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Herc’s Seen Episode 8.4 Of
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER!!

Hmm? by PirateEmery	Jun 9th, 2007 02:04:14 AM
We're the bad guys? Typical...
Oh, and first... by PirateEmery	Jun 9th, 2007 02:04:39 AM
^
bit hard to follow by samsquanch	Jun 9th, 2007 02:34:34 AM
not sure what was going on there towards the end...
Not first by thestarkiller01	Jun 9th, 2007 02:45:46 AM
but the closest I HAVE ever and probably WILL ever get to being first. You guys are just too fast with that s*#t. Oh, and I'm loving this series so far. Then again, Whedon could write an issue with nothing but a demon taking a big crap for 24 pages and I'd probably think it's freakin' gold. I'm just excited to have Buffy back.
Actually it was kind of hinted who kissed buffy by gwarwilleatyou	Jun 9th, 2007 03:05:41 AM
She puts on that girls chapstick and comments on its cinnamon flavor. Much like she commented in issue 3 after the kiss about tasting cinnamon buns.
I was just going to mention that by Archangel7883	Jun 9th, 2007 03:10:45 AM
But I missed the hint about Kennedy. Where was that? I'm too lazy to go dig up the comic again.
'Freshman “Lost” staffer Brian K. Vaughn'? by vroom socko	Jun 9th, 2007 03:44:45 AM
Herc, don't undersell BKV. The man's the writer behind books like Y: The Last Man and Ex Machina. Oh and don't forget he's also the man who created The Runaways, that other comic that Joss is currently writing...
New Joss Whedon show "BOOK" in the works for the CW!!! by Man_of_Stool	Jun 9th, 2007 04:08:01 AM
You heard it here first. Can`t stop the signal.
Trouble with the comic book "season"... by Jinxo	Jun 9th, 2007 05:23:20 AM
... is what TheApostle said. Each issue does not really equal the content of a TV episode. Maybe two issues. So then you end up getting the equivalent of one "episode" every two months. I mean, I get that that is just how it goes with the length and format of comic books and I am happy to be getting any Buffy but, man, I can't help but wishing for more.
Four issues = 1 hour of television by Prof. Pop-Cult	Jun 9th, 2007 05:47:00 AM
The first four issues comprised a one-hour episode. Most of Season 8 will consist of 4-issue story arcs.
Four or two by Jinxo	Jun 9th, 2007 06:00:10 AM
You know what, I was going to say four issues equals one episode but in a way it doesn't. Straight up based on what is on the page it 4 to 1 is probably on the money. But looking at the flow of the story, taking into account that to fit the comic book format the story would be trimmed and streamlined more than if they made it on TV... I think that makes it 2 to 1. For example, all the stuff with the army over the course of 4 issues? That would never play out in a single episode. You wouldn't have then set up wanting to get Buffy, hooking up with Amy and then playing out their whole plan in one episode. It would be at least two with extra action and extra character moments thrown in.
Buffy by kwisatzhaderach	Jun 9th, 2007 06:13:39 AM
total and utter horsecrap.
The first issue that was really good SPOILERS... by DanielKurland	Jun 9th, 2007 06:14:46 AM
That whole Warren monologue that ends with, "Well, are you bored NOW?" would have been so fucking great on television. It's the first thing that I really loved from this comic so far.
thestarkiller01 by kwisatzhaderach	Jun 9th, 2007 06:15:47 AM
Whedon did write something with nothing but a demon taking a big crap for 2 hours, it was called Alien: Resurrection. Way to go Joss.
'Freshman “Lost” staffer Brian K. Vaughn' by newc0253	Jun 9th, 2007 06:18:18 AM
i think Herc knows who Vaughan is. i think he also knows we know. i think he was merely noting his latest job, for those coax visitors who might not be aware that he's writing for Lost now.
It keeps selling out before I can get to it! by Yeti	Jun 9th, 2007 06:29:09 AM
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Yeti Smash!!!
GreatOne2... by Wungolioth	Jun 9th, 2007 07:33:19 AM
I actually haven't read it yet, just picked it up yesterday, but I believe Warren there is referring to when Amy cast that spell to turn Willow into Warren when she kissed Kennedy the first time, from season 7. The big reveal being that Warren and Amy had already been working together at that point. The "And hey, THAT was quick." refers to the time between Tara's death and Willow hooking up with Kennedy, just a little more salt in the wound.
What's that about Fred? by slfricky	Jun 9th, 2007 08:56:03 AM
"* Xander Harris has a line on page 10 that to my ears sounds suspiciously like, “Winifred Burkle. Go.”" No idea what your referring to there, Herc.
Recaps online? by buffywrestling	Jun 9th, 2007 09:09:37 AM
As comic stores in my area are few and far between, I have been going to majorspoilers.com to get the recaps. They are ok, some pics but not all. Does anyone know of a better site, without downloading illegally, that is? Herc, I love that you have continued these talkbacks but you don't give me enough info! poke
I'm hungover and this faggy non-spoiler shit is by James_O'Nasty	Jun 9th, 2007 09:10:47 AM
High-larious! So glad I clicked on it!!! This is worse than the Sopranos... fuck sake, you haven't spoiled a thing. Fuck.
So goddamned retarded by Tallguyme	Jun 9th, 2007 09:37:37 AM
... to call this episodes and seasons. It's a fuckin' comic book for christ's sake. get over it.
