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Mamet's THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK Isn't THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK & Might Not Happen Anyway...
Merrick here...
Back in mid August, we learned that David Mamet would be writing and directing a new adaptation of THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK (details HERE).
Turns out, the project may not happen because THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK wasn't THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK.
TheWrap has a brief-but-interesting piece indicating that the project has been put into turnaround at Disney. Several factors may play into this decision, including the recent departure of chairman Dick Cook (which appears to have destabilized several high profile undertakings at the studio). But, at the end of the day, seems Mamet didn't give The Powers That Be what they were expecting:
...the screenplay is not a retelling of the famous Holocaust drama taken from the diaries of Frank, but about a contemporary Jewish girl who goes to Israel and learns about the traumas of suicide bombing.
[EDIT]
"It's very intense, and dark and scary," said the executive. "It's not a film version of 'The Diary of Anne Frank.' The story evolved into something more intense."
...says TheWrap HERE.
I always thought THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK was pretty dark, scary, and intense. I suppose the quoted executive means Mammet's work was 'dark, scary, and intense' in a different way?
[EDIT]
"It's very intense, and dark and scary," said the executive. "It's not a film version of 'The Diary of Anne Frank.' The story evolved into something more intense."
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Bad joke. But I made it anyway.
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Sep 25, 2009 7:48:04 AM CDT
The Diary of Anne Frank was neither a diary nor frank. Discuss.
by brandloyalist
A re-imagining of... Anne freakin' Frank? Most horribly and inappropriately irreverent idea since Abrams' Superman script. Talk amongst yourselves.
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Of course any such claims will be viewed as anti-semitism.
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Maybe she can torture her way free of the camp, kill Hitler and become a famous American novelist?
There's already enough retards in the world who think the original was fiction, so why not go the whole hog? -
crap like Eli Weasel work is an insult to those that have died.
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is not in itself anti-semitic. It's retarded, but not anti-semitic.
Claiming that it has been proved to be a work of fiction, is anti-semitic. Because the only people who claim that that has been proved, are people for whom it has also been "proved" the Holocaust never happened.
You got proof? Lay it on us. Otherwise, shave your head and go fuck a nazi. -
Sep 25, 2009 8:15:35 AM CDT
V'Shael: You Proved My Point with you Classic Anti-Semitism Rant
by darfurontherocks2
The book is a work of fiction. Anne Frank did not write it. I have an MA in English Lit so if you want to discuss whether it is an example of creative non-fiction then I am open to that. However, please stop with the childish rants because it just makes you look juvenile.
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Sep 25, 2009 8:21:37 AM CDT
There is a Debate of the Veracity of the Diary Itself Also...
by darfurontherocks2
certain scholars pose the question whether a 12 year old was capable of articulating herself in such a manner. That is a debate. The diary itself could very well be genuine, and I lean that way. But to call anyone that beleives otherwise an anti-semite is bigotry itself.
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"...adapted by provocateur playwright and filmmaker David Mamet as a pro-Israel exploration of anti-Semitism movie set in contemporary times..." In other words, too political, not too dark, or rather, the wrong sort of political. Reading that description, I can see what they were worried about. That film would have been guaranteed to attract protests for its (presumeably one-sided) right-wing stance.
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Sep 25, 2009 8:23:16 AM CDT
V'Shael: You Probably Think that Cinderella Man was a Documentar
by darfurontherocks2
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Does it star Barack Obama? Cuz the diabetic mallwalkers marching on Washington said Obama is a Nazi.
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Nobody knows whether or not it's real, because everyone who knows the truth is dead.
Besides, your English degree won't help you in discovering the truth, because IT WASN'T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH. While yes, the original releases (in German as well as in English) were edited by Otto Frank, full direct translations are available. I would recommend "The Diary of Anne Frank: The Revised Critical Edition", as it has the original text right next to two other releases.
The original volumes have been researched extensively, and are both (A) consistent with material commercially at the time; and (B) in Anne's handwriting.
In reference to this story, Mamet is a douche. For every good film or play he writes, he gives us at least one steaming pile of shit (Oleanna). -
"commercially AVAILABLE at the time"
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Seems in this contemporary retelling, Anne is in a virtual chamber and escapes only to find out the holocaust was a virtual experiment from the nazis in cahoots with the blacks to try and stop the jews from remaking movies and putting their favorite cartoons in the hands of other evil jews to be made into films. The blacks and nazis figured out that with a little bit of soul music and beer, you can make a time machine and do whatever the fuck you want so they thought theyd do something big and try and change hollywood because if you control the media you control the world. Anyways, Anne Frank is played by Tylor Perry and instead of a journal, its twittering to the audience so you will see a small screen on the bottom with occasional twitters. Plus, if you sign up early for the film you will be able to get twitters delivered to your account during the scenes in the film plus after so the film stays with you longer... It will play to the Paranormal Activity crowd. So its Paranormal Activity meets The Fly remake meets half a billion dollar script idea meets Lord of the Rings meets Slumdog Millionare. Directed by Chris Pine.
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And of course, I mean Dutch, not German. Sorry, but holier-than-thou "I have a degree in X" dipshits get my dander up and I make mistakes. Obviously..
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to play the villain.
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Now THAT would be a mistake!
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Dude, pay attention. I didn't say that claiming the book was fiction was anti-semitic. I said those who claimed that it has been proven to be a fake, are anti-semitic.
For someone with an alleged Masters in English Lit, your powers of reading comprehension seriously suck ass.
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Make it happen. Cast Ringo Starr as Anne Frank, a CGI Walther Mathau as the father. No nazis, only meteors. Killer meteors.
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DarfurOnTheRocks2 makes a valid point. I've often wondered who took all those photographs of Anne Frank posing with her diary? You can find at least 3 different staged looking photos if you do a quick google image search. I don't think happy family snaps would be a massive priority when you're on the run/in hiding. Why was the dairy so important that it warranted loads of photographs?When were they developed anyway? And why weren't they destroyed along with the diary when she was discovered?! Hmmmmm...could it all be propaganda aimed at kids? Surely not...
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How was the Diary of Anne Frank not intense?! Does this moron executive think because he works for Disney that Anne Frank's story was f***ing Sound Of Music! Admittedly i'm not sold on Mamet's take but this executive sounds like a braindead moron...but then i guess that's the qualification isn't it.
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The book and the diary are two different texts. The book is a work of creative non-fiction. The book has 3 authors! Once again, I urge you to stop with the personal insults and address the issue in a civilized fashion.
