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More on BATMAN BEYOND

Has the world gone mad?! by Cooler-than-Thou	Nov 29th, 2000 10:15:02 AM
What the fuck is up with these suits, man?! Batman, Superman and Batman Beyond were some of the coolest shit on television and they're just giving it the finger? What a bunch of idiots. I hope Kids WB tanks now.
Here we go again by Lurker	Nov 29th, 2000 10:21:33 AM
What the fuck! Does our opinion or money count for anything! Are they going to simply ignore the outcry all of us consumers voiced at the begining of all of this!
All of a sudden... by Robin Goodfellow	Nov 29th, 2000 10:23:00 AM
...if it ain't friggin' Pokemon or Dragon ball Z, it ain't marketable. The horror... the horror. Once again, corporate America (unfortunately working within the rights of the law) is screwing over artists and consumers alike. May the WB get sores on their genitalia!
Batman Beyond by 11569	Nov 29th, 2000 10:40:49 AM
Yea! Now all WB needs to do is shit can Buffy and I will have absolutly no reason to turn on there crappy little network. Its only a matter of time before Pokemon is dead. Batman is timeless and will live on long after the WB network has dried up and blown away!!!
The rise and fall of cartoon civilization by corran22	Nov 29th, 2000 10:46:38 AM
The whole ROTJ thing since the cuts has been train wreck. How can these WB suits be so dense? Gee, let's take a successful cartoon and just drive it into the ground. Way to go. Woo hoo. I've pre-ordered the DVD release version because that's the only (legal) way to get a copy. The stink thing is that the disk will sell a lot of copies because that's the only way people will get it because they won't be willing to wait and see if another version will ever come out. To paraphrase the Joker, I think somebody needs to give WB an enema.
this allways happens!! by Klam Bake	Nov 29th, 2000 10:50:09 AM
It will never change. Cartoons always seem to end on sad notes. Bugs and the rest, Tom & Jerry, Ren & Stimpy and now another cartoon suffers from higher ups trying to second guess response from parents groups. When are they going to realize that these radical, most of the time religious groups don't even buy their product. I'm canceling my order right now! Fuck Warner Bros.!
Beyond Depressing by kmart23	Nov 29th, 2000 11:12:49 AM
Why must they always fuck with something good? Why can't they just leave well enough alone? Why can they do one thing in mainstream comic books, and then have to neutralize it for television? Why is it that this entire country is subject to the small opinions of executive pussies and overly sensitive soccer moms? Don't they realize that if they make a GOOD product they will make money AND get critical praise? It's motherfucking BATMAN for Godsake!! How much more merchandising and marketing does it fucking need? It'll make money on the name alone! Why not make it good in the meantime? Batman is a sure economic bet, why do they insist on neutering the subject matter again and again? What are they fucking worried about? What is risky about putting out serious material in animated form about a very serious character? Batman is a vengeful vigilante, and the Joker is a homicidal sociopath. This is what the characters are, goddammit! This what they have always been! Why do they continually nullify the very essence of these characters? Batman is not supposed to be kidstuff! What is the fucking risk?!! What is the fucking problem?!!! Jesus Christ, why can't they ever, EVER get Batman right?!!!! Somebody give me some FUCKING ANSWERS!!!!!
JLA by kmart23	Nov 29th, 2000 11:18:09 AM
Does anybody know what the story is with JLA? Is it gonna be done "Batman/Superman" style or is it gonna be more traditional?
Ive seen the original version and you can to by easternhan	Nov 29th, 2000 11:30:15 AM
Go to www.hotlinehq.com search for the return of the joker. Several hotline servers have it in its uncut glory. Its really good and everyone should get it.
Cartoon violence is just a red-herring by corran22	Nov 29th, 2000 11:33:57 AM
I think blaming cartoons for thing and paying too much attention to parental focus groups is not the right way to go. My question is: What did these people watch when THEY were children? I highly doubt it was Rainbow Brite or the like. Did they turn into cannibals/murderers/whatever? I grew up on uber-violent shows like GI JOE and Transformers, and while these shows were violent one thing prevailed: The bad guys lost out in the end. The good guys prevailed. If anything, something like Batman shows you that the evil get punished. That being said, should two versions be released? Sure. But parents should watch either one with their kids. They'll enjoy it and be there to explain things to the kid if needed.
Reading is Fundamental by t-square	Nov 29th, 2000 11:34:38 AM
I haven't seen the unedited version, but from the comments posted it looks like the junior novelization retains most of the original dialogue/situations/etc. So much for protecting the kiddies -- apparently those who can read won't be affected by this kind of stuff.
Someone out there organize an official boycott; the suits will p by vroom socko	Nov 29th, 2000 11:40:35 AM
Why must Corporate America pander to the lowest common denominator? Christ, how soon until WB finds an excuse to toss X-Men: Evolution and Jackie Chan Adventures, paving the way to the all Poke'mon network, the PM? Please tell me one of my fellow geeks is preparing a high profile boycott of the travesty that is ROJ. .............................. I feel like sharing this small story with you. Yesterday I went to my local grocery store to buy some cookies. Not finding any of the peanut butter persuasion, I asked a clerk where some were. His response,"We don't sell peanut butter cookies." When I asked why, I was told, "Don't you know some people are allergic to peanuts?" This, combined with the actions of the WB and the election of George "Alfred E. Newman" Bush tells me one thing; Stupidity is now "in."
bootlegs by HomegaMan	Nov 29th, 2000 11:41:23 AM
Who wants me to make copies?
canadian copy cut by ellroy	Nov 29th, 2000 11:50:54 AM
I've made some phone calls and from what I can tell the copy we Canadians get is the cut one,even though it says unrated. If anyone knows anything different please say where it's available.
How can you tell if someone is a WB exec...... by fladnaG	Nov 29th, 2000 12:22:05 PM
Their the one's goose stepping. Damn Nazi's. How can you justify butchering a piece of art. That whole BS excuse about it being "for the good of the children" is the same old song and dance when they don't want to piss off any parents group. It's the parents DUTY to take an ACTIVE ROLE in their kids life and if they don't want them seeing it then don't let them see it. If parents would actually parent and not let the television do the job for them then this wouldn't be a problem.So angry. If anyone has a bootleg copy I would like a copy. When WB nuts up and releases an uncut copy I'll be first in line for it but until then...
one more thing by fladnaG	Nov 29th, 2000 12:24:00 PM
I love the new Harry animation. Go Catch-22.
Batman Beyond (ROTJ) by justaj	Nov 29th, 2000 12:48:03 PM
If anyone has a tape copy and either wants it digitized and/or placed on a cd I'll do it. Or if someone has it available to download i'd figure out a way to repay them. (and not by those ridiculous prices you see on ebay) I just want to see the movie uncut. I won't even bother to comment on the hypocrisy that is the WB. As someone mentioned earlier, if it wasn't for Buffy and the BB cartoon i'd never watch that station.
I have the uncut version... by SonOfJorel	Nov 29th, 2000 12:59:51 PM
...and all I can say is that, having seen it, it's a HUGE mistake on the part of WB to quit the backing of this movie/series. How long before the shitcan the inevitably bad-ass live action movie? They're shitting all over thier second most recognizable and profitable property all for more Pokemon which, admit it or not, is officially dead. Let's take a minute to look at the facts of Pokemon, with info from a report on one of those news channels. The first "movie" (actually, originaly an OAV with a LONG [took up the entire first reel of a 5 reel movie] cartoon tacked on) made (if memory serves) around $150 million domestic. The sequel (once again, an OAV w/ cartoon) grossed a little over $30 million. Now, the second sequel (originaly an... OAV) is having a major problem finding exhibitor support (in other words, the failure of the second is giving theater owners second thought of booking the third in more than one of their theaters, let alone opening it in their largest one). I keep in close contact with the theater I used to work at till just a few months ago, and the manager has told me that they will be opening Pokemon 3 in the smallest theater out of nine (about 100 seats) whereas the first two were opened in the largest theaters (about 600 and 700 apiece), and that's only if WB doesn't option for a straight-to-video release. The toy sales are down about 63% from what they were this time last year. The video sales are down about 82% from what they were this time last year. Still, WB continues to raid the airwaves with it, rumored to be giving us three hours of Pikachu on saturdays and two hours on weekdays. In all, WB has made about 1.5 billion on Pokemon worldwide (not too much came from Japan, though), with the end to that income looming over their heads. Now, we have Batman. After several cartoons, the most recent two being critically acclaimed, most watched and many-times honored with Emmy's. The TV series and the movie that it spawned will not be touched upon, since they were handled by 20th Century Fox, not WB. The four movies all made a sizable profit (Even the dreadful Batman and Robin), the first and third being the highest grossing movies of their respective years. A toyline that alone has mad WB a cool billion. A movie series that, worldwide, has made them 2 billion. A TV series that has made them about one billion. It's taken longer, but WB has made over twice what Pokemon did in it's short little life. The Pokemon craze is dead now, with new Pokemon items langushing on shelves (and in most cases, being returned to the companies as "unmovable merchandise" or whatever the term was that was used). Yet, Batman items move at a steady pace. While they don't fly off the shelves like Pokemon did for a short period, they have a longevity that something like Pokemon could never hope to achieve. Take note Warner Brothers. You get your money, we get our Bats, it's just not a case of instant gratification. And I'm not EVEN going to start on how good Superman's been to you, yet you hand him over to that bastard idiot Jon Peters.
