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It Is (But Really Isn't) 'Closing Time' For The Friday Docback!! READER REACTION To DOCTOR WHO S06E12 Is Here!!

Published at: Sept. 23, 2011, 11:58 a.m. CST by merrick

 

 

Spotted last weekend in the middle of a farmer's market in Austin, TX.  Daleks drawn by a four year old girl.

 

 

Merrick here...

This weekend brings us "Closing Time" - the final episode before the show's Sixth Season/Series finale.

"Closing Time" is scripted by Gareth Roberts (who previously wrote DW eps like "The Shakespeare Code" and "The Unicorn and the Wasp") and revisits Craig (James Corden) - a character introduced last last Season/Series in "The Lodger" (also scripted by Roberts).  Steve Hughes, helmer of numerous "Doctors" and "Land Girls" episodes, is directing. 

I've come across a fair number of people who trash talk "The Lodger" and Craig, but I've always been a complete sucker for both that episode and the simple truth of Corden's character.  I deeply enjoyed seeing The Doctor spinning about in such an atypical circumstance, appreciated the glee with which he seemed to embrace the mundane, and feel there's much more fun to be had in exploring The Doctor in similar fish-out-of-water situations.  Hopefully, we'll get at least a little of this in "Closing Time" - I'm quite eager to see what they've come up with. 

While we wait, if you need a refresher on "The Lodger", it's streamable HERE in HD, HERE in standard def, and it's also streaming through Netflix (search for "Doctor Who" ---> find the "DOCTOR WHO 2005" entry ---> select season 5 ---> it's episode 11).

 

A FEW MORE THOUGHTS ON "SPECIAL EDITIONS" OF OLD DOCTOR WHO EPISODES

A few weeks back I mentioned how excited I was by the "Special Edition" of "Day of the Daleks."  The term "Special Edition" is, itself, a tad confusing because it can (and often does) refer, simply, to a DVD or Blu-Ray which carries a whole lotta extras.  In this case, however,  "Special Edition" is more akin the the STAR WARS SEs, or the magnificent STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE SE/restoration from a few years ago.  I.e. new sound work, rejiggered effects, some editorial tweaks, etc.

When I first mentioned it, I said we'd be revisiting the DOTD SE in the near future.  At the time, my hope and intent was to bring you some special media which illustrated the befores and afters of the changes that were made to the episode, in conjunction with BBC.  Subsequently, for reasons still unknown, everything went horribly wrong regarding our interaction with BBC - and said media will almost certainly not be forthcoming at this point. 

Despite this setback, and as I noted a few Docback posts heralding the DOTD SE last week, I wanted to once more to strongly encourage anyone who owns the recently released DOTD DVD to check out the newly enhanced version of the episode.  I think it's a rather remarkable accomplishment, and pulls a very interesting question to the forefront:  I know BBC has previously issued SEs/revised versions of selected DOCTOR WHO episodes, but to what extent should this be done in the future?  And, to which stories?  Provided, of course, that the original versions would always be treated with the deference and respect they're now receiving.

Personally, I think The Powers That Be should seriously consider presenting DW SEs with more regularity.  My sense of the matter is that folks who might be hedging on 'getting into" retroWHO could be coaxed into the fold if the shoddy production values of some important stories were smartly smoothed over.  As I wrote in my initial piece eon the matter...

...my wife was laughing at the closing battle/invasion of "Day of the Daleks" as I watched the original version.  She saw the Special Edition enhancements  - and she wasn't laughing anymore.  The newly embiggened climax  worked /felt that much better.  That's quite meaningful, and potentially a very significant weapon in helping DW reach new or skeptical audiences.  And this...is important.

We've touched on these ponderings a bit already, but now that you're able to see the badassness of the excellent DOTD SE for yourselves, what are your thoughts on the issues? 

Slightly off-topic, but I have to say it;  DOTD brings us what may be the best disentigrations/vaporizations I've ever seen.  Those guns..are wicked. 

 

 
— follow Merrick on Twitter ! ---
 
 

WATCH EPISODES FROM THE CURRENT SEASON/SERIES

See DOCTOR WHO  Season/Series Six Episode 1  - "The Impossible Astronaut"  - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

See "Day of The Moon" - the second installment of the season premiere linked above - in HD HERE and standard def HERE.  

Episode 3 - "The Curse Of The Black Spot" - can be found in HD HERE or standard def HERE.

Episode 4 - "The Doctor's Wife"  - is available HERE in HDwhile standard def is availabe HERE

Episode 5 - "The Rebel Flesh" - can be seen HERE in HD, or viewed in standard def HERE.

Episode 6 - "The Almost People" - can be found HERE in HD and HERE in standard def.  

Episode 7 - "A Good Man Goes To War" is HERE in HD and is in standard def HERE.

Episode 8 - "Let's Kill Hitler" - in HD HERE and standard def HERE

Episode 9 - "Night Terrors" - HD HERE, standard def HERE.

Episode 10 - "The Girl Who Waited" - HD HERE, standard def HERE.

Episode 11 - "The God Complex" is in HD, or standard def is HERE.  

Episode 12 - "Closing Time" -  HD HERE, standard def HERE.  

 


PREVIOUS DOCBACKS

[S6 (1) DOCBACKS]


"The Impossible Astronaut"

"Day of the Moon"

"The Curse of the Black Spot"

"The Doctor's Wife"

"The Rebel Flesh"

"The Almost People"

"A Good Man Goes To War"

 

[S6 (2) DOCBACKS]

"Let's Kill Hitler"

"Night Terrors"

 

 

 

[RETRO-WHO DOCBACKS]

"Time and the Rani"

"Merrick's Personal Journey With The Doctor / "Frontios"

"An Unearthly Child"

DOCTOR WHO Title Sequences & DW At Comic-Con 2011

"The Daleks," "The Awakening," "The Crash of the Elysium"

"The Gunfighters" / "The Edge Of Destruction"

Why Eccleston Left, Here Comes Caroline Skinner, And Season/Series Six Part 1 on Blu-Ray And DVD

"Paradise Towers" / New WHOvian Documentary / Newsbits

New Trailer For Season/Series Six Part 2

"Marco Polo" and "The Sun Makers"

"Day of the Daleks" (+ Preview Of DotD Special Edition)

 

 

AN IMPORTANT WARNING ABOUT SPOILERS

The AICN DOCTOR WHO Talkback below - aka "Docback" - is comprised of, and warmly welcomes, participants from across the globe. 

Alas, please remember that DOCTOR WHO airs in the U.K. a few hours before it's seen on BBC America here in the States, for example.  

While the Docback Code of Conduct (posted below) strongly encourages SPOILER SENSITIVITY at all times, it is quite likely that this Docback will become a SPOILER INTENSIVE ZONE late tomorrow morning U.S. time (Saturday September 10) - when "Closing Time" airs in the U.K. 

If you wish to remain free and clear of "Closing Time" spoilers until after you've seen the show for yourself, you should tread cautiously if visiting this page after late tomorrow morning U.S. time.  

U.S. VIEWERS (AND VIEWERS FROM OTHER REGIONS):  please consider this ample notice and fair warning. 

 

 
DOCBACK CODE OF CONDUCT
 
AICN's Friday DOCTOR WHO Talkbacks - aka "Docbacks"  - operate on a different set of standards than other AICN Talkbacks.  These standards developed quickly and naturally, and we intend to preserve them.  Accordingly, please take a moment to note a few guidelines which should help proceedings move along smoothly and pleasantly:  
 
1) a Docback should be about completely open and free discourse regarding all things WHO (with, obviously, some variation on subject matter from time to time - the real world intervenes, discussions of other shows are inevitable, etc.)... 

2) matters of SPOILAGE should be handled with thoughtful consideration and sensitivity.  Posts containing SPOILERS should clearly state that a SPOILER exists in its topic/headline and should never state the spoiler itself . "** SPOILER ** Regarding Rory" is OK, for example.  "** SPOILER ** Battle of Zarathustra" is fine as well.  "**SPOILER** Why did everyone die?"  Is NOT good.  

And, above all... 

3) converse, agree, disagree, and question as much as you want - but the freedom to do so is NOT a license to be rude, crass, disrespectful, or uncivilized in any way.  Not remaining courteous and civil, as well as TROLLING or undertaking sensational efforts to ignite controversy, will result in banning.  Lack of courtesy may receive one (1) warning before a ban is instigated.  Obvious Trolling or Spamming will result in summary banning with no warning.  
 
In short, it's easy.  Be excellent to each other.  Now party on...
 

Readers Talkback

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  • Sept. 23, 2011, 11:59 a.m. CST

    Hola, fellow DocBackers!

    by DoctorTom

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Damn, I really got a first post in for once?

    by DoctorTom

    That can't be right - this is creeping me out. It's like I'm in a big empty house with evil things lurking around, staring at me and waiting for me to drop my guard. <br> Which is probably a good feeling for thinking of Doctor Who.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    checking in!

    by notspock2

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Ooh, we've started...

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    And hello Docback! My predictions for tomorrow's episode: 1) It'll have cybermen in it. 2) It will run for over 40 minutes. 3) We will discover that the Tardis is evil. That is all.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Housekeeping.

    by Perigee

    Turns on the lights, sets up the Mr. Coffee, puts the kettle on, and arranges the sofa, seats, and cracker barrels. Hangs up some curtains. doesn’t like them, and takes them down. Goes to BLINDS TO GO, purchases some blinds and sets them up instead. Buys a lamp. hangs up that stupid-looking Doctor painting from episode one, drills a hole through the painting into the wall in The strategic spot, and sticks a sonic screwdriver out of it. Looks for a painting of Jack drooling to hang on the wall opposite, can’t find one. Puts out a Herc dartboard for MOV. Plus some cold compresses. Puts on some Fats Waller, just because I can, and nobody will think to change it, and I can imagine everyone talking over Fats Waller all weekend. And Fats Waller, unlike Fezzes, is Undeniably Cool. Fills a big bowl with Toblerones, because we simply haven’t had enough of them this entire season. I think if we really tried, we could re-claim it, and save it. Turns on the Vacancy sign.\ ... OK. I'm good.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Merrick, I'll agree with you on the Lodger

    by DoctorTom

    I actually enjoyed the show a lot. <br> Of course, I don't watch Gavin and Stacy, so I don't know how much of the attitude of people hating the episode came from a pre-conditioned response to hate James Cordon. <br> I'm looking forward to tonight's episode a lot. I'm also wondering if we'll see the time machine from The Lodger back again tomorrow night. I got the impression from the trailers that we might get some scenes underground. The Cybermen liked hiding down in the sewers in The Invasion (with one of them left over for Attack of the Cybermen). In The Impossible Astronaut River finds tunnels covering the whole world. We had the time machine down one of those tunnel holes. I'm suspecting a Silent/Cybermen connection to pop up at some point. (Also, I think there are specific reasons for the Cybermen monitoring that quadrant in A Good Man Goes To War that we'll find out later.)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Ithrat - the TARIDS isn't evil

    by DoctorTom

    it's just misunderstood.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Thank god! Damn you Herc, damn you!!!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Closing Time is an episode I really am looking forward to seeing.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:10 p.m. CST

    thanks for setting the room up, perigee

    by DoctorTom

    The Herc dartboard and the Toblerone are nice touches. (Although I'll be going with Tastykakes instead of Toblerone this weekend since I just got a big box of them shipped in from Philadelphia and I need to consume them before they go bad.)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:10 p.m. CST

    Can we please stop saying READER REACTION IS HERE...

    by brechtsky

    .... When IT IS NOT!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:10 p.m. CST

    The lodger was great, And Doctortom-

    by notspock2

    It is to this day, the only thing I've ever seen Corden in. Without any of the baggage other people seemed to have around him- I thought he was pretty good. So I suspect if he's annoying he's been annoying elsewhere...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:13 p.m. CST

    brechtsky,

    by notspock2

    You need to think four dimensionally- on saturday, it is here.

  • even though they cut the second Ogron's line that he rushed through from the episode (I was always amused by that line after the slow talking of the first Ogron). The effects work, the Dalek voices by Nick Briggs and the tightening up of a few things were good. They actually made the chase with the Doctor on the trike with the Ogrons following work and not feel like it was just padding the story.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Actually, brechtsky

    by DoctorTom

    reader reaction IS here. Merrick posted the thread, we're reading it and reacting to it (and to each other). So, technically Merrick is right. <br> I wouldn't get too worked up about it. After next week, we'll be back to discussing many other things, where saying reader reaction might be more appropriate.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Speaking of reader reaction

    by DoctorTom

    Has the Dan Abnett Doctor Who book come out in England yet? If so, has anyone had a chance to read it?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:19 p.m. CST

    The TARDIS isn't evil.

    by DrMeyer

    No more so than any other woman, at least. Horny, possibly. Certainly a bit nuts after all these year with The Doctor, but evil? Nah.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:22 p.m. CST

    This is one I've really been looking forward to

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    And I hit the wrong key -- so continuing

    by HornOrSilk

    I really enjoyed the Lodger (and I didn't think I would when I heard the production reports). I like Gareth Roberts' work (not all of it, but some good stuff in the audios, SJAs, and the Lodger). And I like the return of the Cybermats - and that they don't look too far off from what we've seen in the past! Yeah! I still think the title "Closing Time" has many meanings to it.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST

    MOV -- as I said in the other thread

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm glad you will come to Merrick's posts and not let the trolls scare you off from the DocBacks!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Special Editions

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think every episode should have them, but I do think two great stories should: Invasion of the Dinosaurs Terror of the Zygons

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:26 p.m. CST

    doctortom - I dun hafta ship dem; I jus' gets 'em. ~Grin~

    by Perigee

    Oh - I think I'd like a peanut butter kandy kake right this moment... ... and there it is. Wheee!! Philadelphia (Fat) Freedom, I love, love, love you. And the TARDIS isn't Evil - it's just meaner on the outside.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:35 p.m. CST

    Neutrinos

    by ElPaw

    Do they travel faster than the TARDIS?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:36 p.m. CST

    Here is a question.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Could the Silence be on the Doctor's TARDIS, and if so, could they have gotten off on the Void planet from The Doctor's Wife, and had someone build them a TARDIS using all of the spare parts?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - what a load of bedwetting trogs out there...

    by Perigee

    Every time I venture into AICN proper, I feel my IQ start to melt; this place must be the homepage of every ACT and 'Special Needs' school in America.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:37 p.m. CST

    Sure, be that way, Perigee

    by DoctorTom

    I just got in the Krimpet Lover's collection, with the limited edition Kreme filled Butterscotch Krimpets, and the Black and White Krimpets. <br> mmmmmmmmmmm

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:40 p.m. CST

    elpaw - the jury's out

    by DoctorTom

    we'll have to get the independent verification to see if the neutrinos actually were travelling faster than light, or if there was some hidden error that they haven't been able to find yet. <br> It could be one of those cold fusion deals. On the other grubby little protuberance, however, there might actually be something to what the scientists discovered.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:41 p.m. CST

    Rubiks cube

    by judgemuffin

    Just checking but it was completed pretty quick last week hinting a passage of time (ie silence) anyone else on that front...that every episode will have a little clue that the Silence where there? or is it just me (chews toblerone)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Come ye back, DocTom

    by Perigee

    The City of Brotherly Love never forgets a son!! ~LOL~ The Pretzels! The Hoagies! Yuengling Beer! The Action News Theme Song!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    michael_jackson's_ghost re: your question

    by DoctorTom

    Yes, it's entirely possible that there had been (at least in the past) Silents on the TARDIS After Day of the Moon, though, they'd be attacked - the Doctor and Amy got to watch the moon landing on the tv as well as the Silents. Had there been one on board through Season 5? Possibly. Was he still there after Big Bang 2? Who knows? <br> As to getting to House's planetoid shell and building a TARDIS from the TARDIS graveyard, I would say that it was highly unlikely. Unless that's the real reason for the astronaut suits. Still, traveling between the regular universe and the bubble universe looked like it would be very hard to do. Not impossible, but hard. You might need cracks in the universe to accomplish it...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    The Philadelphia Siren Song for DocTom

    by Perigee

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGCWA6vQjqE

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Neutrinos *do* travel faster than the tardis

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    They also don't. It depends on their MOOD. Neutrinos are very tempremental. As is the Tardis. But both travel faster than the speed of THOUGHT, which, for me, is walking pace. And that is why it has taken me so long to come up with the following theory: that the Silence post-hypnotically suggested to Idris that she should steal herself a Timelord. But tomorrow, I think, Cybermans! Woo hoo!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Shedded.....

    by CB Chap

    Can not watch tomorrow as will be worse for wear from a beer festival on the GCR..... will watch as a double bill next week. As for my thoughts on Mr Corden...... Corden is a genuine individual who interviews well and is quite funny..... His Sky 1 Sports Quiz is very good fun and he does not take himself too seriosuly...... he just suffered that very British problem of over exposure. Once you get famous in this Country the Media have a way of forcing that person down your throat.... Graham Norton anyone? No? Me neither! Other good (bad?) examples, Alan Titwank, Carol Vorderbore and Orange Winton! Still all those three would make great who baddies.... certainly scare me!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:51 p.m. CST

    I know it's been brought up before but...

    by ThomasFlynn

    Amy and Rory seem pretty damn comfortable with the idea that their daughter is out there somewhere, being raised to become a sociopathic killer. Yes, they now know that their childhood/teen mate Mels was really their daughter. And they've seen the amazing woman that Mels grows up...er...regenerates into. Still, I'm a bit surprised at how aloof they've been about it. I'd be grabbing the Doctor by the Bow Tie and demanding he stop futzing around and get my kid back.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:52 p.m. CST

    My weekly broadcast from the future...

    by huskerdu2

    Closing Time's a top drawer episode. It's very much The Lodger 2, but in a good way. It's more refined, more streamlined and the threat and undercurrents are kind of more coherent. It's just a bit tougher and a touch sadder. Although still very funny. The Cybermen are used very well too (shades of The Pandorica Opens and Tomb...in this one) and Matt Smith is absolutely bloody terrific. Oh, and the ending ain't bad either...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    oops

    by CB Chap

    orange Winton...... (Dale to his special friends!)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Ooh, palpable taunts, perigee!

    by DoctorTom

    I have my work down here in Louisiana though, so I can't really move back. Still, I'll be up that way around Christmas to visit family (and get a cheesesteak fix. And, proper soft pretzels - not these mall shop types or 'superpretzel' oddities that are only vaguely related to true soft pretzels). <br> Oddly enough, every now and then the Wal-Marts down here get some of the Tastykake Sensibles things in - Orange fingers, reduced fat chocolate cupkakes, and coffee kakes. <br> I'm also amused that quite often I can find Herr's and/or Utz chips showing up sometimes - not all the range, but some of them. So, there's still a tenuous lifeline back to that area.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:55 p.m. CST

    the silence

    by judgemuffin

    still exist because at the time of the doctor's death amy is shielding her eyes at one and that is after all the previous events....fixed point of time etc (still chewing toblerone)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:56 p.m. CST

    Right on with the Yuengling, perigee, and The Lodger was solid

    by sunspot_mike

    The only other thing I've ever seen Corden in was Lesbian Vampire Killers, and the only reason I watched that was for Paul McGann. It was ridiculous, but was a pretty good breezy laugh. Loved The Lodger, though. I'm interested to see what they do with the Cybermen. They've been pretty weak since the return, I feel. The first time I saw them was in Earthshock and they scared the crap out of me. I'm hoping this episode brings back some of the scary without the Cybus business. It was all too camp for me.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    thomasflynn

    by DoctorTom

    Well, they do know River turns out okay. And, I suspect that all the stuff in Let's Kill Hitler just pushed them into overload to the point where the stuff with Melody just won't process right anymore. <br> Of course, it is completely possible that there were Silents present in some of the spots after A Good Man Goes To War, and they're giving posthypnotic suggestions to Amy and Rory to not worry about their missing child. Maybe their passivity on this is supposed to be a clue. I'm sure we'll find out a week from tomorrow if that was what is going on.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 12:58 p.m. CST

    by CB Chap

    Can not help thinking that the biggest clue to the way forward this season was in the pirate episode where the Tardis simply slipped through to the other universe and the singing bint took all of the team through too along with all the pirates, who all turned up to fight later in the series..... did they ever come back in to the 'normal' universe? if so how and when? Perhaps I am just very wrong but it was never explained..... do not forget that in the Billie Buck Tooth days it was not possible to go between the universes, although of course they did and so did she, probably her magic teeth. Oh, and i have not mentioned different colour bow ties yet............. Oh and of course it would be fun if the other David Tennant Doctor (brown suit or blue suit??) was the impossible astronaut!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi - NEXT TIME trailer

    by DoctorTom

    I suspect we will get a trailer, but it will be after the final credits and not before.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    RE: Next Time Trailer

    by huskerdu2

    You do. And it's a doozy

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1 p.m. CST

    Good point, DoctorTom

    by ThomasFlynn

    Hadn't thought about that.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:02 p.m. CST

    Huskerdu2...

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Sandwiches. Which one? Christian_bale_trashed_my_lights is still waiting... Funnily enough, your review this week reads as if written by someone who's not watched the episode. Go on - give us your favourite 2/3rds of a line. Or even 1/3rd of a line. Or favourite word. Or favourite piece of punctuation. Unless of course there was no punctuation. So basically you're saying it was like Joyce with Cybermen? Blimey. Well, now we know, folks.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:05 p.m. CST

    Looking forward to a couple of things

    by That Reilly Monster

    First, the episode. The Lodger was one of my favorites from the last series, I rewatch it regularly. Second, participating in this week's Docback. I enjoyed joining in on the tail end of the last one. Plus the aforementioned Herc-inspired thread reminded me of why I stopped hanging out on AICN a long time ago. This, however, is cool (as 11 would say).

  • For example, while it's possible that the Doctor working in a toy shop is a clue that the Celestial Toymaker is involved, I don't think it's probable. <br> On the other hand, now thinking about it, with the chess game in episode 13 the Celestial Toymaker showing up might be as probable as Fenric. There's more of a chance of the moon exploding tonight to keep us from watching the show than seeing either one show up this or next week (of course, even if it wasn't filmed that way, someone in the future with a time machine could reshoot the story with future CGI technology to make it look like regular filming from this time period, stick in the Celestial Toymaker or Fenric, time travel back to the BBC, replace the broadcast tapes/files and give Steven Moffat one HELL of a surprise when he sits down to watch the episode...)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:08 p.m. CST

    ithrat. words to look out for in the episode.

    by DoctorTom

    Branch. Toblerone. Cummerbund. <br> I'm not saying that they're actually IN the episode, but that they're words to look out for.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:11 p.m. CST

    Edible Ginger

    by Donald Crowhurst

    ...is that a sly reference to Amy on the chalkboard? Just above the line, 2 thirds down. I'd eat that out...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Doctortom

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    No, no toblerone - that's next week.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:21 p.m. CST

    thedonald - good spot!

    by DoctorTom

    doubly amusing for posting it right after chucknorrissayshi's post about sex with Amy.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:26 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi

    by DoctorTom

    It's possible that the Doctor killed is a ganger. It's possible that the Doctor's in the suit. I suspect that we won't have both of those be true at the same time. I think it's someone else in the suit (MILFAmy? Melody? A younger Canton Everett Delaware III? Winston Churchill?) shoots the Doctor. It's not the Doctor's style to kill even a ganger version of himself. <br> I suspect it's a gangerDoctor who gets shot, but not from lack of the 'real' Doctor trying to be the one who gets shot. I think that a ganger will be made for taking the Doctors place, but the ganger version decides to be the one to self sacrifice in order to keep the other Doctor around and knocks out the regular Doctor, leaving him in the (1103 year old's version of) the TARDIS to take his place.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Ithrat

    by DoctorTom

    I suspect the cummerbund will be next week as well. And it wouldn't surprise me if 'branch' or a variant of it (branching, etc) gets said then too. <br> Still, it might be amusing to start an Improbable Word Yahtzee going - each person picks three improbable words, and see how many get said during the episode. If someone gets all three of their words - Yahtzee!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by Donald Crowhurst

    ...cheers budd, you always were my fave...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Anybody who wants to see some intriguing art...

    by Perigee

    The background at http://doctorwhospoilers.com/ has changed to something interesting. I never saw it before, anyway. Obviously, the whole site is spoilery, so if you don't want spoilers, don't read.

  • here: http://doctorwhospoilers.com/images/backgrounds/on/ep13a.jpg

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Right, you lot, I'm off to watch the Lodger again

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    And then I'm checking out for a while, probably until Sunday or maybe even Monday. Don't do anything I wouldn't do! In fact, scrub that: do plenty I wouldn't do. Look forward to contributing again not so long from now. Do say 'hi' to everyone who shows up between now and when I come back, or between when I come back and now, which ever order you want to do it in...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:33 p.m. CST

    Perigee re: intruiging art...

    by notspock2

    I looked.. I suspect i might have been right about something, a long time ago...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:39 p.m. CST

    You got James Corden in my Cybermen :(

    by photoboy

    This week's episode could either be great or terrible. It's got my favourite Who villains the Cybermen, but it's also got Corden's character from The Lodger, both a story and a character I didn't really care for. Like the Ninth Doctor, I don't like domestics, so I found The Lodger to be pretty humdrum, hopefully this week's episode will be a bit more exciting.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:40 p.m. CST

    What If.....

    by wtriker1701

    The Silents are indeed working FOR The Doctor (not known by him, or especially his younger version)? At least, not yet...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:41 p.m. CST

    I don't like domestics

    by Perigee

    I understand completely - it's so hard to get good help these days... 8O)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:48 p.m. CST

    thomasflynn Rory and Amy

    by HornOrSilk

    I do wonder if we are seeing things out of sequence, at times; what if they are not so happy about it, and they did find her and something happened?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:49 p.m. CST

    The artwork

    by HornOrSilk

    I've wondered whether or not the eye patch might be a high end flesh controller?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:51 p.m. CST

    *spec that may be spoilers* hornorsilk

    by notspock2

    I think that's also an interesting idea. EVERYONE'S A GANGER!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    The Art - Jack In The Box

    by Perigee

    For, if not Jack, than what is in the box they seem to be guarding through the center of all the stasised Silents?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    Facial hair spoilers(?)

    by Lone Fox

    Sorry if it's already been discussed to death, but for my own speculative peace of mind... In the season finale, according to the episode write up in DWMagazine, the Doctor is serving as an oracle or similar to Churchill. Last time he was all long hair and beard was when imprisoned in the inescapable box in the 2nd(?) episode of the first half of this season. So I'm assuming during at some point during his time in the box he went off on a jaunt somehow... God my brain hurts trying to piece this together! That's it, I don't know. Just wanted to type it out(!)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Joyce with Cybermen...

    by huskerdu2

    ...nah, more like Cybermen Behaving Badly. Favourite lines "You've redecorated. I don't like it." "I'm a bit out of practice." "Unrecognised sound wave." Hints - The Doctor borrows some of Sophie's stationery. A stag night prop goes all the way to Utah.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    as for sandwiches...

    by huskerdu2

    ...cheese, ham and pickle on white.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    Wave 2 Figures: Possible Spoilers?

    by HornOrSilk

    http://forbiddenplanet.com/77184-doctor-who-2011-wave-2-action-figures-uncle-flesh-mask/ What do people think of everyone having "the flesh" with them? Is this a kind of hint?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:01 p.m. CST

    On the off chance, that some trolls got a taste of Doctor Who

    by V'Shael

    in the Herc talkback, can we just remind everyone that in this Docback, we shouldn't feed the trolls? Seriously, just ignore them. No matter how stupid the provocation.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:02 p.m. CST

    Perigee - nice image (spoilers kind of)

    by DoctorTom

    Of course, everyone's pulled to asking about the eyepatches and not asking what is probably the more important question: What does the Doctor have in the box he's holding? <br> I'm thinking it's one of the Order of the Headless Monk's boxes. Maybe even the one with the Fat Guy's head in it.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:03 p.m. CST

    notspock2 -- perhaps

    by HornOrSilk

    Though I'm not thinking everyone is a ganger as much as his companions gain access to powerful flesh technology and use the avatars to get into a place they couldn't otherwise survive?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    I loved The Lodger.

    by the_box_drone

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:08 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk, following up on that thought

    by DoctorTom

    coupled with the box idea - maybe they're infiltrating the headquarters of the Order of the Headless Monks? The best way to not worry about them cutting your head off (or otherwise killing you with their electroswords) is to not have your actual head there for them to cut off. <br> Another random thought now that we're talking about flesh avatar technology: could someone with a mind good enough at multitasking be able to run more than one Flesh avatar at once? An army of Doctors showing up would be just the bonkers type of thing that could happen. <br> Qualifier - I don't see the army at Lake Silencio, just at wherever the Doctor and his Scooby gang might be trying to break into.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    doctortom I would think -- yes

    by HornOrSilk

    And I've wondered whether or not the flesh might still be some sort of Sontaran technology.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Wave 3 Spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    http://www.ikoncollectables.com.au/images/_MG_4680_3.png Doctor with beard http://www.ikoncollectables.com.au/images/_MG_4669_3.png Peg Soldier http://www.ikoncollectables.com.au/images/_MG_4675_3.png Cybermats http://www.ikoncollectables.com.au/images/_MG_4658_3.png Cyberman

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:18 p.m. CST

    As to where the Artwork occurs, my bet is

    by Perigee

    in the pyramid: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1xymjq_mpFg/Tjr5UFUreeI/AAAAAAAAAEM/V-g9kmT8kXQ/s1600/Picture11.png It feels very pyramiddy.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:18 p.m. CST

    Just popping in to say hi

    by Chris

    This talkback is the most civil part of the whole site. And considering that Dr who has been one of my favorite shows since I was a kid that's an added bonus. Not Dr Who related, but what is the general feeling regarding the Dark Shadows movie. I think it has possibilites as long as Johnny Depp plays as both menacing and tragic and not as a buffoon.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    Doctortom.. even more screwy

    by notspock2

    since the connection between the avatar and it's controller could cross time and space... Is it possible for one person to control a whole army in one time while they are in numerous different times?? *BRAIN MELT*

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    @huskerdu - The line about "You've redecorated"

    by V'Shael

    was already public for some time. I don't think the rest have been. So these may go some way towards convincing some people that you are seeing the episodes in advance.

  • Kick off your shoes and stay awhile! <br> As for Dark Shadows, I'm not sure yet. I couldn't tell from the pictures which way it was going to go. I'm actually wanting to see Johnny Depp in The Rum Diary; I'm wanting to see him in Hunter S Thompson mode again. <br> <br> Now, THERE'S a thought for a story! The Doctor meets Hunter S Thompson - maybe there's something to all those rumors about 'bat country'. And, if you go for Thomspon at the time he was covering the '72 election, you could work in Richard Nixon and Canton Everett Delaware III again.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    oooh, notspock 2 - you know what you get in that case?

    by DoctorTom

    Scaroth, last of the Jageroth! <br> Well, not really, but semi-similar. Plus, getting to work in a City of Death reference is always fun.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Your Analysis, notspock2..?

    by Perigee

    God, I always wanted to use that line. Well, Almost that line. What about if you made several gangers who could control an army each? Can Gangers control Gangers?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST

    Good lord those promo photos are BONKERS. (no spoilers)

    by spacehog

    I won't say anything specific for those who don't want to know anything, but WOW there's a lot of really baffling, crazy stuff crammed into one episode. I can't wait! Good to hear some positive reactions here to ''Closing Time'' because I'd almost rather skip straight to the finale at this point. In fact there's SO much craziness in those photos that I just don't see how they can possibly resolve everything we've been wondering about for all this time... How do you guys feel about the finale? Do you think it'll tie everything up, or will we still have some pretty big questions unanswered as we go into the long break? Will this be the last we see of the Silence, Kovarian, et al.?

  • But they'll answer some key ones and tell an entertaining story in the process.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:41 p.m. CST

    @ Spacehog

    by Perigee

    Our best educated intel is that everything will NOT be wrapped up by the end of 6. Some things - like ~The Silents~, The MIB aliens - will be resolved, and others - in all likelihood, ~The Silence~, The religious order - is yet to be dealt with.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Perigee, spacehog

    by DoctorTom

    I'd agree that not everything will be dealt with. <br> When we're talking about religious orders, though, technically we've had more than one to deal with. The Order of the Headless Monks were allied with but separate from the other religious order. It wouldn't surprise me to see the Order of the Headless Monks wrapped up this season but the other (larger order) will likely still be something ongoing.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Re: Amy and Rory's "apathy" towards their missing child...

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

    I'm not a parent (at least I won't be any time in the near future), so I apologize if this observation comes off as a bit "naive"... Is it possible that the audience is supposed to just go along with Amy and Rory's relative disinterest in pursuing their daughter because they themselves had very little attachment to her as a baby in the first place? For the nine months Amy was pregnant, she wasn't consciously aware she was pregnant. Nor was Rory aware of any signs of pregnancy due to the fact the Ganger was giving no physical indication of it. So, while most parents have 7-9 months of time to establish a pre-natal relationship with their child, Amy and Rory did not. They just suddenly got handed a child. And within a very short period of time, it was gone again. However, they have had a substantial relationship with River for well over a season. I just suspect that we're to accept that *that* attachment and relationship trumps the brief involvement they had with River as an infant. Thoughts?...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:51 p.m. CST

    If anybody sees MOV, pester him for me...

    by Perigee

    Unless it's a big plot point in the next two episodes, I want closure on that damned sad clown. Who was the actor - Smith, or someone else? I'd like to be right at least once more this season.

  • How utterly wonderful for an article to come out the week we get the Cybermen back. <br> http://tinyurl.com/432pn2x

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Just checking in...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    I must say I am looking forward to tomorrows ep, I am a fan of the Cybermen...like them more then Daleks. I also was a fan of The Lodger, it was a fun quirky episode, and the Doctor playing football, and completely owning everyone on the field...how cool was that? Also, I am in the early stages of writing a Doctor Who fan fic ep. When I finish, I will post a link, if you all are interested in it. :)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST

    hello, Darthdevious!

    by DoctorTom

    sure, go ahead with the fanfic and post a link when you're done. <br> <br> What will be nice will be that we're getting proper scary Cybermen back this week. Now, I did like Rory's line in A Good Man Goes To War 'Oh, don't give me those blank looks', but after something like that it's good to come back and reestablish them as a credible threat again. If you don't, they tend to wind down and just become a joke (but at least we don't have to put up with jokes about Cybermen not being able to climb stairs).

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:57 p.m. CST

    That's weird -

    by DoctorTom

    this is the second time after posting where I don't see my post immediately showing up, even after refreshing. I'm going to assume my hello to darthdevious did show up and I'll be able to see it in a minute or two, the way it did for my last post.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:58 p.m. CST

    The Girl Who Waited is the best episode of Doctor Who ever. The end.

    by billyhitchcock1

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:58 p.m. CST

    Every question will be answered in the last episode of the season

    by HornOrSilk

    The problem is the answers will be in River's diary and we won't see them ;)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:58 p.m. CST

    Re: Rory and Amy's apathy for their child

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

    I apologize if this was posted twice. It isn't showing up on my end as having been posted in the Docback: I apologize ahead of time if this observation comes off a bit naive, but I'm not currently a parent. I wonder if Amy and Rory's relative lack of "urgency" regarding their infant child's fate is due to the fact there was no prenatal relationship developed with baby River. Amy was in an incubation tube with her Ganger, unaware she was pregnant. Rory also had no indication that Amy was pregnant, as the Ganger displayed no outward signs of pregnancy. So, when the child was born and subsequently taken from them, the two had only really seen or known that child for a relatively short period of time. They didn't have 7-9 months to develop or establish a true attachment to the child (or really even develop a "pre-pregnancy "mind-set to become parents for that matter). On the other hand, Amy and Rory had already developed an extensive and somewhat close relationship with River. I think we as audience members are now to accept that their more substantial relationship /attachment with their daughter at an older age trumps the brief interaction they had with newborn River. Thoughts?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Okay, it did post the first time. Sorry guys!

