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Capone Takes On The Priest/Molestation Cover-Up Documentary DELIVER US FROM EVIL!!

It's Bush's fault! by Mgmax	Nov 2nd, 2006 10:38:19 PM
I can't wait to see how they blame a priest boofing a little boy in 1975 on Bush.
This WAS at the Angelika in NYC... by keanho_in_nyc	Nov 2nd, 2006 10:41:38 PM
But was gone before I had a chance to see it. No big loss; going to that theater is a guaranteed miserable experience
If I Ruled The World, They'd Be Executed. No Trial by The Ender	Nov 2nd, 2006 10:55:18 PM
No trial assholes. Just a quick beheading and a follow up shit down your throat. Fucking pricks. A disgrace to the name that they pretend to be upholding. most Catholics dont know SHIT about the bible anyway, so stop pretending cunts.
South Park: Hell on Earth 2006 by Monknee	Nov 2nd, 2006 11:00:48 PM
Kids on leashes.
Red Hot Catholic Love! by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 2nd, 2006 11:16:59 PM
Well this must be a hard film for the denizens of Austin to review. With most of them being catholic and all.....(including some of the head honcho's of this very site!) I guess Harry's thick liberal catholic guilt will compel his blubbery carcas to see this film. Well I've got to go back to cornholing my favorite alter boy, before going to confession to be forgiven for my sins!! Catholic's..you gotta love em!
Capone by Johnno	Nov 2nd, 2006 11:37:41 PM
"Perhaps the most frustrating thing this film reveals is that there are still so many apologists out there who are willing to deny or excuse such foul behavior." Really now? What exactly did this doc show or say about people out there denying or excusing the foul behavior, huh? If anything it's the already thoroughly debunked thought that there was some cover up by the Vatican and Pope because several idiots don't know how to clearly read the Crimen Sollicitatiois document that apologists are ticked off aobut. What's even funnier is that your'e all so fixated when this shit happens in the Church, but won't bat an eyelid over the thousands of cases happening in your own schools or the serious pushes that are actually happening under your noses to decriminilize pedophilia and make it the next accepted sexual norm... If you're going to get your tempers all flared up, at least be educate yourselves and be fair in your denunciations!
Dearest Chauncey by Yappy'sDogTreats	Nov 2nd, 2006 11:41:18 PM
I'll take a bite of that delicious troll bait you're stewing! On a whole I'd have to say you're an idiot, and that the vast majority of Catholics are way cooler than the Backstreet Boys and Creed combined!
Dearest Chauncey by Yappy'sDogTreats	Nov 2nd, 2006 11:43:01 PM
I'll take a bite of that delicious troll bait you're stewing! On a whole I'd have to say you're an idiot, and that the vast majority of Catholics are way cooler than the Backstreet Boys and Creed combined!
Yappy'sDog Treats by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:22:24 AM
You say troll bait, I say it's the truth. Now let's see how many other Talkbackers agree with me? Not even the Backstreet Boys and Creed together can change the facts!! (I know alot of you talkback catholics, had your first gay experience with your local priest!)
CAPONE, I THINK YOU MADE A MISTAKE... by ninjatracksuit	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:42:07 AM
Example: "Berg appears quite calm, regretful, and utterly charming." I'm pretty sure you were referring to that putrescent waste of flesh O'Grady - not filmmaker Amy Berg. Normally a journalistic slip up we would let pass without even a pause, but I know I hate it when I get confused with convicted pedophiles...ahem...
The most sloppily written review I've read in a long... by deanamatronix	Nov 3rd, 2006 02:58:20 AM
time. Don't you people proof read before you post a review?
johnno? by Buzzsawlenny	Nov 3rd, 2006 09:27:00 AM
the next accepted sexual norm? c,mon u can't actually believe that..and if it's true and i'm just horribly naive..then bring on the zombie apocolypse because we don't deserve to make it oh and btw this is BUSH's fault EVERYTHING is bush's fault BUSH is the reason i stubbed my toe back in 85 whilst going to the bathroom one night..the far right has to come to terms with the fact that they(+ misinformed red state voters) elected pure and true evil...and i hear if you look very very close at pictures from the great chicago fire you can actually see W's monkey face licking his lips in the flames!
I always knew Haggard was gay. by Some Dude	Nov 3rd, 2006 10:11:02 AM
It took watching him for about 5 seconds in a documentary: mannerisms, inflection, sweaters... Why do so many of these fundamentalists seem to be closet cases?
