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FINAL CRISIS!!!!!
by DuncanHines
Aug 13th, 2008
06:14:55 AM
God I love Final Crisis!
Morrison already wrote a sequel to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS
by RenoNevada2000
Aug 13th, 2008
06:25:17 AM
It was his run on ANIMAL MAN.
Has anyone been reading....
by BangoSkank
Aug 13th, 2008
06:58:09 AM
the latest versions of The Authority or Wildcats? I gave up on both a while ago, with all the minis and different versions and apparent lack of direction.... Also, anyone know what other comics are a part of this reboot? I just haven't paid any attention to the Wildstorm universe for some time.....

Thanks for the reviews this week, already added Crossed and True Believers to my Midtown queue for next week....

I didn't get much last week.... I dropped Cable, 'cause there was an issue and a half worth of progress in the first five of the new series, but they suckered me in stating that the new one was not to be missed. Instead, it was a fucking recap of what had led up to the new series... Ugh. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me six time, I'm a fuckin' retard.

Also picked up Avengers/Invaders.... it okay.... but with a two month hiatus before the next ish... I just don't know... might be getting the ax. It's good but not great, and I've been trying to cut some of the fat of my list.

Final Crisis = colorful toilet paper
by Uncle Stan
Aug 13th, 2008
07:01:11 AM
Morrison is a one-trick pony, a one-hit wonder, a flash-in-the-pan. He should have disappeared on a high-note when he finished with Animal Man.
Final Crisis
by Gislef_crow
Aug 13th, 2008
07:05:58 AM
Main problem with it is, the first three issues of... seven? are nothing but build-up. It looks like they might have finally kicked into gear at the end of #3. The individual threads are mildly interesting (although Super-Team Japan and the "New" New Gods aren't doing much, neither one has been established enough previously or here to be that interesting). Yeah, not everyone read Morrison's Seven Soldiers/Mr. Miracle. But at some point you got to start pulling the threads together. Maybe it's finally happened: we'll see.
Agree 100% with Ryan McLelland
by MrSensitive
Aug 13th, 2008
07:59:42 AM
The Boys isn't the juvenile half-assed waste of time the Bug claims it is. Do I see a critic smackdown brewing?
Face it, Bug
by Desiato
Aug 13th, 2008
08:00:56 AM
Hulk is complete garbage. It's the worst book on the market. Please stop encouraging Jeph Loeb. For all of our sakes.
Crossed is written by *Warren* ELLIS...
by mdf2
Aug 13th, 2008
08:05:58 AM
I subscribe to his Bad Signal e-mail list, where he talked about it extensively before release, and his name's on the COVER for crying out loud! So while it's good, it's certainly NOT good Ennis. I like Ennis, but as a writer Ellis blows him out of the water. That said: 1) Both gentlemen have similar last names that start and end with the same letter, and tackle a lot of similar themes. 2) Both have done previous work for Avatar, where they worked with Jacen Burrows. The mistake is not beyond the realm of impossibility. Newsarama made the same mistake, but I was thinking and hoping you guys would correct it.
Uhm...mdf2...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
08:17:56 AM
Have you read CROSSED? Have you bought it? My cover says GARTH ENNIS in big letters, matching the writing credit in big letters on the interior front cover of the book. I understand the confusion because both writers write for Avatar and yes they have similar names and also yes, we've been known to mess up from time to time. But this time ain't one of them. If Ellis wrote CROSSED, then they forgot to tell the publisher, because I'm just going on what the book is telling me.

You may be thinking of the similarly themed BLACK GAS & the sequel, appropriately titled BLACK GAS 2, which came out about a year or so ago. Check the facts, mdf2. I did this time.
mdf2
by BangoSkank
Aug 13th, 2008
08:26:30 AM
um... the cover is shown on the page above you. Unless Bug photoshopped that fucker.... hmmm.... Is there a Clone War sized conspiracy affront on AICN Comics? Inquiring minds, um, couldn't give a fuck.
Mea Culpa, Ambush
by mdf2
Aug 13th, 2008
08:27:14 AM
The librarian ends up with egg on his face, comitting the same sin he accused others of. I double-checked, everywhere and you were right. I'm so sorry. It is Ennis. And Warren WAS boosting him, so I obviously did get it mixed up with Black Gas 1 & 2. You seem a really decent guy and I'm sorry I just put you through that. I should have gone with my first instinct which was to say nothing.
What TAlkback Am I On?
by optimous_douche
Aug 13th, 2008
08:29:30 AM
Civil discourse, I could cry...
The Red Hulk Is (SPOILER)
by Laserhead
Aug 13th, 2008
08:29:50 AM
.

.

.

.General Ross

American Flagg hardcover?
by Laserhead
Aug 13th, 2008
08:30:50 AM
What a strange, awesome book.
Brand New Day
by fanboyspodcast
Aug 13th, 2008
08:47:07 AM
Wow? Wasn't it a few months ago where you guys were trashing BND. How weak-kneed you've become. It's crap. Pointless crap. You're better off reading Archie.
Archie ROCKS!
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:11:58 AM
...that said, most of us HATED the concept behind BND, and a few of us said we were willing to extend an olive branch after a suitable period of mourning.

While we in the league are a band of brothers (an anthology of @$$holes?) our opinions are individual, not collective. Some still hate it, others not so much.

Personally, I'm kind of on the fence, but respect the effort being given to the book, and I certainly respect the efforts of the INDIVIDUAL writers and artists, who had nothing to do the editorial cluster-fu that was BND.
Robin
by Ryan30
Aug 13th, 2008
09:16:45 AM
Could someone explain the whole "after Chuck Dixon stormed off of Robin" comment? I was happy that he had returned to the book since it has been mostly crap since his original run. What happened?
Thor's nipples
by argonaught
Aug 13th, 2008
09:19:06 AM
I personally don't see anything wrong with the placement of the 'cones' from the cover. Their way below his pectorals. There are four of these I think, two placed above each pec, and two below. You can see a third one high up on his left breast. Still not a fan of Mcginness (sp?) though. I don't like his proportions and invents too many muscles.
The last good Crisis was Crisis on Infinite Earths
by Dick Bahls
Aug 13th, 2008
09:21:19 AM
All the classic Justice league annual Crisis with Earth 2 were good. Everything that has come since, including this total waste of paper Final Crisis has been total dog shit. I read the first one & I had no idea who the fuck have these shitty characters were. Morrison is living off past sucesses. He should retire to writing silly crude lymerics on restroon walls.
Chuck Dixon quotables:
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:25:23 AM
"I did not quit."
He actually had to leave all his commitments, not just Robin, but was far enough ahead on his writing that they were staggered (including the STORMING PARADISE series which is still ongoing, I think.) To give some level of comparison, Dixon talked about Jim Shooters reign at Marvel. He said, "Shooter was very dictatorial with strict rules for writing and drawing superheroes. The difference between his reign at Marvel and the current one at DC is that Shooter was successful at raising circulation and longterm planning."

Contrast that with: "DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."

Reflecting on the whole mess, Dixon wrote: "’ve worked under tyrants and I can say that I’d prefer to work under a talented, knowledgeable tyrant with a successful plan than a directionless gladhander with a ouija board any day of the week."

Make of it what you will. But whatever happened, it wasn't peasant.
Or even "pleasent"...
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:28:31 AM
darned lack of editing feature...
Or even pleasant
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:30:08 AM
darned lack of spell check in subject lines for FireFox...
Thor's nipples...
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:31:03 AM
great name for a band, BTW...
re: mdf2
by ScottGreen
Aug 13th, 2008
09:34:25 AM
Are you thinking of Crecy, a Avatar Ellis comic with a cross on the cover?
Rock me
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
09:38:38 AM
"Now, I’ve never read a full issue of THE AUTHORITY in my life, mostly because they always seemed like a huge rip-off of the Justice League, and worse, super-powered snobs and elitists who really got off on the fact that rules rarely applied to them. I picked up a few issue of Giffen’s MIDNIGHTER, and while it was well-written, it only reinforced my feelings that they all think they’re better than everyone else."

I'm sorry... but did you just accuse a comic book of being bougie?

