remain dead. They are silent to the rest of the universe - they can't be heard outside the Library computer. Silence will fall when they escape.
Don't know if you've seen this but I will copy a link to another site.
Whether it is/has been done before one would presume from this that it could be possible, and as it is a show, at the end of the day it is really what the writers deem possible within the concept of the programme and the mythos that has been created. . I daresay that if they so desired, they would have a chimp piloting the Tardis (and a hard time explaining it no doubts!!!!)
If there is a complete change to the cellular structure of the body to adopt a physical change, then there is a probability that said change could result in a female form.
1st time posting here, but i suppose i will voice my opinion.....I loved finally seeing the doctor doing a little more than just running away and escaping at the end, matt smith really showed some chops with the explanations of what was going on, keeping it scientific, until the end of the ep....all i could think of was "Dr. Doogah" from the venture brothers explaning to the monarch that the universe runs on the secrets of love and caring, I think what RTD brought to the series was giving us a more science themed ending than a Mc-ending like "all he needed was the love of his father"...like if he had used some sort of tom baker thrown together device to reverse the polarity of the child's brainwaves to send everyone back to how it was and do some research into what the interest in the child to have those people raise him....and personally i think the silence have a vested interest in him, Ex. The father couldn't remember why he thought it was his real son while his wife can't give birth.......maybe I'm just whisteling dixie though
When he vanished in Let's Kill Hitler and returned in his wedding suit, maybe he went to Amy & Rory's wedding night and interfered with their consummation of the marriage. Maybe he got them to 'have it off' outside of the Tardis, somehow stopping River from having Timelord powers?
And/or swapped himself so the poisoned Doctor is the one killed at the lake, and the one who reappears is the younger one who was at the wedding. But I can't figure out how that would help/not help.
It's hurting my head thinking about Doctor Who all the time... I'm looking forward to this all being resolved so I can relax and start sleeping properly.
Nor did I rule out the possibility that such things may well become established story points in the future. But until it has been properly established in a story and beyond just a throw away bit of dialogue then it's not part of widespread lore, and not really definitive proof of anything as far as I'm concerned.
Of course anything is possible. If someone makes a story where a timelord regenerates into a potted plant then so be it, but until that time I personally don't put a lot of stock in jokey sliver of dialogue that may reference such a fact, or an isolated story told by The Doctor about a single character being then drawn out by fans and applied to far wider ramifications.
I mean put it this way. How many times does a single line said by someone in real life change your entire world view and make you re-evaluate everything you know and have experienced in the past? Not very often (if ever) I'd imagine. So why should what was intended as a mere throw away line of dialogue cause you to change everything you already know from direct experience about the established lore of a long-running tv show?
That's what I just don't get whenever fandom latches on to what was obviously nothing more than a disposable, albeit fun, line of dialogue or whatever, and then uses that as a 'clear example' of 'what must surely be'.
I mean things get retconned all the time on long running shows, it's not about that. Nor is it about having an issue with such change happening, if it were ever to do so. It's about fandom's need to take something that is basically insignificant in the greater scheme of things, and which was originally clearly written for no other reason than because it was a funny line, or a fun story, or because a character just needed to have something to talk about or to say, and to then heap unnecessary and unintended importance upon said dialogue, like there is some greater truth to be discovered there beneath every line ever said. That's a very stagnant 'black and white' view of things, and I just don't subscribe to that viewpoint.
So yeah, that's my basic problem with fandom's tendency towards drawing everything like this into absolutes. Taking something small like the above Corsair story, or even more flimsy, like The Doctor's jokey post regeneration line, and using such things as if they were absolute earth shattering proof across a much wider scale, when in reality all it truly represents, if anything, is one particular example of something that may or may not be true, and even if true, may well only be applicable to that one particular character (who we haven't even met) that is being referenced. I mean it could be made true at a later point, but right now based on all available evidence in canon I'd say it is by no means definitive proof of anything. At least based on all that we currently know.
So when fandom then starts using such examples and applying them far and away beyond their original intent or significance, and retroactively force-fitting them as if they were some great significant part of the lore of the show, I just don't buy it, and personally think that is a ridiculously long bow to draw. Simple as that.
Creating absolutes around fragments of dialogue that were never intended to be representive of such things I just think is a bit of fool's errand really, and as such amounts to no real proof at all, but again I guess that is just something where me and certain parts of fandom clearly differ.
He can't interfere in established events.
If he somehow went back to the wedding of Amy and Rory, then prevented River from being conceived in the TARDIS, the events of A Good Man Goes To War would not have happened.
And River couldn't use her regenerations to save the Doctor either.
The whole timeline would make no sense anymore.
So no, we're pretty sure he didn't go all the way back to Rory and Amy's wedding.
I was, of course, referring to Amy's hair, which made her peg doll transformation stand out from the rest. Slightly confused by some of the negative reactions on here about the last episode. I absolutely loved it! Didn't it do what Who is supposed to do? At least SJW's daughter understood that, and for me, that's good enough. After all, they're writing the show just for her.
Anyway, in a nutshell I'm not saying that such things can't be true, I'm saying that we don't know whether they are absolutely true or not, let alone their wider context even if true, therefore they shouldn't be taken as absolute facts or proof of anything until such a time as something a little more definitive makes them so (or proves otherwise).
Anyway I'll shut up now.
This is Doctor Who, anything is possible. Will it actually ever happen? Who knows? If you're a true fan of the show, you should be prepared for anything and everything by now. I think that's all we can really say regarding this matter. Although The Moff seems to like the idea though, don't you think (see: 'The Curse of Fatal Death')?
Yeah... but all it takes is a quick babble-babble-babble speech nobody quite understands and the sonic screwdriver reversing something and rebooting something and time stream this and that and a flash of light and everyone wakes up and everything's fixed and the whole 'can't go back on his time stream' stuff was all a dream in another reality. This is Doctor Who, after all. It's for kids, innit, and they don't understand what's going on anyway. :-P
As I've stated before, have those tissues ready, you'll be a sobbing mess before the episode is over. Fans of Amy will love it. You're going to see not only Amy in a different light, but also Amy and Rory as a couple, and I think that's very important both for past episodes, and episodes yet to come...
I think he'll be right up there for the role of show runner when The Moff steps aside. He has many of the qualities needed to perform the task. Not only an accomplished actor, but also a fine writer and producer with enough experience to handle the day-to-day rigours of such a big show. And finally, let's not forget that he's also a big, big fan of the show. What else could you ask for?
Following the thread of The Doctor going to the wedding, going to ~move the box~, and ending up at the nazi restaurant... I went back to River's exploration of Amy's room.
Not a TARDIS...
But hey -
The Pandorica was hidden under Stonehenge since Stonehenge was there.
And, if so... how does Amy's book about Pandora's Box fit into something that was built (supposedly) thousands of years in the past?
We kind of forgot about that, what with the universe blowing up and all...
The Doctor regenerating into Romulus and Remus Sylveste from The Twin Dilemma. I bet that would bump it up and give it the Top 10 episode status it deserves. Maybe that's just me though. I'm weird like that sometimes.
I think the thing with Gatiss (and don't get me wrong, i really liked night terrors) is that he's yet to write an outstanding episode of the show, whereas the current show runner has pretty (IMHO) much hit sixes every time out- Maybe he's just not been given the opportunities that "the moff" was given yet... Also, retrofitting spitfires in 5 mins really bugs me- and i hope and prey we see sometime soon, the doctor at Biggin Hill filling in "plot holes"
What more could I ask for? that the current bloke sticks at it for a good 4 or 5 years more.
btw- was that hammer house of mystery and suspense episode"child's play" an influence on Night terrors?
And how are you getting on with firefly sir?
Granted I don't really know enough about British TV producers/writers to think of any other potential candidates.
And I agree he could make for an interesting 'the master' post John Simm, primarily based on his first scene in Sherlock where we are meant to think he is Moriarty. If he played the master the way he played redherring Moriarty, then I'd be all for it.
Especially if he got to do his great 'every-who-villian' delivery of: 'soooo... we meet again... DOC-TORRRR' like he did on the Earthshock dvd. That had me in stitches.
I think people were confused, because (at least admittedly I did) assumed the **** were in place of something dirty/vulgar.
I personally liked the episode though, heaps of great atmosphere, and the location they picked for the exterior of the apartment complex was great and surreal in it's own urban/'wow this place actually exists!?' sort of way.
I think we can all assume that it'll be revealed before the current series is over. New 'questions' will be asked, and older ones will be answered. There's teasing, and then there's TEASING. It's all about knowing when to give the dog it's chewtoy back.
I'm looking forward to it, especially as I really don't know what to expect.
The firefly comparisons have me intrigued also.
Is it an ongoing story, or standalone episodes? If it is ongoing were they able to resolve it or was it one of those shows were the plug was pulled before they did?
She doesn't read the Docbacks, but I relay certain thoughts and comments back to her now and again. Between her job, being a mother, a wife and a cat owner (all of which she takes *very* seriously) she doesn't have the time to read through fan-sites. I merely give her the edited versions on the days when I get to catch up myself.
Well, the first three episodes come together as one prolonged story. Then the series does have episodic stories, but there is a bigger mega-narrative involved in the show. Things happen. Things change. Sometimes big changes.
As for the ending, well, it serves as an ending. Anything more than that says too much.
