I'm sorry these infotainment shows make me nauseous.

Hollywood retards.

So chill - wait for the movie - and quit whining.

Really, why did Terminator movies turn into action flicks? The first one, like Alien, was a HORROR MOVIE, not an action flick.

Oh, wait. Same problem with both franchises: Cameron got his hands on them, and turned them from "unstoppable monster stalks and kills people one by one" movies into "balls to the wall explosions everywhere monster fight" movies.

Aliens and Terminator were both perfect horror movies. James Cameron came along and crapped on the original premise, turning them into action franchises. While his stuff was good, it was also a perversion of the original concepts.

So now we only get Slam-Bang action in these movie franchises. That's why they haven't made a decent AvP film, and that's why this movie has McG directing it instead of someone who knows how to do SUBTLETY.

Nope, we're getting the "Wild, Wild West" version of Terminator here, folks. After this one, you'll all be saying, "You know, T3 was actually pretty decent. At least it didn't have giant CG transformers and skin-suit John Connor Terminators"

I DON'T KNOW!!!!

But as you read on this thread, a majority of science fiction and/or action movie fans think pretty highly of T2. Granted the longer "directors cut" featuring more of the Connor/Terminator bonding, and the humanizing of the Terminator, does show that in this case less is more, and Cameron does need a strong editor. But RockLobster did a good job of listing the pros..Danny, what are your cons?

If not, it looks like a fun enough time at the movies anyway.

Don't worry that it is useless and not relevant to this TB--that has never stopped you before!

Looks good.

My only complaint, and it's a gigantic one, is the fact McG's studio is neutering the franchise by making it PG-13. This sucks, in my opinion. I want Terminator films consistent with the harsh language, unpredictably intense drama, and explosive gore that defined the franchise. PG-13 sucks. "Screw you" replaces "Fuck you, asshole." See what I mean? That's how it'll be. It insults and bitchslaps everything that's come before.

If they ramp up "Salvation"s rating to an "R," I'll stop complaining and embrace it.

Skynet is about to lose. It uses the time displacement equipment to send the T-800 after Sarah Connor and only Kyle Reese also gets through. That's it. Ultimately, Kyle goes on to become John's father. John knows this - as far as we know, he's the only one who knows this in the future and possibly Sarah if she's still alive then. In the future, they let/make it happen because they know how it's going to turn out. No variation. It's a closed circle loop. The obvious irony, in trying to save itself, Skynet destroys itself.

If you throw T2 in the mix, then things start to get very messy. Things in the T1 loop get bent out of shape and even broken. Ie, what happened to Miles Dyson and all his research that supposedly became Skynet. How another two terminators get sent to a time 10 years later seems to be a mystery given how time critical Kyle Reese said his journey was before the whole place blew up.

Supposedly now though is the paradox as to how Terminator parts are used to create Skynet in the first place, seemingly showing that Skynet itself came into being out of a closed loop and no-one created it in effect. Corollary - God hates us and made it all happen.

That coupled with the fact that you like T3 means you're an absolute dickhead.

This is why the only DVD I own is "The Terminator." All other stories I consider fan fiction. High-production, mostly entertaining fan fiction, but still fiction. The real story ended with pregnant Sarah sitting on her motorcyle staring down the dark desert highway as the "duh duh duh du-dum" theme pulses in.

Oh, and Laserpants, you're definitely in the tiny minority that hates "T2." I'm a "T1" guy all the way, but "T2," as fan fiction, kicks some serious ass. I liked it a lot.

Some guys never learn...

T2 = classic. There's nothing to argue about. Only retarded dipshits like that Speed Racer-lovin' talkbacker called LaserPants would try that.

And the best future war battle sequence is in the first five minutes of T2. Pretty brilliant pre-title sequence, imho.

T2 repeatedly states there is no fate but what we make for ourselves.

It was as far from inevitable as you can get.

2) Mind-boggling action. T2 is first and foremost a sci-fi action thriller and from that standpoint alone it's one of the most thrilling ever made.

3) Jaw-dropping AND groundbreaking special effects work. Still looking great, even for todays standarts. Also, Kudos to the stunt team and second unit crew.

4) Storytelling. It's not about what T2 is telling, but how the story is presented and how it unfolds. James Cameron is a master in storytelling and T2 is one of the many examples for that.

5) Score. Brilliant. Not only the title tune but especially the scores throughout the movie. A class of its own.

6) Camera work. What Adam Greenberg did here is simply stunning be it the lighting, the angles or the images themselves.

I could go on forver but I'm getting tired of defending such an obvious masterpiece like T2 against obvious blockheads like LaserPants.

I hope you're still with that "girlfiend" of yours, because there's nothing I like more than two mongoloids finding each other in this crazy mixed up world of ours.

AVATAR - Penetrating your looking organs in 2009!!!

Don't mistake expressing an opinion for expressing an opinion well.

Laserpants expressed his opinion, and he's entitled to it, but he has not provided anything but whiny nonsense about emo-father relationships and guns n roses.

I'd really like to hear the opinion of someone who dislikes T2 if they can back it up with reasoning. Not because I want to prove them wrong, but because I'd enjoy debating films with people.

If so, you've succeeded.

And if Motoko Kusanagi is to be believed and you like the Speed Racer flick, then you are a bigger moron than I thought.

Action scenes- that motorbike chase is fucking magnificent.

Score, Motoko is right

Special Effects

Arnold.

Bad THings: Robodaddy sucks.

End Sucks

Rewriting T1 canon sucks.

Overall I give it a "quite good". If it wasn't so jaw dropping it would be shite.

Well, "Russell's Teapot" is an argument in favour of taking the sensible default position in the absence of evidence to the contrary. You are thinking that the sensible default in The Terminator is to think that we're seeing an altered version of history that just happens to bend back round to the same end state as before despite taking some exciting deviations. I would suggest that this is not at ALL sensible as an interpretation.

If you are position changes in the "new" timeline, what are they? What's different this time around? And give me a brief precis of how Sarah ended up with that photo being taken of her in the "first timeline", and also why she was "in hiding before the war".

Sorry, typo. Meant to say "if you are POSITING changes".

Go on, then. (Gestures expansively.)

Might have been reissued then, but it was first published in 1985. I bought my copy in '88 or '89. Sorry!

Yeah, I've often wondered what a Terminator sequel would have been like had The Abyss done well at the box office. T2 feels like the most hyper-commercial, popcorn, conservative blockbuster he could possibly have done. A teen action movie rehash with lots of visual effects, basically.

I agree that it's healthy to laugh at yourself.

I agree with LaserPants about T3, btw: it sets out to be a dumb, fun action movie, and it achieves those aims. It has a bold, brave ending, doesn't drag on, and has lots of fun scenes. It's dumb, yes, but the franchise has already been dumbified by T2, so that doesn't bother me unduly. Once you've spray-painted the Mona Lisa pink, who's gonna complain about adding extra polka dots?

Not least because in the second half of the movie, I don't even know what's at stake anymore. If this is a movie about "no fate but what we make for ourselves" and divergent histories, is it even important that John survives? His After the destruction of Cyberdyne, shouldn't the T-1000's mission change? Forget John Connor, it should immediately become a research scientist, or buy up Cyberdyne's corporate identity then produce its own range of neural processors. Connor is now an irrelevance. Plus the scenes with the police: how should I react emotionally to a large friendly robot fighting against an innocent but misguided police force but not trying to kill them? Should I just be excited by explosions? (Shrugs.) I just don't care about anything that's happening.