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The Latest on THE PUNISHER Movie!

No where to go but up (from Dolph Lundgren's version) by Mr Bimble	Feb 14th, 2001 02:34:18 AM
Get a director who is interested in making a tough-as-nails movie and we should have a good one here. Although we also need someone who can play Frank. Hmmmm. Any thoughts?
It's been done, Harry :-) by ChrisKnight	Feb 14th, 2001 02:38:52 AM
"Dolph Lundgren is... THE PUNISHER!" (also starred Louis Gossett Jr. if memory serves) waaaaaay back in '90 or so. The Punisher (MINUS the black getup with skull... sheesh was it so hard to paint a skull on a t-shirt) versus the Yakuza, in the most forgettable superhero flick in the history of anything. More people actually saw Roger Corman's "Fantastic Four", if that's even possible.
Ken Wahl would make the best Punisher..... by Monkey_King	Feb 14th, 2001 02:42:34 AM
All the need to do is spin the film off into an HBO series after the first film. That way they could do 2 more fims when the show is on haitus. This guy was great on the 'defunct' Wiseguy show, he's be perfect as Frank Castle.
They stole the Skull insignia from the Phantom! by Bari Umenema	Feb 14th, 2001 02:50:14 AM
But I still like this character a lot. Ken Wahl would be good but with our luck they'll cast Travolta! By the way, the Dolph Lungren movie wasn't that bad, it was fun in a wacky kind of way, worth $1.50 at your local video store for a Friday night.
And the Punisher is....... by Mr Bimble	Feb 14th, 2001 03:05:45 AM
We need someone who can play a cold character. Has the 1000 yard stare of a cold blooded killer. Anyone out there into comic books shoudl check out the mini-series "Code of Honor". It's mainly about a plice officer working in the Marvel Universe, but it has a great take on the Punisher character as well. That and the "Punisher/Batman" crossover, both written by Chuck Dixon. Garth Ennis has a pretty good take on the character as well. As for the early 90's version, it just strayed to far from the character. Not that a film maker can't do some re-tooling of the mythos, it's just the substitutes made were so piss poor. In the comic book we have New York Mafia, a computer hacker sidekick, a van loaded with weapons, Frank working out of warehouses, and (most importantly IMO) Frank being ex-military. Instead they gave us the Yakuza, a rymeing poet, a standard tough guy cycle, Frank living in the sewers, and Frank being an ex-cop. Oh yeah, and WHERE'S THE SKULL SYMBOL? If a director wanted to make this more than your standard revenge flick, they're going to have to bring something more to the table. Like show what a lifetime of death and violence does to a person, how being trained to kill for one's country makes a person not the most able to fit into normal day society, etc. The film makers need to look down deep and find something meaningful in order for this movie to stand out. Believe me it's there. They just need to find it.
Like all superheroes with this kind of face (and there are loads by No.6	Feb 14th, 2001 04:12:56 AM
Nuff said.
they are really brave to have the guts to make another PUNISHER by mooncake	Feb 14th, 2001 04:23:06 AM
considering how horrible the 1st one was, they still have the guts to make another one?? this franchise is buried, digging it up from the grave is the dumbest idea. let the PUNISHER rest in peace, hell blame doulgh lundgren! PUNISHER 2 will flop big time just like spawn.
dolph lundgren by Andy_Christ	Feb 14th, 2001 04:52:42 AM
I don't think he's a terrible actor. I just think he is in a lot of terrible movies. Would I be correct in assuming careers like his are the result of people wanting big roles in small movies, rather than taking small roles in big ones?
Too Dark For 120 Min? by BoBaBrain	Feb 14th, 2001 05:04:29 AM
Without a decent look at his background, this could turn into DOOM the movie. How about twisting it into a Starship Troopers type of parody? Like, we haven't had enough self-referential, ironic movies of late...
crime and punishment by wookiehunter	Feb 14th, 2001 05:20:19 AM
The real shame was that the Dolph version was ever made in the first place , the new one should involve frank hunting down Lundgrenon the set of his latest straight to video debacle and exacting his , high fire powered revenge on that twit. Throwing in a couple extra grenades for "Masters of the Universe" as well
No Marvel Costumed Villians by themidnighter23	Feb 14th, 2001 05:48:37 AM
If they make this movie, and I hope they do, there should be NO costumed villians. If anything, Kingpin should be perfect as the main villian... or Archie. Whichever is good with me
As a concept...the Punisher...is crap. by Dave_F	Feb 14th, 2001 05:54:00 AM
The ONLY thing that makes him remotely interesting is the fact that he's a stone cold vigilante who operates...IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. Yeah, they've churned out plenty of adventures that have nothing to do with Daredevil or Spider-Man or the Kingpin, but they're all very standard Hollywood action movie stuff. Often substandard Hollywood action movie stuff. Why would I want to see a Hollywood adaptation of a character whose adventures are a substandard knock-off of Hollywood vigilante movies to begin with? I suppose they could have a little fun adapting Garth Ennis's recent turn, but even that was vacuous. It was Ennis doing "Preacher"-lite black humor, and it was fun, but also mostly forgettable. I say, save the Punisher as a villain/ally for Daredevil in maybe the second or third Daredevil movie. The character's not worth a starring role.
The original movie by Dalorin	Feb 14th, 2001 06:03:26 AM
I was (un?)fortunate enough to see the original The Punisher on video and it was a mixture of suckiness and humour (the point where Castle blindly stabs a man through a paper wall). My first exposure to The Punisher was actually the Capcom arcade game (which I thought was inestimably cool), so I'm fairly excited to see what can be done a big budget and some decent actors.
I come in peace......... by The Brain	Feb 14th, 2001 06:06:56 AM
.....and you go in pieces! God Bless you Dolph
Why shouldn't they use Punisher for a Spidey sequel instead.... by axelfoley	Feb 14th, 2001 06:11:10 AM
If there's a sequel for Spidey, I'd like to see The Punisher. That would be cool. I could just picture Tobey Maguire spouting funny one liners and witty wiseass remarks at him. I jest that we've all seen that shitty 1989 Dolph Lundgren movie, am I correct? If they do make another one, ok, but it shouldn't be so fucking low budget and cheesy ala it's predecessor.
I wanted that Archie book! lol by X-Girls	Feb 14th, 2001 06:23:28 AM
Hey, I wonder if they'll put the Punisher into yellow spandex for the film.
Punisher Movie by TechLord	Feb 14th, 2001 06:40:03 AM
I am actually unlucky enough to own a bootleg copy of the Dolph version that is uncut. It has more blood and gore than the old S.S. Experiment shlock nazi movie. Me and a couple of friends paid 20 bucks at a comic convention in Florida for this tape that was made from someone in the test screening theatre with a handheld. And what is up with all these animations with Harry BEING FUCKING NAKED???? Put on yout tent, dammit!!!
AWW HELL YEAH! ! ! I can't wait, but... by IAmLegolas	Feb 14th, 2001 06:54:10 AM
Hey isn't Michael France also the writer of CLIFFHANGER and GOLDEN EYE? Tell me why that is a good thing again and wasn't there a talkback once that said something to the effect that "Just because the script is killer, the that is movie that is made usually isn't?" Anyhow, even though I haven't collected comics for the past 8 years, The Punisher was always my favorite guy and I am psyched as hell that he is getting a second chance. Please be made as an independant film, it's not like they need CGI or something for his story to be told, and please be directed by someone like John Woo or Jim Jarmusch, who should end up re-writing the screenplay. I haven't a clue who should play Frank Castle, but Bruce Campbell wouldn't be my first choice. I love him to death and all but he just isn't right for that part. Please don't be anyone that is famous, make the actor an unknown! We don't need Ben Afleck or Bruce Willis. I will be keeping an eye on you, Artisian!
Tom Braidwood, the creepier of the Lone Gunmen from the X-Files, by IAmLegolas	Feb 14th, 2001 07:01:24 AM
Come to think of it, the Alien Bouny Hunter, also from The X-Files, Brian Thompson, would make a good Punisher... just don't let it be Christopher Lambert! =(
Russel Crowe by brody783	Feb 14th, 2001 07:10:49 AM
Ok now, he's way too overexposed as of late, but he's perfect for the role, he IS frank castle, and i've been thinking this since LA Confidential. if not him i nominate stephen dorff though i'm sure not many would agree with me on that one. as for a director, of course john woo would be the obvious choice but i'm sure there's someone even better i'm not thinking of, maybe the guy who directed Romper Stomper and Cherry Falls? I can't remember his name at the moment but he makes some no holes barred, balls to the wall flicks. Fincher is another obvious choice but he ain't gonna do it kids, it Artisan, we have think smaller.
another thing... by brody783	Feb 14th, 2001 07:13:46 AM
another thing! he should be a misfits fan, that way the skull insignia would be less contrived...just a thought, better than the skull standing for some former goverment agency he was in or some shit. MISFITS!
Don't know why people get their rocks off by SCOTT1458	Feb 14th, 2001 07:23:39 AM
on the Punisher. It's the same fucking charcter as THE SHADOW some 65-70 years ago....he even has his contemporary's logo too.
It's box office poison by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 07:27:22 AM
But Michael Madsen would be bang-on perfect. David Morse would be interesting too. And Cormy, the Punisher concept is not 'crap', it's just that it's so often poorly used. A serial killer who preys on criminals? As far as serial killer movies go, that's pretty interesting.
Too Bad James Gandolfini Is Kind Of Chunky. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 14th, 2001 07:34:32 AM
No pretty boys for THE PUNISHER. An athletic Gandolfini would be the guy and don't tell me he should be the gangster because you guys are supposed to have IMAGINATIONS. At least, I only recognize the existance of those of you with imaginations so what's the diff? Whoever said Russel Crowe is on the mark. Crowe is a throwback to the old kind of Hollywood star, a good looking guy for the women, but not pretty so we can still believe his characters and also not pretty for women who like men instead of boys and other women (I'm big on the truth this morning for some reason). Also, I have to admire Cormorant's courage for dissing the Punisher although I disagree with him. There's no such thing as a realistic superhero and never will be, but Punisher is the closest. When done right, PUNISHER can be the best of comics. When done wrong, which is often the case, he exists to make fans feel like they are enjoying grown up entertainment instead of funny books.
SICK SICK SICK by DearGodMySpleen	Feb 14th, 2001 07:39:07 AM
I've just lost all faith in that which is good and holy...For God's sake, Harry, put a bra on, sir! And where the hell are those arrows coming from??! Just remember to keep his skin moist until we can drag him back to the ocean.
Oh Yeah, Michael France. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 14th, 2001 07:40:52 AM
I'll take Harry's word about his unproduced superhero scripts. I'm not going to search 'em out and read 'em because I hate reading scripts. I do know that France got his start as a script reader and basically stole CLIFFHANGER from a mountain climber but he'd probably say he adapted it, like he's adapting the comics. I'll just read some ESSENTIAL FANTASTIC FOUR and THE INCREDIBLE HULK. For that matter, some PUNISHER comics,too. Haven't read the new ones. I'm trying to prove Ennis, Ellis and Bendis are all actually Beavis.
