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Final Crisis #4 First Review by most excellent ninja	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:07:26 AM
http://handofmessi.blogspot.co m This is messi. Until I find my old password I will use this, though I may upgrade. I am becoming too synonymous with the Barcelona God.
Astonishing.... by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:09:04 AM
I had great reservations about Ellis on Astonishing, especially after reading his first issue, but am now really digging it. I felt like it was less a "filler issue" than a "set up" issue. You could argue that's just a case of tomato versus tamato, but I see a difference. And, although there was certainly a lack of action, I like where things are headed. I love the Beast/Brand relationship stuff. Poor Beasty hasn't had much luck with the ladies in the past, and I like that the relationship is being continued with Ellis. Also, I sort of liked all the S.W.O.R.D. stuff from the last storyline. As for the whole "Ghost Box" thingy, it seems like it's got potential.....
Hey! Nice job! by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:10:17 AM
Feel free to delete my first two posts as well!
I also really enjoyed Uncanny.... by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:22:45 AM
for that matter. Sure, it was one long chase scene, slash, redemption tale. But, dammit, I still found it enjoyable. As far as new recruits go, Pixie seems more interesting than any in recent memory. Hell, Armor has been around for a dozen issues or more, and already I feel like I know more about this pink haired, winged chick. SPOILERS Also, I first began ready Uncanny when they were hanging out on Alcatraz, and had adopted Scott's ex-wife as one of their own. So as irritating as her character might be to some, I'm sorta looking forward to her return....
I had the same probelm with the new Goon. by rev_skarekroe	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:43:17 AM
Who WAS the chick at the end, anyway?
Number Six: most comic books suck and I... by Leafar the Lost	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:00:03 AM
...refuse to buy them. I go to a large book store, buy a cup of coffee ($1.49) grab a stack of comics, sit and read them. I call it renting the comic books, due to the insane amount of money DC/Marvel is charging for pieces of crap. I recall in my distant youth buying comics for .50 cents that were far, far superior. Occassionally they would even put out a special, double issue and not charge you more for it. You even had Annuals that came out every year (hence the word "annual") and they were good. It was all good, until corporate greed took over, and everything started to suck. ...out source their souls to HELL!!!! YOU MANIACS! GOD DAMN YOU! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!
Optimus Douche: It's "Lightning Lad," not "Live Wire"... by The Nihilist	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:30:33 AM
...at least when you're referring to the pre-Zero Hour Legion (or, as I and a lot of other fans think of them, The Real Legion, and the one that I dearly hope continues to get the bulk of attention after this whole Final Crisis thing sorts itself out). Sigh. Anybody else out there really wish Tom and Mary Bierbaum had been allowed to continue their "Five Years Later" iteration of the Legion? Deep characterization, intriguing plotting and characters that were actually allowed to grow.
awesome by Joenathan	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:30:57 AM
I want more, Leafar
LoSH by Joenathan	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:32:40 AM
Man, talk about a polarizing comic, you either love the fuck out of it or you just couldn't give a shit. Personally, I can't give a shit, but I've often thought of trying... well... not OFTEN, but occasionally... Is there sex or is it all innocent?
"Why is Wonder Woman here and not Superman?" by tonagan	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:40:56 AM
Because of her rack?
Thanks Nihl by optimous_douche	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:48:46 AM
It's very tough to sort out if you don't follow them religiously. I tried to do a bit of online research, but even Wikipedia seems confused (debated whether to refer to Cosmic Boy as Rokk or not, hope I made the right choice - if not call me on it).
Joen LoSH by optimous_douche	Oct 22nd, 2008 09:51:52 AM
If you mean the FC tie-in and not the shooter book I can answer. No sex, but far from innocent. Good read, if you don't mind a lot of shift in focus since so much is happening.
Leon Spinks vs She Hulk crossover? by Baron Karza	Oct 22nd, 2008 10:40:10 AM
Am I missing that?
