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Moriarty examines PRINCESS MONONOKE (aka Mononoke Hime)

Nice review by Albert Acisuan	Aug 22nd, 1999 03:34:41 AM
What a great review. You've just laid to rest my biggest fears - that people who go in knowing nothing will understand nothing. But your summary has all the right points, except for things like the truth about Jiko-Bou, which are designed to take many viewings to catch.
Of course it's great, as long as it's not Disney. by stewdog	Aug 22nd, 1999 03:34:43 AM
Why is every animated movie that's not from Disney treated like manna from Heaven? Whoops, better put on my asbestos suit in anticipation of the flames I'm about to get. Just remember who started the idea of animated movies.
Of course it IS great by Albert Acisuan	Aug 22nd, 1999 03:41:46 AM
Hmm.. That's odd, I don't remember anyone falling down and worshiping Quest for Camelot or King and I, do you? ^_^ Nice point though, and I think these movies do get a boost from everyone being sick of Disney these days. Anyone remember when Miyazaki's Totoro came out here in '93? Critics ripped into it, mostly because it wasn't Disney. But that doesn't change the fact that PM and IG (and Totoro, for that matter) are damn good films.
Well as a matter of fact... by Harry Knowles	Aug 22nd, 1999 04:58:47 AM
Fleischer Studios began initial pre-production work on GULLIVER'S TRAVELS before work on SNOW WHITE began. But DISNEY had more money and a larger staff and could finish first (by a lot). Don't let the history books deceive you. Next thing you know you'll believe the Multiplane Camera and Rotoscope and Color and Sound were all invented by Disney. Harry
I Feel Like Peter Falk! by Anton_Sirius	Aug 22nd, 1999 06:49:44 AM
Damn, Harry, you beat me to it! Anyway, you said your scoop was UK-related, and now Moriarty throws in that 'speaking of animation' line... what did you two go and do, get yourselves cameos in Chicken Run?
Coming Monday ; Chicken Run !!!! by Tom Doniphon	Aug 22nd, 1999 08:15:08 AM
Okay call me slow but I think I've worked out thos mysterious scoop. Harry hinted abut a Englishman first try at success in Hollywood, Moriarty adds animation, we're talking Nick Park, we're talking Aardman, we're talking Chicken Run. Send all prizes ASAP
Doh by Tom Doniphon	Aug 22nd, 1999 08:18:29 AM
... missed by that much, so how was chicken run anyway, and rather than a harry/ moriarty cameo I want to see Wallace or Grommit or even cooler the penguin from Wrong Trousers
Question for Harry or Moriarty by Prankster	Aug 22nd, 1999 09:54:40 AM
So, do either of you know how the failure of Iron Giant will affect a) Brad Bird's contract with WB, or b) WB animations' future output? I would hate to see them cancel Osmosis Jones or Ray Gunn or all their other clever ideas, just as they're getting started! As for our reverence for non-Disney animation...well, through a strange coincidence, non-Disney animation has been very good lately. Antz (not as good as A Bug's Life, but still good), POE, Iron Giant. With other facinating projects on the way such as Monkey Bone and Chicken Run and, of course, Princess Mononoke. We tend to root for non-Disney animated films simply because it's unhealthy for one company to be dominating the market. Many of Disney's movies have been entertaining, but ever since Fantasia they have been more and more locked into a certain pattern and formula, and the mentality that animation must be for kids. There's nothing wrong with making animated kid's movies, but the medium must be allowed to grow and stretch. Animation has tons and tons of untapped potential, but a lot of it is restricted by the public's preconceptions that Disney has a trademark on animation. Well, historically speaking, Disney just happened to be the only studio that was able to survive the tumultuous birth of aniamtion. They were good, but there were many other good animation studios as well.
Its boring! by Min	Aug 22nd, 1999 10:35:35 AM
I saw this damn Film last year in Cologne germany, don
Big Sticks by Powerslave	Aug 22nd, 1999 11:54:51 AM
Put the clubs down, folks. The Disney-horse has been dead for some time now. It's getting tired. I can just see it: "Oooh, I'm so cool! I just said Disney sucks!," you say to yourself as you type. You people are sheep: if one person says Disney sucks, you all have to say it. For your information, Disney isn't in this business to please you, as shocking as that might sound. They're in it to make money, pure and simple, just like everybody else (yes, even those 'indies' you're always gushing about). Get over yourselves. So, the "big scoop" hints at animation. Let me guess: Harry and Moriarty think 'The Iron Giant' is a really, really, really, really, really good movie. But it must be, right? It's not Disney.
