the pot calling the kettle a virgin.

Fuck all you want kids...just double bag that...you don't know where that bitch has been.

get over yourself.

I work in a department store so most of my friends are young women and they're always eager to go to a movie, watch a DVD, or talk about cool genre stuff. So if Twilight does what Harry suspects it will then those you ten years younger than me may have a chance to be allowed into the world of women.

Me? I'm not interested in Twilight but if a girl asks me to go, then I'm going.

TallBoy66, vampire stories from the last 30 years helped create this whole "emo" thing, which is really just a stratification of what was once just called "goth." New caste systems are being developed all the time.

But, after seeing that trailer, I gotta say it looks terrible. Im not attacking Twilight the novel, persay, but as a movie this thing looks very poorly crafted. Lets be honest, if this weren't tied to a successful line of books already, we would be writing this off as The Covenant/Blood and Chocolate.

I'm still up for giving Twilight the novel a go,and even if it weren't my thing, I'm not going to demonize it. My guess though, from the trailers, is that when this thing is actually released, it isnt going to be the grumpy male geek contingent out there tearing this thing a new one. It's going to be the diehard addict fans.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope Twilight actually turns out to be good, and that the novels are for a larger audience than the obvious one. Right now though, I honestly think it's the quality of the work(in this case the film) that is enflaming the urge to hate on it. If the work holds up, then some of this whining and moaning will dissipate. But as of right now, I see a probably lackluster product coming our way. And while Hardwicke did make Thirteen(a movie I ddint care for) she also made The Nativity Story which was nine different kinds of overblown and overwrought. And if someone can screw over The Dark is Rising, it's likely they can find a way to annihilate anything inherently interesting or good that might exist in the book.

I have yet to see Catherine Hardwicke's Thirteen, but I don't think Lords of Dogtown gets nearly enough love. She had a serious misstep with The Nativity Story, but all in all, I think her head's screwed on straight as a director and I trust that she's going to try to get the best out of this material. Thanks again, Harry!

Where's that love now...

This shit is the same fucking thing. It's Anne Rice Wannabe Tripe with some Teen Soap Opera Elements tossed in with tons of pop culture winks. It's going to have 15 minutes and then it will soon be forgotten and ignored like those other sensations. Girls don't support like we do. They go nuts over some dumb fucking shit too. I'm calling Kick-Ass the New Kids on The Block MArtin wannabe for us She-Man's. That film is based on a great idea that's was developed in a mind incapable of really doing it any sort of justice. Martin will always hold the candle on this subject matter of turning into something for no real goddamn reason.

The thing is, I had never heard of Twilight before the movie started getting hype, and like many others just said, I think the trailers look like shit!

And as for that article in CHUD it was far less and indictment on the actor than it was about the advertisement being shoved down our throats and the cliche nature of the material. Harry, you constantly argue about the shit state or horror, well why shouldnt someone else be able to say that about the Vampire subgenre? Especially when films about kid vampires like Let the Right One In exist only to get remade immediately, probably into watered down crap?

And as for the distaste for anything considered "tween". Nothing could possibly be more justified. Tween isn't just for kids anymore, it's hit the mainstream and like it or not it's in your face more than any other kind of entertainment. Constantly The problem is that it's so banal, cynical, and coma inducing I fear for the entire generation that has to grown up with it. For instance High School Musical. Now a little background, I don't expect anything geared at that age range to be brilliant, but when something becomes a zeitgeist I expect it to at least be competent for it's genre. High School Musical, which I caught about 20 minutes of over a family members house (i swear, no really), showed me exactly how cynical and machiavellian the whole tween genre is. It was poorly constructed and cheap on every level. From the cheap look of the sets to the songs that literally sound like they were being constructed via improv by the actors on the spot. It didn't amaze me that kids like it, kids like anything, but the fact that it's a crossover hit is frightening and I weep for anyone over the age of 15 who enjoys it. I could see the studio heads who pay pennies on the dollar for this crap laughing at how stupid the public is. The tween genre is completely without basis as something of quality. Period.

Sure is easy to drench a pair of panties these days....

For example, dreamboat hunk vampire can read minds. Everybody except whatshernames and the reason given is "that she's a very private person".

That is reason enough to hate it.

"Vegetarian Vampire", "Special Powers" especially when said special power is something to do with running away.

Thanks but no thanks.

Now, if you're personally INTO fiction geared towards girls wearing training bras, fine... someone should probably warn the kids in your neighborhood.

