I can't believe this Season/Series has gone by so quickly - even with that hideous mid-Seasons/Series break, this wave of episodes is ending far too soon.
"The Wedding of River Song"(SPOILER FREE MINI-REVIEW AND PROBABLY MEANDERING THOUGHTS)
The Doctor and River Song challenge the mandates of time and destiny at 5:02 PM, April 22, 2011.
Considering the tenor of many Docbacks across the last few weeks, I'm betting this episode will not be many viewers are expecting.
By this I mean: those searching for resolution to S6's grand mysteries may well find their curiosity partially satiated. But, like myself, a number of WHOvians may also be surprised to learn that "Wedding" is more of a pit-stop than an actual climax or finale. Many "answers" here point toward further questions. Resolutions have important consequences which ripple into the current mythology's future, and so on. We quickly learn that we've yet to see the whole of Steven Moffat's gloriously demented puzzle laid out for us - a gutsy move at this point in the show, and a notion to which it took me a while to adapt.
I think it's very important to mention this because, when I first saw "Wedding," I was underwhelmed and frustrated. But then I started thinking about the matter with a clear head, and realized that…at no point (that I'm aware of, at least)…have The Moff, or BBC, or anyone involved with the show promised the level of resolution I, myself, was craving. That's baggage I brought to the table.
Revisiting "Wedding" again with this filter firmly in place, I found myself enjoying the episode quite a bit. Despite a few annoyingly slapdash moments (there are several references to off-screen events which could've been presented more effectively), "Wedding" is fast, clever, bouncy, whimsical, dopey, and sweet - and offers one of the most kick-ass transitions from "Previously On…" into the episode itself that I've ever seen.
"Wedding" lacks the conceptual/emotional punch of last Season's "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Big Bang" - but I'd argue that it's in no way trying to equal or best either of those installments, nor should it. Because, again, the endgame here is not the "resolution/conclusion" those titles were striving for…rather a transition into the next phase of the show.
Based on the final moments of this story, my strong hunch...about which I may well be proven wrong...is that S7 will utilize more standalone episodes - with a particular event referenced in "Wedding" becoming the crux of a 50th Anniversary blow-out of some sort (will 2013 be promoted with the phrase "Happy WHO Year!")? You'll quickly be able to piece together what I mean when you encounter said references, and I'm pretty sure more than one of you may end up agreeing with my theory.
For my money, DOCTOR WHO is still the best show on television. It flagrantly shuns conventional storytelling conceits in a number of ways, and possesses an alchemistic capacity for transforming potentially hackneyed notions into conceptual gold. It isn't afraid to be a little silly from time to time, but also reciprocates by taking intrinsically goofy concepts and inflating them to operatic and emotionally resonant levels. That's madness…glorious, enviable, compelling madness. As imperfect as it can sometimes be, current DOCTOR WHO is still bold, it is still ballsy, and remains steadfastly determined to keep audiences on their feet.
When shows are structured like current DW, it's hard not to harbor concerns that the current Powers That Be might someday take the same misstep as, say, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and LOST - both of which flagrantly demonstrated that advancing spectacular ideas is far less challenging than growing them to rewarding fruition. But I don't think that'll be the case here. With "The Wedding of River Song," my sense of the matter is that Moffat & Co. have locked a strong "macro" destination firmly into their nav systems. Now all we have to do is sit back, breathe deeply, and let them carry us to their payoff.
Even if doing so may sometimes tax the patience of a schmuck like me...
As mentioned above, this is mini-episode written by Junior School kids and airing Saturday on the (last ever?) DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIAL, 8pm (UK) on BBC 3.
I haven't seen it, but recent CONFIDENTIAL reports on the story reveal it that 1) the Doctor's fez apparently makes a return appearance, which is important because fezzes are cool, and 2) the plot has something to do with Albert Einstein.
Don't forget to watch it this weekend (on DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIAL's final episode) and comment in the Docback below!
SAVE DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIAL ?
The big news of this week was BBC's cancelation of DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIAL (see my thoughts on the matter HERE).
To the best of my knowledge, no other series on television is accompanied by a regular "Making of…" addendum - making both DOCTOR WHO and its CONFIDENTIAL counterpart unique features on the television landscape. CONFIDENTIAL is not a perfect show, and I do feel should sometimes tighten its focus a bit, but I firmly believe there should be more programs like it on the air, not fewer.
In a very real sense, early (unedited) DOCTOR WHO CONFIDENTIALs helped me to find the background and clarity of subject matter I needed to form my initial approach/angle for these Docbacks, so I can't escape the feeling that we should try to give 'em something back in a time of obvious need. The best I can conjure at the moment is an online petition set up by the SaveDWC undertaking. At the time of this posting, 19, 500 signatures have already been amassed and it's still going strong.
I realize the notion of a petition does not sit well with everybody - and I noted in bit of divisiveness in Talkbacs accompanying my previous post on the matter. But, in the end, it feels better to try something than to do nothing at all. You can find it HERE.
THE FRIDAY DOCBACKS: WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE ?
After this weekend, Friday Docbacks will revert to a "retro" emphasis, detouring whenever new installments of current WHO come around. While a degree of reader attrition is both natural and expected at this time, we hope relatively new Docbackers will consider remaining with us as we once more transition to broader WHO-related subject matter. Even if "classic" WHO isn't your thing, a wide range of DW-related discussion (current DW news, previews of upcoming newWHO, discussions of various video and audio releases, etc.) happens in these Docbacks. We've a fun, interesting, insightful, dynamic, friendly, and all around remarkable group of regulars here - we'd truly love for you to be a part of the festivities.
So, back to our standard MO next Friday (October 7) - with our next contemporary WHO Docback going online the morning Friday December 23 (based on the time-tested assumption that the forthcoming DW Christmas Special will actually air on Christmas Day).
Finally, by popular request, we'll be launching Lockbacks when new installments of Moffat/Gatiss' SHERLOCK arrive next year. So brush up on your Holmes...
The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback below - aka "Docback" - is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe.
Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.
While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become aSPOILER INTENSIVE ZONElate tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday September 10) - when "The Wedding of River Song" airs in the U.K.
If you wish to remain free and clear of "Wedding" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, you should tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.
U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS): please consider this ample notice and fair warning.
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks" - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks. These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them. Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)...
2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity. Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example. "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well. "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?" Is NOT good.
And, above all...
3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way. Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning. Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated. Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.
In short, it's easy. Be excellent to each other. Now party on...
I don't mind new questions asked, and various questions left without answer -- but I do think we need to feel like there is a resolution for this season. If the death and how the Doctor gets beyond it is explained, I think it will be fine.
But Moffat has never promised that, and I think we'll see the same this year that we saw last year... People complaining that all their answers were not provided and wrapped in a neat little bow.
I tend to think that everything from the 11th hour forward, has been leading up to his plans for the 50th anniversary.
But not to the extent that some Docbackers keep claiming... like we'll be revisiting Amy's tardis house, or how the Duck Pond is going to be relevant later on.
Notes on TPO:
The bars on River's cell in Stormcage are extremely thick. Is she really that strong? Or what else gets kept in Stomrcage?
Dies Veneris, XXI Januarius CII ... significance?
Energy weapons were discharged at Stonehenge. And there's the decapitated cyberman. Who did the shooting, when and why?
When the Doc uses the Sonic as a flashlight it was GREEN.
How did the goblin get inside the Pandoica? Doc says a good wizard tricked it. River says good wizards in fairytales always turn out to be ~him~. The Doc tricks himself into the Pandorica?
The Doctor pokes Rory the same way Rory pokes the Doctor in TIA.
Rory's memories grafted onto the Roman auton … seems like quantum rebasing?
The Silurians are part of the Alliance … since when are they a major power the Daleks would consider worth allying with?
Notes on TBB:
Creepy cloaked figures in the first Amy/Amelia scene don't look like Silents to me ...
Rory says, ~This box needs a guard. I killed the last one.~ Well now, he did impale the cyberman that was menacing Amy … but it was already dead … maybe Rory knows something about the energy weapon discharges and the dismembered cyberman - more than he's saying?
Why did the Doctor whisper to himself? Time to get out my sound program …
River: you always dance at weddings … more dancing this weekend?
It is fun, keeps us amazingly involved and most of all...it is intelligent writing.
This is a time travel show. Why wouldn't he take advantage of that notion. Makes you wonder why previous show runners did not. Scared of how intricate you would have to plot one? The Moff isn't and this has been a hell of a ride.
I am sure he has had this planned out for a few seasons. Like Lost, the overreaching mystery was never solved until the final season. But other important questions got answered, but the proposed new questions as well.
I see this current Doctor Who season in that mode as well.
For example, take The Others in Lost. They were homeless looking natives. They went found out they weren't but lived in homes. Did this answer everything? no, it poised new theories.
Same with the Silence. We may find out more about the movement, but it just make us think of new questions about them.
This is good stuff.
Loving every episode!
Here's hoping the Moff's stated plan of making the Doctor less universally famous comes to fruition in this episode. I've always enjoyed that moment when enemies realise the Doctor's a foe they hadn't reckoned with... Surely must have something to do with the Doctor's death...
They seem to feel that the episode is more of a prologue than a finale, like the season has been building up to the beginning of a story instead of the end. I know I want answers and I'm sure that I'll get some, but I'm sure I'll get a fresh crop of questions. That being said, what are the lingering questions that have not yet been answered? I'd like to see just how much plot is still dangling. I've been sitting at the kiddie table reading these docbacks for two years so I guess it's time for me to chime in. I'll start:
What is the significance of the Tardis above Craig's flat in The Lodger?
Why were there no ducks in Amy's pond?
Because just last week our beloved autocrat, Mr. Merrick, stated that for the embedded vid, he would source the most wilfully obscure bits and bobs he could find, but this week's "Jelly beans" vid is something that I have seen at least thrice, and own a copy of on my hard drive. I can't tell whether I'm more disappointed with Merrick not being obscure enough, or with myself for both owning this vid and making it the focus of my first paragraph of this Docback.
Moving on: reading between Merrick's lines above, if we go into 'Wedding' assuming it's not going to validate anything we've been proposing here in the Docbacks, then we'll probably enjoy it as a bit of a riot, but if we expect it to serve as a proper conclusion to this year's eps then we'll be vexed and want to put the Moff's head on a spike? Okay, I can live with that.
Now, and finally for now, IIRC I promised during the last docback some 'fanfic' (and god, how I loathe that word) and for those of you who are interested , it is here:
under the heading "vworp vworp vworp". Or you could type "False in every theme" into google and click on the first link - it'll get you to the same place.
Now, I'm the kind of fellow who veers wildly between thinking his own work is quite brilliant, and loathing it utterly. When I posted this piece up, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bees, but today I hate it - what you make of it is, of course, up to you. It contains a number of what I call "inverted sequential cliffhangers" within it; namely, it drags every 7 minutes, before it gets going again; it's a technique I expect soon to catch on.
Anyway, finally for now - hi everybody!
I can kind of identify with Merrick (obviously not having seen the episode myself) - there have been a few times this series/season where I've felt somewhat unsatisfied after watching an episode. TIA and DOTM were two - I felt like too much was glossed over, and while I enjoyed what was in the episode, it felt incomplete. Even with some of the non-arc-heavy episodes, I've come away a bit hollow, because I feel distracted by all the questions in the ongoing series arc. I'm clearly a messed-up viewer.
But Merrick's point about defying conventions is a fair one - we may often go in expecting an approach that most other shows take - i.e. stories with clear beginnings, middles and ends, and with plot strands that tie obviously into one another - but Dr Who's greatest asset is its ability to throw those conventions out. I think that's something SM is exploring really well. (Though I do re-iterate my point from earlier in the week that I worry sometimes that too many great ideas are being used up all at once.)
As long as we get a good old romp on Saturday that I want to watch again - and therefore appreciate more, if Merrick is to be believed, the second time - I'll be happy.
From Merrick's post about this being a pitstop, it sounds like if we stick with the ghost train idea, this episode is just pulling into one station to let some passengers off and other passengers on, not reaching the end of the line.
Don't forget that in October we have the new Sarah Jane Adventures episodes to talk about. If they don't end up getting their own threads, we should definitely be including them in the discussions here.
Great Idea. I, for one, have enjoyed SJA. I think it would be fitting to have some discussion included in the Docback as well.
Even though I live in the US...I have my ways of watching the shows. I hope others will as well.
I think Merrick, for one, should watch Death of the Doctor that featured Matt Smith. Good stuff.
But when you speak of "passengers", are you talking of incidental characters or viewers? My biggest concern with Who following a 'Lost' style trajectory is that if you look at that show's audience figures, there is a noticeable drop-off as the story goes on, and such a trajectory for who would be troubling. Not that I think it will happen here, because for the most part about 80-85% of the show, in total, is non-arc related, but should it do so, well, it wouldn't necessarily bode well. Nevertheless, I am going to retain my faith in the time machines - for now.
So amen to that!
I suspect that it just seems so short because there's only half a season shown in a row this season, so by definition you're blowing through them more quickly.
On the other hand, the wait through the summer for the new episodes blew by pretty fast too, so we had that advantage. It does look like we'll have a lot of retro Docback in the future, though.
Great points - in both cases a lack of Macro Mystery with a firm direction killed the shows. In LOST especially, it's doubtful that the writers had much idea where the end of the season was going, let alone the end of the show.
Doctor Who is unconventional, but the plot holes and lack of consistency is frustrating.
Very, very excited for the main event tomorrow. In preparation we've gotten Jammie Dodgers, Toblerone and Jelly Babies all lined up.
I'm liking what Merrick is saying about the changes in the mythology. It makes me think that we're heading into a game-changing moment and next year the show could be completely different. That's an interesting prospect.
Anybody notice that when River is regnerating she is impervious to bullets (her regen powers are still in play). But when the Doctor bites the bullet, starts regenerating and gets whacked again he dies.
well, she DOES like handcuffs....
On using the sonic as a flashlight, though - it was definitely blue in Closing Time when he used it as a flashlight, but was green again when disrupting stuff with it (before it went blue again at the 35 minute mark).
I'm not sure we need to necessarily be focusing on whether the sonic is glowing blue or green. The thing that keeps not getting mentioned is that the sonic itself that Tennant had looks different from the one that Matt Smith uses. So, it doesn't matter what color it glows, until you change some more of the basic shape it still won't be the one that River had in Silence in the Library. I suspect either he finds an older screwdriver lying around and modifies that one or he whips it up as a custom job.
Remember that in the old days Time Lords had to build sonic screwdrivers themselves? Romana had built the one that Tom Baker was jealous of. Now, it seems the TARDIS handles all the sonic screwdriver creation herself.
I think we see, near the end, the Doctor giving her her sonic, after his new hair cut. And he is in a space suit. Maybe because it keeps him alive, or maybe to let her know -- he understood, it's ok.... or maybe as a hint.. you are going to die, but don't worry, death isn't the end.
I would guess that the Silurians become a power base again when they reemerge from underground in roughly 3020 (when they're supposed to come back after the two parter in Season 5). It wouldn't suprise me if they had spread to other worlds after that.
I've made an investment and I'd like some payoff...esp if they plan to delay broadcast of the 7th season until Fall 2012, and then not address dangling threads dating back from 2010 until 2013-ish... bleh!
It would actually make sense for the Doctor to want to do that.
Maybe he edits the Apollo 11 broadcast to have one of the Silence saying - Oh by the way, do not keep any records of the Doctor's adventures. But only after (insert year number that River gets her archaeology degree in, so as to keep the timespace continuum from exploding).
Was watching Destiny of the Daleks last night, and Romana, what with her infinite noodling into her new form, seemed to suggest that there was a lot more choice involved than catching a bullet and being done with it, so what gives? Is it just that the Doctor is really crap at regenerating?
Also, I'm down with that idea of the Doctor becoming a bit more anonymous again - his level of fame/notoriety at the start of 2005, what with the 'Who is Doctor who?' website - that would be about right, I think.
One final thing here - can anyone lend me some toblerone?
Ok, I used Doctor Who terminology for a theology post.. once again.
It's not my best writing, nor my best writing on this subject (the eschaton), but I did think some of the Doctor Who ideas actually help reinforce notions I've written elsewhere, so I went with
For anyone interested (it's not for everyone) look here:
*** this week's "Jelly beans" vid is something that I have seen at least thrice ***
I'm sorry I let you down ;-) As penance I would flagellate myself, but my mom once told me I'd go blind if I did that.
The one inconsistency, though, is that the David Tennant/Matt Smith regeneration ended up trashing the inside of the TARDIS, when the Eccleston/Tennant regeneration or the Jacobi/Simm Master regeneration didn't.
It makes me wonder if there was something else with that regeneration that might tie in with what else is going on (such as maybe when the TARDIS got damaged by the regeneration, that was then something was able to slip into the TARDIS - resulting in the Silence Will Fall comment we heard at the end of season 5.
I've watched the show since John Pertwee years, but I do wish the show had a main theme that drove the story forward.
For example, why the TARDIS stumbles on events by accident. What motivates the Doctor other than exploring. What's the big deal with humans, in such a big universe.
It would be great to get a new mandate for the next season that drives the show forward and establishes some ground rules. Maybe the TARDIS as a sentient being (that doesn't talk) would be a great ingredient in this.
The TARDIS is already sentient, but doesn't work in the way we know. If you tried to change it to be more like Idris, even if it couldn't talk, she should be able to communicate through the monitors and its computer database. It would be better to continue with the TARDIS the way she's been.
From your comments I don't think you watched The Doctor's Wife. The TARDIS *doesn't* stumble on events by accident. The TARDIS is taking the Doctor to exactly where he needs to go (not necessarily to where he wants to go, but to where he needs to go). If you haven't watched that story, you definitely need to. It was a highlight of this season.
The thought of you flagellating yourself over jelly beans is an image I really didn't need to see, but I guess it's better than the embed, so now I'm curiously sated, although I have lost my lunch. So thanks, I guess.
Although I have not seen reference to it by the Moff, it appears that he is borrowing a little from JMS and Babylon 5. A tv multi-year story arc that one hopes will build to an incredible finale when the time comes. The only drawback to this method of storytelling on tv is the ever-present chance of non-renewal/cancellation before the denouement. I hope he is allowed to finish and I hope the finish, whenever, is strong.
I don't mind if moff doesn't finish his story tomorrow, but if there's lots and lots of loose ends, do we think the Xmas episode will advance the story or just be a typical one off? Seeing as old moff seems intend in bucking storytelling trends.
It's ok. I've mentioned B5 a few times. And yes, tv stations did ruin a bit of B5 so the last two years were not as good as they could have been, but I still think it is a solid show.
And I do think we will at least make it to and through the 50th anniversary now. So I think that is when the Moff plans to end his story -- what happens beyond that, I think, we will see hints of in the next two years, but of the kind that, if no other story happened, we wouldn't feel cheated.
Yes, saw Doctors Wife and I liked the idea of the TARDIS going where he needs to go. Best show of the season. But it doesn't match the reality of the show. He goes places sometimes to see people and stuff still happens (take last week's show for an example).
I'm just saying, give The Doctor an underlying direction. A unobtainable goal that drives him. I think it will give the new shows more shape and stop the writers falling into the 'end of the universe' type stories at the end of each season that RTD did.
Welcome to Friday Docback! As promised, I have my story finished and ready for your eager eyes. Just to let you all know, since there would be friends of mine reading it with little fore-knowledge of Who, I did mention this us Whovians know well..just take it for what it is.
Anyway, hoping to get genuine feedback on this.
Enjoy guys, and someone please make sure samjacksonswig sees it, there is a small easter egg in it just for him....lol
I look at the Moff's seasons of Doctor Who as a Trilogy. Season 5,6,7 are just one long arc, so I am curious to see where The Wedding of River Song fits, and leads us to the final chapter of what I like to call "The Silence Trilogy".
Underwhelmed and frustrated.'' Exactly how I felt with ''Let's Kill Hitler'' and it looks like I'm headed for more disappointment. At least I know to adjust my expectations, whereas with ''Hitler'' I was blindsided by how...obliquely...it continued from the cliffhanger of ''AGMGTW.
First time getting struck by the quote monster!
I can't replicate the post but I was just expressing my frustration over how little we know about this overall arc, regarding the villain. I suggested we don't know who, what, when, why, or how (well, I suppose we know when). We don't know if the Silence, Army, and Headless Monks are the full coalition or if someone else is involved. Why don't know why they regard the Doctor as a ''fierce warrior'' who needs to be destroyed. We don't know exactly how they're using River for this or, at any rate, how all their elaborate machinations throughout River's life add up to a coherent plan. And on and on.
I am just fearing another ''Let's Kill Hitler'' where it's so obvious there's more going on under the surface that the surface doesn't even make sense on its own. The Doctor's behavior in that episode, once he's in the tux, is absolutely baffling—but we know it'll be explained later. That's what I'm getting tired of: watching episodes and having no idea what's going on, knowing that if I just hang in there for another year or two it'll eventually make sense. I want to enjoy the episodes the first time I watch them, not in retrospect.
That said I do very much look forward to this finale, and now that I've had my expectations adjusted about getting any answers, I can hopefully enjoy it.
while I agree with your comments regarding Lost (which did literally get lost) you're way off beam with Battlestar Galactica. That programme cemented great ideas with a resolution that IS indicated from very early on. It didn't lose its way just because you didn't like its final destination.
One of the problems that often happens with arcs is that the collective imagination of legions of fans tends to start getting ahead of the actual writer(s). People begin anticipating more profound statements at the conclusions than the writer was ever prepared to provide.
Moffat's standalone episodes were amazing at being able to tightly pull themselves together into a coherent whole where every scene of the story makes sense at the end. What we have here is an arc that seems to be playing out like a very long version of Blink, but we don't know for sure. There are still elements of last season (prisoner zero, the "there'll be a point to that, I'll get back to you" line from the Pandoria Opens) that feel strongly as though they are parts of an even larger whole ... but the truth is we don't know yet. I may be taking lines out of context and putting too much emphasis on them.
What I do find amusing is how the trailers are spawning flights of fancy where we let our collective imagination run amok for a week, then get the actual story filmed which is something completely different from what we were expecting.
Here is my theory, that I am postulating. Know how brilliantly The Moff has put this together. He is taking this at least three seasons leading into the 50th!
Season One: Cracks in Time/ Tardis exploding
Questions were answered, but new ones were raised which led into...
Season Two: Who is River Song/Death of the Doctor
These questions, I expect will be answered, but the new ones going into...
Season Three: The Question/ Doctor Must be stopped
All three seasons have one thing in common. The Silence. This is the new villain Moff came up with and he is taking three season worth of goodness to intricately plot out who they are, why they want the Doctor dead and what their final goal is.
Everything else: The Cracks, River Song, The Astronaut...etc have been pieces to the ultimate puzzle.
Bravo Moff. This is storytelling at it's finest. Enjoy it Docbackers, I am.
I don't mind leaving some questions lingering, but if The Moff continues leaving things dangling with enough red herrings to open a chip shop I am DONE with this show
(until the xmas special)
I'm worried the type of "resolution" we'll see is similar to how the doctor rushed off to save baby melody, with the next episode completely dropping that and blahblahblah
I'm leaning towards the idea, that The Moff does this series/seasons arc leading to the 50th anniversary! Maybe with a very multiple Doctor's special at the end...
I ave to admit, though (contrary to my early Docback contributions...):
I LOVE MATT SMITH AS THE DOCTOR!
Well, finally, I had to let it out....
I had been wrong...
(But still a great David Tennant fan...)
