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AICN COMICS REVIEWS BATMAN R.I.P.! HULK! GANTZ MANGA! NORTHLANDERS! + MUCH MORE!

Morrison should do Invisibles pt. 2 by rev_skarekroe	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:55:03 AM
That way he can be as daft and nonsensical as he wants to be and nobody can complain because daft nonsense is the entire point.
HARRY!!! by yodalovesyou	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:59:01 AM
Where are the DVD picks for 1st week of December?? I love reading your comments.
Batman RIP by alfiemoon	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:04:05 AM
I was interested by this comment in the review: "It’s almost like it was a different writer from ALL STAR SUPES or FINAL CRISIS". That's intentional, I think. Morrison has talked about the subjects of his series colouring the way he approaches the writing of them: so, whereas Superman is the classic Apollonian superhero (and his series is written in a suitably tight and straightforward manner), Batman necessitates a very different approach. There's more on this at this CBR interview: http://tinyurl.com/3k57uv By the way, I love the @$$holes logo this week! Great stuff.
Death of Batman is Everything That is Wrong With Comics by A-COD	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:14:29 AM
Conjure up a "death" to get attention and maybe some non regular comic readers, if they do pick up your book they get a stupid story about Bruce's father coming back as a villain? Most casual readers will throw it out and not pick up another comic for 5 years. Didn't they do something similar with Jason Todd a few years back? Stupid.
Classic is a little too much by Diagnostic	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:18:03 AM
Typical Whedon. Yea. Better.
Regarding the ending of "RIP"... by alfiemoon	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:22:00 AM
...I'm not sure that Ambush Bug really understood it. Bruce doesn't die. Thomas Wayne isn't really the Black Glove. The issue makes this pretty clear.
And finally... by alfiemoon	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:22:17 AM
...Judd Winick isn't writing "Battle For the Cowl" - penciller Tony Daniel is, apparently.
I read that too, Alfie Moon... by stones_throw	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:25:39 AM
And in fact talked about it in the review, here: "I read that Morrison changes his writing style depending on what he’s writing, and so BATMAN is written quickly and on the spur of the moment, while ALL STAR SUPERMAN is more measured, and I think it shows. Despite some cool ideas, this was pretty all over the place." I mean, I'm all for something that reads fast or violent, but when it's as slapdash as RIP turned out to be, I think the more considered approach pays off. Morrison needs to remember that his writings aren't just performance art, but some people would like to read and make sense of them too. And Rev's right, crazy-mode Morrison's a lot easier to tolerate on something like THE INVISIBLES than BATMAN monthly.
I AM one of the poor shmucks who read the mainstream articles... by The Nihilist	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:26:16 AM
...and decided to pick up Batman #681. And I gotta say, it left me with a big pile of "meh" and reminded me of why I don't normally read Batman and why I think Emperor Grant Morrison is actually wearing no clothes. I don't think I've ever read a single panel from the man without saying "WTF did I just read?" EXPLAIN YOURSELF, MAN! DROP THE "I'M TOO COOL TO BE COHERENT" ATTITUDE AND TELL US WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON!! As for the Wonder Woman story, I DO read that book regularly and I have to ask--was Genocide a female character? Swear to God, I honestly couldn't tell.
Everything sucks right now. by gooseud	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:38:36 AM
MAn, my pull list gets shorter and shorter every month. She Hulk continues its slow death march (and is getting cancelled, right?). X Factor continues to be a pale shadow of the coolness it once was (regardless of what last week's positive review said). Ex Machina continues its glacially slow-paced movement towards.....something....maybe a cover that DOESNT look exactly the same as every other Ex Machina cover? The Twelve continues to put out issues about once every 6 months, joining the New Universal "Oh yeah, I remember that book, thats still around?" club. One character is carrying the load right now for Marvel, and that character is.....Thor. If you arent reading pretty much anything Thor, your missing out, because they are absolutely killing it right now. Secret Invasion mini, with one of the baddest-ass comclusions I've sen in years? Check. Regular series, with JMS doing inspired work? Check. One shots, showing Conan-style Thor from back in the day? Check. Old Man Logan, with Thor standing off screen, all alone against the hordes, killing like 500 villians before finally going down? Check.
Batman's not dead, Hurt isn't the devil by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:40:03 AM
and, quite literally, NO questions were answered. Obviously Batman's still alive, because he lived to write that entry into the black notebook, and his 'final fate' doesn't occur till Final Crisis #6-- perhaps that's when we'll find out what Hurt meant when he said the next time Bruce put on the cowl would be his last, and that he'd come to hate the cowl. I dunno... I just don't know. Between this and the new G'n'R album, I am one letdown motherfucker. Does it strike anyone else as pathetic, the way CBR keeps insisting that Hurt was the devil and that they predicted it all along?
Oh, and the most recent issue of Thor...... by gooseud	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:40:41 AM
with the conversation with a character I wont divulge (and the last one you would expect), perfectly handled, and honestly kinda touching (and thats rare to say that and really mean it in a comic).
alfiemoon by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:41:42 AM
It doesn't make it clear that Hurt isn't Thomas Wayne. It doesn't make that clear at all. Bruce says he's Mangrove Pierce, and Hurt says he killed Mangrove Pierce, and keeps claiming to be Thomas Wayne right up till the end. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't... but the point is that a reader really has no fucking idea who Dr. Hurt is.
Grant Morrison: The thing about genius by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:52:33 AM
The thing about genius is the fine line between it and insanity. When Morrison is on track it's genius, when he's not it's incoherent insanity. I say form your own opinions about RIP, whatever they may be. (Personally I found it to have quite clearly stepped over the line into the not so good kind of insanity).
Hurt cant be the devil, because the devil... by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:53:27 AM
...has blue eyes and blue jeans. As revealed by Terri Gibbs back in the 80's. No one-hit-wonder fans out there?
Holy Crap I'm getting confused with this Black Glove shit!! by RighteousBrother	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:53:40 AM
I thought the Black Glove, was the name of the team of villains - you know five members, like five fingers?(alright well four fingers and a thumb) Aren't we supposed to be trying to guess the true identity of Dr Hurt? If not, then who the hell is this Black Glove chap? (for my money Dr Hurt is the devil - or something to do with Darkseid) Aside from that, pretty much agreed with your review. And not that anyone's asking but, my favorite Morrisson issue was #666
Mangrove Pierce by steverodgers	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:55:04 AM
I don't think I'm mature enough to read a comic book with a character named Mangrove. Manhedge maybe, or Manlawn... but Mangrove - can't do it.
Mangrove...yeah, I couldn't go with it either. by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 08:58:45 AM
Does he do man-pruning? Maybe man-scaping? I swear, you kids and your body issues...though if his name were reversed, I think "Pierce Mangrove" would be a great name for a male porn star. Like "Buck Naked."
More Mangrove by steverodgers	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:15:07 AM
You would think someone at DC would have been like, "Mangrove... wait.. hehehe - call Grant, we can't have a guy named Mangrove running around, this is a Batman comic not Cherry Poptart." - but sadly no - they just green lighted it, and now it's all Mangrove all the time back in Gotham.
RIP vs the prologue Hush part of the story. by palewook	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:26:50 AM
The Detective Comics #846-850 Hush part of the story is the most entertaining part of RIP. RIP as a whole story is iffy at best.
Final Crisis by brassai2003	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:37:16 AM
If this ties into Final Crisis, why not have Thomas Wayne? Jason Todds back right? And the Joker alluded to HIS death when explaining the red and black thing. Remember a few things: Didio said that Bruce wasn't going to "die" This is an on-going story regardless of who's writing it, so no, it's not the "final" issue. And, I think that that helicopter scene is a big fuck you to Didio from Morrison. It's no secret that they were having probs about this run. So Morrison came up with a very cliche'd ending. Warner suits came down on Didio when he announced RIP over the summer. He said in a Newsarama interview that "a few things were changed" I bet there was a different ending that Morrison came up with (at least the "death scene" not necessarily the dialog)and he was told to change it. Make it more ambiguous Working in the journo/writing field, eds (like Didio) end up having the final say and are most of time wrong. This may not be all on Morrison's shoulders.
@ steverodgers by brassai2003	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:38:42 AM
Cherry Poptart= ;)
Apparently, the Final Crisis ending is changed as well by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:42:40 AM
I'll say it again: bring on Dan Slott's Batman.
Also, more Cherry Poptart by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:42:54 AM

RIP and FC rewrites... by DuncanDisorderly	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:14:40 AM

RIP and FC rewrites... by DuncanDisorderly	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:20:20 AM
There have been rumours that Didio made Grant Morrison rewrite the endings for both RIP and FC. These haven't been confirmed as true but neither DC or Morrison have debunked them either. Didio, in a recent interview on the DC boards, has also been rather vague about whether Morrison will be returning to Batman or not after Battle For The Cowl. There's definitely some behind-the-scenes fighting going on in my opinion...
Laserhead... by alfiemoon	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:21:27 AM
Batman seems pretty convinced that Hurt isn't his father, and I think he'd know. Also, Hurt does acknowledge the fact that he's not Thomas Wayne, when he asks Bruce to consider the only possible alternative...
RighteousBrother... by alfiemoon	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:22:43 AM
Yes, you're right: the Black Glove is the organisation, Dr. Hurt is the man. They've been treated as interchangeable labels at times, but I think that this issue makes it clear that the Black Glove isn't a single individual, but a group comprised of five different people.
Ah - that's what I thought! by RighteousBrother	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:25:38 AM
Thanks for clearing it up. You @ssholes, need to sort it out. So, anyone thing it IS the devil?
Why do you thnk Batman would know? by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:26:11 AM
He hasn't seen his father in 30 years. He wouldn't know if the guy had plastic surgery or anything else. If his dad is still alive, Batman obviously DOESN'T know him at all. Hurt does NOT acknowledge the fact that he's not Thomas Wayne; he says, And if I'm not dad, have you considered the other alternative? This is NOT an admission, but further fucking with both Bruce and the reader. WHAT other alternatives is he referring to? Alternatives like the fact that he could be ANYBODY? Hurt never says he's anybody but Thomas Wayne. Period. And we have no idea if that's right or not.
Just what does Didio have to do to get fired? by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:27:48 AM
And for what it's worth guys, that was the best and most measured review of R.I.P. that I've seen anywhere. That's why I don't mind the week-after reviews, and why I keep coming back here.
I mean 'think' it is the devil? by RighteousBrother	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:29:22 AM
Or anything to do with Darkseid? Oh, and whilst we're talking about it, what exactly was the big reveal? Supposedly the most important change in Batman's 70 year history? Which, when you think about all the characters and things that have been introduced, not to mention Year One or The Dark Knight Returns - is a pretty stupid claim to make.
Has anybody read this week's Batman? by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:30:43 AM
It's called "The Butler Did It", and it looks like it doesn't make any goddamn sense either.
RighteousBrother by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:32:10 AM
The 'big reveal' was that Dr. Hurt might or might not be Thomas Wayne. He could also be Mangrove Pierce, Joe Chill, some nameless douche, or, according to some people, the Devil. Which is to say, there's no big reveal: at all.
Was there any ass-play? by The Eskimo	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:36:47 AM

Dr Hurt is aunt May... by loodabagel	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:40:23 AM
Not the original though, the clone. REgardless of the story's quality, I thought RIP was actually rather coherent.