GET READY TO BE PISSED AGAIN! THE JLA CARTOON WILL BE THE FUTUR by superhero	Nov 29th, 2000 01:03:20 PM
You heard it here FIRST! News like that kinda stings doesn't it?
i know where to get uncut version!!! by batmanbeyond69wu	Nov 29th, 2000 01:06:32 PM
please email me batmanbeyond69wu@aintitcoolmai l.com for the details. take care fanboys!!
What's wrong with this picture when WB can't even do "corporate by One Angry Dwarf	Nov 29th, 2000 01:19:39 PM
Listen up, Warners: we WANT to give you our money. We WANT to buy the original, uncut version from you. Release it in any official way, and we'll line up around the block, cash in hand. Fuck with us, and we'll just get it bootlegged from China. In Article 1, First Paragraph, First Sentance on "How to be a Businessman", it says this: GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT. This entire fucking debacle means you failed to read that chapter.
Complete silliness by Achilles	Nov 29th, 2000 01:24:04 PM
Wow, I really do not get this. I have been infuriated by WB's behavior regarding Batman Beyond. It is a great show, inventive and exciting with a broad appeal. My local DC station insists on constantly shuffling its time slot every other week so I wind up missing it half the time, just so they can cram in a couple extra Pokeman episodes. I have been looking forward to the ROTJ movie a great deal, I will buy the DVD regardless, but I am dismayed that they would be so arbitrary about this. Hey WB, what are you afraid of? That Joe Lieberman is gonna come after you with his morality police? I guess they haven't been paying attention, 'cause Lieberman already sold his soul to the Hollywood elite in exchange for campaign donations. He has no street cred anymore, and Bill Bennett can't do it alone.
This, Oddly Enough, Doesn't Surprise Me. . . . by Cowblaster	Nov 29th, 2000 01:26:43 PM
I knew WB was giving Batman the can as soon as Pok
CANADIAN VERSION IS CUT!!! WARNING!! by Jarek	Nov 29th, 2000 01:29:28 PM
Contrary to what my first post said, the Canadian version is indeed cut. Dammit. Hope nobody bought it thinking otherwise on my advise. I wasn't entirely sure at the time of posting, but now I've found out.
By The Way. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 29th, 2000 01:32:01 PM
. . . DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BUY THE EDITED VERSION!!! Even if it's on DVD! If you must, rent the damn movie, but DON'T patronize Warner's butchering of great movies! Do you understand that WB is laughing at all those who say "Well, I don't like this one but, but I'll buy the DVD anyways, just because it's Batman. . . ?" Don't give-in to their bullshit! HIT 'EM WHERE IT HURTS buy not buying their version of this movie!!!
Complete Summary of Uncut ROTJ by Lore1701D	Nov 29th, 2000 01:46:18 PM
I know most of you have not seen the uncut version. If you are wondering exactly, detail for detail, what happened in it; I have summarized the whole movie in 7 paragraphs on my site: www.aami.cc/fahq. As for my impression of it, I was sorely disappointed. For all the hype, I expected this film to live up to masterpieces like Mask of the Phantasm (my favorite movie of all time) and Subzero. Half of the episodes of the original animated series are better than this film, honestly.
WB = BS by B A Fett	Nov 29th, 2000 01:48:23 PM
Why can't they just release an adult version and a kiddy version? Doesn't anybody there have a clue? Guess not!
It's normal for WB...Boycott it. by stellex	Nov 29th, 2000 02:05:45 PM
I say Boycott the movie until they decide to release the uncut version as well. What the WB has done is equal to objecting to an artists vision and insisting he repaint and/or redo it. Paul Dini has done wonders with Batman...if only we could get him to write a good live action Batman movie that WB wouldn't butcher. The WB has had kind of habit of this anyways. Just look at Cardcaptor Sakura (Cardcaptors) they have on. They just helped butcher that show beyond belief. Then X-men Evolution although not too bad has been made for a children's audience. They feel cartoons are apparently only for kids, and you add to that even Pokemon they have cut before they aired some of the episodes. Then add government pressures against TV, and it doesn't make the picture very good for us fans. Who knows maybe they could air Batman Beyond ROTJ on their premium cable channel of HBO someday. Its a sad state of affairs for us mature anime and cartoon watchers, plus in a way it is cheating the younger viewers too...because parents won't be very eager to watch with their kids if it is simply targeted at just chidlren. That's why the original Batman cartoon had such a wide appeal it had a wide audience and something a mature viewer could enjoy too.
Protest by Ajy2	Nov 29th, 2000 02:08:50 PM
I'm trying to get a group of over 30 people to go protest in front of WB, anyone down? E-mail me at Ajy2@aol.com
Subzero was crap... by Jackass	Nov 29th, 2000 02:17:58 PM
Saying that Subzero is better than ROTJ is just plain horseshit. SZ was poorly animated/edited/written, whatever. It's sales stunk and that is why there is no DVD. It was a pathetic attempt to cash in on Mr. Freeze in that other crapper, Batman and Robin. ROTJ is some of the best animation ever in the Batman shows/movies and is overall stronger than Phantasm, though, the scene in the dance club is just plain mediocre. It looks no better than the show and the fact that Terry is jumping around like he was in the suit is stupid. And to the guy that said JLA Animated will feature the new future lineup, your wrong. I already know the official lineup and all the gory details. It will more than make up for this ROTJ fiasco. It will also give Hasbro a chance to make 200 more Batman figures. Maybe the Superman molds that flopped the first time around can make some money now.
To the boycotters... by Jackass	Nov 29th, 2000 02:22:07 PM
If you decide to not purchase the edited version, you WILL NEVER see a rerelease. Low sales on the initial release will not prompt a naive suit to approve a special edition uncut version. Besides, the edited version CONTAINS EXCLUSIVE DIALOGUE AND ANIMATION, so why not buy the damn thing and then just pick up a bootleg of the uncut version. That way, you have the best of both worlds. Believe me, WB doesn't give a crap if you don't like their decision to cut the film. They aren't budging from their arrogance.
DBZ animation sucks... by Jackass	Nov 29th, 2000 02:25:10 PM
ROTJ animation amateurish? I don't think so. DBZ animation is stiff and nonexistent. I'm not downing the show, I'm just downing the movement. It is horrible and is an acquired taste, like most TV anime(Cowboy Bebop excluded). BB movements are graceful(for the most part), and some of the most fluid animation ever put out. I'd have to say, though, that "Over the Edge" from the Bruce Wayne series tops it, for the most part.
WB Marketing...Additional comments by stellex	Nov 29th, 2000 02:29:28 PM
The WB continues to do this stuff claiming it's for the children, but its really just for money, and to prevent legal challenges from the government, or anal individuals that might cost them more money, among other things. Just look at the horrible plotless cartoon, in my opinion, Max Steel. I saw the toys on the shelfs long before I saw the cartoon. On top of that the toys aren't selling very well. If I remember right Batman/Superman was cut to make room for this and other low quality cartoons. What is next an Action Man series :/ Just look at Fox's saturday morning, what is left to watch since X-men and Spider-man were canceled...and UPN dumped the Hulk for the Disney lineup.
How to watch the uncut version by m2nal	Nov 29th, 2000 02:30:37 PM
The avi uncut version of this movie I downloaded about 4 weeks is high quality(I can watch it fullscreen). I would have suggested to all of you guys who want to get a copy to use Scour but that got shutdown recently. Best bet is to download MIRC, connect to a DALNET server and goto a movie channel(run a search on movies). WB does not deserve a damn cent for any of this cut version. After watching the uncut version I honestly believed it was already cut because I did not see anything that merited cuts. If you need help on getting an uncut version email me at m2nal3@yahoo.com
CuteMX will do it! by MeccaLecca	Nov 29th, 2000 02:42:08 PM
I was able to download the whole movie in AVI format using CuteMX -- a Napster-like service for Windows Media Player files. Go to http://www.cutemx.com and do a search for it once you've installed the software. The file is a good 260 megs, so don't try unless you have a fast connection (DSL, cable, or better).
It's all about money... by Jackass	Nov 29th, 2000 02:45:02 PM
The content that is being cut was to prevent outcries from PC groups. If enough parents bitch, they will lose revenue. On the other hand, how much money are they losing because of people like us who are pissed(I will be buying the cut version simply because of exclusive dialogue/animation)? I've seen the uncut version and I knew that what is getting cut would go, simply because it is much more violent than the show. There are a few who say it is no big deal(the cut content), but it is a big deal to a parent. I would not recommend showing the uncut version to a little kid(I could have handled it as a child, Transformers Movie anyone, but today's kids are just plain different). The whole "Our Family Memories" part of the movie is just plain creepy and could disturb the hell out a little tike. Heck it disturbed a couple of adults I showed it too(thus WB's don't piss off the parent's mentality seems to be paying off with my small non-scientific "poll".).
