Everybody 'gotta eat'

I expect he'll go the Carson Daly route and fill the show with extended interviews, more guests, musical segments, stand up comics, vauldville acts (magicians, ventriloquits), and talk show stand-bys like audience segments, cooking demonstrations and some moron from the zoo putting a gila monster on his desk.

Unlike Daly, he'll have to do it twice as long, though.

As for Leno and his ability to think without a staff of writers and a pile of cue cards... that's goona be one sad train wreck.

zero grasp on logic, and basic finance. you're their perfect little bitch, Zoidberg...

the $60,000 salary for WGA members INCLUDES NON WRITING INCOME FROM OTHER GUILDS. that means that someone like, say, David Letterman, who is a WGA member but gets the vast majority of hi income from non-writing gigs, gets his bazillion dollar salary included in the averages bumping it up. not to mention, that the highest paid writers in Hollywood (and in the WGA, obviously) who are paid millions, are also included. writers who haven't worked in a few years, or who are semi-retired, are NOT INCLUDED in the salary averages. so it's probably realistically LESS than $60,000, not more.

you know the joke about how Bill Gates walks into a bar, and suddenly everyone in the bar is, on average, a millionaire? it shows the ineptitude of people using statistics like this improperly. the TV writers are not starving, and none have claimed to be (people just hurl insults around because they're frustrated that some people work in hollywood), but they are getting screwed out of money that they deserve because new technology has not been properly regulated. and that's all this is about. making it fair for writers now that new markets are emerging, just like what happened with TV, just like what happened with cable, or videotapes. this is not new, it is not an anomoly, and it is very necessary.

it's very easy to go "oh you make more money than I do, stop being greedy!!" but the fact of the matter is, the studio bigwigs on the other side of the picket line make a HELL of a lot more than $60,000. and if you think that the money they save by stiffing the WGA members ends up in the pockets of, well, angry cynics like you. you're more than a little mistaken. been to a $10 movie lately?

greed is the name of the game. and if you don't think the guys writing the shows and movies deserve a few bucks, at least more than the fat guy sitting behind a desk signing contracts, then I can't help you...

statistics like this only prove that people confuse their jealousy and greed for someone else's. if someone makes more money than me literally, does that mean he or she is not entitled to fair treatment? the salaries get throw around by the studios (and inflated, as we've seen, by huge amounts) solely to garner support from people who simplisticly look at the numbers and go, "well, they're rich, fuck them for wanting more money!"

throwing the numbers around as though they are the point of all this is simply naive and falling right into the traps of their rhetoric.

I seriously doubt any of them *want* to put their crews and others out of work. But, a strike in any industry has its huge list of pros and cons. The fact that the crew can't work is one of those hard losses.

My dad works in the railroad industry and joined his union on strike a number of times when I was a kid. He always explained to me that he didn't want to strike, but that he and his coworkers needed to send a message to managment. I can't imagine writers are any different (in fact, read James Gunn's MySpace blog... he makes good arguments about the strike's financial effect on *everyone*, not just the writers who happen to be wealthy).

Luckily, Conan is smart by publicly acknowledging the complexities of the situation and explaining his reasons. I respect him much more than if he had simply attempted to bring the show back without an explanation. Like said, it's not an ideal situation, but at least noone loses their jobs.

I guarantee you'd feel differently if you were a writer seeing your stuff "promoted" online, knowing that you'll never see a dime for it.

OK, so it's probably scripted... just let Pierre ramble off the cuff and see what happens. I'm sure it will be golden.

Tonight [tm] and Late Night [tm] are owned by NBC and they're not about to cut a deal with the strikers. Letterman's shows will be written, the NBC shows unscripted.

Totally different deal, as anyone who's glanced at the strike news knows.

It's about all the support staff who can go back to work to support their families. Fuck everything else.

The idea that the only creative members of a show's staff are the writers, actors, director, and producer is ridiculous. Without the foley artist, costumers, makeup artists, special effects artists, set designers, and even the goddamn crafts services people and florists, the writers, actors, producers, and directors would look pretty foolish.

