In a year or two when they need a new DVD player they will go into a shop and see a HD-DVD player that also plays their original DVDs. It has a similar name to DVD and it also contains the initials HD which will match the HD TV they own.

They won't research it they will just go for the cheapest and most familiar choice. The early obtainers will not decide this as they are the rich people who know the facts.

Blu-ray just sounds too different to people who feel like it was only yesterday DVD came along. HD-DVD is simply an upgrade to what they already have.

Betamax proved that the technical side does not matter to the average consumer.

HD-DVD software sales showed strong signs with the Matrix Trilogy sales.

PS3 sales are slowing, and software sales still are no where near as strong as HD-DVD. In the most important category to most companies: Attachment ratio. HD-DVD kills BD in this category. In addition the Toshiba units by themselves outsell every manufacturer of BD combined by nearly 3 to 1.

WalMart is still in negotiations about their upcoming HD-DVD player (August). The initial offer was something like 6 million players which were to be sold at $199. WalMart says they want the number at $149. So if that deal does go through....Target will soon be making their own deal.

The result? $149 HD-DVD players for the masses. At around the same time Sony will have their $499 BD player out. If HD-DVD does get in Walmart and Target at that price point... the war is over.

I've had a number of people use my widescreen TV and surround sound system and completely butcher the presentation, despite the fact that they all genuinely love movies. They keep the sound on analog instead of going Dolby Digital. They don't even know what DTS is let alone whether or not to look for it. The picture quality is clear enough and you can easily make out everything that's happening on screen. They don't NEED that extra boost. On top of that, most people don't have the capacity to get the most out of their discs. Despite the fact that HD is growning, people have large libraries of completely untapped potential because they are just now upgrading their displays.

People like most of us, the truly hardcore seem to be reluctant to jump on the bandwagon. Personally, I think that HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray will both go way of the Laserdisc. Both satisfactory in their own right but never become more than just niche formats.

First, HD-DVD has 213 titles as of 5/29. Not 545. And Blu-Ray has 246 as of 5/29. Read http://bluray.highdefdigest.co m/releasedates_historical.html and http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com /releasedates_historical.html for the complete lists.

And as far as porn goes, you're also totally wrong. Porn will be on both formats, and furthermore, shouldn't even be an issue. How many people actually buy porn anymore anyway? The only reason the porn industry was such a factor when it came to the Beta vs. VHS war was because there was no other way to get it in your own house. With the advent of the little thing called the Internet, the porn industry picked both, and even if they had chosen a side, who wants to see the bumpy pimpled ass of those chicks anyway, in hi-def no less?

On the aforementioned HD-DVD/Blu-Ray website, read some of the reviews. There is a negligible difference as far as the quality goes. And, the fact that all of the studios except Universal are making movies on Blu-Ray, well, as far as the future goes, well, it sure looks like Blu-Ray has the advantage there.

As far as upconversion goes, current updates to Blu-Ray can do this as well. Thanks for pointing out something they both can do.

What I'm trying to point out, Harry, is that the reasons you picked HD-DVD over Blu-Ray seems to be flawed. And to answer your next question, yes, I do have a PS3, but I will be purchasing an HD-DVD unit in the next three months, so I don't really care who wins. My point is that you should make your opinions known, sure, but don't try to sway people based on your "filmmaker friends" or your incorrect stats or whatever.

Why don't you say that the reason you picked up HD-DVD is because that's what Grindhouse, Hot Fuzz and The Bourne Ultimatum will be on, because Universal is HD-DVD only? Good luck with trying to get Cars, or any of the Pirates movies, or Spider-Man 3 on HD-DVD. Yep, Blu-Ray has their exclusives, too.

So yeah, an unbiased opinion would be nice every now and then. No offense, Harry, but you're wrong, not for your opinion, but for your uneducated tirade.

These are the type of people who make up the majority and they don't care about quality.

1) Porn has not been "banned" from the Blu-Ray format.

2) The Matrix Trilogy won't be a huge factor - it will also be on Blu-Ray by the end of the year.

3) Blu-Ray players DO play DVDs, and upgrade them just as HD-DVD does.

4) Say whatever you want about Sony creating losing formats; They have studio support from all of the majors except Universal, who is the ONLY HD-DVD-only holdout and only has so many cards up its sleeve - mostly Spielberg movies and some TV shows. That's about it.