Wasn't this edited version actually approved by Dini? by Archangel972	Nov 29th, 2000 03:08:27 PM
When news of an edited "Return of the Joker" movie hit the web, everyone was up in arms. Everyone talked about how WB was the devil and how they had once again screwed over the Batman franchise. There were petitions being signed to show WB that they were wrong to edit any part of this movie. Well, about a week later, Harry said that Dini was "OK" with the edited version of the movie. Apparently, he had seen the altered and edited version of the movie, and had no problem with it. Well, I have to wonder if Dini had seen ALL of the cuts because this is just a travesty. The unedited version may be a little to intense for little kids, but for WB to just drop the Batman Beyond sho is... well, its irresponsible. Yes, the head lady in charge of WB kids has a right to be concerned, but its NOT her right to just drop the animated team that was responsible for most of the success that the afternoon program had. Watch for the ratings to take a nose-dive once Batman and Superman are dropped from the program altogether. Anyways, my 2 cents on the BB movie is that everyone should get the bootleg version. Despite what Harry says, the uncut version I saw had good sound and good picture. Everything about the version was of high quality, only problem was that the beginning credits didn't exist. Folks, don't concern yourself with what is amoral or not. You NEED to see the uncut version because thats they way it was intended to be seen. It doesn't matter if the Batman Beyond:ROTJ gets high sales since WB has already dropped the team that created some of the finest cartoons ever. Show WB what a big mistake they have made.
Got it! Thanks to these talkbacks... by Rayedar	Nov 29th, 2000 03:16:25 PM
Ah, how I love this site. Thanks to the advice of a kind soul in one of these talkbalks, I checked out hotlinehq.com, searched for this sucker and downloaded the 270MB .avi file here at work. Can't wait to watch it tonight. There's japanese subtitles (no big deal), and an occasional 'for promotion only' message...but it looks sweet in Windows Media Player 7. Awwwww yeah. I'm not spending one cent on this censored atrocity.
Brilliant, WB! by X-Girls	Nov 29th, 2000 03:34:38 PM
You sure can **** up when you put your minds to it. I wonder what will replace it ?
My Divine Solution by Pietro_Kozlowski	Nov 29th, 2000 04:29:44 PM
As it seems matters could not possibly get worse, I suggest we all take bended knee and repeat the following. Please join me: "Dear God, as you know, the infidels at Warner Animation have decided to inflict great pain and suffering on us--your chosen people--by proceeding with the rape of "Batman Beyond: The Return of The Joker" - and action, we are told by one Harry Knowles, credited to the yet unnamed 'lady in charge of the WB Kids Network.' Thus, as your humble servants, we request this 'lady' be smited with due 'great vengeance and furious anger' via, say, a yeast infection to end all yeast infections. Sure, it's petty and spiteful. But please recall that you, O Lord of Lords, weren't exactly a model of restraint in your youth (IE: rains of sulfur and ash, floods, plagues, etc). Cut us a break. Yet this infection shoudl be nothing fatal, mind you Lord. Just enough to cause this hethenous jezebel called a 'lady' bouts of protracted discomfort over a period of several weeks, and require heavy doses of some antibiotic imported from Mexico which carries a host of socially embarassing side effects including facial ticks, spontaneous vomiting at dinner parties, bad gas -- that sort of mild plague stuff that corrects without killing. This we pray, our One True God. O, Cosmic Fool in The Sky, lest we be delivered from the glorified accountants that should have no business running anything having to do with creativity. Thanks, Lord. You're aces. And give Mary Magdeline a squeeze for me. I hear she's easy. Amen."
Say It With Me- Never Again by Anton_Sirius	Nov 29th, 2000 05:09:04 PM
Forget boycotting just Return of the Joker. Until they have some people in charge who actually possess working brains, I will never again give WB money for anything. Bewteen feature films, video and DVD, and tie-in merchandise, I'd estimate that to be somewhere in the $100-$150 range just for this Christmas alone. Let's see, if only 1000 people do the same, that's a loss of $100,000 of revenue. 10,000 pissed off Batman fans puts it at a cool million. And that's assuming none of 'em have more disposable income than me. A drop in the bucket? Perhaps. But it's my drop, and the WB isn't getting it.
VCD by James Boldman	Nov 29th, 2000 05:47:08 PM
Does anyone know where I can get a VCD of the original version? Thanks. markhazzard@yahoo.com
i just cancelled my order in protest by lrmat	Nov 29th, 2000 06:24:02 PM
I had batman beyond pre-ordered from buy.com, but seeing as this is not the that was recommended at this site, i am no longer interested. i suggest others do the same and send a strong message.
Canadian Release on eBay by thebatman	Nov 29th, 2000 08:15:43 PM
Watch out, folks. There are people selling the Canadian release of this film with the claim that it 'might' be the un-edited version, or that they are not sure. It appears that they are trying to capitalize on the extreme fan reaction to WB's edits. I just saw one sell for over $200, and that person is going to be extremely hacked off once they realize how they've been burned. To my knowledge, the Canadian release is the same as that which will be released here in two weeks. Don't get ripped off! If you really want to purchase a bootleg of the unedited version, make sure that's what you're buying. Thats's all we need, to provide chuckles for the executives who ordered these cuts as they watch people spend exhorbitant amounts of money on the same product that could be picked up at the corner store in two weeks. Most likely it's just a marketing ploy to get people to buy both versions. With this kind of fan reaction, they would be flat stupid to not take advantage of the demand.
Bruce Wayne's Stabbing Isn't The Cause Of His Limp. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 29th, 2000 08:28:41 PM
. . . If so, then how come he wasn't limping in the pilot episode, just before he retired? I think he limps because his body is merely showing signs of much abuse over the years.
Oh, Yeah. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 29th, 2000 08:32:59 PM
. . . Dana's just got some cuts and bruises. That's why she's still in the hospital during the last fight scene. Way to go, WB! Everyone knows that when kids hear the word "concussion," they automatically go out and try to beat someone's brains in with a baseball bat. Cocks!
Don't you guys get it yet? by Choda	Nov 29th, 2000 08:38:15 PM
There is a lot more money to be made here by top executives at WB then selling 50,000 copies of an uncut version of ROTJ. This is about the proposed merger of TimeWarner with AOL! Both companies are being reviewed by the government as we speak for approval of this merger. With the big push of "violence in the media" by Washington going on right now, neither company wants to be viewed in a bad light in any way, shape or form. This merger will create the largest company in the world! They will be worth over $350 billion! They will potentally have the largest exposure to the "average Joe" than any other company. All those executives will stock options will make millions off this merger. (Didn't anyone here see "The Insider") So if, in their minds, cutting some "questionable" scenes from RTOJ is just "one small way" of getting the merger through, then they will do it. Do I approve of this strategy as a consumer? No. I like BB a lot. I think it is one of the best shows on Sat mornings and I hope I can see the origional version one day. But as a graduate of business school, I totally understand why they are doing it. If this merger goes through, I would bet the world WB studios will totally be revamped and will be 110% better. But only time and the Federal Govt. will tell.
Oh, well. Bootlegs are fun! by greercd	Nov 29th, 2000 08:57:18 PM
Well, that makes only 3 shows I will watch on WB (Buffy, Angel, and 7th Heaven, yeah 7th Heaven, you wanna say something?) I refuse to believe that Paul Dini willingly approved these cuts, they either 1. did'nt show hi ALL the cuts or 2. Basicly held a gun to his head in the form of the live action possibilites. I'll RENT the DVD so I can see the exclusive stuff and then use my ripper to copy it. WB don't get dime one from me. Bastards.
Some guy using eBay to rip us off by Sumodon	Nov 29th, 2000 11:01:44 PM
There is some guy selling the uncut ones on eBay right now. He is charging like $50 for one of them. I wish true fanboys could keep it friendly but I guess everyone's out to make a buck.
Heheh. by Zone Zero	Nov 29th, 2000 11:07:50 PM
WB is just a drain on resources from Cartoon Network! Show RotJ UNCUT on Cartoon Network around midnight, if they're so scared.
I just watched the uncut version... SPOILERS by Toxic Frog	Nov 29th, 2000 11:24:14 PM
I was going to wait for the DVD, but after hearing how different it is from the movie I was looking so forward to, I watched the ROTJ avi that's going around. It's the best of any of the Batfilms, (I like it a lot more than Phantasm, which I enjoyed but thought was WAY too predictable, and I didn't like the cliche Phantasm character). ...In my opinion, it's official: They ruined all of the best scenes in Return of the Joker... In particular, and most importantly, the PIVOTAL scene between Batman, the Joker and Robin was absolutely PERFECT. This scene alone sets the tone for the rest of the movie, and the changes I've read about simply destroy one of the single most important aspects of the plot and scotch-tape it back together, which results in the film as a whole suffering severly. This is the most powerful and IMMERSIVE scene in the entire movie. The depth of the story, the characters, their situations and motivations, is completely ruined by these EXTREME changes (these aren't minor changes, these are whoppers). It's precisely the kind of animated movie the adults (and kids that can handle a couple of 'scary' scenes) have been craving, but are unable to find in the American market. It's exactly the kind of Batman movie all we Bat-fans have been waiting so long for. It's well done, intelligent, and just plain cool. It's a great movie. Too bad we'll never see it...
AVI by GermanCity	Nov 30th, 2000 12:33:46 AM
My girlfriend and I pulled up a chair and watched ROTJ fully uncut in avi format. We were giddy with excitement to witness such a remarkable Batman film. Beautiful. Even in the lower quality version we saw, you could tell the animation was above and beyond that which we are treated to in the weekly series. I urge everyone and anyone to try and snag a bootleg, you owe it to yourself. Funny thing, as I was downloading the avi from an undisclosed source, I found myself chatting with others who had come there for the same reason. Our mutual hate for the WB brought us all together in a spirit of friendship as we watched our downloads and traded WB insults. I just want to say: Thank you and god bless to the unamed soul who posted the avi for us to download. You've done us all a great service. Amen!
