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More BABYLON 5 On The Way!! Whoo-Hoo??

First to say by Jersquall	Feb 25th, 2008 10:02:25 PM
BABYLON 5: THE LOST TALES was bad.. like B5 but that was a waste of time.
Cool! by skywalkerfamily	Feb 25th, 2008 10:05:18 PM
I liked the first DVD. The first episode kinda sucked, but the Sheridan one was great.
Yay, more DVDs Herc can product link to now! by YackBacker	Feb 25th, 2008 10:07:12 PM
Amazon loves you guys! You make the geeks go clickety-click for cash!
YackBacker for the F'N WIN! by Pennsy	Feb 25th, 2008 10:10:43 PM
That was priceless. :)
FARSCAPE by Shermdawg	Feb 25th, 2008 10:29:11 PM

totally inaccurate... by jccalhoun	Feb 25th, 2008 10:34:15 PM
Here's exactly what the article linked to says: When asked about more live action “Babylon 5,” Straczynski said Warner Bros has finally noticed the franchise makes money and is interested in doing more in that universe. The recent Writer’s strike prevented more work from happening, as the studio did not commission a script before the strike action began. To me that doesn't sound like "More Babylon 5 on the way!!" but more like "More Babylon 5 on the way?" Warner Brothers wanted to do another one before the strike. There's no word on what they want to do now.
I'd rather see by br1947	Feb 25th, 2008 10:36:51 PM
the original B5 get a effects upgrade. If they can do it to 40 yo Star Trek (which I quite enjoy as well), Babylon 5 shouldn't be any problem at all.
More Farscape and Firefly would rock too... by br1947	Feb 25th, 2008 10:38:10 PM

Sex and the City by KoolerThanJesus	Feb 25th, 2008 10:38:26 PM
So umm... how about some news on the Sex and the City movie? I care about it more than B5 unless JMS finally decides to write the Telepath War.
Piles and piles of ugh by Heckles	Feb 25th, 2008 10:45:42 PM
Never watched this show, I have no idea why this crap keeps getting rolled out. Meanwhile, doesn't a Deep Space Nine special sound tits at this point? Is Avery Brooks really that busy?
Herc gotsta get paid on Amazaon by Heckles	Feb 25th, 2008 10:47:50 PM
Makes millions of pennies per year on the clickety click. Trick is, if you see something you like, just go to Amazon on your own. Damn the man.
Bottom Line by Geekgasm	Feb 25th, 2008 10:48:17 PM
Real people don't want to see TV shows about space stations. Movies, yes, as long as the space stations are Death Stars.
Heckles, if you've never watched it, how can you criticize it? by Stile	Feb 25th, 2008 10:50:15 PM
I'll agree that Seasons 1 and 5 had their issues (but each still had gems in the rough), but Seasons 2 - 4 of Babylon 5 are some of the finest science fiction ever aired on television. Do me a favor. Watch one episode: "The Coming of Shadows" and then tell me that it's crap. Also, a DS9 special would be tits. What? I like B5 and DS9. So shoot me.
Heckles, you should try it, seriously by br1947	Feb 25th, 2008 10:54:54 PM
Effects blow, and the first season was kinda slow, but once everything clicked in place it was a wild ride. Set the stage for long running series arcs like LOST (also featured a much hotter Miran Furlan incidentally). Do agree with you on a need for a DS9 special, I'd settle for an animated DTV at this point.
Come to think of it... by br1947	Feb 25th, 2008 10:56:57 PM
Daniel Dae Kim was on Crusade. Any other LOST/B5 connections anyone else can think of?
Bab 5 was pretty cool at the time by Doctor Zoidberg	Feb 25th, 2008 11:04:05 PM
But it doesn't stand up very well to time. They should just make Babylon 6 already
Yea!!!!!!!! The First DVD was good! by warp11	Feb 25th, 2008 11:22:18 PM
The first DVD was a few great stories all pulled together. Heck, the new intro alone was amazing. This next DVD is going to be amazing!
Crusade needs some closure by KnightShift	Feb 25th, 2008 11:47:14 PM
I can understand JMS not wanting to approach the Crusade dead horse anew but still... some revelation of what happened with that thread of B5 lore - the Drakh plague, etc. - would be appreciated. Longtime AICN readers will no doubt remember the unforgivable corporate FUBAR that TNT did with Crusade (and I always thought that Glen Oliver did a terrific job in chronicling what happened with that). So all these years I've wondered: will Crusade ever get addressed/have some resolution brought to it? Sounds like JMS is going to cut it loose completely, unfortunately. But hey, we're getting more Babylon 5, so I won't complain.