Question by Mr Ages	Jun 9th, 2007 09:44:08 AM
If Warrren didn't die then how did the first take his form? I thought the first could only take the form of a dead person.
Wheedon: Bring Back Fred! by Raymar	Jun 9th, 2007 09:44:15 AM
The death of sweet-as-candy Winifred Burkle was the most tragic thing in the history of fiction. Seriously. Her very soul died for pete's sake! So to remedy this may I suggest at some point in the comics that Spike and a now-repentant Illyria go back in time (maybe with one of those time-travel kar demons) and save Fred. Or at least her soul.
Mr. Ages, a very good point... by DanielKurland	Jun 9th, 2007 09:50:05 AM
Now that they've established that Amy saved Warren moments before he would have died, there is no way the First could have taken his form. Or did he actually die and Amy brought him back? Wish Whedon could answer this.
Why won't this awful show just die? by Flim_	Jun 9th, 2007 10:42:22 AM
Please go away... I mean, really.
cant get into these comics by blindambition238	Jun 9th, 2007 10:44:08 AM
It feels like im reading buffy fanfic
Hey, Flim_ by Spamgelus	Jun 9th, 2007 10:48:46 AM
What kind of a total loser ARE you? You click on a topic that you hate, read the article, then insult everyone who doesn't feel the way you do about it. It must suck to be so lonely. Get a fucking life, buddy.
Re: First as Warren by Catullus85	Jun 9th, 2007 10:50:57 AM
I assume the official explanation would be something along the lines of "Warren as an average, mortal human did die when flayed, Amy merely transferred his essence into a magic based form. Thus the First was able to assume his mortal form." Or some other similar BS. Working in a universe where the rules of magic are fuzzy and unestablished gives them great wiggle room for apparent inconsistencies like this.
Amy's a pretty powerful witch by newc0253	Jun 9th, 2007 11:58:29 AM
if Willow could bring someone back from the dead, i'm sure Amy could too.
Re: Amy's a pretty powerful witch by Mr Ages	Jun 9th, 2007 12:19:57 PM
But in Season 7, shes mad @ Willow for being more powerful than her.
Warren: I call shenanigans. by redfang	Jun 9th, 2007 12:25:34 PM
If Amy had brought Warren back to life (or unlife), I wouldn't have minded. However, in this issue they went to awkward-expository-lump lengths to make it clear that Warren didn't die, thanks to Amy. Am I the only one who really didn't care for this issue? I dug the first 3, but (in addition to the Warren problem) this one was hard to follow, somewhat unsatsifying (wtf happened to Willow?), and really had the feeling of having two issue's worth of story awkwardly crammed into one (given that they're apparently skipping next month, is it possible that something like that is actually the case?).
BKV? that i have to read. by ashhole	Jun 9th, 2007 12:38:39 PM
i loved the show, but have never bought a buffy comic. if brian k. vaughn is taking over the writing duties, i'm in. everything i've read of his has been absolutely stunning. his work is poignant, funny, and engaging, qualities he shares with joss. he's one of the best writers working today and i'm excited to see what he'll do with the buffyverse.
I'm sorry... by blacklodgebob	Jun 9th, 2007 12:42:17 PM
This crap shouldn't be in coax. Can't you just append this on to @$$holes? This isn't a TV show Herc, and it's sad. Can't we just let Buffy as a TV show go?
Who reappears on the final page? (spoilers for past issues) by bah	Jun 9th, 2007 01:03:16 PM
So far it's been Amy, Willow, and Warren, all reappearing at the very last moment of the "episode" (much like Giles did in season 6 and Angel did in season 7). As if Whedon didn't have enough cliches in his hat.
Oops, you covered that by bah	Jun 9th, 2007 01:05:20 PM
Didn't you.
For those who can't find it locally by Tarven	Jun 9th, 2007 01:41:27 PM
I've used TFAW.com a couple of times. Their shipping is a bit high, but I've always gotten the comics in good condition (even with the crappy USPS service in this one horse town). Plus they take subscriptions so you'll always get your copy. (and for the record, no I don't work for them)
please don't call these "episodes" by dragon-lord	Jun 9th, 2007 02:45:22 PM
You are confusing people with this comic book crap.
why isnt this in the comic books section? by provider84	Jun 9th, 2007 02:56:57 PM
i mean "season 8", i keep getting excited thinking i missed something about a new season on tv and then i realise it is a comic book that most Buffy fans will not read.
The First as Warren by mediocrates	Jun 9th, 2007 03:28:19 PM
Warren did die. He even says (in reference to Willow's "Bored Now") that they were the last words he heard in his mortal life, so he did die. And what he is now probably isn't human.
Herc. by Poopoodio	Jun 9th, 2007 05:08:18 PM
It's not "seen episode 8.4", it's "read issues 4". It's as bad as you insisting series 3 of the new Dr Who is series 29. It's confusing and wrong. Quit being an ahole.
Everyone who is a hater FUCK OFF by CarmillaVonDoom	Jun 9th, 2007 06:21:25 PM
Seriously...it IS Season 8...this show is NEVER going to die....EVER! Fred hopefully will STAY dead like Bucky and Jason Todd both should have...ILLYRIA is a great character that I hope comes back in Angel Season 6. The Whedonverse is going to keep growing, just like DC and Marvel.
Provider84 by underscore_only	Jun 9th, 2007 06:42:20 PM
then you're a giant idiot.
