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AICN COMICS! CAPTAIN AMERICA! DOC FRANKENSTEIN!! INTERVIEW WITH RAVEN GREGORY!!! AND MORE!!!

This is a good website by farthead	Feb 16th, 2005 02:29:05 PM
www.nickgibbons.com
first by coldpizza	Feb 16th, 2005 02:32:38 PM
I'm such a loser.
NO by BurlIvesLeftNut	Feb 16th, 2005 02:36:55 PM
You heard me.
OH BUDDY by AlgertMopper	Feb 16th, 2005 03:01:29 PM
I bought that Kirby/BlackPanther trade a week or so ago and blown away by visualy, you are correct, the writing is week, but the imagination involved in the stories and art more tham make up for it. Young Avengers i was somewhat suprised by, meaning it didn't suck as hard as I thought it would. And what is this like the fifth time Kang has fought himself? Ridiculous. Captain America sure is a great comic, plus he uses them pockets, something i've never seen Cable do in the Liefield days. Grimjack rocked my ass off, that was first exposure to it, bought the trade the same day i bought the Kirby/Panther trade and loved. And yes Walking Dead is one helluva comicbook.
Are you STILL complaining about that French joke in "Ultimates"? by rev_skarekroe	Feb 16th, 2005 03:08:39 PM
I swear, when you have to politically correct about the French it's almost enough to make me start voting Republican.
Ah, how great is it not to be such a cynical @$$hole by ChorleyFM	Feb 16th, 2005 03:09:27 PM
I liked Young Avengers for what it was, a smartly scripted, brilliantly drawn and fairly well concieved book. I didn't look at the hype, I looked at a writer whose work I have enjoyed on Gilmore Girls and The OC, and one hell of a fantastic artist, and I decided that I wanted to read the book. But then again I am a big fan of Bendis, so what the hell do I know. Also, the whole point about Ultimate Cap is that HE IS NOT THE 606 Cap, Bru's Cap has so far been class, but Millar derived a character to act in a way that he wanted the character to act. If he was doing the same thing to the 606 Cap I too would be pissed off, but it is the ultimate cap-there is a difference.
get it right by AlgertMopper	Feb 16th, 2005 03:15:20 PM
it's 616, NOT 606, and the Gilmore Girls, and the O.C. both suck balls
Welcome to the fold Ambush. by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 16th, 2005 03:17:30 PM
WALKING DEAD is one of my favorite titles right now. It's good to see that someone who is used to looking at comics with a more critical eye got sucked in just as quickly as I did. That first trade was some powerful mojo........I'll just say it; you guys were right. Wizard is officially a joke. I have read that magazine for years. You can feel the enthusiasm in the writing, and it was always a fun and sometimes informative read. BUT..in the last issue they had to go and recommend Catwoman on DVD. Man, there's a big fat line between love of the genre and complete dumb-assery. So long Wizard.
Cap acting right... by KOLOBOS REXX	Feb 16th, 2005 03:18:07 PM
...It's nice to see that Cap is acting the way he's supposed to... I've had a real issue with his recent portrayls as an asshole, obviously influenced by "Ultimates". He can be a charismatic leader & a badass... But he doesn't HAVE to be an outdated, jar-head asshole. So... Anyone heard about the Ghost Rider relaunch?
Ghost Rider relaunch by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 16th, 2005 03:37:21 PM
Isn't Garth Ennis taking that on? I forget where I saw that. May have been in----wait for it-----Wizard.
this book might survive without defining artist, Lark by riskebiz	Feb 16th, 2005 03:50:03 PM
No. It won't. They need to drop Stefano Gaudiano yesterday. I thoroughly hate his style on this book. I found myself just reading captions and trying to avoid the art which is a terribly bad. Lark was the perfect artist for Gotham Central. They need someone similar. They are having the same problem over on Hellblazer. Marcelo Frusin was born for that title and Leonardo Manco's art is a big turn-off in comparison. Both artist's should be replaced pronto.
AlgertMopper by ChorleyFM	Feb 16th, 2005 04:23:10 PM
Sorry yeah 616, I was thinking of the BBC Radio Five Live football phone in show 606. Anyway I like both the GG and the OC, just a question have you ever watched a full episode of either?
slow week by Fantomex	Feb 16th, 2005 04:25:09 PM
I think I only picked up 2 issues last week, neither of them reviewed.
The Cap Dave Grew Up Reading by bizarromark	Feb 16th, 2005 04:30:42 PM
"Thank you, Ed Brubaker! This is the Cap I grew up reading."______Really, Dave? I think the two of us are somewhat close in age (in our thirties) and I don't recall the Cap of the 70's and 80's spending any panel time propping up the French. Sure, the Steve Englehart Cap did some disillusioned hand-wringing about America, which we've seen resurface from time to time....but the vast majority of Cap stories have had only a hint of political overtones...if any at all, which is surprising considering who the character is and his early history. Most of the modern-era Cap has been more about death-rays, Adhesive X and the Cosmic Cube than Cap sticking up for the French. Nah...this isn't the Cap you grew up reading, Dave....but rather the same old 21st century Cap who's frequently been used as a progressive soapbox to scold Red Staters into the Proper Enlightened Way of Thinking, at least according to the lefties that glut the industry.____Let's take a look at that "inspiring" quote you lifted from the Cap book: "I
I don't know, b-mark... by Ambush Bug	Feb 16th, 2005 05:26:43 PM
the Cap I grew up reading always represented the best aspects of America, not the worst. There may not have been stories reminiscing on WWII battles, but the ideals were still always present. I would much rather see a hero wrapped in the American flag be sympathetic to victims of a war (even shudder the French -- not to take anything away from the Jewish victims of the war, but that's really not what Cap was talking about in that particular snippet of conversation), rather than being judgemental to those not brave enough to fight. And the Cap I grew up with was the Mark Gruenwald Cap, fighting Mother Night and the Sisters of Sin, Flag-Smasher and the Watchdogs, Scourge, Crossbones, the Serpent Society, and of course, the Red Skull. Cap's villains were much more symbolic back then. They didn't represent other countries as much as they represented the aspects of American society that were not so good. It was a great contrast pitting a symbol of what America can be against what it sadly often is.
Cap, Runaways and the Young Avengers by Homer Sexual	Feb 16th, 2005 05:33:15 PM
Ok, that was some sweet art on Captain America, but I am a total leftie and even I don't need to hear Cap waxing on about the valiant French in WW2. Plus, Sharon Carter? It just seems like great art but not engrossing story. I'll have to check out the whole issue online first. RE: Runaways: Yes, it was that recommendation that turned me on to my favorite comic, so thank you for that, Dave F. And as far as the Young Avengers, it was lame. Not as bad as Avengers Disassembled, but still weak. Good enough art, terrible story. Never have seen OC or Gilmore Girls, but YA is sorry. However, as far as ambiguous, Hulkling and Thor Boy (or whatever his name is) really seemed to be written as a couple. I'd rather have TPs of the uncollected parts of the latest Priest Black Panther than read any of that old stuff. As far as Kirby, I'd jump at New Gods, Forever People or Kamandi in TP form.
Thanks, Ambush Bug by bizarromark	Feb 16th, 2005 05:35:24 PM
Ambush Bug: Let me get this straight: we CAN'T judge "those not brave enough to fight" causing who-knows-how-many Allied soldiers to lose their lives, but we CAN cast judgement (albeit symbolically) upon "aspects of American society" the left finds troubling? Ah....got it now. Thanks for the clarification.
"Factors like the startling speed of their surrender, the collab by Voice O. Reason	Feb 16th, 2005 05:51:47 PM
You seem to miss the distinction made between the French people during WW2, and the French government. The Resistance went on AFTER the Nazi occupied the country, and DeGaulle NEVER comtemplated surrender.
DeGaulle never contemplated surrender. by Voice O. Reason	Feb 16th, 2005 05:53:04 PM
Good lord, my spellling sucks today.
BizarroMark, you're misreading Cap's statement. by SleazyG.	Feb 16th, 2005 05:58:11 PM
He's not suggesting the French were brutalized in Buchenwald. His point was that he had never seen such mass atrocities visited upon any group of people as he did in France...until he got to a death camp, and realized how much worse it could get. He wasn't taking away from the seriousness of the camps or of the brutalization of the Jews. He was saying that other than those camps, what the Germans did in France was the worst he'd ever seen. Additionally, to suggest that it's only been recently that Americans considered the French cowards is a bit off the mark. I've been hearing about what cowards they were since the 70's. They've always been considered to be a bunch of ignorant simps who caved the minute Hitler pointed a gun at them. A lot of the time it's even been implied that the reason they gave in so easily as a country is that, deep down, they weren't the biggest fans of the jews either. In my entire life I don't recall anybody ever implying the French were of any use militarily whatsoever in the last 150 years or so. They were of no use in WWI or WWII, we had to save their asses in Korea and Vietnam, etc. That's the mentality I've always seen from grade school on, so no, it's not just because they had the good sense not to get involved in Bush's personal crusade. And as for the idea that Cap was fighting enemies that symbolically represented the aspects of American society that "the left" found to be problematic...yeah, good point. Those stupid, evil, dangerous liberals who think that racism, bigotry and fascism are a tad misguided really have done irreversable damage to the good ol' U.S. of A.