The Iron Giant by stewdog	Aug 22nd, 1999 12:17:41 PM
IG is a kiddie retread of T2. And comparing it to E.T.? Not even close.
Powerslave by Prankster	Aug 22nd, 1999 12:21:07 PM
So what are you saying? That we shouldn't complain about Disney's output because it's only there to make money? News flash: whatever Disney's motives, it's not going to make money if it doesn't succeed in pleasing people. "Just being in it for the money" is not a good thing. From the perspective of the movie-going public (us) there's no benefit if Disney just keeps churning out crap. Do I even have to say this? Isn't it obvious? **** Now, like I said above, I don't think Disney sucks, but things just aren't as simple as "Disney is the only good animation studio" either. A lot of the animated films released recently by Disney's competitors are very good. Some of them are very bad. But animation fans seem to have a hard time seeing past the company that made the movie. As demonstrated by The Iron Giant and Quest for Camelot, or Pocahontas and Beauty and the Beast, movies of radically varying quality can be released by the same distributor. "Brand loyalty", to either Disney or its competitors, is stupid. You have to examine the films on an individual basis. That said, if a director or animator makes one brilliant movie, it's only logical to be excited about his next one...that's why people are so enthused about Mononoke Hime, Chicken Run, and whatever Brad Bird is going to do next. It also may explain why some people resent Disney--that company tends to submerge their artist's individual styles under a blanket brand name, so it gets hard to get a lock on the quality of their projects, and a certain generic quality begins to creep in.
IG vs ET by Prankster	Aug 22nd, 1999 12:23:10 PM
You're right, stewdog: Iron Giant is light years better than E.T.
Mort, I am so there... by Cassius the Evil	Aug 22nd, 1999 01:12:14 PM
If this movie is half as good as Iron Giant, which I consider one of the best movies of the friggin' decade (Gonna have to do E.T. and it in a single showing before I make a final decision on which is better), then I will be happy for days. Maybe I'll pick up some more of this guy's work... I really liked Akira (Subtitled was better, but the only really bad thing about the dubbed were the cuts and Kaneda's voice; I also have the soundtrack, which has Noh chants... I'm sorry, but Noh chants are awesome) and Project A-ko is, hell, one of those once-a-month shrine-type movies. I have yet to find anything that does more than touch the movie theater scene in that one...
Disney by stewdog	Aug 22nd, 1999 03:07:58 PM
"Whatever Disney's motives, it's not going to make money if it doesn't succeed in pleasing people." Obviously then, Disney movies do succeed in pleasing people, since every one has been hugely profitable since 1989. And being in it for the money is NOT a bad thing! Reminder: Only after The Lion King made something like 5 bazillion dollars did other studios start making animated movies. Why? They were chasing the money, of course! Competition brings out the worst in people and the best in products. As far as the varying quality of Disney movies goes, I think the worst Disney movie can go toe-to-toe with the best of Don Bluth, Brad Bird, the Whatzisname brothers, or whoever else!
stewdog by Prankster	Aug 22nd, 1999 03:42:14 PM
I didn't say being in it for the money is a bad thing, I said JUST being in it for the money is a bad thing. Note the difference. Obviously any studio wants to make money, but without a certain amount of pride and enthusiasm for the movies themselves, you get crap. And while Disney may be fine with churning out crap and making money, it's no good for us. And, in the long run, it's no good for them, either. Disney was like a freight train after Lion King, then they made the horrific "Pocahontas" and their huge grosses dropped to merely respectable. They still maintain a certain level of quality, thereby guaranteeing hits, but if they let it slide any further they'll be in trouble. Already, Tarzan has proven a bit of a disappointment...it's a hit, of course, but they were predicting well over $200 million domestically, and it's fallen short of that. It's probably because the wider audience they seemed to be aiming at was turned off by their inability to get out of the "kiddie rut." As for quality...well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you have the right to criticize people's "knee-jerk" reactions against Disney when you're honestly suggesting that "Pocahontas" or "The Black Cauldron" is anywhere near the caliber of "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm", "Prince of Egypt", "Iron Giant", or any of the many non-Disney classics such as "Yellow Submarine" or "The Brave Little Toaster". Disney is a towering figure in animation, but it's not the ONLY one. Let's not let either the por- or anti-Disney factions stick to their guns so hard that they're blinded to the truth.