The next episode did not completely drop the Melody question. If you will recall they found her. She grew up as Mels, ergo the Doctor didn't need to find her, he knew she was brought up with Rory and Amy. Mystery solved.
besides merchandising and other secondary markets.. they don't receive ad revenue correct? and the people of UK pay a tv licensing tax, right?
the cancellation of DWC is crap.. and I saw someone in the previous fakeback (non docback doctor who talkback) mention how BBC america could run it and use ad revenue.. but BBC america is trash.. they show 3 episodes of battlestar galactica or some other show (stargate sg-1 maybe? hi lordoflight) before WHO... they have a ratio of approx 20% uk shows to 80% crap and not even bbc archive stuff which they could air, or british movies..
they show friggin star trek tng on bbc america.. wat?
the doctor says "I know where she [baby melody] is" and jumps in the Tardis... 6 months later he shows up and whoops surprise your friend was your daughter!
does amy even ask 'so did you find melody?' or anything? it just sort of happens, like a monkey flinging shit from a tree.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but finding out she grew up with Rory and Amy and never met the Doctor, now means the Doctor can never travel back in that timestream and interact with her earlier, particularly as those events went on to life and death stuff.
If you need cuddling throughout the narrative with exposition and characters talking about things rather than doing things, then that's your loss.
was established last season well before this season was drawn out. "Rule one: the doctor lies!"
It actually is better writing. It means that what the Doctor says can be misdirection, and a lot of the time he lies, like for instance The Girl Who Waited, it was because he had to, to save Amy.
Saturday lunch watch my beloved Everton trounce our dear neighbours.
Then Who !!!
Now sheer logistics tell me that we are not going to get a whole lot of answers in here and I worry when people say this isn't as good as Big Bangh, which was good but had its faults.
And I'm sorry but in terms of promises I think Moff himself has made a lot of this season and over-hyped it --The Doctors Fall for instance --the Beeb as well, and there will be some dissatisfaction with the show because of that.
I'm expecting the main piece to be the Doctor side-stepping death---the key thing will be whether this is blindingly obvious --ganger--or something a bit cleverer.
Whatever, still very much love the show but there is a sense its under-delivered on its promises this season-- if its a 3 season arc---say its a 3 season arc !!!
Anyway some thoughts-
Key episodes this season --- Rebel Flesh --not only a ganger Doctor but there was a point when the Doctor was unconscious after falling which was suspicious. Also what would stop him creating a ganger River --which would explain the two Rivers at his death ? Wedding of the Gangers !!!
Lets kill Hitler ---Top Hat & Tails Doctor---there is a big gap there ---which Doctor did River revive ?
Other answer I think we'll get which will be a big help in keeping me calm--Rory is he dead or not ?
Anyway looking forward to this with a lot of anticipation.
We might not be in for full resolution tomorrow, but that's not to say the series/season has been a disappointment - we've had the doctor's wife - on its own a fantastic episode - plus lots of others - TGWW, etc.
I've personally always thought that plots that neatly wrap up EVERYTHING at the end of every episode (or even season) are a bit TOO neat, if you know what I mean! I know we've been looking towards a season finale, but this type of mythology-building is actually incredible for a show that started out in the sixties!!
The same show _almost_ continually with the same central character!!
Its a credit to the present crew and indeed to the original creators that WHO can continue to grow and adapt to modern audiences and tastes.
I disagree; this has been overall the strongest season of DW I can think of - certainly the strongest of the New Millenial Whos.
Short on answers, absolutely; frighteningly close to dropping the ball on arc plot points, positively. The Moff has been playing in his toychest, and hasn't been putting them away when he's done with 'em.
The problem is, we don't know IF he's done with 'em.
He's more than a bit like The Doctor himself in that regard.
He's inscrutable and mad, but he's got an undeniable track record with a story. He asks us to follow him, on blind trust, and each of us has to decide whether we will or not on our own.
He's inexplicable; he's frustrating; he's maddening... Just like The Doctor. But if you follow - if you become a ~companion~ - that's exactly what you signed on for. In the end, it's a leap of faith.
the idea of being Moffat's companion (no, not in that sense) and making the same leaps of faith that regular companions have to make with the Doctor is a good one.
Extending the comparison further, it seems some people are at the Rory-in-The-Girl-Who-Waited stage, and may soon go into Rory-in-The-God-Complex stage, and want to leave Moffat behind. But, like the Doctor, there's plenty of adventures left for Moffat, and at this point the whole story might not be known until he's done his journey.
Another point of comparison - the Time War. We knew some things and some basics, but we didn't (and still don't) have the full story. Heck, until the end of the RTD era we didn't know that the Time Lords were as much of a problem in the War as the Daleks. Going back and watching earlier stuff where the Time War is brought up is colored now by the knowledge of what happened in The End of Time. RTD wrapped up what he wanted to do only then. I'm enjoying the ride so far with Moffat (even more than with RTD) and want to see where the ride with him ends.
I almost detest the show now because of the Deus Ex Machina screwdriver that is used about 42 times every episode.
The show has almost become a caricature of its former glory because instead of writing a real resolution, the writers just have the doctor pull out the screwdriver, wave it a few times and everything is solved.
Last week was more than I can stomach. They continue to pound home how much the doctor detests guns or weapons, yet last week for the first time, the sonic screwdriver could shoot bolts of energy.
I am starting to dislike Moffat and I didn't think that would ever be possible.
but the videos aren't spoilers on this computer I'm typing on, thanks to the IT dept's blocking of streaming videos. Later, however, on the home computer....
I can see the images though that they posted. Smooching!!! And I'm curious about the sparky effect underneath the one eyepatch.
Another Friday and another docback! :) I've been giving this alot of thought and I have come to the opinion that as long as they explain how The Doctor "dies" I'll be happy.
I want them to answer some questions, but just like last season, if they have me wanting more and guessing, "how the heck are they getting around THIS!" I'll be even better!
For me, all of the ideas that we docbackers have come up with are just as much fun as finding out "the truth" and besides that we know they have to leave us guessing or why bother watching!
You guys have made this season alot of fun and I continue to look forward to Fridays just to see what insane conversations are going to come up... and to see what it takes to get Merrick to actually get in here and talk to us!
So before we jump into the last episode of this season, I wanted to say thank you to all of you Docbackers for a great season and all the fun!
Particularly the 'stun him, K9' phase? Or the 'Did you bring the can of Nitro9 I told you not to bring, Ace? I need it to blow up the Dalek' phase? Or the 'I don't use weapons but I'll use Venusian Aikido to beat people senseless because I don't believe in violence' phase?
The Doctor has almost always been using guns or weapons, or having companions do it. RTD even had Davros make a big point about it.
On the subject of the sonic screwdriver:
The difference with the sonic screwdriver now is that the screwdriver also has tricorder functions (something started in Season 1 of the new series). Granted, the sonic screwdriver was seen as a crutch even in the old days, to the point that they destroyed it during Davison's tenure. The real problem wasn't that it made it too easy for the Doctor to escape, the problem was that the writers didn't want to be clever enough to be able to work around the capabilities of the sonic screwdriver and would rather pad out stories with pointless scenes of the Doctor getting locked up and escaping instead of doing real plot development. In a show where you're only going 45 minutes, you don't need to waste time with the old capture/escape/capture/escape routine, so having the sonic screwdriver around makes more sense.
And, with the new series, sometimes they actually send up the screwdriver - like in Day of the Moon when he's doing his stuff with the sonic without it really doing anything and River telling him to go build some shelves. And the continual it doesn't work on wood bit. Pointing this out actually is forcing the writer to use other solutions.
If you have lazy writers pulling out the sonic to solve everything, don't complain about the screwdriver, complain about the people who don't come up with something else instead.
Quite a few people were surprised by the energy being emitted from the screwdriver, but it's not surprising that it could be done - it's emitted energy before (flashlight, transmitting the sonic pulse, etc), and with the flashlight mode it was even visible. And, the bolt isn't a basic raygun bolt - it's only working on electronics. So, it's probably best to see if this new development is going to be part of something in specific or in general.
Also, I do find it amusing that you're complaining about the sonic screwdriver being the crutch solving everything and then complaining about an episode where the sonic screwdriver was most definitely NOT what solved all the problems in the episode.
Told as a story by the doctor to Churchill? He's averted his death. He's beaten the silence. He's broken a fixed point.
Like when Rose saved her father in series 1. But in that instance the reapers could repair the damage by consuming planet earths people and prevent any further catastrophes. That's wot happens when one human lives that shouldn't.
But the doctor is so much bigger than a man. What if the wound is so great it can't be repaired and time literally collapses on itself?
But it does giveaway that the doctor a) makes it through alive, b) he loses his tardis (methinks) and c) by the end we'll be left where we started and the whole Churchill, roman, pterodactyl stuff is just set up for Christmas.
hope you're all doing well. I think we're all looking forward to the show tomorrow night...well, most of us. But this isn't time for pessimism or worry. (It's also not the time to expect everything to get wrapped up, but that shouldn't be seen as a negative.)
The pictures and video footage coming from the filming of the Christmas special give away that the Doctor makes it though tonight's episode, and that he still has a TARDIS (AND a spaceduit!) .
I also don't see the finale tonight as a mere setting up for the Christmas special; those tend to be much more standalone. No sign of Romans, pterocactyls or Churchill at the shooting sites yet!
I refer you to point 3 in the DocBack code of conduct that Merrick has above in the hopes that you can make your arguments in a civilized manner and not as the troll bait your message header is designed to be.
I see what you mean, yes. I agree.
I for one am glad to see the return of multi-season arcs, but where each season acts as a chapter, rather than the rather less internally structured BSG format.
As an aside, whenever I see the letters BSG I can't help thinking of ordering Chinese without BSG instead of MSG....
I may need to get out more.
While we wait for tomorrow night, why don't we make a top ten list of the best lines of dialog or quirky catchphrases from DW to pass the time?
I'll be giving mine some thought as I got to go do my game duty at the football game tonight. Be back in a few hours!
But when I think of it would it not benefit greatly if they just showed her and the doctor travelling having one off adventures and actually just being on they're own to, u know, justify this long road we've followed since the days in that library.
Try to be civil or the ban hammer may appear, would hate to see that. Just remember, we are all entitled to our opinions, if you do not agree with someones point of view, then find creative ways to show your side in the argument.
Let us keep our Docbacks civil, Herc is not running them.
there are things from last season that carried over, and no one has complained about that.. what people do not like about this season is not necessarily the arc itself but the way stories and things brought up are resolved (or not)
you can leave some things open ended while resolving smaller arcs.. the thing is with this season it seems like the smaller arcs revolutions are either dei ex machina, contrived or abandoned.
I honestly don't expect to find out who the silence/korvarian, etc. are for a bit and that's fine.. but the way the WRITING has been this season is spotty.. not nearly as good as last year
thus some people are disappointed.
How was I uncivil, all I said was "'If you need cuddling throughout the narrative with exposition and characters talking about things rather than doing things, then that's your loss".
Hardly an insult. An insult would have been "awww diddums you need cuddling you big baby, go home and cry to momma" but I digress...
I'm not at all bothered by the response or the colourful invectives used by my learned friend. It just invalidated any gravitas he/she had in their original argument.
At least not now. What is the fun in that. Anticipation, theorizing, hunting for clues is most if not all of the fun.
Besides, having read through the Dark Tower series, and having read past when I was advised to stop reading, getting the answers the writer has in mind is not always, and never can be all that we can imagine it to be.
So if I get a fun night of watching, some resolution, and some more clues that will just fine.
Now, off to work on my Dr. Who costume.
I doubt Bill Bailey will be Jim the Fish, primarily because I hadn't heard about River being in the Christmas special and she's supposed to be with the Doctor when they meet Jim the Fish.
That said, I laughed out loud when I saw your suggestion, and would love to see him as Jim the Fish.
Just the 1st that came to mind..
1. That looks like rot, I can fix that, I'm good at fixing things. Call me the Rotmeister! No no, call me the doctor. Don't call me the Rotmeister.
2. Lots of planets have a north.
3. Hi Rose, I'm the Doctor. Run for your life!
4. Hi angel Bob. How's life? Oh. Sorry.
5. alright it's a jammy dodger! BUT I WAS PROMISED TEA!!
6. GO TO YOUR ROOM!
7. Ooooh no. Did I jump out of the wrong cake...again?! By the way there's a girl outside in a bikini, could someone let her in and give her a jumper? Names Lucy. Very nice. Diabetic.
8. Rose, always take a banana to a party. Bananas are good!
9. Sycorax leader: WHO AAAARE YOU?!? I DEMAND TO KNOW?!?!?
Tenth doctor big growly voice: I DOOONT KNOOOOW!!!!!!
10. The angels have the phone box
Also, read your fanfic piece Darthdevious- the story was fundamentally sound although you could probably make the ahab theme less explicit. Some of the dialogue was cracking, the bits which weren't recent reflections especially, but i did feel some of the exposition was a bit laboured, as if it was holding time by hitting the beats rather than letting the story happen through it. I would have added this conment on your blog rather than here but once again my phone doesn't like me...
Also, sundaycall1, I'll take you up on that bet, as I reckon Bill will play the doctor's dad, or aged hippie cousin.
With all the talk of Peladon in the other threads (one certain thread of which it's Perigee's turn to post 'last' again - that's supposed to be a semi-subtle hint there perigee), now I want to see Bill Bailey play Aggedor, the Monster of Peladon.
..I don't care about the arc, the question, the answer...
....I just want one HELL of a fucking show and I know that the Moff wont disappoint!!!
This is the last, and I am so psyched to the max I have aken today and tomorrow off work!!!
YEESSSS!!!!! BRING IT OOOOOOOONNNN!!!!!
Thank you for defending the Sonic Screwdriver, my heart sank when it was destroyed in "The Visitation" and didn't reappear until the 1996 FOX movie. And, for all Sonic haters, just remember, it does not have a wood setting. LOL
...and had a quick scout.
I will read it all later but what I have read so far is very good.
Love the Harry Potter similarity - he has his mothers eyes- is that my Easter Egg??? Have not read all yet, but looking forward to finishing it!!
...now for the last.
I am at once elated and saddened that all we have accomlished over the last however many weeks will come to an end.
It has been a thing of true beauty. I have loved every second of it, and although the retro DocBack will continue, the thrill of these threads will be sorely missed.
These sereies of DocBacks have been the best- filled with emotive excellence, glib responses, stupid fuck ups (erm....) passsionate debate....
..we have been introduced to new friends and have had old friends leave...
...and we have conducted ourselves for the most with dignity and grace.
For those who wont hang around for the retro DocBacks, I thank you. It has been a priviledge to discourse with you. I hope you enjoy the finale as much as I will, and I hope to see you all back here soon.
To all my friends on here, well met. You are princes among men. The elite of the internet.
Deep breath. We are almost there. Let's not be disappointed.
I know I'm going to be disappointed, because of the sheer nature of long, drawn-out season arcs. Doctor Who is turning into Lost, which is bad, considering how Lost spent seasons creating various red herrings to lead the viewers on, only to have the writers write themselves into a corner and come up with ridiculous solutions. Then everything collapsed into a giant trainwreck.
I'm usually a fan of arcs too, because a show's complicated mythology is always fascinating. Except in Who's case, its become more of a liability than an advantage. Many of the arc episodes spent entirely too much effort trying to establish its relevancy to the mysterious, Moffat-inspired arc, only to have the episode's plot itself fall kind of flat. Outside of TIA/DotM, every other episode I've enjoyed this season has been non-arc related.
I'm very apprehensive about the arc continuing onward. So long as the Doctor figures out how to not die on tomorrow's episode, then I'll be satisfied. But knowing that Who is now following Lost's red herring pattern of answering questions with more questions, which may eventually lead to deus ex machina/ill-written solutions is just depressing.
I mean, how many sci-fi shows that involved extended arcs have actually ended well? I can only think of DS9. Lost and BSG and X-Files and many others have suffered from the same fate of overcomplicated arcs imploding/collapsing under their own weight. I'm just terrified that Who will suffer the same fate.
I only have a moment right now, but I want to use that moment to just say a HUGE...
T H A N K S ! ! !
For everything you've done here, and everything to come. What a ride!
And yes, let us make this one EPIC.
I don't want this one spoiled and there are far too many spoilers, especially including official BBC spoilers, for my taste.
So though it's daunting I'll read up to current before posting again. Feel free to leave easter eggs if you like.
Till then ...
The question? <p>
Can Christopher Eccleston stop berating the BBC powers that be, the previous producers and pretty much everyone else enough to be dragged to participate in a 50th anniversary crossover?
Boom Boom BAAAAAHHHH!!!! Stay tuned Batfans!
"I think it's very important to mention this because, when I first saw "Wedding," I was underwhelmed and frustrated. But then I started thinking about the matter with a clear head, and realized that…at no point (that I'm aware of, at least)…have The Moff, or BBC, or anyone involved with the show promised the level of resolution I, myself, was craving. That's baggage I brought to the table." <p>
This bugs me. This sounds very much like your trying to both justify and rationalise the episode, despite not enjoying it. I know later you said you ultimately did but this comes prior to the above statement. Despite my previous issues with the central arc this season I go into the finale with an open mind. However your words above translate into to me: 'Theres plot holes all over the place but maybe theres something the Moff can add in season seven to retcon all of them'. Maybe I'm misinterpreting based on my own preconceptions. <p>
In relation to this theme of Moffs I'd query: "Wedding" lacks the conceptual/emotional punch of last Season's "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Big Bang" <p>
Conceptual punch? The one where the Doctor paradoxically rescues himself from the Pandorica (which 'Timey Wimey' however you wish, it's still fecking lazy writing in terms of getting the audience drawn to a problem and buggering over any logical resolution'). 'Emotional Punch'? The one where 'remembering the Doctor brings him back into existence? How on Earth is that any better than 'Love saves the Day' from last weeks episode??? <p>
Still love me the Smith but unless this finale is godlike, the Moff that gave us Blink et all during the RTD era is all but gone. A competent if 'look a meeeee, I can convolute a storyline' showrunner remains.
Still reading your script.... and wanted you to know I caught the Radiohead reference.
Loving the humor, and the general *older Doctor Who* feel of it all. Very entertaining read. I'll post again when I come back to the computer to finish it.
Brilliant!! What an entertaining read. Would love to see it produced. Loved the humor. I literally laughed out loud in many places. You are quite the talented writer and storyteller. I could see this done as a FANTASTIC audio production. It would be entirely possible. I could see that dialogue being such fun to interpret and perform. If such an undertaking should be attempted, I would love to be involved. Pro microphones here, processing, multitrack (24 track) at my 24/7 disposal. (but I am in the US)
If and when you have more, please do share. I'll be chomping at the bit to get at it.
1) I believe it will get over 1500 total posts.
2) It is likely to continue getting hits well into next week and the week after.
3) It will hold the record number of questions asked about a finale there has ever been due to non resolution of certain points.
4) It will contain a record use of the word "fuck"- most of them by me in my first post when I finally come to terms that it is all over until September nextt year (baring the special)....... :((
and 5)- it will mark a 2 year anniversary of the same group of people posting in the same kind of thread- where else on AICN do you have that now?
of Doctor Who every day, we would slow down time. Because Friday/Saturday are the longest days of the week.
I guess the end of 2011 and the first part of 2012 will be VERY long months.
I have a lot of stuff to do, so maybe that's good.
Sharing my thoughts around what Moff and Co have done his year was never going to be an easy thing to do. I tried to undertake it in a discussion a couple of nights previous with a very good friend of mine, and I found it difficult to put into words, nevermind give a summation of events I was asked for.
The conversation started simply with two words....
...said my friend. Hey (SJW), time is running out for your timelord, is it not?
And I thought about that comment for a few moments, and spun the implications through my mind before responding.
What do you mean, Michael? I replied.
Well, said my friend, it's gone a bit downhill hasn't it this year??????
Compared to what? I retorted.
Well, he began, compared to last year.... it's not been the same. The episodes have not been the same style. People aren't watching as much are they?
Did you watch most of the show? I enquired.
Well, no. He said...... But it's ALL OVER THE INTERNET!!! And it's in loads of bloody magazines!
A wry smile formed on my lips. A show, that's not being watched, that's all over the world wide web and hundreds of publications.... and an average viewing figure of 7 million in the UK.
But what about compared to last year, he asked?
Well, I don't want my show to be the same as last year. Or last week. Or yesterday. I want it to change. To evolve. I want the showrunners to take gambles. To make brave choices. To change the tonality. To offer me more than the same meal on a plate week in week out.
And that's what we've had here this year. A shift in pace. A chance to follow a different story with threads that run through a mythos arcing over 4 years. Something that when finished and reflected upon will generate more than just "Oh, well, that was more of the same.."
A show that introduced us to new characters ayear ago, and this year has given them the space they needed to become wonderful creations. Those with whom we now share a deep bond because of the trials and tribulations they have gone through this series. Would Rory and Amy have developed into the beings they are now if it wasn't for this year? Or if we had more of the same, would they have stayed two dimensional cardboard cutouts chewed up in the wake of a powerful timelord?
And as for the run of episodes.... in order to be different whilst telling part of the same tale, to move forwards instead of standing still, to dare to create a new feast for the eyes... could they have turned out any differently than they have?
From An impossible astronaut rising from lake silencio in TIA to an impossible astronaut rising from lake silencio in TWORS...we have been taken on a ghost train ride hat has spanned time and space, defied the laws of time and nature, killed its main protagonist, given us new wonderful creations in the Silents, a new time lord to think about, a siren from an alternate universe, a tardis that became a human that broke our hearts, flesh that begged the question what am I? Amy captive in the greatest twist since nu-who began, Rory punching Hitler, a question to be asked that has the potential to change the Universe and and answer that MUST NOT be given, the girl who waited and tore time apart as well as our emotions, a scared little boy and a house call from a very special Doctor, a minotaur in a labyrinth demanding to be praised and an old timelord demanding to be adored....
...and some of the very best acting I have ever witnessed in the show. Ever.
I ask you, my fellow DocBackers. Think about all of this for a while and then ask yourselves... what other show on TV is this varied? Has made these kind of choices? And has provided this much entertainment?
Defend the series? If something is this good even in its weaker moments, then yes.
Totally off topic, but I know you DocBack geeks are going to need something else to discuss now the season is finished but i've been playing the BATTLEFIELD 3 BETA for the last few hours...
But what a mess! This game has been so touted and looked so incredible in all the presentations. It's really rather crap - wasn't expecting this it at all.
I know it's only a beta but the finished product is only few weeks from release so how much better can it be?
Anyone else disappointed with it?
Love your passion for the show - and you are right, taking risks and changing the shows tone is good in terms of not having 'the same meal' as you put it. There is far too much of that with British television in particular. MOAR X-FACTOR type shows. Errrm great! It's kinda like why it's tragic Confidential is facing the chop when the show illicits such passion that doesn't exist with pretty much 95% of the Beebs other output. They could get some literate, well to do hardcore Who fans to do a Confidential like show for FREE to offer insight post-episode - they'd need what, an Editor to keep them on track, backstage access and some hefty NDA's to sign? To be honest I suspect BBC3 is going to get canned in 2012 so this may just be a side product of that. <p>
In regards to the 'change' of the show (which again I enjoy despite my issues quite a bit of the writing this year) the litmus test in how successful an experiment this has been personally is in terms of rewatching Moff's Season 5 and 6 over the last two years. I think the only ones me and/or my wife have seen more than once have been 'The Eleventh Hour', 'The Docs Wife', 'Vincent and the Doctor', The Girl who Waited and 'The Impossible Astronaut'. Compare that with RTD's era, when episodes are either being repeated or we have one in the background I find they have a lot more in the way of 'comfort' about revisiting them. Yes a lot of them feature RTD's annoyingly naff recurring bad habits that fans eventually were screaming for Moff to take over, but even the very divisive ones like Love and Monsters and the generally weak 'Daleks in Manhattan' type one were good for a watch. <p>
It's tricky - on the one hand I appreciate completely COMPLETELY what Moff is trying to achieve but come a rainy sunday afternoon a few years from now and give it a toss up between sticking on a Smith episode with a shed load of references to River Song, the Silence, Amy and her Tardis Houses (I kid!), Madame K and other things or...say an ep with Tenant grinning like a loon saving the day with a few small clues as to what the big bad of the season may be, then I think probably an older era ep would win between them (warts and all). It's like having a hot, intellectual career based girl who knows what she wants, is headstrong and has her own agenda (Moffs series) or having a less hot, bit rougher and simpler but funny good time gal (RTD's) :) <p>
All this is again is in context of me thinking Smith is an excellent Doctor and me not having an issue with dipping into multi-arc non standalone series (I like to dip into random episodes of 24 and have just restarted series 2 without starting from 1).
