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A Guide To The Murder of BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER!!!

Bootlegs all around by Jobriga3	Nov 28th, 2000 05:29:59 PM
Anyone with a bootleg copy of the unedited version is going to make a fortune on eBay. (Mostly because I'm going to pay big bucks to see it.)
Two words... by Lenonn	Nov 28th, 2000 05:38:48 PM
... darn them! This is a travesty. Of course, this is the same company that is only releasing Friends in the Best of... DVD format, instead of a boxed set like The X Files. While none of this surprises me, it sure as heck doesn't make me happy.
Well, it's not surprising by MOSDEF	Nov 28th, 2000 05:40:57 PM
Although I REALLY want to see the uncut version and I think DC DIRECT should sell a "pg-13" version, I'm not surprised that WB edited the film, nor am I angry at them. The current climate in today's culture puts TREMENDOUS pressure on entertainment targeted towards kids. After all these recent hearings on violence in youth programming, the networks are shaking in their boots. It would take someone really courageous to stand up against it, and FACE IT, WB ain't gonna rock the boat. I think they should license the uncut version to an independent DVD company like Anchor Bay or Image or criterion and make a super-special edition UNCUT version with storyboards, audio commentary, and all sorts of goodies. Design the Box art to have a "mature" feel to it and WALLA! Fanboy Heaven!
Two sides to every story... by Edward Nigma	Nov 28th, 2000 05:47:39 PM
I'm lucky enough to have seen the full uncut version about a month ago, and have been waiting for the DVD release ever since (purely to have a better quality picture). When I watched the movie, I was blown away, and absolutely riveted to my seat, especially as the fate of Robin was revealed. I seriously jumped ten feet when the phone rang - I was so intent on what was happening. I do understand why WB would want to cut some of the scenes or at least edit them - I myself was pretty surprised by what was shown, and found myself pretty shocked. Whether this is simply becasue I'm such a big follower of the Bat, I can't say. What I do know, though, is that I think WB making the call to cut the movie for a younger audience is fair. There ARE scenes that the younger kiddies are probably better off not watcing. Not releasing the full uncut version for the older audience, though, is by the same token not fair and a great injustice. I guess what we, as more mature consumers need to realise, is that cartoons and the in this case, the Batman franchise is aimed at the kiddies. I'm not saying this is right, I'm simply saying that this is how I see it. We have to realise that WB's one and only interest is making money from the Bat, and they don't want to risk some radical, close minded parents group lobbying against them. Fair enough. I just wish that these companies would realise that there ARE older people that love their stuff, and hey, we're the ones with the money, so why not make us happy? Just my thoughts for the day. I'm back to reading comics :)
Well, If This Isn't The End-All, Be-All Of The Word "Suck" by Cowblaster	Nov 28th, 2000 05:51:19 PM
Man, I sure am glad I got my hands on the original. I KNEW they couldn't just "fix" one scene, they had to go and touch-up the whole damn movie! I WAS going to buy this on DVD (edited or otherwise) when it came out, but NOW. . . NO WAY IN THE BLACKEST HELL!!! Screw WB! If anyone has a really good quality bootleg of this movie (mine's not up to par), I advise you to do the world a favor and hand out free copies to those less fortunate. I've shown this movie to all of my friends, and I'll start showing it to strangers on the street if I have to. This can NOT go un-punished! Warner Brothers MUST PAY!!!
CD-Roms you say? by takehim2detroit	Nov 28th, 2000 05:53:54 PM
I have the uncut version on CD-ROM. What's more, I'm VERY reasonable. By the way, the quality is EXCELLENT. Please email me if you have questions/doubts.
They got rid of Bat-Fart? by Pr_Frink	Nov 28th, 2000 05:57:50 PM
I really don't get any of these changes that have been made. But the most perplexing one is the Bat-Fart thing. Christ, there are cartoons that feature this word or action countless times. Look at Mega-babies or whatever the hell it's called. It features babies whose superpowers are farting, vomitting, picking boogers and whatever else they can get in. I am truly disappointed and saddened by what the WB has done. And what's so offensive about the word putz? Whatever. I'm boycotting the WB from now on.
I already gots it! by Manifest@work	Nov 28th, 2000 06:01:30 PM
fuck warner bros. Ill boot leg the shit out of this one. email me if you want one.
"Oh No! The Joker Slipped In A Puddle Of Water And Electrocuted by Cowblaster	Nov 28th, 2000 06:02:25 PM
". . . how tragic! If only I could have stopped him from accidently slipping and getting himself killed!" For some reason, I just think that the whole scene loses its emotional edge somehow. . . .
would help if I put my email huh? by Manifest@work	Nov 28th, 2000 06:05:44 PM
manifest47@hotmail.com put batman or something in the subject and these are copies of the screener. pretty good quality.
Bat Cuts Suck by Chaka!	Nov 28th, 2000 06:14:36 PM
I've waited almost one year for this movie, and when the word got out that WB was going to cleave the thing up, I wasted no time in getting a bootleg VHS copy. I thought the purpose of going to video, and the purpose of a rating system was to allow creators some more freedom in their works. Apparently, that is not the case. Many Batman fans aren't 10 year olds, and to cater only to that market only angers the older audience that actually buys the comics. I won't go so far as to say this is the best bat film made ... because it isn't. However I will say that this is perhaps the closest to the dark tone of the comic book that a celluloid version has come, and for WB to butcher it is unforgivable. My only advice ... if you have access to a bootleg, get it. Watch it and appreciate it, but don't support WB by buying this edited tripe. (Note: Please don't e-mail me about getting a copy of my tape ... personally I'd love to send you all copies, but I don't have another VCR to make dubs with).
Screw it... by JimJim Binks	Nov 28th, 2000 06:16:48 PM
I'm not buying this POS. The Uncut Return of the Joker is the best Batman movie so far and after reading the cuts described here, I'm not gonna go near this cut version. I just cancelled my buy.com order for the movie, but I WILL buy an uncut version on DVD when it comes out. The copy I have is an original so its great, but its not DVD. I want my Dolby Digital sound when the Bonk gets a flag through the chest. Warner Brothers... PLEASE LET DC DIRECT RELEASE THE UNRATED VERSION!!!!!
What do you expect... by Kid Z	Nov 28th, 2000 06:21:25 PM
... we are now in the age of Bush 2: This Time, It's Fascism! Just wait'll he gets a few Supreme Court appointments... this is just the first breeze in Level 5 that's blowing our way. Make sure ya got ammo stored in the bunker, dudes, they're coming our way!
It's Hollywood's job to protect our youth! by mthiel	Nov 28th, 2000 06:24:18 PM
We should be praising Warner Bros. for the reediting of BB:ROTJ and protecting our children from violent images. Today's parents can't spend enough time with with their children, so the entertainment industry must take the responsibility of properly raising our children. Remember, today's children are impressionable. If they watch people being killed, they will go into their school and kill their classmates. We all know that the mediais the sole cause of school violence, and Hollywood must control the level of violence they release to the entire public, even though there are older people who want to see the uncut version. Even though many movies are rated R and are not allowed to be seen by young kids, they should all be edited to remove the violence. After all, kids sneak into R rated films all the time, and it should be up to the studios, not the parents, to protect kids from seeing the violent images. In fact, I plan to take all of my DVDs with violence in them and burn them and wait for the studios to release versions without any violence. Artistry is not as important as protecting out nation's youth (ages 1 to 25) from violent images.
Catch 22 by theprinceofspace	Nov 28th, 2000 06:30:50 PM
Believe it or not Gore and Liberman are worse regarding censorship than Duh. Let's not forget who lead all that PMRC crap in the 80's or that Gore and his cronie Liberman who have been screaming about censoring TV, Movies and Video games. Either way they're all a bunch of f*cking hipocrites.
RotJ Edits: Irony (Spoilers and LONG) by JckNapier	Nov 28th, 2000 06:51:14 PM
Same post... better spacing this time around... After reading the list of edits that have taken place, it seems that the most ironic thing is that, despite the promise that this film, edited or not, would be darker, moodier, more tragic then what the show allows, the final product actually is less dark, less violent, less "hard edged"(apologies for the cliche) than the shows from which it was spawned: Despite blood reguraly appearing on Batman Beyond, Batman: Gotham Knights, and occasionally on Batman:TAS, there is no blood in RotJ. Despite the acceptance of the word "kill" on Batman Beyond, Batman: Gotham Knights, and, less often, on Batman: TAS, the word kill has been replaced by "ice", "defeated", etc in RotJ. Despite the occasional risque words or phrases on Batman Beyond and Batman: Gotham Knights (such as "inbreed" and various sexual innuendos on Gotham Knights), the words fart, dreg, and putz have been replaced. Despite the common occurance of Bruce and Terry being sliced and diced by various sharp objects (I still wince at that gruesome, painful, if bloodless wrist wound that Batman recieved from the giant bird in Almost Got Im), Batman is not allowed to be cut or slashed in RotJ. Despite the fact that Batman has been electrocuted (even for an extended period, like again, Almost Got Im) on countless occasions, as have several villains, Robin is not allowed to be shocked in RotJ. Despite being based on a show where half the characters are clinically insane (yes, I now "insane" is in fact a legal term, but I digress), Tim Drake is not allowed to even temporarily lose his sanity in RotJ. Despite... the onscreen deaths present even in Batman:TAS: the death (till the show was renewed for WB) of Clayface, the death of Kiyoti Ken, the deaths of Two-Face's henchman in Two-Face part II, and maybe a few I'm forgetting... The many deaths occuring in Gotham Knights- the three Joker victims, including two cops, in Holiday Knights, the death of the cabdriver in Beware the Creeper, the murder of the pawnshop owner in World's Finest, the explosion and sinking of a cruise ship (where the crew never made it to lifeboats) in Chemistry. The implied explosion deaths of many villains in Batman Beyond, the onscreen murders of a dozen people by Mr. Freeze in Meltdown, the falling death of a villian in Big Time The countless implied explosion/destruction deaths that have occured on Superman: TAS,as well as the onscreen murder of a major character(Turpin), and the execution of a villian in the gas chamber... Despite all this, RotJ will have no onscreen death. Tis good to know that RotJ will actually have LESS "stuff" than even Batman: The Animated Series. Now, this wouldn't bother me purely on principle (I believe that Batman:TAS had the best writing because the writers were forced to create real plots and character development as opposed to the non-stop action that often marred Batman: Gotham Knights). Alas, the changes completely alter the intent of the flashback story and the resulting turmoil, which is to explain how The Joker got his final revenge on Batman by driving his foe's "son" to commit murder. Not only does Batman live with the guilt of having been somewhat responsible to allowing the three-week long torture of his son, partner, and friend, which in turn drove that child to murder, but he also must deal with the fact that he is in some, small way grateful (in my opinion, having seen the uncut version) that Tim's actions allowed The Joker's blood to stain Tim's hands, instead of Bruce's. The big question is, which version will be applied to the Animated Continuity? When the events are mentioned, be it in a future episode or a comic book, will the Joker meet his end at the hands of his own clumsiness (slipping on water? C'mon!), or at the hands of a confused, agonized, terrified twelve year old child? Scott Mendelson
They never did write Tim Drake right by Drath	Nov 28th, 2000 06:51:19 PM
They wrote Jason Todd but called him Tim Drake(a real betrayal IMNSHO), and irony of ironies, this Robin SHOULD have killed the Joker instead of Drake. It just pisses me off that people who supposedly know Bruce Wayne so well could get Tim Drake so wrong. At least Batman Beyond can be ignored continuity speaking. And yeah, this censorship is shit since this IS a video release. I'm not surprised a watered down version appeared in this day and age, but with no mention of the original version being distributed is not a good sign. DVD Special Edition, WB! Make it and shut up!