How I knew Jezebel was a villain... by loodabagel	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:46:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =LZycGIo9apI
Doctor Hurt is NOT Thomas Wayne by Doctor Manhattan	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:52:01 AM
First off, the guy would be about 75. Second, after he says, "consider the alternative," he talks about heing the "peice that dosen't fit," "there since the begining." Throughout all of Morrison's run, if read together, there are references to "dark master" and the Devil and the great evil. Unfortunately, I believe we are meant to believe Doctor Hurt is the Devil himself, hell bent on the corruption of virtue. Thomas Wayne is a red herring. Go back and read all the Morrison issues. It is spelled out pretty well. The only problem is, it still makes little sense. The Devil would really be yelling, "you moron" at the helicopter pilot and be worried about blowing up in the crash? And why would the Devil even be in a Batman story? It isn't like this is Spider-Man.
I loved the Invisibles. by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:53:14 AM
That was good stuff. Weren't they making a TV show out of it? What happened with that? So... is R.I.P worth the trade purchase or, as non regular reader of Batman, should I not really even bother?
Dr. Hurt by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:54:29 AM
Maybe he's just A devil and not THE Devil?
You shouldn't bother by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:04:12 AM
Seriously. Yo Laserhead, sadly Didio keeps making money for DC so it'll be a while. DC/Warner's tends to hold onto their EIC's unless the entire line is failing and though he's a douchey prick, the sales hits (Like Sinestro Corps War and the upcoming Blackest Night) do keep happening under his watch.
they alluded that Dr Hurt could be Thomas Wayne.... by RighteousBrother	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:11:25 AM
in a much earlier issue than 681. I liked the idea that Bruce was 'The Black Glove' but that was debunked a few issues earlier. I think there's something about the Devil in Gothic which Morrison wrote waaay back. I've enjoyed Morrisons run on Batman, I know Gaiman is doing a couple of issues, does anyone know if GM's coming back? Laserhead?
Grant Morrison is Jacques Derrida... by WavingFlagsInSpace	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:26:57 AM
…or something to that effect. After all, Jacques Derrida is one of the most revered/despised of modern philosophers, as Morrison is to the world of comics. Much of his work has been criticised for being obtuse, incoherent and even gibberish. As has Morrison's. Many claim to 'get' Derrida and turn their noses up at those that label him a 'phoney'. Those that debunk Derrida are met with the accusation that they don't understand him. All you have to do is like Morrison and you can claim you get him, if you don't like him it's because you don't get Him. But then one claims he's crap and no amount of evidence can persuade your opponent to the contrary because Morrison, like Derrida, and like God, cannot be questioned. The world of Grant Morrison is self-sustaining and critic-proof. He is the ultimate postmodern comic book writer, just as Derrida was to modern philosophy. And like Derrida, it's not the words – it's the performance and that's the secret to both getting and not getting.
Irony abounds... by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:29:15 AM
Robinson doesn't get Supes, while Morrison doesn't quite get Batman (though he seemed to in JLA, go figure). Robinson gets Batman, though and Morrison gets Superman. Look at their work past on those respective characters. The Thomas Wayne thing is such crapola, there's no way it can be "true." It would be as bad as JJ Abrams wretched ideas for Superman (and he seems to understand Trek's core more - we'll see).
R.I.P or P.O.S by JamesT	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:31:03 AM
I think you guys went a little overboard on Daniel's art. Hurt is not Thomas Wayne. I think Batman being the world's greatest detective would have figured that one out a while ago. I mean come on people!!
J.J. Binks 4 Prez in 2008 - could you restate that... by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:32:33 AM
...with smaller words? I couldn't understand what you were saying, and then I forgot what I was doing.
And Bug, you nailed it. by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:33:02 AM
With regard to Stan Lee in the '60s through early 70s. Spider-Man, FF, Thor, Cap, etc. Sure Kirby brought a ton to the party besides art on FF, Thor, Cap. Morrison has proven to be a great writer on certain titles and his original concepts as well. But it's working with the core material, not changing back-stories, facts, etc. to the extreme, that can make it great. For Batman, look at O'Neil, Wein, Englehart, Loeb, (some)Miller and Dini, to name the ones who got it right.
That was such a dumb moment. by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:33:55 AM
"What is your name?" "My name is James Tiberius Kirk!" Like all across the country, geeks are going: "James Tiberius Kirk? Gasp! Why thats Captain Kirk's name! Oh my God, that small child is no other than a young trouble making Kirk! SQUEEEEE!" Why not a series of mug shots or something instead? "My name is James Tiberius Kirk!" The rest of the trailer looked good though.
crankyoldguy by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:34:21 AM
THAT was an incredibly astute observation. Kudos.
Plus Bruce Wayne as new, New God? Ugh... by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:36:07 AM
Much cooler when Bruce Wayne as Batman took on Darkside in the Supergirl storyline of Superman-Batman book. But to make him one of the new New Gods, as it's been suggested? The Batman-on-Film guy Jett is really going to hate that one.
crankyoldguy by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:36:16 AM
The one about Bats and Supes and Morrison and Robinson, I mean.
by JamesT	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:37:13 AM
Since Mangrove cannot be the Black Glove I think the only alternative that Hurt was referring to is obviously.... Mike Hunt..
Thanks Amodeo by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:40:00 AM
Unlike some, I don't out and out hate the work of Robinson (though met him a few years back and found him a pompous ass at the time) or Morrison (who's kind of a nutjob in his own way as is). If you're willing to put yourself in a kid's view as a I do with my little boy, try those Batman, Superma, JL/JLU digest collections of the comics based on the various animated series; the stories are often great and may make you feel 6-10 years old again.
I used to like Loeb... by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:41:04 AM
but then I realized how many moments in Long Halloween he stole from other places. Then I read his other works and... pppppbbbbhhhttttt.
yes, Long Halloween lifts from Godfather and by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:47:15 AM
elsewhere, but it still works for me. Plus, wanna know how much Bob Kane used to swipe from other sources for Batman art? And after a comics hiatus for a few years, it was Hush that brought me back. Of course Jim Lee illustrating the most f-able Catwoman, Ivy and Lois ever didn't hurt, heh-heh...dirtyoldmancrankyold guy. I like a lot of Loeb's work, too. Though I think its Johns who understands the superhero ideal best when it comes to DC characters overall.
Theres a difference... by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:49:08 AM
between borrowing from, being inspired by, and stealing and their are scenes in Long Halloween that are practically transcribed word for word and that sours the book for me.
"there" not "their" by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:49:45 AM
damn lack of edit feature
With a name like Rock-me Amodeo by RenoNevada2000	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:52:22 AM
You would be into 80s one-hit wonders. :)
What can I say? ya nailed me :>) by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:20:11 PM
There's Velveeta in my veins, I confess.
He's not the fucking devil. Yeesh. by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:22:27 PM
Saying 'the piece that doesn't fit', 'there from the beginning' could certainly apply to THOMAS WAYNE. And why would he have to be 75? Is Batman 55?!?! ALLUDING to someone being the devil, as a possibility, is not the same thing as revealing them to be the devil. If he's the motherfucking devil, why does he give a shit that the helicopter explodes? Why does he walk around looking like Thomas Wayne? Why does he seem to perish a mortal end? FUCK THAT BULLSHIT THEORY. THE POINT IS THAT IN NO WAY IS IT MADE CLEAR WHO DR. HURT IS.
If you think Bug didn't understand R.I.P. by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:25:56 PM
read the review again. He understood it just fine. Morrison doesn't seem to understand the story he's telling, however. I'm as big a Grant Morrison fan as there is, but this habit among his zombies of telling everybody they're idiots if they don't understand his work is bullshit. New Morrison often writes illegibly now-- his "new writing style" tends to leave out things like reader orientation, logic, transitions, suspense, tension, etc.
Batman shouldn't be nihilistic deconstructionism by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:31:12 PM
I haven’t actually read all of Batman RIP, just scanned through them in the store and read about them here and on other sites. But Waving Flags in Space has compared Grant Morrison to Jacque Derrida, and if that is an accurate description then I can see where the series went wrong. Batman shouldn’t be about deconstructionism (and I am still trying to figure out how the fuck Derrida defined it), he isn’t about the abstract, about making things obscure and ambiguous and indecipherable, he is about the opposite of all that. Batman is about explaining the mysterious, about making sense out of that which seemed incomprehensible, and about bringing order to the world. Nietzsche once said, “Poets muddy their waters to make to make them looks deep.” Well, Batman is the opposite of a poet, he’s a detective, and he would figure a way to strain that mud out so you could see how shallow that puddle is. If you are going to do a story as this, you better make sure that in the end everything is explained in a satisfactory manner: that all the loose ends are figured out, and that everyone knows what happened. Not just Batman, but the audience as well. In the world of Batman, everything can be explained and he does his hardest to provide those explanations for us, his readers. So at the end of RIP, there should be no doubt by anyone whether or not Dr. Hurt, Thomas Wayne, Joe Chill, or Pierce Mangrove, adult star of the, “Mighty Joe Hung.” But the answer should make sense and be grounded in some sort of reality, and bring harmony to Batman and his world. Not disharmony and confusion.
J J Binks by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:31:53 PM
If you're calling Hulk 'good comics' you must be missing any kind of critical faculty whatsoever. Do you just label anyone with taste and values a "hater"?
Derrida was full of shit by Laserhead	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:32:28 PM
Just saying.
Whether you think the Hulk Comic is Good or Bad by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:37:19 PM
You have to understand someone might have a different opinion. Everyone looks at art differently. Rock-Me (one more time) Amodeo was just expressing his opinion, which I think he is contractually obligated to do so with AICN. And unless you can explain why you disagree with his assessment and offer a thoughtful counter argument, I don't think calling someone a hater is going to win many people over to your viewpoint.
I Repeat: by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:47:37 PM
Anyone using the nick "JJ Binks" in any capacity isn't showing a measurable quanta of cultural quality and likely has no concept of one. And please change the 'hater' record, it's as tired as your nick and the entire property that spawned it. "superhero comics for children" Really?? Jesus Christ on a stick, you ARE a clueless douchestain now aren't you?
Which one is more likely? by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 12:54:41 PM
1. Dr. Hurt is really the long gone Thomas Wayne or JJ Binks is actually the long gone (and perennial codpiece extraordinaire) Jeff Albertson! One thing is for sure: having an opinion different from yours doesn't make me a hater, and you having an opinion different from mine doesn't make you a douche. The way you express it, however, does.
I am not here to defend rock-me (long time) Amodeo by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:02:38 PM
But I will say that in his review he expresses that he saw a number of characters (Moon Knight, Sentry & Ms. Marvel) in the story for no real purpose that he could tell; that the Grey Hulk persona also shows up for no discernable reason, and that the Rulk goes around beating people up and fighting, but for once again no purpose. He seems to be saying he finds the Hulk comic currently pointless, rudderless and lacking any sort of story to invest in. That sounds like a review to me. By the way, I am willing to admit I like John Byrne.
I'm sorry, JJ, but by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:04:03 PM
you still haven't made any cogent points. You've only said that I haven't made any. Return when you have anything of substance to say.
So it's everyone else's fault... by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:16:46 PM
that you can't express yourself in an intelligible way. Niiiiiice.
Batman dies in a helicopter explosion? by MattmanReturns	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:17:14 PM
And you people still call Morrison a "genius"? I read Batman and Son and had no idea what the hell was going on. And now Dick Grayson is Batman? No. I'm sorry. Bruce Wayne is Batman, and always will be. And if he died, it certainly isn't in some helicopter crash. I won't read R.I.P. because none of it will matter in a year, when Bruce Wayne is back as Batman.
