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More on "Deep Space Nine" series finale (("What You Leave Behind"))

spoilers by kev	Apr 14th, 1999 07:45:09 AM
ok, i realise you're not gonna blow the entire plot over the talkback section but could you at least say who gets the last line in the final episode, you dont need to say what that last line is, just who it comes from???? Also, does Morn get a line in it?
Re:spoilers((From COAXIAL)) by coaxial	Apr 14th, 1999 08:04:06 AM
Glen here...no, Morn does not talk in the series finale. Last line = QUARK: It's like I said, the more things change, the more they stay the same.Glen
reply by kev	Apr 14th, 1999 08:13:22 AM
thanks Glen, appreciate it, now i'm really desperate to see it, its just a pity that, being in the UK, it won't be shown over here until the new year.... oh well, nevermind, i've got voyager to keep me going.....DOH! :-(
"What You Leave Behind" synopsis by Chapaev	Apr 14th, 1999 10:36:00 AM
Glen, if you've seen my postings and,probably,my letter you'd realise that I have very slim chances of ever seeing the finale.Quite a blow after watching the show for 5 years.And there's no telling of how long I'd afford to be on line beyond this month.So,I probably won't even read about it.Please,just post a synopsis on Coaxial.Let the public decide whether they wish to be spoiled or not.
Chapev by Lord_Darth	Apr 14th, 1999 11:44:40 AM
If your really that desperate go to trekweb. They are usually 80-85% Reliable. Or maybe I could video it for you and you pay shipping. JEEZ.
and sisko went to the Rim to hook up with the First Ones by sting	Apr 14th, 1999 01:45:53 PM
or was that Sheridan. And Kira gave up her hatred of the Centauri to realize that their fates and the Narns were linked,or was that G'kar. Well, at least if the final's not going to be original than hopefully the build up to it will be. The spoiler I heard of the defiant getting destroyed sounds interesting, but too bad we've seen it already in Valiant, so it won't be that big of a shock. If the station is gutted in a huge explosion in the final, then that will be the last time I watch trek, even in reruns. Starfleet actually being attacked on Earth sounds cool, that will tie in to the Ezri/Worf situation. Cardassia going renegade and Kira helping them, will make for good sci-fi. But one of the few problems I have with the show is how the entire Ferengi situation has been handled, the plots get more and more outrageous. Who in their right mind would give Rom the position of the Grand Nagus. And what was up with that weak episode where Zek finds Rom's notes about the other dimension and uses them to make a trade deal, no one takes secret messages to an alien homeworld for their family to read. That was just weak writing on their part, they needed an easy plot device to start the ep, which sad enough star trek seems to always take. But I do have to agree with those who say DS9 is the best trek. TOS never attained its full potential, Voyager has yet to show any, other than in the 2 parters and finals (but hopefully with Ron Moore joining the staff, they will become interesting). Next Generation took a while to build up and was pretty good for its last 4 seasons. But when Babylon was shown, I realized how much we were screwed in terms of level of thougt given to eps. DS9 has been good since the third season but did have some cool plotlines before like the Maquis, and when the Bajorans took over the station and the only decent O'brien ep where he helped the escapee run away from the hunters in their game (1st season). There is potential for the last few eps, hopefully DS9 capitalizes on it. When this show goes, the only good scifi remaining will be Stargate, Buffy and Crusade (which hopefully will survive).
Star Trek RipOff by Lord_Darth	Apr 14th, 1999 05:04:54 PM
Let me first say I love Trek and I like B5 a lot. But if it is true that Trek has ripped of Sleeping in the Light I would freak. IMHO I hated that episode and I think any true fan of B5 would agree with me. It would be A HUGE MISTAKE to make a finale of DS9 that resembles it.
I hate to be a dickweed but, by Peteski	Apr 14th, 1999 06:21:11 PM
Who cares? The only reason I showed up here was to have the whole thing ruined for me. Ah well. -peteski@spinninghead.com
I'm right there with ya Peteski by Dolfanar	Apr 14th, 1999 07:15:27 PM
No spoilers... Makes sense, you can't spoil something which has been exposed to rot for well over a decade...
Why not spoil? by SkyKing76	Apr 14th, 1999 07:54:22 PM
Its not like you'd be giving up the script for TPM. Which...even if you did...most everyone would still go see the movie. Same thing here...if I get to read the script...I'm still gonna watch the final eps.