I've seen the unedited version. No spoilers... by Andy Travis	Nov 30th, 2000 01:49:25 AM
Luckily a good friend has some, shall we say, contacts at WB. The unedited version, which I saw last week, was no worse than the "Batgirl falls to her death" episode. It's creepy and screwed-up, but nothing that really needed to be cut and re-edited. It's a PG in my book, easily. It's a shame because it's extremely good, probably the best of the animated movies. At least up there with the Batman/Superman crossover. Oh well.
Ummm NIGHTWING anyone? by Windtalker	Nov 30th, 2000 03:16:56 AM
I only hope Dini has a Nightwing project on his mind, I would love to see a full lenghth feature of Nightwing battling Blockbuster and dealing with Oracle and Huntress, not too mention Bats himself. Anyone else agree? Windtalker is outta here..........
The cancellation of Batman Beyond... by Gag Halfrunt	Nov 30th, 2000 06:23:17 AM
...leaves room for Buffy Animated, which looks like it's going to happen.
"Time has come to...PAAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!!!" by XTheCrovvX	Nov 30th, 2000 07:20:42 AM
All right, people....fun's over....welcome to the first day of the revolution.....the WB has murdered greatness........now, before i get to my solution, I have some minor stuff to get out....judging by sme of the cuts made to the film, ok, some places i understand why cuts were made...scenes like watching Tim Drake get electrocuted by a maniacal Joker or watching Tim take revenge by shooting Joker in cold blood...ok, those are damn intense....but as it has been proven with the Spawn animated videos, releasing two versions can be profitable, and still be safe for younger audiences.(HBO has always released two versions of the Spawn video, PG-13, and a rated R version, and it is always a best selling video when they release them)....and if im not mistaken, doesn't Time Warner OWN HBO?? Why, then, hasn't this movie gotten the same treatment? Why are they assuming all their viewers are 7 year old kids? They're not. Matter of fact, 90 percent of thetime, their target audience of 7 to 12 year olds doesnt know what the hell's going on. I agree with whoever state dabove that we WANT to give Warner Brothers our money....but this is the artistic equivalent of giving somebody a plate of sirloin steak,cooked to perfection, then spitting on it and laughing. We're not taking the shit they spit on......OK, now to the big tragedy...Batman Beyond is being canceled?! Now i have absolutely no reason to turn to their bastard station except for Buffy, Angel, and Roswell...and even Roswell had to dodge the corporate "cancel" bullet last year)....This can't continue....now, the suggestion i keep seeing more and more around this TB is one thing....protest. Now, while i can't really advocate the selling and marketing of Asian bootlegs, and getting your unedited copy from a one-eyed Pakistinian hermaphrodite, i do think the "suits" need to be sent a message somehow...and while i dont really know how to go about it, there has to be a way to tell them that there are a great many people who'd rather see the uncut artistic vision of Batman than a "kiddiefied" creation....but i only got one idea....word has to get out....go tell your brother, sister, father, mother cousin, anybody who's even remotely a comic book or cartoon fan about this travesty....and MOBILIZE!!! Get letters out, send emails, throw bricks through executive's windows, picket outside of the Warner Brothers' studios if you live near LA, make flyers, and spread the word to the uneducated, PRONTO!! Because whether you think its this severe or not, this is really artistic freedom on the line....because as long as "suits" get the final say, there really isnt THAT much freedom left is there? Censorship, i think, is closer than we think...should we fail, well...theres always Canada "You know what I want? I want fat. I want cholesterol. I want butter, bacon, and BUCKETS of cheese. I wanna have myself a Cuban cigar while getting a blow job. I wanna run down the street naked reading a Playboy magazine smeared with green jelly because i might suddenly feel the need! Because I've seen the future, and you know what I see? It's a 46-year old virgin suckin' down a banana broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer weiner!"-Denis Leary, "Demolition Man"
They are right, all right every one by spider-ham	Nov 30th, 2000 07:36:24 AM
I was able to grab a copy of the uncut version off cutemx. (btw what is the deal with the asian sub titles and english "do not copy" warnings?) Just to add my voice that everyone is right. The cuts ruin the movie. Some of the cuts don't effected it at all. Such as the removing of blood and using words like "ice" instead of "kill". Others change the whole look and feel of the picture in a bad way. Not to mention creating several gaping plot holes. I still plan to buy the cut version. The animation is great and its still enjoyable. It will be a hollow shell of what it was.
by TallScott	Nov 30th, 2000 07:40:47 AM

I have the unedited version, email me if you're interested in se by Piwate Woberts	Nov 30th, 2000 07:41:50 AM
Email is leighanne@buffymail.com
The creative process and jealousy by squidman	Nov 30th, 2000 07:45:51 AM
I
Boy who the heck is running the show at Time Warner by TallScott	Nov 30th, 2000 07:46:44 AM
Once again Time Warner has shown is that they are the Keystone cops of the entertianment biz.. Can they do anything right? Now they wont make a dime from this and they will probaly blame Dini and Timm..RIGHT! I really will have to think twice before I buy anything with a Warner Bros logo on it agian ..The certianly wont get my money for Batman Beyond beacuse I wont buy it!
AVI file by DougRamsey	Nov 30th, 2000 08:29:54 AM
Has anyone seen a version avaialble for download WITHOUT the Japanese subtitles? The quality of the version I got on CuteMX is awesome, but those subtitles are annoying...
the late great Bill Hicks summed it up. . . by RenoNevada2000	Nov 30th, 2000 08:37:25 AM
. . . by saying (And I'm quoting from memory so it might be tad off) ``What is with this fuckin' cult of the child? It's for `the children'!?!?!? What? After a certain age they just fall off of your fucking Love List?!?!'' If the above Talkbacker is correct and WB is just trying to look squeeky clean for the proposed Time Warner/ AOL merger, than I'm flat out disgusted that they would whore children in such a manner. Greedy corporate scum-whores.
You don't become a WB exec by BEING SMART people! by Helos	Nov 30th, 2000 08:50:01 AM
This doesn't surprise me at all. When word of the edited-for-Saturday-Morning-te levision version was the only version being released, I knew WB had something else up its sleeve. WB sucks. They should not be allowed within ten light years of a comic book property. I hope they rot in hell.
avi file by 2112r	Nov 30th, 2000 09:16:21 AM
how do you get either the hotlinehq.com .avi or the cutemx file to work I could not find one that works on hotline or cutemx
History repeats by Sandman,Esq.	Nov 30th, 2000 10:02:36 AM
While a blur of explitives come to mind when I think of this travesty, the truth is, they won't help. Unfortunately, nothing will. Once again a product that is exceptional, and is eagerly desired by an overwhelming majority, will be kept from all for no good reason. There are no arguments of "social unacceptability," or of "irreparable harm to the francise" that would follow from the project. No, here, the only real problem is that NONE of the "powers that be" have sat down to WATCH this film. Decisions are being made on paper, by people ignorant of the facts. The creator no doubt has lost the energy to request that someone actually WATCH this thing...and of course, all of our voices may as well be mute, for no-one is listening to what we say. Another great work will now sit, rusting unused. This isn't about "high art" or the "purists", this IS a financial decision...and they are getting this one dead wrong. "Give 'em what they want," while not always the best idea, most of the time it works...especially when it is your "market" that is requesting it.
Screener copies for sale! by Aunty-WB	Nov 30th, 2000 10:21:31 AM
Hello again, boys and girls! Your sweet old Aunty is back, and bearing lots of x-mas goodies for each and every one of you! As some of you are already aware, I have an offical, unrated, unedited ROTJ screener, from which I can make lots and lots of copies. How much for this hot little commodity, you ask? I don't want to be greedy, and this will take me some considerable time and effort for me to do, (and we DO live in America, after all!) so why don't we say a mere $30. (I know, I know, but your Aunty's got a lot of mouths to feed this holiday season) And, out of the goodness of my heart I will still be offering a QT version of the Tim/Joker flashback scene for FREE! Simply email me at auntywb@yahoo.com for all of the gory details. I've already done business with several of you sweethearts, so I know you can vouch for the quality of old Aunty's wares. This is a top-quality, digital transfer, but there are a couple of minor glitches at the very beginning and end of the film. However, there are NO Japanese subtitles, and more importantly, NO TAMPERING by those bastards at WB! There are, however, the usual "no copys" titles throughout the film. (Ooh, I'm sooo scared!) Ta-ta for now darlings, and remember: FIGHT CENSORSHIP!
What I want! by diverdan	Nov 30th, 2000 10:23:38 AM
I just moved to the middle of nowhere. I am in a WB free zone, I can't even get a WB station via satellite. I was really bummed about being cut of from BB,Batman,X-MenE, MIB. Now it seems most of these won't be on anymore anyway. Can't even get copies from friends back in the world! I want all these shows to head over to Cartoon Network! Hey, get Dini and Timm jobs at Cartoon Network and let then develop some new stuff. The aforementioned Nightwing? That'd work for me. Let WB become the all Pokemon network. Let them realize what they've done when no one watches Pokemon anymore!
the .avi files by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 10:28:33 AM
Anyone who has these Avi file you will need Windows Media Player 7 to see them (I'm just trying to help, I spent 2 hours trying to make them work
avi's by 2112r	Nov 30th, 2000 10:36:14 AM
nevermind using media player 7 can't even find the avi files
The uncut screenplay is available now, why not the film?!?!?!?! by Monkey_King	Nov 30th, 2000 11:12:05 AM
I picked up a copy of the Dini script from Doubleday Bookstore here in Cleveland the other day. In-fucking-credible script. Why release this and not the same thing on video? It doesn't add up.