But don't try to cover up your bizarre fetishes by accusing the rest of malekind of having some sort of repressed homoerotic hangups because WE don't get all giggly at the thought of reading the angsty tales of an immature teenage girl and her effeminate vampire boyfriend.

Certainly scarier than EMO vampires with the power to hide.

Fuck this shit- it looks awful.

http://stoney321.livejourna l.com/317176.html

And isn't that incredibly rude/ dismissive to the likes of Marva. AICN does have some women users you know.

Why is a 100+ year old vamp going to high school anyway? Wouldn’t repeating Biology get old after oh, the first dozen times? And yes, as someone pointed out, even though he looks like a teen it’s kinda creepy for someone with his maturity level to be so infatuated in a 17 year old, except gee, the attraction is...the way she smells! So romantic.

I don’t see how the movie can be worse then the book, it really almost has to be better. Hopefully they take the last part that had some action and make that the whole movie.
And if you want to convert females over 15 to geekdom, try the Charlaine Harris series that the show TrueBlood is based on. It worked on my co-worker ;D Those books are excellent and parts are extremely romantic.

I think I'm one of the few people who've managed to walk in two worlds, at least in reference to geekdom and tween fads. Hell, I can recite the history of Middle-Earth. I've also read all 4 Twilight books multiple times. And I can safely say this: Harry's thesis that Twilight could possibly be gateway geek material is pretty unrealistic.

The thing is, Twilight is nothing but your standard Tween romance plot. It's about a girl who falls in love with a guy, who happens to be a vampire--it's not about a vampire falling in love with a girl. The romance crap takes center stage; the supernatural elements are completely secondary--although they do permeate the novel.

As far as I'm concerned, the only benefit the Twilight series has for geeks is that it's a unique look into the female psyche. It's also a good conversation starter with girls who've read Twilight. Other than this, Twilight really has no benefit to the everyday geek.

Relationships require compromise and sacrifice to make them work, so quit bitching and take your girl to see Twilight.

When you're married you just do that stuff... because if you don't, one of you is too selfish and the marriage eventually fails.

I have a question, Wenchy (great username)- are you going to make your husband go to this?

Gee I guess my wife is just fucking ignorant then. But unlike your fantasy geek woman that doesn't get into this, my wife is real, and I don't judge her because she has the nerve to like something. Prick.

And I am not a dick for my previous statement. When I was dating before we were married, and if a female was seriously into this kind of shit I would really question being with her. I just have an absolute lack of respect for anyone interested in something so dull and formulaic. I'm sorry.

I have faith in America. I have faith Obama shall win the Presidency and this Mormon Propaganda will burn in flames.

That's a dickhead statement. And I have an absolute lack of respect for someone who makes profound character judgments on a human being because of the films they like. Kind of superficial, petty, and childish. It's like something a person with very pour social skills would do.

However, having said that, there are still some things that are beyond me. I would not even ask her to come to the pub to watch the football(for example), and she extends the same courtesy to me. If she asked, of course I go with her, but (and this is important) she wouldn't ask. She would mention it, but in the context of having already made arrangements. If I wanted to go, I could.

Compromise is one thing, but consideration is another.

Blu-ray.

Wow is all I can say. That is fucking pathetic. And people wonder why film quality is getting worse and worse with each passing year. Its because of this heard mentality. Seriously people...grow a fucking brain. If the film looks like shit-- here's what you do, don't go see it!! What a novel idea, right?

And the example I used- the important bit was "to watch the football" but good to see you missed the point completely.

Dickhead.

"

Everyone's had to have seen the propaganda coming out for the newly minted movie but how many of you actually managed to sit through the novel itself?

Yeah I'm talkin' about Twilight.

I picked up a copy at Goodwill for around $1 and didn't feel too bad about it since that's a pretty small sum of money to spend for a novel that thick. I figured I needed some easy summer reading to be counterproductive to all my thick war novels and classics.

Oh how I wish I could take it all back.

I read the entire thing in one sitting - not hard to do considering it's geared towards a younger audience and the writing itself flows like an angst-fueled Livejournal entry. I skipped large chunks that didn't immediately contribute to the plot and found myself starting to skim even important scenes because let me tell you...

..this book sucks.

Not only does the book suck... but so does the author. I never bothered with the other three books in the series and instead read short online synapses of them so that I could at least see where the author was trying to take her characters with all that sniveling bullshit she threw together in book one.

Let's be completely honest here. Stephenie Meyer is basically writing Anne Rice fanfiction. Really bad Anne Rice fanfiction. She probably saw the movies (only the first of which was good) and decided to take some creative liberties here and there and of course add in what I'm sure she thought was "original material" then added in some glitter (for SPARKLE) and called it her own.