Yo Optimus! by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 11:08:31 AM
The 'power struggle' in LOTW#2 is Between Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl (aka Rokk Krinn, Garth Ranzz, and Imra Ardeen). Live Wire is from the Zero Hour LSH (The Legion that was lost in limbo that shows up along with the 'Threeboot' legion towards the end of the issue). (*_^)
"Rokk" is fine with me... by The Nihilist	Oct 22nd, 2008 11:43:58 AM
..not that I'm the official arbiter of all things Legion, though I'd like to be. Somebody needs to take the reigns and get things back to basics (again, REALLY wish the Bierbaums had been allowed to follow through on their vision). Can't blame OD or the Wiki page for being confused, LSH continuity is a clusterfuck these days. Joenathan, if you're not a LSH fan from way back, it's probably too late. It's an addiction that seems to have to start early. I have no idea how kids today react to it (probably not very well, considering that they've had to reboot twice) but if you're of a certain age the Legion can really be something special. I jumped in in the mid-'70s. It was great that the team was essentially organized like the club you ran in your back yard. It was awesome that they were all teenagers (because when you're an adolescent teenagers are like demigods). And yeah, those Dave Cockrum/Mike Grell costumes didn't hurt anything either, ESPECIALLY on the female characters. Had many "special moments" dreaming about Princess Projectra and Shadow Lass....
gross by Joenathan	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:00:29 PM

Actually No, it's not..... by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:01:36 PM
Legion continuity in 3 easy steps: 1. Original Legion, which is the legion in John's recent Action Comics run and the 'center' legion of LOTW. This is the Legion that was friends with Superman when he was a teenager. 2. Zero Hour Legion. Was created during the Zero HOur event as a replacement for the OG Legion (see above) whose continuity HAD become a clusterfuck by that (Can you say Batch SW6?)point. Eschews the "lad-lass" naming convention on several characters (IE-Lightning Lad becomes Live Wire, Phantom Girl becomes Apparition)This legion was shunted into 'Limbo'(literally) just before the start of Infinite Crisis. In the 2 page spread in LOTW#2 showing the 2 legions pulled into OG's Universe, they are on the right. 3. 'Threeboot' Legion, replacing the Zero Hour Group. Characterised by a marked age-ism and returns to the boy-girl, lad-lass naming custom as a nod to the 21st century. Least liked of the 3 for me.
"Marked age-ism" is right... by The Nihilist	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:17:32 PM
...the whole "teenagers stick it to The Adults and show 'em how to run the galaxy" theme of the Threeboot legion is the most annoying and ridiculous element of the current series. Anybody who believes in the superior judgement of teenagers probably hasn't spent five minutes watching MTV lately.
OK new LoSH Question by optimous_douche	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:29:04 PM
Coming of age in the early 90's as I did, I followed Lobo like most other pent-up bastiches. So my question is how or is L.E.G.I.O.N.(insert year) that Lobo was part of relate to this Legion? Only reason I ask is becasue they both had Brainiacs.
Didn't really follow L.E.G.I.O.N.... by The Nihilist	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:33:03 PM
...but I know the Braniac in that series is supposed to be the ancestor of the Braniac in LSH. WHICH Braniac? Your guess is as good as mine. I also think that Chameleon Boy and Phantom Girl (or whatever they were called, from whatever version of the LOSH) did some time-travelling back to that team at one point.
rev_skarekroe by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:34:33 PM
Was that question directed at me, regarding Uncanny X-men?
Simone Bianchi by Berserkr	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:43:15 PM
I HATE his art, i hated it on Wolverine and i hate in in Astonishing X-Men, his people look to goofy and Wolverines hair is way to wild.
No, BangoSkank by rev_skarekroe	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:48:56 PM
I meant I had the same problem with the new Goon that the reviewer did. This chick shows up at the end, but I can't remember who she is or why she's important.
The Missing Superman by Don Lockwood	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:50:43 PM
I cannot believe a book that has Superman on the cover and in the title, but no Superman in the actual book is getting a pass here. Talk about the ultimate bait-and-switch. Where's the outrage?
