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Joss Whedon Shuts Down
DOLLHOUSE For Two Weeks!!

First by erichaislar	Sep 10th, 2008 02:35:19 PM
AND YAY FOR FIREFLY!
Wha? You want a medal? by Orcus	Sep 10th, 2008 02:36:47 PM

Segundo! by Dreadlock Holmes	Sep 10th, 2008 02:36:52 PM

Tres? by Dreadlock Holmes	Sep 10th, 2008 02:37:15 PM

This show might suck! by cupp555	Sep 10th, 2008 02:39:44 PM
Does anybody else fear this show might royally suck? I hope not, but I just get that vibe.
I think this show is doomed from the start by TVguy4566	Sep 10th, 2008 02:44:14 PM
Remember the whole idea of this show came from a lunch between Joss Whedon and Elisa Dushku when she tried to pitch to him to get him come up with a series for her development deal with Fox. It wasn't like Whedon had the idea, created the script, pitched it to the network, and started casting. They just brainstormed ideas of what would be a good concept for a vehicle for Eliza. Typically, when you move forward with a series based solely on a concept and the star, it is tough to come up with a series that works.
Ha! Already it's a piece of crap. by AnnoyYou	Sep 10th, 2008 02:45:11 PM
Face it - Whedon now thinks he's too good for series television and he probably tossed off this derivative junk just to make a few bucks to fund his "genius film vision" (which never materializes). "Fringe" (speaking of derivative junk) probably scared the bejesus out of him and now he has to make his series appreciably "different." I feel sorry for Tahmoh Penikett - he deserves better.
I'm looking forward to this show by ZoeFan	Sep 10th, 2008 02:56:58 PM
That is all.
So when is it supposed to start again? by Cash907	Sep 10th, 2008 03:00:45 PM
January right? I'm sorta excited, but the part of me that has better things to do pretty much doesn't give a shit. They started hyping this show way too early.
Beginning of the end... by Strabo	Sep 10th, 2008 03:07:19 PM
Just cancel it now, Fox, so we don't even have to bother watching it. Cocksuckers.
Always a good sign by luis1210	Sep 10th, 2008 03:07:55 PM
yeah, good omen this one.
This is another bad sign by evil twin	Sep 10th, 2008 03:08:06 PM
It's pretty worrying how much we've already heard about this show being messed around.
Hercules Curse by medicinaluser	Sep 10th, 2008 03:10:21 PM
He loves it long time so its bound to fail in the most humiliating way possible.Hopefully Joss will realise if he is ever to have a show do well again he needs to send enough hookers and blow to pay off Hercy into giving his shows awful buzz and reviews.
before we string Dollhouse up... by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet	Sep 10th, 2008 03:23:23 PM
how many other shows stop production for a few weeks due to some random thing? actors making movies or any number of issues come up. Whedon's stuff is just under the microscope because: A) He's had bad luck with this same studio twice before. B)People love to hate his projects because they are better than anything on TV. C) He's balding.
TVguy4566 by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet	Sep 10th, 2008 03:26:22 PM
if Tarantino and Thurman can get two movies out of "the bride," then Weadon and his team can get several great seasons of above par TV out of this Dollhouse thing.
NEEDS MORE GOATS. by alice 13	Sep 10th, 2008 03:33:27 PM
more shiny goats.
Gatsbys West Egg Omlet by TVguy4566	Sep 10th, 2008 03:53:55 PM
It took nearly a decade for Tarintino to develop Kill Bill (Tarintino and Thurman began developing the idea while shooting Pulp Fiction). Whedon was shooting the pilot within a couple of months of coming up with the idea. I'm sure if Whedon had a decade to develop the story, it would be brilliant. I am not sure that this won't be a rush hatchet job that starting shooting before the idea was fully formed. It did take Whedon about 5 years to get Buffy right.
This is a tough situation by snowpuff	Sep 10th, 2008 03:55:09 PM
I feel for Mr. Whedon. He is a nice guy and tried to do a solid for his friend Dusku. But I don't think his heart was ever in this show and he mostly expected it to flop, so maybe that also makes him a passive aggressive asshole for simply not telling Dushku that he didn't want to do the show.
BTW by TVguy4566	Sep 10th, 2008 03:59:05 PM
I hope Dollhouse is spectacular. I have been a fan of almost everything Whedon has done. I just am not all that confident that this one will fly.
So where is Joss' blog post by punto	Sep 10th, 2008 04:00:45 PM
in which he explains that it's not Fox's fault, Fox loves him, it's all his fault for getting them angry?
I wish more shows would do this by INWOsuxRED	Sep 10th, 2008 04:06:50 PM
fix your scripts, fools! However, established shows can get away with this. For those who weren't willing to jump into a Whendon show for fear of getting hooked on a doomed show, this is just one more thing to spook people out of investing in the early episodes.
Save Dollhouse by phool2056	Sep 10th, 2008 04:17:03 PM
's writers from being quite so stressed out by taking a week off shooting.
Beginning of the end, dude... by spud mcspud	Sep 10th, 2008 04:18:35 PM
The next Fox sci-fi show will actually be cancelled BEFORE IT'S MADE!!! Those fuckers are really ahead of the cancelling curve. now if they form an unholy alliance between themselves (Fox), the Sci-Fi Channel, and Platinum Dunes, all the very worst that the genre has to offer is in one place. Then something can be done about it... hopefully involving lots, and lots, of high explosive. Bottom line: FOX SUCKS. As do the SFC, and Bayhem's horror section. Fuck them all!