"All Priests are Child Molesters" by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 10:26:56 AM
This is what you believe if you are a fucking moron. Most studies show that the number of priests accused of child molestation make up about 5% of all priests (in America). Which leaves us with the question of a Church cover-up. Again, no evidence that most Bishops or the Popes knew of cover-ups. All circumstancial. I should say that I haven't seen the documentary but I imagine that it refers to the "Crimen Sollicitatiois" document or whatever as "evidence" that the Pope wanted to protect child molesters. All the document said was that the diocese was supposed to keep investigations of priests secret. It's not like they prevented victims from contacting law enforcement officers. Anyways, Chauncey, etc., you are free to view the Church as a vast organization with its evil tentacles throughout the world; but also realize that people like me will continue to view you as a fucking moron. Cheers.
Capone, a few more things by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 10:42:38 AM
No one is denying or excusing the behavior of certain priests (perhaps bishops). I am merely denying the assertion that this behavior implicates the entire Church. I absolutely believe that there are certain priests who are pedophiles, and they should be defrocked. Unfortunately, in the past, that wasn't always the policy in certain diocese. But thanks to the media attention, the Church is taking a much harsher stand against these individuals. Rightfully so! But keep this in mind: Does this documentary base most of its assertions on the words of O'Grady? Because if so, you should probably take them with a grain of salt. Clearly he's a psychopath, with no conscience, no remorse, and psychopaths have the remarkable ability of deceit. I recommend "Without Conscience" by Robert Hare, if you would like to learn more about the psychopath.
Gotta love a religion that..... by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:00:37 AM
...prevents it's clergymen from getting married or having "intimate" relationships with anyone but god! If "ONLY" 5% of priests are child molesters, then worldwide there are "ONLY" just under 3000 child molesters collecting money for the Pope and cornholing young boys! The Catholic church....HOW CAN I SIGN UP ?!?!
All priests are not child molesters by homer40	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:04:01 AM
I am a Catholic, and have no personal experience with molesting priests. Nor do any of the Catholics I know. In fact, the number of reports against teachers, is approximatley 700 percent that of Priests. This does not excuse priests who molest, or those who allowed them to molest again. It just gives you and idea of the power of the teacher's lobby as opposed to the Catholic church's lobbying power. I would also note that I teach a ccd class in the summer, and I and every person who works at the church is required to attend a full day program dealing with this issue, including genuinely frightening interviews with both victims and perpetrators. The purpose of the class is to impress on us that molestation will not be tolerated, and to give us some insight on signs to look out for. One must remember that the church believes in forgiveness for sins, any sin, and its misguided actions relating to molestation are often based upon this belief. Make no mistake, if you molest kids, I don't care who you are, you should have your genitals burned, hacked off, and shoved down your throat. But that's just my opinion.
If the church's ped scandal had happened to a GameStop- by Some Dude	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:05:44 AM
-the entire industry would have been shut down. Not just the local franchise, not just the chain, but even competitors would have gone down. The governent would have stepped in immediately. Why does the church get away with this when any other industry would be destroyed? ---- And to the clown actually trying to defend the catholics... I'm guessing you are too young to remember the decades during which every claim made by a former victim would be greeted with charges of money-grubbing, lying and gay fantasy. Perhaps your 5% number is right, but that doesn't lessen the guilt on the parts of the other clergy who moved these scumbags around and the congregations who stupidly sided with the pedophiles against the victims.
Some Dude by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:16:37 AM
I really don't know why I involve myself in these "debates" with people who have IQs of small children, but maybe it's because I don't have class today, and I'm bored. Gamespot? WTF? OK, well more teachers are involved with child molestation than priests, so by your logic, the teachers unions should be shutdown. I mean, gosh, we shouldn't have anymore teachers!!! Look, I never said it lessened the guilt of anyone who molested a child, or protected child molesters. But DUDE, I will wholeheartedly deny your assertion that this is somehow representative of MOST Catholics. 5% IS a SMALL MINORITY. "Perhaps" my number is right? It IS right. Just do some research on the issue, you freaking imbeciles. You know how to use Google don't you? There are plenty of studies (check out the John Jay one, for example). And to the troll CHAUNCEY, go back to your hole. Look, I realize that there always going to be stupid people opining on issues they have read NOTHING about, but gosh darnit, I still get angry about it every time.
The problem with "only" 5%... by Some Dude	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:26:10 AM
...is that the industry known as the church claims it sells a path to good living and "heaven." Any percentage of its employess raping kids shows that the product doesn't work. Why do you rubes keep supporting it? For example idiots who support the 10 commandments in court-houses and schools... How many copies of the bible, assorted hymnals and 10 commandments were in close proximity to the thousands of priest/child couplings over the centuries? Did that have an ameliorating effect on anything? The product does not work as advertised.
