In season 1 it states that Cylons were machines created by humans and then they rebelled against their human masters about 40 years before the events of BSG (sort of a typical evil robot thing to do really).

Then, during the armistice the Cylons evolved to become almost identical to humans and are now more really androids instead of robots.

Eventually it is revealed with all this final 5 Cylon stuff... it turns out that the Cylons were around at least 2000 years ago and lived on what appears to be a nuked Earth (although I noticed that we never saw familiar continents on the irradiated "Earth" the Colonials and Cylons visited).

So has it ever been established when the Colonials invented the Cylons? I assumed it was perhaps a hundred years or so before the 1st Cylon War. But, now it seems that the Colonials created the Cylons more than 2000 years before the events of BSG? It also seems that humanoid Cylons existed well before anyone thought if Colonel Tigh has served with Admiral Adama for decades?

Do I have that straight?

Also, what about Kobol? 2000 years ago the 12 colonies left Kobol, which just happened to be the same time that 'Earth' (the 13th colony) went kablooie. Are we going to find out what happened there? I'm concerned we won't.

They also need to get Baltar back to being his old pre-trial self. Enough of this prophet/rabblerouser shtick. The man is brilliant, let him be brilliant!

With a story so fractured and characters filled with lunatic motivations that change from minute to minute, it's like a mad scramble here at the end to see how much damage they can inflict on the great things the show has done previously.

It's like a train wreck I can't not watch. But, the watching is painful, let me tell you. What a depressing load of overwrought nonsense that last episode was. Using my DVR, I almost hit the comemrcial skip button durning the show and watched the commercials for a breath of fresh air.

and what if what the crew discovered wasn't Earth, but the charred remains of Kobol? and Earth is another three years away in the same direction they were going? wouldn't the 2000 years thing make more sence?

I think it's OK to move away from this line of thinking.

BTW - thanks for not stepping into spoiler territory. We are all jealous of your advanced-insider knowledge!

That said, non-resurrecting cylons that can interbreed with humans and have allied interests with humans are, for all intents and purposes human. The difference which makes no difference is no difference.

This final run is repeating early BSG. Tonights ep looks like the revolt on the prison ship that was led by Zarek. That ep was, what: two eps after the original nuked planet ep?

Any case, I am glad Gaeta is laying off the singing and soulful eyes montages.

Head Six = Angel Moroni

Colonials = Nephites

Cylons = Lamanites

Six and Tigh's child = Elohim

Hera = Elohim's Wife

Colonials and Cylons will all be resurrected to a higher plain of existence on our Earth as they are tried in life an move toward godhood themselves.

And all the resurrected will receive a KFC Frak Pack personally from the resurrected Colonel Sanders.

I seriously don't know what Moore is setting up with this in fleet fighting and the mysterious absence of The Cavil Co., but I think we can judge, based on the show's entire run that it will end fantastically, but probably not happily. It's like the last season of DS9,only without an episode of the Colonials playing baseball against the Cylons.

I have all of the BSG DVDs but have yet to open them and watch the entire series from start to finish. Right now I'm doing that with The Wire... BSG will be next.

Am I the only who feels this way? Feels "I hate these people and am happy to see them die off. Good riddance!"

The characters are admirable though even if we don't like them. That's the strength of the characters in the show.

WHO LET GAETA HAVE THE PHONE??? Seriously, you can imagine how Uhura could have fucked up everyone on Enterprise.

Damn 7 day wait!

Next week Narcho Hotdog dogfight.

Lost is in danger of loosing its crown as best show on TV.

Remember the election Roslin tried to steal? Baltar won because the peoplw wanted to settle down on New Caprica. Roslin and Adama knew it was a mistake from the beginning.

They couldn't stay by Earth - Cavil and his boys are still hunting them down. To stay still would be suicide.

She has the wing tattoo, and the Hybrid mentioned "on the wings of an angel"

Could she be an Archangel Michael type?

