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First!
by Psynapse
Nov 19th, 2008
08:13:42 AM
Damn, it's been a while since I pulled that.
Golgo 13
by CharyouTree
Nov 19th, 2008
08:16:07 AM
great anime would make a good live action I think
Garfield
by Clumzor
Nov 19th, 2008
08:16:53 AM
I thought those strips with Garfield erased were funny an all but it really amazes me that they're selling a book of them now.
Psynapse now go try pull a chick
by CharyouTree
Nov 19th, 2008
08:21:51 AM
damn you and your first!
Green Lantern
by Pogue__Mahone
Nov 19th, 2008
08:22:18 AM
It's Amazing.... that's all there is to it.
Kevin Smith
by hallmitchell
Nov 19th, 2008
08:29:16 AM
Great to see him back. I will be buying the second issue.
Gay Joker
by rev_skarekroe
Nov 19th, 2008
09:01:10 AM
It's been implied before, in The Dark Knight Returns ("Batman, darling") and Morrisson's Arkham's Asylum (ass-grabbing). Personally, I think that the character is essentially asexual, simply acting in ways that he thinks will be most disturbing to whomever happens to be hanging around him at any given time.
Thanks Rev
by optimous_douche
Nov 19th, 2008
09:05:03 AM
I forgot about those two landmark moments in gay joker history. Truly tame though compared to these blatant bitch slaps of Dorothyism.

I’m with you on your theory though. I just wanted another excuse to bastardize the title Countdown.

"Malevolent protectors"?
by Gislef_crow
Nov 19th, 2008
09:15:50 AM
"In my opinion, the Guardians of the Galaxy have always been more concerned about controlling the universe than serving as malevolent protectors." I think you mean "benevolent protectors."
You Got Me Gislef
by optimous_douche
Nov 19th, 2008
09:17:57 AM
Remember kids never type up a review while huffing air freshner.
Hey Buzz
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
09:20:58 AM
I responded to you on the last TB, nothing big... just sayin'.
And that cover of Wolverine takes me back...
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
09:21:52 AM
Ah... the end of the X-men in the outback era... good times... Remember the Reaver assault on Muir Island? I loved that shit.
FUckin comic books...
by loodabagel
Nov 19th, 2008
09:25:42 AM
Why can't something I read ever come out?
...
by blackthought
Nov 19th, 2008
09:30:12 AM
...
re: Kevin Smith
by spidercoz
Nov 19th, 2008
09:46:40 AM
you say that like there's going to BE a second issue
Does the Kevin Smith story
by Laserhead
Nov 19th, 2008
09:51:45 AM
involve a man having to accept that a woman is a whore in order to "grow"? I gotta say, I don't think Smith can write for shit. He's a one-trick pony of "ironic" one-liners and Catholic sexual hang-ups.
Optimus Douche...
by tiredpm
Nov 19th, 2008
09:57:06 AM
The only other times I can think of Joker even playing with sexuality would be in Arkham Asylum (where he grabs Batman's ass and completely freaks old pointy ears out) or the page in Death in The Family where he's confronted by Batman before he goes to the UN. Even then, the latter example is more playing camp to get under batman's skin.
Man, I gotta read the previous posts...
by tiredpm
Nov 19th, 2008
09:59:00 AM
Full kudos to rev_skarekroe for jumping in there first. And I'd also forgotten about the line in TDKR.
Does Batman fart while getting a blow job?
by Baron Karza
Nov 19th, 2008
10:00:32 AM
Seems like Kevin would work that in there.
I love...
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
10:02:13 AM
Garfield without Garfield, it is pure genius. I also love the Walking Dead, (you still aren't allowed in my bunker, Psynapse... or my heart...) it allows me to forgive Kirkman for his grandious and naive announcement awhile back. I can aready tell that I am going to hate the hell out of that Scientist guy though.
I once accepted a woman as a whore and grew...
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
10:04:00 AM
IN MY PANTS!
Is the gay Joker even edgy anymore?
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
10:09:35 AM
I'm happy you guys love Kevin Smith so much...
by Ghostwood
Nov 19th, 2008
10:50:00 AM
...but what the hell was the comic book about? You know, a quick run-down of the plot and what the stakes are for the caped guy. You mention Onomatopoeia, Deadshot and an ass-fixated Joker, but not in any kind of context. How about a review of the book instead of a laundry list everyone knows/loves/hates/is-apathetic to already about a Kevin Smith book?
G-G = A+
by onusbone
Nov 19th, 2008
10:51:40 AM
I haven't Lol'd from the comics in a long while, but this does it every time.
Did Smith start writing this ten years ago?
by mrfan
Nov 19th, 2008
10:58:56 AM
GARFIELD MINUS GARFIELD
by Series7
Nov 19th, 2008
11:19:28 AM
Is sooo fucking great!
Huge Batman news and no mention of it?
by Mr.FTW
Nov 19th, 2008
11:44:20 AM
Just out of curriosity why no mention of any of the huge Batman news that has been circulating? DC has announce the cancelation of Nightwing, Robin and Birds of Prey. The final issues will come out after the first of the year. And why no mention of the huge story leak for Batman R.I.P. Morrison's finale has been leaked a couple of weeks early and that is a pretty major deal along with some of the up coming story lines for the Batman titles. A lot of major news has come out about one of the most important characters in comics, why no coverage?
Batman News
by optimous_douche
Nov 19th, 2008
12:12:05 PM
I knoow why I wouldn't mention it. Because he'll be back.