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Whether the diary is real or not, many people are taught about the diary in their schooling. To make a movie titled "The Diary of Anne Frank" and not have it be about the girl and her family in hiding and then being captured and thrown in a concentration camp is an irresponsible and reckless assault at decency. It's called false advertising. Not to mention that, if set in modern day, it is probably more disturbing than the events we have seen depicted through the diary and earlier film of this. It is probably a bit over the top. It could possibly be made as a movie, but not with this title.
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i guess they're still fucking their sheep.
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Sep 25, 2009 9:08:54 AM CDT
433: It does not matter if it was not written in English
by darfurontherocks2
The concepts of written genres generally apply across languages. The book is a piece of creative non-fiction at best. The diary has debate ongoing as to the veracity of the text. Stop pretending that the debate should not exist. And dude, that idea of English majors waiting tables is fiction also.....
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Like I said, you got proof? Lay it on us. If you don't, then kindly STFU.
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Ignorant god-fearing rednecks on one side, sane intelligent rational scientists on the other.
Just because deniers like to claim there's a debate, doesn't mean there's an actual debate. It just means that they aren't convinced, and will never be convinced, because you can't reason someone out of a belief that they didn't use *reason* to derive. -
That is my overarching point here. People are capitalizing on a historical event to the point of passing off historical fiction as fact and then appearing on Oprah, with her championing the fiction as fact, only for it to be exposed at a later date. How does that honour the 6 million dead?
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Sep 25, 2009 9:19:12 AM CDT
I have a degree therefore my opinion means more than yours
by judge dredds fresh undies
Degrees aint worth shit, even I have one!
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Geez, I must have missed that.
Well done sir, a national appearance by the supposed dead girl would certainly constitute proof. I utterly apologise. How could I ever have doubted you?
When did that air, if you don't mind me asking? And what were you smoking when you saw it?
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... if he signs on to make "The Diary of Anne Frank" then make the freakin' "Diary of Anne Frank"!.. some of these "auteurs" always feel like the source material is somehow beneath their "vision" and that they can improve on anything and everything. There IS a way to adapt things artfully or stylistically AND respect the source material. This holds true for adapting everything from classic literature to comic books. The arrogance of some of these directors and writers never ceases to amaze me.
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BOOOOOSH!
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"Hey ya'll! They be makin a movie about me and shit"
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It was pretty fun
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Not a rehash, remake, or reboot? Ew ew do not want!
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Fucked up my front fender
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If you haven't seen it, yet, check out Paul Verhoeven's "Zwartboek" ("Black Book"). It's about a Jewish girl trying to survive in the Nazi-occupied Netherlands at the end of WWII. It's well acted, beautifully shot, has a bit of action, and stars the incredibly wonderful Carice van Houten. It's proof positive that Paul Verhoeven is still one of the best directors working on this planet. It also has tits, bush, and full frontal Nazi cock, so it has something for everyone!
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Keep on creating a strawman argument however.... That keep on dismissing that FACT that I have declared the holocaust to have happened in the last 3 posts.... By initial post that the work was fiction was not precise enough and I apologize for that. Are you in disagreement with my other posts? Please respond in a civilized manner....
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Should be getting Valkyrie any day now. Need my Van Houten fix like, yesterday.
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It was Holocaust scholars who debunked the Rosenblatt hoax 'memoir' last year. The one where he claimed his wife threw apples over a fence to him at Auschwitz.
Total falsehood, and while the film and publishing world and Oprah were gushing over the yet-unpublished book, it was Holocaust scholars who debunked it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/books/29hoax.html
The Holocaust, and history, already has enough tragic stories to tell. Why phony one up to make a buck? The fact that they're going ahead with making a movie anyway out of this hoax is fucking unreal. I'm sure there are some real survivor stories out there that deserve the attention. -
Also, I'm pretty sure if you scratch Darfur's surface all sorts of unsavory things will scuttle forth.
It would be interesting for him to list, for example, some of the so-called scholars debating the veracity of the diary. I guarantee each and every one will have some sort of connection to either a far right, far left or religiously zealous organization. It's the same with "scientists" who claim the six-day creation scenario is true -- they ALL have some sort of connection to religious organizations. -
...Megan_Fox_sucks_cocks is the dumbest talkbacker of the week.
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Whether you are trying to claim the *book* or the *diary* is a work of fiction, is a meaningless distinction to me.
The fact that you claim it has been *proven* to be fake, is what counts. Regardless of whether the "it" in question was the book, or the diary.
As I've said, several times... you got proof? Lay it out.
You don't got proof? Well, carry on trying to hide behind meaningless semantic distinctions then, why don't you? -
...comparing the writing of contemporary American 12-year-olds with that of Dutch 12-year-olds of the 1940s.
I wonder what he has to say about Jean Hatzfeld's books on the Rwandan genocide where, among others, 12-year-olds and teenage survivors tell of their experiences. By Darfur's rationale, their incredible eloquence (translated from French) is proof that Hetzfeld's books are forgeries.
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Sep 25, 2009 11:26:25 AM CDT
"All I Have To Say Is They Don't Really Care About Us"
by professor_monster
We will never be allowed to move past the holocaust - no healing. This constant reminder allows an illegal occupation and the destruction of a neighboring people . Controlled media keeps sympathy on the side of those who insist they are "god's chosen". Bullshit. How about a movie on WHY. Why did an entire country turn on these people - if you believe it's because they didn't have blonde hair and blue eyes then you are stupid. How about the fact that Germans were not allowed in most "jew only" stores and neighborhoods. And if they were they were gouged, charged 50-80% more. HG Welles called Jews "termites" - they embed themselves in the crevasses of a structure and are made known when it's too late. They say money is the root to all evil and the jews control the world bank - wicked wicked wicked
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AND THAT PROBLEM IS TRANSPORT
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Sep 25, 2009 11:35:33 AM CDT
V'Shael: I Stand Corrected: Proven and Fake were too strong word
by darfurontherocks2
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And that is my proof. If you are saying that she did write the novel in addition to the diary then then YOU need to prove that. Again, this is not a question of semantics: There are too different pieces of work.... Have you read either?
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Next you will tell us that Israel is not killing Palestinians and treating them like animals?!!!!
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OK, here's some evidence that Frank did actually write her diary: her name is on the front cover. Sure, that might not be the most reliable evidence in the world, but it's evidence all the same. How about you prove everyone else wrong by citing some of this scholarly so-called debate
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Peace can only be achieved from a position of humility - on both sides. Each side must recognize the harm inflicted and suffered by the other. If reason prevails such recognition leads to reconciliation. I'm glad Mamet got tossed. There already are documentaries that tell true stories about this subject. The world doesn't need Mamet's biased, racist fiction. Bury this idea for good and let's move forward.