"I could do this all day." and "Follow me.... PLEASE!" were the best lines of this episode.

1)Jackson Public & Doc Hammer "The Venture Brothers"

2)Ron Moore and Company "Battlestar Galactica"

3)Damon Lindelof "Lost"

BSG could move to the number one spot if they tie up what ever happened to Bulldog.

PS Ron Moore's podcast is up.

PPS Speedbumped if you want to know what Baltar whispered in Gaeta's ear you need to watch face of the enemy part 9.

His wide eye reaction to Roslin coming out for coffee was Fantastic!

Fucking Helo, that motherfucker couldn't buy break with all the money in the fleet.

Would that be when she obviously lied about not knowing what the picture of a resurrection ship was or deliberately not identifying Cavil to the others on Caprica. That plus being a traitor to her own people often as a general rule would tend to make people wary of her, you'd think. After all if someone can turn once, what stops them from doing it again?

I guess I don't remember the Cylons tracking the Tyllium refinery, but that wouldn't make any sense to me given that the radiation shouldn't be able to be tracked since it doesn't exceed the speed of light. That was the reason it took them so long to find them at New Caprica, because the nuclear blast took a year or so to be noticed and it was only by luck that the Cylons had a ship close enough by to catch it in time. And if this were the case, then they should be focusing on shielding the Tyllium ship better.

As for the hidden models now being well known, that's why I think that now is finally the time to make a run for it. Just keep jumping in one direction and you'd lose them forever.

And there is no level of numerical superiority that should make it possible to just stumble across the Colonials. I believe they even made that point in 33. The universe is just too vast, especially when you're talking about FTL drives. Why didn't the Cylons use their numbers to find Earth, if that had been the case?

Did Gaeta really cop to being a nancy boy in the webisodes? Shit like that is why I hate webisodes. Put it in the show.

What Anders does have is the ability to turn back Cylon raiders - or ability to get them to stand down simply because of who he is, depending on your POV.

Tracking the tyllium ship or not, Cavil still has to contend with the true nature of the Final Five. If Anders or one of the other FF intervenes again (e.g. Anders and the raiders) when Cavil attacks, the question of loyalty will be answered.

1. Even lobotomized, Cylon raiders still retain some form of AI to engage in space dogfights with Vipers. So is it possible for the post lobotomized technology to be influenced by a FF member?

2. Are we sure about what Anders and the rest of the FF CAN or CANNOT do?

I noted that particular scene with Athena because it underscores one MAJOR thing - the ultimate and true nature of the Final Five is yet to be revealed.

Just a couple thoughts.

can they sustain it?

I surely hope so - and SO SAY WE ALL!

Adama, Roslin, et al, are in complicity with a vengeance obsessed enemy.

You'll see. ;-)

-that and all his other shit aside, tho, Adama's got a BETTER point!

he's wearing a Fleet uniform - he's military - and the ONE thing the military DRILL into you from DAY ONE is you DO NOT second-guess your superiors! you do not PRESUME that you possess the facts and the judgement and the AUTHORITY to disobey or even question command!

that whole "you ALONE get to make that determination?" bit - that's fuckin bullshit that Adama should have not let stand with just a pithy "you have a problem with that?"

Zarek, sure, I buy his end of this no problems but the one thing I found a little (just a little) hard to swallow was all the MARINES - especially the ex-PEGASUS Marines who followed Admiral Cain's command WITHOUT question - jumping on board this whole insurrection band-wagon.

ok I get they kinda ran out of "real" soldiers at some point and had to draft people or whatever - but did they skip BASIC TRAINING?

the rebels have been so free and easy with the murder of PEOPLE for their apparently anti-Cylon cause - again, I buy Zarek being ok with this - with so far NO Cylon casualties, while the humans-still-living tally slowly diminishes...

that's just a little bit beyond hypocrisy

His motivation is seeped in bitterness compounded with a point to prove. It's a classic downfall scenario.

Points out the election theft - resulting administration does very badly and thousands are killed.