I spent the majority of the book bewildered at what was going on... not because of clarity issues but because... it's just so stupid. I don't even know where to start tearing into this poo poo. You should really go to her website to get the full effect. Its like reading the myspace page of a bitchy, PMS-ing 14 year old girl. No self-respecting 30-year-old woman should be writing the kind of bullshit that she writes and more importantly no one as loving stupid as her should've procreated. I am disgusted that she has three children. Really? You felt the need to pass on your genetic predisposition to suck at everything onto three unsuspecting Womb Lice?! I hope those boys grow up outside of your influence and go on to have successful lives where they pay to have you put in a home because lady, you are deranged.

Really, I mean it, go visit her website: http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/ index.html

Be sure to go to each of the titles in the series and click and then go to the "Playlist" drop down. Because it wasn't bad enough that she wrote horribly but she listens to really bad music too; and shamefully includes some good bands on there that I hope feel violated that she's used them for "inspiration."

I bet she still cuts herself because its edgy and puts her intouch with her blood lusting characters. Also if you read her bio you will basically find where every single one of her characters comes from. Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against lifting certain situations and characterizations from life to put into your characters because lets face it - all good authors do that. You write what you know but at the same time you embellish certain other facts outside of the "life plagiarism" and build more originality out from there. I am guilty of this, you are guilty of this and I know drat well that successful authors are too. BUT! If you are a good writer you are not, I repeat not, mary-sueing an entire collection of novels.

I'm going to give you three guesses on who "Bella" (the lead female) is based off of. And the first two don't count.

Someone tried to throw out a convincing argument once that these were the next Harry Potter and I almost lost it laughing. Really? Funny because I think J.K. Rowling may have had something that Meyer doesn't... two things really...

1. Originality.

2. Creativity.

The books are overburdened with purple prose, banal characters and an over-affinity for "sparkles." I sympathize with those of you who read it after hearing all the hype. It isn't so much that I was disappointed, but more that I was enraged someone like this was getting published and getting credit for being a decent writer.

So basically I'm trying to incite others to come forward and bitch about this load of crap. Either the author, her books, the movie... whatever.

tl;dr: Stephenie Meyer is a stinkyhole. Go look at her website, get some laughs. Don't read her books, sympathize with me and call her names too."

------------------------------ -- The fundamental message of Meyer’s books, I believe, is that of selflessness and moral courage, at least in the first two books. I believe Meyer’s strong Mormon faith (she is a practicing Mormon and a graduate of Brigham Young University) influenced her writing in a good way here, in helping her to craft thoughtful storylines that dealt with complex moral/religious issues.

That said, there is an underlying racism to the books that deeply disturbs me. I believe this is also the influence of Meyer’s faith – a faith I saw in action when I had breakfast with her at the White House as part of the National Book Festival two years ago. (Meyer would not drink coffee, because her religion forbids the use of caffeine, for instance.)

Of primary concern for me is the treatment of Meyer’s main Native American character, Jacob Black. He is presented initially as a sweet, normal teen boy from the Paiute Reservation, but we soon learn that he is a werewolf, and that werewolves are the enemies of vampires. The vampires, at this point in the story, are shown to be European in origin, and as pale as pale can be – and friends to Bella, our human protagonist.

Jacob loves the irresistible Bella, just as Edward does, though he and his kind seem unable to resist their sinister nature the way the white vampires do. In the first two books, Bella is mildly drawn to Jacob (and even kisses him), particularly when Edward seems to lose interest in her. In the final book, Bella must choose between these two boys.

Naturally, she chooses the (white) vampire over the (brown) werewolf.

On the surface, this might seem insignificant. It might even seem to be enlightened for Meyer to include a Native American boy in her novels in the first place.

But you must consider that in the Book of Mormon 2, 5:23, God is said to have placed “the curse of black skin” upon the Lamanites, in orer to make them unattractive to the Nephites. The precise word used is “black,” the name Meyer chose to give her dark-skinned Native American character. The Laminites, meanwhile, are described in the Book of Mormon as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and murdering people, and God punishes all Nephites who marry them by cursing their children with dark skin, too.

Among the leading Laminites mentioned by name in the Book of Mormon is…Jacob.

No author with the skill that Stephenie Meyer possesses does anything in her books by accident. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the deeply Mormon Meyer did not accidentally name her sinful, dark-skinned boy Jacob Black. Nor did she accidentally have him turn out to be the less desirable of the two monstrous boys vying for Bella’s attentions.