ALEC BALDWIN..... by Uncle Jay	Feb 14th, 2001 07:56:03 AM
Alec Baldwin is the bst choice for "The Punisher". I hope they are faithful to the comic book this time! They have to cover, 'Nam, Family slaughtered in Central Park, Bruno Costa crime family, Jigsaw and for Christ's sake the famed skull on his shirt!!
Punisher movie by Helldiver	Feb 14th, 2001 08:00:27 AM
I'm really takin' this one with a whole lotta grains of salt, but good luck, if they have a proper script, which doesn't have to exsist in a Marvel Universe.. make Frank a government assassin, they turn on him, he grabs a truck load o' high techy stuff, including the jumpsuit and hands out justice out of the end of a gun.. But not to miss a chance- AGAIN, WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS WHEN WE HAVE NO WORD ON DOC SAVAGE, WHO IS (LET US BE HONEST) THE SOURCE FOR THIS AND 99 % OF ALL COMIC HEROES ???? DIVER DOWN !!!!!!
ChrisKnight, your knowledege of obscure cinema is truly amazing. by wash	Feb 14th, 2001 08:22:08 AM
You should try to pursue "Terminator 2", another rare gem.
Ang Lee's THE INCREDIBLE HULK... Now... Nora Ephron's THE PUNISH by Roguewriter	Feb 14th, 2001 08:28:53 AM
Hollywood is just too fucked up for words anymore, man. I was alarmed when Bryan Singer took on THE X-MEN, but lo and behold, he made a magical little film. But to see a big name like Ang Lee helming a HULK movie? And the idea that the world is craving another PUNISHER flick? Ye gads, they ain't no intelligent life left here, Mr. Scott...
I always pictured Michael Parre as the Punisher by FluffyMetalFun	Feb 14th, 2001 08:40:19 AM
Ever since they announced development of the movie that would end up as Dolf's horrible Punisher movie, I had always envisioned Michael Parre from Streets of Fire as the Punisher.
Bandwagon by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 08:47:15 AM
I didn't want to say this, for fear I was jumping on an it-boy bandwagon, but how about Benicio Del Toro as the Punisher? I bet the man could be really really scary, if he wanted to. I still like David Morse though.* And for all you knee jerk reactionaries who start groaning about another comic book movie, how, other than loose ties to source material, is this the same as X-men or Batman? A man is enveloped by his dark side as he gets revenge on those who murdered his family...well, that just screams cape and tights, doesn't it? Oh yeah, it was also the premise behind The Godfather. Morons. This owes more to Death Wish than it does to Daredevil. But no, you see 'comic book' and your cultural elitist alert goes off. Do you feel better about yourself by immediately jumping on an idea that others may find fun or interesting. It's nice to feel superior, isn't it?* Oh yeah, and a Guy Ritchie film.
How can you beat Dolph? by Wino-Forever	Feb 14th, 2001 09:23:00 AM
"You were supposed to meet me here...four...hours...ago" The Lundgren version will never be topped! Replacing Microchip with a drunken, homeless actor who speaks in rhyme? Genius! Dolph's pencilled-in five o'clock shadow? Genius! That movie was a towering filmic achievement. Anyone who says otherwise is huffing paint.
Gary Coleman as The Punisher! by KingOfCrows	Feb 14th, 2001 09:29:13 AM
Personally, I believe Gary Cloeman would have made a more suitable Punisher than Dolph Lundgren. At least Cloeman has some talent.
Gary Coleman as The Punisher! by KingOfCrows	Feb 14th, 2001 09:29:35 AM
Personally, I believe Gary Coleman would have made a more suitable Punisher than Dolph Lundgren. At least Cloeman has some talent.
Who... by microchip	Feb 14th, 2001 09:30:28 AM
For years now we have been discussing who would be perfect to play The PUNISHER. Everything from Bruce Wills to, yes, Steven Segal have been mentioned in the past. How about HENRY ROLLINS? Not only can he act, he has the true look of a Dillon-esque type PUNISHER. Check him out here: http://www.theendofsilence.com /images/pub1.jpg Remember, the PUNISHER is a man of action, not words. MICHAEL FRANCE has limited writing credits. I hope this doesn
And the Punisher is... by Lime_Ricky	Feb 14th, 2001 09:32:28 AM
Having been a long time Punisher fanatic, I've put alot of thought into this.(I know I need a life), The only one to play the Punisher is Joe Penny.
The unofficial word.. by Otter	Feb 14th, 2001 09:54:11 AM
is that Tom Berenger is being considered for the role of Frank Castle, which is perfect.
The Punisher's Origins by Elliot_Kane	Feb 14th, 2001 10:10:56 AM
The inspiration for the character of The Punisher was actually a series of books by Don Pendleton about ex- Vietnam vet Mack Bolan, who declared war on criminals and called himself 'The Executioner.' Like Frank, Bolan's family are killed by the Mafia, and he decides to bring the concept of jungle warfare to an urban environment. The first ever issue of The Punisher even carries a forward by Pendleton. So, yes, the character is a blatant rip-off, but he works, so why not?
Tom as Frank by Castle	Feb 14th, 2001 10:23:40 AM
Tom Berenger would be a great pick. Platoon, you dont need an Arnold or Sly, that was the eighties where that was popular, now instead of muscles, we want solid acting ability. Oh yeah, and special effects GOTTA HAVE SPECIAL EFFECTS! Oh wait, it didnt work for Wild Wild West...SCREW SPECIAL EFFECTS.
Tom Beringer? by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 10:44:51 AM
Oh yeah, that'll avoid sending this movie on the path to direct-to-video, 'cause everybody I know saw Cutaway and absolutely loved it. If we're going to poison the movie's box office chances with our casting, I still think David Morse is a far far better choice. Benicio would still be cool though.
watch OZ by HannibalSmith	Feb 14th, 2001 10:53:00 AM
Just watch OZ, and you'll see the man who needs to be Frank, Chuck Zito!!! Alec Baldwin, Tom Berenger, and Bruce Campbell would all piss themselves in fear if they had to face Mr. Zito in a dark alley. Just try to deny it!
There are so many character on t.v. derivative of this guy. by superninja	Feb 14th, 2001 11:05:11 AM
The Punisher doesn't need to be made, but that's coming from mostly a non-fan. Sentinel in the 90s and all those 80s t.v. shows like VIPER and the one with Ken Wahl.
David Morse for Doc Savage. by superninja	Feb 14th, 2001 11:09:31 AM
That is all.
Agree/disagree w/ Cormorant. by superninja	Feb 14th, 2001 11:15:35 AM
I agree the concept is overdone. If they could find a clever and fresh way to approach the character, then maybe it would be worth a shot. But, for the most part, I think this character concept has been done TO DEATH in cinema to the point where the character will either appear as a 1) cliche or 2) parody of himself. He just doesn't have a distinguished enough personality, or even origin for that matter to warrant an entire film. I can name two similar films in recent years right off the bat: Shaft and Payback. Payback was pretty much Punisher w/ a sense of humor.
The perfect Punisher is...... by ChezKing	Feb 14th, 2001 11:19:36 AM
Danny Devito!! That's right! slick his hair back throw on a skull t-shirt and bang there's your Punisher!
How about Michael Biehn of the original Terminator movie. I thin by axelfoley	Feb 14th, 2001 11:20:46 AM

Is this necessary? by moviet00l	Feb 14th, 2001 11:26:48 AM
I hate to agree with anyone named "three bag enema," but I don't see the need in making a Punisher movie. The Punisher is interesting only because he's such an anti-hero in the context of the Marvel universe. He's not an icon like Spider-Man or the X-Men. On the big screen he's just another gun-slinging bad-ass idiot who's been "pushed too far." What's the hook?
Michael Pare? Ken Wahl? Bruce Campbell? You might as well say Wi by clubberlang	Feb 14th, 2001 11:43:54 AM
Tom Berenger from his roles in "Platoon", "Sniper" and "the Substitute" (as well as those motor oil commercials) looks to be a right-on choice. Oh... and Dolph's Punisher did have a skull. It was on his face!. His sculpted stubble and the grey bags under his eyes casted a skull on his face, best seen when he was driving his motorcycle in the sewers in very quick glimpses.
They should... by crimsonrage	Feb 14th, 2001 11:50:18 AM
...set the flick in the 80's to get over the whole Vietnam problem. Also, if you want to see an ultraviolent short "Punisher" flick, go to http://turn.to/suicide and click on "The Punisher". Roger Avary (Oscar-winning co-writer of "Pulp Fiction") has requested a copy.
actually, the Punisher isn't necessarily just another 'badass' by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 12:03:24 PM
He could be THE badass. Think Death Wish meets Hannibal. The action hero part isn't so much the kicker as the 'serial killer who preys on criminals' hook. Dirty Harry gone completely bezerk. Sure, if they just go the army-guy-vs.-badguys route, well...I saw Commando a while ago and didn't think much of it. But there can be an interesting hook here, if you think about it.
Jake the Mus as The Punisher by Chow Yun Phat	Feb 14th, 2001 12:37:44 PM
Bruce Campbell!? I love the guy but I think Temuera Morrison would make a fine Frank Castle. He's a scrappy looking lad and can act (an afterthought in most of today's films). I don't know who the hell could play the Kinpin though. Wait a second, I've got it! Somebody get me King Kong Bundy's agent on the phone immediately!
Oh god not another one by Chris_Fougere	Feb 14th, 2001 12:50:26 PM
I had the misfortune of seeing Dolph's version again recently as my wife went through a bad movie craze. Ya know, its better to see it on TV with commercials cuz those breaks give you time to steel your stomache for what's coming next. I'm usually pretty gung ho when it comes to Comic book films but this news does nothing for me. Even a genius like Garth Ennis can only do so much with the character and since he's not writing the script there's not much hope.
It would kick ass if Garth Ennis would write this... N/T by Insane Tiki	Feb 14th, 2001 01:03:32 PM

The Punisher's home movies? by superninja	Feb 14th, 2001 02:05:32 PM
Someone with too much access to automatic weapons, and not enough lighting. I wouldn't recommend that short to my pet chinchilla.
(Blank) IS The Punisher! by TheAnswerIsDoom	Feb 14th, 2001 02:29:29 PM
The only man to play Frank is Gene Simmons. Face it, the guy pretty much already has the gear. An axe guitar? Christ, the guys perfect. And he has Franks pissed off personality. Gene is probably mad about Peter Criss quitting...which means less money for the "KISS Army Foundation". He's probably always pissed at Ace Frehly since Ace is always drunk and punching women and trashing hotel rooms. Gene has rage, murderous rage! I say the Demon for The Punisher!