Thanky to you, b-mark, for misquoting me like a true talkbacker. by Ambush Bug	Feb 16th, 2005 06:33:03 PM
I'm neither left or right, but thanks for assuming. I do know that the villains Cap fought in the Gru days represented things like racism and bigotry (the Skull, The Watchdogs), hypocrisy in the church (Mother Night), corruption in the government and secret shadow cabinets (Serpent Society, Scourge). THOSE are the "aspects of America" Cap was up against. I'm no flag-burner, nor am I a flag-waver, but those are definitely "aspects of America" that I wouldn't mind seeing Cap put the kibosh on.
one day there'll be a TB without politics...until then, IGNORE! by RealDoubleJ	Feb 16th, 2005 06:46:53 PM
Doc Frankenstein's an unexpected gem. But, with the Wachowskis responsible for the writing, i'm going to keep my estimations for the enevitable ending low. At the moment, it's very clever in the way they've taken the Monster from Shelley's book, the intelligent creature instead of the cigar-smoking Karloff dolt, and ran with the idea of how the world itself would respond to him over the span of his immortal life. I just worry it could end in a splooge of action and mumbo-jumbo that won't make too much sense......but it'll be pretty though top marks for Skroce
The Secret Empire / HYDRA / AIM / The Skeleton Crew Were Smashed by Buzz Maverik	Feb 16th, 2005 07:06:22 PM
...Number 1 / Baron Stucker / Modok / The Red Skull escaped.
de Gaulle didn't represent France by lynxpro	Feb 16th, 2005 07:25:05 PM
de Gaulle was propped up by the British and the Americans during the War to give a figurehead face to the French to resist the Nazis and their sympathizers. Prior to the War, his own comrades hated him. The only thing he got right was his proposals that were dismissed by the French military and actually implemented by the German High Command in something we know from history as blitzkreig. The real France of WWII was Vichy France led by Marshall Petain who was actually voted in by the democratically elected French Parliament. de Gaulle's "Free French" movement was a farce. The Brits and the Americans had to threaten much of the French Navy into joining their cause since the legitimate French government at that point were part of the Axis. France has not won a war since...uhm...depends on if you count the American Revolutionary War an actual victory for the French. Napoleon lost twice to the British. France lost again to the Prussians (aka the Germans) in the Franco-Prussian War that created the German State and cost Napoleon III his French Empire. The French essentially lost WWI since it was the threat of "limitless" American bodies that caused the Germans to capitulate (their forces were dug in France too). They lost WWII and left the British to fend for theirselves. Therefore it can be said that the Germans have beaten them three times in a row spectacularly. They let the VietMihn/Cong beat them in the Indochine War and later stabbed our country (as well as our Australian cousins) in the back during the Vietnam Conflict/War. de Gaulle did his best to create a United Europe in opposition to Anglo-American influence to compensate for the loss of the overseas French Empire and give them their own sphere of influence. France begrudgingly served in the Coalition in the first Persian Gulf War and then opposed every effort the British and the Americans tried to punish Saddam for violating the terms of the ceasefire ever since the end of that war all the way up to (and during) the recent Iraqi war. They issued French passports to Baathist leadership to flee during the Iraqi War and avoid capture by the coalition. The French were the ones responsible for almost giving Saddam nukes prior to 1981 too. They and the Germans are also trying to lift the EU embargo against selling modern weaponry to the Chinese government which will eventually be used against American forces trying to protect Taiwan when the Chinese government chooses to invade that democratic island. Their own intelligence service is more interested in spying on American and British companies than it is concerned about terrorism or other threats to the West, yet they complain about our Echelon system. So why should we respect the French? Why exactly should Captain America respect them? They are surrender monkeys who rarely bathe yet feel the audacity to complain about the weight of the average American.
"You think this by Tall_Boy	Feb 16th, 2005 09:07:22 PM
2nd best line in The Ultimates, #1 one is "HULK WANT FREDDIE PRINZE JR!" I don't even care about Cap being preachy about the morality of war. I'm Canadian and I still thought that fucking French line was awesome.
I like France by Orange Crush	Feb 16th, 2005 09:26:55 PM
They're dirty whores are great. And don't get me started about the fries. Magnifique! The good thing about Walking Dead is, starting a new issue is like rolling out of bed in the morning. I'm 99% sure something terrible is going to happen before it's all over, and I'm usually right.
"You think this A stands for France" still rules by RickP66	Feb 16th, 2005 09:30:24 PM
The whole business of the French resistance is so overblown and mythified it's pitiful. The French resistance involved an incredibly small number of people and they accomplished next to nothing. France has its stereotype FOR A REASON. Ed Brubaker can stick his PC bullshit where it belongs and keep it out of my comic books.
The reason the 'A stands for France' jokes gets complaints... by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2005 09:40:07 PM
...has nothing to do with the French or Political Correctness. It has to do with the fact that it's a stupid joke. For one, it's nonsensical (Why would an 'A' stand for France?) and for two it's obvious. It doesn't take much accumen to make a 'Cheese-eating surrender monkey' joke, everybody does it. It's easy. * As for the general non-humorous sentiment regarding the French being cowards, again it's simple and easy. Racism usually is. The truth of the matter is that they got waxed in WWII - they contributed to the creation of a monster in the German War Machine following the Treaty of Versailles. They screwed up pretty royally. But characterizing an entire nation of individuals like that is a pretty reprehensible thing to do, and it does a great disservice to those who died and risked their lives in service to their country and its ideals - ideals, My American Cousins, that aren't all that different from the ones you like to trumpet. Y'know, like Freedom. And Tolerance. Bu yeah, the Vichy government was shitty and capitulating...can we think of an occupied government that hasn't been? Anyone? Anyone? * As for French Anti-Semitism contributing to the capitulation, anybody who has spent any degree of time learning about WWII knows that the extent of the Nazi vendetta against the Jews didn't come to light until after the war was over. And, really, it takes a pretty thorough hatred to make an entire nation say 'Y'know, the whole autonomous country thing is great...but let's stick it to the Jews and surrender.' Of course, I suppose it's easy to view any country as Anti-Semetic in the wake of the Zion that was 30's and 40's America. Right? Still, it's safe to say that while Anti-Semitism and the Nazi approach to Jews was a topic of interest prior to and during WWII, it wasn't exactly a driving force when it came to foreign policy of just about any of the major players. * And anybody who thinks that Cap was devoid of political messaging during the 70's and 80's, probably needed to read a little closer. I for one fondly remember the Serpent Society turning Reagan into a snake. When was it...around Iran-Contra? I guess we can add Mark Gruenwald to Bizarromark's List of Treachery. * By the way, when did acknowledging the valor of WWII veterans in the wake of easy, racist slandering become a Liberal sentiment? I think the talkback here shows a lot more about Partisan leanings than an issue of Captain America. But then...we're all perfect, fair and balanced, and it's the other guys that work their fucked up agenda into everything. Right?
"France has its stereotype FOR A REASON." by JonQuixote	Feb 16th, 2005 09:45:35 PM
Yup. Makes you sure feel good about bein' you, bein' American, don't it? That's a pretty damned good reason. The one that's actually the source of most stereotypes. *** Homework assignment: In 500 words or less (1000 for you, BM. I'm not cruel), try to reconcile the "cowardice" of the French People in the 20th Century with their military history over the previous 1000 years.
No, actually you're full of **&( by RickP66	Feb 16th, 2005 09:52:39 PM
"Yup. Makes you sure feel good about bein' you, bein' American, don't it? That's a pretty damned good reason." Actually no, the real reason is how incredibly useless they've been militarily and how passive-agressive their government has been for the last 100 years. "The one that's actually the source of most stereotypes." Perhaps in your twisted Bizarro World, not in the real one. " *** Homework assignment: In 500 words or less (1000 for you, BM. I'm not cruel), try to reconcile the "cowardice" of the French People in the 20th Century with their military history over the previous 1000 years." The French Revolution/Napoleonic Era. It killed off nearly all French military officers worth a damn. That made the French military clueless, as there was no one to carry on the traditions. Then WWI finished them off as a military power by killing off an entire generation of young men, mostly via the hairbrained tactics that resulted from losing all those military minds a hundred years before.
Dave- If you're missing Ed Brubaker, don't worry... by RenoNevada2000	Feb 16th, 2005 10:15:47 PM
He'll be taking over on DAREDEVIL after Bendis leaves. You heard it here first.
"de Gaulle was propped up by the British and the Americans durin by Voice O. Reason	Feb 16th, 2005 10:30:17 PM
You have NO FUCKING CLUE what you're talking about. Especially since the US recognized the Vichy regime as the official French government! Never lecture me on history again, you pompous right wing whore.
France Bashers And Captain America by Barron34	Feb 16th, 2005 10:32:34 PM
I am no particular fan of France and French culture, but it is frankly very easy to criticize the French surrender to Germany in WW II from the distance of the safe haven of Fortress America. We in the US have two vast oceans between us and the rest of the world, a friendly nation to the north (Canada), and a relatively subservient client nation to the south (Mexico). The French had to deal with the Blitzkrieg and the entire Nazi war machine right on their own borders and in their own homeland. I think US hubris might be tempered a bit if we shared a border with Nazi Germany like the French did, instead of living in the relative safety of a country protected by the entire Atlantic Ocean on its eastern border. America has never really had to face modern warfare on its own soil in the 20th Century. The last major war on US soil was the Civil War, well over 125 years ago. We should not fall prey to hubris in this area, I think. Also, what about the Poles, the Czechs, etc? Should we criticize them as cowards for not stopping the relentless Nazi war machine? What about the millions of Russians who fought and died fighting the Nazis on their own soil? I think that we Americans would come off as nobler and better people if we had a little more humility and a lot less arrogance. We live in a great country and a great democracy. We should be able to be a bit more charitable to a people who had to deal with the total invasion of their home country by the massive Nazi War machine. The German army never even set foot in our own nation, or even bombed us terribly like they did the British during the Blitz. The Vichy Government was, of course, despicable, but I do not think that it is fair to hand wave away the French Resistance. While the Resistance was not significant militarily, it was significant in that it represented the anti-Fascist, pro-freedom element of the French people who suffered total invasion of their home country. Have a little sympathy. I pity any nation that had to face the Nazis directly. Instead of sympathy, we seem to have derision. This seems stupid and arrogant to me. Of course, the relevance of this to the modern war on terror is all debate-able; it is a very different time, and I am concerned that the French government is not energetic enough in its anti-terror policies, and is perhaps too open to the potential movements of Islamo-terrorists. But this seems a seperate matter from the WWII issue. It is just too easy to dismiss the French as cowards when we have never personally had to deal with that kind of invasion. I think that bashing France for capitulating in WW II is still just an easy target for we Americans who have had the good fortune to never really be invaded and attacked by an enemy nation in modern history. It is tragic that the 9/11 attack occurred and seems to have woken us from our slumber and our false belief that we are somehow impervious in the world. Hubris can be deadly when dealing with an enemy like these terrorists, because it can cloud our vision of ourselves and others and our ability to defend ourselves and democracy. Bashing France for their behavior during WW II seems to me to be an example of this kind of hubris and arrogance, and so I think it is dangerous. The Captain America quote in the review does seem to me to be a better reflection of the Captain America that I grew up reading in the 70s and 80s, and reflects the mind of a soldier that thinks as well as fights in defense of democracy world-wide. The Ultimates Cap just seems to be a dumb bully, and it is dangerous to be a dumb bully in the 21st Century world, I think.