I think Quantum Leap started as a replacement show in spring 1989 and then its second season would have begun airing roughly the same time BBC broadcast the final run of Doctor Who episodes in its autumn schedule. I'm guessing Sam Beckett was on BBC 2 soon afterwards although I'm not sure exactly when the series was picked up over there. British fans always say there could be significant delays in transmission in that era and then seasons would come along all at once. Star Trek TNG and Buffy being other shows that always had a lot of consecutive episodes to show in the UK although there'd be frustrating scheduling clashes with sport in the early evening by the sound of it.
Quantum Leap was on at night time though wasn't it? Is it in some ways the closest program to an American Doctor Who? Different of course but similar in that a time traveller goes to a different place in history each week and has an adventure with the people he finds. Also Sam had a companion in Al and his own mythology in the future which comprised his motivation to try and get home. So two things I guess. What were the shows that softened the blow for Whovians during the drought years, and was Doctor Who an influence on Quantum Leap? Do you think some BBC commissioning exec's eyes lit up when he stumbled on that property at the time he did? Was Quantum Leap popular in the UK? I gather some of the more offbeat US shows were popular in the 1990s, stuff like Twin Peaks and Northern Exposure and X Files and Due South. BBC 2 had Seinfeld and Larry Sanders as well I think. It puzzles me that NCIS is written by the same guy who did Sam Beckett because it's an inferior show. Is NCIS a hit in the UK? Was a replacement for Doctor Who ever attempted by a British network or did the genre fall out of favour completely? I expect Red Dwarf had fans in common but the tone is very different more like Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
I think Doctor Who has a more American format these days but TV changed a lot in the 1990s and the show does a good job of still feeling distinctly British despite its transatlantic influences. Is the new series much as you anticipated it would look as the years went by in hope of a return? Did those expectations shift as the TV landscape did? Is there anything on today that has the feel of the old style serials where Doctor Who originated and if not could that sort of thing work again or is it a relic of television growing up as a medium as program makers experimented and learned how to develop their craft? In a sense a lot of sci-fi could stand as a metaphor for writers and actors and film makers' own journey into the unknown and the audience too, when it's lovingly done.
Oct. 1, 2011, 3:22 a.m. CST
Sam, I never thought the Dojo's popularity was in doubt!
I built this dojo on Doc and roll.
I was mainling Who back in black & white. I still remember that episode with Patrick Troughton and Pertwee and the rest when all the previous Docs came together. It was about the most exciting thing that had ever been on TV...
Loved Quantum Leap - remember it mostly first time round. It got repeated a fair bit on BBC2 (6pm) late 90's then nothing really. The DVD's hit, then think it's been doing some rotation on ITV3 or 4 more recently. <p>
It's cancellation was sad but in many ways I'm glad it went out and didn't outstay it's welcome like so many other shows. The chemistry between Bakula and Stockwell was fantastic, which makes the occasional talk of remaking it so frustrating. They WERE the show. Sure the concept was good and time travel is always a great backdrop but Sams earnestness and Al's loveable rogue double act was really sold by the leads. <p>
Bar the end spelling mistake, I also think Mirror Image was an excellent finale. If anything they dwelled a touch long on the mining subplot, but the conversations between Bakula and Bruce Mcgill were amazing. Despite such a brief role in it, whenever I see Mcgill in anything he will always be the bartender/God to me. And the 'Al's coming home' line to Beth over Georgia On My Mind....jesus. It's 0930am, I've a hangover and just thinking about that scene brings a lump.
Ah!! The five Doctors, and when it aired back in the day I remember being blown away that all of the Docs (with the exception of Tom Baker, who refused and had to be inserted from footage of an unfinished set of episodes named Shada) had returned and were together.
(Technically, William Hartnell wasn't there either because he had a severe case of being dead)
I grinned like a cheshire cat through the whole of the show, and it was one of the first ones I purchased when I began my collection of classic who on DVD.
Looking back on it now, one of the only issues I have with it is that it did very little to bring the curent Doc at that time, Peter Davi(d)son (BBWWWHAHAHAHA!!! Sorry, private joke between HornOrSilk and I) front and centre, and I fear that damaged his credibility IMHO when it should have been him that shone, and the others supporting.
Oh, and I have a confession to make- I actually HAVE quoted you on one of these previous DocBacks!! It just had to be done!!!
It's a strange thing isn't it?
On the one hand the beeb have an immensely popular show in Who, and are determined to do as much fucking damage to its ability to be promoted outside of the UK by axing its sister show in Confidential, something that brings us closer to the actors and the producers, and gives the show a slice of humanity.
I am facinated at how hard these guys work, and although Confidential can be at some times very self-aware and up its own arse, it beats the crap out of any behind the scenes show on the box.
This, from a channel that allowed Strictly Come Dancing- it takes two to run and run with the painfully abhorent Claudia Winkleman and a host of Z grade celebs thinking they know about dancing professionally. Tragic.
As for RTD Who, I find that I begin to switch off depending on which episodes I am watching. Mostly, when it's on it is in the background whilst I busy myself with work or other projects. Episodes that really hold my attention are the likes of Midnight (love it!!) Blink (excellence!) Empty child/doctor dances (beautiful and emotional) girl in the fireplace, tooth and claw, human nature/family of blood.....
...by switching off mentally it's not to say i have lost fondness for his era, quite the opposite. I just find that I am being challenged in a way with this current series that just keeps me going back in for more and more. I love what they have accomplished here. I find the complete change in tone facinating. Sure, it has its issues as do all great shows, but I would take a weaker episode of Who over virtually anything else being broadcast these days.
That Tom Baker audio is the funniest thing I have heard in so many years. That is *EXACTLY* who I always hoped Tom Baker really was, and it is so gratifying to hear that my inner Tom is matched - really, exceeded - by the brilliance of the real Tom.
Now *THAT* fucker should be the Valeyard. That guy right there on the audio tape. Though I love Matt Smith he's just a naughty schoolboy compared with Tom's extraordinary voice and wit. Being old and gray would do nothing but suit him for the role - a bitter, arch, implacable, delicious, sagacious, bemused and utterly irreproachable villain.
Make the 50th Tom vs Matt and we can all die happy.
..I generally set TV shows by the watchability factor wih my wife.
If it is shit, it has no chance in hell.
Quantum leap is one of the very few shows she has watched from the first to the last episode.
Hmmm. What I've liked most about previous seasons of Doctor Who is how they've had (pretty much) self-contained arcs. The end of the season would provide a resolution to the arc started at the beginning of the season. I'm ok with further *new* mysteries being opened up - but if this does not provide resolution to the 'Death of the Doctor' arc then I will not be happy.
So, apparently, further storylines will be opened up - but these new storylines probably won't be properly explored for another 2 years? I fail to see how something which transitions into future storylines can make standalones more likely than a continuuing arc. Although I hope it does, as I've always far preferred standalone episodes.
From Merrick's comments it sounds as though 'Wedding' will work in a similar way to 'A Good Man Goes To War' - and be similarly divisive. Many people liked that episode a lot, whereas others felt that it failed to deliver the gamechanger that was promised. At least this episode might actually be a gamechanger, even if it doesn't fully deliver everything we might expect.
Well, I think we should be fine with a 4 year (5 year) arc, especially since we are getting some answers as the arc continues, and it is not all answered at once (and within the arc, there are mini-arcs which get their own resolution). It works.
At the end of the episode, it fades to black and Sam's last name is spelled incorrectly with only one "T" as in Sam Becket instead of the correct spelling Sam Beckett when it says 'Sam ... never returned home' <p>
Geeky and trivial but when such a goof happens at the finale of your show with your lead freaking character, you've got to wonder what kind of care was being taken production wise behind the scenes.
.....and yeah, I liked it alot.
There were a few subtle references in there to other things (Moby Dick, Harry Potter- the boy James, with his mothers eyes, etc) which didn't take away from the overall story.
TUNA!!!!! Thank you!!! I love tuna, and I am humbled you would insert what was really a (very poor) gag-request into your work.
As someone who has never written fiction since my A-levels many moons ago, I do find it difficult to be critical of other peoples work, but the only thing I will say with any shades of criticism is that on occasions I found myself unable to picture any of the main three protagonists in my head whilst reading the dialogue.
An example of this would be where the Doc asks the Captain her name, and she responds with Elizabeth, but you will call me Captain. Smiths Doc at that stage for me would have responded with "Well, Elizabeth..." instead of"Well Captain..."- as a mischevious stick-poker and to assert his authority over all of them.
A minor quibble to be sure in something that thoroughly entertained me!!!
Hats off and a massive well done!!!
Thank you so much for giving us the chance to read your work!
I watched McCoy's Doctor Who (he was 'my' Doctor) and I loved Quantum Leap. It remains my favourite show. Better than Doctor Who for me. MIA is my favourite episode of anything ever.
However, I don't remember the transition between Doctor Who ending and finding other shows to take its place. I guess Red Dwarf would be the main show to step into the breach because of its British sensibility.
Quantum Leap was broadcast on Tuesday evenings at 9pm (possibly a different night to begin with). I don't know when it actually started broadcasting over here, but the seasons would sometimes be split differently. e.g. the end of one season would flow into the beginning of the next and then stop halfway through the new season. Also, we got LHO in November 1993 to coincide with the anniversary but had to wait for the rest of the season 'proper'. As it was on at 9pm , Quantum Leap didn't suffer from the constant interruptions that Star Trek did (and other American shows at 6pm).
In the 80s it was common for American shows to be in primetime on the main channels e.g. Dallas and Dynasty. Weirdly, as American TV has improved with the advent of HBO et al, we no longer get American shows on BBC1 or ITV1. Instead they are bought up by Sky or used as filler on minority digital channels. The last show from the other side of the Pond to be shown on primetime BBC1 (that I know of) was Due South. But even that moved to BBC2 for its later seasons - and those seasons were part-funded by the BBC. More recently, Pushing Daisies and The Prisoner were shown on ITV1, but neither of them did well.
NCIS is shown on Channel 5 and/or one if its digital channels over here. Not sure how well it does but not as well as CSI I think. Channel 5 now has the most American shows of any of the main terrestrial channels, but it is also far smaller than the others. First-run CSI on C5 can sometimes beat BBC2 and C4, though.
I can't say I noticed that. I'll have to look on my DVD - although it may well have been corrected. I must say that I adored that as an ending because it ensures that anyone who saw it won't forget it. Even better was the callback to MIA.
I loved that the British DVDs had Georgia On My Mind in MIA. The American DVDs replaced it with something generic because of rights issues. The scene with Beth and Al dancing 'together' wouldn't be the same without that song.
I loved it back in the day and was much more into it than i was Who at the time. The way the been had a delay of 18 months between the transmission of seasons 1 and 2 really annoyed me though.
And Gotilk - thanks. Glad you enjoyed it. I like it again too, today. Not sure if it v could work as an audio without rewrites as some of it is distinctly visual, but. maybe that's just me.
And as for all the 5 doctors. talk- I only saw it in my 30s and enjoyed it but in the cold light of day it was a bit rubbish, wasn'tit? Not enough arc and not enough Toblerone!
No, impossible at this temperature. Besides, it's too warm.
That's my quote for the hour.
Oh and can someone provide a link for the Tom audio Cp is mentioning as the search function on my phone is really rubbish? Thx
I'm fine with a 4-or-5-year arc. It just seems odd to expand that arc then immediately interrupt it with a run of standalones. I guess the arc will be picked up again at some point next year (probably near the end) before building to a conclusion for the anniversary in 2013.
It's just that it's very difficult to maintain a balance between a continuuing arc and standalone episodes. I like shows which have a continuuing story e.g. The Wire. I also like shows which are mainly standalones e.g. Quantum Leap. Trying to mix the two can be difficult because you have to suspend the arc for standalones and/or interrupt standalones to remind people of the arc.
I feel that the Death Of The Doctor arc could have been told more satisfactorily as one 6-part story. I don't think Children Of Earth would have been nearly as effective for me if it had been part of a 13-episode series of Torchwood interrupted by standalones.
And, let's face it. This is far more interesting than most of the stuff that goes in that category.
Perhaps Harry has finally noticed that these TBs get his site just a little bit of traffic, no?
...but the answer will not be apparent for some time.
There is something about the Doc having to reach a place called Trenzalore or something. We will be exploring this and many other things in the coming year.
The stories next year will be less arc centered, but it doesn't mean nothing of the arc will happen in them. But it also seems something big is mentioned which suggests the 50th anniversary; I am guessing something multi-Doctorish (10th and 11th Doctor together? River got into the Time War? Something) -- and the clue says it is some time off... it should work, I think.
We might have more than one; however, it might be all played by Matt Smith.
What if somehow, the Doctor's own life is all changed and rewritten by the end, so that Matt Smith is now an "earlier" regeneration? And we might get some "Dark Dimension" ideas brought into the new series?
Though doubtful, would be an interesting way for River to talk about "her Doctor." What if Matt Smith's Doctor is "her Doctor" but it is Matt Smith's Doctor in a weird time-rewritten way... and the solution to this is... a multi-Doctor story which sets everything back right...
Then yes, it would be an interesting way to do it; it wouldn't be a reboot per se, it would rather, be something entirely different, causing cracks in time. The Doctor's rewritten timeline could be what makes the cracks, even; the cracks are all the places the Doctor didn't now go to help save or something... and why there will be need for an intervention from his past! Dark Dimension would be the ideal solution, I think...
...it is blistering heat here!!! The coastline where I live is gorgeous- the smell of the sea!!!
And our city center is HEAVING with tourists!!
SJW is having none of it! Aircon ON!!! Cold beverage to hand!!
Sacramento, CA is actually finally cooling off today. (supposed to be around 77-78 today FINALLY!)
I do predict we'll get at least another week of 90's weather before the fall really kicks in.
I have ripe tomatoes to pick today. Typically, those are done for by the first couple of weeks of Sept. At least in my garden.
Will SJW be attempting a tan today? Might be your last chance until it's hot for a day same time next year. LOL
Remember thinking it sounded fascinatingly odd from all the bemused remarks after previous episodes. Haven't heard it mentioned so much lately. Was it some sort of demented kids game show with a robotic hare?
....would have been an entertaining premise if it had been greenlit back in the day (1991 or around that time I think).
However, I can't see the order of the silence saving the 11th from death, as it is clear they are trying to instigate it!!
We have been told the issue regarding the Docs death will be resolved, I only hope it will be half as exciting!!
maybe they can tempt Baker back for one last run like he wanted in the early 90's!!!
And so, maybe they want this version of the Doctor dead so they can rewrite his history and fix something he does... only to cause other problems instead.
The thing is, the Dark Dimension theme is one way to do a multi-Doctor story. And it is one way which seems to fit with what we have. The only solution is to really rewrite time... then the fixed points are no longer fixed... or maybe a new 11th Doctor is to die in the fixed point if he becomes an earlier incarnation.. just something is up and I think it is time issues... and one which will require the past to meet with the present in the 50th anniversary
...but I do have my conservatory doors wide open to my back garden, which has a view to the sea.
I am currently eating a healthy lunch of tuna (I kid you not, Darthdevious!) and asparagus, with a glass of chilled Australian white.
It is BLISTERING hot here today, and is set to continue through the week. By the time Halloween hits, we should have snow.
In this episode time HAS mashed together.
We get bloody Charles Dickens on GMTV and the Doc as Churchills soothsayer. The only way out of this, surely, is to re-write time? make it so the Doc NEVER dies?
If that were so and there are no fixed points left, it could cause rammifications going into the 50th that set up alot of plot points.
After all, we keep being reminded that time can be rewritten dont we??
I am bartending today dressed as 11!
If anyone is in NYC, come to The Back Fence, corner of Bleecker & Thompson.
And then if ya want, come to a finale party at 9PM in Queens, via meetup.com. Largest Sci-Fi meetup in the country for Dr Who.
Contact me on Twitter @toughguyrizzo
..was a piece of shit show where "contestants" attempted to outwit a mechanical hare in order to win a £1000 prize of somesort (I think it was cash).
It was hosted by the most ridiculously dressed idiot in all of christendom, who thought he was funny and looked cool. He was neither.
The show was destined to become a pile of scrap metal. It was painfully just fucking awful, and those who didn't see it can count themselves the fortunate amongst us.
For my money, DOCTOR WHO is still the best show on television. It flagrantly shuns conventional storytelling conceits in a number of ways, and possesses an alchemistic capacity for transforming potentially hackneyed notions into conceptual gold. It isn't afraid to be a little silly from time to time, but also reciprocates by taking intrinsically goofy concepts and inflating them to operatic and emotionally resonant levels. That's madness…glorious, enviable, compelling madness. As imperfect as it can sometimes be, current DOCTOR WHO is still bold, it is still ballsy, and remains steadfastly determined to keep audiences on their feet.
-I didn't use quotes because we know happens then!-
Is interesting and makes me think the Doctor needs the spacesuit for some reason.
Also -- as I have suggested -- he has a new haircut and a new suit (space suit!). This seems to be River's Doctor. I expect he is just done giving River her sonic in that spacesuit, after a haircut, when the Christmas story begins; and I think we will see the Doctor giving her the sonic tonight. Not that it will be the end of the Doctor and River's time together.
I mean, we knew he wasn't going to be dead, decomposing, done for and demised. That would play hell on the series. Blue box ~Ooogha~-ing onto some street corner every episode and just sitting there by itself for 45 minutes would dent the ratings. ~grin~
The question still remains how he does it.
LOL, I could actually see that working. Furthermore, I'm curious, Docbackers, who would you like to see the Doctor bump into? I guess he meets Einstein soon? Hes met Van Gough, Nixon, etc, so who would be cool for the Doc to meet next?
I do two, last week and this week; so it's the two DocBacks... though the second one is just minor things here and there.. like pointing out how a girl in a tv commercial looks as if she could play a teenage Amy (at least from the small, short comment she does on the commercial while sitting down). She has the face and hair.
But this is where it is at. This is where we find why River Song is not Melody Pond. Er. wait. No, we find out why Cybermats have teeth. Er, no.
We find out how many characters Mark gets to play in Doctor Who!
I can't tell if you're being serious when you expressed your annoyance at the Radio Times headline.
But if you are serious, can I just ask: Did you really, for one moment think that he wouldn't escape death? Are you mental?
Irony- definition... a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
Now, what do you think, my friend???
And no- I am most certainly NOT mental.
Now where did I put my straight jacket???? ;)
It will be kinda hard to watch the new series following the death of Elizabeth Sladen earlier this year.
Not to mention it will also be difficult to watch schoolgirl Rani now that actress Anjil Mohindra got her chest jellies out in Beaver Falls.
During the UK broadcast tonight we will be using the hashtag #saveDWCBBC so make sure you put that on all your tweets. Everyone worldwide can do it and hopefully it will trend worldwide too! start using it now even :-)
don't forget the petition either, we are almost at 22000 signatures.
you can also complain to the BBC at
COME ON PEOPLE!
from the budget of Doctor Who?
Does that make sense to you people? Because it doesn't to me.
20 per cent needs to be cut from somewhere. I'd rather lose Confidential, than cut the budget for Who itself.
...cool! ;-) Wonder who else? Come on people, give us your thoughts on whom the Doctor could bump into and have an adventure with. I have a couple I'm holding out on, anyone wanna guess who I'm thinking of? I have TWO people in particular I'd love to see on Doctor Who. How about 2 hints...?
1. a man who really didn't get his due credit in history and
2. someone famous that was on the cover of time magazine that collaborated with Hitchcock -figure it out? Ohhhh, Hitchcock could be cool...
Oh I apologise if you mistook my post for condescention, hence the erm...knowing wink at the end???
The one thing I will NOT FORGIVE is the name calling.
We don't do that here, we treat each other with respect. Check out the code of conduct at the start of the thread.
I will not rise to it on this occasion, but anything further will receive an appropriate response, namely me asking for your removal from the thread.
Let's all play nice now, eh?
Wow, you're really going all out to substantiate my spurious accusation.
I'm all for playing nice, I'm also all for treating other posters in a respectful manner and not talking down to people. But, each to their own, eh?
In the Christmas Special the Doctor doesn't have a new hair cut, as can be seen in these photos from the first day of filming: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/multimedia/entertainment/showbiz/images/2011/09/15/in-pictures-dr-who-matt-smith-on-location-filming-christmas-special-91466-29429695/
During the location filming in Rhiwbina his hair was pinned back to make the taking on and off of his helmet easier.
.. in plain sight... is
*Hello sweetie?* Written on the side of a cliff.
Firstly because it's not even a real question.
Secondly because I am delirious from lack of sleep and it would be stupid. Even if it was just something I came up with randomly and posted before really thinking about it.
heh.... *clears throat*
My feeling is that Confidential was pretty much getting to the end of its life anyway. This series it has focused less on the actual production of the show and more on segments featuring that cast that are often vaguely linked to the themes of episode.
That being said, the cancelling of any Doctor Who related show is always a sad day.
There are some stories in it; obviously, not all are great, but the good ones are far worthier of Doctor Who spinoff (and even all the bad ones) than Torchwood.
The two stories with the Doctor are good, though the first time the Doctor appears, it is a continuation of a story arc with the Trickster (who might be the Black Guardian).
She is a big river song fan and was hit hard by the doctors death scence. She wants to know that he is okay and why river is wearing an eye patch
The 8 yr old just wants answers
So time to shop for ingredients for fish sticks custard sonic screwdrivers and k-9 dogs
No, I'm actually trying to be very nice about the fact that I was called mental, and tried to make light of the situation. Taking the piss out of a disorder is not a very nice thing to do, regardless of the context, especially around people you don't know.
For all you know, I could have had a mental disorder, and your remarks may have caused harm. Unthoughtful?
You then follwed this by calling me an "ass"- what good did that do, eh? All you have done is be rude and imply things that are the farthest from the truth.
I offered to place nice and to let things be, but your comment of each to their own again implies things that are untrue.
I will not crawl down to that level, but will merely state that this is NOT how we do things here.
No, I think you're playing the the mock offence. I'm sure that you're entirely aware that the word mental is a well known colloquialism that does not imply a mental disorder.
If you've chosen to infer some sort of derogatory reference to your mental ability then that's up to you, and I'm sorry that you feel that way.
As for your accusation that all I have done is be rude and imply things that are the farthest from the truth.
Personally, I find your responses condescending and rude, but as I've already said each to his/her/its own.
...was not fond of Ghost Light at all.
I have a friend who is sending me every episode of who there has ever been televised (181 gig file!!!) and I fully intend to start from the beginning and work my way onwards.
This will leave me very little time to invest in the SJA, which i hope to get to early next year.
AS said before, liz Sladen is sorely missed- she was quite literally THE companion.
Many people don't like it the first viewing; a big problem is how much was cut making it seem stranger and odder than it should be. However, there is a lot of depth to it and the writer, Marc Platt, has written some great audios (he doesn't have the limitations put on him on screen).
..mine asked question after question after question DURING let's kill hitler (Dad, why is River Song that coloured lady? Dad, why is Amy a robot? Dad, is the Doctor really dead, and why is he wearing those clothes?..... and so on and so on)
I fear that the portable question mobile will go into total overdrive following tonights episode.