Tries to work with administration - see above for fallout. Tries to give information to rebels to make up for it - nearly gets airlocked for his trouble (though why he didn't tell everyone straight away ... I'll leave that up to the screenwriter.

Later discovers that attempts to get people saved is actually getting them killed.

Goes to obey an order and loses his leg. That would really suck

I could see how after all of that, you might just flip out a bit. Also, with Helo and Athena repeatedly being given a pass (and promotions) for every wrong thing they do - well you might just feel just a bit bitter especially when you have the exact opposite happening from trying to follow orders. Eventually you might think that "well if I break the rules too"...

If the show is true to form, I wouldn't be completely surprised if Gaeta is the new Admiral by the end of the show.

And maybe one of the things special about the Five is that they DO somehow know about resurrection. Ellen & Tigh seemed pretty confident in that flashback....

That's the one of the key points of this episode IMHO. You have to be honorable, ethical, and wise enough to choose the right side and position.

Now we see why the fifth is so important, I guess. Her return should have a huge impact on everyone's understanding of Cylon know how.

...pretty big difference between me and a Nazi. You can say that the Germans were just ordinary people who found themselves in a fucked up situation, but if you joined the Nazi party itself, then you've lost your soul IMO.

But of course, even though I started the analogy, it was a loose one and we're talking apples and oranges here. I think that most humans warrant a chance for redemption, but we are talking about killer robots here. That's what they do. That's all they do. You can't stop them. No level of redemption and sentimentality stopped boomer from trying to shoot Adama that one time. Or any of the others times an 8 has betrayed the fleet. In the end, the Sharons always do their job, remember? The Cylons are simply untrustworthy by design. And there's no getting around that. Gay-ass feelings shouldn't enter into the equation.

Adama would buy the Brooklyn Bridge if they offered it to him. Come to think of it, he once did, since that was suppose to be the blown out Brooklyn Bridge on Earth (I think RDM once said that). He's forcing the entire human race to take a huge gamble, for very little profit, and they clearly don't want it. And they have the legal right to reject it. Faster drives is not a military decision (33 and settling on New Caprica proved that). He's turned into Admiral Cain, but with far worse judgement.

I think Adama and the Quorum were too soft. They tried the diplomatic route before, but look where that lead humanity: 50 billion dead at the hands of the Cylons.

I like Gaeta. I like Adama too, but humanity needs to break out a fresh can of whoopass on those mass-murdering toasters. Integration be damned. Kill them all. Go Gaeta.

Predictive text is not artificial intelligence. Nor is knee replacement. Nor biochemistry. AI is a replicant which seems human but has been programmed to serve its corporate masters, someone more human than human, a machine program built to assess threats that decides humanity is the greatest threat. DOUCHE. Goddamn watching this guy flail about trying to be intelligent is just sad.

Gaeta will probably be killed off soon. But I hope he's not killed by Hoshi -- that would play into a "gay lovers' spat" stereotype.

I'm in the same boat as you--I haven't finished DS9 yet. The whole Star Trek craze happened when I was too young to really understand it; I was around 10 or so during the TNG/DS9 era. . .and I loved the few episodes I saw, though I didn't understand most of it.

I'm in the middle of season 6 now, and I'm really impressed with how everything's turning out. I honestly wish that there were more episodes focusing on Cisco's role as the emissary; it seems so important and they spend only a handful of episodes referencing that. Otherwise, DS9 is pretty damn amazing.

And in regards to BSG, the last episode was so incredible that it made the mediocrity of the past 1.5 seasons worth it. . .so long as they can keep up this momentum. Like people said, it was like the glory days of season 1 and 2 came back in full force. Great stuff.

Tigh may very well be "dead". I think he may have jumped on that grenade to save Adama.

