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testing 1 2 3
by xega
Sep 12th, 2007
03:21:35 AM
test
Jordi Bernet is a GENIUS
by Steve Rogers
Sep 12th, 2007
04:07:59 AM
Still got my collections of Torpedo 1936. Absolutely AWESOME comic book, should be required reading for all.
Answer me this?
by Dr.Zeus
Sep 12th, 2007
05:57:57 AM
If you're virtually indestructible, and the strongest one there is....Why do you need gay ass armor (politically correct version; Heterosexually Challenged Anally Covering Armor) on only one side of your body??? True, I guess roaming around the universe in purple drawers gets a little cold! But i'll be glad when they ditch that lame crap! :[
Rick Remender's
by Dr.Zeus
Sep 12th, 2007
06:04:41 AM
Fear Agent is consistently one of the most entertaining comics being published currently. I just wish they could get it out a little quicker. Rick seems to remember how much fun comics used to be, before all the heroes started becoming shades of grey. There's nothing wrong with kicking ass...just do it with style!
Jordi Bernet
by DuncanHines
Sep 12th, 2007
06:25:14 AM
Is the fucking truth. I only know his work from his issue of Solo and his Spirit issue. I'll check out that Torpedo 1936 though. He rules. I hope they make him regular artist on The Spirit after Darwyn Cooke leaves.
Night Thrasher is Captain America
by zabu 123
Sep 12th, 2007
06:38:16 AM
Seriously, that's the only reason i'm still collecting New Warriors. There's just to many clues pointing to him being Captain America. Or at least they want us to think he's Cap. Anyway, i've got to see how this plays out.
Hulk
by Bluejack
Sep 12th, 2007
07:27:01 AM
STUPIDSTUPIDSTUPIDSTUPIDSTUPID STUPIDSTUPID. Who thinks up this Doofery? Talk about a crazy loophole to screw up ALL of Hulk's continuity. Did anyone think for a moment that the Hulk has never killed one of these spearcarrier extras?!?!?!? Rip some damn heads off, Hulk! Please! You would be the most beloved villain in the Marvel Universe (trumping Magneto and Dr. Doom) if you ripped Reed Richard's head off in a giant taffy pulling move. What a bunch of fucking pussies you Marvel bastards are. In like a lion out like a lobotomized lamb , indeed.
Is it just me?
by rev_skarekroe
Sep 12th, 2007
07:57:46 AM
Or is it really stupid in this Talkback today? BTW, are any of the @$$holes planning on reviewing Warren Ellis' novel? I'm very curious, but I'm also waiting for the paperback to come out.
Prof. Challenger
by Admiral_Snackbar
Sep 12th, 2007
08:06:13 AM
Let me get this straight... you gave up on 52 after six weeks, but you STILL buy Countdown? I dropped that one on week 2 and haven't looked back.
Faker
by PVIII
Sep 12th, 2007
08:49:14 AM
is a good book. Missed Lobster Johnson though, and I'm pissed.
I agree, Faker is good
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 12th, 2007
09:05:45 AM
It's got me off-balance, I'm still not sure what "kind" of book it is. I thought it was one thing, a well written angsty book which I liked, and then the last panel changed the direction entirely.
in primo luogo
by Anagrama
Sep 12th, 2007
09:31:18 AM
in primo luogo
I pride myself on my suspension of disbelief.
by Smerdyakov
Sep 12th, 2007
09:33:54 AM
But the idea that the Hulk can collapse a seventy story skyscraper and at the same time calculate with his subliminal super-brain where all the people are and somehow keep them from dying as they fall 300 feet and dodge rubble has taxed even my comic book credence beyond it's limit. Is there an comic editor on earth who wouldn't cry out WTF??? Are you on crack? Go back and rewrite this dreck.
New Y not a page turner
by Big Bad Clone
Sep 12th, 2007
09:45:38 AM
I was literally stuck on one page because I did not want to turn it and see the aforementioned tragedy. Even when I finally did turn the page, I was saying "no no no no no no."

Sure there was a period of issues where it felt like it was shuffling along but I wondered if that was due to Vaungh not wanting to leave that universe behind. As if he's the one sticking around too long. Still, I like how the end is unfolding.

Don't worry about 355.
by Smerdyakov
Sep 12th, 2007
10:06:19 AM
It's just a scratch.
^spoiler.
by PVIII
Sep 12th, 2007
10:08:17 AM
sucks to be anyone who hasn't read that ish. Poor Yorrick and his slut girlfriend.
Prof's back!
by Thalya
Sep 12th, 2007
10:09:56 AM
But I _liked_ Four Horsemen. It was one of the better reads I had last week: Giffen and Olliffe were on, and each of the four horsemen, no longer bound up in those heavy Apokoliptian-tech suits that you see on the cover, are now taking human forms (though it's doubtful those will last). Although I don't remember the flaming skull from the Checkmate/Outsiders crossover referenced in a panel. But with the rumor that Ambush Bug: Agent of Checkmate may be showing up? I'm so there for next issue.

Great buncha reviews from everyone, still, glad to see you all back and rarin'!
From the preview pages...
by stones_throw
Sep 12th, 2007
10:20:45 AM
...I actually thought THOR #3 looked kinda sucky. Thor plonks himself down in N'awlins only to be beset by trademark Angry Dissafected Comic Book Crowd #347. "Why dintja do anything, Thunder God?"

Thor: "I was dead."

Angry, Dissafected Crowd: "..."
"Well ya still shoulda done sumthin'!" If this is JMS' attempt to make Thor look wise it's not working. Then JMS' mustach-twirling Iron Man shows up: (direct quote) "Things have changed, Thor. You either work for the government or you're against us." Way to uphold the American Way there, Iron Jerk! I don't care if it's the norm, that's some butt-ugly characterization.

I'm also not really a fan of Thor's new costume. He's the frickin' Thunder God, he doesn't *need* to look menacing.

