Hey everyone. Capone in Chicago here.
I make no secret of the fact that Edward Norton has long been on my short list of great actors that I have long wanted to interview, pretty much from the first time I saw him in the Chicago-set PRIMAL FEAR opposite Richard Gere. Since then, he has continued to impress me with his talent and his commitment to making the best film possible, even if that occasionally means rewriting a screenplay or completely losing himself in a character to the point where he scares me on screen a little. From THE PEOPLE VS. LARRY FLYNT, AMERICAN HISTORY X, FIGHT CLUB, and ROUNDERS to THE SCORE, RED DRAGON, THE 25TH HOUR, THE ITALIAN JOB, and DOWN IN THE VALLEY, the man is consummate and intelligent force (he's a Yale grad) in front of the camera and someone who's not afraid to occasionally make fun of himself and his reputation as a perfectionist. See his recent cameo in THE INVENTION OF LYING or the parody he did on the Jimmy Kimmel show when THE INCREDIBLE HULK was released, and you'll see what I mean. Hell, even his failures are interesting.
His latest work, LEAVES OF GRASS (written and directed by Tim Blake Nelson), in which he plays twins, received high praise when it premiered at Toronto, and the jury is still out on whether he'll reprise his Hulk role either in a sequel or in THE AVENGERS feature.
But none of what I've just said really matters when it comes to this particular interview with Norton because we weren't put together to discuss acting at all. Norton is the producer of a documentary premiering on HBO Tuesday, November 3 called BY THE PEOPLE: THE ELECTION OF BARACK OBAMA, from director's Amy Rice and Alicia Sams, who began following Obama and his family when he was still just a junior senator from Illinois in 2006. But when rumblings of a presidential run began happening in 2007, they decided to stick with the rising political star that made a profound impact with a single speech at the Democratic National Convention in 2004. Norton did not sign onto as the film's producer late in the game; he has been a part of its making from Day One. Any while he makes no apologies about his liberal leanings, Norton's film isn't about celebrating Obama's presidential victim.
Much like THE WAR ROOM, the film digs deep into what makes up a campaign, mistakes and all, controversies and all. And you see a side to Obama and his team--from David Axelrod to the grassroots ground teams in each state who went door to door and made tens of thousands of calls to get people out to vote--that you've simply never seen. There are moments that show Obama at his most vulnerable--dealing with the blowback from the Rev. Wright scandal or his friendship with David Ayers or his grandmother's death just before election day--while also showing us such fascinating, behind-the-curtain details like debate prep to speech writing to issue forming to calling Hillary Clinton to concede her primary wins in Texas and Ohio. The directors' access is unbelievable, unprecedented, and unlike anything I've seen to date. This fantastic film ends on election day, so this isn't a film that celebrates Obama's accomplishments; it's one about the tireless work and maneuvering it took to get him where he is today.
I was asked in advance of the interview that I stick to talking just about BY THE PEOPLE during my conversation with Norton, but I couldn't resist sneaking in a few extra question in at the end that result in some interesting dance moves on Norton's part regarding his future dealings in the Marvel universe.
Enjoy me getting political with Edward Norton. I know how much you guys love politics on a film about movies!
Edward Norton: Hey man!
Capone: Wow, I thought there would be some sort of intermediary, but you just picked up the phone and called, didn't you.
EN: [laughs] Yeah, I'm like that.
Capone: First of all, I live in Chicago and just watching all of these things unfold again almost made me cry, it was really beautifully done.
EN: Yeah, I saw you were at “312” [area code] there.
Capone: Yeah. I guess the obvious first question is how far back is your involvement with the film and with the Obamas go?
EN: I met him first in the winter of 2005-06. I’m involved very heavily with an organization that is one of the biggest developers of affordable housing, a nonprofit affordable housing developer, and it’s an organization that has contributed a lot to developing housing policy. So we often will have sessions with new senators and stuff like that, and I helped orchestrate a meeting with him and his housing staff and this organization, so that was the first time I met him. Which was nice, because we got to engage on a subject that was interesting to both of us, and I think he was able to meet me in a context not having to do with wanting to make a film about him.
Around that same time, the two directors of this film had come to me and my producing partners with the idea of not doing a film about Obama per se, but more like chronicling his experiences as a freshman senator through his first term. Their idea was to do a political diary almost. They had been struck by his 2004 speech at the convention, like we all were, and I think the way that they put it, or at least the way I remember, was them saying “Look, this guy is definitely a new generational presence, more our age than our parents' age and definitely not a baby boomer, and you have this increasing apathy and disengagement from politics in younger people and maybe tracking his experiences would be an interesting way to look at politics through a more youthful prism.” And I really liked that. I thought it was a cool idea, because it was like “Let’s find out who Barack Obama is,” it was more “Let’s see what happens when a young person, that a lot of young people relate to and are drawn to, runs into the realities of politics and government.” So one of the directors, Amy Rice and I went down to meet with Robert Gibbs, who is his communications director, and then we met Barack to pitch this idea. And they never really said “Yes, let’s do it” whole hog, they understood the intention and they said “How would this work?” and we kind of said, “Well, let’s just start slow and see how it feels for you.” In the spring of 2006, we started occasionally interviewing staff and following him on trips and getting a feeling for the inside of his team, and then we made that trip to Africa with him. So we had this whole period where we were working on a documentary and loosely kept on following him in the senate, and then in the fall of 2006, we began to get an inkling that they were actually going to take a run at it and that’s when the whole thing shifted, very suddenly, into being an opportunity to track his campaign.