I don't think Adama will execute the traitors. He will probably banish them giving them a ship or two and leaving them to fend for themselves. One of the upcoming episodes is called something like "Marooned on an Island of Stars"

I agree there've been moments of sweet consideration for the Cylons. Moments humans have turned brutal and scary. Humans aren't really "good guys," in my opinion, but they ARE of my species. And I side with my species any day of the week.

Plus, never forget 50 billion dead. That's 50 billion. That's 8300 World War II Holocausts.

Purely on a species versus species level, the Cylons cannot EVER be trusted, ever. If the human race wants to survive, theoretically not a single Cylon can be left alive. That's a cruel, harsh statement, I know. It makes people cringe.

But until we know more about Cylons -- REALLY know about them -- I say humans should do whatever is necessary to win the war. Bide our time for long intervals, sure. Pretend to care about establishing peace and integration. Pretend to care about working with the Cylons toward a "common good."

And then, when the Cylons are on the verge of pulling their imminent genocidal double-cross, a tactic I'm convinced is near, humans nuke their fucking asses before the toasters can pull their triggers.

As awful and heavy handed as that sounds, for me that's justice. I want as many humans as possible to survive.

I just disagree. Did you watch the webisodes with Gaeta and the Sharon who "helped" him save hundreds of humans in the Second Occupation? Those scenes will tell you a lot about why any Cylon, until humans REALLY understand them, is not to be trusted on any level. I think Helo is a dupe for trusting Athena. I think she's manipulating him so she can have her human-Cylon baby. But at any point, she'll revert to being a sociopath, kill Helo, and take her baby back to some Base Ship. We trusted Sharon in the first season too, right? And then, out of nowhere, she shot Adama.

Maybe Athena will surprise me. It's true I don't KNOW what's going to happen, so your point is valid. But I have suspicions.

Really? I think you're the first person on this thread to take an argument there, which says more about you than it does about facts of the show.

No one I know, on this thread or in my life, has ever compared Cylons to humans, ethnically speaking. I've heard Cylons compared to Nazis, sociopaths, fascists, and other hateful sorts of humans, but never blacks, Chinese, Italians, or other ethnic groups. I think you're reaching with that analogy.

Humans can definitely be accused of messing with nature, much like Cylons on the show mess with humans. I think that's valid. Humans wipe out species of frogs or insects, for example, after we do long-term experiments on them. This seems a more apt analogy for Cylons.

Except that doesn't work either, since flies didn't create humans before watching us exterminate them.

So I think it's simply a human versus not-human conflict. I don't think your analogy works.

no question.

remember there was a German resistance who were opposed to the Nazi regime, often called the Nazi "fifth column" - resulting in millions of Germans in prison camps or simply executed, like those who attempted to assassinate the Fuehrer.

the flip side of this was Vichy France, where French collaborators worked with the Germans, essentially becoming Nazis themselves - both these themes have been explored in BSG, most notably in the New Caprica episodes...

the term originates with the Spanish Civil War, where a "fifth column" of supporters worked with the attacking four columns of insurgents to undermine the Republican government from within (sound familiar?)

point is, if I can borrow a line here, "the world don't move to the beat of just one drum" and you gotta take the good with the bad...

If you're ok with that, then fine.

Are you so willing to overlook the mega-Holocaust, Pompulous, as something that'll only happen once? That it's something which is forgivable since the Cylons are a little bit like us?

I must say: welcome to your own extinction.

I think you're being a little too touchy feely, happy go lucky with a survival-is-on-the-line situation.

I still say that humans, if possible, should wipe out the Cylons. It's Darwin's survival of the fittest at work, and I think Gaeta has the right idea.

I don't think you can compare the brainwashing of man to the programming of a computer. Humans can't ever be forced to do anything to the extent that a computer can. Even the worst humans justify what they do in terms of right and wrong. And as such, they can learn and evolve. There was no right or wrong, from Boomer's perspective, in shooting Adama. Once the command was set, she no longer had the will to control her actions or sympathize with her victims.