FRINGE scared Joss?!?!? by spud mcspud	Sep 10th, 2008 04:23:26 PM
I'm no raving Whedonite - I think he's okay-to-good, occasionally awesome - but let's be honest, I don't think FRINGE is going to trouble Whedon. Or Chris Carter. Or anyone. A potentially good concept is wasted with Joshua "Firewood" Jackson in there doing his very woodiest, and frankly it think's it's cooler than it is - hence all the distractingly over-stylised shite like the floating, 3-D captions, obviously there to distract you from the patchy plot and dodgy acting. FRINGE fans, do yourselves a favour - go get hold of the GLOBAL FREQUENCY pilot (don't ask me how, by then you'll know how) and watch some decent high-concept SF TV. Then ring up the WB and give them shit about how the next THE X-FILES could possibly get cancelled when shit like FRINGE is still with us. Fucksticks.
PS It's ELIZA F-ING DUSHKU!!! by spud mcspud	Sep 10th, 2008 04:25:32 PM
She can stand there dancing like Napoleon Dynamite for all I care. I am there with bells on.
Whedon's "genius film vision" by punto	Sep 10th, 2008 04:30:50 PM
you mean his youtube videos?
Poor Dollhouse by SUPERJIM	Sep 10th, 2008 04:47:29 PM
I fear that your run will be short lived. 2 major fuck about before the first episode has even aired? I would be sending my agent to find me work if I was Eliza Duschku (or however you spell her stupid fucking name). Speaking of which, an ex colleague has a boyfriend named Bond, his first name, now THAT is a cool name, Eliza.
LOL @ Punto by medicinaluser	Sep 10th, 2008 05:00:31 PM
Am glad this hack will get another bruising to his already inflated ego.I dont think it will do much good he is basically the new Shatner with his raging fanboys who get semi's just being in his presence but is generally despised by those who have worked for/with him.Oh and 2 weeks isnt enough time for him to pilfer enough ideas of others to save this show.
this show needs more cowbell by crazybubba	Sep 10th, 2008 05:17:19 PM

Just bring back Firefly you idiots by jimmy_009	Sep 10th, 2008 05:25:18 PM
You'll greenlight another Joss Whedon show, but won't bring back Firefly, the show that everyone loves? The show that's even bigger now that it's been canceled and hit DVD? The show that Joss Whedon himself wants back on air? What the fuck is wrong with TV executives?
Here we go again by jdb1972	Sep 10th, 2008 05:25:55 PM
Why do I have a feeling that Fox wants him to turn Dollhouse from an intriguing and original concept into something dumb like a buddy-cop procedural?
So it begins. by kravmaguffin	Sep 10th, 2008 05:26:07 PM
FOX: "Don't worry Joss baby I wont cum in your mouth" JOSS: "You mean again right"
Joss isn't doing Dushku a favor by A for Aristocrat	Sep 10th, 2008 05:26:36 PM
The man hasn't been exactly setting the world on fire lately. Serenity bombed, Wonder Woman collapsed, he got a curtousy meet for Batman, and Goners has been in development for years. He is like Star Trek, he is living off his old glory. He can be very successful in comics and the internet because he has enough lifer fans to buy his product. On a big scale however, like movies and network television the numbers aren't there like they once were. Joss needs Dollhouse to be a hit so he can get back some credit with Hollywood so he can do the projects he is passionate about.
"original concept" by A for Aristocrat	Sep 10th, 2008 05:31:11 PM
When has Joss ever deviated from "tiny girl can really fight!"
Take your time... by Larry of Arabia	Sep 10th, 2008 05:33:07 PM
do it right.
Big DVD Dale?!? by DirkBelig	Sep 10th, 2008 05:33:45 PM
Proofreading is fundamental!
Trouble by NudeandAroused	Sep 10th, 2008 05:38:51 PM
I can't think that shutting down production is all that good.
The most anticipated show new show by zooch	Sep 10th, 2008 06:00:27 PM
You better not FUCK this up Fox!After the slight dissapointment that was Fringe, although I'm hoping it gets better.
I Said This On Whedonesque.com Under Heavy Attacks by Media Messiah	Sep 10th, 2008 06:02:05 PM
I wrote, under another name, that I saw a scene that showed Eliza seemingly out of sorts and not emoting properly as an actor. This was back in June. I said something was wrong with her acting and the direction due to Joss not clamping down on Eliza and pushing for a better performance out of her, as he seemed to be unwilling to direct her? She appeared like a high school actor doing a stage play among professionals??? Don't get me wrong, I love Joss, I am a fan and a student of his, and I like Eliza, she did great work on Buffy, but she appears to have gotten lazy. That's what happens when you are dating a guy who Fox loves, and just gave 100 million dollars. Under those circumstances, you'd become lazy too!!! Joss should alter the concept of the show, as I suggested months ago, to make this show and its concept easier to follow...just change the setting of the Dollhouse and its mission to a uni-sex college dorm...where the students in the dorm are young people who have been pre-programmed to be unwitting spies, complete with false identities...a fact, all unknown to them. Everything about these people, from their ever changing spying personas to their perceived college lives, and their personal and family lives a carefully managed sham. One of the programmable spies begins to get her memory back and starts to realize her whole life is a lie and now she is out to take down the organization, the Dollhouse, from the inside out. That is a much better and streamlined concept. I'm open to selling it to the studio. I really need the money for a honestly good cause!!! Buy me a house and give me some pocket change, the cost of an 30 second ad on Fox, and you can have it, lock, stock and barrel!!!