Capone: Was there ever a discussion about the level of access that you would get and then the follow-up being, was there a shift in the access that you were given initially as the election drew closer?
EN: One of the things that we did that was smart is we never pressed the point too hard. We never said, “We need a guarantee of X.” We always just day in and day out called them and said, “We would really like to be here and here is why.” We were perpetually reminding them that we were not the press. We weren’t looking to exploit anything that we got during the election. We vowed to them, we basically almost agreed legally to say that we wouldn’t release any of it until after the election was resolved. And I think once they had faith that we were genuinely archivists, that we were interested in it for the historical record and not going to affect the outcome of things in any way or try to take advantage of it, then I think they got progressively more trusting and comfortable with the idea that there was something inevitable historic component to his candidacy and that there would be something of value in having a record of that.
We were always pressing for more. We always wanted more, and there were obviously times they just wouldn’t let us, but if you look at the film I think you can see that they allowed us a pretty unprecedented amount of intimacy with a candidate as he’s actually going through it from time with his family and direct interviews with himself and Michelle as they were going through this, to letting us film debate preps and senior strategy sessions and stuff, and we were kind of pinching ourselves. [laughs] I think it was a constant navigation, but the way we anchored the film in more than just “Do we have access to Obama?” We talked about it like a pyramid where we would like to have as much intimacy with him as we can at the peak, but then on down from there obviously people like Gibbs and [David] Plouffe and Axelrod were very key figures in devising the ethos and strategy of the campaign, and so we wanted to get good time with them.
But then I think the thing that Amy and Alicia did so well was in sifting through the ground troops, they found such great characters in Ronnie Cho and Michael Blake and people like that who really, for me when I watch the film, those people embody what the film is about as much as anything else. Through them, you really get this portrait of young people participating in the democratic process and I think Ronnie, like Obama himself, is such the contemporary face of America in the way his story and the way he invests in the whole thing is, I think, the most moving part of it.
Capone: I agree. It is interesting, once I realized the structure of the film and how deep it was going into the process, I started to think ahead, like “I can’t wait to see how they cover the ‘greatest hits’ of the campaign so to speak.”
EN: Right.
Capone: The one thing I thought at the end, the only disappointment I had, was that there was absolutely no discussion of the vice presidential selection. Suddenly Joe Biden is just there. One day he isn’t and then the next day he is and I thought “I wonder if they were blocked from that whole spot.”
EN: It was funny, because we had some challenges. We were funding this thing ourselves and with some great private investors. We initially set out to make this very low burn six-year kind of diary type thing, and suddenly we were confronted with… You know, it costs a lot of money to follow a campaign everyday, and we had to be really strategic about what we chose to focus on and invest the time and limited budget that we had in. And then too, I think there were things like that that probably they just felt “We just aren’t tipping our hats on this. We are not going to let anybody inside certain inner-circle conversations.”
There are so many things you would love to know throughout all kinds of parts of it, but one of the things that is interesting to me about them is, he got that label “No-Drama Obama,” and that supposedly came from a talk that he gave to his senior staff saying “There will be none of that in this campaign,” and he has such a cool veneer in public, but when we peak around the curtain in this film and you see them in highs and lows, you realize that really is who these guys are. Axelrod in not James Carville. Right in the middle of the Jeremiah Wright thing, Alicia caught him coming off the door step really candid and impromptu, and if you were ever going to get a moment where you got some to sort of just let it fly and all he does is go “I never made her [Hilary Clinton] for someone who was going to raise the white flag. That’s not her gestalt.” You just marvel at what kind of even-keeled temperaments they had throughout it.
Capone: Actually just a couple of days before I watched this film, I saw a film called LABOR DAY that documents the same time period from the point of view of the Service Employees International Union who endorsed Obama, and it’s about their grassroots efforts, particularly in Iowa, so there’s actually a lot of the same footage there.
EN: Interesting. That sounds really cool. Nobody has picked it up?
Capone: It actually opens here this weekend in an independently run theater here, it’s not a chain. Speaking of other films, I’m wondering how much of an influence THE WAR ROOM was as sort of a template for what you guys were trying to do with BY THE PEOPLE.