If they could bring back Superman from the dead they can sure as shit tear Bruce away from his golf clubs and afternoon dinner at Dennys. Is Doomsday his retirement financial planning advisor?

As for the other titles being cancelled - I'm kind of glad. The title line has been getting way too bloated over the past few years. If our troubling economy means less books, but more quality - HUZZAH!!!!

Whats the news?
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
12:19:38 PM
I don't feel like looking.
They probably didn't cover the Batman news...
by rev_skarekroe
Nov 19th, 2008
12:27:21 PM
...because this isn't a news column. It's for reviews.
Whats the review of the news?
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
12:44:55 PM
I don't feel like looking it up.
"less books, but more quality"
by Dollar Bird
Nov 19th, 2008
12:45:49 PM
I wish that was true.
Get Ready Joen
by optimous_douche
Nov 19th, 2008
12:45:51 PM
Batman

Retires. Hence my Dennys comment in the earlier post.

never heard of Garfield minus garfield before
by ian216a
Nov 19th, 2008
12:55:16 PM
Shit - did I laugh! Yes I did.
Cacophony
by jcrash
Nov 19th, 2008
01:10:42 PM
You guys seriously like that garbage? I'm actually a fan of some of Kevin Smith's movies and I thought it was shite. Completely off the mark. Does ever character that he writes need to be talk like Randal or Jay? C'mon. I couldn't even read the whole issue. Joker ready to take it in the ass? Juvenile in all the wrong ways. Kevin Smith grow up already.
Is the Joker gay? Only Harley Quinn knows for sure...
by MrSensitive
Nov 19th, 2008
01:10:45 PM
...wasn't she his therapist or something at Arkham once? You'd think his sexual orientation would have been in his file, no?
Reviews vs New
by Mr.FTW
Nov 19th, 2008
01:52:19 PM
This may be a review column but that has never stopped any editorial commentary on comics at large in this column. The shake up and cancelation within the Bat family titles deserves some mention, it hasn't shown up in the Shoot the Messenger column either unless I completely missed it. I just figured there would be some commentary on these events while having to deal with the Final Crisis aftermath at the same time. Will Bruce/Bats be back, of course. I'd say in less than a year but if you think DC won't turn that into another cross over event that people aren't in favor of right not you're crazy. I've read complaints in this column about that very thing concerning the R.I.P. storyline itself. I'm just surprised that no one is calling DC out on it. As far as the cancelations go I'd be all for it if it meant the price of comics would drop because the company had less expenses in publishing or that quality across the board would raise because there were fewer thing to focus but I'm afraid what we'll get are great characters side lined without books.
One thing I just realised
by hallmitchell
Nov 19th, 2008
02:17:55 PM
I went through my trade paperback of Quiver - the kevin smith run because I couldn't remember that villain onomatopea or however you spell it. It's in the second paperback run of Green Arrow. Which i didn't know existed. I will be buying that now.
I took the Denny's comment to mean...
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
02:30:39 PM
he was going Goth and taking up smoking clove cigarettes.
I bet DC doesn't have the balls to drag out
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
02:33:25 PM
Batman's retirement the way Marvel has kept Cap dead...
Kevin Smith's Batman is terrible.
by themanwhojaped
Nov 19th, 2008
04:21:54 PM