TOTAL FUCKING DESTRUCTION by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:26:42 AM
If more people were aware?? What are you talking about? The priest abuse scandal has been all over the news for the last 5 years. Anyone who hasn't been living under a rock believes that priests are child molesters. Go here: http://www.bringyou.to/apologe tics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm This gives a summary of John Jay's study. You will not find a better study. Moreover, keep in mind that this is over about forty years. In other words, you little statistic nuts, that of all the priest serving in the past 40 years, about 5% has ACCUSATIONS. Put another way, it does not mean that at a given time, 5% of priests were out molesting children, but if we add up the number of priests who had been accused, and compare that to the number of priests in America, we get that number. Again, I'll say it again: NO EXCUSE FOR BEHAVIOR, JUST DON'T THE ENTIRE CHURCH ON THE ACTIONS OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.
OK, Some Dude by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:33:08 AM
You can change your argument, that's fine. So it makes it worse because these were supposedly godly men? I agree. Obviously by your terminology you are anti-religion ("selling" a path to heaven?), which is fine. But I'm not having this debate, because in my experience those people are just as "religious" in their beliefs, as any Bible-thumping fundamentalist. But, really, we could apply your same logic to any child molester. I mean, teachers are clearly in positions of power and have important influence on childrens' lives. Look, clearly you hold the normal anti-Catholic bigotry (oh I said it!) of wannabe intellectuals. That's fine, but I don't think you're any different than the redneck who thinks that Jews control banks.
It shows the product doesn't work?? by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:39:00 AM
What kind of logic is that? Did you go to school? Does anything work 100%? I mean, tylenol doesn't clear my headaches up every time, so maybe I should just stop taking tylenol? WTF? Get a clue, dude.
PROOFREADING... by El Scorcho	Nov 3rd, 2006 11:48:22 AM
Try it sometime. Holy fuck.
So how long do you figure... by WISEBLOOD	Nov 3rd, 2006 12:02:36 PM
Until everybody realizes that religion is fucking EVIL and serves only to destroy and divide and control populations. Whats always blown my mind is the argument that religion somehow gives people a moral center...a set of guidelines. WTF???? If you need religion, with all of its fairy tales and myths to give you a clear moral sense, YOU ARE FUCKED IN THE HEAD. There are plenty of atheists out there who are good, caring, humane, and moral who dont need a book based on fabricated writings (and Im talking about all of them: muslim, christian and judaic texts) to do the right thing.
Thank you for proving my point by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 12:27:57 PM
You people already have a vendetta against religion, so it doesn't matter how many priests are involved, or what statistics I point to. To you, it's just another example of "religion's evil." Your faith in the evil of religion is absolute. Look, I'm not going to get into this debate on "aintitcoolnews," but suffice to say, I do not think that religion is evil, or is it responsible for many or all of the world problems. As far as your observation that there are many atheists who are good. I don't doubt it. Indeed, I'm sure they are probably better than many with religious beliefs. (You see, I'm reasonable). But that does not show that religion is somehow antithetical to moral attitude, or that this proves that a belief in God/religion is not needed. You see, most atheist humanism is empty, I think, because it lacks a reason for its morality. Why be good to another person, if there is no REAL reason for doing so? What I would put forth is that any atheistic morality leads ultimately to nihilism. You might disagree, but I think you're deluded. There is nothing stopping the atheist, philosophically, from throwing his hands up, and saying, "fuck it, nothing has any meaning, I'm just going to go kill a bunch of people." Any other constructed meaning ("Oh, I think we should just be good to others") is contrived, and ultimately has religious foundations. So that's my quick philosophical argument against your "atheist humanism." As far as a practical look at the actions of religious people, you people always focus on the negatives, and never the positives. Even Sam Harris (you know, End of Faith tool), acknowledges that religion is responsible for much good in the world. Finally, do you really think removing religion from the world will make it a better place? If you do, you are naive, and a fool. So you don't think people will be discriminatory, murder one another, steal, do bad things, if we remove religion, or more so, a belief in God? C'mon! That's absurd. Explain to me why the 20th century, clearly the most influenced by atheistic idealogies and the cult of reason, was also the most violent (more people died during this century than during all other centuries COMBINED).
PhilipMarlowe by WISEBLOOD	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:02:10 PM
You raise very significant points. The main response I would have is that I have a disdain for religion based on nearly two decades of study. IF you want to get into a rational ecumenical debate, I think AICN is just as good a place as any, if only for the entertainment value. Heres where I disagree with what you said: As far as religion providing a reason to be "good" I think that one could remove religion and still see the need to be "good" because ultimately I believe in the basic goodness of humanity. I have a hard time finding any evil in the world that doesn't arise from either money or religion, although that is obviously a very subjective statement. The "reason" to be "good" as far as an atheist is concerned is because being "bad" is antithetical to those constructs of our evolution that have allowed us toraise to the level that we are now, constructs such as socializiation, shared agrarianism, etc. More to the point, its all about evolution: If you are "bad" you will be rejected by the larger populace and therefore stand less of a chance to transmit your genetic material, because you wont find anyone who wants to have your child. As for the next point of our current century being the one with the highest number of deaths, this follows from the numbers of people on the planet now, not that we have gotten any more or less vicious or warlike. If you "adjust for inflation" you will find the at the bloodiest endeavor in human history was the 1st through 6th crusades. RELIGIOUSLY BASED actions that resulted in the deaths of more people than can be accurately counted. There has been nothing that has even come CLOSE to the crusades in the last 3 centuries. That is to include the purging of the jews by the nazis, PolPot, and the rest. My argumetn hinges on the fact that ultimately religion gives people not only a moral code, which one could argue is worthwhile (though as a humanist I feel that if left to the social devices of evolution we will figure out as we go) but it also provides a necessary division, because all religion is essentially, in it's own eyes, "absolute"...that means that each religion feels that it is the ACTUAL truth and that wall others are wrong, and ultimately when you combine that precedent with the idea that religions classically have denigrated education and self determination for adherence to the religions "absolute truth" what you have is a recipe for fundamentalism and violence.