Copies for sale by dry	Nov 28th, 2000 06:57:57 PM
I'm not selling any, but imagine my surprise when I was walking down the street in downtown Karachi (Pakistan for the less informed amongst you), when lo and behold, there it was...just lying there looking at me, a VCD copy of the "original, unedited/unbutchered" Batman Beyond Return of the Joker. Much to the shock of the store owner (grown men buying cartoons which such enthusiasm is a sign of worry here), I bought it straight away. There are still a couple of hundred copies left around here somewhere, so if anyone amongst you visits this side of the world and is interested in owning a copy, let me know, I'll direct you to the relevant shop. All this for a hefty sum of $1.50...and they threw in "Batman and Mr. Freeze" along with it. If you ask me...3rd world countries are strongly underrated.
Does that mean Canadian stores have the UNCUT version??! by Tall_Boy	Nov 28th, 2000 06:59:04 PM
someone answer this one. All I can say, is YAHOO, baby!
Relax already! It's just a cartoon! by Playkins	Nov 28th, 2000 07:04:25 PM
OK- Repeat after me... Batman is a cartoon. It is intended for a younger audience. Parents would flip out if their kid was watching a cartoon where a young crimefighter kills a villian with a gun. Batman is Warner Brothers' property. They can do WHATEVER they want with this character. If they choose to make it friendlier to a young audience, THAT IS THIER CHOICE AND RIGHT! They are not "Nazis". They are smart businessmen. With all the heat on entertainment because of violence, THEY DID A GOOD THING! Would you rather next time a kid shoots up a school the government does away with any even REMOTELY violent animation? How would you like to live without anime? Think about it and RELAX! You'll still get your Batman and it will still be good minus a few gunshots and questionable dialog.
Holy Bull$#!t, Batman! And a message to Playkins by Mr. Sartre	Nov 28th, 2000 07:17:30 PM
I'm glad someone was able to provide me with a bootleg to see the original because I'm not paying to see a watered down story. Artists should not have their work comprimised no matter what medium they are working under. and to PLAYKINS: Cartoons and comic books are no longer just for children. the following is a reprint from 10/04/00 talkback. I addressed to the poster known as "Village People" about this issue:-- Now, I won't insult you or anything, let's get that straight. I just find it narrow minded of you to believe that the cartoon and comic book mediums are solely childish affairs. Given, this may have been their initial purpose (I have not done extensive research on it) but both mediums have expanded their subject matter and broadened their intended audiences thus becoming new ways of telling stories of all kinds. Take for example, as cliche as it is, Japanese anime: there are all types of animation for all tastes. Whether you're a child, a teenager, or an adult, the medium of animation should be able to offer something for everyone. The reason some people decide to do more adult themed subjects with animation lies in that fact that it is much easier to manipulate drawn pictures than it is to manipulate things in the real world. Animation opens numerous visual and fantastical possibilities for storytellers and film makers. Animation makes it possible for truly dynamic and impossible visuals and movements to be accomplished safely and cost effectively. Additionally, we notice the same thing with comic books. Titles like THE WATCHMEN, SANDMAN, PREACHER, and FROM HELL are not aimed at children by any means. These are all genuine attempts at using another medium as a storytelling device. I personally think it's commendable for writers like Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman or Garth Ennis to transcend those trappings people associate with the medium they are working in and redefine what a comic book has the potential to be. They have crafted masterful stories and breathed a new air of maturity and artistic expression into something dismissed as mere child's play. This is not to say that we should phase out all of the childish aspects of these two mediums, but rather we should embrace the expansion of the artistic endeavor. By your logic, where would poetry be? Initially it started as a means of telling myths and oral traditions in epic form. Poetry then evolved into more sophisticated means of story telling and conceptualizing, uses of metaphors and other writing devices. We notice another evolution as poetry embraces the idea of strict form (iambic pentameter, ryhme, etc.) then comes to reject form (modern poets, beat poetry, etc.). Why shouldn't other artistic mediums evolve as well, I ask you. I hope to have at least struck something in you. Hope to get a reply.-end- Even as WB may have "done the right thing" for children, they have done a horrible thing as well: they've buckled to political pressure and undermined the vision of an artist. This is foolishness without further explination needed. Must go to class. Take care
Playkins.. by Wesley Snipes	Nov 28th, 2000 07:35:44 PM
I would normally agree with you, but I've seen the uncut version and it is a GREAT movie. Reading the list of cuts, it's clear that the best, most effective parts of the film have been edited or removed. If you've never seen the movie before, then no big deal right? But if you have, then you will realize what you are missing with the edited version. You have to experience it first before you realize what you've lost. *** On another note, I have a hard time believing WB stood to lose anything by releasing the uncut version. I think it's just irrational fear on the part of the execs. But that's Hollywood for you.
To Playkins...... by Praetor	Nov 28th, 2000 07:43:55 PM
Dear Mr. Jackass ( stop me if I'm going too fast ) I read your comments with interest. It is always refreshing to be told what is suitable and adult for me to watch. Your political career will be meteoric I feel. I don't mean to cough up a fish bone of contention, but the thing is, and you may want to sit down at this point, NOT EVERYONE SHARES YOUR EXPERIENCES AND DESIRES. I appreciate that experience is largely based upon enviroment, and perhaps you come from a close family that thinks, sounds and gosh, may even look similar to one another, but many of us differ quite surprisingly in our tastes. THIS IS WHAT MAKES LIFE INTERESTING. Still look on the bright side; you certainly have the political climate on your side, so look forwards dewy-eyed to many a grey safe anodyne day. Sniff...
Whoa, whoa, whoa! by James_O'Nasty	Nov 28th, 2000 08:13:30 PM
Calm down, all of you! Playkins has a valid point, but so does Sartre, Snipes and Praetor. What I don't get is why the money-grubbing sons of bitches at the Dubba Dubba didn't release both versions. Obviously us fanboys won't buy the edited sugary version, and all the parents wouldn't buy the full version, no matter how much their children love Batman. By releasing both, they could have cleaned up!!!! Those assholes for censorship preach family values, but isn't taking away their right to choose a violation of that??? Eh? Oh well...love, peace, and chicken grease.
My Rebuttal, Mr.Sartre, Praetor (please read) by Playkins	Nov 28th, 2000 08:23:46 PM
Nice dissertations. I never said comic books and animation are SOLELY chilish affairs. What I said was that cartoons are INTENDED for a young audience. There's a difference. What it means is that Saturday Morning Cartoons are marketed to children. If they weren't you'd see promos for them during prime-time TV and newscasts. I can only remember seeing commercials for cartoons in primetime during "TGIF" or other shows intended for youngsters. You will not see me argue with you about comic books. I AM a collector (of the titles you speak of no less) and I also enjoy cartoons and animation. Fact is, ALL of the cartoons on WB are aimed at kids, Batman and Superman included. With that in mind, I think it was a smart decision on WB's part to take questionable content out of the film. I absolutely agree that there are many cartoons that contain material meant more for adults to UNDERSTAND. There are umpteen examples of this (Animaniacs, Batman, The Tick, Pinky and the Brain, Looney Toons and The Simpsons being the best). Realize that the reason these shows are so fun for (some) adults is that we can watch them and understand obscure references while ultimately getting a richer experience. I don't know about you, but I like being able to sit down with my 6 year old nephew and watch a cartoon without having to worry about "fast-forwarding" through something his parents WOULD NOT want him to see. Also, DON'T TRY TO TELL ME I WAS TELLING YOU WHAT WAS ADULT TO WATCH! You don't know me and obviously didn't understand the meaning of my post. And last time i checked, it was LEGAL for a company to do what they want with their INTELLECTUAL property. This means they have THE RIGHT as Americans to do what they want. That includes butchering a cartoon to make it appropriate for KIDS. And Mr. Sartre, I would NOT queston any form of entertainment as an art form. I AM a professional artist and agree with you completely with many of your points. But the other side of entertainment is BUSINESS. Oh, and you, Mr. Enigma and "Wesley Snipes" seem to be the only ones able logically debate without making personal attacks. Praetor, you have demonstrated a lack of maturity in this area. You don't know me. Stick with well though-out and logical opinions and I might respect them more.
No More Requests!! by Manifest@work	Nov 28th, 2000 08:25:31 PM
Please god no! I have over a hundred people asking for this thing now and there is no way i can pump that many out, nor do I have an inclination to start bootlegging as a business. please no more requests for this movie.
looking for uncut version by Macey	Nov 28th, 2000 08:39:21 PM
If anyone happens to have the uncut version, I would be interested in obtaining a copy. Please e-mail. Thank you.
An aside by Edward Nigma	Nov 28th, 2000 08:41:38 PM
Well, I think we all know that it's a grave injustice that WB is so lacking in vision (and the desire to increase their profits!) as to release an uncut version of the film... But since I already own the uncut version I really couldn't be bothered beating myself up over it... But something else has been bugging me - In Australia (Yay!), Batman Beyond has been re-badged as Batman of the Future. Erm... why? Anyone know?
Who is behind this abomination? Is it you Lorenzo?! by docsisx	Nov 28th, 2000 09:09:20 PM
Of all the cartoons in all of the world they had to go fuckin' with this one.