I worked at a TV Station that played that show.... by Playkins	Feb 25th, 2008 11:52:41 PM
...and the programming director used to purposely preempt it and change it's timeslot ALL THE TIME because she hated all the people that used to call in and demand that it play at certain times. I think it was kind of her "fuck you" to the fanboys.
B5 Ain't Been Good Since Season 4 by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 25th, 2008 11:52:53 PM
Only Seasons 2 through 4 are any good, and the only good "movie" was In the Beginning. I don't have high hopes for this.
Crusade and Rangers Sucked, Too by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 25th, 2008 11:53:25 PM
Really bad. Really really bad sucky fucky.
new episode needs more lasers by Meatbiscuit	Feb 25th, 2008 11:56:17 PM
always loved the space lasers in babylon 5. pew pew.
They should make a prequel called B4 by Stereotypical Evil Archer	Feb 25th, 2008 11:57:20 PM
dry humor
Heckles... by tensticks	Feb 25th, 2008 11:58:48 PM
They need to do more Babylon 5 BEFORE they do more Deep Space Nine, otherwise, what will Deep Space Nine rip off? (Especially since Ron Moore is rather busy on a much better show now...)
Hey Fuckstick, er, I mean tensticks... by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 26th, 2008 12:01:27 AM
How did DS9 rip off B5? Other than having a huge story arc, they were completely different. I enjoyed them both very much.
I'll take B5 over any further BSG... by ComputerGuy68	Feb 26th, 2008 12:04:18 AM
just to not have to endure the fucking "shaky cam" and zoom in on Starbucks ugly face every five minutes.
And I'll take DS9 over BSG too... by ComputerGuy68	Feb 26th, 2008 12:12:01 AM
,,,(o_o),,\|,,
It's quite simple... by CeejayNightwing	Feb 26th, 2008 12:17:47 AM
Those who watched B5 know how great a sci-fi show it was, way better than all that degeneate Star Trek shows they made after the class act that was ST:TNG by a long mile. Those who neve watched it simply can't fathom how great it became or have a single clue what a monolith in TV series they missed at the time. B5 was the first show to actually plan a story from start to finish, a 5 year story; none of this making it up as you go along crap that they do with regular TV shows. And B5 depicted realistic battles in space without having ships fly a they would in an atmosphere like in Star Wars and practically every other scifi film or TV-show did at the time. That said, the absolute shit they kept producing after the show had finished simply to capatalise on the B5 name and fame was utter bollocks! Crusade, Legend of the Rangers and even last years dire direct to DVD release of Lost Tales were all shows worthy of the label "Just another Star Trek clone" To be fair the Lost Tales were actually more like B5 episodes but they were the worst kind of B5 Episodes overly scripted and not worthy of purchasing for their content. There are things pertaining to the original B5 tale that fans want to see like the Telepath War, Valen and the first Shadow War, The end of Londo's reign as Emperor and the tales of the fates of the original Babylon stations before B5 etc. JMS needs to stop making up crap to stick onto the pre-established stuff with some loose cohesive plot, and instead address the stuff he never got to finish or elaborate on from the original show. And Yes, an effects update would be a treat but most of B5 FX still hold up to today such was the quality of their ground breaking use of CGI as the show grew. And one more note for JMS - STOP USING CAPTAIN LOCKLEY, she was a crap replacement for Ivanova, she never worked and it every time you see her on B5 all we think of is how much better it would be if it was Ivanova. Ivanova had too many important ties to the original story to simply replace her with this cardboard supermodel in a uniform. If you can't get Claudia Christenson back to do the part then get a replacement actress and do the character and b5 some justice!
Stile & br1947 by Heckles	Feb 26th, 2008 12:18:08 AM
To be perfectly honest, you're both right, I should at least have a qualified opinion. It is kind of jackass to spout about something that I've never seen before. Suppose B5 just looked lame at the time and I was a big DS9 guy. Plus you both like DS9 so I suppose I should at least check some of B5 out. Hell, there's plenty of time until any new BSG, right? And an animated DS9 deal would work. To be, the show stomps on Voyager and can hold a candle to TNG. Seasons 5-7 are the stuff.
tensticks by Heckles	Feb 26th, 2008 12:19:36 AM
Heh, I actually laughed, good times on that. I remember having this same argument a decade ago on old AOL message boards. Balls. What have I done with my life?
Do I dare bring up Farscape, or will this Talkback explode? by Heckles	Feb 26th, 2008 12:21:50 AM
And if anyone mentions Stargate, I will spit venom through the internets and burn your fingers.