PhillipMarlow... by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:06:41 PM
..I'm sorry I ruffled your feathers. I think the issue is a little to close to you, for you to be objective about it. Why do you try to justify and defend the church that hides pedophelia, by saying thaqt 5% isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is? I'd love to be a mindless guilt-filled catholic, stuffing Vatican city's gold plated vaults with more money! So the churchcan buy good lawyers to protect them against outraged parents of molested pre-teen boys! Like I said before PhillipMarlowe & homer40, How do I sign up!!
If atheism leads to nihilism... by Some Dude	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:13:10 PM
..how come none of my friends have raped or murdered anyone? Why are there fewer atheists in jail than in the general population? It is time for the god-sellers to drop that specious argument. Besides which is more ethical: not killing because god says so or not killing because you've considered the multitude of consequences? People who rely on religious dogma to make it through the day without harming others are not moral people.
one to lighten up the mood... by the_man_from_Rio	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:27:12 PM
an altar boy asks the priest: "Please, can i pass the collection tray around tommorrow?" Priest:"Only if u suck it a little..." altar boy (hesitating):" but father..." Priest:"do u or don't u want to help god?" altar boy:"i do" priest:"so, commence the sucking" So jimmy's there, sucking the priest's cock, suddenly he stops, turns to him and says:"father... it tastes like shit!" priest:"that's because i promised johnny he could pass the tray around today"
Wiseblood and ZombieSolutions, NOT Chauncey by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:40:12 PM
Thank you for your intelligent responses. First, Wiseblood, you are right, the issue of evolutionary morality is ultimately a question that emerges in these debates. However, do you really want to argue that we should be moral because it is evolutionarily in our best interest to do so? I mean, I don't know about you, but the prospect that the only reason I should be moral is because of some more complicated idea of "survival of the fittest" is not very appealing to me. That said, I am one of those Catholics (i.e., most Catholics, like the Pope), who acknowledges the validity of evolutionary theory. Personally, I find its explanation of morality to be lacking (have you read the moral animal, by wright, i think? it seems to be something along the lines of what you are advocating). Now, one could make a somewhat dubious claim and say that well, if God worked through evolution (which is something along the lines many with religious beliefs and beliefs in evolution would claim--which I realize is not orthodox evolutionary theory), then that shows that morality has some sort of basis ULTIMATELY in God. But I'm not sure I want to claim that. But, ultimately your criticism is flawed because you left out an important detail: You say "If you are 'bad' you will be rejected by the larger populace and therefore stand less of a chance to transmit your genetic material, because you wont find anyone who wants to have your child." But don't you see that this is circular? It doesn't explain why it is "bad" in the first place. Ok, if I'm bad, I won't reproduce, and I won't reproduce, because I'm bad, but how is "bad" defined? In other words, there must be a much more complex theory to explain morality than merely evolution. Interestingly though, I would also say that some criminological theorists have explained that rape is an evolutionary rooted behavior. The point being that I don't think the actions of natural selection is something we want to base our moral system off of (at least I don't). In fact, I would probably agree with the assertion that the Christian ethic is counter evolution, simply because it raises up the weak, and those who are unable of taking care of themselves. But this leads to other problems. That's enough on that for now. As far as the 20th century deaths. I'm not sure that "inflation" completely explains it, because you are missing the fundamental point. It really isn't the number of deaths that is important (it's just used to illustrate a point--one death is too many), it's the fact that a century supposedly so well versed in Enlightenment teachings and reason and logic (which are good things, don't get me wrong), can still lead to destruction (I mean, contra Sam Harris, you really can't deny that Stalin's purges were not religiously motivated, which resulted in millions of deaths, and that Hitler's persecution of Jews had much more to do with other issues than religious ones: he also slaughtered homosexuals and gypsies, etc.). The point is that humans are humans, unfortunately, capable of great good, and great evil. Religion can be used to justify bad behavior, but I don't think it is the CAUSE of bad behavior, in its true sense. Also, a few other things, that I want to make clear. I think that religion has been responsible for terrible things, but also many, many WONDERFUL things. Caveat: a professor, a sociologist, once said the following to me: "Religion is an interesting part of the social fabric. Many people criticize it by measuring the wars it has caused, but this is somewhat unfair. There is no way of measuring the wars it has prevented." Cheers guys. No hard feelings, I would just warn you against characterizing all, or even a majority of religious people, based on the actions of fundamentalists.