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Sep 25, 2009 12:02:40 PM CDT
Monkey Butler: I agree that she probably Wrote the Diary
by darfurontherocks2
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That's the only movie that needs to be made.
Since there's very little discussion here about the actual movie, I thought I'd throw a non sequitur in, too.
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...that Israel is not killing Palestinians and treating them like animals?!!!"
I'm so pleased you posted that. It shows where you're coming from, ideologically. As for Israel treating Palestinians like shit -- of course they are. Why would I deny that?
How about the name of a scholar or two who doubt the veracity of Anne Frank's diary? -
Could you be more cretinous?
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I made no other claims than: saying that it had been proven a hoax, was anti-semitic bullshit.
You've now admitted that proven fake was the wrong thing to say. As far as I'm concerned, case closed. I don't NEED to prove anything to you, because I didn't make any retarded claims. -
They are very polite, clean, and they keep track of all my money...I see a jew every year to do my taxes...Man just think of how many H&R Block stores there would be if the Holocaust had not happend...Jews are the best.
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The Diary of Lizzy Borden. I'd watch that.
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Why is my post dumb? Can you explain all the photographs? The importance of the diary only came to light after Anne Frank's death... so why all the posed photographs?
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That was blatant patronization and that shit aint kosher, dude.
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The term “Palestine” is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word Filastin is derived from this Latin name.3
The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 B.C.E. David’s son, Solomon, built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon’s son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 B.C.E., when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 B.C.E. The Jewish people enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward before most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.
Jewish independence in the Land of Israel lasted for more than 400 years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States. In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be more than 3,000 years old today.
Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most of the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.” >
Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:
We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.
In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: “There is no such country as Palestine! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.7
The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said, Palestine was part of the Province of Syriaand that, politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity. A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.”8
Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel’s capture of the West Bank. -
First Darfur makes some blanket statement that the Diary of Anne Frank was a fake. Then he claims proof. Then he claims it was probably fake. Then he claims he meant the novel, not the actual diary. Then he says maybe 'fake' was not the right word. In all of this he never actually responds to requests for proof (just 12 year olds don't write like that). Then he makes some anti-Israel rant (demonstrating his real interest). In the mean time some others post some anti-jew hate. All on a news story that a film might not be what the title implies. Can't miss an opportunity to post some more hatred of Jews, can we now? They're all evil don'tchya know? Idiots.
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The Jewish population in "Palestine" increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II, while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000.13 In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947.
This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.
The Arab population increased the most in cities where large Jewish populations had created new economic opportunities. From 1922-1947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem. -
Despite the growth in Arab population in "Palestine", the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. The truth is that from the beginning of World War I, part of Palestine’s land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins.
Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as “the most important asset of the native population.” Ben-Gurion said “under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them.” He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. “Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement,” Ben-Gurion added, “should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.”
It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry.
When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: “They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.”
In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness and eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been “dispossessed.” British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government’s legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer.
In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded.
The Peel Commission’s report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that “much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased....there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land.”24 Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was “due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population.” The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities.
(Palestine Royal Commission (1937), pp. 241-242.)
In his memoirs, Transjordan’s King Abdullah wrote:
It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping (emphasis in the original).
(King Abdallah, My Memoirs Completed, (London, Longman Group, Ltd., 1978), pp. 88-89.)
Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews. (Porath (77), pp. 86-87.)
The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. “In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre.” (Aumann, p. 13.)
By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin. (Abraham Granott, The Land System in Palestine, (London, Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1952), p. 278.)
Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As’ad el Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews.
(Avneri, pp. 179-180, 224-225, 232-234; Porath (77), pp. 72-73.)
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with the hitler diaries. which were bogus. diary was written by anne frank. but her father kept all the notes and finished the diary in the way his daughter wanted and didnt change a word.
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Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be.
Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians’ ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years. (Al-Qibla, (March 23, 1918), quoted in Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1977), p. 128.)
Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad’s followers in the 7th century. (British Government, Report of the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry, 1946, Part VI, (April 20, 1946).
And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions (e.g., the Crusades) that killed off most of the local people, migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians.
By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people’s relation to the ancient Hebrews. -
And artificial means. No matter where you live, this is true. Why is it that when Jews act just like everyone else on the planet they are "stealing"? Do I sense a double standard? You do know that the original plan was a 2 state system where the Jews most of what is today Israel and the Palestinians got most of what is today Jordon. Then, both groups would share Jerusalem. The Palestinian leadership said "No thanks" because they knew that all of the surrounding nations would attack Israel on the day of its' creation. The leadership (which is not necessarily representative of the Palestinian people then or now) hoped that every single Jewish man, woman and child would be dead within 24 hours of the establishment of the state. That's why things are the way they are.
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what sickened the studio was mamet decision to modernise the anne frank story so that she becomes a suicide bomber. otto frank used the publication to warn the world about the atrocity which destroyed his entire family.
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If only it did rule.
But hey. The Jews were not indigenous to Germany. Germans had every right to Germany all to themselves. After all, it was called "Germany" and they were there long before the Jews.
I guess that excuses the Holocaust, then. What say you, TruthRules?
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Palestine was a name given to ISRAEL by the ROMANS.
The Romans renamed it Palestine after the Philistines, the Philistines had long since been GONE from the face of the Earth. The Romans called it Palestine since the Philistines were the ancient biblical enemy of the Hebrews, so by calling it "Philistina" (Palestine) it was a SLAP IN THE FACE to the Jewish people.
The name "Palestine" has nothing to do with the people who now call themselves "Palestinians". But it was a brillian marketing move of the so called "Palestinians" to take this ancient name and apply it to themselves, after all, then the whole world will think that "Palestine" belongs to ....the PALESTINIANS! Genius scam!!!
The truth though is that the Jews are the real ancient people of this land, and the name "Palestinian" applied to anyone who was living in that area once the Romans renamed it and persecuted the Jews there and drove a lot of the Jews OUT into exile, although there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in Israel, even in the most horrific of times, some managed to still stay there.
For many centuries, "Palestine" was a sparsely populated, poorly cultivated and widely-neglected expanse of eroded hills, sandy deserts and malarial marshes. As late as 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline. “The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years,” he said.
(Ben Halpern, The Idea of a Jewish State, (MA: Harvard University Press, 1969), p. 108.)