Rip offs by Chapaev	Apr 15th, 1999 01:00:21 PM
OK,it may SOUND as a Babylon 5 rip off.But,in the end,the only things that matter are acting,directing and the overall episode atmosphere.And I have no doubts "What You Leave Behind" won't fail in that.Let's face it - there are few genuinely original ideas left in sci fi.Some of Babylon 5 could easily be called a rip off of "Total Recall" (the whole Mars storyline) or "Empire Strikes Back" (the Z'Ha'Dum episode).I'm sure others will find more analogies.For a truly original on screen sci fi - go buy the two Russian movie classics "Solaris" and "Stalker". As for tha Trek vs. B5 rip off accusations - like I said before - don't expect much originality from a TV series as a whole.Inspiration and TV are almost incompatible concepts. And,whatever happens in the finale,DS9 had many exquisitely scripted episodes in the past.
RE: Sting's comments by mckracken	Apr 15th, 1999 01:42:41 PM
"When this show goes, the only sci/fi remaining will be Stargate, Buffy and Crusade (which hopefully will survive).".......In my opinion, Buffy The Vampire slayor isnt SCI/FI, its horror (for TV) but some people consider it Sci/fi only because horror shows tend to get kicked in the ass after their first season, Buffy didnt. Crusade is dead. TNT will more than likely pull it from their linup before it reaches it's 13th episode. Think I'm wrong? Only time will tell. What about Farscape, First Wave, Sliders, Red Dwarf and Voyager? (or for that matter, Poltergiest: the Legacy) Soon Paramount will start another STAR TREK TV show. Paramount isnt willing to let this property die so soon. I wont even start on my thoughts on DS9, I dont even follow that show. I do realize this show has fans, and to blatantly copy Sleeping in Light for its finale would suck hardcore. (by the way, I do feel that "Sleeping in Light" was a great finale, also) -McK
Red Dwarf by Chapaev	Apr 15th, 1999 01:57:24 PM
I agree about Red Dwarf.It had more original sci fi concepts than Trek and B5 put together.And some of the most believable characters in sci fi TV.And it's funny.Smegging great!
sci-fi's in the 90's by sting	Apr 15th, 1999 03:42:30 PM
Farscape, First Wave, and Red Dwarf I have yet to see, so I can't judge them yet. I am interested in watching Farscape, the entire new universe and no humans concept sounds cool. Sliders is one of the most shittiest sci-fi's. It was decent for the first season but after they killed the professor and the new remodeled Kromaggs entered and their war started, well that was thier downfall. First Wave looks like a cross between Dark Skies and Paradox, 2 shows that I was not enthusiastic about watching after awhile. Voyager has went where no star trek show has gone before: to a ratings disaster, even with a legion of trekkies to support them they still can't make it. Outer Limits and Poltergeist were great for their 1st two season but when I watch them nowadays they lack the same tension that first existed. OLimits used to have a lot of shocking endings, now it is predictable and somewhat expected. Poltergeist or is it pornogeist, is focusing more on the sex than on the plots nowadays-they rarely have a good story (if I wanted to stare at tits, I will watch the bad acting yet great chicks of Acapulco H.E.A.T). Highlander and its spin-off are no longer good, especially after highlander fought his most powerful enemies, like dude with the slit-throat, the Watchers, and the power hungry Indian. Earth 2, Strange World all deserved their fate. Only time will tell for Crusade and Brimstone was pretty good, why do they want to cancel them.
A Star Trek episode with no "oomph" surely you jest!!! by Clavius	Apr 15th, 1999 05:12:56 PM
(Begin sarcasm here>>) I find it difficult to believe that the finale of a Star Trek series would fail to go out with a bold and exciting BANG.(end sarcasm). Anytime a Star Trek episode is touted as a major event, the ending is ALWAYS a lackluster affair. Even the movies, except for the death of Kirk no major changes take place in the lives of any of Star Trek's characters. The writers always put thier toys back exactly where they got them when they're done playing with them because they're afraid to break them. Look at B5, now here's a show that's not afraid to kill off an entire civilization in order to further the story. I mean hell, the entire command staff eventually is rotated out of circulation by the series finale, and it works because it's believable. JMS is out to tell good stories not to keep his cash cow alive on a ventillator for eternity, which is exactly what the producers and writers of Star Trek do these days. Blowing up an Enterprise in every movie is not an arc-shaping event, while the effects on the crew might be staggering, they are short-term. The writers have to learn to be bolder, take more chances and not be afraid to change things in order to shake up the franchise.