Some Dude by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:44:06 PM
Last thing. The argument is not specious, philosophically. That's all I'm saying. It's another question whehter or not it has basis in reality. I think it does. Why aren't there more atheists in prison? Well, statistically, there simply aren't that many atheists. Also, I think the issue is much more complex. Maybe they respond more to fear of punishment, I don't know. If this is the only life I have, I don't want to risk spending the rest of my life in jail or worse, getting put to death, by killing another person. So atheism might no explicitly endorse bad behavior, but surely you would have a hard time saying that endorses good behavior. Whatever.
Also, ZombieSolutions by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:51:47 PM
I think you would have a hard time showing that "...the US legitimized nuking Japanese women and children under the aegis of GOD and country; they legitimized Vietnam and the Iraquagmire under these same terms -- GOD wants us to do this." So you think the US nuked Japan because they believed in God. I mean, really, that argument is just laughably fallacious. So if they didn't believe in God, they wouldn't have nuked Japan? C'mon. Nevermind the fact the Catholic Church has always been opposed to the use of atomic bombs...
Opposed to the use of Atom bombs.. by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 3rd, 2006 01:58:58 PM
...because most 3rd world undereducated shit holes are populated by Catholics! (or Muslims) You don't want to cut into the worldwide collection tray, that is feeding the Pope!?! Well Phillip...am I wrong? It seems that the majority of the talkback responses have been in agreement with what I said....back to you Phillip! :)
Are you functionally retarded? by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 02:02:01 PM
Just curious?
Organized religion by Chauncey Showzen	Nov 3rd, 2006 02:27:27 PM
I agree that an individuals "spirituality" is not in and of itself a bad thing. However I agree with anchorite that it is human corruption intertwined with organized "religion" that has always been a cancer to the ethically and morally principled of the world. Oh ya, and PhillipMarlowe is gay. ;)
Chauncey by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 02:44:35 PM
Nevermind the fact that it was religion that developed those ethical and moral principles. I mean, even most atheists and agnostics agree with that.
Atheists and Secular Humanists... by Johnno	Nov 3rd, 2006 03:55:53 PM
Have absolutely no grounds for pushing their 'let's do good because it's right views.' How do you define what's good, huh folks? Maybe in the next decade pedophlia will be a nice accepted norm now that we've got people trying to teach kindergarteners how to have sex safely (when they grow up of course, hahaha) and let them learn from pornographic material (Yes, these are real attempts being made folks, google them), and allowing pedophile Political parties (See Europe) and other gropus, many of them, some of them your beloved gay rights groups to bring us to terms with teh newly phrased 'intergenerational love'. All hail secular humanism, man makes the law and it goes with the times. And for further education, if atheism is factual, and I am some guy born into power and I can get away with raping pople and killing and whatever, why the fuck not? Is God going to stop me? Will I be around to enjoy the happy society I contribute to that could pretty much go extinct with the next world disaster or when the universe finally runs itself down from entropy over a couple billions of years time? You boys have no grounds for convincing some schmuck in the right place to follow your morals, hell you don't even need to agree with each other, so in any event why bother wasting your time telling religious people what to do if it's all relativistic? As for Religion leading to war, the only time this religion gets into war is when assholes spured by the religion of 'Nationalism' use theistic religion to prop themselves up! It's about land and power and wealth, and relgiion gets scapegoated. (Recommended reading: The perennial philosophy by Alduos Huxley). In other words, go look at every religious war, and you'll find that behind it's shenanigans it was about other 'religions' not for God by Nationalism, the Nation and the benefits that that false religion brings and humanity brings GOd in for the ride. As any real person in touch with God and the Divine Ground knows, money, your country, your pride and all those other falshoods we unwittingly worship and what does us in.
ZombieSolutions by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 3rd, 2006 03:57:24 PM
Well, I certainly agree with you in spirit. I too think that many of our leaders use God/Jesus as a phrase, without really taking the message to heart. Of course, if they did that, think of the revolution that would occur! The Gospel message is really revolutionary. I mean, blessed are the poor, the meek, the powerless! Help the poor! Treat others like you would like to be treated! You're absolutely right, many people preach, but not many live it. But I also think there is another important message: forgiveness. Too much hate in the world. Kudos to you for believing that you should do the right thing because it is the right thing. But WHY is it the right thing? It simply IS? I know, silly philosophical questions, but they are there, you can't get around them. I mean, like it or not, you are a product of Western culture, one that is deeply immersed in Judaic-Christian values. Can't escape 'em. I think we owe religion a lot more than you folks are willing to concede. That said, it's a damn shame when those abuse their power. Never fear, I get just as angry as you, I assure you. But let's not characterize everyone based on the actions of some, especially when that some is a minority. Look, complicated issue, interesting issue, one that no one is going to completely explicate on the Aintitcool Talkback. Best.