Bootlegs by HomegaMan	Nov 30th, 2000 11:44:24 AM
Anyone live in Brooklyn, NY can hook up with me so i can get you copies of the clear version which is better than these downloads. 55th street and 5th avenue in Sunset Park Brooklyn. 34th street in front of Toys R Us in MANHATTAN. These guys have tons of copies.
someone please fucking help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by O.G. One-Kennobi	Nov 30th, 2000 11:52:51 AM
I cannot figuare out how to download the movie. I went to cute mx and hotline hq and could not figure out how to get the movie because I couldn't find it there. someone please help me and send me detailed instructions or post them here at aicl. thanx!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O.G.One-Kennobi
NOBODY BUY IT! by ThereIsNoSpoon	Nov 30th, 2000 12:55:29 PM
DONT LET ANYONE YOU KNOW BUY THIS DVD OR VHS TAPE! IF YOU'VE PREORDERED, CANCEL NOW! SPREAD THE WORD ON AS MANY FANSITES AND NETWORKS AS POSSIBLE! IF WE MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE WON'T PAY FOR WHAT WE DON'T WANT, THEY'LL HAVE TO GIVE US WHAT WE WANT! Sorry for shouting. This kind of thing pushes my buttons something fierce. Oh and since I am an anonymous poster and not the purveyor of this fine website I CAN advocate something illegal - BUY BOOTLEGS! It's NOT wrong! We aren't paying less for an available product, we may in fact end up paying MORE money to pirates because the product legally offered to us is of INFERIOR QUALITY! Simple business school, you want to make the most money, you have to offer the best product. If pirates supply our demand better than WB, legalities aside, that just means the pirates are giving us a superior product. As an artist with a strong opposition to censorship of any form, I know that piracy is wrong, but in this case is definitely the lesser of evils. The law disagrees, but hey, the same laws didn't allow women or black people to vote once upon a time.
Boycott all WB Products! by King Farooq	Nov 30th, 2000 01:42:34 PM
I watched the full uncut last night, and I must say it was great. Also for WB to cut the scenes that they did turns this movie into the equivalent of a burrito with no hot sauce. That is why I think we have to send WB a message from all us fans. I call on all you to pull to together and boycott all WB products until they come to their senses and release this movie the way it was intended. To boycott the purchase of this one movie only tells WB that this movie bombed. Let's send them a greater message. Let's let them know we are pissed and we are not gonna take this kind of disrespect. We are the ones that pay for their products, and we can also choose not to. Let's make WB feel some of the pain we all felt when we found out we would never be able to see this movie the way it was intended. Who is with me? --King Farooq
Dark Victory by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 02:50:03 PM
First on that 7th Heaven comment may I just say go to hell. I enjoy it. get bent. Everything else you said I agree with. Man I hope that those WB execs. don't read the Batman comics they publish. They'd drop dead right then and there. Hmmm,not a bad idea.
Jean MacCurdy's email address by James Boldman	Nov 30th, 2000 02:59:05 PM
Here it is, folks. Email the individual responsible for the cuts in Return Of The Joker and the cancellation of Batman Beyond: Jean.MacCurdy@warnerbros.com or Jean_MacCurdy@warnerbros.com Please be civil and mature when you email her. Insults and hate mail will get us nowhere.
emailing the woman at WB by Zarozinia	Nov 30th, 2000 03:49:13 PM
Frankly, I'll be happy to jam up her inbox, but other than that it's a complete waste of time. A couple of months back, Harry put up snail mail addresses to send to the people responsible for home video at WB, and the civil, intelligent letter I wrote was returned unopened. Fuck them.
Playkin... by The Killer-Goat	Nov 30th, 2000 04:51:03 PM
...you tap the facts involved very directly. Compromise IS a fact of entertainment and there are posts reminding us how lucky to have observed the Dini/Timm guide the animated series this far, given the "pc" obstacles faced and worked around. Recognizing how far they've come, however, it's extraordinary how much this last film was 'altered'. If it were a matter of principle and public obligation to curb the violence on the same level playing field as all other America animation, then the re-treatments in this case have already been too extreme. Although censorship does not directly apply to this situation (per your definition), there are overly-biligerent political/governmental waters the animation industry had to wade through and the fear of inciting censorship against the industry may have been a reason for the extreme re-edits (I DO mean extreme), but harsher things have televised in similar animated mediums, and this fiasco reveals a decidedly inconsistent level of "violence-maintenance" from the WB executives. After so many years of previous Batman Animated stories with controversial content, it boggles the mind to see this gem of a film picked as the scapegoat to serve as example of how WB handles "controversial property" (as noted, they STILL didn't change the 'unrated' definition). Yes, Dini and Timm are professionals that need to earn a living as we all do (no, "whoring" was not intended), but my concern is that after such a long successful interaction with the WB company, why the sudden about-face? Just for business-sake? It's not so much the matter of observing the spread of the ashes, but in investigating the source of the spark. Surely you're also aware of the comments of Disney digitally re-editing old classics to omit suggestions of cigarettes and cigars? Even after these classics have been wholesomely accepted into our culture for so long! As for the flame-post reactions to your initial reality-doses; amidst a website flooded with dedicated [over-obsessed] fans of filmdom, statements of "get over it" and "it's only a cartoon" tend to get more than just a little noticed. I'm sure you've observed that a general consensus was rooting more for the animated portrayals than the inferior live-action versions that WB still intends to pursue production with. The shame is in having to witness what may very likely be a twisted swansong of a great creative team, thanks to the WB [Network] dept.
I'm glad I'm not the only one by supershauna	Nov 30th, 2000 05:01:31 PM
it's nice to see that other people are this upset. I get really freaked out when they move the BB time slot around here too, since the digital cable listings are not always accurate. I have actually stayed up all night (when you come in at 3am, it's not hard) just to see BB in that 7am slot. I say, thank God for the Cartoon Network. and i agree, the new JLA is gonig to be those characters from the last new episode, they left the character development too open to not continue with that group. by the way, is there not a maximum length for these postings?! I just skip the long ones since they are usually just a bunch of bitching, but seriously...
WB YOU HAVE LOST A CUSTOMMER!!! by Agent23	Nov 30th, 2000 05:03:28 PM
THAT
Jackass, where do you get your JLA info? by Drath	Nov 30th, 2000 05:32:32 PM
I want to know about the JLA show, it's roster, its direction, but so far I've heard zip. Is there a site somewhere with the goods? I sure as hell don't want that watered down JLU to get a show before the real deal.
Download BBROJ UN-CUT for F R E E.. (sorry wb :) by TheEvilHarvey	Nov 30th, 2000 05:33:19 PM
Dont spend another dime on inflated bootlegs of bbjoj. Insult warnerbrothers intelligence for free! http://www.hotlinehq.com If that was wb's appreciation for 10 year fans, then they deserve to be pick pocketed 400,000 times, regardless of political outcome. Warner Brothers is sh*t canning batman beyond for rights to harry potter.. "the" cartoon series. So you owe it to them, don't you? Let them chase the fad, and give a few hours of your time for the download.. And let the grinch loot the profit out of wbs hands. TheEvilHarvey
There's still X-Men Evolution by Drath	Nov 30th, 2000 05:38:47 PM
This IS a great show. I don't care if it changes Marvel continuity--of course WHICH Marvel continuity should it be anyway? X-Men E is wonderfully written, animated, and voice-acted, and for once they didn't focus of Wolverine(although as a result he's probably the weakest character on the show). But since the Batman Beyond fiasco proves that all cartoons are unappreciated by the WB dicks, I should abandon my appreciation of the last good animated show.****Just for the record, Batman Beyond is no longer a continuity I care to support. They've fucked up the Tim Drake Robin for the last time by having the Joker drive him to insanity. Why the hell didn't they just call him Jason Todd and get it over with? They ruined a good character almost as badly as Joel Schumaker ruined the whole Batman movie world!
silver lining? by dashielm	Nov 30th, 2000 05:44:23 PM
this is not going to happen, but i'm trying to grab at least a little bit of hope out of this craptacluar garbage. maybe, just maybe, this will be the plot for the batman beyond movie, combined with a bit of the original batman beyond movie. i know pipe dreams
Hollywood is not responsible for your kids! by Black Horizion	Nov 30th, 2000 05:47:21 PM
Now, I'm not supporting the warping of children's minds. However I'm extremely tired of people blaming Hollywood for corrupting their children. If you find some material (such as Batman) offensive, then DON'T buy it for them! No one's forcing you. As a child I never had a WB executive storm my house and force me to watch garbage. You can't expect the whole world to be censored, simply because some parents don't want to do their job.
But, then I might not be able to go get drunk, by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 06:02:41 PM
Damn you different people and your insidious reason, insinuating I should raise my own children instead of letting Pikachu and Jerry Springer (jeez, what an odd couple) raise them (The Preceding was sarcasism now back to our regulary scedule program assumeing it's not bumped for more Pokemon episodes damn, I'm bitter) and "The X-Men as Youngsters?" Dude have you EVER read the orignal Lee/Kirby stuff. The orignal team were teenagers. Iceman was on 14!
