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AICN COMICS! ULTIMATES 2! GREEN LANTERN! SLEEPER! HULK! DRACULA VS. KING ARTHUR! AND MORE!!!

Second by powerfuljedi	Jun 1st, 2005 02:55:24 AM

So, uh... how was that Batman: Dark Detective book? by Robert_G_Durant	Jun 1st, 2005 03:08:23 AM
I was kinda hoping that the review would review it.
fifth by TheJoker	Jun 1st, 2005 03:20:51 AM

Craptacular 2000 by P0PB0T	Jun 1st, 2005 04:13:57 AM
I was intrigued by the Drac v. Arthur idea until my suspension of disbelief had to be popped by the time travelling. Is it really necessary? Why not just tamper with timelines all together, and just get to some badass fightin'. For some reason, the mention of time travel in this context reminds me of bloody tampons. And what a Context it is! You can make fantasy grounded in realism, without cheap, inane bamboozlin. Strikes me similar to the stupid retarded writing Lucas no doubt thought clever for how Anakin turns to the Sith! BAH. Yes, that movie boils down to about how good even Frankenstein v. Robin Hood adapted by first graders would be.
10th Anniversary of the Clone Saga! by RenoNevada2000	Jun 1st, 2005 06:36:45 AM
I've heard rumblings that we'll probably see a ESSENTIAL CLONE SAGA book before the winter and maybe something else that ties in.
Schleppy and Batman by speed	Jun 1st, 2005 07:51:17 AM
just want to know if youse are going to let poor little Schleppy out of his cage to review Batman begins?
totally late and unrelated post (but I am bored so fug it): by Shigeru	Jun 1st, 2005 08:17:36 AM
I literally had a nightmare about that demon baby in Daredevil. The end.
Where the hell is Shleppy??? by jloder24	Jun 1st, 2005 09:23:19 AM
A chain-smoking, alcoholic monkey leads a bunch of DC magical b-sides against the Spectre and a female Loki, and Shleppy is nowhere to be seen??? WTF??? "Marble". Funny name for Marvel. Ha. We get it. Enough already.
Green Lantern #1 by bizarromark	Jun 1st, 2005 09:25:35 AM
A somewhat underwhelming debut following the crash-bang excitement of the "Rebirth" mini-series. Nice to see Hal phasing back into life as a non-Ultimate Traitor of the GL Corps and Spirit of God's Vengeance. However, it seems a little disjointed to see Hal just sitting around having coffee in the pilot's lounge after going through all of that...but part of that comes from Geoff Johns' desire to get right into the "Top Gun" stuff he's obviously done his homework researching. While Johns risks overdoing the inside-baseball jet pilot stuff, at the same time I really appreciate seeing military-types portrayed as REAL PEOPLE for a change, and not the sinister and/or psychotic caricatures that show up with depressing regularity in comic books. Yeah, Johns hints at (yet another) sinister conspiracy the military is taking part in...but the pilot friends of Hal we've seen so far seem to resemble actual human beings. Bottom line: It's great to have Hal Jordan back as Green Lantern. Let's hope the other FOUR human Green Lanterns hanging around Earth find somewhere else to go....since Hal's got sector 2814 MORE than covered on his own.
Days of Vengeance #2 by bizarromark	Jun 1st, 2005 09:31:35 AM
After a somewhat promising start, this series falls flat on its face with its second issue. Not only is the overall premise tragically weak (Spectre believing getting rid of "magic" will rid the universe of evil), but we now find that the Spectre comes to this naive conclusion via seduction through the Jean Loring "Hot Punk-Rock Chick Eclipso". So....even though the Spectre is (allegedly) the incarnate Wrath of God (oh...excuse me...it's now the "Wrath of the Universe")....he can't resist Jean Eclipso's feminine wiles! Who knew the Spectre was such a horn-dog?____ Next came a sub-plot with some surviving C-list mystics putting together a "plan" to take down the Spectre (yeah....right) and a clumsily-staged final page leading to.....what? Pretty bland stuff for a series that should be wall-to-wall "Finale of 'Raiders of the Lost Arc'-style fireworks. But...instead...we get low-wattage mystics, Spectre-seduction and.....Detective Chimp(!)? I'm officially bailing on this series.
Judd Winnick is a Crappy Hack by Squashua	Jun 1st, 2005 09:51:56 AM
Judd Winnick and whomever writes Day of Vengeance: You both suck. I picked up Flash #222. There are about 378 different characters and I know who EACH AND EVERY ONE that is central to that story arc are. I could have been a total newbie to the comic, but I could pick it up and read it. I picked up last week's Outsiders, the issue where Indigo ends up being Brainiac 8. Now, I've never, EVER read an issue of Outsiders, and let me tell you, I never will. Or at least till Judd leaves the book. There are at least 16 characters in that book and only TWO of them are named in that issue; "Indigo" (which is not actually her name) and that Metamorpho clone, "Shit" or something. A new reader could NOT in any way have picked up that issue and read it to understand it. Flash #222? There are 18 different situations and each one was explained within the context of that ONE BOOK. Yeah, there was a lot ogiing on, and it would help to have read the preceding issues, but I DID NOT HAVE TO. I didn't have to know who anyone was. Flash #222 was excellent. Outsiders? Crap. I am lucky I know who Starfire is, but her actual presence isn't even KNOWN until halfway into the book when it's a complete surprise that she's even there. I sure can blame a crappy artist for not drawing her into a background, but that's also SLOPPY CRAP HACK WRITING. You SUCK, Judd Winnick. I am never purposefully purchasing anything that you write ever again.