Earplugs at the ready.....
best hold yourself in a little, methinks, otherwise you're going to start sounding a bit like a 'Little Britain' sketch, and then I'd have to go all 2001 on you and say, 'look, Sam, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over' and then you'd have to kill me, and then where would we be? Hm? Hmm? HMMM?
So, uh, yeah. Daleks. Let's talk about Daleks.
No, let's not, BECAUSE DALEKS ARE RUBBISH!
Don't have BBC America so I wait for the Amazon video to go up Sunday mornings. Hopefully they'll have the new episode up on time this week, last week it wasn't up until Sunday afternoon.
I've checked these Docbacks out a bit before but never commented. Love that a little something called "Common Courtesy" seems to rule here. Much welcome change from the rest of this site and the majority of the internet.
I've done pretty good with avoiding spoilers so far, so I'll avoid the Docback (and maybe the rest of the internet) until I watch the episode tomorrow. All I've caught so far is the mention of negativity about how it ends. I'm not letting that influence me. I'll watch the episode and make my mind up for myself.
..I just can't be bothered by any of it.
I would rather expend my energy talking about all things WHO with my friends here on the greatest TB that has ever existed.
And as for Daleks- well...... erm..... dustbin, anyone??? ;))
That would be rather lame.
nervous and excited for this... just 2 hours to go. I know we're not gonna get all the answers, but hopefully enough to keep us going...
And please, please, let it make some sort of sense!
You can do it Moffat!
..we are all here feeling ronery WITH YOU!!!!
(and watching too much team america, methinks!!!!!)
I have a few eps lined up...infact all of the bloody things when i see my friend on Tuesday.
I can't wait!! Every episode of Who!!! Quality!!!
.... I fear that some people just don't get it, do they?
Anywho, I have sparred with the best and this is a slight hiccup on the road to DocBack greateness.
It has all been reported to Merrick, and that's all I will say about that.
ASs for Ghost Light, I just couldn't get away with it. Whereas Fenric really pushed my buttons, I found I was bored and confused with everything Ghost Light had to offer. What a shame!!
I was watching Dalek invasion of earth just the other day. Now there, your genocidal pepper pots had a proper sense of menance about them, because there was still this sense of defeatability-but-not about them *despite* their power, but these recent multi-coloured jobbies haven't had that, I don't think - it's all been "fight of the good god versus fight of the bad one" and it's that lack of, mm, tangible *horror* about them that I miss.
But what do I know - I expect that your modern kid still finds them frankly upsetting, and that's nice, because children's misery is what we should be encouraging.
And that there is why I don't work in the educational sector.
They become so popular that people reuse them ad nauseum --you then get to the point where they either kill the hero, they get killed or , horror of horrors, they get pussified.
Interestingly , the much maligned RTD's tebure gave us "Dalek" which, whilst moving them in a certain direction also exemplified how scary they could be in the right hands.
You could make a truly scary Dalek story because the great thing about them is their total lack of anything human to relate to.
The Daleks aren't done yet, just a tad overused.
Yes, it is a shame about Ghost Light. I myself like it; it is a crazy madhouse of a story, to me, and I like some of the twists and turns. Just think of how it must connect, somehow, to Torchwood ;)
Oh, and I think you would like some of Platt's audios. Spare Parts is a superb Cyberman story -- the kind we all wish had been done on screen. Platt gets Who... though he also has a "I like showing how smart I am" aspect to his Who. It is, I believe, an inspiration for the Moff. The style.
Oct 01, 2011 8:13:44 AM CDT
He never made it home, because he lept into the body of a Starfleet Captain
... and his task was to make the show cool.
Poor bastard never had a chance...
Perigee, this... made me laugh!
Quite a lot of people bemoaning others conduct would themselves have been banned, I find this ironic.
I just saw someone on twitter claim series 6 is the best year of Doctor Who ever, I really wish I felt that way but to me some great episodes and a ton of mediocre "dark" episodes has meant that I think this is the weakest season since the shows revival.
I'm genuinely surprised people have enjoyed the last 4 weeks worth of episodes, they've, to me, felt like the worst kind of unoriginal filler and tonally the entire season has been wrong.
I just don't buy Amy and Rory had there baby snatched.
I know there is more to come but the whole issue whilst amazingly dramatic and clever has kinda fell flat and the arc has felt rushed and I wouldn't have minded more arc stories and less filled/clutter.
I'm excited for tonight's finale but also have some trepidation, I can't see how it can all be tied off in 45 minutes without a lot of rushed storytelling.
Hope to be proved wrong.
...we decided to move on from all of the shit. Enough was enough.
Sure, since then we've not always seen eye to eye, but the entire feeling of the threads have been so much better because of the code of conduct now in place.
Shit- I don't want this to be like every other thread on AICN, neither does merrick. Neither do 95% of the posters on here, who come because of the rules and regs.
That is what makes it so special to all of us. The trolls and maniacs can keep themselves entertained elsewhere. There is plenty of space for them.
1 hour and 10 minues until it allbegins and it all ends.
I am now signing off until it's all over.
Guys, I hope it is everything and more that you have dreamed of.
We will not get all of the answers we seek, that's for sure. But we're in for one hell of a ride!!
Enjoy, and my love and respect to you all!!!
Horn...... I am fucking shaking, my friend!!
I'm good thanks! Or, at least, a lot better than I was. I've been reading the Docbacks even if I haven't participated, and am looking forward to tonight. Have just rewatched The Big Bang, The Impossible Astronaut and Day Of The Moon in preparation for tonight. I may also manage to fit in A Good Man Goes To War if I have time!
I'm incredibly excited about tonight! Can't wait to see what happens!
I also can't believe this is the finale already....
Well, from what people have who have seen it have said, I expect not to catch everything first time around, I am also expecting to be watching it twice this evening.
I also expect the overnights - Which will be LOW more than likely (due to the extreme heat in the UK) to be posited as evidence that Doctor Who is all over and no one cares...
So I'll say this now:-
It's 26 degrees, IN LONDON, IN OCTOBER.
and then I'll say it again.
It's 26 degrees, IN LONDON, IN OCTOBER.
Everyone is outside.
What else? well, once again the Christmas special is filming in the the sweltering heat, so whomever of you used to like watching everyone sweating buckets whilst pretending they are very cold, well, you got your wish...
only 50 mins to go...
*please don't suck*please don't suck*please don't suck*please don't suck*please don't suck*please don't suck* x100
darthdevious – I enjoyed your story and look forward to more.
As SJW well stated, sad and elated. Can’t wait for the episode but don’t want it to be over.
I have quite enjoyed this series. I have watched all the episodes 4-5 times, except COTBS – and I did watch it twice because many improve the second go round. To be fair, that is my 11-year old daughter’s favorite episode this year.
I like the darker story lines.
I have also quite enjoyed these Docbacks. I’m looking forward to the discussion afterward, although being in America, I am about to go into radio silence for several hours.
It will be a long wait.
That was you can get pleasantly surprised when something delivers more than what you had expected.
I suspect that people who have too high an expectation will be disappointed.
As to DS9 being the only show with an arc to have ended well - there are other examples. Babylon 5 is the best (and might actually be the most appropriate for this situation). Farscape, if you include the Peacekeeper Wars miniseries, also did well. (If they hadn't come back to make Peacekeeper Wars though, it would have been a completely different story, ending with THAT cliffhanger.) Technically you could say M*A*S*H ended its arc well, but that's only because it was set during the Korean War, and they just had to trot out the war ending and deal with wrapping up everything.
I don't know if you want to treat these as something with an arc, but Blake's 7 definitely finished strongly, as did Sapphire and Steel. Even The Adventures of Brisco County Junior wrapped up the arc that it had going reasonably.
And, to go with more recent examples, Life on Mars (the British version) did very well with its arc, and Ashes to Ashes came along, added to that and knocked it out of the park when it finished its arc in the last episode.
Glad you liked it, and yes, your silly requests did inspire the tuna :P
Yeah, you are right on some of the things I should have done. This was my first time ever tackling Who in that format. Usually, I write Transformers fiction, something I know very very well. Also, I wrote this over the course of 4 days with little to no sleep...not my best work by far. I wish I still had my Harry Potter story I worked on a few years ago, but alas it was lost to a busted hard drive.
I really liked that quick fire thing he has going with massive stories that are really just awesome set dressing, very nice.
Amy and Rory are also ranking high on the cool scale, the whole story was bags of cool, Moffs arc stories are brilliant to watch unfold.
I like the spin he just put on what River whispered to the Doc in the library.
If you're going to set up some 'clever' mysteries, they need to have more satisfying - and much more unexpected - answers than **every single one** that's been correctly guessed by fans during this clusterfuck of a series.
That whole pointless, interminable arc was UTTER SHITE. I'm glad it's over. Can we move the fuck on now, please?
Canton ---" That is the Doctor and he is dead"
Pointless and misleading --particularly since in real terms the people he said that to find out the truth not long after.
Its just us muppets that think something clever is being done who are in for a shock.
.. didn't hate the episode. Was fun, but hoped for more - but didn't expect better.
RE: Tardis exploding in series 5 - have i been a fool in thinking that will be explained more? or is it just supposed to be a botched attempt by the Silence to kill the doctor? which now never happened?
still - excited for what's to come... but I just wish the question wasn't so cringey.
That. THAT was the question???? It's the one so many Docbackers jested it would be. You know. THAT one. Groan. And that ultimately was how he cheated death. After being told repeatedly by many characters that 'oh yeah, definitely him that died' throughout the series. <p>
Enjoyable enough romp and as a contradiction one of the better nu-Who finales BUT honestly - my respect for Moff just went down several notches. Feck the issue I thought I would have with this episode in terms of questions being resolved, my thoughts now are more 'do I really care if they get resolved since the resolutions presented here were all over the place'. <p>
If you ignore the answers offered though and weren't really bothered about any of the arc stuff, all the leads acquitted themselves fine and it was as spirited high-jinx as Who gets.. It's just because so much of series 6 has lead here and in those respects, I just felt myself going. 'Oh. Right. Is that it'
The halfway ep of S6 was all about how The Doctor's name had been bastardsized between healer and warrior. Of COURSE his name is the question - it's not remotely lame, and it's helping pay off EVERYTHING since he committed mass genocide.
This is boiling down to The Doctor choosing between being a warrior, or a healer.
Time was breaking down because the TESSELECTA DOCTOR didn't die. The Doctor never died himself.
When River didn't pull the trigger, she fucked time up. The Doctor reassured her that he wasn't going to die, so they went back to that point and did it as it was meant to. Proving once again that Moffat IS planning this out, as River mentions in Silence In The Library that 'some days, everybody lives.'
Except Madam K. But fuck her. Baby stealing skank.
I enjoyed that, but it was pretty unsatisfying all round. The Tesselecta smelled of a convenient plot device as soon as it was introduced in Let's Kill Hitler, so it was disappointing to find that's exactly what it was. How did it fake the regeneration process anyway?
The whole 'time all at once' dimension with River in charge of holding it like that was great though... just wish the resolution outside of it had been a bit simpler and more punchy.
Noticed the Doctor had a haircut at the end - was that continuity or was that the haircut that signals him going for a final date with River before sending her to the Library? Would be great to get the singing towers of whatever as an early episode next season to wave River off.
I enjoyed the series as a whole but it was definitely more convoluted than it needed to be. Looking forward to seeing what changes next season brings.
I really enjoyed it. Resolved a lot of stuff. But I don't think the question is as straight forward as all that.
The way dorium says it. As the doctor walks away.
I believe it means something else. Possibly galifraeyan words.
And the 'secret' has me intrigued.
The opening half was incredible. Badass doctor.
Can't wait for Xmas!
I enjoyed just about all of that. The only bits I didn't enjoy involved River Song (as always). I just hope Moffat regenerates her into someone actually likeable soon.
I did like what the question was, that was a very nice touch.
Overall, a terrible season, which fell massively short of the quality of the previous season. Hopefully next season we'll have no River Song and more standalone episodes.
What was good --well the first 20 minutes or so was excellent and inventive-- not sure I fully get that thats what all time happening at once would be like--but hey artistic impression and all that.
The Doctor investigating and the interatction with Dorium and the Live Chess and the skulls--great.
Doctor is then really a bit of a passenger until his rather hokey escape -- nice in a way but totally against the truth we had been led to believe.
The Silence were variable --it seems only River , the Doctor and Amy aren't A-teamed into missing them with every bullet.
Madam Kovarian--what a waste--what was the point of her--what was the whole point in taking baby Melody.
Fastest "he's dead, no he isn't" in recorded history.
Visually great and moved at a good pace with everybody on top form but it all felt so vacuous and really a very big cheat --glossy but empty.
That's the first ep this season I flat-out love.
So sorry, but you're off base. I'm buzzing about that episode like I haven't buzzed about an episode since I found out Rory spent thousands of years protecting the Pandorica.
restrain themselves and not come up with better theories and ideas than the actual scriptwriters. <p>
The colour of the bowties - it's...it's..IT'S...actually nothing but a schizophrenic wardrobe team, not the key to parallel universes and escaping death.
considering the actor passed away quite a while ago, I'm assuming this episode was one of the first filmed. The Brig, gone :(
Overall, it wasn't the best finale, but delivered a lot in just 45 minutes.
The Skulls and Amy with a machine gun. Silly stuff.
At the beginning of the series, Moffat said that they weren't 'cheating' - it was definitely the Doctor that died and not a clone or copy. This led us to expect a timey-wimey 'time can be rewritten' resolution.
Neither of these options felt as if they could be satisfying, so I just hoped that Moffat could come up with something better. Since he did lie, it feels as if the Doctor 'dying' - which has cast a shadow over the entire series - has been a complete waste.
Yes, I guess he needed to know he was going to 'die' in order to fake his death, which will become important later on. I'm not sure how you can build an entire series around the idea of the Doctor 'laying low' until the question is answered - presumably in 2013.
I suppose most people guessed that would be the question. I thought it might have a different significance - such as the Doctor being erased from time and then Amy, not remembering who he is, asking 'Doctor who?'.
I dislike that most of this episode happened in a timeline which was then erased - rendering most of what happened in the story pointless. I wouldn't be so bothered if an entire series didn't have the Doctor's non-death as a pivotal point. It seems as if the only significant thing to emerge from it all is 'the question' - which didn't need 13 episodes to set up. It could have been done quite simply in a two-parter.
I've been saying for a while now one of the great weaknesses of Moffat-run Who is that the hyperbole that he allows to build up is never going to be met, and I think this series underlines that view. For me the demise of Confidential was great news for this very reason, as it closes off one more outlet for Moffat's gargantuan ego to vent. Perhaps he'll explode.
Time and time again watching these thirteen episodes I've been reminded of that great quote about Richard Wagner: "Some sublime moments but some terrible half hours", and for me that sums up the series.
Again, tonight, some great ideas, and so much packed into the first fifteen minutes I thought that we were building to something very special, but once more the whole was so much less than the sum of its parts.
Five minutes in I was thinking "This had better be a bloody good question because so much hangs on it", and it wasn't. "The oldest question in the universe"? Not really. You could get away with saying it was the most asked possibly, but the oldest must surely be "How far must I debase myself to get this birds clothes off?" (Actually that's probably the most asked too, but perhaps not suitable for BBC1 at 7pm on a Saturday evening.)
It seems likely the "answer" to Moffat's question will form the basis of the next series, which if previous ones are anything to go by will be thirteen hours of tease and red herrings followed by a cop out. I'd like to see a convenant on the supposedly high falutin' arcs next time and more stand alones.
I'm disappointed in this sixth series, but moreso for Matt Smith than even for the rest of us. His performances have been really strong. It's just a shame that for the most part the scripts didn't meet him even halfway.
And just so we are clear here--
Effectively, outside of him spending the nights with her, the Doctor has let River , his beloved and Amy and Rory's daughter, rot in jail for years for a crime she never committed.
What a guy !!!
I also predicted the Doctor would be a Teselecta right before the episode began (my son is quite impressed with this).
I have no idea how I came up with that, but there you go.
Great episode, it answered everything I needed answering (for now). Lot of fun. My head hurts a lot less now.
Imagine if we'd had a mental five-part headfuck of a story to finish the series off - Impossible Astronaut, Day of the Moon, Good Man Goes To War, Let's Kill Hitler and Wedding of River Song.
That way, we wouldn't have waited six months for the resolution, wouldn't have felt that the non-arc stories in between were out of place (ie. nobody thinking about the missing baby), and would probably have gone along for the ride of craziness with wild abandon.
Actually, in this case, those are the only two options.
Either it is something he set up and we could figure it out because he set it up, or it is not set up and therefore, has no basis from which we can figure it out.
Then again, this is AICN where everyone is miserable and nobody ever likes anything. I thought these Docbacks were different. I guess not!
*Heads over to Gallifrey Base to see if everyone is as depressing over there*
I must say that I prefer the five episodes acting as the bread and meat of the series six sandwich. For my part, I think seeing all of those in a row would cut down on a good deal of the suspense and theorising and would make everything feel incredibly rushed. I am quite certain we'd have a lot of complaints about things being taken care of too quickly!
Besides, I think part of the charm of Doctor Who is that there is always some roaming and side-trips in-between the arcs. And timeline-wise, it wouldn't really make sense to mash them all up...and then what of the other episodes, which would seem very strange tacked onto the end? More to the point, where would our loveable vagabond be if all he did was go after the "big" questions/problems/etc.? Or if he could always solve everything right away? In any case, I rather like that he thinks helping a frightened child or visiting old friends is just as much worth his time as averting his own death.
Which is strange, really, because in most shows I would be advocating a tighter connection between all the episodes…
There weren't as many "holy shit" moments as there sometimes are, but that was a great arc. And I was very happy with this year. I can't wait for next year.
As for the question...as soon as it was first mentioned, back in Let's Kill Hitler, I was pretty sure that is exactly what the question would be.
You guys and gals on here do realise that Moffatt hasn't just planned to the 50th Anniversary story as we had believed but has set out his stall for the entire 11th Doctor run. Matt Smiths time as the Doctor may in fact be all one massive novel of a story arc.
I think we had better stop expecting conclusions to Moffatts story until Matt Smith bites the big one.
It's not for everyone and it's clearly dividing the fans, but colour me impressed as hell by this ballsy, confident, funny, intricate, moving episode.
It's not your Daddy's Doctor Who, that's for sure, but it's fun, well acted and beautifully made.
If you like the other key Moffat arc episodes, this year, you'll love this. If you didn't, well set your expectations commensurately.
I was supremely entertained and can't wait to watch it again. My standards for high.
Oh, and now it's all over I'm feeling something not unlike bereavement! (sob)
Hasten ye' back, good Doctor.
I think we got a couple of truly great stand alones. I thought the whole arc, which will presumably be less convoluted from now on, was fast, fun and different. I thought the silence were great villains. I thought matt smith was fantastic, I thought the ponds rocked AND i think in every episode there is at least one brilliant little moment that reminds u why u live dr who.
Maybe it has become somewhat of a failed experiment. I enjoyed it but perhaps going this complex wasn't right for the show.
But I like that they tried something ambitious and let's be honest there is still real quality on this show in the cast, production and comedy.
I look forward to next year, cuz I think moff will take feedback onboard and come back stronger next year.
I am just blown away by all that! I loved it. I do not care if all the questions were answered, all the ones that mattered did. As for the oldest question, hidden in plain sight....who didnt see that one coming...
It is going to be a long wait till the next series...sigh...
Oh, and Amy at the end...had me laughing so hard!
I agree, I cannot understand the negative backlash. I thought this ep was very well played.
I found my jaw dropping at so many points during it. I guess if you didnt enjoy the rest of the season, you would not enjoy this...oh well, their loss I suppose..
I thought it was great, Moffat didn't lie, he said was the Doctor, he just didn't mention the one detail that saves him. And, I like the idea of the Doctor staying in the shadows. Maybe, if anyone asks him his name, he could say, "I'm the Stranger".
But when we saw the Doc die in the 'impossible astronaut', he had a false regeneration-how could this have happened if he was a machine? When we saw the death of the Doc was it really him (before he asked in this episode for the Tessalator to step in)-may have to watch again!
Also, was it said in the garden that River would be meeting 'younger and younger' version of the Doc in the future-should that not be OLDER (at least in age)? Is the show hinting that younger actor are always going to be cast as the Doc? Again, probably have to watch again...
Actually, I have bitched a lot about this season, but tonight episode was a lot better than most before it this season. It was less frantic and more coherent. The relaxed scene between River and Amy was a breath of fresh air-you could (for once) actually believe they where related and just having a yak in the garden. Still think this type of scene should have been earlier in the season, showing some genuine love between the pair-after all, they ARE mother and daughter.
Matt also portrayed a more thought, measured Doc (not enough of this in this season)-hope this continues.
Ah yes-Season 7? Daleks, Capt Jack, Sea Devils, UNIT-a bit more old school please!!!
Because there is a lot of wowing and love going on here without much detail and I have very clear problems.
The season has been shadowed by the Doctors Death and by Moffatts proclamation that this really was the Doctor and he had died.
So there was a big "get out of that" to be resolved and , maybe wrongly, but certainly understandable in light of Moffatts use of phrases such as "game changing" there has been an expectation that something significant would happen to put this right.
But, despite the massive hype for this last episode what we really got was tremendously entertaining filler from a defunct timeline and then the solution to the Doctors "death which was glib and simple.
As the conclusion to a massively hyped arc it wasn't good enough and anyone living in hope that we 'll get answers next season is basing that on what _ I wouldn't hold my breath.
Basically Moffats done a "Lost". He's put out loads of questions but bypassed them at the end with a sugary, glossy load of goodness that answered very little.
I'd hate to be amongst the minority who thought it was brilliant. I mean, how many other shows have ended with a parallel world created by someone not dying, a game of chess where you can die being played on an alien planet, dinosaurs and flying cars, Winston Churchill as the head of the Roman Empire, flesh-eating skulls, a talking green head in a box, and a pyramid filled with memory-altering aliens?! How can you watch something that crazy and not think "Wow"?
It's interesting that we'll apparently see the big question answered on Eleven's last episode (wasn't "The Fall Of Eleven" mentioned somewhere in there?). Then again, this is Moff and he likes to play games!
I'm incredibly excited about the Xmas special now and next season. These last two seasons have been fantastic and I feel more passionate about DW than ever more, thanks not only to Moff but also Smith and the surrounding cast (especially Arthur D - Rory is definitely becoming more and more of a badass with each episode!)
Also interesting that The Silence mentioned how Rory keeps dying. Will that be important later on?
that was SO FAR from being a LOST-style 'resolve'. LOST made it up at the last moment and pulled shite out of it's ass. This has been planned for a lonnng time. Everything was RESOLVED that was immediately relevant, and done so in a way which adheres to story-telling form and narrative. I thought it was a very bold, very confident episode, and truth be told, I genuinely loved it. It was a real relief to be so satisfied with this one, as last week really left me worried. Big thanks Moff!
Bollocks ---I don't need to go off cross referencing other literature , I just need a sensible and coherent story --I'm not doing a degree in Who, I'm being entertained.
This again is very "Lost" --stick in loads of references to other cultural items in the hope you cvan mitigate against your story weaknesses by appearing clever.
I don't understand the negative backlash either. Given all the theorizing that's taken place on the board, of COURSE the right answer would be hit upon at some point. Heck, even I mentioned using the Teselecta at some point this year, though it seemed people would have placed the odds on it being gangers.
I thought it was very fitting and touching that receiving the news about the Brig was the thing that pushed him into going to meet his fate at Lake Silencio.
And, we can still have the Silence as villains after this, and the Headless Monks. I'm sure Moffat has something planned for the latter (given the comments in the Angels two-parter at the museum about the Headless Monks).