With all due respect, MOV, the man for the job is the man at the helm - when somebody's managed to awake the ten-year old TOS Trekkie enthusiasm in old, jaded, cynical me, that's saying something huge, right there.
He is (in my opinion) not the writer that Moff is, without Moff's grasp on the characters. He may be an actor, but his job would not be to act. We're all big, big fans of the show.
He absolutely does have the experience. But, again in my opinion, I don't see him having what Bush Sr. called "The Vision Thing." Of his contributions to the series, I admired "The Unquiet Dead." The rest are "Idiot's Lantern," "Victory of the Daleks," and "Night Terrors" - none of which represented the best work of the series.
Again, in my opinion.
Who will be chosen is who will be chosen - but that choice will set the tone for the DW that comes after. If "Idiots Lantern," "Victory of the Daleks" and "Night Terrors" represents the future in the same way that "The Girl in the Fireplace" and "Blink" represented the future, I am insecure about the possibility.
Not sure if some of you read my earlier comments, but I was referring to 'Life's Too Short' when I mentioned 'the little people' earlier. Other than that, there's not much more I can tell you. Just tune in when it airs!
The reasons are exactly as you thought, it was written for the kids.
Now, I don't mind or care that the show isn't written for me. If it was written with an audience of people like me in mind, the audience would be one person, every week. A very happy person, but still just one person.
I know I'm going to like every episode. But that doesn't bother me. I'll still support the show every way I can and tune in every week. God knows, people can be mindlessly critical on Twitter and what not, and who needs that crap?
Still, what I won't do is blow smoke up anyones behind and say that I thought every episode was awesome. But at least when I do say it was awesome, anyone can tell I'm being honest as I am notoriously difficult to please.
Great for the kids. They can play chasing games in the school yards of Britain today, pretending to turn their friends into Zombie-like dolls when caught.
I will just wait patiently for next weeks, which I remain hopeful I will love immensely.
Those who are 'mindlessly critical of the show' were never fans in the first place. Someone like yourself who can give your opinions in a sensible fashion *are* seen as fans of the show. I think I can call myself a pretty big fan of the show, but does that mean I like *every* single episode of the show since 1963? Of course not, that's ridiculous. We all have our favourites to like and dislike, and the makers of the show understand that. What sticks in the craw is when people just say 'that was utter crap' or 'my 5 year old son could have written better' or even worse 'Writer X is a hack and a fucking idiot'. If people are going to say such things, then back it up with some facts or opinions. Something that might make sense on some level. Is that too much to ask? I think not.
It most certainly wasn't meant to be. Yes, I was attacking the 'mindlessly critical', but you do *not* fall into that category as far as I can see. And in addition, I would never expect any of you to 'blow smoke' up anyone's backside, especially on these Docbacks. Your honesty is part of what I enjoy about coming here. You'd be surprised how often people will lie directly to your face and say the exact opposite behind your back. I'm sure we all encounter that on some level in our chosen careers. It's something I bloody hate in mine. Merrick's Docbacks are extremely refreshing indeed! Keep it up.
It is one thing to criticize an episode, explaining why one doesn't like it. It is another to go overboard.
I personally think Mark has a good conception of Doctor Who, but, outside of "Unquiet Dead," his output has not been up to par as what I expect from him. I think when I am disappointed with his stories, it comes from knowing he can do better.
I would say this week was my second favorite of his scripts.... I liked the creepy nature of it. But it still is not to the level I wish I would see from him. I hope some overboard criticism comes from that desire, but they don't say it rightly.
thank you for replying!
I have always been super fascinated by Time Travel, and alternate dimensions, etc. Time Bandit is one of the first movies I remember watching as a little kid...
Every time I buy the DVD it gets stolen....
I dunno it's just one of my favorite movies and I probably go into overgeek hyperdrive when Time Bandits comes up......
I can't comment on any Time Bandit influences specifically, but I would imagine it'll be addressed on the commentary by Mark when the dvds are released. I know you'll have to wait a while, but that's all I can give you!
who thought that! Me and the wife layed on the couch with the lights off during Night Terrors, you know...to enhance the viewing experience, and she commented to me "This episode reminded her of that movie I showed our daughter where the kid and the little people fight evil." I laughed, and said "Time Bandits"! Now, I have the urge to see Terry Gilliam direct an episode of Doctor Who!!!
Well, with the exception of Trolls (we do have some), there's one thing you can take from an inelegant criticism;
1) I like the show enough to be passionate about it, and I disliked this episode enough to feel vitrolic.
It's not helpful, sure - in a way, you can take it as a compliment that they like the base show enough to get venomous when they dislike it. Trust me - I'm from Philadelphia. Our sports criticism is legendary here in the states.
There are people who experience entertainment on a visceral level - something that artists (painters, songwriters, and Especially writers) have to deal with as a double-edged sword. ~That was crap~ fans can be fans... just not the sort of analytical, considered fans that can - or will - provide any insights into their feelings. They are unhelpful fans.
When you put enough blood, sweat and tears into a project, it becomes so proprietary that it is easy to take umbrage at passionate, unhelpful criticism. As a writer, especially so - the written word, the careful nuance being your breath and heartbeat.
Don't let that grind at you, MOV - a handicap of language or insight or intellectual consideration is part of vox populi.
Why do dogs bark? Because they can't speak.
Because opinions - positive, negative, or somewhere in between - are only ever going to be opinions, regardless of what colour you paint them in.
I do think that it usually best to endeavour to put into context exactly why one did or didn't like something, rather than simply saying 'that rocked' or 'that sucked'. Though at the same time, not everything is worthy of the time or effort it takes to do so, and not everyone is looking for a discussion when stating their opinion I suppose, so to each their own.
The first two seasons are fantastic, and the ending is truly memorable, but it should be noted that the show really does change rather radically in the third season, which for a lot of people takes a bit of getting used to. Definitely worth sticking with though.
What you say is perfectly true. I choose to come here and if I don't like what I see, I can stop visiting. Any of us can do that. I've read a few things I didn't care for here, but I'm still sticking around. However, I have other means of contact with fellow fans where it's my turf and I refuse to tolerate non-constructive criticism that comes across as pure abuse. I suppose it's a bit like someone swearing at me in the street, I may not like it, but it's freedom of speech. However, if I invite you into my home and you do the same, you'll be out on your arse before you've had a chance to blink. It's all about what you say, how you say it, and where it's said. In here, we play by Merrick's rules and I think we all feel very happy about the code of conduct he has bestowed upon us. Thanks to him, we have a happy little community in here, which I know isn't the case elsewhere on AICN sometimes. And with that, I'll thank Merrick again for his stirling work every week and enthusiasm for the show.
please don't ever stop posting here.... you are one of my top 5 favorite posters here. You are someone who's posts actually further the enjoyment of the show, your insight and knowledge expand my appreciation......
I want to thank AICN and Merrick for posting these dockbacks, and everybody that is a part of the dockback communities... you guys are all awesome
He is the only person I am going for to have sign my Time Bandits Lobby Card. I already have Gilliam's signature, so this will be the icing on the cake. Warner seems to do only scifi cons, which I can understand, and he rarely does them in the states. I might have him sign my Waxwork dvd, but I am still on the fence for that. The info on the con is listed here: vulcanevents.com
Yeah, he's a fan of the show, but I just don't think he has the 'voice' of the show enough to be dictating and steering its direction into the future.
I mean to me I don't hate any of his four Who stories thus far, but I didn't remotely love any of them either, and as I've said before, while the ideas may have been solid, I personally found the actual writing and execution of each very routine and predictable, and the episodes as a result felt to me rather lacking overall. Not good, not bad, just truly middle of the road. And I don't want a middle of the road era of Doctor Who.
And while it is entirely possible that Gatiss would make a better show runner than he does a regular writer on Who, him being a long term fan of the show isn't, to me, a selling point of him getting the job either. I mean if it were, then Nicholas Briggs would also be a viable candidate, or, *shudder*, Ian Levine for that matter...
Personally I'd rather have someone who had already established themselves as a great writer and/or showrunner, and who saw a wide range of storytelling potential in the show well into the future, rather than somebody who was still looking back towards, and in love with, the past. The past is important, don't get me wrong, but the future is where the show should always primarily be looking towards.
As such I'd argue that the next showrunner doesn't have to be a hardcore fan, they just have to have some knowledge and respect for the material, be able to find the 'voice' of the show and character(s), and have great ideas for storytelling well into the future. I mean it's no huge surprise that many of those who gave us the best classic era stories weren't themselves particular fans of science fiction. True talent trumps fandom every time.
And so when Moffat leaves (which I hope is not for a damn long time yet), I sincerely hope they look for the best person for the job, not the biggest 'known fan' that they can get.
It's about the inability or laziness of some people to put into rational thought whatever it is that bugs 'em.
Their loss - their handicap.
At the moment, I'm working with Special Needs people, and it took me a while to just get used to the idea that the way I dealt with them had to be fundamentally different from the way I deal with other people. Not to take insults as insults, or get peeved off when they blythly steal my lunch and decide it's theirs. They are ~just that way.~
I just don't want you taking damage from people who are incapable or unwilling to put in the brain-time to be semi-sentient. There are a lot of 'em out there, and it's a burr that will never be out from under a creative's saddle.
Discount them, but don't let the venom get under your skin. ~grin~
For anyone who cares to dip their toe into the waters of Blakes 7 without having to buy the dvd's - I just found the first episode on twitvid (seems like they are all there but who knows how long they will last).