Unapologetic THOR fan! by bizarromark	Jun 1st, 2005 09:58:09 AM
After a somewhat promising start, this series falls flat on its face with its second issue. Not only is the overall premise tragically weak (Spectre believing getting rid of "magic" will rid the universe of evil), but we now find that the Spectre comes to this naive conclusion via seduction through the Jean Loring "Hot Punk-Rock Chick Eclipso". So....even though the Spectre is (allegedly) the incarnate Wrath of God (oh...excuse me...it's now the "Wrath of the Universe")....he can't resist Jean Eclipso's feminine wiles! Who knew the Spectre was such a horn-dog?____ Next came a sub-plot with some surviving C-list mystics putting together a "plan" to take down the Spectre (yeah....right) and a clumsily-staged final page leading to.....what? Pretty bland stuff for a series that should be wall-to-wall "Finale of 'Raiders of the Lost Arc'-style fireworks. I've noticed a new "meme" seeping into the collective group-think of comics fandom: "Thor Sucks". In this age of angsty navel-gazing and too-cool-for-the-room dialogue, I suppose the mythic bombast and Shakespearian speech patterns of classic THOR comics are no longer the books you want to get caught reading. Buzz asked "Why Thor?" Why the Norse pantheon of gods? It's precisely the Norse pantheon's "B-list" status (compared to the more familiar Greek/Roman pantheons) that allowed Larry, Stan and Jack to cross-breed these tales with their own brand of wonky space-age grandeur without feeling bound to the more faithful adaptations Greek mythology and its scholars always seem to demand. Plus, unknown to even Stan and Jack, Thor's Scandinavian "long-hair" look would prefectly coincide with the long-hair chic of the later 60's, inadvertantly creating (in a sense) a "Super-Hippie". From the "trippy" cosmic concepts to Thor's own flower-child musings, "THOR" wonderfully captured the crazy zeitgeist of the times. I agree with Buzz that Kirby's artwork, especially here in THOR, is some of the best stuff the 20th Century gave us....but Stan Lee's narration and dialogue are also a thing to behold. Yeah...the Shakespearian dialogue is a bizarre, foreign thing to modern sensibilities...but (at least to me) it all somehow worked. The whole crazy mix of operatic drama, space-gods, "thee's", "thou's", Mighty Vows, whirling storms and Odin's inexaustible wardrobe all came together to form comics' most powerful and enduring "epic". THOR "sucks"? I say thee NAY!!!!
Well.....THAT was weird! by bizarromark	Jun 1st, 2005 10:03:56 AM
Sorry for the confusion, guys. Looks like my "Days of Vengeance" blatherings somehow got stuck into my THOR musings. Here's the THOR stuff without the confusing intro:_____________I've noticed a new "meme" seeping into the collective group-think of comics fandom: "Thor Sucks". In this age of angsty navel-gazing and too-cool-for-the-room dialogue, I suppose the mythic bombast and Shakespearian speech patterns of classic THOR comics are no longer the books you want to get caught reading. Buzz asked "Why Thor?" Why the Norse pantheon of gods? It's precisely the Norse pantheon's "B-list" status (compared to the more familiar Greek/Roman pantheons) that allowed Larry, Stan and Jack to cross-breed these tales with their own brand of wonky space-age grandeur without feeling bound to the more faithful adaptations Greek mythology and its scholars always seem to demand. Plus, unknown to even Stan and Jack, Thor's Scandinavian "long-hair" look would prefectly coincide with the long-hair chic of the later 60's, inadvertantly creating (in a sense) a "Super-Hippie". From the "trippy" cosmic concepts to Thor's own flower-child musings, "THOR" wonderfully captured the crazy zeitgeist of the times. I agree with Buzz that Kirby's artwork, especially here in THOR, is some of the best stuff the 20th Century gave us....but Stan Lee's narration and dialogue are also a thing to behold. Yeah...the Shakespearian dialogue is a bizarre, foreign thing to modern sensibilities...but (at least to me) it all somehow worked. The whole crazy mix of operatic drama, space-gods, "thee's", "thou's", Mighty Vows, whirling storms and Odin's inexaustible wardrobe all came together to form comics' most powerful and enduring "epic". THOR "sucks"? I say thee NAY!!!!
The first sentence of the "Ultimates 2" review was great. by rev_skarekroe	Jun 1st, 2005 10:20:21 AM
And that's about all I've got to say about this week's set of reviews. But maybe I'll come back if somebody belittles the French or something and sets off some verbal fireworks.
The Ultimates line is fast becoming redundant by cookylamoo	Jun 1st, 2005 11:19:23 AM
with the mainstream Marvel books themselves becoming more and more ultimatized. No wonder interest in these books seems to be flagging. What was once a big departure is now just muddying up the waters. Bizzaromark is dead on target with both GL and DOV. Buzz, interesting comment about why critics talk about themselves, but best to keep it short in any case. Revealing your prejudice is one thing, giving us your life story....??? I think the Norse gods were a better choice than the Greek or Roman Gods for one big reason. They generally didn't go around knocking up mortal women and then turning them into animals and trees as spiteful pranks. If Stan and Jack had gone with Zeus instead of Thor, he would have knocked up Jane Foster and then turned her into a fire hydrant.