We want...INFORMATION! by cnuzzi	Apr 15th, 1999 07:13:17 PM
Really Glen, why not just tell us the scoop and say "click here if you want to know"? That way only those who wish to be spoiled will be. Why is that a bad idea? No one who does not want to know will be forced to read the info. And, if you won't do that, can you at least tell us why?
by sting	Apr 16th, 1999 01:52:39 PM
Let me clarify, I like DS9. Even if it borrows heavily from B5, it still is able to put an interesting twist on the story (unlike Voyager). I remember when I read Lord of the Rings and started to make connections between it and B5.
Now it's really getting blatant... by JackStar	Apr 19th, 1999 10:06:09 PM
The DS9/B5 paralells are getting too damn blatant. After the episode airing 4/17- where the Breen ( who were the helmet Princess Leia wore when she was disguised as bounty hunter in Jedi for chrisakes!) join with the Dominion- you have Sheridan/Cisco being warned by Kozh/Prophet that if he goes to Z'ha'dum/gets married he will die/have nothing but sorrow, but Kosh/his mother the Prophet are actually fearful for their protege/offspring. Meanwhile, all is unresftully quiet back at the station while the crew waits to see if G'Kar/Ezri finds Garibaldi/Work who dispearred after a battle.. All while sometimes foe/freind Londo/Kai is influenced by acolyte of the dark forces Morden/Gul Dukat. Whoa. Paramount really, really does suck. By the by, as a 'true B5 fan'm I dug Sleeping in Light. It answered questions, raised others, helped fill in a major chunk of the B5 chronology.
Sci Fi thoughts and DS9 by Delta Pug	Apr 22nd, 1999 11:07:28 AM
I must say, I am down on my knees praying to the Gods of Sci Fi that there will be a new Star Trek. If they take the Star Trek Universe out with Voyager being the last series... it is unthinkable. I agree that there have been a few good episodes but it isn't a good arc and the acting is more like 90210 than Star Trek. As for good Sci Fi once we say fairwell to DS9... I am hoping to see Crusade get its chance... otherwise the pickings are getting slim. I was really excited about Space: Above and beyond and it went away way too early. I was excited about Stargate SG1 and have not been too disapointed although McGyver is the best part of the show. I fear the networks are not spending enough time looking for good shows to pick up. They focus too much on shows like Buffy... which is neither Sci Fi or Horror but is another cookie cutter teen angst show like 90210, Melrose, Party o' 5 and movies like Scream 1, 2 I know what you did, the Faculty... I am really beginning to think the big wigs of entertainment are stuck in a groove. What we need is some more good mini series like V to get the creative juies flowing again and bring worthwhile Sci Fi back to where it belongs.
Babylon 5 is not worth 5 pieces of monkey crap! by Stone Cold	Apr 22nd, 1999 12:17:30 PM
Babylon 5 is the sorriest, suckiest, piece of trash show out of all sorry, sucky, piece of trash shows. It is just damn stupid, and is the most horrible monkey shit ever put on the air. And that's the bottom line, cuz Stone Cold said so!
B5 vs. Ds9 by CaitSith	Apr 22nd, 1999 05:28:48 PM
I am getting really sick of these B5 vs. DS9 comparisons. They are in two completely differnt universes. Roddenbery's concept paints a romanticists view of the future, while Stracynski takes the realist's perspective. You can argue the similarity in plot all you want. You can argue which is a better show on the merits. But you can't say either show rips off the other, because they exist in two completely different settings. By the way, SiL was a heck of an episode, ad if DS9 were to rip it off, at least they'd be ripping off something worthwhile -CS
DS9.....good riddance! by Walt	Apr 22nd, 1999 10:16:46 PM
First of all, STTNG was the best of the series, even more so than the original one, which is right up there with TNG. Voyager is entertaining and adventurous. But DS9? Sorry, I never liked it - it was boring. I was really getting sick of the Cardasians and the other bad guys....I can't even think of their names since I don't watch it much anymore. I really tried to give it a chance and enjoy it, just like STTNG, which I hated at first, but took me a couple of seasons to really enjoy. But I just could never get excited about DS9. There were a few exceptional episodes, like the tribbles remake, but that's about it. I know I'm in the minority, but someone please tell me, why this show is so great??? And why don't people like Voyager...it's so much more entertaining with new stories and new aliens all the time? Unlike DS9 which has basically had the same plot for the last few seasons with this big war or whatever is going on. The only good episodes were the early ones where they took off on the Defiant and went galloping around inside the worm hole. Oh, I'll watch the final episode, only hoping to see the Enterprise make an appearance. Ok, start attacking me, but I'm sure there's a lot of fans out there who agree with me. We are probably the ones who never post things, but I was getting sick of hearing all this praise for DS9. Thank you for this forum and equal opportunity to express our opposing views.