Mainly because I have very, very thick skin when it comes to harsh criticism. Sure, I'm human and it's hard to take sometimes, but as I get older, I'm learning to turn a blind eye and do as I please. I can give as good as I get when I need to, but I prefer not to do so via the internet. It's much more fun hashing things out in person!
Big Finish has them on their website available in either CD or download format. The CD price is considerably cheaper than what I paid to get it. For the downloads they're only charging $5 each, and not a whole lot more for the CD.
The first one with David Warner was Sympathy for the Devil. In addition to having Nick Courtney as the Brig, both David Tenant and Mark Gatiss contribute to the audio
The second one, Masters of War, also has Terry Molloy as Davros on it as well as Warner and Courtney.
or, more appropriately it has already will have been asked (probably in the future sometime), but with the repercussions spilling out into the past as well as the future. Do we get to see that this season, or next season? Gut reaction is that we would have the Question itself be part of next season while we wrap up a lot of the Doctor's Death and Who is River Song threads that we were told we are going to see taken care of this season.
Of course you're not; by and large, we have a nice, verbose group here, which makes the place so engaging. We have a couple of pop-up cranks every episode, but generally they don't engage in dialogue so they become (to me) just pebbles the river rushes over.
One of the nice things about the docbacks is that it IS all about the written word - you can kabitz if you want, but if you want to stick and be part of the conversation, you have to converse.
~This stuff sux~ isn't a conversation - it's just an invitation to argument, and a waste of energy to notice. It puts the onus of a blind defense on anyone who answers. It's a lazy, sad attempt at inclusion.
But, at the same time, I do believe that's all Some people are capable of. Whether they just want attention, or don't take the time to examine their feelings, or are incapable of figuring out what they didn't like beyond a feeling of disappointment, they still want a seat at the table.
And it's a condition that's pretty unavoidable. Nobody wants to be left at the children's table - even when they can't really keep up with the adults.
With that, my elitism is showing, so I'll just button up now. ~Grin~
..my daughter has now watched the episode 5 times (I kid you not!!!) so the episode certainly hit the demograph!!!
Myself, I cannot say I have enjoyed every single thing, and it mostly comes from over-expectations of a forthcoming episode that sometimes doesn't deliver what i thought it would.
That's MY own personal choice, and I will certainly back it up with an explanation. For instance (draws an IMMENSE deep breath here before heading back into murky waters...)- The Doctors Wife is one of those episodes. Surrane Jones was sublime as was Smith. The dynamic was so intense it almost reduced you to tears of joy, and that, many would say was the point of the show- the relationship between the Doc and his Tardis. So good was it that it eclipsed everything else on offer. "House" could have been so much more (the "Fear me" line hinted at all kinds of malelovence), instead he gets Amy & Rory to run around some corridors, his cohorts were easily despatched, and ultimately he was beaten without much of a fight. This was from the slayer of thousands of timelords?????
Anyways, I have already been vocal with this point in the past, and was using it as an example of how I can be critical of certain aspects.
Night terrors did exactly what it set out to do. That there were those who didn't like it is to be expected as I am sure a person of your intelligence realises all too well!!!
Know this- my daughter LOVED it, her eyes glassed over as the dolls advanced, she shrank so deep into me that I thought she was a growth of some description, she jumped as the eye in the drawer was revealed, cringed as Purcell was changed into a doll, laughed like a drain at Rory wirth the mop AND WENT BACK FOR A FURTHER 4 HELPINGS!!!
As stated in a previous post, Mr Moffat and Mr Gatiss- JOB DONE!!!!
And to yourself and all those involved with the show in some way- I thank you deeply for providing me with memories and moments like that which make a proud father smile a little more!!!
Tip of the hat, sir!!!
Even if it is not "Doctor Who?" I still think River's message somehow contains the question in it.
And I am getting to think that River has two daughters, and what happens in "The Girl Who Waited" creates one who starts a whole war against the Doctor....
But of course, I could be wrong.
A children's TV episode!
After all I learned from some Docbackers, their children DO catch all the stuff going on with the Big Story Arc or the very adultish themes going on on other episodes that we, as grown-ups, love, discuss, aksing questions about, extrapolate, theorize... well I hope you know what I'm getting at...
So with that in mind... I absoluteley LOVED Night Terrors. And from my point_of_view it was a stand-out standalone episode just for children AND for us adults. Though we are not given the big "AND NOW FOR THE ROAD TO ANSWERS" it was dark AND funny with great dialogue pieces. And I was ABSOLUTELY IMPRESSED with Jamie Oram as George. Having been an actor myself (and part-time Director in Theatre) I absolutely look for portrayals of characters. And Jamie did a GREAT JOB! Congrats!
So Night Terrors was very enjoyable for me.
But, of course, I (as the adult I want to be...) still look forward to "some answers to the questions that surround me now" (Great Fish!). The Parallel Universe Theory is something I also thought about and what would have made sense for me.
Also, though I love Matt Smith now as The Doctor (some of you, who know me from the old days, know now on what road I'm walking on and in which direction...) it would easily give way to have David Tennant back for (at least) a cameo as The Half-Human Doctor... possibly Rose (still MY favourite companion, sorry...).
Ahhh... wandered off with my thoughts... Matt Smith IS The Doctor, he EARNS every second of his screen-time.
I hope you've been having fun reading all the posting going on here.
You have some good points here. RTD might have gone with a more scientific explanation, but Moffat prefers the 'dark fairy tale' aspect where you wouldn't necessarily have to go that way. In this case, though, I'd guess that RTD would have gone with the same thing, as he was a big proponent of emotion driving things. Also, although RTD might sometimes include the scientific explanations, don't forget that 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey' first came out under his tenure. He was trying to avoid technobabble for the sake of technobabble (the downfall of many an episode of multiple sf series).
As to the parents not remembering, I had thought that it was the child himself causing them to forget, as it seems that the child was a powerful psychic (certainly powerful enough to send a message to the Doctor's psychic paper - the only ones who have been able to pull that off before over such distances and times are The Face of Boe and River Song). It is possible that the Silents are involved; at this point it wouldn't surprise me if we find out that they've been lurking behind the scenes in many of the things we've seen. The only problem with bringing the Silents in, though, is that if they were around, humans would be trying to kill them as soon as they saw them - it makes it much harder for them to operate behind the scenes.
What I loved about Masters of War is that different kind of Daleks we find in it, and even, the different kind of Davros in it.
I'm just wondering if we could see Daleks like these in the new universe. Imagine the shock and surprise that would be on screen!
My Gatiss post above was merely meant in jest as a riff and reference to the rather controversial exchange on the sketch that he wrote and starred in way back when, as discussed previously in this very thread.
I hadn't actually seen the sketch myself in years though, so I was going by the dialogue posted earlier in this thread when I wrote that, however on watching the sketch again looks like the dialogue was actually:
But I tell you now, I don't want to do this show unless we get the most charismatic, talented actors to play The Doctor.
For the whole 26 years?
Naah, towards the end just any old fuck with an equity card.
So yeah, again, my post was meant strictly in jest, yet ironically I seem to have found myself in a similar predicament to Gatiss after said sketch aired. That'll teach me for trying to be clever...
When I was putting together the post for 88mphsean, I just came to a realization -
Remember how in the 1970's, it seemed that all the aliens were coming to invade Earth, and you couldn't blame it all on the Master?
Well, what if they're invading because after the Silents had to leave Earth in 1969, they used their posthypnotic suggestion powers on different aliens to invade Earth, just out of spite for how they had been treated?
- Nestene Consciousness, you want to invade Earth. They have lots of lovely plastic there. -
-Axos, there's a lot of lovely energy on Earth that you can use. You should go there and check it out.
-Learned Scientists of Daimos, you wish to conduct your experiments on the primitive species on Earth.
Zygons, there is a lot of water for you to settle in on Earth. Go there and take your Skarasen with you.
-You are the Master and you will obey us. Spend the rest of your life plaguing and annoying the Doctor-
-Omega, you will...oh bugger, where's your head? How can you look at us or look away from us? (sound of Silent being squished).
At least, I don't see correcting things completely back to the original universe. The problem is that while the idea of invading Daleks, Dalek-Cybermen wars, hauling the Earth across the universe for another Dalek confrontation and having a giant Cyberking rampaging through Victorian London might be good stories for right then, the cumulative consequences of these having happened would twist the Doctor Who universe to something well beyond what the hypothetical regular audience would be able to connect with. There would be too great a disconnect between that universe and 'our' universe for someone to easily relate to it.
So, even if things are going to change, I don't think that the season ending stories or the Next Doctor are going to be events that the general population of Earth (or even just England, in the case of The Next Doctor) are going to remember.
I still can't help but feel much of what we see will be the result of River, alone with the TARDIS, making changes to time.
She said when the Doctor next meets her (which is for him as a baby) everything is going to change. And that baby grows up, gets the TARDIS to herself. What if she was talking about what she did with the TARDIS, and she is sorry for messing with time?
You are most welcome.
It is a pleasure beyond words to be a part of the Docback experience - and a privilege and an honor to "know" you all. THANK YOU for being a part of this family.
Pease let me know if my efforts are ever inadequate. I truly, deeply want this to work for all of us - and for this group to not only remain together, but grow. I strongly believe a vast majority of Dockbackers wish this as well.