If I recall correctly.... by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:52:06 PM
The L.E.G.I.O.N was run by Vril Dox II who was the 'son' of Vril Dox I (The original Brainiac) and the ancestor of Querl Dox (Brainiac 5). Other than that and some Legionnaires time-travelling and hanging with L.E.G.I.O.N. there's no connections to the LOSH.
Gotcha.... by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 12:53:13 PM
I should have realized that.... I skipped over the Goon review. A comic I've always meant to read, but never have. A couple of chicks show up at the end of Uncanny too....
Ask me ANYTHING about the LoSH... by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 01:02:51 PM
I'm a lifelong fan even going so far as to put up with Waid's retarded reboot that Shooter has made almost likeable but now it's getting cancelled with issue 50 version.
Thanks Psy by optimous_douche	Oct 22nd, 2008 01:22:36 PM
Appreciate the insight.
Astonishing X-Men by steverodgers	Oct 22nd, 2008 01:43:53 PM
Is kind of awesome. I love that i can actually understand what is happening in a x-men comic again. Not quite sold on Bianchi's art, it's a little heavy Metaly for my taste. Also is Kitty Pryde still hurling through space in a giant bullet? she must be starting to get wicked bored.
LoS getting cancelled, Psynapse? by The Nihilist	Oct 22nd, 2008 02:44:41 PM
Please, PLEASE say it is! More importantly, please please tell me that a few months afterwords DC will relaunch the series with the original Legion! (They can have a once-a-year crossover with one or both of the other two just like the Justice League/Justice Society crossovers from back in the '60s and '70s). Please, please, PLEASE!
I am totally against Bianchi's art by Joenathan	Oct 22nd, 2008 02:46:35 PM
Bianchi is talented, I won't say that he/she(?) can't draw, but I will say that I think its the ugliest comic book art available. Thats the only way I can categorize it: Ugly. But even more so, I think the muddy coloring palette is total poop. And honestly, Ellis's take is not tripping my trigger. In short: I might drop the book.
You actually like the Simon Bianchi art??!! by kungfuhustler84	Oct 22nd, 2008 02:57:10 PM
at times it is beautiful, yes, especially his technology and equipment drawings, and that shot of the island is pretty much amazing. But what about his facial stuff? His women look like cracked out meth addicts and his men,especially Cyclops, just look ridiculous. Did you not see the picture of his "o" face? Sheesh, all this coming from the guy who said he liked Frank Quitely for his knack for expression in the character's faces. The new Astonishing X-men has zero of that.
Dear Nihilist..... by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 03:05:09 PM
Yep. Issue 50 is the last of the current run ( I know, Snoopy dance time) and rumor is that Johns will be relaunching an OG Legion title some time next year that germinates out of LOTW.
Bianchi can't do faces worth shit.... by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 03:06:35 PM
and one look at Storm ought to show you he can't design clothes that well either.
More AXM/Bianchi by steverodgers	Oct 22nd, 2008 03:08:41 PM
Exactly -his faces are just not good. There is a couple of panels of Emma frost where it looks like her face is melting, or made of shitty plastic. In terms of the story i kind of like the whole 'indiana jonesy' discovery aspect, going to weird locals, solving a mystery thing... i also like that it seems to be self contained. No skrulls (not that there is anything wrong with that)- although i just noticed that the cover says 'Manifest Destiny' - i dont have the god damndest what that is about.
Speaking of Wonky Art by steverodgers	Oct 22nd, 2008 03:15:15 PM
I noticed a hard cover omnibus type thing of Hero's Reborn with a wildly Liefeldian Liefeld cover in my LCS. Who the hell is buying that? The economics of the comic book industry completely baffles me.
JG Jones= Epic Fail by Psynapse	Oct 22nd, 2008 03:59:11 PM
Apparently a year isn't a sufficient head start for the 7 issue highest point of your career. DC editorial, there's blood on your hands too you fucks.