Vertigo Style? by Boffin	Jun 9th, 2007 06:54:04 PM
Remember when Sandman introduced that 4-part arc + 1 personal stand alone format. I think they may be trying to mimic that style. Herc said BKV is doing 5 issues, so it may likely be the case. I believe he currently uses that format for Y: The Last Man.
The Buffyverse is a pile of shit. by Hint of Smegma	Jun 9th, 2007 07:28:44 PM
Whedon's only good work is Firefly. The only reason Buffy was so popular was the fact that Gellar is a hot chick and there was always the hope that one episode would break new televisual ground and she'd drop her clothes in a full 3D frontal before engaging in a lesbo orgy with Anya and Darla. Or maybe that's just me.
Season 8 by buffywrestling	Jun 9th, 2007 09:00:13 PM
Herc, and others, call it Season 8 because it's printed on the covers of each book: Season 8. It's how it is being marketed. What is the confusion?
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH FAN FICTION ! ! ! by Pound Sand	Jun 9th, 2007 09:35:01 PM
....,exclaimed the man dressed as a Stormtrooper to the other man dressed as an Orc. It's my Buffyverse/Whedonverse/Viggove rse and I'll read what I like...,
Winifred Burkle. Go. by bah	Jun 9th, 2007 09:43:43 PM
Why is everyone so confused? Angel said those words to rally everyone as they were splitting up to try to save her. Whatever Xander says on page 10 is similar. I neither watched Angel regularly nor read the comic, and I got it.
HERC! THEY'RE PUTTING SARK ON HEROES!!!!! by chrth	Jun 9th, 2007 10:08:15 PM
I think we are in need of a Talkback! http://tinyurl.com/3azv9b
This is ME talking about BUFFY by Brians Life	Jun 9th, 2007 11:04:30 PM
Hey Talkbackers, why would some of you COME into a TB on Buffy the Vampire Slayer JUST to spew venomous bullshit...I've accepted that some of you are 14 and think NOW what you're doing is cool...man wait till you're 20 and you realize how much time you've wasted. Anyway, Season 8 has been spot on so far and I'm REALLY glad they didn't end this issue with a "GUESS WHO'S BACK"...that would've gotten tired. For those bitching about being "confused" by the use of SEASON or EPISODE...you're dumb. Those that think Sarah Michelle Gellar's attactiveness had more than 5% to do with fanboy enjoyment of Buffy....ya just don't get it. Deal with it. Whedon has writtenn some SHIT movies (I do take his THEY CHANGED SO MUCH excuse into consideration though, but he knows what fanboys wanna see. The guy writes good television and SO FAR, some damn good comic books. That's all.
He knows what fanboys want to see, eh? by Hint of Smegma	Jun 9th, 2007 11:07:13 PM
Oh, the originality.
Smegma by Brians Life	Jun 9th, 2007 11:23:24 PM
Where you referring to MY originality or that of Joss Whedon!?! CLARITY is another "ity" word ya might wanna look up.
Smegma...instant apologies...instead... by Brians Life	Jun 9th, 2007 11:30:57 PM
Dude, I never snap back like that. Apologies, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just curious because I saw Firefly well before I watched Buffy on DVD...I was of the same attitude. Have you given Buffy a chance beyond the first season?
I Will Not Accept this Comic As Canon by tonagan	Jun 9th, 2007 11:45:15 PM
And will hold my breath until everyone agrees.
I don't like that Amy's a villain by Drath	Jun 10th, 2007 12:03:51 AM
You know the poor girl did nothing to deserve being stuck as a rat. In fact there were much worse characters who deserved that fate--Buffy user Parker from season 4 comes to mind. Yet somehow they got to thinking Amy was no good and deserved to be stuck that way and by the way she must be a villain now. And they never failed to mention she was an ex-rat in the commentaries of the DVDs either, like this is something she deserves to be ridiculed for even while we redeem murderers in this series. If she had been a spoiled brat in the beginning like Harmony, I could maybe get the animosity, but she wasn't so it has never made sense. But I do like her and Warren being like the new Spike and Drusilla duet. Although somehow I bet their love is more like Spike and Harmony. I can't imagine Warren's love being genuine, and poor Amy has been taken to a real dark place so she's probably very maleable. Here's hoping she's converted to the good guys' side. Also, I hope her mother comes back somehow, that was a scary woman.
Brian.... by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 12:17:25 AM
...unfortunately I've seen all of the Buffy episodes due to my wife's love of all things tacky, except for moi of course. The show was seven seasons of so called witty remarks and martial arts....of course, if I was an evil vampire who knew I was about to fight an accomplished vampire killer, I'd have shot her from a distance but I guess that's just a ludicrous idea. It was not a good show, end of story. It sure as hell wasn't as clever as it was touted here or in the mind of Whedon. Now Firefly was indeed original although it did suffer from an overabundance of Whedon's unrealistic 'witty' dialogue, which always licks balls.
