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Well this is a first
by Orcus
Nov 17th, 2008
08:47:51 AM
Orcus not last
Congrats, Orcus
by Drunken Rage
Nov 17th, 2008
08:56:29 AM
While I disagree with the general whining...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
09:05:48 AM
because I strictly hold that DC/Marvel owes us NOTHING, I do agree with one point. IF we're going to do these events,

A. they should be double issues.

B. We should get more pages than than price increased.

And C. The issues should be treated as chapters, there should be a definate point to each one, something specifically needs to happen EACH issue.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the trade pacing, as long as its tight and flows, you know? Bad writing is bad writing, but if its good, then I do think monthly buyers can take a flying fuck, because if you AREN'T voting with your wallet, then fuck you. Simple as that. DON'T BUY THE BOOK, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT! Simple as that. If you really want them to change what Marvel and DC are doing, then don't buy the stuff you don't like, simple as that. There is no excuse that any of you will come up with that excuse this.(especially if its along the lines of: I'm a long term fan... fucking asshole...) If you don't like it, stop buying it. If enough people stop buying it, the company will take notice and they will change editorial direction. Thats how this works. There is no other way.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. Otherwise, shut up.
Well done, Douche
by Laserhead
Nov 17th, 2008
09:48:37 AM
Measured, intelligent criticism isn't whining (or 'hating'). It's called 'values,' and don't let some ADHD Gen-Yer tell you different.
uh...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
10:17:55 AM
I'm a Gen-Xer... God! Get it right...

Also, eat some poop, laserhead.
You're a Gen-Xer?
by Laserhead
Nov 17th, 2008
10:39:58 AM
Then you're way, way too old to still be living with your mother.
Remember when comic book covers
by Snookeroo
Nov 17th, 2008
10:52:00 AM
said something about the story? Had a little intrigue? Is it too much to ask for a cover that doesn't feature assorted characters standing around posing while some sort of energy burst occurs in the background? I mean, that's ok -- occasionally -- but when every friggin' cover looks exactly the same, it gets old.

Carmine Infantino, please come home.
James McAvoy for Bilbo!!!!
by TheWaqman
Nov 17th, 2008
11:43:41 AM
Joenat...
by Ambush Bug
Nov 17th, 2008
11:58:48 AM
Y'know, it's been a while since I've had to say anything to you and to be honest, you really have shaped up to be someone who shows that he is ABLE to contribute to the Talkback without making it a place where people don't want to be. But that doesn't mean you don't do it from time to time. And this is one of those times (it happened late in the TBs last time too when you laughably pointed out that you won and argument--how did you win? did your mom come in and read it and say you did? what did you win? I'm curious. How do you possibly win a talkback discussion?).
But your attitude about just about everything pretty much stinks. I'm not talking about your opinions. You're completely right to have them. I'm talking about the fact that you think that there are no other opinions except yours and all others are housed in the brains of idiots. The pompous way you spout the gospel according to you is no longer annoying, it's just kind of sad how closed minded you are in regards to others opinions and at the drop of a hat, will turn on someone who takes a stab at that thin protective bubble you have around your opinions.
It's one thing to be confident. It's another to go on and on about the same shit telling everyone they are wrong because they don't agree with you. Sure this makes for a long Talkback because you end up pissing off people to the point of a back and forthing (newcomers are often guilty of this), but those of us who have been around long before you are just waiting for the day you finally catch me or any other admin on this site where we simply are tired of your trifling "King o' the mountain" attitude. I'll have a short tb over one dominated by a douche (not OD) any old day. Your attempt to peg people as a troll late in the TB was hilarious when you've been trolling things up and shouting I'm right with your fingers in your ears since your initial login.
I said this a while back and I'm to the point of enforcing it. The Talkbacks of AICN proper have a rep that really doesn't apply to AICN Comics. We like to talk comics, have fun discussing comics, and make it a place where people want to log in and discuss comics. It's a place where all are welcome and free to speak whatever they want as long as people are respected. It isn't a place where one opinion limp-dickly tries to bully others out of logging in just to win an argument in some non-existant debate match of sadness.
One button erases everything you've ever contributed to AICN, JoeNat. Consider that before you start tosing out the verbals and childish I'm-right-so-you're-wrong's.
Thanks Laser
by optimous_douche
Nov 17th, 2008
12:00:18 PM
But i actually didn't see Joenathan's comment directed at my critique, but more as a general STFU.