Yet more casting opinions by MaxCalifornia.	Feb 14th, 2001 02:54:48 PM
Ahh I knew Russell Crowe would be mentioned early on...but something about him just isn't quite right for playing Frank. Whoever suggested Peter Stormare, that is either insane or genius, I'm not sure which. He could be incredibly bad-ass in the right role. Anyway, yup, they'll have to update the Punisher's history a little bit...being a Nam vet means you'll have to use at least a fortysomething actor, which no studio will want to do for a teen-appeal potential franchise, so make him a Gulf war vet, or hey even Bosnia (actually, yikes, that may make it a bit TOO young and we'll end up with James van der Beek as Frank). So, I dunno, Brendan Fraser? Just throwing that name out to see if anyone digs it. As for the villain, why hasn't anyone mentioned Jigsaw? He was Frank's nemesis ever since he got his own comic. Gandolfini could play him (yeah, unimaginative, I know, but its what he does best). Throw in Philip Seymour Hoffman or Pruitt Taylor Vince as Microchip and we're there as long as the director takes it at least semi-seriously (i.e. doesn't saddle Frank with a 12 year old black sidekick and throws in a love interest). SO I dunno, Tony Scott, whoever. No John Woo please, I don't want to see Frank flying through the air in slo-mo with doves all around him.
Punisher & Destroyer by Elliot_Kane	Feb 14th, 2001 02:56:46 PM
I don't see much point in making a Punisher film if it is going to be just another killfest. That would seem tired and unoriginal to a modern cinema audience, as would Punisher's origin story. Too many cliches would kill the film stone dead. The Vietnam war was too long ago to give us a 'current' hero, and setting the action in the recent past would only serve to detach the audience from what is happening onscreen. Castle would have to be ex-Black Ops to allow for the kind of combat experience the Punisher requires in order to be plausible. How about: Betrayed by his bosses who are secretly in league with a drug lord he is sent after, Castle's team is wiped out with him as the only survivor. Castle, rather than seek revenge as such, is struck by a revelation - America's most dangerous enemies are not the ones outside her borders, but the ones who are eating her alive from within. The ones the cops can't touch and the politicians won't. Punisher vows to bring a new kind of justice to America. This setup allows for powerful social commentary on the state of the American criminal justice system and how badly it betrays the interests of the American people. With a bit of luck the British government (who are just as bad) will get the point too. I'd say that was a film worth making. *** A new Destroyer film, with a decent cast and proper modern special effects? Oh, yes! That is a really good idea. The glorious House Of Sinanju deserves far better than it got last time out.
'...and until GOD answers the guilty will be PUNISHED. by Redeemer	Feb 14th, 2001 03:28:58 PM
I think Tom Berenger would be a damn fine choice for the PUNISHER. Has anyone seen the character he plays in Platoon? The guys a complete psychopath and has show some traits of Frank Castle. The first movie was ok. It could have been done better with a different director. Oh yeah Chuck Zito who is a pretty good actor on OZ would be a HORRIBLE choice for the Punisher. He just doesn't look or sound the part as far as I'm conscerned. Bruce Cambell and Danny Devito....thats just plain fucking stupid!
Premise by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 03:48:11 PM
A former Navy Seal, NY Cop Frank Castligone (Benicio Del Toro) loves his job. Still haunted by a tragic and bloody mission during his tour in the Gulf, patrolling the streets of NY is a nice change of pace, and Castligone is earning a reputation as an even-handed, honest cop. He has a gorgeous wife and three beautiful daughters to come home to at night, and a wisecracking partner (LL Cool J)to ride along with. However, when he uncovers that many of his fellow officers are in league with a local crime lord (Gabriel Byrne and his right-hand man, Vinnie Jones) and Castligone refuses to play ball, his family is massacred during a central park outing. Three days after the funeral, LL goes by Castligone's house to visit, and finds the place in shambles, with messages written on the wall in ink, chalk, and blood. Castligone is nowhere to be found. Three months later, criminals and crooked cops start turning up dead. Not all that original, well here are the twists...Castle is absolutely fucking insane, no mercy, no visible trace of humanity. He lives to kill, thirsts for the blood, and nothing, absolutely nothing will stop him. And as LL realizes it's his old partner who's doing the killing and tries to track him down, is LL trying to save his partner...or himself? Directed by Guy Ritchie.
Oh yeah...I saw that movie, it's called: by superninja	Feb 14th, 2001 03:55:23 PM
SPAWN. Same basic premise - betrayal, combat skills, venegance... Punisher does not need to be made. He is a one-note character, a PLOT DEVICE. It reminds me of the silly concept of making a Superman/Lobo movie.
Eh, What's Up Doc (Savage)? by Village Idiot	Feb 14th, 2001 04:04:56 PM
I'd have to agree that The Punisher isn't exactly a movie that's screaming to be made. Doc Savage, on the other hand, would be fun; but it would have to be done carefully to avoid another The Phantom/The Shadow debacle.
ray liotta! he deserves it after that 'hannibal' fiasco! by tommy5tone	Feb 14th, 2001 04:22:55 PM
ray liotta stars, ringo lam directs. i'm tommy five-tone and i'm back from the dead, chilling on the beach down at club med.
wrong by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 04:40:25 PM
Punisher is not a one-note character. He is often used as a one-note character, but just because most have chosen to ignore most of the promise behind him does not mean the character has no depth. If anything, The Punisher is one of the more film-friendly properties in comic books. Are you saying that there's more depth in Daredevil? Another movie I wouldn't mind seeing, but a blind lawyer who puts on redtights and goes skipping over rooftops at night is an interesting concept, but I wouldn't exactly call it deep. The Punisher storyline is very similar to Batman...it's just a different approach, and one that's slightly more grounded.
R I P PUNISHER by stesh	Feb 14th, 2001 05:07:55 PM
if ever there was a comic book hero to leave in the past frank castle fits the mould. dont get me wrong I bought the comics in the eighties and had my fingers crossed when dolph enlisted but the project has had its day. I challenge tim burton and clooney to see me wrong.
Frank Castle on the big screen? Only if it's in the Daredevil mo by vroom socko	Feb 14th, 2001 06:16:14 PM
In my eye, the best Punisher stories are ones that feature DD in some capacity or other. The best way to make this a movie would be to have Daredevil be hunting for the Punisher, only to be forced into a situation where they need to work together. It sounds like a cliche', I know, but it works. It has the potential to illustrate the difference between vengence (Punisher) and justice (Daredevil.) This sort of story is always pertinent. Just look at Action Comics 775 or Marvel Knights.
Ray Liotta Is A Good Idea, 5Tone. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 14th, 2001 06:44:27 PM
But not Christian Bale, please. I don't want to be watching THE PUNISHER and saying, "I could kick the Punisher's ass."
I'm not a Christian Bale fan by JonQuixote	Feb 14th, 2001 07:37:24 PM
but he did look pretty badass in American Psycho. I didn't like the movie, though I thought they did a good job adapting the wretched book, and Bale was pretty convincing. Of course, something tells me that you're no stranger to Naked Chainsawing, so you were probably unimpressed, and if you can kick his ass, more power too you. I'd pay $8 to see it...he annoyed the hell out of me in Shaft (but what didn't?)
Two Words: ELIAS and KOTEAS by O'Brien	Feb 14th, 2001 08:58:55 PM
Unquestionably a great fucking actor, looks the role, and anyone who's seen his films for Egoyan and/or THIN RED LINE knows that he can play intense/brooding/creepy. Elias is also the rare actor who seems equally comfortable in Artisan-type art films AND Godawful schlock (TNMT, CYBORG 2, etc.), and let's face it, folks, a PUNISHER movie could go either way. Not to mention he pulled off stuntwork in the TURTLES flick and in CYBORG 2 (also starring Angelina Jolie, by the way), lest anyone doubt he can kick ass. He'd be game, approach the role seriously, and probably come mush cheaper than the suddenly hot Benicio Del Toro. Personally, there's no one I'd rather see play Frank Castle than the Toughest Actor Alive, Michael Madsen. But casting Madsen as the lead in your movie pretty much guarantees a straight-to-video destiny. Can you believe Madsen turned down the opportunity to play Vincent Vega? Does Madsen stare at the ceiling at night, see Travolta's pretty face, and make tearful death oaths through grit teeth? Madsen is definitely a guy who should be doing big theatrical films, the guy has depth, he just seems to have given up doing anything other than squinting and shooting people. Too bad about Rollins. He woulda' been cool too. Tom Braidwood would make a good Microchip, as would Maury Chaykin, Pruitt Taylor Vince would clearly be best. Elias Koteas and Pruitt Taylor Vince in a comic book adaptation... that would be choice. I hope the producers take this one seriously and aren't just jerking off. Last thing: the original PUNISHER was cool for just about one reason = Jeroen Krabbe!!! Yeah!!!
Please God don't get Sly to do it! by DeSandman	Feb 14th, 2001 09:00:19 PM
Please don't have Sylvester Stallone play the Punisher. I can just here him now, "Yo, you are about to be punished." "Yo, I'm going to blow your brains out now"
How about... by Arcaneman	Feb 14th, 2001 09:58:14 PM
Instead of a Punisher movie, how about a Punisher First Person Shooter game? Or even a Third Person Shooter, like Tomb Raider? That would kick ass!!!
"Come on man, you borin' me. . ." by Sith Lord Jesus	Feb 15th, 2001 12:58:19 AM
A virtual cookie to whoever gets the reference. Hint: it's from another comic book. A MUCH better one. Anyway, a Punisher movie is a dumb idea. The whole concept is by this time way too cliche: "They raped his dog. . .they noogied his family. . .now he's going to blow up New York." Yawn. Boooring. Do something else.
Your quote is from 'Hitman' by Elliot_Kane	Feb 15th, 2001 02:49:02 AM
and is spoken by Natt The Hat when Tommy says Natt should leave him to deal with his own problems. Hitman is indeed much better than The Punisher, and would probably translate pretty well onto the big screen too. I don't think anything quite like it has ever been done. * The only way the Punisher could work on film, as I wrote above, is with a lot of changes. Hitman would work virtually as written. * I agree with the poster who said that Punisher is no worse a character than Daredevil. It is true that Punisher has had some good stories and some absolute turkeys (The whole angelic powers thing), but Daredevil is only any good when playing off other characters - particularly Elektra. She has ten times the personality he does. *** Superninja - about the Superman/Lobo thing. Luthor is completely overused, and Superman has the worst rogues gallery in comic history. Any new Superman film has to avoid audiences shouting "Oh God, not him again!" at the screen, so the bad guy pretty much has to be Brainiac or Lobo. Either is good for me.
Wade by BoBaBrain	Feb 15th, 2001 03:30:56 AM
Any news on a Deadpool movie. He's got The Punisher's whoop-ass factor with Spidey's sass-mouth ability.
No dice, Elliot_Kane! by Sith Lord Jesus	Feb 15th, 2001 05:55:09 AM
Intersting guess, though. Another hint: it's a DC comic that, while rather well-known, might not make all that good a flick. Anyway, I think that Electra would make a far better movie then Punisher. Especially the "Electra Assasin" storyline done several years back that was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz? Oh yes indeedy, that would look VERY pretty up on the screen and have 10x the story any Punisher film would have. However, like the DC comic I was referring to above, it is a bit dated and would either need to be set in the past or substantially rewritten in parts. Hmmm. . .