Queefer Bukkake.. by CeejayNightwing	Feb 26th, 2008 12:40:20 AM
Years before B5 got its pilot off the ground while it was still in presentation stages, the producers of Star Trek got wind of its possible competition to the then king of scifi ST:TNG. They decided to present a show to a very sick Gene Rodenberry (who later died) of their own Space Station that would beat B5 to the air and be a grittier version of Star Trek where they can have lots of battles and fights. Basically all the things that Gene spent his entire years getting away from with his utopian view of Star Trek. Naturally he told them to go F$5K themselves and explained that a space station is not Star Trekking and a universe full of aliens dedicated to war and evil empires is exactly what the original producers of ST ruined his original series with and what he was determined never to happen with ST:TNG. ..However once the great Bird of the Galaxy passed away not soon after, they rapidly kicked the DS9 idea into gear, seedd the main enemy into an episode of ST:TNG giving the show its first Alien race that were simply commited to war and evil (at this point GR was spinning in his grave/space capsule) and then threw DS9 prematurely onto the airwaves with its radical boiler-suits and Deep Space stations that somehow replaced every original StarBase that existed in the original ST story lines. Unfortunately for DS9 it never had a plan and simply followed the same old, make it up as you got route of most TV shows. B5 however did have a 5 year story to tell and it was basically the equivalent of Lord of the Rings in space. B5 was not a utopian show by nature, it had wars, battles covert ops, sex and violence etc. DS9 couldn't match that level of drama under the utopian umbrella of the current ST universe so it went against the ST Bible as witten by Roddenberry and simply kept making up more bad guys and evil races until eventually they regressed the core of Star Fleet into the humans we are today just to make the stories dramatic enough to match B5. Sure fan boys love the DS9 conflict after conflict crap but ST ceased being ST from the day they made DS9, human progression and all that fine work they put into ST:TNG learning to write clever stories for a far more advanced race of humans who can sort problems without wars all ended. Lies, Deciet and more covert ops were easy tools to make an excuse for a space battle every copule of weeks and pump up viewing figures that prove people want more Star Warring and less Star Trekking, so what the frack does Gene Roddenberry know?
"Babylon 5 was a big pile of shit!" by Brians Life	Feb 26th, 2008 12:45:07 AM
"GET OUT!" "YAAAAY!" Spaced? Anyone? Eh. Saw a few episodes here and there. I've heard good things, and I respect that it was more of a saga than stand-alones ala star trek, but never got into it. C'est la vie.
What have I done with my life? by tensticks	Feb 26th, 2008 12:45:55 AM
Yeah, the history of the "which one was first", B5 or DS9 is an old debate and pretty well chronicled (wikipedia has a good entry on it, and if you go to www.midwinter.com and use their search feature for the B5 portion, you can call up lots of posts about it from the time). But I firmly believe that B5 and Twin Peaks laid the foundation for everything good that's happened in TV in the last decade-plus--from X-Files to Buffy to Firefly to Farscape to Lost to BSG. In any case, glad the post made you laugh. It's not worth fighting about. And now that Berman is gone, I certainly think the "you can't be a B5 AND Star Trek fan" mentality--which he and Paramount both fanned as opposed to quenched--is pretty much old news. But historical facts are facts. (oh, and I have done something with my life, despite being a geek...or perhaps because of it...)
that first DVD was horrible by BrowncoatJedi	Feb 26th, 2008 12:47:07 AM
I am a Babylon 5 fan and even I couldn't defend that. I hope the next is way better.
Crusade is only $14.76.... by Cartagia	Feb 26th, 2008 12:54:31 AM
over at DeepDiscount.com right now.
JMS said nothing about more Lost Tales by NNNOOO!!!	Feb 26th, 2008 12:55:26 AM
I was there on Saturday and while Straczynski got a lot of humor out of the idea that Warners is ' starting to notice B5' he had a lot more to say about other projects. Most notably that Clint Eastwood committed to shooting "The Changeling" without rewrites and that it's 'very nice' that Ron Howard happens to have secured the screen rights to 'Lensman'.
CeejayNightwing by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 26th, 2008 01:02:36 AM
Thanks for the history, but I knew all this. Not sure what your point is. Both shows were extremely dissimilar. DS9 was still original in its approach, even if it was "inspired" by B5. Who give a fuck what Roddenberry wanted? The man was out of touch by then. DS9 was bold for not following the Roddenbery formula. Fuck Roddenberry.
give heroes to jms by bacci40	Feb 26th, 2008 01:12:10 AM
shit, 2 different series borrow heavily from rising stars and still no one will make it...so fire kring and hire jms...he will fix the series
TLT 1.0 was weak... by SG7	Feb 26th, 2008 01:27:17 AM
...It was so bad. I was feeling kinda bummed after watching it.
Brians life by jmyoung666	Feb 26th, 2008 01:32:30 AM
I got it. That is one of the few lines I still remember from when he wanted to get fired from the store. It was basically, "Oh yeah, that's easy. Hey ________, Babylon 5 was a big pile of shit." "Get Out" Funny stuff.