To: Playkins From: Sartre by Mr. Sartre	Nov 28th, 2000 09:17:08 PM
I see your point, actually. "Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker" in it's original form is not really the type of material that is suitable for children say 3-12or13. I've seen it and think it's a really dark tale but at the same time a compelling, well-told one. It really depends on the maturity level of the child. I still think a comprimise can be struck. Since WB probably noticed there's a great demand from adult/mature teen audiences for the uncut version, there should have been an uncut version of the film made readily available for those who want it. I don't know the sales figures for the "Spawn: Animated Series" but noticed that, when working retail at a video store, people who wanted the edited version of the series bought the edited version while people who wanted the uncut version bought the uncut. Given, "Spawn" and "Batman Beyond" are fundamentally different (HBO late night show vs. WB afternoon/morning show), but it makes sense to cater to the diverse viewership that "Batman Beyond" attracts. This entire situation has made me wonder if "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm" met with similar difficulty when approaching release considering the violence that appeared in it. There was blood in "Mask of the Phantasm" and a good deal of mayhem as well as implied sex yet, to my knowledge, this all remained in that film and, incidentally, that movie was great. It wasn't great because of the violence and blood. It was great because it was compelling and well done. I suppose if politicians and numerous parent groups hadn't scapegoated the entertainment industry over current trends in violence, none of this would have happened and we'd have on store shelves "Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker (PG edition)" and "Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker (the uncut version)." But that entire issue of violence in media and violence in real life is another post all together, ain't it chuckles? Nice chatting with you. Watch the edited version with the nephew(s) and watch the uncut version with your pals. Take care.
A perfect example of why Transformers: The Movie kicks such glo by LSHB	Nov 28th, 2000 09:18:30 PM
I mean, how many well-known and loved Transformers bite it in that movie? Ummm, nearly all of them? _That_ is why the film still has such a huge draw on places such as Amazon.com for both the VHS and the DVD. Making something 'safe' for kiddies means only they will watch it, and likely once and then never again. There's one studio executive in the world, and he has a million faces.
Thank goodness for promo tapes. by MajorTom	Nov 28th, 2000 09:28:47 PM
Even though I have a promo tape of the uncut version of the movie, I intended to buy the DVD when released. But I won't be buying this travesty. ATTENTION WARNER BROTHERS: IF YOU RELEASE THE ORIGINAL, WE WILL BUY IT. Anyone who wants to see the real movie is welcome to e-mail me.
Why God? Why? by greercd	Nov 28th, 2000 09:29:51 PM
Damnit! I just thought they were re editing. Just changing some camera angles. Bastards. Oh well. I've got over a dozen people I talking to about bootlegs and If the WB EVER releases an uncut version I'll deffentally buy it but the watered down version I'll only rent. I'll give it a chance. But, has anyone else noticed that the WB screws fans A LOT. Look at Buffy: Graduation Day part 2 for an example. (Yeah I know I rambled).
See, this is why I like anime. by Sith Lord Jesus	Nov 28th, 2000 09:31:09 PM
Much of it is NOT aimed at kids, the viewer is assumed to be an adult who can handle adult themes. To hell with WB; they're only cutting their own throats. And as for Playkins . . ."live without anime?" Excuse me? You're not assuming that the government might do this, are you? Are you talking about the same Federal Government that can't keep crack, heroin, meth, illegal guns and Allah-knows-what-else off of the streets? Seems to me they have their hands a bit full as it is.
Of course not by Playkins	Nov 28th, 2000 09:38:28 PM
Of course I don't think the government could actually "Outlaw" anime, but they could try to enforce an idiotic "Tipper Gore" on it. I wouldn't want that, either.
Tipper Gore? by greercd	Nov 28th, 2000 09:44:30 PM
What do you mean by a tipper gore?
by Westrum	Nov 28th, 2000 09:45:51 PM
my only criticism about all the talkbacks is when one guy said "relax, it's only a cartoon"...as if cartoons are by nature directed towards children only? So I suppose only live action films can be geared towards adults? cartoons can't? the original batman comic was directed towards mature audiences. The 90's batman shows have all been geared as "family". that is, kids can see them and not pick up any "nasty habits" (or whatever the hell people think they'll pick up from it) yet adults can appreciate it for what it is. On this same note, movies like Antz work as "family" films because kids can get it, but there's enough there so that adults can appreciate it too. On that note, the 90's batman shows are not "children's" shows, but are for everyone. kids see them, adults see them. besides that, most of the people here aren't so pissed off about the movie itself being butchered as they are about the very IDEA that any artform can be butchered in such a way in this supposedly "free" country. 'Nuff said. America sucks. let's all go to switzerland where we can toke and screw nordic blondes.
by theprinceofspace	Nov 28th, 2000 09:46:59 PM
I think he/she means apply ratings and warning stickers to it like Tipper and her PMRC gang had them do to records.
by greercd	Nov 28th, 2000 09:49:05 PM
Hey, I got no problem with warning labels but a lot of record labels would drop artist because of public stigma form parents groups (Just like the WB decided to take a preemptive strike with ROTJ)
now here i am stuck with foot firmly in mouth... by Westrum	Nov 28th, 2000 09:53:41 PM
now I've read playkin's response...he makes sense. I hate the notion that paul dini's original idea for batman may not be sold widely, but in the end warner brothers owns it. it's just like the suits cutting up Welles' "magnificent ambersons"...maybe it was great before the cuts, but it's not bad after the cuts. in the end, they have that right because they own it. i'm still pissed at them though. and one thing i still disagree with playkin about is the whole "saturday morning marketing"...i mean, i can't think of many 8 year olds who watch prime time tv, but i know a lot of adults who watch morning tv. it just makes sense to stick it in the mornings. this doesn't mean it's being marketed at kids. it just means that you're more likely to hit more viewers here.
Anybody been to eBay lately? by theprinceofspace	Nov 28th, 2000 09:54:10 PM
Specifically: http://search.ebay.com/search/ search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=Get Result&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaE ndSort&query=Return+of+the+Jok er
I know i brought this on myself by Manifest@work	Nov 28th, 2000 10:12:16 PM
but please god stop sending requests. I am hereby never going to try to help a fellow nerd out because I have now learned about how much of a hassle it is. how do you do it harry?
Hmmmm by DarkPrinceVegita	Nov 28th, 2000 10:20:00 PM
I was just wondering one thing. Do you think if BB:ROTJ would of gone to the theater, that they would of made the cuts they did? (uhhg im tounge tied) P.S. Imagine if WB had interest of releaseing the Gen 13 movie. (Great movie by the way, sucks its never gonna come out)
"Putz" is unacceptable? WHAT?! by Sorcerer	Nov 28th, 2000 10:42:47 PM
And "fart" too? Who owns Time Warner, the 700 club?
Uncut Canadian versions? by KSisko	Nov 28th, 2000 10:55:20 PM
Does anyone know if the uncut version is available in Canada? P.S. F the WB...
You know the funny thing is....... by Wheel99	Nov 28th, 2000 11:09:55 PM
No one would have said jack shit about this film if it were released intact. The fact is that the politicans who are looking to crack down wouldnt even think to look at a cartoon. This screams of the self imposed CCA code put on comics.
Don't Run To eBay Just Yet. . . by Cowblaster	Nov 28th, 2000 11:27:38 PM
They don't really like it when people try to sell bootlegs of movies, or copies that have been recalled by movie makers. My point being that eBay doesn't let auctions for Return of the Joker last too long before they cancel them. I sure hope that if you DO feel the need to buy this movie, don't be taken advantage of by some sleeze that wants to charge an arm and a leg to a desperate fan. If anyone reading this has a true, clean version of this movie, I beg you to offer copies of it for FREE (or, at the very least, really, really CHEAP). THAT would be a good way to hit Warner where it hurts! If every Batman fan already owned a copy of this movie, there'd be absolutely NO REASON to buy the edited version! Even if it is on DVD! Don't get me wrong, if Warner Bros. ever does decide to release the uncut version, I will whole-heartedly buy it, and I advise everyone else to do the same, but don't patronize their butchering of this great movie buy giving in to their bullshit.
Stupid WB! by bluedevilnight	Nov 28th, 2000 11:38:39 PM
Ok, WB has just earned the top spot on my revenge list. There's no way I'm going to buy the edited version and I'm going to urge not only my friends but any consumer in general not to buy it. I'm guessing/hoping that WB will issue an unedited version on DVD. Think about it, WB doesn't want any bad publicity from parents around Christmas time, so they release the edited version to appease parents/advisory groups. They might be planning on releasing an unedited version 6 months down the line, but they don't want to break the news to anyone lest they hurt their sales of the edited version. Plus, they can release the unedited version at a time with little fanfare, knowing that fans will be on top of things to get it. So, the best thing to do is to just outright not buy the edited version heading our way on Dec 12. Don't support that censored piece of disrespecting crap. Save your money for an edited version that may be released later on. If no such version is due, then start up the protests; write mass e-mails and letters, bash the WB on all venues of the Internet. I'm really pissed about the goddamn rapist WB, but keep your fingers crossed for an unedited version. I think it is a distinct possibility. Til then, try to stay cool. It's too early to assume that WB is screwing loyal fans COMPLETELY.
Yet Even More on the Subject by Chaka!	Nov 28th, 2000 11:42:43 PM
It's hard to say what is "right" in this subject matter. After all, there are many valid points: 1) Batman Beyond is in fact a kids show. While there are adults who enjoy it, the show is made for, and marketed towards children (Where Spawn was ALWAYS marketed for adults in an adult timeslot for example). If you remember, the original Batman: TAS was originally created for adults, with primetime in mind. The show aired on Sunday nights on Fox, where it did rather poorly in the ratings, thus forcing it back to a "kids" focus. Even Mask of the Phantasm, which was a more adult look at Batman using an animated medium tanked ... grossing only about 700 thousand domestically. My point is that Batman has survived all these years mainly due to it's younger audience ... after all, when it was aimed at adults, it received no support. I guess you can understand why WB would be out to please their larger audience. 2) To play devil's advocate: Despite being aimed at kids over the past few years, the character Batman is enjoyed by those from age 2 to age 90. So while the brunt of the stories and TV shows should very well be aimed at kids, it goes without saying that the older market shouldn't be completely ignored. A direct to video release is the perfect forum to air such a story, as younger kids have no way to buy the tape themselves, and it's up to adults to know what they buy their kids ... and should hold no one responsible but themselves if they feel the programming is not appropriate (That's whay ratings are on boxes, right?) I guess no matter how you slice it, someone's going to be ticked off ... hopefully in the end though, WB will do the right thing and release two versions ... or maybe even make the mature version mail order only to prevent parents from "accidentally" buying it for their kids.
cuts suck ugh!! by Varakor	Nov 28th, 2000 11:46:18 PM
As far as i know, WB is making one HUGE mistake by not releasing B:ROTJ in it's original form. it would be much easier to just release it in both formats and i'll bet dimes to dollars which one will sell more and totally make the suits rethink what they are doing with the property. why not give the consumer the choice of owning which video? and don't they understand that because of this bootleggers and scammers are gonna be all over this like white on rice. isn't that what they would want to avoid? don't these people read message boards and such? does not what the people say and want have no meaning anymore? Damn shame i was really looking forward to an uncut version of BB:RTOF, i won't buy any other way i don't care how good the edited version is. where's a petition when u need one :o)
I won't let this happen by Critch Starblade	Nov 29th, 2000 12:21:05 AM
Those freaks at WB have ticked me off. I've stood all I can stands, and I can't stands no more! I have as part of my video library a .asf version of the UNCUT Batman beyond: Return of the Joker. How I got it? MIRC, knowing the right channel, and perservence. What I can do? Put it on a cd, and give it to anyone that wants one. You NEED to see this movie, it is the most awesome depiction of the Caped Crusader since Mask of the Phantasm, and you have to see it uncut. My ICQ is 18912448, my email is critch@maximillian.org. Contact me if you really want to see it, and we'll make arrangements. Thanks for your time.