It's sometimes difficult (if not impossible) to get this "moderation" thing exactly right - there's often a decidedly blurry line between legitimate criticism and bitchy cynicism, for example - and many of us bring different interpretations to these nuances. But I've every certainty that we can work through such disparities *together* should the need ever arise.
Have a lovely week everyone...and wishing you all the best, always.
Thank YOU, our friend, for offering us this platform to express, what we feel the Good Ol' Doc, about each other (sometimes), about THE MOFF, about all the secrets and great things that lie ahead of us, as they've been with us before.
And - your efforts have been nothing near inadequacy.
And also thanks, MOV, for such insightful "spoilers", without being spoilers at all!
Without giving too much away, I'll provide you with a link that shows my face in its whole b/w "beauty"... ;-)
(I'm NOT the cigar..., but close...)
River is moving opposite to the doctor through the time stream, and met him in the angels episodes and remembered going through all of the pandorica stuff with him, which for her would be after the universe was rebooted, and when that 2 parter happened the future doctor came and talked to Amy when her eyes were closed, so those events weren't altered ala back to the future by the Doctor backtracking through recent events as the cracks were closing which means that is always the way it happened.
I agree, Amy and Rory appear to be put to the side so as to make room for the Doctor without them.
However, I wouldn't say their place is unimportant in the story. They serve as other examples of what is going on, and they allow us to see the fullness of the threat, and to help encourage more fright for kids.
I would have liked if they said or did something which helped the Doctor, but on the other hand, it is also nice the Doctor was able to figure it out on his own.
I do wonder.. if there might be more to the story than we realize. It is, after all, a _house_ which got them separated from the Doctor, once again. Maybe there is something to that?
The thing is, though, the universe before Big Bang 2 was all destroyed. This would include all realities, according to the Cybermen who showed up in The Pandorica Opens. So, it shouldn't still be around when Big Bang 2 occurs.
You might still have things that are from outside the cracks, or from parallel Earths, but it shouldn't be a pre-vs.-post-Big Bang 2 universe clash per se.
That said, it's always possible that Big Bang 2 didn't quite reset the universe correctly and some things keep shifting around, more like the universe is remembering the previous universe rather than it still actually being around, and trying to reset some of the variances.
I also have been thinking about River and her connection to the two universes. I think, however, she is born in the new and crosses over to the old, as a reversal to the Doctor, and in doing this, the two of them have created holes in the universes which the Silence are using.
Both timelines, River's and The Doctor's have been on either side of the rope.
Maybe exactly, when they reach the middle of that rope... that's when the whole thing starts...?
So there could be the EXACT moment, when they cross paths in symmetry...
The Girl Who Waited?
If it was good ol' Al Bundy - it would be Doctor Shoe!
Arrrgh... don't drink and write, Riker.... go to bed, already...
Nighty Night, every one!
And Good Day to everyone, who's awake right now and reads all this...
Sherlock: Sheer luck, my Dear Watson!
Off you go now, Riker...
Sweet dreams everyone! Make It So!
Since this was supposed to be earlier in the season, that line feels like it was supposed to be a hint at what was to come later. It seems like they probably took out a Madame Kovarian moment and added the Doctor's death screen to the end instead of the Amy's pregnant/not pregnant monitor(which I did have as my screensaver for a month!)
It felt weird to have no discussion of finding Melody, though. I know River says that it's like she did get a chance to raise her through Mels, I would like to see a little more emotional resonance from the fact she was stolen.
That being said, this was one of the best directed episodes of the series, though. The lighting was fantastic and the dolls were well done (the only dodgy effect was the landlord and the carpeting.) And it was a great light story for the kids.
Little George just wants to be loved. And for all the talk of "monsters are real", the living dolls
are actually all in his head. All it took was a hug from his dad to make it alright.
It was a good palate cleanser and it gave Matt Smith plenty of room to be funny and there was plenty of time for the story, where sometimes I feel that Nu-Who has more story than time to tell it.
I do find myself getting impatient and dying to see what happens in the Silence Will Fall main story arc. But then again, X-Files mythology episodes were always my favorite too.
Speaking as someone who made a post that used the words "Gatiss" and "Sucks" in its title, I can't help but feel that at least a little of MOV's reaction had at least a little to do with me.
Looking at what I said, I was basically marking the episode down on
* the originality of its premise
* the brilliance of its dialogue
* the consistency of its characters
* its significance to continuity
* the integrity of its narrative.
Now I understand the target demographic was children, and I noted that mine were properly scared. But when I think of children and The Doctor I cannot help but think of Rex Harrison in the 1960s Doctor Doolittle.
Properly speaking, Harrison was My Doctor. And always will be. I know he wasn't a Time Lord, but he had all the trappings of one. Spoke all languages, cared for all life, carried companions about with him in a wonderful vehicle, and spent most of his time resolving conflicts between humans and alien species and cultures.
You watch his treatment of Sophie and you'll immediately see Our Doctor at his best.
Now when I compare Gatiss's work with that of Lofting, or Dahl, or Milne, or Lindsay, or Kipling, or ... well, any of the real children's heroes, the simple fact is that he fails.
Night Terrors was not classic Who and it was not classic childrens' fiction. If it had been written and filmed in the 1970s it might have been an acceptable part of a 6 part arc. But it wasn't and it isn't.
So I stand by my judgement. And I haven't seen anything in Gatiss's work that justifies the idea that he would make a capable show runner. I think the show under his charge would lack the originality, brilliance, consistency, significance and integrity, just as this episode did.
Of course I admit my inner child is an unreasonable spoiled brat. Willy Wonka would have dispatched him in the first act :-)
I still love that episode. Sure, there are two or three details that don't make a lot of sense, and those have been discussed in this very thread. But I like that the Daleks had a simple plan, to survive and assure their future for a confrontation down the road. The achieved this goal and quickly ran off to rebuild. No weird plots involving reality shows or yanking planets out of their orbit without a huge cosmic disaster (and the TARDIS towing planets back to their proper orbit). I was happy that they later decided that these Daleks would be an officer class, and the classic Daleks would still be around whenever the time was right for another Dalek story.
I liked how McCoy was in it even with the general script problems and them essentially recording the show without any real rehearsal.
Also, it was amusing to note that there was a fez in the story, and in the deleted scenes you see the Doctor wearing a fez long before The Big Bang.
I suspect Moffat had seen it before and might have subconsciously been influenced by it.
I honestly hadn't remembered the fez and mop until watching the DVD tonight. It did bring a little bit of joy to my heart to see it.
Well, if you think about it, Sylvester McCoy's doctor often wore a hat around, so it's far from the first time for the Doctor to be a hat person.
The only question (other than the First One) that really remains is: What other cool hats can we get Matt Smith to wear while he's the Doctor?
I could see him in Victorian London with a deerstalker (perhaps visiting a certain female Silurian detective?), but what I'd really like to see Matt's Doctor getting excited about is finding a leather WW I aviator's helmet complete with goggles. Given his fondness for Danny boy and mimicking a Spitfire flying around, I'm sure that he'd be overjoyed if he got to wear one of those helmets and fly a Sopwith Camel.
I hate when this happens.
Something that could just be a continuity error gets all tied up in the storyline.
Fish Fingers and Custard.
Where did all that food come from? No parents. No Aunt. Just Amy, all alone, little girl in a house. Cooking food that nobody bought with no money.
No neighbors calling social services. Mels and Rory just hanging out in her abandoned house. And neither seems to have found that especially odd.
I would chalk it up to error, except for the revelatory way The Doctor shouted it.
I look forward to the new episodes every week without fail! This one, however, left me feeling flat. It had a very interesting and creepy concept, and the ending was a bit touching, yet it lacked a certain spark to keep me focused.
Mind you, this does not mean I did not enjoy it, but it will not be at the top of my list of great episodes. Mark's other eps I liked more, well, maybe not "Lantern" , that "hungry" scream did get annoying. In the show's nearly 50 year history, not every ep managed to grab me, so do not feel I am bashing this. Doctor Who, even some of the eps that do not fully keep my attention, is still the best sci-fi show on tv at present.
The locations gave it a creepy feel, but I think I have been to de-sensitised to the more horror aspects of the genre ( I blame you Krueger and Vorhees).
Anyway, looking forward to next week, and have tissues on standby mode as MOV suggested. :)
...even the local newspaper supliment had an interview wih Matt Smith in it!!!
Some great stuff, with him confirming (supposedly) that it was a blessing to play the Doctor and that he will be hanging around for the 50th (although I have not seen that confirmed anywhere else, just that he had signed on for 2012) and that the anniversary would be something very special indeed (throwing a coronation street reference in for good measure).
Look forward to it more and more!!!!
I'm a huge Doctor who fan (own all DVD's ever released..well nearly) but this was not a good episode....Seems to me that Gatiss just stole a typical Moffatt idea, lets make everyday objects in childrens lives scary...looks so lazy when not done well. Reminded me of the poor Tennant stories when he had to start shouting and being well over the top to divert from RTD lack of talent or understanding of the concept...Also thought let's kill Hitler was all over the place....loved day of the moon, impossible astro, doctors wife...always a sucker for a clever ending with no reset button.....After reading these talkbacks for years this is the first time i felt compelled to write....It is a great show (the best) but lets be honest when it isn't.........that is all.....except..BRING BACK BLAKES 7...