While I disagree with the heavy handed approach I will agree that the only way to make your voice heard is with your dollars.

“It’s Grant Morrison, it will ass fuck you in the end.”
by Leafar the Lost
Nov 17th, 2008
01:19:34 PM
That is how I am feeling about "Final-Fucking-Crisis". I feel like I am getting ripped off every time I buy it, because I am waiting for something "big" to happen. The death of the MMH and the return of the original Flash are important happenings in the DC Universe, but this series is so bad that it makes it seem...unimportant. Yes, Final Crisis is poorly written, conceived, drawn, and is an all around piece of shit. On the other hand, Marvel's Secret Invasion is far better in every way. It is well written, the art is OK but acceptable, it is well conceived, and all of the other titles are tied in with it. All of Marvel is tied into the Secret Invasion, while the rest of the DC Universe is ignoring Final Crisis, which leads me to believe that it isn't taking place on the same Earth. Maybe that will be the final ass-fuck at the end. Fuck you, Grant Morrison, for wasting my time and money with your bullshit series. It wasn't worth it...
Bug/Joen
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
01:22:27 PM
Not that Joenathan needs anyone to defend him, but as a long time reader and occasional poster on the talkback, I have to say that I enjoy his posts; he brings a lot of comic knowledge and does it with a good dose of humor and an obvious love for the medium. I also don't think he is scaring anyone from posting and has been involved in some rather good debates, including the epic BND debate on last week’s reviews. I'm not sure why he needs to be called out at all. My two cents, for what it’s worth.
steve...
by Ambush Bug
Nov 17th, 2008
01:36:03 PM
I agree somewhat. When respectufl, JoeNat is a fine contributer to the TBs. He's sparked some good debate. But occasionally and moreso recently (and more commonly at the beginning), he has shown an inability to agree to disagree, instead taunting with "I won this argument." and the ever popular "You are simply wrong because I say so." type comments that annoy the shit out of me. It makes ME not want to post and yes, steve, I've received quite a few personal emails in the past regarding JoeNat's behavior in the TBs. When I feel the need to babysit the TBs, I root out the problem and pluck it. I don't get paid for this shit and I certainly don't get paid to watch some close-minded guy rant. It's just not worth my time to wait until JoeNat spouts off again and disrespects a TBer to the point of logging off. I've ignored it for quite a while, fear not, and he's not gone yet. Banning is something I hate to do (I've done it a total of four times in my seven years at AICN) and I'd rather warn than do so without explanation to give the talkbacker a chance to get it together.
Laserhead
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:04:57 PM
Thats EXACTLY what she says, but I just tell her: Until Congress makes a law saying that you have to move out, I'm here to stay. They're gonna have to kick me off that gravy train screaming!

Also, don't forget to eat that poop.
Hey Ambush
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:10:56 PM
I'm never serious about any of that. If you took it that way, sorry, but let me assure you there was no attempt to ACTUALLY label anyone a Troll or attack anyone (especially Optimus or Laserhead) in any way that matters. I don't really want anyone to eat poop, I'm actually very anti-poop eating, its just some joking around. In fact, if some people here are so put off by what is very obviously not a serious tone, then I put forth that perhaps THEIR bubble is too thin. So, just keep in mind, bud, I'm not being serious. If anyone's feelings are hurt, then I apologize, but thats them, not me.
"DC/Marvel owes us NOTHING"
by Snookeroo
Nov 17th, 2008
02:29:08 PM
I disagree. We're the customer. They owe us everything.

As a customer, if I don't like a title I DO stop buying it.
I think if you act like a dickhead and say, I'm just kidding...
by Laserhead
Nov 17th, 2008
02:38:00 PM
...you're still acting like a dickhead.
Good for you
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:39:04 PM
Thats what I'm talking about.

Purchase equates consent. As long as you do that, but dislike the story, you're sending them the wrong message.
I don't argue that, Laserhead...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:40:23 PM
I'm just not a serious dickhead, except about Giantman's giant Teacup. That thing fucking sucks.
well...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:43:50 PM
Well, maybe I'm a serious dickhead, but I'm not a "serious-minded" dickhead.
Tea-Cups
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
02:52:48 PM
Jarvis hated that fucking tea-cup but not as much as having to vacuum the mansion after the Beast came down for a meeting. Blue hair all over the meeting room - huge hassle.
Beast and Tigra
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
02:54:52 PM
I bet they marked their territory too.
Ugh...
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
03:02:04 PM
Don't even get Jarvis started on Tigra, whenever she was in heat every stray male cat in the neighborhood was on the Avengers south lawn mewing and howling through the night. Plus her costume always clogged up the lint collector in the dryer and almost burnt down the mansion on many occasion… and never a word of thanks. Stuck up cat.
Am I the only one...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
03:08:25 PM
still against the marriage of Vision and Scarlett Witch? Do we need further proof that she was always crazy as a shit house rat? The woman married a robot! A Robot!