ZombieSolutions by Johnno	Nov 3rd, 2006 04:08:41 PM
"The only thing that matters is doing good, or the best that you can, for others around you; not for a celestial reward, or for fear of punishment, but because its the right thing to do." Take note and pass this on to any religious person you encounter: YOu cannot buy your way into heaven, it simply does not work out, this isn't some simple tit for tat rewards system. Take this analogy, a young boy goes up to his dad and asks him for money so he can buy his father a birthday present... The father does so and is happy with the gift the child brings him. However is this a result f the child's own resources? No it isn't. God gives you life and everything you have and are able to do. And God will be pleased with you if you use what is given to you to do good. YOU cannot however do good to expect a reward, because realize that if you want to bargain with God, who gives you your life and health and ability in the first place (Like the father who gives the child money), you will then end up in debt to God and it will be something that you can never repay. So you cannot buy your way into heaven with good deeds. Heaven is only offered to those who repent of their sins and recognize God as the only one who can forgive such indignities. It is also accepting your suffering and cross in life as penance for your sins without complaint and trusting in God to deliver the world form the suffering, evil inclinations and death it has fallen into. I don't expect you to buy the whole theology, but that's the way it is. Believing in it is only something you can decide, however you ought to take the trouble to understand it before going around criticising it.
sorry for spelling grammar etc by Johnno	Nov 3rd, 2006 04:13:02 PM
typing fast and I'm on the run, damnit taht last sentence should read "As any real person in touch with God and the Divine Ground knows, money, your country, your pride and all those other falshoods we unwittingly worship ARE what does us in." All that shit is far unimportant, but we're all suckers for it...
btw... by Buzzsawlenny	Nov 3rd, 2006 06:45:33 PM
i have it on good authority that there is no such place as heaven and if there was and karl rove got to go simply because he asked for forgiveness that would be bullshit
Buzzsawlenny by WISEBLOOD	Nov 3rd, 2006 06:47:59 PM
That, my man, is the most intelligent thing Ive seen in this talkback so far...
Morality has an evolutionary origin by Some Dude	Nov 3rd, 2006 08:45:03 PM
Morality existed long before religion.
Some Dude by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 4th, 2006 12:16:22 AM
I'm glad you were around to witness that. Tell me, what were the dinosaurs like? Did you enjoy throwing spears at woolly mammoths? BTW, it's one thing to ask for forgiveness, it's another thing to truly be sorry, and then receive forgivness...just food for thought...you fucking HEATHENS.
PhillipMarlowe: Why are you so angry? by Some Dude	Nov 4th, 2006 09:09:30 AM
Just read a few science books. You can catch up in no time.
What are you people talking about? by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 4th, 2006 09:20:40 AM
ZombieSolutions, suffice to say most believe in Some Dude called God, but I imagine that's your joke. He offers forgiveness, through the the death of His Son (you know that Jesus guy). But the point is, on our own, we our in state of sin (I mean just look at the world), and it is only through God's grace we can hope to be saved, and therefore follow his example, and forgive others. In other words, you and me, suck at forgiving people because we're sucky human beings, but with God's help, well we can, and make the world just a little bit better. Probably doesn't make sense to you HEATHENS. I'm hungover. Also, please explain to me how science explains the genesis of morality? I'd love to hear that one. You mean they have some empirical evidence on that one, or its just a bunch of theologians from the Church of Darwin speculating? Fun Fact for Aintitcool Secularists Did you know that the men who both discovered genes (Mendel) and posited the Big Bang theory (Lemaître), were both Catholic monks? Pretty cool, huh?! Yeah!