5) Yes, PS3s account for a large part of Blu-Ray unit ownership, but where is all the HD-DVD support from X-Box?? They have the capability to rival Blu-Ray numbers if they want, but why aren't they?

6) Yes, Wal-Mart is trying to get the prices down on HD-DVD players, and deals are being signed with lower-brand HD-DVD machine manufacturers to get cheaper players out on the market, but that's actually not such a great thing for the brand-name manufacturers. They'll have to compete by selling their machines at a loss, which was a huge step back for the initial DVD-manufacturing economy. HD just can't seem to wait to make the same mistake.

Plus, even if these idiot Wal-Mart shoppers (read: lower-middle class families without the patience to look into the format debate) do decide to buy an HD-DVD player just because it's cheaper, they're going to be pissed off when they find out they won't be able to buy Disney movies, Pixar movies, the Alien movies, the Die Hard movies, the Star Wars movies or the James Bond movies (that's the short list) on their new HD player.

Pretty it up all you want, HD-DVD-fans, but just be aware of one thing: Your format owes its entire existence to Universal's loyalty. The minute they decide to release on Blu-Ray as well, the format war is over. Blu-Ray will have all the cards. HD-DVD will be gone.

I quote: "Plus, even if these idiot Wal-Mart shoppers (read: lower-middle class families without the patience to look into the format debate) "

Nice. Very nice.

So porn choosing HD-DVD doesn't mean a damn thing. The format that wins, if it is a two horse race, will be the one that is most cost-effective. Laserdiscs hung in there for a long ass time, but finally died away, and they kicked DVD's ass.

FACT! Hammers can often cause severe damage to DVD players, especially when the hammer strikes the machine repeatedly with force.

FACT! The name of the moving company was Toshiba Moving Company.

FACT! I am a douche.

I'm not upgrading for several reasons, and the main one is the shitty look of all these HD / BR covers. I hate it that they take up valuable space on the cover of my favorite movies to make sure I know it's a BR disk, or an HD DVD. I know, goddamnit, I fuckin' bought it. The covers just look like crap. Just look at the cover of Robin Hood in this article. Gorgeous, original poster, and that ugly as hell red HD-DVD advertisement. What a blemish. I'm a collector. I also buy the cover, and I hate it when Hollywood changes it from the theatrical release, like the STAR WARS DVDs.

I'm inclined to think BR is the best of the two based on the simple fact that it has a lot more capacity to store information, and in the end, it's all about ones and zeros. The more you can store, the more you can do. Period, end of argument. That the films look different on either format is a matter of encoding, and that too, is being worked out. That's the underbelly of this technology. While we're talking about which format is best, they're figuring out how to best encode their flicks. And once they've figured it out, they'll all do it the same way, and then, it won't matter what format you buy it on, because it will be 6 of one, and half a dozen of the other.

BR may also be the only format that will be able to survive, once Hollywood decides 1080 is low def, and that's going to happen pretty soon (next 5 years, guaranteed). Think about it: the Genesis digital cameras are the first step to getting digital filmmaking to catch up with the amount of detail you can get on celluloid film (Lucas used them, Gibson did, too on Apocalypto – did you notice they weren't shot on film?). I don't think for a second that digital cameras will not surpass celluloid film in definition and clarity, it's only a matter of time. History teaches us that technology will surpass itself, and I don't think my grandchildren will know what film is, unless I teach them (and you better believe I'll be taking them down to my dark room to show them how you develop film in the dark, and print gorgeous pictures under a green or red light (your choice – I have both, to adapt to my mood), it's one of the great art forms.

As for Porn, it's been said on this talkback already: they're not going to decide anything, because they don't sell all that many units, be it HD, DVD, or VHS.It's not the business they're in, anymore. The future of porn is already history: it's the net. Porn practically invented video on demand. They certainly have popularized it, and they're going to keep making a killing like that. Also, the porn studios are on their way out, whether they like it or not (I fucking love it – let the girls get all the money – they do all the hard lifting, for fuck's sake). As porn stars become mainstream, we can see how it becomes acceptable to be in porn. And amateur porn scenes are starting to look professional. This will keep getting better. Pretty soon, porn won't be about fake titted Jenna Jameson types, it will be about your own neighbor. Hallelujah!