Hal Jordan should not be back. by Darksider	Jun 1st, 2005 12:05:47 PM
Why bother reading comics anymore when no one really dies and nothing, including costumes, every change? I was reading GL before Jordan went renegade and it was boring. The sales at the time support this. I was one of the only guys at the store reading DC for that matter. The GL revamp was a good story and was the most realistic of the Supes, Bats, GL, and Wonder Woman revamps that DC tried to do in the 90's. None of it lasted. Surprise. The story was great, it was logical, plus we got rid of all the other GL's that weren't being utilized and a single GL became something to behold again. Besides, Jordan is a very dated character and Rayner was much deeper and had to suffer a lot to stay GL. If Jordan was to come back, this story was not the one to do it with. I mean, Johns is just like, everything and everybody is back, unexplained, and oh yeah that Parallax guy was somebody else and the Guardians who have the knowledge to remake the universe seemed to forget about it and how the rings actually work. Oh, and there's like four GL's in sector 2814 now. Outstanding. Sorry for the rant.
Thor by JonQuixote	Jun 1st, 2005 12:46:13 PM
I also like Thor, but couldn't really appreciate him until I hit my 20's. I think it was the HEROES RETURN stuff that inspired me to go back and check out the early 80's stuff that I kind of glossed over & ignored (odd, because in addition to comics I was a huge mythology buff in my pre-teens). And. I. LOVED. It. Marvel's Thor is where their most imaginative stuff seems to hide - I love the juxtaposition of seeing, for example, Thor fight a medieval dragon in a construction site before getting whipped off to a SHIELD helicarrier, flying around on a mechanical horse, and asked to go off into outerspace to check out a mysterious ufo. Science Fiction and Fantasy are not mutually exclusive concepts and THOR comics tend to get that through in spades.
Hal Jordan should have died forever, Ultimate Defenders great, T by tombseye	Jun 1st, 2005 12:54:08 PM
I gotta say that I was dismayed to see Hal Jordan killed off or removed as GL, but I got used to it and I kind of thought of Kyle Rayner as useless and was expecting John Stewart to become the GL mainstay. He works well on tv AND it would have been an interesting love triangle given the current situation with Hawkgirl and Hawkman. So much potential. Hal Jordan, because of his history, overshadows all the other GLs. As for Thor, well I thought that Walt Simonson made one of the more interesting Thors by making him more interconnected to the modern world and Millar's Ultimate Thor is great imo as well. Thor doesn't suck. The people who have usually written have sucked. The gods/demigods theme can work, but the aloof deity thing is dated. The Ultimates is still awesome too. The new Defenders heh heh. Well they only work on certain levels anyway. JM Demattis did an interesting take on the Defenders back in the 80s by going for an X-Men type thing where they dealt with more bizarre and strange threats and were themselves composed of outcasts of sorts from the Son of Satan to the Gargoyle to the Beast and Valkyrie. I thought it worked quite well personally. This new Millar take though is cool with me too though.
The problem with Thor is that he's the most boring character by superninja	Jun 1st, 2005 01:10:36 PM
Wonder Woman has this problem as well. Thor's best when playing off of the other characters and he's usually depicted as sort of a one-note blockhead (been played effectively in the past with Loki taunting him for being such a moron). But I feel one of the strengths of the character is that he really knows he's not as gifted as the others in many ways, he's just stubborn and has a bad temperment and a great amount of responsibility. I've always enjoyed the large supporting cast of heroes and villians in Thor and obviously Simonson did great work making Thor a more likeable guy.
Downloadable Cover Art by Trevor Goodchild	Jun 1st, 2005 01:45:35 PM
How come you can't click enlarge all the cover thumbnails? Anyone know where's a good place to drag off some good comic art? Not for naughty reasons. Purely for reference.
Superninja: What sayeth thee? by bizarromark	Jun 1st, 2005 03:37:57 PM
Sorry. Couldn't resist. Here's Superninja's take: "Thor's best when playing off of the other characters and he's usually depicted as sort of a one-note blockhead (been played effectively in the past with Loki taunting him for being such a moron)."_______Hmmm.....I' ll have to disagree with you there. While it's true that many writers have depicted Thor as a "one-note blockhead", but I can confidently say that the majority of Thor's glory days, namely his Silver and Bronze Age runs, make the guy look pretty good. I'll grant you that Thor is usually the "Too Good To Be True" noble foil to the nuttiness around him...as you acknowledged in the quote above, but Thor (particularly under Stan Lee's watch) was also quite a deep-thinking kind of guy, often ruminating about his dual loyaties to Asgard and his dysfunctional-yet-beloved Midgard (Earth)....or the boudaries of tradition and family loyalty...or simply taking the time to help out some poor Earth schmuck. Plus, in the romance department, I don't think any other superhero ever devoted as much panel-time to "relationship talk" than our fair-haired thunder god...in fact, I'd go so far as to say Thor had "....lovin' on his mind." (insert Barry White vocal here). Certainly not "blockhead" material in my book. True, the modern trend in depicting moral "straight arrows" like Thor and Superman is to portray them as genial, corn-fed naifs who don't possess the stark, hard-edged cunning of the Wolverine & Batman crowd. I guess if that's the current criteria for "non blockhead status", then I suppose Thor is, indeed, a bit of a "one-note blockhead"......but you might want to take a look at some of those old stories just to make sure. You may be surprised by the passionate, headstrong, cunning, occasionally ruthless and sometimes even funny THOR you find there.
gl by suck_it	Jun 1st, 2005 04:12:58 PM
Kyle Raynre is the defintive GL. he was teh one to fight off the yellow guy in Rebrith wiht the ring. And also, beign abetter pilot than hal is a must, too. hal jordanm turned into that grim reaper guy and was evil. Rayner was alkways shining bright in the Corp. EVen more than Ganther.