The Report of the Palestine Royal Commission quotes an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913:
The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the Jewish village of Yabna Yavne....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.(Palestine Royal Commission Report, p. 233.)
Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: “It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country.” (Neville Mandel, “Attempts at an Arab-Zionist Entente: 1913-1914,” Middle Eastern Studies, (April 1965), p. 243.)
Even a leading Arab nationalist believed the return of the Jews to their homeland would help resuscitate the country. According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia:
The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna’ihi l asliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor. (Al-Qibla, (March 23, 1918), quoted in Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1977), p. 128.)
As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers.
Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described it as: “...a desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.” (Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, London, 1881.) -
MEGAN FOX as ANNE FRANK!!
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Sorry buddy, but there NEEDS to be a Palestinian state at this point. Even if everything you wrote were inarguable truth (and not all of it is) the bloodshed of the modern age will not be solved by the Palestinian population leaving.
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Hey BSB,
You say what I wrote was a "dehumanization screed"????
Remember this:
Since day ONE, Israel and the Jews wanted peace with all their Arab neighbors, including the "Palestinians" who I'll stop putting in quotes because that's the name they have now, even if they are not the actual "Philistines" or "Canaanites" it doesn't matter, that's the name they have now, so that's fine.
1. The Jews offered from day ONE to share the land. Yes, the idea was one state for the Jews, and one for the Arabs. Go look this up, this is a fact. The Arab countries at that time all rejected this idea of SHARING and instead said WE WILL DESTROY THE JEWS AND DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA.
Keep in mind, this is all ALSO very fresh after the Holocaust as well. So it's not like we're dealing with very sentimental, friendly, BEST OF HUMANITY types here, are we? But yet you go on to talk about my post as being DEHUMANIZING????
2. Not only did the Arabs then reject the idea of sharing, they wanted to destroy the Jews there. Also, remember that JORDAN is ALREADY majority Palestinian, why not have THAT as the Palestinian state? Jordan already IS a Palestinian state!!!! It's right NEXT to Israel, it's not like it's far away, in fact, part of Jordan was supposed to be Israel, but whatever, the Jews got this TINY TINY SLICE of land, and the Arabs got 99% of the land in the mid-east, but I guess having less than 1% of the land is still TOO MUCH FOR THE JEWS ACCORDING TO YOU.
That's real humane of you, thanks.
3. The other thing is that the Jewish people, the VAST MAJORITY OF THEM, still DESPERATELY WANT PEACE. The reality though is that when certain Palestinian leaders insist on having a MILLION Palestinians flood into Israel as part of some "peace" agreement, the reality is that these Palestinians know that flooding Israel with a million more Palestinians will take the country over by demographics alone because Israel is a democracy.
These kinds of Palestinian leaders do not want another state BESIDE Israel, they want to ELIMINATE ISRAEL by any means possible, including through demographics.
Keep in mind also, that there were an EQUAL number of JEWISH refugees that had to flee the Arab states back in 1948 as well, but those refugees were gladly absorbed by Israel, even though Israel had barely the resources then to handle it. The Arab countries however did virtually nothing to help the Arab refugees, that's why we have so many Palestinian refugees now.
And remember, there wouldn't BE any refugees to begin with, if the Arabs had not started an all out WAR against Israel on the very day of it's birth, a war bent on ERADICATING EVERY JEW THERE.
Israel did not create the Palestinian refugee problem, the Arabs created it by starting a war with Israel, a war Israel certainly did not want, a war which cost Israelis 1% of their ENTIRE POPULATION at the time, a time when the Jews had ALREADY lost 6 million just a few years before.
Now, thankfully, some Arab countries have truly stepped up. Jordan made peace with Israel.
So did Egypt.
Individual Arabs and Palestinians have tried to reach out for peace as well, but they get threatened by their own leaders to NOT make peace with Israel. That's because those leaders enjoy keeping their people in the dark about the truth. That making peace with Israel would be good for everyone.
That's what I want.
If that's DEHUMANIZING, then I have nothing else to say to you.
And your comment about "The Jews were not indigenous to Germany. Germans had every right to Germany all to themselves. After all, it was called "Germany" and they were there long before the Jews." is not a valid comparison at all, because in fact the Arabs who are citizens of Israel have full rights, they have members of Parliament, etc, etc. Show me ONE country in the middle east where JEWS would have those same rights. Wait, not even the ARABS or MUSLIMS have those rights in the middle-east!!! And don't even get me started on the lack of rights for women in those countries.
It's only in Israel that Muslims, Christians, Jews, women, gays, and everyone else is PROTECTED and has rights. And it's only since Israel was reborn as an independent state that ANYONE can now visit the ancient sites that are special, sacred, or holy to them.
If you care about HUMANIZING and being HUMANE, then you should be the biggest supporter of Israel.
Is Israel PERFECT?????
Of course not. ARE YOU PERFECT?
But in the relative balance of things, Israel IS ABSOLUTELY HUMANE, to a degree that is almost INSANE considering what was and is still being done to her.
I guess that excuses the Holocaust, then. What say you, TruthRules -
Israel has already pulled OUT of Gaza, and what happened then? The thanks was a lot more rocket attacks from Gaza. Also, Israel has already given autonomy to the Palestinians, and the only thing that Israel seems to get from any positive gestures is more violence. I promise you, the SECOND that the Palestinians truly accept Israel rather than trying to hatch more schemes to DESTROY it one way or another (including through demographics with the idea of having a million more Palestinians flooding into Israel) there will be peace and there will be two states, yes absolutely.
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In politics words matter and, unfortunately, the misuse of words applying to the Arab-Israeli conflict has shaped perceptions to Israel's disadvantage. As in the case of the term “West Bank,” the word “occupation” has been hijacked by those who wish to paint Israel in the harshest possible light. It also gives apologists a way to try to explain away terrorism as “resistance to occupation,” as if the women and children killed by suicide bombers in buses, pizzerias, and shopping malls were responsible for the plight of the Arabs.
Given the negative connotation of an “occupier,” it is not surprising that Arab spokespersons use the word, or some variation, as many times as possible when interviewed by the press. The more accurate description of the territories in Judea and Samaria, however, is “disputed” territories.
“Israel is an eye-opener. At the narrowest point, it's only 8 miles from the Mediterranean to the old Armistice line: That's less than from the top to the bottom of Dallas-Ft. Worth Airport. The whole of pre-1967 Israel is only about six times the size of the King Ranch near Corpus Christi.”
In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of the hotly contested region of Kashmir.
Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967. Only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan’s action. The Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state.
It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense. A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category:
And THIS is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein IGNORED the warning and attacked Israel. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank.