If writers deserve extra money for repeated viewings of their creative efforts, then why shouldn't a foley artist get more money for every time someone listens to their work on an Internet broadcast? Why shouldn't the makeup artist get bonus money every time a photo or image of someone they've made up to look acceptable appears online? And so on.

It's annoying to think that writers-- Who have the easiest creative job on any show-- are the ones screaming for more money, when the people who put actual blood, sweat, and labor into their art are considered lowly "crew" and not part of the creative process.

What changed, then? The WGA told the writers they deserve some of that Internet money, and the writers agreed.

How is this the studios' fault, then? If they offered these people jobs, and contracts with specific terms that did not include Internet residuals, and these people SIGNED ON despite the lack of residuals, then how is it the studios' fault these people are reneging on their previous agreement?

It seems to me the studios kept their end of those deals-- The writers produced scripts and were paid for them, as agreed originally.

The fact is that, while the contracts and agreements suck and the studios are greedy fucks, the writers are making EVERYBODY suffer because they suddenly decided they don't like the terms of the contracts they previously agreed to. This makes it THEIR FAULT. The studio didn't stop payment on their checks-- The writers just decided that the checks weren't good enough.

And again, I think if the writers get residuals, then so should EVERY creative contributor to a television/film project. All or nothing, people. Writers are NOT the only creative contributors here.

Sirmausalot, you said: "Why do many blame the writers for everyone being out of work? They deserve a decent contract."

Yes, they do deserve a decent contract. I don't think people are arguing otherwise. For the most part, I think everyone would agree fairness is a good thing in the job place. But considering they are the ONLY ones on strike and considering they ARE the ones who have entirely caused a complete production shutdown which HAS put EVERYONE ELSE out of work then, yes, I think it goes without saying that the WGA and the writers -- while exercising their union right to strike -- DO deserve ALL the blame for putting everyone out of work. Hey, it's not like the electricians or stage hands or costume designers or food caterers or ANYONE ELSE caused the shutdown. Credit for that alone belongs on the shoulders of only ONE union group. So this is their strike...this is their job action...so in terms of the press or public relations, they ALSO have to take the good with the bad. Which means in this case the heat and blame falls squarely on their shoulders.

"You have no idea about their education (and time and cost thereof, including loans), hours put in on the job, job security, and other issues that make them 'worth' a certain amount. So everyone should lay off that subject because we simply don't have enough information."

Well, first of all, going back to the core emotional point that this whole debate centers on, I would still argue that's no defense for literally putting EVERYONE ELSE out of work and for potentially costing other people their actual jobs and careers, Sirmausalot. That's still no excuse for potentially ruining other people's actual lives or destroying their economic ability to stay afloat. Besides, your core argument that "you don't know what kind of education they have or what loans they still have to pay off" is pointless. Who COULDN'T use that argument? Who HASN'T been in that position? So it's a faulty argument to begin with since its SO broad that it has no real meaning or weight behind it.

In fact, let's take it one step further. The only reason that education often gets tossed about in this debate is because writing is an ART FORM and, yes, you could go to school to perhaps learn more about the history of the art or to hone some particular insights. But the REAL truth is it's still an art form which also means the end product is always going to be up to random subjective taste anyway. Translation: you DON'T HAVE to go to school to be a good writer. Film history clearly demonstrates a SHITLOAD of great writers who did NOT go to the fancy-wancy USC film school (or any film school for that matter) to take screenwriting courses, yet who did just fine as writers all the same.

So is school good? Hey, I'm a firm believer that ALL education is good. But is it a requirement to be a good writer? Do you have to go to USC or NYU to write jokes for Leno or to come up with a proper 45 minute script for THE BIONIC WOMAN? Absolutely not.

"But on average, you might be shocked at the number of hours a typical sitcom writer puts in."