Also, do you really not know who Lynch is?
Scott Green re: Crecy, Crossed, et al
by mdf2
Aug 13th, 2008
09:42:37 AM
It's a distinct possibility.

I've read Crecy, and it is indeed awesome.

But Black Gas had to be in there too. Because while I was looking at the covers -- and completely blanking on Ennis's name prominently displayed -- I was thinking 'OK, but why is Ellis going back to the well with the zombie-style stuff? It's not like him at all?'

Of course, now knowing conclusively it is Ennis, that just makes this whole thing worse.

And again, as a person who makes a living helping people find the correct book and author, it's humbling to make a mistake like that.

Hope I wasn't too disruptive or anything.

"Point blank THE BOYS is exactly what life would be like if supe
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
09:45:07 AM
Really? Including their obsession with poop, butt sex, rape and dick and fart jokes? I mean, maybe a few because Ennis certainly is, but ALL of them? Would all ovf them be Gay rapists or Junkie perverts? All of them? I have only skimmed The Boys, so could someone let me know: IS there a character who got shot in the face and know their face looks like a butt? I hope so, because that NEVER gets old...
That was sloppy of me...
by mdf2
Aug 13th, 2008
09:46:50 AM
'Because while I was looking at the covers' -- that means the covers of CROSSED, of course.

And it was the time I looked at them before the mental block got taken out of my head -- and thank everyone for that.

No need to apologize Joenathan
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
09:52:23 AM
And no, I didn't accuse the comic of being bougie (I assume you mean "bourgeois" and not esophageal dilatation.) Rather, I've always though of the CHARACTERS in such a manner. I could be wrong, but my exposure has been admittedly limited.

Likewise, I've never heard of Lynch, but based on the one story, I'm interested to know more. Hey, if they can suck a neophyte like me into the Wildstorm universe, they might really be onto something.
mdf2
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
10:02:15 AM
I think in this ONE case, I can probably speak for every reviewer here and say: no sweat.
Fair enough
by mdf2
Aug 13th, 2008
10:09:10 AM
You guys do good work.
I just found it funny.
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
10:14:52 AM
You accuse comic characters of being uppity... not of having been written and portrayed as uppity, but just in general. I mean, isn't that like accusing a chair of being snide? That lamp thinks its so much better than me, fucking lamp...

Ah, Wildstorm Neophyte, that makes sense. Lynch is Wildstorm's Nick Fury.
mdf2
by brassai2003
Aug 13th, 2008
10:27:50 AM
"I'm so sorry"=Pussy! c'mon, this thread is TOO civilzed for a TB'er! I"m lookin @ u rock-me!
Lynch
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
10:28:31 AM
Well, cool! Like I said, I look forward to finding out more, something The Authority has never inspired in me before. Color me proletariat.

As for the characters, how else could I mean to color their traits, except as "written?" I think that's a safe point to infer in any similar conversation, that when one describes a character, one is describing how they have been written. Give me a break.

I think it's counterproductive to any discussion to split syntactical hairs, since I know what I was saying, and you knew what I was saying. Right?

:>)
brassai2003
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
10:30:10 AM
You lookin' at me?

Are YOU lookin' at ME?

If i need crap from you, I'll squeeze yer stinkin head!!!!

**how am I doing?**
I'm just going off the way it was written.
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
10:31:13 AM
I could guess at the inference, duh. But the way its presented sounded like you were accusing an inatimate object of "thinkin' it was better than you and shit." So, I laughed. At you. Ha. Ha-ha-ha.
The Boys has really picked up speed
by v1cious
Aug 13th, 2008
10:41:40 AM
the last few issues have been great. hopefully they can keep it up.
FInal Crisis = Incomprehensible, But Pretty
by LaserPants
Aug 13th, 2008
10:50:57 AM
FC #3? Best. Cover. EVAR. Yes, I'm not ashamed to admit that I have raging lust for Kara "Superjailbait" Zor-El. If they ever make another live action Supergirl, they better make it good and they better cast some super hot young thing who can act and will gladly do nude scenes and let me bad touch her forever as she begs for more LaserCock.
That's okay.
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
10:58:08 AM
Imagining the odd concept of brainless, two-dimensional characters, thinking they're better than me...well, I hope you can appreciate the delicious irony here, considering the fact that you're making a point of letting me know you're laughing at me.

Now I know you really ARE The Authority on such matters!
Final Crisis, Eternals, Authority, Hellcat, Hex
by Homer Sexual
Aug 13th, 2008
10:59:35 AM
That was a good review of FC, but I am not enjoying this book. Despite being a Morrison fan, I find this title ponderous. Also a bit confusing, as DC wants to be all Silver-Agey, yet throws out this bleak storyline. The Crisis it most reminds me of is Identity, and I didn't like that one either. The original is still the best. The review even points it out by comparing the two Supergirls. Libra? Yawn. Flash stuff. Yawn. FC doesn't suck, but it doesn't interest me at all.

Speaking of bleak, I have read the Authority forever, even during R. Morrison's lackluster run. Abnett and Lanning don't compare to Ellis or Millar, two writers perfectly suited to the Authority. In fact, Millar was my favorite Authority writer ever. Midnighter and Co. are much better suited to Millar than, say, Reed and Sue et al. I don't like all these destroyed worlds. The story itself is ok, and clearly this sort of thing is what A and L love to do, they've been doing it since Legion Lost.

Acuna is the main reason to buy the Eternals. I find it terribly slow and mildly interesting. I'd really recommend waiting for the trade because then a reader could know this story is going somewhere and ending somewhere, and I think it would be much more interesting that way. I am not familiar with the Knaufs' other work, but I see this book being quickly cancelled.

Now, I suppose it's my homo sensibility, but I am greatly enjoying Hellcat. Not that it is so memorable, but it is fast moving, nice to look at, and very entertaining. It's different from any other comics I read, and I generally like minis, since they are long enough to tell a good story but short enough to end the story before it drags out.

I loved this month's Jonah Hex. There was a lot packed into one single issue. Although the art wasn't as good as the earlier issue witht the kid in the snow, this month's story was way more interesting than that other overrated issue.

Joenathan and Laserhead
by Homer Sexual
Aug 13th, 2008
11:10:52 AM
Ok, I posted before reading the other posts, and Joenathan, that post about the Boys and Arseface is friggin hilarious and spot-on!

Also, Laserhead...you are probably right! Duh to me! Good Spoiler. While Red Hulk is ridiculously over the top, I totally enjoy it. But then, I am not usually a fan of the Hulk, who is rather a boring character and that is ultimately why, IMO, the Hulk movies never really do that well or are that good.

Ambush Bug
by hst666
Aug 13th, 2008
11:30:13 AM
How can you put Preacher on one level and the Boys on another. For that matter Hitman in Ennis's early run was out there as well. And Nick Fury Max had a lot to say as well about the politics of modern warfare and the complete disregard for the people caught in the middle.
Red Hulk. Can't take it seriously.
by V'Shael
Aug 13th, 2008
11:32:57 AM
When it has things like the Hulk punching out the Watcher. That's not even "Ha ha" funny. That's just retarded.
I had the exact same thought re: Green Arrow/Black Canary
by Laserhead
Aug 13th, 2008
12:21:06 PM
--in FC. Yeah, yeah, I get it. All they do is fuck.
Avatar Ennis
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 13th, 2008
12:45:39 PM
Bug, so you like Crossed, but have you checked out his other Avatar work, like 303 and Chronicles of Wormwood? Going from what you said, you probably would prefer 303. Wormwood, however, was great. Even the sequel, which was admittedly weaker than the original, had something going for it. Like the title character actually doing a DVD commentary which related to the story's narrative. That's something I like about Ennis, how expertly he weaves in those little details of life into his stories. Like his YouTube monologue in Crossed.