Drath...about Amy by Brians Life	Jun 10th, 2007 12:22:17 AM
Amy DID turn herself into a rat with no apparent means of turning herself back...kinda stupid of her. I also think that Whedon and company were willing to consistently bring her back is a testament to the character. They could have easily just never picked up the story again...the fanboy in me loves things like in Season 4 where Willow accidentally turns her human for a second, but doesnt realize it and turns her back before Amy can say "NO!"...great stuff.
yeah, but Amy's always been a bit power hungry by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:25:33 AM
like mother, like daughter. And it was her own spell that turned her into a rat, right after she threatened the Sunnydale residents (even though they were under a spell themselves). So she's always been a bit morally ambivalent. She certainly was pissed that her magic buddy Willow got drawn back to the Scoobies, thus the season 7 spell. So I can totally believe she'd be a bad guy. And to all the idiot haters: 1) you're wrong. About the show, the comic, etc. Everything really. 2) as was stated, the 'season 8' thing is a marketing ploy, plain and simple. I'm sorry you can't get your little brains around this. The four issues = one episode is an approximation. Is it exactly like a television show? Of course not, you idiots. One's a comic, the other's a television show. But these are Buffy stories that Joss himself wants to tell, and they're the continuing story of the characters he created, after the events of the show happened. So what's the problem? Buncha frakkin whiners. And yeah, I totally picked up on the cinnamon buns thing, but that was after a re-read. So does that mean Buffy might follow Willow's lead? Hm. Though I'm still wondering if she's actually crushing on Xander, which would be funny, since he's clearly over her and after Renee. And did the last page of this arc remind anyone of Peter David's Fallen Angel, with the whole 'kay' thing? Could be interesting. Sucks we gotta wait 2 months for the next one.
All I can say is... by GIRv2	Jun 10th, 2007 12:27:25 AM
what a bunch of fuckwits you whiny little bitches are. WHO FUCKING CARES if JW wants to call this Season 8. I believe the whole point is to say specifically "This is a direct continuation of the shows storyline. This is canon" It differentiates this series from the other Buffyverse comics, which may or may not necessarily be part of the "true" continuity. Even Frey could not be considered in continuity now, since events here would change (significantly) her major backstory (retcon time). I think a lot of you Buffyhaters are just narrow little boys who are afraid to be "labeled" (read Gay) if they like the show, because of course a show with girls and vampires is somehow a niche item for girls and queers. Please! You like Firefly but not Buffy. Well River is pretty Buffy-ish, at least during the fight scenes. Look, here's the point... we watch and read this stuff because we like this man's voice and ideas. You may get one or two clunkers, but even the clunkers benefit from Wheadon's gift for character and dialogue. Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Astonishing (my god, like the only fucking X-title I've been able to stand since before the debut of that fucking abortion, Liefield). The one thing they have in common is a fresh look at tired themes. Yes, Firefly kicked major ass. Joss wasn't the first to think of "space as the old west", but he made it sing. I'm not gonna change any monds here... I'm just sayin'.
hint of smegma by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:27:52 AM
looks you really kinda missed the point of the show there, buddy.
Smegma... by Brians Life	Jun 10th, 2007 12:28:48 AM
Nothing is perfect, my friend. We forgive things their mistakes when they have an large amount of good qualities. This is life. Firefly was indeed good and I find that Whedon's dialogue suits the fantasy world he's creating. He litters his creations with very comic book like moments...good cliffhangers, snappy banter and interesting mythology. But ya ain't a fan. No big.
GIRv2 by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:30:48 AM
I'm not clear on what messes up Fray's backstory here. You have the scythe, and there's still a lot of future to go before the world becomes like it is in Fray. And oh yeah, word.
Oisin... the point of his show was idiot conversations? by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 12:35:26 AM
...whoops. Well, not sure I actually missed that point, Im think I hit it dead on. Brian, fantasy worlds in tv and film are fine by me - however I always found that his dialogue is what took me out of the worlds he was telling the story about. His writing is fine apart from that, like I said I found Firefly immensely enjoyable - but his dialogue is so self satisfied it really takes me out of the moment, so to speak.
Dialogue by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:35:52 AM
Ok, you can definitely tell that the dialogue on Firefly and Buffy came from the same author - but Firefly's dialogue is totally different than Buffy's, with its particular Western/Irish/folk cadences, inversions, Mandarin swearing, and almost Shakespearian rhythms. And I always love when people bag on 'witty dialogue' as if it was a bad thing (or that Joss invented it). Like we'd rather hear people talking like idiots. Or it's 'unrealistic'. 'realistic' dialogue on screen is usually pretty darn boring, if you ask me.
"unrealistic" witty dialogue by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 12:36:38 AM
Smegma's right. There should have been more realism on series about a teenage vampire killer and space cowboys. I'll take that kind of writing just about every cookie-cutter drab "realistic" dialogue every single time.
actually, smeg by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:39:21 AM
nice name by the way. Red Dwarf fan? If you think the show was just about martial arts fighting and vampires, yes, you did miss the point. There's this great literary invention called met-a-phor and sub-text, and oh yeah, that whole thing about female empowerment. But yeah, I'm sure the martial arts were the most important thing.
Whedon's Willingness to Mock Himself.... by Brians Life	Jun 10th, 2007 12:45:11 AM
Just to toss this out there...one of the things that also separated the show from the bunch was that it was willing to make fun of itself. Cordy uncharacteristically walking into the library and saying "I'm just walking into the library for no reason." Anya and Willow saying they "never really got" that "your blood is my blood thing". Anya commenting on how those Vampires always seem to pick up martial arts. I'm ranting...I really dug this show. It took more than the first season to do it...but it stuck.