And yes, lynxpro, I was talking to you. by Voice O. Reason	Feb 16th, 2005 10:33:41 PM
Fucking idiot.
Quixotic Temper by bizarromark	Feb 16th, 2005 10:36:32 PM
"By the way, when did acknowledging the valor of WWII veterans in the wake of easy, racist slandering become a Liberal sentiment?"___What in God's Green Earth are you talking about, Jon Q? I give some push-back to Dave's Cap review, another poster comes forward with a pretty good indictment of 20th century France (great stuff, lynxpro. You Francophiles should follow his example and site some specifics)....and you're gettin' all blinky on us, ala Herbert Lom in the "Pink Panther" movies. And what does the previous thousand years of France have to do with their conduct in the 20th century? It's like asking someone to think of all the nice things the guy who's just punched you in the eye did in his past. What does it matter? I guess I wasn't aware other countries were immune from hard criticism unless we could provide a complete 1000 year summation of their military history. What an absurd request.
Not ONLY did France surrender to the Germans... by RickP66	Feb 16th, 2005 10:38:49 PM
...they also fought much more fiercely against the AMERICANS in north Africa than they ever did against the Nazis. Seems like the raving liberals on this board know as little of history as they do of politics and reality.
Only part of France surrendered to the Nazis, RickP66. by Voice O. Reason	Feb 16th, 2005 10:50:31 PM
Surely I can't be the only fucker here with a history degree. I guess when it comes to WW2, everybody THINKS they're an expert.
The thing everybody who likes the "A for France" line forgets... by SleazyG.	Feb 16th, 2005 11:34:06 PM
...is that the very next issue of THE ULTIMATES took it back. Somebody else (I think it was Samuel Fury) calls Cap out an asks what the "A for France" comment was all about. A slightly embarassed and chagrined Captain America then admits that yeah, it was a little over the top, but these things happen in the heat of battle. When the writer has even the person who said it admit it was a bit much, maybe there's something to be learned there. Or, y'know, you could keep being a jingoistic jagoff who overlooks the massive loss of civilian life that the French had to suffer at the hands of the Germans. They had to deal with shit the likes of which we've never seen in this country, and if their leaders are assholes, well...so are everybody else's. Yours, mine, everybody's. Just out of curiosity, BTW: why are the French so much more reviled today than, say, the Germans? Y'know, the ones who were Nazis 60 years ago and are still virulently racist? The ones who are now requiring their unemployed women accept jobs as prostitutes or else lose their unemployment benefits? What about the Japanese? The ones who bombed Pearl Harbor and are now kicking our asses in the economy? Why aren't we harder on the Spanish and the Italians, both of whom worked with the Nazis? What the fuck is wrong with you people? If you're gonna indiscriminately hate people based purely on where their parents gave birth, couldn't you at least pick the people who were the Bad Guys in the last major worldwide conflict instead of some of the victims? I guess the beautiful thing about ignorant bigotry and racism, though, is it doesn't have to make any sense.
Folks acting like poli-dicks... by IRuleAll	Feb 17th, 2005 12:04:15 AM
First, I'll promote groups.yahoo.com/group/theahol einthewall. Join it and discuss all year round... Next, I think the scene in the Ultimates #12 was the rightwing Fury commenting positively about the France bash. He even said Hawkeye was cracking up about it, Hawkeye also being rightwing according to Millar himself. He basically said the Ultimates is the opposite of his beliefs, about majority right leaning people in the "machine" so to speak, and I admire him for writing them as people and not sterotypical redstate rednecks. I think arguing about France's cowardice and/or underground heroism is kind of moot as both sides probably have some points and nobody on this talkback was around during the living hell of WWII. Can't we all agree Runaways is awesome?
" I give some push-back to Dave's Cap review" by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 12:19:27 AM
Actually, your push-back seems largely directed against the French people, and Brubaker's allegedly leftist politics. But if you want to recoil from your bigoted, partisan post I can't say that I'd blame you.
Sorry everyone, but the A doesn't stand for France joke kicked a by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 12:26:13 AM
You take one little joke too seriously and bitch about it like a woman on some talkback 6 months later. Get a life. France has lost just about every major conflict they've had in modern and not-so-modern history. AND YES, THE WORD 'FRANCE' DOESN'T START WITH THE LETTER 'A'. YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO DISCOVER THIS STARTLING FACT. Thats kinda the point of the joke. Low brow? Yeah. Although, if you don't like that you probably didn't like ARMY OF DARKNESS. Oh yes, I played THAT card. And people, people, try your best to remember that Captain America comes right out of World War II, so his perception of France MIGHT JUST BE A LITTLE biased.
SleazyG., Samuel Fury's line makes the original "France" line fu by Tall_Boy	Feb 17th, 2005 01:22:59 AM
first of all, its a great splash page. Hitch rules all. Sure, splashes are overused, but splashes are usually overused for "wide shots", not "extreme closeups", like how that page is. The expression his face, the pointing, and the line of blood dribbling down his face just gives it a really bad ass feel. Of all the splash pages in Ultimates (and there are ALOT) I think thats one of my favourites. The fact that its a splash page, and Hitch's art, is why people remember it. (you don't see people still bitching over a year about the small pannel where the soliders kick the kid over, do ya?) Second of all, Fury's & Cap's bit recalls how fucked up the line is. I don't think its Millar apologizing, I think its meant to be a character moment when two guys are just talking about a funny joke they heard. It deflates the inherent stereotyping in the line, but the line is funny BECAUSE its such a bizzare and stereotypical thing to say. Ultimates is all about style, its not meant for "deep reading". It ain't Watchmen or Maus, thats for darn sure. I bought the hardcover (and I never do that after I've already read it) because it works as a single piece of self-contained entertainment, and the hardcover gives it that "big budget polish" feel. Bitching about a joke just kills the fun, because its so stupid and bizzare, its not meant to be taken seriously in the first place.
good reviews guys by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 01:34:16 AM
that grimjack shit looks pretty damn sweet and the art from captain america made me want to check it out even though i havent been a huge cap fan in the past.i guess its business as usual in the talkbacks but its interesting to hear different takes on history nonetheless.well i took up some @-hole recomendations and bought the goon and the gift trades and have so far been pretty impressed. thanks guys! oh and i second the sentiment from irule to join the aholeinthewall!peace and chicken grease
the cap from the ultimates... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 01:35:54 AM
comes across as a cock sometimes. ill take regular marel U cap any day
Mountains out of mole hills... by Dave_F	Feb 17th, 2005 02:37:41 AM
Oi effin' vey. Who knew that keying in on a moment of compassion from Marvel's equivalent of Superman would raise such a stir? That there would be any serious objections to Cap showing good will for a people with whom he's fought alongside within the last ten years of his experience? Read the entirety of the story and I think you'll see that Cap's compassion is hardly an infringement on his effectiveness as a soldier, patriot, adventurer, or superhero. And if it still raises your hackles, keep in mind that it's something like five pages in a thus-far 66-page story of total espionage bad-assery. Unclench. Enjoy. Drink in the finest art of Steve Epting's career.
by cactusmaac	Feb 17th, 2005 04:03:40 AM
There were Frenchmen who supported the Resistance and Frenchmen who actively supported the Vichy government and worked hand-in-glove with the Nazis. Some of them risked their lives to protect Allied servicemen and others travelled to Berlin to defend it from the Russians. It'd be inaccurate to lambaste the entire country as cowards or heroes in either instance. Although Cap's remarks about the level of brutality inflicted were weird. The Germans pretty much let the Vichy run the show and occupation was very soft compared to what the Russians went through. And it's not whether Cap's remarks make him seem like a pussy but whether they're accurate sentiments in the first place.
Oh la la by mulberry	Feb 17th, 2005 07:58:38 AM
As far as I can see, most countries' ideal foreign policy to other nations is: "Roll over and be my bitch. If you don't, I'll just come over and fuck you twice as hard. " Fortunately, most countries can't actually implement that policy, which is when they start throwing tantrums.
Quixotic Temper, part II by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 07:59:17 AM
"But if you want to recoil from your bigoted, partisan post I can't say that I'd blame you."____"Bigoted"? How so, Jon? Does having a low view of France automatically qualify a guy as a bigot? My opinion is formed by a mountain of facts, with the sober and obvious understanding that not every individual who ever lived in France is worthless. When taking the historical evidence into consideration, France....meaning its elected leaders and the people who elected them, have serious failings and treacherous tendencies. I realize you'll shoot back with "SO'S AMERICA"...of which I would say that's your every right to believe...without me labeling you a "bigot". Last refuge of a guy out of arguments: Call your opponent a bigot. Nice move, Jon.
Quixotic Temper III by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 08:12:44 AM
"Actually, your push-back seems largely directed against the French people, and Brubaker's allegedly leftist politics."_____Jon, the actual line from my post was "I give some push-back to Dave's Cap review"....which (at least to me) covers the subject matter of the French people and Brubaker's status as writer. I was responding to the portion where Dave (not me) brings up the whole France angle. Oh...and Dave....I love the mock-surprise that people would disagree with you and Brubaker's pro-France scold. The world's just gone crazy, hasn't it? As far as Brubaker's "alleged" leftist politics, his stories and interviews make no secret of his disdain for Bush and fellow travelers....so I'm not pulling the charge out of thin air, here.
I must point out, Dave_F... by rev_skarekroe	Feb 17th, 2005 08:22:45 AM
...that you're the guy that brought it up in the first place.
"France has lost just about every major conflict they've had in by Voice O. Reason	Feb 17th, 2005 08:24:24 AM
So I suppose you think the Germans won World War I.
"France has lost just about every major conflict they've had in by Voice O. Reason	Feb 17th, 2005 08:25:53 AM
Aw, the "just about" clause keeps your statement accurate, yet pointedly decisive. Well played, Clerks...