1. A reference to the Doctor's encounters with Death's Head, yes?
2. An episode inspired by Portal.
3. An episode in which the Doctor meets an alternate (female?) version of himself from a "rogue dimension".
4. An advanced AI as one the Doctor's new enemy. This logic-focused AI destroyed its creators and sees itself as the "guardian" of the universe. The Doctor engages this AI in a battle of wits. I'm thinking of something akin to Guilty Spark or GLaDOS.
5.Some decent incidental music. Murray Gold needs to look up "subtle" in the dictionary.
Yes -- I was thinking Amy has two daughters, one being River, but in the other universe, other reality, she has a daughter later in life, and it is one taught to hate the Doctor... (bringing out the is she pregnant/is she not pregnant) point back to the plotline...
had officially asked The Moff about taking over, or as he put it, addressing the elephant in the room. So in other words, he had already known for some time, even if he hadn't addressed it specifically, that there was a need to start sounding out who would be interested in taking up the reigns.
To put that in some perspective, the third season had just been broadcast. Freema had left the TARDIS. The Master had just died, refusing to regenerate. Remember that, way back when?
We are not quite at that point with Steven Moffat. His second season has not finished broadcasting yet. (Though we're only a few weeks out.) So maybe it is too early to be talking about future show-runners, and who would make a good choice and who wouldn't and so on... But a year is practically no time at all in show business. So it wouldn't be a surprise to me, if the Moff was already devoting some mental energy to the problem of a successor already.
My guess : What does this button do?
But I wonder if it refers to something we've seen already in the Big Bang / Pandorica two parter, after all that's the last time we saw the universe come to end and silence fell.
What was the last question said before all of that happened? Was it : Who are you? What could you possibly be?
I'll have to go back and check. Maybe River asked the TARDIS a question after that. I know she definitely speaks to it as if she knows it's alive.
I believe he confirmed it on Alan Carr's Chatty Man, episode 6x05. He was on the show for the last 20 minutes or so, and Alan did bring up the 50th anniversary and the potential return of other doctors.
Matt basically said he thinks it would be great, that several of the previous doctors are around, but it would be up to The Moff and those actors if anything was going to come of that.
He didn't mention Sly or Colin, though he did mention Peter, when he was going through the doctors that would still be around.
Find the entire interview here on Youtube :
Guessing you missed my reasoning given length of my posts, here's the nutshell.
The answer to Amy's first question in the Eleventh Hour was that the Doctor had fallen into The Library.
In Silence In The Library CAL proved her ability to teleport people into the Library as needed to provide friends for the data ghosts therein.
One of whom is River. And her best friends are Amy, Rory and the Doctor.
As for the Silence, I think it's what happens when all the data ghosts escape.
...in that it was a good idea. I didn't watch it with children, but I would have liked a surprise for the adults. As soon as the characters didn't open any shutters in the mysterious new place they found themselves in, it was obvious to me what was going on.
Hush also reminds me that that better script editing would have had clearer B and C stories, and a better thematic reason for the plot.
Hush was about how scary the thought of the ability to communicate being taken away is - especially when you need help. This is compared with not being able to communicate because you don't know what to say next.
What was Night Terrors about? It could have been an exploration of how some fears are good, some bad.
Phobias too. It would have been fun to have some innocuous items in the wardrobe - just stuff that the kid had an irrational fear of.
If either of the parents had a tale of not being afraid, or The Doctor being scared of grubs (cf. The Green Death), that would provide a few echoes.
If The Doctor's point is that monsters are real, but that's OK, where does an incorrect definition of a monster take you? Clive Barker's 'Nightbreed' covers this idea.
There's also themes of belief without evidence, how others in our lives can or can't protect us, trust, asking for help. If the little boy is a space cuckoo, how about a couple of the same cuckoos masquerading as different aliens? Not all members of a race have the same personality - what if some cuckoos destroy the young they mimic?
If the concept arrived out of the thought that a closed door in a child's bedroom is the scariest thing in the universe, then the theme could have been about the danger of having an imagination - combined with the need to think of the worst possible outcome of given situations.
This is the symptom of British TV writing: it's as if the script editors and producers are too friendly with the writers. They don't want to be mean to a pal by asking them to take the submitted script, concentrate activity and thoughts into 15 minutes, and add many more ideas on a clearly articulated theme.
At least people in the UK have the ambition to use the US script development system. Although there isn't the money to make it work properly, maybe a few years of having a go will lead to writers and producers learning to make TV that is thematically satisfying (without 99.9% of the audience realising why they like the shows so much).
Just have an episode with a previous Doctor. There's dozens of books about previous Doctors written well after the those Doctors have died. The stories still work cause they take place in the gaps and 900 Gallifrean years take up a lot of time.
Following on that idea, don't try to recreate the five doctors fan wank. Why not have something where it's not previous incarnations interacting with each other, but a story that interacts with previous incarnations. Think about it, is there any reason you can't have a two or three part episode where it starts with Doctor 11 having an adventure, feeds into the next episode where Doctor 7 is having an adventure and concludes with Doctor 4 completing the arc?
Moffat's already touched upon the idea with River Song. If you just viewed her life from beginning to end, it'd end up with something like what I wrote above.
Worth noting the doll from the trailer that's dressed like the Doctor didn't appear in this episode.
Do we have another puppet episode coming up or was the Doctor's doll left on the cutting room floor?
I've got my Christmas Special with C.S. Lewis. Have Matt Smith as Merlin, and the young Lewis is somehow brought into the story... we can then resolve what was started in Battlefield and even allow two Doctors to meet...
They had been stored on the hard drive, not in any virtual world. And they aren't in the library. They got out.
There was never any indication that the Vashta Nerada were teleported anywhere.
The Vashta Nerada gave the humans 24 hours to do their shit and get out of there.
So that leaves 5 data ghosts in the library.
Not 4022 + 5 + a couple of billion.
True, that is a good point.
However, what got me thinking about Amy is that we know, next week, we will have two time lines worth of Amy, and near the end of Night Terrors, it looked like Amy had a baby bump (but that could be because of the original placement of this one was to be earlier in the season).
I'm inclined to agree with V'Shael's analysis on this one; I don't expect we'll see any additional uploads into the library because whilst those ealier eps have relevance with regards to the River arc, I can't imagine it will be used again so prominently, because that's not really been Doctor Who's style; its a show which rewards you for your intimacy whilst not necessarily relying on it (although I could be, and probably am, totally wrong on this.)
Oh, and I now think the plain-sight question is 'What are you doing down there?' or a variation thereon, because of how many times the question has been used on the show over the years.
Also, my earlier posts, in addition to damning the ep with faint praise, do in retrospect seem to intimate that kids might not be able to keep up with some of the arc plotting if it goes too bonkers, and I should probably qualify that, because otherwise I come across like an elitist and pompous so-and-so (which, er, I am). Now, my inner child loves me some Who, and gets it all without too much difficulty, and I'd love if everyone else loved it, too. And if it's to play to the biggest possible audience, it probably can't afford to be an impossible twisty-wisty thing, and, er, what I'm suggesting seems to be exactly the kind of watering down that would weaken the show horrendously and which I refuse to countenance with my own fiction, so it looks like I'm a hypocrite, too. Woo-hoo! That means I get to eat my own calfs!
Oh, a Trials and Tribble-ations style ep would be terrific, and we already know its within scope given the Laurel and Hardy, Sons of the Desert, two rapscallions being disingenous to their wives bit from tIA.
And there was the idea mentioned by MOV earlier, of having the Doctor regenerate into twins (specifically the Sylvestes), but the twin thing has already been done, because we all remember when the Doc was played by conjoined twins Peter Davison and David Peterson before they were both fired from the show following that incident with the cricket ball and the comedy vegetable (thanks to Babelcolour for that one.)
And, er, other stuff.
Boy am I confused at how this second half of the season is going. It helps to know this episode was filmed for placement before all the Flesh and Melody business, but I don't think it would have killed them to loop in a line or two about the baby. The end of the episode, with everyone giddy at the endless possibilities of where to go next, seemed especially inappropriate.
Really hope the next episode picks up the baby-rescue story again—it doesn't look like they actually go looking for Melody, but could they at least talk about it? Seem upset about it?
My pet theory about the Question: it's not a question, it's a Question—an individual or race that, like the Silence, hides in plain sight through a perception filter or something similar. It/they have existed since the beginning of the universe, and when someone finally notices them, it's all over.
they said that sometimes the posthypnotic stuff with the Silents could make people feel a little sick.
That doesn't mean that this statement was correct; River could very well be pregnant. We don't know what sort of hanky panky she will have gotten up to with the Doctor in his future.
This comment could easily be referring to the Silents themselves, who actually do hide in plain sight. So, the question could be related to them.
Another question, which isn't necessarily THE Question, but is something that should still be addressed, is: What are all those tunnels that are covering the entire Earth for? It sounded like it would be a lot more than what they'd need just to live in. Maybe it's for moving around the world undetected. I suspect we'll find out more about these tunnels later this season.
She was born Melody Pond, and kidnapped by The Silence.
She was raised by them to be a bit psychopathic, and to kill the Doctor.
At some point, she regenerates and transforms into a child/toddler. (As admitted by Mels in the Let's Kill Hitler episode)
At some point, the baby is raised by Amy in an orphanage, but this has not happened in Amy's timeline yet.
Either the baby/toddler raised by Amy, or the child she had regenerated into, is put into an astronaut suit which may be a life support mechanism for some reason, and Amy shoots at her. She takes part in Amy's abduction.