ROTJ bootlegs by ledbetter51	Nov 29th, 2000 12:58:26 AM
I'll soon have an uncut boot (thanks to Critch), email me (jeffgragg@yahoo.com) or ICQ me (60724167), and we'll figure something out. If I get TOO many requests, I may not be able to get to everyone, but I'll try.
Well, guess I won't be buying this. Or renting it. But I'm not g by Dave_F	Nov 29th, 2000 01:03:05 AM
Sometimes I feel like such a goddamn Boy Scout, but I actually respect the ideas of intellectual property and copyright laws. Yes, Warner Brothers is being an asshole, but they're within their legal right. I'll boycott 'em and push for an uncut release, but I won't resort to piracy. Guess reading Batman comics and watching Batman cartoons have instilled some kind of ethics in me. Wish it was the same for more of you.
Another reason not to let TIPPER, LIEBERMAN and there anti-Holly by AtomoPrime	Nov 29th, 2000 01:36:03 AM
This and their past crimes of Censorship prove what kind of bleak future Hollywood and the First Amendment will have if these two yahoos get in...and this (no offense) is merely a cartoon!
With people already starting to boycott the edited version, what by Archangel972	Nov 29th, 2000 02:26:48 AM
Dini and Co. have stated time and time again that if Return of the Joker is successful in sales, then the Batman Beyond animated series will continue. This year is the last season as that is what the contract had apparently stated. I know that kids will still want to see this movie, and although the movie may very well be successful, I think its a shame that it had to be cut. I saw the unedited version a couple of weeks ago, and I'll admit that its much too violent for kids. Still, WB really should release this movie in two different versions. I know that they are worried that if they did such a thing, parents would be confused and buy the wrong version. Thus, WB would get a lot of complaints from angry parents. Still, the movie's edited version sounds absolutely horrible. Its one thing to make a minor change here and there, but to actually make cuts that alter certain scenes and plot points? That shouldn't be allowed. Oh and one more thing, the movie I saw had a very short running time. With these new edits, the film will probably clock in at a little more than an hour. Barely enough to fulfill a regular two-part episode. Absolutely pathetic WB.
CuteMX Free copies for those of us with fast download by JosephTDM	Nov 29th, 2000 03:02:48 AM
I downloaded a new internet file sharing program (CuteMX) and, like always, I did a search for Batman. Much to my surprise I came across about 5 people with the .26 gig sized file in question. It took me with my DSL line all of 2 hours to download the complete, uncut version. I'm sorry to those of you that don't have access to a faster download speed but, for those with availability at home or at work, it's free for the pickings.
Seriously... by Dave_F	Nov 29th, 2000 03:40:13 AM
...am I the only one who finds it ironic and disheartening that so many fans of Batman, famous crime fighter and doer of good deeds, are ready to become criminals themselves to pirate and distrubute copies of his adventures? That actually annoys me more than Warner Brothers' dick-headed decisions. Right, right, you're not murdering anyone, but you are essentially stealing. Don't delude yourself into thinking you're striking a blow against censorship. It's just good old-fashioned selfish thievery. Proud of that? Guess it just shows that most of you don't actually absorb any morality from the heroes you profess to love. I see a lot of hypocrites here. Fighting censorship with thievery? Real heroic.
Surprised? Am I F***. by Silencer	Nov 29th, 2000 04:22:20 AM
Hell you should've KNOWN this was going to happen from the very start of the project. If you've seen what most companies will do with the anime they import, a bit of butchery of their own titles shouldn't come as any shock at all... Just go read the comics, at least comic publishers are relatively unafraid.
Culturejamming wins every time by Grundy	Nov 29th, 2000 04:42:49 AM
Originally, comics were worth what you paid for them. This lasted up until about the point that all comics moved their price above two bucks. Now, multi-national conglomerates have overtaken what was once an interesting artform and commercially diluted it to the point of banality. No, a hero doesn't steal. On the other hand, a hero doesn't stand by as people die in a burning building. Batman, as an concept, means a lot to me. I hate DC for its apologist stance on the shitty movies made by The Cobbler (Schumacher) and how it has paid lip service to the folks keeping them in the chips every Wednesday by slipping us a pittance via DC Direct. There is nothing wrong with taking money out of the hands of the WB via bootlegging ROTJ in its uncut form. The politricksters are correct when they refer to a "culture war". Too bad that, digitally speaking, we have the neutron bomb. Destroy all the assholes and leave the toys standing. Dini, Timm and all the cast have been paid for their work. You are only robbing the robbers who sold the collective audience down the river long ago. Every kid I know could handle ROTJ. Hell, most kids I know could handle A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. A child is more resilent than any grown-up. Washington has no true interest in wounding the fastest growing portion of the economy (Entertainment). Hollywood is just uneducated enough to believe that the noise from within the Beltway means something. Labels, ratings, committees, hearings, blah, blah, blah. It's all a charade. Boot this movie until your fingers bleed. If you feel bad, give copies away this holiday season. This is the power you hold in your sweaty little palm. Executives are a cowardly, superstitious lot. Make them fear you - Be the Batman.
Bootlegs by HomegaMan	Nov 29th, 2000 07:19:37 AM
I told you guys to buy them last month. Now there aren't any left in the streets anymore. Sorry.
So stealing's okay as long as you "stick it to the man!", Grundy by Dave_F	Nov 29th, 2000 07:56:57 AM
What a convenient attitude. Batman threw guys like that in the slammer. Look, when you subvert moral absolutes a little, you destroy their entire meaning. Stealing from "bad people" gives you no moral high ground, no integrity at all. Your self-deluding logic of doing it to send Warner Brothers a message...take that logic only the slightest step farther and maybe we should be stealing merchandise from Warner Brothers stores, eh? That'll really show those heartless corporate bastards who the good guys are, right? Heaven forbid we protest through lawful means like boycotting and letter-campaigns. Nah, those methods require work and don't provide instant gratification. Never mind the fact that the poor box office returns and massive online criticism of "Batman & Robin" have already done an excellent job of telling Warner Brothers that fans are dissatisfied. Never mind that fan letter campaigns influenced Disney to push back "Princess Mononoke's" DVD release to include subtitles. And never mind that large-scale Internet protests resulted in the last draft of "Spider-Man" leaning away from organic webshooters and towards a compromise. Sure, those are all great examples of lawful protests working, but they don't get you a good bootleg copy of "Return of the Joker" right now, do they? That's the bottom line for you - greed, not justice. You say the concept of Batman means a lot to you, yet you'd sell out what he stands for for the sake of instant gratification. Personally, I don't think any fucking cartoon's worth giving up your integrity. I don't expect to persuade most of you bootleggers out there, because you'll be enjoying some good criminal profits while you delude yourself that you're doing something brave. Criminals are great at self-delusion. Just know that if Batman existed, he'd find your behavior abhorrent. Really think about that.
Something else to consider, Grundy... by Dave_F	Nov 29th, 2000 08:07:16 AM
Dini and Timm have been paid for their work on "ROTJ", but mass-bootlegging means they're less likely to be given work on future direct-to-video efforts. "Sorry boys, we were thinking of bringing you on board to cook up a Harley and Ivy video, but all those bootleg copies of 'Return of the Joker' means we can't be sure these things will turn a good profit. On the other hand, we're thinking of bringing 'Freakazoid' back to Saturday mornings if ya need some work..."
God damn you, Warner Brothers.... by XTheCrovvX	Nov 29th, 2000 08:55:19 AM
"I never thought it was possible, but this both sucks AND blows..."-Bart Simpson..................... Folks, i'd like to tell you a story...once upon a time, there was a cool network station for cartoons called the WB...they had great shows in the form of the animated Superman, Batman, Batman Beyond, and Men In Black....but darkness started to show its wicked head very soon, as an evil bitch called Pokemon moved in, and took over, and turned what used to be great storytelling for everyone into a feast of teen conservatism....Now, as I look upon the lineup of the WB, i see that all of the above except Batman Beyond has been axed in favor of "One full hour of Pokemon!", and the lineup is now totally "pre-teen oriented"....i shan't even mention the horrid bastard child travesty that is X-Men: Evolution.....and now, the crown jewel of the WB's fall from grace is here....and all sense in the kingdom is lost....... Now that the story's done, its time to let loose....I fucking despise the WB now....from the first minute i heard this project was getting a green light, i could've sworn i felt the hand of comic book greatness again...this movie was destined to rule over all as a God among animated movies, second only to the equally godlike Spawn animated series....and it was NEVER truly a kid's flick....neither was Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, either, and i remember very well how the WB nailed that movie's coffin fast....now its happening again, and not only have they nailed its coffin, but they took the dead body, and raped it to shit before they nailed it in.... This is definitely more proof that Warner Brothers is not worthy of the licenses they hold over their cartoons....they see them as being simply for children under 10, when it has been perfectly obvious for years how much of ther audience is purely adult....Paul Dini understood it, and gave us a masterpiece....now, months back, somebody gave us a review of the unedited cut..and the way it sounded was too excellent NOT to be fucked with...we saw that much coming...but what it seems they have done to the movie now is totally drained it of the factors that made it great...now, i'm not saying that i advocate violence, not in the least...but in this case, the violence is beneficial to many of the movie's characters...so now, because of this country's Columbine-instigated renewed attention to censorship, the mature audience has been screwed. So, here's what I suggest...if you've got a semi-revolutionary cell in your body, put it to good use, get an email, letter, carrier pigeon, brick through an executive's window to Warner Brothers, and tell them to get off their corporate conservative asses, and release the unedited cut, i don't give a damn how...."Revolution is my name..."