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Hmmm, two hourse to go

    by DoctorTom

    until Tastykakes, that is, not until Doctor Who (2 more hours at work)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3 p.m. CST

    No need to be sorry

    by HornOrSilk

    It happens at times -- and it adds to #s

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:01 p.m. CST

    stfu donny, it's okay- the board's acting funny

    by DoctorTom

    It's hiding my posts and not showing them until later. I think its a wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:02 p.m. CST

    and, as to your theory, stfu donny

    by DoctorTom

    I have had similar thoughts myself. Although it wouldn't surprise me at this point if the reason is that the Silents told Amy and Rory to not worry about their child, somewhere after A Good Man Goes To War.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    shut the fuck up donny

    by Donald Crowhurst

    Nice reasoning, for a non-breeder. But I'd be amazed if the writers think that much about the characters and their emotions! Could be wrong. I've bred, BTW...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    And we're already #3

    by DoctorTom

    with another Doctor Who thread at number 1. Still, we need to get the REAL DocBack at number one instead of the GangerDocBack Herc set up...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:05 p.m. CST

    shut the fuck up donny

    by Donald Crowhurst

    What does not "currently" a parent mean? You have been before? WTF? Or only in this timeline?...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:08 p.m. CST

    The great/terrible thing about the introduction of the Silence

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

    So-and-So didn't do that or didn't mention that later because the Silence intervened.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:09 p.m. CST

    thedonald

    by DoctorTom

    before The Doctor's Daughter episode, the David Tennant Doctor was not currently a parent either... <br> or, donny's at a point where he's going to be a parent in the future. I'm hoping it's in this latter method rather than in the former (and my condolences if it's the former)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    DoctorTom RE: scaroth

    by notspock2

    you are kind of right there... my brain hurts thinking about the logic of that....

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    No, no loss of children. Thanks for the condolences anyway!

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I am a bit irked at this wibbly wobbly timey wimey talkback as my comment about the Silence above was not posted correctly. Now I look like I'm being an ass to doctortom. I was actually talking about how the Silence could be a very dangerous tool for a lazy writer who wanted to explain away discrepancies in prior stories.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    stfu Donny, good point about the Silents

    by DoctorTom

    Season 5's all purpose excuse was that the cracks swallowed up the event. Season 's all purpose excuse is that the Silents made us forget about it (alternate excuse - that wasn't him, that was a ganger of him). It will be interesting if there's something new for Season 7 that everybody hops on as being an all purpose excuse for things.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    shut the fuck up donny

    by Donald Crowhurst

    Look it to in bro. Best thing you'll ever do... Peace - I'm outty till tomorrow...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    Chuck, thanks for the parental perspective...

    by Shut the Fuck up Donny

    From what everybody has told me about having children, your take on the situation jives more with what my gut is telling me. But, if there's any place to try out different theories, this is the place!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Donny, no worries, you didn't come off that way to me

    by DoctorTom

    Dealing with the wibbly wobbly DocBack is definitely making things more.....interesting...though.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    I'm still thinking

    by HornOrSilk

    Amy did raise Melody. We have the pictures to consider.

  • Which kind of ties in with what I was rambling about before. With the Doctor's long hair/ bearded appearance in the upcoming finale, does that mean it takes place -at least in part- during the events of the earlier Silents episodes?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:29 p.m. CST

    I think River Song has been busy

    by DoctorTom

    I wouldn't be surprised if these spell out 'hello sweetie' in some other language: <br> http://tinyurl.com/3varhy2

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Long day at work, horn

    by DoctorTom

    but seeing your message header saying only I'm Still Thinking struck me as funny. <br> -Is he dead yet? <br> -No, he's still alive <br> -Are you sure he's alive? <br> -He's still thinking <br> <br> End of the day and Tastykake time clearly aren't getting here fast enough.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:35 p.m. CST

    lone fox

    by DoctorTom

    It wouldn't surprise me if some of the things during the season finale take place during other episodes - or vice versa. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Doctor from Let's Kill Hitler show up in this season's finale, or find out that he showed up briefly in last season's finale for River's wedding (appearing for just the initial appearance of his blue box, getting out of there before his younger self showed up later to do all the dancing).

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:37 p.m. CST

    doctortom -- no headless monk on my end!

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm still thinking!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:38 p.m. CST

    Hornorsilk..

    by notspock2

    Yeah, I bought those pictures of Amy and Melody up, - people seem to have forgotten them. I'm sticking to my idea that River Song has 2 pasts.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:39 p.m. CST

    doctortom - with poison on his lips

    by Perigee

    It Would be pretty obvious why he did not, definitely, kiss the bride.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:40 p.m. CST

    notspock2 Spoilers (maybe) for Christmas and speculations

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm also wondering _when_ exactly did the Doctor leave Amy and Rory. And why is it that the house seems connected to the Christmas story. Could it also have a clue as to Amy's raising of River?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:42 p.m. CST

    Was the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler

    by HornOrSilk

    Dying from the poison - or from the astronaut? What if there was a switch there?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Horn

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Couldn't of been from the poison, because he couldn't regernerate from being poisoned by River.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Horn, ignore. Thought we were on DOTM.

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    oops

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:49 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi

    by Lone Fox

    Ha! I usually don't try deciphering the episodes too much, but this series demands it. It's maddening. Good maddening. But yeah, the head bleeding is widespread I think.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 3:53 p.m. CST

    MJG it's cool

    by HornOrSilk

    Time is being rewritten

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4 p.m. CST

    Horn, leaving Amy and Rory at the House

    by DoctorTom

    I think it's exactly for the reasons he gave at the end of The God Complex. As for the connection of the house to the Christmas special, honestly I expect that it's only going to be the Doctor visiting friends at their house for Christmas. It's a nice homey thing for the Doctor to do that we haven't really gotten in the past - following up with friends just to say hi and keep in touch. I think some of that might be driving the Doctor in tomorrow's episode. Well, that and wanting to say proper farewells before he dies for good. And this time, it's not going to be a 'victory lap' like with David Tennant.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4:06 p.m. CST

    CERN have only just realised

    by Seph_J

    what the Daleks knew thousands of years ago.... You need Z-Neutrino energy for faster-than-light travel.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4:19 p.m. CST

    Regeneration disabled

    by History101

    This has been said twice. Ganger clues? The problems are 1. River use her regenens to save him. --"using them all up" does imply a limited number by the way-- Would regen energy work on a ganger? 2. We doctor begins to regen by the Lake. If he is ganger would have even begun? Or is that river's energy is what the ganger was dispelling? Solves both problems. Unrelated--- why did the spaceman eat little melody pond as she claimed in the phone call?

  • looking at some pictures, it reminded me that we had Buckingham Senate coming up. Churchill and Romans and such. Maybe the Rory we got now is actually the Rory from when time fractured and everything happened at once? (Which looks to be what we're getting next week)

  • Production pictures released for episode 13: <br> http://tinyurl.com/3bm2qed <br> Seriously, if you want to go in cold, don't look at these. <br> <br> Fifth down, on the far right (the one showing the camera shooting the scene) - is that Rory in the picture? (this got me thinking about the theory I threw out in my past post). <br> <br> Even more interesting and startling is the one directly below that. Generic ruins and tunnels, or could this be more explanation for the Underhenge? <br> <br> I do have to say that the bottom left picture is cute, given some of the Doctor's statements in The Impossible Astronaut.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Doctom - Spoilers!!

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    In the one pic, the Doctor that has his hair longer, also looks to have aged in is face as well. Very interesting.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Nice to be back on the proper Docback.

    by ComicGuru

    Hey Merrick how come others are posting pale imitations and non news stories on AICN these days?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Here's an odd thought -- the Cybermen

    by HornOrSilk

    As converted humans are following the orders given to them by the Silence...

  • Most people (I think) thought I was pointing out how Night Terrors seemed like an episode out of order. I didn't get back to responding, but here goes(I won't get it dead on people so please forgive me in advance, I watch and love the show but I can't always keep up like some of you): Lets go back to the Episode 1, "The Impossible Astronaut." Now, the episode ends, if memory serves me right, with Amy shooting at the girl in the astronaut suit (possibly River?). The next week, "Day of the Moon," the episode starts like a month later? There was NO explanation regarding what happened to the kid shot in the astronaut suit. The Doctor is abruptly in custody. Okay, did I miss something? What happened? For that matter, before I make myself look dumb, why don't we tackle this firsthand...I will be pointing out other things too.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 5:13 p.m. CST

    On a completely different side note...

    by ComicGuru

    Anyone on here actually from Cardiff? I'm just intrigued whether I may know anyone on here.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 5:30 p.m. CST

    Im not from Cardiff

    by HornOrSilk

    But I have the CD, "Cardiff After Dark."

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    V'Shael...

    by huskerdu2

    ...don't really care if people believe I've seen the eps or not. It's not a competition. I'm just offering an opinion based on what I've seen. If people don't believe me...well, that's up to them. But I have seen 'Closing Time' and it's a little gem of an episode.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 5:37 p.m. CST

    red43jes

    by Lone Fox

    Without going back to rewatch the episodes, I couldn't even hazard a guess! I did just have a thought regarding eyepatches though- could they be a way of seeing the Silents?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST

    #1 and #2

    by HornOrSilk

    Yep

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    Obey the Daleks

    by HornOrSilk

    Exterminate the Doctor. Er, sorry, just being manipulated by the Daleks there. But now I'm free.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Ok...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    I have officially started work on my story...but do not expect it this week, or even the week after...I figure it should be ready by the time we get t the next Classic Who Docback...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:39 p.m. CST

    I wonder if we will get a crossover with

    by Michael_Jacksons_Ghost

    Doctor Who, and Inspector Spacetime? Exterminate!!! Irradicate!!!!!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:44 p.m. CST

    Still hard at work at my ''GANGERVERSE'' theory.

    by spacehog

    Still haven't gotten anywhere beyond the name. But come on, what an awesome name!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:47 p.m. CST

    Doctor Who Crossover with Dancing with the Stars

    by HornOrSilk

    Davros dances with Lady Gaga

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 6:58 p.m. CST

    I'm not from Cardiff

    by Perigee

    But I have a Cardigan Sweater... I see that DoctorTom is on his Tastybreak - chow them phillycarbs, my son.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:01 p.m. CST

    I loved my Cardiff Day

    by HornOrSilk

    In DC when I lived there. The Smithsonian Folklife Festival. Was great. It's where I bought my Cardiff CD.

  • His trashcan is bigger on the inside: From Wiki - In Oscar's trash can While appearing to be the size of a normal trash can, Oscar's residence is actually larger inside than the exterior would suggest. Oscar has noted through the years that it boasts such amenities as a farm, swimming pool, ice, rink, bowling alley, and a piano. Other items include Slimey, Oscar's pet worm; Fluffy, Oscar's pet elephant; Oscar's shoes; and a dimension gate to Grouchland, Oscar's hometown.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST

    We shall topple the false DocBack.

    by Perigee

    Oh, Yes! It is my sworn mission!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:17 p.m. CST

    perigee -- oh no you didn't -- spoilers!

    by HornOrSilk

    From the Halloween Special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2n-JovBwqI

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:24 p.m. CST

    No spoiler - That Grouch was bigger on the Outside.

    by Perigee

    If I were his Doctor, I would be mad too. And not simulating buttsecks with him, I might add.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:28 p.m. CST

    But it is a spoiler, Perigee

    by HornOrSilk

    It makes one spoiled realizing how good Doctor Who is. Oh, and it might be a failed flesh clone. ;)

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:29 p.m. CST

    I know what the question is.

    by nrn

    Doctor Who? Remember how river said "What what that word come to mean" in reference to the Doctor. Mark my words last scene we see will be of evil doc!!

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:34 p.m. CST

    nrn doubt it

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:37 p.m. CST

    How would Jack Harkness handle that party?

    by Perigee

    Is one man's trash another man's treasure? I know - weak. But it all goes to putting Dioxholder and his band of shrunken heads in the rearview mirror, so...

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:39 p.m. CST

    NRN - Doesn't pass the NEE test.

    by Perigee

    The Doctor already asked that question when he met River in the restaurant in Kill Hitler, and the shrubbery didn't collapse.

  • Might there come a time where the doctor is reviled so much that he loses his status as "the doctor" Thus when asked Doctor Who? One will be able to respond.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:43 p.m. CST

    heh. The Question is, "I wonder what This button does...?"

    by Perigee

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:43 p.m. CST

    The ending of Closing Time I think

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor finds out the Cybermen are trying to find a way to convert the Silence.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    The Question is simple -- it's obvious

    by HornOrSilk

    What happens after I die?

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    My question of course is not a spoiler since it is speculation

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 8:28 p.m. CST

    Project Thyrsus Update & How-To

    by veteran_of_mu

    I should immediately declare I am *NOT* attempting to move docbacks from their present home or from Merrick's control. No one suggested that but I want to be clear Thyrsus is a creative project with a different agenda from the wonderful hangout here. 3 decisions made so far on Thyrsus: 1) Thyrsus is a Doctor Who Movie intended to complete within the upcoming 9-month hiatus 2) It will be scripted collaboratively in Trello (because that's free and perfect for collaborative planning and plotting) 3) It will be filmed entirely in Minecraft (because that's free and perfect for collaborative rendering and directing) Up front we have some definitional work to do but I expect that will rapidly turn into a creative pipeline. We're going to need some different kinds of talent: A) Writers. I have a couple of ideas about what I'd like in Thyrsus, but I'm not going to limit it. May the best ideas win. B) Modellers. There's a ton of Minecraft DW scenery and models available, a lot somewhat dodgy looking. We can do better. C) Actors. Yes, minecraft avatars won't exactly let you emote. So we're going to be looking for really great voices. D) Directors. I don't just mean people to yell action and cut. People to block out scenes, figure out angles and lighting, and work with Actors in what is obviously going to be a pretty unusual environment. But what better way to get a start as a Director? To get involved in Thyrsus just make yourself a free account on Trello (preferably under your Docback name) and put up a one line post here on the Docback to let me and the rest of the gang know you're in. I'll add you to the Thyrsus organisation on Trello and we can figure the rest out there. I should note I am not affiliated with the people who make Trello or Minecraft. I just think those are great tools. If you think there are better ways, I'm all ears.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 8:33 p.m. CST

    @horn - I like it.

    by veteran_of_mu

    I can imagine the Doc asking the astronaut that just before getting shot.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 10 p.m. CST

    Underworld Special Edition

    by mascan42

    Seriously, get rid of that fucking awful green screen work.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 11:37 p.m. CST

    I love The Lodger and can't wait to check in on Craig.

    by The Transformed Man

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 11:51 p.m. CST

    hello all!!!! Tardy to the party!!!!! However......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...here I am!!!! Have not had a chance to read all posts yet, but will get through them in the next hour (yes, I have set aside a while so i can get back into this thing after being away) and start up some replies!!!! Firstly- Merrick- there is only ONE DocBack, and here we are. Free from the bilge on other TBs. A haven in a sea of negativity and hostility. You provided this for us, and I will never stop thanking you for it. For agreeing to our rules ands for getting personally involved. You could have told us all to fuck off, but you didn't. You stayed and became personally invested. Two thumbs WAAAAY WAAAAYYYY UP!!!! Nex\t, to thank everyone from the last Docback for their thoughts and their wishes, some not even knowing what the hell was going on. Guys, it really meant one hell of a lot to me and I was overwhelmed with gratitiude. I lost one of my very good friends tragically. We are nearly there. There were some "complications" but now we have a funeral date set. It has been a complete mess in all reality. However, I will not dwell on such things, except to say once again, THANK YOU FELLOW DOCBACKERS!!! YOU ARE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!! SJW

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 11:52 p.m. CST

    Gavin and Stacy

    by The Transformed Man

    Not the type of thing I'd necessarily ever seek out, but BBCA did marathons of the show a while back, and after having it on in the background for a bit I found myself sucked in.

  • Sept. 23, 2011, 11:57 p.m. CST

    MOV- THIS IS THE PLACE TO BE!!!!!!!!!......

    by sam jacksons wig

    If you want comments that are both critical and concise, that have a point to them (well, most of them do) and are for the love of the greatest show on TV. the people are here. Do not accept any inferior copies ( I feel like Simon Bates!!!! Does anyone get that gag??? It WAS rather a long time ago!). Hercs erm..."attempts" at bigging up Who are uncontrolled. They are also filled with useless speculation and attempts to create something that will match a quarter of the post activity you find here. (And that may seem unfair, but I truly do think that.) It AINT COOL and it AINT working. He leaves the doors open and the lights off....and the trolls get in and make a home there. Remember- you are most welcome here. Your chair has been reserved. SJW.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, midnight CST

    Perigee......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ahhhh....sounds cozy! I can already feel my hands slowly sliding their way towards the tobelrone bowl and..... wait!!!!! STOP THIS INSTANT!!!!!! NO FRUIT AND NUT???????????? I have been violated!!!!!! Only dark chocolate left!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Where is Horn when I need him!!!!!????? :)) (sounds of clanking and moaning as SJW heads for the shops....)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:03 a.m. CST

    Doctom- fiiirrrstttt!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!!!!.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    What a feeling!!!!! It has only happened to me once by complete chance (time difference between UK and US) and I remember I just typed YES!!!!!!! and posted, beating christian bale by mere seconds!!!! Ohhhhhhh that felt goooooood!!!!!!! How are you, my friend? I hope that you are well!!! Only 2 more to go!!! :((

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:10 a.m. CST

    Thyrsus is open content

    by veteran_of_mu

    Sorry, I forgot to mention it's not a commercial project. Thyrsus will use a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License ... I think.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:13 a.m. CST

    The lodger...... (revisited)

    by sam jacksons wig

    Most people were put off because of James Corden. As I have said here before, I really enjoyed the vibe of the episode- taking a fat bumbling head-over-heels semi loser, invading his life with a man (kind of) who has seen all of time and space and has it at his command, and injecting him into Craigs life was played expertly. Corden did well here. He does fat stupid loser to a tee. He managed unrequited love without overdoing it. And he played quiet jealousy and resentment without a visit to panto land. I am truly worried, however, by the dynamic we shall see this evening. I hope we don't have more of the same, and shouldn't as Craigs life has moved on. It is only proper that it be scripted by Gareth Roberts, who invented the Craig character and comfortably should have moved him on. As for the Shakespeare code- yes!!!! It was a stand out of series 3 for me (possibly because I love shakespeare and it SHAT all over most peoples images of him!!! ROCK STAR!!!), more so than the Unicorn and the Wasp, which whilst enjoying, (and laughing hard at certain parts) felt could have been improved with absolutely NO DONNA!!! I KID I KID!!!!!!! The episode was very good!!! Even Donna was palatable (tell me there's no Noddy, had me howling with delight!)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:14 a.m. CST

    make me feel whole again...

    by Hideo Kojima

    I'm becoming disillusioned in THE MOFF... last week's episode was OK, but appeared poorly edited and underwritten. I am growing tired of the dei ex machina.. It seems to me most of the episodes this season have been so fast paced, there's no time to breath... you get 35 minutes of (pointless) running around, 5 minutes of resolution (usually done quickly and haphazardly) and if you are lucky a 5 minute denouement. obviously can't blame everything on the moff, but he is the show runner so the onus is on him. what hurts me the most is that series 5 was so exceptional and brilliant that series 6 just fails in comparison IMO. I didn't like the way river was handled (hey! let's go look for her, I know where she is... to lolz our best friend growing up was really our daughter how incredibly wacky and wibbly wobbly and let's kill hitler but not actually have anything to do with the setting of nazi germany other than lolz we are in hitler's office, isn't that craaaazy?) getting tired of the wibbly wobbly crap, in Blink it was a great storytelling mechanic, now it's just another copout.. the repeated jokes are getting lame too, using the same joke too much within the same frigging season (accidentally into leader's office, doctor who?) also hey let's introduce a ton of new characters/factions/etc. and give them 15 minutes of screen time and a two line explanation of who they are in a dialogue.. back story or gripping narrative focusing on their foundation/motives/actions.. nah, that doesn't sell action figures DOCBACKERS, make me feel whole again.. I love WHO but this season has really taken its toll on me. and with two (TWO) episodes left, I feel nervous...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:14 a.m. CST

    Dark Toblerone ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Keep your fruit and nut, Sam, Dark Toblerone IV, stat!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Ithrat- my predictions for tonight......

    by sam jacksons wig

    1) It will have Matt Smith in it. 2) It will contain the use of the word " the" 3) It will absolutely nothing to do with Branston pickle. And I'm willing to put the house on it.......

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:16 a.m. CST

    that being said I'm still excite for the docback and of course WHO

    by Hideo Kojima

    got a joint, a pork and beef pasty and a TOBLERONE I'm ready.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:18 a.m. CST

    that reilly monster - welcome back to the docback...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..the one true original certified and officially sttamped for authenticity. Hope you have a great time here!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:20 a.m. CST

    Doctom- what the HELL is a krimpet?????...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...WE MUST KNOW Across the pond!!!! However, we do have liquorice shoe laces here. They are cooooooooooooool.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:23 a.m. CST

    krimpets are tastycake products

    by Hideo Kojima

    like

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:24 a.m. CST

    a sponge cake with flavored icing on top

    by Hideo Kojima

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:24 a.m. CST

    MJG/chucknorris.......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...something did invade the Tardis. the voice at the end of series 5. And the fact thatt she was set on self destruct. Something did get in. Most have been asking the question what, when we shoud be asking how? Who let it in? This has never been resolved. Are we meant to believe that the silence did it? Okay. but the silence are an organisation. It could have been anything, not necessarily the arse-faced monsters with overlong philanges. Thoughts????

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:29 a.m. CST

    The Silence in The Tardis

    by Hideo Kojima

    Silents? Whichever are the creatures that make you forget and look like grey aliens from Pleiades (don't ask) someone asked about them being in the Tardis earlier and wasn't there one in there when they put their little recorders on?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:33 a.m. CST

    New information regarding satellite falling to Earth.

    by Hideo Kojima

    Sources inside NASA have stated that, upon further analysis, the object previously thought to be a malfunctioning satellite is in fact a giant blue box. Officials are unsure of the origins, and are investigating further. More information will be released when it is known.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:35 a.m. CST

    @Hideo on LKH ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Let's consider the alternative for a moment. Doc lands in Nazi Germany. Walks out of the TARDIS, looks around, and sighs. Marches back into the TARDIS. Mels is still shaking her wrist from where the Doc knocked the gun out of her hand with a Venusian karate chop. ~Well?~ she says. ~Well?~ says Amy, ~Aren't you going to go out and do something about that lot?~ Grim-faced the Doc bangs the doors, presses buttons, pushes levers. TARDIS starts and stops. He throws open the doors and walks out into ... WW1 trenches. Body parts in every direction. Doc motions his companions out. A bomb whistles overhead and the gloom is lit by an explosion. Clouds of mustard gas roll by not far enough away. ~All right, you lot~ says the Doc, ~you pick. Find me the people here whose lives made the Nazis happen. Because I've tried over and over and over. You think the Nazis originally started with a one-balled house painter? Think how ridiculous that is! As far as I can tell the Nazis were the end product of centuries of inhumane child-rearing practices. Hitler was just one of thousands of abused children vying to rule his generation. So, go ahead, you pick out their parents. They're RIGHT HERE! And I can't pick 'em out.~ Amy pipes up. ~Can't you find them with the screwdriver?~ Doc shakes his head, furious. Mels says, ~One of the scanners in the blue box?~ Doc ignores her. Rory says, ~Maybe if we went back further - fixed the problem before it starts -~ Doc explodes. ~What do you think I've been doing with my life? All the suffering, all that violence and waste, all the children screaming 0 all of it - as far as I can tell, just bloody well has to happen. It's not some fixed point in time. It's the process. Civilization - which my mate Winston says is the regulation of society by the opinions of civilians - has to evolve. And evolution means death. The terrible, horrible death of all these millions so that just a few civilized sausages like you three - well, I think like you three, who can tell - can stand up on their hind legs and act like people.~ Rory says, ~Oh. All right then.~ Amy says, ~Who's for tea?~

  • ...the connection between a parent and a child is sometimes instantaneous. There is a bond between mother and child whilst it is carried in the womb and nurtured- some women have likended it to the baby not being a separate entity but actually a functioning part of her own anatomy. You have quite a valid point regarding early separation of Amy from her child, and her feelings towards it after only thinking she was pregnant, then finding out the truth. My take on it has been that (because I don't believe we shall ever have this fully explained) she certainly has felings for the baby. This was proven in AGMGTW and her interaction with her child and her husband. She had suffered severe trauma, and had yet to get used to the fact of being a mother proper. That connection I spoke of wasn't quite there. We then get the double whammy (CHAMP KIND!! SPORTS!!! sorry......) of the baby being taken from her again. Whilst being obviously upset, the mother-infant bond wasn't yet cohesive. We then have River saying "I am your daughter" in some alternate Empire Strikes Back way, which FURTHER hits Amy emotionally. We have the fact she spent her childhood and susequent years with her daughter IN DISGUISE (kind of) and that quadruple whammy......... Is it any wonder that now, knowing her daughter is safe and will grow up to become River, and that any meddling in the past may have DIRE consequences (it already has, hasn't it???) and that she will get to see her again, that she stops mentioning the baby Melody??? And how annoying would it be every episode with her harping on every two seconds of Doc- you promised to find my child..... ..I agree, we have not had a final resolution to the issue and have not had all questions answered to some peoples liking, but I fear what we have had is all we are going to get.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:45 a.m. CST

    horn- yup!!!! The photos are a massive clue.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...to the alternate time line we have been blathering on about for the last god knows how many weeks. There are time issues as we well know. And one of them is certainly about to become closed forever, which may lead into the end of the final episode with the payoff we see Amy standing with her baby.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:04 a.m. CST

    To second v'shael completely.... DON'T feed the trolls!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:13 a.m. CST

    caractacus.... I can't keep the fruit and nut!!! It wasn't there!!!!!....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...a huge oversight!!!!!! the combination of the fruit and of the nut and of the erm....fruit. Pure class!!!! Dark chocolate V- the aftertaste......

  • ..... personally, I am enjoying this series as it is so radically differentt from anything I have seen in Who. Moff promised us a ghost train, and for me he has delivered. What we have is alot darker (aaahhhggg!!! I hate that silly bloody cliche) than before, and is such a refreshing change. If we had the same as last year I would have enjoyed, no doubt, but I would hav e also been mightily disappointed. Some are fed up of the overall story arc. For me, it has added intrigue, and whilst not perfect (what is, eh??) I find myself wanting to travel to the resolution of certain things with these characters. We have had Rory change from a buffoon into a solid character who we feel for. We emote with. We respect him now. That is a revelation in itself. We have Amy, who has undergone all manners of trilas and tribulations and has blown us away in TGWW- with newfound admiration for some and a deepening love for others. We have Matt Smith, who (a couple of minor blips aside) is now the Doctor. He has this year made the role his own. The material caters to him and he deliveres with aplomb. We have had some blistering episodes- the opening 2 parter with a new character in Canton Delaware, who I want to travel with again. The Doctors wife- the sublime Suranne Jones with the stand out performance of the series. The mother of all twists in rebel flesh and almost people that literally took our breath away (v'shaels response of NOW THAT'S HOW YOU DO A FUCKING ENDING has forever stuck in my mind as an absolute truth). More fleshed out roles for Dorium, who is being given more screetime and chews it with gusto. The bizarre world of minotaurs, puppets, clowns and deep dark nightmares I didn't expect to find but marvelled at when they danced before my eyes. We have a question to find. We have silence to shatter. In short, it is everything I have wanted and more. Sure, there are blips. There always are. It's what you take in personally that matters. And it's what you bring out with you that keeps you going back for more. SJW.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:33 a.m. CST

    SAM!!!!!!!!!!

    by Kevin Bolinger

    So nice to see you. Hope you, along with the others, get a kick out of the little Who tale I am concocting. It is not complicated, a one off story, so to speak. Made good progress on starting it today. Hope to have it done by the time we get to the classic Docbacks in 2 weeks. :)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:34 a.m. CST

    I now want a tastycake. No fair. :((

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:45 a.m. CST

    Weird.

    by veteran_of_mu

    I happened to look at some Tennant images the other day having not watched him in the role for a while. And ... he didn't look like the Doctor. I know that's not fair to him. Just my brain playing tricks. But for the life of me I could only see him as David Tennant. I don't have that problem with any of the earlier Doctors. Even CB still looks like the Doctor to me. So it's weird. Maybe there's something about Smith's performance that kind of cancels Tennant out. I mean imagine Tennant swanning about with River and the Ponds (that should be the name of an indie band by the way). Can you picture it? I can't. Am I the only one afflicted by Smith burn-in this way?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:47 a.m. CST

    doctom= have checked out the pictures.. (spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....and can honestly say that the viking whatever looks eerily like Mark Gatiss, as I speculated a couple of weeks ago. We certainly are in bizzaro world here, aren't we? Looks like we may be revisiting the pandorica afterall, which would be great! We find out that norse-gatiss is the one that has been manipulating things since before the events of the pandorica, and that he has been playing chess with destiny...(yeah...it sounds a little fenric-like). (by the way, that last sentence wasn't a statement of fact, just a poorly phrased speculation on my part) The silence things in the tank will turn out to be experiments; creations by a highter deity to confuse humanity into thinking their existence in this reality is solid (and the creators of the matrix will call their lawyers..) when infact reality is an illusion. One brought about by an explosion and the creation of an alternate universe and an alternate timeline. And now for something completely different......... SJW. p.s- if any of the above happens to be dipped in the smallest amount of fact I will paint my bottom blue and parade around times square dressed as an onion.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:51 a.m. CST

    my youngest daughter is eating grapes for breakfast....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I am now on my 5th cup of coffee. I still feel frigging shattered!!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:52 a.m. CST

    11 hours and 20 minutes until we are dis-lodged.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:55 a.m. CST

    caractacus- no mate, you're not....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...my eldest daughter said to me the other week that Smith had washed the taste of Tennant from her mouth. As I was getting my coat and going for my shotgun she frantically told me that she meant Smith was now THE Doctor, and she couldn't see Tennant in the role. She felt wierd going back and wattching him. I put my coat back in the porch and secured my firearm. TWO LIVES SAVED THERE, THEN!!!! ;) Let's see the bastards regenerate from that!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:58 a.m. CST

    darthdevious - I am looking forward to it, my friend!!!....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..thank you sincerely for your well wishes last week! Please. for me, your tale should contain the following: A tin of tuna. Amy Pond. three huge cucumbers. a swedish sure-grip suck machine. Ofcouse I kid!!!!! I know it will be a thing of sheer awesomeness!!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2 a.m. CST

    caractacus- can you post a link to your half arsed theories??????

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...need to go back and revist them without looking through 10 million posts.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:02 a.m. CST

    My only quibbles

    by tomdolan04

    They've repeatedly said it is the Doctor that dies, stating implicitly on occasion that it is the 'authentic' Doctor. In terms of writing if it turns out to be a Ganger or the Tessa, then it's going to be a lame duck. Yes - the Doctor lies. But multiple people have rammed this point home. <p> Secondly they had someone shoot the Doctor dead. The only way to resolve this in the finale is either 'alternate timeline Doctor got shot' or resorting to 'timey wimey logic'. This throwaway line was great for one off 'Blink', but hinging your whole series around it? It's the equivalent of an eight year old writing themselves into a corner and then proclaiming it was all a dream. <p> Thirdly and perhaps the sticking point - so much of season 6 has rested upon the Silence/River/Melody. This makes standalone episodes problematic as thematically it's jarring for them to push this arc so hard and then have the characters just sit back and not mention any of the issues the following week ('b-b-b-bbbut teh silence could have made them forget!'). As a viewer if you didn't particularly care for the central plotline this series, there wasn't much else of substance bar (for me) the quite great Doc's Wife and Girl Who Waited ep's (although the Arc-centric Lets Kill Hitler was a good enough romp). <p> I do both appreciate the bravery to try and do something so arc-heavy and involved for a tea-time family show though and that Moff has said Series 7 will be more standalone focused. It's just when Who shines, it REALLY shines. <p> Besides - without Who, these Docbacks wouldn't exist. Some of the gloriously convoluted theories and insanely intricate explanations of what to the writers are just ambiguous cock teases. I'm half expecting to be in the pub one day and see someone wearing a shirt that says 'I still believe Amy's house is a Tardis mofo!'.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:05 a.m. CST

    Only question I have...

    by Peter

    ...is how Steven Moffat is going to weave all the elements of the finale together, with Roman Emperors, Pyramids, Vikings, Churchill, the Silence, Madame Kovarian, the Ponds, Lake Silencio and more! Here's my prediction; you won't be bored!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:14 a.m. CST

    @Sam ... but ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Tom Baker is still the Doctor. Pertwee, Troughton, Davison, all of them are still the Doc. This cognitive dissonance only affects Tennant. BTW, curious about your take on the Thyrus idea. Not strong-arming you at all - probably not your cuppa. But wandering if you'd have any advice. I seem to recall darthdevious and ithrat putting up their hands but wouldn't hold them to it. Maybe it needs a premise ...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:18 a.m. CST

    petermck

    by tomdolan04

    Add to that list the rumoured prehistoric beasts running around the present, River Song, tying the Silence into last years Big Bang...<p> It's got to the point where Moff's thrown lots of eggs into the air (which was his choice) over two seasons and he's got one (probably extended to an hour) episode to do it since tonights appearing to be standalone-ish (although I expect the finale 10min will play as the beginning of the start of next weeks episode if that makes ANY sense). <p> I'm intrigued to see what Moff comes up with, though creatively I'm at a loss as to why in terms of writing you would want to leave the last episode to resolve EVERYTHING - you can write a good conclusion without leaving everything until the last chapter. With so much to do it's like writing a romantic novel with so many trials and tribulations for the protagonists, layers upon layers of them and then in the last chapter writing "And then everything resolved itself, the couple didn't die because...timey wimey stuff happened, all the rival love interests dropped dead and they all lived happily ever after".

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:32 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by Kevin Bolinger

    one of the reasons I am writing my little who story at the moment is to see how well I do in that universe. I would like to get this small feel before jumping into your project, just so I dont screw it up...I think I am doing well so far, but still have a few days of hand writing, then revision before I type it up and post. Hopefully you can wait. Also, a premise is needed to get my ideas jumpstarted lol...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:43 a.m. CST

    @darthdevious

    by veteran_of_mu

    No worries. If you and anyone would like an idea about the structure I'm thinking of for this thing, check out https://trello.com/thyrsus . Once we start scripting we'll remove public visibility for that part of the organisation. But for now I'll copy in the HATs there for Sam's benefit.