But what about Kath and Kim? by The Winged Doucheman	Sep 10th, 2008 06:48:37 PM
That's the real player in this season's fall line-up.
Kath & Kim, Hollowmen & Aussie TV by Amy Chasing	Sep 10th, 2008 07:01:11 PM
is kinda dull. Even Paul McDermott (one of the original Doug Anthony Allstars) seems to look tired & annoyed these days. I've tried watching Kath & Kim but found it just a bit too boring, and Hollowmen just isn't as interesting, clever or witty as shows like Frontline or The Games before it. And (and I don't use the word "and" at the start of a sentence lightly) Australian TV just seems to have become a string of home-improvement/holiday/reali ty/cop/hospital shows which all have related product promotions. Oh, and Packed To The Rafters is just trying to be Seachange, but so was Grass Is Greener and its ilk. So in short, bring on more interesting sci-fi, no matter where it comes from. 'Cause we're starving for entertainment locally.
Media Messiah by medicinaluser	Sep 10th, 2008 07:15:08 PM
Doubting the Whedon...can it really be so? You will never get anywhere near being on his payroll if you are openly willing to speak in such a blasphemous manner regarding one of his precious shows.I salute you though and your idea sounds much better than the crap Eliza came up with.I actually think with the power Eli seems to think she wields at Fox for your stated reasons perhaps Joss has finally found someone willing to stand upto him and tell exactly where he can stick his "Don't you know who I am...I created Buffy you cunts" spheel and go back to the busom of his fanboys.
I like Whedon by kitano0	Sep 10th, 2008 07:31:07 PM
But sometimes, gathering from his comments,I think he is kinda lazy and kinda cheap...I love Buffy, but some of it looks incredibly cheap. Besides, he would rather play music and write comics...not a bad life
Thanks Medicinaluser, But I Have To Try!!! by Media Messiah	Sep 10th, 2008 07:31:59 PM
Thanks, I'm glad you like my re-write on Whedon's concept...and yes I feared upsetting him and I am not trying to stand on anyone's shoes or embarrass anybody. I got that feeling on Whedonesque.com that they thought that, at least the fans and those who run that site. They don't like individual thought over there: Strange as that is what Joss was trying to encourage with Serenity and Firefly??? They thought that I was attacking Joss, a man who I respect and hold as a writing instructor of a sort, and from a far. Normally, I would say nothing about somebody else's work other than, I like it, or I don't, but that good cause that I mentioned in my last post, forces me to, it motivates me to try, as it would change a certain good person's life for the better if I somehow manage to make a sale.
Is he making it a musical? by SnowDogs	Sep 10th, 2008 07:38:46 PM
Because gosh, that makes a bad idea great.
Cavement Versus Astronauts by RokurGepta	Sep 10th, 2008 08:23:10 PM
who would win?
You idiots... by GeekySciFiAnimeFreak	Sep 10th, 2008 08:31:06 PM
.. Joss Whedon fixing a problem isn't a bad sign. It's a good sign.
Not blindly... by GeekySciFiAnimeFreak	Sep 10th, 2008 09:09:36 PM
Confidently. Also, what proof do you have that he will lead anyone into suckiness?
These people put all their effort into getting a greenlight. by kabong	Sep 10th, 2008 09:52:52 PM
After that, they've got nothing but copying from other shows or repeating themselves if they ever did do something good. After fast-forwarding through much of "Fringe," I'm not expecting much from "Dollhouse." But Joss and Jar-Jar will get greenlights for next year's flops.
Bad moon rising. by Stereotypical Evil Archer	Sep 10th, 2008 09:56:10 PM

GET READY!! by TheTaf	Sep 10th, 2008 10:14:44 PM
All you Whedon Haters, coz your gna eat your words come January!!
Besides Angel I think, Joss always struggled to get his shows st by torpor_haze	Sep 10th, 2008 10:31:43 PM
Angel was easy for him because he didn't care for it at first. It took him 12 episodes to move Buffy from "Three's Company" to something coherent and with lots of potential. Firefly is self-explanatory. Also, someone said that Buffy looked cheap at times production wise. At times I thought the same but didn't bother me much because Buffy always felt more like a stage production than a television show. If you know the story of Joss's reluctance on letterboxing Buffy episodes that might explain what he was going for. Lastly, I see a lot of discussion on Whedon's career track. I think the only person who's not worried is him. He's got his money,his pet projects,some celebrity and his privacy. And those that have a problem with his product not being "good," I think you meant accessible (i.e. same shit you see everyday, i.e. remakes). I'll see you in the talkback where you bitch about hollywood running out of ideas and raping your childhoods.
Lost is the exception... by badboymason	Sep 10th, 2008 10:35:08 PM
Apart from that, TV shows really have to be one-sentence pitches to make it, anything more complicated and either mainstream audiences or execs will not "get it', no matter how well made. 24 - Kiefer Sutherland fights terrorists in real-time: SUCCESS. Heroes - Real people with super powers: SUCCESS. Buffy - hot girl fights vampires: SUCCESS. Dollhouse: a bunch of people are given different memories for different missions: erm... what? And I'm a big Buffy/Angel/Firefly fan. I just think this is doomed from the start. Damn studio contracts, Dushku/Whedon should have done the Bionic Woman series...
badboymasson... by torpor_haze	Sep 10th, 2008 10:41:56 PM
Ironically, if you take a piece from each of those shows, you get DOLLHOUSE.