P.S. by XTheCrovvX	Nov 29th, 2000 09:03:54 AM
OH GOD, PLEASE!! I BEG OF SOMEBODY!!! ANY OF OF YOU GUYS BOASTING TO HAVE COPIES OF THE UNEDITED CUT(I'm still highly envious of you, by the way), PLEASE EMAIL ME!! I WANT...NAY, NEED...NAY, LUST FOR THIS VERSION BEFORE I EVEN GIVE HALF A RAT'S ASS FOR THE "RAPED" VERSION OF THE FLICK. THANK YOU, GOD BLESS!
P.P.S. by XTheCrovvX	Nov 29th, 2000 09:11:46 AM
I just made my way over to EBay...::shudder:: The last auction thats about to end for the unedited cut of the flick is at $130......Now, I don't know how great a bartering factor this is, but I have a copy of the Deftones' White Pony CD, the black limited edition version, and its signed by the entire band...I am very willing to trade this with anyone who has the unedited Batman. Of course, should that fail, if anyone needs a spare kidney, i'll trade that too...Thanks again...i think...::pets about to be auctioned kidney::
Bootleg... by ChimpSpank	Nov 29th, 2000 09:21:13 AM
Hey Harry, Maybe you can get your Bootleg buddy Joe Hallenbeck to sell some copies... Oh wait he's probably on his way to jail... GFY
WE MUST NOT TOLERATE THIS!!!!!!!! by Anarky Rulz	Nov 29th, 2000 09:40:33 AM
This is it. This is the last fucking straw. I'm calling for a revolution, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!!!!! You know, it's a sad day in America when Vince McMahon is the voice of reason. He said it best when he called the entertainment industry COWARDS for not standing up to the politicans. Who the hell do Warner Brothers think they are? If Bruce Timm and Paul Dini are reading this, I beg you, not just for your myriad of Bat-Fans out there, but for the sake of your artistic integrity, YOU MUST FIGHT THIS! You cannot allow your vision to be hacked to pieces due to political pressure! Orson Welles sacrificed all he had and all he was to get HIS vision of "Citizen Kane" on the screen. I call upon you to do the same. And for the rest of us, ORGANIZE, ORGANIZE, ORGANIZE!!!! Call your friends, family, neighbors, girlfriends/boyfriends, spouses, pets....ANYONE. This goes beyond "Batman," this is about our right to have our entertainment NOT BE REGULATED BY THE GOVERNMENT. If they can do this to a cartoon, what do you think is next? Is there anyway we can organize a PROTEST at Warner Brothers studios? Hell, maybe even in Washington! A "Million Geek March," perhaps? WE MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!! Anarky Rulz
Ethical responsibility by RenoNevada2000	Nov 29th, 2000 09:46:28 AM
While WB may be in their rights to edit RotJ in a blender as it appears they have done, I have to question whether it is ethical for them to do so. This project, like any other, had to go through several stages of approval from script to storyboards,etc. I think that the suits at the WB had plenty of time to voice any concerns over content then. Waiting until the last minute and then calling for changes in the final product seems at the least not very respectful of Timm, Dini and crew and at the most very unethical and a breach of good faith. Will the end result be Timm, Dini, etc be afraid to take storytellin chances again leaving us with rather bland, uninvolving work in the future? I certainly hope not. (I'm really tempted to go off on a Bill Hicks-ian rant about us being a nation of sheep, dumbed down by lowest common denominator entertainment product, but I'll save it for another day. . .)
organized offerings of screener copies by cuznjean	Nov 29th, 2000 09:47:37 AM
If you are one of the lucky souls who have access to a copy of the uncut screener copy of the film, and are interested in sharing with your fellow PO'd fans, please contact me at cousinjean@cybergeek.com. Maybe we can organize this effort and reduce the workload and still make it available to anyone who wants it; but don't bother if you're hoping to get rich off of your copy by charging a ridiculous amount of money. If that's your motive, then you're on your own.
Should I post... by iscariot	Nov 29th, 2000 09:51:38 AM
I'm kicking around the idea of putting a vcd file up for those that want it. Any ideas? I have the uncut version.
Refuse to buy their crap!!! by SvenOleThorson	Nov 29th, 2000 10:25:15 AM
The only way to prevent shit like this is to hurt them in the wallet.Don't buy it.I know everybody wants to see it and it'll be hard to resist just buying it anyway,but Don't!!!If they don't make money when they wuss out,then they will be more reluctant to wuss out.Just let the copies of their garbage rot on the shelf and wait.Hollywood is so desperate to sell anything that it will come out uncensored, unless they make a mint anyway.The most disgraceful thing about this whole deal was Warner Brothers making Paul Dini call and claim that he liked the new way better.That just shit on his reputation!Worse yet, some reviewer on this site(Harry?) talked to Dini and bought his full steaming load of a story and tried to feed it to us.
Big Question by xander_rules	Nov 29th, 2000 10:37:17 AM
As a long time fan of Paul Dini and the enitre Batman animated crew, I'm kind of torn as to what to do regarding purchasing ROTJ. I own a bootleg, but have had the DVD on order for months now. I figured there were just going to be a few cuts of the "torture" scene in the flashback, which I kind of understood, but the main reason I was going to buy the movie was to support the film's creators. The cuts are going to ruin this awesome movie, but I don't want to cheat Paul Dini or Bruce Timm out of any potential revenues, but I don't want WB to see any money off this movie murder. So that's the big ethical question, are bootleg owners obligated to buy the edited video? Harry? Any ideas?
Aye, but its hard to resist... by XTheCrovvX	Nov 29th, 2000 10:37:23 AM
Unlike some lucky bastards out there, not all of us were lucky enough to set eyes upon the unedited version....so the only way we even see the thing is the bastard version that hits the shelves on the 12th...chances are, I'll pray Blockbuster has it, I'll rent it, dub it, drop it, and continue to protest this travesty until the untouched version is in my hands(and by the looks of EBay, that could be a while....at this point, I'm with Anarky Rulz...this crap has to stop...and quite frankly, that Million Geek March might not be such a bad idea...Yo, Harry, think you can set that up?
Let's clarify something- by Playkins	Nov 29th, 2000 11:52:10 AM
I'm hearing alot of screaming about censorship. Let's clear this up. A company trimming it's OWN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY for the sake of making something kid-safe is NOT censorship. Censorship would be if the government stepped in and banned any release of questionable subject matter. Or, if it was required for WB to remove violent material BY LAW. What WB did was to show some restraint and release something that might have a broader range of appeal. That's just good business. Now if Tipper Gore came in and started requiring harsher ratings, an age limit on the purchase, or for anything in violation a content law to be removed, THAT would be censorship. Oh, and I DO think there should be an "Uncut" version released as well.
I'm Still HOPPING MAD!!!! by Anarky Rulz	Nov 29th, 2000 11:59:48 AM
I've tried to simmer down a little but.....HOT DIGGITY DAMN, I'M FLAMING PISSED!!!! You know, it's a pity that no politicans have the SACK to say to parents, "Well, maybe the entertainment industry shouldn't market certain things to children, but maybe if you guys did your jobs a little better, things like this wouldn't happen." With all of this talk about Columbine, I never ONCE heard any of the politicans mention about the fact that those two damn kids were making FREAKING BOMBS IN THEIR GARAGE!!! THAT THEY HAD SHOTGUNS OUT IN PLAIN FREAKING VIEW!!!! And for THAT, it's the industry's fault! I've always said that if some kid can be pushed over the edge by a movie or TV show or video game, then they're screwed up to begin with. When I was a kid, my parents made damn sure that I didn't spent all day playing video games or watching TV. My parents explained to me at an early age (and kept explaining through the years) that what I saw on TV wasn't real and that people shouldn't act that way in the real world. I don't object to a ratings system, nor do I object to groups telling parents, "Hey, maybe this isn't right for your kids," but dammit, that doesn't mean that it's not right for other people! Taking stuff like this off the air not the answer! It's not fair and, more importantly, is goes against every basic principle this country was founded upon. WE should be the one making choices, NOT the politicians. I hope that people from Warner Brothers are reading this. Like the politicians that THINK they run this country, YOU, the Warner Brothers executives, answer to US, the consumer and we are going to hold you accountable. You WILL hear our voice lound and clear. I am BEGGING you--and not just you, but the other studios--to get some courage and stand up for yourselves! IT HAS TO END. I'm still for my idea for organized protests. This isn't about Batman. It's about the future of entertainment. WHERE WILL IT END? If they can do this to a cartoon, don't you think that they'll keep going and going? Orson Welles fought against the movie studios who were about to fold to the will of an egomaniacal old man and the end result was that "Citizen Kane" went on to become the greatest American movie ever made. We must pick up the fight. This affects every one of you. Pat Buchanan was right eight years ago when he said that there was a culture war in this country. He's right. It is a war and stake is the heart of our very democracy. This is a war that we will not fight with guns or bombs, but with our ultimate weapons--our minds and our words. We must all become soliders. One person cannot make a difference, but one person plus one person plus one person...and so on, THAT makes a difference. We must all be united! "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn HERE, this far, no further!" ---Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Thank Buddah for Bootlegs. by BurninBullwinkle	Nov 29th, 2000 11:59:52 AM
This is REALLY hard for me to say, but as an owner of a copy of the screener I do plan to buy the butchered version of the BB movie. Why? Well two reasons. 1.) The fate of a fourth Batman Beyond season is said to be resting in how well this fiasco sells. 2.) I really want more films greenlighted. I want a Gotham Knights movie! I want a Superman movie! I want a JLA movie when that series gets going! I want a Supergirl movie! I want a Nightwing movie! I want more solo Batman! etc, etc, etc. BUT, I do plan to write to the WB and inform them of this travesty and how I would have gladly spent more for a disc with both versions. And I'll encourage them to see past this mistake and forge ahead with an uncut DVD. That said, the film in question was GREENLIGHTED as a PG-13 equivalent. That is what was delivered. If WB hadn't authorized this film the way they had, then it would have been fine. The WB execs are tards, but they could at least be honest. If they weren't going to put out an adult themed BB movie,they should have said so in the first place so Dini, Timm & Co. could have angled the story diffently like they did with Mask of the Phantasm (The best Bat film of all time, hands down.) So, I encourage everyone to get the film, but not to stop your level of protest. And, if at all possible, see the uncut version of the film. It is remarkable. (In the words of Joss Whedon, "Bootleg the puppy.")