Doug Fucking Mahnke? by Laserhead	Oct 22nd, 2008 04:44:02 PM
That's what you're reduced to? That's the best you got, for your number-one, biggest, most defining event? Jesus Christ. I keep thinking what J.H. Williams would have done with this. Not to mention R.I.P. Although Tony Daniel is punctual, so I'm going to lay off him.
Manifest Destiny by BangoSkank	Oct 22nd, 2008 07:47:32 PM
Ha. I meant to bring that up. What the fuck is it? It's on all the X-titles I get, but I have no idea what it is. There's a 4-part mini coming out, but what's about? And more important, why should I care? And I agree about the Bianchi art. Is anyone reading the Wolverine/X-men Legacy crossover? Is it worth my time and money?
Ultra Boy banged Saturn Girl last issue by Squashua	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:40:34 PM
Of the most recent iteration; took her in the supply closet while they were off-duty.
The easiest to read and follow Legion was... by Squashua	Oct 22nd, 2008 08:45:49 PM
... the Reboot Legion. That would be the "Legion of Super-Heroes" (and issues of "Legionnaires") that were published at and following Zero Hour, starting with issue #0 and continuing with whatever numbering system they went with. It was good for quite a while, up until part-way through the "Final Night" crossover. Appropriate issues of "Impulse" and "Superboy" hit all the right beats and made it an excellent read. Many beats that reiterated events with the original LSH were pretty good. The only problem I had with the Reboot LSH was the variety of misconstrued origins given to the Fatal Five.
Agreed Squash.... by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 07:22:36 AM
Though I will always love the OG Legion (and especially Dave Cockrum's costumes), the Zero Hour Legion WAS the most cohesive and enjoyable. I'm still trying to figure out why Mark Waid though obnoxious age-ism made for a compelling plot point of the threeboot legion.
Wow by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 08:33:43 AM
So, lets see... Topics that unite the messagboard: A. Judd Winnick is a retard. B. Liefeld sucks... big time. And now... Bianchi blows. Any others? The real question is though: If the rumors are true and there are thousands of nerds with portfolios trying to break into the industry and working the convention circuit to build contacts, how do these three get work? Maybe Bianchi shouldn't yet be lumped in with those other two fucking hacks, but still... is the perspective talent pool out there waiting to get in that shallow that the industry is forced to return to these creators again and again, despite their clearly evident lack of talent and complete dirth of fan and critical support OR is the industry just more inbred than a back woods Alabama christian, hilly billy clan?
Also by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 08:35:03 AM
Loeb is crap and Joe Mad is stuck in the 90s and a lazy bitch tom boot.
"to boot" by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 08:36:22 AM
NOT "Tom Boot". I don't know if that guy is a lazy bitch or not. I'm going to go with "probably", but then, people have often accused me of being a cynic.
Industry Talent by steverodgers	Oct 23rd, 2008 09:09:25 AM
Quite frankly I really don’t think there are that many artist that can draw everything a writer wants them too, tell a story sequentially, do it on time and in a visually interesting way. I think if you can do those things you have yourself a job. I went to a DC workshop on submissions last year at NYC Con out of curiosity, (although I drew a mean wolverine when I was 12) and it seemed to me that they were saying: “we need artist that have their shit together and if you do we will hire you on the spot, I mean right now… please god let there be someone here…”. So although Bianchi isn’t for me (and apparently no one else on this talkback) he is probably quite appealing to an editor. Leifeld is a mystery to me, but he always was even when he was selling a million books. Winnick I suppose has had his moments(green arrow maybe), but he does seem indicative of an industry that needs to solicit, or at least give new writers a chance, especially when there are lots of writers that are worth a look that are gamely toiling away on independent books of all sorts.
Tom Boot by steverodgers	Oct 23rd, 2008 09:17:20 AM
Joen, you are correct, Tom Boot is and always has been a lazy bitch.
I knew it, Steve by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 09:32:59 AM
I knew it... fuckin' Tom Boot...
I suppose you're right, though, steve by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 09:34:54 AM
If an artist can show that they can do the work, on time and consistently, then they probably would get hired, especially since so few working artists can actually make those requirements themselves...