Yeah, you're right Oisin. It was such a deep show. by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 12:49:33 AM
There is so much subtext in it. I mean, when the mayor became a snake - what a metaphor. Plus that time she kicked that vamp in the face then did a backflip, landed on her hands and scissorkicked the other vamp before the cyborg demon got kicked in the nuts by the tortured vampire with a soul had so many levels it was like peeling an onion. Gives me shivers just to think about it. As to the comments regarding dialogue, witty dialogue is of course no sin. However when virtually every line of dialogue is crafted in such a manner, it kind of grates after about 30 seconds. Oh, and Boondock - nice attempt at sarcasm, must have been your first. Did I say the show needed to be more realistic...? Nope, but then don't let a little thing like accuracy or indeed context to get in the way of insulting someone who doesn't agree with your Buffycentric world view. The simple point is constant overly smug dialogue takes me out of the world I'm watching when it comes to TV shows - I can buy into worlds of vampires, robots, space travel, whatever - what I can't lose myself in however is continuously twattish dialogue that gets mistaken for anything more than it is.
Nerd correction by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 12:52:23 AM
I think it was Dawn who said that the vampires always seem to emerge from their graves knowing martial arts - season 7, episode 1. Wow, I've watched this show too many times. And if anyone's ever had any doubt about Joss' intentions with Buffy and the rest of his career. Go to his speech for 'Equality Now' on youtube, where he cleverly answers the question that he gets asked ad nauseum - 'why do you write such strong female characters?' It's really a great speech, and this on the heels of his blogged reaction (on Whedonesque.com) to the filmed honor killing and torture porn - I didn't think I could respect the guy more until I saw those.
Oisin.... by Brians Life	Jun 10th, 2007 12:55:36 AM
nerd. You're right. Damn you. (BRUCE LEE VOICE)
...huh wha..?! by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 01:00:20 AM
Smegma you're talking about accuracy when you honestly believe the show is just about someone beating up monsters with martial arts? Might as well just say that 2001 was just a movie about a spaceship.
oisin5199 by GIRv2	Jun 10th, 2007 01:01:53 AM
i stand corrected. i just went back to check on some things, and you are right... i mis-remembered how Fray got the scyth in the first place and... oh, let me just say "duh" and be done with it. :)
All right, you asked for it, smeg. by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 01:03:21 AM
You're obviously a bit slow and easily distracted by fight choreography, but let me give you a hint. High school is hell. It's a metaphor. Parents, authority figures, older boyfriends, patriarchy, government, are all demonic from the teenage girl perspective. I always love when I have to drag this tidbit out, but look, if the show was about just martial arts and witty dialogue, would enough scholars pay attention to it to justify an academic journal that's been running for seven years, all those scholarly books that deal with Buffy's impact on feminism, gender studies, political science, sociology, religion, philosophy, popular culture, performance studies, etc., university level classes and quite a few international academic conferences? Obviously, a few people must see something in the show you don't. Sorry if it's a little over your head. Or maybe you just weren't paying attention because wifey forced you to watch it.
Oh. My. God. by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:04:10 AM
Boondock just compared Buffy to 2001: A Space Odyssey. That was the deep end, mate. You just officially went off it.
All right, you asked for it, smeg. by GIRv2	Jun 10th, 2007 01:07:10 AM
Word oisin. Word, indeed ;)
Sigh. Smegma you're making this way too easy.. by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 01:10:17 AM
Now who's taking someone's comment out of context? I guess I somehow invisible inked how much Buffy the Vampire Slayer and 2001 was in my last comment somewhere... I must be that good. All I was trying to say is that sometimes, just sometimes, that a movie or show has a bit deeper meaning then what you see on the screen. It's an amazing concept, I know. But having you say that the deepest meaning in Buffy was that the Mayor was a giant snake is incredibly weaksauce. Hence the whole 2001 is just about s spaceship.
Oisin.... by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:12:47 AM
.....if your deep subtext is that 'high school is hell', forgive me if I don't keel over in the face of your sudden revelation. Of course, it all makes sense now. The martial arts trained vampires, every sodding last one of them, were totally integral to the point and the crap dialogue was just a fiendishly clever way of showing how terrible teenage angst is. Give me a break. As to that academic journal running a study on Buffy's impact, there's also a university that runs Klingon as a language course. Even academics can be divs, Oisin. The fact that there are plenty of other divs to buy into that is no great revelation to me, sunshine.
Boondock. by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:19:31 AM
Again, context sunshine. It means everything. The fact you think Buffy's subtext is remotely equatable to the levels of subtext running through 2001 is what makes me chuckle. The fact you then miss my point makes it even more of a laugh. Still, what do themes of human existence, evolution, the definition of life itself mean in the face of mopey teen self discovery? Plus on top of that, there there were the kicks. And the chops. And the wisecracks. Give me Whedon over Clark or Kubrick any day of the week........
Smegma, dude, your kung fu is weak. by Brians Life	Jun 10th, 2007 01:19:59 AM
Arguments are pretty shallow dude. Just sayin. Love the smugness though. Maybe I'm just baked.
Oh well, I'm not trying to convince you by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 01:22:48 AM
Just to let you know that you're wrong and I'm okay with that. If you know anything about the show, the fights and all the stuff you seem fixated on are just genre conventions that serve as window dressing, a vehicle for exploring psychological, social and emotional themes. If you don't see it, your loss. I'm sure there's plenty of other mindless stuff for you on television today. Buh bye. ps. buy the comic book! that's a general announcement, not directed at you Smeg. Wouldn't want to expose you to more of that 'crap' dialogue by one of the most respected and talented tv writers in the industry.