One Question.... by Anarky Rulz	Nov 29th, 2000 12:08:08 PM
Does anyone know if the Canadian versions offered on eBay are the uncut versions? Not that I'd ever advocate anyone breaking the law, citizen. ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! Ron
One Question.... by Anarky Rulz	Nov 29th, 2000 12:08:15 PM
Does anyone know if the Canadian versions offered on eBay are the uncut versions? Not that I'd ever advocate anyone breaking the law, citizen. ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! ORGANIZE! Anarky Rulz
What the hell is Batman doing in ROTJ anyway? by Pallando Blue	Nov 29th, 2000 12:30:57 PM
I mean, the Ewoks are bad enough, but this kind of crossover stuff is plain stupid. "Ultimate Edition" indeed! Lucas just can't stop monkeying around with 'em can he? ;)
WB remains spine-less jellyfish I see by 2GOLD	Nov 29th, 2000 01:10:38 PM
What a bunch of rejectful cowards that those punks at the WB have become. Big Brother says it has a problem with their characters development and WB bows down to lick the stick! This is just the start people, say goodbye to any chance of another Batman movie with a harder edge, that just died a horrible death. Batman was never a comic for the weak minded, comics in general were never for the weak minded. Characters DIE in the comics but they aren't allowed to die anywhere else cause it may hurt the children. SCREW THE CHILDREN! They are little bastards with no morals cause mommy and daddy are punks who can't stand up to the little satanic demons to stop them. They turn on the electric babysitter and walk away to do something else, god forbid that parenting be a full-time thing LIKE IT USED TO BE!! Today's parents are for the most part jokes and the rest of the nation is being FORCED to pick up the slack for their laziness and 'not my problem' attitude about their kids. It's time those without children stood up and said, "We've had enough of your BS, either take care of the little bastard or lock it in the closet!" No more is what I say, no more taking care of other people's problems...who's with me YEA or NAY!!!!
uncut version details!!! by batmanbeyond69wu	Nov 29th, 2000 01:24:01 PM
email me batmanbeyond69wu@aintitcoolmai l.com and i can tell you where you can purchase the screener. as clear as can be, both sound and video. thanks, and i appreciate it fellow fanboys!!!!!!!!
Uh, Iscariot? by James_O'Nasty	Nov 29th, 2000 02:11:45 PM
YES YES YES YES PLEEEEEEEEASE!!!!! Thanks. Love, Peace, and Chicken Grease
JosephTDM by Cruiser66	Nov 29th, 2000 03:15:57 PM
Hey, took yer advice and went to cuteMX and downloaded the .26gig file...27 minutes, got cable. BUT,all I get is sound and the auto plug-in doesn't work...so...which veiwer do you use to run this .26gig.avi file. Gotta see this thing. Let me know man.
A retraction of my last post: I have to laugh. by BurninBullwinkle	Nov 29th, 2000 03:35:17 PM
Let me get this straight... Pokemon has already been shown to be in a decline. Just look how the last movie did compared to the first one. Yet, instead of sticking it out with the team that has brought them critical acclaim and bazillions of dollars by providing three series of such quality that they will be rerun and treasured by DC fans until the end of time, they are bringing in a gazillion Pokemon ripoffs. Now the irony. The other thing they've been throwing out on their network is low grade attempts to cash in on Batman Beyond's success. Yet, they've cancelled BatBey whether the movie sells well or not, which they've really messed up because of how they chopped it up. rubs forehead. I knew, with a couple exceptions, WB had some dumb-ass bastards in charge of their animation department, but this is just plain bottom-of-the-barrel Beverly Hillilies stupid. They cancelled Batman/Superman adventures, they blew their chance at a mega-hit with Iron Giant (and will most likely mess up Osmosis Jones), they nearly destroyed MotP, Delayed SubZero solely because of the feature films worries it'd make Batman and Robin look terrible in comparison (and... it DOES!), they chop up ROTJ and now this. I am at my wits end with these people. They wouldn't know brilliance if it bit 'em in the ass and pulled their intestines through their sphincter. Since this means we will likely not see any more original straight to video features, either (unless the Subzero boys are still around, and I don't think they are) I'm not gonna buy that piece of crap disc. Fuck 'em. I hope by all that is holy someone buys the rights to these characters away from them, but it'll never happen. They'll continue to rape them and the looney toons until there are no more holes then dump the bodies. I loved ya Bats & Supes. May you rest in peace.
WB Network Deserves to go under by X-Girls	Nov 29th, 2000 03:47:43 PM
They're begging for it, and with BB cancelled, we have no reason to support them. Morons at WB, combined with Entertainment Tonight and Entertainment Weekly keep feeding the public the sterotype that anything remotely to do with comics must be dumb. Look at EW's review of X - just fan hatred, 'I'm better than this' attitude and weak disses (The Holocaust scene was too 'smart' for the film, the only good thing was the dialogue between Charles and Erik, it was immature the entire way through, BS! It's not trying to be a full-on drama!). Ah, fuck their small, limiting minds. WB is comprised of such unbelievable lackwits- imagine if an actual fan oversaw this project. They've messed up too many times and burned down too many bridges for nothing, when are their boss' going to get new employees?
to 'Dick Grayson' by X-Girls	Nov 29th, 2000 03:50:23 PM
I'd love to read what else was censored, if you would re-watch the movie and list it, I would very much appreciate it, but do it only if you wish.
Parental Advisory Sticker by X-Girls	Nov 29th, 2000 04:03:04 PM
Nowadays bands and artists use that sticker as a fucking badge of honor, I doubt a lot of them would be using the words without it, thanks Tipper, you walking &&&^#(#. Why does Batman have to be so watered down, he's got to be as offensive as Bugs Bunny for some reason, you just can't release the REAL Batman:Beyond movie? Fuck you WB
Batman Beyond (ROTJ) by justaj	Nov 29th, 2000 04:28:35 PM
Okay the cute MX worked for me. BUT i had to upgrade to Windows Media player 7.0. The guy encoded it a funny way. (as much as i hated to) the sound is pretty good...the picture gets a little pixelated at times but overall its not bad. And if all you really want to do is see the movie the way it was supposed to be seen (as opposed to make money off it) then its perfect. -Aj
Aaaargh! by Anton_Sirius	Nov 29th, 2000 04:31:01 PM
I can't stand it any more. If I see the phrase "too violent for kids" one more time I'm going to puke blood. Does it occur to none of you that maybe kids DON'T need to be 'protected' from every last little scrap of remotely offensive material? WB are notoriously gutless cowards, so I don't suppose I could have expected any better from them. The real bastards here are groups like the PTC who use their bully pulpits to target whatever marginalized group they think they can get away with villifying, thus creating an environment where gutless cowards like WB shy away from anything that might become the next target. Children are adults in the making, and need to be taught how to protect THEMSELVES when they grow up. And you can't protect yourself against something you've never seen before. As far as I'm concerned, shielding your child from violent entertainment is a form of child abuse. That's the real crime being committted here.
1st time poster by Drater	Nov 29th, 2000 05:04:02 PM
no longer am i an aicn virgin - now i have posted something... ok - that's out of the way. i am sooooo glad i have a friend working in a local comic book store - a friend who recognized my need for the uncut version of ROTJ and gave me an original copy of it. go to hell time-warner - i have a screener and i refuse to buy your politically correct version. i was planning on buying it for every Bat-fan in my family for x-mas - which added up to quite a sum of change in time-warners' pockets. but forget that idea. i won't waste my money on butchered products. my ten year old brother watched it with me and i asked him after it was over if he found it violent. he said "no." then again this is a kid who watches slasher-flicks when the rest of the fam is in bed. he still runs behind something big and fluffy if something scary comes on. unfortunately, i have no means to dub the copy i own or i would gladly dub it for any and all. but you better believe it when i say that the moment dvd burners become affordable - i'm burning that mother onto a disk and THEN warners (i.e.: wastes of pathetic monkey flesh) - i'll have the last laugh.
Batman Beyond: ROTJ UN-CUT!!! by Brinn71	Nov 29th, 2000 06:36:45 PM
Hey folks, me and my wife just finished watching Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker that I downloaded from www.cutemx.com ( the whole film is there, just download it for free! It took 2 hrs with my cable connection and its WORTH IT!!! GOOD LUCK!!). I must say it was nothing but incredible; the best animated Batman ever! It is sad that they decided to cut it to pieces. The story by Dini and Timm was solid and grabs you from the get-go. The animation is by TMS (the guys who do Cyber 6) and is F#&*ING nicely done. The acting- EXCELLENT! Mark Hamil ROCKS!! This movie is something all fanboys should watch! You won't be disappointed! My brain feels the best its been since that Heavy Metal 2000 trauma. The losers that made that 'movie' should take lessons from these guys! I will be buying this on DVD IF and ONLY IF they ever release it UN-CUT! Do not rent or buy the video- its butchered! Not just censored, but CHANGED!! I read the list of cuts here on AICN (please DON'T UNTIL YOU SEE THE FILM!) and I will say the motivations of all the characters are dropped and the story changes for the worse! Utter crap, like something the rest of the lesser studios put out. For all those people that bid on the Canadian VHS copy of the film on EBay, my condolences-our Canadian copy is EDITED! We didn't get the un-cut copy of Batman like Transformers: The Movie (Spike swear). Sure, Batman wouldn't approve of me getting this movie for free but hey- the WB can release it UN-CUT ON DVD AND THEN I'LL BUY IT!! Until then, they wont get my money or support! Thanks a bunch Harry for giving us this information! AICN RULES!! And for all you freaks that were in Chicago with me who saw the preview Paul Dini showed us and think they know the story? THE JOKE'S ON YOU!! ;) Brinn71
GET OVER IT!!! by Playkins	Nov 29th, 2000 07:51:47 PM
Come on!!! Why are you all getting so angry about a damn Batman cartoon?!? If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT! That is what will send the strongest message to WB. Better yet, dont buy it and write an actual PAPER letter to Warner Brothers marketing dept. telling them (calmly and consisely) that you no longer plan on purchasing the film. Just stop this inane bantering about something so unimportant!
CuteMX fix by JosephTDM	Nov 29th, 2000 09:10:23 PM
The file (.26 gig) on CuteMX is the Divx form. You will either need to upgrade to windows media player 7 or, the easy fix, just install the codec file. Do a search for divx(has nothing to do with the now defunct circuit city deal) and you should come across a few websites that have the file. It's not that hard to find and it's only about a quarter of a meg, if that. I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry.
thank god for my unedited screener copy by Frank Black	Nov 29th, 2000 09:17:32 PM
When I heard that Warner Bros. was going to fuck up this movie, a movie I was dying to see, I made a call to a distributor friend of mine and obtained an advanced screener copy of the brilliant, better than most theatrical releases, "Return of the Joker". I have watched it with friends so many times we can quote it. I would love to distribute copys of this to everyone and their brother to screw Warner Bros., a company that has ruined so many wonderful pictures with their censorship. If I had the resources to do this, I would in a second, because to keep the unedited version from the fans is simply a crime.