I would also rank The Boys amongst Ennis better stuff. Although the most recent storyline, I Tell You No Lie, G.I. is kinda boring, slowing down the story for almost nothing. It's just been four issues of exposition, basically. It reminds me of the Reaver-Cleaver New York story arc that happens early in Preacher. I also found that one boring, but stuck through it and overall, I'd say Preacher turned out pretty good. So I'll stick with the Boys.
Moore writing Fantastic Four - but with Byrne on art
by the maven
Aug 13th, 2008
01:06:55 PM
Heh. Screw the book; I'd pay good money just for a ticket to watch Byrne's head explode every time he had to look at the script.
I'm curious about The Boys...
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
01:07:28 PM
because, I bought the first three or so and dropped it, since then, like I said, I've looked it over and I just don't get it. When I look at this book, I just see puerile, sophmoric crap of the worst stripe. Predictable, lame and mean spirited, most of all, Ennis's deeply set geek self-loathing dripping like putrid bile from each page. I just don't see even a glimpse of an inkling of anything near deserving the praise this book seems to get.

So... What is it? What makes this comic good? What is it? What theme is Ennis tackling that he hasn't already beaten into the ground and then ass-fucked to death? I mean, is he really deconstructing superheroes or does he just hate himself for writing them?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Preacher and I'll drool and chortle over a poop joke as much as the next guy, but if 3 pages go buy in that book that doesn't have at least one reference to poop or butt sex or rape or chicks with dicks, then I'd bet there was a two page advert in there somewhere...

And really, a gerbil in the butt joke, um... yeah, last time I heard that I laughed so hard I fell off my dinosaur... How edgy of Ennis to devote several pages to it.

so come on, you Boy-lovers, let's hear it. Tell me how on Earth you can consider thais insipid, unispired, rehashed trash to be worthy of any praise at all, outside of Robinson's pencils? Explain it to me, because I don't get it.
Lynch and WildStorm
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 13th, 2008
01:07:54 PM
Rock-Me, I have to say that the WildStorm Universe is one of my guilty pleasures. Although I'm more Wild(Cats) than Storm(Watch) (the ancestor of The Authority), I think the way the intelligence stuff is handled in WS makes it a funner place than it should have been. If you care to bother, there are a few series that I believe were the high-water marks for this universe:

Point Blank - Sleeper v. 1 & 2. Point Blank is a mini-series about Grifter and Lynch and a surprise villain. The mini led into a spinoff series about a minor character, Holden Carver , aka The Conductor, a super-powered government agent stuck undercover in a super-powered criminal organization. Personally, I believe this to be Ed Brubaker's best work, way superior to his Criminal, Gotham Central and Catwoman all wrapped together. Plus Sean Phillips elevates the art of page layout by several steps during this series.

WildC.A.T.S. v1 15-20 (James Robinson), v1 21-34 (Alan Moore), v. 2 8-28 and v3 1-24 (Joe Casey). Robinson and Moore turn in some solid mainstream stuff, then Casey grabs the ball and just runs with it, creating a series which, in my opinion, is as important to today's comic as Steven Grant's original Punisher mini-series was.

Kev,, More Kev, The Magnificient Kevin, A Man Called Kev, The Midnighter: Garth Ennis. In this series of mini-series, Ennis develops a character as endearing as Tommy Monaghan was and relentlessly makes fun of The Authority.

But if it's not you kinda stuff, just forget I said anything.
Arkhangelsk - thanks for the detailed heads-up
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
01:23:23 PM
I LOVE those kinds of posts, saves me time and money. If it's well written, I'm generally interested. Now that I recall, I actually DID pick up some Wildcats, back in the 90's when Jim Lee first came out with them, and we readers were REQUIRED to purchase anything drawn by artists with the last name Lee (Jim Lee, Jae Lee...Paul Lee, even...)

I also picked up A MAN NAMED KEV a while back, not knowing it was part of the larger continuity, and liked that as well (but not enough to seek out said continuity.)

Muchos Thank-os.
Really, Rock Me
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
01:35:57 PM
You should read Ellis's Stormwatch and his Aliens vs Stormwatch one shot(all available in trades?. Those lead into the creation of the Authority, which, like someone else said, the first two volumes of are great.

As for Lynch, I don't know, did anyone read the whole Team 7 story? I think it was plagued by delays, but it was kind of cool, if I remember right.
The cool thing about ALIENS/STORMWATCH:
by SleazyG.
Aug 13th, 2008
01:41:11 PM
It's the only crossover with a mainstream hero book the Aliens property ever did where they actually kill the shit out of ongoing characters and the team book is forever changed. You'd never see the Aliens eat Jimmy Olsen or rip Commissioner Gordon in half, but StormWatch got the shit kicked out of 'em.
Kenny G, Uzis, History and Jeff
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
01:47:52 PM
"What are things that tend to repeat themselves, Alex?"
Agreed, Sleazy
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
01:56:11 PM
That book lived up to the movies: The Aliens were portrayed as dangerous and good characters died because of it. Clearing the slate in such a cool way created an excellant story point and resulted in some excellant creations. I wish Marvel would have had the balls to do something as radical with World War Hulk.
No, I wasn't a part of last week's debate...
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
02:01:19 PM
...and so, having nothing to add to that topic, I like to have fun. Maybe make you smile. Believe me, I'm completely uninvested in whatever debate you had. No big.

But don't make the mistake of presuming what I think.
I"ll presume...
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
02:07:11 PM
I presume:



tacos
Heh!
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
02:09:16 PM
Nailed me in one, Joenathan! Man, I wish I could take lunch, and there's a Taco Bell calling my name!
The Next Step For Green Arrow / Black Canary
by LaserPants
Aug 13th, 2008
02:19:34 PM
Is have them fucking WHILST adventuring. Like, say, they're in the midst of a fight with the League of Assassins, and are suddenly so overcome with lust they start fucking right there. This would no doubt really put off the villains who would either be turned-on or sickened, but either way, more or less transfixed by the situation, and far too preoccupied to fight, thereby allowing the overly libidinous duo to unless some kind of Double Super Whammy Cum-Shot Multiple Screaming Orgasm Attack on all and sundry. You know she's a screamer, so that would be something to see.
Unleash, Not Unless
by LaserPants
Aug 13th, 2008
02:20:25 PM
thereby allowing the overly libidinous duo to UNLEASH some kind of Double Super Whammy Cum-Shot Multiple Screaming Orgasm Attack on all and sundry. You know she's a screamer, so that would be something to see.
Why I Like The Boys
by optimous_douche
Aug 13th, 2008
02:25:54 PM
Pretty much for the reasons you stated and the reasons I still enjoy ASBAR: I sometimes like to be puerile and sophomoric.

Does it get to be too much at times? Absolutely. As I was reading the story in Russia and as much as I enjoy porn (grab your dick and double click for porn..porn..porn..), I really could have lived without seeing that chick go after her hoo hah with the dildo. Granted it wasn’t graphic, but it was certainly alluded to and I think quite heavy handed.

This is why I just don’t read Ennis stuff back-to-back. Nor would I feast on a steady diet of Miller with ASBAR.

Now, with someone like Johns I can just go from one book to another without a breath. It all boils down to personal taste. War & Peace will always be heralded as a great book, but fuck if I can even get past the first page.

ASBAR?
by Joenathan
Aug 13th, 2008
02:44:15 PM
Yes, its all about personal taste, BUT... I was looking for more of a "why does it deserve critical praise" type of answer. Everybody is allowed to like something stupid and shitty just because they like it, thats fine, but The Boys get reviewed somewhat positively and I just don't get why. Does someone, anyone, out there thinkEnnis is doing something groundbreaking or original?
Albertson, why are you here exactly?
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
03:02:05 PM
Just wondering. I mean, all you do is try to rip on AICN Comics and draw attention to yourself by doing so. It's not like there aren't other places for you to talk comics. Why here? (I really want to know) I'm all for debate, but your pathetic and pitiful continuation of labeling everything as "polite debate" is just that. Do you enjoy comics? Why? I'd love to talk about that.

But really, if you hate the reviews and the reviewers, isn't there any other place you can find that suits your needs? It's a big internet out there.

And while we're on the subject of "winning a debate", how exactly did you win, may I ask? And what did you win exactly? And what did your mom think when you printed out that awesome set of posts and pasted it on the fridge with such pride?

This is a message board. A talkback. It's no race. There are no winners. You didn't win. You just proved to be uninteresting and everyone but you moved on to the next message board.