Well, as a fan of Buffy you'll be well tuned.... by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:25:09 AM
...to detecting smugness.
funny by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 01:26:40 AM
not that I think Buffy is necessarily on par with 2001, but those themes you mention - human existence, evolution, the definition of life itself - have all been dealt with on Buffy (along with quite a few more specific ones with a heckuva lot more application to everyday life). They just weren't presented in a psychedelic, overly pretentious Kubrickian way. And 2001 is one of my favorite films.
Season 8 by Jinxo	Jun 10th, 2007 01:32:15 AM
I don't think most folks issue with the term "Season 8" has anything to do with not understanding it as a marketing ploy but more with Hercules runnign with it to the extreme of speaking of it and posting about it as if it was actually a TV show, saying he's "watched" or "seen" the newest episode. If he talked about it like the comic book it would go down easier. For me I think my only problem with calling it Season 8 is that it IS a marketing ploy. Season 8 is Season 8 and canon right up until it isn't. If they somehow get another film/TV project up and running I think folks will feel free to disregard anything that happened in Season 8 they need to. And one way or another, in a few years after the hype dies away, Season 8 will fall out of people's minds. Right now it's a big deal but eventually it will be disregarded. I've read other canon and super-important super-hyped comic book TV extensions in the past and that's almost always what happens. So while I'm enjoying the hell out of them, I can't get all crazy excited about it reeeally being Season 8.
Smegma throwing out the smug reference? by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 01:34:38 AM
Ummm, but weren't you the one who just decided to take the time to sit down and type "the buffyverse is a pile of shit"... yet when someone defends their opinion about why they like a show they're suddenly smug? Excellent argument there, pally.
Oisin by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:35:09 AM
The fact you think anyone who doesn't see the depth to a show that you seem to makes them wrong in their opinions might be a bit of a wake up call for you. I simply don't think the themes touted by Buffy behind all the ridiculous dialogue and fight scenes were really that engrossing - and considering the window dressing, as you call it, wasn't engrossing either it was a pretty empty shell for me. But then, as has been shown many times, Whedonites are rarely able to see anyone who don't acknowledge his 'genius' as having a valid viewpoint. I've seen deeper explorations of the human condition in Will Smith movies.
Boondock by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 01:39:19 AM
Statements of objective fact can hardly be equated with smugness. Let's explore this shall we? Let's see...the Earth orbits the sun once a year. Fact, and certainly not 'smug' in it's inate truth. Hmm, what next? Ok, 2 + 2 equals 4. Again, not smugness shining there, just the cold light of mathematical fact. Ok, what now - oh yeah - Buffy was shite. There you go. Hope that enlightens you.
Smega so this is what you're saying then. by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 01:43:38 AM
With all of these "objective facts" means that because 'you' didn't like the show... that it's a fact that it sucked? What else do you like and not like so I can properly make sure I have all my facts straight? Yes.. not smug at all. You did enlighten me, thank you.
I have no problem with valid viewpoints by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 01:44:46 AM
when they're presented. And here's another hint - when I talk about others' opinions being 'wrong' - it's mostly tongue in cheek. Of course, opinions aren't wrong. But when they are presented based on a faulty premise with little or no evidence to back them up, I tend to mock them a little bit. When people who are a) other screenwriters, directors, actors, and critics working in the industry, and b) scholars who are experts in their fields, go out of their way to praise the depth and integrity of a man's work, and then I compare them to somebody making dumbass comments about martial arts who clearly has no idea what the show was even about, or what it was attempting, than I'm probably gonna go with the experts. And yes, that was a long fucking sentence. Deal with it. I have no problem debating (or agreeing to disagree) with people who actually have a workable premise to their arguments. Got any, or are you just going to keep repeating yourself?
Also... by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 01:52:36 AM
I guess I can also take from your argument that the show was so popular was just in case SMG would accidently get naked... is that why your wife watched the show? Or did she force you to watch it for that reason?
Tongue in cheek eh? by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 02:15:19 AM
Ah. Of course. But someone who isn't 'in the industry' and who fails to see the worth of a tv show obviously so dearly loved by yourself has no valid opinion? Hmmm. Interesting viewpoint. And of course, how could I fight such a workable premise? How about with this - I have acknowledged your comments about the subtexts in the show. I simply don't think that a: the premises were that interesting, or b: that when they were interesting themes that they were well explored or that c: the rest of the show was very good. But then, as you say, I'm not a director or a scholar, so what would I know about what I like, eh? And Boondock, if you really think that the males audience to the show, indeed a portion of the female auduence, weren't watching it to see a hot girl doing gymnastics then frankly you are deluding yourself. The average 13 to 21 year old watching this tripe wasn't doing it for the oh-so-clever social commentary. Why my wife liked it I still don't, nor will I ever, understand. Now, Oisin, hope I didn't repeat myself too much for you there. Hypocrite much? Oh the depth. The subtext!