Bizarromark by superninja	Jun 1st, 2005 05:07:01 PM
The Stan/Kirby Thor is an internal monologuer in a long line of internal monologuing heroes from Silver Surfer to oh, just about any character from that period. They all have that "deep thinking" quality and get moody over women. But most of my Thor knowledge comes from his appearences in the Avengers and the DeFalco/Frenz and Simonson runs. I am not equating Thor with a schmuck, but rather if you read the rest of my post above, that he has more depth than that and Thor is another one of Lee's "with great power comes great responsibility" creations, although a little less average joe than Spider-Man. Thor may even be one of the few heroes that gets disciplined by his parent. I actually enjoyed the teen Thor series that came out recently because it didn't portray him as a one-note character although I would be reluctant to recommend it because it was a little plot-lite.**** Characters like Thor, Wonder Woman and Superman could be fairly complex, but today's writers aren't so interested in the morals question as they are in nihilistic navel gazing.
I liked ULTIMATES #6 too by Dave_F	Jun 1st, 2005 06:30:35 PM
Millar's style can be endlessly annoying to me in its cynicism, but when I can occasionally find myself caught up in his oeuvre, he's a pretty compelling writer. I think Millar's best characters in ULTIMATES are Pym and Banner, two "born to lose" types actually suited to his approach. Good readin'. I still wouldn't care if THE ULTIMATES disappeared tomorrow, but a good issue nonetheless.
About that demon baby in DAREDEVIL... by Dave_F	Jun 1st, 2005 06:35:25 PM
Anyone else get a TOTAL RECALL "Kuato" vibe off of it? Kuato lives! **** As for the issues themselves, I'm bored to tears as we reach the third installment of "The Daredevil Support Group", but it's a readable kind of boredom. Usually is with Bendis.
Always wantd to do this.... by HunterDan	Jun 1st, 2005 07:34:49 PM
FIRST!!! Woo Yay
Keith Flint? by Homer Sexual	Jun 1st, 2005 07:44:30 PM
Admit it, you have had three previous secret identities here, haven't you? Oh, I agree that Thor has been great and has been terrible. One thing, he depends more on art than other characters. For example, Simonson writing and drawing was outstanding, Simonson writing and Sal Buscema drawing, I dropped the book. I enjoyed the latest incarnation of Thor, too, except for M.A.O.'s final, and awful, storyline.
A drug that makes you really paranoid and realize your worst fea by sideshowbob	Jun 1st, 2005 07:52:12 PM
I call that "marijuana".
I dislike AMS and Supreme Power, and I love the FF, and was brac by sideshowbob	Jun 1st, 2005 07:57:01 PM
Yet I really enjoyed JMS's first FF issue. What do you know? Sometimes an open mind does pay off.
Hey, I'll talk about DARK DETECTIVE #2 by Village Idiot	Jun 1st, 2005 08:32:13 PM
It was disappointing. I actually enjoyed the first issue of this series, riding my own sentimentalism, depite a few reservations. But this time around, the reservations seemed to overpower my goodwill. (A man can only take so much.)_____Biggest problem: Marshall Rogers and Terry Austin's art. In a word, the art looks amatuerish. It's simply not Bronze Age standards, which is the level where it should be for a project whose cachet is a reputation for being classic. It's like going to a BTO concert, and all they play is stuff off their new album. Nor do I think you can fairly attribute the art to "style," unless the style you're referring to is from "early Jr. High notebook." Again, it looks amatuerish. And can someone tell me what the heck was going on with Silver St. Cloud's purple tiger-print stretchpants? ____The dialogue had a few problems as well, including a "Let me show you my etchings" reference which hasn't been current since about 1947. But the story went off the rails writing-wise when Batman had a Scarecrow induced freak out while showing Silver St. Cloud the Batcave. You'd think Batman has been fearamone gassed so many times, he'd be able to ride it out like an acid trip; but no, instead he actually engaged in some pretty irrational behavior, even by bad trip standards. Luckily, it wasn't too tramatic for either of them; he was able to turn on the Batcave's AC, clear the room of the gas, then get shag Silver on the floor of the Batcave._____But despite the weird writing and the art, I still want to like this series, and I'm feeling kind of guilty for this snarky little post. As penance, I'll probably let my wistfulness talk me into buying the next issue. And this concludes my contribution to Classic @$$holes Old Home Week at AICN comics.
Hey Buzz, if you like the "Loser Super-hero' genre by BrashHulk	Jun 1st, 2005 08:41:31 PM

Hey Buzz, if you like the "Loser Super-hero" genre by BrashHulk	Jun 1st, 2005 08:43:00 PM
You should pick up the movie "The Specials" and allow the hilarity to ensue. Good stuff, bebe.
bizarro, ninja, homer regarding Thor by tombseye	Jun 1st, 2005 09:09:32 PM
See now Thor was actually quite clever in that he would outsmart Loki even though it was always implied that he had the brawn and Loki had the brains. Loki would hatch some plot and Thor would counter it (somewhat like Supes and Mxylplkxs, however you spell that damn name). Simonson did a great take by getting rid of the Donald Blake "persona" and had Thor just pose as a human in his secret identity while defending the earth from mostly his fellow mythological figures from Asgard. That worked quite well. Now Millar has taken that one step further with Thor being a bit nuts and he's directly involved in the anti-war and anti-globalization crowd who seek social justice etc. That has worked to great effect and he's now more godlike in some ways as well. Hell, when you think about Thor is not unlike Capt. Marvel (Shazam) in that he's a larger than life figure with a mythological background etc. He requires a scifi take and more of a reason to want to come to earth than simply, "I was sent here b/c I'm an arrogant prick and my Dad thought I'd grow out of it if I was made to live like a human weakling." Actually, Odin should have tried that with Loki, but hey he's got his favorites.