Not that I have to defend Buzz (because I know he can handle himself), but it's most likely that he realized what kind of person he was talking with and smartly chose to be the bigger man and move on.

It's all opinions here. There are no winners. Last week, I dangled the "I will ban you " carrot, but now I'm just kind of looking on flabbergasted. It's just kind of sad the pomposity at work here. I mean, are you really that uninsightful not to see how lame you sound when you claim victory over a talkback debate? You've got to be fucking kidding me... If you have to scream how much of a winner you are, JA, chances are you're not.

That said, I have to say, I like BND. And I'm willing to forgive some of the crap that went on at Marvel during and after CIVIL WAR because of the cool stuff that spawned form it. I also agree with Joenathan about the Boys (well, said, Joe Nat).

Jeff, flame away. Tell me how mature and right you are. Tell me how crazy smart you are and waste your time writing long posts in response. I'll let you "win" this debate too. So sad...

Meanwhile, I'll chat with Joenathan about our new common ground in our dislike for THE BOYS.
It is kind of funny, Jeff.
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 13th, 2008
03:55:42 PM
I meant a light-hearted jab, but I think your ego is such that even the slightest nudge is more than you can handle. Joenathan and I went back and forth, and it was no big deal for either of us. You could learn from him.

It's kind of funny, until you show up practically begging someone to argue with you. Uhn, no. I think I'm done here today, I can't stand to watch you hurt yourself.
after R.I.P. nightwing...
by sonnyhooper
Aug 13th, 2008
03:58:22 PM
......will most likely take over for bruce in the bat-suit. just a guess. and i know, i know, you might come back with: "but tim is becomming more batman like by the second, he is all dark and brooding." but see, here is the beauty, think about how cool it will be to have the role reversal; having a sullen and dark character in the robin suit, while the guy in the bat suit is a bit more optimistic and bright.
JeffAlbert I Have a Home 4 U
by optimous_douche
Aug 13th, 2008
04:24:19 PM
I don't like to blatantly plug my other site, but since Bug is pulling the ban card I can't resist.

I have a place where all we do is insult one another. Come on over to theybannedme.com and join in the flaming fun. We even have a comics section. Right now it's just filled with my reviews, but please come fill it with verbal acid.

LOL
by Le Vicious Fishus
Aug 13th, 2008
04:25:41 PM
That exchange deserved it: a big, old fashioned "LOL." Please keep up this lively banter!
You didn't win any "debates", Jeff.
by SleazyG.
Aug 13th, 2008
04:26:14 PM
Yoiu acted smug and superior, declared everybody else too stupid to be in the room with you, and we all decided you were a waste of time and effort. I had real world responsibilities to meet, and feeding the trolls was pushed to the wayside. You fall somewhere right now between boring and sickening me, so if you were going for dull nausea, congrats--mission accomplished. Other than helping the corner pharmacy sell more Pepto-Bismol, though, your contributions are of no value whatsoever.
Actually, I'm not leaving anything.
by SleazyG.
Aug 13th, 2008
05:03:07 PM
But I'm still bored, and you're still acting like a schmuck. Once again, just like last week, I'm not "giving up"--I'm just sick of feeding the trolls and off to do something more constructive, like watching my toenails grow.
man, i LOVE "polite debate".....
by sonnyhooper
Aug 13th, 2008
05:15:26 PM
......really, i do. so lets do it, what shall we debate? only thing is, we gotta make it quick. the wife is cooking dinner and i HATE eating cold food. so ready, set, go!!
Aaaaaannnnnd, we're done...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
05:31:55 PM
Man, this is why I don't make comments
by Harry Crevice
Aug 13th, 2008
05:33:28 PM
It's always some kind of intervention group for Albertson: self-proclaimed expert. Booooooo-ring.
I love it when they self destruct like that...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
05:34:19 PM
makes my job easy.
Ambush Bug
by BonafidePaterFamilius
Aug 13th, 2008
05:38:47 PM
I read the column every week but never post, but I have to today to thank you for banning Mr. Albertson. The talkback is now free of potentially lethal levels of self-satisfied smug, and he can finally get his nut off about how the everyone will reject him for his staggering intelligence. Win-Win for everybody.
Retraction About Supergirl's Vagina
by optimous_douche
Aug 13th, 2008
05:40:02 PM
I've received quite a few e-mails and MySpace messages that cats do in fact piss in places other than sand.

I guess I got lucky and had genius felines.

I'm still going to contend though that despite her insane hotness, Supergirl is secreting something strange if the cat is solely pissing on the laundry basket. Perhaps Kryptonians sweat catnip.

I wonder...
by Harry Crevice
Aug 13th, 2008
05:50:11 PM
if we all sit around and talk about what a douche albertson is (no offense, optimous) if someone, somewhere will hear the sounds of a sad fanboy screeching "They said I was MAD at the talkbacks. MAD I TELL YOU!!!!" before his head pops open like the overinflated ego it contains.
ahh, too bad.....
by sonnyhooper
Aug 13th, 2008
06:42:50 PM
....just finished dinner and was kinda looking forward to more "polite debate". oh well, at least the chicken was good and hot.

anyway, on to more serious questions. for example if an over inflated ego explodes on the internet alone, with no one around to hear it, does it actually make a sound?

A few things...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
07:33:28 PM
Agreed. Green Arrow and Black Canary need to stop having so much sex. Or at least, let's have Dinah get preggers as a result of a broken condom arrow.

I can't really comment on THE BOYS current arc because I stopped reading it a while ago. It took me a while, but I've been trying to stop buying books I continually dislike on a consistent basis. Last time I read the book was when the armored guy was fucking everything. And I'm not trying to be all upity here, but, it just got to be lame seeing Ennis endless fixation on anal play. It was pretty obvious that Ennis was setting out to reach new lows with his first issue when he had all of the heroes in a mass orgy. I don't mind the violence, but it was just gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous with little depth. Later, Ennis tied to inject some weight, but by that time every orifice was filled and every cape shat upon. I was just tired with Ennis' constant super hero bashing.

I get it. Ennis doesn't like capes. He's driven that point home in many different comics. The guy can still write some pretty damn fine stuff (exemplified perfectly in PUNISHER MAX), but even his Punisher stuff has become a bit predicatable and tedious following a paint-by-numbers formula of Issue 1) Introducing a new person/thing to piss Frank off. Issue 2) Issue dedicated to enemy or victim where Frank hardly makes an appearance. Issue 3) repeat guidlines from issue 2 except swap victim with villain or vice versa. Issue 4) Shit starts happening, usually a kick ass action scene leaving Frank in a predicament or false sense of secutiry. Issue 5) Frank guts/shoots/blows up/throws/icepicks/mutiliates/ tickles the villain to death usually ending with a bit of insight into Frank's character. It's a good formula to follow, but he's done it over and over. The result continues to be awesome, but predictable nevertheless.

THE BOYS may have improved. If so, good for the fans who stuck with it. I just don't think I'm interested in the book anymore.
And sonnyhopper...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 13th, 2008
07:38:45 PM
I agree. I think that's where they're going with the RIP storyline. Either Todd or Grayson is going to be the next Batman. Could go either way, but it would be interesting to see a dark Robin and a lighter, more stable Batman for a change. Todd as Batman would open up a whole other bag of cats with Robin and Batman not getting along at all and being at odds. Not sure which scenario I like better. Both have promise.
hmm...
by blackthought
Aug 13th, 2008
07:39:24 PM
chicken.
The Boys
by BonafidePaterFamilius
Aug 13th, 2008
07:54:03 PM
I picked up #21 today based on the review above, and I think it was an interesting concept, that of a botched superhero effort, but executed to ridiculous degrees. I think only an idiot would effectively let themselves be run over by a plane and not know it would depressurize if you ripped the door off or smashed the windshield open. Bursting ears by shouting too loud, the confusion and panic I liked, but the rampant idiocy and cowardice of The Seven was just pushed too far to be believable. This is my first taste of this title, and it'll probably be my last. Outside of the JLA/Hitman special, I'm not a fan of Ennis.
but bug....
by sonnyhooper
Aug 13th, 2008
07:59:37 PM
...the only thing about jason todd as batman is that it is a bit "been there, done that, bought the variant cover". it would kinda be like az-bats all over again in my eyes.

i dunno, i just got this feeling that the tomasi run on nightwing is leading up to something big for grayson. two storys arcs in and allready the 'wingster has tangled with talia and two-face, a couple of "top shelf" rouges from the bat-gallery. that HAS to mean something is afoot.