Anyway, ultimately, I think HD or all kind, is an intermediary step. Once Video On Demand becomes the norm (see Apple TV as the first consumer friendly proof that it will, and many, many, many, will follow), only collectors will buy hard copies of movies. That's you and me, folks. But by the time that is reality, BR and HD DVD will be history, because they'll have a format that can store three times as much information on its media... and really, it's all a good thing. The whole ULTIMATE MATRIX on one disk: it's a moment away.

I therefore side with everyone here: get what you want, and have a good time. Like Rip Torn said in MEN IN BLACK, "I'm gonna have to buy the White Album, again." Yup, and we'll be happy to do it. 'Tis the way of the consumer world.

There's another reason for not adopting, quite yet. I keep reading on The Digital Bits that Blue Ray and HD DVD drive makers are all releasing updates to their firmware, nearly on a weekly basis, because some disk won't play right. This is kind of like Microsoft updating Windows because it keeps fucking up. I don't know how easy it is to do, but if it's anything like updating your CD-ROM drive firmware, it's slightly advanced, and beyond the ability of the common folk. So if you want to make that CHILDREN OF MEN HD-DVD work, or if you want to play the dice game on the PIRATES Blue Ray disc, you've got some leg work to do, no matter how new your player is. To me, it's a sure sign it's way too early to adopt.

That's it for me, folks, I don't want anyone telling me I type like I got Diarrhea (too late).

As far as more resolution is concerned, think of the 70 mm film format. In IMAX, the film they use to project the image is that big, BUT they're running the film sideways, to get their image size, which is an area that is 48.5 mm wide and 22.1 mm tall. It's fucking huge, in these terms. It also means that they have to run the film through the projector 3 times as fast, to compensate for the sideways run. But consequently, you're not getting any "jitters" onscreen, nor do window blinds look like they're "dancing sideways" as the camera pans over them. I'm not an expert, but the technology to project film at a higher resolution is out there, and it has been for a while. The best "Dynamic Cinema" rides also use similar processes, sometimes projecting more than 24 frames per second, to get an ultra stable image, which increases the immersive feeling you get from watching the screen. In the end, the human eye is capable of seeing a lot more than 1080 p, and until they figure out what that max is, they're going to keep looking.

They'll be at it for a while, but not as long as it would be required if humans could perceive movement the way a cat does, which is estimated to being at least 9 times as well as we do! Great stuff!

The DVD Forum is going to vote on another issue of making REGIONS for future HD-DVD releases. This and the lack of space are the primary reasons for DISNEY, LionsGate, and MGM holding out.

Do the math and you will see that with PS3s the BD market has something like FIFTEEN TIMES AS MANY UNITS IN THE MARKET. All they have is a puny 3:1 edge? Wow that is something for Sony to be EXCITED about!

Toshiba is making money on their 2nd Gen HD-DVD players, the BD camp isn't. Samsung makes VERY little money on their player (about $60). However their Dual Format player coming out this Winter is going to be CHEAPER to manufacture than the BD only player...

It costs less to manufacture both the hardware and software on HD-DVD. The "size," limitation is going to disappear. All that will be left is Studio Support. That will change slowly in 2008. Universal isn't going anywhere. Their President just last week shot down the rumor of them going neutral. I believe the quote was "we'll be neutral when Sony is."

BD Players CAN NOT AT THIS TIME UPCONVERT DVDs as well as the Toshiba Units. Why? The Toshiba units use better video processing. Especially the XA2. That machine is one of the best DVD players on the market at any price. True videophile quality stuff in that unit.

Face it the masses will be buying their $150 HD-DVD players this holiday season to go with their $500 to $1000 HDTVs. The masses will choose the winner of this stupid format war. Not Sony, and not some gaming machine. Nor will Vista and MS be the reason. The only reason is stupid people are more likely to spend $150 than $500. It's sad when BD fan boys are waiting for a $500 player and it being a "cheap," player.

Meanwhile the Onkyo HD-DVD player(s) will be out at $300, $600, and $1000 respectively.

Personally I hope that Samsung unit is around $500 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Back in those days, I can remember similar although technologically more primitive conversations among my friends at school where kids would argue vehemently for whatever format their parents had bought, saying things like: "VHS sucks! Betamax's got a much clearer picture!"

The bottom line is that there have to be certain factors fulfilled in order for a format to win, which I believe still holds true today:

1) There has to be an upgrade in quality so resounding that even semi-catatonic and illiterate Joe Sixpack says: "Holy shit! I gotta get me one of these!"

2) Said upgrade must not entail the additional upgrading of Joe Sixpack's television and/or sound system, or he will swiftly lose interest.