John_McCain@McCain.senate.gov by TheEvilHarvey	Nov 30th, 2000 06:17:32 PM
Turn this from Warner Brothers and make it national. Senator McCain, from Arizona, is responsible for raising the violence issue against hollywood during his campaign for nomination of presidency, which has led to this censorship by Warner Brothers of Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker. Email and tell him that censorship is a dual responsiblity which ultimately passes through the hands of parents to children. Tell him that your censorship beliefs have been violated, by censoring your right to view a cartoon as intended by the reputable production of Warner Brothers, which produces many family films, before its political disturbance of his campaign censorship issue, and ultimately, causing you to pay cancelation fees because of it. You have a voice, that should be shared with Senator John McCain of Arizona.. don't you? He is the flip vote in the senate people.. he has the power and it would be good for the media to grab ahold of this issue from his office.. Tell him and you will hear your voices!
http://www.senate.gov/~mccain/ by TheEvilHarvey	Nov 30th, 2000 06:19:01 PM
http://www.senate.gov/~mccain/ visit and post as mentioned above
Spread the Word! by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 06:35:16 PM
Well I've just put up info on this plus links to this site on every single sit I post to including: ffonline.com, The Pizza Parlor, and Left Behind. Plus sending letters to Daily Radar telling people NOT to buy the cencored version and encouriging bootlegs of the REAL version of this great film
Forced to disagree (sorta) by Man Out Of Time	Nov 30th, 2000 07:09:11 PM
Okay, I've seen both versions of ROTJ. While there's no question the uncut version is far superior, I agree with them making the cuts they did. Why? Because the uncut is WAY TOO EXTREME for small children. If you have seen it, I hope you'd agree with me. Cartoons are seen as a babysitter to many parents. They stick the tape in without previewing it and walk away. If a kid had his parent there to walk them though some of the more disturbing/violent scenes, and there are plenty of both, it would be okay. However, more often than not, this would not have happened, and the kid would have nightmares for weeks. I disagree with most of what WB is doing to this fine show, but in this case, I have to be on their side. I'm just glad I have my screener copy of the original version. Sucks to be everyone else.
Man out of time - by ThereIsNoSpoon	Nov 30th, 2000 07:25:19 PM
Two points - one, of course it's too extreme for small children! So is the Godfather. Neither work was intended to be seen by small children. Two - HBO released Spawn(animated) on video in both unrated and PG-13 rated versions. There's no reason WB couldn't do this. Not only is it the right thing to do, it would make them more money. Everybody is happy. They're honestly just being stupid.
Man Out Of Time. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 30th, 2000 07:34:27 PM
. . . nah, I don't think the uncut version is too extreme for small kids. It's a bit violent, but the violence isn't glorified in any way. The movie shows kids just how tragic and wrong violence really is. If parents are concerned, they should watch the movie with their kids, not butcher the movie so they can feel better about letting them watch it. I seriously doubt any film in Hollywood is responsible for violence in schools, and Return of the Joker isn't anywhere NEAR as graphic as most of the stuff out there.
batmanbeyond.com by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 07:53:32 PM
I gotta agree with cowblaster.But thats not why I'm posting. I'm posting because I just out of idle curiosity checked out www.batmanbeyond.com and found that a lot of the DVD extras are on the site. The making of, storyboard, Crash music viseo, and other stuff. Download this stuff and then you don't have to deprive yourself during a boycott!
Amazing by Jadeh	Nov 30th, 2000 08:37:16 PM
It really is. Two days ago I had a hard time finding a copy of BB:ROTJ to download, but I found one. I watched it, I loved it, I turned around and made my copy available... now when you look it's not 2 or 3 people that offer it for download it's 20 or 30... And it's only going to grow. WB are fools. Try CuteMX. Lots of people offering the uncut there.
I am the Lizard King by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 09:04:11 PM
Y'know for all intents and purposes I'm currently running a full boycott cmapaign out my dorm room. i'm currently working on a letter to the bitch( for some reason I'm having trouble being civil. Stupid Bitch). Hopefully it will be done tomorrow plus I'm distributing CD-ROM copies of the bootleg and giving out the e-mail adresses to fellow geeks on campus. Be the Bat.
Dolphin4 by greercd	Nov 30th, 2000 09:57:04 PM
I was just re-reading some of these talkbacks and I just wan't to say to Dolphin4: yes, we do care what our kids watch but we don't sell the kids short. I've seen the uncut version and there is NOTHING that the average 10 year old can't handle. This is really just a B.S. excuse used by a person at Kids WB who has hated the DC Comics based shows from the begining and admitidly "dose'nt get" animated dramas. Those of us on this board who have kids will be watching this alongside them and can and will talk them through any scenes that they might have a problem with. Other peoples kids are'nt our responsibility they are there parents responibility and thats the problem in this country (please note I NEVER said America Sucks or anything like that) is that people are so used to intervention by the government and special intrest groups that they don't believe that their children are their responsibility and that TV and the govenment, schools, etc. will raise them just fine. I'm the person I am because of my parents and they took a very active role in my life. Thank You. Rant Over. We now return to our regulary sceduled progam unless it's been bumped for yet another episode of POKEMON. Peace Out and Be The Bat.
Uhhhh... Mr. Squidman, sir...? by Rufus_T_Firefly	Nov 30th, 2000 10:01:55 PM
As a fellow professional in the advertising industry, let me offer a few words of career advice. If you're going to P.M.B. about your agency coworkers, then DON'T DO IT USING YOUR AGENCY'S E-MAIL ADDRESS! How are things in the advertising mecca of Allentown, PA, anyways?
Just Down Loaded from Cute MX GOD IT ROCKS by martin847	Nov 30th, 2000 10:11:54 PM
Just to let anyone who still hasn't seen this...it is well worth the download. I won't pretend to be all knowing about movies & plot. But shit if you like the tv show you will like this (only unedited). By the way anyone else catch that one of the Joker's Gang (I think his name is Goth) voice strikes a remarkable resemblence to Christopher Walken... Nice Touch. If anyone has trouble w/ cute mx email me and maybe I can help. PUT IT ON DVD THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SEEN!!!!!!!!!
Too Extreme For Kids, But... by Mattman	Nov 30th, 2000 11:28:25 PM
IT'S NOT FOR KIDS!! This is an adult film! Anyone who has seen the uncut version (and I just did) knows that. Cutting it to make it a kid's movie is simply butchering the material. It won't make any sense if Joker trips into water and dies! That's not the story. ROBIN KILLS HIM. Out.
Yes, This Movie Is For Kids. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 30th, 2000 11:56:17 PM
. . . AND adults! Heck, just like The Iron Giant, this movie is for EVERYBODY to enjoy, not just one age group. To simply say this movie is for adults justifies WB's censoring of this movie. Kids would LOVE this film just as much as anybody. . . maybe even moreso. But, editing this fine film to SOLELY appeal to brainless youngsters is a travesty to say the least. Why not just make a Batman film where all he does is go around Gotham and catch bad-guys; no plot, no emotion, no heart. . . just mindless, toned-down action for kiddies to gaw at and parents to be forced to sit and watch? Cripes! Warner Brothers, whether they know it or not, kids appreciate a good plot that makes sense. . . especially as they grow-up, understanding more of the movie every time they watch it. Case in point; our generation of Bat-fans that continues to buy your product and are angered by censorship to great movies.
The WB have screwed up BEYOND belief by Xcalibur	Dec 1st, 2000 12:26:42 AM
I just saw the Batman Beyond bootleg on a four-inch window on my roommate's computer. The quality was horrible, but well worth it to see Paul Dini and Company's true artistic vision. Am I the only one who sees the inherent contradiction in this contraversy? The more responsible version is the one where there is no blood and therefore violence has no consequences??? Batman(and by that I mean the comics and the animated series alone, even though I love the Tim Burton versions)has always handled its dark subject matter responsibly and with the utmost respect. The character stands as a powerful moral voice in the world, opposing violence, including capital punishment, even for sick inhuman monsters like the Joker who has little hope of ever reforming. That is because there is always hope. "The Batman does not kill." This movie addresses this issue in a serious and responsible way. It deals with the physical, the emotional, and the psychological consequences of violence and killing. How dare they say that this is an irresponsible film! This is just as responsible with its subject matter as The Mask of the Phantasm was, the great Batman film ever, and one of the greatest films ever. What makes these films so irresponsible? Is it the emotional depth the characters show when dealing with terrible loss? Is it red spots of paint drawn on a page? Which do you think is the more responsible version: the one where a character shows emotional scars for having killed another human being forty years ago, or the one when a character shows emotional scars for no apparent reason? Also, for the record, Mask of the Phantasm had "evil" blood in it too and was well received. Although, I wonder just how much never made it to the final cut.
Well there might be another silver lineing by TallScott	Dec 1st, 2000 03:37:10 AM
I did hear that Buffy will be movieing to ABC..And if this happens it will be the end of the WB..Good riddance..Thats what you get for letting the suits run the place. When will they every learn its talent not commerce that makes something wonderful
go to www.PetitionOnline.com/uncutbat/ by vroom socko	Dec 1st, 2000 04:32:28 AM
Sign this sucker, ee-mail the WB, let the suits know that we want this film available in it's original form. While you're at it, remind them that not only are two versions of Spawn available, but two versions of their runaway Toonami hit Gundam Wing. Hell, until recently, two versions of Gundam W AIRED! As to the Warner-Wide boycott, how soon will we all fold when Matrix 2 comes out?