I don't know if this is funny or sad by Pseudonym	Nov 30th, 2000 05:32:53 AM
Yes, the cuts suck. I'm mad WB made them, but how does that justify stealing copies of the original by buying bootlegs? If you want to call the cuts censorship, fine, but don't use it as the reason for buying bootlegs. Simply put, you guys buying bootlegs are doing so because you want something (to see the uncut movie). People rob liquor stores because they want something (money). You guys are only different from the guys Batman beats up because you're stealing something different (and probably don't have to be armed to get it). It's histerical to sit back and think of you guys sitting back watching a movie you basically stole about a man that takes down criminals and thieves. Wait a minute, actually that's kind of sad.
Actually, Playkins . . . by Sith Lord Jesus	Nov 30th, 2000 07:39:30 AM
. . .ratings labels on anime wouldn't bother me at all--it would make it easier for parents to not accidentally pick up a copy of UROTSUKUDOJI (sp?) or CREAM LEMON thinking it's just the Japanese version of TINY TOONS. And as for "get over it!!". . .YOU get over it. This is a message board, and the subject is Warner Brother's butchering of BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER. Maybe you're new here, but on message boards people tend to express their views, sometimes rather strongly (as witnessed whenever the subject is oh, say, a Spike Lee movie). Harry doesn't really moderate these things, despite what the little blue column to the right of the Talkback composition window says. If you can't handle it, then you shouldn't come here.
So much for a "FEW SECONDS OF DELETED FOOTAGE" by Helos	Nov 30th, 2000 08:44:47 AM

how to go from avi to mpeg? by iscariot	Nov 30th, 2000 09:18:08 AM
I'm not an amateur at this, but ehenever I encode it, it skips and looks generally like crap. Any suggestions?
A plea to my fellow geeks... by IceMonkey	Nov 30th, 2000 09:40:25 AM
If any of you have a copy of this on VHS PLEASE email me. I will buy it. And Harry, why don't you call your good buddy Mr. Dini and ask him what the Hell happened here? My email is tobin555@aol.com or elguapo555@aol.com.
Playkins...maybe you don't relate to the interest/hype in the de by The Killer-Goat	Nov 30th, 2000 11:15:46 AM
...when, for the first time in history, Batman's contemporary persona was brought to the Network animated screen in the RIGHT way, reflecting what was dark and tragic in the comics. It was a success story in itself for having accomplished such a feat. Yes, the movie success boosted the publicity, but the stories were not based on the cinematic themes as everyone implies. Consider that this movie is the ultimate culmination of the struggle of the Dark Knight and his "clan" with the Joker for the last 10 years. This movie found the ultimate, perfect voice and story to portray that finale in a manner that not even 4 --count 'em, FOUR-- frickin' franchise movies could not do right! A team of artists and storywriters in America AND Japan comes so close to accomplishing a milestone in American animation history that matches some of the Japanese adult interest in anime films, and it's chopped before public release. If it were only a matter of watching the film and saying "ehhh, cool flick, what's on next?", well I guess we wouldn't be anticipating Star Wars: Ep 2 so much, eh? The difference being that Lucas has final say, and if he cuts anything from the final edit it's HIS choice as the creator. Dini, Timm et al, had little choice in the decisions for BB:ROTJ. Being a professional artist like a lot of the populace (fans included) you seem to imply that art for business is simply..."business". Do the work and get paid. But the Dini/Timm team had a lot more impetus and vision beyond "just getting paid", and that passion carried over 10 years to build a revolutionary interpretation of Batman (and Superman) that a LOT of people appreciated. I've seen nothing in any of the other competing animation series' that we've sampled here in America to match that presence, momentum and enduring continuity.
Screener copies for sale! by Aunty-WB	Nov 30th, 2000 11:40:25 AM
For more info, see similar post on most recent AICN, BB:ROTJ talkback. Or, email auntywb@yahoo.com
To the asshole who said "America Sucks..." by TradSka	Nov 30th, 2000 12:20:37 PM
If I could afford it, I'd pay for you and your kind to move to Switzerland. I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing spoiled, immature assholes saying how "America Sucks" and that it's "supposedly a 'free' country." Of course it's a free country, you cocksmoker, regardless of how many edits a studio makes to one of its movies. Perhaps if you're dissatisfied with the level of freedom you're given in this country you might want to spend a year or two in someplace warm and cozy like, oh, say, the former Soviet Union, where you can enjoy such freedoms as waiting in line for a few hours to get a single loaf of bread to feed your entire fucking family for a week. While you're at it, why don't you go visit one or two African nations whose villagers are starving because their fasict governments refuse to release the tons of stockpiled foodstuffs they've got squirreled away. While you're there, you can ask them how repressed they'd feel if they were allowed to live in America but were being forced to buy the edited version of the latest Batman film. I'm sure that the inclusion of the word "fart" an extra time or two in that film is of particular concern to them. The fact of the matter is that, in this country, you have far more freedom that you know what to do with, and if the only way you know to deal with that is to complain about what you don't have then the rest of us would be better off without you.
So are we going to start an email campaign or what? by ThereIsNoSpoon	Nov 30th, 2000 12:30:38 PM
Harry's always bragging about how many people's ear's he's got in the biz, isn't there someone we can harass? Is there a batman TAS fansite that can instruct everyone to boycott this movie until they show us the whole movie? We (online fangeeks) got the Mouse to give us the Japanese dialogue track on the Princess Mononoke DVD. HBO released two versions of Spawn in regular and unleaded (PG-13) versions. Someone at WB has to have the brains to know that they will be able to squeeze a few more bucks out of this pony by giving us what we want. Hey, maybe that was they're plan all along - after we've all given up and bought the G-rated version, they'll finally release a director's cut like two years from now! God they make me sick! Jesus Bruce and Paul are probably losing their hair over this! I understand that they need to make your profits, but they are an entertainment company! For the love of movies, can't they make money by offering us cool stuff, instead of denying it from us!
and the irony being that by enigma	Nov 30th, 2000 02:07:42 PM
this is a product made for the american public presented in a way they can lap up with smile son their faces confident that kids will not grow up and kill their class mates with the rifle kept over there on the table. oh and btw, that was sarcasm. anyway, i know not all maericans are like that, hell i like america , a lot actually for your average limey but all stereptypes are based on reality, unfortunately. What is important here, is not all these dialogue changes, who cares if they change kill to ice, or whatever, personaly, 'ice him' sounds cooler, pun intended. My only peeve is that they changed how joker gets 'defeated'. THe whole point was that robin went over the edge and shot him, having the joker kill himself so to speak....but does robin push him in the water maybe? i don't know, havne't seen the 'butchered' version, but as long as they show how tim goes off the edge at it all, personally, i aint fussed. But whats more important here, is that WB please the new president, whoever he is, bucannon maybe ;) And unfortuantely american corporations believe aniamtion is a childish thing, probably because titan ae bombed ( a great injustice). But BB is in a kids tv slot, its pretty stupid econically to make movie for a kids and adulats audience and cuty out your larger demographic doens't it. adios cowboy
Art & Entertainment & Business (to Goatkiller) by Playkins	Nov 30th, 2000 02:19:13 PM
TradSka, I agree with your (somewhat strongly put) opinion. In the grand scheme of things, how important is the fact that WB chose to edit thier own material? I believe it is thier freedom to do so. Now Goatkiller- The fact that you're implying I bend over and whore my talent for "The Business" is disturbing. If you read more carefully, what I said was "the OTHER SIDE of entertainment is business". What I mean by that is this- When you are working in the business, often you have to make personal creative sacrifices you wouldn't ordinarily make, especially when you are dealing with property that is not yours. Paul Dini must take these same risks. Regardless of how faithfully he has adapted Batman over the years, he runs the risk of making creative sacrifices when dealing with WB's characters. It's not fun, but it's a fact. Warner Brothers is in it for the money. If they feel that something might jeopardize thier opportunity to make more money, they will try to fix it. In regards to just doing the work and getting paid, you're right. There are jobs I have to take and do just because I'm getting paid. I have to eat and pay rent, and if I become known as difficult to work with, I won't be getting more jobs. If I want to excersise complete creative control, I need to do it with my own creations. And even that doesn't happen very often. How many times have you heard of a screenwriter selling a script and then complaining about the treatment done on it? It goes back to the studios doing thier best to turn a profit. If they didn't, they wouldn't be around long and we wouldn't even have the chance to enjoy Batman in any film medium. Goatkiller, your post DOES make alot of sense and I agree completely with you about how things ought to be. The sad thing is that it's just not the way it is. The hell it sounds like Mr. Dini has gone through with this project is proof of that. Creatively, I feel for him. This movie did sound good. But Batman is not his, and if WB wants to make changes it is in thier every right to do so. Just like it is Mr. Lucas' every right to do what he wants with star Wars. Thanks for a good debate, I look forward to a reply.
Warner doesn't want your money by wash	Nov 30th, 2000 02:22:27 PM
They would prefer that you find a nice peer-to-peer application to download the divx file and enjoy it for free.
re: People rob liquor stores because they want something (money) by Zarozinia	Nov 30th, 2000 04:27:02 PM
Your analogy doesn't hold water, because the bootleg in question is not available from any legitimate source, while there are plenty of honest ways to earn money. I loathe bootlegging, but if people with the uncut version are willing to sell copies for little or no profit (the little being compensation for their time) then more power to them. If that's the only way the artist's true vision of the film is going to be distributed, well, that's sad, but it ain't staling. It's just fans sharing.
Re: Playkins by Anton_Sirius	Nov 30th, 2000 04:27:06 PM
First- In your GET OVER IT post, you said- "If you don't want it, DON'T BUY IT!" If that were all there was to it, then that's what I'd do. There are plenty of movies out there- most starring Pauly Shore- that I don't want and therefore don't buy. In this case however there IS a film I want to buy- the uncut Return of the Joker. And WB's asinine, downright UNAMERICAN decision-maikng is preventing me from doing so. It is from this that my, and our, anger stems. Now, as for your most recent post... you're correct that Dini & Timm were assuming some risks when working with properties they didn't own. Again, however, in this case it's not that cut and dried. They did EXACTLY what they were hired to do- return a PG-13 equivalent animated Batman Beyond film- and the corporation who hired them to do it then disemboweled their work anyway. Does this happen all the time in Hollywood? Of course. Does that make it right? No. This isn't the case of, say, a screenwriter being hired to do a rewrite, which the executive in charge doesn't like, and then that rewrite gets obliterated by the next one down the line. There, you are still dealing with a product in its formative stages. Here, Timm & Dini did all that they were asked to do and AFTER THEY WERE DONE their creative work was altered. By mongoloids. Had these new working conditions been handed down to them while they were still in the process of creating the film they could have adapted to the restrictions. Instead their film was gutted- and WB is still promoting it having been created by them, even though it is NOT the film they created! (Really, if either one of them was planning on walking out the door anyway, they should have Alan Smithee'd the bastardized version.) That, too, is a source of anger for me- that artists who made a fair amount of money for WB had their work treated like shit by the studio. It should be a source of anger for you too.