The thing about Iron Man...
by stones_throw
Sep 12th, 2007
10:25:28 AM
...the Marvel writers aren't even on the same page about the characterization. Mark Millar's actually he said he thought he was the hero of CIVIL WAR and Cap was the villain (if that's the case then it says a lot about his skills with characters, or rather lack of them), while JMS is writing the guy like a full-blown villain. That's why I'm not optimistic about a path to redemption. I mean, DC have made some bad choices with their characters but usually editorial ensures the writers are on the same page about it.
I don't normally...
by halcyonseven
Sep 12th, 2007
10:35:34 AM
chime in here but good grief people. Lets see what makes a good review according to the gentleman who reviewed the 4 Horseman tie-in: 1) Tell us you never meant to read it. It was all a big accident and we know you had no interest in it. 2) Tell us you never read the series it ties into! Wow! Now we know you don't have a CLUE about what you are talking about! Great! Thats a review to trust folks! Normally you guys do a good job, this was however one of the saddest reviews I have ever read in my life. The book, if you read 52 was not bad, the art was solid, WW helped set us up for the next few books and we had some really interesting banter between Supes and Bats and Clark and Bruce. Really solid banter I might add. They felt like real characters and it was a treat to see them working together like this in such an interesting setting. If you didn't read 52 you might not get the 52 tie in though. Just a thought.
Glad to see the classic Spidey logo back...
by Raymar
Sep 12th, 2007
10:39:02 AM
That newer one was a monstrosity
Halcyonseven...
by stones_throw
Sep 12th, 2007
10:45:57 AM
That Prof C gave the context you describe tells you whether it's gonna be a valuable review to you. I guess he's saying that despite being an #1 it's not gonna be much good to anyone who hasn't read 52, which I imagine would be useful to those in a similar position. It's not YOUR position but to me at least a review that tries to speak for everyone is pretty much useless.
Iron Man is the most interesting Marvel character.
by Smerdyakov
Sep 12th, 2007
10:49:24 AM
Right now, anyway. Although I agree it's time for him stop being a punching bag.
Stark is a Skrull
by krushjudgement
Sep 12th, 2007
11:00:16 AM
You'll see.
Stark is not a skrull
by xsi kal
Sep 12th, 2007
11:11:17 AM
Marvel has categorically stated that multiple times.

IMO, he's just a doofus who got taken for a ride, and is now rightfully getting his ass handed to him.
Stark's not a Skrull.
by SleazyG.
Sep 12th, 2007
11:18:08 AM
In fact, Marvel has come out and said he's the only character they'll guarantee isn't a Skrull. It could be a feint, but I doubt it.

Somebody at Marvel made another good point last week, though: people are being waaay to narrowly focused on this whole thing. "Reed is a Skrull!" is missing the point. There's no reason to think that any one character was *permanently* replaced by a Skrull, as if they were being held captive in a mountain lair somewhere. The point is that now you don't know *which* appearances of a character were really them, and which were a Skrull faking it for a day or two. Hell, you could have one Skrull who's been impersonating multiple characters just to eff with people or play both sides against the middle.

It's a lot more complicated than people are thinking right now, which is a great concept that's bound to be shittily executed.

Stark is not a Skrull
by XAOS
Sep 12th, 2007
11:21:50 AM
But it's been strongly implied that someone who "facilitated" the war was. The easy choice would be Maria Hill from SHIELD, but since we've also been told that Illuminati #1 will be an important Skrull plot point, I prefer to imagine that its actually Reed Richards. His powers would be easy to replicate for a Skrull, and hella advanced Skrulls could presumably pass for teh smartest man on Earth.
Stark's not a Skrull.
by rev_skarekroe
Sep 12th, 2007
11:43:35 AM
I just wanted to get in on the act. Besides a cinch that no characters with their own titles will wind up being Skrulls.
You didn't read 52?
by mrjoker
Sep 12th, 2007
12:15:11 PM
come on man, go back and read all of 52. It was great! and you talked about liking what you saw in 52 with Doc Magnus, but then you go on to say you dropped it after week 6? There is a lot more story there- Check out 52, and I bet that 4Horseman book will be slightly more interesting (but still a convoluted mess ;) )
Stark is not a Skrull
by Ambush Bug
Sep 12th, 2007
12:18:17 PM
I'm just sayin'.
Stark ain't bein' no Skrull, mutha-fukkas
by Squashua
Sep 12th, 2007
12:19:13 PM
Know wot I'm sayin'? Yo.
Bad History?????
by hodag007
Sep 12th, 2007
12:20:47 PM
Did I miss something in regards to the "bad history" between Thor and Iron Man? I do not recall them being portrayed as anything but best friends.
when will yorrick play the field?
by drewlicious
Sep 12th, 2007
12:34:32 PM
Seriously, in that world wouldn't bigamy be the most practical outcome? Despite the whole quest for Beth thing Yorrick has proven himself to be pretty fickle when it comes to women. How many women has he fallen in love with on this journey? We've got Beth#2, the chick in the prison, the pirate, and 355. I'm really looking forward to see how this ends. Just don't kill the bastard, he's suffered enough.
Skrull is not a Stark.
by Thalya
Sep 12th, 2007
01:54:55 PM
It's a Snark. Now commence with the Hunt!
Cap(Golden Age ) vs. Iron Man(Silver Age)
by Tacom
Sep 12th, 2007
02:52:35 PM
I look back at the Civil War as the conflict between the idealistic WWII Golden Age superhero values of Cap and the practical Cold War Silver Age superhero values of Stark. It made sense that Reed Richard who was and that Spidey who got his powers in the Silver Age through radiation would switch because he had the most Golden Age heroism in him. I'm not saying Millar or TPTB at Marvel had this in mind. I still hate the storyline.
Teen Titans=BOOOOORRRRIIINNGGGG!!!
by superhero
Sep 12th, 2007
03:23:27 PM
Sorry, but it's true. I expect more from you McKeever! Do you hear me! Huh! DO YOU???
Oh, and FUCK YOU Brian K. Vaughn!!!!
by superhero
Sep 12th, 2007
03:25:38 PM
I hate you! I HATE YOU I HATE YOU IHATE YOU!!!! How could you, sir. How could you??? Dammit if I didn't love your writing so much I could hate you more than I already do! DAMN YOU, MAN! DAAAAMMNNN YOOOUUU!!!
Practical Cold War Silver Age superhero values?
by superhero
Sep 12th, 2007
03:31:36 PM
Yeah, because the idealistic WWII Golden Age superhero values of Cap didn't win the Second Wolrd War or anything...yeeeesh!
Brian K Vaughan...
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
03:45:10 PM
What Superhero said. You sick bastard. I couldn't read the rest of my comics for an hour after that.
I hope that the 355 we saw in YTLM #58
by toshiro-solo
Sep 12th, 2007
04:06:46 PM
is a Skrull. The real 355 can be hiding out in the bathroom, waiting for Yorick to come and give her the whatfor.
Read ILLUMINATI #1
by Ambush Bug
Sep 12th, 2007
04:14:32 PM
This is where the whole Skrull business started. Prof X is a Skrull. He's separated from the group and is found later. The final panels of the book shows a slow close up of Prof X's eye which has the same kind of rings around it that the Skrulls have. This is where it all started. The guy is walking now, fer crying out loud. Not sure why, but that's not the Prof X I grew up with.
Read ILLUMINATI #1
by Ambush Bug
Sep 12th, 2007
04:14:35 PM
This is where the whole Skrull business started. Prof X is a Skrull. He's separated from the group and is found later. The final panels of the book shows a slow close up of Prof X's eye which has the same kind of rings around it that the Skrulls have. This is where it all started. The guy is walking now, fer crying out loud. Not sure why, but that's not the Prof X I grew up with.
Night Thrasher is either...
by Negative Man
Sep 12th, 2007
04:23:30 PM
Young Avengers' Patriot OR Fake Cap's (now U.S. Agent) former sidekick Battlestar. The idea that they would have Steve Rogers come back wearing black face and imitating a D-tiered skateboarder that helped start the Civil War is just terrible, terrible writing.
Hulk's Rampages
by Buzz Maverik
Sep 12th, 2007
04:51:21 PM
I believe HULK # 300 was his most notable, destructive, all out rampage. Those of us who favor a non-killer Hulk may have lost our credibility with that one.