May I ask why Lost is the exception? by Amy Chasing	Sep 10th, 2008 10:58:09 PM
Seems a pretty straight forward show to me, ie. passenger plane crashes onto island. Well it's about as descriptive of the show as your Buffy and Heroes synopsis. :)
Joss doesnt need Dollhouse by A for Aristocrat	Sep 10th, 2008 11:40:10 PM
On paper Joss should be the happiest man on earth. He is rich, he has worshippers that will sing praises in his ears until the day he dies, and he had the opportunity to have three shows on television to vent his opinions through. The only trap he could fall into is believing his own hype. I cant see him assuming all the responsibilities of a television show just to make Dushku happy. He just seems to have a need for attention even if it comes down to internet shows or comics. Now if its from an artistic need to express himself that is fine but if it is because he feels he should have the respect and fame of someone like Speilberg then he will be miserable no matter how good his life is. So basically, I hope he is doing Dollhouse for the right reasons.
Whedon gotta eat by ulcer	Sep 11th, 2008 12:04:59 AM
not true, Whedon does need this series. Buffy, Angle, those are very minor hit on cable. The DVD sales all go to the companies. These writer/producers/directors get just enough money to get in a certain lifestyle that they need to keep working to be able to afford. It's a trap.
Media Messiah by punto	Sep 11th, 2008 12:58:55 AM
I thought that was the premise already? A bunch of people who get reprogrammed for missions and one of them starts to get her memory back. Except it wasn't unisex. Isn't it?
Whedon should have done a Faith series by Toby___Wong	Sep 11th, 2008 02:14:14 AM
I will watch Dollhouse. I mean, how can you not watch it with Dushku and Acker ? I have the feeling it will suck big time, though. It would have been better if he would go for a Faith series with Spike and Illyria. Now that would really rock. It's still not too late. And so what if Marsters is getting too old for Spike ? Think up a curse in which vampires age and there will be no problem. But, if Dollhouse becomes good Whedon will be 4 on 4 with tv shows.
H Punto...You Are Right, But I Added New Material by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 02:29:31 AM
I changed the characters into spies and intelligence agents. The uni-sex college dorm, the college campus...the student/college life angle, the secret agent angle, the false families (hired agents), etc., are all mine, none appear in Whedon's show as it currently is. You see, in my writing, these people, the programmable leads, actually do have active lives. In Mr. Whedon's version, they are basically, and largely unaware 5 year old children, in terms of mental maturity and development, until they are programmed for a mission, and they are not agents, BTW. They are also cut-off from the outside world, save for the Dollhouse, a secret organization, one which I think is more than a bit claustrophobic in terms of concept. What I have written in my outline, opens things-up making the proceedings more like Joe-90 meets Alias. The spy angle opens up many great story possibilies, for rich character development and arcs therein. As university students, the characters would have set personas and personalities that you can count on seeing and getting to know, week to week, just like your group of friends in school, or at work-- your social group: everything would appear to be normal...but what these characters won't know and we, the audience will, is that their lives are a sham, and during certain times of the day or night, or during weekends, instead of going to part time jobs, on dates, certain parties, or vacations, the typical college student's life, they are instead being reprogrammed and sent on spy and assassination missions. When these agents return, they are left unaware of what occured and proceed with their normal lives, or at least, ones they think are true and normal. You see, I have incorporated the best of Whedon's premise with my own, something that I think makes the story and the characters more assessible to audiences. The original concept as it is, is much too cryptic of a story, as the programmable persons really have no set missions other than to play the role of hired playthings for private individuals and corporations, etc., sort of like human props at Fantasy Island, to be used for sex, romance, schemes, and so on, and so forth??? It's like the ultimate Fantasy Football Game, where you can hire and befriend the players, but you can also rent the cheerleaders, date them, and sleep with them and their minds are erased afterward. At least that is how the premise has been reported, and that is rather confusing when you are dealing with brand new personalities from week to week in the form of the main characters, with no set personalities of their own, even false ones, for us, the audience to relate to, or fall in love with, or to like. There is only so much you can take of deprogrammed adults acting like children between being reprogrammed, from week to week, hence, the reason for my re-write of the premise for the show...to clear-up the story and get the audience right into the premise without any unnecessary exposition and the resulting confusion.
That's "Hi Punto"...Sorry For The Typo by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 02:31:14 AM

Media Messiah by SUPERJIM	Sep 11th, 2008 03:54:42 AM
But, in the premise of Dollhouse, doesn't Echo (is that her name) gradually start to show her own personality? She will then start to show some of the character traits that you speak of, she will have a character of her own, built up over time and we will learn of her circumstances which lead her to join this programme in the first place. No doubt some sinister past will be slowly revealed. Much more intriguing than knowing all about the character from the start in my opinion.
this show is all about by dr.bulber	Sep 11th, 2008 04:00:22 AM
taking a 2 week break to correct things in life. so there you have it. its suppose to be that way.
I'll watch by Cobbio	Sep 11th, 2008 07:15:54 AM
After the head-shakingly lifeless "Fringe" pilot, I'm really looking forward to anything snappy that Whedon has to offer. Creating characters is something he's good at, unlike the writer(s) of the "Fringe" pilot. God, that was disappointing. Take your time, Joss. Get it right. I'll watch when it airs.