  • .... and for that reason alone, I fear for the final episode more than I have any other in memory. In keeping his secrets firmly under wraps until this final moment, in order (IMHO) to be able not to give anything away, we have spent the last however many weeks theorising and going backwards and forwards with one amazing idea after another, which, let's face it, the final episode will NEVER be able to match. It all hinges on this. next year hinges on a last hour where we will all be blown away by what we find out, or still be scratching our heads in confusion. Worse, a resounding MEH for what should have been a balls-to-the-wall piece of television. What gives me some hope is AGMGTW. For the majority of it I was mesmirised by what unfolded, and then felt it fell flat at the very end with the reveal that River was blah blah blah. We don't have this here. None of us have a fucking clue as to what we will eventually see (god willing). This will either be a complete non starter or play advantageous. In any way, we will not see every question get answered. For some that will be more than enough to debunk the entire series to a collection of short thrusts before premature ejaculation. That WILL hurt Who, especially as I stated, going into next year and the potential numbers. Moff REALLY Really needs to give us something special and a resolute payoff to most things. Here's hoping.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:10 a.m. CST

    That chalk drawing

    by gotilk

    .. is one of the most wonderful, adorable things I have ever seen. AND What sort of alchemists are this girl's parents anyway???? lol

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:17 a.m. CST

    If I had been six or eight years old

    by gotilk

    the first time I watched Who, I would have certainly been obsessed with drawing Daleks. But sadly (and interestingly) found myself drawing my visions of creatures I read about in my (missing) dad's weird collection of UFO/Ancient Astronauts books. It was all I had left to connect with my father, his books. Rather sad story, huh? I still have a painting I did on wood of a UFO sending a beam of light/information down to a pyramid from when I was about 6 or 7. I cherish it. Talk about a great *seed* for a Doctor Who story, eh? We reconnected later in life. It all worked out. And I have him to thank for both my skepticism (oddly, I know, long story) and deep interest in science fiction. Be well, DocBackers... I will catch up tomorrow.

  • Caractacus, without knowing anything about your upcoming project, I have to say that I am intrigued how you will pull this off with the Doc as the Bacchus character. The enitre subplot, I take it, will be based around the mythology and the rituals? How do you intend to incorporate the phallic imagery and it's connotations? Sounds very interesting.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:21 a.m. CST

    I still believe Amy's house is a Tardis

    by gotilk

    I would so buy that shirt. Someone, quick... to cafepress.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:21 a.m. CST

    Oh and Tom Baker IS the Doctor.... for now ;))

    by sam jacksons wig

    Maybe it has to do with the fact that Smith succeded Tennant, and has managed to eradicate Mr davids own specific mileu.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:24 a.m. CST

    ..and one last thing, I have to agree with SJW

    by gotilk

    and will be keeping my expectations in check. My hopes, however, will remain in the clouds where they belong.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:32 a.m. CST

    FREE MERRICK'S DOCTOR WHO REVIEWS!

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    DOWN WITH COWARDLY BBC AMERICA!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:33 a.m. CST

    Gotilk-

    by sam jacksons wig

    Not sad, but inspiring. I have nothing left of my childhood.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:55 a.m. CST

    CBTML- welcome back!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I hope you have managed to sort out all of your personal stuff and are now much better. Good to have you here again!!! SJW.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:58 a.m. CST

    Nice link on Doctor as Dionysus ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QUANTAVOL/fnb_docs/fnb_1.pdf

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:59 a.m. CST

    Glad to see you back, Sam!

    by HornOrSilk

    The place is never the same without you!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:59 a.m. CST

    I'm thinking it is not Fenric now -- my idea

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor has to play him a game of chess; if the Doctor wins, he will show the Doctor something...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4 a.m. CST

    Bring on the Cybermats!

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:01 a.m. CST

    @Sam - a cure

    by veteran_of_mu

    Just watched Forest of the Dead and I can think of Tennant as the Doc again. The interaction with River helps. Also check out Donna's reaction when she finds out her children aren't real. Puts Amy in the shade.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:28 a.m. CST

    Questions for today

    by HornOrSilk

    Is that Craig's baby? Is it River Song as a baby? Do converted Cybermen obey the command of the Silent to kill them? What kind of Cybermen are these? Where is Sophie?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:17 a.m. CST

    Horn- you are far too kind my friend...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..and thank you. It is so good to be back.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:20 a.m. CST

    caractacus- I would watch the library 2 parter again....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...but unfortunately it contains 2 things I am not fond of- Donna and Donna. arf arf!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:31 a.m. CST

    Sam -- you are welcome

    by HornOrSilk

    But, when you are otherwise not in the DocBacks due to life, the place always pales in comparison. It's always better when more true fans with the right spirit come in and talk -- the more of such fans, the merrier it gets, and the more diverse the talk! You are one of the people I always look forward to for reactions. Of course, I for forward to all reactions, but I know I will get something good from you.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:32 a.m. CST

    Nonetheless -- good reviews, doesn't mean I will agree

    by HornOrSilk

    I like Donna, you don't.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:55 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by gotilk

    Fantastic link! Thank you! Reading chapter 5 now, will go back and read the whole. Fascinating!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:01 a.m. CST

    Good Morning Companions!

    by Perigee

    All is right with the world - the False One has fallen, we are off to a quick dominance on the big board, a new episode is imminent, Sammy's home, and work is done for the week. I feel like a new man. Merrick - here we all are, kissin' yer butt; the least you can do is come in and blush for the masses. Say howdy, smile and wave - noblesse oblige, boy. Same for you MOV - there we were, defending your honor in the Land of the Trogs: come on in and bat your eyelashes at us. Visshy, wherefore art thou? The quorum is incomplete without you; say a few syllables.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:02 a.m. CST

    Sammy - You don't like Donna??!!!

    by Perigee

    I KNEW there was a reason you are my best beloved.... ~Grin~

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:09 a.m. CST

    Believe me, I have tried depserately to find the Donna love.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... but it just isn't there. There is no connection at all between myself and the character. I have to be able to like and form some kind of emotional bond, and with Tate's turn in the blue box, I couldn't make it happen. The Runaway Bride started it- I found her immensely disagreeable, and was quite possibly in the minority of those that thought she deserved what she got. At the beginning of S4 I once again tried to invest my faith, but the opening episode partners in Crime was weak, poorly written, with a plot I frankly didn't give two stuffs for. Pompeii was brilliant, but not for her. I found her tearful act annoying, especially when we saw it over and over again (library 2 parter, OOD episode..) and as for the DoctorDonna- well, that just put the icing onto a very underdone cake. She had moments of brilliance (the afore-mentioned Noddy line being one of them) but not enough for her to be endeared to me in any way. I cared more for Bernard Cribbins than her- it was he who saw me through most of that series. Also, her mum....fuck. I hated the bitch. There just wasn't much at all for me to like. It is, however, fantastic that others have found affection for her. I would like to know how they managed it. SJW.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:10 a.m. CST

    So Moff isn't writing either of the season 6 finale episodes?

    by Smashing

    That's a little unusual for a show runner isn't it? also I didn't realise the season would end with two stand alone episodes, that's also unusual isn't it? Still broad daylight when it airs in September BTW, no falling leaves, dark nights, or even autumn due to the fact September is still light and bright. Worth mentioning I feel.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:12 a.m. CST

    Horn- I am once again humbled.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...thank you. It is very much appreciated. Pales in comparison.... wow!! Blown away I am!! Truly truly blown away!! Just....... wow.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:12 a.m. CST

    @Sam - HATs on Project Thyrsus site

    by veteran_of_mu

    https://trello.com/board/scripting/4e7c91bf65c497f8e3bdfc17 If you're going to rewatch either of the last two week's episodes you will probably want to read these first.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:17 a.m. CST

    Great link!!!!! I will immerse myself in it soon....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..but first...to count..... these candles........ 1... ha ha HA 2.. ha ha HA 3... ha ha HA.....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:18 a.m. CST

    Not a lot of Silents in The Silence...

    by Perigee

    Y'know, the hour is young, but I just realized something. Up at Demon's Run, we didn't see a single MIB alien. You would think, if allies, they'd be around there somewhere. What do you suppose their function is? Are they just Kovarian's pig slaves? What are they getting out of all this?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:23 a.m. CST

    IELTS Leather Mall

    by rxdes

    <p><a href="http://www.yasbuy.com/">Leather</a></p>

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:25 a.m. CST

    Sam -- as for Donna

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't know why, but I liked her; I think it is because she is the modern Tegan and it was nice to get rid of all the "I love the Doctor" tales we had.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:26 a.m. CST

    perigee -- Silents

    by HornOrSilk

    You know, I think there is something with them and the Cybermen, a connection we have yet to see and might see today. But I wouldn't be surprised if they are still the ones in control; if they created the Silence through suggestion.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:28 a.m. CST

    smashing- Moff has writen the last episode in the series 6....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..where did you hear otherwise? Info has been available for ages that he is writing the last one.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:30 a.m. CST

    (An Aside - I Farking LOVE A Good Man...)

    by Perigee

    You can keep the rest of the season, if I can keep that. What an episode...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:36 a.m. CST

    perigee-

    by sam jacksons wig

    Ah...my best beloved is here. Time to put my face on.. Nope- no Donna love. Least favourite of nu-who companions and certainly down there with the likes of Harry and Adric(k) (BBWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Where is Horn???!!). As for the silence, or, more to the point our MIB arse faced aliens, they are just clones or foot soldiers for a bigger bad, one that will no doubt make their presence known shortly. There have been people I know ranting on about their lack of presence this series. I simply said.. "Shut the fuck up!!! You know NOTHING!! NOTHING, DO YOU HEAR ME???!!!" ;)) Erm.. no I didn't. I DID say that we will see more of them (proof has now been provided) in these last 2 episodes, and more than likely find out their reason for being in the show. Now, I must find my best dress- just for you....

  • Since she has one of those (assumed) Silents patches, and nobody else on Demon's Run did... Now That's a fun theory - all of the Silence Order, created by suggestion of The Silents in order to smash The Doctor... ... I like it! (Sorry for the late - got tied up in A Good Man...)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:39 a.m. CST

    As for the false one......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...what a fucking cock up that was, eh? I felt like I had to wash my eyes out after being on that piece of shit forum. Never again. One of the most awful things I have ever seen or been involved with. Made me think of the bad old days, and how fucking priviledged we are to have what we have.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:41 a.m. CST

    to SJW

    by Chris

    to confuse humanity into thinking their existence in this reality is solid (and the creators of the matrix will call their lawyers..) when in fact reality is an illusion.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:43 a.m. CST

    Sam -- yes, the DocBacks are unique

    by HornOrSilk

    As we can see when Hercules tries to do one but doesn't manage it. If he managed it, it would have been fine.. but he let the trolls reign.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:43 a.m. CST

    So, whatcha thinking, Sam - Boycott the False Ones?

    by Perigee

    I'm all in - with pleasure. The less I deal with The Troggs here in AICN proper, the more stable my blood pressure.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:44 a.m. CST

    perigee - she might also be under their control

    by HornOrSilk

    Which, if rumors are true, might explain some of Amy's reactions in the last episode...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:44 a.m. CST

    But I still think there is a Cyberman/Silence connection

    by HornOrSilk

    What happens when a Silent is converted?

  • ...maybe the entire alliance we saw in S5. Something had to lead to that and I think it's the events we are experiencing now. Thoughts??

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:53 a.m. CST

    Horn- there was an element of attraction between the Doc and Donna....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..however it was very slight.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:53 a.m. CST

    Sam -- I agree, I think the alliance should come back

    by HornOrSilk

    But I wonder if there might be two cyber-fleets or something; I am also thinking maybe what we see today is a ship sent back in time/place after the Doctor and Rory's attack on the Cybermen. What if one of the Cyberships had the Silents in it, and the Doctor's attack on the Cyberflet set into motion the Silents being on earth?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:54 a.m. CST

    SJW Yep, lost the point I was going for

    by Chris

    Dr Who had the matrix of the Time Lords' experience more than 20 years before the Wachowski (sp?) brothers decided to borrow it. I'm looking forward to tonight's episode and will set the DVR to make sure if something happens, I get to see it.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:55 a.m. CST

    The endless war

    by HornOrSilk

    A time loop created by the Doctor?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:55 a.m. CST

    It's an interesting concept that leaves The Question moot

    by Perigee

    If The Silence is under suggestion, their motivation - "The Question" - is entirely fictitious. Unless The Question is "Where did you get this idea...?" In which case the suggestion falls apart entirely, because it's a question they can not answer.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:58 a.m. CST

    Here's something... an idea..

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor creates a time loop by accident, with a never-ending war that have the Silence going around in circles. The Silents know only one way out.. Silence must fall, the universe must be destroyed. They have to create cracks in time to break through the time loop. They must let themselves lose to win..

  • ..unless it is either run by Merrick or an official (yeah!!! official!!) DocBack. Fuck the rest. I can't be bothered with the stupid fucks who frequent them. Herc needs to hang his fucking head in shame.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:59 a.m. CST

    perigee the question might be moot or

    by HornOrSilk

    It could be what the Silence used to help create a religious devotion (transforming one kind of faith into a new one -- think God Complex). So it could be a real question, but the Silence have used it for their own end.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:01 a.m. CST

    Horn- Herc didn't have a fucking clue.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and that may sound harsh, but I really think he tries it to garner as many posts as these threads get. Stupid headlines. No factual information. No control. Avoiding from now on. let the trolls have them.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:03 a.m. CST

    Puppet Masters. Heinlein.

    by Perigee

    The Silents wanted the cracks. The Silents were "in" the cracks, and wanted to get out. The cracks appeared when the TARDIS blew. The Silents engineered the destruction of the TARDIS. The Silents created the alliance that stopped The Doctor from preventing the TARDIS from exploding. The Doctor goes into the cracks. The Silents create The Order of the Silents to take out The Doctor. Apart from an amount of "Chicken-or-the-egg" paradox, it's a pretty solid theory.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:06 a.m. CST

    just being press ganged into re-watching the Lodger by my 10 year old...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...who has threatened an embargo on kisses and hugs if I don't comply. I have given in.....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:07 a.m. CST

    Puppets ARE a theme this season..

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:07 a.m. CST

    Enjoy the Lodger again

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:13 a.m. CST

    I think we might be giving these MIB bastards more credit than they deserve...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... I think they are merely foot soldiers, pawns if you will (chess, anyone???) for something much worse. They control nothing. They are under orders. They have no motivation except to serve. They are merely a conduit to find the question.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:17 a.m. CST

    pilgrim064 - thanks mate.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..yeah, agree. the point I was going for is from a litigeous point of view, people nowerdays are quick to sue for almost anything. It was a very slight joke that I am afraid no-one got, and I was quick to brush under the carpet by forgetting it ever happened. What happened? Where am I? I don't remember.... what joke?????? ;))

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:19 a.m. CST

    crash landing from the cyberfleet that got blown up by Rory and the Doc.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... that's my theory, which will be proven wrong almost immediately after the episode starts. BAH!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Brain fart moment.......

    by sam jacksons wig

    *****The Silents engineered the destruction of the TARDIS. The Silents created the alliance that stopped The Doctor from preventing the TARDIS from exploding***** So, they blew it up, and then didn't want it blown up?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Sam -- ah but again

    by HornOrSilk

    I think the cycle goes into a never-ending war; we might see the scared, surviving Silents in the 60s, but I think they are more than that and at the height of the war, they are in charge. It goes into circles, and why it is a never-ending war; they needed River Song to break out of the time loop... I think Time Lords in general have ability to manipulate outcomes more than mere time travelers, and can break through all kinds of time traps... River, I also think, doesn't know she is meant to do that...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:24 a.m. CST

    Sam -- I think the idea (not mine)

    by HornOrSilk

    Is that by trying to stop the Doctor from having the TARDIS destroyed -- the alliance made sure it happened via River Song. I think there might even have been some sort of command in her she didn't know she had which made her do something to blow up the TARDIS. And the Silent talking to her made her do it...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:25 a.m. CST

    And so if the alliance had not been made

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor would never have left the TARDIS and let River use it like he did.. Anyway I think that is what the theory above suggests. I still like our idea that the Doctor somehow created the alliance better.

  • See what happens when things are managed in the correct way, Herc?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:28 a.m. CST

    Sam what is even better than being #1

    by HornOrSilk

    Being #1 with good discussions instead of a lot of trolling being used to create numbers.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:32 a.m. CST

    Gaaah. So many questions...

    by Perigee

    We just don't know enough. 1) What is The Silent's ultimate goal? Killing The Doctor just leads the way... 2) Why did they need a spacesuit? 3) Why did they need to put the kid in the spacesuit? 4) Is there a Silent's reason for the Astronaut - in a spacesuit - in Silencio? 5) Is The Silence we heard about in 5 the same (as in, fully plotted out in advance) as The Silents we have seen in 6 - or are they just making this up as they go along? And, if they are, why does almost every alien in 5 Know about The Silence except The Doctor? 6) Why is every alien in season 5 so concerned that The Silence Will Fall, if they Are the order and not the MIBS? Or even if they ARE the MIBs? 7) All the aliens that did spout The Silence Will Fall were from the other side of the crack. Prisoner Zero. Vampire Fish. All came from the crack. But The Doctor knew both species, so it's not like they were Buckaroo Banzai's Lectoids from the 8th Dimension... so what, exactly, Is the other side of the crack? 6) Does The Doctor/Ponds/River remember The Silents exist at all during the majority of this season?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:35 a.m. CST

    It's all before you

    by HornOrSilk

    The eye patch has all the answers, and even the question... lol

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:38 a.m. CST

    Spacesuit theory...

    by Perigee

    OK - now we know River is Time-headed. Could the modified space suit that 'ate' the kid be use to tap the 'aura' (for lack of a better word) of a Time Lord? Gather something, some kind of energy from her, like a battery? And was the energy released from The Doctor also collected by the suit for some nefarious, yet unknown purpose?

  • ...oooh look!!!! A pink elephant!!!!!!!....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:03 a.m. CST

    perigee-

    by sam jacksons wig

    1) to find the question and reboot the universe? (again?) 2) the time child was a creation that needed a life support mechanism (wasn't this mentioned in DOTM??) 3) see answer 2. 4) I think they sent the astronaut to bump off the Doc, and thought they had placed something inside, which will turn out to be a swerve by the Doc. 5) Maybe there was a spark of an idea which mutated into something else. It certainly feels this way to me. 6) We are in an alternate time line. Things are differentt here. 7) They weren't from the other side of the crack. They saw the cracks and what was behind them. That is why they fled to another place and time. To avoid the cracks. 8) I think the Doc has something up his sleeve. He remembers and knows more than we think he does. After all, he's the Doctor.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:38 a.m. CST

    Special Editions

    by Rebel Scumb

    Earthshock was GREATLY improved with the SE due to one SFX change, which was plot pivotal I'll try and keep it spoiler free and in general terms but there is a very important moment in the story where a spaceship crashes into a planet, but the SFX shot is just a static shot of the ship in space, then an implied explosion. But you don't see the crash, or the ship moving, or even the planet in the distance. So the story is telling you one thing, but the visuals another. In the SE the ship is scene to actual crash on the planet as it should.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:40 a.m. CST

    Just watched Masque of Mandragora

    by Rebel Scumb

    It was quite good, really great costumes and set design on that one, and some good supporting players. SJ was at her all time cutest in that one to I think.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Series 1 rewatch

    by Rebel Scumb

    I finished it all. Overall thoughts, 'the empty child' is still quite amazing, but I found it far less creepy knowing the super happy ending we get with that one. I had forgotten just how shockingly violent the RTD episodes are compared to the moffat ones. In every single episode we have unarmed innocent people begging for their lives before facing a horrible death. The Bad Wolf/Parting of Ways 2 parter was especially disturbing (but then deadly gameshows have always touched a nerve with me for some reason) . Not to rouse up an argument, but I find it interesting that so many people feel deeply offended by the gay content in the RTD episodes, yet nobody seems concerned about enormous body counts in every episode. Reminds me of when I worked in a video store in the 1990s and mothers would return STARSHIP troopers, and complain that they showed it to their 8 year old and didn't know there was nudity in it. I would always respond 'but the horrific R rated levels of violence weren't a problem?' Anyways, overall I think series 1 holds up really well. I actually really like Boomtown which I know a lot of people don't. The ending with Eccelstons 'but you know what, so was I' still chokes me up. Now 'the christmas invasion' on the other hand I consider to be quite weak. I'm also reliving the difficult transition from Eccelston to Tennant all over again. I grew to love Tennant, but as I've mentioned in previous docbacks, it took about half of series 2 for him to find his version of the doctor in my opinion. And the immediate diminished chemistry between him and Rose compared to eccelston and rose didn't help. For me the real tennant stuff is series 3-4, that is when he really shined.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:48 a.m. CST

    anyways...

    by Rebel Scumb

    I will return once I see tonights episode, which for most of you will be tomorrow as I don't usually have it until after 10pm Toronto time.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    TIA: What Has River Got In Her Handbag?

    by veteran_of_mu

    Okay, let's say that really is the Doctor, and that he really is dead. Immediately upon his death, before even shooting at the astronaut, River scanned the Doc's body with a strange device we've never seen before or since. On one side it has ten black bars. The other side has some buttons. It is large enough to hold in two hands and it makes beeping noises. Let us assume that River does not normally walk around with a timelord-tricorder in her special belt pocket. Let us likewise assume that if the Doctor wanted her to bring a certain bit of kit, he'd have told her so in his letter. Special equipment like the neural recorder from of the Library Sonic.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:12 a.m. CST

    SJW - late, but nevertheless: Sorry for your loss, lad!

    by wtriker1701

    Had something similar a few years back, tragic accident, slightly over fourty, gone forever! He'd been a very good friend for my wife an me. I feel your loss! Hope you'll get stronger by the weeks passing by. It's never easy, it takes time, it involves many good memories - and bad memories of that friends final moments, if even just imagined... so I guess, I know exactly, what you're going through, Sam. Greetings from Germany, near Bremen!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:25 a.m. CST

    Sam - Why does a kid need life support space suit?

    by Perigee

    She was doing OK as a baby, she was doing OK when she made the call to Nixon, and she did OK from Mels on. I'm not quite buying the life-support aspect.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - Tricorder

    by Perigee

    I haven't gone back to check either one, but she did have a handheld trike thingie in The Pandorica Opens, and I seem to remember one in the Agels episodes. Don't know if they are the same or not, but we do know she does carry a trike.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:34 a.m. CST

    wtriker.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..my German is pretty poor, but Vielen Dank für Ihre guten Wünsche. It was and is a very sad time, but we are nearly there and the healing can begin. Besten Wünschen für Sie und Ihre Familie. SJW.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:37 a.m. CST

    caractacus- I think (IMHO)...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..we will not return to the library or any of its contents or plot points. I have always wanted a tie-in of sorts, but fear it shall never been seen. Shame.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:45 a.m. CST

    various quick orders of business

    by Merrick

    *** Moving forward, I'll post a weekly DW news round-up at the top of every Friday Docback, regardless of whether that news has already been posted on AICN. We've actually done this a few times already - although not consistently - now we'll make it standard practice. If I miss something, shout it out and I'll add more into my post. It might be best to focus only on the larger/more relevant news stories - should there be any that week. *** EVIDENTLY we're back on track with BBC. Not sure what happened. That's not me being coy or political - there are still a number of mysteries surrounding that blackout, but what counts in these cases are the end results. The "Day of the Daleks" vid mentioned in my piece above? If all goes well, we'll have it for you in a few days. *** Saw "Closing Time" last night. It's now so close to airing I won't bother to whip-up a spoiler-free review, but I *will* say it very much ramps-up to the Season/Series' final episode both emotionally and narratively. A magnificent, magnificent moment in which The Doctor sights an old friend. "Wedding of River Song." Gonna have to watch it about ten more times before I manage a full grasp on it. It's fast, bouncy, fun. ENTIRELY different tone than S5's "Pandorica"/"Big Bang." There is some S6 resolution, and some notable lack of resolution. Groundwork is laid for upcoming Season/Series mythology? Or, will we ever actually *see* said mythology unfold? 'Tis not required in order for it to remain effective/important. You'll figure out what I mean rather early on. Longer "Wedding" write-up on Friday.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:03 a.m. CST

    Merrick- you lucky bleeder!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    I knew we wouldn't see everything resolved in the last episode!! I can't wait!!! Bring it ooonn!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:04 a.m. CST

    Howdy, Merrick. Nice to see ya.

    by Perigee

    Glad to hear the Press Relations guy has straightened out his tail and has you on track - send him cookies and make him your friend for life. One additional note that may or may not be of important for Der Englanders: According to the BBC (proper) site, there will be a prequel to 13 available online directly after the episode this evening. Sadly, BBCA makes no such claim. I expect you Tommys to do your part to feed us unfortunate colonists. Thank'ee very much.

  • ...and for that she would need to be contained whilst the changes took effect. For me, I am wondering why the astronaut is impossible!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Horn, on Donna Noble

    by The Transformed Man

    I loved her too. She felt more old school than Martha or Rose, and I too was sick of the whole crushing on the Doctor thing. Not that it had never been touched on before (Pertwee and Jo Grant comes to mind, although it was the Doctor who seemed to be into her when she ran off with that guy).

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Read above, Sam, my lucky friend - you get bonus gifts tonight!

    by Perigee

    Just in case you thought my post to Merrick was just arse-kissin' blather.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Lined up on my femputer to watch in the next few days.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    Castrovalva Black orchid Keeper of Traken creature from the pit It has been absolutely ages since I have seen any of these and I need to be refreshed with them.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:15 a.m. CST

    SJW

    by The Transformed Man

    I thought Donna and Tennant had great chemistry. While the plot to "Partners in Crime" wasn't the show's finest moment, I love the scene where they see each other and start miming. Yes, her mother was a horrible bitch. No arguments there. But Wilf was the best character RTD created during his whole run. Yes, all the Doctor Donna nonsense was painful to watch. She actually had me from the moment she inexplicably appeared in the TARDIS in a bridal gown screaming at the Doctor. I have a weakness for gingers. This probably influences my perception of her in a major way.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:17 a.m. CST

    Lucky, Merrick

    by HornOrSilk

    But good to hear we have good things ahead, with some resolution and questions left as well. Should be a great time ahead!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:18 a.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by HornOrSilk

    Yes, there is something more old school with her, and yet, she could take jokes in a way different from old school Who. She worked as a good mix.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    With what you said, Merrick

    by HornOrSilk

    I'm wondering if it might be mythology in the series (audios, books, tv) which you don't know, but I expect it isn't because I expect you would have googled to find out. So it is going to be interesting to see what new mythology we might get!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:21 a.m. CST

    perigee- will see if I can post a link to the prequel when it airs.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ..will check out the BBC site when I am done being (hopefully) amazed with tonights offering.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:28 a.m. CST

    Sam

    by HornOrSilk

    I love Black Orchid, I like Castrovalva, like Keeper of Traken, and was made a Who fan with Creature from the Pit (though not for the reason why I would love Doctor Who after watching more stories -- just had fun laughing at the monster's costume the first time I saw it, I had to watch more).

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:56 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Merrick

    Expansions of existing mythology. It's abundantly clear we haven't heard *everything* yet.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11 a.m. CST

    thetransformedman ...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ....I too like redheads. It was the character of Donna I could not abide. RTD gave us his weakest series in 4 (IMHO) with the weakest characters (except wilf, he was magic!!). The support mechanism for Tate just didn't exist. She was given an impossible task of carrying a series along with a guy who didn't want to be there. Tennant was already over- he had all but decided that his time was up. The sontaran 2 parter was not really engaging. Partners in crime stank the place up. Planet of the Ood was a strain to get through. the Docotrs daughter was a complete mess. The Noble character failed miserably to lift any of these to better heights (and I am aware it was the writers, producers and Tennants fault also, but as a companion we needed more than the character on offer to give us SOMETHING to watch!) Midnight was superb! Donna wasn't in it much at all, and the material sang all the better for it. Then we got the DoctorDonna mess at the end, which was dreadful. I couldn't connect with virtually anyone at all during this time, especially a vaccuous selfish oaf like Donna started out as. And then, to revert her back to that state after attempting to make her grow was a crime!!! Just awful. By comparison, Martha was a godsend!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Hello, Sam!

    by DoctorTom

    I'm doing well - no Toblerone but I'm getting a Tastykake fix now. (Note to Perigee: not right at this moment - I did have some last night. Right now I have some Herr's Light Popcorn. The City of Brotherly Love indeed - well, except that one time in the 80s when the Philadelphia Police 'Air Force' choppers flew out, but that's a different story...). <br> My condolences on your friend again and I hope you get to feeling better soon. <br> I'm working my way through the DocBack now to get caught up before I have to enter radio silence to avoid spoilers.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Martha

    by History101

    Martha was nothing special. I mean in the sense that she had no engaging backstory, character arc, etc. She just was. I someways in season 3, you could have had a new companion every episode and it would not have changed things very much. They had to bring in her family to give her purpose in the Master story. Personally I would think Donna Noble's father is a much better companion than Martha

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Sam - Tastykakes

    by DoctorTom

    Hideo has it pretty much right. TastyKake is a company that started with different type spongecakes and cupcakes with icing on them (and with the cupcakes, usually vanilla filling in them. The Peanutbutter KandyKake that Perigee referred to is a disc of spongekake with a peanut butter ribbon on top, then the whole cake is covered in chocolate (they have ones with vanilla cream instead of peanut butter). Krimpets are more rectangular spongekakes and usually just have icing put over them - Butterscotch krimpets use a butterscotch ice cream (and boy, are they good). <br> The ones I just got are a limited time edition - the kreme filled Butterscotch krimpets are the normal butterscotch krimpets with a cream filling in the spongecake, and the black and white Krimpets are a chocolate cake with cream filling and vanilla icing on the top. <br> They also do baked single serving pies (similar in shape to a McDonald's apple pie, or Hostess pies - but Tastykake's actually taste good) and also do a Tastyklair (except in the summer) which is essentially a chocolate eclair. They've branched out further now into mini donuts and such. <br> <br> www.tastykake.com doesn't show all their products, but does show things that can be ordered (at prices far exceeding what you'd pay in the grocery stores in the mid Atlantic region of the United States). <br> And thus endeth the plug for Tastykakes.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:57 a.m. CST

    history 101- Donna s father was dead , mate.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .... it was her grandfather you must mean.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:59 a.m. CST

    SJW

    by The Transformed Man

    Fair points; she definitely suffered from poor scripts, but at that point, I was sadly used to those (in particular, the resolution to the Master three parter at the end of series 3--not including "Utopia", which I LOVE; back to the Doctor Donna situation, that whole story--while I turn into a seven year old at the site of Daleks in ANY story--was a MESS. Planets being yanked out of orbit and repositioned with no physical consequences to their respective solar systems then... towed... back to orbit by the TARDIS... oh yeah, K-9 and Torchwood helped, then all of Donna's character development erased). But in spite of it all, I still love Donna. And if you don't, no worries. More Donna for me!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:59 a.m. CST

    I WANNA GODDAMN TASTYCAKE!!!! boohoo!!!!!!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 24, 2011, noon CST

    speaking of companion's mothers...

    by The Transformed Man

    Martha's mother was a piece of work. Her dad seemed pretty cool though.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:04 p.m. CST

    Donna's grandfather

    by History101

    Thanks SWJ for the correction Honestly sometimes I wonder about what would have happened if he won the argument about leaving him in the booth. I know the doctor did the noble thing, but Wilfred had a point about the Dr. needing to live on.....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:04 p.m. CST

    and I probably shouldn't blurt this out in a public forum

    by The Transformed Man

    But I found Jackie Tyler a bit more alluring than I ever found Rose. Yeah, she was annoying, but if I was forced to choose between the two of them... I realize that wasn't at all what they were going for. I never totally got the hang of Rose. She did have her moments.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:05 p.m. CST

    1 hour and 5 minutes to go!!!!! yeah!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Wilf

    by The Transformed Man

    Both of my grandfathers died when my parents were children, so I never had one. Wilf kind of embodies what I always thought cool grandfathers were like.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:08 p.m. CST

    comicguru - a response

    by Mister Vertue

    Just carrying over your comments from the mess in Herc's talkback. I'm still not sure where you're getting your information from regarding series 7 being spilt up, with the first half appearing before the 2012 Christmas Special and the second half appearing afterwards. You seem absolutely adamant that that remains the case, and I can only assume you're referring to Danny Cohen's mistaken comments from earlier in the year and that one blip alone is still fuelling your thoughts and opinions. No, we haven't had 'official' confirmation of the tx dates yet (and that won't happen for a long, long time), although The Moff *has* officially gone on record as saying that Danny's comments were outright wrong (I'm sure someone can provide a link to back that up). I'd love for you to follow up all your original comments in the Herc talkback in this official Docback and hopefully provide some evidence for your words. If I've missed something, or if our fellow Docbackers can assist you, I'd love to read more on the matter.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:09 p.m. CST

    Donna's dad

    by The Transformed Man

    The actor who played him in "The Runaway Bride" died either shortly before or early in production of series four. They had what turned out to be a brilliant idea of weaving Cribbins' character from "Voyage of the Damned" into Donna's story.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Doctom- well met!!! ....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...thanks for the condolencies, it means alot. Yeah, now is the time to avoid spoilers as we are now entering the final stretch. So looking forward to this it is unreal!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Wilf needs to come back

    by HornOrSilk

    It would be excellent if he were the "old friend" back in this episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    Bring on the giant flesh-eating silverfish!