You know, I just realized something... by Voice O. Reason	Feb 17th, 2005 08:30:52 AM
...I could give a shit less what Ultimate Captain America thinks about France. BECAUSE HE'S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. As far as France goes, people seem to forget how fucked up France got during World War One. Give those people a break, already. They're right next door to Germany. You probably live in a country that's only been attacked twice since 1814.
Ghost Rider... by KOLOBOS REXX	Feb 17th, 2005 10:05:14 AM
...Ennis doing could be very cool, ala "The Punisher". But I wish that Marvel's half-assed editorial crew would wake up & remember that the second, "Dan Ketch" Ghost Rider is still out and about, somewhere! Howard Mackie ressurected him in an issue of "Spider-Man" several years ago, and we haven't seen him since! Then Devin Grayson writes that crap-ass mini-series that inexplicably turns John Blaze (I guess he gave up seeking out his missing children!), now chafing in the role of a button-down accountant (?!?) back into a new, mute take on his original GR form, but with the spikes & chains of the second one! That series blew... And then we get NO GR action in comics again for another few years... And yet this character is still popular enough to warrant making TWO Marvel Legends figures, with a third (Vengeance) on the way, and the Nic Cage film shooting currently! Go figure... I guess they are too busy figuring out how many MORE books Wolverine can fit into a month...
bizzaromark is in his thirties? by mortsleam	Feb 17th, 2005 10:33:57 AM
That's funny, 'cause half the time he sounds like an uptight, middleaged, semi-retarded, failed businessman propped into a position of power by his daddy's buddies. Or my grandfather, who's been dead for ten years.
The Cap by ThingsThatTimDog	Feb 17th, 2005 10:41:06 AM
I think the Ultimates Captain America is a far more accurate portrayal of what the man would be like in a modern setting. He is "salty" for lack of a better word, and if any of you know people from that generation they were pretty no nonsense types. They also werent indoctrinated by liberal run schools that force fed them fruity PC idioms about possibly "offending" people. Also, hatred/disrespect for France is not some new phenom. I have a uncle who served in the war as a medic and in our coversations he has told me on several occasions that virtually everyone despised the French (not their women so much though^^). Patton's quote from above is not some anomaly, but rather the general consenus of the American and British fighting man. **************************** ** Also, Captain's comments are completely wrong conceptually. France's occupation was extremely soft with the exception of a strongly enforced rationing of materials. The Vichy government fully supported Germany and was largely autonomous.
French "resistance" by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 11:12:45 AM
Focusing in, once again, on "Cap's" words that the people of occupied France were "a group of people who never gave up fighting the Nazi occupation", I have to tell you that Brubaker either hasn't done his research, or is willfully bending history to suit whatever point he's trying to score. Military historian Victor Davis Hanson says this about occupied France: "Most Frenchmen either refused to resolutely fight the Germans or passively collaborated. The idea of a broad resistance was mostly a postwar Gallic nationalist myth. Those who spearheaded a few attacks on German occupiers were more likely led by Communists than by allied sympathizers, and thus fought in hope more of an eventual Soviet victory over the Nazis than an American one." Add this sorry fact to the much longer list, such as France's backstabbing of the colonists at the end of the American Revolution, becoming the first military foe of the United States (following the ratification of the Constitution), seeking to split our nation in two during the Civil War, accommodating the Soviet Union during the Cold War, quitting NATO in the 1960s, or their present day treachery regarding Iraq (such as French prime minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin announcing,
Bigoted by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 11:13:36 AM
I'm sorry, but when an effort to address a common and vulgar stereotype in a comic book brings out your cries of partisan hackery, I can only assume that your prejudices are very near and dear to you, BM. And while since I called you on your post, you've taken careful pains to point out that you mean to criticize only the French Government (oh and the people who 'elected' them - by the way, does applying the same logic to you, make you a torturer?), earlier your comments were focused on "The French". Y'know, the people of France. So you can dress up your prejudices all you like, but I think it's safe to say that when you're denigrating an entire ethnic population (making exception for a few, statistically insignificant individuals. Well, now.) you're gonna get called a bigot. *** As far as American's history of failings and treachery, well d'uh. I'm actually pretty apologetic for the US a lot of the time, calling out people who like to think their country is pristine, but recognizing that to expect any power to not act in its own best interest is pretty silly. Our countries are what they are, and very rarely do they find themselves with legitimate moral high-ground. However, I like to think that when I look at a Presidential Administration that empowered the CIA to overthrow a democratically elected government in South America, hiding behind the Truman Doctrine while really advancing the interests of powerful friends of the Pres, I can't really use that nugget of evidence to look the Eisenhower-voting Boise, Idaho and say that they obviously hate Democracy, like most Americans do. That, my friend, would be ignorant. Not unlike your comments about "the French."
now, now, let's all sit down and have some freedom fries with ma by Shigeru	Feb 17th, 2005 11:19:41 AM
Why isn't anybody bitching about Millar making Jarvis hot for Thor?? I'm sure there's some jokes in there having to do with the two of them and Thor's hammer. And oh yeah, that issue was superb. The end was great, perfectly done.
everyone in their 70s or older, please speak up, everyone else p by Homer Sexual	Feb 17th, 2005 11:24:25 AM
Because, honestly, we are talking about comics, not France and especially not France in WW2. I would hazard a guess that no one here has experience with France back in the day, and most of us don't have experience with France in the modern day. Really, who cares about France? Just because they don't toe the USA line? So what? Talk about insecure! I found the "A for France" line amusing and accurate for Ultimate Cap, but really not relevant to modern times. Yes, France was against the Iraq war. Newsflash: Polls for at least the last couple months show a majority of Americans also opposed to Iraq war. Let's just move on and get back to comics. I'd like to say that I greatly prefer Diamondback as Cap's girlfriend to boring, boring Sharon Carter. Cap needs a wilder, badder woman. He doesn't need another dull blonde chick.
Resistance by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 11:25:32 AM
The Resistance numbers list about 115,000 Armed soldiers deployed against German Security Forces. Historian John Keegan reports that the nature of the landscape in Western Europe made the actual scale of guerrilla warfare necessary for a full on military resistance almost impossible, but makes note that the "principal achievement of resistance...was psychological." Considering Hitler's full scale psychological warfare against the Germans following the blitzkreig was significant and malicious (Revenge! Revenge for Versailles!) that almost certainly shouldn't be discounted. Still some of the numbers I'm coming up with (150 officer assassinations in the first two thirds of 1242, interference with the railway network etc.) aren't insignificant. Be advised that using the "French Resistance" as basis for ethnic slurs means that you should also be prepared to denigrate the people of Holland and Belgium. Among others.
Voice O. Reason by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 11:26:06 AM
Time for you to crack open an actual history book. Maybe get a degree beyond high school, or an AA at the very least. de Gaulle was indeed propped up by Churchill and Roosevelt and hated by both men. Idiot indeed. Just because you claim our government recognized Vichy France does not exclude the fact that we gave aid to de Gaulle's "movement"; just as we recognized Saddam's regime even after the Persian Gulf War while bankrolling the Iraqi National Congress and other groups advocating his overthrow. And loathing the French if one is actually of European descent is not racism. Nationalistic, yes; racist, no. As far as I'm concerned, the Fifth Republic is an enemy state based upon how they aided Saddam's regime while our forces and the British fought against them. Their government should be toppled and replaced by a Sixth Republic or a constitutional monarchy with an Orleanist placed on the throne.
I wish I had read that issue so I could comment!!! by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 11:32:06 AM
Its always funny when comic writers try to retcon actual history. Bluring the lines between the real world and fictional work is kind of scary. Is Millar a partisan hack or simply an ego manic who thinks he can rewrite history?
Bizarromark: Torturer by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 11:32:33 AM
"oh and the people who 'elected' them - by the way, does applying the same logic to you, make you a torturer?"___Well, actually....yes....if you believe Bush is a torturer. Anyone who votes someone into office is implying that they agree with the guy's philosophies...however his opponents want to mischaracterize them. Similarly, the French government isn't an entity unto itself separated from its population. The governments elected reflect the dominant or popular sentiment of the populace. Oh....and could you please point out where I claimed I "mean to criticize only the French Government "? I just can't seem to find that claim.___Really, Jon....I fear your time spent around all of those barking moonbats on the Joe Q. political forums may be influencing you a bit.
again, Voice O. proves he does not know history by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 11:38:32 AM
You claim France "won" WWI? Are you really that stupid? Did you get your alleged degree from the Sally Struthers correspondence school? The Germans were deeply dug into FRENCH territory when they threw in the towel. THE FRENCH WEREN'T ON GERMAN TERRITORY, bub. The German High Command realized they could not win a war of attrition against the U.S. continually sending in fresh bodies to supplement the British and French forces. They were reassured by Woodrow Wilson that the Germans would be treated fairly at what later became the Treaty of Versailles. However, the FRENCH had a different idea on how those negotiations would go and forced the hated reparations on the Germans which caused the economic collapse of the German Weimar Republic and led to Hitler's rise-and-punishment of the French. It was the anger of the German people in how they were treated by the French that was responsible for the events that transpired in WWII. Had you been a German who fought in WWI and saw your country split apart (losing East Prussia and other territories) in peace time and seeing your country collapse economically by harsh terms set by the actual losing power (France), its pretty easy to bank on who you'd throw your support to.
bizarromark by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 11:39:34 AM
You do realize the term "fellow traveler" meant a Communist back in the day, right? Heh...
Quoting fun & barking moonbats by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 11:49:01 AM
*Oh....and could you please point out where I claimed I "mean to criticize only the French Government "? I just can't seem to find that claim * It would help if you actually quoted my entire sentence. You left out the "and", as well as everything following it. "France....meaning its elected leaders and the people who elected them, have serious failings". But thank you for again pointing out that your invective is against an ethnic group, not a political body. What was your issue with the word 'bigot' again? * "...if you believe Bush is a torturer." Grey area, isn't it? Abu Gharib. Guantanamo. And yet there are some people who find excuses, apologies, justifications, spins, or the ability to deny. Of course there are also people couldn't care less about anything like that in the wake of the threat to society that is Gay Marriage. Or those that just don't want to risk their taxes going up and don't give a whit about anything else. Or those willing to make compromises because the chance to overturn Roe vs. Wade takes precedence for them over all else. Yeah, I think it's safe to say that it's pretty silly to define an individual by who he votes for. * "I fear your time spent around all of those barking moonbats on the Joe Q. political forums " Well, you're probably right. Some Fox News should balance me right out though. Thanks Mark!
lynxpro by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 11:50:25 AM
"You do realize the term "fellow traveler" meant a Communist back in the day, right? Heh.."____(in the Dana Carvey "Johnny Carson" impression): "I did not know that."___You learn something new every week on the AICN talkback.