The soundtrack was better than the DVD by skywalkerfamily	Feb 26th, 2008 01:33:59 AM
The soundtrack kicks ass. Check it out on itunes for some good listening,
B5: TLT by smellmycheese	Feb 26th, 2008 02:40:01 AM
It was overwritten and under-produced... but that's always been the case with B5. JMS seriously needs to have a senior script editor to keep him in check. But if you can turn a blind eye to its budget appearance (compared to other genre shows), B5 is TV science fiction's best kept secret. Yes, season 1 was slow - but it is significantly better retrospectively. Season 5 was tedious and shit and apart from the odd Londo/G'kar scene is better forgotten. As is everything that's followed because it's simply strayed too far away from what made B5 great - the superb story arcs of seasons 2 - 4. I saw a glimmer of that return in B5:TLT and while it was only a glimmer I'm somewhat keen to see if the old magic can return with future installments. If it doesn't, well, it was a brave attempt... because no matter what the future holds B5 s2-4 will always be top drawer.
Claudia Christian and JMS by Sprout	Feb 26th, 2008 05:42:26 AM
I Claudia at a Memorabilia event a couple of years back and asked about her involvement with The Lost Tales and she said something like "oh I think Joe's still mad with me so I don't think he'll be asking me".
I liked it by Dazzler69	Feb 26th, 2008 06:38:00 AM
But we need more of a movie than tales.
I'd take SPACE PRECINCT over B5! by Lemming	Feb 26th, 2008 07:34:37 AM
Yeah, you heard me!
I wish they would get Claudia back by jccalhoun	Feb 26th, 2008 08:42:51 AM
They need to get over it and make the fans happy by including Claudia in a future project. That alone would get fans to buy it just to see her character again.
BALLS?!! by Fried Gold	Feb 26th, 2008 08:56:36 AM
The first "Lost Tales" was a bit crapola and should really have remained "lost". The next ones apparently have more room to be ambitious about production values. As long as it's not another "Garibaldi deals with issues related to alcoholism" story...
The direct to DVD B5 sucked ass by ATARI	Feb 26th, 2008 08:59:27 AM
I wanted to like it, but man was it boring, and had no production value at all. B5 is dead, let it go JMS.
Word ATARI by WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR	Feb 26th, 2008 09:47:32 AM
Just let it go. I was a big fan of B5 and stood by it throughout the shitfest fifth season, but everything else to do with the show - save a possible complete Crusade - is just crap to the point of embarrassment. I don't know why JMS doesn't just take the plunge and tell the Telepath War or Drakh War stories in full instead of trying to layer more stuff on. If he really is making a breakthrough with it other output then just leave B5 be, like he should have done when Crusade died.
Crusade was good.... by JKrow21	Feb 26th, 2008 10:02:35 AM
Not great but it had several episodes that showed great potential for the future. The first season of Babylon 5 was terrible and should have probably been cancelled but they thankfully gave it a shot and the show really bloomed. Hopefully JMS gives us some sort of conclusion!!!
Oh and Lost Tales wasn't that bad either... by JKrow21	Feb 26th, 2008 10:04:55 AM
It was pretty boring and didn't really feature much action but it was still a B movie. Wasn't terrible writing or anything just felt kind of pointless.
Mr. Garobaldiiiiiiiiiiii by picardsucks	Feb 26th, 2008 10:29:23 AM
Hope we have a Mr. Garobaldi tale fucking up Mr. Chekov real good
I agree with those who thought it was a let-down by brotherbradshaw	Feb 26th, 2008 10:43:10 AM
I really did love the series. That made the first DVD of lost tales such a huge letdown. If he can't do better than that, I think he should quit right now.
Claudia burned her bridges by mbeemer	Feb 26th, 2008 11:11:23 AM
She tried to hold them up and then lied about it so she wouldn't lose her fans. I doubt JMS wants to work with someone who tried to screw him over.
Last one was an underproduced boring shit feast by Pixelsmack	Feb 26th, 2008 12:44:18 PM
I mean it was laughable; the level of production value. The story was a SNOOOOOOOZE.
Hating on Lost Tales by gboybama	Feb 26th, 2008 01:19:43 PM
Hopefully, they'll make more. I thought the Lochley story was decent. There's a demon on the station. And it actually didn't end up being some dimestore alien pretending to be a demon. It was an actual demon from Hell. (Wasn't it?) This little story went all the way where many a sci fi tale has wussed out. The Sheridan thing was decent. Nothing earth shattering. It was just sort of nice to be reunited with old friends. Everything from the cadence of the speech to the effects seemed like putting on a favorite pair of shoes. Of course, I was a fan of everything that came before, save most of Season 5, Thirdspace, Legend of the Rangers and River of Souls.