Silly.
I don't know where you guys get your comic books...
by SleazyG.
Nov 17th, 2008
03:40:09 PM
...but here in Chicago, *first* you buy the book, *then* you read the book and formulate an opinion. As a result, yes, *first* you spend your money and *then* you say "goddammit, that really sucked--what a fuckin' waste of money." Do I drop books that suck long enough? You bet. Does that mean I can't be annoyed that they suck? Not at all. Look, if you go see "Indiana Jones and the Stupid Alien Thingies" and *then* you say "goddamn, that movie sucked", does anyone say "well, you paid for the ticket, so you don't get to voice your opinion"? Of course not, because that would be FUCKING STUPID. In exactly the same way, when you *buy* a comic book first, *then* decide you didn't like it, you have every right to complain that a product you purchased failed to met your expectations. The implication that once you buy a product you surrender the right to criticize it is idiotic.
True
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
03:41:44 PM
but once you buy the seventh one...
So Scarlett Witch marries a guy
by Snookeroo
Nov 17th, 2008
03:42:44 PM
with a built-in vibrator. What's so hard to understand about that?
And that's why I wait for not just graphic novels
by crankyoldguy
Nov 17th, 2008
03:47:06 PM
but reduced-or-half-price-or-less availability of graphic novel collections; or, wow, local libraries. Comics are just too costly now; I don't know how you young'ns do it, buying multi-titles every month, but that's what keeps the biz going. Morrison's isn't always brilliant, but he is often engaging. I'm big on Johns' work (GL,JSA, Titans, etc) and much of Loeb's and even Bendis. I still think Millar loathes super-heroes and concepts of such. And the big events like final crisis, et al? wait for those collected versions, hardcover or paperback.
...and in California, you're now only allowed
by crankyoldguy
Nov 17th, 2008
03:48:53 PM
to marry a robot of the opposite gender. So that Marvel/DC crossover of a Platinum of Metal Men and Jocasta romance is out.
Actually
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
03:52:15 PM
the giant red dildo joke occured to me after I posted... I deeply regret the missed oppurtunity.
I don't get...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
03:53:58 PM
the Millar hates superheroes thing. I've seen it on here before and I don't feel that way at all. Please to explain.
Jocasta
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
04:00:05 PM
Isn't she with Machine Man these days? Actually what is Machine man up too.. that guy is due for a comeback- Arno Stark I'm sure is begging for another beat down.
Steve
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
04:04:46 PM
Marvelzombies 3.

It actually got off to a good start. Fun. Although some of Aaron stack's dialogue is a weak imitation of Ellis' Aaron Stack, but still passable.
wow
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
04:15:32 PM
Thanks for the tip Joen. I'm getting that tomorrow. The cover is bad-ass. Machine Man is back and now he has a cool private detective jacket to go with his Kirby pants!
Didn't you ever read Nextwave?
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
04:37:34 PM
Thats where he got the coat and that book was fan-fucking-tastic.
Story-telling Structure
by ChocolateJesus
Nov 17th, 2008
05:25:47 PM
Please don't hold comic books to some standard that forces them to be structured in some way that you're comfortable with. The creators know what they're putting in every issue. If you find fault with the pacing of an issue, that's fine, but don't expect comic books (which is a very broad medium) to structure themselves like a network TV show. That diminishes their artistic potential. I haven't read any of Final Crisis, but I have read comics with questionable pacing, and if the content is well-written, it shouldn't matter. Its not all about the payoff. Also, if people are getting so upset about what some guy types up on a glorified message board that they're actuall narc-ing to the administrators, whatever they have to say should be immedieately discounted, because they are pussies.
I Certainly Hope CJ
by optimous_douche
Nov 17th, 2008
05:49:57 PM
That the Creators know what they are putting in each issue.

That's why I didn't lay the final onus of blame on the creators, but rather the publishers.

TPB's used to be an after thought. When a story arc sold off the shelves, and bled through its second or third printing they would TPB it. Now-a-days the TPB is already being solicited before the damn series has finished.