Awwww...
by Redmantle
Aug 13th, 2008
08:13:30 PM
I was kinda looking forward to seeing Albertson self-destruct. Now I can't read the posts. Oh well...
I really hate Jason Todd
by nyj_et
Aug 13th, 2008
08:33:04 PM
And wish he'd go back to being dead. I really saw no reason for his resurrection. Maybe they can bring back Uncle Ben and Jor-El while they're at it.
You're welcome, Rock-Me
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 13th, 2008
09:07:13 PM
And if you prefer your Ennis in small doses, than go easy on the Kev stuff. It has fairly graphic humour and some recurrent potty-jokes. I would also not recoomend Brubaker's Authority: Evolution. Love the Bru, but he still can't do supergroup dynamics as well as loner hero.

I'm also glad is wrapping up his Punisher Max. It was damn good but it's time to put that horse to sleep. For those who don't like his brand of graphic violence/humour, i'd recommend either his War Stories for Vertigo, his 303 for Avatar or his Dan Dare for Virgin. All great storytelling. Unless you also can't stand army stories, in which case then Ennis is definitely not for you.

Final Crisis is good. Not Morrison's best, but still hella entertaining. The problem is they put "Crisis" in the title. I haven't read any DC since Identity Crisis apart from some Teen titans here and there and so do not particularly care for their mega-continuity. But Morrison can still spin a good yarn.
Steve Wacker - that makes me giggle
by Geekgasm
Aug 13th, 2008
09:47:52 PM
"a ‘70s story where Spidey and Doc Ock fight Hammerhead’s radioactive ghost," - *sigh* They don't write them like that anymore ...
Red Hulk
by DuncanHines
Aug 14th, 2008
06:22:56 AM
Yeah, I'm on board too. I have to agree with TallBoy about how not every comic has to be introspective. I think we all got so used to more psychoanalytical and serious takes on Hulk that a book with a Hulk just smashing the shit out of everyone and everything took us all by surprise. It's fun to read. It looks fucking beautiful. And way back in the talkback, Laserhead said Red Hulk is General Ross. Very interesting call, man. I like that and I second that.

by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
09:17:44 AM
Also came out last week: BtVS Season 8 #17
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
09:42:03 AM
Before Season Eight came out, even before Astonishing X-Men came out, I knew Joss Whedon rocked on the comics page as hard as he did on the small screen. I knew because I had read a little story that, even though took its damn sweet time to come out, I consider to be one of the great comic book stories. Fray.

In the current Season Eight story arc, Time Of Your Life, Buffy has been thrown in the future and, in what could very well have turned into putrid fanfic, meets (and fights, of course this is a comic book so the good guys fight first THEN cooperate) Fray. If any one had been wondering about this series, I'd say that TOYL is a perfect jumping on point. Karl Moline, original penciller and co-creator of Fray, is just firing on all pistons. His line is crisp, cartoony yet creepy. His page layout helps move the story along without being too flashy and drawing too much attention to itself. And the reveal at then end is just amazing, in a you think you know but we'll still pull a fast one on you kind of way. But what kicks this issue up one notch is the small meta-commentary that gets sneaked in during a Buffy/Fray conversation, where the Slayer muses about how she should have treated the english language better now that she see how it devolves in the future. Meta-commentary is hard, near impossible, to pull off, and Whedon does it effortlessly. I think I'm almost starting to like the comic better than the tv show...
>br>bacci40 - Not only is Terry Moore one of the most underrated writer AND penciller in the biz (I dare anyone to read a trade of SIP and not pick up the rest of the series) he is also one of the best businessman out there. He created Abstract Studios to fit his creations and lives comfortably off of it, not owing anyone anything. He moved to Image when it seemed right, backed off when it didn't fit anymore and bet and won on TPB's becoming more important than monthlies. You just have to respect the man. Plus, SMLMJ really is a lesson in great storytelling.
Ennis
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
09:58:57 AM
I don't mind graphic humor at all or excessive violence, in fact, I prefer a book with liberal or at least ready amounts of both. I love deconstructing superheroes and seeing what makes them work and my favorite heroes are always the fallible ones, but that’s not what Ennis does.

He pretends that he does that, but really he just whines on and on about how much he hates superheroes. It’s the same old dirge each time. And now, just like his arseface clones, just like his butt sex jokes, and just like his use of rape as a shock joke, he’s tired and played the fuck out. He's like the old grunge rockers of the 90s whenever they were on MTV, oh, how horrible corporate rock is, it was just so awful doing press, oh woe is me, the rock star. Why didn't they just stop being rock stars then? Or more so, he’s like Lucas, always talking about the Art film he’s going to do, the real project he’s always wanted to do, the thing that really matters, but he’s just been too busy dealing with the low brow stuff to get to it.

Well, why doesn’t he?

I’ll tell you why, its because they're all bullshit, that’s why, just like Ennis, they’re all total fucking whack off bullshit liars. They don’t have the sack or talent to do anything else. Ennis knows this and it eats at him. It shows in his work. To top it all off, Ennis’s super hero hatred is also rooted in the fact that he's just not any good at writing them, he’s derivative and repetitive and his bag of tricks is as transparent as a zip-loc baggie and he’s really, really bitter that he’s not talented enough to successfully write anything else.

I don’t know why people still buy his crap, its just the same tired, old meat whore joke painted fresh to cover it’s rot. It never ceases to amaze how many comic book fans there are out there who really do love dick and fart jokes and a never ending grab bag of ass sex… very suspect, I guess Chasing Amy was a bit spot on… I mean, if Ennis’s numbers are any indication, the crowd must be huge, because while Preacher was a great idea, well done at times, but mostly rambling and it may have changed Vertigo (for the better) it only did this by virtue of existing and being different from the previous offerings, certainly (In retrospect) NOT by being anything revolutionary. He can’t be still riding off that, right?

So, what’s the appeal? Why do people keep reading a guy who thinks that they and the things they like are beneath him, despite his lack of talent and simmering hatred over his awareness of this fact? Its like being friends with someone who keeps trying to nut shot you, what’s the appeal?

Bottom line: If Ennis hates superheroes so much, why doesn't he just quit writing them and move on?
Also,
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
10:39:07 AM
I'm not much of a DC guy, so whats the time-line on Jason Todd vs. WinterSoldier/Bucky? Bucky came back first, right? Maybe? I think thats how I remember it, maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought of Jason Todd as just DC riding Marvel's idea's coattails.
Ennis
by rock-me Amodeo
Aug 14th, 2008
10:45:41 AM
I won't speak to the whole superhero hate thing, but I do love Army stories (being ex-Army myself, an NCO and then an officer.)

And thought his fascination with being absolutely graphic in almost everything kinda turns me off, I abso-bloody-lutely LOVED what he did on DAN DARE. He really approached the character with the proper reverence and respect, and it showed.
Ennis, Albertson
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
11:11:00 AM
I think Punisher MAX has been one of the great comic runs of all time, but I fall into the category of really disliking the "other Ennis." I have both trades of 'The Boys' and just can't find anything enjoyable in there. It's not clever, and it's not deconstructing anything-- it's just puerile and quite stupid in many of its plot points. But you read his War Stories and Punisher MAX and 303, and its like he's got a split personality.

Could somebody go back in time, copy Albertson's meltdown, and post it here? I'd really like to witness that.

Final Crisis is actually a sequel to
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
11:11:46 AM
Seven Soldiers. Really.
Joenathan, Todd
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
11:17:24 AM
I've always thought of Jason Todd's resurrection as Winnick riding on Loeb's coattails. One bad writer riding another bad writer's coattails, in other words.
FC & Seven Soldiers
by optimous_douche
Aug 14th, 2008
11:40:37 AM
I don't think it should be considered as a direct sequel.