Zombiesolutions by Johnno	Nov 4th, 2006 12:16:18 PM
Judging from human History, I don't buy the belief that morals suddenly sprung up from human communities bent on survival. I believe life and the universe's coimplexity orignated form somewhere and that naturalistic explanations throughly fail to provide any explanation, in other words I don't buy your assumptions, fair enough that I can't concretely prove it from my point of view, but nothing ever can be. After looking through it myself, I feel the Biblical Creation is a far beter model for scientific and philosophical origins of the world and that Christianity is far better supported and uncontroverted by known history and that it's laws are revelation from God in stark contrast to what the surrounding nations practiced. "help, don't hurt" seems too vague, after all pedophiles really don't think they're hurting the children, and the idea is that with more introduction of sexual content and how-to for younger children at an early age, with time the children will eventually approach them, all concensual, all 'harm-free', so as you can see there are workarounds, and in such a time your discrimination against it could be considered bigotry! We discuss this in my psychology class and yes, there are real efforts being made to get this sickening stuff through. I can provide you with more info later if you wish. But already there are incidents where 10-14 year olds are raping girls on a school bus, and finally the Parliament in my country is doing something to raise the age of consent law but not without fierce opposition, a recent one coming from EGALE, a gay rights group trying to promote 'intergenerational love.' It's a fuckin scary world and all these things are trying to pass underhandedly without the public knowing, because of course, the public wouldn't stand for it. The trick is to slowly erode the public's sensibilities of it overtime, and pedophile groups seeing the success of gay rights groups are keen on picking up the same model of 'success.' The Church will not change despite the times and number of people in society. The moment the Church changes on it's morals is the moment it becomes irrelevant, after all if these morals were set bu God Himself, why would they change? If the Church goes against its mission, then it is indeed cracking at the seams from societal pressure and will ultimately fall to pieces. In which case it was false all along and wouldn't matter and ought to die out. The Catholic Church must never change with concern to dogmas and morals. It is for the future to see which one of us will be left standing.
Agnostics are the true philosophers... by 9SilentNine9	Nov 4th, 2006 12:33:11 PM
Every other religous denomintation has no basis of "knowing" anything. Faith (any denomination) is understandable, yet disuputable in regards to it's origons, but Aethiests seem to substitute faith with arrogance. They already claim to know the everything. What, may I ask, is the reason for living then?
To provide more Fun Facts for Aintitcool Secularists by Johnno	Nov 4th, 2006 12:49:33 PM
As PhillipMarlowe has... did you know that Copernicus, the founder of the heliocentric planetary model was likely a Catholic priest and dedicated his book 'On the Revolution of Heavenly Bodies' to Pope Paul III, and he was supported heavily by the Jesuits and other members of the clergy? Did you know the concept of the shape of the earth being round is first mentioned in the Book of Job, and that those who promoted a flat earth view were actually rejected by the Church Fathers and the myths about the Church being responsible for rejecting science were merely lies and distortions of history promoted by proponents of Darwinism who wanted to discredit the Bible? Did you know that the concept of natural selection did not come from Darwin, but is really by a creationist concept by Edward Blythe to explain rapid speciation?
I don't want to shoot you, Brandon... by 9SilentNine9	Nov 4th, 2006 01:18:35 PM
I simply don't understand the basis of Atheism. As far as I'm concerned... an Atheist, a Jew, a Muslim, and a Catholic can all walk into a bar together and have hilarity ensue. To clarify... to each their own.
God, the creationist fundies have come to AICN... by ArkadyRenko	Nov 4th, 2006 01:49:53 PM
... to proselytize. Good lord, will there never be an end to it?
ZombieSolutions by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 4th, 2006 04:28:59 PM
Intelligent points, except for "more often than not". I love when secularists (I don't like the term either, but I don't know what else to call you) say that, because they act as if they are basing that statement off some sort of quanitative data. I mean, yea, there were the Crusades, the Inquisition, superstition. OK, we get it, but what formula did you apply to these historical events that shows religion is more bad than good? Now, really, I think Johnno pointed to this out earlier, it would be fairly easy to show that the majority of wars have had nothing to do with religion, and can be traced to other reasons like land, resources, etc. But look, I firmly believe that you are not going to change your mind because you already follow the belief as firmly as I follow my Church. Go figure. As far as the more interesting points you make concerning Catholic doctrine and morality: although the two are related, they are not the same thing. Surely you don't think re-defining the notion of purgatory is a statement of morality? But that said, no one is disagreeing with the fact that the Church develops doctrine and dogma that is not implicit in the Bible, etc. Indeed, that is one of the main separations between it and other Christian churches: it relies on tradition. We Catholics believe that the Pope is the successor to Peter, Christ's disciple, whom he gave the role of leader of the Christian Church. In this sense, he became an interpreter of Scripture, etc... Thus, there are many incidents throughout history where a belief can change or evolve, but there are still fundamental beliefs which remain unchanging... But as far as morality goes: Catholic theology owes much to St. Thomas Aquinas (and ultimately Aristotle), in its belief of natural laws. In other words, there are "rules" in the world that define human nature, how to live, etc., that we DISCOVER, but do not "MAKE UP." Or, we derive them from our Nature, but that does not make them somehow relative; quite the opposite, they apply to everyone because they are universal. It's more complicated than that, but I hope it explains a little. I mean, ZombieSolutions, even you have to admit that "murder" is found in pretty much all moral codes. Why is that? I mean, we are left with either an evolutionary explanation or a Godly one. You chose the first, I chose to the second. A few other things, I regret that I haven't responded to your post systematically at this point: As far as the belief being "irrelevant." Well I don't believe that personally, for reasons I've explained in earlier posts, because I think morality that has no God is ultimately shallow, and I don't like the idea of acting moral because it is in "evolutionary in my best interest to do so." As far as other religions: I admit that I have always been interested in Buddhism, but suffice to say, although I am a conservative Catholic, I think there is much to be learned from other religions. This is indeed the teachings of Vatican II. Personally, the Trappist monk Thomas Merton, who engaged in interfaith dialogue, is a big hero of mine. The point is, I really don't know who "gets to heaven" or not, or for what reasons. I think faith is important, but remember I'm Catholic, so it must be faith WITH GOOD WORKS. Cheers.