Grant Morrison by Mr.FTW	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:17:27 PM
Why do Marvel and DC continue to hire this guy for mainstream comics? He is first ond formost the greatest villian the X-Men ever faced and it looks like the same will stand true for Batman. On his own books he can be as out there as he wants. DC and Marvel need to come up with better things than rewriting characters and history. Even hintinh the Thomas Wayne may still be alive and a villian on top of it is almost as stupid as Gwen Stacey sleeping with Norman Osborn.
Maybe, maybe not by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:20:51 PM
Personally, I think he is winning.
Seem's like there's several folks here who don't "understand" yo by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:22:55 PM
But I think that will make more sense if you substitute the word "understand" for "agree with." It's so hard being so much smarter than everyone else, isn't it? Shhh....it's okay. Let it out, son. Let it out.
Gwen by Don Lockwood	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:23:05 PM
Hey, now that they rebooted Spider-Man, did that even happen? Oh god, please say no.
JJ by MattmanReturns	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:25:03 PM
I don't normally have trouble following complicated comic books, if that's what you're getting at. I just have trouble with Morrison's style. There's something very frenetic and confusing about his style, to me. It's not good storytelling, in my opinion.
Wait... is this guy defending Hulk and condemning Ultimates? by rev_skarekroe	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:27:01 PM
Isn't Jeph Loeb the "mastermind" behind both of these increasingly foolish books right now?
Oh I'm not 'riled' in the least... by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:30:11 PM
Of course, a delusional mind like yours would likely think so. Try getting out of your mom's basement once a decade or so, son.
Game, set and match. by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:30:17 PM
I notice that "the artist formerly known as Jeff Alberston" has reverted to type: just calling everyone stupid, and taking quotes from them, posting those quotes as subject lines, and calling more names. If the game being played here was "review and discuss some comic books" then I think we all win. But I admit, I was playing a different game for the last several comments. It's called "Poke the Troll" and frankly, it's impossible to lose, because it's so darn fun. Your opinion, my opinion...its a forum, you know? And really, your opinion is just as valid as mine. But, I respectfully add, not more so. I'm going to stop poking you now, JJ, partially because I don't want to take over the talkback, and partially because I don't want to be responsible for your head exploding like an extra from the set of "Scanners." But if you absolutely have no self-control, feel free to point a few more nasty diatribes my way. Its all in good clean fun.
I think he meant the Ultimate Line by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:30:23 PM
not the Ultimates comic. Grant Morrison keeps getting hired because he is good, hands down. He's good. Don't believe me? Go back to All Star Superman. The man is better than good, he's great.
I have fans? by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:30:45 PM
Woot!
But Loeb is the mastermind behind the Ultimate Line. by rev_skarekroe	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:31:49 PM
Isn't he heading up the big Ultimatum crossover project that's going on right now?
RE: J.J. Binks 4 Prez in 2008 by Mr. Nice Gaius	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:35:14 PM
Oh, make no mistake. He is indeed Jeff Albertson. And in a not-so-ironic twist, Jeff Albertson used to be (simply) Jar Jar 4 Prez. I'm sure there are several of you who remember him well. QUESTIONS FOR ALL YOU COMICS GUYS: Has J.J. Binks (aka Jeff Albertson, Tegujai Batir, Vog From Dimension X, OscarWilde4Prez, Jar Jar 4 Prez, etc.) ever done anything in these Talkbacks besides take shots at the editors and reviewers? Has he ever done anything but slam the Talkbackers by claiming how little they know about comics et al? Has he ever done anything but claim to "pwn" you? Does anyone know if he has ever submitted a review of his own? Surely someone as self-assured as that asshole would be capable of writing a review that blows the minds of all AICN Comics regulars, right?
JJ's literacy by MattmanReturns	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:38:30 PM
So you think you're literate because you read a Morrison comic? I guess I get no points for reading and understanding the Iliad. Don't bring literacy into a conversation about comic books.
I wouldn't hand Loed the keys by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:39:32 PM
to the Ultimate kingdom yet. By all accounts, Ultimates failed so badly they begged Millar back and Ultimatum has the distinct feeling of a non-event at this point. Its going on right now, you realize.
J.J. by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:39:55 PM
Man, I have to say I am a little surprised by your attitude. I haven't insulted you, called you a childish name, or questioned your morality or intelligence. I merely offered a different opinion from yours, and stated I thought Amodeo was winning in your debate. By the way, have you ever read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"?
Loeb, not Loed... by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:41:35 PM
of course,he is a "load" though. You know two things that are awesome? BND and Mark Millar.
Continentalop by MattmanReturns	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:43:07 PM
JJ's simply an asshole. He insists he's so much more intelligent than the rest of us, but there's nothing smart about being an asshole.
I wish Marvel had realized how wrong Loeb was for the Ultimate U by rev_skarekroe	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:44:58 PM
...back when he wrote those issues of Ultimate Power. I used to really like those books...
Joenathan by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:45:25 PM
Man you love BND and Mark Millar!
RIP is the first Morrison work to disappoint me. by hst666	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:47:17 PM
I have, however, read and understood (at least upon rereading) everything he has written, including RIP. And I do not understand people who find him incomprehensible. However, I have to admit that RIP was ultimately dull and anticlimactic and I am disappointed.
That's the best you can do? Really? by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 01:59:13 PM
"I'm smart, you're not nyhah nyah nyah!" Wow, and you call US sad.....
Contentalop and Rev by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:01:13 PM
Cont - I just like to bring it up. It adds to the chaos. Rev - I don't understand how they thought Loeb fit the Marvel universe, let lone the Ultimate imprint. That guy is a total Winnick.
On Understanding by optimous_douche	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:08:06 PM
I sincerely hope none of us are so naïve as to confuse understanding with basic reading comprehension. By the basic fact we are all contributing to this board I think literacy can be assumed. Perhaps we are quite simply arguing semantics at this point and “understand” is simply a poor word choice. I can “understand” every bubble of dialogue bubble in a Morrison book, but very often the cohesiveness of his stories are bound worse than the Gimp in Pulp Fiction. The man is brilliant, no doubt, as exhibited by his work on Superman and The Invisibles. It’s when he tackles on-going monthlies that the wheels fall off. Again, understanding is different than following the thread of the story. I bailed on RIP after the first two issues. Mind fuck Batman is just not my cup of tea. However I can speak to his lack of cohesiveness in FINAL CRISIS. And I can surmise it pretty succinctly. Too many threads. One minute we are with Darkseid, the next with Libra, One second we are at the beginning of time and next in the future. Hey do you like that Japanese super team, don’t get too attached they are now completely gone from the picture. And where the hell did all of the mini-monitors disappear to? They were pretty damn prominent in the first issue and now they are completely gone. The threads in and of themselves are A-OK, but it’s presented in such an ADD style you just don’t see the big picture. If you are a novelist fine, tease away, because all will be revealed at the end of your one purchase. When I’m buying monthlies though and four months go by without any sort of resolution of any kind, then is the time to get pissed. There's a difference between suspense and a cock tease.
What about X-men? by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:10:26 PM
That was monthly and a complete blast.
Joen X-Men by optimous_douche	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:11:59 PM
Agreed. I shouldn't be so broad based. Perhaps it is Quitely that helps ground him in reality.
Could be... by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:15:11 PM
Maybe Quietly "gets" what Morrison sees a little more easily and can translate it into the panels in a way that allows easier reader access.
Or Perhaps by optimous_douche	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:17:31 PM
Quitely reads the script and says, "Pip pip good chap, what the fuck does that mean?????" or "OK time to wrap this burrito up." Yes, I believe all Brits say pip pip before every sentence.
Batman by Bluejack	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:23:10 PM
I think Dick Grayson would be a fun Batman for a while with Damien as Robin and Tim the new Nightwing. Nightwing was a great book early on when he was in Bludville and he bangs lots of chicks which is always fun. Batman has been dark for a while, give Dick the keys to the Batmobile for a while and when Bruce returns there will be that much more contrast to his character. The ruthless Batman has already been done with Azrael. Time for something new.
Jimenez was also a good partner for Morrison by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:23:40 PM
His Invisibles run was my favorite.
The epilogue in R.I.P. ? by ian216a	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:25:41 PM
Was that suggesting that Dr Hurt's conditioning has been going on since, or before, Bruce's parents were killed? The boy Bruce seemed to mishear "Zorro in Arkham" as Zur En Arrh. Or could it be that Hurt choose that phrase as it was one of the last things Bruce heard he's father say? hmmm
Dick Grayson was already Batman once... by rev_skarekroe	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:27:44 PM
...right after Bruce got his back broken. For some reason he couldn't handle it and Azrael took over. Or something like that. It's been awhile since I read the story.
Invisibles by Bluejack	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:30:47 PM
I read the first trade and thought it was OK. From the talk here I may be missing out. Need x-Mas ideas for the friends por moi. The Thor cameo was very well done, it's my favorite Marvel character. strangely touching , I agree.
Favorite Marvel Character by Bluejack	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:32:23 PM
The cameo, that is. I do likes my Thor as well. JMS needs to have him smash some skulls (not skrulls) soon. Getting a little airy for me.
Rev...on Dick as Batman by Bluejack	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:35:54 PM
He was Batman for a very short time and they had him push too hard and then quit to make way for Azrael. Nightwing has matured as a character (Titans/Outsiders etc.). I'd love to see a freewheeling happy batman for a while with a darker Robin partner. Not forever, just until they bring Bruce back (which they will).
Invisible IS very good, but... by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:36:27 PM
admittedly its not everyone's cup of tea. Its definately conspiracy theory, fringe world, mysticism crazy. If you're not into the idea of a transexual hereditory shaman or a boy from East London destined to be the next Buddha (amongst others, including an obvious Morrison Mary Jane) fighting against (or for) the forces of control and normalcy, then pass it by.
Invisibles: Not to mention... by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:45:30 PM
The concept that our entire reality is a siege engine and that evolved souls like a Buddha or Christ (as Jack Frost was) are the ultimate bullet for supercontextual conflicts. Oh and sorry Joenathan but Ragged Robin was NOT an 'obvious Morrison Mary Jane'. Robin's look was based solely on Jill Thompson of Scary Godmother fame. That's straight from Grant in interviews on the book.
The ONLY Batman other than Bruce.... by Psynapse	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:46:33 PM
is Dick Grayson. Anyone else will be a fucking joke.
Psynapse by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:48:24 PM
A "mary Jane" is a literary term that describes a character that is very obviously a representation of the author, usually an idealized version, and as such, I was obviously then referring to King Mob.
Dick Grayson as Batman by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 02:54:48 PM
I have to admit, it makes the most sense and would be the logical conclusion. The reason Batman recruited Robin in the first place was he saw someone like himself, a boy who witnessed his parents murdered and desired justice. He then trained him in all of the skills he knows, everything you need to be a Batman, not only so he would act as his partner but also to act as his replacement in case of emergency or in case something happens to Bruce. I am sure that DC will want to to throw a curve ball and surprise everyone with someone else as Batman because Dick would be too obvious, but sometimes what is obvious and predictable IS the best solution.