I got the quote wrong? Darn! by Elliot_Kane	Feb 15th, 2001 08:03:27 AM
I totally agree with SLJ about Elektra though. She would make for a better film than over 90% of Marvel's other characters. With the exception of Illyana/Magik (stupidly killed and even more stupidly replaced) she is probably the best female character they have. Diamondback comes third on my list, if you were wondering. Top 3 Marvel guys would be Captain America (even though the current series sucks), Wolverine and Spidey. They all have strong and well drawn personalities, which cannot always be said of comics characters. * SLJ - Hitman was the only bell rung by that quote. I am going to have to admit defeat. Sorry. * George Clooney as The Punisher?!? Er, no. Clooney cannot do hard, as he proved in Batman. Eyes that should have been ice said,"I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you" instead. Punisher should be a scary guy. We need a tough looking Italian-American actor to play Frank Castle (Born Castigliani), but failing that tough is better than a superficial likeness. John Travolta would be a far better choice. Similar look, and the man can do scary.
Vinnie Jones by TigOlBitties	Feb 15th, 2001 09:13:54 AM
Get rid of the accent and there's your Punisher, he was the ultimate hard ass in Lock Stock and Snatch. Harry is fat.
Russell Crowe as the Punisher by SilentBob X	Feb 15th, 2001 09:38:24 AM
Russell Crowe!! He'd be perfect for the part. Think about it. As long Dolph Lundgren's not in it, I'm there.
Superman's Rogues Gallery ain't half bad these days. by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 10:55:19 AM
Luthor is a classic villain, whether he's overused or not. In fact, I would say he and the Joker are the two most easily identified by the public-at-large. The animated series rounded out Superman's nemeses a bit, and they're not as stupid as they used to be: Darkseid, Braniac, Parasite, Livewire and Metallo (who definitely reminds me of Steve McQueen). Also, in the current continutity, I would like to see the Silver Banshee used in the new JLA cartoon. I still think the Punisher is shite. The fact is, if this character had such promise, how come the body of work on him is poor overall? Why do most people remember him as a Spidey or DD villain? Keep in mind, I'm not a fan of Vietnam themes or the Mafia (which has been done to death in the 90s, btw), and those probably influence my opinion of the Punisher character.
MICHAEL MADSEN! by Uncapie	Feb 15th, 2001 11:44:33 AM
He's got the look and he can act. Just keep your ears covered.
OK, I was sloppy by Elliot_Kane	Feb 15th, 2001 11:49:38 AM
What I should have said is that Supes has the worst Rogues Gallery of any major long-established hero. Batman, Spidey, Captain America etc all have a good few villains that are known and loved (or hated) by a large number of comics fans, even fans who do not read their books. Luthor could hardly avoid being known as he has reached the point of absolute media saturation. Anyone who has ever watched or seen anything Supes related are familiar with Clark, Lois and Lex. * Superninja, I know what you mean about the whole vigilante/war thing being done to death. I hadn't read Punisher's adventures in years, but Garth Ennis is one of my favourite writers, and I could not resist. Punisher done as black comedy works where Punisher done seriously would not any more. His origins are set too far in the past and his reference points too alien for most modern comics readers. The problem with a character who never grows beyond their origins. Having said that, the Punisher/Captain America team up of a few years ago was one of the best mini series I ever read. I think it was called 'Blood & Glory.' * OK, I admit I haven't re-read Dark Knight Returns in a while. I'll have to dig it out again. *** OK folks, a challenge: if you could make a film about any hero(es) you liked, who would top your list? Who would translate best onto film in terms of spectacle and entertainment value? I would go for Illyana Rasputin/Magik, with Neron (from DC's Underworld Unleashed) as the bad guy. Over to you...
George Clooney Would Be The Perfect IRON MAN. The Best Punisher by Buzz Maverik	Feb 15th, 2001 12:02:37 PM
1) Russell Crowe -- simply because he can do it, he'd be right for it and realistically in Hollywood (there's an oxymoron for ya) you want the biggest star you can get. 2)Ray Liotta. 3)Elias Kotese -- an undervalued actor. If De Niro ever makes a movie where he has a son, Bob Jr. has to be played by Kotese. 4)Vinnie Jones -- the suggestion is nuts because mostly the guy it a footballer and probably can't do accents. But he does have the perfect look, attitude and build.
Elliot_Kane by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 12:10:33 PM
I would do Captain America and She-Hulk featuring Nick Fury, Crossbones and the Red Skull. It's actually an idea for a mini I have, but that's it.
Oh, and the really cool Mephisto mini from the 80s. by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 12:15:17 PM
That would make a really cool t.v. miniseries, and it spans the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Thor and Silver Surfer. Mephisto is probably my most favorite Marvel villain of all time. I also like Kang the Conquerer vs the Avengers.
Dolph may have been The Punisher but you all need to think about by The 967	Feb 15th, 2001 12:49:01 PM
Being an avid collector of The Punisher comic books (i even have the short series where the Punisher actually was black.) BUT BACK TO TOPIC: I've seen names from Bruce Cambell, to Vin Diesel, to Micheal Madsen, to Dolph..... think about this boys, Clancy Brown, Micheal Wincott, Joesph or Ralph Finnes (a younger punisher), Nic Cage, Ted Bennett, Gary Oldman, all would be different and still kick major ass!!! think about it, even the less bulky actors could still be bad-asses, like leon in the professional........ i just hope that he has the costume and the van instead of what happened in the 91 version.
Why the Punisher doesn't need a costume. by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 01:13:22 PM
Costumes have a purpose for the most part. What is the Punisher's reason? He's not trying to hide his identity. He doesn't need it for armor purposes. His little belt sure doesn't seem to be scaring anyone. Batman uses his to inspire fear, Captain America as a symbol, Spider-Man to hide his identity. Who cares if the Punisher has a costume or not? It affects nothing in regards to his characterization. Nic Cage as the Punisher would be a joke -- there's nothing scary about him at all. Crazy, yes, scary, no. I guess if you have to make a Punisher movie, try to think of someone who would make you pee your pants if they appeared at the end of an alleyway one night. At least Liotta has a real sense of menace about him -- and he's italian.
Bruce Campbell, Nuff' Said by strech69	Feb 15th, 2001 01:31:54 PM
They outta let old Bruce Campbell try out for the spot, hes sort of got the look, and since this movie probly wont be an 'A' movie, give it to a 'B' actor.
Costumes by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 01:35:25 PM
I agree, the Punisher doesn't need a costume. The crap movie got the look pretty close to right, though it wouldn't have killed them to throw a skull on the back of the jacket.
Comic movies by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 01:44:36 PM
I'd get most excited about a Captain America movie, especially if it was set during WWII...or at least a good part of it. Cap vs. The Red Skull is simple enough, as Cap has to foil ol'Red's sinister Nazi plot in two centuries. A Big Budget, an A list cast (I see Matthew McCoughnehy as Cap and Ralph Fiennes as Red Skull, Clint Eastwood as Nick Fury and Ashley Judd as Sharon Carter) and a Fourth of July weekend opening, combined with the teaser trailer I outlined here a few months back would combine for some awesome hype around this movie. Put a gun to Spielberg's head and make him direct it too!
Barring that, Iron Man would be pretty cool too. by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 01:49:08 PM
Thinking James Bond meets Batman, alcoholic, womanizing shallow playboy Tony Stark (George Clooney is PERFECT) must don experimental armor in order to prevent stolen technology he invented from being used by the forces of AIM (led by Morgan Freeman's Justin Hammer) in their such and such plot. Unfortunately, the Titanium Man (Vin Diesel) has other plans!
Something about Iron-Man by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 02:36:04 PM
as a stand-alone character bores me to tears. If they REALLY made it character-driven, maybe. My fear is that it's all going to be about the suit. A.I.M. aside, I don't think he has a very strong supporting cast. I would wrap it up in a government conspiracy story Stark Technologies and corporate espionage with revelations about his father's past.
I hope some studio exec is reading these by Elliot_Kane	Feb 15th, 2001 02:44:25 PM
because you guys have come up with some great movie ideas. Just to keep the ball rolling though: Captain America & Batman team up to prevent Ras Al Ghul & The Red Skull from taking over the world. With Talia Al Ghul & Diamondback. * Buzz - you are right about Clooney as Iron Man. Good casting. * Superninja - there is no point in The Punisher wearing a costume, sure, but it LOOKS cool. Love him or hate him, Punisher has one of the best costumes is comics. I THINK the big white skull is actually to give his enemies a target so they don't shoot at his exposed head, rather like Batman and his yellow bat symbol. Can anyone confirm this?
Cap Casting by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 03:42:16 PM
Well, here's my cast based on my partially completed script: Captain America - Aaron Eckhart. Betsy Ross - Bridget Fonda. Col. Fletcher - Tom Selleck. Red Skull - Rufus Sewell.
Supporting Cast by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 03:49:35 PM
I don't think a supporting cast is essential for a character's interest level: Batman, especially in the movies, has a pretty thin cast. Alfred and Commissioner Gordon, both of who barely factored into the first two films, which were the best. While Tony doesn't have the best support crew, Cap doesn't have much either, unless you drag SHIELD or the Avengers into the picture, which you could just as easily do with Iron Man. I think Iron Man is a very cinematic property, and really like the idea of playing Tony Stark as an asshole. Drinks, fucks, screws over other companies, makes money, bored...kind of a Thomas Crowne thing, only assholified even further. Then he does some bad thing, and has to redeem himself, and discovers he loves doing it. But hey, if he bores you, he bores you. I'd be excited about the flick though.*** And Kane, yup Punisher's Skull hides kevlar and the idea is that it draws the fire. That's what they say about Batman too, but really he just has the yellow circle 'cause DC discovered you can't trademark a Bat.
Isn't Betsy Ross the Hulk's Girlfriend?? by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 03:53:08 PM
When In The Company Of Men came out, one of my first reactions to Aaron Eckhardt was the he'd make a great Captain America. 'Still prefer McConaughey though, even if I'm not too sure as to how his name is spelled.
JonQuixote by superninja	Feb 15th, 2001 04:07:36 PM
That's when I first noticed Eckhart as well. Betsy Ross is a supporting character from way back who was a redheaded agent that always flirted with Steve/Cap when he used to do his Batman impersonation while operating from an army base w/Bucky. In my story, she's more like Agent 13 (more cynical than bitchy) and Betsy Ross is her code name.
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING! by Sith Lord Jesus	Feb 15th, 2001 04:13:08 PM
We have a winner in st_buggering! And I'm shocked that he's the only one who got it. Don't they teach classical literature in schools anymore? So this is where my tax dollars are going. Kids today, man I tell you. . .
Anyway, as I said before, screw Punisher. by Sith Lord Jesus	Feb 15th, 2001 04:22:53 PM
He's an awful subject for a movie, bigpackagemax's crack-fueled blatherings aside. Bring Captain America to the big screen, goddammit! With Oliver Stone or M. Night Shyamalan directing and IL&M doing the SFX it WOULD rock the hiz-ouse. A big-budget CA extravaganza is the LEAST that should be done to atone for the 1992 atrocity. The most that should be done is to make the new film and then have everyone involved with the first one taken out and shot.