As for your notion, Pompoulus that it may have to do with how long we've watched the show, I don't think that's a factor. I am, by trade, a software engineer. I can never look at a computer as anything more than a set of instructions. There's no good or bad in them, there is only good or bad in what they do.

Now one could argue that, in the grand sense, we have no more free will then they do, but the show has provided example after example of the human capacity to forgive and the Cylon's capacity to betray. If Adama want to forgive them and view them as equals, that's fine to do in his personal life. But given the stakes, and the history, it's just plain reckless to trust that they won't be betrayed again this time. You at least have to admit, that it's a gamble to integrate Cylon technology with their ships. There's no guarantee that it won't backfire. And at this point, can the human race afford to be gambling what little they have left, for nothing more than some lofty notion of equality? Especially when none of the colonies want to take that risk (New Caprica likely included in that once you dismiss Lee's obvious bias towards his father)?

You have a broken man (Adama) who flat out admitted that he couldn't kill his friend, even if it meant the survival of the fleet (Lee had to take over for him). You have a crazy, drugged up schoolteacher President, talking about vision and hallucinations that no longer have any relevance. And mind you, that she even sold her soul and rigged elections over these lies. You have Starbuck, who may or may not be Cylon, but likely owes her existence to them. And then you have the rest of the entire human race saying, "You know what, perhaps 50 billion of us dead was enough. We'll take a pass on trusting our mortal enemy this time. It just ain't worth the marginal benefit it might provide." Suicidal Adama is violating the will and legal authority of the people and condemning them to another roll of the dice. After all, what difference does it make to a man who just recently wanted to die? And who is he anyway if his commanders saw fit to put him in charge of a museum piece, instead of a state of the art ship? He's probably had a history of bad judgement to be given such a shameful commision, and now, because he was in the right time at the right place, he's dictator for life?? They all owe their lives to the fact that they didn't have networked technology in their ships and now they're spitting in the face of fate.

But where has cooperation really gotten them? It's bought them time, it's true. I can see the point you're making. But the only times they've made real strides toward freedom is when they took the fight to the Cylons. When they destroyed the Resurrection Ships. When they atmo-jumped into New Caprica, took out several Base Stars, and freed the humans there. When they provoked the Cylons into a their own civil war. These are the actions that have produced results.

Yes, civil war caused factions of the Cylons to seek treaty with the humans.

But I say now's the time for humans to act. Again. In a bigger, more coordinated way. Which is what Gaeta is trying to do before it's too late.

Just my opinion.

...are all the major characters on the same side? Gaeta was always a minor character and Zarek was always portrayed as a bad guy. The people are portrayed as an unenlightened mob. It sure seems like we're suppose to side with the Cylons here and most of the posters on this board (except for maybe three of us) have proven the writers bias. If it had been Zarek and Gaeta pushing for the install of these jump drives and our "heroes" were against it, what side do you think most of the talkbackers here would take? The viewers aren't really given much room to judge, unless they are willing to take the effort to see for themselves. And most people are just along for the ride. Much like our current political environment, I'd say.

And I'm obviously not saying that I have any special trust for humans, since it's the humans, presently in charge, that are making all the wrong decisions. I'm complaining more about them then the Cylons, in fact. I'm just saying that there's no point in unity with an enemy that has the capability and the will to annihilate all human life. And that the people have a right to determine new leadership, if their current leaders are threatening their very existence and defying the public will with complete arrogance.

"The Plan" is still in effect and approaching culmination.

If that were the case, then, Maltheus, which one is good and which is evil? Are we to think the humans are good simply because we believe them most like us? What if we find out they're all Cylons too, from long ago... would that automatically make them evil too? Are the current Cylons the most evil because they committed the most recent attacks? Are the Final Five evil simply because they're Cylons, even though they didn't participate in the attacks?

Heck, even if they are human... when those masses of people who are so consumed by hatred and the desire for vengeance eventually go back out into space and start a new war with the Cylons, perhaps nuking their planets and attempting genocide on them, who is the good guy and bad guy then?