Grayson's been his own man too long. by SleazyG.	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:06:11 PM
He's also not smart enough or driven enough to want the job. He'd take it because he'd feel like he had to, but he wouldn't like it, and he wouldn't stick with it. Tim Drake, on the other hand, is both A.) Bestest Robin Evar and B.)best man for the job.
optimous_douche by hst666	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:06:53 PM
Maybe it's a lack of communication, but some people appear to be stating they find his narratives confusing. I honestly don't know why. So he has a lot of disparate elements, he usually ties them together in a satisfying why, whether in monthly or short form. I take them at their word, because I actually talked to some people who found Pulp Fiction confusing when they first saw it. I am amazed at the number of people who require spoon-fed linear narratives. And I am NOT saying people who do not like Morrison are obtuse. I can totally understand not liking him, I cannot understand finding his stories confusing once they are completed.
way not why by hst666	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:07:28 PM

I wasn't so into the Filth, by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:29:25 PM
but maybe thats because of my hatred of bald men who insist on wearing toupees.
Laserhead by Doctor Manhattan	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:31:25 PM
If you read my post, you know I made the same points you did about it being ridiculous if it was the devil (including the helicopter crash), but Hurt is not fucking Thomas Wayne. First off, it would destroy the character of Batman down to the very core. The entire motivation for Batman would be erased. No way is DC signing off on that bullshit. Second, I many have exaggerated the age, but if Bruce is 35 or so, and Thomas Wayne was an accomplished doctor when Bruce was 8 years old, he is mid-60's at the youngest. The Hurt character looked no older than 45. I agree, the ending is very vague and no one knows who the hell Hurt actually is, but judging by Morrison's interviews, the books leading up to the issue 681, and his Gothic work, all signs are pointing to Morrison using the devil. Even Bruce is talking about releasing an ultimate evil by delving too deep into his consciousness. Why the hell would Thomas Wayne, super-philantrophist, who has been shown time and again as Gotham's savior and all around best guy ever, including just recently in Batman/Superman #50, be the source of ultimate evil? It actually makes LESS fucking sense than using Satan. And I wholeheartedly agree, it seems pretty retarded. But if Hurt is the anti-Christ, maybe he bleeds just as Jesus supposedly did. Who the hell knows what Morrison is thinking, but he sure had a lot of mystical mumbo jumbo in his Batman and 52 issues. I agree with you, no one knows what the fuck just went down, and if Morrison doesn't come back, no one will. Let's hope all is revealed in the final two Morrison issues.
Explosive Endings by Cinemanimetal	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:41:36 PM
So whats up with this new trend of explosion endings in Batman. I read Detective Comics and at the end of Heart of Hush it ends with a boring explosion in which gasp no body is found! Just another dumb we can't actually kill any characters so let's just have an explosion so we can show a reveal in a later comic that the character quickly pulled out a blow up doll version of himself and put it in the helicopter moments before exploding! Seriously though that Hush explosion was disappointing and now I read that Batman R.I.P. ends the same way only with Batman in the explosion this time? Is Final Crisis going to end with the DC Universe exploding just as everyone is about to jump into a portal out of the place? Oh no! Who made it out? Who are the oceanic 6? Find out next time in Final Crisis Part 2: We can't have a new crisis because we said we wouldn't but technically this is still the same crisis so its ok.
Batman So Not Dead, Expect Bruce Wayne Back Soon by LaserPants	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:45:32 PM
RIP was a POS. So obvious he's not dead, such a lame "death", Bruce Wayne will be back within 6 months at most. Bet on it.
The Hulk review by Reelheed	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:50:41 PM
is painfully on target IMO. The 2 story idea is fine in itself and I can see how you could do something really cool by telling a story from 2 totally different POVs over a series of issues but - WTF is going on atm? Seemingly 2 out of the blue scraps told in tiny fragments. There isn't any story at all and after the epic romp of Planet Hulk/WW:Hulk it just feels incredibly stupid. Speaking of stupid, someone needs to make their mind up once and for fucking all as to the hulks intelligence level and be done with it. Irksome and boring.
Joenathan by Mr.FTW	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:50:57 PM
All-Star Superman isn't what I was talking about, I'm talking about mainstream continuity. In something like the All-Star line or and Elseworlds if Morrison wants to make Jimmy Olsen Doomsday, have Superman be dieing from the get go or any of the other reconed continuity that's fine. When it comes to rewriting history with the building blocks of a character or inventing brand new traits for characters like secondary mutations that have wide effects on a comic universe at large that will later have to be cleaned up in some major way is what I'm talking about. Morrison works best when working in his own universe where he pull whatever kind of screwball crap he wants but when it comes to mainstream he is the kind of writer who wants to put his own stink on things. I'm not debating on his worth or skill as a writer I'm saying why do they allow him to screw with things that will only become a mojor problem later.
J.J Binks is suddenly gone by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:55:57 PM
As if he was erased from our past as if he never was, but their is still awkward reminders of him once existing. This is the BDN of the talkback board. Which of you guys made a deal with a/the devil?
Joenanthan by Continentalop	Dec 3rd, 2008 03:58:55 PM
Because of this, I am beginning to completely reevaluate my opinion on BND.
It totally makes sense, doesn't it? by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 04:06:03 PM
Desperate situations call for desperate measures.
FTW by Joenathan	Dec 3rd, 2008 04:10:37 PM
Well, first off, his name sells. Secondly, anything he "screws" with can be "fixed". Thirdly, when hes on, he strikes gold. Finally, it seems like the titles he gets drawn to, in the main stream world, are usually at that point in their run where they're getting a bit saggy, where they're feeling a bit stodgy and slow and worn out and Morrison, at the very least, is garaunteed to give the book the kick in the ass jumpstart it needs. Like him or not, Morrison ALWAYS leaves a mark on his books. Sometimes "fixing" the problems he leaves behind can lead to some really cool moments.
Damn, I missed all the fun..... by BangoSkank	Dec 3rd, 2008 05:36:32 PM
I would like to say that I'm glad someone else enjoyed X-Force as much as I did.... I never would have thought that it would be my fav of the week.... At least, on any week that I received more than one comic in the mail. I think they shot themselves in the foot by bringing back 32 different X-men villains in the first issue, but the last couple have been great.... I'm glad I didn't stick with Hulk past the first issue.... I'm not a Loeb fan, and am glad I didn't waste the money..... I gave Ultimatum a chance, and won't bother going back to that for seconds either. What were they think? Although I had some problems with WW Hulk, they could have gone in a lot of directions.... Instead they chose to absolutely kill the momentum by going with Rulk.... Not that I have an issue with two Hulks, I just have an issue with the suckage that is Loeb's storytelling.....
Why... by BangoSkank	Dec 3rd, 2008 05:38:40 PM
no edit feature? Why?
RIP by Slaphappy Slim	Dec 3rd, 2008 05:55:20 PM
Not one bit of why this story fails is because of the artist. What Morrison did for 6 issues is suggest a thousand different possibilities and delivered nothing game changing, unless you actually believe that really was Thomas Wayne. Tony Daniel is just about the only thing to endorse about this dud.
This is why.......... by gooseud	Dec 3rd, 2008 06:14:58 PM
I tend not to read the biggies (Superman, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man)........because all change is illusory. Nothing will ever change with them and nothing is ever at stake. There will be a million fake deaths/earth shattering events, but the status quo will always return due to commerce concerns (and not the demands of the story). Its why I tend to gravitate to stories that dont carry the weight of 50 years of history (Walking Dead, Ex Machina, Preacher back in the day) or little corners of the universe that editorial doesnt really notice (Nova or anything Annihilation). Or occasionally a "biggie" if someone with real talent is coming on, but they are on a short leash (Cap and Thor)
Okay I just read Resurrection of Rhas al Ghul... by MattmanReturns	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:01:56 PM
in a futile attempt to give Morrison another chance. I've had that graphic novel lying around for months, and every time I try to read it, I become insanely bored. Well I forced myself through it. You guys are right... Morrison is not a confusing writer, he's just a poor writer with too many plotlines and no focus. I also don't care for his dialogue, such as this gem from Talia to Batman: "Rhas al Ghul is INEVITABLE. You... you are INDESCRIBABLE." Oh well... I'm heading back to Gotham Central. THAT'S well written.
New Bat vs. New Cap-A DC/Marvel X-over by crankyoldguy	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:19:15 PM
Dick Grayson as the new Bat versus Richard 'Bucky' Barnes as the new Cap. Dick hands the supposedly tough-as-nails, KGB-trained former Winter Soldier his sorry ass. Bruce actually smiles from the shadows..."that's my boy." Meanwhile, Steve Rogers returns from the dead because he made a deal with Memphisto - it worked for Peter, so...
Robin Vs. Bucky by gooseud	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:28:50 PM
Would looke something like the swordfight from Raiders when Indy pulls the gun on the arabian swordsman, fight over.
I'm Worried... by optimous_douche	Dec 3rd, 2008 07:50:44 PM
With Kingdom Come becoming part of regular continuity, that other Elseworld or alternate realities might bleed in. Picture RIP being the 5 year predecessor to synching Bats up with The Dark Knight Returns...
Batman RIP... by loodabagel	Dec 3rd, 2008 09:35:12 PM
Because I am a pretentious art snob, I didn't actually find the story that confusing. Tony Daniel is usually a good artists, but there were a few moments here and there where I didn't know what was going on. Joker torturing that Gargoyle guy? I thought it was a different person entirely. I was never too concerned with Hurt's real identity. I think I just assumed that it really was Hurt. Obviously, Batman wasn't going to die. It's one thing to kill off Captain America, but Batman has multiple comics he needs to appear in, let's be serious. I just cruised through the story on autopilot, enjoying the cool moments and sharp, obtuse dialogue. (Grant Morrison can leave out mores words than a Wes ANderson character.) The story had it's moments, which is all it turned out to be in the end, a lot of good moments, but not necessarily cohesing to form a good story.
R.I.P? Really? by Juggernaut125	Dec 3rd, 2008 10:31:48 PM
I stopped collecting comics about 6 years ago. Nightwing was one of my favs. And I will agree with all of you above who say that Bruce will definitely be back. Six months tops. But I disagree with SleazyG. Dick is too SMART to take on the mantle of the Bat. In the Bane stories, Bruce gave it to Azrael first because he felt Dick had become his own man and wouldn't WANT to fill the shoes of his mentor. Dick only took up the cape and cowl after Az fucked up the job royally.
Morrison a hack??? Really now! by Jaypeep	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:07:08 PM
Have you read his Doom Patrol or Invisibles?? I totally agree that when he sucks, he can deflate the biggest dick; but when he is on, it's brilliant. He breathed life back into Xmen (while at the same time suffering from a few serious misfires) when all of the xtitles sucked ass. I think the guy just needs to back away from the mind-altering substances. Look at Invisibles. Books 1 and 2 were incredible; but book 3 became a messy stream of consciousness that I can't even bother to re-read. All I'm saying is that the man if far from a hack.
Everything sucking, Gooseud by Jaypeep	Dec 3rd, 2008 11:10:35 PM
Have you checked out Locke and Key? I just got the hardback collecting the first story arc and when I finished it, I turned back to the first page and re-read it. I would say that it and Umbrella Factory are bright stars in a sea of mediocre mainstream comics.
Laserhead... by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 03:51:12 AM
"Why do you thnk Batman would know? - He hasn't seen his father in 30 years. He wouldn't know if the guy had plastic surgery or anything else. If his dad is still alive, Batman obviously DOESN'T know him at all." - - - - - - - - As Doctor Manhattan said earlier, from the way that Tony Daniel has drawn him, it seems pretty obvious that Hurt is far too young to be Thomas Wayne. Batman would know this. Alfred has already stated outright that it isn't Thomas Wayne in an earlier issue. Hurt acknowledges that the documents that Gordon was reading earlier in the story (which revealed that Thomas Wayne was alive) were faked. I don't think that there's really any likelihood that Hurt is Thomas Wayne.