Millar's cynicism has a point to it though by tombseye	Jun 1st, 2005 09:14:46 PM
He writes the characters as if they are just that more in the real world and this is a trend that has been going on since Watchmen obviously. Aside from Fables, Y the Last Man, and for some reason Hawkman, the Ultimates is all I can read of late. Replace the Marvel Uni with the more adult versions. It's not as if the PG13 versions matter anymore since the kids can't afford comics anyway. And honestly, as someone who is always political, I like what Millar and Vaugh do by injecting the political stuff in. Too many people react like vampires to garlic when it comes to politics and thus our current leadership in the White House and Tom Delay etc.
Question: Whatever happened to Kaare Andrews? by Ribbons	Jun 1st, 2005 09:39:30 PM
I loved that guy's "Hulk" covers, especially the "Where the Wild Things Are" one, even though they ultimately had nothing to do with the comic.
Kaare Andrews by sideshowbob	Jun 1st, 2005 10:00:21 PM
He's doing the last issue of Millar's Wolverine run. Maybe not last, but some issue that JRJr isn't doing. He was last seen in the truly excellent Spidey/Doc Ock Year One trade that came out a month back. I remember one of the @$$holes said they'd review it, but I guess they were booked. Kind of a shame, but not really.
dark detective by Homer Sexual	Jun 2nd, 2005 01:48:04 AM
I agree that this englehart/rogers pairing really pales in comparison to the original run. I am sad to be one of the "oldies" lamenting the inferior present to the superior past, but this incarnation of the only time I ever really liked batman is lame. I am not feeling anything, and this is especially disappointing considering Marshall Rogers. And on a side note, is this whole Crisis thing making Bats the uber-asshole of DC or what?
Nice call Tombseye by kisskissbangbang	Jun 2nd, 2005 02:08:03 AM
It had never occurred to me that Loki & Mxyzptlk were comparable; but now that you pointed it out, it's obvious that they're both classic trickster characters to their respective foils. And if you throw in the Prankster, the Toyman & Ambush Bug, then Supes has 4 different tricksters; perhaps to be expected with a character so powerful that it's hard to be more than an irritant to him.
Where the hell is DOC FRANKENSTEIN??? by Mr. Anderson	Jun 2nd, 2005 02:33:46 AM
The first two issues came out several months ago, and it quickly became one of my favorite books, even though I only had two issues to judge it by. Any clue as to when issue #3 will ship?
I am as one with Bizarromark this week. by Dave_F	Jun 2nd, 2005 02:44:28 AM
GREEN LANTERN #1 was just "eh", DAY OF VENGEANCE #2 was a letdown, and Thor is one of the coolest oddballs Stan 'n' Jack ever thought up. Now if Bizarromark would just be so good as to make a post to the tune of SLEEPER being repetitive and predictable for its second season, I could just take a nap and leave the posting to others. Since he won't, though, I must elaborate...on that and more! ****** Re: GREEN LANTERN - So if I understand things rightly, Kyle's the one off in space now and Hal's essentially sticking around as Earth's Green Lantern. Me, I'd reverse that. I don't think the test-pilot angle is wholly outdated, but exploring space sure sounds more exciting to me. I see Hal as a Captain Kirk-esque spacefarer bringing gunboat diplomacy to intergalactic problems and going toe-to-toe with space cruisers in battles worthy to challenge STAR WARS. In other words, going the route of the '80s-era Silver Surfer when Engelhart was writing it. Maybe it's just me, but Earth seems too small a precinct for a space cop to patrol. ******* Re: DAY OF VENGEANCE - Actually, I think Bizarromark precisely nailed my feeling on this one ('cept I think Detective Chimp is sorta cool). I guess this means the only DC COUNTDOWN spin-off I'm actually enjoying is VILLAINS UNITED, and even that one's a bit iffy. ***** Re: THOR - Hey, Bizarromark, I've only read a sampling of classic Lee/Kirby THOR issues, but...did their Thor really exhibit "flower-child musings"? Say it ain't so! I thought that was strictly Silver Surfer territory! As for the artwork - I think it was Bruce Timm or John Kricfalusi (one of those animator guys) who said they loved Kirby's pencils on Thor but felt they were ruined by the feathered inking over 'em. I'm blanking on the inker's name - was it Vince Colletta? Anyway, the criticism stuck with me and always registers when I look at old THOR issues. There's a sense that the art is a bit at odds with itself, Kirby's power being slightly restrained by the more illustrative hatching of the inker. **** One other thing: Buzz wrote that all fans have some big-name superhero they don't like, and while I acknowledge I'm probably a total minority on this, I can honestly say that I never really disliked any of Marvel or DC's big names - even as a kid. I was pretty much an all-Marvel guy in those days, and once I'd bought into the Marvel Universe, I pretty much bought into all the players. Sure there were bad writers, but none that outright put me off a character. Anyone else like this? ****** And as for SLEEPER (Quixote, I know you're waiting on the trades for Season 2, so fer god's sake look away now!! SPOILER WARNING!!!)...man, I felt really let down. 24 issues of Holden twisting in the wind and the best Brubaker could come up with was an ending cribbed from Ambrose Bierce's much-cribbed "Occurance on Owl Creek Bridge"? I call foul. I definitely felt I was having to wade through Season 2 of SLEEPER, so if ever I needed an ending that wowed me, this was the time. I can respect that no good noir wraps on a happy note, but I at least needed the exhileration of, say, THE USUAL SUSPECTS' final beat. I needed some damn surprises! Oh, it wasn't terrible or anything, but I have a hard time seeing myself ever going back to the series for a re-read now. So much of its tension is predicated on Holden struggling to find a way out of the shithole he's dug himself into...knowing how things play out will likely kill me interest in re-experiencing that journey. It feels like Brubaker painted himself into a corner on this one, or does anyone think this ending was what he had planned from day one?