You have got to be kidding me. The amount of love this utter tripe has been receiving is absurd. Despite the protestations of the reviewers both here and elsewhere it is patently obvious that they are just Kevin Smith fanboys. If Bret Ratner's name was on the front of Cacophony instead of Smith's I can guarantee you it would be critically derided as it so deserves. Where to begin? The characterisation is way off, the humour is puerile and don't even get me started on Flanagan's "art" - there is no way Walt the Fanboy would ever get a comic drawing gig if it wasn't for Kevin Smith. I am a Kevin Smith fan but I don't think having a lot of knowledge about the character automatically makes one a good comic writer. Yes, his Green Arrow run was good, but he does not have a good handle on Batman. You only have to read the Batman cameo in his Superman Lives script to see that. In short, Kevin Smith's name does not belong in the same sentence as Grant Morrison, Denny O'Neal, Alan Moore, Frank Miller or any of the other Batman greats. He clearly only got this gig because he is the darling of the fanboy set. Oh, and for all the haters, I have no problem with the Joker making gay jokes etc. Given his personality he is just as likely to do that as anything else, I wouldn't read too much into it.
Dennys
by optimous_douche
Nov 19th, 2008
04:22:44 PM
I guess it all depends on where you live. In PA at 3:00 in the afternoon it's all of the people that are naturally blue hair at Midnight it's the people that dye their hair blue.
Blue hair
by DennisMM
Nov 19th, 2008
04:48:08 PM
Those 3 p.m. people with blue hair dye it, too. It's called "bluing" and was originally marketed as a laundry rinse. By adding blue tones to white hair it helps cancel out the yellowness often seen in white hair. Too much makes the hair look blue.

Also, it's Guardians of the Universe. The Guardians of the Galaxy are over at Marvel and include a raccoon. You really were huffing, weren't you?

cacophony issue one
by NotMalcolmReed
Nov 19th, 2008
04:53:55 PM
yawn. issue two: batman and joker make a porno.
Blue hair is for old people...
by loodabagel
Nov 19th, 2008
04:56:42 PM
And elves.
Batman retires?
by the milf lover
Nov 19th, 2008
05:41:41 PM
didnt Shuemacher do that already in Batman Forever 15 years ago?
Like peanut butter and jelly or strippers and cigarette burns, t
by PR1C3Y
Nov 19th, 2008
06:17:09 PM
I just pissed myself.
Onomatopoeia Wasn't Shelved
by slfricky
Nov 19th, 2008
06:40:27 PM
Apparently Smith owns the character, and DC would have to pay Smith for any use of him independantly of his stories.
Smith doesnt own Onomatopoeia
by the milf lover
Nov 19th, 2008
06:52:17 PM
from what I read, DC just agreed to not let other writers use the character without first going through Smith for approval. Kinda like the deal Frank Miller used to have with Marvel about Elektra, meaning DC will keep their word as long as it's convenient for them, then eventually say 'screw Smith' if they want to do something with it
Garfield Minus Garfield
by MCVamp
Nov 19th, 2008
08:14:36 PM
It's really the best absurdist comic since THE FAR SIDE. And it happens by accident. Genius.
I'm starting to wonder about Cap....
by gooseud
Nov 19th, 2008
08:26:49 PM
Ya think they might keep him dead? I know, I know, but......ya think?
Sir Apropos books parody lots of things...
by MisterE
Nov 19th, 2008
09:49:37 PM
One book starts off with Apropos finding a dead hobbit with a magical cock ring.
Garfield Minus Garfield
by Continentalop
Nov 19th, 2008
10:11:03 PM
Reminds me of the Nietzsche Family Circus, where they take the Family Circus and replace the dialogue with a random Nietzsche quote.
Joker is NOT gay
by Crimson Dynamo
Nov 19th, 2008
11:19:27 PM
I have it on good word that he likes to have Max Hardcore-type sex with Harley
Garfield - Garfield is by Jim Davis
by MurderMostFowl
Nov 19th, 2008
11:33:28 PM
The printed version is actually by Jim Davis. The Website creator ( Dan Walsh ) writes the foreword for the book, and got paid a tidy sum for his work. ( Which is awesome of Jim Davis, when you think about it... he could have just sued the guy into oblivion )
Blue hair is for old people?
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
01:38:36 AM
What about Blue Monday?