But...

I've read a lot of Hulk. Hulk is my favorite Marvel character. In many ways, the Hulk is the pure spirit of Marvel because he's the last character you'd think of as a hero. Heroes with problems? I'd say being Hulk is a huge problem.

The rampages? Well ... these all-out, Godzilla levelling Tokyo type attacks have actually been pretty rare throughout the Hulk's history. Toppling skyscrapers and demolishing cities? Well, I haven't read EVERY issue, but you usually don't see it.

If we get into the question of realism, after first laughing at ourselves because: c'mon, guys, we're talkin' radioactive, green superhuman and realism in the same sentence? But if there were a Hulk, wouldn't he be almost an anamoly, an urban legend? There's be Hulk sightings in the southwest and occasionally he'd turn up in weird places, and Hulk websites and conventions and fake films and the late, lamented WEEKLY WORLD NEWS would have headlines like: Anna Nicole Gave Birth To Secret Hulk Love Child ... or The Hulk Diet.

He'd be the Skunk Ape. Springheeled Jack. Champ. Mr. Atomic Green.

It's as easy for me to believe the character never killed as it is to believe he killed thousands.

And if a compromise is in order, well, I'm sure we can agree than if some of Thunderbolt Ross' men didn't make it out of those tanks, Hulk never murdered them. He's more like a force of nature, an act of God.

And BANNER Doesn't Count...
by Buzz Maverik
Sep 12th, 2007
04:53:39 PM
...You get Brian Azzarello to write a comic, what do you think you're going to get? Yes, great writing but also a high body count.
JMS' influence
by Pomona
Sep 12th, 2007
05:13:29 PM
Isn't is a bit ironic that you like JMS' Thor, but you don't like the way the previous Thor series ended? It had a definite vibe of Vorlon and Shadows manipulating lesser beings for their own ends.
There's nothing wrong with Iron Man!
by grendel824
Sep 12th, 2007
05:17:45 PM
How could it have been more painfully obvioust that Iron Man was doing the right thing, both throughout Civil War and afterward? Sure, not everything worked out the way he hoped - the Clor thing was a huge mistake, but nothing takes Iron Man anywhere near resembling a bad guy. Cap seemed a little nutsy in parts of CW and in the Confession, where Iron Man rationally explained his position and showed that his stance was indisputably right and logical, and Cap resorted to name-calling and petulant whining. If you think Iron Man was portrated as the bad guy, either your reading skills are abominable or you read some completely different comics than I did and missed most of the core Civil War books. Or you're totally insane and incapable of rational thought, let alone rational argument. I was late in getting to read Civil War, so I heard all this whining about Iron Man being a bad guy, and when I actually read it I realized that the people saying that were just really stupid.
52 vs. Countdown
by Prof Challenger
Sep 12th, 2007
05:53:01 PM
First off, I guess you're all gonna have ta sue me but I found myself bored by 52 but I'm actually finding myself a bit more interested in reading COUNTDOWN. Yep. I'm bucking the trend. Not at all to say that COUNTDOWN'S PERFECT but the Rogues, the Challengers, and the backup Multiverse recap have kept me going back to the series. As for my comment about the events in 52 and its treatment of Doc Magnus. While I dropped the book itself, I kept up with the events by DC's quite well-done website covering the title.
And for anyone interested...
by Prof Challenger
Sep 12th, 2007
05:56:52 PM
http://www.dvdinmypants.com/ho tpants/sub/bca/keith.php I, of course, humbly recommend it. It is the reason why I've been absent from my appointed royal as gadfly and irritator of all things Talkback.
Don't misunderstand me stones_throw
by halcyonseven
Sep 12th, 2007
05:57:42 PM
I get that Prof gave us the context so we know where he is coming from. I'm not looking for a positive review of the title, I'm looking for a GOOD review. Not a half assed one by someone who can't put the issue into context. No offense Prof, I just don't get WHY you bothered to review it. Even if they gave it an "F", someone who could put the story into context would be a better choice for review IMO.
Take out the space between "ho" and "tpants"...
by Prof Challenger
Sep 12th, 2007
05:58:59 PM
in the above post. Cursed lack of editing feature. grrr
Of course Iron Man's a hero!
by Jinxo
Sep 12th, 2007
05:59:03 PM
I mean, duh! Obviously he's the most stand up, heroic guy around! Forcing anyone with a super power to choose between involuntary government service or the crippling of their ability? Pure heroism. Locking those who defy both choices away in a prison in another dimension where they have no civil rights? Pure courage and integrity.

Using horrible criminals as heroes, making the public believe they are reformed and good while really they are mostly dangerous, enslaved mad dogs kept barely under control? Top notch!

But the most admirable thing has to be when he took the death of his friend Captain America, a death he felt responsible for, and used that death to play upon the emotions of other heroes to lure them into a trap. Purposely giving his former friends the false hope that Cap was alive to lure them in, using others love for concern for dead friend for such a cheap explotive ploy? I mean, come on! Let's get the ball rolling for his sainthood now.

So, yeah, aside from the wee small thing where he cloned his fallen friend into a living weapon... well he's the swellest superhero ever!
Why did I bother?
by Prof Challenger
Sep 12th, 2007
06:18:43 PM
Because: (1) Nobody else was reviewing the thing, and (2) My reaction was my honest reaction to the comic. As such, it's legitimate and at least worth throwing out there for consumption. Not every book needs or deserves in depth analysis of why it's great or why it's not. I gauge the level of joy or disgust in determining where to go with a review. And sometimes it's a simple...bleh. The mix of analysis, commentary, and sometimes just a plain geeky "bleh" is what makes AICN unique and worth taking a gander at. You never can predict what you're gonna read.
Buzz, you must really hate 'Ultimate Hulk'
by CarmillaVonDoom
Sep 12th, 2007
07:45:52 PM
I would also LOVE to be the one to defend Stan Lee here, but the 'Last FF Story' was definitely coasting on prior glories.
Ultimate Hulk does not kill!
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
08:46:32 PM
Everyone knows all of those aliens and soldiers and innocent bystanders and the Abomination were really just robots.
Mike Wieringo dies at age 44.
by BongSabre
Sep 12th, 2007
09:04:49 PM
The funny books aren't so funny anymore. http://tinyurl.com/22avfa
Some help with Buffy, please?
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
09:15:02 PM
As a resident Vaughan faughan, I picked this up regardless of whether or not I'd figure it out. I got the genreal jist of the thing, but there's a few details I'd like to have cleared up. I've never actually gotten to know the Buffy-verse. I know there's a Buffy-verse and she hunts Vampires. That's about it. I figured out who Faith is. I assume Xander is Buffy's clever, charming sidekick, but everything else is kind of a guess. Who is the old guy tutoring Faith and what's with that tattoo he has? Also, what's the point of the scene between Buffy and Xander? Should I know something? And on an unrelated note, whatever happened to those Wolverine issues BKV was going to write?
The worst thing about being a Vaughan Faughan...
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
09:17:17 PM
He has yet really write something that bad, so nobody's going to qusetion your taste. We kind of have to spread our own nasty rumors.
Buffy
by Jinxo
Sep 12th, 2007
09:35:27 PM
Okay, here goes...