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:23 p.m. CST

    redheads...

    by gotilk

    Some strange fellow on talk radio was talking about how by 2060 or something, they expect redheads to be extinct.Yesterday. LOL!!! Would be a sad day. Oxford Hair Foundation again. I think the Oxford Hair Foundation is just a bunch of guys who meet in a bar and talk about their hate for gingers, who then release papers. Google it, quite funny really. But completely baseless. In reality, blondes are more *at risk* for fading away, just not completely. Conservative talk radio. Science news without all that pesky actual science or fact checking. And if you're wondering why I was listening at all? I was stuck in the car with my step-father on the way to the hospital. (everything is fine, btw) .... and Donna grew on me. She bugged me at first. But I still place her at the bottom of my list of companions, without feeling any actual *hate* for her. I'm sure many had their reasons for disliking her. I had caught some of her comedy and thought it wasn't so great. I guess you could say it *bovvered* me. Some was funny, much fell flat. However I DID like the fact that a companion for once wasn't *supercute*. Just wish it had been more of a Hellen Mirren type.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST

    On Matt Smith making people forget Tennant

    by DoctorTom

    (still working my way through the posts) - Sam, I think you're right about it being a consecutive Doctor thing. I know that once we were into Tennant for a second season I wasn't really thinking about Eccleston. I can go back now and watch it and still think that he's wonderful as the Doctor, but I think if you have a really good Doctor who has his own overwhelming presence that you'll forget about the Doctor immediately before. I think that the only reasons Davison didn't pull it off was because Tom Baker had been in the part so long that it had become ingrained in people's psyches that Tom WAS the Doctor, combined with the personality of Davison's Doctor not being a more flamboyant type. It's an excellent performance that Davison does, but the sheer flamboyance of Baker before him tended to overshadow Davison's achievements. (And, after that, the scripts and/or production work/and/or costume choices tended to overshadow what the actors were actually able to do with the part.)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:24 p.m. CST

    Ne'er Fear, Sammy - The Tastycake man is here!

    by Perigee

    You have my email addy - send me your physical address, and I'll put you together a Philly CARE package.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:25 p.m. CST

    ahhhh... still miss ol' Wilf.

    by gotilk

    What a great character, and actor.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:27 p.m. CST

    CBTML - I wouldn't damn BBC America too much

    by DoctorTom

    granted, they should get the episodes to Merrick for review before they show on air. However, BBCA has done well in giving us same day broadcasts in America, and we're going to get the Nerdist special with Matt Smith and Craig Ferguson tonight after the Doctor Who episode. (They also tried with those 3 Doctor Who specials that really focused only on the Matt Smith era. The only thing I can say about those is 'Bless' in exactly the same tone River used in The Impossible Astronaut.)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:27 p.m. CST

    gotlik

    by The Transformed Man

    I don't think I want to live in a world where redheads are not an option.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:30 p.m. CST

    Horn RE. Wilf

    by Type 40

    I aggree it would be nice to see Wilf back. The change in dynamic between him and Matt Smith's more _old man in young body_ would be interesting to behold! Looking forward to tonight's episode!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST

    Horn - re: your 3:59 not-Fenric post

    by DoctorTom

    (yes, still catching up) - I think you're right about the chess game. <br> I do suspect that it won't be any of the classic villains (at least, non-alien race villains, so no Fenric) behind this, although I would be happy to find out that the Celestial Toymaker is behind this, and the chess game, the Flesh, the Silents, the creepy dolls we've seen, the VR realms and such were all just toys in his eyes for him to play with.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:31 p.m. CST

    THERE's the man - MOV: Pester...

    by Perigee

    C'mon. Cut me one, wee, tiny slice of pity. Sad Clown, uncredited: Smith? (Yeah - I know the fact that he WAS uncredited while the gorilla was is a huge damn clue, but what can I say - I'm insecure. (Now to the wheedling...) Besides, if it WAS Smith, that didn't have to be His room. Coulda been for a Dalek with Coulrophobia...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:34 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by gotilk

    I'm sorry you never got to know any grandparents. I was lucky to have had my grandfather live with us for several years. I have a lot of great memories, although he did preempt my cartoon watching many times with his constant viewing of the Lawrence Welk show. Used to drive me batty. Now, of course, every time the local PBS station runs Welk shows, I have to stop and watch, no matter how cringeworthy the material is, just to have a smile. Isn't life funny that way? He was quite the man. He once saved hundreds of Getty Oil employees lives by running into a fire and turning off valves, causing himself 3rd degree burns. JP Getty himself ordered gallons of daily orange juice for him in the hospital while he was recovering and he did recover well and fast. He was a hero, my hero and a hero to others. Every kid should have the chance to know a grandfather.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:39 p.m. CST

    Perigee - Clown

    by Type 40

    it really did look like Smith didn't it?! The shape of his head & his shoulders gave me that impression too.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:39 p.m. CST

    Three predictions each for tonight and next week

    by spacehog

    Closing Time: 1. Craig has spent the intervening years since his last encounter with the Doctor training his body and mind for one purpose. He challenges the Doctor to a football rematch and DESTROYS him, just utterly leaves him weeping and despondent on the ground, ready to limp to his death. 2. The Headless Monks appear and announce they're actually RTD creations. They fell through the cracks, which led to the RTD era. We learn their heads are not stored in boxes, but up their own asses. They promptly disappear forever and the episode resumes. 3. We discover the Cybermen have shown up to get the proto-Tardis on top of Craig's house. They are chagrined to find they have arrived too late and have absconded with only a dirty, third-floor apartment. WITH NO UTILITIES INCLUDED. Final episode (in case some still don't want to know the title): 1. We learn why the astronaut is impossible: It's a Melody who was rescued, but who does not erase the River we know. The suit is meant as some kind of paradox-containing device—which the Doctor built. 2. We will learn what The Question is...but will be left wondering what it means or why it would end the universe. 3. We learn that River, true to the trend of the series, is absolutely everyone. Rivergangerverse. Everyone is Flesh being controlled by Mel during detention.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:43 p.m. CST

    doctortom yes, I've thought Toymaker too

    by HornOrSilk

    I think I even suggested him last year for the finale

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Rebel - Earthshock special edition

    by DoctorTom

    The one thing that could have made the episode better if there had been an option to select that would automatically play the 'Episode 5' right after the end of Episode 4, instead of having to go into the Special Features menu to access it.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:44 p.m. CST

    gotlik--your grandfather sounds awesome

    by The Transformed Man

    Thanks for sharing. I knew both grandmothers, but it was odd as a child seeing friends having fun with their grandfathers and me having absolutely no frame of reference for it. Just a few stories and really old black and white photographs. One of my grandfathers was a doctor, and I somehow ended up with his medical bag. It's like the only physical piece of him I've got, but that bag is lovely and in great condition. He was a lot older than his wife, so this bag might be over a hundred years old. I've never tried to find out. I used to use the bag as a man bag from time to time (it scared my mother to death, as she was convinced hooligans would assume I had a bag full of drugs and kill me to get it), and it would feel like he was hanging out with me in some way. The lack of a grandfather is not a thing I tended to give a whole lot of thought to in the long run, but Wilf's character made me give a lot of thought to it. I don't know if he'll ever meet Smith's Doctor, but I'd be pretty okay with that happening.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Be sure to watch "The Nerdist" after Doctor Who on BBCA

    by gotilk

    this evening. Matt Smith and Craig Ferguson are guests. And a lady dressed as a TARDIS. Not to be missed. I know most of you are aware of this already, but if not... there you go.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:46 p.m. CST

    the clown

    by The Transformed Man

    When I first saw it in the series 6 trailers, I just assumed it was Matt. I'd love to know.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Speculation

    by Minque

    Hello, everyone! I have read the DocBacks for ages and finally decided to join in. Since we are on episode 12 tonight, it’s now or never, right? I have a question that I have not seen discussed here, and if I missed it, I apologize. In Pandorica Opens, just after Amy emerges, there are two cloaked figures visible on the right-hand margin of the screen. They are standing behind two sarcophagi; one in the background, one in the foreground. As the camera moves away and back to them, you can see that they have changed position. Who are they and why are they there? Someone who doesn’t want to be identified by Amy because they are messing about in the timestream? A very similar cloaked figure appears in TIA, standing to the right of the boathouse, in the background. This figure is much more difficult to see, but it is visible, and raises its arm. After the Doctor is shot, it appears to be lying on the ground. I would really appreciate any ideas on who these figures are and why they are there. Merrick – thanks from me, as well. By excluding the trolls, you encourage inclusion by reticent souls, such as myself. Sorry for the long post.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:47 p.m. CST

    perigee - the kid needing the life support suit

    by DoctorTom

    She might not have needed it. On the other hand, she was without it and died in January 1970. Whether that was due to being outside the astronaut suit for so long or due to events we haven't seen yet, we'll probably find out next week.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Merrick, good to hear the news!

    by DoctorTom

    Both about the continued weekly DocBacks, and that BBC has straightened things out with you.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 12:55 p.m. CST

    people keep mentioning Philly

    by The Transformed Man

    And it's making me crave a Philly cheese steak. I'm going to go out and hunt for one. It won't be authentic though. More of a Washington, DC interpretation of one. I'll check back in later!

  • You never know, it's worth a try. <br> If you're going to do that, the best value are the cases. It's a lot of cupkakes to go through, though (no complaints there, though). <br> <br> Now, if they'd only start shipping Tastyklairs again... <br> <br> And, we have to get them to post a recipe for something that includes both Tastykakes and Toblerone....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:06 p.m. CST

    minque - welcome to the Docbacks!

    by DoctorTom

    Actually, it's not now or never on the DocBacks. Merrick's going to keep weekly DocBacks going, starting new ones every Friday. Different things about Who will end up being discussed (we have all the DVD releases that will be coming out, new Sarah Jane Adventures in October, and Merrick's journey through classic Doctor Who to cover), and it gives us a civilized place to hang out and just chat with each other. <br> As to those figures, that could be a good spot and something we'll see worked in later. They might be Silents (though I don't see Silents going in for cloaks) - we might find out that it's the Doctor, Rory, Amy or River (in any combination) time travelling and in those scenes.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:09 p.m. CST

    Just a thought on the Question

    by DoctorTom

    When and where is the first Question asked? <br> My guess is shortly after the Big Bang, and the question is asked on the TARDIS. <br> <br> I doubt that the first question will be 'will this let us escape from dying in Event 1?' but will be more relevant. I also doubt that it's Amy or Rory asking the Doctor 'Are you God?', though it would be amusing if that were the question.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:14 p.m. CST

    ERADICATE!! ERADICATE!!

    by gotilk

    http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/inspector+spacetime

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:16 p.m. CST

    minque WELCOME!!!

    by gotilk

    Nice to have you here. I will have to re-watch to see if I can catch the figures you speak of.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:17 p.m. CST

    Sorry, SJW, as I answered this late, but I've been busy

    by wtriker1701

    But thanksalot mate!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:22 p.m. CST

    Inspector Spacetime is great... BUT...

    by gotilk

    The Blogons are over-used.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:29 p.m. CST

    thetransformedman

    by gotilk

    A medical bag? How cool is that? My grandfather left me a grenade from WW1, yep... WW1. He was a teen soldier in WW1. I don't have much else from him. A few pictures, the grenade (which gets some funny looks from people helping me move from time to time), a magnifiying glass in a sliding metal case and a hat that I wore in high school a lot, until it fell in a river and had to be retired finally. That was one great hat. It was *like* a fedora, but not quite. Not sure what it was exactly.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Am i the only one who thinks

    by V'Shael

    there was a LOT of time between last weeks EP and this one? Like 200 years?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST

    Best way to evade a Blogon?

    by gotilk

    Stairs. But check for a lift.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:31 p.m. CST

    v'shael

    by gotilk

    I think it was a week-year. Officially.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:35 p.m. CST

    spoilers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by sam jacksons wig

    OKAY- IT'S FUCKING GONE BLUE!!!!!! FROM GREEN TO FUCKING BLUE!!! THAT IS NOT A CO-INCIDENCE HERE!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:42 p.m. CST

    sam -- spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    Sounds like it all ties together

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:46 p.m. CST

    That was not very good

    by catlettuce4

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Correction: it was crap

    by catlettuce4

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:52 p.m. CST

    Secret Origins: The Fat Controller

    by buggerbugger

    This really needed to tie in to the Fat Controller as seen in 'Attack of the Cybermen'. This episode felt like one of those lesser DWM comic strips, the ones where it really didn't matter if you missed this month's story because it was just 10 pages of nothing much.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    gotlik, on that medical bag

    by The Transformed Man

    If I remember correctly, my parents were about to toss it in the trash, and I just happened upon this at the right moment, instantly fell in love with the bag (I always thought it was just my dad's--never realized it had been around THAT long), and said "Don't you dare!". WWI grenade? That's pretty intense too. Teen solder in WWI. Glad he lived well beyond those dark days, and glad you got to enjoy a lot of time with him!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:55 p.m. CST

    Ugh

    by photoboy

    That was awful. If Corden had actually been converted it might have been OK, but a story about defeating Cybermen with love? Utterly fucking terrible, and a huge disappointment for this Cybemen fan. This season has been really terrible, which is doubly disappointing after the greatness of the previous season. Hopefully Moffat can turn it around next year.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Advanced cybertechnology

    by buggerbugger

    ...is no match for the power of love! How many times has love saved the day in the last two series? What a fucking joke.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 1:59 p.m. CST

    2nd worst of the season, IMO.

    by V'Shael

    Really didn't like that at all. Crying shame, as I loved the Lodger episode. This was just like a bad Trek episode. He killed them with love? And that causes a massive explosion? Of course it does. Why not. The last few minutes were lovely, but I'm going to have to think long and hard about if / how it fits into the Melody Pond time line already established. I'm not entirely convinced it makes sense, but I'll have to think about it. Maybe this episode will appeal to fathers, who would like to believe they could move heaven and earth for their sons, and that love conquers all things including physics.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    ** SPOILERS**It was ok, but..

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    It shouldn't have been Cybermen. I actually didn't mind the self-contained story of Craig and his baby - It worked as a story of the Doctor wanting to see a friend before he dies, now that he's alone, but it seemed wrong to use a big bad like the Cybermen in such a weak way. The cheese would have gone down alot smoother with a lesser villain. I enjoyed the baby-talk coversations - very funny! And the set up at the end was cool. Also TAKE NOTE RTD: HOMOSEXUALITY REFERENCES THAT ARE RELEVANT! That's how you do it. OK, it was played for laughs but it was woven into the plot, instead of just someone popping their head round a door saying 'I'M A GAY' and buggering off again.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:04 p.m. CST

    The Dalek / Cybermen slow death continues ...

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Whoever follows Moff will inherit both icons as nothing more than bad jokes. Tonight was refreshing to watch the Dr without the burden of Amy/Rory but in general it was just more average nonsense ...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Another annoying thing...

    by V'Shael

    the sonic screwdriver is being treated more like a weapon know. I really don't like that. Are we going to discard 50 years of the Doctor abhorring weapons, making the sonic screwdriver some sort of laser gun? I really hope not, but it does look like that at times, especially in this episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:06 p.m. CST

    Disappointing end *spoilers*

    by Fuck The Napkin

    I was enjoying the episode and a bit of RTD-style campiness, ignoring the fact it was the penultimate episode in the series and I had loads of questions desperate to be answered. And when the Cybermen caught Craig I thought it was going to be great - Craig turned into a Cyberleader and turning out to be behind the whole series arc... that would be great! But no, love saved the day and blew up the Cybermen heads and the episode had nothing to do with the story arc after all. :( I did like the name of Amy's perfume though! :)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    well...... erm...... (spoilers).....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...a bit of a non-event actually, which apart from a couple of nice touches to set up next week did very little apart from supply a vehicle to once again give us James Cordens Craig. The Cybermen were criminally underused here, which was the main fault I had. I wish i could say that they wanted more than to assimilate humans to once again take over humanity, but they didn't. With there only being 6 of them, it seemed awfully like the CULT OF SKARO trying to dominate the human race, and a recycling of ideas. The Cybermat was a nice touch, and became more of a threat as the episode plodded on. However, throughout it all it lacked any real menace, any real punch. Smith was excellent - frenetic, humourous and solemn as we proceeded, and it was indeed he who kept me looking at the screen. And as for the end- no major spoilers here, but the question of who is in the astronaut suit is finally answered. It's how the twist takes place we now should be talking about. The biggie for me? As my previous post stated, why did the sonic turn from green to blue to green??????

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:07 p.m. CST

    v'shael, to be fair..

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    It's was being used on a predominantly electronic device. It's not as if he's zapping Silurians.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:08 p.m. CST

    Things I liked (so it's not all negative)

    by V'Shael

    James Corden, Matt Smith, the jokes, the script up until the resolution, the two-dads running gag, all of that stuff. It really was just the cyber-ending that soured my taste on the episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:08 p.m. CST

    Okay. I'll be the lone voice who says he enjoyed it.

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I actually really enjoyed it! Perhaps it’s because I’m in a good mood today but it made me laugh on several occasions (Stormageddon! The shush! The Doctor’s face when someone mentioned a “silver rat”! Is “partner” better than “companion”? “Don’t have a go at me just because I don’t know the names…”) and found it thoroughly enjoyable throughout. Was the resolution to the Cybermen story a bit twee and sentimental? Yes. Did it bother me? Not really. And, that final part…. Oooh! And the trailer looks awesome! Dinosaurs! A pyramid! Awesomeness!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:08 p.m. CST

    v'shael

    by 2LeggedFreak

    No it doesn't appeal to fathers ---it was naff. Thought the only thing that saved this episode from being rather poor was the links with the seasons overall arc -- the counter to that though is that they've built up the anticipation for the last episode now to ridiculous heights --I hope they can deliver. Some decent interaction with the Doctor and Craig but the baby talk, the misunderstood gay relationship and the "love saves the day" were trite and old and this felt hugely like filler. At least the pirates episode felt a bit more original !!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:09 p.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig re: screwdriver

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    Yeah I noticed that, but I just assumed it was different settings and didn't pay it any more mind.

  • is what's annoying. And it's not just the cybermats who got blasted in this episode. Plus, the end of Day of the Moon saw a lot of it too.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:15 p.m. CST

    @2leggedfreak - But this episode did make me laugh

    by V'Shael

    at least, so it already beats the Pirates episode for me, which just made me wince like I was sucking on lemons.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Oh, I enjoyed it well enough... and laughed a lot- a few niggles.

    by notspock2

    I agree that the cybermen have been kind of neutered, this episode had elements of farce in it which made any genuine threat they could have posed feel a bit incongruous. The Cybermen heads exploding was consistent with what we've seen before, however i can't have been the only one hoping that Craig would go full Tony Stark?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:18 p.m. CST

    Remember the Invasion anyone?

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:20 p.m. CST

    V'shael

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Yep --liked the Robot Dog joke and Matts performance was great as usual but I don't think they really brought anything new to the party other than hyped up the riffs from the Lodger. Not dreadful but just not terribly interesting.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:20 p.m. CST

    SOLE REASON I SUSPECT CRAIG DIDNT CHANGE

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    A fat Cyberman would have looked ridiculous. Also, since when do people get changed to Cybermen that way? What happened to all the gruesome buzz-sawing and operating that happens first? Bit convenient.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:21 p.m. CST

    *Spoilers*

    by s0l

    mom, not-mom & Minions...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:22 p.m. CST

    terrible penultimate show (SPOILERS)

    by kusanagiguy

    I quite liked the Lodger and was looking forward to this but colour me disapointed. crass humor, poor story and no connection to the season arc aside from a tacked on epilogue. I expected more despite not expecting that much. The Cybermen were reduced to a joke, add them to the pile of Doctor foes who need to take a well earned break. Speaking of which why are the Daleks back in the finale (the promo for last ep) I thought Doctor Who was done with them. Learning that River was the one in the suit upset me more than the episode I really thought we were going to get someone else from the way they kept it all a mystery. I hope that this is a swerve but I doubt it I was really looking forward to the finale but after this its sad to say I really couln't care at all about the finale. Its the only Doctor Who finale that has left me this way - maybe its a good thing as all the others have let me down

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:24 p.m. CST

    I am now very fearful going into next week.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ... we should be buzzing, but we're not. It's as if they said "hey! the previous 42 minutes were just filler for the last three and the BIG reveal that no-one knows about!!!! Tell you what, when it's finished that's all they will be talking about!" Sorry. Who matters to me and most others that post here. We are driven by the story, by the narrative, by the protagonists- we want to be involved and to feel something. We want to be moved, to be excited, to feel dread. Not rely on a final act that, let's face it, most people have already guessed at since we first saw the impossible astronaut. This is penultimate time! We should have had more, we should have had something! Not happy. 2 out of 10. The very worst episode I have seen of nu-who. It even outranks love and monsters and fear her.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:25 p.m. CST

    Hm.... *spoilers*

    by s0l

    mom, not-mom & Minions...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    I don't fear going into next week

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember, sometimes the most effective story takes you by surprise by having a lull before the storm...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:26 p.m. CST

    James Corden fucking KILLS Doctor Who!

    by scriptgirl_nipples

    Not literally show wise, but that fat unfunny bastard will kill this show with his appearences.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:28 p.m. CST

    re: "A fat Cyberman would have looked ridiculous."

    by buggerbugger

    We've had a fat Cyberman. He was badass. This should have been his secret origin. I was hoping he'd stand clear of the conversion machinery and wail "Nooooooooooo!" when he realized he'd never eat another pie.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Anything else agree that

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    An episode of just the Doctor alone in his TARDIS preparing for this finale would have been better? Just a huge build up, and you can fit him visiting Craig into five minutes as well as the whole sending out the invitations, going to look at those galaxies as a big moment of pathos. He could have monolgued most of it talking to the TARDIS/himself. Probably would have been cheaper, too. I would have liked it anyway. *shrug*

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:32 p.m. CST

    DW Confidential is more fun than the actual episode.

    by Nerfee

    Lots of monkeying around from Corden & Smith. I thought tonight was fillertastic. It's a shame because I really like Corden and think he would make a great travelling companion for the Doctor. More Alien planets and space, please!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST

    What might appear tobe filler

    by HornOrSilk

    Might not be as much filler as you think...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST

    The excitement factor is draining away from this show ...

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    RTD finales were often a bit silly but the man knew how to create an exciting build-up ... Next week will be a bloated show that needs to resolve too much in too short a time frame. All so predictable.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:33 p.m. CST

    Unless I have seriously missed things

    by 2LeggedFreak

    My biggest fear is that we'll see a bit of a repeat of last seasons finale where the Doctor pulls a neat little trick to save the universe but we still have big unresolved threads going into next season. There is no way, unless its exposition central that these things can easily be resolved in 45 minutes I'm not sure that spreading a story of say 6 episodes over 3 seasons with a lot of standalones in between really works for me --it feels disjointed and tacked on. I remember all kinds of rumours that this season was going to be a bit Back to The Future 2 ish and we were in for a wild ride. Its not happened though and the "Moff is a genius" feeling that some of us had is starting to fell a bit silly. Not expecting much from next week at all.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:36 p.m. CST

    Don't give up on the Moff

    by HornOrSilk

    I think he is doing something which will be better appreciated over time...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    2leggedfreak, I think it's a bit unfair

    by chronicallydepressedlemming

    to make that kind of judgement based on one filler episode. Every season has had them. I'm not sure how you extrapolate Moff dropping the ball or the finale not living up to expectations from that.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:39 p.m. CST

    The Shush was funny, though.

    by Nerfee

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:43 p.m. CST

    cdl

    by 2LeggedFreak

    I'll be more than pleased if he hasn't but this season has not lived up the the hype --my favourite episode was The Doctors Wife- a completely standalone episode. TIA and DOTM were promises made that can only now be delivered in the last 45 minutes of the show and there are so many different shows that have fallen at this hurdle but have felt much better prepared going into it that I worry seriously about whether he can pull it off.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:44 p.m. CST

    I'm looking forward to next week.

    by notspock2

    Not chomping at the bit like I was last year maybe, and that's ok...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Finale 2: Doctor's Army 2.

    by buggerbugger

    Next week looks like the same kind of overcrowded shit that 'The Pandorica Opens' and 'A Good Man Goes to War' ended up being. A bazillion characters running around with a good gag each so viewers will be fooled into **thinking** they were all awesome, despite the fact they were nothing more than one-liners in place of actual characters anyone gave a shit about. They're not characters, they're second-rate jokes left over from 'Coupling'. I honestly thought I'd never say this, but I'm **really** glad this series is almost over. Moffat, hand in your cards, you've been generally shite as DW's resident smug-runner. And no, don't you dare hand over to Mehhh Gatiss or Gary Russell, that toadying little arse-licker.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:46 p.m. CST

    A for instance

    by 2LeggedFreak

    This from Moff ahead of Season 6: The Moff has told Doctor Who Magazine that there is a massive, massive twist coming up in the next series of the show. And it’s all to do with Amy Pond. Moffat declared that "The calamitous and, frankly, shocking events at the climax of episode seven will still be ringing in your ears when Doctor Who returns in the autumn for a further six episodes." He continued, “You’ll see The Doctor’s life change forever. You will gasp at the true nature of his relationship with Amy and cry out in horror as Rory Williams stumbles to the brink of a tragic mistake.” To reinforce the point, he added that “It is an enormous, game-changing cliffhanger for The Doctor, Amy and Rory. It’ll change everything for them.” Really --- come on ---really---does anyone feel that thats what happened at half season ?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    link to the prequel for next week... (spoilers)

    by sam jacksons wig

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00kn2y6 have a butchers guys!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:48 p.m. CST

    I think some of you have ridiculously high expectations...

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Would I have preferred part one of a two part Moff finale? Sure I would. But that's not what we got and Moff has done enough right (in my opinion) that I'm not going to sit back, chew my fingernails and suddenly declare that one final episode isn't enough so I'm no longer looking forward to it. You guessed that River Song was The Doctor's killer? That's fine; it means that the rest of the season made sense. After all, we spent enough time learning how she was kidnapped for this very purpose earlier in the season and a sudden twist, just for the purpose of having a twist, would have probably resulted in a lot of unhappy people. Who said we were going to get all of the answers anyway? Everyone thought we'd learn about The Silence last season and look what happened. I'd be surprised if Moff doesn't do that again this time too, because it keeps people watching and speculating. So, what did we get? We got a very funny (again - in my opinion) episode in which Smith and Corden played off one another in a very amusing way. There were a number of great lines and it was nice having it all set against the main season storyline of The Doctor's death. I wasn't a big fan of The Lodger but I really enjoyed my time with this episode. It made me laugh and it made me appreciate the fact that I can watch a show where one episode brings a tear to my eye whilst another episode makes me chuckle. Were the Cybermen shortchanged? I won't dispute that because, yes, they certainly were. Was the resolution to the mystery a bit too over-sentimental? I won't dispute that either. But, for me, the entire thing held together in a way which some of this season's episodes such as Night Terrors or The Rebel Flesh didn't. Someone I know said it put her in a better mood, and that's fantastic. I'm not criticising anyone here for their opinions. Everyone sees things a different way but I'm surprised to see such vitriol in regards to Closing Time. I feel some of you may have made up your minds beforehand, been disappointed it wasn't the first part of a Moff two-parter, or simply hated Corden, and therefore didn't give this episode a chance. Watch it again with your expectations at the right level and you might actually have some fun with it.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    scratchmonkey ... I sadly agree.

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Can't remember another show that has such a passionate following yet fails to truly deliver week in week out ... Only The Doctor's Wife has approached greatness this year. 1 episode from 12 ... Good job Moff.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Or this from Moff for second half of season

    by 2LeggedFreak

    The Doctor leads Amy and Rory across centuries and galaxies in a desperate search for baby Melody, but a terrible and inescapable date looms large. At 5.02pm on 22nd April 2011, the Doctor will die. These are his last days, and the quest for Melody his final mission. That was a quest that ended in Lets Kill Hitler ?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:52 p.m. CST

    2leggedfreak

    by notspock2

    Not *at* the break, but by the time of the break, something fitting all those descriptions, did in my opinion happen.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST

    *spoilers* Let me also agree with most here....

    by Seph_J

    ...in saying that was painfully disappointing. Best bit: the Doctor changing the baby lights stars into a REAL universe. The worst bits: The story, James Corden, the Cybermen. This time last year we had the Doctor LOCKED in the Pandorica, an Alliance of awesome enemies, Amy dead, Rory and Auton, and THE END OF THE UNIVERSE. This was a serious mistep in planning.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Baley

    by 2LeggedFreak

    I didn't go in expecting anything other than Lodger type shenanigans -- just didn't fell that it was very well done ---felt like more of the same but a heck of a lot worse -- and I liked the Lodger and I like Corden so I've no axe to grind with that story other than it took the silliness and mushiness to levels I wasn't comfortable with. What scared me shitless though was the by the numbers way we got River plonked into the space suit ready to kill the Doctor----hhrrh -- it wasn't good.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    **Spoiler Above Warning ** Sorry wasn't thinking

    by 2LeggedFreak

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 2:59 p.m. CST

    The Melody Pond timeline...

    by V'Shael

    As a baby, kidnapped from Demons Run. Raised by Kovarian and the Silents. Next seen in baby pictures at an orphanage in 1969, at some unknown point (and yet to be seen point) in her timeline. Next seen, after at least one REGENERATION as a young girl child in Florida. Her memory may have been affected at this point, since she's had a regeneration, may be older than the child appears, and doesn't react to the Doctor, her older self, Amy or anything. She's put in a life support system which is not under her control. Next seen in New York six months later and she regenerates again. Next seen, as Mels in Leadworth, growing up with her parents. She has not yet killed the Doctor in her timeline, and she knows she wants to. Gets shot by Hitler in 1939 and REGENERATES to River Song. At this point, she has her memory of trying to kill the Doctor. And wanting to. She is taken to the 51st century, and given a diary. She has no more regenerations. Next seen as Doctor Song, newly graduated, meets Kovarian. She doesn't recognise her, or the Silents. She is hunting The Doctor, but presumably not to kill him. Almost like she doesn't remember being kidnapped and raised by Kovarian and her troops. Note, the Doctors post hypnotic suggestion doesn't seem to apply to Kovarian and her troops. Next seen as the astronaut at the Lake. The Doctor knows she's in the suit. (How?) She kills the Doctor and leaves. Older River on the beach doesn't remember these events either apparently. So if River has some memory problems and/or is lying at points then the timeline works okay, there's just lots of gaps.

  • Remember when the show actually passed our expectations? How on earth does watching it again with some kind of filter on help or improve what was served up?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    2leggedfreak

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Interesting that I don't rate The Lodger all that highly and yet thought this episode was fantastic, but you're almost the reverse. Doctor Who has always had an element of silliness though, hasn't it? Isn't that one of the things that separates it from most of the American science-fiction shows? Other than Supernatural, I've not come across a show that's as willing to slot in some silly, light-hearted shenanigans amongst the more serious drama. Maybe it depends upon your sense of humor, I suppose. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that. I'm sorry that you didn't like the way that River was handled at the end. It felt fine to me and put everything where it needed to be for the finale. Did we need more than that, really? Once you knew that River was The Doctor's killer, you knew she'd end up in the suit and that she was being manipulated by The Silence. What we got was more than adequate (again, in my opinion).

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:03 p.m. CST

    Still have positive expectations for tonight

    by History101

    Not reading the posts, but seeing a lot of negative in the subject lines. Having not enjoyed last weeks( putting me in the minority) and having enjoyed the Lodger even after repeated viewing, I believe I will enjoy this one. We have a varied audience with varied tastes. I would be surprised if we ever had agreement on the quality of episodes. If I remember correctly there are some that actually enjoyed Love and Monsters. That taste I just can't understand.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:05 p.m. CST

    ginge_muppet

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    So, you think that every episode will surpass your expectations? This would explain your disappointment.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:05 p.m. CST

    CBTML- I had absolutely no preconceptions heading in here.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and that is from someone who enjoyed the Lodger from last year (and indeed watched it again today!) I am glad that others don't share my feelings. I am generally very positive about episodes, and as you know have even defended black spot and night terrors. Here, I just couldn't get involved. Nothing much happened. And my fear is that some will switch off next week.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Horn- oh no, I haven't given up on the Moff and never will.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    .... I am fearful of next week simply because of the caustic reaction to this episode. Hell, I didn't really find much to like, and you of all people know how much i look for the good in episodes. It was, for me, just a wasted opportunity, and that makes it far worse than something that wants to be good but ends up being mediocre not for the want of ambition and trying!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:10 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Not at all ... But asking people to adjust expectations as some desperate way of defending what was a poor episode is just depressing ... Much like the show at the moment.

  • Well, if i may answer someone else's question, I think if you are expecting a pandorica opens style ending, then clearly what you are getting isn't going to meet expectations. This episode isn't that and really, isn't trying to be that. It's a sequel to the lodger. If you watch expecting a bit of levity before the"oncoming storm" then it will have a better shot at meeting expectations. However, still- why use the cybermen for this? unless this episode is from their point of view a sequel to some events that we have yet to see where they are strong, it seems like a very odd choice.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:12 p.m. CST

    notspock-

    by sam jacksons wig

    I do fear of the reception next week will bring on here. I want it to be good so very very much. What I have just seen leading into it was perhaps the damp squib before the cavalcade of colour!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Often people have filters going into episodes, too

    by HornOrSilk

    Thinking it should be X, and it is Y. They come out disappointed. They see it again awhile later, and like it. Might not be their favorite episode, but they find it better than initial reaction.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:15 p.m. CST

    Sam -- I know you are not, but some sadly are

    by HornOrSilk

    And I do think he is trying to go against type. It is a smart idea, but it might not work this season. The whole point though seems to play the season without having it to be predictable.... though of course, some things ended up being predictable by the nature of the new story sequence.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Doc was great *spoilers*

    by Fuck The Napkin

    I really enjoyed the Doctor being fun again - get him away from Amy and Rory and River and the character really shines. I liked the silliness, I liked the dialogue, I liked James Corden, I liked the old-skool look of the Cybermat, I liked the Cybermen being crashed in a spaceship down a tunnel behind a mirror for hundreds of years... but man it went gay at the end. Why do that? Why even involve the Cybermen? Why make them actually SCARY for the first time since Who came back, but only make them last as scary for one minute before making them pussies again? Felt like a big cop-out to me.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    notspock2

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    I will clear it up for you. I expected tonight what I expect EVERY time I sit down to watch Dr Who ... An episode that is exciting, funny and at least attempts to reach greatness. Being the penultimate show is irrelevant ...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    *SPOILER**

    by 2LeggedFreak

    My biggest problem with the River in the space suit is "Why ?" There has been a lot made of stealing Amy and Rory's time baby to bring up as an assassin to kill the Doctor when, for all that River is actually bringing to the death scene, it could have been Colonel Mustard in the library with the gun. Unless some brilliant explanation is forthcoming then River as the assassin is a "so what" , it could have been anybody so why all the baby stealing ?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    @CBTML - Watch the presumption...

    by V'Shael

    *I feel some of you may have made up your minds beforehand, been disappointed it wasn't the first part of a Moff two-parter, or simply hated Corden, and therefore didn't give this episode a chance.* If there's one thing I can't stand, it's being told why I didn't like an episode especially when the reasons why I didn't were obvious, and the reasons being put forward are bollox. Now, while you didn't direct the comment to me, you did sort of make it generic and there may be other folks on the Docback for whom such a .. condescending presumption might be equally offensive.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Why Cybermen

    by HornOrSilk

    Might make more sense after next week, maybe? Or just Gareth Roberts wanted to?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Remember the Invasion

    by HornOrSilk

    I still say that to people.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Perfume

    by Fuck The Napkin

    By the way, I haven't seen anyone else mention the name of Amy's perfume: Petrichor... the smell of dust after rain. Nice touch. :)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:19 p.m. CST

    ginge_muppet

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    I don't think it was a poor episode. Quite the opposite in fact. It's simply that everyone appears to have been expecting a completely different episode and were therefore surprised by what they received. I won't repeat Notspock's answer here but I agree completely with what he said. I'm sorry you're not enjoying the show. In such circumstances, I would recommend maybe taking a break and coming back to it later. I personally think this season's been fantastic with only one or two less-than-stellar episodes. Can't wait to own the box set!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    Ok, spoiler questions..

    by notspock2

    So this Amy and Rory with Amy as the model in the department Store. is this the Amy and Rory who got the letter in TIA? Or is this Amy and Rory post being dropped off last week? Also, seriously? Colchester? they moved to Colchester? or were they just visiting? And did 200 years pass for the doctor between last weeks episode and this one? If the Doctor is ready to die now, I have 3 words.. Jim the Fish?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:21 p.m. CST

    v'shael

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    It's not a presumption and neither was it addressed to every single member of this talkback, hence the use of "some". I apologise if you misread or misunderstood me.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:23 p.m. CST

    notspock2 Jim the Fish was in the God Complex

    by HornOrSilk

    Save Jim the Fish.. didn't you catch that? ;)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:28 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Fair enough mate ... I'm the total opposite to you when it comes to this series ... I've truly enjoyed ONE episode and had to make excuses for all the others ...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:28 p.m. CST

    I have bad news about jim the fish

    by HornOrSilk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh4Jt5WjYwo&feature=player_embedded

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:28 p.m. CST

    @CBTML - No apology needed mate

    by V'Shael

    I know it was a generic statement and no personal offence was felt or anything. Apologies if I inferred a presumption where there wasn't any.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:30 p.m. CST

    More on Jim the Fish

    by HornOrSilk

    He has a facebook page

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:32 p.m. CST

    ginge_muppet

    by notspock2

    I think it was exciting and funny, I don't think it was reaching for greatness in an epic way, and I don't think it was great episode, mainly due to the threat (the cybermen) being too epic in their nature to be reduced to "There's 5 of them and a Rat." in their presentation here. Sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as I did...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    No problem, v'shael

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    FUN FACT: Apparently, other than your own name, the word "sorry" is the most common word you'll use in your life. (I read this somewhere recently)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    And those saying the Moff is bad with Cybermen

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember how cool his Cyberman was with the Pandorica.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    Yeah, not the best. But I enjoyed it!!! (spoilers)

    by gotilk

    Killing cybermen with *love* seems like an ending designed by studio suits responding to test screening response cards, not the genius responsible for this series. But it was a very fun romp and the preview/end was great!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:34 p.m. CST

    ginge_muppet

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    What did you think of last season, out of interest?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:38 p.m. CST

    And remember this episode is -- spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    Part of his farewell tour; he knows he is going to his death -- but, like the end of the 10th Doctor, he wants to do things before...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:39 p.m. CST

    Avoiding spoilers for the next 4 1/2 hours, but has anyone posted this?

    by The Transformed Man

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-dr.-who-became-my-religion/

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:44 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Agreed on Matt Smith, he's been phenomenal

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Prequel for next week...link for US viewers

    by gotilk

    http://youtu.be/OG5p-pNtjc0

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:49 p.m. CST

    Nods to all kinds of Cybermen stories in it

    by HornOrSilk

    Silver Nemesis, too... And remember the Invasion, folks. Remember the Invasion.