I have read much about these books in the media – about how they are the new Harry Potter, about how Meyer is a millionaire many times over because girls and their moms love vampires. Time and again, I have seen mothers quoted in articles about the series, speaking of their love for the books because they are "squeaky clean" - meaning there is no sex in them (or gay people, or minorities other than the Native American werewolves). Just in case you doubt there is a conservative religious message to these books, consider that the hapless human boy who also adores Bella (but doesn't stand a chance, being a total loser) is named Mike...Newton. As in science.

Also of significance: In the movie, as with the book, the most evil of the vampires (the ones who are enemies to the white Edward) is dark African Laurent, whose name is an anagram of the worst of the Laminites described in the Book of Mormon, Lautner. Unlike Edward and the white vampires, he is unable to resist hunting and draining humans.

Interestingly, in this final book, Bella not only ends up spurning the dark-skinned boy. She also ends up married and pregnant - at 18. Squeaky-clean, eh? God forbid Bella have, say, decided to hold off on boys, monstrous and otherwise, until she got, way, her chemical engineering degree. How fascinating that in the "good, clean" books of Stephenie Meyer, racism, teen pregnancy and teen marriage are celebrated, and not a single mainstream reviewer I have read seems to have taken notice.

I held out hope, until this last book, that the gifted Mrs. Meyer might actually do the truly moral thing, and make Native Jacob good, in order to take polite issue with a pathetically misguided Mormon teaching.

Sadly, she did not.

This is disappointing. And, to my mind, dangerous, given the extreme popularity of the books.

As Meyer is compared in every magazine and on every news program to JK Rowling (a writer I believe actually has excellent moral messages, though her books - surprise, surprise - are reviled by the very same parents who adore Meyer), and as we prepare for the first of her vampire novels to hit the big screen as a movie, we must ask ourselves whether we as a nation, and as parents, will continue to embrace an author who uses her formidable talent to present thinly-veiled racist teachings taken from her church. Should we be so quick to reward Meyer for her denigration of a significant portion of her audience by continuing to hail these books as mere "squeaky-clean" vampire stories?

I believe we should not. They are more than that. They are, like the most effective propaganda, wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Werewolves, in fact.

C.S. Lewis was a fucking racist. It goes along with the whole Christian thing.

I've sat through lots of submarine movies and gone to look at a lot of cars, test drive cars and talked about cars til I am blue in the face! I've also gone to lots of boring Mensa events (he's the Mensan, not I) where I am literally always the stupidest person in the room!!

And he's taken me to Journey and Blackmores Night concerts, occasional SCA stuff and even went to see the Sex and the City movie (though he said he was ready to stick a pencil in his eye if it didn't end soon) lol. I did go see the Devil Wears Prada with a gf though.

Fortunately we share lots of interests like Battlestar and Star Trek and liberal politics etc - it would be kinda hard if we had nothing in common!!

B)I thought the book was pretty lame (I wrote a post earlier "I thought the book totally sucked") and will not see this in theater, maybe when it's on tv i will try watching it

I feel vindicated.

As for Twillight - never read it, don't plan to and don't plan to see the movie. But Jesus - live and let live already. Fandom Wars are such bullshit.

Mormons believe the Cainites survived the Flood because Noah's son Ham married a Cainite (allegedly). Those who are descended for this couple are Cainites and are under the "curse" of black skin, according to Mormon theology. This doctrine has been the basis of the racist exclusion of blacks from the Mormon priesthood until as late as 1978.

So how do Mormons try to get out of this racist charge?

Well, they sometimes claim a descendant of Ham could technically be any skin color, not just black. However, the reference to dark skin in the LDS scriptures and leaders's speeches rules out this escape hatch. LDS apologists may also try to point to such ethnic groups as the aborigines of Australia, dark-skinned people who were never under the ban. However, this is simply irrelevant. Africans and African-Americans were considered inferior people up until 1978, and the Mormon church has to answer for it.

Now let's look at some of the details.

Racism in the Book of Mormon

1 Nephi 12:23

"And I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark and loathsome and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

1 Nephi 13:15

". . . and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful . . ."

2 Nephi 5:21

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

2 Nephi 30:6

". . . a white and delightsome people."

This is the reading of Joseph Smith's original 1830 edition. Smith changed the wording "white" to "pure" in the 1840 printing, though until 1982 the word "white" was again in use.

3 Nephi 2:14-15

"And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; and their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites. And their young men and their daughters became exceeding fair.."