Maybe we can get Dorium back next season or the one after - if nothing else, he'd have a very good use for Flesh avatar technology now. I could see him having his head in the backroom of his establishment while running the Avatar remotely. He just needs someone to retrieve him. Perhaps the Doctor will need more information later...
And, they addressed the point of Rory's continually dying, merely to say that his time as a South Park Kenny impersonator is over. That's actually a good thing to throw in, though I suspect there's still more to come with him sometimes remembering the past.
The question seems a little bit on the nose, but I suspect the problem isn't the question, it's the answer you get. With the comments about the Fall of the 11th, that sounds like something set up for the end of Smith's tenure, or at least the 50th anniversary, and I suspect that the answer will also entail multiple Doctors showing up.
Is "The Fall of Eleven" the death of the 11th Doctor? It doesnt' have to be.
Yes, it is a far more in depth story. And if people read any of the Chemical Wedding I kept telling them about, they would understand -- Time's Daughter, the Drought of Silence, etc -- it's all there. And the Wedding does as it should.
But -- the thing is -- the Doctor DID die. The Moff didn't lie. The problem is the death of the Doctor is what saved the Doctor. I hope you (and others) understand what I mean ;)
I'm sure the Teselecta can simlate energy emissions, it just had to make something that looked like regeneration energy. For all we know the ship was venting waste carbon dioxide with some colorant thrown in.
-The season has been shadowed by the Doctors Death and by Moffatts proclamation that this really was the Doctor and he had died.
But, Canton was correct. That WAS the Doctor there. He was just a small bit inside the Teselecta. So that part wasn't a lie. The part about him surely being dead though was. And, we can see, it's a lie being propagated by the Doctor so that he won't be as visible as he had become.
And, this IS a game changer, this season. After the end of TWORS the Doctor is having to be far more discreet than he has been. No more of the 'Hello, Stonehenge!' bits and drawing attention to himself to the point that he gets things like the Alliance and the Silence out gunning for him.
Lady Peinforte -- for she knows a bit of the answer, right?
But seriously, the Moff has had this question in him at least since the second season of the New Who. And he decided to take it seriously. Throwing in quite a bit of the Sly -era question once again. Really works, and Sly really needs to be in the 50th anniversary story. Cartmell even should be brought in to co-write a story that season to tie it to his work.
But again, the Chemical Wedding is there..
The Doctor DID die.
There really are multiple time lines going in here.
1) The Doctor is killed
2) River interfering with time, stopping the death of the Doctor
3) Third time line which marries the two.
Although the last time we saw it, the Brig was taking care of it, and now with what's happened to the Brig...
Maybe we can find out that Mike Yates or Benton have it now, or it got sent back to UNIT to be entrusted back to the Doctor when he shows up on Earth.
Despite all my gripes I do agree with the direction that Moffatt is taking the Doctor ---these constant saving the universe story arcs were getting ever bigger and more silly so it will be great for us to be in smaller story territory going forward.
No argument from me on that. The end of the godlike Doctor can't come soon enough.
I'm really fond of how the show has developed one big arc since Moffat took over. I think expecting all the answers to a season during that season is the wrong approach. As someone else said, it's like a novel now. You don't get all the answers in the same chapter.
I expect next season to do the same, and the season after, perhaps with the Smith years climaxing in the multi-Doctor anniversary episode. I have a lot of faith that Moffat won't just do a multi-Doctor special, but work it in the overall arc, and that has me very excited.
Sorry but you've got a basic misunderstanding here.
The Doctor we saw get shot in TIA was the Doctor in the Teselecta -- he never died.
River caused problems by stopping this "death" which resulted in the timeline we saw in this show.
It's like a novel and I'm enjoying seeing Moff's masterplan being played out across the seasons. Unlike Lost, which gave lots of questions and defaulted on the majority of the answers at the end, Moff is sprinkling each season with enough answers to keep me happy.
"Study the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz" <p>
Why? Does the protagonist die in the bookends of the tome, coupled with all characters inbetween singing "Oh it's definitely him that bites it" only for him to be replaced by a robot doppleganger that you met once on page 525 too? <p>
Tis OK though. Moff is unique apparently because he lies. And so is the Doctor because he lies. The trouble is lies only really work in drama when it tells you something about the character (ala something like Hugh Lauries Doctor, not Smiths). Using the lies to write you out of corners just sucks. <p>
I also found it amusing that the Blue Head starting referring to next year or 2013's implied 'the fall of Eleven' early in the episode when at that point everyone (including the aforementioned Head) was still referring to the Doctors imminent and 'so fixed in time it cannot be shifted even if you ate so many Jelly Babies, got fat and pushed it' death at the Lake. <p>
And that's the rub. It's like reaching a destination and saying 'we're here. but being here sucks - just wait till we get over THOSE hills'. At lot of these shows are about the journey and not so much the destination, and I guess that's my main bugbear in S6 - so much emphasis in the arc episodes has been placed at these destinations/events. You can dress it up however you like, but I was genuinely expecting something better than 'robot doppleganger' when the Astronaut aired and all characters started saying 'Look - no tricks. It was DEFINITELY him'. <p>
Go ahead and deceive your viewer, but you'll only lose their trust slightly when they try to sell their next destination. Cue S7's opener in a year - The Doctor faces Death. Twice. It's SERIOUSLY HIM THIS TIME WE COMPLETELY PINKY SWEAR. <p>
As mentioned earlier though, as an episode if you ignored any attempt to process anything of what the previous 12 episodes had spent wooing you with it was a good if slightly empty romp.
-Effectively, outside of him spending the nights with her, the Doctor has let River , his beloved and Amy and Rory's daughter, rot in jail for years for a crime she never committed.
-What a guy !!!
She's staying in there so that the illusion that the Doctor is dead is maintained. Because she knows how important that is.
And, we know he IS spending the nights with her, and this will be the period where he takes her out to see Stevie Wonder. Also, we've seen how immensely pregnable the defenses at Stormcage are, so it's not like River can't break out of there at any time she wanted. Heck, the Doctor's probably letting her make trips to stock up on the hallucinogenic lipstick.
And, ask yourself, if Stormcage were all it was supposed to be cracked up to be, wouldn't they have ensured that River didn't have any of that hallucinogenic lipstick after the first time she escaped? At this point it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Doctor bought up Stormcage through some shell companies and some shenanigans, and laid in explicit instructions for how River should be treated.
the multiple timelines, and needing to go from 1 to 2 to 3 to get it all resolved. I think it breaks down differently, though.
1. River doesn't shoot the Doctor, resulting in
2. Time All At Once universe, taken care of by the Doctor in
3. River shoots the Doctor.
In 1 and 3, it can be the Teselecta for both of those universes. The fixed point was River shooting and the apparent death.
.. and I bet there will be a percentage of people here who will be slightly disappointed....
That was AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do I have questions I still want answered? Yes. Were they answers I assumed I would get by the finale?
That was just so moving and brilliant and fun and run on and run on.
Oh my, oh my!!
My mind is just spilling over with possibilities, venting the steam of imagination.... clearing out childhood memories in order to make room for wild guesses and theories.
Mr MOFF!! You did it again. Please stick around.
This made up for anything my not-quite-in-check cynicism had a problem with this year. I take it all back.
Doctor Who is the best ongoing story in the history of TV. And now the curtains have been thrown open for another 100 years of storytelling to shine through.... or more.
When I'm 85, I'll see you all on what we won't call the *Internet* anymore, having our own adventures in the virtual Whoniverse together. When *FX Budgets* will no longer have meaning and virtual worlds will exist in parallel to our world, blending for fun, education and unprecedented human intimacy (get out of the gutter lol).
My friends, we just watched a beautiful thing.
We actually don't know what time the Teselecta is from, so the Time Agency could have expanded a lot more than what it was when Jack was there (in this case ignoring season 2 Torchwood references to the Time Agency - Torchwood died, but obviously came back stronger than ever in the future given that the Torchwood Institute was sponsoring trips to habitable planets locked in the orbit of black holes). Of course, I'm wondering now if Magnus Greel was expecting a person like Jack, or a ship like the Teselecta to be coming back for him.
I suspect that Moffat's intending it to be 52nd century. He seems to like that general time period - 50th to 52nd, and has been expanding it greatly (Jack, the ship in The Girl in the Fireplace, the Library, what we've seen with River, the Church, etc.)
When The Doctor said *River came twice*...
I actually immediately said "that's what she said" out loud. (whatever that means *cough cough*)
Luckily no-one in the room got it.
Because my mom was there sitting about 5 feet away. Yeesh.
I need to go find a way to calm the heck down now. Because I'm reeling.
I really hope the rest of you were able to enjoy it as much as I did. If not, maybe watch again....
Oh I don't doubt it. I'm not familiar with the piece, but I've Wikied it and some if not many themes do sound similar to what Moff appears to be shooting for. <p>
It's a show about Time Travel. I love the show. I expect gaps in logic and fantastical escapes, similar almost to those old 50's serials where at the end of one episode the heroes would be just driving off a cliff only in the next it turns out the heroes managed to swerve the car away from the cliff 10 seconds before the edge even though in the previous cliffhanger they had been less than one second away from it. <p>
However my only disappointment is that from a story telling point of view it shifts a lot a the mo from a 'these are the rules and contexts of our predicament. There will be consequences for our heroes in light of the said situation' to a 'HA HA just kidding, it's a light entertainment show - of course we can change the rules anytime'. Again this has always been the case with Who but something about S6 in particular gets me <p>
I'm still a fan however and again Smith is awesome. Very impressed with his take.
Sorry but I'm not buying that Season 6 is explained by a classic work of mysticism.
I think you are trying to retrofit what happened here to make it better than it actually was, which is fine if that helps you with the disappointment but as you are one of those folk whose theories have turned out to be far more palatable than what we actually got I think you are just deluding yourself with this.
Alright. Look. I never questioned something like the tesselecta, that can adjust height, hair, voice, simulate clothes and skin tone and feinting to simulate any criminal in the universe ever struggling to simply GLOW to look like it's regenerating. That's fine. We're cool with that.
But. I saw LKH. Hell I really liked LKH. I liked the concept of transforming robots with tiny people. But it established that this transforming robot with tiny people and attachable motorcycle not only moved awkwardly, was terribly complicated to operate and could take a crashing TARDIS TO THE FACE and be fine but to the audience it looked and sounded very much like a robot when we watched it in action. Which was fine. It was logical.
Fastforward to TWORS which I also really enjoyed, and if I have this right, from the second the doctor isn't wearing his Stetson, I.e. Soothsayer, on the train, in the pyramid etc. It's the tesselecta, cuz we see in it's eye it's old short haired Stetson doctor, NOW I HAVE A BIG ISSUE.
This robot is not only 100% affected by the silence, but compatible with the eyepatches, can get stun gunned by Amy, still behaves as one pole of catastrophe with river via touch even though the doctor isn't really touching her BUT is now also able to perfectly replicate the doctors animated manic emotional mannerisms perfectly?????
I wish I hadn't thought about it. Cuz now I'm rightly pissed off at that. The T doctor gave a big old people r dying here speech while patches went mad and silents ran wild, when he was armed with s machine designed to GIVE EM HELL?!?! why did he volunteer to remain churchills prisoner all that time????
Sorry. No. Annoyed now
The Doctor really died. That was a key point in time. The Doctor died, and it is because the Doctor really died, that the Teselecta can be recruited and do him a favor. His death was necessary for his salvation. But also necessary was River to break time -- and the only way she could do that, too, is for him to die. If he didn't die, she wouldn't break time.
Again, it is very much a continuation of the Game of Rassilon - but also -- the whole mysticism of death in all kinds of Christian esoteric circles. He had to die to survive his death. This puts him on a new level.
Fine, I buy a lot of what you are saying --there's still the little niggle though of Amy and Rory's baby being allowed to grow up without mum and dad to fit in with the Doctors deception.
And so much of Rivers talk to Amy about havving to pretend not to know this or that had a hint of retrofitting bullshit it was unbelievable.
The fact that it _might_ seem to be a cheat however shows it is not a cheat, and quite a serious contender for a philosophical-allegorical story for Doctor Who using one of the classic ones as its base. That takes guts -- because it really _is_ a difficult piece to grasp (if anyone truly does that is... ). But it also provides proof this solution is more complex than it might first appear, and there is more to the story than it might appear to many.
Not just about time travel. Sci-fi engages philosophical mysticism quite often - from PKD to Frank Herbert to Gene Wolfe (who also does time travel). I wouldn't be surprised if Wolfe is an immediate influence which led to the Moff taking on deeper religious symbolism.
It wouldn't surprise me if Moffat had borrowed some from that work when setting things up. He's had the education and training for it to make sense that he's read it.
Plus, it's far more plausible that he took inspiration from there than if he were to, say, take all the structure and explanations from the book Knitting For Girls.
Doctor Who's been famous for taking from other sources - Hinchcliffe and Holmes certainly made no bones about it, and how many times have there been lifts from The Iliad or The Odyssey? So, we have something that isn't as well known to the mainstream (educated) individual. That doesn't mean that it wasn't used as inspiration.
Did you ever think that the Tesselecta was piloted by the doctor?
Then it could easily mimic his movements and shut down when hit by the stungun.
The bit at the eye he could have easily nipped up to the eye at that bit...
When you study the Chemical Wedding, it becomes clearer; the Doctor HAD to die to survive his death. THAT is what we saw. The Doctor truly died, but it is because he truly died and let himself die he could and did live.
Any one else thinking that "the fall of the eleven" isn't referring to the eleventh doctor, but rather to eleven doctors?
Also, if you are going to ask "Doctor WHO?" surely the answer MUST have 11 faces?
I really enjoyed it, nothing felt quite over at the end though. Which was, it must be said, odd, but seeing that this season kind of started with a finale, it's kind of fair enough.
-And so much of Rivers talk to Amy about havving to pretend not to know this or that had a hint of retrofitting bullshit it was unbelievable.
We'll have to disagree here. Moffat knew what he was setting up with River, and that things would be out of order, so this wasn't 'retrofitting bullshit' but stuff that was planned. The only thing that would fit in with what you are claiming is the bit about aging backwards slowly to make people nervous, and that's only a concession to not being able to actually shoot all of River's scenes in reverse order.
'the moff lies - where did you get that from' <p>
Ive got it from lots of people throughout these docbacks and from moff himself from his twitter feed where continually say 'well the doc/moff lies' when presented with something that contradicts past information we have been given.
You feel that way because you are fully invested in Moff and his era ...
You said "I can't think of a single Matt Smith episode where he hasn't brought something to the table in terms of character and performance."
The same could be said of Tennant's run but many would disagree because they don't like RTD ...
There is almost no such thing as a show with "no redeeming parts" but Moff has had his fair share of stinkers these past two years ... episodes that would have been ripped apart had RTD been in charge.
The Doctor didn't die, he was in the Teselecta all along. The breaking of the fixed point was River not shooting, it wasn't that the Doctor didn't (apparently) die. The scene with the Teselecta was BEFORE the scene at Lake Silencio, otherwise the letters would never have been delivered. Moffat only held back the bit of the scene that gave away how he was getting out of dying at the fixed point.
I did u know, at first I thought it was quite clever, he had to be speaking of course. But even if it's a really good mimic it still has all that other stuff that doesn't make sense.
I know the resolution is held for twisty dramatic effect, but rewatch it with the knowledge that beardy, long haired doc is the teselecta and so much of it just doesn't hold together.
Why did the eyepatches going mad hurt him etc? Why pretend?
I don't need to read it ---my job was to watch this show and be entertained.
Because you allude to seperate literature and say that there is a connection and this connection suggests some form of ascension actually flies in the face of what happened.
The Doctor was always in the Teselecta and wasn't going to die because thats what we saw. For me to say for instance that there are parallels with Jesus and Jesus did die and rise again so the Doctor must have is risible.
Lets just leave other literature out of it and base our discussion on what happened in the show eh?
But this episode, and the stories that led up to it, made the series feel like a living, breathing thing to me.
It was as if, like the Doctor and his TARDIS, we were treated to a special, short moment in time when Doctor Who was personified. When we were given the opportunity to sit down with this living, breathing entity and .... spend 45 minutes with HER instead of IT.
Probably. But I am moved. And excited. Enthusiastic.
Not sure I'll be able to shut up for one free moment about this, for quite a while.
You know what the best part is, for me??
I still have HUNDREDS of episodes of Doctor Who that I have never seen. I cannot wait until I can say that I've seen all the old Who that can be seen.... then come back and watch this current series again.
And I think I'd now like to marry River. (or Beth Willis, depending on who is available... rawwr!)
(and look at that smile!! glowing! pure charm! http://tinyurl.com/6f3rby8 )
The Moff and team have done something special, and will continue to do so if they are allowed. AND although I do think we'll get more of what are considered *stand alone* episodes, I'm not fooled for a second. We all know this isn't over, and there will be long, tangled threads to follow next series. Oh sure, we may get some silliness in-between. A few comedians as guests, perhaps some farty aliens. But throughout and lurking underneath, we will have a GREAT science fiction epic of unprecedented proportion and humanity.
Only the Doctor's death can solve all the complexities. No death, no River stopping time. No death, no salvation for the Doctor. He really had to die, and he did. But because he died the whole sequence was set in motion for him to transcend the trap.
'the moff lies - where did you get that from'
That is NOT what I asked, and ignores what I had directly quoted from you
My quote from your original post was:
-Moff is unique apparently because he lies
And my response was:
Where did you come up with that? RTD lied all the time so as to keep suprises hidden until the show aired.
You had said he was UNIQUE apparently because he lies. I was addressing that point. I wasn't asking if Moffat lied, I was asking why you would make a comment like Moffat was unique in this aspect.
The thing bothering me is that you put quotation marks around that question you led with, making it sound like you were quoting from my post when you were doing nothing of the sort there. It's intellectually dishonest to fake quotations like that, and I would expect better from you in a discussion. Please do not try that trick on me again.
dont get me wrong, I had a great time with the series and I'm not bashing. I'm a moff fan.
But when did he switch then? When did he cut his hair again? Where was he hiding his Stetson. Why did the robot kissing river restart time? Why since he let her in on the plan did she still sob and cry when shooting him???
Don't be patronising mate.
You've already shown you've misunderstood the Doctors death and you've misunderstood where the Teselecta came into play so alll your "cleverer than thou" ploys are a massive fail when you can't even grasp the plot.
He was the Doctor -- which is also why his touching River was able to make time start again. And once time was starting, the Teselecta could and did take his place, so that by the end of the wedding the transformation was complete.
It was an alchemical trick. Seriously.
He deserves the bravo but I think what he did is not going to be noticed by many. The whole wedding is more than meets the eye.. of course, the Doctor shows us this, too.. by literally being in the eye by the end.
I don't think we'll convince each other, and I suspect that it won't matter in the long run. Even if he didn't die physically, he's had a spiritual death and rebirth (which was what was being pointed out in AGMGTW as something that would need to happen), and that's probably the important part.
River stopped time because she fundamentally misunderstood what was going to happen - the Fixed point in time had to be River shooting the Teselecta because if it wasn't then the Doctor not dying would have meant time was still broken.
If this is the middle bit of a trilogy then this was fucking brill.
Moffat isn't answering everything on a series by series timeline, he doesn't have to, he's obviously going for the 50th anniversary story, whatever that is. Maybe then we'll find out where the ducks are.
This is a long story and we're in the middle with no idea where we're going. Chances are we won't until Matt Smith moves on, and chances are that won't be until the end of the 50th anniversary in 2013.
And the "Dr Who?" question: the way people talked about it here it was only a play on words. Tonight it was who the fuck is he? Really? He destroyed the Darliks, imprisoned his own people, leads most of his friends to death or misery, and he's a nice person? Really? He's said himself he's selfish.
What if the answer is he's really the doctor that Tennant was after TWOM, but more? That's the question that's important for the character from here on. All that power, with a self-perceived right to use it in any way he thinks fit. That would scare the shit out of anyone. Especially if you were in his way.
I have next to no idea what's going on. And I love that.
This is easily worth less than thirteen hours a year of my life for fuck's sake. Tonight was great. Loved it, loved this series and can't wait until Christmas.
By all means run mate but this :-
"He was the Doctor -- which is also why his touching River was able to make time start again. And once time was starting, the Teselecta could and did take his place, so that by the end of the wedding the transformation was complete.
It was an alchemical trick. Seriously."
Is not what happened-- you need to go back and watch again
but, that's a completely different universe that didn't have all the other stuff happening in it (or stuff's happening all at once). In that universe the Doctor was a soothsayer and the Teselecta probably didn't exist - why have a ship that will go back in time to catch criminals when time doesn't exist there?
In the real universe, though, the Doctor DID talk to the crew of the Teselecta beforehand, and set things up.
Salvador Dali (with a nod to perception of time)
Ben Franklin (alluded to but never shown.. come on a one-off about monsters that live in electricity set in early america would be cool)
Nikola Tesla (mad genius meets mad genius)
Samuel Taylor Coleridge and William Wordsworth (!!!)
I dont think it was the Tesselecta at the wedding, just on the beach...The T delivered the letters, then popped off in time to the Lake, the Doctor did the same thing, then parked the TARDIS in the T and waited for Amy and Rory to show up...my take on it anyway
How was it the Doctor at the wedding--before he kisses River he tells her to look him in the eye and she sees him in the Teselecta...the only reason she kisses him and frees time is because she realises that he won't die and NEVER WOULD HAVE
If you marry a tiny version of a man in life sized robot suit, are you married to the tiny man, or the suit?
On the did the doctor die question? i think it was always the tesselecta at lake silencio- it explains where the second tardis was and - it was inside the doctor all along.
20. Pond. Amelia pond.
19. The face of the devil himself.
18. The chess game.
17. Jacks stag parties
16. Liz the 1st. Again heard and not seen lol.
15. If there's only a few they're not too difficult.
14. Gantoks demise. And the skulls. That's just cool no matter what age you are.
13. Silent aquarium
12. Head in a box.
11. Smiths reaction to not being shot
10. Texting and scones
9. IT HAS NEVER LAID A GLOVE ON ME!
8. Everybody loves the doctor. Aw.
7. YOU EMBARRASS ME. bastard.
6. Amy and death by eyepatch.
5. Hard as Nails Rory and his eyepatch of doom.
4. THE MAN WHO DIES AND DIES AGAIN.
3. Mother in law.
2. River came twice.
That is all
... never died. He was in the Teselecta thing from when he met everyone in Utah to the point at which he died - including the parallell time-dying universe.
Now, a few people mentioned that the soothsayer doctor was another version/never really existed - BUT, that's not the case - remember the doctor mentioned that he and River were Ground Zero for the Event, so he (that is, teselecta doc) and River remained intact, as it were. Hence them retaining their memories, whilst everything changed around them.
And I don't know why there's this suggestion that it wasn't the teselecta at the wedding (although, as Moffat pointed out in confidential, it might not be a proper wedding - seeing as the Doctor didn't give his name!) - we actually saw the Doc in the little eye!
This is probably true of all those who haven't enjoyed Moff's run. That's the thing with Doctor Who. Each time there's a new showrunner, you effectively get a new show. There's quite a lot you can do when the show deals with a guy travelling around time and space, with no set objective. In Doctor Who, one episode can be whimsical fun whilst the next can be intelligent science fiction or gothic horror. The same could be said of seasons under different showrunners.
The good thing about this is that each time the show effectively regenerates, you can hop back onboard and see whether it's "your" Doctor Who now.
Personally, I've enjoyed both the RTD and Moff Doctor Who seasons. I seem to prefer Moff's slightly more though but that's because I feel he's trying new things whereas RTD was more interested in the past. It's an exciting time to be a DW fan. Well, it is for me, anyway.
Great list, but WOW
TESLA! That could end up being one of the best stories Doctor Who has ever tried... if they ever do it.