  • I just finished watching it and enjoyed every minute of it. I am sorry to hear a lot of fans didn't. As to the way the Cybermen were handled in this story, hey, sometimes, the Doctor can encounter an enemy when he (or they) are not at full power, but, still want to conquer the world. That's one of the things I liked, I also like Craig's return, the baby talk, and, of course, the ending, which I won't say anything about, spoilers. I liked it and, again, I'm sorry to hear some of you didn't.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 3:58 p.m. CST

    RIGHT. CALM DOWN.

    by Sundaycall1

    First of all, I thoroughly THOROUGHLY enjoyed that. I, like many have become accustomed to the good old tried and tested formula of BIG TWO PART FINALE. where shit goes down, all is lost but by part two the Doctor figures out a plan and pulls it all back from the brink. Like last year, as someone pointed out, Amy died, the Doctor was in the pandorica, Rory was a robot and the universe ended. And the fun of the finale was joyously unfolding how exactly, the Doctor was gonna sort this hit out. This year, and I have seriously enjoyed this series, isn't like that. We've known since 15 mins into episode 1 what is coming. And the key to the delivery of this story is giving a sense of inevitability, that this is the endgame and in terms of the finale if you do two parts and initially set up the BAD SITUATION with one episode to go, we as the viewer know the Doctor will knock this Mofo out. This year that isn't happening. And although I think there will be an out. As a story I think it's better that we only have one ep left as it certainly leads me to believe it won't all be tied up in a neat little bow in one show. Therefore it's more exciting. As for the show tonight on it's own, I loved it, except granted it could have been any villain. But I liked corden, matt smith was fantastic, his silly clowning I thought was a minor delight throughout, his moment in the shop when he spots THEM, he grows in this ep and like in the doctors wife, the title character actually properly developing is actually quite rare in this show. Frankly I will admit smith holds it all together, had tennant attempted an ep like this it may have descended into something that we'd look back on and and not be too fond of, but I will look at this like the Lodger as a romp although this will raise itself higher because smiths arc brings a weight and emotional quality that the Lodger didn't have. 8/10. Bring on the finale moff u crafty fucker

  • I will be checking it out now.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:02 p.m. CST

    I'm enjoying it

    by HornOrSilk

    There are a few things I wish they didn't feel the need to do in it -- Craig is not as good as in the Lodger -- however, I find it better than a lot of people are suggesting. And the perfume has to have significance. She isn't waiting. Ok. Got it. If she got tired of waiting, what is she telling the Doctor? Or maybe --to herself (old Amy)?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST

    Here is a conundrum

    by 2LeggedFreak

    River in Spacesuit By Day of the Moon its a little girl in the spacesuit who regenerates into....Mel? Who regenerates into River So some very definite Timey Wimey stuff between the end of this episode and Day of the Moon.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:06 p.m. CST

    2legged freak

    by notspock2

    The little girl is in 69. River is in 2011... I suspect 69 is the training that she was given... Interesting that post hypnotic suggestion can traverse regenerations...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:07 p.m. CST

    2leggedfreak

    by HornOrSilk

    Actually, was it a little girl in the space suit who shot the Doctor? That was always a question..

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:08 p.m. CST

    His speech to Stormy

    by HornOrSilk

    Classic

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:11 p.m. CST

    Visual clue to the eyepatches

    by HornOrSilk

    Doctor in this episode?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:12 p.m. CST

    And another line

    by HornOrSilk

    Reprogram it and use it as a weapon...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:17 p.m. CST

    I didn't expect too much going in to it, however... SPOILERS

    by Lone Fox

    I'm no particular fan of Corden, but I really enjoyed it. I found his final offer to help the Doctor quite moving, and the sadness in almost everything the Doctor said throughout, even when he was joking, really permeated the entire episode, spiralling down towards putting on the fateful Stetson. River's appearance was a surprise (for me anyway) and the whole sequence leading to her in the suit underwater was quite chilling and, well... mean. Speaking of which, I really though Craig was a goner, another fatality to add to the Doctor's guilt. It maybe would've been better had he not survived, but still it was nice to see good triumph... whether it was love or not, it made for a nice dismissal of the notion by the Doctor. Amy and Rory were also a surprise, yet more clues(?) that I have no idea what to do with.

  • If you play with the buttons, the Muppets eat each other. One does feel like Google's punk-bitch, though.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST

    I must say...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Halfway through...and I love... SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stormaggeddon, and the billboard, For the girl who is tired off waiting

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    Also, having them as not full power

    by HornOrSilk

    Allows for all kinds of weaknesses, so as not to neuter them when at full power.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:21 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights : Last season ...

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    I generally enjoyed ... The Eleventh Hour is one of the greatest episodes since Who returned in 2005 ... The Weeping Angels two-parter very solid ... Amy's choice, fascinating viewing ... Vincent and the Doctor, Moving and brilliant. The finale was exciting and clever (The Pandorica an interesting creation) but like all of RTD's endings it did disappoint slightly. At the end I thought ... very solid start for Smith and if its just the first course before the main meal (this season) we are in for something special ... I can't quite place why I have disliked this year so much ... it just feels like so much hard work for obvious and bland conclusions ...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:22 p.m. CST

    nerfee

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Ha! That's brilliant!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:23 p.m. CST

    And I think these are Cybus Cybermen

    by HornOrSilk

    While you should remember the Invasion, remember Rise for the Cybermen and how the Cybus Cybermen can't deal with emotions. It's not really a stretch going on here.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    HOLD IT. Something truly annoying just accured to be...

    by Sundaycall1

    The whole issue with Amy and Rory very VERY quickly accepting that they will never raise their child and just get on with their adventures is one big hiccup BUT... Having watched the ep tonight, the foreboding, the doctors death etc. In the god complex, Amy is dropped off By the doctor, tearful goodbye, farewell, see you later pond, and she just ACCEPTS IT. To my knowledge Amy does not know that HE KNOWS WORS COMING!! And even if she did it's just like CHEERIO AND GOOD LUCK TRY NOT TO DIE! Hat is just poor story telling. She'd be flailing around trying to warn him, trying to help and not be cast aside. Being scared. Nothing. And I'm embarrassed that it just occurred to me. FAIL MOFF

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Holy Crap!!!!!!

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Spoilers! LOL, The sonic made the third sound thats on the toy one! I always wondered why that noise was on there! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:33 p.m. CST

    I somewhat predicted the end

    by HornOrSilk

    While the event itself didn't happen, they did the lead up so already, many questions have been answered. More than you might at first think.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    sundaycall1

    by Lone Fox

    I initially thought the same thing, but after last week and someone (Argh I forget who it was again! Sorry!) mentioning that characters were acting almost 'out of sequence', I think there is a reason for Amy's (in particular) irregular behaviour. The question is, will we get the answer next week???

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:35 p.m. CST

    And we do see in the trailer...

    by HornOrSilk

    A Dalek

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:37 p.m. CST

    ginge_muppet

    by CHRISTIAN_BALE_TRASHED_MY_LIGHTS

    Interesting! I expected you to be quite negative about the previous season but you're the opposite. I wonder why this season hasn't had the same effect? It's a shame. I loved last season (and pretty much share your views on all the episodes you've listed there, although I wasn't disappointed by the ending) but have found this season to be much stronger. Sure, there have been one or two episodes that weren't really my cup of tea (namely Night Terrors and The Rebel Flesh) but I personally place them higher than Victory Of The Daleks (which is my least popular Eleven story) and the Silurian two-parter (which I thought was incredibly average) respectively. I've also really enjoyed the season storyline. The cracks in time leading into the Pandorica was brilliant, but I've had even more fun with this one.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:38 p.m. CST

    darthdevious

    by The Transformed Man

    THE THIRD SONIC SOUND??? FINALLY!!!!!!!!!! I've always wondered why they did that with the toy!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:46 p.m. CST

    So, we now know exactly who was in the suit under the lake...

    by Kevin Bolinger

    And really, I was not that surprised

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:49 p.m. CST

    Horn

    by Kevin Bolinger

    They cannot be Cybus Cybermen, because the ship was crashed and buried hundreds of years ago...the CC were only create recently, in this whoniverse anyway...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    christian_bale_trashed_my_lights

    by GINGE_MUPPET

    Its interesting you mentioned the cracks in time ... They really 'hooked' me into last season, more so than anything this year has offered. I think part of me is just VERY ready for the entire Amy/Rory/River saga to end ... its suffocated this years episodes, to a point where it becomes hard to remember any high class stand-alone episodes. The basic premise/arc this year is an interesting one ... but hardly earth shattering, and its being told in such a heavy way that it just sucks all the enjoyment out of it.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Lone fox

    by Sundaycall1

    We bloody better. I have been all loved with this series. Bring it all home moff. Don't let me down.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5 p.m. CST

    Those Cybermen were certainly different to the

    by Seph_J

    ones we've seen so far since Who returned in 2005. Their voices were different for a start. I actually really liked them.... until. *sigh*

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:04 p.m. CST

    I don't think they're Cybus Cybermen

    by DoctorTom

    but not for the reason that darthdevious gave. Remember, when the Daleks stole the planets they were breaking the universe that let some of the Cybermen stuck in Limbo (from the end of Season 2) fall through. When they fell through they fell through into the past so that we could have The Next Doctor. So, them having shown up in the past wouldn't disqualify them. <br> The thing that disqualifies them is that the Cybus Cybermen did not have any ships with them when they invaded Earth, so wouldn't have had any ships when they came out of Limbo. Therefore, they're not Cybus Cybermen. Them being a ship that crashed during The Invasion makes far more sense.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:04 p.m. CST

    crazy theory department

    by sHitkid

    Anyone thought of the possibility that there is a ganger of River running around? It would add some nice symmetry of the doctor fooling Lady Kavorian with the same trick she fooled him with twice... It also explains some of River's apparent memory lapses...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:10 p.m. CST

    Fish in God Complex

    by Fuck The Napkin

    Have I missed a discussion about one of them being called Jim? Because that would make sense... it was definitely odd how much time was spent showing and referring to those fish in the bowl. So maybe in the next episode River gets the Doctor to save Jim the Fish from being eaten by David Walliams... or something? And that somehow does... Ah, this sort of thing just makes my head hurt.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:12 p.m. CST

    Just to weigh in, I rather enjoyed the episode overall

    by DoctorTom

    Were there a few problems here and there? Yeah. We didn't need Craig's emotions causing all the explosions. I didn't have a problem with his emotions causing feedback that screwed up the Cybermen, we've seen that type of thing when the inhibitor circuits on the Cybus Cybermen were overridden (and presumably our universe's Cybermen have something similar. It might be slightly malfunctioning for them by the time we get the Welsh Cybermen in Revenge of the Cybermen, or the 'Exccccccelent' David Banks Cybermen, but generally there should be something there. And, even though the show made a point about how they were all weakened, the Cybermen don't come out looking as powerful as they ought to (a far cry from the one Cybershell in The Pandorica Opens). <br> I did enjoy Stormageddon, and the Doctor talking with him about being old. It was also nice to have a nice fun romp. I suspect that if it hadn't been the next to the last episode of the season that some people might not have disliked it as much, but that's the breaks. It was also nice seeing the whole bit with Amy and the whole Petricor ad. It's nice seeing Amy and Rory acting happy. <br> So, while not climbing to the top of the list, overall it seemed an enjoyable story and something to cleanse the palette before we jump into the finale next week.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:14 p.m. CST

    f the napkin - no the fish in The God Complex wasn't Jim

    by DoctorTom

    River had no involvement in last week's episode. River was with the Doctor meeting Jim the Fish.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:22 p.m. CST

    Where does this episode fit in, timewise?

    by DoctorTom

    That's obviously Amy and Rory after they've been dropped off. At some points the Doctor was talking like it was the calender tomorrow that would be when he died, not just tomorrow for him. If it were the earlier Amy and Rory, and it was the next day for them when the Doctor would die, they wouldn't be in the store - they'd be on a flight going over to the United States. If it were the older Amy and Rory and it took place the day before the Doctor's death, Amy would probably try to break time in order to save the Doctor by going to the lake despite her younger self also being there. <br> So, this must actually take place after the date of the Doctor's death. <br> <br> And, to address SundayCall1's points, when she knew the Doctor he had been 909, plus however much time he spent away between A Good Man Goes To War and Let's Kill Hitler. She's probably thinking that he still has many years of actual life left so wasn't as worried about it - if she was thinking about it at all. Given everything else that has happened, she might have been focused on other things and didn't recall it until after the Doctor left. Or, Silents made her forget to tell the Doctor then. <br> <br> Still, going back to The Impossible Astronaut, the Silent instructed Amy to tell the Doctor what he must not ever know. Was the thing to tell him that she's seen him die? Or was is something else?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:27 p.m. CST

    Oh yes, and the blue setting on the sonic screwdriver

    by DoctorTom

    I looked back, it didn't change color when he ran the app for the Cybermat. There's definitely something funny going on around the 35 minute mark with the sonic.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:28 p.m. CST

    One other thing I liked (mild spoilers)

    by DoctorTom

    the baby saying Doctor.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:29 p.m. CST

    just to be safe, assume spoilers on all the previous posts

    by DoctorTom

    except the Jim the Fish one

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:29 p.m. CST

    shitkid.. *SPEC THAT MIGHT BE SPOILERS*

    by notspock2

    Yes, I have thought about that as a possibility... and I don't rule it out. Seems more likely to me though that the key to what's going on lies in "a christmas carol" with characters changing before our eyes in the present as their past is changed. This could explain the doctor not remembering having kissed river in Day of the moon, Amy and Rory's attitude to the search for melody, the emergence of Mel's, and might serve to explain how rivers hypnotic programming to kill the Doctor will be undone...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:37 p.m. CST

    darthdevious

    by HornOrSilk

    Cybermen have limited time travel ability.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Who is to say it isn't Jim the Fish?

    by HornOrSilk

    You assume the Doctor doesn't meet the fish again?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Post 500.

    by notspock2

    Just saying...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:54 p.m. CST

    Horn, that's not Jim

    by DoctorTom

    Jim was building dams. The goldfish didn't look like a particularly powerful telekinetic and didn't have arms, so it might find building dams a little hard.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Jim the Fish

    by Fuck The Napkin

    Yeah, maybe River and the Doctor met/meet him another time, and having him survive the God Complex changes things somehow, so going back and saving him is important, or not... I don't know. But there was definitely something fishy about the fact that fishbowl was shown so much when there were clearly other bits left out of the episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:56 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    You don't know how Jim builds dams; he might have Ogrons do it for all you know.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 5:57 p.m. CST

    I even wonder if the dam Jim builds

    by HornOrSilk

    Is a way to save the Doctor... and River was giving the Doctor a clue...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6 p.m. CST

    I mean Jim the Fish's dam

    by HornOrSilk

    Could be quite useful at Lake Silencio.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:14 p.m. CST

    Horn - maybe Jim the Fish is building a Time Dam

    by DoctorTom

    hey, it's as least as probable as the goldfish having Ogrons do it.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:15 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi -- and everyone -- this goes with the prequel

    by HornOrSilk

    Look how time is standing still...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:16 p.m. CST

    doctortom that would explain the prequel note above

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    SJA Season 5 Trailer

    by HornOrSilk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpb6AxSb0Gs&NR=1

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:17 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi

    by DoctorTom

    hello again! <br> I think that this time, it's playing out the way we saw it (at least for who's in the astronaut suit). Maybe the whole thing at Lake Silencio and how the Doctor gets out of it is what impressed young River to start with. <br> Though, I suspect that she'll be forgetting about the involvement of the Silents with Kovarian. That's actually been set up for us though, with Canton having forgot about them when the Doctor couldn't keep reminding him.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:18 p.m. CST

    Who bets that River's dissertation

    by HornOrSilk

    Was on the Doctor ?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:20 p.m. CST

    Likely, but not necessarily.

    by DoctorTom

    She might have done a paper on Hitler. Although since she got the Doctorate, I don't think in her dissertation she'd claim it was because the Doctor didn't stop him.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 6:21 p.m. CST

    doctortom --

    by HornOrSilk

    I got the feeling she just earned it and was looking over some of the date she used for it... the kids seeing the Doctor before he dies... I did wonder, what if one of them were her?

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:02 p.m. CST

    Big Time Spoiler Image

    by HornOrSilk

    http://tinyurl.com/3vfdybh

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:05 p.m. CST

    'You've redecorated...

    by I am not a number

    ...I don't like it.' Nice call back to the second Doctor.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:16 p.m. CST

    chucknorrissayshi

    by HornOrSilk

    I liked it too; and hoped it would make some smiles. Certainly there is something with _fish_ and fish with fingers....

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 7:26 p.m. CST

    Believe!!

    by Type 40

    I just wanted to chime in and say - I liked this episode - and I'm really not a fan of Corden's. I thought The Lodger was just an okay episode. For me, the inclusion of the proto-TARDIS was what lifted it above the norm. In Closing Time, it was refreshing to see the Doctor away from Amy & Rory - where he could really shine!! I was disappointed that the cybermen weren't used much as others have pointed out. I'm glad that this year's finale is going to be different from last year - keeps us on our toes!!! Believe!!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:03 p.m. CST

    The prequel to the next episode refers to a date with destiny

    by pirandello

    Perhaps The Doctor is going on a date... If there can be two Amys of differing ages and destinies in an episode, that means there can be two River Song with differing ages and destinies. If River never becomes Kavorian (eventually ending up in the Library), she'll end up not being kidnapped by her older self. Amy and Rory will end up bringing up their baby as a Time Lord child who's last regeneration will be River Song. At least the River reprogrammed by her older alternate self will not be in the position to kill The Doctor. She might condemn her future self to never (have) exist(ed) - echoing the choice her father made. If the Doctor is going on a date with River, he'll need some advice about romance. I think even here on this site there are few people who haven't had sex in over 900 years...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:31 p.m. CST

    Did not like this episode

    by I am not a number

    Have to add this to the large pile of rubbish Cybermen stories the show has amassed over the years (and the Cybermen are my favorite monsters). I liked little moments, but the whole affair was so BLAND. Felt like someone just making stuff happen to eat up time. And I'm really getting tired of the screwdriver being used like a magic wand (now it can make the universe appear on the ceiling, and zap cybermats with a green ray!). And the mawkish love-conquers-all defeat of the Cybermen was cheap and lazy. Lucky for Craig that these Cybermen don't start with the circular saw and electrodes the way the Cybus ones do to convert people. Still better than the pirate episode though.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:42 p.m. CST

    Well, I'm kind of enjoying this episode.

    by The Transformed Man

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:42 p.m. CST

    This Season Seems Campy...

    by Gary Cochran

    This season seems to be less serious and kinda campy in some episodes (not a good thing). This week was a good example of that. Even the music seems silly or circusy. Overall I liked last season's Matt Smith better then this season.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:57 p.m. CST

    I'm surprised to see all the negative reviews!

    by Rebel Scumb

    I think this was easily one of, if not THE best episode so far this season. I liked it a lot more than God Complex, The Girl Who waited, Night Terrors or The Doctor's wife. But hey that's just me.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 8:57 p.m. CST

    karmafan

    by Rebel Scumb

    The who show has been campy since 1963.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9 p.m. CST

    SPOILERS if you've not seen it

    by batmancw

    In betweenst the fun with Stormageddon & Craig the Doctor seems awfully tired & resigned to his fate. So for Craig, Sophie & the Ponds it seems that a few years, at least, have passed--the Petrichor perfume ad was a nice touch, as was the gift of the Stetson & the endcap with River, the Silence & Madame K--WOW So what will give the Doctor the will to live? How will he evade this fixed point in time? Will all future adventures be flashbacks to the 200 years he's been running? What IS the first question? Tune in next week Same bat time Same bat channel.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:06 p.m. CST

    510xh017573r: you must really love Twilight then!

    by Rebel Scumb

    Since you've apparently watched all of this season, and are taking the time to discuss it online!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:09 p.m. CST

    What A Brillant Episode! ( A spolier )

    by Real Deal

    If you didn't like or get the jokes in this episode you've just got no sense of humor! Spoiler space! " For The Girl Who's Tired Of Waiting ". Brillant!

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:12 p.m. CST

    Plus the perfume was called Petrichor

    by I am not a number

    Which was the word the TARDIS told Amy and Rory to use in THE DOCTOR'S WIFE

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:13 p.m. CST

    perigee-LOVE that promo image & thoughts on the finale

    by batmancw

    It's the Time Traveling Justice League!! And as for EVERYTHING being wrapped up--I agree with all who find that very unlikely. Probably the death of the Doctor @ Lake Silencio arc-YES the Order of the Silence and or who is REALLY behind all this, who was controlling the Tardis on those occasions--probably NOT If we gotta wait a year for the new season they'll definitely want to leave us hanging a bit

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:18 p.m. CST

    I agree Real Deal

    by Rebel Scumb

    This was also the best paced episode of the season, which is the main reason I liked it. While I enjoyed The Doctors Wife, Night Terrors, God Complex & the girl who waited, and each of them had more ambitious premises than this episode, all of them felt to me like they were meant to be part 1 of 2, just when the story felt like it was in the middle, all of a sudden it wrapped up quickly. The set ups for the situations were so complex, that the endings felt abrupt and a bit underwelming in my opinion (though far from terrible episodes). Closing Time felt like a proper episode of television to me, it moved along at a good pace, kept me guessing until the end, and I'm not sure if it's because I've been rewatching the RTD stuff where very likeable side characters die regularly but I actually thought they had really killed poor Craig. Was him being brought back by love cheesy? Absolutely! But the doctor effectively hung a lantern on that, and as this episode was the sequel of sorts to 'the lodger' I was expecting a broader more comedy based episode not to be taken too seriously (should the show ever be?) As for the Cybermen, and the poor use of them some are citing. Granted, if they're your favorite monster than I can sort of understand that, but to be fair, how many really good Cybermen episodes have there ever been? I haven't seen all of the classic series appearances for them, but so far Earthshock is the only one I've caught so far that was pretty decent. This was never going to be a big epic Cybermen story. I see it not so much as 'a cybermen episode' but more accurately 'an epsiode that had cybermen in it' sort of like 'a good man goes to war'.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Finale to Christmas special transition...

    by Rebel Scumb

    It will be interesting to see how they leave things off as there will be the christmas special before season 7 starts. I mean they aren't likely to end with a huge cliffhanger or the doctor being dead or something like that the way some shows might where they want to leave you hanging until the premiere the following year, at the same time as has been said they are unlikely to wrap everything up, so it will be interesting to see how they leave things off.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:21 p.m. CST

    James Corden was so awful I couldn't make it through this episode

    by cerberus

    This guy killed the episode. He was just that bad. The only way this episode could have been saved was if The Doctor dropped Craig off on the Enterprise so Captain Picard could make fat jokes and then vaporize him when Craig tries to get up in his face.* *True story, Corden tried to start a fight with Patrick Stewart because he called him fat.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:23 p.m. CST

    chucknorris--re the sonic flashlight

    by batmancw

    I havent re watched it yet but it sure seemed to me that the sonic turned into an LED type flashlight after he said he had an app

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:36 p.m. CST

    I don't really get all the hate against Corden

    by Rebel Scumb

    But then the only thing I've ever seen him in is his 2 Doctor Who episodes, both of which I really liked.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:43 p.m. CST

    @rebel scum--to others--SPOILERS if you've not seen

    by batmancw

    Agree re the use of the Cybermen This was EXACTLY "an episode that had Cybermen in it". Some might consider it lazy writing, but I think it did what it needed to do---you had to have a villain, and the long crashed Cyber ship idea was OK with me, and there had to be SOME degree of set up for the finale--not JUST the "whammy" endcap, but the Doctor's seeming tiredness of his life, & seeming resignation to his death. I enjoyed the humor with Stormageddon as well as the love conquers tech saving of Craig. As you & others have said--the Doctor can STILL be fun even when he's in peril and morose Re: the Xmas special--there's some spolier images over at the aptly named dr who spoilers site, that will answer SOME questions should you want to see them.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:51 p.m. CST

    stromageddon

    by History101

    how long before someone takes that on as a docback handle? Terrific episode. Laughed, smiled and sad all the same. Even if it is the ganger doctor there is still a death. I think a large portion of the trailer we saw will happen pre title sequence. Kind of a montage like last year.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 9:57 p.m. CST

    I just finished watching Closing Time

    by ComicGuru

    I was working late at the shop tonight as we had a comic signing today. It was magnificent. Very funny, moving and by turns very dark. Brilliantly played throughout and it was so nice to see Petrichor Perfume up for sale. Quite a nice surprise. Anyone know what Petrichor means? I think Gareth Roberts is definitely one of my favourite Who writers. I've loved his work since Highest Science. Now my money is on him succeeding The Moff if he ever decides to move on.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Petrichor

    by History101

    Petrichor, the name for the smell of rain on dry ground so says wordsmith.org

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:17 p.m. CST

    I liked the episode

    by Gherkin

    Gave Mr. Smith some room to show off some pathos in his acting. Corden was good. I, too, expected him to be a goner at the end there. As a standalone, it was a fine episode with some real emotional interaction. Didn't care much for all the crass joking, but the interaction with the baby was funny.<br> My only qualm, as others have mentioned, is that as the next-to-last episode of the season, it seemed to leave a great deal unresolved, and it is hard to imagine how Moffat will wrap it all up in 45 mins. However, he managed to do well with River's "origin" episode and still had some time left over, so I imagine he will be able to pull it off.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:20 p.m. CST

    Oh, and on the use of the Cybermen...

    by Gherkin

    Some seem to feel the episode cheapened them. However, it allowed the writers to use a well-established enemy that didn't require a lot of extra set-up in the story. We knew immediately what the danger was and it left more "play-time" for the writers.<br> Oh... and just now realized the import of the Petrichor reference. Nice easter egg ;-)

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:24 p.m. CST

    Spoilers

    by Dave Sills

    I enjoyed the episode - slight, but humorous. Loved the last few minutes. When River sees the Silence and asks who they are, Kovarian's sneering reply, "Your owners." Ouch. And that moment as they bring in the suit was kind of chilling. Makes sense why River missed every shot she took at the astronaut in TIA - it would've created a paradox had she shot a younger version of herself. I'm anxious to see what the endgame is.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:54 p.m. CST

    It feels like this series has been told out of order.

    by Smashing

    Like the opening episode was the season finale, this wasn't a terrible episode but as the one before the last one I was surprised for another self contained, classic feel story. Also Craig didn't defeat the Cybermen with love, it was a technical thing the doc started to explain, realised no one would understand/cared and went with his pets over simplistic viewpoint. It also explained The Next Doctors ending. It started OK, kinda felt a bit filler for the middle, a lot of the recent stories whilst very well made and told have kinda sagged in the middle, which isn't great, though the endings have had a kinda Angel type intensity and I like them. It's nearly 5am now and I'm going to bed, night and Renee, Fro and Si I hope you liked the episode.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 10:57 p.m. CST

    How to make the Cybermen Evil

    by veteran_of_mu

    As a side note I've just opened Thyrsus's scripting board up to anonymous voting and anonymous commenting. And I've added a premise - that Cybermen are finally truly evil. That's to say you can't blow them up with love. Can't kill them with gold dust. Can't sonic them into submission. They are what they really should always have been - humans in impenetrable suits. Because there's nothing more horrible than an invulnerable human. All that emotion removal makes the Cybermen into morons. You put anyone - even Craig - into a cybersuit and let them stay who they are ... you've got a walking tragedy.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:09 p.m. CST

    Oh, and on Closing Time

    by veteran_of_mu

    The funny bits were funny. I laughed. Loved the shush, Stormageddon, and Nurse Gladys Emmanuel. The Doctor Who bits were pathetic. Really, truly, wretchedly, horribly, shamefully bad. And I have a theory about that. Just a tiny one. I think The Moff is a great writer but a lousy judge of human character. I think he's picked writers who can't follow his direction and who don't even try. Now I know some of you feel that this ep requires lower expectations - but I had the ep spoiled by the premature release of the confidential footage on Youtube last week. I knew it was going to suck. And I am a parent, so that doesn't wash either. What they did with the Sonic was corrupt - it does not and cannot shoot beams. What they did with the Cybermen was corrupt - they do not explode in the presence of love no matter whether they're Cybus or Mondas. And what they did with River was corrupt because she should have killed those Silents ON SIGHT. Maybe they'll retcon over that last one by saying her conditioning by the Silents was stronger than her deconditioning by the Moon Landing tape. But the fact is they didn't need to put Silents in this abominable scene at all. It would have been enough for Kavorkian to snap her fingers and sing the Chop Chop song, then have River go blank and get into the Astronaut suit. Post hypnotic suggestions are like that, you know. So crap. I mean, really, that episode was just bloody stupid. Funny, liked Corden, liked Smith, liked the Petrichor fragrance, but dumb, dumb, dumb. I still have hopes for the finale, though, because as I understand it it was written by a fellow named Steven Moffatt.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:14 p.m. CST

    Why reinitialize the loop, and Autoinfanticide? ~Spoilers for 13~

    by Perigee

    Actually, I kind of enjoyed this episode - I think there was more in it than a lot of people think. Of course, I wasn't really looking forward to a bad guy, anyway - and the episode was pretty much what I wanted - a monologue. The Doctor had a chance to bounce a lot of himself off of Alfie and Cordon. And they gave Cordon a line or two that needed saying. So, I didn't really miss the Cybermen - they were a red herring excuse for the monologue. But, here's what I'm really chewing on: 1) The Doctor sets in motion the events of the last season by sending the letters - and we saw him grab the envelopes tonight. And then, presumably, goes to his death. So everyone can assemble and go through the season, so he can send the letters and go to his death. So everyone can assemble and go through the season, so he can send the letters and go to his death. So everyone can assemble and go through the season, so he can send the letters and go to his death. Why? Why loop it, when avoiding the whole affair is as easy as not sending the letters? 2) As I had mentioned earlier in a spoiley, The time that we're stuck at in 13 could very Very well correspond to the minute of River's birth, 40 weeks after Amy's wedding. We haven't seen anything that remarkable about River that would cause the universe to go plop. But we did see an episode called "Let's Kill Hitler." A reference to time-travel paradox. Let's consider Autoinfanticide. River didn't miss. Young River makes it into the water and dies in Lake Silencio. No more regens for her - she's toast. Old River kills Young River. Philosophy on this paradox is twofold: one, that Old River disappears promptly after killing young River, because - being dead already - Old River could not exist. That didn't happen. The other theory is nicely explained in wiki on the page for Grandfather Paradox: Parallel universes/alternate timelines There could be "an ensemble of parallel universes" such that when the traveller kills the grandfather, the act took place in (or resulted in the creation of) a parallel universe where the traveler's counterpart _never_exists_as_a _result_ (emphasis, mine). However, his prior existence in the original universe is unaltered. Succinctly, this explanation states that: if time travel is possible, then multiple versions of the future exist in parallel universes. Alternate time lines would also apply if a person went back in time to shoot himself, because in the past he would be dead as in the future he would be alive and well. Well, then we have a timeline in which River never shot The Doctor. (My head is starting to hurt. That's a good sign...) But River is a Time-head. More complicated? The universe trying to reconcile dead/not dead like the TARDIS trying to reconcile pregnant/not pregnant? But it buys an alternate timeline Doctor time to sort things out. An alternate timeline with area 52, and a pyramid, and lots of interesting art with familiar faces with new looks. Spoily people know that there are timey-wimey things about to happen before the last scenes of this episode. Something will end - somethings will have never existed. And if that isn't vague enough for you, I don't know what would be...

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:17 p.m. CST

    BTW I forgot to say ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    I liked Perigree's (?) idea a couple of Docbacks back that the way to make Daleks evil is to shut them up. Noddys talking when they should be exterminating scare no one. Remains to be seen whether the big salt shaker in next week's ep. makes that any easier to do.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:25 p.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by Perigee

    The River the Silents pow-wowed with happened Pre-moon tape. Pre-Silence in the Library, even. She had Just become a 'Doctor' that day. The moon tape happened after The Doctor was shot.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:31 p.m. CST

    @Perigee ... no way ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    Because no way did River become an archeologist without having seen the moon tape at some stage. If the Doc created a second universe when he mucked around with the moon tape then we've got rather a different theory of time travel operating than we're used to I think.