Cap's comments about the French... by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 11:51:47 AM
...would be fitting to say about the leftwing rebels who fought the Prussians (Germans) at the end of the Franco-Prussian War in Paris. The leftwingers fortified the city and tried to bleed the Prussian occupiers while Bismark's Prussians did their best to starve the entire city and crush the revolutionary sentiment following Napoleon III's capture and abdication of his throne. However, the fictional character of Cap was not alive during the time period of the Franco-Prussian War thus he either has false memories or he's thinking about events that transpired in a former life. Incidentally, the starving of the Parisians after that war supposedly attributed to the French's love of horsemeat. The eating of frogs predates that considering the English/British have been referring to the French as "frogs" for a good 400 years.
JonQuixote by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 11:58:48 AM
If you are going to bring up the subject of gay marriage, those champions of individual rights, the French, are trying to strike gay marriage down at their national level after a city last year issued marriage certificates. So it is very inaccurate to assert that the Bush Administration is alone in how it treats that group in the world (with the exception of the Netherlands and quite possibly Canada very quickly). Granted, who knows what the outcome will be if a case is brought against the French Government over this at the European Court of Justice at the Hague. Then again, the Hague can't seem to effectively prosecute against war criminal Milosovic who you may recall the United States went to war against (with strong protests against from Russia, Greece, and China) without the approval of the UN...I guess its all right to do that in a leftwinger's mind if Clinton does it but not if Bush does it. Then again, Tony Blair isn't exactly a rightwinger now, is he?
lynxpro by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 12:37:34 PM
"So it is very inaccurate to assert that the Bush Administration is alone in how it treats that group in the world " *** Yes. That would be an inaccurate assumption. Let's see if we can find somebody who made it and gang up on him or her.
Anyway by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 17th, 2005 12:47:29 PM
A lot of people died in the new issue of THE WALKING DEAD. And some got haircuts.
lynxpro solved it by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 02:03:35 PM
OBVIOUSLY Captian America has memory implants! The question is, who from his rouges gallery would benefit by making him think the French sustained any kind of meaningful rebellion during WWII?
Fuzzyjefe... by rev_skarekroe	Feb 17th, 2005 02:19:37 PM
That was the best comment in this entire Talkback.
fuzzyjefe by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 03:04:26 PM
just got the walkig dead trade so im looking forward to catching up with all you guys raving about it. someone posted earlier(i dont remember and dont want to scroll through and find it) about jarvis having the hots for thor in ultimates 3.what shocked me more was the colossus/longshot thing in ultimate x-men! what the hell was that about?
The Walking Dizzle is off the Hizzle. by Booty Fett	Feb 17th, 2005 03:10:09 PM
I only been reading the trades as my local comic shop ain't got The Walking Dead. But I highly recommend the first two trades is off the hook. So "Fuzzyjefe" who died in the latest issue, hopefully not my boy Rick. Out like Johnny Carson. Booty!
Thanks rev... by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 17th, 2005 03:28:58 PM
and Darth, welcome to the family yourownself. Booty Fett, I won't throw any spoilers, but don't you know by now that NO ONE is safe in that book? And that is ONE reason it's a fave. What helps is that the characters are so well-developed that when someone goes, it bothers you.
and see here i am stuck at work... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 04:22:15 PM
...with my freshly arrived box of trades from amazon.com sitting at home!man, and the walking dead is among those trades! damn this day is gonna drag!
I Am A Millar Fan When He's Trying. When He Wrote The France Li by Buzz Maverik	Feb 17th, 2005 04:47:34 PM
...trying too hard. You know what offends me? Bad writing offends the hell out of me, especially when it's done by good writers and especially when fans either don't know or don't care about the difference. Here's what's wrong with the France line: I could see Millar writing it. I could see him sitting at his word processor, engaged in the act of writing a good line. I didn't see Captain America or the situation. I saw a guy saying, "They'll eat this up." Millar's stupider fans praise the worst elements of THE ULTIMATES as being like a Bruckheimer movie or an Emmerich movie or an '80s movie where Ahnuldt made cool quips whenever he killed someone...as if this was writing to imitate. It was fun crap but try to suggest to the very same fans that comics are just fun crap and see what you get. I like Millar. I like his public persona and I like most of his writing. But another bad thing he did with that line is he played it both ways. He wrote a line he knew jinoistic American Idiots would cream themselves over and as a leftist citizen of the UK, he's both smirking and sneering at you for loving the line. He's making fun of you guys, and you deserve it!
Bonjour my yankee chums!! by LuckyPierre	Feb 17th, 2005 05:09:50 PM
"Long time, no hello" as you americans love to say! Yes, I am 'having the nice day'... until I am reading so much posts about how you pretend not to love the great French nation. It is funny, because of course France is much-loved in the US &A, because we helped you win your freedom back in the history, and invented the French Fries you cannot seem to shove enough down your hungry throats. But I forgive you, because your education system is so, how you say, the crappy. My question to you cowboy-yankees is, apart from in that film Red Dawn (a remake of the superior French movie 'Le Matin Est Rouge Pourqouis-Pas Les Armes De La Soviets Arrive' of course), have you ever been invaded by a foreign power of superior force? Perhaps you would be saying the surrender a little quicker than you imagine,non? In my country we have an expression - it is simple to be the soldier when your poo-hole is on the sofa. Comprende?
'Le Matin Est Rouge Pourqouis-Pas Les Armes De La Soviets Arrive by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 05:23:57 PM
Can't...stop...laughing!
"He's making fun of you guys, and you deserve it! " by bizarromark	Feb 17th, 2005 05:32:59 PM
(GASP!) Making FUN of us? I--I had no idea, Buzz! Having read some of Millar's profound political insights on his website, that newsflash of yours really turns my world upside down. Personally, I liked Cap kicking Banner in the face more than the infamous "A" line. I realize alot of you guys would have preferred that Cap down and tenderly embraced Banner and rocked him to sleep.....or gave him a supportive "hand up"....despite terrorizing New York City and killing 800 of its citizens.
Yeah, Millar's a leftist. by rev_skarekroe	Feb 17th, 2005 05:53:44 PM
But he's also got a sense of humor, and I suspect he just thought it was a funny line coming from Ult. Cap. Who, btw, he could have easily made reflect his own politics (as Brubaker has apparently done), but instead decided to portray as the sort of super-soldier that would closely reflect of a WWII American mentality. It's also admirable that he did this while simultaneously making Cap a sympathetic and heroic character, rather than the jingoistic caricature he could easily have been. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I made any sense just then.
the United States fought France by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 05:54:16 PM
We had a naval war with them in 1800. They seem to forget to teach that in the schools. And as colonials, our ancestors fought them for over 100 years as the French tried to wipe out on several occasions the North American English/British colonies. They might've prevailed had the Mohawks not allied themselves with the British... We don't owe France anything. The only reason why they helped out Washington & Co. was out of pure revenge for their absolute defeat at the hands of the British in the Seven Years War (popularly known as the "French & Indian War") where France lost all of Canada and some islands to boot. Their "help" was meant to destabilize the British Empire; not to preserve any natural rights bestowed upon mankind by its Creator. So please do not bring out the tired cliche that France has always been our ally because they have not. And had our country done the right thing two centuries ago, we would've joined our cousins' struggle against Napoleon instead of helping to bankroll him with the monies from the Louisiana Purchase. Then again, Jefferson was a sellout to his blood and a French wanna-be; look up "XYZ Affair" for more on that subject.
but just for the record by lynxpro	Feb 17th, 2005 05:55:12 PM
I do luv Monica Bellucci, so not everything France does is bad. Then again, she is also half Italian...
I hope you're happy, Farabee by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 06:08:51 PM
Behold the havoc ye have wrought. Few are talking much beyond the Cap Caper, apart from some (justly deserved) praise for Walking Dead while ignoring others (deserving moreso -- Gift and Panther). Hell, skarekroe not only posted more than one time, but also posted more than one sentance in a single post! Surely, this is the seventh sign (or 'sine' as Vern might write). You just had to get political, din'cha? And don't say you didn't intend such an outcome. For all the claiming that some of you @$$holes are independant, TB'ers can see your true leanings through that veil. I challenge you people to collectively AVOID any mention of politik in your next article. Take a look at your last several articles pre-election and you tell me what the odds are.
This Just In: Ultimates IS just fun crap by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 06:10:12 PM
you aren't reading War and Peace. If any comic is meaningless fun crap its The Ultimates, and the line fit perfectly. More so because it was coming from Captain America, because his character is SUPPOSED to have outdated politics. Some comic reviewers have this obsession with finding the writers "hidden meaning" behind every line, as if the france quip was some insult to Red State Americans. The only people he managed to insult are the snail eaters. It was funny. Get over it. Oh and buzz, FYI, when you want to try calling a group of fans stupid you probably shouldn't use the word "stupider".
The Hulk Killing 800 People Was Also Bad Writing. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 17th, 2005 06:19:20 PM
Millar doesn't "get" the Hulk. Very few at Marvel have understood the Hulk in the last several years. Although I didn't care for what Jones did, he understood the positive side to the character. It's funny that a guy touted as edgy and modern as Millar can't wrap his head around the idea that not all (super)heroes have to be the same, that the most unlikely character of all, the guy who should be the monster, who should be the villain, is in fact the hero. It's interesting that more than 40 years ago, two guys who were already about 40 years old understood that. Today, they'll tell you that the Hulk isn't a superhero, that he is a monster, that he is a killer. It makes everybody feel so much tougher. They read a comic book with killing so it makes 'em tough, in a way I can't follow but that's what they tell me without telling me. Ang Lee made a lousy movie, but one scene showed me that somebody, maybe one person who wrote that page, got the Hulk: the F117A is about to crash into a traffic heavy Golden Gate Bridge. The Hulk sees what is about to happen and jumps on the plane. He's not attacking. He's trying to save the people on the Bridge.