This site lied to me. by Dextarin	Aug 22nd, 1999 04:56:24 PM
I will admit that Iron Giant was good. But...I was led to believe that it would be a masterpiece greater than Prince of Egypt. After having seen it, I find it an insult to compare it to POE. POE does not preach to the audience like IG BLATANTLY does. POE doesn't have the vulgar potty humor that IG had (eg. the characters dropping their pants every few minutes to make a joke). Hmmm, that just sounded like what some people said about TPM's fart joke! And people still dared to call IG a masterpiece? I agree that Disney is not the only animation studio, and that the others have had their own versions of crap. But, there were animation studios before Lion King. Remember the Don Bluth films? During the 80's, American Tail and Land Before Time were bigger hits than Black Cauldron or Great Mouse Detective. With only one animated film released yet, I'd say Dreamworks is the only one who hasn't put out crap. We'll see what happens when The Road to El Dorado comes out. Anyway, getting back on topic, since this site gave me false hopes about IG and gave biased views to make the film seem better than it was, I cannot trust this site's opinions regarding this new animated film. I will not see it.
Speaking of animation... by QuiGonFishin	Aug 22nd, 1999 05:39:49 PM
I know this is a little off-topic, but does anyone know when the new "Vampire Hunter D" comes out??? The first was great - not only does it have some really brilliant artwork, but the story is one of the strongest I've seen in animated horror. Just wonderin.... Morpheus X
clarification by stewdog	Aug 22nd, 1999 06:00:41 PM
I think I need to clarify what I meant by the worst of Disney and the best of the rest. Prince of Egypt made just over $100 million in the U. S. and Pocahontas made almost half again as much. So in the aggregate opinion of over 250 million people, Pocahontas was the better movie. That counts a lot more than one or two people who congregate here, IMHO.
Whatever by Anton_Sirius	Aug 22nd, 1999 06:15:28 PM
And I don't think anyone who refers to the 'Whatzisname Brothers' has ANY right to an opinion on animation.
Gimme a break by Prankster	Aug 22nd, 1999 06:24:43 PM
Come on, now. Saying "this movie made jillions of dollars, therefore it's good" is just silly. Do you know anyone who actually liked Pocahontas?!? Sure, people went to see it, but that doesn't mean anyone enjoyed it. The parents took their kids because it had the "Disney" sticker on it. Disney has decades of goodwill behind them, so the parents trusted them. And the kids...well, most of the kids I know thought it was boring. And kids are NOT picky viewers. When dealing with kids' movies, you have to be careful, because the ticket buyers are not the people the tickets are being bought for the sake of. Likewise, its entirely possible that if everyone had gone to see "Iron Giant" they would have loved it, but the ads were unable to get people into the theater. The thing about movies is that whether you loved them or hated them, the movie folks still get your money beforehand. So just because a movie makes more money than another doesn't mean people enjoyed it more.
animated films by m2298	Aug 22nd, 1999 07:11:47 PM
Believe it or not, I think there was more variety (if not always quality) in the '70s and early '80s BEFORE Disney became "successful" again. We had everthing from Bakshi's adult fare and HEAVY METAL to kid fare like RAGGEDY ANN AND ANDY and the PEANUTS films. Not to mention FANTASTIC PLANET, WATERSHIP DOWN, THE MOUSE AND HIS CHILD, THE SECRET OF NIMH, THE LAST UNICORN and other films. When Disney was only releasing one film every four years, no one felt obligated to slavishly imitate them.
New Vampire Hunter D by eirias	Aug 22nd, 1999 11:27:18 PM
The New Vampire Hunter D is not out in Japan, even. It'll be a while yet before we see it over here. eirias, who runs an anime club at bu, and is very excited to simply see one of the best films ever made released here.
I've asked befiore... by Walter Burns	Aug 23rd, 1999 12:12:32 AM
...but does anyone know if this movie has a UK release scheduled? I'ts one of the films I'm most looking forwards to (this, Iron Giant and Chicken Run), but I fear that it might not make it over (Kiki didn't - neither did Totoro).