Midseason? Shit, no wonder its not in Fall Previews by Drath	Sep 11th, 2008 07:32:33 AM
Man that sucks right there because the Fall looks so spare and this was one of the three shows I had some interest in. Don't know what to think of the development issues they seem to be having (don't know exactly what they are, just that they exist). On the positive they're making it better, but on the negative someone has doubts about what's there and this doesn't say the issues are fixed, just that there's a problem that they are trying to fix. All I know is, someone in FOX has to support this show in order for it to survive. From that comes advertising and from that even total shit like Raising the Bar can have a strong premiere. And that seems to be the foot in the door now. Shows don't get to build an audience anymore. When will the industry change? When will it get so awful that it has no choice? I guess the threshold is different. When a show gets big ratings because of Mark Paul Gosselar's hair, I think we've sunk pretty low myself. Obviously other people in the TV viewing community need it to get worse.
Punto by A for Aristocrat	Sep 11th, 2008 08:31:26 AM
I just can't believe Whedon is strapped for cash. He started Buffy with a 20 million dollar deal. That doesn't even take in to consideration his movie money and script deals. Even without that his comics are some of the most popular in the industry and many people make a good living on that alone. Hell, he could even do what the trek actors did and live off conventions. Unless he really mismanaged his money he is either doing Dollhouse because he needs to tell stories or he wants some of the old glory back.
"due to scripting concerns" by ZeroCorpse	Sep 11th, 2008 09:11:21 AM
Translation: He had to go find some more comic books to rip off.
I'm sure it'll be good. by _Maltheus_	Sep 11th, 2008 09:18:27 AM
But I do worry about Dushku. Yeah, she's hot, but I never thought she'd make a good lead in any show (not even a Faith-based show). It seems like Joss is giving a very difficult role to an actor who's probably not up to it. And while I love Amy Acker, I didn't like hearing that she's some senior scientist. She's a little girl for crying out loud. And the last time she headed a lab, she got betrayed and turned into Illyria, so not exactly a great track record there. All that being said, Joss hasn't given me any reason to doubt his TV talents (couldn't care less about his movie efforts) and I can't wait for this one (unlike Fringe which I thought would be pretty much like it was).
Joss Is God! by What The Duck	Sep 11th, 2008 09:57:03 AM
I liking hearing things like this. That means Joss is really trying to make this a great show. When he put's full effort into something it comes out pure magic. It also seems Fox is allowing him to do what he want's, so it's seems they are behind him on this unlike Firefly!
When Fox dumps this, Elisa can do the inevitable by skimn	Sep 11th, 2008 11:00:37 AM
Wrong Turn 3: Even Wrongier
Re: by Cobbio	Sep 11th, 2008 11:28:42 AM
That's a good point about Dushku, _Maltheus_. I think she's hot too, and did a great job as a tough supporting character on "Buffy," but on "Dollhouse" she'll need to show me she can carry the lead role. I'm not saying she can't do it, just that based on her track record, I not sure how well she'll do. Sarah Michelle Gellar, whether you like her or not, carried "Buffy" as a powerful and sympathetic central character. It's what made the show work. I'm excited to see if Dushku can pull it off.
Fuck Whedon by thedarklinglord	Sep 11th, 2008 12:59:49 PM
The fact that he didn't find a way to keep Firefly going (sorry, but one movie doesn't count) and has all but abandoned it and the fans, I have no interest in anything else he does. Seriously, with all the Direct-to-Video shit that gets pumped out and is total shit, not because of budget constraints but because some dumbass is doing the writing, you're telling me he couldn't have found a way to finance yearly mini seasons for Firefly? Or bi-yearly movies? Maybe nothing as expensive and lavish in special effects as Serenity, but something like 4- to 6-episode blocks? There had to be a way.
Yup, I knew it. by thewoodpecker	Sep 11th, 2008 01:16:47 PM
While I believe the premise is a valid one, Whedon's tone is the problem. In Firefly it was the Western dress and accents, and who knows what has Fox execs' undies in a bunch this time. I was hoping the show would last a few episodes, but I wonder if this will even make it to the screen.
Cant blame Whedon for Firefly by A for Aristocrat	Sep 11th, 2008 02:01:59 PM
I am by no means a Whedon zealot but he has tried everything in his power to keep Buffy, Angel, and Firefly going. He tried animated shows, DTV movies, specials, musicals, and has only been able to keep them alive in comics. The truth is all of his series were on life support from day one. Buffy almost got cancelled during season 5. Angel and Firefly did get cancelled. He used every bit of credit he had to get Serenity produced and that failure backfired big time. Whedon has a very rabid fan base but it is small. If there was money to be made on Buffy and Firefly we would have had new product by now. It's not Whedons fault.
Fuck Whedon? FUCK YOU! by What The Duck	Sep 11th, 2008 03:13:55 PM
Thedarklinglord u have no idea what you are talking about! Whedon tried everything to keep Firefly going. also for a show to get a full length movie is a big fuckin deal. It shows how hard he worked to least give us fans some closure. He also shopped the show around but nobody wanted it. Could have been a great show. It pisses me off to see shit like BSG even make it past three seasons. if you want to rag on the show fine but dont question Whedon heart. If any creator cares what his fans think it's him. That's we have Buffy, Angel, And Firefly in comic form. His material is so good and so well thought out that it will endure in many diffrent forms forever.
Hey Media Messiah by KirkLazarus	Sep 11th, 2008 03:21:42 PM
Have you ever watched a little show called "Alias?" College campus? Check. Spies and agents? Check. The protagonist taking down the organization that she works for? Check. Sure, your ideas could work...but they have all been done before. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way but it comes off as a blatant copy.