Rather a continuation of giving the second string charachters at DC more prominence.

We saw it come to some fruition with this latest opening and the apperance of Frankenstein.

The Authority
by Bluejack
Aug 14th, 2008
11:41:36 AM
zzzzz.....zzzzz.....zzzzz...
The Authority has been a boring rehash of itself far too many times. They need to be retired.
Loeb is another person I don't get...
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
11:49:29 AM
Winnick is like Liefeld, just a deformed oddity that no one even wants to touch, let alone question their attendance, but Loeb... I mean, Long Halloween was fine (blatant Godfather/Goodfella rip offs aside) but he's just so schlocky and heavy handed otherwise. Is ANYONE still reading his Ultimates? Is there ANYONE actually looking forward to Ultimatum? When was the last time he did something… “good”? Smallville is where that fucking guy belongs.

I also really enjoyed Ennis's Punisher and likewise his Fury, but with Punisher, I felt the first, I don't know... 12 issues were great, but then the recycling started and suddenly it was like Punisher was just the retarded, face shot sibling of Preacher, Fury was like that too kinda. New dress, same tired old crackwhore. I think Ennis blew his wad on Preacher and all we’re getting now is a smear of smegma. Snooze fest. I've heard his war stuff is good, but at this point anything from Ennis falls into the same category as McG's Terminator for me. Its gonna take alot of good stuff, before I'm going to stop just automatically assuming that its going to be crap.

I loved Seven Soldiers, warts and all.
I disagree with you on Authority
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
11:52:47 AM
Yes, they are obviously familiar templates taken from established characters and can quickly and easily become a ridiculous parady of themselves, but what they lack is the drowning weight of continuity and that makes them exciting or at least gives them the potential to be exciting. They're free to do anything, if they've got a good enough writer. I'm really excited to explore Wildstorm's new status quo.
Jeff Albertson
by Homer Sexual
Aug 14th, 2008
01:03:16 PM
So now he is banned, and I had to resist taking the bait when he claimed to have won the debate last week. But I have to give him credit for one of the most clever logins of all time, when I first saw it I didn't even realize it's the Comic Book Guys real name, and I consider myself a Simpson expert.

I loooved Seven Soldiers. Just loved it, although the end was disappointing. I loved every single one of the minis. If only FC were a continuation of that. It just doesn't seem like that's what it is to me. Yes, there is a lot of attention to secondary characters, but I usually love that kind of thing. Maybe it's just my hate of bringing back long-since dead and replaced characters. But I'm cool with both Bucky and Jason Todd.

And, well, here I go again Joenathan. Although I agreed so much with you on Ennis, I am dropping all my Wildstorm Titles, because all this postapocalyptic crap just doesn't float my boat. So no more Authority or Gen13 for me. I do agree that the use of Authority as freed-up templates of DC icons makes them way more interesting (to me) than the Justice League. Plus, they have the best gay characters in all of comics.

Final Question for Laserhead. If you didn't like the first gn of The Boys, why did you buy the second. I actually dropped that crap after one issue, just exactly for the reasons Joenathan points out. Ennis sure was good on Hellblazer, back in the day. Now, he does indeed coast on the very good, but over rated, Preacher.

Here's my Wildstorm thoughts...
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
01:53:32 PM
All they've ever really been (for the most part) is a weak Marvel/DC rip-off. They've got some good characters and ideas, but a meandering editorial direction generally lacking in cohesion, a good amount of somewhat lazy and unfocused third tier talent and some short sighted creative decisions have really stunted their Universe, I feel.

When it was good, sure, it was great, BUT that’s always seemed few and far between. Titles like Planetary aside, they've always been in Marvel/DC's shadow. I think this shake up of the status quo is exactly what they need, something that not only removes them from the pack, but sets some firm ground rules that determines their direction as a universe. Yes, it may be narrow somewhat in its demands, but honestly, how many ways are really left to make the classic superhero/secret identity set up fresh?

I’m a fan of the dystopian in general, for the most part, (hence my initial love of Old Man Logan) so I’m already interested, but to me, really, I think taking this chance is something you almost NEVER see comics do and at the very least, should be supported at the start to show our approval of new and exciting story risks instead of the same old tired re-hashes. Of course, whether or not the idea is executed… well, that depends on the creative teams.

This reminds of my main problem with Marvel, though, despite being a Marvel zombie, and that is: the Real World. Being set in the real World or too close to the real world always digs at me… just a little. I mean, why isn’t Reed marketing his inventions like the Fantastic Car? Why isn’t he curing Cancer? Why is SHIELD allowed to police the World? They’re U.N., right? So why does it seemed linked directly to the U.S. government a lot of the times? Why aren’t the Initiative more involved in American foreign policy, for good or ill? Where were the Avengers on 9/11?

These are all uncomfortable questions that I don’t spend a lot of time on or like broaching, BUT… they’re still there and the lack of an answer paints the heroes in a bad light, so really, for my own ease of mind, I would like something big to happen to the Marvel-verse, like say… the Earth is taken over by Aliens… ahem… that firmly removes them from our time and our world, something hugely destructive like Wildstorm is doing so that I don’t have to be uncomfortable with the insanely high level of selfishness Reed displays by everyday by wasting time exploring the fucking negative zone while AIDS ravages Africa. Doesn’t this bother anyone else? I mean, yeah, its comics, but still. I guess I like my comics kind of real, but not in the real world.
optimus
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
02:01:56 PM
The whole Club Darkside and what happened to the New Gods thing was put in place as a major unresolved plot point of Seven Soldiers. At the very least I'd say FC begins in Seven Soldiers. As long as you completely ignore Death of the New Gods and Countdown.

Can you really not get past the first page of War & Peace? It's not difficult, it's just long. Nobody seems to mind length when Stephen King is drawing a simple story out to 700 pages. Try the new Pevear and Volokhovsky translation. It's awesome. I don't mean to be pretentious, I just want to increase literacy.

Homer
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
02:03:02 PM
I got the trades at the same time. Leap of faith. Sometimes faith fucks you.
Actually, Arkhangel...
by Cyrus Clops
Aug 14th, 2008
02:09:21 PM
I though that that first Strangers in Paradise paperback was pretty weak. It's not a promising start. It opens with some wacky accidental public nudity and ends with a small-dick joke (and, come to think of it, more public nudity). The characters, at least as introduced, are pretty two-dimensional: Francine is a self-loathing basket case and Katchoo is a cliched, predatory, man-hating lesbian. The plot is practically a sitcom (complete with dream sequences and a pervy neighbor) and there's even poetry. And David has the dumbest haircut ever (mercifully gone by the second book). Don't get me wrong, it improves dramatically after that as Moore finds his feet, but I wouldn't have picked up the subsequent books, based on Volume One, if I hadn't already picked up the first three in one go.
You're right, Cyrus Clops
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
03:05:22 PM
most of the people I got hooked on SIP (I used to work in a call center where you were allowed to read in-between calls. When I started there, no one was reading comics. By the time I left, I'd say a good 70% of the employees were either buying trades or borrowing them off of each other.)

Anyways, I was saying that most of the people I got hooked on SIP either started hapharzardly in the middle of the story, or at best on I Dream Of You. As did I. The first thing I ever read of Moores was SIP v2 #14. So I agree. The Antartatic Press series was a bit amateurish. But considering this was the dude's first ever attempt at doing the pamphlet form of comics, that he drew and wrote all this at night on his kitchen table on less-than-professional grade paper, I'd say he did well enough.

Now that you make me think of it, I'd say Terry More's real trick is that he keeps improving. The improvement between the AP SIP and I Dream of you is amazing. Same thing is happening in Echo. Issues 1-3 were well enough done, but not necessary so good that I'd have stuck around for a no-name creator. Issues 4 $ 5, however, just up the whole game by several levels.
correction of typo
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
03:12:53 PM
that's issues 4 & 5, not 4 $ 5. Thank you
An attempt at defending The Boys
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
03:32:08 PM
Ok, so first off, if you don't like The Boys, I'm not getting on your case. I understand that it is not to everyone's tastes, so I'm not trying to convince anyone here.