Thanks JonQuixote by Elliot_Kane	Feb 15th, 2001 04:31:34 PM
for confirming the reason for The Punisher's skull costume. I really wasn't sure. *** The more I think about it, the more I would like to see Talia Al Ghul meet Rachel Leighton (Diamondback). Rachel gained a whole new set of ethics for love of Cap, but cannot win him; Talia has already won Batman, if only she could surrender her principles. Both are in seemingly hopeless situations. There should certainly be some kind of sisterly bond between them. Could be the start of a new trend: crossovers between Marvel & DC starring minor characters rather than just the big guns all the time.
I'd just like to say... by X-Girls	Feb 15th, 2001 04:58:52 PM
could everyone quit jacking off to Russell Crowe? He could not play the **ing Punisher, and better yet, why the ** would he??
Betsy by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 05:24:15 PM
I'm pretty sure Betsy Ross is also the Hulk's girlfriend. But whatever. I'm also going to take this opportunity to reiterate the need for a proper, 70's themed Power Man and Iron Fist movie. Owen Wilson and Taye Diggs (or Michael Clark Duncan) as our heroes, Angela Bassett cameos as Misty Knight, Cage's mentor in the PI game, Ryan O'Neal as the corporate baddy who whacked Iron Fist's parents, Keenan Wayans as drug-pusher turned assasin Chemistro, David Carridine as the mysterious asian crime lord responsible for it ALL, and Warwick Davis as the original character 'Tripod', a big hatted pimp named for the, uh, unusual dimensions of one of his appendages. Barry Sonnenfeld can direct after Quentin Tarentino punches up my script.
In Like Metallo by Village Idiot	Feb 15th, 2001 05:49:32 PM
Sorry to come from outer space with an esoteric comment just for Superninja, but John Corbin, aka Metallo, on the animated series may look a bit like Steve McQueen, but he is a DEAD RINGER for James Coburn, circa the Derek Flint movie era. Look at that hair, the narrow face, especially the lips, and tell me that isn't James Coburn. It's HIM dammit!
hey Sleazy G by vroom socko	Feb 15th, 2001 07:40:11 PM
The name of Misty Knight's partner is Colleen Wing. Together they were KnightWing Investigations, years before Dick Grayson took that name, mind you. As to who would play her in a movie, I'd say Neve Campbell. Oh, and G, there's an opening in the Screaming Retina Crew if you're interested in joining.
Neve Campbell would be awesome by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 08:24:44 PM
as Colleen Wing...hell, I'd cast her as Cage if she asked me nicely (or properly). And I still like Taye Diggs as Cage...the man is so straight-laced, he'd play well against my laid-back naive Owen Wilson Iron Fist, and he just seems perfect for the semi-zany movie that's coming soon to theatres near you in my perfect world!
Oh my dad... by Jesus	Feb 15th, 2001 09:13:47 PM
Dolph Lungdren is THE PUNISHER. And thats that.
explanation of the Screaming Retina thing. by vroom socko	Feb 15th, 2001 09:19:39 PM
First off, the crew is a reference to the source of my user ID. Basically, the Screaming Retina crew is a bunch of space pirates from the pages of Evan Dorkin's comic Hectic Planet. Their leader is, of corse, Vroom Socko. As it pertains to the Talkbacks, the Screaming Retina Crew is basically me giving both recognition to and semi organisation for those talkbackers who I think make a difference here, either by being inciteful, informative, or just plain funny as hell. I only recently started recruiting in full force. So far the members are me, Buzz Maverik, Cormorant, JonQuixote, and Sleazy G. If anyone wants to join, just elevate your talkbacks above the level of "Organic webshooters sux" and such. If anyone wants to accuse me of being an elitist asshole, my e-mail is vroomsocko@hotmail.com. Oh, and G, Ms. Wing did have a cybernetic arm, and also packed a Katana sword. Badass.
Almost forgot. by vroom socko	Feb 15th, 2001 09:21:22 PM
I forgot to mention that Harry is, of course, a member of the Screaming Retinas.
Perfect PUNISHER!... by Bry-Guy	Feb 15th, 2001 10:12:33 PM
RUSSELL CROWE!!!!!!!!!!!!! got anybody better?
KnightWing by JonQuixote	Feb 15th, 2001 10:25:42 PM
Misty Knight had the bionic arm, Colleen Wing had the Katana blade. Not that it matters too much, in my movie one of them ain't gonna get to see the end credits!
5tone's casting call (superhero edition) by tommy5tone	Feb 15th, 2001 10:25:47 PM
the punisher = ray liotta. black panther = wesley snipes/omar epps. captain america = james van der beek (he's young, so he'll be good for a few sequels. and he's so gosh-darned earnest! it'd work, i tells ya!). the fantastic four = bill pullman (mr fantastic), bridget fonda (invisible girl), paul walker (human torch), bruce willis (thing - cameo performance, then just the voice). power man = ll cool j. iron fist = trey parker (this could work, i think! i was watching 'orgazmo' the other night and trey was doing his own martial arts. he might need a few cool camera angle to make him look truly kickass, but he's certainly got the right look and the skills). morbius = michael wincott. shang-chi = robin shou/russell wong. ghost rider = johnny depp. nick fury = kurt russell. daredevil = thomas jane. wonder woman = amanda peet. batman (year one) = jim caviezel. superman = ben affleck/brendan fraser. bruce banner/hulk = gary sinise. and just for the hell of it, because i'm on a roll: flash gordon = matthew mcmconaughey. buck rogers = vince vaughn. red sonja = franka potente. i'm tommy five-tone and i'm entitled to my opinion, dammit!
VINCE VAUGHN as the PUNISHER!!! by LUNGROCKET	Feb 15th, 2001 11:41:22 PM
if he bulks up a bit....hes tall and can play menacing...watch CLAY PIGIONS....he'd be right on the money.
Hahaha...Van Der Beek as Cap? by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 12:34:08 AM
His melon would look so outsized in a skull cap. Please. People rank on the Cap character for being good-two-shoes, but the whole point of a movie is to prove you wrong-o! He has an extremely strong moral center -- he's not a Tootsie Roll, he's a badass with morals. I love Angela Bassett, but she's too old for Misty, and Taye Diggs is too young and pretty. And Wesley Snipes for Black Panther? HA! That should go to Djimon Honsou who is #1, HUGE, and #2 can act, and #3 is an actual african besides. I know Snipes has the rights to T'Challa's story, but he is soooo wrong for the part. This isn't "Coming to America", it's the story of an african king that has to fit in with the modern world.
Here's My WATCHMEN Cast Again... by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2001 12:35:20 AM
Comedian=Dennis Farina; Nite Owl= Kevin Kline; Dr. Manhattan=Val Kilmer('cause like Jon Quixote said, no emotion); Ozymandius=Tom Selleck(aging pretty boy hero type; they'll never see it coming);Silk Specre=Rene Russo.
Village_Idiot by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 12:36:23 AM
You're right about James Coburn, my bad. But don't let that make anyone think I don't know my Betsy Ross!
Oh, Yeah, And John Malkovitch For Rorshach. Not That It Matters by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2001 12:37:45 AM
...Nicolas Cage is up for every single one of these characters anyway.
"A badass with morals"?!? by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 04:11:18 AM
It has to be said Superninja, you have a rare turn of phrase. I'm still laughing at Nic Cage and you come up with this now? That doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you, though. Most 'badass' characters come across as incredibly insecure people who are out to prove something either to themselves or to the world. They are driven to become 'badasses' by their own inadequacies (Deadpool as obvious example). I do not believe this is true of Cap. Steve Rogers believes in America and its ideals with messianic zeal. Because of that perfect belief he has no fears, insecurities or need for self-aggrandisement. He is fully shielded by his faith. Actually that's pretty creepy now I come to think about it. Cap has basically created his own definition of God as Uncle Sam. Can anyone logically refute this, or do I have a point here?
Misty and Cap by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 06:43:35 AM
Angela Bassett isn't too old for Misty...maybe if you're going for a direct carboncopy of the comic book on the screen, but who wants that...I mean, CHRISTMAS, it's Power Man and Iron Fist!!! I picked Bassett 'cause I saw her as the elder matron PI who takes the young and tempermental Cage under her wing.***And Cap doesn't fanatically believe in America, but he does so in the ideals which make (or should make) America great. Cap's been screwed around by/seen enough problems with America to know that it ain't perfect. But it can be, and that's what he fights for. Just 'cause he represents what is good doesn't mean he blindly ignores the bad, so he's not scary. At least, not in that way. And I don't know if I'd call him a badass, at least not without using a very loose definition of that word. Which isn't to say that he isn't tough, which isn't to say that he doesn't have edge, but a badass?
Asia Carerra had an operation? by Village Idiot	Feb 16th, 2001 09:12:44 AM
My god, is she ok?
Punisher & Cap by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 09:26:08 AM
Everybody knows that The Punisher isn't entirely normal, but then again many of the other heroes have serious mental or emotional problems too. The Punishers are a little more anitsocial, granted, but as The Joker pointed out in Killing Joke, normal people do not dress up as giant bats. We all know Batman is seriously disturbed, but I have to admit I never thought Cap was until last night. OK, he has problems dealing with emotional and relationship issues. Every time a young woman gets too close there is a sudden cooling. One moment he is telling Diamondback "I want to help you achieve your life goals and have you help me with mine," which is, let's face it, almost a proposal, but he never follows up and is perfectly happy to allow the relationship to drift apart. Most heroes are emotionally dysfunctional though. Goes with the territory. But the whole 'my God is the American Dream' thing goes way beyond dysfunctional. I can understand believing in your country and being proud of it - that's normal - but the ideals his country holds dear are Cap's religion, and that ain't right. The kind of strength of belief and general tolerance Cap exhibits is unique to the True Believer in any given religion - the one who always tries to be a living example to others yet doesn't attempt to force their views on them, believing that they too are God's children. Yet Cap does not seem to be a member of any faith. Superninja, with your vast knowledge of Cap can you logic me out of this one, please? I am too close to proving Cap is even more insane than Punisher for my liking. Favourite male character or not, the logic is becoming inexorable.
Salma Hayek as Dejah Thoris? by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 09:33:34 AM
Interesting choice. Tars Tarkas would have to be CGI though. How good is Harry Connick Jnr with a sword anyway? He'd have to be absolutely fantastic to make a convincing John Carter.
Cap by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 09:56:00 AM
What's wrong with Cap's ideals serving as a de-facto religion? The same goes for Superman too. The ideals Cap holds aren't exclusively American, but they are, more or less, along the lines of the principles found within the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Does Cap have problems with emotional issues that pertain to his heroism? Well, yeah...but he pretty much got his heart ripped out by that Bernie chick who couldn't deal with his actionhero lifestyle, not to mention that he spent most of his resurrected life believing his soulmate burned to death. And of course, he did love Bucky (in a non-sexual way, I maintain), who also got blown to smithereens. If you're gonna be with Cap, you're gonna risk getting whacked by Flag Smasher at least a couple times a year...so since to Cap his duty/job is the most important thing to him (and can you blame him?), he's learned to keep people at a distance, for their safety and for his own emotional protection. There is nothing inherently disfunctional about living for your ideals.