3) The price for said upgrade must be perceived as reasonable for Joe Sixpack.

4) The interwebs notwithstanding, Joe Sixpack instinctively wants a system which provides free access to all titles commercially available.

5) Joe Sixpack will NOT commit until there is a clear candidate which fulfills these criteria, at which point a victor will be seen.

The fact is, ladies and germs, that neither of these systems will prevail in the long run. It's been too short of a timespan since Joe Sixpack's latest watershed upgrade to DVD, and most people are completely satisfied with what they have.

I've been deeply impressed with both the Blu Ray and HD DVD demonstrations I've seen, but then again, I was equally impressed in the early 1980's when I was shown a laserdisc demonstration.

Blu Ray and HD DVD are stopgap technologies - mark my words. Regular DVDs will be here for a long time, my friends, before anything topples them from the throne of home video.

How you can claim that his thoughts on the format war (misguided though they may be) are irrelevant on a movie site, HIS movie site, is just laughable.

Facing immediate obsolescence: Audio cassettes, VHS tape.

On the endangered species list; standard format CDs and DVD. Physical CD and DVD burners and dulicaters.

There can be only one: DVRs vs. VCRs. HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray. Stereo audio vs. Dolby 5.1.

Someone e-mail me when they decide on a format that will be around for the rest of my life, and meanwhile, where do I go to to get my money back on all this obsolete shit I was conned into buying.

"CDs are virtually indestructable and will last you the rest of your life. Sure, if they keep the players on the market. Meanwhile, where do I find a stereo phonograph cartridge for less than what my turntables cost me 20 years ago?

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D IVX )

Unless the DivX codec itself had a controversial start... if it did, I knew nothing about it.

When that day comes, which it will, a cheap, universal high def format will be swiftly adopted, but it will be neither HD DVD nor Blu Ray.

Putting movies you admit to hating on your "DVD Picks" list just so you can get the click-through fees from amazon.com is one thing, but to write a blatantly uninformed article saying "HD DVD is the way to go, and I'm using the player that we conveniently advertise on this site" is downright lame. I'm glad the talkbackers are calling you out on this. The whole upconversion part was a dead giveaway. That's like saying you are picking Diet Coke over Diet Pepsi because Diet Coke is carbonated.

Next thing you know, Harry will write a Spiderman 3 review where he defends the pathetic handling of the fan-favorite Venom character because he never really understood or cared for that character anyway, nor did his buddy Sam Raimi.

1. Porn is unlikely to be a determining factor in this particular format war. Why? Because most of the porn companies are wary of transferring to HD because of the extra production costs. Some big players (e.g. Dig Playground) may leap but most will not make the extra investment until this is settled. So, the amount of porn available in HD will be nowhere near the levels seen during the VHS vs Betamax war (where the impact of video was actually to lower rather than raise costs). Economics people.

2. This is NOT analogous to the VHS vs Betamax war anyway. With video we had various different formats (Video 2000 as well) with different physical sizes, so the notion of an all format player at mass market prices was out of the window. HD and BD are the same size - the technical challenge to manufacturing a tech demonstrator all format player has already been overcome (and that's what the LG model is, a tech demonstrator and nothing more). Now it's down to the consumer electronics industry to apply its traditional cost-down models to the hardware that goes into one of those, and that process is well underway. Expect AF-DVD at around $500 by Xmas and heading south shortly after that (matching the time when HD displays will really be reaching most households). So, to encourage people to opt for one player or another now on the grounds that there will be absolute victory for either format does the readers here a fucking huge disservice, Harry. We're really talking about something like DVD+ against DVD- even in the short term. All you are doing is bolstering the royalty revenues of one camp over another.

3. Capacity claims are of little relevance. The fact is that both formats can already contain movies in 1080p with ACRES of headroom. The extra capacity is - if anything - largely for the gaming industry and even there most of the leading developers cannot see themselves getting anywhere near the ceiling on either format for perhaps two or more generations. Certainly, they won't be there by the end of the PS3's life cycle, not that of the Xbox 360. In short, both formats are ALREADY more than adequate to take us through for at least a decade if not longer.

...porn...