Is The Boys juvenile? The humor of bad taste and the violence gratuitous? The sexual situations overly graphic? Yes. But I personally think it works. I think it's funny. What Ennis tries to illustrate is how power corrupts. And he's doing it in comic book form. And what genre rules the comics market? Superheroes of course. So if you wanna show how the people in charge are corrupted in comic book form, you do it using superheroes. Were pirates or elves stories the most preponderant genre in the comic book field, he might be using those to make his point.

But the real heart, the real star, of The Boys is not The Seven or Butcher, it's Wee Hughie. Hughie is just a normal, good character trying to make his way as best he can in a fucked beyond belief world. I can relate, y'know? And if you're a Simon Pegg fan, it's even more of a hoot.

Is it Ennis' best work? No. Does it out-Preacher Preacher? No. The first issue was but a teaser, not a story (compared to Preacher #1, one of the best first issues ever). The last story arc was nothing but 4 issues of exposition. But I'm still entertained and I'm sticking with it.

And if you still mistakenly believe that all Ennis ever does is variations on stuff like The Boys, again, check out Dan Dare or Crossed (only 1$ for the preview!!!) and then talk to me about it
hmmmmm...
by Joenathan
Aug 14th, 2008
05:43:05 PM
See, I don't see the "Power Corrupts" theme you claim, because the Hero seems to be portrayed as super powerful, righteous and infallible, despite his vices and perversions, in fact he's lauded for those flaws. So really, I think its more reasonable to claim that this book is about the hollow falsehood of celebrity culture and the reality of the people it props up, but even then it seems less a sociological statement and more of a bitter, anger driven attack. Which just makes the book seem even more lame... What? Is Paris Hilton REALLY not worth the press, Garth? Really? What a revelation. Wow, is it obvious day at Camp Stupid already?
Can anyone give me a rundown of Ennis' 303?
by Ambush Bug
Aug 14th, 2008
06:02:05 PM
I'm not familiar with that one. If it's along the lines of Ennis' War Stories and Punisher work, I may be interested.

I'm not as against THE BOYS as Joenathan, but what boggles my mind is how Ennis can write so well in the Punisher and then serve up crap like DICKS and THE PRO. Although, I guess he can do whatever he wants because both seem to sell. It'd be interesting to see the numbers comparing Ennis' more serious efforts compared to his gratuitous ones.
303
by Laserhead
Aug 14th, 2008
06:27:32 PM
It's about an old Russian soldier who was around and serving when there was still a USSR, a man saddened by the current state of his country and its soldiers. When all his men are massacred by western forces in what amounts to a clean-up operation, he goes to America on a mission of vengeance. Good Ennis, though I don't much care for Jacen Burrows' art.
What Laserhead said...
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 14th, 2008
10:35:05 PM
303 is defenitely in the War Stories half of the equation, but set in modern times.

JoeNathan, no, the 'hero' (and here you're either talking about Homelander or Butcher, but what I say applies to both) is not "portrayed as super powerful, righteous and infallible, despite his vices and perversions, in fact he's lauded for those flaws". The 'hero' in The Boys is someone who has so much power, he believes himself above anything, sets his own rules and does whatever the fuck pleases him, right or wrong. In a way, you are are right that this critique would also apply to our modern celebrity culture. Those who play and win at this game, who have the emotional and mental development of an average teenager, are indeed imbued with a sort of power and, 9 times out of 10 will use it in an egocentric way. And yes, I believe that Paris Hilton and her ilk still need to be denounced in a world where reality-tv is considered the pinnacle of pop culture.
SiP, Further and The Boys
by Cyrus Clops
Aug 14th, 2008
10:36:27 PM
I think that's a pretty fair assessment of SiP and Moore's progression as a storyteller. Like I said, as let down as I was by Volume One, I was eating a bit of crow by the end of I Dream of You. It was a drastic improvement (though Moore's linework was always beautiful, but even that got better over time). I still wasn't crazy about the poetry or prose sections, but you could tell he was growing more confident as a writer and artist. The relationship drama and the more noirish, serious element of Katchoo's past could have easily come off as laughable, but I think Moore naviagtes it well (or at least with more grace than if he'd done it without those clumsy initial issues under his belt). I think he's the kind of writer who gets better when he's allowed to spend a lot of time with the characters; to me that's why his brief stints on non-creator-owned stuff (I'm thinking of Birds of Prey specifically) were never all that good, and explains why people grew to love the Francine-Katchoo-David dynamic so strongly despite the iffy beginning. I suspect the same thing will happen with Echo (I read #1-3 in one sitting and will be doing the same with 4 and 5). So far it's only okay, but I do give him credit for running in the oppposite direction with his SiP follow-up (and Jeff Smith, too, for that matter, with RASL).

I'm hesitant to say The Boys is entirely without merit; it is a damn fun read, even if it is sort of Ennis-by-numbers. I think that Tek-Knight storyline epitomizes my feelings on the series: it's a story predicated on homophobic jokes and truly vile scatology, but there's that thread of acceptance (mainly pushed by Butcher, of all people) that momentarily makes you forget you're reading a story about a guy compulsively fucking everything he sees. It's a weird and uncomfortable contrast, but I don't think it works as well as the same thing did on Preacher (or even Punisher). There's a big part of me that wants to say Ennis just throws thos elements in to defray criticism, but he's been at this long enough that I think he knows what he's doing and knows that even the broadest farce (and a big "fuck you" to superhero fans) needs a kernel of, you know, actual sympathetic humanity.

I disagree on Final Crisis
by eveelcapitalist
Aug 15th, 2008
06:08:12 AM
"If you want your stories wrapped up by the end of the comic, I invite you to revel in the madcap shenanigans of Archie..." What I do like out of my comics are coherent narratives that don't stumble along drunkenly reaching for something to fall against. Jesus, this story is a fucking joke. I read an interview where Morrison stated that Final Crisis is the sequel to Seven Soldiers of Voctiry. Alright, I picked that up. THAT series was a fucking joke. If the ending of FC is anything like the ending of Secen Soldiers, we're gonna be left scratching our heads and only the honest among us won't be fellating Morrison. Morrison is just cashing in on his popularity. DC is cashing in on Morrison's popularity and the popularity of anything labeled "Crisis." Idiot fanboys are lapping this shit up. Three issues in and it feels like prelude. A fucking $12 dollar (and tax) prelude. Once Morrison is finished with this, he's stated that he's leaving super-hero titles behind (excepot Batman). Translation, he's milked the fans for all their worth so now he's gonna go back to doing shit no one will read (except Batman, cause he's gotta keep his name out there somehow). Thank you, Grant fucking Morrison! (I'd drop this shit right now, but because I had it on my pull list, and my dealer has already ordered through #6 and I'm locked in through then. Might as well go until the end, ay? At least I'll feel justified in bitching so much about this series.)
The Boys and Final Crisis/Seven Soldiers
by Joenathan
Aug 15th, 2008
10:42:10 AM
I was referring to Butcher, Arkhangelsk, the Homelander is just another boring retread of the tired, old "superman is an asshole" trope. Oh, is he a racist and misogynist? How edgy... ANYWAY...

As for the Seven soldiers/Final Crisis hate, how exactly are the two series a joke? You never go into anything but vageries. Lets get into it, because I bet you've got nothing but Morrison hate to rely on.
I can't help but wonder if perhaps the complexity of both series is what truly fosters your anger? That perhaps the lack of easy spoonfed answers is what really upsets you.