FX Upgrade for the original series please! by Antz	Feb 26th, 2008 01:30:58 PM
I'd happily fork out the $ again for the whole series in Hi-Def with new FX. The FX were great in the later seasons, but were still low-res. I'd still pay for any new show too, and I agree, give him a shot at Heroes.
Just do a 2 hour movie by skywalkerfamily	Feb 26th, 2008 01:52:11 PM
I'm tired of these little 30 minute snoozefests.
Is the villain a comic book editor? by tonagan	Feb 26th, 2008 02:12:07 PM

Deep Space Nine direct-to-DVD by snowpuff	Feb 26th, 2008 03:10:02 PM
This would be an amazing idea, probably sell extremely well, et cetera. Which is probably why we'll never see it. Paramount has always allowed the Trek brand to be run without any innovation, understanding of the fans and so on. Not including Mr. Abrams stab with the new Trek movie, Paramount has never known what they were doing with this franchise and apparently that is unlikely to change...
The Case of the Missing Talkbacks by ZeroCorpse	Feb 26th, 2008 04:39:37 PM
Torchwood? Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles? Good episodes of these two shows are airing right now, this season, and all we ever see are Talkbacks for Herc's Angel/Buffy collection on DVD, and speculation on shows that may, possibly end up on television in a year or two. I mean, B5 is good news, but I just watched a pretty damn good episode of TtSCC and there's not a word about the show on here. Really, this section needs to be renamed from "Coax" to "Stuff Herc Likes" because the coverage is uneven, at best. And need I say it? If a Whedon project were still on television, it would get three Talkbacks a week. You KNOW I'm right.
No slight on Merrick, of course. by ZeroCorpse	Feb 26th, 2008 04:41:30 PM
I can't say I've seen Merrick ever go all weird and runny over Whedon's work, and his reports are usually pretty worthwhile. I'm just lamenting the fact that these days, Coax is less about what's on TV, and more about what one particular viewer wishes were still on TV.
Torchwood! by SysCrusher1	Feb 26th, 2008 05:55:37 PM
I love Capt. Jack... and I'm a homophobe!!! Seriously though I have about everything B5 that can be had, and look forward to the next disc. The do need to finish Crusade... !#@$%~ TNT! But I really do like Torchwood and the Dr Who is pretty addictive. Hopefully the find a way to bring John Simm's "Master" back. Looking forward to seeing Martha this week, and Donna, Martha, Rose & Jack in season 4... It ought to be starting around the end of March on YouTube for us in the States.
Please hire more extras. by skywalkerfamily	Feb 26th, 2008 06:34:28 PM
The station looked like a ghost town.
VORLON GIANT ROBOTS!!!!! by TomBodet	Feb 26th, 2008 07:28:30 PM
We like it.
Centauri buttsecks?? by JKrow21	Feb 26th, 2008 07:48:56 PM
Lando on top.
Queefer Bukkake- similarities by TheSecondQuest	Feb 26th, 2008 07:49:21 PM
In just broadstrokes, you have similarities in the seasonal structure of events- the introduction and build up to a great war with a newly encounetred powerful race (Shadow War/Dominion War), a specially designed warship is introduced in the 3rd season to fight in said coming battles (Defiant/White Star), had a main captain who eventually ascends into a higher state of being after fulfilling prophecies, both were set on commerce hub stations near a gateway of some kind (wormhole or jumpgate), both initially had shapeshifter characters (dropped in B5 to avoid seeming like they were copying DS9), both featured two races recently occupying or opressing the other, among others (a more detailed list can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/3azy6y ); Additonally, DS9 cast and crew privately acknowledged to JMS that they knew their show was based on B5 and encouraged them to keep things up.
SecondQuest by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 26th, 2008 09:35:20 PM
Thanks for the examples. Yeah, they have some serious similarities, but DS9 still did it very differently, and very well sometimes, though not the conclusion. Yuck on the finale. But they had enough originality and good stories to hold their own with B5, in my opinion. I love them both. I own B5, and if DS9 were affordable, I'd own it too. Anyway, thanks!