Warlord of Mars by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 09:59:19 AM
Now the only Martian Tales I ever picked up was Chessmen of Mars, which didn't have a lot to do with John Carter, so maybe I'm missing something, but in today's day and age, wouldn't a film adaption of this material make Battlefield Earth look like The Godfather? Not that I'd complain about Salma Hayek in any sort of slave-girl/pulp novel outfit.
Wing by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 10:00:28 AM
and if Colleen Wing was Chinese (which I can't remember her being drawn as), then I nominate China Chow!
notes on Wing, and an invite to Superninja. by vroom socko	Feb 16th, 2001 10:20:34 AM
I hate to burst your bubble, Uncle Fucka, but Colleen Wing's dad was only half Japanese. Wing herself looked Caucasian, thus revalidating my casting of Neve. And as to Sleazy G's nomination, Congradulations go out to Superninja for breaking up the boys club. Welcome to the Screaming Retinas, Superninja.
A good point JonQuixote. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 10:26:53 AM
If everyone followed Cap's ideals the world would be a better place. That is not in doubt. Your summation of the reasons for Caps' emotional problems was very good too. However, it is neither of these things that worry me. Cap volunteered for the super soldier experiments to serve his country in time of war. Many people have done similar things in the past, and many doubtless will again in the future. This, again, is normal human behaviour. Cap believes in right and wrong, good and evil. Normal again. Every culture throughout history has given its own definitions of those concepts, and its people have for the most part believed them. Cap follows the ethics and morals of his time, which are drawn from - and rely heavily on - the Judeo-Christian religious base. As a man of his time with strong moral and ethical principles, the belief in God would naturally follow. From that belief would flow the confidence and strength of conviction necessary for a man like Cap to exist. Take God out of the equation... You see what I'm saying here? The whole root of Cap's belief system would - or should - collapse. Either Cap is just a very quiet believer, or he is hopelessly insane. I would much prefer to believe the former, but I see no evidence for it.
Most deserving badass who needs a movie... by Chris_Fougere	Feb 16th, 2001 10:36:15 AM
has to be Jesse Custer, without a doubt. If only the powers that be see fit to bless us fanboys with the oft-rumored Preacher film.
Cap characterization actually has a really solid history. by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 10:36:56 AM
Cap is Batman with a heavy dose of Superman. Although idealistic like Superman, he keeps people at arm's length like Batman. It's pretty clear why Batman does this, and I think it's the same for Cap -- this bit of characterization was heavily drawn on when he was ressurected in the Avengers. Rick Jones wants to be the new Bucky, and Cap freaks out when he puts on the costume because he can't bear to live through another death that he may not be able to prevent. I don't think it's quite as deliberate as Batman. Sometimes I view Cap as being sort of emotionally stunted. Not an idiot, mind you, but emotionally immature, with lots of unexplored potential. This is a guy who grew up frail and sickly and whose alcoholic father left him and his mother to fend for themselves during the Depression, as his mother worked herself into an early grave. This feeling of helplessness was the catalyst for him becoming Captain America. People he loves die around him, namely Bucky and Sharon, whose deaths he really never got over. To me, this is a great explanation for his emotional detachment, just as it is for Batman. He is driven to try to change society for the better, although their methods are different. If anyone stands in the way (friend/girlfriend), they will be left behind until something profound changes in the character, but that would be like Bats settling down and getting married -- won't happen. There is another aspect to Cap's personality that has on been touched on briefly, but that I find very interesting. Cap is a geek, in that way that we all are here at AICN, diving into these fantasy worlds created by comics, film and television. He's an artist, and Cormorant will tell you there is a specific issue of the Avengers where he's reading Tolkien, and he tells one of his teammates that sometimes he feels more at home with Gods and Mutants than with normal people. This is a fanboy whose fantasy came true. He had a brilliant mind trapped in a frail body, and then he volunteered for the super-soldier experiment and it all changed. He never has felt "normal".***Elliot...Cap is non-denominational, and they've been very careful to not make him appear to be any one religion. He stands for the ideals of what makes America a great place: freedom, justice, democracy, tolerance and compassion. He fights for a utopia that he knows will never exist, but he's determined to change the world one person at a time. Cap is an incredibly stubborn character, and I think that's what gives him so much credibility that as the world has changed, he has refused to. I'm glad the writers haven't budged on this. I discount that stupid hack-job version of him from Avengers Reborn.
The Main Reason I Like JOHN CARTER WARLORD OF MARS Better Than B by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2001 10:39:20 AM
...is that unlike a certain Mr. L. Ron Hubbard, Edgar Rice Burroughs didn't bilk an innocent black magick practicing rocket scientist out of his life savings, steal the rocket scientist's girl, then tell his followers years later that he was never involved with black magick but was only undercover for the U.S. government stopping the sex cult and saving the girl whom he later married. See, real life is even weirder than BATTLEFIELD or MARS.
More on John Carter by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 10:42:24 AM
Er... What Sleazy_G said basically. You're looking at sword fighting, airship combat, strange alien science and weaponry, huge and horrible monsters (including some of the good guys), more sword fighting, love, hate, rivalry and revenge, honour and treachery and lots more sword fighting. Burroughs wrote a lot of books, but the eleven set on Mars are amongst his finest. Tarzan is only more famous because of the impossibility of recreating Burroughs' Mars on screen up to now. How many people even know there are 24 Tarzan novels, let alone have read them all?
Thanks for the nom. by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 11:06:26 AM
I'm already a member of the League of @$$hole superheroes, or something like that. But you know, with the Screaming Retinas on my resume, I'm sure to go much farther!
Thanks Superninja by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 11:16:53 AM
Your Cap summation certainly helps. I know why Marvel don't want him to be part of any faith or denomination, but George Orwell once wrote that a good story requires "suspension of disbelief." Cap has always been one of my favourite characters because he fills that criterion. Or at least, I always thought he did. He acts and reacts like a 'real' person, and as you say the consistency of characterisation has been very good, despite the occasional slip. As a dreamer living out his dream, as you suggest, he would be more scared of losing it than he ever would of losing his life. He would be constantly driven to live up to the image of everything Captain America SHOULD be by this insecurity, and as a consequence... Yep! That'll work. Driven to excel by fears and insecurities he becomes just like the rest of us. Completely sane! Or at least normal. *** I must admit, I can see Batman marrying, but only someone who can share his life completely. Someone equally driven. Someone who understands that 'Bruce Wayne' is only a mask. I think he will marry Talia eventually and she will be kidnapped and mindwiped by her daddy, leading to lots of wonderful plotting and complications. Even James Bond got married once! Surely Batman isn't a bigger loser at long term relationships than Bond?
If Batman gets married, I'll eat my shoe. by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 11:37:12 AM
He's been engaged before to a nun. Well, maybe not a shoe, but a Hot Pocket. And she'll be tortured/die anyway. Might be interesting if she went mental in a Two-Face sort of way. They kill off Harvey in the comics, and several months later, Batman's wife is disfigured in a terrible accident that splits her personality as Two-Face suddenly resurfaces. Only it's not Two-Face it's HIS WIFE!!!! I still think Bats and WW should shack up for awhile. It would be like Season 2 of Moonlighting except w/ costumes.
I don't understand your point Elliot by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 11:54:28 AM
First off, I wonder about your taking 'God' out of the equasion. I'm afraid I don't understand why we have to do that. Are you hinting at the religious problems Cap would have hanging around the likes of Thor? You mused a lot about wondering if Cap was insane, without any real justification for insanity. Why is it not right that his ideals are his religion? Aren't ideals the centrepoint of most religions?*And realistically, Cap would probably subscribe to some sort of Judeo-Christian beliefs. I mean, the US is very, very Christian, and often puritanically so, and for Cap to grow up in 20's 30's USA, it is logical that his family would have belonged to a denomination of some kind. However, given Cap's experience, tolerance, and open-mindedness, it's probably safe to say that he's agnostic. He believes, but he's not particularly religious in an organized manner, placing one 'faith' before another.* I also see Cap as a sort of geek, but maybe not in a Harry Knowles (or Jon Quixote or Superninja) way. Remember 'Truth or Dare', the Madonna Documentary, where Kevin Costner came up and said her show was 'neat', and she started gagging when he left. Cap would probably say her show was 'neat' (even though he blushed like a schoolgirl throughout it). Cap's the kind of guy who always crosses at the corner, prefers Disney to Tarantino, and drives within 5miles of the speed limit, barring emergencies.*** The most poingant image of Cap I ever read (though it was a loooong time ago) was when, I believe, the Masters of Evil trashed the Avengers Mansion, and Cap discovered that the few momentos he had of his family were destroyed in the process, and broke down. The man is not insane, he's just suffered a lot for his ideals.
JonQuixote by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 12:02:59 PM
I remember that very issue, in fact, there's a compendium out that I bought recently. That was one hell of a storyline -- probably one of my all-time favorites for the Avengers. Cap's definitely not insane, but can appear too idealistic at times, just like Superman. It can appear to make him weak or brainwashed, although in most cases he comes through it with his ideals strengthened, much like the recent Superman Action Comics story. It's what makes me return to the character. As far as Cap being a geek, I think he's more of a geek than a square, which is what you described. Like Batman, he's not as comfortable being Steve Rogers as he is Captain America. He prefers a world of heightened reality to one were he has to just be a man and deal with everyday life. It hasn't been explored much, but I prefer that characterization to him just being a square. He is a square, but by default because he just doesn't know what to do with himself because he holds all aspects of his life to the standards of Captain America.
Not an Elseworlds, Not a dream, Batman did get married by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 12:08:10 PM
To Talia. The Graphic Novel "Son of the Demon" has Batman teaming up with Ra's Al Ghul to fight a baddie named Qayin (or something like that). In the process, he marries Talia and knocks her up. But she later fakes a miscarriage and dumps his ass because a) She can't stand his masculine patronizing attitude towards her once she becomes 'his bitch', b) She realizes that having dependants limits his effectiveness, and besides, they're living in a dream world if they think that relationship would work c) He's going to have a lot of explaining to do taking the daughter of one of the world's worst badguys to the JLA Christmas Party d) The writer of this piece of shit story is an A-class moron who I'm sure most of the DC Editorial Team wishes was never born.*** The answer of course is e) all of the above. So not only was (is?) Batman married, but he has a kid, who was dumped off at Metropolis Orphanage like last week's tampon by Talia. Batman's a husband AND a father, and a deadbeat dad to boot, since Mr. Billionaire Bruce Wayne probably hasn't paid a nickle towards the bat-mite's upbringing, though I suppose it would help if he knew the little tyke existed (some World Class Detective, huh?).