At some point after that, in New York presumably, she regenerates again, and transforms into Mels. She heads to Leadenworth to find her parents, knowing that eventually The Doctor will show up.
As a child she grows up with her parents, and they 'raise' her throughout her teenage years until she meets the Doctor, goes to Berlin in 39 and regenerates into River Song.
Now, I think Amy and Rory can know all of that, given what they've seen in the episodes. But if they do, and if they manage to put that all together... where do you suggest they go to find their baby? They have to find her at some accessible point in the timestream, which won't cause any temporal paradoxes or interfere with established events. And at the same time, Amy is worried about trying to prevent the Doctors death.
In other words, there's a lot more going on than simply 'Where's my baby?'
I suspect that they're not going to be searching for baby Melody anymore because the Doctor knows that she was raised by Kovarian and the Silents, then regenerated and became Mels, then was ironically raised somewhat by Amy.
We'll probably still see some bits with the kid, like how she got from New York in 1970 to England in the 90s (I'm guessing that she walked or rode something through the tunnels covering the entire world that the Silents had) or what happened between July 1969 and why she was sick and had to regenerate in New York in 1970.
The Doctor had made an offhand comment toward the end of Day of the Moon that he had seen it before, but that one had been abandoned.
It wouldn't surprise me if we find out later this year why the timeship got abandoned (I suspect we'll see it sabotaged and end up on top of the flat in The Lodger).
I understand that they've already met River at several points along her timeline/regenerations, and River was clearly NOT rescued as a baby. So I can see that ultimately they'll need to give up the search.
However! I really need to see them address this. Amy and Rory may understand this intellectually, but emotionally? Their baby has been kidnapped. They may know that eventually, they will meet Melody again, but to have their baby taken away? To have their chance to raise her taken away? Any parent would be massively, massively upset about it.
That's what I want to see. The emotional fallout from realizing they must fail.
The way these episodes aired, it seems like our three heroes had a discussion in between this one and ''Let's Kill Hitler'': ''Right, I guess we've seen just about all of Melody's life now and it doesn't look like we rescued her. We will never hold our newborn baby. We will never get a chance to raise her or really be her parents in any meaningful way. Instead she'll be brainwashed and tortured and raised by our enemies to kill the Doctor, but eventually she'll turn out all right. ... Well I guess that's all right then. Okay, more adventures! Timey wimey, geronimo!''
Well, you have the emotional rollercoaster for Amy and Rory that was Let's Kill Hitler. They're probably still trying to process everything that happened in there. Amy's probably thingking more 'Bloody hell, Mels was my child all along and I named her after herself?' and 'she gave all her regenerations to save the Doctor? Maybe there's hope for the kid yet' more than 'I'll never see little baby Melody again'
I didn't believe that statement for one moment. Seemed far too contrived to be true!!!
Horn- we had better not get a bloody orobouros storyline with the Doc and the universe and whatnot. That would not be cooooooooool........
.........Fez's are cooooooooooooooool......
...there will undoubtedly be things left to our imaginations as not every plot strand can be explored.
I fear that this may be one of them, however, next weeks episode sounds as if it deals with the emotions of Rory & Amy's relationship so we may get something of that there; you never know!!
Oh, and time can be changed!!!! Why give up looking for Melody when you can find her and change the course of history? It's already fucked up time and space so what's a little more??? ;))
not when we have other things to worry about like the Silents/Silence, the only water in the forest being the River (and I won't be surprised to see a trip to the Gamma Forests and see a younger Lorna Bucket), and what the perfect hat is for an approximately 1000 year Time Lord.
or has anyone else felt like starting or expanding their hat collection? While I don't feel I could pull off a stetson or a fez anywhere near as well as Matt Smith... I'd love to know exactly what kind of stetson Matt was wearing, and where I might get one for myself?
I believe that the elder Canton will return. Reason is that I think they will do a flashback to the Doctor telling the old Canton about bringing a can of gas, and about the plan of him "dying". Old Canton wasn't shocked when the Doctor died, and already knew that Amy, Rory, and River would see him again in 1969.
with the re- mention of Stetsons it's got of thinking of Eliot's wasteland again, because that had a Stetson in it, and a ganger, and a Roman warrior. That means the doctors next hat will be, um, athe river Thames, or a gammon
with the re- mention of Stetsons it's got of thinking of Eliot's wasteland again, because that had a Stetson in it, and a ganger, and a Roman warrior. That means the doctors next hat will be, um, athe river Thames, or a gammon
did anyone notice in the opening scene that if you hold Amy & Rory's car number plate up to a mirror, it creates an anagram of.....
And we all know where you're most likely to find mildew don't we.......... on the surface of a POND.
Obviously I don't really think this means anything.
And as for Mark Sheppard returning - yes, I'd like that. On the other hand, I'd like it if BBC and Starz did a spinoff series about Canton Everett Delaware III. I suspect they might think it too close to Torchwood to do it.
Of course, you could tweak things slightly and not always have to have sf monsters. Just having Canton interacting with Nixon could be interesting.
if it's an anagram of MILDEW, then it would also be an anagram of ME WILD. That might have been better for what Mels was driving, though.
I don't see its being an anagram of WE MILD being important, though.
And, since it isn't Hartnell, I don't think we have to worry about WLM DIE.
Or, trying to stretch it reaaaaaaaallly hard, it's a clue for River's Wedding - ML I WED (M could be Melody, but maybe there's a previous wedding for the L, or they couldn't get the license plate to stretch to having the extra E).
Everyone seems to have forgotten the photos of Amy raising a child in the 60's
Perhaps, if there is a multiple universe scenario going on it's caused by Amy going back to where young melody was, and raising her.. As a child of the tardis, is it possible that river song could have multiple pasts? Or is it just really late for me to be on the internet?
Just got back from the vet, and I have 3 kinds of expensive medications to give my dog, he's got some kind of staph infection on one of his paws, and some kind of weird skin allergy.... omg Vets are expensive.. this trip cost $303.64
Thank you for your concern...
on the subject of mark sheppard, and a spin off... He should join torchwood! As long as they bring torchwood back to the way things were season 1 and 2..... I liked season 3, and have hated season 4... and I think the stand alone eps have been far better than these mini-series single arc storylines... Miracle Day has not entertained me at all....
I really need to be careful when I joke about stuff on here, don't I? Argh! And regarding Bad Wolf Bay, I don't expect to see a return to that particular location. Anyway, we all know that The Doctor prefers to take his holidays at Lake Silencio now. That's where all the cool Apollo Astronauts picnic these days. Canton Everett Delaware III? We may see him again some day, that's not impossible. Will we be seeing a spin-off? I seriously doubt it. If they spun off every character that we liked, we'd be overwhelmed with shows. And if that happened, how the hell would they fund all of them?! The very thought of it makes me want to pass out. Unless you're happy for the main show to become a cartoon that's animated by a 5 year old at 4 frames per second? Even then, I think that'll still be expensive. Kids aren't cheap to hire these days...
As far as I know, he's had two so far, but I'm sure someone will think of more. His first (I believe) was Perpugilliam 'Peri' Brown, from Pasadena, California (thanks Wikipedia - I had no idea where she was supposed to be from) and his second was Dr Grace Holloway who he met in San Francisco in the TV Movie. Peri was played by an English actress (Nicola Bryant), so his only real American assistant was 'Amazing' Grace, played by Daphne Ashbrook (who originates from San Diego - again, thanks Wiki!) Now I have a nagging feeling that I've forgotten someone really obvious, but it's been a long, long day and it's late now. I'm off to bed, where I'll be lying awake wondering who I forgot about. Then I won't sleep at all. Then I'll be in no fit condition to work tomorrow. Then all hell will break loose. Don't feel guilty though, it was a good question. Night all!
Parenthood probably feels more like a dream than anything to them. Amy didn't really experience the pregnancy, she woke up in a space station in labor, staring at a woman with an eyepatch, afterwards Amy barely got to hold Melody, and then Melody... melts in her hands. After that, they find out that the Doctor's likely romantic interest is actually their baby?
I don't know about you, but at that point, my brain would've probably packed some bags and headed for Cancun or something.
River Song is definitely married (she said so), but just *who* did she marry? Is it as obvious as you think it is? And we also have to remember that she lies. Is she lying? I'll leave you with that. Now it *is* bedtime. Have fun!
Mr Tardis' review of the ep, at the very end he pointed out a line that most of us may not have caught. The Doctor, sitting between Amy and Rory, says " Well its good to be all back together again, in the FLESH" ... throwaway line or not? You decide...
Oh, and I might have been onto something with the Twin comment I made, judging by MOV's reaction lol
Everybody has their favorites, and you have yours, John J. For me, I am in my glory right where we sit.
And where we sit is where a bunch of madmen with boxes fritter and worry about real and imagined threads of clues, paradoxes, possibilities, IMpossibilities being possible... There is passion here.
My opinion on 2005 is nowhere near as high as yours. I wasn't fond of Eccleston, wasn't thrilled by farting aliens, a stretched, gutless sheet and the pimple on satellite 5 as compelling antagonists or interesting stories. 2005 was the "Enterprise" shuttle of DW; it proved the concept, but for me, it never flew.
But everybody has their own tastes.
You can read any smoke signals you'd like from the clues you read - others will probably take the time to refute you.
Yesterday is gone, and to me, I'm well rid of it. I want Nothing of 2005 back.