Oh...my...God...sigh by MCVamp	Dec 1st, 2000 05:49:07 AM
I just finished watching a downloaded AVI of BB: ROTJ. I rarely watch B Beyond because it just isn't the same, it's like an Elseworlds one-shot story gone on too long. But although Bruce Wayne-no one else-is Batman, this movie blew my goddamn mind. Should a kid under 10 see this? Probably not. Should anyone else who ever took even the slightest interest in a Batman-related story see this over and over again? YES. This should have gone to the theaters. Because it was an overall Classic Batman movie, I'll still take Phantasm. But the flashback sequence in BB: ROTJ was the single most riveting 10-20 minutes of Batman I've experienced since the Killing Joke. I never, EVVVERRR geek out for anything but Star Wars but this was the best animated action movie I've seen since in years, and that's saying a lot. CuteMX.com has a nice interface that sets up fast and you can download a fairly crisp AVI (with Japanese subtitles and the screener warnings, and no opening credits) in about 1-3 hours depending on traffic. Will I buy the cut version? Before I would have said sure, why not. Now? It would be like shelling out for the TV cut of Pulp Fiction. Ain't happening. WB should pull the DVD release altogether and put this in the theaters, PG with no cuts. It's that good. Censorship is a cancer, and the more it eats away at our freedoms, the less defenses we will have for killing the disease. Censorship like this never pulls back, it only halts for a little while. The USA is still the greatest country for a free mind to bloom. It's sad that corporations and the artists that must bind themselves to these leeches to make a living for themselves are either unwilling, unable, or uncaring in matters such as these. I feel for Timm and Dini, this movie is the best expression of their art that they have yet realized. Yet Warner Brothers and small-minded politicians, hiding behind what they say is "good for us," can't let the people that have been the driving force in keeping this franchise afloat for decades, the fans, enjoy the creation as the hard-working artists and writers originally intended. I should buy the edited DVD when it comes and mail it to the WB offices with a note that reads: "Dear Sirs and Madams, I have purchased your DVD of Batman, proving that there is a viable market for this sort of thing. However, this is not the promised product. In short, my DVD is defective. Several scenes are missing and have been replaced with made-for-kids footage. Please replace this with the correct version. I will gladly pay for the new copy and shipping. Just give me what I want. Signed, a fan of animation, Batman, and general freedom." Too bad I can't afford to do it. And that no one would listen to me.
Mr. Rufus T. Firefly, seems I need to explain ... by squidman	Dec 1st, 2000 06:59:54 AM
I was purely over-the-top frustrated. My EXTREME views were shared with said coworkers and we all had a laugh. Just making a point, thank you.
One oddity about the voice talent in ROTJ... by Andy Travis	Dec 1st, 2000 07:53:38 AM
Both Melissa Joan Hart and the incomparable Henry Rollins provide character vocals...a match I thought I'd never see, quite frankly.
I'm Breaking the Law!!! by Anarky Rulz	Dec 1st, 2000 09:34:28 AM
Hey, guys! I've just got a BOOTLEG copy of "Return of the Joker!" And, frankly, I'm tired of hearing that I'm no better than the villains in Batman. I'm not hurting anyone and nothing's gonna happen to....ARRRRGGG!!!! KEEP AWAY!!!!! IT'S THE BAT!!!!! NO!!!!!! ARRRRRRGGGG!!!!
Cowblaster, I agree by Mattman	Dec 1st, 2000 10:33:10 AM
Good point, you're right. I just get tired of everyone thinking animation is ONLY for kids. But yeah, kids should see this unedited. It won't hurt them, or make them kill anyone when they grow up. There is violence in the real world, and if we teach them that there is not then we're not preparing them for this world. OUT.
Um...they already are on Cartoon Network by James_O'Nasty	Dec 1st, 2000 10:50:20 AM
The WB episodes of Batman are already are on Cartoon Network, and they just added Superman. Love Peace and Chicken Grease
Fans Don't Matter by Reignofjerm	Dec 1st, 2000 10:59:29 AM
I don't believe anyone is questioning the validity of the need for CERTAIN cuts to be made, everyone is just upset that an uncut version isn't going to be released as has been done recently with Transformers The Movie DVD and the extremely underrated Street Fighter II animated movie, and ofcourse the already mentioned Spawn. But it's funny that everybody hasn't realized yet that fans mean nothing. We were told that our petitions were being looked at with great intrest. If anyone thinks for one moment any of the suits at Warner Brothers are actually gonna read any e-mail or petition from fans, then they're full of crap. The petitions were designed to do one thing, to show that there is an overwelming intrest out there for the uncut version, and it did that, but WB doesn't care. As soon as a movie is complete it goes into the hands of execs who have "exit polls" and "demographic charts" that says who's gonna watch a movie, and where they can make the most money at. That's the only reason Pokemon still exist, it sells. So while we may think its stupid to have 2 freakin hours of that stupid half cat-half lama (whatever) Pokemon every Saturday and Fraturday, all WB sees is profit. So, as has been the case in so many other studio decisions (Star Trek: Insurrection, Jar Jar in Star Wars II, etc.) the fans are getting shafted. And if anybody thinks any action cartoon on KidsWB! is going to be renewed past 2 seasons (real 13 episode seasons not the "5 new shows a year season") then they need to be working for Warner Brothers, because they don't know anything either. My advice, download it off CuteMX and have yourself a blast. I am afraid to say I am turning traitor though, and I just have to buy the DVD, simply because the animation and sound was so good it deserves to be played on a DVD player. But every true BB fan needs to go and get both (bootleg and legal) versions of this great movie.
What should Mac users do? by RichardTenor	Dec 1st, 2000 12:32:16 PM
The only place I can find an Quicktime file of this is on a hotline server that always kicks me off halfway through the download. Any suggestions? You know, an irony in all of this is that if we refuse to buy the tape or DVD, WB execs aren't going to question why. They're simply going to see numbers (or lack thereof) that tell them there's no market for Batman Beyond, and so there will be no perceived incentive for them to produce more. Ah, the "suit" mentality. Gotta love it. I like the idea of buying the tape and sending it back to WB, saying "product defective." I actually think that's the best idea I've heard so far...
SFII Underrated? Kids should not be exposed to anything? by Radd	Dec 1st, 2000 02:02:00 PM
Wahao..there's a lot of crazy talk in here. What's with a lot of you people. First off, Dolphin4, certain things kids should not be exposed to at a young age. Raunchy sex scenes, gorey violence and the like, from all acounts ROJ had none of that. What are they saying? *******semi-spoiler but not really******Batman gets cut with a knife and Joker gets show? Also, the few people that mentioned it are right, people treat children like idiots. Your kids aren't as stupid as you think. Dumbing TV down for children only dumbs down your children. If you don't want your kids to watch certain shows, watch those shows with them, explain to your kids what you don't like about it in a way that makes them understand why it's wrong. And don't let them watch it. Too many parents let the TV babysit their kids and expect the government to censor everything to a preshcooler level or less. Did you know that the Communications Decency Act is being ressurected, a law that is intended to make the entire internet child safe. (This is equivelent to banning all non-children programming from TV and cable, and banning all non-children friendly books from bookstores and libraries. In fact, the previous incarnation of the CDA was so vague, it would have made it illegal to post the Bible on the internet.) This is government censorship gone way to far. Take a step back and look at the big picture folks. Now on a side topic, someone mentioned that Street Fighter the animated movie was underrated? Umm, if anything it was overrated, most anime fanatics raved about it, I still hear people call it 'the best videogame movie ever made'. I'm sorry, but there's several videogame films I can think of that are much better. SFII wasn't terrible, but the animation wasn't all that great, and the story was convoluted and didn't even follow what little story the game had very well. And the end was terrible. I hated that fight scene. Of course my feelings on the plot and the end are my own opinions (But the animation being sub-par is a fact). Okay, now DBZ someone mentioned has having great animation, while someone else complained it was stiff and lifeless. You're both right. The fight scenes in DBZ are wonderfully animated, but every other scene is still frames and cheap animation budget cutting tricks. Okay, that's my two cents. Take it or lump it.
Wow by Mister Nobody	Dec 1st, 2000 02:32:29 PM
Like many of you, I was able to see a teensy bootleg .avi version of the uncut movie, and I was stunned at how great it was. I wasn't expecting the story to more or less wrap up the original Batman series, but Dini, Timm and company really did that well. And it would be a real horrible shame if WB did not release this version for sale. That said, I wouldn't let my young kids watch this movie, and Though I can almost understand why WB got cold feet about some of the subject matter, I really can't understand the lack of management that led to the movie getting as far as it did before they decided it was a mistake. I mean, animation has to be carefully planned and scripted long in advance, and I imagine that the people in charge were well aware of the more disturbing elements of this story (which actually had some similarity to Hannibal, interesting, because the Mad Love episode showed a lot of Silence of the Lambs influence). Was there a recent change in the executive staff of WB Animation, or could the recent violence in media flap have really been that intense in Hollywood? I would have just slapped a PG rating on the movie, but then, I don't think the animated series really should have been on Saturday morning TV, either. More like prime time. Dini and Timm seemed to be toying a lot with a similar theme over the last year, with the Talia and JLU episodes of Batman Beyond and now this. All old enemies returning via various disturbing forms of mind control. I'm kind of on the fence about whether to buy the edited version even with the cuts that would seem to emasculate the original story. From what I could see, the animation looked really sweet, and one thing I haven't seen mentioned is how amazing the voice acting was, possibly the high water mark for the animated DC stuff to date, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill in particular.
DarkVictory is right .... by X-Girls	Dec 1st, 2000 02:36:57 PM
the new Spidey and X-Men tv shows are pathetic shit.