"If Stan and Jack had gone with Zeus instead of Thor, he would h by Dave_F	Jun 2nd, 2005 02:48:47 AM
That evaluation is kind of genius. Well put.
Homer, good point about THOR needing good art... by Dave_F	Jun 2nd, 2005 03:05:45 AM
Who else would be good on that book? I think Barry Windsor-Smith would be cool. Paul Pope's got enough Kirby influence that I'd love to see him drawing Thor, especially in a big city story. Tim Truman could capture the more "grim 'n' gritty" side of Norse mythology - I'd put him on some "Thor versus Frost Giant" stories, stuff set in and around Asgard. I'd say Romita Jr., but he was surprisingly disappointing when he kicked off Jurgens' run. Sometimes Romita's just not on his game, though, so maybe with a stronger writer... ***** Hey, Homer, were you talking about Jurgens' run when you said you liked the "latest incarnation" of Thor? I skipped it for a few years, but was generally liking some of the Thor-takes-over storylines. Oeming really did screw the pooch, though, didn't he? He's ruined Thor for a few years at the very least. Have you heard Gaiman's "new Thor" pitch? Ugh. I have no doubt it'd make a fine prose story if Gaiman just wrote it as a novel outside the Marvel U., but within the Marvel Universe it just pisses all over a good character. It'd just be passing time (probably four or five years) until the real Thor is brought back ala GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH. All that said, Oeming's pending THOR collaboration with Scott Kolins sounds halfway decent: http://www.newsarama.com/forum s/showthread.php?s=6d35c8255a5 d0287da898a4551a716ca&threadid =35007 Oeming seems too serious when he writes all this stuff, though, the same problem I've had with other THOR writers. I think one of Simonson's most underrated contributions during his run was infusing the book with a sly sense of humor. That actually brought the poignant moments into sharper relief I think.
Tombseye, as much as the world can be a shitty place... by Dave_F	Jun 2nd, 2005 03:18:41 AM
I still think Millar's shock value cynicism is too overwhelming. Guy writes every character subversively - every one of 'em! - and the thing is, I actually think there might just be a few sincere people in the world. Hell, even WATCHMEN had one or two. Personally, I think it's UNrealistic that he portrays everyone as such a snide douchabag. Even Millar's take on Peter Parker was kind of a douchebag (remember him talking smack about Ant-Man for being nerdy? Does this sound like something Peter Parker would ever do?).
first by zigx6969	Jun 2nd, 2005 03:57:40 AM
first do I get a prize now
dont I feel like a dumb ass by zigx6969	Jun 2nd, 2005 03:59:27 AM
yes I do
I got one for ya Dave F...two even! by Shigeru	Jun 2nd, 2005 11:06:18 AM
Millar didn't write old as hell Bucky and Gail subversively! They weren't douchebags! Then again if I was one of the world's biggest celebrities and had super powers, I would probably end up being a huge douche too.
I disagree with you on SLEEPER, Dave. by SleazyG.	Jun 2nd, 2005 01:00:32 PM
It's not really much of a crib on "Owl Creek Bridge" at all, really (side note: worst such ripoff ever is the movie "Jacob's Ladder"). If it were, well, not to ruin it for people who haven't seen the "Outer Limits" episode, but the entire layout of the story would have been different. That one little scene you're talking about is really un-"Owl"-ish. I also think it ended the only way it could, and I think Holden got the closest to his kind of escape as he could have possibly gotten. It was also nice to see that he did manage to get the best of at least one of the rat bastards who'd been twisting him up all this time. I found the ending to be logical, appropriate and entertaining. It was also pretty much textbook noir, which is a good thing.
More Millar non-douches by SleazyG.	Jun 2nd, 2005 01:08:26 PM
Henry Pym isn't a snide, insincere douchebag. Sure, his wife-beating is an incredibly shitty thing to do, I'll grant. Being a physically abusive spouse/partner is completely unacceptable. But the character never comes off as smartassed, snide, tongue-in-cheek, etc. He comes off as extremely sincere, truly sorry for the ways he screwed up his life, and constantly in search of ways to redeem himself. Of course, I fully expect this to lead him to make things better instead of worse, but that makes him a tragic character, not a douchebag. One screwup that you end up paying for the rest of your life is tragic. Being a smarmy, self-involved prick makes you a douchebag, something the guy has avoided thus far. Oh, and Jan's no douchebag, either. She's stood up for herself against Hank and Cap so far, which is pretty impressive, considering what a douche Ultimate Cap is. The new version of Nighthawk or Darkhawk or whatever from the most recent issue, though? Total douche.