Chynna Clugston is dreamy...
Cap dead and gone?
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
01:46:25 AM
If it wasn't for the coming movies, at this point, I'd be tempted to say... maybe.

A. Because Bucky/Cap is awesome, just hands down great stuff.

B. I honestly have NO idea how they'd do it. I thought for sure that Secret Invasion was key, but apparently not and if Dark Reign is about what I think its about (Mephisto is a... nevermind) then that doesn't really seem like a Cap-centric type stage, so... I am intrigued.

Will Cap be back. Yes and the when is pretty obvious, but how? Do you think his super soldier serum is slowly knitting him back together? In the Ultimate Universe, they link Cap's serum to Wolverine, maybe they'll try to spin it that way. AND if they do, does that mean that Cap is alive and trapped down at the bottom of the ocean right now? What will he be like when they pull him up?
Spot-on Top 10 review
by Lone Fox
Nov 20th, 2008
08:45:36 AM
I picked up issue 2 first, and dreaded what the characters would sound like sans Moore, but damn they really nailed it. Picked up issue 1 yesterday, and likewise, a decent start, but it really gets it in the 2nd issue. Oh, and that Garfield book without Garfield is the funniest thing I've read in a long time!
Ambiguously gay Joker is not without precedent
by Burgundy82
Nov 20th, 2008
09:10:31 AM
Miller had him acting pretty fey in The Dark Knight Returns, no? Sure his orientation wasn't flat-out mentioned, but still. Pretty sure he called people "darling" and shit like that. The sort of stereotypical stuff you'd expect from Frank Miller's perception of homosexuality.
Smith's Batman
by Slaphappy Slim
Nov 20th, 2008
01:17:24 PM
Wasn't awful as some insist, also wasn't terrific. While I tend to like most of Kevin Smith's work, I AM in agreement that he needs to move away from the bathroom humor at some point. It's become too much of a crutch for him at this point, and reeks of laziness on his part.
Captain America
by Bluejack
Nov 20th, 2008
01:46:49 PM
If "Thor" is in continuitiy at all, then Steve Rogers is dead. Other options are there for bringing him back. Cap has been my fav since I was a kid and I still love what Bru is doing with Bucky. By far the best Cap writing in the character's history. I would be interested to see if anyone can come up with a better quality Cap run?
BlueJack
by steverodgers
Nov 20th, 2008
02:22:27 PM
I think overall quality and depth of storytelling no one is going to come up with anything that is that much better than the current run. However there are some good stories out there. Waid/Garney first run was great until it was killed by the wild abortion that was Heroes Reborn. Grunewald’s Bloodstone Hunt was Cap as Indiana Jones with Batroc thrown in, and was top notch globe-trotting super heroics. Also the Kirby stuff was great, the Kirbytasticness that was the Mad Bomb and Cap cruising on his star spangled motor-cycle getting in touch with SF hippies. The Steranko stuff that I think Bru is borrowing from was graphic designed sweetness, and call me crazy but I have quite a soft spot for Cap-Wolf and when Cap and D-Man took on juiced up wrestlers during Grunewald’s run as well. I also have to say, my favorite Cap was the one Miller came up with during the Daredevil Born Again issues - noble and bigger than life. All that said I can’t get enough of BuckyCap and his metal arm.
Joen/Nextwave
by steverodgers
Nov 20th, 2008
02:25:44 PM
Amazon delivered the trades to my island today, and I love it. I'm 6 pages in and already Fing Fang Foom is tossing around cars in his wicked stretchy purple pants. Awesome.
Oh, just you wait...
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
02:35:34 PM
Just you wait until the Koalas...