You can enjoy this shit but... by CeejayNightwing	Feb 26th, 2008 11:27:50 PM
DS9 wasn't Star Trek at all, it was a show made to counter another TV show they were scared would beat ST in the ratings. So they made a show not based on ST principles and stuck the ST logo on it. You can do that with any popular show in its own genre but it doesn't make it true to the source. I can make a teen drama like the O.C and stick the entire cast in new Star Fleet costumes and change every other pre existing show around it to have the same costumes and stick the Star Trek logo on it but it wouldn't be Star Trek! You can say "Fuck Roddenbery" but the fact is he knew ST better than anyone because he invented the damn thing, ST:TNG became what it was because of his guidance and it showed his true vision of what he intended with the original series. That world and DS9's world are not the same, there Star Fleets are not the same, there presentation of human beings are not the same, ST is a show of human progression, DS9 is a show of human regression. DS9 is its own show simply capitalizing on the name of Star Trek that Roddenberry created and forever trying to mimic the show it was invented to counteract; i.e B5. B5 ran circles around it in every area and even when they stole B5's FX company for their last two seasons so they could mimic there quality space-battles, B5 still out-did them with far more dramatic conflicts.
CeejayNightwing by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 26th, 2008 11:32:57 PM
DS9 was Star Trek as far as I and most other fans are concerned. It was nice to see them get away from the sanitized Federation world of fucking Boy Scouts and get gritty and real for once. The crappy tepid drama of TOS and STNG had gotten boring and overdone, not to mention preachy. FUCK RODDENBERRY!
GAWD, I hate this argument by ninga	Feb 26th, 2008 11:36:19 PM
Let me just preface this little rant by saying I have no doubt that DS9 ripped off the novel part of B5 -- the problem is they did it AFTER the shows came out. The novel part of B5 isn’t the premise and setting, it’s the story arc. They became an arc driven show after Piller left to work on Voyager and after B5 was getting good press and interest from the sf fan community in a show that had a bigger story to tell. THAT’S when DS9 with a middle-child complex decided to follow suit, not before. Why is it any discussion about B5 isn’t complete without dredging up this tired-ass “DS9 is a straight rip-off” argument? Why hasn’t anyone thought of the fact that all this bullshit is more than a just little self-serving for JMS? Don’t get me wrong I’m a fan of his work, but how deluded do you have to be to say, The doctor in my original story was East Indian and Dr. Bashir is middle eastern, so therefore I was ripped off. Okay, so by that token, Crusade was a rip-off of the original Star Trek because of such “eerie” similarities as: “Both have ships named Excalibur” and “Both feature Asians in prominent roles.” Doesn’t anyone find it just a little suspicious that whatever this document is which explained the entire B5 concept and story arc lock-stock-and-barrel in minute detail for Paramount to conveniently “rip-off” was so easily turned over to them and yet has never surfaced anywhere else? The story arc notes JMS worked from would be the Holy Grail of science fiction television’s creative documents, but noone’s ever seen it so they can make an informed decision whether or not JMS was ripped off by Piller and Berman. I suspect it’s because it would undermine the “every coincidence is evidence of theft” argument, so it will never be seen. That’s not to say if it came out tomorrow and proved me wrong, I wouldn’t be more than happy to eat my words... it just doesn’t seem likely. Short of that, we only have one side of the so-called “triple-edged sword.”
ninga by Queefer Bukkake	Feb 26th, 2008 11:46:20 PM
I'm with you. I like both shows and it pisses me off when somebody has to bash one when talking about the other. Ripoff elements or not, DS9 was nothing like B5. They shouldn't even be compared, but I didn't start it. Some other baby-fisting sick freak did that. I was only defending DS9 against the vast ignorance of its critics.
Foundation's CGI on Star Trek by ninga	Feb 26th, 2008 11:52:44 PM
B5's Foundation Imaging wasn't stolen by Star Trek, Netter formed his own effects house and Foundation were conveniently "outbid" for the effects contract by the Executive Producer's own effects company after Thornton and Co. had done all the heavy lifting on design and workflow. Star Trek was just smart enough to pick them up after they were discarded. Not that it really changed much, most of their work in early seasons of Voyager are indistinguishable from composite model shots -- a testament to their talent.
Queefer by ninga	Feb 26th, 2008 11:57:12 PM
Aw, man, I'm not blaming you, this argument is as old as the sun. I've just been hearing it since '94 and very few people are objective about it anymore. I'm with you, I like both shows for their strengths. I don't think it diminishes one to like the other.
Lost Tales wasn't AWESOME by offput	Feb 27th, 2008 12:30:46 AM
But it was welcome and however much JMS can eke out of this universe is exactly the amount I'm ready for.
And regarding DS9 by offput	Feb 27th, 2008 01:05:13 AM
I'm right now going through an epic rewatch of DS9 and the shows are totally different. Aside from the fact that they are both about space stations, the stories, and how they go about telling those stories, there's very little difference. Some of the similarities: The hard-ass second-in-command female who softens as the series progresses; a trusted security officer betrays the station for hidden interests; epic wars which span known space with the respective space station's at the heart of the battle. Oh and they both have numbers in their names. Some of those might seem a little suspicious, but in the long run the stories are drastically different in so many different ways. Even if Paramount took JMS' idea of "a space station of commerce and peace at the centre of an epic war" and told their writers to run with it, the results are very very different.