  • Sept. 24, 2011, 11:32 p.m. CST

    So the sonic screwdriver can now *spoiler*

    by The Transformed Man

    soup up a baby's harmony lantern and turn it into a planetarium?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:03 a.m. CST

    *spoilers*

    by The Transformed Man

    I thought the "saving the day with love* thing at least made more sense this time than it usually does. Although Craig has now struck down evil with love twice. But I can see strong emotion corrupting Cyberman programming.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:05 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts - mia culpa; I was thinking linearly.

    by Perigee

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:09 a.m. CST

    Not Cybus cybermen

    by hadrion

    Deliberate effort to make sure there was no 'C' on their chests, cybusmen haven't used a cybermat before, different conversion process, and very old ship. Thoughts?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:15 a.m. CST

    The Doctor lies

    by History101

    Now, I know there a lot of unanswered questions and only some will ever be answered.... but why would the doctor lie about his age... assuming he is lying. I do not get the impression that the man who just put on the cowboy hat has been around for 200 years after dropping off Amy and Rory. And what about all that running around in history. And did he pop back to the Library and check out River's book to play along? How far along her timeline is the River from TIA and DOTM? Based on the first/last kiss line, i would say very far We still have a doctor without a Tardis at the lake and then the "younger" in the restaurant. and... wait, how long is next weeks episode?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Haters gon' hate...

    by dj_bollocks

    Funny bunch Doctor Who fans... I'm with Christian Bale and Axcel and those that enjoyed it - not just myself but for those who want their Who a little more accessible. It was fun, relatable, well shot, and most of all entertaining. I've liked pretty much everything we've been served up (still not too keen on the Pirates). It wasn't perfect, it wasn't the best of the season but it was still a great episode, and no mention of the spaceship that he'd seen again, since the last time he saw Craig... intruiging ! As Christian Bale mentioned, people's levels of expectation are funny - I'll be interested to see the AI on this one - their might be a lot of hardcore Who haters, but a load of part time Who positives - we'll see. And erm no one's thought to mention that "The Doctor will die" might be Doctor River Song ? Thought that was shoe horned in quite nicely at the end... Time can be rewritten... I think the end of the episode might have served up a few red herrings...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:35 a.m. CST

    Sundaycall-

    by sam jacksons wig

    ***To my knowledge Amy does not know that HE KNOWS WORS COMING*** Didn't she balls up in the rebel flesh by thinking she told the Ganger he was going to die, when infact she told the real Doc????

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:03 a.m. CST

    Let's look at the episode again- upon reflection.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    Okay, I've had about 6 hours sleep, which for me is probably as good as it gets lately. However, i feel quite refreshed, and have managed to purge myself of last nights reactionary impulses. Having looked at the episode again I am going to make a comparison to Harry Potter and the Half Blood prince. What, I hear you cry? Rowling on a DocBack?????? What heresy is this, SJW??? Well, for those of you familiar with both the book and the movie version, consider this. HBP hit theatres, and there was a cry of "so what?" from many people who had read and loved the book. Key scenes had been left out- horcruxes and backstory on Tom Riddle discarded, and more importantly the final bloody battle afer the death of Dumbledore between Death Eaters and Order guys was not even filmed. When quizzed on why this GROSS oversight had taken place, David Yates simply said " I didn't want any of that going into the final movie. I didn't want it to overshadow what I have in store. I wanted to set it up." So, I looked upon the Closing Time episode with that principle in mind. What we have here is a muted episode with a few flaws (much like HBP) and a reigned in approach, that mainly concentrates on the Docs last nights, and what he chooses to do with them. I truly believe that the episode was never meant to be action-centric, but more character driven as our Timelord tries in vain to leave everything behind but, because of his nature (the pesky pupeteer weilding a stick to poke) and ultimately (yes, that word again) love for humanity he can't resist trying to change things for the good. To have a balls to the wall episode filled with action would not have worked here, taking the onus from what I desperately want to be a finale that grabs me by the throat, shakes the living shit out of me and dumps me like a date after prom night. But the main mistake they made was using the Cybermen to very little end. Some on here are saying that Nu-Who is systematically destroying the credibility of these iconic villans; that's a statement I disagree with, but Closing Time didn't do the Cybermen any favours. They needed to be handled with the respect they deserve, not just wheeled out for a cheap pop and an easy out. And yes, love will save the day is getting very old unless it becomes the central theme going into the last- the love River has for the Doc over-riding time and space. Using that as the meat in the sandwich would go great guns to explaining alot of motivation our protagonists have experienced. So, whilst certainly not the greatest episode in the Who canon (and I stand by my comment that I believe it is the weakest of Nu-Who), looking at it differently has helped me like it a little bit more. the performance from Smith was a joy to behold, and as said previously I have no issues with Corden here and what he does. perhaps less "WAS" more??? SJW.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:05 a.m. CST

    @djb

    by veteran_of_mu

    I think if you look back at earlier docbacks you'll find most of the people who didn't care for CT have been enthusiastic about most of this season. And you yourself don't care for COTBS, which I think many would place ahead of CT. So it's probably not quite right to think of the people who disagree with you as haters. They're just different people to you. That's a good thing, isn't it?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:10 a.m. CST

    cerebus- I disagree mate,...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...there was nothing wrong at all with Corden here. I feel he is shouldering the blame for a mediocre episode- something that is entirely not his fault. He did well with what he was given.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:13 a.m. CST

    510xh01573r - stop trolling here. It is not wanted.

    by sam jacksons wig

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:24 a.m. CST

    Cybermen and such

    by Noel

    These are officially cybermen from OUR uiverse and not from parallel earth. There was better flow to the dialogue for this lot and the voice synthesis was less mechanical that the alt-verse ones. Incidentally - anyone got alink to the prequel for next weeks finale that works outside the UK?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 1:54 a.m. CST

    caractacus- amen, brother!!!! Agree with you totally there!!!...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...I am certainly NOT a Who hater, and have loved 95% of what I've seen this series, INCLUDING (deep breath, batten down the hatches) COTBS , which I considered a much needed romp after the brain frying double opener. I would certainly place that ahead of CT.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:15 a.m. CST

    sleekloon- link is within mate....

    by sam jacksons wig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5jfLakwuls Enjoy. SJW.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:23 a.m. CST

    Who kills the Doctor

    by Adam Jones

    Still think it would have been better if they had the Doctor kill himself. That would be more a shocker then bringing back River to the scene. They could have had the new doctor, yet to be cast, in the spacesuit. Some weird event causes the Doctor from the future to have to come back and kill his old self in order for him to continue on. The spacesuit could be designed that allows both Doctors to co-exist in the same time line. But no. now we have to wait another year for someone else to replace Smith. /sigh

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:29 a.m. CST

    If the Doc does die

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Then they can always use the Sledge Hammer approach for future seasons :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DchtFm88b-E

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:36 a.m. CST

    On Reflection

    by 2LeggedFreak

    Still thought it was a lesser variation of the Lodger and all felt a bit done before. I don't have a problem with the use of the cyber-men--- I'm not sure I agree they were diminished in this episode--- they still carried an element of menace and weren't made part of the comedy. Thinking about it though I did have one expectation going into this which may have coloured my view --that bloody Tardis on top of Craigs house --- will we ever know.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:49 a.m. CST

    banthabreeder

    by Kevin Bolinger

    why would you want someone to replace smith? he is one of the greatest doctors ever! and this is coming from a pertwee fan...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:52 a.m. CST

    Not a lot to add to this quite polarizing ep

    by tomdolan04

    Sunday morning here in the UK, I saw it last night. Quite a contradictory ep for me in that: <p> 1. I enjoyed the episode <p> 2. It was camp and funny to the point it felt a subtle version of an RTD era story (subtle with the gay joke references actually natural and appropriate) <p> 3. The River Song epilogue, and the way they've been shoehorning in arc bits in a quite 'dont care whether they fit or not' throughout EVERY episodes, are really REALLY starting to annoy. <p> Overall the episode both entertained me like a Who should but in the context of series 6 it illustrated how in my opinion Moff really has gone down several shades in my estimation. The whole over reaching River/Silence/Melody/Madame/Doctor Death arc has now become quite convoluted and, bar very VERY concise writing resolutions (which we've already been told by Merrick to an extent we're not getting in the finale) next week then I'm going to be quite bored. I AM bored with the main arc this year. This week I liked that Pond and co were jettisoned. Sue me! Sure the Cybermen were crapped all over but overall is 'Love conquering all' any better a plot mechanic than 'River being the Astronaut' (again unless we get an amazing reason WHY, it's just been a 'oh it SOUNDS cool and is a reason to tie in the character with her dark background we broadly sketched with her in series 4, in a similar vein to her being Amys daughter which we blatently invented in series 6 since River made no reference to it in S5). <p> Phew. That's the trouble with ranting about the arc now. Theres so much to cover. I'll put it this way - the only ones who care about the details of this arc and its intricacies now will be Docbacker types like me and you. The general viewing public just would like to be entertained. However the problem is in one hand Moff is pumping arc details all over the place to which we're picking out LOTS of holes, and in the other he's not resolving any of them in detail and just proving to be a pretty average writer by just throwing out more and more questions even up until the finale. <p> Eventually - you'll get X-Files syndrome and not give a shit where they are upto.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:53 a.m. CST

    On a positive note

    by 2LeggedFreak

    On a UK forum which is frequented by the non geeky general public last nights ep was voted excellent by 44% of posters. The thing to never forget ( I'm telling myself) is that if we had the ultra-geeky over complicated guff that I like, then Who would probably not be as successful and we'd end up with nothing. So I'll live with stuff that isn't my thing and realise that at least whilst it may not all be to my taste, there is necessarily something for everybody in there. In the last two seasons I've at least had:- The Eleventh Hour Amy's Choice Vincent & The Doctor The Lodger The Pandorica Opens The Big Bang The Impossible Astronaut Day of the Moon The Doctors Wife The God Complex The Girl Who waited A Good Man goes to War Can't really complain

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:55 a.m. CST

    with point 3 above I'd add that

    by tomdolan04

    Since it was the second to last ep, if they were going to run with the overall arc - they should have and it would have been OK. That ending last night just felt so tacked on. Admittedly they had to have a lead in to the finale but it felt quite forced.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:57 a.m. CST

    really enjoyed this episode, with one caveat...

    by Hideo Kojima

    I thought this episode was good, Corden was more annoying in this episode than in the Lodger.. However I enjoyed it overall and really got a kick out of the cybermat fight.. "hit it with the baking pan!" really fun. the one thing I took issue with is another "love conquers all" type ending, I believe this is the third (maybe fourth?) time this season where this was the way to defeat the big bad and/or bring about a resolution.. same ending 'twist' (I use that term loosely) was done just a few episodes ago w/ night terrors.. it seems to me someone on the writing team has daddy issues...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:59 a.m. CST

    and also with the general viewing public

    by tomdolan04

    so much in the way of arc details are flowing, they undoubtedly will be be getting in the way of people who just want to watch (and even revisit down the line) and enjoy standalone episodes <p>

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:03 a.m. CST

    re: chess

    by Hideo Kojima

    in the finale we see Korvarian offer to play a game of chess with the Doctor, on the condition that if he wins he shall live, but if he loses he shall be silenced. The Doctor wins and Korvarian becomes flustered and asks to pick another game.. "Fancy a football match?" asks the Doctor. Korvarian accepts. The Doctor wins 4-0. Korvarian complains that she can't play footy in heels. Korvarian suggests they play a game of Antarian Dice. After a much heated game, the Doctor is victorious.. Korvarian looks irritated and says, "best of three?"

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:07 a.m. CST

    2/3 of episode is good, 1/6 is bad, final 1/6 is great

    by Hideo Kojima

    4/6 = good = A rank x4 1/6 = bad = C rank x1 1/6 = great = S rank x1 overall: A++

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:33 a.m. CST

    Anyone care to put the episodes in chronological order now???

    by sam jacksons wig

    My brain is hurting thinking of which one unfolds before which, as yes, things are definately happening out of sync.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:36 a.m. CST

    The Doc and the loop of events....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...perhaps he has done it so there would be a chance that he could infact cheat his death. I have theorised previously the ouroboros effect, and it looks as if that may come to fruition here. How can the Doc die if he will infact live again, which calls into question his actions with the flesh, and my thoughts that he touched it deliberately.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:38 a.m. CST

    banthabreeder (spoilers) I think that we'll have to go with.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...River Song being the one who actually pulls off the shot, and we'll get the meaning of her words "Of course..." Maybe now we need to focus on how the Doc gets out of dying altogether. Well, not gets out of it, but finally cheats death.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:52 a.m. CST

    Fathers and Sons again and again

    by InfinityWave

    ...what is with the recurring theme this series? The father and son relationship in The Rebel Flesh/Almost People was central to resolving the two groups, there was the Pirate father and stowaway son in Curse of the Black Spot, the father saving his alien cuckoo son in Night Terrors, Craig and Alfie in last night's episode. Over and over, father and son love saving the day. Is this a shortcoming in this year's variety of episodes and themes, is that why some people have found this series lacking in dynamic plots, or is it very intentional? You could argue the overall theme this series has simply been family. Every River/Amy/Rory episode works as that, even Neil Gaiman's one had 'Uncle' as the baddie. Still, the father and son emphasis has me wondering now whether the Doctor being Rory's father is a better explanation for River being a Timelord. I feel like next week's episode will either show this series to be horribly repetitive by accident, or reveal the genius of a hugely important plan...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:05 a.m. CST

    Ummm ...

    by OhWhatTheFeckEver

    It was an average episode right up until the resolution, which completely spoiled it. If Craig had been converted, that would have raised it to above average. But, destroying Cybermen with love? Ummm ... No. Saying that, I enjoyed quite a few things in the episode. 'You've redecorated. I don't like it.' - Nod to Patrick Troughton in the Five Doctors, or just a coinkidink? Stormageddon - Just because. The humour - worked well for me. I really enjoyed the Craig/Doctor interplay. Matt Smith - I can never stop stating how much I love Matt's portrayal of the Doctor. Really, really love it. (speaking of which ...) The kissing-but-missing greeting - Every time the Doctor does the double kiss greeting to people I just smile. He performs it so awkwardly it's just really quite endearing. Could have been much better, but the whole love saves the day schmaltz spoiled it. Roll on next week.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:09 a.m. CST

    Hey Sam

    by Kevin Bolinger

    Just to let you know, I put an easter egg so to speak, just for you, in my story...lol, hope you spot it!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:12 a.m. CST

    Of course

    by question83

    I thought that the uttering of that phrase by River comes from realising that she can't of course shoot some supernatural astronaut with mere bullets. Also, does she know that she resides in that spacesuit ? She should already lived through this from her perspective, and yet when doc dies, she is as suprised as everyone else.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:16 a.m. CST

    Also

    by question83

    I hate how Cybermen are downplayed in this new episodes.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:17 a.m. CST

    Who kills the Doctor?

    by HornOrSilk

    River Song That, at least, is what history says.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:18 a.m. CST

    Killing Cybermen with emotions

    by HornOrSilk

    Again, it's been done before; we know they have a weakness with them which is why they have them disabled. And that they are disabled shows they are not Mondas Cybermen, which have the emotions removed, not disabled.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:23 a.m. CST

    Also also

    by question83

    Why do you want me dead ?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:24 a.m. CST

    How I think we will see Churchill

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor is going to be shown a vision of what happens if he doesn't let River kill him. A vision of Churchill somehow getting the Doctor's TARDIS and making the Doctor his prisoner. This could make the sequence short and all a diversion from the real story. I could be wrong.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:35 a.m. CST

    Two acceptable ways to resolve the Doctor's death

    by veteran_of_mu

    At least acceptable to me. And I'm not saying there aren't others. I'd just really dig something like: A) River kills the Doc, sinks back below the waves to a submersed proto-Tardis where Kovarian and Silents are waiting to plug her in like a light-bulb. She moves toward the glowing orb interface and ... The Tardis materialises between her in it. Doors fling open and Vashta and Jenny jump out shooting Kovarian and the Silents very dead. They hustle River into the Tardis where they deprogram her. Vashta tries to comfort River but River is inconsolable. Then Jenny whispers something in River's ear and hands her a tricorder. Jenny pilots the Tardis to Stormcage where commander Stormageddon of the Order of the Silence waits with handcuffs. He salutes. Vashta and Jenny salute back, close the Tardis doors and slump. ~Is he really, you know ... ?~ asks Vashta. Jenny says, ~Dead? My old Dad? Pull the other one ma'am!~ The two embrace. Tardis makes its noises and Jenny flings open the doors. It's Stormcage just after the Doc has kissed River for the first/last time. Vashta jumps out of the Tardis. She and River have a brief conversation out of earshot. River hands Vashta the tricorder. Vashta closes the doors of the Tardis. Jenny pulls some levers and the Tardis makes its sounds. Jenny opens the doors and she and Vashta stroll out into CAL's core in the library. Jenny plugs in the tricorder, gives Vashta a knowing smile. Then the two stroll back into the Tardis. It vanishes. Hold on empty room. Fade out. Fade in River embracing her friends inside CAL - the shot at the end of FOTD. Then River looks past her friends. Sitting on a deck chair, his pant legs rolled up, his feet in a kiddie pool, stirring a mint julep with a stick of celery and wearing a Fez, the Doctor shades his eyes from the sun and waves. River sprints toward him. We never see them kiss. OR B) River kills the Doc, gets nabbed by Silents and Kovarian who plugs her into the proto-Tardis like a light bulb. Cut to the Siren's ER. Every bed has an occupant with a sheet over their face. They all spasm at once. The Siren rushes from bed to bed exchanging energy with each of them. Dozens, maybe hundreds of them. Each occupant sits up at once, the sheets falling away from their naked torsoes to reveal ... GangerDocs. Eleven of them, one for each of the incarnations. Camera zeroes in on the David Tennant ganger. He looks shocked. There's a clamour of different Doctor's voices talking about jelly babies, reversing polarities. The Tennant ganger screams for silence and the rest shut up. ~I've got two words for you, boys. Just two words. I want you to listen very carefully...~ ~Allons Y!~

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:38 a.m. CST

    darthdevious- looking forward to reading it!!! ...

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...it generally takes me a couple of reads to digest all information on offer, so I shall read it twice and see if I can spot it!!! Cheers for the big-up!!!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:44 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts nah

    by HornOrSilk

    We were told, "Back to the Future." There is a reason. Doc Brown comes, sees the travesty done to time, and he goes and finds the Peter Cushing Doctor, and asks him to save the universe by dying in the Time Lord's place. This then means the Doctor truly is dead.. just the wrong Doctor...

  • ...things that we've already seen a while ago are not scheduled to happen yet (?)- for instance, last night with the Doc choosing the envelopes to send to Amy and Rory in their new house (episode 11) which we see in The Impossible Astronaut (episode 1), and the top hat and tails (episode 7) which we first saw in the last episode of series 5, which means the Doc already knew that he had to go and pick up Amy & Rory on their wedding night, in order for River Song to be born and all of the subsequent events to take place. I have no doubt that things go back even further than that. River knew she killed a good man, so that must have been River from the future showing up in the past. Things are all over the frigging place it's to be unbelieved. So the version at the beach might not have yet known that it was herself that killed the Doc. Maybe...... (?)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:59 a.m. CST

    I do think the Doctor's death

    by HornOrSilk

    Will allow us to find out what happened to Rory.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:01 a.m. CST

    Also, interesting... River in AGMGTW

    by HornOrSilk

    Seems to still agree with the Silence, in some way... the song talks about the Doctor having to renounce violence.

  • ...see what you pick up. An attempt on Churchills life as an explosion detonates next to him and one of his Roman servants. ** Are we to assume that Churchill is now a bad guy?** A cloaked shadowy figure walking away into the mist with the Doc following. The Doc and (as I am now convinced) Mark Gatiss's Norse-like alien sitting opposite each other in an amphitheatre with a neon sign saying LIVE CHESS. ** Can we assume that the stakes of these chess games are rather high???** Time is certainly be re-written.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:08 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig (spoilers)

    by HornOrSilk

    This year's finale The Wedding of River Song sees Gatiss star as Gantok (pictured here) and will play The Doctor in a tournament of "Live Chess" on Vegas 12. http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2011/09/mark-gatiss-in-wedding-of-river-song.html (Doctortom gave this link before). What exactly is "Live Chess"? Is it a game where if you win, you get to live? Is this something Rory also went through and won?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:09 a.m. CST

    sam jacksons wig but did you see in the slow-mo?

    by HornOrSilk

    The Dalek?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:10 a.m. CST

    sonic screwdriver green v blue

    by Erin Bourke

    Here's a simple theory. When the sonic screwdriver is blue it's being used as a flashlight.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:19 a.m. CST

    And yes, I sometimes type your whole name out Sam, and sometimes not

    by HornOrSilk

    It's the ganger-me... ;)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:24 a.m. CST

    If you didn't see it

    by HornOrSilk

    The Dalek http://tinyurl.com/3jshqkm

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:24 a.m. CST

    Putting the episodes in order

    by Peter Smith

    I agree with SJW that the order is going to be a nightmare, but the bowties (red / blue) will have something to do with working out the order. Let's not forget that there seemed to be a lack of emotion on Amy and Rory's part after the events of a Good Man Goes to War... Surely that's because those episodes are meant to be well BEFORE the episodes earlier in the season. Moffat is such a tight plotter there's no way that he'd let something that obvious slip by him. Also, any of the episodes shown with Madame Kovarian shoving her head through a door must belong to the run up to AGMGTW. That makes sense, leading up to the Ganger's episode. I think essentially what they've done is place the first half of the season (chronologically) in the second half of the season by air date. No wait, let me contradict myself. Amy and Rory find out about Mels being their best friend, are aware that they are her parents and don't seem amazed or confused by this. I'm now thinking that a few of these episodes will be placed in the time-line of the next series. Any of the ramblings above make sense? No? Thought not :)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:50 a.m. CST

    Mission to the Unknown news

    by HornOrSilk

    http://tinyurl.com/3luva8k

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:56 a.m. CST

    First draft

    by Kevin Bolinger

    of my story is done. came out to 33 handwritten pages. Next step, type it up, making changes as I do, tightening things up. Might have it done sooner then I thought, but we will see.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:21 a.m. CST

    Final lyrics from the prequel

    by veteran_of_mu

    Doctor, brave and good, He turned away from violence, When he understood, The falling of the silence. Well ... apart from this business of exploding cyber fleets, and maybe the stuff where he had humanity slaughter the Silents, I don't think the Doc is very violent in the first place. I know we had River berating him about it and there's the Goblin Trickster stuff and the big mistake in Waters of Mars but I still feel this is WTF time.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:22 a.m. CST

    I quite liked The Lodger, I didn't like this very much though

    by Stegman84

    Corden was more annoying this time around, though still tolerable. The Cybermen were not only under-used, but badly used. Didn't like the silly teeth on the Cybermat. The resolution to the Cybermen story was, frankly, absolute pants. And it was all just way too cutesy and saccharine, without enough wit and actual fun to back any of it up. To me this was the weakest story of the season, it just reeked on wasted potential to me. Still, Smith was great, as always, there were a couple of moments and scenes that were quite good, such as his monologue in the baby's room, and him talking to the street kids at the end, but I just wish we had more of that kind of thing, and a better balance to the story overall. The epilogue was pretty great though.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:28 a.m. CST

    lyrics

    by Evilmeister

    When I heard it I thought it said: 'the fooling of the silence' Would make more sense for it to be 'falling' though all things considered...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:59 a.m. CST

    Another average ep

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    Another very average ep, the back half of this season has been pretty bad to be honest, this season is no where near as good as last years. The non moffat ep's this year have been just a bit Meh to be honest. I really enjoyed "The Lodger" from last year but this one was nowhere near as funny or enjoyable and Cordon was annoying most of the time. The Cybermen were badly underused or threatening and the last 5 mins with the River stuff were more interesting than the previous 40 put together! At least next weeks looks pretty darn cool.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Is Petrichor a reference to something?

    by Rebel Scumb

    Beyond the fact that Amy was the model, is the name itself signifigant?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:03 a.m. CST

    oh never mind...

    by Rebel Scumb

    if I had read exactly ONE more post before asking my question, then I would have seen History101s explanation. That IS a great call back

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:03 a.m. CST

    stand alone eps next year

    by Candy ass monkey suit

    It's interesting hearing Moffat is getting away from the heavy arc plotting for the next run, apparently the focus will be more on standalone eps ( ala old who) rather than dense story arcs. Im actually happy about this, this kinda story plotting is ok once and a while but i prefer the older style standalone eps i think.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:07 a.m. CST

    caractusspots

    by Rebel Scumb

    Its not that it required lower expectations, just different ones in my opinion. But even having said that, to me the show is always ridiculous, and it doesn't matter to me if the sonic can do one thing one week, and not another. For me a big part of the charm of the series is how little sense it makes. But that's me,

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:16 a.m. CST

    But ARE the Cybermen that great a villian to begin with?

    by Rebel Scumb

    I'm just not sure I understand why people are so protective of them. I find to be honest they wear pretty thin quickly (in new and old who) so sort of prefer a quick one off like this one. As for making the Daleks TRULY evil by not making them talk, to me that would take away what makes them such iconic villians to begin with. They are villians who should not be threatening, since they both look and act in a ridiculous fashion, and yet they ARE terrifying. At least I think so. I just rewatched Bad Wolf/Parting of ways and they are truly a gruesome foe gunning down all sorts of innocent people. There are plenty of examples in new and old who of them being a legit threat.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:18 a.m. CST

    Agreed Candyass

    by Rebel Scumb

    To me the best comparison is with the tom baker stuff, how it was mostly standalone, but then that one year they had the Key to Time saga. Part of what makes that special is it was out of the ordinary. I like the big arc stuff a lot, but after this I'm ready for a more lowkey straight forward season next year.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:20 a.m. CST

    So are we thinking then that River remembers...

    by Rebel Scumb

    In The Impossible Astronaut, when river shows up for the picnic, and then the impossible astronaut shows up and the doctor goes to talk to he/she/it that if it is indeed River in the suit, that the cowgirl River at the picnic (who would be farther ahead in the timeline) would remember being in the suit and was just playing dumb? She also seemed genuniely not to know about the suit or little girl when they found it.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Ep13 Prequel

    by Noel

    SJW - thanks for the link. I am really looking forward to this. In case people missed them there were a series of links from the BBC official site early in the season which needed to be sought out but which opened some short videos. A couple were like CCTV of what looked like empty streets or rooms, but the images always had static and jumps as though something were wrong in the image. One, however, seemed to be a distress call from the Doctor piloting an unknown ship. Looking back the bridge would appear to be very similar, if not identical, to the bridge of the teselector. So - I'm currently working under the theory that the Doctor uses the teselector to fake his own death. Link - www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00gygrl Sorry if it doesn't work. I don't know if AICN alters URLs.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:24 a.m. CST

    Horn- yeah, I saw the Dalek.....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...although no audio except that infernal incidental music, its eye stalk was bobbing up and down, surely indicating that it was communicating to the Doc. It also looked in a really bad way!!! Oh, and whilst I am here, I was correct about Gatiss playing that bloody norse-looking thing!!!! Not bad, eh????? As for the chess, I am sure it is for a massive forfeit to whoever loses, hence the Doc asking questions regarding why he has to die. Can't wait for the answer.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:27 a.m. CST

    spoiler for ep 13......

    by sam jacksons wig

    ****Towards the end of this episode, we have one of the most exciting sequences we’ve ever done. While this battle is going on, there are scenes between the Doctor, River, Amy and Rory where the final jigsaw pieces are put in place. Um ... let’s put it this way: there’s a big revelation about River, and River gets a big revelation about the Doctor...**** Words from Alex Kingston. Should be good.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:33 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts -- the Doctor

    by HornOrSilk

    Though he prefers not to use violence, can be quite violent and brutal at times. We even had Davros show the Doctor what lies behind his claims of non-violence is using others to be his tools for violence - hands off, letting others do the dirty work for him. We have seen him attempt genocide (Remembrance of the Daleks) after overcoming the temptation (Genesis of the Daleks). The dark side is coming out slowly, and more and more violent means is accepted (and yes, destroying the Cyberfleet is one recent example).

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:36 a.m. CST

    Something I've thought as to why the Doctor has to die

    by HornOrSilk

    He is like anti-matter in the universe... Amy remade it originally without him, but he found a way to come on through..

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:39 a.m. CST

    My guess about River's revelation

    by HornOrSilk

    Is who her daughter is... or else, maybe she really is going backwards in time and she ends up becoming the Rani (joke, I'm not serious about that one). But I'm curious as to what more there is to her; I do think this ties with us being told new mythology is being made. There's something more here.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:40 a.m. CST

    sam yes, the Dalek

    by HornOrSilk

    Looked really bad off. My guess, it is somehow being used as a power source for the Silence. It is a prisoner but its natural time ability, like that of Time Lords, can be used to the benefit of those who trap it and know how to use the time around it.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:54 a.m. CST

    Closing Time minutiae

    by veteran_of_mu

    Cybermen can tiptoe. Seriously. When the shopgirl asks who's in there, you see a silhouette of a cyberman's legs moving. Silently. The first time the Doc sees the Cyberman he zaps it with a green beam. It disappears. Then Doc and Craig teleport. The Doc's sonic turns blue when he's using it as a flashlight. Well, it could be something to do with HAT #749 but to my mind it's more likely just stupid. So many things in this episode are! ~I don't even know what the questions is. I always knew I'd die still asking.~ - the Doc with whom we're familiar only heard about the question a little while ago. This one sounds like he's been carrying it around for a couple hundred years. ~A Disilium bonded door disguised as a wall.~ Missed opportunity to call it a dwall ... The doctor appears to be overpowered by two 500 year old cybermen in a state of disrepair. I'm sorry but is this really supposed to be the same Doctor who takes out entire cyberfleets to supply Rory Williams with punctuation? No Cybus C on the cybermen chests. ~Why are you telling me all this?~ - a veiled sleight at shop girl Rose? The Doc has lifted his sights a bit since those days, hasn't he? Live Chess is being watched by girls in bikinis?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:57 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts a couple things

    by HornOrSilk

    When the Doctor knows something, it is easier for him to act( as with the Cyberfleet) but when he is taken by surprise, thinking through his own death, you can understand why he isn't up to par. And I still say Cybus Cybermen. Just because they didn't have the logo doesn't mean it is not that group. They have qualities of the Cybus Cybermen....

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:11 a.m. CST

    caractacuspotts

    by Rebel Scumb

    Well with the cyber fleet he could sabotage and sneak attack to destroy them. In this episode he was caught unawares, and simplying blowing up the ship without all the answers could have been dangerous As to the doctor's comment about the question. I presume approximately 200 years have passed for the doctor since the season premiere, many of which could be after he learned the question, and most of them presumably taking place between The God Complex after he dropped off the PondWilliams, and before he met up with Craig in this episode. As to whether they are Cybus Cybermen or not, I'm not really sure, and it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. Either they're cybermen from the original series evolved up, or the Cybus ones just outgrew their origins so stripped off the logo, or the two met up and created a hybrid cyberman.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:17 a.m. CST

    Eyepatches

    by Rebel Scumb

    I can't remember who it was who suggested ages ago that the eye patches have an image of the Silents on the inside so that Korvarian and her people never forget them. As for time goes by I think this was a very astute theory, especially seeing the preview for next week and also the ep13 prequel with so many people wearing those eyepatches and strictly speaking it would be the most effecient way to deal with the Silents.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:20 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb - Silence falling on the Daleks

    by Perigee

    When I suggested shutting them up, I didn't mean completely - just knock off the chatty Cathy routine. At the time, I had just completed The Evolution of The Daleks two parter, and put up with a chatfest. Day-Lek Jast...? Yes, Day-Lek Caan? I Am Have-Ing Ques-Tions ah-bout Day-Lek Sec. So Am I... ... They couldn't have just looked at each other significantly, and had the results become plain in five minutes? Every Dalek has to get his say anymore. We have Dalek extras with lines. If Daleks were tanks, swiveling their turrets everytime they talk (like some kind of phallic version of Cars), 99 percent of the tanks wouldn't speak - they'd take orders, and do their jobs. They wouldn't even acknowledge the orders - Yes_I_Will_Great_Tank - because following orders is what they do. There's a Dalek in charge? Then he gets to speak. IF he needs to. Daleks are - to their own thinking - the ultimate sentient being in the universe. They don't talk to things that they may as well kill. They don't chat with future pig slaves, etc. Such beings are beneath their notice. That's my take, anyway.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:54 a.m. CST

    Cybermen

    by Type 40

    The cybermen costumes in the modern series are really well done. They give the impression of rigid metal (although I'm sure it's a lighter more wearable substance). The tip-toeing cyberman in the changing room was a bit iffy though. In every other episode, they CLANK CLANKED their way around!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:57 a.m. CST

    eyepatches

    by gotilk

    I assume they have playback of the last 30 seconds or so as an overlay, like a heads up display. How creepy would it be to deal with that every minute or so when those pesky silence fellows are hanging around? I'd imagine it could lead to some serious blood pressure issues after a while.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Cybermen.........

    by ballymoremonty

    Hi everyone, first time posting in the Docback, long time follower. I watch Who with my six year-old son, his enjoyment of the show makes it all the better for me. *********SPOILER********** It's the subject of the Cybermen been killed by 'love' and the backlash from it that made me dive into the docback with my first post. When Craig, said to the Doctor "I killed the Cybermen with love" the Doc replied something like "Not really that's grossly sentimental and too simplistic Craig, it was the deeply ingrained nature of human's to protect their own gene" So as the Doctor explained it wasn't 'love' but probably one of the most primal instincts of human beings which in turn somehow led to a malfunction of the remaining Cybermen.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    Right, ballymoremonty

    by HornOrSilk

    I thought it was rather clear. 1)Cybermen have had their emotions removed because they couldn't deal with the psychological damage of being Cybermen if they still had them. 2) These Cybermen were looking for a new controller. Craig was chosen. 3) They thought they had turned off his emotions, but it was not completely gone -- his bond with his child was still there; it would make sense this kind of residue might even remain or be hard to override, since it normally could be used to help encourage Cyberconversion (which is like making more childen). 4) So in the imperfect situation of the weakened Cybermen, Craig's bond with his child was enough to let him break free but 5) because of the controller's connection with the rest of the Cybermen, his freed emotion was transmitted throughout this group's systems; they felt all the love they had lost.... which led to 6) self-destruction

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:19 a.m. CST

    perigee

    by Rebel Scumb

    I can respect your stance on that, although oddly enough the dialogue you mentioned is perhaps my all time favorite Dalek exchange, especially because the one looks around to make sure that no one is listening before replying. Again just a matter more of my own personal tastes than anything, the chatty Daleks are one of the things I enjoy most about Dr. Who so I wouldn't want to see it gone. But I can understand what you're getting at regardless of my own feelings on the matter.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:21 a.m. CST

    hes_the_man re: tiptoeing cyberman

    by Rebel Scumb

    I would agree with that, I thought it a bit odd as well. It reminded me of in Jurassic Park how the T-rex when it first appears has huge echoing footstep sounds that cause the water to ripple and can be heard from far off. Yet somehow at the end of the movie the Trex manages to 'sneak up on' the humans and raptors when aside from being noisey its also huge so that seems somewhat hard to swallow. I do agree that the new-who Cybermen are really well designed though. I think they were smart to keep the daleks the same design as the old show, but the cybermen certainly benefited from a new-series upgrade as they always looked a bit dodgy on the old show.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:25 a.m. CST

    ballymoremonty

    by Rebel Scumb

    Agreed, I think if anything the only issue with it would have been why this had never worked for anyone before since presumably someone has been cyberconverted and thought about their loved ones as they were (especially if the loved ones were also being converted at the same time) But they managed to get around that as well, because when the doctor tells Craig to think of his wife and son it DOESN'T work. It's only hearing the baby crying, that primal parenting instinct (as even mentioned at the top of the episode by Craig) that is what overpowers the Cybermen process. Still cheesy sure, but I felt it was handled well enough and fit the tone of the episode so it worked out okay. And welcome to the docbacks!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:26 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by Rebel Scumb

    You pointed out something I forgot, that they had made him the cybercontroller, which adds in the extra variable of why Craigs emotions would have such a catastrophic effect and why he could overpower them. Where as if this was 'age of steel' for example and he was just being made into yet another cyberman drone amongst thousands with a strong cyber controller already in place, I doubt the baby crying emotions would have been enough

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:27 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb something else

    by HornOrSilk

    Remember, this is not a full power operation; so it is not able to drain everything as fast as normal.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    rebel scumb right --

    by HornOrSilk

    It's making him the controller which added to their downfall here.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    @ caractacuspotts

    by Dither Sol Ox

    You're not reading it properly: it's a continuing verse. It's not saying the Doc was never violent, it's saying he turned from violence AFTER he understood the falling of the silence. "Doctor, brave and good, He turned away from violence, WHEN he understood, The falling of the silence."