WTF is Dollhouse? by Capt. Murphy	Sep 11th, 2008 03:38:28 PM
Nevermind, I don't want to know. Actually if there's a vampire or spaceship, tell me, otherwise, spare me. This sounds like some J.J. Abrahm's pre-Alias shit, I haven't read anything about Dollhouse, because it sounds like some sort of show about washed up Playboy models, no, scratch that, Hustler models running a brothel in the Nevada desert. I saw that documentary on HBO, and that girl had some fucked up teeth.
SUPERJIM, You Are Correct...But... by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 03:52:29 PM
Audiences a fickle and if you don't get them right away, they tend to not stay with a show. Therefore, I find it best to hit them with a concept that is easily understood and then hit them with hidden twisted along the way, as the story unfolds. At present, all we will be getting is small hints as to Echo recalling somethings, and realizing that something is wrong. Well, if this was a movie, they'd handle that in 20 or 30 minutes before kick starting the story and introducing us to revelations and the character to his or her quest. You can't afford to drag things out in a tv series when people channel surf so much. You have to move like a movie with the pilot, and perhaps the first 6 to 10 episodes, so the audience is in on the joke, or at least, they think they are, and that's when you sucker punch them with all kinds of twists. Let me ask you something? You, as a male, who would you relate to more(???), A woman who seems to be a normal fun loving girl, or a lady who is in a fog of being the mental maturity of a 5 year old, with the occasional smattering of conscious mature thought??? Well, the problem for the show is that Echo is like River in Firefly, a show that was slow to introduce the hidden secret about River, and her personality, a relatable personality, the reason why it had trouble finding an audience. Now, if the first episode had been similar to Serenity, its film version, revealing both sides of River, that being both her conscious persona, and the hidden one, the psychic super soldier...it would have grabbed people right off the bat...with plenty of room to explore the character without the slow burn development of the character. It would have allowed us to jump right into things just like Buffy. Speaking of Buffy...let's look at the show. Within the first 20 minutes of the pilot, you knew Buffy, and whether you could relate to her, both the 16 year old girl trying to become a woman, and her alter ego, the Vampire Slayer. You knew her set mission and her friends and enemies...and either you loved it, liked it, didn't care for it, or you hated it, but you weren't confused at to who was whom. However with Echo, we'll get a 5 year old child, mentally speaking, that we are supposed to relate to...and then when she is programmed with new personalities each week, sometimes several times in an episode, she will be like a Schizophrenic with no real set persona for the audience to grasp onto, save for the 5 year old blank personality who often has hints that something isn't quite right, and that can be a frustration for viewers...and that is the flaw in the series. I, however, wrote my outline to adjust for that, and eliminate, and overcome that apparent flaw. Imagine if you come back a little late from the bathroom after a commercial break, or miss a minute or two while channel surfing, or miss an episode or two, you might be lost as to who's who, when and why they are, in terms of changing personalities, you see, with no real flushed-out main persona for the lead character, one which must act as an entry point character for the audience to vicariously live through and relate to, without it, you will lose them???
Dushku by Gislef_crow	Sep 11th, 2008 04:17:37 PM
The question is, quite bluntly, does she have the range to play a character who has different personalities imprinted on her? On Buffy/Angel she played a tough rebellious girl with an attitude, with a heart of tarnished gold. On Tru Calling, she played a tough rebellious girl. In Wrong Turn and True Lies she played a tough rebellious girl... well, you get the idea. I'm sure I'm overlooking a minor role or three, but you don't carry show on your versatility of 15-minute walking on parts. She's perfectly good at what she has done, but she needs to do a whole lot more in Dollhouse. Amy Acker has the range. Dushku...?
KirkLazarus--Right, But, There is A Big But... by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 04:25:11 PM
You are right, but how many times have we seen versions of Batman and Superman??? Spiderman is designed to be an Amalgam of the two, with a bit of Super Boy thrown in for good measure...a hero with a secret identity (Batman/Superman) who masks his face (Batman), works for a newspaper with a hard editor (Superman), his love interest, Mary Jane, doesn't know he's the hero (Lois Lane), he is a hero because he is seeking revenge (Batman), has gadgets (the Web shooters...like the harpoon lines that Batman swings from) and super strength (Superman). A blue and red costume (Superman). He's attending school and lives with elderly people who are his Father and Mother figures (Super Boy). My point is, every medium has its similarities. Chuck has college life, but nobody is calling it a Alias rip-off...and Sydney and her schooling was never really shown on Alias, save for casual glances and vague mentions, and none of the action in the show happened there, ever, that I recall. Sydney didn't live on campus, she had her own apartment. My characters live in a Uni-Sex dorm on campus. She, Sydney, was in...and out of the college and they just dropped any mention of college, it was an aside to the story, like the side mention that somebody in a script works at a coffee bar. Should then all characters in a similar genre, say a romance film, be stricken from working at a coffee bar or a cafe??? In my outline, the college campus is the center of the action, unlike Alias,...and the dorm is the secret base, a cover building for the operation. The twist is that Joss gave us, which is straight from Joe 90, a programmable person who can take on any action/skill/language/knowledg e, or persona, the difference is, his character has no memory of it...which is directly from Bourne Identity and even another book that My Own Enemy ripped-off and even A Kiss Goodnight, I think the Sam Jackson movie is called. But regardless if they make it a college campus, or some other setting, and I have some nice ideas on alternate settings, my point about a fully realized characters out living their so called normal lives, not knowing they are secretly being co-opted to perform dangerous missions would be intriguing to see.