Finish CRUSADE already! by SpyGuy	Feb 27th, 2008 09:09:51 AM
A Direct-To-DVD movie would be a good way to wrap up the series and finally reveal how Earth is saved from the Drakh plague.
Make you own sentence up out of... by metaluna	Feb 27th, 2008 09:10:49 AM
horse how flog to dead a. Do somethng new, Michael. You're better than this.
Ok, I have to ask. How good is Crusade? by Jonah Echo	Feb 27th, 2008 09:38:08 AM
I tried asking elsewhere and didn't get an answer. I didnt watch B5 in it's initial run, and only recently was reccomended it. That coupled with a 19.00 a season sale at best buy recently spurred me to pick up the whole series. I'm currently watching through season one and while the fx are poor and the acting hammy, Im enjoying most of it-it takes some work to see the stories and ideas peeking out from under the cheese but not too much that it limits my enjoyment. It seems to be a universally acknowledged fact that by season 2, things get good and stay good until season 5 where it slips off a bit. Right now I have no reason to think I wont ultimately enjoy(if not love) the whole series and it seems like a worthwhile investment of the money and time. Crusade is an unknown quantity to me, and I cant find too many that have seen it or will give a straight answer. Deep discount is selling it for 15 bucks, but I was just wondering if I should even bother or the lack of resolution and/or quality will only succeed in frustrating me? Any answers?
Merrick - by Fred_Scuttle	Feb 27th, 2008 11:01:39 AM
I see what you did there.... ?You Whoooo? Poor Lenier....
ninga by TheSecondQuest	Feb 27th, 2008 01:14:49 PM
I doubt Paramount would ever allow or acknowledge the existence of any remaining documents they have regarding JMS's B5 pitch to them, as it would potentially open the door to legal actions (unlikely that JMS or Wb would even pursue sucha thing at this pojnt, but lawyers would probably be cautious). Additionally, JMS's own original notes for B5 were mostly lost when the hotel he was at for a con in the UK threw them away after moving him to a different room without his knowkedge (he had brought the notes with him to start writing Season 5 while he there, as this was the exact same time they were renewed for Season 5 and had to scramble to get everyone resigned yet losing Claudia at the deadline). Those two factors are the most likely reason why you'll never see them surface to end this debate. (and folks, don't get me wrng- I also liked both shows, but the surface similarities are hard to ignore and would ahve an effect on the perception of the shows by casual audiences).
Jonah Echo- Crusade, order, resolution... by TheSecondQuest	Feb 27th, 2008 03:18:27 PM
With exception to 1 or 2 episodes that were either heavily interfered with, or mandated by, TNT, Crusade does have a number of very good episodes- though the episode order you view it in can drastically alter your perception of the series (the original airing order, used on the DVD set, airs things out of order (technology being used in episodes prior to it being discovered, for example) as TNT wanted "their" episodes (the ones they had most influence over) aired first. That order does feel like a mess, jumping around and clumping episodes focusing on the same characters together. The SFC/JMS order (or variants of it), while ignoring uniform consistency, provides a much better story arc and, most importantly, actually conveys character arcs (particularly with Max) that were previously nonexistent. the series as a whole does shed light on aspects of the B5 mythos- info on what happened to the Psi Corps in the wake of the Telepath War, etc. As far as closure on the series' events- there isn't much in the way actually filmed content, unfortunately. The show didn't get a chance to really set up it's major story arc (imagine B5 if you hadn't gotten that 1st season episode where they introduce the Shadows), but we do get info on this in other sources. Most prominently, there are three unfilmed scripts from the show that were briefly available online via a now-defunct website, but they still float around the net. Reading these does provide more closure and a sense of what the show really was leading to. (the three scripts are "To the Ends of the Earth", dealing with a Shadow hybrid ship from the captain's past; "Value Judgements", dealing with a fugitive war criminal named Bester; and "The End of the Line", which would have been the season finale (which resolves things brought up in the TTEOTE script, but does end on a cliffhanger). Further details about what would have happened in later seasons can be found on DVD extra features and commentary tracks (though I believe JMS had them removed from secondary printings of the set after WB violated their agreement to tell the truth about what happened to the show at TNT, and they edited his commentary to remove some of that material). Overall, I think it's worth watching- it's much better than Season 5 (and the A Call to Arms movie that sets up Crusade is actually very good too), and it has a pretty solid cast (the doctor is the only one who really sucks)- Galen is a fan favorite for a reason. As for order, I reccomend this one (which ignores uniform consistency, so they'll swap back and forth between the grey and black ones- it's not that distracting, IMO): 1) Racing the Night; 2) The Memory of War; 3) The Needs of Earth; 4) The Long Road; 5) Visitors from Down the Street; 6) The Well of Forever; 7) Ruling from the Tomb; 8) Patterns of the Soul; 9) Each Night I Dream of Home; 10) The Path of Sorrows; 11) The Rules of the Game; 12) Appearances and Other Deceits; "War Zone" really sucks and was never supposed to exist, so either ignore it, watch it last or watch it first (as it's chronologically set first, a TNT-mandated origins episode).