By rejecting Arab demands that Israel be required to withdraw from all the territories won in 1967, the UN Security Council, in Resolution 242, acknowledged that Israel was entitled to claim at least part of these lands for new defensible borders.
Since Oslo, the case for tagging Israel as an occupying power has been further weakened by the fact that Israel transferred virtually all civilian authority to the Palestinian Authority. Israel retained the power to control its own external security and that of its citizens, but 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza came under the PA’s authority. The extent to which Israel has been forced to maintain a military presence in the territories has been governed by the Palestinians’ unwillingness to end violence against Israel. The best way to end the dispute over the territories is for the Palestinians to fulfill their obligations to stop terror and to negotiate a final settlement. -
But it's not real. Lebanon is a democracy, with Jews, Christians, Muslims, and more ... guess who bombed them to shit? LOL Anyway even though you didn't answer my simple question I'll leave you to rant on. I'm off for a nice weekend. Don't forget to wipe your spittle asshole. LOL
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Mother, Father do you hear? Those cocksucking German motherfuckers are downstairs.
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Israel does not target civilians. Israel has no claim to Lebanese territory and no dispute with the people or government of Lebanon. Israel’s enemy is Hizballah, a terrorist organization that has been launching unprovoked attacks against Israelis since Israel WITHDREW from southern Lebanon in 2000. (So it seems it was a BAD idea to withdraw!)
It is one of the horrible consequences of war that civilians die. In Lebanon, Israel had gone to great lengths to avoid harming civilians. What other army drops leaflets telling civilians to leave an area, thereby giving away the element of surprise, in the interest of protecting innocents?
Let the critics of Israel’s campaign explain how they would respond to a barrage of more than 1,400 rockets on their cities. How would you feel if these rockets were falling on you?
How would the critics of Israel stop the rockets without hurting any noncombatants when the rockets are being fired from civilian neighborhoods rather than military bases?
Meanwhile, look carefully at the television pictures of the destruction in places such as Beirut. While the commentary by reporters often suggests Israel has bombed targets indiscriminately, what is remarkable is how precise the attacks actually have been. Frequently you see only a single building or a couple of structures damaged while the rest of the area is untouched. Israel could have easily leveled entire neighborhoods, but it did not.
Listen carefully as well. When reporters go to neighborhoods in Lebanon they are being guided by men from Hizballah who show them only what they want the reporters to see and tell them what Hizballah wants them to hear. The Hizballah terrorist says the building was a civilian residence, but the reporter has no way of knowing what was in the buildings, whether it was a rocket workshop, a hiding place for katyushas, the home of a Hizballah leader, or a command center. In fact, he doesn’t even know if the Israel was responsible for the destruction that he is shown. Does it make any sense that Israel would pick out a single residence in a Beirut neighborhood to bomb for no reason?
And notice too that the only people around are from Hizballah. The civilians are gone, so when the Hizballah terrorist tells the reporter they have to keep moving because the Israelis might strike, he knows that he and his fellow terrorists are the only targets.
Tragically, many civilians have died, but history has shown that the terrorists are very good at fabricating statistics. At one point, it was reported that something like 300 civilians had been killed and only one member of Hizballah. Does it seem plausible that in all of Israel’s attacks it only managed to kill one terrorist? Is everyone a civilian that the Lebanese claim is a civilian?
In war, mistakes are sometimes made. In some cases, troops kill each other in friendly fire incidents. In others, civilians die, as was the case when the United States killed 48 people at a wedding during fighting in Afghanistan. No one seriously believed the United States bombers had targeted people celebrating a marriage and no one should believe Israel has any reason to target trucks of food and medicine as the Lebanese president has alleged, or any other purely civilian target.
Besides the ethical and moral restraints, Israel has very good political reasons not to hurt noncombatants. Israeli officials know that a mistake leading to a large number of civilian casualties will hurt their image and provoke greater demands that they cease-fire before accomplishing their military objectives. An Israeli pilot openly admitted this consideration:
It’s strange how the focus in these missions is not to succeed, hit the target precisely, but rather – not to make any mistakes. The message is clear all the way from the Squadron commander to the last pilot. One mistake can jeopardize the whole war, like Kfar-Kana, in one of the last operations in Lebanon, where artillery bombarded a refugee camp, killing over 100 people, which resulted in international pressure that halted the operation. Hitting the target is expected, no misses are acceptable.
(Jerusalem Post, (July 18, 2006))
The main reasons Lebanese civilians are in danger have nothing to do with Israel. First, the Lebanese government failed to fulfill its obligation under UN Security Council Resolution 1559 to disarm Hizballah and deploy its army in southern Lebanon. Second, Hizballah has so little regard for civilians that it purposely bases its weapons and fighters in their homes and neighborhoods where they will be put at risk. Third, the civilians themselves have allowed Hizballah to create a state within Lebanon and to carry out terrorist attacks. Finally, if Hizballah had not attacked Israel, not a single Lebanese civilian would have been hurt. If Hizballah returns the soldiers it kidnaped and disarms, not one more civilian will die.
“The criticism that Israeli attacks aimed at Hezbollah are disproportionate is lazy and facile in several ways, especially in implying a moral relativism between the two sides that does not exist. This is not the contest between misguided equals that many in the West seem to see. One is the region’s lone democracy, which for much of its existence has faced a very real existential threat and would like, if possible, to live in peace with its neighbours. The other is a terrorist organization, bent on preventing such a future. ”
— Editorial, London Times
(London Times, (August 1, 2006)
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Sep 25, 2009 3:37:59 PM CDT
Can someone please bomb Iran and North Korea already????????????
by crackerfarmboy
Israel and Japan perhaps?
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if God does not exist? There's no God! Why bother being a jew or a muslin?
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Hollywood, 2009...
Studio Executive: We love the story, it has pathos! But can we do something about the ending? It's a real downer! We can get Megan Fox in the lead and instead of being gassed in a concentration camp, we can have a big action final act, where she leads the inmates in revolt! They kill many nazis and all break out of the camp and make it to freedom...With CGI of course and a $15,000,000 budget! -
I'll answer your question with a question:
In which photo can she be seen "posing" with her diary? Most pictures taken of her with books or writing materials were taken before she and her family went into hiding. She had writing aspirations and was constantly putting pen to paper.
Can you produce one single photo where she is posing with a book after she went into hiding that can be proven as her diary?