The cool thing about this show is that it brings up these types of questions. Most of the colonials have not been able to move past the attacks and look at their current world as black and white when the reality is there is no black and white, its all shades of gray. We've seen a few humans begin to understand that. Interestingly enough, it seems that the rebel Cylons have come to understand that before the humans.

Granted, as far as we know their bodies are manufactured in some way but they appear to be mostly organic which likely means the bodies have to be grown to a certain extent. It can be said that human bodies are very machine-like. Our bodies convert raw resources into energy used for various tasks and our brains are some of the most sophisticated computers that we know of. Not in the electronic sense, of course, but biological.

Cut in some Jack Bauer talking on the phone to Baltar, Starbuck and the Galactica CIC.

I would do it myself but I am don't have the time nor am I that talented.

gone

and not looking back either...

you know this insurrection is the perfect justification for their attempt at annihilating mankind - at every turn Man has proven hostile and willing to destroy them without hesitation

remember the virus?

remember Apollo's threat to remove the four remaining "Final Five" from play?

remember the Pegasus 6?

put it this way, suppose the Cylons originally chose a "live and let live" policy instead of war - how long do you suppose it would have taken Humanity to reach the point that it has with the rebel Cylons?

shit - how long have they even been with the fleet? couple of weeks? months?

I think Cavil made the right choice and walked away...

In this era of Iraq war veterans coming home in similar shape or worse, that's kinda shitty, and If I were a TV writer, I'd think twice about putting that out there for a bunch of phony-tough geeksters to giggle over.

So bullshit...Kara Thrace

No one in the audience was giggling. That was an intense and horrible dramatic scene.

Maybe Ron Moore should have come up with goofy sci-fi insults ("golu-frat", "kriyptl") so patronizing people like you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch.

It doesn't look like those "Razors" are ever going to give up now that Gaeta has unleashed them.

Name me another show that divided the fan base so much. Deep Space Nine flirted with making Gul Dukat a good guy, and then abandoned the plotline. Lost has shifting alliances within the show, but the viewers just don't know which side to pick because we're so in the dark.

Battlestar has given us a fantastic cast of characters, and now has set them against each other. And Moore—as he states in the last podcast—has given the 'bad guys' (the mutineers) a legitimate beef. He's even not letting one side rack up the death count, or do something really unforgivable, so as to make us force sides.

For the record, I'm siding with Adama. Felix DID swear an oath, and after he voiced his concerns to the Admiral, and they were ignored, that should have been the end of it. But he, and Zarek, have too much of a power complex to let this slide. If humanity weren't down to its last 50,000, I'd be all in favor of letting the mutineers leave the fleet (although they want to take over it, not leave), but we don't have that luxury. If humanity's going to survive--and remember, the 'evil' Cylons could show up at any moment--they need to stick together. And Adama has shown he has the stones to step up when need be. Felix hasn't shown anything except jealousy.

The uprising plot point also brought in the same level of tension that we had in season 1 by reintroducing the enemy or friend dynamics amongst the cast, in addition to the moral dilemmas of the Pegasus arc.

Last but not least, Adama and Tigh come out looking like the most dangerous fuckers in the fleet.

Watching the next ep will feel more like a treat than an obligation, unlike most of the last batch of episodes.

I think the purpose of the line wasn't as much to prove the evil of the mutineers, was to: A. show the evil of people in general, B. show what danger Felix was getting to by siding with all the anti-Adama factions.

But I'll agree that I wish it hadn't been put in there. But I feel like most shows would have given that line to Felix or Zarek.

And looks like Roslin is going to go PMT on their asses next week! This show just rules and rocks!

And as for the debate, I decided a long time ago I am the Admirals man, so whichever side Adama is on is the side I am on :)

Zarek needs airlocking along with Gaeta. Which is a shame because I really like Gaeta.