ULTIMATES isn't much of a commentary. by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 06:23:02 PM
Millar might be taking the piss here and there, but there isn't really much commentary in ULTIMATES. If there was, the Ultimate response to the Hulk attacking New York and killing 800 people would have been to invade Iraq.
Ah, Fantomex... by Buzz Maverik	Feb 17th, 2005 06:26:47 PM
...the talkbacker with reading comprehension problems. You see, I used to phrase "...Millar's stupider fans..." to distinguish them from his less stupid or smart or smarter fans. I am a Mark Millar fan myself so I didn't want to lump myself and many others in with the fools. And no, most people don't think THE ULTIMATES is just fun crap. They will tell you that it's a new, modern, complex, hip, edgy version of the Avengers with intelligent dialogue, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes, it's all of those things. Sometimes, it's just fun crap. Sometimes, it's just crap.
JonQuixote "Ultimate response to the Hulk attacking New York and by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 06:55:40 PM
I've avoided getting into this TB Hissy Fit(tm) until I read that. And now... Fish will smash. Scroll way back up to your first post on this subject. The one dated '2005-02-16 21:40:07' that'll show up nicely if you'll kindly plug it into the Find feature of your browser window. You had me with you, despite our polar political leanings, until about halfway through. You, sir, are a French apologist. It's okay. Inhale deeply and simply accept what you are. A French apologist. Now, there may be very compelling reasons to feel the way you do. As (presumedly on my part) an American, you have that right. Hell, in the rest of the free world, you may have that right too. Semantics aside, this is why you should feel no shame in being who you are. However, there is the matter of 'true' history that counters the latter half and many of the latter posts you've authored. The French haven't been our 'friends' ever. Sure, Presidents come and go, all claiming such, but countries eventually have interests that may or may not conflict. See how that works? It's what keeps us separate countries. Sure, there were resistance efforts on behalf of the French during WWII that would be a sin to ignore, as Cap clearly stated (with a bit of the broad brush, IMO). Yet these 'pockets' of thought in the French are few and far between, over the past pair of centuries, by and large. For example, some of us in America have no problem with the French. Perhaps some of the French have no problem with the U.S. today. That doesn't matter, though. Ultimately, it comes down to the majority of the populace and the officials they have elected. You see, countries don't have 'friends' they have interests -- meaning that if an 'ally' has opposing interests then they take what they find to be appropriate action. To the French, this has meant opposing any and all U.S. initiatives pre-dating the U.N. and (ab)using their veto privilege to impede U.S. action post-dating the U.N. History speaks for itself and I'm not making this up. Now, sure, there are lots of folks that align themselves with your way of thought, such as the TB'er who posted that fictional characters (e.g. Cap) aren't really thinking or saying anything of importance, oblivious to the fact that the writer behind such character is making hay via the outlet the same character provides. Perhaps you feel the same way, or perhaps you don't. Either way, I take umbrage with your U-Hulk comment. U-Banner having internal struggles akin to Bush 43's supposed internal struggles is a quantum leap in Deanology. Now, roll that on the tongue for a while, like a fine, French merlot.
"You claim France 'won' WWI?" Um...they held off Germany for ye by Voice O. Reason	Feb 17th, 2005 07:00:51 PM
Idiot.
The word you were looking for.. by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 07:01:13 PM
.. is "dumber". His "dumber" fans. "Stupider" is not and has never been a real word (regardless of what dictionary.com may tell you). I'm not a grammar Nazi, but if you're going to try and call someone dumb, you should at least do so without maknig up words. I didn't like the Hulk killing 800 people either, but I chalked it up to this being ULTIMATE Hulk, instead of trying to make myself feel superior over "all those other" comic fans. The "stupider" ones. I'm not saying the Ultimates ISN'T well written/new/hip/edgy WHATEVER, but when you have a Norse God, a 80 year old World War 2 Vet, a... well a HULK, a man in an Iron suit, ETC fighting off shape shifting aliens from another dimensions (or whatever the hell is going on) its hard to see it as anything other than fun crap. And if Millar decides to through in a french insult, all the better.
lynxpro by Voice O. Reason	Feb 17th, 2005 07:04:17 PM
I find your ability to quote facts, but come to totally wrong conclusions about them amusing. However, my old professors would have flunked you on the spot.
More stuff by Fantomex	Feb 17th, 2005 07:04:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that wasn't an F117A he jumped off of in the movie, since that is a stealth bomber (the only plan I know) and would be in no way appropriate flying that low, let alone engaging the hulk in any way whatsoever. But maybe they pulled some movie magic.
"As (presumedly on my part) an American, you have that right." by vroom socko	Feb 17th, 2005 07:06:00 PM
Just an FYI, Fish: JonQuixote's one of them Canadians. Don't they all speak French up there anyway?
Fantomex, "I'm pretty sure that wasn't an F117A he jumped off of by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 07:13:34 PM
Eeesh. First of all, I think you meant to write 'jumped ON' yet forgive theminor nit. While I agree with you for the reasons you stated, can we admit that a certain level of disbelief should be applied? After all, for you to complain not only about the aircraft deployed (i.e. that which the common populace would not pick up on, ever) but also the manner in which it was deployed (i.e. altitude and method of engagement)... shouldn't you be more concerned about the basic principles of physics, meaning that the Hulk could never have a chance of deviating the pilot's course by simply pulling up when latched on back? It's a comic movie, guy. Let go.
Immortal Fish by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 07:19:23 PM
Interesting post. I can't help but feel you're ascribing quotes and arguments to me that I didn't make. For example, the stuff about The French are our friends...umm, I didn't say that. And while I won't recoil from the label "French Apologist", I think the closest I've come to making the statements you're addressing is a comment where I acknowledge a tendency to "apologize" for the US acting in its own best interests (and then extending that same 'courtesy' to France). So you do know that, as loquacious as I may be, I don't write all of the posts here, right? The brunt of my blathering here has been centred around this sentement you express: "Sure, there were resistance efforts on behalf of the French during WWII that would be a sin to ignore, as Cap clearly stated (with a bit of the broad brush, IMO)." As in, addressing the sterotype that the French are cowards, and that while it's an easy joke to fall back on, to react with vitriol when a writer actually attempts to redress that stereotype speeks of a greater, deeper bigotry that's kinda sick. http://www.beyondthepalace.com /graveyard/photos33/grave151ex tra.jpg Very few actually shot in the back, y'know? So while I found your post interesting, I hope the next one addresses what I've been talking about instead of stuff about Franco-American friendship that never came from my keyboard.
Vroom, "Don't they all speak French up there anyway?" by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 07:19:43 PM
Indeed. For what it's worth, I'm not one of those jovial, inebriated, flat-headed Canuck Frenchman. I'm a cold, abrasive, eeeBUL, (yet former) Parisian Frenchman. And rightward leaning. Now, since I've garnered the attention of an @$$hole, does this mean, at the very least, that my challenge will be entertained?
JonQuixote by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 07:25:56 PM
Fine. And touche (pun). Your thoughts are not to be confused with the myriad mix of leftist thought in this post. I grant you that. Yabbut, what say you about the Deanology quip? For fear of breaking my own arm off I'm still patting myself on the back for that one.
No, Fantomex, I Used The Word I Meant To Use. by Buzz Maverik	Feb 17th, 2005 07:45:03 PM
I liked the sound of "stupider", I used "stupider". I don't care if you have a problem with it. You're reaching, dude. Same with the Stealth Fighter. You're bugged because I don't remember the airplane in the Hulk? Get a life. As for THE ULTIMATES, with the Norse Gods and Iron Men, etc., if what you're saying is true, we'd just have the Avengers. That's why Ultimate Hulk is a killer, a cannibal and a rapist. That's why Ultimate Cap is Millar's imagining of a U.S. WW II soldier. I say imagining because it's a stereotype. That's why Ultimate Pym just didn't smack Jan, but tortured her. Fun crap is not the goal.
Ma Francais, n'est pas tres bien by JonQuixote	Feb 17th, 2005 07:46:53 PM
The Deanology quip? I dunno. My statement was more a quip about American responses to attacks on New York rather than something that invited comparison between the psyches of Bush and Banner. But, y'know, cool. * Put the wrong picture link in my last post. Hoping nobody notices. I don't know where that graveyard is from. The point stands...the execution, sloppy. * Fantomex: "Stupider"? Ah, Dictionaries. What do they know? It warms my heart to see that somebody is out there fighting the good fight against colloquial English on an Aint-it-Cool talkback. Most of us here are wasting our energies, true, but you make it an art, my friend.
Please don't be coy, Quix by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 08:17:44 PM
Banner willfully deciding to become grey to destroy 800+ lives in NYC for personal gain is way synergetic and comparable to Bush 43 deciding to occupy Iraq for all the same reasons the left obviosuly implicates the man for doing so. Such is Deanology 101.
hey fish dont start sucking your own dick just yet... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 08:29:39 PM
...no clue what deanolgy means.
sorry to be off topic... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 08:49:11 PM
...but when did grimjack comic come out?that looks sweet and i definately want to check it out
Darth Kal-El by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 09:04:25 PM
Thanks to your post, at least we know it may mean a male pleasuring one's self. Thank you very much for providing fertile ground for the right to assume that the left is fed up with the right's presumed inability to meet them halfway on anything, despite at least my own scrawling here. Please do continue to revel in your fantasies of Ron Jeremy fellating Jacques Iraq if it makes you feel that much better. Get outthe vote, you ignorant and obvious tool.
I am thinking that perhaps the US & A hate The France so much by LuckyPierre	Feb 17th, 2005 09:16:09 PM
because they secretly are in love with us, and want to put their yankkee pee-pees in our French butter-holes. Is like crazy romantic comedy, yes? Oh and my English chum Towelie says hello.
