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Che and Castro were not good men
by catlettuce4
Jan 12th, 2009
12:15:35 PM
They killed, they tortured. It really bothers me that Hollywood tries to make these guys into heroes. In reality they were basically the Hitler and Goebbels of Central America.
CHE
by laraz
Jan 12th, 2009
12:27:02 PM
Che and Castro at 1st were really great friends! After Castro decided he would turn CUBA in to a dictator-ship, CHE left and went on his way to bolivia! In which Castro did not help him one bit! That is the truth, and this actor seems like he was prepped at the communist camp for castro!
dude's great on weeds
by livahd
Jan 12th, 2009
12:32:15 PM
'anything you need, you call us'. the guy is OG
Hitler & Goebbels
by mulberry
Jan 12th, 2009
01:16:21 PM
More like Stalin & Lenin. Genocide not one of their main aims, just violent revolution and overthrow of the incumbent regimes. Luckily there is a pretty long line of Central/South American leaders vying for the alternate titles of H&G. Not sure how the number of casualities and the extent of human suffering stack up against their European/Russian exemplars, but still good effort on their part. Then again, most military leaders have a lot more blood on their hands than their supporters admit and some of them have had pretty fantastic films. Almost as if Hollywood consistently lies to us about the merits of real (and fictional) killers. Come to think of it, not many Hollywood heroes aren't killers.
CHE
by hauptman
Jan 12th, 2009
01:32:15 PM
Taken as two separate titles, The Argentine and The Guerilla are pretty solid movies. However, taken as a whole, I cannot help but think that Che is somewhat of a failure. For a four and a half hour movie about a hugely controversial figure, it is resoundingly incomplete. Che was pretty much Benicio del Toro as Jesus Christ. How do you produce four and a half hours of Benicio and barely touch any aspect of him that makes him reviled by so many people around the world?
oops
by hauptman
Jan 12th, 2009
01:33:19 PM
that last "Benicio" should be "Che"
Che Guevara was a murderer..
by James Westfall
Jan 12th, 2009
01:50:39 PM
... and your t-shirt isn't cool.
Why People Love Che & Castro
by Continentalop
Jan 12th, 2009
02:19:54 PM
While Lenin and Stalin might a better comparison than Hitler & Goebbels, I don’t think either one is really that applicable. I think they best comparison to them is the Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis of their time. And I say that because while they may have admirable traits, and they might have been individually brave and held firm convictions in what they were doing, they were fighting for an evil and immoral system.

And that also explains why people still love Castro and Che; it is the same reason people still love the Confederate generals and make excuses for their actions. Why? It isn’t so much that many Southerners are so racist that they can’t recognize how evil the Confederacy was (although some are), it is just the simple fact that the Confederates were fighting for their side versus a different group. It is Tribalism 101: cheer for those like you, and hope that they change or maintain the status quo so your group can move up or stay at the top of the pecking order - simple as that. And that is the same with Castro and Che for so many people in Latin America. They see Castro and Che as the champions of the indigenous people of Latin America and as defenders against Yankee hegemony, never mind the fact they created a government just as oppressive or as repressive as created by European colonialist or even Batista. All that mattered was the illusion that somehow our side is in charge.