Also, the reason Morrison gets to write these big crossover and major character books now is because lots of people read the "shit no one will read". Maybe you should check them out, try a few difficult stories on for size, for once, give your mind a work out. The Invisibles is fantastic.
Well, Seven Soldiers did have a weak, confusing ending
by Homer Sexual
Aug 15th, 2008
12:33:39 PM
The beginning was awesome, as were all the minis, as I have stated. But the end was confusing and a letdown. Since I enjoyed everything leading up to the conclusion so much, I could overlook the weak ending, but so far FC hasn't been anywhere near the 7 Soldiers, and I am disappointed to read that Morrison actually considers FC a sequel. BTW, Barry Allen is not in 7 Soldiers. The 7 Soldiers have barely appeared in FC, and only Mister Miracle seems to have much to do with it.
DC
by Bluejack
Aug 15th, 2008
12:55:07 PM
Besides green Lantern, I have dropped most DC titles from my list. There is zero ground level appeal to the stories as they are all tied in to some maxi. Iron Fist, Captain America, Daredevil, Nova and other marvel titles can make sense without the constant multiverse shaking, character dying/rebirthing goings on. The time traveling/multiverse gimick really ruins a comic for me.
never understood this argument.
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 15th, 2008
01:07:56 PM
People saying that Morrison's work is confusing just, well, confuses me. Sure, the final chapter of Seven Soldiers was a bit rushed and could have used more breathing room, but confusing it wasn't. Same goes for anyone who's ever blamed The Invisibles of being non-sensical.

If you CAN'T understand The Invisibles, it's because you don't WANT to understand it.

I'll admit that Final Crisis is far from being Morrison's best, but it's still a great story.

Butcher is the Homelander. They're just different sides of the same coin. Wee Hughie is the balance. And Ennis actually likes Superman, re: his guest appearances in Hitman.
But wasn't Mister Miracle's return the point?
by Joenathan
Aug 15th, 2008
01:09:37 PM
Thats what I took it as. I will admit the ending of Seven Soldiers was a little loose, but it was also obviously opened ended and we all knew Morriosn was doing this, so I assumed Mister Miracle's rebirth was just the bridge to FC and that, for the most part, the "sequel" aspect of Final Crisis is just him, not nessecarily the whole of Seven Soldiers. I assumed, with Darkseid being involved, that Mister Miracle was reborn because his work wasn't doen, as highlighted by the fact that Seven Soldiers never really wrapped up.

Who claimed Barry was in Seven Soldiers? Not me.
I loved the Invisibles, but not the Boys
by Joenathan
Aug 15th, 2008
01:21:52 PM
Bloody Hell in America was my favorite.

Butcher/Homelander: Being the same side of the coin just illustrates Ennis's self hatred to me. They're the same, but Homelander is scum and Butcher is The Man. Why? Whats the difference between the two of them? Is it the cape? Is that what Ennis hates? The tights? The costume? The celbritism? The false proclamation of selfless civil service? Butcher is lauded for these same foibles and yet minus the little bits to show him in a bad light. No racial epitaths, no rape, nothing, so I don't buy the meta-statement. I think its nothing but superhero hate which is the part I just don't understand. Why not quit writing them? Stick to your war comics. Write a novel, just quit whining about how silly it is to wear a costume and fight crime as if we're all not already aware of that fact.
I've decided the confusion in Morrison's writing...
by Laserhead
Aug 15th, 2008
03:04:10 PM
...is most often due to the artist being unable to convey the information Grant wants in a single panel. I'm speaking of latter day Morrison, who jams every panel with as much content as possible, layering things more than he used to. When I've had the chance to compare his scripts to the finished artwork, I often say, "THAT's what that was supposed to be?!?" Tony Harris is dropping the ball this way in R.I.P., where almost every scene is a clue. Morrison's ideas and story aren't really confusing; it's just that some major plot points are conveyed only through visual cues (see FC), and most of his artists don't seem to give those visual cues the focus necessary to be understood as plot points.

For the record, I am thoroughly enjoying FC... but... these first three issues could have been one issue.

Well Said On Morrison Laser But...
by optimous_douche
Aug 15th, 2008
06:06:42 PM
I'll put the bloat of the first three issues of FC on editorial as opposed to writer.

Shit Countdown (the parts of it worthwhile) could have been about 10 issues in total. And 52, c'mon 26 would have been just enough.

Double the books though, and you double the cash.

Rushed?
by Homer Sexual
Aug 15th, 2008
06:22:46 PM
No one loved 7 Soldiers more than me, but to say the finale was rushed? It came out so many months late! How could that be rushed? That is part of the problem...if it stuck to a schedule/deadline, then fine, it could be rushed.

Of course Barry wasn't in 7 Soldiers. Seven Soldiers was good. He's in FC. FC is less good.

I stand by my assertion that the end was confusing, and not because I don't want to understand, and not because I'm dumb. I'll buy the claim that the artist can't draw everything Morrison is trying to convey, but then that is partly Morrison's fault, too, IMO.

I will also buy that Mr. Miracle is the link between 7S and FC, but then FC isn't really a sequel.

Right on, Laserhead...
by Ambush Bug
Aug 15th, 2008
06:46:33 PM
Every time I read one of Morrison's high concept stories like 7 Soldiers and now Final Crisis and RIP, I sense that there really is a miscommunication going on between the writer and the artist. I always feel as if there are a few crucial panels missing from the equation. I don't know if it's because of the artists he chooses to work with or maybe that artists (and fans for that matter) are just too scared of looking stupid by saying they don't understand what's going on, but since this has occurred with different artists I think it has to do with Morrison's difficulty in communicating what he wants the image to be on the page adn here he's going with it. It's not that I don't get what he's doing, it's that often times I feel as if what Morrison sees as his story and what's on the page aren't exactly the same. It may not be morrison's fault (and ultimately it isn't) since he is so close to the project, he may not realize that the panels seem plot-holey. In that case, its the editor's job to try to read the story without his page long inside explanation of what's going on to see if the mesage is clear. Somewhere along the way, someone is dropping the ball and the readers are the victims here because I'll bet with better communication, there would be a more compelling story going on. Comics are often best told in bold strokes. If Morrison is going for the subtle, then he damn well better communicate them to his artist as clear as possible. if not, a lesser artist and probably a good artist can miss it. The result is the final issue of 7 Soldiers and major portions of FC and RIP.
Butcher *isn't* The Man.
by SleazyG.
Aug 15th, 2008
08:23:58 PM
In fact, by the end of the first issue, I was reasonably sure that the end of THE BOYS will entail Wee Hughie needing to take Butcher down for being well over the line. Will Hughie succeed? Fair question, and I think having him fail would be a more powerful statement than having him win. But I have little question at all that while Butcher and his mission may have been righteous initially, by the end we'll see he's no better than those he takes out.

Which, it seems to me, is Ennis starting a metacommentary on his own work over in THE PUNISHER--we all know Frank Castle is far worse than those he's taken out, but he's doing it for the good guys. Does that automatically make him one? Does it counterbalance his being a sick, violent, murdering, heartless machine? I think The Butcher's being used to explore that very dilemma, and I think in the end it'll be Wee Hughie vs. The Butcher, last man (if any) standing.

and now for something completely different
by Arkhangelsk
Aug 15th, 2008
11:14:19 PM
does anyone here read Criminal? Issue #4 of v.2 also came out last week. Any noir lovers out there?
Bug
by Laserhead
Aug 16th, 2008
07:25:34 AM
Exactly. "Panels missing" is the recurring feeling I've had with Morrison's work since he returned to DC.
Morrison's miscommunication
by Joenathan
Aug 17th, 2008
02:00:25 PM
Phil Jimenez never seemed to have a problem... but I agree, I think at times, Morrison oversteps the amount of space he has available, or his artist may not get it or sometimes Editorial is too constraining or sometimes its a combination. BUT thats comics, they're not novels, a little filling in of the blanks is sometimes needed.

We'll see on the metacommentary, if so, then I'll congratualte him, but I don't believe it and yes, Butcher is The Man, he walks in everywhere and owns the place, he threatens whoever he wants too and gets away with it. Things go his way by sheer force of will. He's not The Man in the sense of the police (although he kind of is, to superheroes at least) hes the The Man like Shaft was the man. Can you dig it?
I dig it, but remain unconvinced.
by SleazyG.
Aug 18th, 2008
08:46:35 PM
I know exactly what you mean, but I think Garth's intention is to set this guy up so that he seems that way on the surface but deep down he's abusing his power and people loathe him for it. You can only be a cocky, smartassed, superpowered bully for so long before it starts to rot you from the inside. Butcher *seems* like The Man at first, but I'm absolutely certain that he's not, and I'm also certain that's intentional.
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