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:33 a.m. CST

    Off topic, but re: opening titles

    by Rebel Scumb

    I was just watching Marvel's THOR movie yesterday on blu-ray, and this space sequence which they used for the blu-ray menu and also the end credits is the sort of thing I'd like to see the next time they redo the dr WHo opening titles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HBZ_mywt_U Seeing it on youtube doesn't give quite the same impression as on a 50" tv in HD, but you get the general idea of just something that really shows the vast bizarre landscape of space and time. Just imagine that hammer is the TARDIS and play the who theme while you watch and it works pretty well.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:37 a.m. CST

    I can see that, rebel

    by HornOrSilk

    It even has a Tom Baker like feel at points

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:43 a.m. CST

    hornorsilk

    by ballymoremonty

    Good exposition Hornorsilk. I really think last nights episode was far from weak, matter of fact I thought it had a really tight narrative. Probably could have done without the River scene at the end and just ended with the Doctor tipping his hat at those kids and stepping into the Tardis with a smile. Matt Smith was brilliant last night, very weary and downtrodden but still couldn't resist an investigation.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 10:08 a.m. CST

    Inspector Spacetime is on TV Tropes now

    by gotilk

    they took this to the next level... http://tinyurl.com/6h8f4vm In case anyone is unfamiliar with it, Inspector Spacetime is a send-up of Doctor Who on the show Community. And I can only assume, considering fan reactions, that this is not the last that we'll see of the Inspector and his DARSIT. The best bit, in my opinion, is this: *The Associates bring something new to the cast with each new addition with old favorites like the math and english teachers Irma and Bart, the old Gaelic Aiden, and the long-runner Mary-Sue. More recent companions include Lily Taylor, Captain James Haggard, Constable Wigglesworth, Angelica *Angie* Lake, and Rory Williams.* LOL!!! Rory. *Canon Immigrant: Inverted here. After his stint as Rory Williams on Inspector Spacetime, Arthur Darvill came back to play the same character in another show. Funny thing is, that other show has yet to explain Rory's immortality. But we already know the reason since we watched him here in Inspector Spacetime!* Immortality!! ROFL! Check out the link... worth it. ERADICATE!!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Rebel RE. opening titles

    by Type 40

    That Thor bluray menu definitely has a doc-like time vortex feel to it. Also, a nice way of getting the vastness of space across in a few seconds, which is what you'd need in a doctor who title sequence. What does everyone think of the current titles now that they're nearly(!) 2 series old? I didn't like them at first, but they've grown on me a lot! Plus all the re-watches this series has meant more familiarity for me!!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 11:08 a.m. CST

    titles

    by Rebel Scumb

    The new ones have grown on me, and are not without their charm. I do really like the lightning, and the actual font of the title is great in my opinion and I prefer it to the big spinning gold oval thing from the RTD years. But in terms of the pure visual flare, and the great haunting and epic music, I don't think the 2005-2007 version of the titles has ever been topped. It's ominous and exciting and mysterious. The current theme does have a certain 'here we go again, another wacky adventure' tone to it that is good, but the space cloud tunnel just feels a bit underwelming to me. Not so much on its own, but when compared with almost any other version of the titles with their psychadelic colours and kaledoscopic visuals or just the great colourful space/time feel of the RTD titles. I also really love the incredible sense of velocity that the RTD titles have, it really gives you the sense of moving through the time vortex at an absolutely breakneck speed where you are just barely keeping up with the Tardis. I think the Thor space visuals I noted above also take very good advantage of current HD technology and provide us with a version of space we haven't really seen before with so much tiny visuals

  • instead of the Thor music. Works like a charm! If I wasn't so busy I might even waste away the afternoon in Finalcut pro superimposing the Tardis over the Hammer just for fun. But if anyone else wants to, go ahead!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 11:16 a.m. CST

    ballymoremonty -- yes I liked it

    by HornOrSilk

    And I liked it better than God Complex and Night Terrors, actually. Of course, Doctor Who IS a variety show, and if you don't like one style, we will get another soon. I like that about Doctor Who and wouldn't change it for the world. I think there is more series-Arc material in what we saw, and so River's scene might work even better once we see the end. Even if not, it helps set the stage and answer _some_ questions beforehand so those questions won't have to be dealt with at length in the actual story.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 12:02 p.m. CST

    horn

    by Rebel Scumb

    you put that perfectly about the variety. it's one of the reasons why if someone doesn't like a particular doctor, or particular companion, or head writer, or tardis set, or theme song, I don't think they should get bent out of shape too much. I don't really think there is anything they could do to Dr. Who that would detract from the 26+6 seasons & 5 specials that have come before, and no matter how bad it was, it would be temporary anyways as is all things in Who. My cousin just started the franchise at the Eccelston stuff, I advised him even if he ends up not liking it, to just try jumping ahead to season 5 since it's wildly different. He might love all the seasons, or only the RTD stuff or only the Moffat stuff or neither, everyone is different, but the show changes so much every few years that I don't see any point in dismissing it entirely based on any one particular section.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:11 p.m. CST

    A bit disappointed, but for totally new reasons!

    by spacehog

    I just found the Doctor's whole attitude a bit disappointing; I really thought he'd be going to his death with a sense of purpose or a plan or, well, something. But if I understand the timeline correctly, he's been wandering spacetime for ~200 years since dropping off Amy and Rory, and has come no closer to understanding anything about his death. That is a LOT of time for the Doctor to be so clueless, and I don't like it. He's clearly been alone for a very long time, as he can barely remember how to have a normal conversation with Craig at first. Surely in the next episode we'll see him learn something beforehand, since at this point I don't see how he'd have the presence of mind to invite Canton Delaware of all people to witness his death. I just don't see why Delaware would be there unless the Doctor had some kind of plan, or some understanding of the event that we haven't seen yet.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Also, a new thought re: The Question

    by spacehog

    That little prequel made me rethink my stance on The Question: I've been thinking of it almost as a spell that would end the universe, that the question itself would do the damage (e.g., it's a GANGERVERSE and someone asks ''Why does absolutely everything smell vaguely of rubber?''). But maybe it merely marks a point in time beyond which the universe is doomed; maybe it's the intent behind the question that does the damage. The children's song in that prequel says the Doctor renounces violence once he understands what ''Silence will fall'' actually means. Maybe the Silence have been goading him toward violence and his own dark side all along; maybe the universe would be doomed if the Doctor asked something like "Why SHOULDN'T I kill you?" It's a downward slope that starts in AGMGTW and might bring him so low and so very NOT ''here to help'' that, at some point we haven't seen yet, Kovarian and crew actually have good reason to want him dead.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Petrichor

    by scriptgirl_nipples

    It was the telepathic password Amy used to get into the old TARDIS control room in the Doctor's Wife.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:31 p.m. CST

    I just had a gut sinking thought about the question...

    by Sundaycall1

    I swear, I'm ready for it to actually be something quite off hand or unexpected or indeed something about the doctors name but I SWEAR if it turns out to be the doctor asking Will you marry me? River saying nowt and we get a big bloody eastenders moment I'll be quite miffed. I've loved this series despite it's weaknesses but that would burn me. And the fact that the finales title is what it is, with previews showing no signs of a bloody wedding... I fear.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    spacehog

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think he has been wandering around 200 years like that. Either he lied about that, or, we will find out he was trapped for 200 years in a time loop, or he was up to something, preparing 200 years for his own answer to the trap (think Curse of the Fatal Death with 200 years of prep work by the Doctor). It's not all so clear, imo.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:37 p.m. CST

    rebel scumb yep that's what is great about Who

    by HornOrSilk

    Well, one of the things. But it helps keep the show going strong. Without variety, the show would have died.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Wedding has many meanings - two thoughts

    by HornOrSilk

    1) What if what we saw in Closing Time connects with the Doctor and River Song: what if their marriage is only a sham wedding on paper? 2) Wedding can, of course, go with alchemy. Look up Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Also regarding a wedding and river as a companion...

    by Sundaycall1

    I would like to see that all unfold, properly. See all the things they've done together from her perspective, have Alex Kingston just play river as we see her in the earlier eps, not a walking question but a real character. See them bond properly without buffer companions, even if that was the Xmas special I'd be pleased. (I'm calling it right now that bill baley is jim the fish) But sadly, and I did really enjoy let's kill hitler, I'm afraid like in that episode things will be rushed, crammed, undercooked or WORSE happen off screen. Sigh. This is wot happens when u luv a show. Ur geektastic imagination sets expectations too high. Long live who.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:13 p.m. CST

    still getting caught up from last night - thoughts on LIVE CHESS

    by DoctorTom

    I think it's what it says on the tin - Live Chess, in that you're using people as the chess pieces. I'd have to go back and look at the earlier picture of Gatiss, but wasn't it the Queen that was the glowing piece (possibly symbolizing River)?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:13 p.m. CST

    GETTING SERIOUSLY PISS OFF!!

    by SISKOKID

    ANOTHER poor episode!?! I find my entheusiasm waning badly. Since 'Lets Kill Hitler' things have been going from bad to worse. I now seem to forget that WHO is still on Saturday nights, when once it was that unmissable programme. All I seem to hear from people is 'I just can't get into it' regarding current episodes. I would have LOVED if last night had started with the TARDIS materialising on a Cyber ship, and ran from there. It was all too 'lets throw everything in'-babies, cybermen, love, friendship, dieing blah, blah. And of course the MAIN stars of the season *sigh* 'The Ponds' make an appearance-now Amy is a celeb WTF?-So sick of her poor acting & Rory's doe eyes. Most episodes look like they have the budget of an episode of a soap opera. How many times has a story been set in what looks like an empty/haunted house or building of some kind? (the Doc of course promising a trip to 'the seven crying mountains of Cragg 5 blah, blah). I would prefer cheap looking sets if we just has self-contained, interesting sci-fi stories a la Baker era. Less 'scary house, Willy Wonka' type Doc. Sorry if this seems like a rant but I wish someone would give the Moff a kick and get him to give us the WHO we (or some of us) want to see.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:14 p.m. CST

    err..of course PISSED off!!!!

    by SISKOKID

  • First with old eyepatch lady we've long been familiar with having one, and now seeing multiple soldiers wearing one in that little prequel episode. The eye patches have a photo of the Silence on their inside so that the particular person is ALWAYS having them within their site, so they'll never forget them.

  • Much like the "reveal" of River being the baby wasn't even remotely surprising because it was so strongly telegraphed for awhile beforehand, the most obvious answer for the astronaut always seemed to be River as well, so I'm a little bummed to see it's indeed her. Unless Moff winds up pulling a monumental sized rug out from under us next week, that none of this has been like it's seemed all along...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:38 p.m. CST

    A question for those who are posting their dissapoitment

    by batmancw

    I'm not gonna ask what it is you want, because most of you have said so in your posts. I would like to ask--Have y'all watched some of the utter crap that draws HUGE ratings in the US? Other than a few shows--Fringe, The Office, Parks & Rec(3 of MY faves)--none of which do as well in the ratings as the crap I'm referencing--I find most of our prime-time TV to be worthless because it's aimed at the "lowest common denominator" in order to garner those huge ratings. Now, I'm NOT suggesting that we should lower the bar for Dr Who to match---BUT, CMON NOW--IMO the WORST Dr Who episode is far more entertaining, engaging and potentially thought provoking than the vast majority of primetime TV I guess it has a LOT to do with your expectations. For me, WHO remains solidly among my favorites & while I dont LOVE every episode, I certainly ENJOY them all. So I guess my question turned into more of a monologue, but nonetheless, for ME, Doctor Who is a drama, a comedy, and an adventure series set in ALL of Time & Space featuring a wonderful, brilliant Madman with his Blue Box & i'll take it over 99% of TV programming ANY DAY Cheers

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:41 p.m. CST

    Sorry but am I missing something?

    by theGoldbergV

  • Unknown time period - A Good Man Goes to War - Melody is born. <br> 1969 - Melody raised as a child. (Day of the Moon) <br> July 1969 - Melody escapes from astronaut suit <br> January 1970 - Melody appears in New York City. Activities between 1969 and 1970 unknown, but she is dying. Regenerates (presumably into Mels) <br> 1990s - Young Mels in Leadworth. Not known if time travel involved or if she aged herself backwards to be young Amelia's age. Was in Leadworth until summer 2011 (after April 2011 based on the crops that got mowed down for the crop circle). Joined the Doctor, shot the TARDIS, emergency landing in 1938. Hitler kills her, she regenerates into River's form. Victim of Silents programming to be a weapon, kills the Doctor. Spends (we are told the rest of) her regenerations to bring the Doctor back (but, the part about all the regenerations could be a lie). Side note: makes comment about memories of her life before being hazy, so does not remember events as child in 1969. Is dropped off for care as the hospital staffed by The Sisters of the Infinite Schism. Gets her blue journal from the Doctor (interesting question here: the Doctor's death date that is written in the journal - is it River's handwriting, or the Doctor's?) (Let's Kill Hitler) <br> Luna University 5123 - applies to the University to study Archaeology. (LKH) <br> Date unknown (but after 5123) River gets her degree. Gets visited by Madame Kovarian and the Silents, gets stuck in a spacesuit. For Kovarian, these events are after A Good Man Goes To War. Does not react to Silents despite chronoligically this being after DotM, so she would have had a chance to see the Moon Landing tape - evidence of Silents brainwashing to keep that particular tape from affecting her? <br> Unknown date but will probably be revealed next week: River jailed for killing the best man she ever knew (signs and portents say it's the Doctor, but this could change). <br> Unknown date (presumably after all the events above) River visits the Doctor in the aftermath of the Battle of Demon's Run. Gets Amy, Rory, Madame Vashta and Jenny to their homes. (AGMGTW). <br> Unknown date: Rory comes to Stormcage to visit River to enlist her help in the Battle of Demon's Run. (Appearances are that the River seen here is after the River seen at the end of the Battle of Demon's Run, since she knows what happens at Demon's Run. This combined with the last is a tricky little bit that we might not see clarified later.) <br> Unknown date, but after Battle of Demon's Run: escapes Stormcage to go to the planet America, visits Lake Silencio 2011. Apparently has no knowledge of being in the astronaut suit. Sees the Doctor killed. Goes to 2011. Experiences events as adult in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon. <br> Date given 5147(?) (not sure, I'd need to check if that is correct date). Swindles a Vortex Manipulator from Dorium (not for the first time? Where did she get items for time travel back in TIA/DotM? Did she time travel to get to Demon's Run?). Goes back to early days of the universe and carves a big HELLO SWEETIE, which becomes known as the oldest writing in the universe. Goes to 102 AD. Has adventures which take place in The Pandorica Opens. Gets stuck in exploding TARDIS. Doctor gets her out of TARDIS in the collapsing universe, she kills a Dalek who begs her for mercy when it finds out her name. Watches the Doctor take off in the Pandorica to start Big Bang 2. (TPO/Big Bang) <br> Unknown (presumably after TPO) - Visits her mom's wedding to leave her Journal to rekindle her memories. <br> 52nd century (unknown year) Time of the Angels/Flesh and Stone <br> 51st century - is now a professor, in the century before she gets her degree. Joins expedition to The Library. Is killed, presumably for the final time. (Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:46 p.m. CST

    oops, wrong TB

    by theGoldbergV

    Oh well while I'm here... this episode really wasn't that bad. The reaction can only be because all the others this season (exception of Pirates and LKH) have been so very good. It was a fun throwaway one thats all. Not sure about how the timelines work now but I'm sure that'll be explained next week. Oh and good call on the eye patch thing theseeker7, that would make a whole lot of sense.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:46 p.m. CST

    Rule #1 River Song Lies

    by HornOrSilk

    I don't think she was ever a professor... and that might mean her time in the library is not when we think...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Sam, Amy and Rory's house

    by DoctorTom

    I don't think the house that the Doctor gives them in The God Complex is the same house that they were living in at the start of The Impossible Astronaut. Also remember that River dropped them off somewhere after A Good Man Goes To War, so they were living somewhere while the Doctor was looking for baby Melody. I don't think they were living in that house either. From what we saw of Leadworth, I didn't think that there would be a row of flats like that in Leadworth, and I had the impression (probably unfounded) that they were still in Leadworth after the wedding. That might have been Rory's place that we saw them in in TIA. <br> I also think the end of The God Complex, and Closing Time actually take place after 4/11/11. The Doctor talked about tomorrow having to go to his death, but if it were actually 4/10/11 Amy would most likely have been on her way to Lake Silencio, even if it would break time, to try to save the Doctor.

  • It was dealing with the Doctor's resignation to his fate and that for him, he was going to his death on the next day. It also tied up some loose ends by getting him the Stetson and the envelopes and paper he uses for sending the messages seen in The Impossible Astronaut. <br> <br> It's just a matter of a week for us to see if he made any other stops. With the resignation he was showing last night it didn't feel like he was going to have any particular plan, though based on earlier comments I suspect something will happen. (Gangers? Teselecta? If it were the Teselecta, then you could say that it was the Doctor there - he was just inside the ship as a little part of it. And, to be honest, the Antibodies would be good for keeping the Silents out of the ship - they still register on recordings, so would presumably be able to be spotted by the Antibodies.) <br> Yes, the ending did feel a little tacked on, but still plays into the events going into the last day - we see River's and Kovarian's last day before (presumably) killing the Doctor as well as the Doctor's last day before going off to die.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 3:56 p.m. CST

    The bit about River being in the astronaut suit

    by DoctorTom

    people seem to forget that most of the season a lot of people were expecting it to be young Melody from 1969 in the suit, not River after Melody had regenerated a couple of times. I don't think people predicted a post-Mels River being the one in there except as a ploy for the Doctor to get out of his death. I don't think anyone predicted Kovarian popping back and forcibly sticking her in the suit (possibly trying to reactivate the brainwashing).

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4 p.m. CST

    doctortom--FINE JOB SIR!!

    by batmancw

    I think you've sorted River's timeline correctly--or as correctly as is possible given what WE know. One addendum--isn't it fair to assume that Madame K is working WITH the Silents towards their mutual goal of killing the Doctor? As, she is wearing an eyepatch, we know? it means she can remember them/isn't being controlled by them & their whole involvement with the kidnapping of Amy & baby Melody seems to suggest an alliance--at least to me. And--she(Kovarian) told River that they(the Silents) were "her owners"(River's) when they came for her at the end Tick Tock Goes the clock Till Saturday we wait Tick Tock goes the clock The finale will be GREAT

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:03 p.m. CST

    I seem to be having the opposite reaction

    by funkylovemonkey

    I've enjoyed this season, with a few exceptions, more then I've enjoyed Doctor Who in a while. Especially compared to the 4th Series and the Specials (with the exception of Waters of Mars, which had a great ending but overall was pretty weak monster of the week). And I was a huge Tenant fan. I'm definitely not feeling nostalgic for RTD's finales, in fact I'm more disappointed that Moffat seems to be replicating them with their kitchen sink manic approach. Honestly, I can't think of a single series finale in the last five series which would even make my top ten of new Who. They all hinge on huge cheats or ticks and mostly consist of the Doctor running around screaming to bombastic music as whatever big bag (usually some combination of Daleks and Cybermen) once again fails to actually destroy/conquer the universe/earth.

  • So far we haven't seen Cybus Cybermen with spaceships. Only Mondas/Telos style Cybermen. Cybus Cybermen wouldn't have had spaceships hundreds of years ago. Mondas/Telos ones did. And, if it's time travelling Cybus Cybermen, then we should point out the only time travelling the Cybus ones did was when the Daleks cracked open the void and let some of them spill out into our universe.* These didn't have spaceships. Or Cybermats. <br> <br> *Side note 1 on cracking open the universe to let Cybermen spill out - as recounted in The Next Doctor - wouldn't there have been some other Daleks that would have spilled out, Daleks from the Time War that weren't the genetically ragged bunch seen in Victory of the Daleks? <br> <br> Side note 2 on cracking open the universe - was this the original point for getting cracks in the universe that let something infiltrate the TARDIS? I'm suspecting that whatever was saying Silence Will Fall was in the TARDIS throughout all of Season 5.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:06 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    Easy. They are from the future of the Cybus Cybermen.... when they did develop such technology.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:08 p.m. CST

    ballymoremonty - welcome to the Docbacks!

    by DoctorTom

    good point on it not being quite as simplistic as love killing them, that there's probably more primal emotions too. <br> I will say that we shouldn't see their heads exploding, but the feedback overriding their emotion inhibition circuits should disable them (since if those circuits are overridden, they're probably feeling *everything*, not just the love coming through - they're also feeling the emotions about having been converted into a monster that the chips were inhibiting in the first place)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:10 p.m. CST

    Perigee, rebel - that scene does raise one question though

    by DoctorTom

    Why wouldn't Daleks have tightbeam communications so that they can send a message to one Dalek without having to vocalize everything so that anyone standing around can hear it?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:13 p.m. CST

    batmancw

    by HornOrSilk

    There are many reasons why they could have gone back in time; but we know, for example, the Cybermen in the Next Doctor had gone back in time. So there is limited time ability with them.

  • 1) We don't know how much time passed for the Doctor between when he left at the end of A Good Man Goes To War and when he showed up in Let's Kill Hitler. He could easily have chewed up most of 200 years in that time period. <br> 2) We don't know if the Doctor was lying about his age - either about being 1103 or earlier when he said he was 909. Don't forget that he had topped 950 in the classic series, so there was some rollback involved. We might find out that the Doctor had been lying about his age the entire new series in order to convince himself that he was younger than he was, and now as he's going to his final death he's finally decided to tell the truth about his age.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:20 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by Rebel Scumb

    Thats a valid point, but something pretty much every scifi show with robots is guilty of. The only answer I really have is.. the show would be less fun? Sort of like the sound in space, and having music in a show rationale.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:22 p.m. CST

    M. K told River that the Silent were "her owners"

    by batmancw

    So, as some have observed, she is clearly aware of them & working with them

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Live Chess eh?*spoiler spec*

    by notspock2

    a whole host of the doctor's friends wearing black?? is it possible we are looking at a cosmic chess game? with the Doctor playing black and his friends the pieces? how many times did rory nearly die? are we looking at best out of three scenario? have I finally flipped?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:27 p.m. CST

    batmancw - Kovarian

    by DoctorTom

    (yes, I'm almost completely caught up now - I can actually respond to people who responded to my recent posts) <br> First, thank you for the accolade. <br> Second, I don't want to assume that Kovarian is working WITH the Silents, it's far more likely that one is working FOR the other. If I had to bet right now, I'd bet that the Silents are working for Kovarian. And it might be that they're all working for Gantok (the norse guy with the eyepatch - the one with the Fenric vibe). In the trailer for next week it looked like the Doctor was asking him why he had to die, so it might be Gantok is the ringleader of what's been going on the last 2 seconds. <br> By the way, has anybody tried listening to Mark Gatiss' voice, pumping it through some distortion or a ring modulator and seeing if he was the one to make the Silence Will Fall statement in The Pandorica Opens? (For that matter, has anybody tried it with Frances Barber's voice?)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:33 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk - I'm not buying that one (for a dollar)

    by DoctorTom

    They hadn't shown time travel for cybermen in the parallel universe, and only a rudimentary time travel in the Mondas/Telos universe. Mainly, you get time travel if you steal someone else's timeship, or if you get Adric mucking about with the circuitry in your spaceship. They hadn't shown parallel universe timeships over there, and I'm going to assume they're fresh out of Adrics as well. <br> Besides, it seems like you have to introduce too many elements it to work, like parallel universe Cybermen ending up over here and getting time travel as well as spaceships, in order to explain them being Cybus Cybermen, when all you have to say is that the ship was a Cybermen scout ship that crashed if you go with Mondas/Telos cybermen. <br> If you apply Occam's Razor, then you'd come up with Mondas/Telos Cybermen. For not confusing the audience, you also come up with Mondas/Telos Cybermen, but just don't mention their origin (which, you notice, they didn't).

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:34 p.m. CST

    yeah, rebel, that's true

    by DoctorTom

    Sometimes it just gets annoying that for a show being made in the 21st century, most aliens haven't figured out how to make Bluetooth.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:35 p.m. CST

    The Cybus/Mondas Cybermen, I put down to convergent evolution.

    by davidwebb

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:36 p.m. CST

    notspock2 cosmic chess game

    by DoctorTom

    That's what I'm suspecting will happen. <br> What will even be more interesting if we find out the chess game that the Doctor's joining had been going on all along, and the chess game was responsible for what's been happening the last couple of seasons. <br> That would be a very Sylvester McCoy thing to have happen.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:40 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk, davidwebb

    by DoctorTom

    horn, the Cybermen didn't have time travel in The Next Doctor. They got thrown into the 19th century when the Daleks did their stuff at the Medusa Cascade. There's a difference. <br> davidwebb - convergent evolution is a good theory. Another possibility is that our universe's Cybermen found some of the other Cybermen, or at least pieces, and decided that the efficiency of the Cybus design was a suitable upgrade. They presumably got rid of the gold vunlerability doing it since they don't have those big chest units sucking in atmosphere now. (And the less said about gold coins and gold arrows affecting them as if the gold were wooden stakes and the Cybermen were vampires, the better.) <br> <br> Or, we're to assume the Cybermen has always (or at least a lot of the time) looked this way.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:44 p.m. CST

    @doctortom

    by batmancw

    Good point re: the Silence likely working for MK, as she seems to be connected to the Church/religious order formed to kill the Doctor. As for the Gantok character being the "Silence will Fall" & ? person controlling the Tardis on those occasions--granted they dont HAVE to be the same entity------ I may be wrong, but I'm thinking those answers may be rolled over into the next season & perhaps the reveal of the Big Bad we've all speculated about will play out until the 50th anniversary. Maybe not, as the fact that the Doctor's death being when Silence will fall may necessitate answering that, but I gotta think Moff will leave us hanging with SOME things unanswered if for NO other reason than the delay of next season until Fall Anyway, y'all all be well until next week. I'll look forward to reading the Docback next Sunday evening after I've had a chance to see the Finale Alonns-y

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:48 p.m. CST

    hornorsilk, doctortom re: timing of farewell tour

    by spacehog

    True, we don't know how long he was gone after AGMGTW, and we don't know if he was even telling the truth about his age in the first place...I just got the sense from Matt Smith's performance that we were looking at a much older Doctor. Watch again when he first shows up at Craig's house—there's such sadness and exhaustion in his eyes. Maybe it wasn't 200 years but I'd say there's been a significant gap between dropping off the Williams...es... and the visit to Craig. I guess it doesn't really matter; my complaint is generally just that he seems so powerless and resigned, and that's a perfectly valid direction for the character at this point, but I'd personally hoped for something a little more proactive from him at this point. (Warning: possibly apropos of nothing) I still wonder about that instruction the Silent gave Amy during her first conversation with one: ''You must tell the Doctor what he must know and what he must never know'' (probably paraphrasing there). I wonder if we've seen both parts of that post-hypnotic suggestion fulfilled or not. Probably he should never know about his own death—but Amy never (deliberately) told him about it. So what are the two things The Silence wanted Amy to tell the Doctor?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Overall I rather liked the episode though!

    by spacehog

    I keep forgetting to mention that...yes, it was cheesy and made the Cybermen seem ridiculous, but there were enough moments of real pathos in there that I can't dismiss the episode outright. The Doctor struggling to have a conversation when he first sees Craig...his farewell to the children...and of course, seeing Amy and Rory and shrinking away. All some pretty great moments (and all, not coincidentally, some great moments of acting from Matt Smith).

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:55 p.m. CST

    batmancw - from the trailer

    by DoctorTom

    we have the Doctor saying that when there had been the talk about silence falling he hadn't realized that they had been talking about *his* silence. So the Silence Will Fall thing might possibly mean only that the Doctor will die (then whoever caused it can get along with the next phase of their plan - they always have some kind of plan, and I'm sure that the end goal of their plan isn't just to have the Doctor shut up.) <br> Of course, we've heard people say in the show that the best way to counter the Doctor is to not let him talk. Especially this one, he seems to think out his plans while he's talking.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:57 p.m. CST

    How do you tell time...

    by The_Mad_Groper

    when the person you are watching can hop around it like a jack rabbit? You can't tell when anything is by watching the people around him... Point: How much time has passed since the Doc saw Amy and Rory? Who knows! Only by his reaction and it could have been a a day, a month or a few years for him... but for Amy it could be ages! But then again... if that is Ganger Doc... then it very well could have been years if the last time he saw them was when he was left behind. (Granted I'm typing this without even watching the full episode yet! Had to stop and make dinner for the kids!)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 4:58 p.m. CST

    well, spacehog, the bit with the gangers might count

    by DoctorTom

    She *did* tell the Doctor, and found out that it was the real Doctor by the end of the story, so that might keep her from having to tell him again later. Presumably they want to make sure the Doctor meets his date with death at Lake Silencio.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:14 p.m. CST

    Either ya love him or hate him

    by bongo dummy

    Those who love The Doctor, just go with the flow that is an eccentric goofball who is right more often than not. Those who hate him wish to destroy him. Isn’t that the premise of the Matt Smith Doctor? The crack was presumably intended to destroy the universe but the alliance made it out to be that the crack existed because of the Doctor and in order to stop the destruction of the universe, he needed to be put out of commission, taken out of the picture. So, the Silence didn’t try to kill the Doctor until after the Big Bang, right? Somehow, they survived the reboot and went to Plan B, which directly targets the Doctor and spares the Universe. Even though killing the Doctor would wreak more havoc on the Universe with no Doctor existing. So, the Silence believes it is capable of calling the shots and its only competition or adversary that would be worthy is the Doctor. ---- Now, from reading this stuff a lot of you guys wrote, I can understand not liking how he defeated the Cybermen. That’s fine. But, keep in mind this was probably a big part of the Doc’s low point. He believed he was doing more harm than good. The same is true of Craig. But, he was able to get Craig to believe in himself, to bond with his kid and have his kid bond with him and guess what? The Doctor wasn’t ineffectual. In fact, he changed from being a sad sack at the beginning to having a more normal level of confidence by the end. That was witnessed by the way he dealt with the kids and their awe of him. Keep in mind that River said he couldn’t deal well with Love but could deal well with other forms of war. Love and reasons to be brave are what the Doctor admires in humans most. So, to defeat the Cybermen, rin-tin, age old versions that wanted a person with low self esteem to lead them? Yeah. Why not. Love could beat Cybermen that silly and unadvanced. The character probably does have a plan. I can’t see that they left the Tessawhatchamcallit in Nazi Germany. After all, the info on it was downloaded by the Doctor. So, maybe it is on board the TARDIS, in some form. ---- Speaking of the TARDIS...someone above wrote that “The Doctor’s Wife” was a standalone. Yeah, but it is a part of the arc, too, isn’t it? Young Amelia Pond never set foot in the TARDIS and yet she is an avatar. When it said “Fish fingers and custard” that was likely the TARDIS saying it, not Amelia or some ghost in the machine.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:19 p.m. CST

    Good acting and comedy episode

    by sunspot_mike

    The Cybermen stuff was pretty subdued, but it waLyonly 6 Cybermen against the Doctor isn't much of a threat. We've already been shown that cybertechnology can't handle emotions. It was the transformation of Craig into a reliable father. It was a nice funny episode and the calm before the storm. We knew River was the astronaut, the suit was made for her. That was a cool scene when they stuck her underwater. We've known that time can be rewritten since Flesh and Stone, I think that it's gonna be a "love conquers all" ending like last year was a "if something can be remembered it can be brought back." Last year's ending was telegraphed in the episodes beforehand, I think this year is telegraphed as well- love can rewrite time, but I still have no idea how they're going to resolve it. My only question

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:25 p.m. CST

    We have to remember, Cybermen can go on

    by HornOrSilk

    And develop technology, steal it. If Torchwood can steal tech, they certainly can, too. And we know what Torchwood humans from the other world could do... so don't discount time travel.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:31 p.m. CST

    Argh - how about an edit button in 2011?

    by sunspot_mike

    My only question is where are we going to be in Amy, Rory, and River's timeline next week? The Amy and Rory at the end of God Complex are at least a year older than the ones we saw in TIA, right? When do we find them next? They can't travel back to April 2011 without the TARDIS (unless River is piloting.)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 5:33 p.m. CST

    sunspot_mike spoilers

    by HornOrSilk

    From what I hear, at least sometime in it, the River we get will be one from after the Angels. When she has got her pardon.

  • It's part of their posthypnotic conditioning.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:18 p.m. CST

    I'm not discounting time travel, hornorsilk,

    by DoctorTom

    I'm discounting needless complexities that don't need to be there. (As opposed to the whole River Song story, where the complexities *do* need to be there.) You don't need to invent universe-hopping, time travelling spaceships that still can't do anything when they crash (and I'd think they'd be powering up the time machine to get home, not the teleporter if they were time travelling) when you have a far simpler explanation.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:20 p.m. CST

    And, sunspot mike - where are we with Amy and Rory

    by DoctorTom

    doubtlessly we will have them from two different time periods - the earlier one on April 11, 2011 where they go back to Space: 1969, and we probably get the older Petrichor couple when it is time for penetrating Area 52 (or, if you prefer, Assault on Castle Kovarian).

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:23 p.m. CST

    The crucial series episode is... "Space"

    by Dasinfogod

    Listen, can we talk?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:26 p.m. CST

    doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    Unless otherwise proven wrong, I think they are from the future, the fleet destroyed by the Doctor... thrown back in time in the destruction...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:27 p.m. CST

    Let's try that again...

    by Dasinfogod

    Oh, I forgot, for some inane reason, quotation marks wipe out text on AICN. Bah! I'll try to reconstruct my previous note... Amy: Listen, can We talk? Doctor: RORY!!! Amy: No. Shut up; I just got a Question, that's all... The TARDIS was just entering "Conceptual Space" and Amy may have unwittingly concocted The Question, and the Doctor is avoiding hearing it at all costs.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:46 p.m. CST

    This is all just a crossover with DC Universe..

    by HornOrSilk

    This is the proof: http://tinyurl.com/3uwrqmr The rebooting of the DC Universe is all because of Amy. Now you know the rest of the story.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 6:51 p.m. CST

    The Question...

    by notspock2

    I really think it has to be -Doctor Who? I know that's not hugely sophisticated and kind of obvious, I just hope by the time the characters find out, the dramatic significance of there being a question has been raised sufficiently for it to be deeply resonant.