Joenathan... by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 03:51:39 AM
Yes, I'd recommend the TPB of "Batman R.I.P.". But I'd definitely start from the beginning of Morrison's run (with the "Batman and Son" TPB, then the "Black Glove" TPB) as everything in "R.I.P." builds off those earlier stories. Oh, and the phrase that describes an obvious avatar of the author or a favourite character isn't "Mary Jane" - it's "Mary Sue".
Don Lockwood... (re. Gwen) by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 03:52:01 AM
"Hey, now that they rebooted Spider-Man, did that even happen? Oh god, please say no." - - - - - - - - Well, Norman alluded to it in a recent issue of Warren Ellis' "Thunderbolts" - so I'd say yes. Unfortunately.
MattmanReturns... by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 03:52:22 AM
"Don't bring literacy into a conversation about comic books. " - - - - - - - - I think that that statement does the medium a disservice. Yes, many (most) comics are hardly high art, and don't require a particularly high standard of literacy. But some of them achieve more than that, and stand as worthy literature. Oh, and regarding "The Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul", I agree, it was a very poor story. But, to be honest, I don't think that you can lay all of its problems at Morrison's feet. Here's my review: http://tinyurl.com/6ze872
ian216a... (re. The epilogue in R.I.P. ?) by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 03:53:11 AM
"Was that suggesting that Dr Hurt's conditioning has been going on since, or before, Bruce's parents were killed? The boy Bruce seemed to mishear "Zorro in Arkham" as Zur En Arrh. Or could it be that Hurt choose that phrase as it was one of the last things Bruce heard he's father say? hmmm" - - - - - - - - I don't think that it necessarily suggests that Hurt has been conditioning Bruce since before his parents were murdered. I agree with your second statement: that Hurt chose that phrase because it had special meaning for Bruce as the last thing he heard Thomas Wayne say. Also, the final panel reversal of "Zur En Arrh" suggests a reversal of "Zorro in Arkham": Arkham in Zorro. Could this be an allusion to the madness in Batman?
Suuuuuuure you were..... by Psynapse	Dec 4th, 2008 07:23:42 AM
...........
Mortitorium On "You Don't Get It"... by Buzz Maverik	Dec 4th, 2008 07:30:32 AM
Bury that one. If I like it and you don't, I'm gonna figure that you understood it but it didn't please your sensibilities in some way. Buzz Maverik's Fan Improvement Rule # 86: The other guy isn't stupid for disagreeing with you.
alfiemoon by LaserPants	Dec 4th, 2008 07:54:58 AM
I like your idea of Zur En Arrh being some weird psychic echo of "Zorro in Arkahm." I kinda took the epilogue as a HUGE hint that, as we all know, Bruce Wayne isn't dead, just in some kind of fugue dreamstate awaiting rebirth in t-minus 6 months tops... Still, as interesting as some moments of RIP were, it was mostly stupid and pointless. The Detective Comics story was much more fun to read and ultimately more satisfying.
I disagree with you, Buzz Maverik. by rev_skarekroe	Dec 4th, 2008 08:19:41 AM
You're stupid and you don't get it.
alfiemoon by Laserhead	Dec 4th, 2008 08:24:18 AM
Hurt NEVER said the documents were faked. NEVER. Alfred and Bruce both said 'You're not Thomas Wayne' and both times Hurt insisted he was. Nobody has 'refuted' that he's Thomas Wayne-- they've denied it, but he went down still claiming to be Thomas Wayne. My argument here is that you guys can't say AT ALL whether or not Hurt was Thomas Wayne, BECAUSE NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS.
Literacy and comic books by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 4th, 2008 08:33:38 AM
When I was a senior in high school, we used to use this booklet called "Word Power" for vocabulary tests. On each page were several words, their definitions and examples: words at freshman level, words at sophomore, etc, including a word that was considered college level. Each week, we had a test, worth 25 points, one for each word we were tested on. About a month before the end of the school year, the teacher said that if we could bring in an example of any word at senior or college level, she would give one extra point on any vocab test we had taken, up to a maximum of 100 percent on any test. I asked my teacher if comic books counted, and she laughed out loud, and said that IF (if!) I could find one, she would count it. So I went through my comic-books and began noting pages that had relevant words. (Though I was loath to do it, I found my treasured copies of the Avengers Kree-Skrull War particularly helpful, and brought them out of bags just for the occasion.) Not only did I easily find enough words to bring by vocab scores up to 100 percent for the entire year, but I was able to, uhn, "rent" my comics to other seniors so that they could use the comics that I didn't need. Blew my teacher's mind, and she wasn't laughing anymore,, though she was initially stunned. She was convinced I was just using the same comics over and over, so she had me bring them back in so she could record the title and issue number. And of course, I never needed to try and scam her on THAT point. With a stack of about 30 comics, I was able to locate about 80 words. That's not even counting the words that were freshman, sophomore or junior. I can't judge if comics today are written at that level, like they were in 1982 and before, but that's one small example of the amazing, incredible, uncanny and spectacular literacy of comics.
Laserhead... by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 08:59:42 AM
It feels as though you won't accept that Hurt isn't Thomas Wayne without the character himself stating "I am not Thomas Wayne!". A vast majority of the clues in the story point to the fact that he isn't Thomas Wayne - so I'm pretty sure that he isn't, and that he's just messing with Batman. Having said that, Morrison's stories generally (and "R.I.P." in particular) tend to lend themselves to more than one interpretation. You're entitled to your view that Hurt may be Thomas Wayne; personally, I don't see it that way, because most of Morrison's hints have pointed to a different conclusion. Indeed, even if Hurt stated outright that he wasn't Thomas Wayne, a creatively-minded reader could probably find an argument to say that he was lying, and that he secretly was Thomas Wayne. Morrison isn't writing comics that spell things out explicitly: his current work for DC has purposely avoided the kind of clunky exposition (whether through dialogue or captions) that readers often rely on for information. There are certain disadvantages to this approach: some readers may misinterpret elements of his stories because they aren't spelled out clearly, and his stories may not hang together as well as he thinks they do. The advantages, however, are a greater sense of verisimilitude, and an openness to interpretation that allows his stories to retain a certain amount of ambiguity. So, you're right - you COULD interpret the story as being the story of Thomas Wayne trying to break his son. However, I think that there are other explanations that fit the story far better, and personally, I've rejected the Thomas Wayne theory completely.
AICN Comics Talkback by Bluejack	Dec 4th, 2008 09:06:46 AM
Status post purge, this has been a great talkback. When there are ad hominem attacks I almost give up, then we have a cool gem like this and I start posting more. RE:Tim Drake, he is a great character and would be a great Batman. If you follow Teen Titans, he is Batman in the future, and a bit of a dick-head. That MIGHT push Tim away from assuming hte mantle. Pushing him towards that role is the loss of his Dad. What's going on with Spoiler by the way? alive or dead. I'm not a main title Batman guy, but I nibble at the fringe with Nightwing and Robin up until a year or so ago, so I'm looking forward to "Battle for the Cowl."
Secret Six by Bluejack	Dec 4th, 2008 09:10:53 AM
Anyone else reading this? I love the reveal at the end of the last issue. "Monopoly" meets "Secret Six." As a big fan of Suicide Squad I'm enjoying SS. Deadshot makes a great foil and the Catman/Deadshot interaction is a throwback to Flagg/Deadshot. I'm into redemption stories, what can I say. Any thoughts on Thunderbolts? I missed out on Ellis and I've been waiting for trades. I read the title until about when Hawkeye joined and jumped ship.
Vocabulary words... by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 09:19:11 AM
Word is born.
Bluejack by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 09:22:14 AM
I just read the first Ellis Thunderbolts trade yesterday. As much as I can't stand my man Speedball all done up in his torture suit, I really enjoyed the comic. It's wicked brutal but it gives some c-list heroes a chance to shine.
Not surprised, rock-me Amodeo by rev_skarekroe	Dec 4th, 2008 09:26:18 AM
Stan Lee loved using those ten cent words.
Tim Drake as Batman - big problem by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 4th, 2008 09:27:35 AM
I agree, I think Drake would be excellent, and I don't think Nightwing has the temperament or desire to be Batman. But as recently as this last issue of Blue Beetle, Drake states that he's not even old enough to vote. Now, I know, depending on who's drawing him, he stands shorter than Wolverine or almost as tall as Nightwing, but I don't think anyone in Gotham is going to be sold on a seventeen year old assuming the mantle of The Batman.
Literary Comic Books by Bluejack	Dec 4th, 2008 09:36:10 AM
In college, I told my roomate to read "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchmen." I told him that if Monet and Shakespear worked together everyone would read it. It's just a different medium. It can be deep and meanful and it can be low and petty, just like any other artistic medium. This idea that a medium has an intrinsic intellectual/cultural value is BS. The value of any media can only be subjective. Use of a medium can be more or less technically difficult to achieve a particular representation of an artistic idea (i.e. sculpting in stone might, I stress MIGHT be more difficult than drawing in crayon) but once again that is entirely subjective.
Thanks Joen by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 09:37:45 AM
I read T-bolts on your recommendation. Between that and Nextwave, your batting 1000 on the Warren Ellis comic book recommendations.
Nextwave by Bluejack	Dec 4th, 2008 09:48:37 AM
Is that out in trade yet? What is the premise? I looked a bit at it, and i've always enjoyed Machine Man.
Ha! sorry for the interuption guys... by just pillow talk	Dec 4th, 2008 09:51:30 AM
But I'm not sure why Jeff Albertson (Jar Jar) keeps annoying the hell out of you guys. I applaud you boys in continuing as if he didn't even exist. Now excuse me while I let you guys continue your discussion. Peace comic lovers.
Yesterday by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 09:52:49 AM
Did anyone else go into their LCS yesterday and stand there looking at the stacks for a minute and then go, “I thought all these comics came out last week…” then look up and see a sign that says, ”due to holiday new comics will be shelved on Thursday.” Then just walk around for a minute blankly in stunned silence while the counter guy monitors your reaction to make sure you don’t break anything? And then finally walk out into the sun, covering your eyes, and feeling mildly empty inside? That happened to me. I hope that never happens again
Nextwave by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 10:04:27 AM
From Wikipedia: Nextwave consistently features extreme violence and comedy, and simultaneously satirizes and celebrates Marvel's superhero comics. The series frequently uses flashback scenes in which existing Marvel characters such as Captain America, Ulysses Bloodstone and the Celestials act grossly out of character for comedic purposes. In an interview, Ellis said, "I took The Authority and I stripped out all the plots, logic, character and sanity."[6] "It’s an absolute distillation of the superhero genre. No plot lines, characters, emotions, nothing whatsoever. It’s people posing in the street for no good reason. It is people getting kicked, and then exploding. It is a pure comic book, and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. And afterwards, they will explode." So essentially the premise is "awesome." There are two trades out.
steverodgers (Re. Ellis' Thunderbolts) by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 10:05:40 AM
Yeah, the Ellis Thunderbolts run was great. I recommend picking up v.2 ("Caged Angels") for the second half of it. It just came out a few weeks ago.
Bluejack (re. nextwave) by alfiemoon	Dec 4th, 2008 10:07:46 AM
Yep, there are two trades of nextwave, comprising all 12 issues. It's difficult to sum up the premise, other than that it's a bizarro take on the Marvel Universe as seen through the lens of Warren Ellis at his funniest. I definitely recommend it. And if you like Machine Man, you get a lot of him here.