Originally there was only supposed to be a single slayer alive at any given time. Becuase Buffy died and came back from the dead there that caused there to be 2 slayers. Faith was a second slayer. She was the bad girl slayer and actually turned evil for a time before reforming. Now though there are tons of slayers.

In the past the slayer was guided by a group called the Watchers Council. Big group with one specific Watcher always assigned to a Slayer. The old guy is Giles, Buffy's Watcher. The Council though was blown up and sois kind of out of the game I think. Giles seems a very proper conservative Brit on the surface but it has been revealed that in his youth he wasn't quite so stuffy. He was a troublemaker that got him the nickname Ripper. The tattoo would seem to be a bit of proof of his wild past. It may mean more.

Also, Giles has shown in the past he will willingly do very dirty work to protect Buffy from it. Buffy had an enemy named Glory who was unbeateable and evil but had a Jekyl/Hyde alter ego who was powerless but an innocent. The best way to take Glory out for good? Kill the innocent alter ego. So that Buffy wouldn't have to, without her knowing, Giles smothered the alter ego. This plot points again to this side of him and his knowing that of all the slayers, Faith is the go to girl for similiar missions.

Xander is one of Buffy's "sidekicks" but... I dunno if that is quite the right word. Buffy has a whole extended group of friends - The Scoobies - who she realy truly depends on. The show made a point that past slayers went it alone and mostly lived shorter lives than Buffy. Her friends are actually vital to what she does. When I think of sidekicks I think of a character who, you know, could be dismissed without causing much of a problem for the hero.
Jinxo, you're the best!
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
09:39:39 PM
Thanks man. Are you enjoying this story as well? I don't know if it's enough for me to go buy every season on DVD, but I might watcha rerun on TV now and then now that I've got the idea. Seriously, thanks a-freaking-lot.
355's real name...
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
09:42:22 PM
SOB!
...
by blackthought
Sep 12th, 2007
09:52:25 PM
um...am i skrull?
Buffy Part Duex
by Jinxo
Sep 12th, 2007
10:10:48 PM
I'm enjoying the story. The art is sort of uneven. Like some of the art is really good and then at other points I'm like, what the hell? Faith should not be looking like an elderly Betty Davis.

Watch yourself with the Buffy thing. See, you think you'll just dip your toe in and next thing you know you could get hooked. I have a friend who never had an interest in the show. Then she started catching repeats on cable in the mornings when she has some free time. Bam, hooked. I guess they're switching the show from daily to weekends and she's freaking out. I told her I'd loan her the dvds so she could watch the whole series from the start and she did a haappy dance.

I'm telling ya, it's a slippery slope.
Hmm...
by loodabagel
Sep 12th, 2007
10:29:54 PM
Well, thanks for the assist pheonixmagi. If you ever want to know about the Beastie Boys or current Spider-Man continuity or who the coolest Inhuman is, I'll be there for you. I think I can manage a few Buffy episodes. I mean, I'll only do it once. (Oh wait, unless you live in Montana, you probably won't get that joke.) But if I get into Buffy, what will I counter-attack my Buffy friend with when he mocks me for reading Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane? Do I want to lose that?
Oh, wait, the Hulk never killed because if he did...
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
12:28:40 AM
...it must have been one of those vacationers from Planet A that they talked about in the latest issue of SHE-HULK! ooooohhh, Slott, I think this may come back to bite us all...
Jinxo apparently didn't read Civil War...
by grendel824
Sep 13th, 2007
12:31:31 AM
... because half of the things he's saying to make Iron Man "look bad" are really, really warped to look worse, and the other half are just plain false. You might as well start pointing out that Cap finally went over to the Nazi party, supporting fascism by fighting for a world where power is the only rule of law - "Too bad, democracy - I don't have to follow your laws because I'm stronger and faster than the unwashed masses and have a nifty shield, so if I see anyone doing anything I think is "wrong," I reserve the right to chuck your car at them - maybe with you or your children inside. You don't like it? Get some powers and stop me or shut up. You don't have the right to vote about things anymore. I don't know what I was thinking fighting for democracy all those years."
Okay Grendel...
by Jinxo
Sep 13th, 2007
01:24:20 AM
Please point out exactly and specifically I'm wrong. Especially the out and out lies. Because I did read Civil War. The whole damn mess. I even read most all of the tie-ins.

Point #1: Register, be depowered or go to jail. True. ANyone with a superpower was required to register. No debating that. But beyond that several instances made the case that it wasn't just register and that's that. You had to register and then work as a superhero for the government. Good pay and benefits but that is your job and do what you're told. We were shown super types going throwing away their masks and going into hiding for that very reason. Firestar leaps to mind. Option #2 was inprisonment in the negative zone prison. Again, not possibly a lie. The climax to the whole sereies centered on heroes breaking out of said prison. It was also firmly stated the prison was outside of the US and so civil rights did not apply to anyone held there. Guantanamo Bay for superheroes. Option three is to be shot full of depowering nanites. She-Hulk stood up to Stark and got her powers turned off right quick. And removing such abilities is a form of crippling someone. Lets say the whole world is blind except for a handful of people. Technically speaking those people are at an advantage over everyone else, enough so that to such an advantage could be abused and be a danger of sorts to others. So a law is created saying the sighted should be blinded. It evens the playing field but it's hardly right and it is crippling them.

Point #2: Villains as heroes. Again, not sure how this is in dispute. The whole reason The Thunderbolts is a fun comic is that it's a team chock full of the worst of the worst forced to act as heroes. Forced via various technical means that aren't infaliable (what fun would the comic be if they were?) and which can actually harm the "heroes" they are restraining. I'm not sure how you put a positive heroic spin at all on sending villains out to hunt down your former allies.

Point #3: Captain America. Stark does place partial blame for Cap's death on himself. I didn't make that up. Ironically I don't think he is to blame but Tony Stark does. They did a very moving story about Stark beating himself up for what happened, feeling so bad about it. Very moving. Semi-redeemed the character. Then shortly after that Ms. Marvel tells Spider-Woman, hey, Cap's not dead. We've got him tucked away and we're healing him up! Spider-Woman tells the New Avengers and the whole group goes on a mission to check it out. Result? It was actually a huge trap. Stark and his gang drop on The New Avengers and try to take them into custody. That's as close to a lie as I come in so much as Ms. Marvel tells the lie about Cap. But Ms. Marvel would never have made such a play on her own, on the fly. The character spent most of her life working as an agent for the government and at that moment was a conscripted hero working for the government. You think someone with that background is going to make such an audacious play on her own say so? Hell no. You would only make such a move on your boss's say so. Who's the boss? Tony Stark. The man runs SHIELD and The Avengers. Did he come up with the idea of the lie or merely endorse it? Doesn't matter. Either way it's repugnant. If he came up with the idea it's horrible that a man so guilt ridden could conceive of exploiting his own friend's death. If Ms. Marvel came up with the plan and he only endorsed it it's horrible because of the same reason. It's just a smidge less sickening.