and the Captain's secret origin.
Cap run
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
02:39:07 PM
I really liked the John Walker/crazy Cap, Steve Rogers/Captain run. When Cap took on the Serpant Society and John Walker was killing guys left and right? Good stuff. Also, the whole Captain America and the Falcon stuff is great. Especially the first time the 1950s Captain America showed up. My Uncle had a whole stack of them and I read the hell out of those books.

Bucky/Cap, though, is one hell of a compelling character. So much so that I really am torn over Steve Rogers eventual return.
Fing Fang Foom
by steverodgers
Nov 20th, 2008
02:39:28 PM
My mistake, he is wearing purple underpants, purple pants would just be stupid and clownish.
I forgot to mention...
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
02:42:02 PM
My favorite little touch to this last Captain America run of Bru's was that the 1950s Cap's uniform STILL didn't have red and white stripes along the back, which was how they originally were able to tell it wasn't the real Cap way back when beause Jack Munroe had sewed his costume for him and didn't have a picture showing the back. Good on Bru for including it.
Also
by Joenathan
Nov 20th, 2008
02:42:53 PM
Hell as Machine Man imagines it, is fantastic.
What? No mention of Superman
by Snookeroo
Nov 20th, 2008
03:19:15 PM
being taken out of Action comics starting in February?
What's THAT all about? Has DC simply decided that they don't need their tent pole properties anymore?
Cap run
by Continentalop
Nov 20th, 2008
03:49:42 PM
Kirby’s second run was awesome. Parts of the Englehart’s run were fantastic, although his legacy is tainted by the fact he made Sam Wilson into pimp "Snap" Wilson. Personally, my favorite run was the unfortunately short Stern/Byrne run, and I do have a soft spot J.M DeMatteis and Mike Zeck’s run (Zeck draws one tough looking Cap).
Best Cap
by gooseud
Nov 20th, 2008
05:42:24 PM
I'm not sure how you could pick against the current run. The real question is: Black Widow or Sharon Carter? Thats the real dilemma facing all Cap readers. Well, that and this: if you COULD have Cap back, knowing it would mean Bucky would be forced from the comic altogether to the realm of guest star limbo, would you take it? Mephisto is offering a redo......
speaking of Cap and Nextwave
by the milf lover
Nov 20th, 2008
05:47:22 PM
Cap had a great flashback cameo in an issue of Nextwave, and his quote to Monica is priceless. If Cap had that great authoritative attitude all the time, Marvel wouldnt have needed to kill him off to make his series better.
if they do bring Cap back
by the milf lover
Nov 20th, 2008
05:49:10 PM
Bucky wont be going into guest star limbo, he'll likely get his own Winter Soldier/mercenary series. They built him up too much to just waste him.
I know you'll all attack me for this
by Continentalop
Nov 20th, 2008
06:52:43 PM
I am probably the only guy who is going to say this, but I think bringing Bucky Barnes back from the dead was a mistake. I am not taking away from Brubaker and his run, which has been fantastic, or how they have brought Bucky back as the Winter Soldier, which I thought was a very interesting angle. I just feel that this will turn into one of those decisions that in hindsight weren’t so good.

My reason is that Bucky died in war. And not a fake comic book war (War of the Gods, Kree-Skrull War, etc.) but a real, honest to God war where millions of other people died. Real soldiers who died in war don’t come back. That is what made Bucky so great; he was a symbol of all those young men lost way before their prime die in war. It made sense why after he was unfrozen Cap would have such a dislike for war, and even for killing in general.