Wonder Woman shacking up with Batman!?! by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 12:12:42 PM
You're trying to get the people at DC to have a fit, aren't you Superninja? Be honest now.
Geeks and Squares by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 12:18:13 PM
That makes sense, Superninja, though I guess it all depends on your definition of the terms. I can't see Cap rushing to download the LOTR trailer, even if he is a big fan of the book, or having a screaming debate about webshooters. Maybe I'm synonomizing 'geek' with 'fanboy' though.* If you mean 'geek' as a point of pride, I am who I am and it's not what you are, type thing, then I'll completely agree.*One of my personal takes on Cap is that he's a Clippers fan. The most pathetic franchise in the history of pro-sport would attract the loyalties of one such as Cap, who can't help but root for the underdog and would valiantly cheer them on through thick and thin.
I'm quite Serious, Elliot. by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 12:19:39 PM
In recent issues of JLA, WW had Bats booted from the team. He's about, oh, 200x more interesting than Aquaman, and they have that Maddie/David vibe that would juice up the team dynamic. They are opposites, but it would be fun to see if they could reach a middle ground (most likely not). Especially now that Clark is trying to get Bruce to come back to the team, it would be an interesting angle for him to try to regain her trust and end up finding himself attracted to her. In fact, in recent issues of WW (she's in Gotham, the storyline sucks), he makes some throwaway comment about not needing faith when he had her.
I don't know which writer did it by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 12:22:41 PM
I'm a continent away from my library and comic collection, so I can't draw from the source directly. Sorry. It'll probably turn out that it was written by Morrison or someone, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad graphic novel (written in the early 90's I think) that basically just tries to capitalize on the Punisher-esque comic genre that was so popular at the time. It's not irredeemable, but it's pretty much a cum stain on the Gap dress of Batman history. You probably haven't seen the plot thread 'cause DC wishes it didn't exist.
I certainly wish it didn't. by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 12:28:31 PM
There should be an addendum published at the end of the year by every comics company that outlines whether or not the storylines for that year are viable or terminated. That way, all the pure CRAP that comes out for the year can be written off.
Sorry JonQuixote by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 12:55:59 PM
I realise a lot of my reference points are alien to most people, but unfortunately I sometimes get so carried away with my train of thought that I forget. Just me being stupid, I'm afraid. I'll do my best to explain. Cap has no declared religious affiliations, but he acts in a manner similar to someone who does. If anything, he appears to be a Humanist, rather than an Agnostic, as he believes it is possible for humans to uphold the highest moral and ethical standards without being commanded to do so by an all-powerful being. Agnostics await the proof of either the existence or non-existence of God with an open mind. They take no moral or ethical position. Historically though, there is a certain kind of self confidence and immunity to fear that only comes with the certain knowledge that when you die you are going to Heaven; that you are obeying a higher calling, and that God is on your side. Every religion has people like that. Not people who are seeking to die for their God, but those who live for Him. Generally speaking, these people believe they can only die if God has ordained it so, so they have no need to worry. Live or die, it will be as God wills. This is not fatalism - such people do not give up trying - it is something far stronger. It is a total certainty that as long as they obey their God they have nothing to fear. Cap has been faced with a number of situations in the past (Red Skull with Cosmic Cube, for example) that only someone with that kind of faith could deal with. Anyone remotely normal would be terrified, and fear would inform their actions. Cap only ever worries about other people. He has no fear for himself whatsoever. A self determined moral and ethical system is only opinion, with no greater or lesser value than anyone else's, so carries none of this power. Superninja is right about the reason why Marvel never show Cap's religious side, but my point really is that they damage the integrity of the character by doing so. You have to step outside the story in order to justify the character's actions, which is poor storytelling. Hope this clears the whole thing up for you.
Do politics belong in comics too then? by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 01:01:40 PM
So is Cap a Republican or a Democrat? You risk opening up a can of worms that could alienate your audience. Besides, Thor calls himself a god, but it is pretty obvious that there are beings who operate above and beyond his scale and are more god-like: Order and Chaos, Love and Hate, Infinity to name a few.
REALLY serious, Superninja? by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 01:09:12 PM
I thought Wonder Woman was supposed to hold the highest moral standards. That would kind of preclude shacking up with anyone, don't you think? * In my last post - that should have read "they damage the integrity of the character by NOT doing so." Sorry. * Superninja, I completely agree with the 'storylines that don't count' idea. Hawk & Dove (Hank and Dawn) would still be around, and Marvel could have admitted it was a mistake to kill Illyana/Magik. Makes keeping continuity straight really hard though, and you just KNOW they'd declare the wrong stories to be mistakes. *** JonQuixote, you are undoubtably right that DC are deliberately sweeping Batman's marriage under the carpet. I had absolutely NO idea.
Cap is stated as being politically neutral by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 01:12:28 PM
They did the whole thing with that already. He does not feel it is proper for him to vote as he must serve the president, whoever it may be.
Cap can be both by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:16:23 PM
He can be humanistic and agnostic. Believing in God (or wanting to), though unsure of the possibility, and recognizing that it can't be known, while also maintaining that humanity should aspire to a said level or set of behaviors regardless of that possibility. God is out of the equation...whether He exists or not doesn't matter. Cap can be brave without thinking paradise awaits; he, as a man, could recognize that his death is inevitable anyways, and he loves his country or humanity enough that he's more than willing to sacrifice his life in their defence, something he's already contractually bound to lose anyways.***That said, I think any man who tumbles into the arctic ocean and instead of freezing to death, happens to be cryogenically preserved until he can be rescued by a Norse God, an alcoholic thrillseeker, and a poindexter with major Freudian issues is probably going to believe in some sort of higher power. But it's not going to be the crux of his character, and he would definitely be non-denominational anyways, so there's little point in presenting his religion as a fundamental characteristic, especially when it isn't, or shouldn't be.
Cap can be both by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:17:11 PM
He can be humanistic and agnostic. Believing in God (or wanting to), though unsure of the possibility, and recognizing that it can't be known, while also maintaining that humanity should aspire to a said level or set of behaviors regardless of that possibility. God is out of the equation...whether He exists or not doesn't matter. Cap can be brave without thinking paradise awaits; he, as a man, could recognize that his death is inevitable anyways, and he loves his country or humanity enough that he's more than willing to sacrifice his life in their defence, something he's already contractually bound to lose anyways.***That said, I think any man who tumbles into the arctic ocean and instead of freezing to death, happens to be cryogenically preserved until he can be rescued by a Norse God, an alcoholic thrillseeker, and a poindexter with major Freudian issues is probably going to believe in some sort of higher power. But it's not going to be the crux of his character, and he would definitely be non-denominational anyways, so there's little point in presenting his religion as a fundamental characteristic, especially when it isn't, or shouldn't be.
Fuck, now I'm at the top..what's up with this shit? by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:17:50 PM

Of course politics belong in comics by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 01:18:51 PM
providing they are handled in a responsible way. If comics are to be a valid storytelling medium they should not shy away from real life issues. Having said that, politics are an adult theme, and shouldn't really appear in the 'any ages' stuff.
Politics in Comics by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:26:17 PM
Politics certainly have a role in comics, but as far as Marvel comics go, PARTISAN politics don't. If I want to be exposed to rhetoric or propaganda from either side of the fence, I can go to a Rod Lurie movie or log on to rushlimbaugh.com. Marvel doesn't have an agenda, and Cap should have no discernable political affilliation. And the comics HAVE dealt with this, a few great What If stories where Cap was used as a political puppet, and on Mark Waid's second crack at the book, where a skull impersonated Cap and helped endorse a crooked politician. Cap even knows this! The same thing can be applied to his religion, if Cap was Baptist as opposed to Evangelical, too many people, both readers and the fictional populace of his world would be perturbed. Cap knows that as a symbol, it serves him and his country and humanity best that he is without any sort of beliefs and affiliation, beyond his ideals.
And on that note... by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:37:37 PM
I gotta jet, literally. Good debate with y'all and I'll B C-in ya. - JQ
Post Script by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2001 01:42:05 PM
doesn't superninja have a shoe or hot pocket to eat??
JonQuixote, sorry for the slow response by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 01:43:14 PM
but I only just found your last post. The board seems to have gone for random positionings. Superman was raised by loving parents who gave him confidence in himself and his abilities, and imbued him with a strong ethical code. Supes, even were he not a demigod, would be a strong, confident person, be he religious or not. As he is a demigod, he could be an atheist and still do what he does, just because he was raised to do the right thing. Cap, as Superninja has said elsewhere, had an alcoholic father who left his mother who then worked herself into an early grave. That is not the kind of upbringing that produces a Captain America. There has to be some other reason why he is the way he is.
God, I Hope Nobody Tells Chris Claremont There's A Girl Screamin by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2001 02:40:45 PM
...he'll make her the leader. Also, in the CAPTAIN AMERICA religous/political affliation debate, I would just like to say that I like the one where Redwing nearly clawed Stilt Man's eyes out.
Multifarious Comments by Village Idiot	Feb 16th, 2001 03:01:51 PM
SLEAZY: The Asia Carerra comment was typical Village Idiot sarcasm (typical!). But I will say this: you define ludicrous your way, and I'll define ludicrous mine. CAPTAIN AMERICA: I haven't read Captain America since the earlier eighties, but even then he seemed kinda wound out about stuff. Square or geek? To pick up on JON QUIXOTE'S point, would Captain America ever buy a Captain America comic book? SUPERNINJA: Batman, Wonder Woman. . .Can't those two crazy kids see they love each other!! Maybe if Mark Harmon were to suddenly come back into Wonder Woman's life? And ELIOT KANE. . .my-oh-my-oh-my. Read any C.S. Lewis lately? As one of the Humanists you mentioned, I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with your analysis (and Mr. Lewis's, incidentally) of ethics and morality. To simply address just one of your points (one I find more ludicrous than Asia Carerra's breasts (sorry, that's just a joke, I couldn't resist)): characterizing a self determined moral and ethical system as "only opinion" with the implication that a faith-based system is based on something more definitive is a fallacy. Faith ultimately rests on opinion. Perhaps I misinterpreted. Perhaps you are suggesting that the subjective reflection of the believer (i.e., dubiously rational religious conviction (see Kierkegaard)) holds more psychological weight due to the moral relativism of the ethical non-believer. I will now let you take the ball and run with it; American Football style or Rugby, take your pick. (Of course, you've probably had your post answered a million times since I've been writing this.)
Then again, by Village Idiot	Feb 16th, 2001 03:04:21 PM
maybe not.
Jihad Damn! The post are coming up at the top of the Talkback l by Village Idiot	Feb 16th, 2001 03:16:44 PM
I knew that people would be chiming in on the dang religion thing!