According to LDS theology, the Lamanites are the ancestors of the American Indians. In the verses above we see the unbelievable LDS teaching that the skin of the Lamanites would turn white upon conversion!

Jacob 3:8-9

"O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins "

These racist verses persist to this day, though, as mentoned, the word "white" has been replaced with "pure".

As recently as 1960, we read Spencer W. Kimball, later 12th President of the Mormon church, commenting on the Native American Indians as folows:

"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness aref allign from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people....For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised..."(Spencer W. Kimball, Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, pp.922-3)

Racism is Book of Abraman and Book of Moses

The books of Moses and Abraham provide the "scriptural" basis for Mormonism's prohibition of the "priesthood" to blacks.

Moses 6:8

"For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people."

Abraham 1:24

. . . from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

Abraham 1:26

. . . cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood." (referring to Pharaoh)

Racism in the writings of Brigham Young (second Mormon Pesident)

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110)

Lest anyone think Young was here merely giving us his "personal opinion" as some LDS apologists would like to maintain, he also says:

"I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life...If there is any elder here, or any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." (Brigham Young -Journal of Discourses, 16:161).

Elswhere, Young wrote:

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Journal of Discourses (vol 13, page 95),1870)

Again, in 1854 he writes:

"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity" (Journal of Discourses 2:143).

Bill McKeever cites on his "Mormon Research Ministries" website:

"Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (The Way to Perfection, p.101).

and again:

"The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom..." (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.)

The Climbdown of 1978

In June 1978 the First Presidency announced that President Spencer W. Kimball had received a revelation regarding the ordaining of all worthy men to the priesthood. This "revelation," known as Official Declaration 2, can be found in printed form at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants.

In Declaration 2, Spencer Kimball stated that past prophets of the LDS Church had promised that at some time the ban would be lifted and that God, by revelation, had shown him that the day has come. The obvious question to sk is, how could the day have come if Brigham Young could say in (as well as others) Journal of Discourses 2:143 that the time would not come would not come until after the resurrection!

Conclusion

The history of racist doctrine in the Mormon religion continues to haunt this religion to this day. Racist texts in the "Book of Mormon" and other allegedly "sacred" works (Books of Abraham and Moses) continue to expose the racist beliefs of the early Mormon leaders.

The retraction of 1978, allowing colored people to the LDS "Priesthood," leaves untouched the underlying racist theology in Mormon theology. Not only this, but the climbdown contradicts earlier dogmatic statements by LDS president Brigham Young (and others). In any case, it is clear that the racist doctrine of the LDS religion, a religion which presents itself to the world as the "restored gospel of Jesus Christ," will continue to haunt the Mormon church for some time to come.

Emo Zombies!

They fall in love then fall to pieces.

I'm personally not a big fan of the way that vampire fiction has gone over the last twenty years and the realisation that there is more than two or three competing property with these tragic-hero vampire depresses the heck out of me. And I count Buffy/Angel as part of the problem, I'm sure that the same kind of fandom that sustains these Twilight/Tru Blood properties propelled Buffy past it's natural endpoint and kept Angel on-air past it's first season. Buffy was nicely allegorical when it first started but unfortunately at it went on it became less and less interested in the real world and more interested in it's tedious, self-contained vampire/demon universe (emphasis on vampire) to the extent that the vampires stopped being the cannon fodder that they should have been and started getting surrogate souls and extended flashbacks and so on. And yes, I realise that Angel was in Buffy from the first episode as a brooding love interest but I think that they could have turned away from the temptation to build his character up as much as they did. I think it all crystalised for me when I saw the poster up on my roommates wall, the words "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" written in a horrible goth-y font and Angel standing behind Buffy looking all broody and shit. I couldn't understand why the show would be playing up that angle I considered it far and away it's lamest aspect well, obviously, I had severely underestimated the extent to which Buffy/Angel fans were drawn in by all the grim Mills&Boon-style relationship elements. If Buffy had started in 2006 then it's fandom would have a 70-80% overlap with Twilight's.

Harry's article is totally over the top but I can't blame him especially when you've got CHUD decrying AICN as a preserve of frustrated, misogynistic fanboys and then putting up something like this (and stickying it?) on their mainpage. This film looks like ass to me but I don't see why women and gay men can't get to fantasise about Robert Pattinson in peace in this little corner of geekdom that they inhabit. There are no sites where we can gather together and point and laugh about how most nerds like to cream their pants over one-dimesional ass-kicking heroic females dressed in hotpants or skintight PVC. Fuck Kate Beckinsale's face!