I won't hold my breath, you stupid cunt. -
with their jew magick!!!!! RUN RON HOWARD, PRAY TO THE CTHULU GODS AND ASK THEM TO HELP YOU IN YOUR CRUSADE TO DESTROY YANKEL SCHWARTZ, THE TRUE GOD OF THE JEWS
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You sound just like my Father. And that is not a bad thing.
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My day job is as a public librarian, and 99% of the time when people order "The Diary of Anne Frank" they don't get what they're expecting to get. That's because the title of the published diary is "The Diary of a Young Girl," with Anne Frank credited as the author. "The Diary of Anne Frank" was the title of the STAGE PLAY adapted from the diary by Frances Goodrich and Albert Hackett. Complicating the issue, there WERE a few publications of the diary under the title "The Diary of Anne Frank," but they aren't standard. Let confusion reign!
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Both sides are fakakked and have done some rotten things. I was just in Israel. I have Israeli friends and family, many of them in the armed forces. I think the conflict should be ended like Alexander the Great ended the Gordian knot. Ban nations altogether. That would work.
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and rule it easily. that way no more terrorism and no more conflict
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honestly those people are asking for it anyway
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Hello from a fellow MOT.
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Great read. Very informative and well documented.
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Lots of half-truths, propaganda and chest-thumping being written in this Talk-Back. But the way I see it, there's plenty of blame to go around. Three subsets (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) of humanity exhibiting some very human traits: selfishness, intolerance, xenophobia, aggression, etc. And all of them willing to do evil (expulsion, repression, murder) to others, all in the name of God. That's just wrong.
How about just sharing the "Holy Land" without anyone dominating anyone else (i.e. no states catering to a particular race or ethnicity)? I know this is merely a dream at this time, but perhaps it is something to work for?
Don't mean to offend any adherents of the Abrahamic Religions, but (to paraphrase Bart Simpson) you keep harping on all the stupid little differences, but ignoring all of the big stupid similarities.
Now, can we get back to arguing Movie Related matters, like whether Star Trek XI sucked or not? :-)
C.S. -
Isreal does target civilians. Always has. Not officially, but they do it. I've seen it. Shooting old women in the street etc, just for kicks. The soldiers are given free reign & they take full advantage of it. The truth is, they're both as bad as each other. Fucking idiots on both sides.
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Sep 25, 2009 11:39:24 PM CDT
They also murdered a western journalist not so long ago..
by the dark shite
Precisely for filming them shooting people for kicks. He caught them out & they shot the poor fucker to cover it up, but it leaked out.
I wish I could remember his name,because it might seem like I'm talking shit, when actually I have no alliegance or preference.I think they're both a bunch of cunts.
It wasn't so long ago though. That was captured on Camera too, so I'm sure it's out there on the interwebnet thingy somehwere. Of course, nothing was done about it, because the U.S wants Isreal's money.
As I said before, fucking idiots on both sides. -
Yes, because a family in hiding wouldn't try to do anything "normal" like take photos of family members to try to help keep the kids at ease. That would never happen.
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Any account of Israel in the last hundred years that doesn't even mention Rockefeller is missing the point.
You can talk all day and all night the way you do i'm sure, but if you're a serious historian you have to follow the money, dude. so, if the truth reigns supreme, why don't you mention Rockefeller in your next string of bullshit. and Churchill for that matter, and the money. -
hurndall or hartnell. The israel govtment is turning into a dictatorship. 2 weeks ago the un released a report into the recent war. nobody came out of that withany degree of credibility. israel's reaction was unbelievable. not only did theycritise the un, the report but also the former head of war crimes tribunal in the hague, richard gallstone. a man who has been hailed by everyone as being beyond reproach. they kicked out all the media and imposed a clamp down. i dont much like hizbollah either and they shot and killed anyone who spoke against them. they dont want peace either side. that is a damning inditement.
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At least Diox is honest, and doesn't mask his hatred behind verbose, dishonest, obfuscating posts. He keeps it simple and real.
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LOL! No, I'm not perfect, but I never commited democide, bulldozed homes with people in them, shot innocents either at close range or from gunships, never dropped DU bombs on civilians (I don't even have a DU bomb!), stopped whole populations from getting food and medicine, or worse.
Maybe Israel can take a page from my book.
I'm with Gwai Lo. I got nothing against the people of Israel. They should have peace. I'd even like to visit Israel someday, looks like a beautiful place, the way the commercials look.
But the government must change course. And it can for the better. Look, we are still the same Americans today as we were 5 years ago. Except today we're not killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. We changed our leadership and we have people who want to negotiate peace instead of instigating war. But we are still the same country, the same people. Just need to change your mindframe.
Try looking at the Palestinians humanely, treat them accordingly. You might inspire them to change their leadership too. Bomb them, kill them, take away their souls - no wonder you got Hezbollah and Hamas. But guess what? Even those groups have lightened up since Obama took office. There's your Hope and Change staring you in the face.
Have a nice day. -
BY BOMBING ALL THOSE SEMITES LIKE TERMITES! Ugh. You started out as an annoying catchphrase-starter, except none of them were worth a damn. Then you got political, which is fine, albeit annoying on a nerd website. Then you sucked up to One Note MacGee, aka DGDB. Then he left to start a website no one but the other writers read. Now you're just here, alone...
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when they ended and crushed the tamil tigers,namely they threw out all foreign journalists and clamped down on the international media. all foreign ngos were banned from the sri lanka. same thing in Iran also and of course burma. the best doc of the year is V burma. who ever made that is a hero. a real hero.
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TruthRules: Isreal may have withdrawn from Gaza, but keeps it still sealed off from the rest of the world, making it a de facto prison camp.
Many people, who fled but did not fight the formation Isreal were not allowed to return to their homes. Many folks were displaced to make room for Isreal.
Even to this day, non-Jews have a tougher time (National Geographic recently had an article on the hardships suffered by Arab Christians who live in the area, though to be fair, they are being squeezed by both Jews and Muslims).
And who is allowed to live in those West Bank settlements, any Isreali citizen, or only Isreali Jews?
I'm not saying Jews shouldn't have peace, or a safe place to live. I am saying a state devoted to one particular group is a fundamentally flawed notion. -
Sep 26, 2009 12:12:25 PM CDT
JOKESONYOU: AT LEAST YOU GOT THE SUBJECT LINE RIGHT
by bringingsexyback
You've been following my talkback adventures? I'm flattered. Except I've been here for years, beginning with a political talkback, of all places. You're free to skip my posts, they're the ones in caps.
DGDB is awesome, and I hope he returns, but I'm not wedded to anyone here like you seem to be to me.
You don't think AIBN is funny as fuck? What's the matter with you?