Are heroes dangerous? Yes. They are vigilantes acting outside the law. Should some system be in place to assure the safety of the general population. You bet. But the way Tony Stark and company went about it in Civil War was creepy and wrong. Forcing people to become government agents, face depowering or imprisonment for indeterminate spans of time without rights to a trial is not right or heroic. I forgot, you can also hide your power away and pass for a regular Joe, as long as you never use that power even if doing so would save lives. Because if you do, your back to choices A, B and C.
Did anyone else notice...........
by Solrider77
Sep 13th, 2007
04:06:45 AM
That FF: THE LAST STORY could've been the prequel to FF:THE END?
Thor
by Kree42
Sep 13th, 2007
06:23:08 AM
just should have had disassembled crew come back that was some of the best true storytelling since walt was on the book ,jms is a bit overhyped. Fire Joe Q and bring back Jim Shooter or hell a monkey tossing shit at a board could make better comics.
a few thoughts (SPOILERS)
by Shigeru
Sep 13th, 2007
12:03:46 PM
Y #58: Okay from the moment she was on the cover I kind of knew she was going to bite it. She's played the tragic female hero role throughout the whole series and it was pretty much a forgone conclusion that she wouldn't make it to the end. I think a much more shocking ending would have been her living...
But anyways the real spoiler of that issue is Yorick revealing who/what he saw at the end of his 'suicide intervention'. I...kind of liked it!

But I gotta give Kirkman credit for a big huge HOLY SHIT moment at the end of this week's issue! ***SPOILERS****!!! He's back, he's dickless, he has a tank, and he's FUCKING PISSED! They're all fucked.
Registration debate
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
12:24:36 PM
It's no irony that this debate comes on the heels of the anniversary of 9/11. That's what the whole registration thing was about, anyway. "How much are we prepared to sacrifice in the way of personal freedoms and liberties for the sake of improving security?" It's the same thing that goes on in the world of IT security: if you want your system to be more robust, it will have to be less secure. If you want it to be more secure, it will be less functional and flexible. There is always a trade-off. The problem I have with the whole registration thing is that is was a good idea which was then carried out in a sympathetic or totalitarian way, depending on the whim of the writers. Look at the way Iron Man was portrayed in THOR #3 - "Hey, glad you're not dead, but now, it's my way or the highway, cretin." As if Tony Stark would have no idea how that might come off with the God of Thunder. As if they did not have decades of stories chronicling their mutual respect for one another (remember, when his series and reign were ending, he called on Cap and Iron Man, his two closest allies.) So in one sense, I take all of Stark's "fascism" with a salt-lick, knowing that much of it is being done to serve the story. But regarding Point #1, the fact is, everyone in the MU does NOT have powers, and the analogy that its like everyone but a few are blind is unfair. Sight is not a destructive capability (Scott Summers not withstanding) and most powers do come with an offensive aspect. It's not the advantage that is the problem, it is the potential for destruction. People are required to register their handguns, but we don't make people register big sticks. So clearly, there should be a threshold set, under which people don't have to register. If you can make flowers bloom, for example, then no big. But if you can make then grow into killer plant monsters, then you have to register. The comics should be covering the political and social debate regarding who has to register and who really does not. As for Point #2, this is just comic books for comics sake, and who is Joe Q to say no? Should Tony Stark, a "futurist", smell a potential problem with a team run by the former psychopath and that includes at least two more? Have we learned nothing of chaos theory from Jeff Goldblume? Of course he would see a problem with it, but it makes for a fun story, so it is "allowed." But I really don't place that at the feet of Tony Starks character. As for Stark using Cap's death as bait, well, that actually does seem in character. Stark has a history of making Nietzchean moral shortcuts, if the end is sufficiently beneficial. He doesn't seem blind to his callousness, but in the overall calculations, sentimentality seems to take less and less significance. But that sort of comes back to the old "if you could kill Hitler as a youth, would you?" and for some people, they could not do it, and for others, it's a very cut and dried equation. Personally, I see Iron Man as the right person at the right time, doing a dirty job and opening dialogues that others could not or would not. He hasn't done things the way I would liked to have seen them done, but many of them were necessary. If he had my sentimentality, he might not have been able to do them at all, and then how many more Stamfords would there be?
Registration debate - uh, with formatting
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
12:27:21 PM
It's no irony that this debate comes on the heels of the anniversary of 9/11. That's what the whole registration thing was about, anyway. "How much are we prepared to sacrifice in the way of personal freedoms and liberties for the sake of improving security?"

It's the same thing that goes on in the world of IT security: if you want your system to be more robust, it will have to be less secure. If you want it to be more secure, it will be less functional and flexible. There is always a trade-off.

The problem I have with the whole registration thing is that is was a good idea which was then carried out in a sympathetic or totalitarian way, depending on the whim of the writers. Look at the way Iron Man was portrayed in THOR #3 - "Hey, glad you're not dead, but now, it's my way or the highway, cretin." As if Tony Stark would have no idea how that might come off with the God of Thunder. As if they did not have decades of stories chronicling their mutual respect for one another (remember, when his series and reign were ending, he called on Cap and Iron Man, his two closest allies.)

So in one sense, I take all of Stark's "fascism" with a salt-lick, knowing that much of it is being done to serve the story.

But regarding Point #1, the fact is, everyone in the MU does NOT have powers, and the analogy that its like everyone but a few are blind is unfair. Sight is not a destructive capability (Scott Summers not withstanding) and most powers do come with an offensive aspect. It's not the advantage that is the problem, it is the potential for destruction. People are required to register their handguns, but we don't make people register big sticks. So clearly, there should be a threshold set, under which people don't have to register. If you can make flowers bloom, for example, then no big. But if you can make then grow into killer plant monsters, then you have to register. The comics should be covering the political and social debate regarding who has to register and who really does not.

As for Point #2, this is just comic books for comics sake, and who is Joe Q to say no? Should Tony Stark, a "futurist", smell a potential problem with a team run by the former psychopath and that includes at least two more? Have we learned nothing of chaos theory from Jeff Goldblume? Of course he would see a problem with it, but it makes for a fun story, so it is "allowed." But I really don't place that at the feet of Tony Starks character.

As for Stark using Cap's death as bait, well, that actually does seem in character. Stark has a history of making Nietzchean moral shortcuts, if the end is sufficiently beneficial. He doesn't seem blind to his callousness, but in the overall calculations, sentimentality seems to take less and less significance.