Immortal Fish by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 09:34:11 PM
I honestly have no idea what youre talking about. I havent participated in this political discussion so u dont know wether i lean left or right. What i said about sucking your own dick is a line from pulp fiction,you know since were at a movie website and all. i was just saying that while you were patting yourself on the back for your deanolgy quip i personally,and maybe a few others on the talkback have no clue what that means.but hey guess what i did vote! but i was trying to talk comics not politics so fuck you very much fish you cock smoker
Thankyou, Darth Kal-El by Immortal_Fish	Feb 17th, 2005 09:43:10 PM
Look at this cock, that I smoketh. Look at it! I smoke this cock for you. YES! I do. I smoke this cock for you. I do. Look at me while I smoke it. Big and strong, yes, I do. Now, your argument, as it seems. Beeg it is! And yet so small. Perhaps, weight it carees?! Yet it does not. Yet I wait. ---------Look, must I fuck along with this or do you fucking yield to common american yield you stupid shit?!?!?!??!?!?!?!
am i the only one... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 09:50:35 PM
...who thinks immortal douche is posting unintelligable nonsense? What does"yield to common american yield you stupid shit?!?!?!??!?!?!?!" mean?! What part of 'I just came here to talk comics and dont give a fuck about your politics' did you not understand?
I love the Ultimates. It's the best work from the House Of Ideas by Noriko Takaya	Feb 17th, 2005 09:59:53 PM
But yeah, when they finally corral Michael Bay into making the movie (oh please god please god), I hope they leave that "France" line out - it's jingoistic bullshit, and Cap never struck me as being that kind of guy. Still, one could say "heat of the moment" and all. Anyway, I've been going through the Ultimates 2 right now and so far it's been as good as the first. Can't wait 'till the next issue. More reviews of this book, please!
not too crazy about the ultimates... by Darth Kal-El	Feb 17th, 2005 11:00:51 PM
...ive actually never been a huge avengers fan and always prefered the mutant books. Im actually liking new avengers better than ultimates personally. altho i do dig the hell out of samuel l. fury.
I like The Ultimates but I love the French more. by Regicidal_Maniac	Feb 17th, 2005 11:17:39 PM
I like America too but it's high time your country got the fuck over itself, you're just one of many, you're not THE ONE. I mean it get over yourselves, like right now you're thinking "fuck that Aussie jerk for telling US we're not THE ONE, who does he think he is?" Just chill out a bit and have a deep think about WHAT you think WHY you think it, THEN get back to me. Now that THAT is said I also LOVE The Walking Dead. This series is one of the few on the shelves where I can't wait to read the next issue.
Hey Lynxpro by crackerfarmboy	Feb 17th, 2005 11:35:42 PM
You criticize the French for supplying Saddam nuclear materials in 1981. That's all well and good, but let's not forget that it was the US who gave him chemical and biological weapons in the 1980s. It was the US (Rumsfeld and co. included) who proclaimed Saddam to the "great secularizer in the Middle East". They stated numerous times that they hoped he'd continue to spread his "influence" throughout the region (despite knowing he was a sociopath). It was the US who armed him to the teeth to murder as many Iranians and Kurds as he desired with greater ease and efficiency. So don't be so quick to point fingers my friend.
All things non-Gallic... by Dave_F	Feb 17th, 2005 11:38:33 PM
TO BUZZ: I might just have to pick up that BLACK PANTHER trade. I just re-read the two-parter where the Panther's introduced in the FF and it was some of the best comics I've read all month. Coolest moment: after Panther's fought the FF and they become his honored guests, he pulls back his mask and just lights up a cigarette as he's giving them a tour of his badass Wakandan pad. Hilarious! And Stan put some pretty great dialogue into Ben Grimm's mouth: "There must be a lotta dough in Black Pantherin'!" I'm sure I'll miss that in the all-Kirby material, but for the sheer visual splendor, I think I gotta have it. On a side note, I was hugely impressed with Kirby's depiction of the Wakandans in those old FF issues. Not only do their visuals defy the racial stereotyping of many a Golden and Silver Age comic, but Kirby draws them with a resounding nobility and makes the Panther handsome enough that even the staunchest hetero guy might be heard to say, "That's a sharp-lookin' fella." ***** ABOUT YOUNG AVENGERS: I thought it was a passable, quite readable first issue. Biggest beef (aside from the fact that I couldn't tell if Hulk Jr. was a guy or a chick) is that I just don't like derivative heroes, and well...that's pretty much what the Young Avengers are. Better to introduce some truly original teen characters...you know, like in RUNAWAYS or this week's LIVEWIRES. Really enjoyed LIVEWIRES, by the way. Nice to see some progressive cyberpunky sci-fi instead of the usual superhero sci-fi with its '50s/'60s roots. *** TO RISKEBIZ: No love for Stefano Gaudiano? Da fug?! C'mon, this guy's style is just a hop, skip and a jump from Lark's own and hardly some big departure. Personal taste is personal taste, but I just can't see such a visceral reaction toward a guy working the same tradition as his predecessor. ** TO RENO NEVADA: So...you got some insider info on a post-Bendis DAREDEVIL or are you just pulling an Amazing Karnak? I think I'd dig a Brubaker DAREDEVIL. Unlike Bendis, the dude can write action. ** TO IRULEALL: You wrote: "Can't we all agree Runaways is awesome?" The answer is yes. Yes we can. ** TO HOMER SEXUAL: Hey, cut Sharon Carter some slack! Variety's the spice of life and I suspect she and Cap will just be having a fling at best, a little something to ease the tension. You know, a "debriefing." ** TO DARTH KAL-EL: Both the GRIMJACK trade and the new GRIMJACK book came out two weeks back. My bad for not reviewing them earlier. I meant to, but I ended up spending days and days with the CAP review to insure maximum damage to this TalkBack. Mission acomplished! * TO AMBUSH BUG: Glad you dug WALKING DEAD, man. Now if I can just get you to read some manga from Junji Ito, my sequential art horror proselytizing will be complete. Partake of the delicious raisins, my friend...partake! Oh yeah, and good call on Greg Tocchini channeling Gene Colan in CAP/FALCON. I noticed the same quality when he was drawing THOR: SON OF ASGARD. The downside? The writing on that sucked too. Marvel's gotta hook this dude up with someone who can tell a damn story. *** IN CLOSING, A MESSAGE TO EVERYONE: buy the new RUNAWAYS this week. It will make you happy.
In agreeance by IRuleAll	Feb 18th, 2005 12:18:16 AM
Wow has a lot of stuff been posted since I last checked in. Has anyone else noticed more and more political posts lately? Like every week some book riles people up somehow, whether a throwaway comment by Cap or a panel showing Bush with deveil horns or a halo or whateverthehell one reads into these things. I like reading some political debates because as someone leaning libertarian I often see both points, but this shit is getting ridonkulous. You know what? Comics kick ass. Runaways kicks ass. I ordered 30 more this week in the shop I manage because I believe in it so much. And that Wolverine kicked ass. Yeah, the dead mutant wasn't that big of a character, but it was still an awesome wrapup. Let's let the hate out, comic love in, join groups.yahoo.group/theaholeint hewall (that goes to you actual @$$holes as well) and please Voice O and Seethrough...admit you want to make out with each other...admit it, beeyotches! Lates.
Damn you , I had to read this Captain America issue by Fantomex	Feb 18th, 2005 12:34:25 AM
Like I said, I'm all for butchering the english language, but using the word "stupider" to call someone stupid was just too good for me to pass up. Buzz there is no reason to get defensive about your vocab or your recall of the Hulk, I tried to forget that movie too. The plane correction wasn't meant as a slight towards you, but you're forgiven for taking it as such in this TB climate. And the fact that the Hulk is a murderer and that Pym really is a freaking pyscho just proves my point that not only is this really fun crap, but its wonderful crap thats finally caught up with the rest of pop culture. You realize that pyscho killer movies are a big draw right? The Ultimates is Hollywood-turned-comic-101. Theres no undertones in the Ultimate Hulk character about challenging authority. This isn't that comic. I was so scared we were going to get a 6-issue-long "Trial of the Hulk" as Millar tries to say something about celebrity justice and the mass media. Anyway I'm getting sidetracked, the problem is everyone is getting caught up on whether or not Millars/Brubakers politics are right or wrong, when the focus really should be on the execution of those politics in the comic. I love Captain America when its political, I think thats really the only time the character ever works (I actually LIKED the last Captain America series, and would have loved to see that story continued) but Brubakers execution was lousy, and worse, it was lazy. You don't make a political point in comics by having Captain America give an out-of-character diatribe that isn't even remotely historically accurate. Hey, I hate how America is pissing off the French just to score points domistically. Its not just embarassing us abroad, its simply dangerous right now to play politics with our allies. And what REALLY pisses me off is everyone trying to downplay the French as our allies for the last 200+ years. Sure they've sometimes been useless, but at least they've been there. We're basically sending the message "Don't ally with America, cause we could turn around and bite you as soon as you disagree with us." And I think its the perfect thing to bring up in a Captain America comic. But Brubaker tried to take a cheap shot that just came off wrong. You can't just showhorn a little story about how great the french are in a story about Cosmic Cubes and Flying Cars. Someone teach the guy the meaning of the word "subtle". You may not like Ultimate Cap insulting the French, but the fact is that line fits Captain America perfectly. And if you think World War II vets (or ANY vets) hating the French is a "stereotype", I suggest you climb down from the ivory tower and actually talk to a few. I guess I'm not really being fair because Millar's line wasn't the LEAST bit subtle, but I think he was trying to be funny more than make any kind of political point, unlike Brubaker. IN CONCLUSION, I never judge a comic (or movie, or TV show) based on politics, only on execution. I always laughed at Conservatives who tried to rag on the West Wing, and I don't want to be one of those people.
Shanna redux by Fantomex	Feb 18th, 2005 12:38:10 AM
One last thing, those 20 or so Shanna comics that were sitting on the shelf at my local comic store last week? There all still there. Yeah, maybe he sold ALL of them and had to order 20 more.