Pocahontas by stewdog	Aug 23rd, 1999 02:48:33 AM
Do I know anyone who actually liked Pocahontas? Go to imdb.com, and you'll find that the good reviews outnumber the bad 3-to-1! And if people only went to see it "because it had the Disney sticker on it" then what about your earlier quote that "brand loyalty to either Disney or its competitors is stupid"? So everyone in America is stupid? You're the only smart one who can judge a film on its merits? Maybe everyone should have to get your permission before buying a ticket!
grunter by Prankster	Aug 23rd, 1999 09:48:57 AM
Well, I didn't see ET until I was in my teens. I found it instantly forgettable--not bad, I just couldn't remember a thing about it. I saw it again a year or two ago and, except for some nice atmopherics in the early scenes, I found it cloying, manipulative, and without much in the way of a point. It's not allegory, it's not a parable, it's not an exploration of character or of human foibles. It's just a sort of wish fulfillment, of the kind that was much better handled in Close Encounters. And there were so many gratuitous "Star Wars" plugs, it kinda kept yanking me out of the movie. Perhaps I had been spoiled by "Starman", which I feel is a far better (and, obviously, more adult) take on the same subject. But I really don't feel that the kids in ET act anywhere near as believable as Hogarth upon discovering their own visitor from another world. I will give ET credit for capturing a certain "magic"--the Godlike hand of Spielberg--but in this rare case, that's not enough to carry the movie over all its rough patches.
PS by Prankster	Aug 23rd, 1999 10:53:36 AM
And grunter, I am a white male in his early twenties. I don't tear up at that scene at all.
Sad year by PipsOrcle	Aug 23rd, 1999 12:19:11 PM
Can anyone explain to me WTF (Why the Fuck) did Iron Giant make less money than the piece of garbage horse radish son of a whore Inspector Gadget movie? Maybe Iron Giant took place in a time period that may not appeal to the audience of today, but jeez, IG was supposed to get a similar reaction to ET! But those Disney ASSHOLES out-grossed Iron Giant! Geez, Secret of NIMH didn't get all that great of a crowd (besides us animation lovers), so look what's happened to Iron Giant! What's happened with our society!? Can't a general audience take intelligent films over noisy shit?! I mean, I like noisy films once in a while, but shit, no offense to anyone, but intelligent and moving films make the top grossing films of all time. Hmmmm.... Maybe IG didn't get enough word out in the public. Well, at least IG has our respect! :)
A slight stab on this anti-Disney issue! by Walter	Aug 23rd, 1999 01:03:03 PM
Disney does not churn out Crap. I can sense the appetite for a broader, mature-oriented animation and don't blame you folks for that. Walter, myself, personally like animated movies with the themes geared at adults. But then again, kid-friendly films of this genre can be appreciated as well, which we can reason the fact that Aladdin and The Lion King made $200M+ and high praise. How can anyone criticize Disney for staying loyal to the so-called "Formula" and go to the extent to call their product crap. If one rant their forumla being crappy and trying to speak for the world that they are, then why did parents spend over $2.6 billion worth of tickets to see disney animation over the last decade and an additional 55 million copies of TLK video, 44M for Aladdin, and 30 or so million copies for Pocahontas sold? In perspective, other animation attempts from the other studios merely a fraction of that. Trust me, Disney and its numbers in this market doesn't stack up by accident. Parents, the arch influence of this genre, prefer Disney and its formula. No way can anyone suggest that audiences are displeased with Disney, yet. If Tarzan was a dissapointment because it wasn't opted for a higher age group, then take in question why it received one of the highest critical and audience acclaim ever and a worldwide box office gross poised at $400M north? And that is not because those "Audiences" were only families/kids either. From a recent "Fortune," it said that Disney had Tarzan targeted for baby-boomer adults with the Phil Collins influence to try and free themselves from the age-compression issue. Meanwhile, Disney still keeps their rhythm on the family-level type(of which you folks call "The Disney Formula." Again, the baby-boomer appeal, by the way is a very good attempt, does suggest that Disney is willing to take chances with their glut. Which also reminds me.... Animation does not have to appeal strictly to adults neither does it have to fantasize the kids. Recent efforts such PoE and Hunchback, though a tad of Disney's usual mold, are endorsed with some of the most mature themes ever in the history of animation. That's to distinguish the "Adult" category. And then there's the films that appeal to both adults and kids, The Iron Giant and Antz. Especially TIG, as a friend once said "Brings a sense of 50s/60s nostalgia," a unique and more sophisticated path of which I sense Disney is heading for. The formula isn't as consistent as it use to be if an anti-Disney individual here would just spend a little time to closely examine the studio's future movies. Today's animation isn't just about South Park or Prince of Egypt, it's about being entertained and especially on a visual perspective, of which most will admit Disney still outdoes them all. Factor out the money bit, every studio wants 'em. Don't get me wrong for gloating one studio, I do love recent efforts from the other studios. I just feel that there's just enough blind-bashing. For Walt sakes, Disney isn't here Just for the money, they always had entertain and is on a gradual change as you folks wished for. So, drop the rant, ovate the Mouse, and stop judging Disney because they're Disney, but because they put out entertainment. -W-
here we go again! by lilgorgor	Aug 23rd, 1999 01:13:16 PM
every time theres a talkback about mononoke hime, the same things happen. the disney haters dis disney, the disney defenders dis the disney haters, people bring up the poor quality of the japanese animation they saw when they were growing up in the 70s, and then theres more disney arguing. now that iron giant is out, we have the people who didn't like it fighting with the people who did. (on that note, i can't believe anyone thinks that iron giant truly deserves to be less of a success than that inspector gadget piece of trash) at any rate, i'd like to mention that i hope they don't release it under the title "princess mononoke" as movies with "princess" in the title are bound to fail. the classic example being the princess bride. great movie, everyone loves it, but it bombed at the box office. i suggest they just stick to "mononoke hime".