But that sort of comes back to the old "if you could kill Hitler as a youth, would you?" and for some people, they could not do it, and for others, it's a very cut and dried equation. Personally, I see Iron Man as the right person at the right time, doing a dirty job and opening dialogues that others could not or would not. He hasn't done things the way I would liked to have seen them done, but many of them were necessary. If he had my sentimentality, he might not have been able to do them at all, and then how many more Stamfords would there be?
A couple of rebuttals
by Jinxo
Sep 13th, 2007
01:28:07 PM
Okay, the sighted versus blind analogy. Real world, you're right, sight would not be a destructive ability. But in a world where everyone else is blind that would be a frightening advantage from the perspective of the general population and could be used in a destructive way. Less so accidentally but it could be used to be purposely destructive. Something in line with the end of Silence Of The Lambs where Buffalo Bill stalks Starling in the dark with nightvision goggles. Someone with sight who wanted to do evil would have a scary advantage. So, hey, to protect the general pop from those who would abuse that sense, all who can see must be blinded? You can't punish someone for bad actions they haven't taken yet. Someone abuses their power, causes harm, THEN you restrain them. That's the way the law works.

As to the rest, I never was arguing if any of what I sited was out of character, just whether Stark's actions were creepy, morally questionable and ill advised or fine and dandy as Grendel seems to feel. He also said I was distorting what happened and out and out making stuff up. I didn't make anything up. And, Amodeo, as you say, how Stark was portrayed varied from comic to comic. That can be said to be the reason the spin on Stark's actions varied but that is in the comics, that's not me twisting anything. Everything I pointed out happened in the comics with the same general spin I put on it. Am I wrong?
Jinxo v. Grendel
by Bluejack
Sep 13th, 2007
01:46:14 PM
Iron Man is Marvel's best villain. Gotta love that armored fascist. Your points are spot on. the funny thing is, I was reading IronMan, Director of Shield and I realized that I love Iron Man this way. He's great as a misguided fascist.
Nah, you're not wrong...
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
02:29:01 PM
...vis-a-vis Starks actions and their overall spin.

I still would debate what constitutes "power" or "advantage", but that's not really the issue, is it? The issue is registration, which was not a punishment for bad actions taken. If one is supposed to register a firearm and one does not, then THAT is "bad" and therefore punishable. But no one was put in jail for simply "having" powers, were they? And I forget, did registration mean that they had to WORK for the government, or simply submit to training (like getting a drivers license?) I'm still not sure the overall idea was bad, which means that Iron Man is a terribly flawed hero more than a very sympathetic villain.

though either way, I'm trying to figure out what differentiates him from, say, Dr. Doom, and see more similarities than differences.
P.S.
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
02:46:15 PM
good defense of your blind/sighted analogy...
Iron Man is boring... !!!!***Y-Spoiler***!!!!
by loodabagel
Sep 13th, 2007
03:32:04 PM
So does that mean that Ampersand dies next issue? I didn't really see it coming, but once it got to the scene, it was inevitable. There was a small doubt in my mind that it wouldn't happen and that's what really made it sad. Those pages were sheer agony and when you got to the one, it was actually really hard for me to even turn the page. I think it speaks a lot the characters and the writer and the... Goddamnit BKV! FUCK YOU!
Jinxo is so right!
by Homer Sexual
Sep 13th, 2007
03:33:49 PM
Sorry, Grendel. Can't side with you at all. And, well, I have a high reading level so I don't think that's the problem.

I guess I can see how a certain segment would feel Stark is still heroic, but I think Millar is being disingenuous when he says that Iron Man was the hero and Cap was the villain. He did do Ultimates, after all, with very different portrayals of those two. In the Ultimate U, IM is heroic, and a case can be made that Cap is villainous. Millar's problem is that he really doesn't respect the USA, so he puts our country down rather a lot, and saying Stark is the hero of CW is a perfect example of that.

Oh, this is just a tiny peeve of mine, but regarding the Black Canary review, "disinterested" means impartial, "uninterested" means ,well, not interested.

Ohh, and regarding "Y"
by Homer Sexual
Sep 13th, 2007
03:35:11 PM
That comic is an A+ issue, but certainly a huge, if not-unexpected "NOOOOOOO!!!!" from me. Now, I can't see the "happy" ending I was hoping for. Bummer! Still, kudos for making me care so much for a fictional character.
Hmmm
by Jinxo
Sep 13th, 2007
03:35:20 PM
You are right. Folks aren't being arrested for having powers but for failing to or refusing to register. But from that point on the choice is join, depower or be locked away without until you agree to options A or B. Locked away indefinitely without having done anything but fail to register is way funky.

As to whether you have to be a government agent or just be trained up, there is some vagueness there but what facts there are lean towards you have to be an agent. Firestar went into hiding as a regular citizen rather than sign up. If she could just register, be trained and go home to live her life, why hide?

Likewise all we've been shown are folks being trained to use their powers and being sent into combat with them. In Avengers: The Initiative we see them gather up kids like Cloud 9 to train them. Then we don't see them being asked, hey, wanna be a hero? Instead they are trained start getting sent out on missions. If they show me one guy who gets trained and leaves to go home and be a teacher I'll withdraw my complaint on this point.
Homer!
by loodabagel
Sep 13th, 2007
03:40:23 PM
Straight A's! What's your (or anyone's) favorite Y story?
Safeword...
by loodabagel
Sep 13th, 2007
03:52:30 PM
Is my favorite story. Huh.
Homer sexual - rats...
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 13th, 2007
04:23:39 PM
oooh, I would have noticed if someone else had done that. you are so right.

There is grammar check and spell check, but no stupid check as of yet.
Safeword
by Shigeru
Sep 13th, 2007
07:52:37 PM
Is by far the best Y arc. I was going to type "so far" but um 2 issues left... can't believe it. Ok I'm in denail and that issue killed me.
"If she could just register, be trained and go home..."
by Shigeru
Sep 13th, 2007
07:55:20 PM
why hide?"
The principle of the matter, I suppose.

Homer: "In the Ultimate U, IM is heroic, and a case can be made that Cap is villainous." Um please explain how Ultimate Cap is villainous. And please leave out the kicking Banner in the face incident, because that little shit deserved it.
Shigeru...
by rev_skarekroe
Sep 14th, 2007
08:01:05 AM
Ultimate Cap shoved a kid once. And if you're really into France or really hate Dubya you might find some of the things he says and does "villainous". I think he's just an imperfect hero who always tries to do the right thing. Indeed, I prefer him to 616 Cap.
My personal favorite moment...
by loodabagel
Sep 14th, 2007
09:14:55 AM
Was then end of comedy and tragedy. Funniest useof the word shit I've ever seen. Also, Ultimate Cap isn't evil, he's just a D-bag.
AMBUSH! Pushing up some blackstriping!
by Squashua
Sep 14th, 2007
09:20:06 AM
Nice. You got an upgrade. Does that mean that the comic section might actually get the respect it's due?
I've been into France ever since...
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 14th, 2007
09:34:00 AM
"Franch Fries..."