Media Messiah - Gislef_Crow by medicinaluser	Sep 11th, 2008 04:32:17 PM
MM you actually seem to understand well the reasons JW's latest turdfest is going to bomb and frankly last minute revisions will not save this show so maybe we can have it reimagined in a few years using your outline instead. GC YES!!! Amy Acker would have been a much better choice than Dushku who like you say is pretty much a one trick pony in terms of acting, hmm maybe that is why the central personailty will be a blank slate (anyone could do that) and the others will simply be varying degrees of rebel girly anger. On a final note how the fuck do I do spaces in tb thanking you please muchly.
Buffy season 8 is teh suck by lord_zedd	Sep 11th, 2008 05:06:44 PM
Yet again, he's putting his most popular creation low on the priority list just to try and make another show work for Fox that will probably last for less than a season. It's really showing now more than ever. Every issue of season 8 features more frustratingly over the top un-buffylike stunts that would have caused riots if pulled on the show itself. The current Fray arc in particular is both boring and whack all at once. Whedon has stated that he will probably write only one more storyline for this season before the end of it, which is in like...what...20 more issues? And when the proposed season 9 starts, he won't be involved outside of an executive producer role. Way to milk it, buddy.
Mediah Messiah by Paul Bucciarelli	Sep 11th, 2008 05:34:28 PM
How exactly are you a student of Whedon's? By the way, Spider-Man does fight crime as a means for purposes of revenge. If you don't know Spidey's very simple, basic raisone d'etre by now then I'm afraid you need to pay more attention.
by Paul Bucciarelli	Sep 11th, 2008 05:35:28 PM
that's DOES NOT fight crime as a means for revenge.
Fair enough, MM by KirkLazarus	Sep 11th, 2008 07:29:03 PM
There were just so many similarities between your brief explanation and "Alias" that I immediately made the connection. The bottom line is that Whedon's show might be great, and your tweaked version sounds interesting as well. I wish I could watch a few episodes of each.
Paul Bucciarelli by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:07:01 PM
I was simply speaking of his, Spiderman's, internal motivations which stem from Uncle Ben dying and his anger over failing to prevent it, by failing to grab the criminal who was responsible, before the crime had even taken place. Parker saw him commit another crime just minutes earlier, but failed to stop him, the criminal, when he, Parker, had the chance. Batman has a similar motive and that comes in the form of the fact that he was a little boy who watched powerlessly as his parents were killed. Now, he wants revenge, and vengence, not just for his parents or himself, but for other past and potential victims of present criminal actions. The characters, and their motivations are the same, or similar enough in that regard, something that Stan Lee clearly intentionally went for when he created Spiderman.
Medicinaluser: How To Make The Spaces by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:20:23 PM
You write a paragraph or sentence...title or whatever, and when you want to create the spaces or page breaks, just write < > < > and type in the initials BR BR inside each of the two separate triangles. Make sure that either side of the opposing triangles in each of the two groupings are touching the upper case B and the upper case R...and also, when you have finished...make certain that both tips of the two separate groups triangles are touching each other from the inside area or somethign like this >< ...another example of the inside line up od symbols would be R>.
Amended: Medicinaluser: How To Make The Spaces by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:28:12 PM
You write a paragraph or sentence...title or whatever, and when you want to create the spaces or page breaks, just write < > < > and type in the initials BR BR inside each of the two separate triangles. Make sure that either side of the opposing triangles in each of the two groupings are touching the upper case B and the upper case R...and also, when you have finished...make certain that both tips of the two separate groups triangles are touching each other from the inside area or something like this >< ...another example of the inside line up of symbols would be R> and
Well, I Tried 2 Give A More In Depth Example... by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:30:52 PM
...but it keeps turning into a page break, but I think you can get it by following what I wrote in my first two sentences.
KirkLazarus by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:32:45 PM
Thanks, I wish I could be on Mutant Enemy Productions' (Joss Whedon's Company) writing staff, it would be fun.
A Student Of Whedon by Media Messiah	Sep 11th, 2008 08:39:44 PM
I am a student of Joss' metaphorically speaking, I mean. From watching his work, I actually had a big breakthrough in terms of learning how to write dialogue and story arcs...whole scripts. The man is like, well, if Rod Serling had a Grandson, or Son, who was really an avid fan of his. Joss learned a lot from Serling, I can tell, as I did, by watching via example. Serling and Whedon sort of helped me learn through example of their work, to understand how to write!!!
Media Messiah by Paul Bucciarelli	Sep 11th, 2008 08:43:10 PM
You don't understand the character of Spider-Man. He's motivated by guilt and responsibility. Not anger. Not Revenge. Also, i asked you about being a student of Whedon's. What exactly do you mean?
Media Messiah by medicinaluser	Sep 11th, 2008 08:47:52 PM
Yeh I Do .... at least I think so.