His life was such a tragedy and yet a kind of triumph in a way. It would be a great, complex character for The Doctor to come in contact with. They would have to be careful not to repeat themselves, dramatically, since they already did the whole *take him forward in time and show him the impact he eventually had* thing with van Gogh.
Could be great. Unless they take him back to meet the 80s hair band named after him. lol!!!
And yes, lets get moving on the car balloon thing right now I'll *pick up* the helium. I want a VW Van held aloft by balloons.
since he wasn't in the Teselecta when he got married.
A more appropriate question would be that if you got married to another time traveler in a timeline that's now defunct, does the wedding still count?
If you go by Amy's reaction to killing Kovarian, she'd consider it binding. It does, however, explain River's question to Amy in Time of the Angels about would it be that simple? No, it wasn't. Not really.
Thoroughly enjoyed it. And I wish I'd voiced my theory when Let's Kill Hitler aired - I thought it was a possibility that the 'ship' could be used in such a way. Kicking myself now! >-<
Can't wait for next season which looks to be an arc about the Doctor's name! GEEKGASM!
As I said above ... I DO NOT think its possible to have any "truly terrible" episodes but I do think when Moff episodes are bad they are JUST AS BAD as the worst RTD offered up ...
If RTD had given us 'Hungry Earth/Cold Blood' people would hate more ...
If RTD had given us 'Victory of the Daleks' we would have been screaming ...
Same could be said for 'Vampires of Venice' 'Curse of the Black spot' 'Closing Time' 'Night terrors' ...
You said yourself you found some RTD episodes to be "complete rubbish" ... but Moff can do no worse than mediocre, thats cool thats your opinion.
What I'm saying is that by his very nature Moff has managed to create this 'fan' shield around himself because he is seen as some kind of mystical visionary and its this shield that means he gets away with poor stuff when RTD did not.
The Spacesuit'ed River shoots the "Teselecta Dr" and inside all hell brakes loose!
The energy pulse effects the Tiny Doctor and stops his 2 hearts, effective killing him. The others in the Teselecta are probably stunned since it was a weapon designed to kill the 2 hearted Dr. not normal humans.
But before hand, the Dr programs the Teselecta sends out a smokescreen when shot (the pseudo regeneration field),
The second shot from River sets the Teselecta into recovery mode and the crew recovers. Then they or the metal jellyfish things shocks the Dr back to life!
By that time the Teselecta is on a barge being burned, that's why he said he was slightly singed when escaping...
Hmm... have i put too much thought into it yet...?? lol
What happens in an alternative time line stays in an alternative timeline?
Imagine the Bachelor parties.
I'd have to watch again, it wasn't 100 percent clear (to me) which way and when the robot suit was working and when it wasn't.
I see there's already been some passionate discussion around that subject, so I'll stay out if it 'til I've watched again..
I can see it already potentially causing misunderstandings.
I use asterisks as a substitute. I have always used it on occasion for emphasis (wrongly) and so far it seems at least to be understood as a substitution.
seems like a return to form that I will greatly appreciate. In the old series he was dodging those time lord bastards and trying to keep a low profile...
It's a nice way to keep The Doctor reigned in now that the Timelords are gone IMO
Isn't the next series being split into two parts like this one?
If so, and as we know that it doesn't kick off until after the 2012 Olympics, then perhaps I wasn't too far off.
Either way, I'd like to know what you thought about what I wrote rather than what number season 2013 is; it's just gone midnight where I am.
How DO you manage to use quotes? I noticed you using them before and I assumed that maybe the quotes bug was browser-specific. I've now tried IE (shudder), Chrome, Opera and yes even Safari for PC. Still cannot use quotes without truncating my posts.
What is your secret?
What a great way to end the series.
From the bombast of bringing all kinds of cool into the alternate timeline, to a great deal of emotion and a nicely wrapped conclusion that's clever and propels the story in a new direction, whilst laying seeds for a larger part of the puzzle. I have absolute faith in what Moff is doing with his run and I agree with the comment that the entire Matt Smith era will play out like a novel. I also agree with the idea that it's one of the few shows on television that can handle complex story ideas with emotion, action, genre and comedy. In every episode. The principals this year have been outstanding and Moff genuinely wants you to care for these characters and manages to weave a story that goes backwards and forward through time both across episodes and seasons.
I find it genuinely thrilling to behold and I'm happy to accept the answers I'm given. There are somethings that dramatically still need to be explained and some things that don't. Do I know how the tessellecter managed to look look like it produced regeneration energy? No. Can I accept that it did - That it would be necessary to produce the lie of the doctor's death? Yes. The tantalising distress call to his past and future - The oldest question of who he is can be read on lots of levels. I love that it doesn't do what I predict, but that I get what they've some up with. Loved it.
Can't wait for more and damn the crawl to christmas awaits.
Ever get hold of Smith after he's finished his run on the series, then the period between him leaving Amy and Rory and Closing Time, would be a great way to introduce some new adventures.
I'm presuming that he does have quite a few missing years to play with.
The plot doesn't make sense without the Doctor actually dying the first time through this loop of time. It is very easy for The Moff to simply state that what we saw in the first episode was the first time through the time loop and therefore what we saw really was the Doctor being killed.
The observed death of the Doctor was the fixed point in time, it had to happen. Using the teselecta is how the Doctor was able to change that fixed point in time from being the actual death of the Doctor (as seen in episode 1) into the observed (but not real) death of the Doctor. That doesn't mean that what happened in episode 1 was a lie, in fact everything else that happened including how the Doctor escaped his death only works if what we saw in that first episode was 100% true.
What about River now?
Are we going to get a couple more episodes of romance with the Doc, in order to finish her own story? As much as she has been a major player in the last couple of seasons, just how far does the Moff want to take it? I hope that the next season does have her last meeting with him from his own timeline in which he realises that he has to give her his own Sonic Screwdriver. A sad ending, yes, but I hope he doesnt do a "timey wimey" solution to get her to live longer.
Next morning, after we had awakened one another, we sat together a while to discourse what might yet be the event of things. For some were of opinion what they should all be enlivened again together. Others contradicted it, because the decease of the ancients was not only to restore life, but increase too to the young ones. Some imagined that they were not put to death, but that others were beheaded in their stead.
how anyone feels the season finale is anything less than a very good and satisfying conclusion. I thought it was brilliant. I guess people will always find something to whine about. Great acting, low on the camp, big emotional payoffs, and most of all it all made sense within the logic of the show without some contrived plot device guaranteed to disappoint.
For people complaining about how things were resolved, how the hell is it not 1000 times better than almost every RTD finale (episode)? Seriously? Maybe Amy should have used her typing skills on a Silence control panel thus causing the destruction of the Silence race.
Stop taking Moffatt era genius for granted.
to help those that have missed the point...in the very first episode of the season, the Doctor that died on the beach was a teselecta. We just discovered that fact in ep 13. The Doctor didn't "change" history. The teselecta was always going to be the entity that "died."
As for how they "faked" the regeneration...I mean the thing can pretend to be any entity it wants so I'm sure it can manage a flashy light show for a couple of seconds to fool the Silence.
I can understand people wanting different, but people thinking it is no good? Well, I can understand it might not be some people's taste (in theory) but I can't even think along those lines with this one.
i originally had a whole big post with a counter-argument, but it seems to have gone! I'm sorry - it's late and i might post again tomorrow! in short - it was always the Teselecta Doc - and it makes more sense than the other way.
It seems to me that the grand moff has very subtly (un)done the two things that RTD's detractors constantly moaned about during the his tenure at the helm.
At the end of series 5 the big re-boot of the universe meant that not everyone and their grandmother on planet earth knows about alien invasions, dalecks, cybermen etc. (Though part of me hopes there is an old lady in Cardiff saying 'bloody Torchwood!' everytime something strange happens).
Now at the end of Series 6 he has the rest of the universe convinced that the Doctor is dead therefore we can go back to nobody knowing who he is when he arrives at their gaff. No more reverrential hush and fawning from whole societies of people (human or non human) no more godlike worship.
Thank you Mr Moffat for this. The universe has been nicely reset back to the point where stories can be told that involve the doctor has to rely on his wits and intelligence to solve problems/save the day rather than waiting for every one on the planet to text his name smultaniously whilst staring at pics of him they find on google and holding hands and singing his name.
I've been saying since 'Let's kill Hitler' that the question would be 'doctor who?' and so many people doubted it.
I quite liked the episode, even if it felt a bit small scale for a finale
and the reference to the Brig was great!
I thought was was a very smart solution. The Doctor had to die; or at least the Doctor had to appear to die in such a way that the recorded chronology still worked. If Amy, Rory et al hadn't burnt the body he could have done it more easily - but River knew it had to be burnt so that The Silence would fall for the switch, especially as she knew what was going to happen. River and the Doctor both lie! - they were watching the entire time remember, only after the funeral was complete did they stop I suspect. In a sense it's a bit like Blink but played over a much longer period - the loop is internally consistent to this point, although there are a few more threads to tie in - probably next season.
Also: Jack's stag parties.... the mind boggles! Even Miracle Day wouldn't show that much debauchery!
Okay, so Amy and Rory remember the alternate *timeline* in which time didn't flow... Specifically, Amy remembers killing Kavorian...
But this happened on the day that the Doctor was *killed* -
So Amy and Rory should have had this memory back in The Impossible Astronaut on the day the doctor died - back when Amy was a Ganger and didn't know it. So wouldn't she recognize Kavorian looking at her through the window?
Time loops are never static. They are always evolving. Most of the past events our characters remember NEVER HAPPENED. The entire 2010 season was pretty much wiped out by the Doctor rebooting the universe.
And so, perhaps originally the Doctor DID die. And he knew he was going to die. The invitation he sent to himself in the past altered the timeline, allowing him to fake his own death.
My head hurts.
Maldavor was great to.
I couldn't believe with that huge diamond crystal thing at the top of the pyramid that that didn't end up being River's wedding ring, as soon as I saw it I was sure that's where they were going with that.
I watched the special features today, didn't realize until the interview that the King of Peladon was Patrick Troughtons son in real life, and is the same guy who played the professor in 'Midnight'
Katy manning goes on and on about what a crush she had on him
That isn't my interpretation at all, but you might be right. Who knows. Wibbly Wobbly timey wimey.
I thought that Amy and Rory at the end were the Amy and Rory who just got given the new house by the doctor at the end of The God Complex.
Okay so the future Doctor even sends one to a past version of himself. So presumably, the original 'loop' of the time between the age he was when he received the invitation, and the time he sent them 200 years later, he did other things, ORIGINALLY. so didn't the doctor alter his own past by sending that invitation to himself? (whether he literally delivered it himself, or had the telselecta do it) but then, that doesn't add up either.
They clearly show the Doctor and River reverting to the point where they were at by Lake Silencio, at the point Time stopped.
Now, how exactly did the Teselecta manage to show up undetected and replace the Doctor after they end up in the regular universe again? There's NO TIME for the Doctor to have been able to go visit the Teselecta and recruit them to take his place. It HAD to occur at the time we saw the Doctor visit the Teselecta - BEFORE he was supposedly killed. It was the Teselecta the first time around.
rebel scumb has to be right about amy and rory finding out after Good Complex. Why? Because River admitted at the end that she pretending not to know what was going on with the space suit. So she knew how everything was going to play out all along.
Also, given that the "death" was a fixed point in time, Amy would only remember it at the fixed point in her own time stream. Which she impliedly references when she told River she couldn't go back to a time during the season when the doctor was "alive."
I don't know if it was the same for you as it was for me, but I knew when I saw the 'previously on...' montage, and they made a point to mention what the teselecta was.
Its ended up spoiling a lot of surprises on tv for me but I've become very conscious what gets mentioned in the 'previously on...' for shows. They always want to make the audience feel like they have all the puzzle pieces they need for the episode going into it.
I remembered it happened a lot on Lost, where in the 'previously on Lost' if you saw a certain guest star in the previously on clip, then you knew they would be in that episode. Infact I think on a lot of shows, in the US anyways they contractually have to pay the actor and give them a guest star credit to show an actor even if they appear only in the 'previously on' footage, so unless they really need to show them they won't.
Anyways, that might be why you figured it out, even if you just perceived it on a subconcious level
the fall of the 11th.
Does anyone else feel that matt smith will be regenerating into Dr.12 in the 50th anniversary?
Seems like introducing a new doctor would be one way to ring in the big 50th with a bang
It was my understanding that the Tennant/Smith regeneration damaging the TARDIS was because Tennant had been holding the energy in for so long while he went around to say his goodbyes. When he finally couldn't hang on any longer ("I don't want to go!"), he had been hanging on to the energy so tightly that it all blew out at once, trashing the TARDIS control room.
The Eccleston/Tennant regeneration happened soon after his "death", so it wasn't as explosive.
That would be a great (and very very sad) way to ring in the 50th with a bang. An even bigger bang would be if they ring it in with a Cumberbatch.
But I REALLY do not look forward to losing Matt Smith.
Episode 1. The Doctor (perhaps for the stated reason of not wanting to die alone) invites Amy, Rory, River Song, and Canton to his own death. None of that backstory is part of the fixed point in time so the how and why of those events are unknown to us. They certainly may not have happened the way they did in the episode we saw today. For that matter, the whole Time Stopped part of the story may not have happened in episode 1 since that was the creation of the fixed point in time so there was no reason for time to get broken. Time Stopped is the result of River trying to change time incorrectly, that wouldn't happen in Episode 1 since that is where the time was created.
Assuming time only had to loop once (and that certainly isn't a requirement when a Time Lord is involved) I think the events look like this
1) Amy and everyone else are invited by the Doctor to meet at the lake.
2) River Song in the space suit comes out of the water. What is said at that point was not shown to us and I don't think it matches the dialogue we saw in today's episode. Since River Song wasn't going to remember what was said ("you won't even remember this"), it wasn't part of the fixed event.
3) The Doctor (the real one) is killed by the suit.
4) The rest of the season continues as we saw it. Along the way, the Doctor finds out about his impending death.
5) The Doctor comes up with the bright idea of using the Teselecta to escape his death in today's episode. The events of episode 1 happen again but this time with the Teselecta. The dialogue from The Doctor is interesting here as he clearly knows that this has already happened before and is expecting it to happen again.
6) River Song tries her own way of saving The Doctor which doesn't work out.
7) The fixed point in time from Episode 1 plays out exactly as Amy, Rory, River, and Canton saw it the first time around and as far as they know everything happens exactly as it did the first time through the loop
**end of loop**
Amy and Rory find out from River that The Doctor is actually still alive after the events of the season that they were involved in were over. The loop was over at that point so it was safe for them to know this.
The timey whimey part of this is that the everything not part of the fixed point in time is flexible. The first time through it was The Doctor, the second time through it was the Teselecta.
Much better than last week, and I felt it held up better than THE BIG BANG finale last season (I was bugged by the big cheat of him escaping from the Pandorica via paradox, along with a number of other niggling problems when I first watched that episode). The Brigadier part was definitely a highlight - I was waiting for Nicolas Courtney to get an IN MEMORY OF shot in an episode, as they did for Barry Letts and Elisabeth Sladen, but this was very moving. The Doctor calling up his old friend, and being forced to face his mortality after realizing he died was beautifully acted by Matt Smith and brought back how I felt when I learned Mr Courtney had died.
Moff, MOV, whoever you are, Shabash!
To explain it, all of it, tie it all up in such a perfect little parcel, leaving no loose ends, nothing hanging but still foreshadowing .... I am astonished and amazed and so, so happy.
Being who we are of course there will be questions and niggles and freeze frames and so on. But really they're about what's next.
That - *THAT* - was payoff. That is how a show is run. That was why we are all here, and what we all, always wanted.
I shall not doubt again.
The Library Sonic.
River Song naked.
And if no one will mind too much speaking as an older gentleman I must say ... Alex Kingston is just heart-breakingly lovely. So happy we'll be seeing so much more of her.
If they seriously went with Tony Curran (van Gogh)... I'd be overjoyed. Fantastic actor. He was perfect as the King in *Pillars of the Earth*. And I noticed him a couple of weeks ago in a film about a plane that crashed in a desert and they had to re-build the plane? Cannot recall the name of that one. But he was great in it.
I think casting him as The Doctor would be a smart choice. Just as long as they don't give him a ginger fro and have him stand around a lot and look down his nose at everyone he comes in contact with. (classic Who zing)
They have yet to resolve how Amy found pictures of herself with a child in the orphanage in TIA (or DOTM, I forget which one it was).
However, based on what we now know of the Silence, does it make sense that they blew up the TARDIS last season? Was ending the universe their goal? Or did they not think through the consequences of what they were doing, as the Alliance did? I'll have to rewatch this episode again to see if it makes sense.
I never heard that it was because Tennant was trying to hold onto the regeneration energy so hard that when he let go it caused the damage.
The thing is, though, the amount of regeneration energy should be the same whether he's trying to bottle it up or not, so it shouldn't matter. Either when he was doing his victory lap he was causing temporal paradox problems (and there was some extra temporal energy from a Blinovitch effect-esque happening) or something else helped introduce more energy.
Look on last week's doc back. I said the question would be Doctor Who? Who called it? Yep I was right.
Why did I guess it? Simply because he's been repeating it overly since Series 5. Yet no one knows the answer to the question. Silence will fall when the question is asked, Doctor Who? ***everyone shrugs***. Mark me down for a return of the Master next season.
Some questions for anyone who cares to answer them:
1) How could the teselecta "Doctor" show signs of regenerating?
2) If the Doctor doesn't truly die, how does time move forward? In other words, the fixed point requires that the Doctor dies, but was "time" fooled?!?
3) 700+ year-old Doctor- How did the teselecta give him the invitation to Lake Silence? When did 900+ year-old Doctor actually hatch this plan with the teselecta (in relation to 2011 and the showdown at Lake Silence)?
I agree, Smith has been great, but that would be 4 years for him which is a good run, up there with Pertwee and Tennant.
I think all 3 'new era' doctors have been great in their own way, hopefully whoever plays 12 is equally amazing.
he's actually one of my top pics to be a new Doctor, he's almost old enough now that I think he would fit the role well, and they could pay off the 'ginger' joke Tennant/RTD set up waaay back at the end of series 1.
They could tie it in with Amy as well, something cheesy like Smith plucking a hair off of Amy's head right before he regenerates to absorb the ginger dna.
Just end the season with him seeing his hair, then raising his hands in triumph and exclaiming: 'GINGER!!!' then the theme song kicks in and end credits
I just watched it again while it played on BBCA. There's a huge problem with what you're saying.
At the wedding in the parallel universe, the Doctor tells River to look him in the eye. She sees the little Doctor inside the Teselecta. That means it was the Teselecta all along in the Time All At Once World, which means the Doctor was in it before time collapsed. He got in it when he mentioned the one more thing to the captain of the Teselecta.
(Yes, I was wrong before when I said the Teselecta wasn't in the other universe - I had misremembered River looking into his eye as while she's in the spacesuit.)
The problem you're forgetting is that, for the older Doctor in episode 1, he has ALREADY visited the Teselecta and gotten their help. They were the ones to distribute the envelopes. He was in the Teselecta in the other universe - River looked into his eye and saw the tiny him in the robot. There was no time at all for him to have gone back to get the Teselecta in the All Time At Once universe. There was no time for the Doctor to have gone back to get the Teselecta. He had to have already had it at that point.
When the Doctor/Teselecta and River touch, it resets back to the normal universe...at the point where River is shooting the Doctor. Again, no point for the Doctor to have gone back and gotten the Teselecta. Therefore, the Teselecta ALWAYS had to have been there.
There's only one time through the whole loop. The Doctor only experiences the events once (the younger Doctor wasn't there at the time - he was at the restaurant). So, everything you see the Doctor do was what he does the first time. He gets the Teselecta. It's what was there in episode 1, you just didn't know it yet.
He knew he got the envelope to be there, so when he sent the messages he knew he had to send the message to his younger self in order to preserve the timeline, not to alter it.
It's similar to him sending the messages to the young Amelia after Amelia shows him the messages - he knew she got them so he knows he has to send her those messages in order to preserve what happened.
So the fixed point in time was always based on the "death" of a robot vehicle. Did the teselecta really die? Did all of its crew perish? Over 400 or so people? If no one ever really died in the first place, why would "time" give a damn? Because everyone "believed" it happened, time went off the rails once that belief was destroyed? Pterodactyls ensue?
Wish it had been a two parter, there is so much creativity in his writing that I'd like more, the entire chess match could have had more to it, I loved those scenes, Matt Smith is on top form here.
Exciting stuff, and as always the seeds are laid for us to all jump to the wrong conclusions next year. 8)
Makes as much sense as anything else on the show, and no I don't think any of the 400 crew got hurt, since the doctor mentioned not even getting singed.
A fixed point doesn't have to be a death, simply an event or events which cannot be altered
But I am looking forward to a hopeful return to more one off episodes and a less manic pacing next year.
Closing time, and the Flesh 2 parter were the only ones that seemed properly paced to me this year.
Everybody's happy for guessing that the question is Doctor Who?
Nobody's been asking why this would be the first question in the universe. As has been mentioned, maybe there's going to be a callout to Silver Nemesis and the Cartmel Master Plan.
I guess my feeling, and from past mentions of "fixed points" in series' past is that they are of the utmost importance in the universe. What is so important about a teselecta being shot on a remote lake in Utah? That the universe believed the Doctor died? But the doctor exists in all parts of space and time. Who would know for sure that he's really dead? Faking his own death only affects those closest to him, and they are all now aware that he didn't really die. And time began to disintegrate over this? It seems a bit oversold to me.
2) The fixed point required that River apparently kill the Doctor. The fixed point was her shooting the body in front of her. It was the Teselecta all along, so the fixed point wasn't actually killing the Doctor, just that it looked like he died. The events as we saw them at the end were what had been fixed.
1) It can simulate energy outputs. It could have been as simple as venting the excess methane from the robot ship's waste processing facilities and lighting them on fire, or just projecting a light show. It was a change in its perception filter.
3) The older Doctor would know where the younger Doctor had been, so would know where the Teselecta would need to go in order to deliver the letter. The 900+ year old Doctor hatched the plan after Closing Time, when he went to find the crew of the Teselecta to have them deliver the letters. It was always the Teselecta at Lake Silencio (which means the 1103 year old Doctor's TARDIS was always inside the Teselecta).
were what played out in the series premiere, that the Doctor never really died. But my point is why would that event be a fixed point to begin with?
Don't get me wrong, I do not think this was a bad episode, I connected with the show emotionally. I just sense a breakdown in logic at points, and sadly, an overselling of the importance of things. In order for this "belief that the Doctor is dead" to play out, there must be some truly vital consequences coming from this moment. I hope this "fixed point" is justified in later episodes. But what I'd really prefer is that the show become less obsessed with series-long story arcs and get back to some vignettes.
I also enjoyed it more on the second viewing, and I already enjoyed it a lot on the first viewing.
The second time around I was much more amused by Dorium's asking the Doctor to be frank and tell him the extent of his injuries.
Yes, I still want Dorium to be a recurring character. If not as a TARDIS companion, maybe the Doctor could drop him off at Rory and Amy's house and ask them to keep an eye on him...
Well, River DID ask Amy if she thought things could be that simple when Amy guessed that River and the Doctor were married. And it's not - most places don't accept marriage licenses from alternate timelines.
Then again, the marriage was really just performed by the Doctor, River and the Ponds, and since they remember all of it it would count as a marriage from their standpoint.
So in regards to my question about altering his own past, it's also similar to how they treated time travel in LOST. That the timeline only really happened once, and it was like his consciousness jumping around.<br>
actually, wait, no, the more I think about it, it's more the "wibbly wobbly" explanation again. The same reasoning they used for the special little comic relief episode a few years back with Tennant where 2 doctors were in the Tardis at once.<br>
and as much as I'm really enjoying Smith as the doctor, I sooooooooooo love the idea of Rupert Grint taking over the role in the near future.