"Franch Toast..."

"I want my two dollars! Two dollars!"
Ultimate Cap
by stones_throw
Sep 14th, 2007
10:07:10 AM
He's not villainous but he's definitely not the idealistic, embodiment-of-the-American Dream good guy that 616 Cap is. A lot of Millar's characterisation of Cap in CIVIL WAR was straight from the Ultimate universe, like calling Iron Man a "pampered punk". I don't think the "real" Cap would discriminate on wealth, especially with all the good Tony's done with his.
Best talkback ever...
by stones_throw
Sep 14th, 2007
10:17:04 AM
...over at Vern's review of ZOO. There's a guy saying he's "slept with" a horse.
616
by Bluejack
Sep 14th, 2007
10:51:00 AM
I've been reading Marvel for about 30 years and I never encountered this terminology. could someone explain it for me. Also, I can see how Captain Amrica in th eUltimates could b seen as a bit of a jerk, but not a villain.
Bluejack
by Redmantle
Sep 14th, 2007
01:29:22 PM
I never heard about Earth 616 either, but I read recently that it was a creation of Alan Moore's on some Marvel work or another. Rather than use the "Earth 1" or "Earth 2" conceit of DC, Moore's take was that Marvel Earth was just one of any number of earths, and therefore was given a random number. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.
616
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 14th, 2007
02:54:00 PM
Yeah, that was it, like 20+ years ago, though I think there is contention that it may have been Dave Thorpe or Don Thorpe or someone who actually coined it. I can't remember.

in any event, it has seen a lot of usage only in the past few years, since the Ultimates cropped up. You will also see it alot in Exiles, which makes sense, since they hope between Earth-realities, and 616 is an easy way to designate the traditional Marvel U.
the Exiles also "hop" between realities
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 14th, 2007
02:55:17 PM
darned lack of editing feature...
Cap vs. Iron Man
by grendel824
Sep 14th, 2007
08:48:01 PM
Okay, Jinxo was already "smacked down" appropriately (and I'm not saying he didn't have ANY valid argument, just that the complete opposite kind of argument is equally valid) about his exagerrations, so I don't need to repeat them. If anything, Tony feeling "responsible" for Cap's death shows that he is LESS in need of any kind of redemption - only a villain or psychopath would do these things WITHOUT questioning himself or shouldering any blame (deserved or not). Tony KNOWS he was right, and PROVES this logically, but he still feels bad about it, and he still questions himself - because he's a good guy. And the Initiative does NOT need to show some SPBs registering and then leaving to do a non-powered job, because that would be boring. You can't assume that something logical doesn't happen just because it's not pictured. If your logic made sense, then I could argue that no super-hero ever went the bathroom, since most of them have never been shown doing so. I'll assume you made that argument out of ignorance of the logic and not out of an attempt to make an argument you knew wasn't valid but hoped to slip past people who disagree with you.
Homer's reading level...
by grendel824
Sep 14th, 2007
08:58:54 PM
... not as high as he thinks, given that lame stuff about the Ultimate characters. Millar was absolutely correct in his assertion - while his primary assertion has always been that NEITHER character is 100% correct and that BOTH are protagonists, if you look at it rationally Iron Man was on the "right" side. He had rational, logical reasons for doing everything he did. His actions risked lives but were calculated to save many more lives than he risked. Cap had a "gut-feeling" that he didn't like what was happening, and went against the will of the people of United States of America and the country's laws, endangering people left and right. Iron Man could clearly demonstrate the consequences of his actions - "A happened, which causes B, which causes C. If I don't support the Registration Act, here's what will happen (a whole bunch of people die, super-powered beings will be put in concentration camps, and then some menace will come along that wipes out humanity because they executed all the SPBs for being a clear danger to their way of life). If I DO support the Act, then I can create something far less extreme that will still serve the will of the people without instituting fascism and getting a ton of people killed. When some supers resist, we'll take them out as quickly as possible, hopefully without killing any of them." Cap, on the other hand, used his influence to get his friends to fight the government, got some of them killed, and his reasoning was more like "OMFG, Tony is totally a dick! Some nebulous rights that I can't point to in any Constitution that enable us to break the law and assault anyone we want to without being at all responsible for the consequences are being trampled! Lets endanger lots of lives so we can continue to break dozens of laws so we can feel good about ourselves after doing massive amounts of property damage. Who cares if another school goes up in flames? We shouldn't have to be competent or accountable if we're going to pretend to be cops and firemen and paramedics, despite our lack of training!" Suuuure... Cap's totally the one "in the right" on this?
REgistration
by grendel824
Sep 14th, 2007
09:16:06 PM
How Registration is supposed to work is that anyone using powers in public must be registered and trained to use those powers. Nobody who just sits at home and doesn't walk around shooting eye beams at shoplifters or flying in violation of the FAA or endangering pedestrians by doing backflips over their heads should be locked up, nor have they (some exceptions, like springing on Luke Cage the moment the clock strikes midnight, can be seen two ways - either they're picking on him because he is an ACTIVE super-hero and everybody knows that he intends to KEEP fighting in the streets without proper training and accountability, OR whoever pushed these things into happening made sure that some downright WRONG actions were taken to ensure that there would be two camps fighting each other - likely the same shadowy conspiracy that made sure Cap was instantly fired upon the moment he expressed any doubt about tracking down his friends at SHIELD's behest). Because remember, Cap was MORE hardcore than Iron Man about heroes being trained and accountable - I've seen dozens of comics where he mentions to non-Avengers level characters that they had better get proper training or he'd be taking them off the streets if they endangered anyone. He would've been the first in line to support registration if it hadn't been railroaded into law way to quickly as a knee-jerk response to a disaster AND he hadn't been attacked before it even passed. How can you claim to be at all rational if you can't see that Iron Man is NOT a fascist (and in fact has taken every possible step to prevent fascism, including spearheading a rational Initiative instead of the Mutant Massacre/Days of Future Past scenario that anyone with half a brain in the MU could see coming after House of M, let alone Stamford). You HAVE to make stuff up and lie or seriously and incompetently distort the facts to make him a bad guy. You literally have to ignore "The Confession" and the core Civil War books and claim they never happened to say anything that Jinxo and/or Homer seem to champion as the truth. It is no longer okay in the MU for a private citizen to grab a mask and an unregistered firearm and open fire at anybody they please. It's no longer okay to beat the snot out of anybody who isn't as strong as you, put their head through somebody else's windshield, and then just walk away without being held responsible for your actions. How is that NOT a valid position for the citizens and government of the MU US to take? I understand that these are comics and it's a fantasy world and that things like real-world laws and logic are often ignored, but the basis for this storyline is that the MU IS still something like our real world in that it has laws and people who fear for their safety and are no longer comfortable with a government that turns a blind eye to giant guys in spandex hurling their children like missile weapons at somebody they claim is a bad guy without facing the consequences of their actions in a legal and moral sense. If you sit around with a police scanner and race to emergencies and try to do CPR on people yet you refuse to become CPR certified, you WILL BE ARRESTED. It is not okay in the real world, and the premise that it's not okay in the MU and that Iron Man sees the rationality of that is not the least bit "wrong" let alone indicative of fascism. Now OF COURSE there are problems - otherwise the anti-reg forces wouldn't just be irresponsible idiots who miss the good old days on anonymous vigilatism -they'd be extremely villainous. Even WITH the problems with the Initiative (murky and inconsistent enforcement, attacking Cap, not giving Luke Cage a chance to decide to retire and live a normal life, making a temporary jail that is the only prison in existence that could ever hope to hold the lawbreakers they'd be bringing in in situations where due process would mean repeatedly allowing godlike beings free reign to stroll back out on the street to start tossing school busses while "awaiting trial"), they come off as being pretty irresponsible in opposing it violently instead of peacefully in the courts or through protest by leaving the country or through civil disobedience. REally, Jinxo and Homer don't have a single valid defense against any ONE of these assertions, at least not yet, let alone enough of them to have a logical leg to stand on. I hope they come up with SOMETHING though, as I'd enjoy the stories even more if they weren't so heavily weighted in favor of Iron Man being by far the more heroic character.
why lie?
by grendel824
Sep 14th, 2007
09:29:58 PM
In response to #3 (despite Iron Man clearly NOT NEEDING REDEMPTION) where you say Iron Man is "semi-redeemed" and then lies about Cap to catch the New Avengers, I don't see a huge problem with this. He'd rather trap them in one place and off-guard and take them in alive and personally rather then watch them get taken down and killed by something like the Thunderbolts. Cap tricked villains ALL THE TIME - I don't see anything wrong with Iron Man, who has never been more concerned about never lying about chopping down cherry trees, doing something similar to bring in fugitives. But it's also pretty obvious that he's purposely allowing the New Avengers to operate, and is possibly even supporting them. I'm not sure HOW, because he's smarter than me (and you), but the writers can't be nearly as brilliant as their characters, and there are clues. For someone obsessive enough to argue about characters on a message board (and don't get me wrong, I think it's fun - you don't seem to be taking it personally and I hope that continues because I'm not actually attacking you, despite the sarcasm), you're not noticing the subplots, themes, and foreshadowing that's going on there. It's almost painfully obvious if you know anything about serial fiction and storytelling, as they're dropping clues all over the place. And if I didn't know I was on to something when I said on another board that it was pretty clear to me that Cap and Tony KNEW what was going to go down and KNEW they'd have to play against each other for long enough to get whoever was behind the problems to surface, I did after I was asked by somebody with a conspicuously corporate e-mail account "how I knew what I knew."
...
by blackthought
Sep 14th, 2007
10:51:36 PM
...
oookaaaaaaaayyyy...
by rock-me Amodeo
Sep 14th, 2007
11:02:25 PM
...
But...
by loodabagel
Sep 15th, 2007
09:29:44 AM
"Gut Feeling" is a great Devo song and Civil War was a lousy comic book. Although I do like the direction Grendel was going in on that last one. It kind of makes sense. Let's ee him develop it some more.
Well...
by Jinxo
Sep 15th, 2007
05:35:10 PM
I actually agree it is likely that much of what is going on is not what it appears. It would not surprise me at all if in the end Tony is "playing" the villain. ANd to do that effectively he has to play it to the hilt. Maybe even going further, being scummier than he would normally just to sell it. To reference other geek material, it would be like the Next Gen episode where whether Data is sentient is on trial and Riker is required to present the absolute strongest argument against Data's case he can in order to, in the end, save Data. Could be. I'd like it to be. If that is how it goes then he's redeemed. But that's still an "if". For me right now, kinda creepy dude.