Meh... by ED2D2	Feb 27th, 2008 04:52:45 PM
The best part of the whole Lost Tales DVD was the opening narration by G'Kar. Everything else was, well, meh...
It was alway interesting to see Trek actors by Grammaton Cleric Binks	Feb 27th, 2008 07:32:11 PM
on B5. Majel Barrett must have respected the show because she would not in any way done anything to harm Gene's legacy. I think her guest spot was a nod to the impact of the sci-fi genre in general, but hey, that's just my opinion.
Lost tales without Andreas Katsulas equals by Grammaton Cleric Binks	Feb 27th, 2008 07:32:59 PM
suckage. There can only be one G'Kar. Pity.
Second Quest by Jonah Echo	Feb 28th, 2008 07:10:24 AM
Thanks. Kind of odd that Gary Cole is in this and the same happened to him back with American Gothic, in that episodes were aired all out of order and when released to dvd they couldnt even be bothered to be placed in narrative order.
Please don't do this! by _Maltheus_	Feb 28th, 2008 05:40:42 PM
I am a huge B5 fan. I'm rewatching it presently and it still holds up quite well IMO. Even S5 is watchable (not that I was willing to pay for it). The thing is, JMS had his moment and it seems that was all he is capable of. These movies all suck on paper and suck even worse on TV. There's one story still worth telling, the Telepath War, but I'm not sure I'd want to see it given how much everything else has degraded. Bow out gracefully dude! This coming from a big fan who even liked season 1.
Teep War has been attempted to be told and still might. by TheSecondQuest	Feb 29th, 2008 02:43:54 PM
There's been several attempts to tell the Teep War within the structure of other stories, but B5's bad luck with spinoff continuations has typically ended said stories before they got a chance to really flesh the Teep War out. For example, Crusade had flashbacks to events during the Teep War (the one flashback was originally going to have Lyta and a mention of Lennier originally, but actress availability forced the role to be rewritten), and one of the aforementioned unfilmed scripts would have dealt with Bester in hiding and a flashback or two to the war and/or it's immediate aftermath with his trial. But TNT's masterful interfucking with the show ended that possibility. Jump ahead a bit and we get the (admitedly subpar) Legend of the Rangers which was set a year or two before the Telepath War and the events of Crusade- had it gone to series, it was intended to be a backdoor means of both telling part of the Teep War and resolving the events of Crusade (or, potentially, resurrecting Crusade itself as a companion series ala the Stargates before there were two Stargate shows), since it's 2nd or 3rd season would have been chronologically set at the same time as those events/show. But, since LOTR aired unexpectedly against one of the highest ratest football games of all time, the East coast ratings for LOTR (despite a pretty respectable showing on the west coast) killed the chance for a Rangers series (some people may say this was a good thing, but there was enough potential with the show that they could have fixed a lot of the problems the movie had- that silly VR weapons system was going to be the first thing to go, for example), so that opportunity was also lost. On the bright horizon for things, JMS has suggested he might do a Teep War story in a future Lost Tales DVD (though I wonder if he'll still save the wider scope of the conflict for the eventual theatrical film).
TheSecondQuest by ninga	Mar 1st, 2008 12:23:58 AM
You're right RE: Paramount. If they were guilty of anything they wouldn't be giving it up. But I'm talking about JMS himself providing the proof. I think what JMS lost in England were the notes he had prepared for Season 5, which he didn't have anywhere else, which is why it was such a devastating loss when they were tossed. But back in the mid-90's when JMS would do interviews he would refer to the fact that he had a 200 page single spaced document he had written out with everything having to do with the story arc in detail (and if memory serves, it was "double-encrypted and kept on a disc in a safe deposit box"). It's unclear what exactly was given to Paramount, but the Season 1 bible and the treatment written in 1987 don't have nearly the detail necessary to replicate the 5 year arc of B5. If he's going to have to provide proof other than a lot of supposition based on dumbed-down coincidences and hearsay. Actors from DS9 came up to JMS and told him their show was based on B5, huh? The whole thing or just the war (I would agree with that) part? And how would they know? Is Berman The Putz in the habit of confessing his sins to his cast? And who are they? Are they in danger of losing their gigs a decade after going off the air if it comes out they "colluded with the enemy"?

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