Back to the topic at hand though - what did I say that set you off so bad? Was it "Try looking at the Palestinians humanely"? I'll try to tone it down.
But I have a question for you. Do you think Anne Frank would condone you doing unto the Palestinians as the Nazis did unto her? What say you, Joke? -
What the fuck are you talking about? So suddenly I'm a Nazi, except I'm putting the Palestinians in death camps instead of the Jews? And I'm doing this because I like the Jews? And Anne Frank is going to make a moral choice on my actions? Are you saying that Israel and all who support it are akin to Nazis? Come back at me with something that makes sense.
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sudan too. except the media werent kicked out. ngo's were!
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maybe not you, but your tax money, and the people representing you. As an American citizen you are guilty of torture, murder, extortion, and many other horrific crimes. You blame "Israel" as a single force, and yet you, as an American, take no responsibility for Americas actions. Why is it that all Israeli citizens are tied together as one monolithic force in your mind while you are allowed to remain autonomous within the US?
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A quirky yong girl who decides to stop being jewish
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I don't. I think you missed where I said, "I got nothing against the people of Israel." If I did view Israeli society as monolithic in thought and unison in action with their military and government, considering all the atrocities perpetrated, I wouldn't have said that.
But could you pose a similar question to TruthRules and Diox and get the same answer? Doubtful.
But you raise an important point, Sonic. We all have too often take to looking at conflicts like sports games. Team vs. team. That's how innocent people get caught up. When Hezbollah or Hamas launches an offensive, it's ordinary, innocent Palestinians who get the retaliation. When Israel conducts a siege and prohibits food and medicine from getting in, Hezbollah fires missles at civilian targets.
When Mahmoud Ahmadinejad defies and threatens the world, it is Iran that is viewed as the enemy. But as we have seen this summer, the Iranian people and many in their government oppose his actions. They are the ones most brutalized by him.
It is unfortunate that we get caught up in viewing whole peoples as enemies. Like Diox did above, in saying Arab lives aren't worth much. How did he come to feel that way?
Is that how many Israelis view Palestinians? Yes. Is it how ALL Israelis view Palestinians? Hell fucking NO. Can we all, as human beings, someday move past such dangerous, limited thinking that leads to wanton violence and destruction? I don't think so, but I sure do hope so.
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what does that say about israel society.
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Actually, Israel is considered a "gay Mecca" in the middle east, with a huge gay cultural scene for both Jews and Arabs. The two who were murdered were murdered by the same type of fanatics that murder gays in America and elsewhere in the west. The question you should be asking yourself regarding middle eastern societies vis-á-vis gays is how they're treated in the other countries of the region. You will find that in most of them you either end up in prison or executed for being gay.
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AND HAS BEEN TRYING TO CRAWL UP HIS ARSE EVER SINCE. FUCKING HACK.
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I figured I'd wait for a bunch of hogwash to be printed together, rather than waste my time with each one individually. So, now, let truth reign supreme once again:
When some people like to b.s. and say that Israel is "the bad guy" because of the fact they can find a few examples of bad apples,
it's obvious to me that these people saying this stuff are full of vicious hatred rather than wanting to see the truth:
The reality is that at any given moment in time, including THIS VERY SECOND, there are TONS of Israelis and Jews who truly do want peace with the Palestinians and all the other neighbors in the area.
Meanwhile, the voices for peace amongst the Palestinians get quashed by the Palestinian leadership and there are very few
of them out there. Proof: Just go to any university and see how many Palestinians or Muslims publicly say they want peace.
Listen, since DAY ONE, there has been a VOW TO DESTROY ISRAEL, I repeat DESTROY, not "live in peace", not "share", not even "two states". The whole "two state" thing is only a RECENT development now that they see Israel is REAL.
When they thought they could annihilate the Jews in Israel, shortly after Hitler almost finished the job, then they thought "NO TWO-STATES, NO WAY- NOTHING FOR THOSE JEWS".
Is what I am saying so hard to prove? Absolutely not, you can look it up- look up the "Khartoum Conference" and the famous three NO'S the Arab world at the time said to Israel- no recognition of Israel, no negotiating, no peace.
Meanwhile, ALL THAT TIME, Israel DID and STILL wants peace, but it's pretty hard to make peace when your partner who is supposed to also want peace has a charter that vows for your destruction- yes, this was the charter of the PLO. And Hamas is not exactly into truly recognizing Israel either. Hopefully that will change soon.
Again, is this so hard to believe?
When 9-11 occurred, Palestinians were handing out candies in the street, of course the haters of Israel don't mention THIS regarding proof on tape and media, of which there is loads of tape.
But wait, we don't even need that proof, because there is even more clear proof of the kind of HATRED not just against Israel, but against anyone who is not like THEM, anyone who believes in ideas like freedom, democracy, women's rights, giving rights to gay people, letting people practice their religion regardless of their religion, all these kinds of things are things that DON'T exist very much in the Arab world.
By the way, I promise you that I do not hate Arabs, this is very much a problem of LEADERSHIP AND BRAINWASHING.
We are all born innocent children, but the problem is that in dictatorships and massively corrupt governments that make western corruption look like a joke, the people are BRAINWASHED. Palestinian children, for example, are brainwashed from birth in infinite ways to hate Israel.
Palestinian children are taught there is no such thing is Jewish history in Israel!!!! And this is just the tip of the iceberg, they are also taught all kinds of vicious lies to portray Israel as evil. This is NOT done in Israeli schools. Again, the proof is out there- there are MANY Israelis who are struggling to promote peace, and virtually EVERY Israeli thinks that the one or two fanatics in Israel are WRONG. If an Israeli does something wrong to a Palestinian, Israelis are QUICK TO CONDEMN IT. In fact, in Israel, the newspapers CONSTANTLY critisize the government for all kinds of things- this is GOOD, it keeps things running AT A HIGH LEVEL, this is democracy at work.
BUT WHERE IS THIS SELF-CRITICAL ANALYSIS AMONGST THE ARABS AND PALESTINIANS?
There was not a single MAJOR condemnation of 9-11 by any MAJOR Muslim group, there should have been MILLIONS Muslims marching in the streets CONDEMNING it. It's crazy, everyone thinks it's in vogue to MASSIVELY CRITISIZE the USA, Israel, and any other country that actually HAS freedom and allows you to protest, meanwhile what's going on in Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, that's all perfectly FINE. It's crazy. And it's obvious, to anyone who makes an effort to see the facts, the big picture.