I was in the army, but luckily I never saw any combat or had to even fear being sent into conflict, unlike today. Still, you wonder how one would react if one of your close buddies died, especially after seeing a bunch of shit together and backing each other up. When I was a kid, I accompanied my dad when he met some of his Korean War buddies and they would shoot the shit. Sooner or later, someone would mention a funny story regarding some guy in their squad or platoon, than it would dawn on everyone there that he had died not long after that story, and this would be followed by an uncomfortable silence until someone finally changed the subject.

I guess it is a generation gap and a kind of disconnect we all have with war. Very few of us are serving or know someone who is serving and lost a love one. Hell, I was in the army and I don’t know a damn thing about lost and sacrifice. But to see Bucky go from a tragic dead war hero into just another comic book character that has returned from the dead just doesn’t feel right to me.

But that is just my opinion.

Nextwave Cap
by steverodgers
Nov 20th, 2008
07:28:50 PM
That was hilarious. I can't believe they canceled this comic. There should have been riots in the streets.
Fin Fang Foom
by steverodgers
Nov 20th, 2008
07:30:03 PM
Thanks J.J. - totally embarrassing.
gay jokes
by hardcpy
Nov 21st, 2008
12:03:45 AM
Ok is it me or dose Kevin smith only have one joke in him, "everyone's gay" yep jokers gay, your gay so on and so on is this what makes a "good" writers now days, recycled gay jokes. Welcome back Kevin? I don't think so!! go back to your video store and let the grown ups write the comics.
I wanted to riot for Nextwave
by the milf lover
Nov 21st, 2008
12:13:08 AM
but it wouldnt have worked, since I would likely have looked like one crazy guy alone bashing mailboxes and stuff...
smith's Cacaphony should be retitled:
by orange cinema
Nov 21st, 2008
07:38:57 AM
Did they cancel Nextwave?
by Joenathan
Nov 21st, 2008
08:21:14 AM
Or did it just finish? I was always under the impression that Ellis did what he wanted and then closed up shop. I don't think it was canceled, but maybe I'm wrong. It certainly read complete.

I can see your point about Bucky, EXCEPT for the fact that he was ALWAYS a comic book character and there for, I just can't get that choked up about his "sacrifice". From the start, I was against Bucky coming back, because of Marvel's old golden rule: "No one is dead except Bucky." But then... it worked, it worked really well and honestly, (and I really hate to say this) its almost working EVEN better with Bucky/Cap and Steve Rogers as a Barry Allen-esqe icon. I just can't complain about bringing Bucky back or any possible ramifications because hands down, the comic is better than it has been in years, way better and this from a kid that got in trouble for flattening out the garbage can's lid when he needed a shield.

As for Kevin Smith, ever since GLADD bitch slapped him over Chasing Amy he has been Mr. uber-sensitive guy about "gay-ness" to the point where he does label everything as a gay. Its just the straight guy's version of whitey-guilt, but yeah, it gets a bit tedious sometimes.
Orange Cinema
by Joenathan
Nov 21st, 2008
08:22:59 AM
The fact that you've kept us waiting almost an hour for your joke's punchline in no way diminishes my excitement, nay sir, it only serves to heighten my anticipation.
Nextwave ended
by Psynapse
Nov 21st, 2008
12:42:15 PM
We'll get more when Ellis AND Immonen can get to it according to Ellis.
Joenathan
by Continentalop
Nov 21st, 2008
04:43:09 PM
No, I understand he is just a comic book character, but still sometimes things are symbols of even bigger ideas. I mean, that is why so many Captain America fans are upset at Millar depiction of Captain America in the Ultimates; he took a character that represents the best in America and our soldiers and turned him into a stereotypical jingoistic jarhead. I mean does every character that is an ex-vet in the Marvel Universe have to be an asshole or a basket case?

Although I will concede that Bucky’s resurrection for the most part works. I think one of the reasons is that enough years has passed between WWII and now. When Cap was unfrozen, on about 19 years had passed since the end of the War, so it was easy to understand how Cap could be depressed over Bucky’s early death; he would have only been about 37 years old and had a wife, family, living the American Dream he fought for. Nowadays, he would be nearing 80 and his life would be coming to a close no matter what, if he were even still alive.