And Westfall is right, Che T-shirts aren't cool...
by Continentalop
Jan 12th, 2009
02:23:05 PM
...As someone who is center-left in his political views, I could never see why liberals would like Che. Any opponent of freedom of speech, due process, civil liberties and who believed that homosexuals should be killed is no hero of liberalism.
Since this movie is about communists
by luis1210
Jan 12th, 2009
03:19:27 PM
I'm going to download it or buy it ilegally so that they don't receive a dime from me for it. I hate those hollywood types with their pretensions and ideals of socialism and communism while they're obsessed with having money and living large, it's very easy to be a socialist from that position. So fuck them, don't let them make money since they don't like it.
murders' only cool
by noiretblanc
Jan 12th, 2009
04:01:13 PM
when the good guys do it
Controversy does not make Che any less dull.
by grungies
Jan 12th, 2009
04:40:03 PM
If I wanted hours of dialogue about battle plans, I'd read about military history. When I go to see a film, I expect, you know, a film.
This Talkback
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 12th, 2009
05:10:33 PM
Has turned into the political version of the kids' table. In other words, a douchebag drop pile of morons who are condemning a film they haven't seen. Soderbergh's film is not a love letter, it wouldn't be Soderbergh film if it was. And yes, the executions carried out by the revolutionary courts are directly addressed in Part One on the floor of the UN. And, morons, the film was not financed by a Hollywood studio, hence, your tired "evil Hollywood leftists" rants are particularly stupid. And, I have to know, do you guys honestly think life was that great under Batista? Castro may be a swine, but Batista was destined to be overthrown.
he ground MLP's pussy into dust!
by ironic_name
Jan 12th, 2009
06:02:28 PM
that must have been nice.
oooohhhhh, "Che"
by The Reluctant Austinite
Jan 12th, 2009
06:41:12 PM
Must. Resist. Busting. Harry's. Balls. Over. "Che". Must. Respect. HeadGeek. Must---ah, fuck it. I think the fact that NOBODY from BNAT posted a review of "Che" speaks for itself. Nobody was awake for the whole thing. Father Geek, however, did include it in his Top Ten of 2008 list. I can't offer an opinion because I didn't last for the entire film, but I did see the entire first 2 1/2 hours. I'll just not recommend trying to watch this after already watching 24 hours of film previously. From the silent 5 minute opening showing us every location we're about to see on a map like a Power Point Presentation to the endless marching through the jungle, I never learned anything about Che internally. What makes him tick? I don't know. It felt like a History Channel miniseries more than a movie. It did, however, feel very much like a documentary. It feels like you're watching real life instead of written scenes, and many critics will applaud it for that. I just wish, like most of the AICN staff, I could have just said "I have the screener at home on dvd. I'll watch it in the comfort of my house when I'm better rested." Because now, to me, "Che" will always be a painful memory of trying to stay awake.
The fact Batista was also an evil douchebag
by catlettuce4
Jan 12th, 2009
08:44:27 PM
...does not excuse Che and Castro's wanton cruelty and wholesale violations of human rights.
All villians here...and that's the problem.
by Sithtastic
Jan 12th, 2009
09:01:07 PM
Please consider the following post to be pre-emptive: There seems to be some confusion and that someone had to clarify that as a center-leftist, they did not think of either Che nor Castro as heroes, exemplifies the debate. These people were little more than gangsters and thugs replacing another set of...gangsters and thugs (surprising I know). What disgusts me though is how long this repugnant folk hero myth has endured around a man responsible for forcibly executing political prisoners in death camps and dying for all intents and purposes in a petty rivalry between him and his partner/leader in crime, Fidel Castro. Much like House of Saddam or the dreadful God's Favorite (about Manuel Noriega) some of the most wretched human beings are portrayed as machiavellian, but nonetheless semi-sympathetic characters, who essentially all some type of re-cast Corleones in far less superior Godfather ripoffs. The supposed intrigue, the betrayal and of course the obligatory American bash...what's not to like, right? Understanding that these people are anti-democratic leftists is not propaganda or spin. Understanding these people are anti-democratic leftists is MINIMALLY OBSERVANT. So for godsakes, burn those tee shirts, shave, get a job and maybe when you're out here in the big bad real world, off mommy and daddy's dole, no longer at the university of your choice, I'll be happy to pay attention to any rants some of you had in the waiting (No offense to anyone above.)
Sithtastic
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 12th, 2009
10:06:50 PM
Somehow I get the feeling you wouldn't get so fired up about Cheney and Bush condoning the torturing of people. Again, your opinion is invalidated by the fact you clearly have not seen the film. Also, your demonizing of Noriega is odd, considering that we once had him on the CIA payroll. After all, we promote democracy. And Saddam was awful in butchering Kurds with chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq War. Did Reagan cease aid immediately after? Nope. But yet it's all "evil leftists". Nothing more hypocritical than criticizing ranters with a rant. And by the way, the US backed Batista. Did this endear the Cubans to us? Just like with the backing of the Shah in Iran. But it seems you have you head in the sand in Billo land.
just say no
by frank cotton
Jan 12th, 2009
10:14:42 PM
to communism.
hey, let's all celebrate the 4th of july
by noiretblanc
Jan 12th, 2009
11:35:23 PM
and thanksgiving in the name of all the murdered "native americans"
...
by MadC
Jan 12th, 2009
11:51:54 PM
you just dont understand.. how Che represents a ray of hope in the lifes of millions of faithless minimum wage workers. in the beginning it was just all about regaining control of their own destinys... what happened later was just nasty U turn. Che fought for freedom; communism was just the name someone labelled it after.
Laraz
by laraz
Jan 12th, 2009
11:53:00 PM
Che? Good?
by laraz
Jan 13th, 2009
12:00:00 AM
I know everything there is to know about Che ok! The man might of been a ray of hope to some in latin americe, those who were communist! Or the poor wage workers! Yet the thing people dont realize is that the workers who would fight because they were poor, were still poor after the reveloution! Every communist uses the same excuse, but in the end, it is the same end! The country does not better its self, history has proven this right! & anyone who thinks CHE is a saint needs to be strung up and hanged from a TREE! I knew cubans who were in camps because of CHE, and fled to america because of him as well! America is the most free country in the world, yet you have the most stupid citizens in world! Who support communist, socialism..etc... When you have never ever been in a situation, of that sort! Hollywood trys to glorify CHE! Makes me sick, and it makes me sick that people knock america! What because of the Native Americans, at least america is able to admit that it committed those crimes! Cuba still denies the the millions it had killed! People just understand when you speak, and read a FUCKING book!
...
by MadC
Jan 13th, 2009
12:35:24 AM
they were still poor after the revolution, but alteast the money their work poduces doesnt go to someone whose main interest is taking it out the coutry as soon as they can. Batista was no different than Maximilian of Absburg, or even the whole spanish colonialism, bleeding the indigenous people out of their hopes of a future. atleast after revolution they won the right to work for their own country, rather than someone else's interest.. the word communism is way too demonized, what you people associate with communism is nothin more than a higher level of economic dictatorship that has nothing to do with marx's ideal.
laraz
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 13th, 2009
03:46:02 AM
"anyone who thinks CHE is a saint needs to be strung up and hanged from a TREE!" Che defended the use of executions, and, apparently, so do you. Sheesh. I bet you have a framed picture of Pinochet at home.
MADC & Sgt.Steiner!
by laraz
Jan 13th, 2009
05:01:04 AM
MadC! They were poor and the only people who become rich under communism in Cuba was Fidel! He doesnt care about the Cuban people, all the wealth goes to him. As far as Marx's his ideals are good on paper! Yet no one in the history or actual communism leadership or goverment has ever put the true meaning to use! MadC for you to think of Che, as a person of value, means you un-educated! Go live in Cuba for a year, come back and then tell me what you think of communism. You spoiled american twat, or whatever republic your from! As far as SGT.ISUCKACOCKSTEINER, yeah Che defended execution...with out trial. Even though I think you are a CockSucker I would still allow you to be tried by your peers, fuckface!
Well, I found one reason to wear a Che T-shirt...
by BurnHollywood
Jan 13th, 2009
05:52:13 AM
Anything that makes a barky little tool like laraz angrily burst a crucial artery can't be all bad.