Let's not forget the 'Inbred' factor by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 09:57:51 AM
The comics industry is as clique-ish and socially inbred as any high school in America but likely with less common sense and ruled even more by domineering egoes.
FC VS SI by Homer Sexual	Oct 23rd, 2008 10:16:17 AM
I am not going to spoil anything, but to my shock and dismay, FC 4 was definitely better than SI 7. I guess SI for me is something that is an enjoyable read, but fleeting and insubstantial. Up till now, I have found FC to be dull and disjointed, but with this issue I felt like maybe the pieces are coming together. However, I can't make a final call until both series are finished. Psynapse, I am also a looong time LSH reader, (for example, I was reading back when Dawnstar was introduced for the very first time). I loved the White Triangle/Sensor/Kinetix/Androm eda era. Was that right before zero hour? I also liked the Gates/Monstress/Kid Quantum/Umbra time...that was zero hour, right? But Mark Waid (who I have never read anything about) just has such a square and uncool vision of the Legion that I had to drop it. Shooter made it mildly interesting, but I can't say I'm sad it will be cancelled. However, a back-to-basic Legion also sounds boring. If it is a bunch of white kids supposedly from various planets, I will definitely take a pass.
Psynapse by steverodgers	Oct 23rd, 2008 11:12:33 AM
I really don’t think the comics industry is like high school (or at least mot the one you are describing- which sounds pretty awful and apparently located in Appalachia somewhere) –it’s a business and I am sure there is some cronyism and what not going on, but in the end the creators that sell the most books are going to get the work. I think for writers it’s probably very hard to break into the big two, even harder now with Hollywood types getting into it. However a really talented and consistent peniciler is hard to come by – look at all the late books that come out because of that problem – if DC/Marvel could find someone that the fans like that could do it on time, they would hire them in a second. Granted maybe I am being a little idealistic here… and there is still no explanation for Winnick – maybe he is secretly Dido’s brother- maybe i just proved your point?
I think you did Steve.... by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 11:28:22 AM
lol
Yo Homer! by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 11:30:55 AM
Both groupings you cited are from teh Zero Hour Legion, mah friend. And hey, Geoff Johns has satisfied me so consistently (God how porno does THAT sound?) that I have faith he would make an OG Legion book quite readable. And yeah, I'm STILL annoyed at the ZH LoSH getting shafted for Waid's annoying threeboot.
Yeah, but what about Liefeld? by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 12:08:19 PM
Whats with the resurgence? Retard nostalgia?
He must give good head.... by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 12:13:25 PM
and be keeping Loeb and Quesada quite content.
You guys are being waaay too hard on Bianchi. by SleazyG.	Oct 23rd, 2008 01:14:52 PM
Maybe his stuff is a bit unconventional, but I think it's pretty nice in its own way. The faces may not be for everybody, but then again, I'm a fan of Quitely's work, and to say his faces "may not be for everybody" is a massive understatement at best. I think Bianchi is talented and the work is interesting; it's just not traditional superhero art, but when's the last time you saw that in an Ellis book? PLANETARY, maybe?
Liefeld by steverodgers	Oct 23rd, 2008 01:30:04 PM
I am assuming Tom Boot is behind his resurgence. Tom Boot ruins everything.
Goddamn Tom Boot..... by Psynapse	Oct 23rd, 2008 01:55:34 PM
And yo Sleazy, he IS talented, but his work is just a bit too overwrought for my tastes, especially when ANY face shots look alien and mannequin-like at the same time. And again, that retarded abortion of an outfit that he renders Storm traipsing around in is a fried vomit sammich on greasy bread.
Bianchi by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 02:02:07 PM
I never said he couldn't draw, I just find his style cluttered and ugly. And its not the faces, its everything. The backgrounds appear incomplete and yet muddled, while thes ugly toad people clomp about amongst them. The X-men's "street uniforms" were just embarrassing. And its not the fact that the art is "unconventional" either, as I would name Quietly and Cassidy amongst my favorites. Its just... ugly... Of course, a lot of that might be due to the horribly muddy coloring. I'd check Bianchi out if there was a new colorist, maybe.