Remember by Reignofjerm	Dec 1st, 2000 04:15:42 PM
In WB's defense, they did try to put Batman:TAS and Batman Beyond on during primetime. For about 2-3 months each they were seen at 7:00p.m. on Sunday's. Now granted, that's a sucky time, but atleast they did try. I guess they figrued it wasn't enough interest. But, don't give up, remember what a little fan uprising did for a little canceled sci-fi show back in the 1970's. (That would be Star Trek for all you youngsters.)
JLA Series, not the JLU from Batman Beyond... by JimJim Binks	Dec 1st, 2000 04:19:01 PM
I'm pretty sure we're not going to see the Justice League from Batman Beyond in this new JLA Cartoon by Bruce Timm. Mainly because in every damn article I've read about this show, it refers to it as a JLA Animated series. The Justice League in Batman Beyond was the JLU (I think it stands for Justice League Unlimited.) I don't see how a JLU series would work well.
perhaps I was unclear.... by Man Out Of Time	Dec 1st, 2000 06:47:23 PM
My problem with kids watching this movie really has nothing to do with the content. It has to do with the fact that I know 90% of parents would stick the tape in and walk away. The movie does indeed depict violence in a non-glorified way, but a young child needs a parent there to help them with this concept. Otherwise, it could seem to them that Robin is suddenly a bad guy, and that can be hard for a child to digest. There was another release recently which I think had some similar issues. A live action/cg version of Animal Farm came out on video about a year or so ago, and while being a brilliant film, it was very true to the source. Brutal, violent, and quite scary. The company that released it marketed it towards children, as that was the easiest way for it to make money. I work at a video store, so I got to hear all the complaints of all the parents whose children were freaked out by this movie. Should the film be blamed? Absolutly NOT. This is the parents fault for not getting involved in what their children are watching. But the sad fact is, most parents don't do this simple thing. And so studios, being businesses who rely on customers for their money, have no choice but to cut the problems they know they'll have off. Nip them in the bud, so to speak. Should Warner Bros release an uncut ROTJ? I think so. Perhaps with a warning of some kind, but I don't think that'll happen. If they do release the uncut, It'll have the same packaging, and I'll get to hear the complaints all over again. In a perfect world, we adults who enjoy animation could have our version while the kiddies have theirs, but until parents start to realize the impact this form of entertainment can have on a child (or anyone, for that matter, but that's a different rant altogether), and take some responsibility, we'll get more works of art cut to shreds for the sake of the dollar. I hope my position is a little clearer after this.
Man Out Of Time. . . by Cowblaster	Dec 1st, 2000 07:50:10 PM
. . . it certainly is. Well-put, old bean.
Help with this file by Mr.Teacher	Dec 1st, 2000 10:00:03 PM
Ok, I have a 56k, so this download is running over a few days. ;) I've got most of it and thought I would boot up realplayer and take a look. The sound comes up fine, but I get an error message on the screen that read "unable to render video, MP43 decompressor not found." Any idea what this is all about? Or will this little hangup go away once the file is totally downloaded. Thanks
AVI file help by Mr.Teacher	Dec 1st, 2000 10:02:22 PM
Ok, I have a 56k, so this download is running over a few days. ;) I've got most of it and thought I would boot up realplayer and take a look. The sound comes up fine, but I get an error message on the screen that reads "unable to render video, MP43 decompressor not found." Any idea what this is all about? Or will this little hangup go away once the file is totally downloaded. Thanks
OK, I'll cop to this.... by greercd	Dec 3rd, 2000 09:50:29 PM
I'll admit the curren t Sidy series is worse than the fucking comics right now (God, I did'nt think it could get that bad)and the Avengers seies should ahve been bumped instaead of Bug Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot (which was just fun) but I do kind of enjoy Evolution. Admitidly it's not Dark Phoenix but hey what do you expect from WB? (Certainly not respect for the fans)
Who wants a copy of Batman Beyond ROTJ, uncut and on VHS, cause by ApolloRockafella	Dec 5th, 2000 07:10:14 PM
I have, you want, no lowball offers please. apollorockafella@yahoo.com
I HAVE IT! by neveragain	Dec 6th, 2000 01:11:01 AM
MAN, it took about 5 hours to download, but now i have a beautiful, albeit subtitled version of the UNEDITED flick even if it is 2:30 and even if this is the beginning of finals week, i dont care i'm watching this now i hope it is as good as expected... we'll see anyone wanting to discuss how it can get in your hands, or just to say hi, send me a message @ CamelBilly@hotmail.com and if i just broke the rules by handing out my email...oooops...
Screener copies for sale! by Aunty-WB	Dec 7th, 2000 01:12:17 PM
That's right! Uncut, near-pristine VHS copies from the official screener for sale. The cost is $30/ tape + $5 S&H. This is the real deal, kiddies. email to auntywb@yahoo.com for orders/ more info...
this argument reminds me a Simpsons moment by Woodward	Dec 8th, 2000 02:09:21 PM
Nerd: In episode 2F09, when Itchy plays Scratchy's skeleton like a xylophone, he strikes the same rib twice in succession, yet he produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is some sort of a [the three nerds chuckle]magic xylophone or something? Boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder. June: Uh, well, uh... Homer: I'll field that one. Let me ask you a question. Why would a man whose shirt says "Genius at Work" spend all of his time watching a children's cartoon show? Doug: [embarrassed pause] I withdraw my question. [starts eating a candy bar]
WARNING: DO NOT BUY ROTJ FROM "AUNTY" by Mozer	Dec 13th, 2000 04:35:26 PM
Hi, This is a note to all those considering the purchase of the uncut Batman Beyond: ROTJ video from Michael Reese, who goes by the name "Aunty". His email address is auntywb@yahoo.com and his other address is mr3film@earthlink.net. Aunty is charging $35 for this video. I know alot of people are outraged that people are charging high prices for this video..but for me..I need this video and I needed in good quality and "aunty" posted an ad in the Ain't It Cool talkbacks offering videos made direct from the original promo screener tape that was sent out to retailers and reviewers this past summer. I immediately sent payment..and low and behold..I got the video. "Aunty" had the goods and delivered in a timely fashion. However my praise of "aunty" ends there. I popped in the video immediately as I have been dying to see this film in its original context since the film was announced almost a year ago. "Aunty" had stated that there we minor flaws in the video, mainly the very beginning was cut and there was a "glitch" at the end of the tape. No problem for me..I knew that going in. What I was not told was that the audio would be filled with a "crackling" sound throughout the ENTIRE film! The sound is most prominent in the first 10 minutes and the last 5 minutes of the tape, but it is there throughout the duration of the film. I tried it on three different VCRs with the same outcome. I had to switch the audio over to mono to tone down the cracking and popping, but even that only helped a little. Alright, so what would anyone do if they got a video like this? You would ask for a replacement right? Well thats what I did. I sent him an email this morning explaining the audio problem. I simply asked for a replacement and even offered to send a new blank tape and money for postage. Here is the reply I got back: "II'm glad you got the tape OK. I'm dreadfully sorry about the sound distortion, but I don't think there's much I can do to to satisfy you. (The dv copy itself is apparently wearing down, perhaps, I'm not sure...) I did not have the time to check all of the tapes that I made, but most sounded fine to me. I can offer a replacement, but I'm afraid I'd have to charge you the full price again. I don't want tapes coming back to me because I don't want to give out my home address. (The same reason I'm not accepting money orders) Unfortunately I sold the actual screener a while back, so that is not an option either. I don't want any disgruntled customers out there, but I hope you understand. Let me know if there's anything else I can do... Sincerely, -Aunty" So basically the wants me to send him another $35 for a replacement tape. I again emailed him back and politely told him that I wasn't going to pay another $35 for another tape. I told him it was only fair that he send me a replacement tape. Here is what he replied: "You missed the point: I don't think ANY new copy is going to be BETTER than the one I already sent you. And really, a few pops and hisses? There are worse problems that could happen. As far as guarantees go, I only promised a good picture, with no guarantees about sound. And how do I know you're not just scamming for another tape? It's a quandry, I admit, but I'm afraid we're at an impasse. I hope there's no hard feelings..." So now he is basically saying "screw you". He promised a good picture..said nothing about the sound. Then he has the balls to claim that I am "scamming" him for another tape! Why the hell would I be "scamming for another tape? If I wanted to make a copy of the one he sent, I would do so...all I wanted was a replacement. So my tone in my response was not as pleasant. I basically said that the tape he sent was defective and he owed me a replacement. I told him if he would not agree to my terms (which were very reasonable) that I would inform those on the talk backs and those on his mailing list about what kind of guy this is...and what kind of tape he is sending out for $35. He didn't even use a good blank..he uses a standard grade JVC blank tape. His last reply was simply this: "I'm sorry, but no dice. Have a nice life... -Aunty" So he basically said..screw you and drop dead..I got your money. I am extremely disappointed. I vowed not to give Warner Bros. my money for the butchered version. I knew my only alternative was to deal with bootlegged copies, so I coughed up the $35 for "aunty's" tape and it turned out to be defective. He doesn't have the courtesy to send me a replacement tape or dare I say refund my money. Now what can I do? I can't afford to pay another bootlegger upwards of $50 for another copy. I'm just royally screwed. I'm sorry for the length of this, I know most don't care...but I wanted to warn those that were considering sending this guy $35. Don't do it...buy one off Ebay or look in a newsgroup or something. This guy is a real asshole, and I'm sure my tape wasn't the only one that was defective. So consider this a rather lenghty warning. Sincerely, Tom

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