Question by Bluejack	Dec 4th, 2008 10:08:55 AM
Thunderbolts v. Suicide Squad for best villain team book of all time (Secret Six not in the equation yet IMHO. If you want to argue that then feel free).
My theory on the Dr. Hurt non-reveal by Laserhead	Dec 4th, 2008 10:58:20 AM
I think Morrison had originally written a much more definitive reveal for Hurt. I think that in lieu of The Dark Knight, much of Morrison's plan has been scrapped, and the ending to R.I.P. remained mostly the same as it ever was, only the villain is left ambiguous so that whatever writers pick up the book next can offer a solution that works for the character going forward. When asked recently if Morrison was still coming back to Batman after the Battle for the Cowl, he said, "Grant's got so many great Batman stories to tell, we're going to find a venue for them." Which sounds like Grant's plans for the continuity version might have been scrapped. I mean, R.I.P. was touted as the most mind-blowing change to the Batman mythos in 0 years. That definitely didn't happen. Another possibility is that Morrison wanted Hurt to remain some kind of identifiable evil, maybe to give him symbolic weight, but if that's the case it actually diffuses all sense of pay-off and significance to the story, for me. And, I don't know, maybe if right before he punched through the copter window, Bruce saw a goat's head with flaming eyes, or even the image of the fallen angel from 'Gothic', I'd be inclined to say, Yep. Hurt was the devil. But there's nothing to indicate Hurt isn't a normal man. Nothing. In that case, he could be anybody. I personally wouldn't have been upset if it was Thomas Wayne. I actually liked the idea, and it doesn't change Batman's essential mission: his mother and himself would still have been the victims of crime, and now instead of two parents to avenge, he has one.
alphiemoon-- Morrison's 'openness' by Laserhead	Dec 4th, 2008 11:08:28 AM
I don't find much of Morrison's super-hero work 'open to interpretation'. The ending of The Filth? The Invisibles? Sure. But going back as far as Animal Man, and up to All Star Superman, his super-hero work is very cohesive and not given to unnecessary ambiguity; I don't think this is a case where ambiguity adds verisimilitude either. At all. Ambiguity isn't necessarily a good thing, and in a story about a super-hero who dresses like a bat and creates a back-up personality for himself and speaks to a magic bat-costumed imp, I don't think verisimilitude, as it applies to an accurate representation of life as lived, is really what an author should be going for. I don't think shit is added to the story by being unclear about Hurt's identity, other than leaving it open for another writer to make use of before Morrison wrecks the Bat-verse totally. SO: with regard to the uses of ambiguity and verisimilitude, I'll just say that I don't think Morrison's "Doom Patrol" should be more coherent than Morrison's "Batman."
Me Like Rulk! by Homer Sexual	Dec 4th, 2008 11:14:23 AM
Seriously, I am no fan of Jeph Loeb. His Heroes episodes were even worse than most of his comics. But having said that.... I friggin' love Rulk! It is one of my top ten reads, and I buy over 30 books a month. The other Hulk story is good for me, too. But I am not a regular Hulk fan. Yeah, it is all dumb and exaggerated, but I find it to be fun, fast-moving and highly entertaining. Incredible Hercules is still waaay better than Hulk ever was, including World War Hulk. That book is in my top 5. I am also not a regular Batman reader, but got sucked in to RIP. Having read it, it was fine but certainly not moving or monumental. The guy at my LCS expalined the references to me and showed me the Rainbow Batman, but I just can't imagine many people could possible pick up on that without assistnace. Just like the reviewers said, it was a fun story but that's about it and certainly doesn't have any impact, much less the huge impact Bruce giving up the cowl should have. Still, I will pick it up to see who the new Batman is, and again I agree w/reviewers: Dick deserves it but Jason would be more interesting. Wonder Woman, IMO, was really good when Rucka wrote her. But my all time favorite run involved Artemis, Diana not being WW for a while, I think Meissner-Loebs wrote it and it was drawn by the guy who used to draw Thunderbolts, he draws long-legged sexy women. Aargh! Why can't I think of his name. Somebody help me.
Deodato by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 4th, 2008 11:22:26 AM

Thomas Wayne was always shown as a good man by crankyoldguy	Dec 4th, 2008 11:30:46 AM
A Doctor, a healer. A father who loved his son, his wife. This idea of him being evil - nonsense. Crappy nonsense. So the T. Wayne thing better be a ruse. If not, it's like Spider-Man's Uncle Ben having secretly been a pedophile or Ma Kent seducing a teen Pete Ross (ugh...there's a thought I don't want to have again).
Thank you Amadeo by Homer Sexual	Dec 4th, 2008 11:57:26 AM
That was driving me crazy. Loved your review, BTW. Totally agree with it. Now, Thomas Wayne as Dr. Hurt would be very lame and awful, but it would still be better than "the Devil" or "A Devil" or whatever. My issue with Morrison is his weak endings. This isn't the first time I've hung in there waiting for a conclusion that turned out to be unsatisfying. Maybe DiDio is partly to blame. Still, pretty weak ending.
alfiemoon by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 02:01:27 PM
You are correct. It is Mary Sue, God damn that Mephisto (one of many devils) hes messing with my memory using magic, so therefore I did not notice the mistake. heh
Bluejack by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 02:09:08 PM
Ellis's Thunderbolts is phenomenal. Get them.
Well then Steve... by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 02:16:25 PM
Please tell me that you've read Planetary. Because if you haven't, you need to start. Planetary gets my vote for best superhero comic ever. Okay, maybe it doesn't beat Watchman and Dark Kight, maybe, but it sure as hell is right on their asses.
Steve, part 2 by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 02:22:55 PM
Forgetting about a delayed comic book day is crushing. You just don't know what to do except look around blankly and then trudge away. Luckily, I remembered this week.
You want to know how good Thunderbolts was? by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 02:29:06 PM
He made Jack Flag (who used to have a rocket launching boom box) and American Eagle not only cool, but kick ass. Also, I would kill to see the Captain from Nextwave put into regular continuity.
Sorry, but the best comics ever... by Continentalop	Dec 4th, 2008 02:36:33 PM
..In my opinion are Kirby & Lee's run on FF (#50-70), O'Neil & Adams run on Batman, and pretty much everything Stan Lee did on Spider-Man. Sure Watchmen, Dark Knight & even Planetary are great, but they are post-modern deconstruction of the super-hero genre. You have to first construct something before you can deconstruct, and Kirby, Lee, Adams, Ditko and the rest did a great job of creating so many interesting and complex things for guys like Miller, Moore, Grant and Ellis to tear down.
Batman RIP HOLY CRAP by mattb127	Dec 4th, 2008 02:49:40 PM
Okay, I thought this totally sucked, sucked sucked...then I picked up Batman 682, and I gotta say, this has just gone from one of the lamest Batman stories I've ever read to one of the coolest. Grant Morrison not only knows his Batman lore, but he's slingshot it forward into a 21st century and he's made 70 years of continuity make total sense. Somehow, ALL of Batman's history is now legitimate. All of it. The weird 50s era, the 60s camp–– all the way up to modern tense. Seriously, I can admit when I made a mistake. I'm going back and rereading Batman RIP immediately.
Seriously, RIP by mattb127	Dec 4th, 2008 02:55:56 PM
Know I freaked out in the last post, but seriously, my mind is officially blown. Rarely will I say, "I'm surprised," but I am totally surprised, and it explains so much of the last 18 months of Batman books, which have been weird but strangely coherent--hats off to Didio, a man I've frequently disagreed with–– for giving Morrison the kind of patience to pull something like this off. I think this is one of the coolest twists I've ever read–– it's all been from his point of view, all of it...
And as for putting the keys in Morrison's hands... by mattb127	Dec 4th, 2008 03:01:22 PM
This is way better than infinite crisis or identity crisis. I wish they'd manage to release one of the main "Final Crisis" books once a month, instead of once every 17.5 weeks, but I am just totally on board with Final Crisis now, especially as it pertains to the Batman.
Any of you seen this Batman-related site? by Mavra Chang	Dec 4th, 2008 03:03:02 PM
http://tinyurl.com/6ohyng
Planetary by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 03:09:20 PM
I did read Planetary, but I was borrowing them from the older creepy close/long talking lonely guy that lived across the hall from my girlfriends apartment at the time. We were taking care of his cats and he had like one million trade paperbacks, and I was trying to read them all before he came home so I didn’t have to return them in person. So I read Planetary on skim cycle, and I really liked it, but I don’t think I soaked it all in. I remember the issue that has the Batman being especially awesome. I should read them again though without the specter of wildly awkward social interaction hanging over my head.
American Eagle/Jack Flag by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 03:24:33 PM
Were unbelievably cool in Thunderbolts. American Eagle could not have been more bad ass as he toyed with Bullseye. Ellis gets my vote as the guy that should be writing New Warriors. Imagine how dope Night Thrasher would be if Ellis was writing him.
Continentalop by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 03:40:10 PM
I take that into consideration and still laud Planetary for its genius. Besides, it could be argued that while one could not have existed without the other, that simple fact does not automatically make the latter of lesser quality.
steve by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 03:45:30 PM
I agree, comics are always more enjoyable when read without some creepy old guy looming over your shoulder. The same could also be said of showering. Alright, you got me. I would line up for an Ellis penned Night Thrasher. Speaking of New Warriors, do you think Justice is sterile? I bet he is, because Firestar's powers are microwave based right? Well, rubbing your balls up against a microwave repeatedly can't be good for your sperm. Justice (first date): "Ow! My Sperm!" Justice (second date): Huh, it didn't hurt that time."
Joen by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 04:08:27 PM
Hmmm you have to think that Vance was making a pretty calculated decision when he climbed into bed with Firestar. Although he was potentially ending his chance of having children in the future he would be able to answer the question that Speedball was always asking, “do the curtains match the drapes?” Sorry that was a tiny bit Juvenile… but still , you know Speedball wanted to know. Also generally speaking there are very few situations that you want a creepy old guy watching over your shoulder - maybe only if you are training to be a martial arts master in Kun' Lun.
Stan Lee is Elvis. by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:15:57 PM
Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, Frank Miller, etc, are the Beatles and The Rolling Stones.
Neil Gaiman is Bob Dylan,,, by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:16:57 PM
Garth Ennis is the Sex Pistols.
Alan Moore is the Beatles, by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:19:45 PM
Frank Miller is the Rolling Stones, Grant Morrison is the Velvet Underground, Will Eisner is the Beach Boys, Waren Ellis is David BOwie, Mark Millar is Black Flag, Brian Michael Bendis is REM, Marv Wolfman is The Who.
Jack Kirby is? by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 04:19:45 PM

And so on. by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:20:06 PM

Jack Kirby is BB King by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:20:37 PM

From now on... by loodabagel	Dec 4th, 2008 04:21:14 PM
All artists will be compared to rock and roll guitarists.
I suppose by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 04:38:01 PM
Justice can't be blamed. After all, every red head in the Marvel Universe is a goddess given flesh, so... Actually, I don't think Justice and Firestar did it, so his balls are probably safe, I mean, except for his constant wearing of a spandex unitard, that is. Remember that "very special" episode of New Warriors where Vance obliterated every bone in his abusive dad's body and he got sentenced to time in The Vault (post Tony Armor War whipping the Gaurdsmen's asses, I believe) and the New Warriors busted him out, but he was such a hero he decided to serve his time and he and Firestar had one last quiet moment and they decided to wait and keep their first time special... proving once and for all, the New Warriors were huge fucking nerds.