The Doctor did die though, at least the vainglorious Doctor who was so famous that armies would flee at the mention of his name, one that had no problems turning is friends and companions into weapons and one whose name became synonymous with Great Warrior.
We have a Doctor that's much more humble about that stuff now, one that wants to stay in the shadows, one that's turned away from violence (as the song informs us).
Just throwing River's consoling comment to Amy re: Kovarian back in River's face. I'm just sad to see Winston Churchill's Empire come to an end. Of all of the leaders in time to settle in as Caesar, it was that man who pulled it off! Eat your heart out, Henry V!
So if you mess with a fixed point in time, then time starts to disintegrate. Okay then, does that mean in Torchwood Miracle Day, if Captain Jack died while he was a mere mortal, the same thing would have happened?
So, the Doctor had to fake his death to stop being such a cosmic bastard. That's the fixed point... I hope there's more to it than that, to be honest. When most folks have an epiphany about their life, it's based on something real. Here, the Doctor had to "outsmart" his closest allies and enemies by faking his death for a day. And now, he accepts the fact that he has to stop being so obviously awesome.
In lieu of a storyline holding any water, I demand Moffat give us back k-9 for an episode.
the events only play out once (barring the side hiccup into the other timestream where everything was screwed up). No nukes went off in the making of this series of predestined steps (unlike Lost). Since the young Doctor got an envelope, someone HAD to send him the envelope, and it turned out it was because of the older Doctor. He gets the envelope because he always will send himself the envelope.
The Time Crash comparison is a good one, though, especially since that was also written by Moffat. The older Doctor remembers what the younger Doctor went through, so he knows what has to be done when he becomes the older Doctor (at least from the standpoint of sending out the invitations).
It does raise one question though, which might also indicate how long the Doctor knew some of the things that were going on. The Doctor wrote the messages for everyone on the blue paper, including the message for the younger Doctor. Wouldn't the younger Doctor have recognized his own handwriting? Did he already suspect what was actually happening at that point? (We've made it through a whole season, and I can't believe none of us thought to ask that until now.)
besides, we're allowed to pretend that Miracle Day doesn't happen. For all we know Jack's been stuck inside one of those virtual reality things since we saw him after Last of the Time Lords - the VR setups we saw in The God Complex - and everything that's happened to him since then has just been a VR simulation. (Oh, if we could only make Miracle Day go away that easily...)
After demon's run, the show seemed to lose all focus. Amy's choice was the only good episode and even that seemed incredibly disjointed from the main plot. I suppose closing time wasn't too terrible, except for the end (seriously?) There was just no sense of continuity.. and finish much like LOST...
Season 7 I guess. :( However if it's going to be more like 6.2, I think I might stay away for awhile.
I am saying that in episode 1 there was no parallel universe, no wedding, and River didn't look into The Doctor's eye to see that he was inside the Teselecta. None of those events are needed for this year's series to happen as we originally experienced it. Furthermore, we don't know who distributed the envelopes in episode 1. That isn't part of the fixed point so all we really know is that the envelopes were delivered. In today's episode the Doctor was in the Teselectra (or at least A teselectra ship) the entire time. Before River comes out of the water in the suit, during the parallel universe, and after. However, there is nothing about that statement that means that in episode 1 the old Doctor who is killed even knows what a Teselectra even is. I am not claiming that he didn't, I am just claiming that within episode 1 we can only know for sure what we actually saw and what we saw was the Doctor getting killed. The Moff can claim anything he wants to about episode 1 including that it wasn't really The Doctor, it was The Master in a Doctor costume and the space suit actually contained Marlon Brando. None of that would affect today's episode. That is pretty much the entire point of today's episode, the fixed point in time is really about the perception of what happened not what actually happened. You can make up any story you want about what actualy happened in episode 1 and as long as you match what we actually saw then that might be what happened then. The only person who can do that with authority though is The Moff and he says that in episode one The Doctor really did die.
I disagree that the show lost all focus after Demon's Run. We had all the stuff showing backstory with Melody that tied in with the focus - the two main things this year were the Death of the Doctor and Who Is River Song?.
Demon's run also set up the idea of the Doctor becoming something he shouldn't, and that he would need to turn away from violence in order to get off the path he's been on. The Girl Who Waited made him realize the cost of the path he had been on, when he saw Rory's reaction. He set things up so that at the end of The God Complex he could drop off Rory and Amy so that they'd stop being his weapons and could go on to live their lives. He's saddled with all the regrets about how his life has gone and what he's done with people. That focus is still there in Closing Time, where the Doctor is still full of remorse and going around giving his final farewells. This leads into the final episode. The focus has always been there.
Everything was brilliant until the final resolution. You'd think that what would make a fixed point a fixed point is that something HAS to happen to a certain person. If the Doctor can escape and repair the timeline by having a robot be his body double, THEN HOW IS THAT A FIXED POINT.
That's like saying in Water of Mars, if the mom of the future person that started human space travel decided to put a giant straw puppet of herself in the mars explosion, then sauntered off away to do whatever she wanted for the rest of her life. No matter how much she PRETENDS to be dead, she's still going to leave ripples in time that resulted from her being alive after her supposed death. And if her daughter finds out her mom's still alive? That's definitely going to cause problems with the timeline.
And that's especially true with the Doctor, because you know he's going to do ridiculously huge stuff that'll effect the timeline somehow.
This basically means that no matter what, having the Doctor stay alive beyond his own fixed point of death doesn't jive with everything we've learned about fixed points--both from Father's Day, and Water of Mars, and probably a bunch of other episodes that I can't remember.
And I STILL can't get over the fact that raising Melody/River to kill the Doctor was a terrible idea. Why go through all that effort when you can kidnap Amy and have a Silence alien place a post-hypnotic suggestion to have her kill the Doctor? This entire plan by Kovarian was just ridiculous and overly convoluted, like some awful Bond villain.
Bah, humbug. Everything was so perfect until that stupid resolution. Bah.
It doesn't matter if we don't have the parallel universe in Episode 1. It also doesn't matter if River had looked into the Doctor's eye at that point or not; the point there is that the Doctor is inside the Teselecta already! THAT'S what matters at that point. He set things up so that he was in the Teselecta when he was shot. There is no first time and second time on his being shot. There is just when he is shot (seen in the first episode, and after the universe came back in the last episode).
We KNOW that he was in the Teselecta in Episode 1 after having the hindsight of seeing all the episode. We see that the older Doctor, prior to arriving back at 2011, got into the Teselecta. We know that because there is NO other time for him to have gotten into the Teselecta. He HAD to have gotten in there beforehand for him to have been in there when River tried to change things, he CONTINUED to be in there in the divergent timestream, and CONTINUED to be in there when the divergent timestream reverted back to the regular timestream.
Just because we weren't told he was in the Teselecta in Episode 1 (we didn't even know of the EXISTENCE of the Teselecta in Episode 1) doesn't mean that it didn't happen that way. It only means we weren't given all the information. All we know at episode 1 is we saw something that looked like the Doctor getting killed. We are given all the information by the end of today's show, however, to know what happened. He was in the Teselecta.
The problem is that you are still claiming that in Episode 1 there's nothing there that means that the Doctor knew about the Teselecta BUT, in order to say that he didn't, you have to demonstrate how the Teselecta DID get there, and there's no way to do that convincingly without it having been the Teselecta there all along. Otherwise, you have to come up with completely spurious arguments that will explain how it all happened.
And, as a matter of fact we DO know that the Doctor knew about the Teselecta because, from the 1103 year old Doctor's point of view, he had ALREADY interacted with the Teselecta. Twice. You're making the fundamental mistake of assuming that just because episode 1 was the first episode of the season, that none of the knowledge of subsequent epsiodes could be known by anyone in that first episode. Since the older Doctor had already experienced every episode we had watched in the season, though, that's a faulty assumption.
Doctor Who hasn't been a 'kid's show' for aeons. There's a difference between a kid's show and a family show. Your comments are designed just to troll. You should read the DocBack code of conduct again, particularly point 3, before you get banned.
If the Doctor being shot was always the tessalectra, what exactly were the contributing conflictions that caused the paradoxical alternate universe this episode takes place from? Where is the divergent influence?
....some of which I could not possibly respond to!!!!
Darthdevious- it was no bother my friend! For your first crack at Who I found it completely enjoyable as I have stated. I wouldn't know where to start!!!
Well, yes I would. A steamy scene in Amy Ponds knickers.... yummy!!!
Doctom- thanks. Each of us have had our moans and groans about this year, but thinking about it- how could it have turned out any other way????
And with that- it leads me into the title of my next post and my thoughts on TWORS.
At the fixed point, River always shot the 'Doctor'. By her not shooting the Doctor, she made the divergent timeline and started time collapsing. When they collapsed the alternative timeline and got back to the original, River shooting made sure events went through as they should have.
After coming back, though, River had the information that it was actually the Teselecta so knew the Doctor would still live through it, so she didn't fight it any more.
for some reason I could also see him with a translucent green 'visor' instead of having a full hat.
I think a country club jacket and pants, with something inappropriate like Doc Martins boots might be called for.
Oh, gotilk, your turn again on the Closing Time thread now. I've made my contribution to help the cause.
Sorry about disagreeing. And I haven't given this marvellous puzzle-box of an episode more than one watch yet. But I think you're missing some obvious things.
We saw several different universes in this episode. In the final one the Doc was in the Tesselecta. There was another one where River didn't kill the Doc and time stopped. And there was the original one where the Doc was definitely killed. In fact there may have been two or more of those ...
Nothing suggests the Doc in the Tesselecta was what we saw in TIA. And we have some very good evidence that it was not. Because, this time, the Doc never apologised to Amy. He never told River, ~It's okay, I know it's you~. He said different things about the bottle of wine, and I think he didn't spit it out.
So I think you're barking up a tree that isn't there any more. The Doc died. The Doc didn't die - but time stopped. The Doc died. Then the Doc didn't die.
Plus ... I will bet a toblerone there's still a gangerdoc running through all of this even despite TWORS.
I think you're probably about 50 posts from last now in the Closing Time thread. You need to get over there again to get another Last in. And maybe a few more to get it to 1500.
709 posts on this one so far, we're in good shape with this one being able to go on for a while.
To paraphrase the one and only v'shael- "most have a tendency to overthink things and overcomplicate plot points."
How true that is.
Mos of the time we can't really see what is hidden in plain sight, or we choose to ignore what is so obvious to us all that when it hits it becomes anti-climatical, as NOTHING can match the fevered musings of our own ideas.
In my humble opinion, The Wedding of River Song was a culmination of 13 episodes, and an ending which let's face it, couldn't have happened any other way.
The answers were there, we just shrouded them in a mystery of our own device. Then, as it all unfolds before us we cry WHAT??? Something THAT obvious???? NO FAIR!!!! But with the obvious came some beautiful touches that I for one didn't expect.
Time bled together. We said that it would happen and it did. It bled together in a glorious effect- a mash barrel of prehistoric, futurisitic goodness that must have worried the holders of the purse strings at the BBC. Trains through Canary Wharf, cars strapped to hot air balloons, pterodactyls soaring through the air, sumptuous sets and decor fusing ancient and modern.
The eye patches allowed members of the order of the silence to see the silents. We knew they would. What we didn't know is how canny a device they were, and how brutal they could be when used by a vengeful Amy Pond.
There were two Doctors. We guessed there would be. What we didn't guess was hidden in plain sight, and I can't for the life of me remember one post that stated the Doctor who died was actually the tesselecta. We all saw it change into Amy Pond and River Song, so why NOT the doc??? A brilliant touch when we were diverted by theories of the flesh.
River killed the Doc. A fixed point in time. An inevitability we said. Only one thing- Moff told us at the very beginning Time Can Be Re-written. And we saw the results when she drained her weapons energies. We all saw her shoot the Doc in TIA. What we didn't see was the chase that followed in order to reset the balance of things, culminating in the wedding ontop of area 52, and loves kiss back to what seemed certain death.
Ahhhhh...twist upon twist upon twist.
And finally, the question. Dr Who????? We threw it out there so many times and dismissed it time and time again. Kudos goes out to all those who stuck by it and insisted it was right. In the end, what other question could it have been??
My point through all of this? Yes, most things were obvious and some have reacted negatively to it- hey!! That's their right and who's to stop 'em?? Certainly not me!!! But within it all lies an episode I have likened to a heart pumping the blood of the mythos through 13 separate arteries. It has bound most of it together and managed to throw us more curve balls whilst delivering things we already knew.
Smith is the Doctor. He wears the role superbly and I can't wait to see what he gives us next year.
As for the Moff, he has dared to be different. To take Who in a direction I for one certainly thought we wouldn't go.
And he aint done 'alf a bad job.
SJW well and truly out.
Why are you so fixated on how the Teselecta got there? The Doctor asked the Captain for it, flew it to America in the TARDIS, at some point before meeting Amy and Rory he flew the TARDIS into the Teselecta and then piloted to meeting Amy and Rory and then didn't leave it until it was but on the fire to burn.
Those are the events of today's episode and I don't dispute any of it. I am just saying that doesn't mean that in episode one it was the Teselecta that was shot. It comes down to if The Moff was lying or not. If he wasn't lying then it wasn't the Teselecta that we saw getting shot in episode one, it really was The Doctor.
You say, "You're making the fundamental mistake of assuming that just because episode 1 was the first episode of the season, that none of the knowledge of subsequent epsiodes could be known by anyone in that first episode."
I am saying that you are making the fundamental mistake of assuming that any of the subsequent episodes are needed for episode one to happen as it did.
Lets say that you are a time traveler and I tell you that two days ago I saw you destroy your favorite shirt. You know that this event hasn't happened yet so it must be in the future. You don't want to lose your favorite shirt so what you do is you take that shirt and put it away in a safe. You also get an identical shirt and start wearing that instead. At some point in the future you meet me again in the past and you destroy the shirt and I observe this as you destroying your favorite shirt. The question is, the first time I saw you destroying the shirt was that the real shirt or the identical shirt?
It really couldn't be as complex as what a lot of us were building it up to be. Yes, there might have been other ways to do it (gangers, for example), but the Teselecta was much more elegant for this (not to mention giving us hope that we'll get to see it again in the future).
Moffat was a genius in both meeting our expectations and at exceeding them by subverting them. Yes, we saw a lot of the ingredients as being obvious things that would be there. What we didn't see, though, was how he was going to mix the ingredients together and give us this wonderful concoction at the end.
Sorry all, but a little underwhelmed at that for a season finale. Not so much the quality of the tie-up, more that I think the whole season-arc thing is spent for me now.
Gld they stayed away from the whole RTD 'everyone and thekitchen sink' approach, though (even while including a Dalek!)
I'm liking the idea of some quality one and two parters for next year. Perhaps with more big name guest writers? I still think Gaiman's episode was a standout, though 'The Girl Who Waited' was the best one for me - no question.
More old-skool monsters next time please, Mr. Moffat. Let's have the Zygons back. The Sea Devils - and a Krynoid episode would REALLY give today's kids the creeps, since none of 'em spend much time playing outside anymore!
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/50968 - the post titled ~@MOV On Annoyances~
It was my point 2.
As it turns out I also hit with points 5 and 9.
And, I suspect, with point 1 as well.
Not that I'm proud because that's still just a 50% crystal ball.
Silence DID fall when the Pandorica opened - watch the end of The Pandorica Opens again, even the ending music gets swallowed up by the Silence.
He's mentioned the Silence in season 5 and thwarted one of their plans, then thwarted another in season 6 while we get more background on the Silence (and the creatures running it). He's left the Fall of the 11th and who actually askes the Question at Trenzalore (or whatever it's called) as something that will happen in the future, and he has now established that the Silence are trying to avoid what's going to happen there in the future. He's building on what he's had before, and things that have happened earlier start getting paid off. Some things are paid off in one season, some take longer. How many years since the introduction of River Song did it take to find out her backstory?
There were a couple of us who mentioned the Teselecta earlier, but quite frankly we were all more focused on gangers to be able to claim that as a good prediction.
The prediction that I madethat I'm happy about was predicting Dorium's head being in the box that the Doctor was carrying in the teaser image that was put out (before the teaser video came out a day or two ago, I finally saw the scene last night and was glad I had called it)
On these things we're probably better claiming victories on the small things since we had been all over the map on the large things.
I've been observing the mixed reactions on a number of sites and it does surprise me just how this show can bring out the best and worst in people...
Hey everyone's entitled to their opinions, where's the fun in not having a rant, I just find it quite amusing that after months of tearing something apart, trying to hypothesise and second guess the Hoff just how outraged people can become if it wasn't quite how they expected it to be.
It was fun, it's a tv show, it was in the end a relatively simple explanation, it's answered some questions and posed some new ones. It's done what RTD never managed to do and create a new enemy that is up there with the classic Who villains, that has freshened up the perspective of the show - look how we mostly took issue with the way the Cybermen were treated last week.
I don't want to get all preachy, because mostly I have no right to - you all have a right to be angry, feel let down, say you'll never watch again, if you want to - I can't help but think that ol' Bill Shatner had a point when he said that famous line...
Being the show runner for Dr Who really must be one of the hardest jobs in the world in terms of getting the approval of a certain type of Who fan. I'm sure Moff and RTD were oblivious to a lot of the negative stuff, they were catering to the less hardcore, mainstream family audience after all. But I commend the Moff for taking a genuine risk at trying to create a season that would appeal to the hardcore and mainstream fan and in my opinion doing a great and entertaining job.
Sorry if you didn't enjoy it, maybe you should not try and create the show in your image and try and enjoy the show in whose image it's made. Sure sound off if you want to, but it is only a tv show... it's just a ride...
I said that is was a good to great kids show. There is nothing wrong with being a kids show.
It's just that sometimes we can love something so much, that the love we feel for something starts to work against it.
I'll give an example. I started watching this show because of all the praise it gets.People would say it was the best show on televison and the best sci-fi show without even hesitating. So I started watching it.
I hated every minute of it. Look no further than my past post if you want proof. But then something clicked. I just started watching the show for what it was (a good to great kids show) instead of what everyone said it was.
I watched shows I had saved on my DVR all over again and they were great as well. It's amazing how good something can become when it's freed from the false hype and the expectations of a fanbase that it could never meet or was never built to meet.
I know that Merrick really loves Dr Who, but I just don't believe that he thinks this is the greatest show on televison.
I didn't have the foggiest what was going to happen in the finale. I was only answering Sam's conjecture that none of us thought of the Tesselecta as the Doctor.
Looking forward to watching it at least twice more in the next 48 hours. Once with my child - wow. And once to freeze frame and analyse. Then I'm coming back armed for bear.
Welly, welly, welly, welly well... Things have gotten a little stormy in here. And, although I can understand why... I don't think I can really understand why.
1) THE BUTTER UP:
These Docbacks are the best thing that AICN has to offer on the site. Part of that - a very large part - is the mutual respect and civility. But another large part is that, generally, we are not Stupid. We are a long, long way from Stupid. We have seriously observant, probing, and intelligent minds in here and for the past eight months, all of those minds were bent on one, single goal - to second guess the series. In the part 3 days alone, over 2,000 posts. Over the course of the past eight months - tens of thousands. Hundreds of intellectual manhours spent by the best brains on the site.
2) THE PITCH
It should suprise and disappoint no one, then, that we came through on several points.
We were right... which means that we were right, not that Moff failed because he was not able to come up with something none of us had considered over the course of eight months of brainstorming. If we wanted, truly, to be surprised, we should have all sat home and blankly watched the show and thought nothing more about it until the next episode came out.
That strategy has worked wonders for Two and a Half Men for years now.
As to concerns about incomplete or inadequate answers, one only needs to look back at series 5.
Last year, we had a two-part finale involving
1) The Doctor being locked in an inescapable prison, hands manacled to his sides, in a stasis field, in a vault with every known lock in it. Only to find
2) He escaped from the box. Anybody remember how he did this?
I don't. You don't. Because we don't know. Because he just did. VVVVAP! There he was.
3) Then he was blinked out of existence because he went into a crak in the universe and was gobbled up.
4) Then he popped back again, because Amy remembered him. And she grew up near a mystical crack that gave her God-like powers to reincarnate things that had never existed. DOes anybody understand how that power worked? Did she wiggle her nose, or blink hard with her arms crossed?
Nobody Really Knows. We just kinda said, yeah.... ok.. she has magic crack powers. So she can do that.
I mean, fool me once... fool me twice...
This is the Style of story Moff wants to tell. This is what he's good at. And, at it, he IS Very, Very good. There's much more Indiana Jones than Asimov in his mix. And I like that personally, because, frankly, I abhor Asimov.
So, what you got this year is Pandorica TWo. Better than Pandorica One, in fact, because at least there was an attempt to explain the more esoteric twists. You might not like the explanations, but you have to decide if you would have preferred a VVVAp, a mop, and a fez.
I don't think Moff intended to 'fool' anyone into thinking he was going to come up with the ultimate mindfarking, unknowable, unguessable worldstopping series.
First of all, he was up against us. And we're good.
And second of all, I don't think his interests and ours are exactly the same - we want flawless diamonds, and he wants firecrackers. He gave us what he had; what he could and wanted to deliver. And what he gave us was pretty damned good.
What it was, was exciting. A romp. And just intellectually clever enough to keep all us wrinklies watching a show that's meant for pre-teens and kiddies. This Is A Good Thing.
Moff did not build this pedestal he's been placed on, and if those who built it on their own inflated expectations now want to tear it down, so be it. You've had two seasons to figure out what the stylesheet is here - this is the way Moff is doing the show. And I like it.
And others won't.
But it's not a failure - its a difference of expectation.
With your explanation, the question becomes:
What alteration caused River to not shoot? (Or, if you prefer, what made her originally shoot?)
Also, based on your interpretation, is the first Doctor shot on the beach in TiA the tesselectra?
I'm trying to grasp everyone's theories. I've got my own, I believe.
I have to re-watch it tho. I/m not a huge fan of the wiping or rewriting of time, but I did like what they did in the reality where time stopped.
The blending of most of the characters we've seen over the last season.
I also mis-understood the Brigadier reference and thought he was calling about Wilfred.
I always thought he eyepatches had a image of the Silence (or whatever their given name is now, the aliens) so they would never forget them when they looked away.
I wonder why they wear suits.....
I also had a feeling that the Doctor we see die was a fake. I was convinced it was a new ganger. Interesting tho.
And I also agree that a series with the Doctor hiding might be weird. But who knows.
Maybe for the 50th they'll pull out all the stops and we'll get another 5 Doctors or companions & friends from the past, even Cap'n Jack.
really did make it look like you were trolling. Sorry if I miscontrued that, but the whole tone and even mentioning it's a kid's show seemed be be just for trying to ignite a controversy. I'm glad you put this subsequent post up clarifying things.
But, yeah, right now it's the best television series out there, or at the very least one of the best (it and Sherlock are in good competition for that now - either way, Moffat wins). And, it's one of the best shows of all time, up there with The Avengers, the Prisoner, The Twilight Zone and the original Star Trek.
In episode 1 we see the end result, with River shooting. River not shooting created the divergent timestream, but when they collapse that, that timestream and the events that cause it (not shooting) go away.
Yes, I contend it was the Teselecta on the beach the first time, since from the Doctor's subjective viewpoint he's always picked up the Teselecta and rode inside it when he showed up at the beach.
that's treading into deep waters there, we were talking about it in the Closing Time thread - we suspect that they're just into giving posthypnotic suggestions to tailors to make them suits and that they don't need to pay for them. We also suspect that they act and talk like John Inman in Are You Being Served? when nobody else is watching them, and they just go into the butch whisper when somebody's watching them in order to try to seem scary.