Playkins... by The Killer-Goat	Nov 30th, 2000 04:40:49 PM
...you tap the facts involved very directly. Compromise IS a fact of entertainment and there are posts reminding us how lucky to have observed the Dini/Timm guide the animated series this far, given the "pc" obstacles faced and worked around. Recognizing how far they've come, however, it's extraordinary how much this last film was 'altered'. If it were a matter of principle and public obligation to curb the violence on the same level playing field as all other America animation, then the re-treatments in this case have already been too extreme. Although censorship does not directly apply to this situation (per your definition), there are overly-biligerent political/governmental waters the animation industry had to wade through and the fear of inciting censorship against the industry may have been a reason for the extreme re-edits (I DO mean extreme), but harsher things have televised in similar animated mediums, and this fiasco reveals a decidedly inconsistent level of "violence-maintenance" from the WB executives. After so many years of previous Batman Animated stories with controversial content, it boggles the mind to see this gem of a film picked as the scapegoat to serve as example of how WB handles "controversial property" (as noted, they STILL didn't change the 'unrated' definition). Yes, Dini and Timm are professionals that need to earn a living as we all do (no, "whoring" was not intended), but my concern is that after such a long successful interaction with the WB company, why the sudden about-face? Just for business-sake? It's not so much the matter of observing the spread of the ashes, but in investigating the source of the spark. Surely you're also aware of the comments of Disney digitally re-editing old classics to omit suggestions of cigarettes and cigars? Even after these classics have been wholesomely accepted into our culture for so long! As for the flame-post reactions to your initial reality-doses; amidst a website flooded with dedicated [over-obsessed] fans of filmdom, statements of "get over it" and "it's only a cartoon" tend to get more than just a little noticed. I'm sure you've observed that a general consensus was rooting more for the animated portrayals than the inferior live-action versions that WB still intends to pursue production with. The shame is in having to witness what may very likely be a twisted swansong of a great creative team, thanks to the WB [Network] dept. (reposted on newer Batman Beyond talkback)
Mthiel, Kids, and Censorship by Mattman	Nov 30th, 2000 04:58:13 PM
I'm not going to shout at you or call you names, because you have a right to your opinion. But I don't agree with you, and I feel you are in the minority on this issue. Hollywood simply doesn't have the power to make a kid shoot up a school. It's that kid's choice. You underestimate children. They are not as helpless as you believe them to be, but I think that is a scary thought for people like you who'd rather not blame such occurances on the individual responsible, or neglegent parenting skills. And secondly, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is not a kid's movie. It was never intended for children. Just because something's animated doesn't mean it's for children (just look at Japanese anime). It had recieved a PG rating, which means PARENTAL GUIDANCE. If the parent isn't around to watch it with the kid, why did they buy the movie? Ratings are a guideline for parents. Like nutritional information on a food product. If they do not follow it, they're being neglegent. But is it not more dangerous to make a child think that there is no such thing as violence in this world? Talk about desensitizing. What happens when he finds a gun and doesn't realize that it is a weapon that kills? And finally, censorship is a much more dangerous practice, in any form.
BOYCOT!!! by Agent23	Nov 30th, 2000 05:00:47 PM
THAT
Not directed at Mthiel by Mattman	Nov 30th, 2000 05:01:35 PM
Sorry, that's directed at people you are mocking, Mthiel.
glad for the edits listed by Scavok	Nov 30th, 2000 07:51:04 PM
After reading your article, it looks like these edits - not CENSORSHIP, but EDITS were wise... remember, REMEMBER what series we are talking about. This isn't Tim Burton's movie or Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT - this is a film from the BATMAN BEYOND animated show on... listen closely... "KIDS WB". Emphasis on KIDS. KIDS. Those of you sooooo upset that you can't have your gratuitous violence and eat it too, quit crossing your arms and pouting - you aren't the producers of this series (an excellent one at that.) Quit griping and find a real problem. You know what? DON'T BUY IT! You aren't the target audience - the kids who watch... listen closely... "KIDS" WB are the target audience!!! Figure it out!
Bootleg BATMAN BEYOND video by Scavok	Nov 30th, 2000 08:08:46 PM
Anyone who buys or encourages the buying of a bootleg version of the BATMAN BEYOND video is secretly (or not) crying out for head-examination and is looking for trouble....hey... y'know what, no-lifes? It's ILLEGAL!!! Yep! Sure is!!! Against the law... gee... W.W.B.D? (What. Would.Batman.Do?)
Top Secret: Do Not Read This! by monkeylucifer	Nov 30th, 2000 09:54:33 PM
If you have a lot of bandwidth, or your willing to tie up your pc and phone line for a loooooooooong while, then get your ass to CuteMX.com and download their software (It's like Napster and Scour) and do a search for Batman Beyond. You won't be disapointed.
Scavok by Cowblaster	Dec 1st, 2000 01:00:33 AM
The main reason we're upset is because this movie DOESN'T have gratuitous violence. Yes, there is violence in it, but it isn't glorified. There's nothing in this movie that kids shouldn't watch. ROTJ shows us just how tragic violence can be, and the effects it has on those close to us. Also, don't be quick to judge those of us willing to go to such extreme measures as having to violate copyright laws just to see this movie. It's THAT good! It's not a kid's movie, nor is it and adult's movie. . . it's a movie EVERYONE can enjoy, young and old alike. To limit the film's audience solely to young children is nothing short of a travesty to artistic freedom. Afterall, isn't the point of video release to not be bound by television standards?
No big deal by Boss Hog	Dec 1st, 2000 03:32:31 AM
Downloaded the un-edited RETURN OF THE JOKER, paid real close attention to the material that is supposed to be cut, no big deal in my opinion. If this stuff is cut it doesn't make the movie any better or worse, or make the material any more "kid friendly", it's still violent and dark as all hell. Only reason I see to complain about the cuts is that they are completely unnecessary. Kind of like when they added figures to obscure the obscured nudity in EYES WIDE SHUT. Just dumb. Anyway, I thought the movie was pretty cool, I might buy the cut version.
Scavok- by ThereIsNoSpoon	Dec 1st, 2000 12:56:54 PM
What would Batman do? Probably drive his unregistered vehicle at speeds far in excess of posted limits to where he could find the video pirates and beat them hard enough that they all require medical attention and many have permanent injuries. Bad example. Civil Disobedience - the deliberate breaking of laws by an organized body of citizens, fully willing to undergo short term penalties to illustrate how wrong they feel the law is, to bring it to public attention, and to hopefully overturn it. See if this were a Superman talkback, you'd be all fine and good, but these are Batman fans. We like heroes who do what they feel is right despite what the law says.
Reply from Scavok by Scavok	Dec 1st, 2000 05:10:18 PM
Hello, geniuses... some things should be obvious, but perhaps I need to use small words so you'll understand... TO BUY ILLEGAL (meaning not legal) COPIES of ANYTHING is wrong. This isn't just about Batman, I mean music, videos, blah blah blah. Do you think the execs are hurt by this? No - it's the slave labor they hire to draw the stuff! So what message are you sending... I promise this is what they will hear... "DO NOT DO ANYTHING THAT WILL ASSOCIATE YOUR PRODUCT WITH OVER-ZEALOUS TYPES THAT THINK THEY KNOW YOUR BUSINESS BETTER THAN THEY (the ones actually doing the work) DO! IT IS NOT WORTH THEIR 5th GRADE HASSLING!" Sorry - some big words in there.
question on cuts. by jmulcahy1	Dec 1st, 2000 05:34:46 PM
I just finished watching the uncut version with the japanese sub titles, and all of the stuff mentioned above is in there except for one thing, in the flashback sequence, it only shows robin straped down, then goes to the joker getting the tongs and shocking him. Am i missing some of the sequence or is that how it is supposed to be? please email me at mulcahy@mulcahy.org or reply.
Illegal, Scavok? Surely You Jest! by Cowblaster	Dec 1st, 2000 05:44:42 PM
Of COURSE it's illegal! None of us are denying that, nor that we're doing the wrong thing. But, the fact that we feel the need to go to such measures to see the best Batman film ever (just because some corporate goon is afraid of possibly being attacked by parents groups) should show our appreciation for the movie itself, and the entire animated Batman franchise. Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it's very illegal, but it's what we've been forced to do. The cuts in the movie are mostly unjustified, and the big one completley changes the point to the whole story. Kids WOULD have enjoyed this movie unedited, but now they won't get a chance. Sure, they might see it, appreciate the action, but in a year or two, they'll get tired of it, being that it's now pretty much just a big action movie with no real heart to it, that's been redesigned to appeal to mindless youngsters.
more for the pirate prostitutes... by Scavok	Dec 1st, 2000 05:49:48 PM
All I hear is flaccid JUSTIFICATION for buying illegal BATMAN BEYOND videos. Sure, I could justify ANYTHING using your reasoning... "Gee... I think I'll sell illegal dubs of my original BEATLES albums to protest the release of their Greatest Hits compilations since they present the songs out of their original intent and format blah blah blah whine whine whine... So THERE!!! Nah nah nah!" Silly? YES! Now listen to yourself! You're no better than crooked lawyers who KNOW their client is wrong... but... DAMN! I want that video! And if I can't get it legally... duhhhhh... Look, you are hurting EVERYONE - especially YOURSELF and your ilk with your whining and silly email protests! If you've never been involved in animation production (I have) over a product that you have created (again, I have) then you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what kind of deliberation and fighting has ALREADY gone on over plot choices, characters, dialogue, etc. for your little video. I promise you, they heard this debate LONG before you got involved - and here is their decision! THE END. You will keep producers away from material like this with your self-justified robbery. So stop supporting thieves by buying their bootlegs. Yes... T-H-I-E-V-E-S... you see? No? Unbelievable.
Deac Speaks.... My fellow Batman Fans.. Help me.. for the sake o by Deacon	Dec 1st, 2000 05:58:02 PM
hello.. i'm Deacon... i am a batman fan, i have over 700 issues of batman comics, i've seen every B

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A Guide To The Murder of BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER!!!