Good on you, Smegma... you nailed it. by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 02:25:38 AM
"Why my wife liked it I still don't, nor will I ever, understand." As for just watching a hot girl... I don't even find SMG that attractive. Personally I enjoyed the idea that the show had some nice philosophical and metaphysical opinions about life in general and not just teen angst and kicking vampires in the junk. Again, sorry your wife forced you into watching a show you don't get... I go through the same thing when my wife watches Grey's Ananomy. I don't get the appeal of that show but I also don't feel the need to fly onto a Grey's Ananomy message board to show everybody how right I am by saying the show is shit. Oh, and Faith was much hotter than SMG. I might go watch some old episodes and hope that her clothes accidently fall off because that's why I watch I guess.
actually, you are wrong, smeg by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 02:32:32 AM
About several things. But first, the demographic statistics showed that the average age of the Buffy viewer was 29 (not 13), and I know of many male and female fans who were a lot older than that. And btw, the hotness factor is certainly part of the marketing of the show. No argument there. In Joss' recent speech, one of his flip answers to why he writes such strong female characters, is 'because it's hot.' But then he explains how an empowered female is hot in other ways. And no, your arguments aren't valid, because all you've done is offer opinions about dialogue. It's not for you, I'm getting that. But you can't make a blanket statement about a show's lack of depth and expect to not be challenged, especially when so many people disagree with you and have written books on it, and the fact that the fanbase is so large and full of passionate people who are willing to testify that Buffy has changed their lives. It's really ok that the show's not for you. Really. Now, um, why are you still here, again?
I still don't get what Herc's talking about... by NNNOOO!!!	Jun 10th, 2007 03:15:20 AM
... with his "Winifred Burkle" reference. What makes "Bring me back a witch" any kind of specific nod to Fred? Or am I looking at the wrong page 10?
If a show like Buffy changed their lives.. by Hint of Smegma	Jun 10th, 2007 03:22:15 AM
...then I dread to think what their lives were like. And why am I here? Responding to your comments, obviously. Or should I just be a good boy, accept your little put downs and slink away so you can get the final word? Sorry, I enjoy arguments far too much. As to your comments: I didn't ever think the casting of young good looking actors wasn't part of the marketing strategy, so sorry if I don't fall off my seat there. As to blanket statements, you've hardly made incredibly insightful explanations to your protestations of depth regarding the show....I'm just never going to see in it what you do....I acknowledge underlying themes are present but again as I have said I felt that when anything interesting was brought up, it just wasn't explored in a satisfying or meaningful way to me. Depth to me is not the hint of an interesting subject, nor is it being told it's deep because you say so. Example: the exploration of unwanted responsibility, turmoil created by the struggle against it and the final acceptance of it by the morally courageous, something that's been a theme in story's including Christ all the way to Buffy. Now as far as the deep exploration shown in Buffy, it consisted of lamenting she couldn't go out shopping or boffing the boys she fancied, oh and she looked a bit mopey too when she brought the subject up. As far as individual opinion goes, neither of us is going to change the others mind. In regard to 2001 as a previously mentioned example, plenty of well regarded critics and millions more ordinary cinema lovers think it's a superb and very thoughtful film; just as many think it's pretentious codswallop. I will say however that Whedon's only valid work to me is the aformentioned Firefly, not always for it's execution but for the fact he had the guts to try something very different. He pulled it off for the most part too, and while I'll never think he's as clever at writing as he obviously thinks he is, I do think it's a shame Buffy and Angel ran as long as they did while Firefly didn't get the time it deserved. And by the way, the fact that may people agree with you means nothing - I'm sure just as many agree with me, hell, Coronation Street has an enormous fanbase worldwide but you still won't catch me praising it. A film or tv show's popularity doesn't always equate to it's actual quality, which is to me the argument against Buffy.
"Winifred Burkle, Go" = Avengers Assemble! by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 03:22:44 AM
I believe Herc was saying that it was Xander's call of arms to go get Willow back. Much like when Angel sent out his team to go find a cure to save Fred when he said the same thing in his series.
"Bring me back a witch." by Hercules	Jun 10th, 2007 03:25:06 AM
Is just a great line that means "Save this woman who means more to us than anyone." Which is why it reminded me of "Winifred Burkle. Go." (It may not, quite understandably, remind anyone else of "Winifred Burkle. Go." But it reminded me.)
The depth of Buffy by Boondock Devil	Jun 10th, 2007 03:39:08 AM
This is why I dig the series. Late into it, Dawn really puts a big bow on Buffy's life. It sucks. She has all this power, she's intelligent, and probably could have really made a great life for herself but she was chosen to be the one that kills off the world's demons/monsters. Her life would be about killing things until something killed her. She'd never be able to get a decent education or job because of this life. Her family and friends will always be in jeopardy because she was chosen for this job. She'll never find someone to love because they too will probably get killed. A big pull of the series was the fact that she might have a bit of a deathwish. How many shows can you think of where your plucky heroine deep down probably wants to die? Explains her relationships with 2 different vampires.. why not love someone who's already dead? Plus there's the theological subtext of the whole show. I love the metaphysical underlinings like with her mom's death. Nothing supernatural. She wasn't killed by something magic. She just died. It was interesting to see how Whedon played off real death. I still feel like "The Body" is one of the best hours of television I've ever seen. It still strikes a chord with me today and I would think it would also lay heavily on anyone who's ever lost someone close to them. This is just a small fraction of what the show means. I hope you can understand why just saying it's about Buffy being mopey and wanting to shop seems far off about what the series really means.