I would say Frank Miller is now probably... by stones_throw	Dec 4th, 2008 04:38:56 PM
...someone like John Lydon. Once great, capable of innovation on stuff like SIN CITY or MARTHA WASHINGTON (i.e. Public Image Ltd.), but content to piss away the legacy for shock value and easy money. Alan Moore is already kind of a British Bob Dylan, although he does fit better as the Beatles. I guess that would make LOVE AND THEFT and MODERN TIMES the ABC stuff. Can't wait for Bob's BLACK DOSSIER...
Steve Ditko=Syd Barrett. by stones_throw	Dec 4th, 2008 04:41:32 PM
Jim Steranko is Jimi Hendrix. Neal Adams can be Eric Clapton.
Judd Winnick is Richard Marks. by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 04:47:55 PM
Rob Liefeld is Vanilla Ice.
Todd Macfarlane is Lars Ulrich... by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 04:49:03 PM
a big douchebag
Re: I suppose by steverodgers	Dec 4th, 2008 04:56:39 PM
Joen that was the definitive post on the New Warriors. Hilarious.
Best New Warriors quote: by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 05:03:00 PM
After Speedball and the others get their asses handed to them by retarded-ass Leifeld X-Force creation Gideon, who mimics powers: Gideon stands over a beaten Speedball, wearing nothing but a robe and carrying an unconcious Night Thrasher over his shoulder. Speedball: "Ah... Mr. Gideon, sir? ...How do you make your speedballs do that?"
No way Millar is Black Flag. by SleazyG.	Dec 4th, 2008 05:24:22 PM
If you're talking punk, he's more like The Offspring: they seemed like they might be talented at first, but then he showed he was more interested in cheap laughs and recycled riffs, so you stopped caring about anything he did. And then every once in a while you see something on the shelves, and you're like "hey, they're still around?" and then you hear a new song that's not good, but it's better than a lot of their more recent stuff, so you almost cave and pick it up to give it a shot. Then you remember "Get A Job", and you say to yourself "fuck it...no way I'm gonna waste any more money on a Mark Millar book", but you know that given the chance you'd totally hang out and get shitfaced with the guys in the band, cuz I'm sure they're a lotta fun and I'd rather buy 'em all a pint and a shot than spend that money on "Old Man Wolvie".
Kevin Smith is Guns N Roses by the milf lover	Dec 4th, 2008 06:16:34 PM
with years of delay between each new issue of Daredevil Target.
Never said lesser quality by Continentalop	Dec 4th, 2008 06:24:52 PM
Only stating my opinion. But I freely admit bias. I also prefer older films to modern ones, and think that older bands are better then modern bands (and don't even get me started on modern "Country" music).
Best New Warriors quote by Continentalop	Dec 4th, 2008 06:26:11 PM
is the one I made to my brother after I bought issue #1: "Why the F@%! did I buy this?!"
No Sleazy by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 11:37:15 PM
Millar is Green Day. As in a lot of the aging scenesters may call foul, but god damn are they successful.
There you go, Continentalop by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 11:41:12 PM
Bias. I wasn't really looking for a blue ribbon winner, though. Country music? Gross.
New Warriors #1? by Joenathan	Dec 4th, 2008 11:42:55 PM
Is that the one where they fought Terrax?
Country Music by Continentalop	Dec 5th, 2008 12:04:43 AM
Sorry, but I may have grown up in a city but my bad and my summer job of bailing hay at a ranch taught me to appreciate real country music: Hank Williams, Marty Robins, Merl Haggard, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Kris Kristofferson, Loretta Lynn, and, of course, "No Show" George Jones. As my dad said about New Country, "If you haven't picked cotton, worked with horses or have a twang, don't pretend you do!"
New Warriors #1 by Continentalop	Dec 5th, 2008 12:05:32 AM
Yeah, that is the one. That really pissed me off.
Judd Winick Is Phil Collins by Buzz Maverik	Dec 5th, 2008 12:19:46 AM
I never play games like this. This is why you shouldn't go 96 hours without sleep.
Millar Is Tennesee Ernie Ford by Buzz Maverik	Dec 5th, 2008 12:21:25 AM
Remember when Millar played Lucy's cousin from Bent Fork, Scotland and he stayed with Ricky and Lucy for a number of episodes. And remember when Lucy snuck into the Tropicana?
When I was between 8 and 11... by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 02:28:10 AM
I had this old issue of Spider-Man where he teamed up with The Punisher, Moon Knight, Deathlok and Night Thrasher and my little kiddie self said "why the fuck does he have a skateboard?" Probably a good reason to start swearing.
so Secret Invasion #8 came out by the milf lover	Dec 5th, 2008 03:17:38 AM
what did everyone think? In a non-spoiler way, I'll just say that personally, I was very disappointed at how the whole thing just fizzled out lamely at the end there. Very underwhelming after how strongly the series started. The set up it did for the upcoming Dark Reign is kind of interesting, but I'm not sure I'm gonna want to invest in it.
Continentalop/New Warriors by steverodgers	Dec 5th, 2008 08:28:26 AM
Maybe you had to be a kid to enjoy the New Warriors. As much as I bag on them, and its an unending source for jokes, I fully admit I thought the New Warriors were pretty cool as a kid.
Ahhh so Batman 682 by optimous_douche	Dec 5th, 2008 08:28:42 AM
Is the Final Crisis Rosetta Stone. Still, it shouldn't be necessary. Read my OPinions are like Assholes piece from a few weeks ago: http://www.aintitcool.com/node /39129
Secret Invasion 8 by Bluejack	Dec 5th, 2008 08:47:42 AM
Incredibly rushed. C'mon Marvel, we spent the bucks on all this and crossovers. I would have paid another buck to have it paced out instead of a montage. I did like the reveal at the end. Not so sure I like all of the Avengers line-ups either.
Optimus & Chetedawg by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 09:01:30 AM
After I read Batman 682, I thought that Morrison's run on Batman might, in fact, be one of the best runs on Batman ever. Think about what he did there. Just the technical achievement. The fact that DC let him get away with this for more than two years––Optimus, you say it shouldn't be needed, but here's a story that was CLEARLY mapped out from a very early date, and in much more detail and complexity than Secret Invasion. This sucker required patience, and I should know-–look, I was literally JUST about to give up on this title. I really hated it. I hated the characterization, I hated Jezebel Jet, I hated everything about the RIP storyline––I'm talking HATE–– but 682 is probably one of the most touching, incredible reveals I've ever read in comics. It was like magic. It made me feel like a kid at the flea market, browsing through silver age stacks of comics. It was that good. As good as "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" Good. And It makes Batman such an ULTIMATE badass, if you think about it. I keep thinking about Morrison's run on JLA, specifically "Rock of Ages." I don't want to spoil anything, but I was so impressed with this title, with this single issue and retroactively with those that preceded it, more than I've been with any comic in a long, long time. The narrative style of Morrison's Batman all makes sense now, as does the bizarre tone of it, all the weird, obscure references...he basically took 70 years of continuity and made it all relevant. Abrafuckingcadabra. Hats off to DC on this one, and GO BATMAN!!!
Bluejack by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 09:04:19 AM
And Secret Invasion was totally rushed, and it was a mess. I liked that reveal, too––but come on, like World War Hulk, nothing was ever really at stake here. Bendis pulls another Deus Ex Machina on this one.
Yes, Buzz by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:23:47 AM
As I recall, Lucy had a lot of 'splaining to do.
Lood by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:24:40 AM
I remember that issue. Didn't they fight the Wrecking Crew?
SI #8 by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:41:28 AM
I haven't read it yet, but I read some spoilers and I am very interested in where it goes from here. I like that the lack of attention to the Supervillian-verse of late is coming back to bite them in the ass.
New Warriors by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:43:13 AM
Yes, now I can make New Warrior jokes all day long, but as a younger reader, I did love them, as I obviously returned to them every month. I mean, yes, Night Thrasher's Vietnamese Nanny did try to destroy the world with her Nanny superpowers, but at the time, that was a pretty awesome run.
BlueJack by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:44:20 AM
Bendis said the next issue of Mighty deals with all the fallout of SI.
Totally rushed? by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 09:58:15 AM
After eight months of you all complaining that it was mostly taking place on the same day? W-T-fucking-F?
Millar is the one-armed drummer from Def Leppard by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 10:09:06 AM

If by that, you mean fucking awesome... by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 10:13:19 AM
then I agree. HE HAD ONE ARM!
And he played like he had one arm... by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 10:20:49 AM

SI 8-no spoilers by Homer Sexual	Dec 5th, 2008 10:34:51 AM
Well, that ended pretty much as expected, in an adequate but hardly impressive way, with one unexpected, but unnecessary and IMHO, not good surprise. The whole series has been ok, somewhat entertaining but over-hyped. My LCS said it was a "love it or hate it" conclusion, but I didn't love or hate it. It was a'ight. On the other hand, the New/Mighty Avengers books have all been top notch throughout SI, and this week's New Avengers is no exception. BTW, I read comments about the new Avengers line-ups. I have no idea what they are. Where is this info found?
MattB and/or Cheetahdawg... by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 10:46:44 AM
I'm glad somebody got a kick out of the story, but what exactly is the big reveal you keep talking about? Putting 70 years of stories back into continuity isn't really that big, considering that they already happened and will mostly be dismissed anyway from here on. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Crisis on Infinite Earth or Infinite Crisis already write those out of continuity? Everyone here must've read it by now, so commence with the spoilering.
Avengers books... by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 5th, 2008 10:48:11 AM
Uhn, I agree that the stories themselves have been top notch, but I would like to see some Avengers books that are consistantly about, I don't know...AVENGERS! Not a Hallmark Special about one or two Avengers, or some weird tale about a single Avenger, or a story about a bunch of people tangentially connected to people that know people who stood near people who saw the Avengers this one time...
RIP epilogue - I finally know what RIP stands for by rock-me Amodeo	Dec 5th, 2008 10:50:12 AM
Random Interesting Poop. Because that's what this issue read like to me. I know, I know...I just don't get enough. Or something like that.
My bad, Joen... by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 10:58:13 AM
It was Nova, not Dethlok. http://spiderfan.org/comics/im ages/spiderman_amazing/355.jpg
chetedawg by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 11:19:55 AM
So are you saying that Dr. Hurt was an emissary of Darkseid?
Sorry, chetedawg-- you'd already answered my question by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 11:23:50 AM

Avenger line-ups by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 12:04:40 PM
Newsarama has some spoilers in the solicitations article.
Shit. by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 12:11:18 PM
You were referring to the issue I hadn't read yet as opposed to the one everyone else it talking about. Guess I should've checked the issue number first.