EN: I think that it’s one of the standards in the this kind of filmmaking. There’s the one from the '60s, CAMPAIGN, and there’s THE WAR ROOM and I think the character of every campaign is different, but I definitely think that Amy and Alicia looked at that as… stylistically, I think they were definitely inclined towards a verite kind of experience that didn’t overtly comment on anything, and I think THE WAR ROOM is one of the best on that. But we found ourselves with an opportunity that they didn’t have, which was the ability to actually be near the candidate himself the whole time. And this is just the way it worked out, but we got a little more access above the level they had there, and we focused a little more below that level too. They really were in there with George Stephanopoulos and Carville, and we went up the chain and down the chain a little more, but I think that’s definitely one of the defining political campaign films.
Capone: You mentioned that they were going for a verite style, but in fact there are a few scenes where whoever is being filmed sees Amy or Alicia and acknowledges them, recognizes them, having seen them for months and years on end. And every once in a while, one of the directors will throw out a question during filming. Why did you decide to leave those sorts of things in?
EN: Some of them, I think, these were people who were aware of the cameras around them all of the time, so there’s no hiding it. You can’t pretend that you are a fly on the wall and they don’t know you are there. I actually think some of the time, those netted really interesting moments. It’s a very small moment, but I really like it, at one point coming through the lobby Alicia said to him “Have you had time to think about what’s happening to you?” He just says, “Not yet, but I will.” I think it’s such an interesting moment, because it’s like he’s aware of the magnitude of what is starting to be put on his shoulders, but it’s like there’s no time. To me, if there’s anything that characterizes the experience of a campaign, it’s that moment, there’s no time to pause for self-reflection. There’s no time to pause and think about the enormity that you are about to be the first African-American nominated for president. Do you know what I mean?” It’s just so wild.
Capone: Has the president seen the film?
EN: We have shown it to the Obamas and Axelrod and Plouffe and Gibbs and all of those guys before the inauguration, yeah.
Capone: That long ago? So this has been done for a while then.
EN: It was largely done then. We had agreed, since they gave us access to the family and things like that, we had agreed that we would run it by them, but they didn’t ask us for any changes.
Capone: I'm not surprised by that, although there is some swearing and drinking in there sometimes, but I don’t think it paints anyone in a bad light.
EN: No, also he commented that his favorite bits and the thing that made him emotional was Ronnie Cho and Mike Blake, and I think that he said to Amy, “I think you should have more of them and less of me.” [laughs] I think he kind of knew they were the real story in a way and of course they're not, but I do think that he knew that having some record of how this campaign took place from the inside and how people experienced it from the inside was worthwhile. And, we were tried to be very rigorous… We didn’t make the film to celebrate Obama, we made it to try to chronicle his campaign and of course the people we are following are on his side, when they get jubilant, it seems celebratory, but I think if you really look at the film, it’s fair to say that the film isn’t really commenting, it’s just chronicling their wild ride.
Capone: The funny thing that struck me about the movie was that over the years and over many campaigns, politicians are always trying to court the youth vote, and it’s funny that all it really took was someone who was about their age and knew how to use the internet and who knew a little something about how to work a college campus, that that’s what it took to really get them involved.
EN: Yes, absolutely. I think the genius of their use of social networking and all of that, I think it was a seismic shift in campaign strategy policy. I think no one will ever be able to ignore that kind of stuff again.
Capone: I guess I’ll have to let you go, but can I ask one question not related to this film?
EN: Sure.
Capone: Where are you with the future of either an AVENGERS film or another HULK film?
EN: I don't… Knowing you guys, you will probably have updates on that quicker than I will, so if you find out, call me! [Laughs] I actually don’t know. I’m not even sure deep inside the minds of Marvel how they are planning to string that stuff out, but I don’t think there is any if it is imminent, I don’t know.
Capone: Does it still hold interest for you, at least?
EN: Things like that to me are always completely dependent on what they make of it. You know what I mean? It’s like anything can be the crappy version of itself or the great version of itself and if it’s the great version of itself, then that’s one thing. If they don’t get it right, then I don’t know, then I think… A lot of it depends on what they come up with.
Capone: Sure. I had heard LEAVES OF GRASS got a great reception at Toronto, so congratulations on that. I can’t wait to see it. Even just the photos intrigue me.
EN: Thanks. You don’t ever come through New York or L.A. do you?
Capone: New York more than L.A., but neither that often.
EN: We want to run it for a few people, and we still haven’t gotten that set up yet. We are trying to get a little bit of an advance critic and fan-site word out on that, because I think it’s a very nervous and tentative time in the indie film-distribution business. Maybe I can get a PR person to reach out to you, so you can check it out.
Capone: I do a pretty aggressive screening program here in Chicago with both studio stuff and indie releases, so by all means have someone find me.
EN: Cool, will do. That’d be fun.
Capone: Okay, well thank you so much Edward for talking to me and good work on the film.
EN: Yeah sure, absolutely and thanks for covering the film.
Capone: Bye.
EN: Thank you, man. Bye.
-- Capone
capone@aintitcoolmail.com
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