One 22-page comic book = 10-11 screenplay pages... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Jun 10th, 2007 03:56:48 AM
Seriously, guys, if you convert a 22-page comic book to screenplay/teleplay format, it translates to about 10-to-11 pages. That's why Joss Whedon has in mind for most of the story arcs in Season 8 to be 4 issues each. 4 issues = 4 acts (plus opening teaser) of a one-hour episode. J. Michael Stracynski's Babylon 5 comic book (which only ran for 8 issues) was formatted this way, too (and, thus, it was the equivalent of only two 1-hour episodes). So when you read these first four issues of Buffy Season 8, keep this in mind. Once you do, you'll realize they together comprise the first 1-hour episode of a season premiere.
Can a comicbook jump a shark? by Long Tooth	Jun 10th, 2007 08:30:39 AM
I loved the series till the very end and dig the comic, but something tells me this is all some weird form of nostalgia and after Joss hands over writing chores it will turn into “Season 7” quality all over again.
Haters Welcome by Liquid_Daze	Jun 10th, 2007 08:44:59 AM
"Why do some people post on a thread just to bash a show/actor/writer/director?" Because it's a forum and people can leave whatever comments they like. How many people would come to this site if the majority of talkbacker comments were POSITIVE? Thanks for the heads up on the Vaughan / Faith issue, Herc. I might check that one out.
To add to Boondock re: Depth by buffywrestling	Jun 10th, 2007 10:16:07 AM
Good stuff there regarding Buffy's "deathwish" - suicidal tendencies can be prevelant among growing pains of the pressures of loss combined with the responsiblitity of becoming a single parent figure. Never mind the fact that outside factors are forcing you (watcher council, the scoobies themselves) to do things you don't nessesarily want to do. There was also may arcs - Faith's self esteem, Xander's not being "special", Dawn's selfishness, Spike's redemption, Willow's addiction - that spoke of many things other than being mopey, martial arts and shopping.g
Wow guess you put me in my place! by CarmillaVonDoom	Jun 10th, 2007 12:57:59 PM
Yeah, you're right 'TheApostle' Buffy really sucks. Thanks for your insights homophobic ass-hat.
'bring me back a witch' by NNNOOO!!!	Jun 10th, 2007 01:45:37 PM
Aha, thanks for the clarification Herc. Agreed there. It's a great moment, classic Xander, and I love the look on Buffy's face as she walks away.
Smegma by losder	Jun 10th, 2007 03:50:21 PM
Snobbery is the public face of insecurity. I enjoyed your patronizing use of the word 'sunshine'. Next time, try 'twirly-tits'. Or 'big dick'. 'Big dick' is like a verbal judo throw. Ok, listen up big dick, here's whats what.
still wrong by oisin5199	Jun 10th, 2007 04:34:55 PM
"It consisted of lamenting she couldn't go out shopping or boffing the boys she fancied, oh and she looked a bit mopey too when she brought the subject up." - just this statement alone shows the guy barely paid any attention to the show and completely missed the joke. Especially about the shopping. I don't think anyone's explained to him the meaning of the words 'irony' or self-aware humor. Watch 'The Body' and tell me it's about being mopey. Or watch 'Hush,' 'the Zeppo', 'Restless', 'Storyteller,' 'Superstar', 'The Gift' and countless other classic episodes and tell me there's not literary and philosophical content. Fuckwad.
Still happy by fatsackowind	Jun 10th, 2007 05:59:14 PM
But for the confusion of how did the Scoobie army know to have a mirror for the coming invasion?
Stupidity by Angua13	Jun 10th, 2007 07:25:45 PM
This is stupid. I can fully understand how a person may not like Buffy, but to criticize it so vehemently makes no sense to me, especially by someone who claims to have seen so much. SPOILERS UNDERNEATH But to more interesting things...is anyone curious how the new twist is going to play into it. I mean the slayers aren't going to be against everyone just the people that represent us all when it comes to fighting aka the military. I find it disappointing because it reminds me too much of my least favourite season.
Doppelgangland by buffywrestling	Jun 10th, 2007 08:49:51 PM
Is still one of my favorite episodes, one I can watch over and over. And it essentaily deals with Willow feeling taken for granted and wanting to change her role in the scheme of things. VampireWillow is meant to symbolize that change to the extremes. Heartbreaking when VampireWillow laments her situation and RealWillow can relate, "You noticed that too?" Also, some of the best lines for Rosenberg: "bored now", "I think I'm kinda gay", "Say, you all didn't take a bunch of drugs now, did ya?" Truly an excellent performance on Alyson Hannigan's part.
Revive the Slayer by ottoalvarado	Jun 11th, 2007 03:30:51 AM
What do the fans have to send to bring this series back from teh grave?
HERC: This isn't the last Joss issue. by Angelus_420	Jun 11th, 2007 04:59:31 PM
If you read the letters at the end of issue it says, "Buffy #5 sees Joss turning the focus away from the Scoobies to tell the story of one Slayer's short but profound career. Joss put a lot into this one. If it were an episode of the show, he would have directed it." (From the pics I've seen of the covers for 5 I'm guessing it's Faith)
Buffy/Xander shipping theories... by Wungolioth	Jun 12th, 2007 04:52:50 PM
I actually thought in season 7 that Buffy and Xander were going to hook up, simply because they were clearly becoming the Mother and Father figures in the household, and they would simply fall into it naturally over time. I think this thing in season 8 will end with Xander explaining the Mother/Father dynamic to Buffy and her realizing he's right, she will back off after that. Who knows though, Joss might just let Buffy/Xander shippers have their way.

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