Again, you're putting forth an argument that doesn't carry any real weight since I'm sure that pretty much EVERY working person you could walk up to would have absolutely no problem looking you back in the eyes and replying, "Hey, you might be shocked at how much I have to put in at my job, TOO, buddy."

regulating new technology, and writer's "power" to be equal partners, inasmuch as they are with regular Tv and film, is essential. technology, distribution, access are all going to get stranger and stranger, and if we get down a path where the writer is out of the process completely, it will have lasting effects for decades on those to come.

and I don't see why you and your ilk are ignoring the fact that other guilds are SUPPORTING the writer's strike. I'm sure they're not happy about being off work for a while, but they have all issued statements expressing solidarity with the WGA. so stop bitching on their behalf you guys, unless you know what you're talking about.

and I've said 3 or 4 times, although you seem to keep missing the point, the SALARIES ARE IRRELEVANT. someone being taken advantage of has the write to demand the situation change. all the more so if they pay their WGA dues every year. this is what they pay for. organization and the ability to stand up together to make sure they are not being crapped on.

just like the studios tactics are pointing you towards, you're just regurgitating numbers. "they're rich already, fuck them!" keep on shoveling their shit for them, I guess. saves them the trouble of putting a troll in the talkback spewing their garbage. maybe you should ask them for a small stipend to be in here?

please do us all a favor and read his statement before writing idiotic senseless nonsense. thanks.

That's NO argument either since the corporations and companies are set up as an entirely different economic beast. Basically, your argument is completely off-base since you're saying that since the writers went on strike and production is shut down, then absolutely, positively EVERYONE on ALL SIDES of Hollywood should be equally sent home. But that just isn't true. The studios still have need for the bulk of their personnel for other duties, and besides why should a VP or secretary be losing their job because a writer went on strike? Now you're just making the Hollywood unemployment situation and the California economy even WORSE. Though maybe that's your vision -- if you support the writers THAT much, maybe that's the power you'd like to see them ultimately wielding. Namely, if they go on strike then EVERYONE who is EVERYWHERE that is attached in ANY way to the studio system should be sent home. Sorry, speaking as someone who lives and works out here, I could never support something that Draconian.

Besides, if this is really a war game scenario being played out here between the WGA and the Studios -- a true battle of the wills, so to speak -- it only makes perfec sense for the studios to call the writers bluff by KEEPING all those VP suits and other workers chained to their desks and at their daily jobs to send a less than subtle message (as well as a less than subtle threat) right back at the WGA that says, "Hey, feel free to walk away from the negotiating table if you want. But we're keeping OUR people at work JUST IN CASE we decide these talks really are going nowhere and we want to ramp production back up at a moments notice."

Not to mention, on a far more practical level, so many of the suits and other people that work at the studios out here in LA are not involved with production at all. Take Disney for example. Just because production is shut down, why would you send home the Hyperion Book Division? They can still put together nice $50 coffee table art books based on OLD Disney animated films and such. So like I said, on the studio side, its an entirely different economic beast in terms of HOW it operates and HOW its cash flow is maintained overall, so there really is NO reason to start sending people home on that side of the aisle. Or at least not yet...

I also agree with Zerocorpse's posts. He pretty much sums up everything for me.

And MrBadWonka, you said to ZeroCorpse: "and I don't see why you and your ilk are ignoring the fact that other guilds are SUPPORTING the writer's strike. I'm sure they're not happy about being off work for a while, but they have all issued statements expressing solidarity with the WGA. so stop bitching on their behalf you guys, unless you know what you're talking about."

Well, speaking as someone who DOES live and work out here in Hollywood, I would say congratulations -- you've managed to phrase things JUST diplomatically enough to be both right AND wrong.

Yes, the other guilds (as so-called "fellow union brothers") are backing the writers right now. But give me a break, too. Let's get back to REALITY, shall we? No matter what spin you want to put on this, clearly SAG and the DGA are doing it for their own self-serving purposes simply because they have their OWN negotiataions coming up rather quickly, so OBVIOUSLY they don't want to see the writers backing down or being served a complete shit burger lest it means they will have to accept a similar deal themselves. So it's not necessarily true that they're supporting the writers because of some deep rooted emotional bonding the way that you're trying to portray things. They're simply trying to protect THEIR OWN bank books down the line. So let's cut to the chase -- this has less to do with them being actual union brothers locked in arms emotionally from the heart, but is really more about people unified over simple financial greed.