IG vs. ET by Anton_Sirius	Aug 23rd, 1999 03:23:30 PM
Uh, hello, my name is Anton, and I'm a white male in his late twenties who grew up in the suburbs (Hi Anton!)... and I saw ET in theaters- five times... and I've seen IG three times now... and IG is better. Sorry. And as for there being no scene in IG as powerful, I've got one word for ya pal: Superman.
Miyazaki's work and the acceptance of Anime. by fuzzyhobbit	Aug 23rd, 1999 11:05:23 PM
I am hoping that Mononoke begins the acceptance of Anime in American theaters and more adult animation in general. There are many great Anime works that should be more widely seen and have attention. I recently saw Perfect Blue, another Anime film that has just begun a limited run. Although the dubbing was only decent, the film itself was quite interesting and artistic and DEFINITELY NOT for children. Anyone who can see it should go see it--www.manga.com for details. The tragic thing is that there are so many past films that are so incredible that we'll never see on the screen. Anyone who can pick up such films on DVD should--Ghost in the Shell, Beautiful Dreamer and Grave of the Fireflies to name a few. Grave of the Fireflies is from Studio Ghibli, like Mononoke, but from their other director--not Miyazaki. I have been avoiding Mononoke so I can see it on the big screen, but so far my favorite Miyazaki work is Whispers of the Heart. I hope that Disney is reading this and they bring it over here--on video(DVD) at least. It is a story about creativity and artistic pursuits and growing up. Everyone should hunt down an import copy and see this film. I love it! Well, I guess that's it. I hope everyone sees Mononoke and also track down Whispers of the Heart. This is the fuzzy hobbit signing off and returning to his hole.
Ash vs. Mononoke Hime - Who will win? by cartoonrick	Aug 25th, 1999 12:54:56 AM
Who will be the ultimate winner when it comes to trying to bring these types of animated features to the U.S. ??? I would have to say POKEMON will do better... I love both actually... I am huge fan of KIKI and I really loved TOTORO (So does my little two year old) and I want to see CASTLE IN THE SKY. (Does anyone know when this one will come out?) But I am also torn by my love for POKEMON! I love that "electric rat." In the end I know that POKEMON will do better... But for all of us who truly have a love for the art, we will take PM over PM any day... Now, You have to figure that one out...
pocahontas by baff	Sep 3rd, 1999 08:51:41 PM
i liked pocahontas. i dont understand why it has gotten so much of a bad wrap. it is quite a reach from 'the formula'. i, for one, dont care and am not going to pretend to care if they did change the story around. it was only based on history. so they made her older! so they made a love affair between them! so what?! who cares? no wait, native americans...i do not understand how these changes insult them as a people. they were shown as good civilized people when in fact, they kidnapped john smith and took him on a canoe around to the other indian tribes to show him off as a freak show. the europeans also did things just as horrible but their are two sides of the story and i am impressed that disney did not just make indians good, white man bad because that would also be a mistake in the truth. baff
So does she have cervical cancer? by Wolfpack	Aug 29th, 2006 08:26:31 AM

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Moriarty examines PRINCESS MONONOKE (aka Mononoke Hime)

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