Voice O. Reason by lynxpro	Feb 18th, 2005 12:46:34 AM
Funny how you claim your old professors would've flunked me. My piece of paper was from a UC with a 3.5 versus your apparent Sally Struthers quality education in history. Just because the French were on the "winning side" of WWI doesn't mean they won the war. Again, you fail to see the point that the Germans were heavily dug into FRENCH territory at the end of WWI. The Germans didn't lose the war; they ended it thinking that America would keep the Allies fair at the negotiation table, a sentiment the French had no interest in keeping. Grasp that and you might actually understand the subject of history more clearly, and more factual. Here's a French word for you, "imbecile."
crackerfarmboy by lynxpro	Feb 18th, 2005 01:00:39 AM
Yep, the CIA aided Saddam in his war against Iran (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). Washington didn't like the Islamic Republic of Iran (and still doesn't) and wanted to see Saddam wipe them out. That's a little different than actually supporting Saddam taking over the entire Persian (ahem, Arabian) Gulf. Supposedly the CIA gave Saddam chemical weapons as well as satellite imagery and information on how to best use the chemical weapons against the Iranian forces. That's a little bit different than France giving Saddam nuclear technology which led to the Israelis destroying Saddam's nuke plant in 1981. If Israel thought Saddam posed such a threat with the chemical arsenal supposedly given to him by the U.S., don't you think the Israelis would've destroyed them too? The US also never supported Saddam using chemical weapons on the Kurds. The US (as well as the rest of NATO) is in a precarious situation where it would like to help the Kurds but in doing so angers a fellow NATO member named Turkey who wishes to see the Kurds kept in their place and not able to create a viable homeland for theirselves out of chunks of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey (similar to the situation the Basques face too). You didn't mention how Saddam tried to get contracts with German gas companies in order to learn all the old Nazi knowledge on the use of gas. You also didn't mention how Kuwait and Saudi Arabia financed Saddam's war against Iran either in the effort to squash revolutioanry Shi'ite Islam before it could spread beyond Iran's borders. Yet both of those countries found out a few short years later what it meant to be on Saddam's enemies list and bankrolled America's (and its coalition) efforts to defend Saudi Arabia and expell Saddam from Kuwait. To equate Saddam as a former American client state is completely incorrect because Saddam had traditionally been a client state of the Soviet Union (along with French influence too). Interesting how both of those nations led the opposition to the overthrow of Saddam now isn't it?
Love the new look! by bizarromark	Feb 18th, 2005 07:57:30 AM
Hey....pretty nifty new look to this creaky old website. The new font is much easier on the eyes. Congrats to Harry for finally getting around to an upgrade. About time!
Kirby's Black Panther by bizarromark	Feb 18th, 2005 09:52:42 AM
Hey Dave, hilarious observations on the first meeting of T'challa and the F.F. It's been awhile since I've read my F.F. Marvel Masterworks reprints, and the part with T'Challa lighting up the cig was priceless. Smoking was simply so ubiqutious in that era that it just didn't seem to occur to Stan and Jack that someone who'd developed his body to the peak of human perfection wouldn't want to destroy his lungs with cigarettes. Reminds me of those old "I Love Lucy" episodes where characters will just light up a heater in mid conversation. Wakanda itself was certainly a wonder to beyold, made even better by the fact that the portrayal of the Wakandan nation was such a wonderful message of dignity and self-reliance. Granted, the whole Vibranium metal angle gave it a distinct sci-fi feel....but the fact that they created, maintained and defended their nation on their own was a timely, inspiring storyline for the Civil Rights era...and beyond. Making T'challa part of a foreign culture also spared us from the wince-inducing "jive talkin'" inflicted upon most of the "state side" black heroes in the years to come...making it all the more possible for the reader to recognize T'challa not as some kind of "Hey, Turkey!" minstrel show character, but as a dignified equal of the Fantastic Four.
I think it's premature to say Millar doesn't understand Hulk, Bu by rev_skarekroe	Feb 18th, 2005 10:10:12 AM
I didn't care for Ultimate Hulk either, but I just need to keep in mind he's not supposed to be exactly like 616 Hulk. I understand Millar's writing a 616 Hulk mini later in the year, so I guess we'll see his real angle on the character then.
Voicebox 5: A better analogy by bizarromark	Feb 18th, 2005 10:46:52 AM
No offence, voicebox...but the NAMBLA analogy isn't the most apt. Instead, how about if a right-leaning writer (we're obviously in fantasy-land here) had Cap parroting the administration's line about the rationale for invading Iraq? Judging from comments in some of Jon Q's previous posts, I don't think he and the rest of my left-leaning fellow fans would appreciate that....at all. The battle over what Captain America should think and say seems to mirror the current struggle amongst American citizens (and international onlookers) of defining what America is, its role in the world and what it stands for. The task of writing such character SYMBOLIZING America is NOT an enviable one, especially in such a highly-charged political climate. Therefore, special consideration should be given by writers whenever they are tempted to make Captain American their own partisan mouthpiece. It's certainly an easy trap to fall into, since the majority of both creators and readers of comic books seem to be left-leaning (at least the vocal ones), so it's clear that some writers get caught up in the "echo-chamber" and assume that ALL comic book readers share this sort of "default political outlook". However...maybe the day is dawning when an opposing worldview can be introduced to comic books to balance out the left-leaning focus of so many comic book titles.
"Why on earth do you think we should bend over backwards to be n by bizarromark	Feb 18th, 2005 11:02:28 AM
Uh.....cuz Captain America (Ed Brubaker) said so?
Meanwhile our "ally" France is refusing to classify Hezbollah as by the G-man	Feb 18th, 2005 11:10:30 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/s pages/540242.html "the French are well-aware of the terrorist element of the Hezbollah, but they are now focusing their efforts on the success of the upcoming Lebanese elections so they don't want to strain relations with the group, which is running as a political party in the upcoming vote."
"But what if the Millar or Brubaker went in a direction that you by JonQuixote	Feb 18th, 2005 11:36:43 AM
I'm a pretty liberal guy, but I always hate when Iron Man is written as a Liberal. That seems like a writer's fantasy to me - as though a gun-making, porche-driving, top tax bracket guy couldn't be a hero without disavowing all those things on some level. I like him much better when he's acting on an extremely pragmatic, individualistic level - like when he appropriated AIM technology and mind-wiped his secret identity from the entire world. That makes him far more interesting. I also suspect that there's a very good chance that Superman is pro-life. Agendas are one thing but they cannot supercede character or story, regardless of how I agree with them (note my many rants against Ney Reiber's preachy MK CAPTAIN AMERICA). As for the specific example you provided, I think that Cap has had sufficient experience with crooked, criminal or even just inept government officials - President #1, The Commission, The Red Skull as Secretary of State - to develop a healthy distrust. I'm pretty sure he'd be the first to suspect the hand of Arnim Zola in this one.
And if you don't like the word 'bigot' by JonQuixote	Feb 18th, 2005 11:38:00 AM
Perhaps it's time to stop throwing invective at an ethnic group.
"Just because the French were on the 'winning side' of WWI doesn by Voice O. Reason	Feb 18th, 2005 11:49:24 AM
I'm glad you paid all that money to go to UC, but you'd have been better off using some of it to buy a dictionary.
I'm not saying I would read it by Fantomex	Feb 18th, 2005 11:49:28 AM
The execution has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy the comic. I don't blame conservatives who don't watch West Wing, but they embarass themselves when they try to say the show is poorly scripted. I think a Captain America who supports the invasion of Iraq would be interesting, and I think it could be executed well, but if its a 3 page lecture in an otherwise interesting story that has NOTHING to do with Iraq, well I'd think its just as stupid the latest issue. As for you voicebox5, your guilty of the same thing Brubaker is doing. His current feelings towards France cause him to adopt a revisionist history about the French Resistance in WW2. You're current feelings towards France cause you to adopt a revisionist history where the French haven't been our ally for more than 200 years. When you let your politics cloud reality, no one can take you seroiusly.
Since you guys have your own section now, Why don't you Post COM by George Newman	Feb 18th, 2005 12:18:29 PM

Lynxpro by crackerfarmboy	Feb 18th, 2005 12:36:30 PM
I'm not arguing that Saddam was not a bad guy. I'm merely demonstrating that the US openly funded, armed, provided miltary intelligence, supported, backed, and encouraged his agression against Iran and the Kurds. Oh, and if the US was only using him for revenge against Iran, why is it that the US also sold Iran weapons during the same war? Iran-Contra ring a bell? The US also sold Iran arms through Israel. Once again it's easy to point at the French and claim they've been "irresponsible", but it's sadly just as easy to point at the US and say the exact same thing. There are many examples of atrocious and head scratching US foreign policy in recent years, especiallyin the Middle East/Muslim nations.
People on both sides of this fascinating debate make some good p by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 18th, 2005 01:10:16 PM
But it will all mean nothing when the zombie apocalypse comes. Of course, then we'll probably have one side saying the "undead scourge" must be destroyed, and the other saying that the "reanimated americans" should be given a chance to reeducate and assimilate into society. Then we'll get into the whole debate over "reanimation rights" (does everyone have the right to rise from the dead?) and the question of "living/undead marriage" will be an especially hot-button topic. Of course, if the zombies--I mean undead americans--are legally dead, that raises many issues such as workplace rights, the right to own propery, the rights of lenders to restition owed to them by the recently deceased; the list goes on. Nevermind. I suppose the zombie apocalypse will be a mere hiccup in the arena of public debate.
Of course by "restition" I mean "restitution" by Fuzzyjefe	Feb 18th, 2005 01:14:05 PM
I try so hard dammit. I really do.
Crackerfarmboy by lynxpro	Feb 18th, 2005 01:43:11 PM
Yep, the Reagan Administration (either officially or Ollie North going "off the farm") sold weaponry to Iran in an attempt to secure the release of hostages. The sales weren't new technologies, they were replacement parts for aging aircraft such as the American F4j fighter that made up the bulk of the Iranian Air Force that had been purchased during the reign of the U.S. friendly Shah (King) of Iran. That's a little different than the French selling Saddam Exocet missiles, Russia equipping him with SCUDs, or the Chinese selling him Silkworm missiles. I seem to recall a disgruntled Iraqi pilot firing a missile at an American naval vessel over it too (his brother had been recently killed by the Iranians and he blamed the U.S. and I don't recall him being officially punished by Saddam over it either). You might recall that the U.S. State Department at times allowed American farmers to sell grain to the Soviets throughout the entire Cold War all the while we were in a global competition with them over influence. The State Department just allowed American farmers to sell certain products to Cuba even though we maintain an official trade embargo against the Castro Regime too. Things like that are not uncommon alt

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