So to that end, you're right -- the other unions are backing the writers for the time being and for a good reason. They're protecting their wallets. But you're also WRONG if you don't think the unemployed people are getting more and more PISSED OFF at this strike and for the complete work stoppage. Trust me, I belong to a Union out here that is affected by the strike and I can EASILY find more than enough people...both union and certainly NON-union...who are NOT happy campers and who are rapidly losing all patience with the writers, right down to saying they hope the companies DO just find ways to go back to production (for example, by doing reality shows that aren't beholdend to the WGA) at which point they'd GLADLY cross the lines to start making their livings again.

So give me a break with this whole rose colored glasses notion that the unemployed people out there are actually HAPPY that they're not getting their paychecks right now. For crying out loud, talk about pro-WGA spin doctoring of the HIGHEST arrogant and egotistical magnitude...

Huh? Excuse me? How can the salaries be irrelevant if MONEY is the whole core issue at the heart of this strike? Look, this is again one of those things where people on both sides are trying to disguise things with carefully chosen words or by putting a slant on things. So let me say this straight up in direct refute to you: SALARIES ARE EVERYTHING HERE and THAT'S why this has become such a bitter battle.

Here's how I define a salary: it's the basic notion of "what" you took home at the end of the year. As ZeroCorpse pointed out in an earlier post, right now you already have WGA writers making a pretty damn good salary -- contractually guaranteed -- at a script rate of basically 30 GRAND for an hour long show. As he also noted, toss in a few MORE grand for either an at-home or on-set rewrite (both of which are probably a given) and you're talking about a WORKING writer...at the absolute most basic level and who simply managed to sell ONE TV script in a given year...making 40 GRAND.

Which is not bad at all considering that he probably wrote that TV episode in under ONE MONTH'S time, if not even under TWO WEEKS given current Hollywood production deadlines and production scheduling standards.

So think about that. If you're a working writer...someone who only made ONE sale for the entire year...you made a nice middle class salary. In fact, how many people here can say they made 40 grand for 2 weeks work? So in turn do you ACTUALLY think the average person out there...that is, the average American worker...would ACTUALLY bitch about that kind of work versus return financial equation? Hardly, which is why the average person out there has emotionally turned his back on the striking writers, and it is why the general public also thinks the writers are already vastly overpaid relative to what they do. Certainly relative to them and their jobs.

Which is also why, right from the start, the WGA completely LOST the P.R. battle with the studios with regards to the general public at large.

On the other hand, MrBadWonka, you said this as well: "someone being taken advantage of has the write to demand the situation change. all the more so if they pay their WGA dues every year. this is what they pay for. organization and the ability to stand up together to make sure they are not being crapped on."

And you know what? I'd agree with you on that. As a union based organization, the writers DO have the collective bargaining unit right to strike. That's their call much like its the studios right (as the other half in these negotiations) to say "Sorry, strike as much as you want, but I think I'm ALREADY paying you more than a fair day's pay and I'm NOT giving you a raise." Hey, that degate goes on in EVERY single country and in EVERY single work place on EVERY single day that the Earth rotates. It's simply the battle eternal between employer and employee. So if the writers feel they want to be a union...fine. If the writers pay annual dues and thus expect the union to do things for them in return...fine. If the writers vote and want the union to strike to try and force more money out of the studios...fine. Like I said, that's all their right and I have no problem with it.

But here's where you and I part ways...

You also said (again to ZeroCorpse): "just like the studios tactics are pointing you towards, you're just regurgitating numbers. "they're rich already, fuck them!" keep on shoveling their shit for them, I guess. saves them the trouble of putting a troll in the talkback spewing their garbage. maybe you should ask them for a small stipend to be in here?"