Honestly, I prefer it now. I loved it under RTD, I love it under Moffat. I just think structurally Moffat is much much stronger, his set ups and pay offs don't feel like cheats which very often RTD's would to me.
Like I said, everybody has their opinions, and they aren't limited to the actors. You asked, and I answered sincerely.
Eccleston was the least of my concerns about 2005 DW. There are a lot of points you brought up in your post I found a little suspect, at least from The Americanos point of view;
Over here, the idea that any DW has genuine ~water-cooler~ moments is beyond consideration. DW is, was, and always will be a ubergeek phenomenon. You would never get a water-cooler convo 'round these parts going about Who unless, perhaps, you worked at a particle collider, planetarium, or were taking a break from a heavy game of Dungeons and Dragons. The fan base is parsecs from being wide enough.
But, if you did manage to work at some ubergeek haven, I don't think you would have found too much admiration for most of the storytelling in 2005.
As I said - farting aliens - who want to blow up the earth to sell radioactive bits, because it's impossible to make radioactive bits anywhere else in the universe by any starfaring race closer to their home out of any old asteroid and cut the shipping costs by ten kabillion percent.
The space pimple, and everybody on a game show, and manipulating the news for some incredibly obtuse reason.
A sheet puppet, with no lungs or larynx that speaks, with eyes that don't have a brain to connect to, wants to blackmail somebody for a facelift.
A Dalek God, and Rose goes all Jean Grey.
I don't want to be too harsh, but I can't even imagine the mentality that would stand around the cooler and exuberantly discuss how wonderful these lead bricks were. To me, it's like the first season of STTNG - with a score of 5-8, most charitably, they're all lucky to have survived for another attempt. Far, far from the world being "Who's Lobster."
More begging the question: Merchandising. You choose to see the wider-scale merchandising of the DW brand as a liability, I see it leveraging a product with a history of saleable tie-ins that has had its interest renewed.
And, frankly, you're being extremely selective of the merchandising you see. A quick check of Amazon shows the lion's share by far is product developed for post-Eccleston audiences. You're being a little ~Mighty Jagrafess of the Holy Hadrojassic Maxarodenfoe~ about your news proclamations.
As for ITV - don't know it, don't care. A quick look at their website suggests that they do not have programming that is in competition with DW's demographic. The suggestion that a game show is going to spell certain death for a sci-fi show is as absurd as saying... well, that a game show is going to kill cop shows, lawyer shows... it's alarmist, unreasoned, and a little disingenuous. ITV being 'bold' - from what I can see of their schedule - is ITV being ITV and putting on games shows where they have game shows on every other night of the week.
Your post is fraught with strawmen that push an agenda, and I don't buy that agenda. Your 'facts', aren't.
When I was young, I always wanted to see the Doctor paired up with a religious companion. The sort who might bring up the question - Can we go to Bethlehem or Calvary and see what happened?
But that's really more of a hard SF type conundrum, which isn't suited for a family show like Doctor Who, never mind the folks it might offend.
But then I got older, and read Ecce Homo by Michael Moorecock, and well, it did involve time travel and jesus and what not.
I knew Doctor Who had truly arrived when my brother related this little gem...
He was sitting at home, watching the show as he invariably did. His wife, who would also watch, (though usually just so she could mock him afterwards, and say things like Now you aren't allowed complain when I watch Coronation Street for 2 hours later) was sitting on the couch beside him. The episode was Doomsday.
And Rose was on the beach trying to work herself up to say I love you to the Doctor. (And it really is a fine bit of acting by Billie.) And my brother looked over at his wife, who hadn't scoffed or let loose a zinger in a surprisingly long time. And asked 'Are you crying?'
Brilliant. It's been a few years now, but I can honestly say my sister-in-law is a fan of the show.
I think from a very early point, we all kind of sort of went OK, she's the Doctors wife from the future. But then, so did almost every other character on the show, and then we have The Moff saying Do you really think it would be that simple?
Well, no. However, I still think that the ganger Doctor could have been around. He's the one who finds and raises River and he's the one who marries her, and he's the one who dies at Lake Silencio, and he's the one River kills, and she winds up in Stormcage and becomes known as the woman who killed the Doctor.
This would allow us the time to have River learning all the great secrets of the Doctors lives, the past companions, the adventures they'd shared, and give the Doctor time to age 200 years or so before going to Lake Silencio for the final time. And yet none of that has to happen on screen. It could all happen off screen, to the ganger Doctor.
It might also make sense of River saying things like I was taught by the best, too bad you were busy that day.
reagrding the redirection, that's just the alternate universe version of AICN, where we all wear different coloured bow-ties and the Doctor is two of him.
Regarding your other message, a lot of the stuff involving Rose did really strike a chord with the British public, there's no doubt about that - even from my emotional cripple POV it was terrific stuff, even if some of the plots that surrounded it were somewhat OTT (yeah, I know, it's Who, it's allowed to be, and on that note, I'll mention here I did love the segments involving that void sphere, despite it, and them, being entirely impossible)
Also, to quickly touch on a couple of posts above by jj and perigee, the suggestion Who is struggling is something of a nonsense; according to the BARB figures, if you ignore the soaps, New Tricks, Britain's Got Talent and occasionally the Apprentice, S6 of Who has consistently been the top rated show in the country; in fact, the show's more popular now, position wise, than it was during those halcyon days of Tom Baker. Audience wise it isn't so high, but that's an inevitable result of the fragmentation of the TV market, but it's neverthelss always getting excellent write-ups across the press, where the consensus on NT there is distinctly more favourable than here on the Docback, and the AI ratings are still consistently excellent. Make of that whatever you will.
It will be interesting to see how the remainder of S6 fares against the new Ant and Dec vehicle, though, because whilst a quiz show is a quiz show is a quiz show, with Ant and Dec involved, that's one aggressive move by ITV right there. Nothing to be too worried about, though, because that's what Sky+ is for, right?
Back to your posts, V'Shael, your mention of your sister in law got me thinking about the prevalence of strong female characters in Who and the Bechdel test, which I'm sure quite a few Docbackers are familiar with; for those who aren't, a show passes the test if there are at least two female characters, they talk to each other, and it isn't about a man.
There's quite a good analysis of it here:
Perhaps surprisingly, new Who doesn't pass as strongly as Old Who did, but hopefully River will reset the balance slightly, and that's a happy thought.
Oh, and speaking of Alison Bechdel, I can heartily recommend her graphic memoir 'Fun Home', which is a gloriously non-chronological romp through the growing pains of its protagonist, and will, I think, appeal to any Docbacker who likes a bit of literature. It might be a bit RTD-on-an-agenda for some tastes, but the first frame involving the protagonist's father is one of the most brilliantly descriptive frames I've ever seen in a funny book (although, to be fair, my consumption of comics hasn't been huge).
The consensus on the Docbacks is that man_of_vertue is either that star of stage and screen, Mr. Richard Hurndall, or Pierre Menard, author of the Quixote. Arguments have raged long and as to which is true, and there was even a small war, which ended in a tie at the bottom of the ninth.
I hope this answers your question.
Ganger doc had a sonic screwdriver... The real Doctor has one..
Is the ganger doc dead? or did the sonic screwdriver just temporarily disrupt his molecules.... Ganger Amy did not have its own consciousness, it was an empty shell controlled by pregnant unconscious Amy in captivity... So when our Doctor used his sonic, the signal was disrupted, and splat.... no consciousness for the puddle to regain cohesion... but Ganger doc was self aware, I bet he could regain cohesion.
I'm sure all of that has been said before....
Now How many docs are there? 'Future' Doctor is killed by the impossible astronaut.... 'Present' doctor still alive and kicking, but at one point he will become 'Future' doctor...
The poster for the 2nd half of season 6, clearly says (Past, Present & Future) will collide.... I think some of us have forgotten that specific tagline.
The poster also features some sort of lightning or crack separating The Doctor, Amy, and Rory from River.... Not sure if it is a crack in the universe or what it is.... if it is a crack in the universe, than this is a hint.....
dockbacker MOV hinted about twins and back-stepped.. but he named it.... 'The Twin Dilema'
Coincidence? or a 'hint'/*wink*?
Since we already know there are Multiple Doctors, and then there is River who appears from many different points in her own Timeline... (reminds me slightly of Quantum Leap.....) and next week episode it appears likely that there will be more than one Amy (Present Day Amy, and Old Amy) we've already seen Amy interact with herself how many times, 1) in the Museum 2) In 'Time' and 'Space' 3) Amy and Rory were in a giant Robot version of Amy.....
It seems to me this so called 'Twin Dilema' could very well be a real thing the doctor is facing.... I can't wait to see how it all unfolds.....
re: the twin dilemma
It was to this that MOV was referring, perhaps in part because at one point much earlier in this Docback, I said of Night Terrors that 'at least it's better than the Twin Dilemma (sic)'.
And then it all unwound from there, really.
Mind you, if it unwound, that means it's like string, right? And string, if it relates to Dr who, means superstring. Now, as we all know, Superstring theory can in many ways be considered a sub-set of quantum theory, and as Canton Everett Delaware III namechecks Hugh Everett III, the creator of the multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics, we can therefore conclude that River Song has, in fact, married him. Thus the Doctor, in a fit of jealousy, will ruin their honeymoon by blowing up the Universe.
Yes - that MUST be it.
twin dilemma or not, we're still seeing multiple versions of multiple characters, from multiple points in time....
oh and doesn't River say something about the Doctor being impossible???? could the doctor actually.....be....the.....impossible astronaut?