Thanks for your comments Sleazy_G. However. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 03:17:47 PM
From the concise Oxford dictionary: "agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God." I am sorry, but you would appear to be wrong in your definition. * Judaism as a whole only recognises the Pentateuch as sacred, with various groups recognising other works also. Neither Buddhism nor Hinduism believe in heaven, so far as I know: a good life leads to reincarnation in a higher caste or higher life form for the vast majority; a bad life drops you down the ladder. Zoroastrians become good spirits. Sikhism promises freedom from Samsara. Christianity - you are right. Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins, and that would certainly qualify. I was trying to keep it simple rather than writing a treatise on comparative theology. * I am not sure I have the words for the attitude I was trying to convey, and I did the best I could. If it wasn't very clear, I apologise. *** I have NEVER said a self-derived moral and ethical code is meaningless! That would make me the ultimate hypocrite as my own is such. I said it becomes a matter of opinion, with no greater validity than anyone else's. I am happy with my own code, but I can claim no higher authority than myself. I am NOT a religious person, but that does not mean I do not respect the strength that perfect belief gives. Nor do I believe in mocking others' beliefs. People draw strength from many things, and a lot of people draw a lot of comfort from religion. As to Cap doing the right thing because it is the right thing, every culture and every religion has its own definition of right. 'Right' and 'Wrong' are not absolute values.
Village_Idiot, you caught my point exactly. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 03:29:56 PM
For which I thank you. I thought my ability to communicate clearly had utterly deserted me. The ethical non-believer stands alone. S/he has no fallback position and no supernatural comfort blanket when things go bad. If life goes totally wrong, s/he faces it alone. That ain't easy as we both know.
Just to clarify by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 03:58:35 PM
I believe it's been stated in the comics that Cap believes in a higher power, and they just leave it at that. Thor, in fact, believes in a higher power as well, if my memory serves me right.
In fact... by superninja	Feb 16th, 2001 04:03:34 PM
Though Thor and Co. call themselves 'Gods', they don't call themselves THE god as if they're the higher power.
Subjective reality is a powerful force. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 04:09:35 PM
For all of us, what we believe to be true can carry a lot more weight than what actually is true. We all perceive the world differently as our minds interpret everything we experience according to our own perceptions, prejudices, beliefs and past experiences. This is why several people seeing the same event will give different accounts of it. If you believe God or The Gods or The Goddess stands with you the belief is in itself enough to provide strength. The truth (Objective reality, if you will) is unknowable and irrelevant.
Thanks for the confirmation Superninja. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 16th, 2001 04:15:09 PM
That sorts the whole thing out totally from my point of view. The specific religious denomination Cap follows was never relevant. He is totally reinstated as my favourite hero.
Theology-schmeology! I'm not just going to sit here. . . by Village Idiot	Feb 16th, 2001 05:12:05 PM
. . .and put up with your denegration of the cosmetically enhanced breast! Of all the breasts it has been my pleasure to know over the years, some of the finest have been of the saline variety. Please Sleaze, there's enough prejudice in the world today. Can't we just agree to judge the woman and not the breast? *** And speaking of morality, one of the finest things about human beings (aside from breasts) is a curious degree of universality when it comes to ethics. Certain academics have noticed that from culture to culture, taboos exist in relation to (among other things) killing, and willfully mistating the truth. Is there a hard universal standard of morality? If there was, this suggests a knowledge of the objective value of behavior, and like Village Eliot said, objectivity is unknowable (except when it comes to breasts). On the other hand, an "intersubjective" standard arises naturally. Rousseau noticed it. Kant streamlined it (i.e., the Categorical Imperative). Perhaps from this intersubjective, soft-universalist (Rosenstand) basis, humankind can unify and prosper. *** Now I should stick in one more breast reference here, for the sake of consistency, just to "round things out," you might say (ugh), but I can't really think of anything (besides "round things out" which is terrible.)
oh, for the love of . . . by sequin_sithlord	Feb 16th, 2001 08:19:39 PM
This thing is so wrong. the director is wrong. the casting suggested in this forum is NUTS. There can be only one actor: Nic Cage. Think about it. There can be only one director: Jerry Bruickheimer. Can it be simpler?
Captain America & World Religion: A Paradigm For The New Milleni by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2001 09:48:10 PM
I liked the one where the Red Skull activated the Sleeper and it all game together like Grandpa Transformer.
Sleazy_G, you are still wrong about Agnosticism. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 17th, 2001 01:37:00 AM
It is not what you think it is. Nonetheless, I am glad that we are finally on the same wavelengh. As to undercutting my own beliefs, I do not think so. I can logically prove their validity to my own satisfaction, and that is all I require. Ultimately though, I share them with no other creature, living or dead. Right or wrong, I am alone. They are my opinions based on my interpretations of the world and the way it works. They are not a matter of faith or unquestioned belief. * Village_Idiot - society may be defined as a group of individuals who have agreed to follow common rules for the good of all. As such, there is a certain life style which is best suited to catch the balance between individual rights and tribal survival. This is why all of the major religions agree on the basic principles for living. If you explain to most people that tribal survival requires social cohesion so that the people can unite quickly in times of peril, the usual answer you will get is, "Huh?" This is why religion requires unquestioning obedience. Whether it is the word of God or not, the principle behind it is to ensure tribal survival by creating a unifying set of principles. People with a common set of core beliefs can work together under pressure more easily because they have at least that much in common. Tribes with a strong sense of community survive, those without it die out. * One last point: the prohibition is against murder not killing. A tribe that cannot defend itself dies out PDQ. The Punisher could thus argue that as he only kills those who prey upon society, and never commits murder (unjustified killing) he is just as likely to end up in Heaven (or wherever) as the rest of us. As a man who actively seeks to eliminate threats to the tribe, he is a 'good' guy.
I must say Elliot by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2001 07:05:13 AM
That I'm a little perturbed by statements such as 'an alcoholic father and a hard working mother do not a Captain America make'. What makes you the definitive authority on human nature? That situation could be 'less likely' (I don't agree, but I could swallow the wording) but to say that it is impossible for (insert virtues and characteristics here) to come from (insert family situation here) is nothing short of insulting and elitist (elitist in a bad way). Confident, Powerful, Idealistic, Honest, Moral, etc. people can come from all different sorts of backgrounds, and have all different sorts of belief systems.***That the Jewish faith does not necessarily believe in heaven is something I never knew but picked up two days ago in a class on Ginsberg. Funny how once something comes up for the first time, you begin to see it everywhere, eh?
I apologise JonQuixote. by Elliot_Kane	Feb 17th, 2001 10:54:48 AM
You are right of course, I should indeed have said 'less likely.' Nothing is ever definite in human nature, however far the balance of probability seems to tip. We are very strongly influenced by our parents and the society and conditions in which we grow up, but it is our responses to these stimuli that make us what we are rather than the stimuli themselves.
no prob EK by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2001 11:04:44 AM
Reading your posts these past few weeks, you haven't exactly struck me as the kind of guy who would make those 'definitive' statements (discussing 'city bitches' and shells with Comedian notwithstanding...heh heh), so I figured it was probably just one of those examples where the words you use don't exactly express what you want to say...much like when I try to pitch my 'original' takes on movie properties, and it winds up coming across like a movie that should be starring Stephen Baldwin. Peace!
Nobody can top Dolph Lundgren by buddyackerman	Feb 17th, 2001 12:46:07 PM
I don't care what anybody has to say, Dolph was great as the Punisher. I blame an awful script and dull direction.
Sloppy Me by Village Idiot	Feb 17th, 2001 03:04:58 PM
CITIZEN ELIOT KANE: Dang! You're right on the killng /murder distinction. In my enthusiasm to preach, I let an easy one slip past the goalie. Argh! Be that as it may, I am down (as we say in the States to indicate agreement) with your assessment of the integral unifying power of religion. In fact, as I'm sure you know, many anthro geeks and pseudo intellectuals like myself believe that it was actually the unity that came first, and then the religion; that religion began as merely the abstract sanctification of the tribe/society. Sort of a historical materialistic explanation. Futhermore, familial cohesion, which I would gauge to trump religious cohesion rests on something besides spiritual bonds. Can this be applied to society? Akin to Princeton Philosphy Professor and media cause-celeb Peter Singer's idea of the "Expanding Circle" of moral interest, I belive the quality of concern for our fellows will widen past family and community and into the world, not on the basis of religion, but simply on compassion and reason. Will this have the rallying power of religion? I believe as humanity progresses, it will. (Now I'm sure I made a host of imprecise misstatements above that I will later regret, but I'm punching the post button anyway.)
Well, your screen name is "Sleazy" G, so your breast post should by Village Idiot	Feb 17th, 2001 03:19:11 PM
Actually it was goddamned clever. And of course my screen name is Village "Idiot" for obvious reasons.
What Makes A Captain America. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 17th, 2001 03:42:45 PM
I like the one where Richard Fisk, the Kingpin's son, took over Hydra, thus pissing off the Red Skull. So the Skull took over Hydra, Fisk Jr. ending up in a coma. The Kingpin lead his entire mob against the Skull's 5th Sleeper, while Captain America, The Falcon and Redwing smashed the Skull's organization. The Skull, himself, escaped as usual.
Funniest Thing I've Heard All Week by O'Brien	Feb 17th, 2001 10:58:12 PM
I just wanted to share this with you guys 'cause I knew you'd appreciate it. Co-worker of mine who fancies that he knows something about comics and movies asked the other night: "So who's playing SpiderMan?" I told him, and he said, "Who?" So I explained who Tobey Maguire was. Co-worker grunted and said, "Y'know who'd be the best SpiderMan? Wesley Snipes!" Well I tell ya' I could barely pick myself up off the ground. You know which role I think Wesley Snipes would be perfect for? The role of Guy Who Never Acts In Another Movie Again For The Rest Of His Life. Anyone want to second that?
Village Idiot, if you wish to continue by Elliot_Kane	Feb 20th, 2001 12:29:13 AM
this conversation, please mail me.
Punisher casting by ApacheChief	Feb 20th, 2001 12:47:56 PM
If I were making Punisher, I'd get Vinnie Jones from Gone in 60 Seconds, if he could do something about the British accent, he's be perfect for that role.
Regarding Christian Bale by ApacheChief	Feb 20th, 2001 12:52:09 PM
Christian is a good actor, but I think he'd be better as Carnage or maybe Gambit.
Last! by JonQuixote	Feb 20th, 2001 02:24:09 PM
Always wanted to do that
VINCE VAUGH = The Punisher... by citizenpain	May 1st, 2002 01:21:38 PM
making a new punisher movie... sweet idea. seeing as how the punisher has always been my favorite comic and i was dissapointed with the original movie (still, i own a dvd copy of it and have a movie poster on my wall from it), a new punisher flick will be badass. anybody who thinks that this franchise is dead or whatever is dumb... marvel movies simply can not fail today just because there is so much hype behind them all and it seems that every single marvel flick gets a great cast, great writer and an excellent director. i'm sure the punisher will have this too and it'll be badass to see another rated r marvel movie. my pick for the punisher? if he could get in better shape, i think VINCE VAUGH definitely has the look and attitude. word.
Michael Madsen by bunnyman40	Feb 3rd, 2003 12:25:05 AM
Ole Mike did play vincent Vega in Resevior Dogs. I can't believe he wanted to work with Costner.

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