Hey, numbers are numbers. As the old saying goes, "the numbers don't lie." Which means BOTH sides can break out an Excel spreadsheet and BOTH sides are more than welcome to explain their financial viewpoint and thus BOTH sides can make their strongest case using numbers. But the truth is simply this: the WGA is losing that P.R. war too. Because as I pointed out above, the standard WORKING writer...someone who can actually file his taxes each year with the IRS and declare "writing" as his actual JOB...is already doing more than okay if he's employed in Hollywood. Again, certainly relative to other jobs out there and relative to what the average citizen makes doing THEIR job.

Look, I don't care about unemployed writers and neither do the studios and frankly neither does the public. That's like saying the painting art market isn't fair for painters who can't sell their paintings -- for example, an artist who paints a landscape that no one wants to buy or that a gallery doesn't want to show or that people simply look at and then make a scrunched-up face saying, "Wow, you really CAN'T paint very good, can you? Maybe you really should think about getting a different job because you're just not going to make very much money as a painter." Hey, that's just basic capitalism at work. Pretty much 99% of the time people who can DO the job will rise to the top while those who CAN'T do it at all will be pushed out entirely. And, yes, in some cases some people DO fall through the cracks -- SOME great painters or writers or musicians or even people with high aptitudes to be doctors or lawyers or scientists will go unnoticed early in their careers and subsequently give up -- which means that we, as a society, have now lost their voice which is unfortunate. I won't deny that happens either.

But for WORKING writers in Hollywood...again, people actually making their living by writing on a day in, day out basis...the question is no different for them versus anyone else at any other job: what is a fair pay day? So for you to call ZeroCorpse or anyone else a studio troll just BECAUSE they don't agree with you viewpoint on this issue is unwarranted -- at least I think. The truth is the writers just haven't done a very good job AT ALL of making their case this time around and most people have seen them as greedy, self-serving rich people just trying to get richer.

And to that end I TOTALLY agree with ZeroCorpse and the argument he's been puttingforth in talkbacks since the strike began. If the writers are SO interested in residual equality, then WHY are they not standing up for anyone else? Why is it that you never even hear them SAY that they would back a residual plan for the sound people or costume designers or art depeartments or whoever? No, instead there has not been ONE SINGLE PEEP out of them regarding a COMPLETE across the board restructuring of residuals -- which to be somewhat fair to the WGA, both SAG and the DGA should speak out and back as well.

In a previous talkback I said something and I'll repeat it now because it's still true: there is a REAL ugly truth that this strike has revealed, and its where the writers lost me and pretty much the majority of people out there. Because everyone realized this was ONLY about the money and ONLY about the rich wanting to get richer. It’s the overly spoiled and clueless rich fighting the overly spoiled and clueless rich. And as others have noted again and again, it's pretty damn telling this time around that the writers ONLY care about increasing THEIR residuals, and they don't give a shit about anyone else in the creative process. They don't give a shit about other union personnel getting better residuals too -- and, hell, they CERTAINLY don't care if NON-union people get any residuals AT ALL to compensate them for their contributions either. And they certainly don't care if they put innocent people out of work completely or cost people their actual careers and jobs to get what they want.

So in the end this is a true "I got mine, you get yours" kind of strike -- which is EXACTLY the type of money-grubbing unionized work stoppage that makes the average person turn their back on strikers completely. Hence why this strike has garnered next to zero public interest and zero support overall.

and I never said everyone else in hollywood whos job is affected negatively was happy or didn't care. what I said was that the other guilds supported the strike. perhaps it's self serving in that they want the WGA's support the next time they strike. it's all political, but still. support is support. I'm sure there are people ON THE PICKET LINES that are angry about losing work and money, but they're still there, right?

you said: "It’s the overly spoiled and clueless rich fighting the overly spoiled and clueless rich."

you're entitiled to your opinion of course. but to me, you're just articulating a slightly more informed version of the same spiteful argument that a lot of people are. "those writers are overpaid, fuck them!" we as a people with our fascination and devotion to all things entertainment and all things hollywood, WE determine their salaries. we buy the stuff in the ads, we buy the DVD's, we watch the shows. US. we do that. so you spare ME the sanctimony on this issue.

and by the by, somewhere in your few posts, amidst an example, you described me.....almost exactly. ;o)