Your theory also jibes with the one that, like GangerJen, GangerDoc remembers every life and death he's had. He's learned all the lessons from all his incarnations, making him a better Doctor than the Doctor.
Combine this with the notion that, as a complex space-time event, River's timeline is essentially locked to the real Doc. Which explains the prequel with, apparently, an unhappy Doc trying and failing to land the TARDIS.
In TRF we have both a tie-colour-change and a hidden TARDIS. The TARDIS could have taken GangerDoc anywhere for a period of many years and then been set to return to pick up the real Doc on GangerDoc's death.
Making GangerDoc 200 years older than real Doc has 2 excellent effects. One is it lets River exit the show, swanning off with GangerDoc. The other is it lets one or both of them do a Deus Ex Machina at later dates as the otherwise invisible hands of the Whoniverse.
Meanwhile real Doc gets to stay lonely, and has to keep on picking up human companions for the sake of continuity.
And ... GangerDoc may still wind up the Valeyard inhabited by the Dream Lord. While River may still wind up inhabited by Sexy. And the entire arc occurs in the Library, which is actually located inside the Diary, which was accidentally left on the third floor of Amy's house.
Oh, and ithrat, love the Borges reference. But everyone here secretly knows MOV's real name is Lamont Cranston. Or should I say ... Ying Ko?
I've watched and re-watched 'The Rebel Flesh' and 'The Almost People'.
I noticed the pyramid build from playing cards, one card specifically changed....
I do not remember the doctor's tie changing colors.... I remember seeing a red tie, but not a blue tie... when specifically do we see him wearing a blue tie i those episodes?
...respect others annonymity on these threads as you would wish your own respected.
When MOV is here he is one of us all and that is really all that shoud matter. Enjoy his company as we enjoy yours and each others.
Nice to have you here again!!! Take care.
... I certainly agree wih you that there are more than 1 of everyone running about, and I further believe that there is more than 1 universe and more than 1 timeline bleeding into each other.
As for the astronaut; yes, IMHO it is far too unlikely to be River, so i shall not be suprised when the visor is lifted and the Doctor is standing infront of himself.
However, I don't believe that because of the "impossible" line from River- that was probably in response to the Doc being a stubborn or jokey SOB!!!!
I've noticed that around 10 more messages have been posted, some of them mine, and the post count for this docback hasn't changed from 758... even though more posts are being posted.... What's up with that?
...most of us haven't really forgotten about that; the signs are all around us throughout this series, but it will come to prominence in the last episode when we see the pterodactyls in the trailer flying over modern day Ledworth, and Churchill on the back of a mammoth.....
.....the big question for me is how is the Doc going to avoid his death and put time back together as it is supposed to be?
Or indeed, will he???
I just rewatched both Season 6 part 2 trailers.
The first one shows Churchill with a gun, no mammoth to be seen.
The 2nd trailer shows some pterodactyls flying, but over some trees, nothing in the shot reveals anything modern.... and Churchill doesn't appear in this trailer.... It does have a quick shot of a pyramid with some type of spaceship hovering nearby.
where did you see Churchill riding on a mammoth?
After all, this is a mainstream, flagship BBC1 show, rather than something that goes out at obscure o'clock on BBC2, and I doubt that the Moff is even veering back towards his BBC 1 and a half days, so I'm sure what we can actually expect is something both surprising and inevitable, as all good writing should be.
And there's the thing; I'm sure I've heard the phrase, 'And there's President Churchill, riding his mammoth towards Buckingham Senate,' but I've no longer any idea where.
Oh, and one more thing, here's the first question: 'Oh? Not gone yet?'
The blue-tie Doctor walks into the monastery saying, "I think we're here. This is it." Rory responds, "Doctor, what are you talking about, we've never been here before".
The Doc makes it quite clear he's there on purpose. He demands to see the flesh tank. His first words on seeing it, before sonicing it or anything else, are, "And there you are."
Clearly this Doc is already aware of the GangerDoc. In response to "And everything's identical, eyes, voice -" he says, "- mind, soul ...".
After scanning the Flesh he touches it with his hand. He appears to be in some kind of rapport and finishes with, "Yeah, I understand."
After giving some speeches about a second solar storm he pulls his snow-ball out of his pocket and says, worriedly, "He's coming". Could be "It's coming" but I'm pretty certain it's "He's coming".
Shortly after there's the "Ha ha, only serious" line, "I've got to get to that cockerel before all hell breaks loose ... I never thought I'd get to say that again." The last line the blue tie doctor says in this scene is "Amy, breathe."
The TARDIS does its sink into the acid here.
A Doctor dashes out into a sepia-toned outdoor shot but not so sepia that you can't see this is now the *RED* tie Doctor. Red Doc futzes with the circuit breakers and is knocked out. When he wakes up he's still in a Red tie.
Scene switches to the Doctor encountering Cleaves. This is the Blue tie Doc again. He asks her how long they've been out. "I hazard we've been out a teensy bit longer ... an hour. I've seen whole worlds turn inside out in an hour. A lot can go wrong in an hour". He knows it was an hour because he's not the Doc that was knocked out.
Blue tie Doc has had an hour to himself while Red tie Doc was knocked out. Remember that. It's important.
After the blue tie Doctor tests Flesh Cleaves pain response he tells her, "Trust me. I'm the Doctor". But he says it as if it's news to him. Then, "Oh good, you remember. This is only Flesh. The early stages of the technology. So much to learn."
Yes, that's non-sequitur. But it really is what he says to her. Or to someone. She responds, "We are living." Not "I am living." It seems quite clear that the Flesh, at least in their half-formed state, are all a single creature - so the blue-tie Doc is talking to himself in there too.
A very serious blue tie Doc spends some time checking Amy out. Clearly he knows she's a ganger. He runs up stairs out of sight.
Then we see a very animated Doc running around with Amy. He complains about the dangerous acid leaks and says he's going back for the TARDIS. He wants Amy to wait for him in the dining hall. Off he goes looking very duplicitous (pun sem-intentional) and then - suddenly there's our serious blue-tie Doc standing there. Very serious indeed.
He asks for the exit. Being told he'd never get his vehicle in here he says, "I'm a great parker". Implying his TARDIS has been parked for a long time?
Rory confronts GangerJen. She says, "I remember everything she's ever felt and more".
An apparently dodgy Doc (tie looks blue ...) runs into the Flesh room and discharges the Sonic into the flesh vat. Then runs out again. The Flesh forms a pair of lips and says, "Trust Me".
An apparently serious Doc runs outside to see the TARDIS roof-deep in acid. Someone, possibly not the Doc says, "What are you doing down there?". Then his shoes melt.
Rest of TRF seems to play straight ... but then in TAP it's all red ties.
We'll find that he has a herring in his pocket.
Wow, that's spooky; I'm getting this really weird sense of deja vu...
And here's me finally appreciating the way the Docbacks work or, more accurately, don't quite work; you see, given that they don't seem to quite update in real time, or only part post things, or repost things sometimes - it's like being in an episode of the show. I mean, you can see all these Chekhovian wibbly levers, but it's impossible to tell what they all do (or, indeed, what they've already done.)
hornorsilk- thank you for the link to the today show segment, very cool indeed. To bad they didn't have someone that knew about the show instead of Meredith Viera...
caractacuspotts-Thank you for the info on The Rebel Flesh, and The Almost people... I'm going to rewatch those episodes today with a printout of your analysis in my hands.
It made for interesting reading, as did the link you provided. Although I ultimately ended up referring to Doctor Who for an example when I posted, it was nice to see the subject approached in more general terms. Stirling work! A+
But it wasn't a good one.
Some punks were going around in a truck, blasting all kinds of noise from their truck. They were breaking into homes, hurting people, stealing their things.
And they had a way of causing people's radios to turn on and to speak through them, harassing them, telling the people what to do so not to get hurt right before they entered their homes to steal from it.
I like mavalcar's dream better!
just getting caught up from yesterday afternoon, so I'll have a bunch of responses to things.
On the subject of American companions, I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Captain Jack Harkness. Even though we find out he's from a different planet, the way he was played originally was as an American. For American companions that should be close enough.
And, does Canton Everett Delaware III count?
I wouldn't necessarily read too much into it now, though it could still be applicable. I suspect it was put in when the show was originally meant to be the 3rd episode and the Flesh comment would lead into The Rebel Flesh 2 parter. I suspect they had it all filmed before they decided to change the running order. It's easy enough to change the TARDIS monitor from showing the pregnancy yes/pregnancy no thing that was being put into the epsidoes at that time, and subsitute the screen shot showing the Doctor's death date. It might have been a little harder to take out the Flesh comment.
It doesn't mean that we won't have the Flesh back (and the betting seems to be in favor of a return for the gangerDoc), but it doesn't mean that we necessarily will.
I've been noting the top card before now. But, the last time I watched it, I think that I also caught the card on the left in the second tier also changing - it was the same value but a different suit of the other color.
there's been the mention of red vs. blue (bow ties, and on amy's fridge), but here you have a case of red vs. black. Maybe it's a general red vs. non-red situation? (Which would suggest that there's communists behind it....naaah, that doesn't sound right.)
I'm not convinced that there are multiple universes involved necessarily, unless Moff is going to bring in Pete's Universe where the Cybus Cybermen came from. I do think there's multiple timelines involved, and that some things might be the universe fl