Why people hate Voyager by CaitSith	Apr 23rd, 1999 07:06:42 AM
Despite the fact that I watch ST:V every week, I really don't like the show, because they always wrap the show up in the last five minutes, every episode without fail, they build the momentum for fifty-five minutes, and then it just ends, and besides they use more treknobabble then any other Star Trek. -CS
Ripoffs, B5 and DS9 by The Major	Apr 23rd, 1999 05:03:45 PM
First, I am a fan of both Trek and B5. Second, before anyone starts hollering about "ripoffs" of B5 by DS9 writers, I suggest they read/reread Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings", Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man" (winner of the very first Hugo Award) and H.P. Lovecraft's "Chulthlu" stories. JMS took from other stories in addition to these, but in these you will find many of the basic ideas for B5, for example: The dawn of the third age of mankind (LOTR takes place at the end of the Third Age of Middle Earth). JMS' model, almost fully formed (albeit with a positive rather a negative character), for the PsiCorps and PsiCops, and the "death of personality", called "demolition" by Bester (hence "The Demolished Man"). Sheidan (Gandalf), the leader of an amalgam of people against the Shadows (called thus in both tales), literally falls at Z'hadum (Khazad Dum), and is resurrected more powerful than before (Gandalf the Grey is reborn as the more powerful Gandalf the White). The First Ones and the Pakmorah (sp?) are taken from HPL. JMS' genius was not so much in original ideas as it was in knowing a lot of old tales, creatively melding those old ideas together and tweaking them to see where they could lead, and then writing great screenplays to bring them to life for us. So whether DS9 is ripping off B5 is really not the question. The question is "Is it good?" If the answer is "Yes", that's all that really matters.
Ripoffs, B5 and DS9 by The Major	Apr 23rd, 1999 05:04:04 PM
First, I am a fan of both Trek and B5. Second, before anyone starts hollering about "ripoffs" of B5 by DS9 writers, I suggest they read/reread Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings", Alfred Bester's "The Demolished Man" (winner of the very first Hugo Award) and H.P. Lovecraft's "Chulthlu" stories. JMS took from other stories in addition to these, but in these you will find many of the basic ideas for B5, for example: The dawn of the third age of mankind (LOTR takes place at the end of the Third Age of Middle Earth). JMS' model, almost fully formed (albeit with a positive rather a negative character), for the PsiCorps and PsiCops, and the "death of personality", called "demolition" by Bester (hence "The Demolished Man"). Sheidan (Gandalf), the leader of an amalgam of people against the Shadows (called thus in both tales), literally falls at Z'hadum (Khazad Dum), and is resurrected more powerful than before (Gandalf the Grey is reborn as the more powerful Gandalf the White). The First Ones and the Pakmorah (sp?) are taken from HPL. JMS' genius was not so much in original ideas as it was in knowing a lot of old tales, creatively melding those old ideas together and tweaking them to see where they could lead, and then writing great screenplays to bring them to life for us. So whether DS9 is ripping off B5 is really not the question. The question is "Is it good?" If the answer is "Yes", that's all that really matters.
Ripoffs... by JackStar	Apr 23rd, 1999 07:09:45 PM
The difference between a ripoff and a good old literary homage/borrowing/theft is not only qualtiy, but recognition of who you're sources of inspiration are. JMS has been pretty clear about his inspirations have been throught his writings and postings.. also clear about who they haven't been. The ST creators have failed in granting due credit, and put out piss poor product to boot. Holding them accountable for this, for wasting a resource dear to fans the world over, is certainly worth it. And while themes can be explored in the different settings doesn't raise the ripoff of question, the specific similarities merit it.