  • You've got to let go, man, you're sounding like the Amy's TARDIS house people now who demand to be proven wrong.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:06 p.m. CST

    I think we effectively heard the question in the preview trailer

    by DoctorTom

    It's the Doctor asking: Before I go, I'd like to know why I have to die. <br> Especially with the later comment that he never realized that all the times he heard those words (Silence will fall) he didn't realize it meant his silence, his death.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:09 p.m. CST

    doctortom that is one of the options for the question

    by HornOrSilk

    The question of one's own death; and prophecies about the question is true for everyone -- the universe (or a microcosm of it) is destroyed in their experience of that question. It also goes with my interpreting of the Wedding of River Song being something alchemical.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Interpret this

    by HornOrSilk

    Hereupon one after another arose, and with his own hand writ himself down in this book. When thin also was performed, the little crystal fountain, together with a very small crystal glass was brought near, out of which all the Royal Person, one after another drank, Afterwards it was reached to us too, and so forward to all persons, and this was called, the Draught of Silence. Hereupon all the Royal Persons presented us their hands, declaring that in case we did not now stick to them, we should now and never more hereafter see them; which verily made our eyes run over. But our president engaged her self and promised very largely on our behalf, which gave them satisfaction. Mean time a little bell was tolled, at which all the Royal Persons waxed so mighty bleak, that we were ready utterly to despair. They quickly put off their white garments again, and put on entirely black ones.he whole hall likewise was hung about with black velvet, the floor we covered with black velvet, with which also the ceiling above (all this being before prepared) was over-spread. After that the tables were also removed away, had all had seated themselves round about upon the form, and we also had put on black habits. In comes our president again, who was before gone out, and brought with her six black taffeta scarffs, with which she bound the six Royal Persona eyes. Now when they could no longer see, there were immediately brought in by the servants six covered coffins, and set down in the hall also a low black seat placed in the midst. Finally, there steps in a very coal-black tall man, who bare in his hand a sharp axe. Now after that the old King hat been first brought to the seat, his head was instantly whips off, and wrapped up in a black cloth, but the blood was received into a great golden goblet, had placed with him in this coffin that stood by, which being covered was set aside. Thus it went with the rest also, so that I thought it would at length have come to me too, but it did not. For as noon as the six Royal Persons were beheaded, the black man went out again; after whom another followed, who beheaded him too just before the door, and brought back his head together with the axe, which were laid in a little chest. This indeed to me seemed a bloody Wedding, but because I could not tell what would yet be the event, I was fain for that time to captivate my understanding until I were further resolved.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:31 p.m. CST

    The Alchemical part of Wedding might be apt, horn

    by DoctorTom

    Given that blurb about Churchill and his advisor, I was thinking of it casting the Doctor in a more mystical/seer tradition. <br> <br> Of course, the more I think about it, the more amused I would be if it's referring to wedding in alchemical terms. Lawrence Miles was effectively doing this in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street when he was having the (Paul McGann) Doctor going through a service to alchemically wed the Doctor to the Earth since Gallifrey was gone. I'm sure that if there's anything even remotely smacking of an alchemical wedding and the Doctor we might hear the gnashing of teeth from Miles' quadrant.

  • which could have been relevant except we haven't had any setup for my thought. <br> The whole -and with his own hand writ himself down in this book- part made me think of the books in the Land of Fiction. It made me go on to think that the Doctor could go and write himself into the books in the Land of Fiction to make himself fictional (you know what I mean, fictional from his standpoint, a fiction's fiction for us) so that even when he dies his fictional self would still be around. That seems sooooooo like something Moffat might try. I don't think it's the right answer, but with the Dark Faerie Tale feel he tries for, it seems like the type of thing he might try to pull off.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:37 p.m. CST

    doctortom It would be odd it it were a coincidence

    by HornOrSilk

    Drought of Silence and everything. I only thought of the connection recently-- it certainly would work. As for Miles, well, if he gets upset, then let him get upset. It's not as if he won't get upset, no matter what we see ;)

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:39 p.m. CST

    tricky dick, most of us LIKE this season of Who overall

    by DoctorTom

    Sure, there's some average stories and not all are good. You don't seem to like stories that have captured the fancy of the vast majority of the people here, though, like The Girl Who Waited. Also, a season with The Doctor's Wife in it cannot be rated as profoundly disappointing.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:39 p.m. CST

    Doctortom so many classical Who stories could fit in

    by HornOrSilk

    Celestial Toymaker (as I believe you mentioned) In a weird way, Abominable Snowman/Web of Fear (doubt it, but there is something about it which would fit) Mind Robber Pyramids of Mars Castrovalva Trial of a Time Lord Curse of Fenric etc

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:40 p.m. CST

    thanks Horn, you made me laugh with the Miles comment

    by DoctorTom

    because, like most humor, it encompasses the truth.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 7:44 p.m. CST

    You are welcome, Doctortom

    by HornOrSilk

    We have a good crew of Who fans here. Of course, for many who might not know all about Miles, let's just say-- he wrote some books and audios; he actually had some interesting ideas, but he really has not approved anything of the new series and constantly writes the funniest rants against the show.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:31 p.m. CST

    Closing Time - best episode of the season

    by ThrowMeTheIdol

    It had a plot, unlike most of the other episodes which were just stalling for time and running around. This was a solid, real episode. I didn't think the show had it in it anymore.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Talk about divided.

    by gotilk

    Surprising. I just watched it again and appreciated it a little more. I like it. I still dislike the "love conquers all" ending, but to heck with me. People love that stuff. And it's certainly not always the case, not by a long shot.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:34 p.m. CST

    Levity....

    by gotilk

    I cannot be the only one who geeked out at the Inspector Spacetime thing on Community. Are we pretending it didn't happen?

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 8:36 p.m. CST

    @Sam on returning to the Library

    by veteran_of_mu

    MOV suggested the Library Sonic has not been forgotten and will feature in upcoming events. Just how upcoming ... deponent sayeth not.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:20 p.m. CST

    the newspaper, the invitations and the date

    by bongo dummy

    The date for the death is supposed to be April 22, 2011 The date on the newspaper seemed to look like 19th April 2011 Someone else should double-check, if it seems worth doing so. After the Doctor begins work at the store and encounters Craig again, it should be 20th April. That places the day the Doctor leaves Craig’s time as being on 21st April 2011....if I’m right. The Doctor seems to only have two invitations which need to be mailed. My guess would be the Williams and Delaware III so that seems terrestrial and all that. Yet, one days notice to travel from where ever to Utah. That is just one day to put it in the mail and for the invites to arrive and for them to travel to the spot. I get how the Younger Doctor and River pull off such a trick but the others? How do they get it on Monday and go there that day? Unless that school bus was a magic bus...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:32 p.m. CST

    @bongodummy ... There once was a postman named White

    by veteran_of_mu

    Who travelled much faster than light His shift started one day In a relative way And completed the previous night The Doc can drop off the invitations in any mailbox in time and space. No worries.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 9:46 p.m. CST

    @bongodummy - TardEx

    by DoctorTom

    When it absolutely, positively has to get there at a time of your choice, as long as Sexy wants to get it there.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 10:05 p.m. CST

    Thinking about something earlier...

    by gotilk

    what if the Doctor has more to do with time than he realizes.... As in.... if he dies, being the last of the *time lords*, time does actually halt because time itself relies on his (or any timelord's) existence. I'm sure this has been tossed off... ahem... about already. But I was thinking that maybe this is where the story is going. Must go back and see if there are any clocks on the wall in that diner. What time is it? Meh, I'm way off.

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 10:20 p.m. CST

    OK. Yeah.

    by bongo dummy

    I forgot about how the army was gather in “Good Man Goes to War.” It was a taxi service. But, didn’t he specifically ask for Sophie to mail the two invites? Even if you tell me that blue paper was not only physic paper but that once it starts traveling it goes as fast as it needs to.... I can see Delaware III living nearby and just driving there and I can see Rory and Amy getting a quick lift via TardEx but it is the delivery of the invitations that seems goofy. There was that note he had Amy post on Craig’s flat in The Lodger, but, she was ahead of the game when she did that. And, I’m willing to cut the show a lot of slack...

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 10:25 p.m. CST

    tricky dick - you're a troll, this season is Who at its most ambitious

    by sunspot_mike

    We've got some great serialized storytelling combined with care about stories that have a thematic link. We're not just getting one story where the Doc has to feel bad about his companions being used as soldiers (Journey's End) we're getting several stories in a row illustrating his effect on the people around him. All the way from A Good Man Goes To War to Closing Time, he's getting to understand that his 'gift' of bringing along companions (partners!) can be more harmful than wonderful. It's exciting and mysterious and some of the best dialogue we've ever gotten. For me, this is the show I've always wanted Doctor Who to be and I'm more engaged than ever! I've got some longtime fan friends that don't like River because they don't like to see the Doc as a romantic being, but they're still loving the mystery and the story arc. I only wish that next week was a 2-hour special, but if Moff delivers a satisfying payoff to this year emotionally and story-wise (ie, it's connected to the themes and makes sense according to the rules of the story), then I'll go on the record saying this is my favorite series yet. I thought that River Song was a fascinating storyline since Silence in the Library, and we're getting a payoff to that story three years later. That is my definition of epic!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 11:32 p.m. CST

    the one behind the silence is The Master

    by Hideo Kojima

    he needs a new body and thus made plans to create river song. needs a new body, hates the doctor and wants him dead.. sounds like the master all right!

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 11:36 p.m. CST

    this season...

    by Hideo Kojima

    I will withhold final judgment until the finale, but so far I'd say that it's not very good. It's not bad like McCoy's first season, but so very it's not spectacular like some people make it out to be... Just because some people are more critical and/or have different opinions doesn't mean they are wrong or trolls or whatever..

  • Sept. 25, 2011, 11:50 p.m. CST

    batmancw.. nice straw man argument

    by Hideo Kojima

    you said: -I would like to ask--Have y'all watched some of the utter crap that draws HUGE ratings in the US?- I ask: In what sort of fucked up logic does that actually matter regarding the quality and satisfaction one gets from another product?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:29 a.m. CST

    hideo - dick's callout to how he'd do the season made him a troll

    by sunspot_mike

    I can understand why some fans wouldn't love this season. It's different and that's why I called it ambitious. But Tricky Dick made a callout to try and get a response to how HE'd run this season. He could've just said how he'd do it, but he was 'troll'ing for responses. I was just calling him out for that.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 5:16 a.m. CST

    More of the Chemical Wedding

    by HornOrSilk

    Mean time the King and Queen for recreations sake, began to fall to play together. It looked not unlike chess, only it had other laws; for it was the Virtues and Vices one against another, where it might ingeniously be observed with what plots the Vices lay in wait for the Virtues, and how to re-encounter them again. This was so properly and artificially performed, that it were to be wished that we had the like game too. ----- That you shall not be willing to live longer than God will have you. ---- Nature is the daughter of time. ---- etc -

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:05 a.m. CST

    Good Lord, you lot have been busy...*spoilers*

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Now, how did my predictions pan out? Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad... Anyways, having gone into this episode knowing *roughly* what tone to expect, I got pretty much what I expected and enough kicks for a fairly satisfying 45 minutes of telly. I enjoyed the numerous 2nd Doctor shout-backs, the remarkably subtle use of cybermen, the 'Petrichor' reference, the semi-surprising re-appearance of Amy and Rory, the *small* scale of the story (beautifully old-who, I thought) and the Doctor telling Alfie to 'run', but I was less keen on the reliance on the 'love conquers all' motif that seems to be this season's over-arching methodology for defeating evil. But we would have to ask ourselves the following question - what is our denouement of choice? It seems to me that the Doctor's Wife has met near universal accord for its own resolution, but even there the story structure itself was no more inherently strong than here, and talking the cybermen out via logic has never worked particularly well with them. So, it was either 'defeat with love' or 'something timey wimey,' and the second was never going to happen. So we got what we got, and it was all kind of inevitable. Solid but unremarkable, I think; there was something very mid-period RTD about it all. Meh - that's a pretty lousy set of arguments right there. If I had been 8, and not watched swathes and swathes of Who, I'd have probably been pooping my kecks and rating it a classic. Oh, and I still can't decide if the Pond's chronology makes any sense whatsoever at the moment / any more. Maybe we're already seeing the 'everything happening at once' vibe that the finale seems to be heading towards. As for the epilogue; well, that was an interesting construction. That Moff fellow certainly likes challenges, doesn't he? And for my final comment - what can I write here that will get it stuck in Merrick's troll net? Right, got it: 'All the writers on Nu-Who are rubbish, the show has never been shittier and you're all a bunch of fakes.' Yep, that should do it.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:14 a.m. CST

    When the writers eventually do bring back the Master

    by Rebel Scumb

    the master! I might have known!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:15 a.m. CST

    And huskerdu2

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    I could argue that Alfie played the role of Stephen Daedalus... but I'm not going to :) And I read your hints but I must have immediately blanked them from my mind as they still came as a surprise to me when they cropped up. Well, not a surprise so much as a satisfying inevitability, in a Chekhov's prop kind of way. So, it was Sophie who went to Rymans, then - an important question answered.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:19 a.m. CST

    doctortom re: 'why do I have to die?'

    by Rebel Scumb

    Is indeed arguably one of the oldest and most profound questions in the universe, so I'll give you that. I'm still rooting for the question being: 'Doctor who?' though :p Aside from the 'fun' value of that, it is the oldest question on the show, and since the answer is the doctors name, then it ties in with River knowing the doctors name so it at least has that going for it as logic goes. I would be perfectly satisfied with your question being THE question though

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:29 a.m. CST

    Slow night.

    by gotilk

    No late-night people here these days?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:30 a.m. CST

    I don't have much to say

    by gotilk

    other than noticing it's getting a little slow here now as the week arrives. Be well DocBackers!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:34 a.m. CST

    Yes, it is slow - even though I thought I gave food for thought

    by HornOrSilk

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:34 a.m. CST

    Love conquers all also goes with

    by HornOrSilk

    Chemical Wedding theories

  • Those things are really cumbersome

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:55 a.m. CST

    oops

    by Dalius

    hit submit too early. Yes, was saying spacesuits are really cumbersome. Fall over and you can't get up on your own. So how could the doctor escape this certain death? He wouldn't even have to run away, he could just walk away .... very slowly. :-)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 6:56 a.m. CST

    Eyepatches

    by Dalius

    Perhaps the Silence post-hypnotic trick of making you forget them only works if you are looking at them in stereo. ;-)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 7:56 a.m. CST

    sleekloon - link doesn't work mate, but from what you're describing....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...this looks like it is from an interractive Who experience called "Crash of the Elysium..." ...something I have been to, by the way and fucking rocks!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 8:07 a.m. CST

    batmancw- I hear what you're saying....

    by sam jacksons wig

    ...and I agree with you regarding Who being one of the very best things on TV. It is for that very reason the juxtaposition of complaining when an episode isn't what it should be is here- although better than most drivvel (and I don't watch much TV as we have a plentitude of shit between those 4 corners to assault our eyes and sensibilities) we still expect better when an inferior episode hits the TV. It is far more noticable than a bad episode of something else.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 8:24 a.m. CST

    Closing Time fun

    by John Hammel

    Overall, fun episode. Nice sequel to The Lodger. Complaints about the Cybermen are a bit much. It was clearly stated that they were a remnant of a crashed ship and in dire need of energy and were only just starting to rebuild their numbers. Dealing with six and the cybermat/rat? must be easier than a shipload. Cybernetic organisms could have varying methodologies for converting humans. It is interesting that humans make the best? cybermen. Also, trying and failing to scrub the emotions and resulting feedback makes sense even with the Doctor trying to explain it's biochemical component, while reluctantly accepting the "it was love" answer. I think the point was that the Doctor was looking for something fun to do before the end and was drawn into the situation, as usual. He is pulled to significant points in time where he is needed.

  • Three comments from someone who attended the Press Review. 1) There are some BIG surprises, including at least one that even the most eager spoilerhounds have not seen coming (so far). 2) It looks great. As in, you’ll wonder if the BBC upped the budget for this one, and you’ll have even more respect for the SFX team. Apparently there are no dodgy moments. 3) It’s INFURIATING. Some old questions are wrapped up, not all of them that convincingly. Some new questions are posed, some of them very exciting. One of them, apparently, seems to hint towards the 50th anniversary plans. Now, that's kind of annoying, isn't it? That the episode is infuriating? I guess anyone expecting all their answers to be delivered in a few days, needs to dial back their expectations. Also, this scene comes from the Doctor Who Magazine: DORIUM: On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered. THE DOCTOR: Silence will fall when the question is asked... DORIUM: Silence *must* fall would be a better translation. The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore. THE DOCTOR: I don't understand? What's it got do do with me? DORIUM: The first question. The oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight. Would you like to know what it is? THE DOCTOR: Yes! DORIUM: ...Are you sure? Now, from that, I get the impression that it will be leading up to the 50th anniversary somewhat. The fall of the 11th implies that it will be Matt Smiths final adventure. And it seems to harken back to something 10 said to River about his name. *You whispered my name in my ear. There's only one way I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could.* Perhaps he meant on the fields of Trenzalore? But then, if 10 knew, why doesn't 11?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 8:59 a.m. CST

    The chemical wedding *spoilers*

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Interesting; I'd not been au fait with any aspects of Rosicrucianism, other than its name, before this parallel was brought up, and there's something to be said for it. Drifting away from Rosenkreuz's major text, which formed the third part of the manifesto of the Rosicrucian order, from what I understand, given that the rosicrucian order was a secret order comprised of Doctors who were also bachelors, there may be something to this parallel. But... It's all a bit Goth, isn't it? I mean, true, Davison is Moffat's Doctor, which by default makes Moffat a child of the 80s, and hence a fan of Goth, despite him having been born in 1961, but *really*? Hang on - we've got Norse gods coming up; can't get more goth than that. Mind you, next week I reckon we'll just get some weird Judas wedding with a theme song sung by Angry Anderson, and this will be followed by a replay of the last supper by lake Silencio, which will be paid for in full with 32 minutes of silver extracted painfully from the memory of River Song. Of course, if we get four paths next week, or bread split into four during that game of live chess, or River Song turns up with a trumpet at some point, then we have ourselves a theory. And as a brief aside, I offer you the following bon mot for a mind greater than mine: Deuterium, levitium, revelationine. Chemistry: It's like a religion to some people.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:16 a.m. CST

    A quick thought on expectations

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Whenever I tune in, I'm expecting a funny, mildy exciting, PG-scary adventuresome kid's show featuring a decent variety of sets and quality acting, and this year has done that pretty much across the board, even with the Pirates episode, whose main weakness was that it didn't quite feel 'real' within the context of what we perceived as the current Whoniverse, but as an episode of a kids show was really not all that bad. Okay, moving *rapidly* on from a fairly vapid defence of Black Spot, what I *hope* for when I tune in is a beautiful slice of sci-fi that transcends the strictures of a mainstream show whose primary function is to freak out children, and occasionally Who delivers on those hopes - Blink, SitL, and even Planet of the Ood does(and I really liked that episode, damnit. Ah, I think there's something wrong with me. Must be all that hair tonic.) Okay, PotO wasn't *that* good, but the other two were, and FoB/HN was also very special. But I don't *expect* them; like a number of us, I make concessions and am happy to do so - one man's meat is another man's poison and so forth. Anyways, for my money, that was the best Cybermen episode of Nu-Who thus far. Or maybe the second best. Or possibly the third best. How many have there been, again?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:29 a.m. CST

    Fields ***spoilers***

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    Trenzalore? Trenzalore? That isn't anywhere near Tralfalmadore is it? And I notice Dorium says, "no *living* creature." So if we have, say, a zombie undead Doctor, we'll be fine, because he can lie as much as he wants. Maybe that's this season's big reveal - that for series 7, the Doc will be a zombie. Yay for the undead.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:44 a.m. CST

    So, Dalius, are you suggesting

    by DoctorTom

    that the parallel earth Brigadier (with the eyepatch) would never get fooled by the Silents? ;)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:48 a.m. CST

    doctortom now we know about Inferno

    by HornOrSilk

    The Silence had their victory? ;)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:50 a.m. CST

    ithrat_cordwallis with the Chemical Wedding

    by HornOrSilk

    I am thinking Moff would borrow aspects of it, but I don't think he needs to do all of it in order to have the Wedding of River Song to be based upon the Chemical Wedding. The fact that there are so many things which connect -- Silence, Daughter of Time (River Song), Chess, the King is beheaded, etc... just something tells me this is something the Moff is getting ideas from. So we will see.

  • that would definitely be adding something to the mythology if killing the last of the Time Lords caused Time to stop. <br> <br> I have a suspicion though that it won't be something like that. But, here's a thought that occurred to me. We're told that the question will bring an end to the universe. It doesn't necessarily mean that literally getting the answer means the universe ends right at that moment; it's more probable that the answer is such that it compels the person asking the question to make the right choice in his actions so that the universe ends. <br> Now, we know that we get some kind of muddled universe with everything happening at once. What if this universe was the result of the Doctor trying to pull a fast one to avoid getting killed at Lake Silencio, and the complete fracturing of time was the result? Then - going along with my theory before about us having seen the question in the trailer, we see what's really happening. <br> - (Doctor) Why do I have to die? <br> -(probably Gantok, but could be someone else) so that fixed point events at Lake Silencio take place as they should, and the regular universe with a proper time flow may be restored. <br> Based on the answer, the Doctor goes to Lake Silencio and dies. Since all time is happening at once, it serves as the date for the fixed point events to happen. The jumbled time universe comes to an end, and the universe resets to the one that we know. <br> <br> Think Moffat might try for a universal reboot at the end of two seasons in a row?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 9:57 a.m. CST

    ok, watched it again this morning

    by notspock2

    Enjoyed it quite a lot more than I did before when I got used to the idea that: 1. This was a Depowered bunch of Cybermen, and 2.That that it was Craig's parental instincts that saved the day. 3. That it's an atypical penultimate episode.. It's gone from a 5.5/10 to a 7.5/10 for me.. The first 20 mins are hilarious.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:04 a.m. CST

    v'shael - the Doctor's name

    by DoctorTom

    it might very well be on the fields of Tenzalore. Based on the 10th Doctor's comments that there's only one time he could tell River his name, I thought of two possibilities: <br> 1) When he dies. If so, then that might have been covered when he died in Let's Kill Hitler when he whispered to her. Of course, that could have been what we were supposed to believe, and it's all a double bluff. But he might have suspected that we would suspect the double bluff, and gone with the triple bluff by actually having him say his name to her there. But Moffat forgets, we're Sicilian, and one of the most important rules, only slightly behind Never get involved in a land war in Asia, is Never get involved in a duel with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Er, ahem...but I digress. Anyway, the other possibility for when it could happen is: <br> 2) When/if he marries her. Maybe he can only speak his true name to the person he's marrying at the time they get married. Whether it's a normal wedding or an alchemical wedding (at this point it could go either way). In which case, you probably know from seeing the press screening whether it happens on Saturday but aren't going to tell us because.... <br> <br> Spoilers!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:06 a.m. CST

    notspock2 first 20 mins

    by HornOrSilk

    Really solidified the episode for me, and why I think it is quite good. I also like the dark overtone behind the Doctor's humor; it is clear he is trying too hard to have fun while knowing death is coming. It's like those questions: what would you do if you knew you only had 24 hours to live? We have the Doctor's answer!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:06 a.m. CST

    doctortom I think 3) is the true answer

    by HornOrSilk

    He never told her; she read it on his crib!

  • I have a feeling that plotting up Dorium's timeline, especially as it relates to River Song, is going to be harder than plotting up River's timeline. <br> The one hard date we have is from The Pandorica Opens. For River, that takes place after A Good Man Goes To War. But, from the standpoint of the universe, does A Good Man Goes to War take place compared to The Pandorica Opens (and, for that matter, the end of Closing Time?). River needed a Vortex Manipulator in The Pandorica Opens, so presumably she didn't time travel there. So, it should be before the scene with River in Stormcage in AGMGTW. But, the big question is when the other events take place in relation to Stormcage? We know Kovarian has access to time travel (the time machine the Silents had in 1969, plus the knowledge that she has to get River from the 52nd century to 2011 somehow). So, while there are some indications that The Pandorica Opens take place after AGMGTW, it's not certain. It's possible that Dorium did get killed by the Headless Monks, but got better. <br> Following up on that, if The Pandorica Opens actually does take place after AGMGTW, then how does Dorium avert his fate? People had assumed gangers, but there's another possibility.... <br> Look at the picture the BBC has released for Saturday's episode (the one with plenty of eyepatches on the regulars). Right next to Commando Rory, we see the Doctor carrying a box. It looks to be one of the boxes the Headless Monks use. What's in the box? Is Dorium's head in there for safekeeping? Do the boxes keep the heads alive while the bodies are off doing their Headless Monk things? And, does the Doctor only figure this out well after those events, time travel back to Demon's Run for the purpose of sticking Dorium's head in a box? (Well, there might also be other reasons for going as well, but that could be one of the consequences.)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:19 a.m. CST

    doctortom your comments make me think

    by HornOrSilk

    While I thought the death of the Doctor could be the "beheading," now I think it could be Dorium's beheading which is the beheading.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:24 a.m. CST

    That's possible, horn

    by DoctorTom

    Given her lineage and stuff, it wouldn't surprise me that when the TARDIS taught River how to pilot her, she also gave her knowledge of the Gallifreyan language so that she could actually read the crib. <br> That said, though, it doesn't quite fit with the Doctor saying there's only one time she could learn his name. In a case like that all she would have to do is rummage around the TARDIS and stumble on the crib, which wouldn't limit it to only one time. <br> <br> I'm also wondering if that's the Doctor's full name on the crib, or if it's just the family name. I suspect that the Doctor wasn't the only one to use the crib before Melody - I suspect Susan used it, and possible the Doctor's children (before Susan....I think if all the wibbly wobbly timey wimey shenanigans going on in the last couple of seasons had been happening with William Hartnell he'd have packed it in and tried to find his way back to Gallifrey or had given it a proper sorting out sooner. He also would probably have called River a strumpet and/or an evil woman at some point.)

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:26 a.m. CST

    It would make sense, horn

    by DoctorTom

    of course, maybe the Doctor's carrying the box around for his own head. Though that wouldn't fit with how he died. <br> Still, Dorium's beheading seems to fit better than the Fat Guy's beheading, unless the Doctor worked up a cunning plan involving the Fat Guy and brought him in on it before he was beheaded...

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:30 a.m. CST

    On the finale ... *SPOILERS*

    by veteran_of_mu

    I don't like thinking about it. It makes me feel queasy. I feel certain it's going to raise far more questions than it answers, that I'm going to be one of the infuriated and that I'm going to be freeze framing the damn thing forever. Right now I feel I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen in this show *except* that River will marry a Doctor. I don't see any way around that - there's been too much silly buggers played this season for them to do a title like that and not have such an event somehow. Plus there's the whisper from LKH - ~These Are Our Wedding Clothes~ ... as long as it's not ~These Two Are The Bad Clones~ as I'd originally thought. Anyone think Live Chess sounds like Live Sex? Maybe it's kind of a red-light game in some parts of the galaxy ... ?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:54 a.m. CST

    doctortom with River

    by HornOrSilk

    The the time, the Doctor had no notion River would know Gallifreyan. So to me, it seems more likely he mistook how River got the name. As for when she learned Gallifreyan, I don't know, but I know she knows it.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:55 a.m. CST

    doctortom unless

    by HornOrSilk

    The Doctor is beheaded and the head on top is the Ganger's head... nah, that can't be.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 10:57 a.m. CST

    caractacuspott Even River suggested Wife

    by HornOrSilk

    Is too simple. So it makes sense to me it is something else going on than wedding as we were thinking.. hence.. my theory with the Chemical Wedding...

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:01 a.m. CST

    Y'all seen this?

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    http://www.sfx.co.uk/2011/09/26/doctor-who-%E2%80%9Cthe-wedding-of-river-song%E2%80%9D-spoiler-free-preview/ Looks like Mr. Merrick, with his re-watchable preview VHS with complimentary king-sized toblerone, is one lucky monkey. 12), 13) and 15) are the most interesting tidbits for me. Computer says no!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:12 a.m. CST

    That Dorium/Doctor dialogue is a bit of a bombshell (spoilers)

    by spacehog

    Huh. So the Silence are trying to PREVENT the end of the universe. Did everyone else get that from the start, and it's just me who's been an idiot? I thought they were trying to ENSURE the end, which is why I assumed they blew up the Tardis. This is making my head spin. And although there's nothing specific in that dialogue that makes me think this, I'm now guessing that the Doctor doesn't ask the question—I think we'll learn what the question is in the finale. Someone else will ask HIM. And he will be forced to give an answer he really does not want to.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:18 a.m. CST

    horn - River knowing Gallifreyan

    by DoctorTom

    either she picked it up from the Doctor (which would entail the Doctor spending long enough with her to teach her - I don't think he has a 'teach yourself Gallifryean' book the way he had a 'teach yourself Tibetan' book in Creature From the Pit), or the TARDIS taught her. It wouldn't surprise me if Sexy taught her the language at the same time she taught her TARDIS piloting.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:19 a.m. CST

    That picture in the blue tie

    by veteran_of_mu

    That's not the same doctor. I'm sure of it. That's the guy who's been trying to get back into the universe. Seriously. Longer hair. Pissed. Properly worldly. That's not the fish fingers doctor with all the antics and insecurities. That's the doctor with a complete understanding of the universe from one end to the other and how to fix it so it Fucking. Stays. Fixed. Am I reading vastly too much into a picture of a young actor with his hair freshly brushed? Sure I am. What else have I got to pin my hopes on now? O this is the dark night of the soul!

  • remember, Amy answered that question Yes, and then River said Oh, you ARE good. I'm not saying you're right, but you are good. So, it COULD be as simple as that. <br> But, I'm expecting some complications. <br> <br> And, just because there's a wedding doesn't mean that there's a honeymoon...

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Caractuspotts

    by DoctorTom

    there were preview images of the Doctor in All-time-happens-at-once-world, and he had longer hair and a beard. This picture looks like him coming back from that universe, after having a shave but not having had time for a haircut.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Official finale synopsis (spoiler)

    by veteran_of_mu

    The Doctor arrives at Lake Silencio in Utah because he needs to keep the universe safe - by going to his own death.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 11:58 a.m. CST

    @doctortom

    by veteran_of_mu

    Phooey, I am holding onto the vision of a Doc with the confidence of 1, the flexibility of 2, the strength of 3, the idealism of 4, the compassion of 5, the pride of 6, the guile of 7, the nobility of 8, the anger of 9, the passion of 10 and the intimacy of 11. Question: after DW, is there anyone who does not expect Matt Smith to assume the status of an Olivier? I mean ... can you imagine Smith in movies in 20 years making people just collapse from the intensity of his performance? And on this does anyone know where this is from: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrq926pcOY1qm7of1.gif ?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:07 p.m. CST

    But seriously, though

    by Ithrat Cordwallis

    If the Doctor's ability to shave himself is being brought into question, he should have mutton chops for series 7, because mutton chops are cool. And Caractacus, that long dark tea-time of the soul will soon be over; rest assured, my friend, that whatever comes to pass this coming weekend, you shall still have the whole internet over which to vent your wilfully over-complicated and frozen-framed fury. Also, CP, I've not signed up to Project Thryus yet as the first IT provision I have is not current enough to be able to cope with the interface, and my second IT provision is not reliable enough for me to able to log on, so if you're finding that your sacrificial donkey quota is running short, that is why. Will try and see what I can do over this coming week, though. Finally, if I manage to organize myself sufficiently (ha ha ha) I will hopefully post a wee short piece of fanfic somewhere for everyone to ignore. It's in screenplay format, with a run time of 45 minutes, and has the "advantage" of featuring an amalgam Doctor, because I wrote most of it before I'd watched any Matt Smith episodes. Then again, I'll probably just burn it, and enjoy the electrical bonfire instead. Hooray for me!

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:13 p.m. CST

    No worries ithrat, we can scarcely ...

    by veteran_of_mu

    begin any such project until after the finale shakes down. Anyway, I have a sick pussycat to nurse.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:17 p.m. CST

    @caractacuspotts - That animated gif is from The Doctors Wife.

    by V'Shael

    It's where he says I don't want you to (go).

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:36 p.m. CST

    haircuts

    by Minque

    gotilk – I very much enjoyed the Community clip. Do you know if that is a show generally worth watching? I quite liked Closing Time. It gave a bit of a breather that was both funny and poignant. I didn’t mind the Cybermen not being overwhelmingly menacing in this context. As usual, and I really try not to take it for granted, Matt Smith’s acting was fantastic. And, doctortom, speaking of a haircut, does anyone think this episode might end with the Doctor getting a haircut, putting on a new suit and exiting the TARDIS with a sonic screwdriver with red settings and dampers?

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 12:57 p.m. CST

    @doctortom

    by DeusExMachina

    This episode takes place before his death. The newspaper he looked at was dated April 19th 2011. This episode takes place over two days. http://bit.ly/phIkLz

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Then there's some wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff going on

    by DoctorTom

    Since it looks like there are 2 versions of Amy and Rory running around - the one picked up during The Impossible Astronaut were at Lake Silencio. (Let's call this set the Leadworth Ponds) After that they were with the Doctor until at least A Good Man Goes to War, dropped off and picked up again during Let's Kill Hitler and dropped off at the end of The God Complex at their new house. (Let's call this set the Petrichor Ponds.) <br> Some time had to have passed after The God Complex for them in order for Amy to be doing the Petrichor perfume line. So, there must be some overlap in time between the Leadworth Ponds and the Petrichor Ponds. (This also means that the house at the end of The God Complex isn't the same as the house at the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut. The Ponds in the 2nd half of the season are post-Melody birth. Amy was linked to the ganger on the Tardis in the 1st half of the season. So, if it were the same house, you'd have both sets of Ponds crashing in the place at the same time.) With the overlap in time, it makes sense that the place the Doctor gave them wouldn't be in Leadworth. Keep them away from Leadworth and you avoid some of the paradoxes. I wonder, though, if the Petrichor Ponds go to Leadworth and wave at their younger selves from a distance (it would have been amusing to see them in a distance at the edge of the cornfield in Let's Kill Hitler, they way they were waving to themselves in the Silurian story last season). <br> It also makes me wonder if the younger Amy has seen the Petrichor ads with her on them. I don't know if it's exclusive to that store (or store chain) or if it's supposed to be a big thing across the country (and maybe the world) - again, something that should take some time to set up. Maybe inside the house the Doctor left them controlling options in a perfume company. <br> Still, if the Petrichor Ponds are pre-Silencio from a calender standpoint, there has to be a reason they're not showing up at Lake Silencio. I suspect that it's going to be because they're going commando (not that way - commando RAID - well, maybe that way too, you never know with them) on the raid on Area 52. We'll know Saturday.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Here's a weird thought for the next episode

    by DoctorTom

    We all have had theories about how the Doctor gets out of his death at Lake Silencio. What if the episode starts out with Time-All-At-Once-World, after the Doctor has done his clever bit to avoid his death and inadvertantly collapsing time....and we don't get to find out the clever plan he had used? We just get to see the aftermath. It would actually be amusing if that's what gets pulled off.

  • Sept. 26, 2011, 2:28 p.m.