6 pr 7 episodes ? by Miyamoto_Musashi	Sep 11th, 2008 10:55:03 PM
How long will it last
Paul Bucciarelli by Media Messiah	Sep 12th, 2008 01:21:27 AM
Whedon often says that he studies at someone's throne...a particular writer of fimmaker he admires and learns from from afar by reading their work or watching their film's, etc. In that same way, I have studied Whedon. Watch "Objects In Space" the last episode of Firefly, it is just genius...or "The Body" or "Once More With Feeling" from Buffy...or even "Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog", the guy just know how to move people emotionally through written dialogue, character action, or none action, or sudden and unexpected amoral of immoral acts...and the same is true of the sucker punch twists that he pulls like when secretly and quietly Giles smothered Glory's brother in the last episode of Buffy that aired on the WB. That was wicked, and coolie vicious. Whedon, by example of his works, taught me that the old belief that there are only 5 or 6 orignal stories, and the rest are just thinly disguised versions of the same themes, you know, Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back...or The hero's journey, etc., is not necessarily true, in regard to simply giving us more of the same, or don't have to be. Well, what i am trying to say is, you can alter any of these stories, and make them completely original by changing the ending from the expected, when you do that, you can change the meaning of the whole trek. What you saw, was not what you saw. You can change the first standard story to Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy meets guy...and girl meets girl. Or the second standard story arc: Boy goes on a hero's journey, wins fortune...the girl, approval of crowds and the Kingdom. Boy turns out to be an unrevealed villain. Only the audience knows the end twist. To the rest of the character cast, he is thought to be a saint. The perspective of an unrevealed evil, the wolf among sheep...that is a scary prospect to conclude a movie with a happy ending on this, the moment when you unwittingly allow the devil into your home, as a smiling friend and conquering hero, but don't know it. This changes the standard hero's journey. Now with the Star Wars prequels, we knew Anakin would go bad, as we were told that ahead of time, and his evil and treachery was revealed to all in the end, as well...we knew of his later redemption. But again, my twist on this similar material, would be not to reveal the hero's true nature, that of the real villain, other than to the audience. There will be no redemption, and no reveal of this persons evil that his adoring supporters will ever know about, or can act on. I learned this kind of writing from Serling and Whedon much like a kid might learn how to play guitar by listening to Slash. Sometimes if you love something enough, with great study, you can learn how to do it, or something worthy, in the same respect.
edicinaluser by Media Messiah	Sep 12th, 2008 01:22:16 AM

Medicinaluser: Glad I Explained that Right by Media Messiah	Sep 12th, 2008 01:24:38 AM
I actually stumpled upon it once when I pasted some news text on AICN.com a few months ago.
Media Messiah: I like her revamped Dollhouse idea by Jim Jam Bongs	Sep 12th, 2008 02:34:59 AM
If I was a network creative executive, I'd give you a listen. Actually, your idea is unique enough from Dollhouse that you could try developing it yourself (under a different title, of course) and submit it to TV scriptwriting competitions. Basically, your pitch is: It's Bourne Identity set in college with a coed group of Jason Bournes.
"her" = "your" by Jim Jam Bongs	Sep 12th, 2008 02:36:02 AM
typo late at night.
Hey, Jim Jam Bongs: You Would Be A Great Exec!!! by Media Messiah	Sep 12th, 2008 03:30:02 AM
Thank you for you kindness. I needed to hear that at this time in my life. It would be nice if some Fox execs contacted me because I would sell them the idea right away!!! Just for a house, or the cost of a 30 second primetime ad for any advertiser they deal with from day to day, and some pocket change. I really need the house/money for a good and selfless reason. Anyway, you really described my concept better than I did: "It's Bourne Identity set in college with a coed group of Jason Bournes.", you said, and that is exactly it in a nutshell, hence the reason I said you would be a great exec!!! You really knew how to quickly encapsulate my pitch in a exacting, exciting, and very impressive manner. Jason Bourne: That is what The Dollhouse should be, an inside look at the kind of organization that produced Jason Bourne (Echo in this case) and many others like him (her), as they are first put into action, and in harms' way, allowing us insight on the hows and whys of it all, and who these people, these unwitting agents are, or who they may falsely think they are? I think they, Fox, et al, would have a major hit on their hands if they went that route.
Thanks, maybe someday I will be an exec. :-] by Jim Jam Bongs	Sep 12th, 2008 03:27:50 PM
I work peripherally in the biz (in client research for TV ad buys). Seriously, I would recommend you simply come up with an original title for your idea. (Let's be honest, everyone: the name "Dollhouse" kind of sucks anyway -- it's not a cool enough title to sell to the general TV viewing audience, and most males will think it's the title for a Gossip Girl "chick show".) Then develop a pilot script, a character bible, and an episode list describing the first 13 episodes. Then check out scriptapalooza.tv (TV scriptwriting contest) and inktip.com (an online selling market to production companies). Those are the two sites I recommend the most to anyone trying to break into the TV writing biz with an original idea. (Be careful of other sites... most don't have much pull or influence in the business, especially the various film festivals.) Good luck.
Thanks Jim Jam Bongs!!! by Media Messiah	Sep 12th, 2008 05:28:39 PM
I will look those up and contact them. And thank you very much for your help. I'm writing a script right now on something else. Should be a couple of months before I'm finished as I just started it about a week ago. I agree with you about the title Dollhouse, that's an okay name for the sleeper agent operation within the show, but I had a better title that is more descriptive of the proceedings. It is something similar to the comic book title, "Beautiful Killer" (a book that was optioned for a movie a few years go but no one has done anything with it). But since Fox and company aren't calling, I'll kept it for myself and use it on another project I have always wanted to write.
Lost is awesome now.... by TheWaqman	Sep 15th, 2008 12:07:55 PM
speaking of shows with now cult fanbases, Lost has definitely progressed greatly. The first season was excellent. The second was shite. The third was pretty good. And the fourth was very good. And with two seasons to go if they keep up the momentum it will be remembered. And the best thing is that JJ Abrams isn't involved anymore. Oh yeah I forgot why I came to this thread. JJ Abrams and Joss Whedon lick balls.

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