Re: Millar and douchebags by superninja	Jun 2nd, 2005 06:40:58 PM
Seems my post didn't make it so I'll repeat. Shiguru said: "Millar didn't write old as hell Bucky and Gail subversively! They weren't douchebags!" I posit that it's because they weren't around long enough to get the full douchebag treatment. Remember, Ultimate Cap was not a major douchebag in the beggining, either. Bucky and Gail were probably destined for the S&M club for the aged if Millar had had them stick around.
Damn, Dave, I thought I was down on current comics... by sideshowbob	Jun 2nd, 2005 09:46:53 PM
I can at least get jazzed up for DD, 100 Bullets, Fables, Athiest, Goon & Seven Soldiers. YOU, friend, are becoming one cantankerous bastard!
It's true, Sideshow. I'm old before my time. by Dave_F	Jun 2nd, 2005 11:03:40 PM
And, Sleazy, Hank Pym might not be snide and insincere, but he IS a wife-beatin', loser douchebag. Millar's still playing it subversive by ascribing only the negative characteristics of the mainstream Pym to his Ultimate Universe counterpart. Shit, man, a wifebeater's hardly "tragic", not as Millar's played him. Do we know anything of Pym's background to give us cause to feel sorry for him? After he bug-sprayed his naked wife and sicced ants on her? As for SLEEPER, I think the whole notion of "textbook noir" is kind of BS, like an excuse to not have to innovate. I'll tell ya, if Brubaker had ended the series the way he did with the wrap of season one, I'd have been reasonably accepting of it. But after 24 issues? It's hard for me to be anything but disappointed at such a traditional route. ********* Incidentally, Sideshow, I have found a FEW diamonds in the rough. I chanced across the longrunning cult comic STRANGEHAVEN recently (should've listened to Liz when she talked it up a few years ago), and was just completely taken with it. Been reading a bit more manga lately, too, and finding the gore-soaked survival-fest BATTLE ROYALE to be a pleasant release. Also on the manga front: CROMARTIE HIGH SCHOOL, a brilliantly insane collection of vignettes. FABLES is still great - Boy Blue is a fuckin' ninja! YOUNG AVENGERS? So far, so good. And might I remind the TalkBack audience that this latest Millar discussion is actually stemming from a post where I said I enjoyed the latest ULTIMATES?! I mean, damn, y'all! SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT is kinda cool, 'cause how often do the friggin' U-Foes get a good spotlight? Am reading EISNER/MILLER - that's real good. ATHEIST, of course, I'm onboard. We3 just got traded - rockin'. SEVEN SOLDIERS might've lost a little oomph, but I'm still enjoying. I suppose I just need to ween my sorry fanboy ass of Marvel and DC altogether and I'll feel a lot more comfortable with things. It's hard to let go, though, innit? One becomes possessive over the years, even knowing, as per Darksider's post earlier in the TalkBack, that it's inevitable that the mainstream will disappoint with its cyclical weaknesses.
there's some good stuff out there by sideshowbob	Jun 3rd, 2005 09:42:06 AM
Yah, STRANGEHAVEN is quality. I read it a few years back. Manga? My enjoyment of UZUMAKI has led me now to GYO (by the same guy), which is a step down but still very good. I've finally taken Buzz's advice and am reading ESSENTIAL TOMB O' DRAC (loving it). Oh, another quality indie book hit yetserday, STREET ANGEL. And I DID like the first ish of DESOLATION JONES. Oh yeah, and Captain America is slow going, but I like it. Strangely, lately I've been more into the humor books: Goon, Plastic Man, JLI, Dan Slott. RUNAWAYS, alas, is lacking something in this go-around (I notice the @$$holes NEVER cover this former staple of theirs anymore). Ah, well, more money for me, I guess.
This talkback is about 3 minutes from being dead but... by Shigeru	Jun 3rd, 2005 03:27:18 PM
what the hell. So #1 I've never seen an actual "douche bag" and I hope I never do. #2 For the sake of arguement, where is the line drawn between a written character being a douchebag and merely a 'conflicted, complex person'? I suppose the answer is that the conflicted character is a douche some of the time, like all of us, while still exhibiting heroic and/or honorable traits in order to redeem themself. See: most every character in The Walking Dead. So all the Ultimates show only the asshole side all of the time? Cap is a big mean old jerk cause he kicks a dude in the face after said dude murders 800 innocents in a selfish attempt to get his estranged wife's attention? I can sympathize with both Cap and Banner in that situation. And is Tony Stark a douche when he overcomes his paralyzing fear to divert that alien ship crashing into Reno (or wherever that was)? Or when Hawkeye talks to his family on the phone before every mission? To me it's stories about interesting, flawed characters that are told quite well. It doesn't rape my childhood or anything to see Cappy American do something stupid. Anyways, the only thing I thought was interesting in the Marvel U. about the Pyms was the fairly obvious symbolism of Hank turning big and his wife turning small and the spousal abuse/dominance thing that went along with that. It was one of the best moments in the Ultimates so far... "You shouldn't have made me look small, Jan..." End long post.