Comparisons between Cuba and the US are pointless...comparisons of Cuba and Haiti or Guatemala are what leaves Batista's apologists spluttering.

BurnHollywood is A FAG!
by laraz
Jan 13th, 2009
11:16:39 AM
I just want people to read a fucking book and realize what they are talking about! BurnHollywood, you seem like a fag! Anyone who would sport a t-shirt or ideology of someone, without knowing what they were or are about is what is the word you would use TOOL! Yeah america has done some bad things, but none as bad as cube or most of the world for that matter! So shut the fuck up, go suck a cock like you do! & tell your lover to fuck you in the ass! As far as anyone else who wants to say anything else, ducks a dick and two balls! Peace, im out!
Capone!
by laraz
Jan 13th, 2009
12:05:04 PM
Oh yeah Capone, you need to interview better actors! Not communist loving bastards! Yet you probably are one! If not, you talk and act like one! If your not one you sure are a pussy and cant interview worth a shit! Before you even say anything if anything at all, eat shit and die! You dick sucking communist!
laraz
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 13th, 2009
12:53:37 PM
He is upset because his mother is fucking a communist.
laraz
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 13th, 2009
01:00:50 PM
All kidding aside, you have a disturbing obsession with oral copulation.
Sgt.Steiner!
by laraz
Jan 13th, 2009
03:49:19 PM
Hey anal spit! Are you a real Sgt or do you just bullshit! Because you sound like you belong Fuck-off magazine! What are you and Capone butt-buddies! Or do you guys just really like that communist blood pumping through each others asses! I havent figured it out yet! Let me know soon please! Otherwise Suck a dick and two balls! Go listen to your dam Culture Club albums! & no I dont have anything against gay people! I just have something against in-the clost homosexual communist like yourselfs! I always get the last word bitch! Remember that! Till next argument, shut the fuck up! Sit the hell down! & dont get back up! Cause I come punching like ALI! You communist whore rag!
Relax Everyone
by Continentalop
Jan 13th, 2009
05:40:48 PM
The vile and venom spat at each other here is down right laughable. Neither side is going to win or convert each other if your entire argument is summed up by "suck my cock" or "you're a fag!"