Literary Allusions by CaitSith	Apr 24th, 1999 08:36:50 AM
Hundreds of television shows have alluded to, borrowed from, or stole directly from great literary works, Star Trek included. Did anybody else see how much First Contact swiped from Moby Dick? Even JMS acknowledges that TV Sci-FI is miles behind the written genre. But I have to agree, B5 did what no other Trek, except the original series, did. It oushed the limits of the Sci-Fi genre. But don't take my word for it, go back and watch "Believers," This is without a doubt one of B5's greatest episodes, and heck, JMS didn't even write it. And as for the LoR allusions in B5, well yeah, you'd have to be blind not to see them, but I hardly think B% was a slave to Tolkien.
by Ianderthal	Apr 24th, 1999 03:22:21 PM
I concur with the earlier comments that writers cannot be expected to create their stories entirely from scratch and as a result must be expected to take from previously told stories. What should be at issue is whether the story is well told or not. In the case of the final ST:TNG episode, we saw a blatent recycling of the highly regarded Doctor Who episode, "City of Death" that had been penned by Douglass Adams. In the case of "All Good Things..." we saw a script that certainly didn't work. As entertaining as individual scenes may have been-- the characters thirty years in the future or the characters seven years in the past, the story as a whole did not work-- the writers were unable to deal with their own time travel premise and wrap it up into a coherent plot line-- which was in direct contrast with the streamlined plotting in Adams' Doctor Who teleplay. I do think that DS9 is a better program than TNG, but I always worry that the ball will be dropped and we viewers will be confronted with something that should be left to TNG or ST:V.
Far beyond rip offs.... by Chapaev	Apr 25th, 1999 02:12:26 AM
I don't think Trek had any blatant rip offs of other shows,etc.They'd certainly used other's ideas over the years but it always was done in an original way. In any case,there's one feature of DS9 that has nothing to do with B5 and any other sci fi that I can think of at the moment.It's the Benny Russell storyline from "Far Beyond The Stars" and "Shadows And Symbols".That's what I call thoughtful and original.
Ripping Off B5? Hardly. by Topher	Apr 26th, 1999 01:33:17 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble on this (being a fan of both DS9 and B5, I appreciate the enjoyment many B5 fans get out of ripping into DS9 simply for not being B5), but the honest truth is that neither B5 or DS9 are entirely original ideas. B5 gets great credit for introducing arc-based storytelling to TV Sci-fi, but it is hardly the most original concept created by man. It seems to me that many of its VERY vocal fans aren't paying attention to JMS, nor have they apparently read any actual science fiction or fantasy books (and I am talking literature here... ie. Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, Earthsea, Discworld, etc... not novelizations of B5 or Star Trek stories). Both DS9 and B5 are working from some very, very old source material. The same source material that Star Wars, Lord of the rings, etc etc are using. Before accusing ANYONE of ripping anyone off, so and do two things: 1) Go to a bookstore (a GOOD one) and find a book called "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. Read it. Wake up. (Incidentally, this is an anthropological book and is HEAVY reading). 2) Go to a bookstore (anyone this time) and get some Shakespeare. You can generally find a play to fit ANY storyline, he was that prolific. Oh, and incidentally, if you want to see some intelligent, thought-provoking tightly arced tv sci-fi that PREDATES B5 (barely), pick up the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion (but you will need to find a script for the movie finale since it is unavailable here in the US).
Why does Star Trek suck so bad? by 60091	Apr 26th, 1999 07:10:08 PM
If there is to be a new incarnation of Star Trek, I wish that Trek would get more "gritty" more "realistic". Have characters that arent so fucking "GOODY GOODY" all the time. Does every confrontation have to have a happy resolution? And enough of that Klingon bullshit. ENOUGH already. I'd like to see a Star Trek type "French Connection" feeling. Documentary style cinematography. I'm not that well versed in those movie terms but that is what I could think of.
Star Trek vs. Babylon 5 by Zoots	Apr 26th, 1999 10:23:42 PM
What is the beef here? Both are examples of good SciFi television. But your comparing Apples to Oranges. The original Trek was campy, but dealt with the issues of the day and did so in a manner that was intelligent. TNG worked on the same formula, and expanded it more with character development over its run. I don't believe DS9 has ever really lived up to its potential, but it is/was a good show none the least. Voyager has tried to get back to the original formula and has tried to incorporate a story arc (like B5 did in it structure). Hopefully it will get better. Babylon 5 on the other hand had an intricate story arc and character development over its 5 year run. It was intelligent and entwining. It followed more of the classical styles of Science Fiction writing and story lines. You had to see it from the beginning to get the full effect and understanding of the show. Sleeping in Light was a great ending to the show. The story line had come full circle. It pulled at me emotionally, which is what a good show should do. To those of you arguing which is better, they both are. So to all you clowns arguing this out of who is better and was Sleeping in Light a bad episode I suggest you get a clue. It is all good science fiction, and that is what counts.
Zoot Suit riot! Riot! Roll back a bottle of beer! by Wolfpack	Jul 20th, 2006 10:45:27 AM

Si, senor. by Wolfpack	Jul 20th, 2006 02:53:27 PM

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