Again, that's why I say, is Israel PERFECT? Of course not, but compared to how its neighbors have been treating it? Compared to what Europe allowed to happen to the Jews? It's amazing when certain countries whose soil is still soaked in Jewish blood think they have the moral right to tell ISRAEL what is the moral thing to do.
Again, Israel is TINY, it's less than 1% of the Middle-East, and it's the homeland of the Jewish people, always has been, even through thousands of years where foreign armies and nations attempted to invade and destroy, thinking they would wipe out the Jewish presence there forever.
They all FAILED to destroy the Jews. Maybe it's time to let those Jews live in peace in that 1% of land they call home.
And again, when the Palestinians truly want peace BESIDE Israel instead of wanting to DESTROY ISRAEL, this problem will be solved almost INSTANTLY.
I say "almost" because all that brainwashing that was done by Palestinian leadership to Palestinian children might take a little time to undo.
Again, the proof is right out there right now- go and try to find some Palestinians and a large group of Muslims who think Israel has a right to exist and that it's important to make true peace with Israel. (Real peace also means not flooding Israel with a million Palestinians so they can take over that way.) -
Germany has actually shown fantastic growth and proof that people can indeed change. Also, it's important to remember that the Arabs and Muslims used to be the leaders in math, science and culture, and in fact there used to the "Golden Age" in Spain for the Jewish people there when it was ruled by Muslims. So it's all proof that people are not evil, they are just TAUGHT it by evil LEADERSHIP. To quote Rocky IV: "Anyone...can change!!!!" - Rocky Balboa
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That I truly believe peace is possible, and that the Arabs, Muslims, and everyone and anyone else, CAN
indeed change. The key is freedom of information, not dictatorships. When people know the truth, they realize that war is NEVER a great option, and that there are better things to do. However, when they are brainwashed and controlled, then they can be made to think that war is GLORIOUS and GREAT. -
When I hear things like "everyone's equally responsible" I know once again that this comes from ignorance of the situation:
Selfishness?
Israel is 1% of the Middle East.
The Muslims and Arabs have 99% of it.
Israel allows ALL religions to practice in freedom, and allows all people to visit their holy sites in Israel.
Before Israel was reborn in 1948, this was not the case. Only since Israel was reborn, has there been freedom for ALL people to visit their holy sites, regardless of religion.
Intolerance:
Same story as above, women's rights, gays, all religions, all protected in Israel.
Good luck finding this in the surrounding countries.
Xenophobia:
Israel protects all religions, seeks peace with all its neighbors, and has people of all colors and religions represented in its Parliament. Good luck finding this in the nearby area outside Israel.
Aggression:
After being attacked without provocation several times, Israel STILL seeks peace with ALL its neighbors and has NEVER wanted anything even REMOTELY aggressive, has never started ANY war or provoked any war with its neighbors, it just wants to live in peace.
In fact, if the conflict was really just about "Palestinians", then how do you explain the attacks from the Arab countries against Israel all those times in the years BEFORE Israel had to go into those territories for self-defense?
How do you explain the attacks against Israel when Israel had ZERO "territories", all that time pre-1967? This is why I say this has nothing to do with wanting two states, it has to do with wanting the destruction of Israel, PERIOD.
Also, most Israelis are secular, they are not at all religious extremists. The majority of Israelis are SECULAR. The vast majority of them are not religious brainwashed freaks, just as most Europeans are not a majority of religious brainwashed freaks.
Remember also that Israel is TINY, surrounded by many enemies (at least they have peace with Egypt and Jordan), and so Israel is just looking to SURVIVE. And still, it's willing to have a two-state solution, even though if you saw how tiny Israel is, you probably would not want this for yourself if you lived there. But still, Israel would agree for a two-state solution, if the Palestinians really wanted peace rather than the destruction of Israel.
And remember, aside from it being the actual natural homeland of the Jewish people, the other raison d'etre for Israel is that there NEEDS to be a place for Jews to go to, as the majority of the world stood still while 6 million Jews were slaughtered. The Jews had no place to go, they weren't even allowed to go to their homeland.
So first, the Jews are not allowed to live IN Israel, then they are not allowed to live OUSTIDE Israel, and now again, many in the world don't want to let the Jews live IN Israel.
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Gorsh, V'Shael, y'all sure are smarter than them thar pro-Creation rednecks. Yowza.
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Quick footnote: Hollywood is marketing the title of a genuine tragedy but padding it with different content? Quite profane, quite disturbing. It's like re-inventing the Holocaust (a la ILSA) into a comic book serial. Count me out.
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and there is a book out about the man who founded it. that period was erased from irish history. the man, his party, and his views were pretty mainstream and were endorsed by the irish establishment. privatley tears were shed at the highest level when the nazi regime came crashing down at the end of the war in ireland,
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I will get the name of that book.
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WITH THE RISE IN NEO-NAZIS, HATE-CRIME, AND RIGHT WING POLITICS IN GERMANY AND EUROPE OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS, I'D SAY YOUR VIEWPOINT IS AS POINTLESS AND CUNTISH AS YOU ARE.
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ais irigh.
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TruthRules:
I do not consider my position either Ignorant or Hogwash, merely a judgement about right and wrong. I didn't say Isreal is the worst State around, but to think that it is without sin, is arrogant and foolish. Aggression, Xenophobia, Selfishness are all paths to the Dark Side, and ALL humans are susceptible to them. (And pointing out the sins of others does not absolve one's own, unless there is an aspect of Yom Kippur that I am unaware of). Unless, I missed it, you didn't answer my question about the Isreali settlements in the West Bank, i.e., are any they open to anyone or just Jews? Furthermore, I read elsewhere, that of the total population of Isreal and the Territories (Occupied, or whatever you want to call them) comes to little over half being Jews. Of the non-Jewish population, some are Isreali citizens, but most of them are not. My point being, that Isreal cannot exist as a Ethnic State (specifically a Jewish State) where one group dominates all others or is artificially maintained as the majority. If Isreal does not pursue the two state solution (which I am not a big fan of), then it has decades of *peaceful* assimilation of the non-Isreali population ahead of it. As a resident of the US, this is all quite abstract, unfortunate, and of course, sad. But if you all (Isreali, Arab, etc) cannot find a way out of your situation, please do not drag the US down with you. And part of that means to stop exploiting the memory of the Holocaust to stoke feelings of historic guilt and present day sympathy for the Isreali cause. I mean how many Holocaust movies do we need, anyway? (as an aside, I am personally tired of hearing about the Holocaust, Slavery, the treatment of Native Americans, etc. I don't approve of any of it, but lets learn from history, and move on).
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