In conclussion, I have no bloody idea how this is all going to play out, but I am sure excited for the ride! Thanks BSG. Consistantly the best thing on TV :)

Ms. Martini, why would you assume that Athena is loyal to the fleet? She's not only genetically identical to the other 8s, but she has their memories too (most of them anyway). That model has betrayed the fleet time and time again. Even Athena herself jeopardized the fleet by shooting that 6 who was in custody. She's the least trustworthy Cylon of all (followed perhaps by D'Anna). As for Tigh, even he was worried that he could not be trusted. As for Lee, I trust his independent streak far more than I would trust anyone consumed by blind loyalty. He mostly thinks for himself, it's the others who are impressionable and are influenced more by feelings rather than logic.

GregoryHarbin, what about Adama's oath? Is this a military dictatorship? In America, our soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders. Protecting the constitution is the main part of their oath. The colonies voted against his stupid idea. He decided to reclassify it as a military decision, which it isn't. I may not particularly like Gaeta, but in doing what he's doing, he is defending the right of the 11 colonies to exercise their vote. This is about far more than just Zarek. I thought we decided at Nuremberg that 'just following orders' is not an excuse for doing the wrong thing.

Adama himself has ignored them before like when Admiral Cain gave a death sentence to Tyrol and Helo for killing Lt. Thorne (he WAS repulsive).

This is a very dark and GRAY day for BSG.

And I'm a SG1 big fan lol

But its understandable. Your teen mind can only grasp the basics of sci-fi. When you've grown up and moved out, then perhaps a tv show with adult themes may be within your grasp.

PS. My Mum says thanks :)

Col. Tigh hated Cylons more than just about anyone in the whole frackin colonial fleet. Especially when he had to kill his beloved Ellen over them and their actions. ALLLL the way up until season 3's climax...then suddenly he learns he is a Cylon. On one hand he could have been selfish and be like...oh I'M a Cylon? Well, Cylons are a-ok!

But the writing was better than that....he reacted as we imagined with shock, confusion and a little bit of self-loathing. He outed himself and all his fellow cylons and practically commanded Lee to blow him out the airlock. "Well, what are you waiting for Apollo? Do it." Great line delivery.

So that was how season 4.0 ended with him still confused about what to think of himself and ready to die for the sake of the crew...determined to die as a human rather than live a Cylon.

THEN, ep 1 of season 4.5 and suddenly he seems a lot more at peace with being a Cylon (was that b/c the humans made an alliance and so being a Cylon suddenly was ok?). Then, he learns that Ellen is the fifth Cylon...and ever since then in Disquiet... and The Oath he has been not only at peace with being a Cylon but one of the major proponents of defending the alliance with them. SO, my question to all you BSG lovers out there like me is how did Tigh change so fast?? Is it learning Ellen was a Cylon? Is it just loyalty to whatever the "old man" does no matter what? I dont get it. Love the show more than ever...but not getting this.

we call them "instincts" and we figured out the programming right down to the most Basic instincts - you may have heard of them - at the most fundamental level, we are programmed from birth (before, really) to Fight, Flee, Feed, or Fuck...

combined with higher functions, mostly controlled chemically and hormonally, these four basic programs determine maybe 99% of our behaviour on a day-to-day basis

we will never be free from our programming

even the comments on this very board are informed by one of these "four F's" (can you guess which one?) at the most basic level

like I said, we share the same programming, present in the same pieces of code (DNA) we share with every other creature in the world and if Ron Moore's Cylons are as "humanoid" as it's been suggested then we share the same programming with them too - although they've only been around for 50-odd years and we're obviously much more sophisticated in how we interact with our programming - the Cylons tend to have a more simplistic view of events and the universe around them...

the Final Five are the exception - Ellen Tigh, for example, was a master manipulator - having been around longer... I quite like the theory posted above, about the toasters basing their other seven models of skinjob on these Five - but not quite getting it right in the design (hence the Love instinct, not so well developed)

anyway, point is these are ORGANIC beings and when we talk about their "programming" it's a mistake to think of that as your typical machine code that makes your computer or mobile phone (or toaster?) work - even "operating system" isn't quite the right metaphor...