Having said that, I will state that I have never criticized the movie per say, just pointed out how I view Che & Castro and how I think those who are fans of him are misguided. Has the United States down bad things? Yes. Was Batista a bad leader? Yes. But just because we say yes to these questions doesn’t mean we can’t raise any more questions or criticize.

The US has long interfered with other countries and nations, trying to shape the world in what would be our best interest. But you what? Every country does it or tries to do it, just very few countries have as much power or influence as us that they can do it so effectively. I am not trying to make excuses for the U.S., just stating a fact. I mean Cuba supported Marxist and Communist forces throughout Latin America, as well as sending Cuban troops to Angola and Ethiopia. He denounced the Czech rebellion to gain support from the Soviet Union, and to have them help bail out the Cuban economy. He did that to help his countries interest and spread his influence at the expense of letting another country determine their own destiny, just like how we here in the US sometimes ally with a dictator or support a rebel side for our own self-interest. I might disagree with whom my country supports, but at least we can criticize our government’s involvement. You can’t in Cuba. Secondly, while Batista was an asshole and a dick, it still doesn’t make Fidel and Che any better. The Polish people suffered under Nazi rule, doesn’t mean they liked the Soviet’s rule that much better. Same with the Communist after Batista: sure the islands profits and resources were no longer going to fatten the pockets of foreigners and colonialist, now they were going to enlarge the bank accounts of a small group of party loyalist. Fidel wasn’t liberating the Cuba people; he was just exchanging one dictator for another. Only this time this one would present himself as a man of the people and a defender of the little guy. But if Fidel were really interested in creating a free society, he would have stepped down from office years ago, like George Washington and Nelson Mandela did after they served their terms as leaders. No, Fidel was always out not to help his fellow Cubans but to put him at the top of the totem pole.

Same with Che, whose entire goal was just to start revolution after revolution, for the sake of revolution, often ending with failure. In fact, Che-inspired revolutions often have the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism. I look at Che as the Latin American version of General George Custer: once a symbol of bravery and looked upon as the epitome of what an American (or Latin American for Che) should be, but now that the years have put some distance between us and the birth of his legend we can see the incompetent, narcissistic jerk he really was.

laraz
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 13th, 2009
08:32:30 PM
is a classic self-loather. He is also fun to get a rise out of.
Continentaloop
by Sgt.Steiner
Jan 13th, 2009
10:41:00 PM
All bizarre verbal jousting matches on this TB aside, I found this interesting quote from "Che" scribe Peter Buchman, which more or less sums up why the film is interesting and why it should have been made: "The fact that he put his own ass on the line in Cuba, he put his own ass on the line in Bolivia-where do we see that? There's a lot of what Che believes I don't agree with, I'm not a communist, but there is a commitment there I respect. I think it's fascinating when you see one individual affect history." I see to recall T.E. Lawrence shouting, "Take No Prisoners!" I seem to recall Patton having a disturbing love of war. Now, while I think Che has little in common with Hitler(with Robespierre you might have a case), my dislike of the Nazi leader to not hamper my enjoyment of "Downfall" by any stretch of the imagination. History is fascinating, whether its Che Guevara triumphing over a repressive dictator and overlooking the repressive nature of the government set up thereafter, or GIs wasting civilians at My Lai. You may not approve of the actions involved, to deny that they are of interest would be an absurd claim to make.
Um, laraz?
by BurnHollywood
Jan 14th, 2009
05:23:22 AM
I hope you don't suck either of your two dad's cocks with that mouth.
But!
by laraz
Jan 14th, 2009
10:11:32 AM
Of course I do!~
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