I probably should have thrown the Wild Wild West in with that mix, and could have thrown Babylon 5, Farscape, Life on Mars (UK) and Ashes to Ashes (mostly for the last episode of the 2nd season and all of the 3rd season) into that mix. Oh, and the first episode of Max Headroom was one of the most delighfully subversive things ever to be broadcast on television ever.
Is there a sump pump in the lower levels, and a drain valve? Or did it have to keep the scuppers clear?
Is it, like Data, 'Fully Functional'? Hard on the shock absorbers, that one... and I'd think they'd have to stock up on Dramamine for that mission... ~grin~
It would definitely be the kind of thing for the Doctor to do.
Now, if someone wanted to throw out a completely paranoid theory they could claim that the bit with the Doctor tracking down the Teselecta actually took place before The God Complex, and that it was actually the Teselecta taking the bite out of the apple before the Doctor could tell the crew 'No no no, Amy knows I don't like apples'. But that would be crazy talk...
they store up the waste, then eject it and light it on fire to make it look like regeneration energy!
As for being 'fully functional', we've seen the Teselecta shoot one kind of ray out of it's mouth and another out of it's eye, I'm not sure we really want to know what it shoots down there...
And then the crew has to refill the reservoir. Until it's refilled, the unit is inactive. Takes about an hour, longer on older units.
And, in the meanwhile, it temporizes with pillow talk and has a smoke.
I think the board's upset that at the next update the Closing Time thread should have reached 1500 posts. It's jealous and trying to eat the posts before they're counted. Unless I invoke the grand mystical tradition of posting about the missing post here, whereupon the perception filter will drop and the post will become visible again, making people wonder why I was going on about a missing post in the first place. The finest of cutting edge Serbo-Croatian technology, the software running this forum is.
Still haven't rewatched but I think that's pretty telling. Instead, now, he got it from Napoleon and looks at it appreciatively.
Point is that the Doc died in TIA.
And this parallels perigee's comments on the escape from the Pandorica. How did the Doc escape?
Well, remember ... what's the one thing you never, ever, ever want to put in a trap?
Here's why. Something about the Doc's future is essential to the origin of the universe. The universe being timey-wimey, the moment you plonk the Doc in a situation where his future is threatened, the universe picks a past in which his future gets restored.
So although it looks like we're getting a lot of Ex Machina from the Moff, really there's not much more necessary for the Doc's escaping than the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM at work.
And if you doubt that, consider - Cat In Box. Doc In Box. The Doctor In The Tardis. That meme has been hammered home over and over.
Now you may wonder why Amy has a non-local memory of things. Why growing up next to a crack in the universe makes her special.
I wonder that too.
Did anyone else think think it was very interesting how Dorium pronounced ~Doc Tor Who~?
...those were some of the greatest comments I have ever read on any DocBack.
And they're great because they're true. Undeniably true.
My own posts were to get people thinking in a different way about the obviousness, and that it's not a bad thing at all. Infact, when it's delivered as good as this it's actually pretty damn good.
Roll on next year. I can't wait to see what's in store. God willing, we'll all be here to share the madness.
It's now. I think Tennant has been away long enough & Doctor Who has become more popular than it's ever been.
I would LOVE to see Eccleston back, along with the old crew/companions, etc.
I dont post all the time but I read the DB's every week.
Seeing 8 regen into 9 would be awesome.
He's already stated he doesn't want to come back to play the Doctor again. Perhaps he'll be like Tom Baker and want to do it again decades down the line, but I doubt things will change in time for the 50th anniversary. Of course, we could keep up the tradition of the 20th anniversary and gather whatever Doctors we can, and have them all standing around a wax dummy of Eccleston as the 9th Doctor for publicity pictures.
Could you explain this Chemical Wedding connection more thoroughly? Sorry if you already did this on another talkback, but I'm fascinated by this, as I've studied and taught that particular text. Let me hear your theory.
In TIA, the 1103 Doctor has a diary...just like Rivers...now, after TWORS, we know they havent done Jim the Fish or anything like that...So, maybe to keep River on course, maybe the Doctor's diary is EXACTLY like Rivers, I.E> he went to the library and took it. Now, everyone will be saying that he might not be able to because of the Vashta Narada, but, if he went there in the TEselecta, he could have, since its not flesh and bone, there is nothing for the Vashta to consume, making it immune there, sort of...so, the T Doctor now has a diary, and maybe even a Sonic with red setting to give to River sometime in the future....
Or did I just way over-think all that?
So this show can go back to being intriguing and amusing without the smarmy "acting" of a faded beige-colored old biddy. I found the "wedding" to be a bit of a jolt to the gut, and not in a good way...that had to be the ickiest onscreen kiss ever.
Apologies to River fans, but I find her unbearable. It was bad enough when Who got turned into the Amy and Rory show. With River mixed in, it became unpalatable. Too bad. The Christmas special reeled me into the Whoverse, and I've enjoyed the occasional episode since then, but I am so sick to DEATH of River and Rory I could blow chunks. I'll give this series one more look when it picks up again (apparently in the year 2014 or whatever) but if it doesn't start being fun again, then THAT will be the series finale as far as I'm concerned. Peace out.
The Silence conspire to kill the Doctor and make that a fixed point in time. The Doctor gets wise to this and manoeuvres to escape such a fate. Notice the whole season repeatedly has him investigate stories that involve the creation of a doppelgänger. These are the choices he has available in his recent experience when he picks a solution. It gives the season its theme and the Doctor's motivation in revisiting the importance of these stories as he plots his next move. If at a latter stage he were to go on a site seeing tour these are the episodes in his life that might have pieces of an answer he needs to revisit. His plan is a good one and will work and he can trick the Silence into believing they killed him when in fact the fixed point they create is the death of his double.
However the plan goes awry when River rebels against the plan the Silence had for her. This unwittingly sabotages a fixed point in time creating a sort of dream universe where time in non-linear and in decay. Here all things can be at once and whatever essence the Doctor takes here he must convince River to act as he tells her she must when he finds a way to collapse the unreality back into now. River sees her feelings of defiance not only sabotaged the Silence it sabotaged the Doctor's plan and she understands its okay to act selflessly and trust him, as he forgives her for doing what they ask. And this is the key to the Doctor succeeding in fooling the Silence into making a fixed point of him faking his own death and time returning to normal and his friends learning the truth and keeping it secret.
Whether or not to divulge knowledge of the fixed point had for Rory and Amy been a dilemma earlier. Unwittingly they tip off the Doctor that his plan is required and once it is successful River relieves them of their burden. The successful resolution of the unreal dream reality enables Amy once again to retain memory of the different permutations which was absent at first while that drama was of an undetermined outcome during the season. However for the Doctor it is foreshadowed that a number of iterations of thwarting fate all tend to loop towards a bigger problem than merely outwitting the plot by the Silence to kill him. Evading that outcome has consequences that are hard to contain.
Now I can go along with this interpretation to a point. I think there are still issues about whether it amounts to an it was all a dream ending. And that chopping up the story out of sequence is a sleight of hand to disguise whether or not there is much of a story beyond the chopping up. A problem I have is the guy comes up with plenty of cool ideas that work great as set pieces or vignettes, but I'm rarely sure how well conceived the architecture. By muddying the through line I think he's attempting to obfuscate problems rather than finding the confidence to make stories more elegant.
At times it can feel like throwing cool ideas for fan fiction at the wall and hoping something sticks. And at times you get outstanding classic stand alone episodes that forget the frustrations of the mythology arcs. And it's strange because the guy is very good at character beats too. He can write witty dialogue. I sense sometimes these different strands of the show are not somehow in unison.
Stories are too propelled by plot not character motivation despite having well crafted character scenes in them. Or the plot is shoehorned into strong character writing. The story needs to stem more organically from the people in it. It's strange seeing somebody do both well but not able to elevate the material by tying those two strands together in a coherent fashion. At its worst this leads to overconfidence on the part of a talented writer who isn't quite nailing it as well as he thinks he is.
I mean if you go and watch something like Deadwood EVERYTHING in that show happens because of how the people think and speak. Maybe it's harder to do that with a lot of very strong science fiction concepts on the table I don't know. The show seems to be able to do both just not at the same time and its becoming an Achilles heel. Variety is good but tone and pacing are important and have been very inconsistent. The Doctor's Wife, The Girl Who Waited and Closing Time are all of the high calibre of episode the guy used to write before he was the guy. He needs to find a way to incorporate the strengths of those stories into the continuity of a whole season.
Until he does it's preposterously high end fan fiction written by a smart and witty guy with an admirably wide repertoire of cultural allusions. And you can sort of see as his day job he used to write character stuff good enough to get him hired to write Spielberg scripts. This feels more like a hobby or precocious juvenilia reconstructed in a hurry. You see the finger prints of somebody who looks like he could write a decent Hollywood blockbuster if he had eleven months to spend on a script instead of eleven days or god forbid eleven hours.
For me in retrospect I think last nights finale was pretty good except that too much rested on what was in the end a bit of glossy fluff.
As a standalone vignette it was very very good but, as one of the cornerstones of the arc this season it was lacking.
To have a story where one of the cornerstones is " the Doctor must die" and change it with simple exposition in the last minute to "the Doctor must be on the beach" is really poor form and shows a real lack of planning or empathy with your audience.
Still roll on next series and a less god-like Doctor--I'm all for that.
I think the story being 'The doctor must die' cornerstone still holds true. It's just that he didn't actually die, just the universe must believe he did. Just as we did.
The fixed point in time is a particular place/time in the universe where events cannot be altered. If you attempt to, there are massive consequences (River's creation of the alternate timeline)
Damn the Moff for misdirecting the audience expectation. In an age where you have to plug the show, but not give spoilers - really, I'm all for it. I don't actually want to know until I see it on screen - then as long as what's shown dramatically holds true for the story, and it did, that's good enough for me.
Well since Dorium still knows about the Fields of Trensalore then thats still going to happen in theory.
If the Doctor was dead then the Fields of Trensalore wouldn't happen--- that it still is going to happen a bloody big clue to any Silents interested that the Doctor isn't dead.
I guess it's all just a matter of perspective. Part of my enjoyment of Dr Who comes from the fact that I don't think any of it makes a lick of sense, but it so consistently doesn't make sense, that that lack of internal logic, is in and of itself an internal logic.
This is why I don't bother with indepth theories, I just don't see that side of the show, as long as its entertaining, and imaginative and continues to surprise me then I couldnt care less how they get from point A to Z
Well it comes down to, what is a fixed point in time? It's just something silly the show came up with at some point.
I'm not sure if time travel is really possible, and if it were my feeling would be that none of history can be changed, the 'whatever happened, always happened' logic of time travel
The writers like to do those kinds of stories but also like to do the 'back to the future' type changing the past stories as well, and if you have those the only way you can explain why the doctor doesn't go back and 'kill hitler' for example is to ask the audience to believe that there are certain points of time that are flexible, and others that are not, and only time lords can tell the difference.
It's a writers device, nothing more. It doesn't have any basis in science or logic or anything beyond that. Someone may disagree with my by that, but that was the exact train of thought that told me back in 'lets kill hitler' that the question was: 'Doctor who?' and not something that actually could be the oldest question in the universe like 'why are we here?' 'is there a god?' 'what happens when we die?' etc.
At the end of the day its a tv show, and none of those questions would have given us a zesty satisfying moment at the end of the season in the same way that having Maldavorian shouting 'DOC-TOR WHO?!' did
I've watched the episode twice and only one thing really confuses me.
Why did the Doctor and River get married?
I mean was it just a matter of them genuinely loving each other? Because even then it seems like a very inoppurtune time.
The doctor made it seem as though the success of his plan hinged on them getting married right then, but really it just hinged on the 'look into my eye' moment
Its not that i object to them getting married, it just seemed like the tone of them getting married when they did was for some specific reason, yet I'm hard pressed to think of what that is
I'm choosing to exclude Torchwood from my personal canon of Who, other than at some point Jack ran torchwood with gwen and ianto (since that is actually seen in Journey's end) but I just find the series too dissappointing as a whole to really let any of it register in my brain.
Although I did like the episodes 'captain jack harkness' and also 'adam' and the first 4 episodes of children of earth
I completely disagree, after nearly 50 years no explanation would be satisfying. There is nothing that any writer could come up with that ever feel like a worthwhile answer
that is why the question must never be answered.
The whole fact that 'the question' is the title of the show is purposeful, and a bit meta. Whatever the reasons internally on the show why this information must never be known, within the reality of it being a tv show, it can never be known because if we explain the biggest mystery of the show, not only would show be less interesting going forward, but it would retroactively taints everything that came before.
Seriously, imagine the biggest possible answer to 'the question'
Satan, god, merlin, santa claus, the grim reaper, etc
Feel satisfied? I sure wouldn't. and just knowing that that is the official canon answer and watching any of the previous episodes/seasons knowing that would just make them less interesting.
Some mysteries should remain a mystery forever, this is one of them.
I think they hint at what kind of answer we are talking about. The Doctor is the universe's Doctor, and he knows something about the internal makeup of the universe, so if you control him (though knowing the answer), you can control the fate of the universe. So it must never be answered because no one should have control over the Doctor.
Yes, I assume she is still alive, unless she like River, Rory, the Doctor, etc have some sort of real experience in the alternative time line, so it was real for them-- and if one died in it, one dies -- making Amy Freddy...
Really enjoyed it, you know what I'm glad it wasn't all wrapped up. I was worried they would try to tie up to many loose ends, I think it's obvious the Smith era will have one overall arc and I think that's pretty cool.
I loved the set-up for the next season. I think we're in for a more low-key Doctor. Instead of arriving in so many situations and everyone been in awe of him, I hope we get a more 'mysterious stranger' type Doctor.
I'd love to see a Neil Gaiman two-parter next season, preferably on a Alien world. I think 'the Doctor's wife' gave me a taste for more stories set away from earth.
This finale really cemented a life long fan, my six year-old son Dan, I loved it above any other episode he's seen. I still wouldn't bracket 'Who' a kids show.
Definitely the best family show on telly at the minute.
I see what you're getting at, but I simply don't agree.
and it's been my observation that a lot of people really dislike the idea of 'whatever happened, always happened' style time travel stories
I noticed this a lot during Lost's 5th season to. But to me that is the only way that time travel can ever make sense.
You have to remember to exclude yourself (the audience) from the equation, people (not you specifically) tend to include themselves as a factor in the equation, that because we see things in a certain order, that has some baring in how they took place.
Now I know a lot of people hate Lost, but that show did do a good job of explaining unalterable timelines, aka whatever happened, happened.
When the 5th season ended and people were debating if Jack did indeed succeed in creating an alternate timeline where the plane never crashed, I knew that couldn't be the case, and maintained that belief (accurately) throughout the 6th season despite what seemed to be an alternate universe at first co-existing with their own. And there was a very simple reason why the audience should know it was false:
Because in the 5th season finale, intercut with the 1977 stuff with the nuke, is the 2007 set stuff with 'Locke' and Ben and Alpert going to see Jacob. This is happening AFTER the events of Jack in the 1970s. Whatever Jack did, it already happened, therefore we know it didn't work. People like to think of these two timelines happening 'simutaneously' or to be linked somehow. But they aren't the only reason it seems that way is because the show edited the two stories in juxtaposition to each other. But you could just as easily re-edit the show into chronological order, in which case all of that season 5 dharma stuff happens before any of the events in seasons 1-4.
The record analogy is good to (used in doctor who and lost) or a book. You could pick up a novel, and read it front to back, or you could read it in random order. It doesn't change the events of the book itself, in a story like season 6 of doctor who, the writer is simply doing the 'out of order' for you. But the events still happen the same way:
-Dr900 years old drops off Amy and Rory after their honeymoon
-Amy and Rory observe the doctor mucking about in time (the montage at the beginning of Impossible astronaut) this is the 200 years that seperates Dr900 years old from Dr1100 years old
-Dr1100 gets the teselecta and distributes the letters
-Dr1100 meets up with amy rory and river, then gets shot by River
-Dr1100 very much alive drops off Maldavorians head back at the cave (end of last nights episode)
-Dr900 meets up with them afterwards
-All the events of season 6 then happen in a straight line leading up to the god complex, Dr 900 then leaves amy and rory behind
-the doctor mucks about for 200 years (as we've already seen in the prologue of 'impossible astronaut', his last stop is his visit to see Craig in closing time
-So Dr900 is now Dr1100
-Then he tracks down the viking guy, which leads him to the Teselecta, which is where the loop closes.
SM is putting in esoteric mysteries into a sci-fi form. This much is rather clear. I also think all seven days of the Chemical Wedding have an influence in what SM is doing (to answer one question: the text is a source for ideas, with all kinds of things developing out of it, but changed to make its own story).
The Doctor has his own inner-transformation -- by being inside himself! And yes, he is wed to River because it is him saying yes, inside himself...
But more than that, look to the first day:
All on a sudden ariseth so horrible a tempest, that I imagined no other but that through its mighty force, the hill whereon my little house was founded, would flye in pieces. But in as much as this, and the like from the Devil (who had done me many a spight) was no new thing to me, I took courage, and persisted in my meditation, till some body after an unusual manner, touched me on the back; whereupon I was so hugely terrified, that I durst hardly look about me; yet I shewed myself as cheerful as (in the like occurrence.) humane frailty would permit; now the same thing still twitching me several times. by the coat, I looked back, and behold it was a fair and glorious lady, whose garments were all skye-colour, and curiously (like Heaven) bespangled with golden stars, in her right hand she bare a trumpet of beaten gold, whereon a Name was ingraven which I could well read in but am as yet forbidden to reveal it.
Again, things familiar and yet transformed. This should tell us that those who are with the Doctor are being given a glimpse to the universe -- look to the Doctor when he first meets Rose, and how he sees the universe. He sees it in a unique way -- remember the lines well. This goes with Silver Nemesis, "Doctor Who?" and the fact that he is the force in the universe which keeps it stable, the force who must not be controlled. The hidden secret -- the Doctor Who esoteric mystery -- which only a few elect are allowed to see.
Look at it another way:
If like you said, the first time around the doctor DID die, then how could he have even created a second go around to NOT die? He'd be dead, and thus there would be no one fix things.
Now you're going to say, 'no' he sent out the invitations to his younger self to prevent it.
But his younger self didn't observe the 'death' and Amy/Rory/River knew not to tell him about it. Therefore, he hasn't imparted any information to himself at all.
Throw into the mix:
-River Song, who is already interwoven into his timeline. When she got the invitation she was in prison. For what? Why killing the doctor of course.
-Canton. Canton could only be there because the doctor invited him. And he had already expirenced the events of 1969 nixon stuff. But why did Dr.900yrs and amy and rory and river go to 1969? Because Dr1100yrs told them that's where they were heading.
-So what if any evidence is there of a 'first time through, the doctor really died, non-teselecta' version of events is there?
I agree with your comment.
The only thing I'm unsure about is which order this is happening for the Silence.
They seem to be fairly linked to River's sequence of events, which to me makes it seem like the 'blowing up the tardis' stuff from 'pandorica opens/big bang' is actually the Silence's retatitory attack against the doctor for defeating them in 1969.
In other words, although the Nixon/moon landing/'you should kill us all on sight!' stuff was 2nd for us the audience as well as for the doctor and amy and rory, I think those events may have happened 1st for the Silence. and then because of that critical defeat in 1969, they struck back at the doctor with the 'blowing up the tardis' plot (which I'm still hoping we get more details about)
Agree totally and , whilst its a writers device, surely there has to be some logic to the fixed point in time scenario.
And, if the Doctor being at the Lake in the Teselecta and getting shot, puts Time right, then surely that must be what always happened.
That's a good observation re: what caused River not to shoot.
I look at is this way:
-Its a fixed point in time where River always shoots the teselecta which she believed to be the doctor
-River defied time because of her love for the doctor (and because she is special so can break the rules)
-the 'all of time at once' 5:02pm universe is created, but is centered around the doctor and River (this infact is specifically said). So while all of time was dragged into this world, the only 2 people who are 'really' there are the doctor and River, well they are the only ones who matter. They are there because she broke the 'fixed point' in time, everyone else is there because they got sucked in
so her 'not shooting' always did happen, even back in the impossible astronaut view of the scene, only it went unperceived by amy, rory and we the audience. Then they came back from those events and River shot the doctor the way she was supposed to
That is, at the very least my interpretation.
Just to modify one of your comments, I don't think its so much that the universe had to believe that the doctor died, only that the Silence had to believe he died.
After all where did the 'the doctor must die' thing come from? That was specifically something the Silence believed to be true.
If the doctor's death at lake silencio is a 'fixed point in time' then how could there even be this future on the fields of Throrashium (or whatever the hell it was called) and the fall of the 11th, and the question is answered.
If the doctor died at lake silencio, and ALWAYS had to die there, because its a fixed point, then that future the silence is fighting so hard to prevent would never exist in the first place
so there always had to have been a loop hole and that the doctor did survive.
Quite right. and going back even to RTD and series 3 they were bringing up the very old notion of the power of names, and naming both in 'the shakespear code' with the witches and the power of names and words
and also in the Davros climax at the end of series 4 with the great 'I name you: the destroyer of worlds'
so its well and nicely set up
What I'm wondering about more than who picked up the distress call is what the ramifications are of sending it out. What I mean is this: The Doctor certainly hasn't encountered every intelligent race from the beginning of time forward, so what would the natural response be from a species who isn't familiar with him? "Doctor who?"
I thought that would end up being The Question, but I was bothered by the fact that it just couldn't be the oldest question in the universe. Now we have the answer as to why it is, because River broadcast it to both ends of the time spectrum. In other words, River CREATED The Question. I think. But hey, I've been so very, very wrong before.
I hadn't thought of that, but it would make sense.
I guess we could also take the whole 'big bang 2' into account as well that the doctor in essence created this universe, although that is unknown to most so wouldn't generate the source of the question so your explanation makes more sense.
He didn't even turn the box the right way up, seems careless and maybe a sign of his impending grumpyness making a return, the smug smile he almost had at the end of the episode chilled me.
I am genuinly surprised so many people have taken issue with this episode, it was a romp, as I've already said a 2 parter would have served it better but what we did get was great, exciting, immense legend building storytelling.
Obv the Moff has an eye on next season and maybe dragging his plots out to fit the 50th wasn't the best call but it is done now and we have what we have, a series that I love for it's arc stories and others have really enjoyed the stand alones, so even if I don't love them they where not badly made, maybe a little cliché but that culd just be Moffs writing making the rest look clunky.
When the new tv shows and season and talkbacks roll around again, tangcameo will be posting and watching all from his laptop. Did an inventory of my tv channels a week ago. I was sickened to see how many of my favourite tv stations no longer broadcast what they promise. Even more by how many channels I'm paying for that I don't even watch. Not to mention the history channel, the outdoor channel, A&E, Spike, and a few other channels ALL broadcasting those arsehole vultures who buy and scavenge through other peoples stuff in storage lockers. And cable comanies wonder why we're abandoning them for the internet? If they treated us intelligently instead of stooping to lowest-common-demoninator shows, aired shows based on what their channel is called and about, and stopped going with cheap reality shows (what's next? Extreme Housepainters and Lawnmower Wars? So we can watch grass grow and paint dry?) they might actually keep their customers and even get some back! *hyperventilating*
I've enjoyed this year, esp as I have avoided fanfic, comparisons with the past & too much speculation concerning the future rather than just living life & being happy that for 45 minutes a week we are going to see a great actor playing the Doctor & stories that respect us being steered by a team who are doing good work.Spoiler free works for me [then reading up in the week].
I feel bad to an extent as although it's easy to post comments when there are things to criticise etc i find it would be boring to leave flat "this was great" comments so to all BBC people who may read these talkbacks thank you, please respect us & keep up the good work.
Although a lot of DWC is fluff it was always nice to s