creationism by Buzzsawlenny	Nov 4th, 2006 06:08:48 PM
or as i like to call it .. science for dummies.. jesus had a chariot that was pulled by six t-rexes in the immortal words of ralph wiggum.."now lisa is the ralph!"
ZombieSolutions by PhillipMarlowe	Nov 4th, 2006 09:25:24 PM
Of course there is no ill will! This is the best discussion I've ever had with a person on a messageboard thingy! I just want to clarify a few things: Do you reall think the Church is violently anti-homosexual? I mean, yes, it is opposed to gay marriage, and the homosexual lifestyle, but that's OK isn't it? I mean, if you view something as wrong, what's wrong with taking a stand against it (as long as there isn't any sort of persecution of the other). I mean, don't get me wrong, I think tolerance is a good thing. But just because I tolerate you doesn't mean I endorse your lifestyle, accept it, and want to make it my own. I don't think most Catholics have any intention of going out and killing a bunch of homosexuals, do you? I mean, they might oppose gay marriage, but so what, aren't they entitled to that? Moreover, the whole reason I got into this discussion was to try and show that the priest "rape" scandal doesn't reflect every priest, and the hierarchy of the Church!! Yes, certain priests did evil things, but please don't think that the Church is a "deranged institution." ZombieSolutions, if you take one thing away from this conversation, let it please be that. Ultimately we have philosophical differences, but I hope you to don't succumb to same prejudices against the Church that you decry against other groups of people. A few things: Yes, we have evidence for evolution, but let's be careful not to fall into scientism, where we think science has an answer to everything. I think this is dangerous. Clearly science has a hard time explaining a lot of things (it can't explain the ultimate origin of the universe for example, before the Big Bang, other than it seems to be created ex nihilo...evidence for God?). I would also hope that you realize that a belief in NO God is just as much of a belief that there IS a God. An agnostic is in a slightly better position on this issue, as an earlier poster pointed out. One thing I find amusing: "Purgatory doesn't exist. Neither does heaven or hell..." Such a dogmatic statement! I mean, admit it, you don't KNOW if they don't exist...they could right? Finally, the most important part of our discussion, morality: We both agree that faith reinforces these good works (or at least should), but I think we disagree on two important points. One: theoretically, I simply don't think you have any justification for acting the way you do if you do not believe in God. More power to you for doing so, but why? Because it is in your best interest to do so? Yikes! This is why it is shallow: I mean you aren't doing it because it is "right," (which goes back to my point about natural laws...laws need a law-giver, right?), or because God has made the world this way. You are doing it because you simply choose to. You still must face the question, ultimately, why are you acting this way, if you don't really HAVE to? Two: Related to the previous, out of this Faith, comes Good Works, that is the Catholic position. It is not just some silly belief, but an important step in giving a person the impetus for living a good lifestyle. In other words, it is just as much the cause of goodness, as it is the support. It's not just decoration!! Finally, let me respond to one more point: You say, "but we have proof of the former (the evolutionary process; the development of morality over time) through observation, study, and historical record, while the notion of God is soley based on belief or faith." Indeed we do, but I already explained that I think evolution does a shoddy job of explaining morality (I mean do you think survival of the fittest is a good morality?) I realize that some have attempted to explain altruism has evolutionarily advantageous, but I think this is just falls into an infinite regress: I could just say that every action I make is evolutionary advantageous. And let's not completely downplay the "evidence" for God. Yes, I might not be able to "prove" God to you (the proofs are not likely to convert anyone), but surely you have to grant that there is other "evidence." I mean, many religious state that they have had encounters with God (and why must one assume that they are simply crazy, or deluded? because YOU haven't experienced the same thing? I've never been in love with a girl before, but I'm pretty sure other people have). And more so, I think religion has done much good (you disagree, somewhat), which I think may be evidence for a God acting in each of our lives! I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but thank you for this thought-provoking conversation. Best wishes to you! And God bless!! I'll give you the last word, if you want it!
This is one of the best talkbacks ever! by Bob Cryptonight	Nov 5th, 2006 01:56:54 AM
Wow, some of you guys really really like to TYPE!

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