I don't hate TPB's, despite my weekly buys I still go bonzo at Wizard World in the half off TPB bin. I was really posing a question and the few folks that have joined me on this "message board" have answered, TPBs are the way to go.

And yeah, I'm going to hold comics to certain standards, that's kind of we're here. Since Bug stopped the "Malaysian Hookers for Articles" program, it's truly the love of comics that makes us brave the LCS each week so you guys know which trades are worth buying in six months.

Nextwave
by steverodgers
Nov 17th, 2008
05:54:13 PM
How did i miss this? It looks great.
Morrison
by Don Lockwood
Nov 17th, 2008
08:35:51 PM
I like to think that I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, but in the many years I've been reading comics, Grant Morrison stories continually leave me scratching my head. I usually have to reread past issues to get current issues and even then, sometimes, that doesn't help. I realize that maybe he just isn't for me, yet somehow I find myself reading Final Crisis and Batman: RIP simply because they're supposed to be character-defining series. Maybe I just like my storytelling to be somewhat clear and his just always seems completely muddled. However, I don't remember Animal Man being hard to comprehend, just more cerebral. We3 wasn't hard to understand. Has he grown into an increasingly hard-to-track writer? Can he get away with being more obtuse and obscure now because he's GRANT MORRISON?

On a separate note, I totally agree that these "events" would work better as double issues even if it's multiple double issues. They could still collect them in trade later and you might not feel so let down by any expository sections.

Steverodgers, Trade paperbacks and Grant Morrison
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
11:51:31 PM
You seriously missed Nextwave? You have to get it. The Captain is the best superhero ever. So... whats it like now that you've escaped that desert island?

I think we just need to accept that trades are the future. I think we're moving toward a time which will see the weekly pamphlets phased out. I can't imagine them being cost effective for too much longer. I mean, how would everyone feel if a book came out every two to three months in a longer, more durable format instead of monthly pamphlets? Think how that alone would change the pacing and story telling. I'd think they could package more into "mini" trades anyway. I mean, I love comic book Wednesday, but does anyone out there really think thats going to last another 5 years? 10 years? Especially in the wake of the Watchman trade boom?

Grant Morriosn has his coherant moments and his incoherant moments. All Star Superman? Coherant. The Filth? Incoherant. We3? Coherant (and awesome). Seaguy? Incoherant. The Invisibles? Amazing, sometimes coherant, sometimes incoherant, all great. Seven Soldiers? Also great, but got REAL incoherant toward the end. You never know which Morrison you're going to get. His JLA wow-ed me. His X-men was fantastic and strange. His Batman was underwhelming. As for Final Crisis... I think I really like its crazy lack of cohesion. I'm not feeling lost at all. The heroes are losing all over, their defenses are falling. Superman is lost between time, Wonder woman is subjugated, Batman is captured, Green Arrow screamed defiance to the last. Its Earth's darkest hour. What else do you need to know?

I had an odd/cool thought... what if he were to tie the ending of Rock of Ages (Connor Hawke and the Atom kill Darkseid) with the end of Final Crisis? That'd be a cool time cross over type thing.

I think Civil War/House of M/World War Hulk/Secret Invasion totally could have used the extra room.
uh...
by Joenathan
Nov 17th, 2008
11:54:12 PM
That last part was talking about double sized issues.
So now DC is going to remove Superman
by Snookeroo
Nov 18th, 2008
01:17:03 PM
from Action comics.

Simply put, that is completely retarded.
Nextwave was my favorite comic
by the milf lover
Nov 18th, 2008
06:26:48 PM
of the past 5 years, and Marvel needs to be kicked and exploded for cancelling it!
No, U Get 2 Talk About What U Don't Like...
by Buzz Maverik
Nov 19th, 2008
07:25:50 AM
...because comics are both an addictive drug and and an artform. The addicts will always be singing the praises. You all hate Liefield, right? You won't believe me when I tell you that there was a time when all the fans loved him (here's where everybody says, "Not me, Buzz, I never loved him and we were never at war with East Asia, only with Eurasia like we are now")and he and his publishers never heard a peep, only the cha-ching and the accolades. The only people questioning the emperor's nudity were fellow pros who looked jealous at the time...
It's not that Morrison's incoherent...
by Laserhead
Nov 19th, 2008
07:46:22 AM
His writing style has just changed in this very, very important way: he no longer does transitions.
Hey
by Joenathan
Nov 19th, 2008
09:19:58 AM
I CAN say that I NEVER bought or liked Leifeld. I never got it. I hated his New Mutants right from the start. Howvever, I ate up Jim Lee's terrible comics with a spoon right to the very end.