Actually my take was that they might make use of the "giant danger" Reed Richards sees coming. That maybe that danger from tactical point of view will need characters in certain positions to defeat it. Like the illusion to any attacker now is that all the heroes are basically catalogued. They're all registered, all on a big list somewhere, all controlled by the government. Sort of like Iron Man tricking the New Avangers in one location to grab them up but on a bigger scale. Only there's still the rebels who won't end up falling into any such trap. And those heroes by the very nature of who would refuse registration are the alpha dogs, the most headstrong, willful, bold... the bad asses. Then Tony Stark hasseling them switches around because his hunting them becomes more about him actually training them, hardening them, readying them (without them even knowing it)to fight the bigger badder foe that is coming.

If that goes down then I will love the hell out of it and it would be a great payoff to all the pain and turmoil. But, again, that's an "if". I hope they are going there. And assuming that is the plan I hope they don't get sidetracked into other plots so that they never get there. I hate when comics do that; set up a great premise and then get so caught up with other interfering events and such that the initial premise never really gets to pay off.
Metal Men writer needs to back to school
by Avengerdude
Sep 16th, 2007
09:51:49 AM
I loved the Metal Men when I was a kid; the comic was ultimately responsible for me getting a Chemistry degree. But the science in this incarnation is dreadful. I know comics bend physics et. without concern but if a writer states a scientific fact then that is what it should be. Instead we have: "Newton's laws of thermodynamics" and Lead + Chlorine making Lead Sulphite", to name but 2 howlers. Impressionable minds may be reading this! Anyway can't get too grumpy because the BBC are showing an hour long documentary on Steve Ditko tonight. Now that is cool news!
Ok, so who's reading Sinestro Corps War again?
by Thalya
Sep 17th, 2007
02:39:31 PM
Is anyone else waiting with bated breath for the big moment at the end of the Sinestro Corps War when Guy Gardner sets his eyes on a resurrected (and hopefully in-peril from a Sinestro Corps besought Big Apple) Ice? What his reaction would be? (especially now that Lanterns can kill Sinestro Corps members?)

Johns just set the stage with a small line Guy said after being freed from Lyssa Drak this issue, about one of his worst fears/worst memories was seeing her die. Gah, would that those two would get married after Final Crisis, it'd be the ultimate repudiation of all the tragedy that's befallen the DCU since Identity Crisis!
"villainous" Ultimate Cap was poor word choice.
by Homer Sexual
Sep 17th, 2007
02:46:38 PM
I guess "antihero" maybe was a better choice. I was trying to say that Ultimate Cap is, as stated, a douchebag, a jerk, whatever...not the role model Boy Scout to whom we are accustomed. Similarly, Iron Man currently is more of a big ass than a villain per se. He believes he is doing the right thing. So Ult. Cap, regular Iron Man, et al, would be in that group that includes Black Adam and others who see things their way, some would call them heroes, many would not.

Now, my disagreement with grendel doesn't indicate my low reading ability. But then, since I didn't completely read grendels long, single paragraph responses (just skimmed them), he may have a point. I don't think so, though. And grendel, I'm not trying to change your mind, nor have my mind changed.

once again...
by blackthought
Sep 18th, 2007
04:55:34 PM
we are not alone.
spang
by Squashua
Sep 28th, 2007
12:21:45 PM
licious
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