I also remember when Marvel used to say that the ones who would never come back were Bucky, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, The Green Goblin, and Jean Grey. Seems every year that list is getting less and less. The fact is that certain characters were much more poignant and important in death than in life, and any attempt at resurrecting them seems to diminish them. I can’t help but still wish that the Green Goblin and Jean Grey had never been brought back. I just hope Marvel doesn’t make me want to add Bucky to that list.

You're not alone, Continentalop.
by SleazyG.
Nov 21st, 2008
06:24:11 PM
While I agree Brubaker's writing a pretty solid story, the truth is I never liked the idea of bringing Bucky back. His death was too important to Cap's story, and his loss was something young soldiers who served could relate to, and dammit, death is death and when people die fighting the Nazis they're dead. No matter how good the story is, there's still a part of me that says he died like a hero and it should stay that way. I don't mind the "Bucky was an asskicker" retrofitting in flashback form, but there's part of me that still wishes he was never brought back.
Ultimate Cap
by Joenathan
Nov 24th, 2008
09:08:03 AM
I disagree with your characterization. Ultimate Cap reminded me of John Wayne, of my grandfather and his WWII buddies. Things were different then, there was a feeling of right and righteousness. There was an honest belief in their government and that what they were doing is right. They went to Europe to kick some Nazi ass because it was the right thing to do. What you call "jingoism" is actual, honest patriotism. This is why Banner got a boot in the jaw, because to Cap's mind, the little punk needed an ass whoopin' as people sometimes do. He's not an asshole. He's from a different culture, a different generation. He's a man out of time, a Super SOLDIER, who until just recently (to his mind) he was engaged in the biggest war the world had ever seen. Hell, he probably still eats Freedom cabbage and refers to Germans as Krauts. This is, to my mind, the correct portrayal of Cap. God knows, I love the Superhero Cap of the regular Marvel Universe, but the way Cap SHOULD be, given his background and origin, is the way he's portrayed in the Ultimates.

As far as characters coming back or wacky, radical story lines and twists, my rule is: If it works, it works. Crying over Bucky coming back, at this point, is the ultimate example of the aging comic fan whining like some old fart midwest McCain supporter. dang-nabbit, gosh dang socialists! Times changes, books change, characters must change. Stagnation is death. Those one off issues are crap, the comics world needs radical shake ups or they will die.

And honestly, did Bucky really "die" like a hero? Or did he die because he was stupid and refused to follow Steve's orders and then got his dumb ass stuck to the plane and blown up?
Joethathan
by Continentalop
Nov 24th, 2008
02:46:31 PM
I actually never said he died like a hero, I said he died tragically like so many other young men in war. In fact, that is why I always "like" his death, because it was so pointless. He could have survived, but instead he choice to hang onto a plan that had already been disabled and died for naught. Like many people did even in a noble war (something Stan Lee and especially Kirby were well aware of).

As for Ultimate Captain America, I am not going to say you are wrong because obviously your experiences with military men and veterans of WWII are different than mine. But my ultimate point (no pun intended) was why is that every ex-vet or currently enlisted soldier in the Marvel Universe treated as a complete reject, nutcase, asshole or villain? Or who was not betrayed by their government or crippled/mentally damaged by their war experiences?

And than there is the fact that all commanding officers are treated as completely fascist, power mad individuals (think Ryker in the Hulk comics some years ago, or any general in Supreme Powers). Even supposedly “good” guys like Nick Fury are treated as manipulative or willing to abuse power. I mean, think of the last time you saw a comic where a general in one of the branches of the armed forces was treated as being a good guy and not as power-mad or nationalistic asshole.

I am not some jingoistic, rightwing nut who loves war - I was against the invasion of Iraq from the get go - but I was in the army and I know that a lot of soldier, including many of the commanding officers, who are moral people who feel that obeying the rules of law and the moral code of the uniform in more important that obeying their commanding officers. Sure there are assholes in the military, just like in the rest of the world, but does everybody from the armed forces have to be depicted as a jerk or that being a soldier was the worst decision they have ever made? I find Marvel not to be anti-war but anti-soldier, as if they can’t imagine that any good, normal, conscientious person would ever put on a uniform.

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