RUNAWAYS by Dave_F	Jun 3rd, 2005 03:30:44 PM
It's sad, isn't it? Season Two of RUNAWAYS ain't terrible, but it's definitely not the lively, unpredictable book it used to be. My biggest beef is that the leads have been coming across as jerks for the last few issues, contrivedly forced into clashes with Excelsior and grilling their captive like wannabe Vic Mackeys. Like Greg up there with DARK DETECTIVE, though, I want to give this book a chance to come through. Vaughan's shakey lately, though. I finally opted out of EX MACHINA, Y has just been so-so, and now RUNAWAYS...dang. To some extent, I think it's a matter of me as a reader becoming overly accustomed to his writing quirks. You follow everything a writer does and you're bound to see some repetition, some recurring annoyances, atc. Certainly that's what happened to me when Bendis hit it big. Was all over his stuff for a time, and then...I got feeling I'd seen his entire bag of tricks and there wasn't anything left to see. I'd like for him to wrap strong on DAREDEVIL, though (last story arc's a'comin'). Been buying that book in hardcovers, more out of habit than love of the book in recent volumes, but I'd like to hope, y'know? I find his stuff very readable, and DAREDEVIL's his one Marvel book that I can see myself returning to because readers get such an intimate portrayal of a single character. I feel like I've been hanging out with Matt, Foggy, et al. for the last few years and, whatever the ups and downs of that time, it's stayed with me. I want their story to end on a strong note. Be nice if it was something a bit hopeful in Murdock's life, but I'll settle for anything good and dramatic.
Shigeru by Dave_F	Jun 3rd, 2005 03:41:16 PM
Keeping everything simple: I just think Millar chooses to overemphasize people's negative/cynical qualities over their positive/sincere ones. Anecdotally, sure you can find moments when his characters acted heroic, but it's all in the balance he strikes. His Cap for instance...it's as if Millar's very specifically chosen to emphasize his thuggish side in recent months. There've been compassionate moments in the past, but when he turned on Thor so suddenly, smarting off while he flamethrowered him, it felt like Millar just hadn't gotten his fill of cynicism and chose Cap (inappropriately) as his venue for getting it off his chest. You look at the ending to WANTED, the ending to CHOSEN...Millar likes to shock with people turning away from redemption. And that's fine. It's his perspective. But it makes his "compassionate" scenes ring false to me. They feel tacked on, and the only time I get the sense Millar is being true to himself is when he's writing people being shits to each other.
"I just think Millar chooses to overemphasize people's negat by JonQuixote	Jun 3rd, 2005 05:29:56 PM
I think this is very true of Millar's ULTIMATE work, at least what I've read of it. The "How to Ultimize Characters (the Millar Way)" seemed to be a) Latch on to obvious negative quality associated with character b) Crank up to 11 c) Pick celebrity template d) Add earring. Although I found this to be more true with ULTIMATE X-MEN than it was with ULTIMATES, which at least had some surprizes and interesting tweaks. Anyway, it was this Ultimate tendency - combined with his MK SPIDEY attempts to toughen up Spidey's villains by casually ringing a body count (wow. genius) - that made the respect he lavished on the Marvel U in ENEMY OF THE STATE such a wonderful surprise. I can't help but wonder if Millar doesn't really have much of a style or outlook per se, but seems to emulate what works. His ULTIMATE stuff is pretty much AUTHORITY meets BENDIS. His MK SPIDEY & WOLVIE is very much in the Hush template. And now in the post-Jemas Marvel, one that seems to be embracing crossovers and continuity and finds room for more classicist takes (like SHE-HULK), Millar's sensibilities seem to change as well. Which is maybe as it should be?? *** Still, I've dug ENEMY OF THE STATE so much that all is forgiven. Anybody who can write something so gleefully and respectfully superheroic can't be all bad. I only hope that this style characterizes his work for a good long while.
Vaughan (if anyone's still listening) by sideshowbob	Jun 3rd, 2005 07:22:50 PM
I like to think Vaughan's gonna blow us away with "The Pride of Baghdad" later this year. My main problems with Runaways Vol.2 is Excelsior. Those characters don't act the way they should, even within the "rules" Vaughan has set up. My interest is fast-waning (sorry, the Doom reveal hasn't revived it), but, like you, I'm hoping for a comeback, and I'd be shocked if there wasn't one. *** I hear you about getting familiar with a writer's tics. I could run off a small list of faults with all my favorite writers at this point, and the element of surprise is down. Does this mean we need some new blood in there with BMB, JMS, BKV, Millar, Johns, Brubaker, Ellis, Ennis, Milligan, Morisson and Rucka? I say FUCK YES. And I'm not talking about writer X from hot TV show/movie Y either. Slott is a good start; let's see some more.
Re: the Doom reveal in RUNAWAYS by SleazyG.	Jun 3rd, 2005 07:27:26 PM
I'm not convinced it's gonna be Doom at all. Vaughan likes to throw a lot of twists and red herrings in, and I can't help but think this is probably one of them. I mean, the kid's first name is Victor, fer cryin' out loud. Nobody should be surprised that Doom was the obvious choice for Father of the Year, y'know? Then again, since it's that obvious, I have to question if it's really gonna be the case when we reach the end of the first year of Vol. 2. I'm just waiting to see who it really is.
yay by blackthought	Jun 5th, 2005 09:45:59 PM
last......where you at gusnukem?
not so fast , buster ... by Gus Nukem	Jun 6th, 2005 04:38:58 PM
gus nukem is in the house. the last one in the house.

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