I bet Tom Boot hired Bianchi by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 02:02:40 PM

Gotta disagree on the backgrounds... by SleazyG.	Oct 23rd, 2008 02:09:23 PM
...have you seen the new issue of AXM reviewed here? The stuff he does when the team gets to China is amazing.
yeah, by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 02:17:35 PM
but the first couple were filled with fade aways. And the occasional splash page, while detailed, still looks ugly to me. Amazing? Its just cluttered line work. Quietly's minimalist stylings in All star Superman? Now that was amazing.
Plus, by Joenathan	Oct 23rd, 2008 02:20:11 PM
I just googled a picture of the guy and he has Spider-man's webs cut into his hair, which... I don't know... maybe he decided he wanted people to know he was a douchebag without having to actually talk to them or something... Well, mission accomplished!
Can't fault taste on art by optimous_douche	Oct 24th, 2008 06:53:21 AM
People like what they like. I can't stand Ramos' manga lite and a lot of folks hate me for that. Why? I don't know.
I don't hate you for that, Optimus... by Joenathan	Oct 24th, 2008 09:30:33 AM
I have MANY other reasons... ZING!
Not alone in the Ramos hatin' by Psynapse	Oct 24th, 2008 09:53:52 AM
Only completist OCD has me putting up with the now-abysmal Runaways. I can't wait for this opening arc to end so I can drop it from my pull list faster than a cheerleader drops to her knees on Prom night.
I Just Couldn't Do It by optimous_douche	Oct 24th, 2008 12:06:20 PM
I didn't want to hate a series I've loved so much until now. Runaways you will be missed.
You know what series I miss? by Joenathan	Oct 24th, 2008 12:26:02 PM
Blue Monday? Is a new one EVER coming out. Also, I'd totally marry Chynna Clugston, but only if SHE asked ME.
Be glad Optimus, be VERY glad... by Psynapse	Oct 24th, 2008 12:55:14 PM
Dude it's downright painful to read through and grossly obvious that Moore either did minimal research before starting or just decided "Fuck 42 issues of continuity! I've got BETTER ideas!" Seriously, not only are the Runaways acting like they started this gig yesterday but previous character development is thrown COMPLETELY out the window. Example: Even though Whedon's arc had Nico getting schooled by her Great-Grandmother and getting a substantial power up and tweaking of control her latest spell affected everyone in the room (rather than just her targets as had been previously established) and had to be 'revealed' to her in the follwing issue by Victor who 'figures it out'. Ugh, simply AWFUL.
Geez, they were both Zero Hour? by Homer Sexual	Oct 24th, 2008 06:46:42 PM
Well then I definitely like the Zero Hour Legion the best! I did also like Giffen's Legion way back when. The Great Darkness Saga was one of the all-time greats, plus he made White Witch and Dream Girl cool, and even Jacques the Invisible Kid was kind of groovy. Was he the one who made the swooney Violet turn out to be a Durlan? Cause that one was great as well.
Zero Hour Legion: More important than ever now... by Psynapse	Oct 27th, 2008 09:02:55 AM
For one simple reason: The return of Barry Allen. Both of Barry's grandkids (Bart Allen, you may have heard of him, and Jenni Ognats aka XS of the ZH Legion) are FROM the Zero Hour timeline and it was that timeline that Barry originally went to when his series was cancelled in the 80's. Now you know....
Zero Hour Legion by Squashua	Oct 28th, 2008 10:26:51 AM
Zero hour Legion introduced a ton of new characters, which introduced Kinetix (who was odd for having telekinesis, then the Emerald Eye, then some weird super-evolved body), Monstress (the female Hulk that no one liked until they made her like-able right before they killed her off), Gates (the teleporting bug dude), and a few others. I like the recent Mark Waid Legion the least, which surprised even me; and I don't like how Shooter just jumped on it and ret-conned a bunch of stuff. As a long-time reader, that annoys me.

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