Yay! by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 12:14:26 PM
New new Avengers. Even wackier than before. Is there anyone in the Marvel U who hasn't been an Avenger now? Seriously, I think it's only Daredevil, Punisher and The Runaways left. It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
The ORIGINAL New Warriors by Psynapse	Dec 5th, 2008 12:17:11 PM
Ruled. The Nicieza/Bagley run was on of the most enjoyable I've ever read.
loodabagel & laserhead (SPOILERS) by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 12:21:05 PM
Dr. Hurt is either an agent of Darkseid, (DeSAAD) OR he is an agent of Bruce Wayne's subconscious, which he constructed to help him survive the torture he's undergoing at the hands of Darkseid's minions. Either way, it is an ingenious device, and loodabagel, what I find so incredible about the reveal is that ALL of what's been going on in Batman–– Damien, the league of Batman, the Black Hand––as well as ALL of the 70 years of continuity, including the wacky 50's and 60's, may be up for interpretation––is Bruce Wayne manufacturing entities such as "The Black Hand" to help him realize when he is being psychologically tortured? Is Zur-En-Ahh a "Backup Bruce" he made, is Jezebel Jet even real? Are the League of Batmen real? SPOILER ALERT 682 reveals that Alfred may have been, for decades, Darkseid's spy–-remember, prior to the 60s tv show, Alfred was a fat butler and he DIED, as 682 makes note of. I'm amazed at how much bat-lore is in here, including the "Robin Dies at Dawn" storyline, Batwoman, all of it––he's explained how it all can work together, because Batman has manufactured some of these memories to psychologically assist him in the event of the unthinkable. Morrison's run on JLA established Batman as sort of an Odysseus type character, a mortal who proves himself capable among gods. Batman was the ultimate tactician, which 682 alludes to, "I'm tired of clowns and puzzles...I was trained as a soldier..." It's so goddamned rich, it's insane. What I thought were vague and dreamy and disjointed stories all make sense in this context--Batman has been tortured, he is undergoing torture for the duration of Morrison's run, and, "The Black Casebook," all his unexplained cases, is some sort of clue he planted so he could solve the mystery of what's happening to him. At the same time, the league of Batmen, Jezebel Jet–– he's solving these mysteries with the aide of his "backup" personality––man it's just mindblowing. It's all taking place in his head, but for a purpose––it's not just, "It was all a dream," it's soooo much more complicated than that--- Batman is trying to explain to himself that Darkseid is torturing him--Simon Hurt is there to help Bruce Wayne peel away the possible suspects––he's not Wayne's father, he's not Mangrove, he's the devil––when you peel away all possibilities, then what's left? Darkseid. He's trying to solve the mystery AS he's being tortured by Gods. And when he figures it out, it might just lead back to the "Rock of Ages" Storyline, when Batman explained he'd been engaged in a "Battle of Wills" for DeSaad for 30-40 years, which he ultimately won. To me, this is one of THE most mind-blowing, incredibly layered comic book stories I've ever read. I was speechless when I read it. I had to go back and re-read Morrison's run, which I hadn't even put in boxes, because I thought it was so lousy–– but NOW it all is genius--go back and read it again!
Lood by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 01:10:05 PM
I think that is pretty much it. Remember when Busiak relaunched Avengers post-Heroes Reborn and had the try outs ad because Perez was drawing every hero that had ever been an Avenger showed up. I think Daredevil was the only one not there and the rest took the oppurtunity to make fun of his blindness. The Avengers are bastards, I'm glad they disassembled. The jerks...
Hmmmm Matt... by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 01:13:12 PM
Interesting... maybe I will pick up the trades.
MattB, I stopped reading about halfway through... by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 01:34:46 PM
Because that actually sounds like some interesting stuff. I'll have to check out this issue now. I figured it'd just be a boring origin retelling story. My vote has yet to be counted on this one, but that still looks like a better ending than "There is no DC universe, it was just an autistic kid looking at a snowglobe."
That sounds really potentially great by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 01:36:35 PM
And thus begins the reevaluation of R.I.P...
Still not sold on New Warriors by Continentalop	Dec 5th, 2008 01:39:21 PM
When I first saw them, I thought it was going to be awesome. It was obviously a rip off of the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, and I was happy with them ripping off that concept. I always thought there was a place for team of young, novice heroes in Marvel without some sort of elder mentor figure (no Prof. X, Cable or Emma Frost), just them learning the ropes. Unfortunately, New Warriors just seemed so damn stupid and cheesy in the worst way. I mean, even before I read the comic I was hating the name, "The New Warriors? Who the f$%# are the Old Warriors then? They should be the New Champions or New Defenders or something!" Plus I thought Night Thrasher on the cover was Rocket Racer with an awesome makeover. Instead it was another black guy who rides a skateboard - why are all the skateboard guys in Marvel black?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis t_of_Avengers_members by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 01:41:23 PM
I like to think they're missing a few. But that'd make for a great story. The Avengers could get infected by evil alien mold and start convincing everyone to join the Avengers and, oh wait. That's Marvel Zombies. Still, I think my version has way more potential.
"why are all the skateboard guys in Marvel black?" by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 01:42:32 PM

"why are all the skateboard guys in Marvel black?" by loodabagel	Dec 5th, 2008 01:43:06 PM
I think it has something to do with all the break-dancing DC guys being hispanic.
I stopped reading Matt's thing halfway... by Continentalop	Dec 5th, 2008 01:44:22 PM
...because it was making my head hurt. All the references to Odysseus and the meta-history as his subconscious and the fact that 30-40 years of his life have been him engaging a god in a metaphysical battle of wills. I guess I just like simple things. Like a guy dressing up as a bat so he can fight crime.
Thats the good thing about Batman though, by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 01:57:02 PM
Depending on the book you're reading, you can have either have him grappling with Gods or beating the crap out of muggers. I think thats why, even when I was almost totally buying Marvel, I'd still check out Batman. I think he is the best Superhero creation. He is both incrediblly easy and incrediblly deep as a character and can fit into just about any kind of tale.
Has Marvel Zombies 3 #2 come out? by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 01:58:53 PM
I'm kind of looking forward to that.
Homer, the post-Invasion Avengers lineups by the milf lover	Dec 5th, 2008 02:05:12 PM
are kind of revealed in the FREE 'Special Edition Dark Reign' Marvel Previews that came out yesterday, didnt your comic shop give you one? It's just a solicitation book for all the 'classified' comics Marvel didnt want to mention until SI8 came out, but it gives a good idea of what direction all those books are going in. I almost enjoyed reading that more than SI8.
Zombies by steverodgers	Dec 5th, 2008 02:06:19 PM
#2 and #3 are out. It's pretty awesome and I never read the first two zombie series.
2 and 3? by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 02:25:34 PM
Somebody at the LCS has a lot of 'splaining to do!
Mighty Avengers by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 02:27:23 PM
It sounds like all you Silver Age babies are going to get a break from all that evil, depressing darkness. Slott is sounding like he's going to play around old school starting in Mighty #21. Some classic avengers are on the team and he's going to be using a lot of classic Avenger villians. Rejoice!
Loodbagel's snow globe by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 03:35:32 PM
Seriously, I was done with this title, and I was so disappointed with Morrison's run all the way up to 681, especially because he'd done such incredible work in the past, notably with his JLA Batman interp. I especially thought RIP was just another gimmicky death turd from DC, who, let's face it, as a company is not averse to gimmicky death turds. I was like, "What is this crap? None of it makes any sense. They're not even trying to make Damian like a real person. He's so poorly written. What are all these "bat ninjas?" And why are all these allusions just thrown in there? Just to show Morrison's smart ? Am I supposed to actually CARE about Jezebel Jet? I met her three issues ago and it was SOOOO telegraphed." But after 682, you realize that you NEVER WERE supposed to care about her, and all the allusions are there for SPECIFIC purposes, and the fate of Jezebel Jet was never really the issue–– AND the snowglobe thing is right on, because it's one thing if it's all just "And then I woke up, it was all a dream!" But it's not. What a spin on a cliche! I honestly thought it sucked. Now I think it's incredible. I can't say enough good things about it. Sorry for gushing, but I wanted to geek out last night, and I told my wife, and she was like, "That's nice, dear." I realized I had nobody around who would appreciate the incredible nerdgasm that is Batman 682 so much as the AICN talkbackers.
Continental Op by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 03:47:04 PM
Yeah, the ONLY thing I'd say about this story is, and this is NOT a slam on anyone, but I feel like one of the only reasons I think it's so brilliant is because I HAVE read that silver age stuff, and I've just recently read "Rock of Ages," again, and I'm a huge batman fan. I think maybe you gotta have all that past stuff "at the ready" for this one, which is why I'm so shocked that DC let him get away with this--for YEARS!! But it's almost like the Finnegans Wake of Batman stories. Everything means something else!
mattb127 by steverodgers	Dec 5th, 2008 03:51:53 PM
Your getting me excited for RIP!
Rock of Ages was great. by Joenathan	Dec 5th, 2008 04:10:45 PM
Green Arrow and Atom... awesome...
One last thing (and then I'll shut up!) by mattb127	Dec 5th, 2008 04:27:49 PM
The other reason why it's cool, just like ContinentalOp pointed out, is b/c Batman's always been one of those characters who doesn't really belong with the rest of DC's stable. And it's obvious, even to those who love the character. I mean, how does Batman really make a difference in a world inhabited by people like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern? They're GODS. But here Morrison has explained WHY Batman belongs--he's frickin' smarter than all of them, and sometimes, it's cool to see a writer demonstrate Batman's smarts in action, instead of his batarangs and ju-jitsu moves. He can't beat Darkseid up, that's ridiculous––but he could outwit him, as he does in Rock of Ages. "Look up! I'm taking it all!" AWESOME!! He thinks on a zero-sum scale––whatever he has to do to win––if he has to get tortured for 40 years, well, that's unfortunate, but hey, that's the cost of doin' business!
mattb by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 06:37:37 PM
I just read 682, and I hope the possibilities you discuss are like what eventually plays out, but I'm not convinced that's exactly what's going on. How much of Morrison's run actually took place? How long since Batman got taken prisoner in FC #2... I'll have to see the conclusion. But yeah, it's possible that Morrison could save the run yet. (I mean, his run had enough cool moments to make it somewhat good already...)
Green Arrow and Atom by Laserhead	Dec 5th, 2008 07:53:03 PM
killing Darkseid-- one of the all-time best super-hero scenes.
Marvel Skaters by Buzz Maverik	Dec 7th, 2008 01:16:36 AM
"You guys wanna try draining the pool at the Hellfire Club again?" "No! I still have a rash from that inhibitor collar they slapped on me." "I'd rather have a rash from the Black Queen." "You know, I hear Doom's putting in a pipeline in Lateveria." "I'd be up for that. Those Doombots are lousy shots anyway."
Buzz Maverik Here From The Set... by Buzz Maverik	Dec 7th, 2008 01:25:51 AM
...of my latest film I LOVE LUCY: THE MOTION PICTURE. We've reteamed Nicole kidman as Lucy and Hugh Jackman as Ricky (the only problem is that Hugh went Method with Wolverine and had the claws grafted to him which means that he slashes up that conga drum when he plays the Babaloo). We've got Jennifer Coolidge as Ethel Mertz and Michael Chicklis as Fred Mertz. I, of course, got a million bucks for mushing together all the "sneaking into the Tropicana" scripts and adding exterior shots, as well as my customary Purdy shotgun and H2 packed with Cuban cigars. Once again, my nephew Riff Maverik is doing the score, Sleazy G. is music supervisor, Ambush Bug is doing on set rewrites, my friend Eriglione's Mom is in charge of craft services because she makes the best canoli west of Chicago; I get cast approval and final cut, of course. Mostly, I'm in it for the free shotgun...
mattb127... by alfiemoon	Dec 8th, 2008 05:18:02 AM
Great posts. Nice to see someone getting so unashamedly enthusiastic about a storyline like this. I hope that your interpretation of #682 is accurate, and that Morrison's run will hang together a lot more cohesively as a result of this issue and #683.
Batman 682 by Homer Sexual	Dec 8th, 2008 11:36:05 AM
Well, I finally read it this weekend, and it was good, but I didn't fully get it. I only kind of understood it and don't quite get MattB's love. But I will wait to see the final conclusion, and it is a'ight in any case.

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