As for bitching, you can bitch all you want, HOWEVER, if you are continually buying a book you hate and complaining about it... then you are stupid.
Reviewers Here Buy A Lot They Don't Like
by Buzz Maverik
Nov 21st, 2008
07:42:51 AM
I helped found this column. Well, not this one, but the main review column. A big reason that I stopped reviewing was that I was buying and reading so many lousy comics that I was starting to dislike the artform. But if a critic stuck to what they knew they liked, in a weekly column, you'd get the same set of reviews each month. A big problem is today's market. No one wants to go back to the isolation of the early 00s where, say, the X-MEN seemed to exist in their own movie universe of mutants, but you can't ignore the crossover now. As a joke, the @$$holes purposely ignored CIVIL WAR the first month or so, but it was a joke that didn't work. We had to address it because it is what comics had become and what has been expanded on from there. You review the good and bad in that, if you review mainstream superhero comics.

Me, the only comic I'm reading these days is a trade of Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT: FEMME FATALES.

In Defense of Joenathan
by Continentalop
Nov 21st, 2008
11:15:12 AM
Apparently I am one of the few guys here who likes Joenathon here. Yes he can be “pompous”, “obnoxious”, and “narrow-minded” (other people words, not mine) but he actually does spark good debates and while he won’t really concede any points, he does force you to come up with some solid arguments for your viewpoint. I see him as the bar know-it-all. Maybe a little abrasive, but he makes the place a lot more fun on a Tuesday night.

Having said that, I will say that his argument about the only way to send criticism to the companies is to stop buying their comic is something I disagree with, which we debated a few talkbacks ago when we were discussing BND. Yes, I do think you shouldn’t support a product you don’t like, and to be honest I buy maybe a handful of comics a month if I am lucky. I find very few worth reading nowadays. Still, I see no problem with criticizing something you love or had loved in the past and think it has fallen in standard. I am a Vikings fan and right now they are mediocre. I barely watch them nor do I go to any of the games (I live in LA now) but does that mean I shouldn’t be able to criticize them and offer my opinion? And if my opinions and ideas have no merit, well I fully expect someone to say so, but not to arbitrarily discount them. Do the Vikings owe me anything? No (but they do owe the fans of Minnesota since they are building them a new stadium), but that doesn’t mean I can’t offer my two-cents as a fan about what they should do.

Or how about the President of the US? While I am not delusional enough to say that a comic is comparable to political office, by your logic we shouldn’t be able to criticize Barack Obama or the Democratic or Republican parties at all, whether we voted for them or not. The only way to show our displeasure would be through elections and vote out those we disapprove of, but with only elections as the way to determine the course of the country. No political debates, criticisms, polls, discussion or anything other than elections for determining a person or parties general popularity. You couldn’t criticize a president or party; couldn’t point out his lies or how he has mislead people; couldn’t offer an argument for or against any policies and couldn’t possible change people’s minds about something through argument. The only way anyone could show his or her displeasure or disagreement would be by voting and only through voting. Like I said before, I am not so grandiose to truly compare comic book buying to politics, but I will say that buying a comic, much like voting, is the number one way to influence what a company does (just look at the GOP) don’t eliminate the need for debate. Who knows, maybe one person will offer such valid insight that will galvanize people of at least make them wish they had listened to him. I mean, several years ago if people had listened to Peter Schiff about Sub-Prime Mortgages and Well Street we might not be in the economic mess we are in right now.

Of Course The Comic Companies Owe Us...
by Buzz Maverik
Nov 21st, 2008
07:46:08 PM
...they don't exist without us. The @$$holes have often been about fan improvement and fan empowerment, which isn't easy because if there was ever a subculture that doesn't want to be empowered, it's comic book fans! The first step is to realize that we don't owe them, they owe us. Erase the line, erase the hero worship. They owe us good comics for the money we pay.
Look...
by Joenathan
Nov 24th, 2008
09:14:05 AM
You can critize all you want, but if you keep giving them money, then why the hell would they care about your opinion?
And they don't owe you anything.
by Joenathan
Nov 24th, 2008
09:15:54 AM
They are a corporation. They exist to make money. Period. The only language they ultimately understand is money. If you think fan approval outweighes the bottom line, then you're just being delusional.
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