....why are people so willing to be drawn into the pissing contest between the two formats and their backers? If we had any sense we'd fuck both of them off until they get their acts sorted out and commit to either a single format or hardware that renders the difference no more relevant than DVD+ vs DVD-

One player at reasonable retail cost and handling both is perfectly fucking viable and will be there by the time the mass market (as opposed to the niche market that frequents this site) is actually ready for the technology. It's fucking DVD+ vs DVD-. Who gives a shit, really? The only dumbness here is buying any player locked to one format, unless their primary motivation is a gaming platform.

Oh, and here's Microsoft's dirty secret (although also where they have been way cleverer than Sony. Substituting either a BD or an all-format drive for the current HD only model is no sweat. It's just a firmware issue. Yup, they hedged their bets.

Anyway, there's no virtue on either side of this debate - so why should anyone pick a side to start with?

and don't get me wrong, i'm no prude, i like porn just a much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is some things don't NEED to be seen in HD. HD is great for watching the baseball game and seeing individual blades of grass on the field, not so great when you are looking at the stretch marks around tera patricks' cootch. you know what i'm saying?

we'd all have a pair of boob and ovaries.

That being said, for those of you who don't want to see HD porn... I don't get you guys. Have you ever been with a woman that doesn't need to be pulled out of a box and pumped up? You know, a *warm* one you can get to scream like she's forgotten her alphabet ('xcept for the 7th letter)? I watch porn when I'm single because I don't have a pretty girl around to play with. But when I do, I don't dwell on her stretch marks, her pimples, her wrinkles.... I dwell on everything about her perfect, imperfect body with a billion pixels per eyeball, and I have only one report to make: AMEN!

For helping me start an interesting sub-topic on upscaling. I have a vested interest in it, because I take delivery of a new Panasonic plasma screen, next week. It's the TH-50PX75U 720p Plasma HDTV, 50 inches. I'll use it with a DVD player, a regular one, because I'm not going HD until I get a million bucks and can afford to buy THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD for the third (fucking) time, since I killed my Betamax edition, in 1999. And that's just one title out of well over 500, which give me comfort from their place on my shelfs.

So, anyway, I'm not ready, yet, 'cause I like my DVDs, thank you very much. I'm thinking that the screen itself is going to be such a huge upgrade from my 32 inch Sony tube, that it won't matter a bit what the definition is, coming out of my DVD player. It's just going to rock to my untrained eyes. BUT, I'm a consumer, and I'm here, aren't I, so I'm tempted by the up-conversion thing, because after dropping 2 grand on a new TV, what's an extra 100 bucks on a DVD player? I can get another 5 disc changer, hook it up along with my old one, and never, ever, ever, leave my couch again.

All this to say, I think I'll do this: I'll get the screen, then I'll go to my local price-fixing electronics store, and get an upconverting DVD player. If I like what I see, I'll keep it. If not, I'll return it. It's unscrupulous, but let's face it, all these fuckers do with their professional lives is try to figure out a way to get us all to buy another "new" edition of the White Album, so why hesitate to take advantage of their generous return policies? Prices are going up, anyway, so fuck 'em.

And that's about it, isn't it? It's about what looks good to you in your living room. I mean, I get wanting a bigger TV, I cracked and got one. But the whole HD thing... it just smells bad to me. It was only yesterday that they were telling me seeing in DVD was the next best thing to watching people fuck in front of me... I'm still under that spell. It'll take a while before they get me to upgrade anything but my fucking TV! Vive la RESISTANCE, putain de merde!

If you see what I'm saying.

I'm with you, lost.rules

RCA will have a player out again this Christmas, it will be the first RCA manufactured device (the previous HD-DVD player was a restamped Toshiba).

Samsung will have their combo player out this holiday season. They will be announcing a standalone HD-DVD player at CEDIA in September. It's supposed to be around $300.

So Onkyo, Samsung, Toshiba, and TWO Chinese Manufacturers will have players out this holiday season for UNDER $300. The Chinese players will be UNDER $200.

Meanwhile the BR camp is PRAYING that their Chinese Manufacturer can come through with a $350 player!

Combine that with Disney going neutral to help Wal-Mart (their biggest seller) sell their HD-DVD players....

And I'd say the war would just be heating up. First HD-DVD KILLED BD in sales in Software and Hardware in 2006 (with a 6 week head start, not a year like some idiots proclaim on this site). In fact HD-DVD lead into February of this year. Then BD took over with the help of the PS3. Things will even out, and then HD-DVD will take the lead again (and likely to never give it up) come the holidays.

That is unless the BD camp and Sony can find a way to match the upcoming cheap players.