I can't argue too much with the points you're making, they sure seem trustworthy. Hell, I'm even sympathetic, especially to Tigh. But at the end of the day, all it takes it one hidden program (NOT comparable to instincts, that's ridiculous, we're talking about directed programming, possibly controlled by a Cavil) and then that all changes. The Sharon's were meant to be trustworthy, up until the point where the switch is flipped. I certainly don't believe Tigh is knowingly being deceptive, but if "All Along the Watchtower" was able to compel him to action, then what happens when he hears "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" or "Don't Think Twice, It's All Right"? For all we know, Bob Dylan is out to get us all.

Aside from arguing my point, I now have a question. Why were the final five boxed? You could say it's because they aren't loyal to the Cylon hierarchy, but Tory is certainly a cold-hearted Cylon type. I suppose it could be because they aren't susceptible to hidden programs and therefor cannot be reliably controlled. I would imagine that we'll eventually find out, but it isn't a question I've heard tossed around lately.

What happens after this uprising is put down and he completes his mission is then up to the Cylons.

there was no magic switch that flipped inside Sharon and told her "you kill now!" - she was struggling with the idea that she was in fact a Cylon and that everything she thought she knew consciously about herself was at odds with what she knew subconsciously was nothing more than a fantasy, which could have been induced hypnotically, or perhaps by some Cylon equivalent...

remember we find out a little more about this particular character later - specifically the mercenary "cut and run" qualities that surface and the lack of loyalty, even to the rest of the 8's which I think is unique just to that particular 8

so first she thinks about suicide and Baltar urges her to "embrace that which opens up for (her)" and "listen to (her) heart" - which results in her taking a gun to her own head - self sacrifice is arguably (it's a controversial idea) an instinct that kicks in when relevant at an evolutionary level (for the "greater good" instead of your own survival) - again, something we've seen in other creatures too...

then she sees all those 8's and there can no longer be any doubt what she is - this time she points the gun at the man in charge of the fleet, as any "good soldier" might do, loyalties having shifted and the opportunity having presented itself-

btw in this same episode Apollo points a gun at Tigh's head, declaring he's "following his instincts" - yes he uses that word specifically - as the captain flexes some muscle over the fledgling govt - but I digress...

watch it again and refresh your memory - it is NOT presented as some Machiavellian Cylon somewhere using some trigger that "activates" Sharon like, say, in the Manchurian Candidate...

she is just going through some major shit and makes not one but two "rash" decisions with a loaded gun - if I'm wrong, by all means point out to me where I missed this "switch" and I'll take another look, otherwise I'm not gonna take the idea too literally

Tight episode, exciting and fun, reminded me of the good ol' days.

It's also nice to see Starbuck just acting like a jerk again. They almost completely ruined the most compelling character on the show, esp. last season, so it's a relief.

for all the missteps this show has taken, I feel like there's a decent chance it'll end well. And I gotta give credit to a show that introduces true argument amongst its fans as to which characters are in the wrong or the right (though it's pretty obvious the writers are on Adama's side, not Gaeta's in this case)

I can't figure out why Tigh calls Adama the old man. when he looks at least as old himself.

The betrayal he suffered at the hands of Sharon on New Caprica is the event that's driven him over the edge. That and his leg. And the Occupation. And the Holocaust. And 50 billion humans dead.

Gods damn the Cylons to extinction. I want to see Gaeta make it happen.

I hope to see GAY-ta get airlocked. Not all at once...crack open a small hole and let him get sucked out into space organ-by-organ.

What we do see is an angry Roslin. The reckoning is going to be off the charts!

However, when Baltar's survival instincts lead him to hightail it off of Galactica and onto the Cylon rebel basestar, I think we can figure out which side will get the biggest hurting.

I could tell you damn near everything that happened in all five seasons of The Wire.

Clay Davis for Sec. of Treasury!