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Elle Woods Reviews RETURN OF THE KING!!

woah! by YappysDogTreats	Dec 1st, 2003 04:13:31 AM
this movie is got that real liver and tuna taste....with just a hint of cheese
whoops by YappysDogTreats	Dec 1st, 2003 04:18:16 AM
you know i always hated the people who wrote "FIRST" in these talk backs, and now here i am writing the lamest, most nonsensical thing that pops into my head just to be the first post...and i didn't even use propper grammar! I apologize to all humanity for the travesty i have committed. also ROTK will be grand!
Return Of The King by BrentJones	Dec 1st, 2003 04:20:39 AM
I think the extended version will cover all the missing bases, aster all no-one would want a four hour finale in the theatres!
why why why why by WorstPoochieEver	Dec 1st, 2003 04:24:18 AM
why must I read these spoilers when I know I don't want to spoil the movie? I've read the books and all, so the biggest uncertainty is not so much how it ends but what makes it and what doesn't. Anyway, sounds good, but knowing how much better TTT got with the EE, I don't know if I'll be able to feel true closure until November 2004.
Can't wait for the Moriarty review by CarlosTheTackle	Dec 1st, 2003 04:46:42 AM
Methinks it'll be the first honest 'hype-free' review.
So Sam (rather than Frodo) gives another moving performance, and by Elaine	Dec 1st, 2003 04:49:28 AM
Hmmm. Not sure I like that. Still, it's good to get yet another positive review; I'm not giving up hope yet.
Two Towers:Extended Edt by dab	Dec 1st, 2003 05:12:18 AM
Just watched the TTT Extended edition yesterday and am so ready for ROTK. I don't know why new line doesn
Yes but are there Ahem...WereWolves and VAMPIRES??? by Rcamacho2278	Dec 1st, 2003 05:26:25 AM
Juuuuust kidding, this movie will be the final end to a GREAT year in film making, regardless if you bashers hated just about everything that came our. damn monkeys
It remains to be seen if this film will return the series to the by Effigy2002	Dec 1st, 2003 05:48:05 AM
The more I read about RotK, the more I find myself thinking that this wont suffer from the same kind of hairbrained changes Boyens and Jackson made to the original material in The Two Towers. That said, even if RotK really is the return to grace for the series, it will still be forever marred bu the disaster of TTT. Thats evident right now, with the deletion of Sauraman in the theatrical version of RotK. Still, 2 out of 3 isnt a bad score... but as I say, it remains to be seen if Boyens hasnt screwed things up again... if rumors that Aaragorn and Sauron have a swordfight are true, I will despise this film. And Boyens will make my list. That is all. For now.
Gimli is great comic relief? Wonderful. by St.Buggering	Dec 1st, 2003 05:51:01 AM
That was one of my prime gripe points about the Two Towers: The Jar-Jarring of Gimli. It was annoying, and I was hoping we wouldn't see more of it. Apparently, I hoped in vain. I'm sure it won't ruin the movie for me, but still...ew.
Yeah... by Effigy2002	Dec 1st, 2003 06:04:43 AM
... thats the kind of hair brained change I was talking about. There are some that say that Gimili already was comic relief but he was no more comic relief than any other character at any given time. He made a joke now and then, but Gimili in the book was more about the brave fighting warrior, the friendship he developed with Legolas (a parable against racism)... it was never so bad that book Gimili would yell "NOT THE BEARD" or where the text would basically scream, as the movie so very often did, HAHAHAHA... GIMILI IS INHERENTLY FUNNY BECAUSE HES SHORT! HAHAHAHAHA. Anyway... heres hoping the Gimili as comic relief wont be played as overtly this time, and come Boxing Day, we'll know for sure.
Just as I feared! Juggling problems!! Jackson can make a bad fil by TheGinger Twit	Dec 1st, 2003 06:07:08 AM

comic shots in LOTR by Amy Chasing	Dec 1st, 2003 06:07:24 AM
*SPOILERS IN THIS POST* When Elle Woods writes "the fall of the evil eye almost seems comic" I have to wonder if this is the funny bit for ROTK. You know, like Fellowship had Bilbo's face "going Gollum" when he sees the Ring on Frodo in Rivendell - some of the audience laughed. And in Two Towers you have the Uruk-Hai carrying the "Olympic torch" to ignite Saruman's homemade explosives at Helm's Deep - couldn't help but overhear some of the audience humming the Chariots Of Fire theme. These shots, while not intentionally funny, are classic cringe moments in the films - and to me make them all that more accessible because you know they're not intending these films to be "masterpieces" but just the best that they can do, and they are, warts and all. Not perfect, but beautiful and wonderful efforts in film-making. A real human endeavour. I salute them. Also IMHO if Eowyn & Faramir are standing next to eachother at the end - it's a nod to those who've read the books, just like all the other nods they've done without explaining them - no problems there and no plot hole as far as the film is concerned. As long as the movie keeps its story together, then it's a good story in it's own right. And I'd think since the Ring is the embodiment of Sauron's power, and it's the reason for the whole Quest, then it's destruction is what the ending has to be all about. Saruman, while a main character and I look forward to his (unfortunately) cut scenes, was just a puppet of Sauron's and as Westley would say "deserves a long life, along with his cowardice" - and he'll get it under the watchful guard of the Ents - so that's not too bad either. Thought it'd be nice if they show his end in the epilogue.
Admission of fault in LOTR from aicn staffer by Indiana Clones	Dec 1st, 2003 06:31:07 AM
It's about fucking time. It's the lovingly-rendered intricately detailed world of wizards, dragons and goblins that people are falling in love with here, not the story, filmmaking skill, dialogue or acting. Jackson is a lousy filmmaker who is in way over his head on a project like this.
Re: romance by Saracene	Dec 1st, 2003 06:37:23 AM
I'm probably very un-romantic but I'm sort of glad that PJ left out Faramir/Eowyn. Whatever other merits the book has credible romance is not its strong point; I thought that the way both characters just soo conveniently fall for each other out of a blue was incredibly contrived. If they can't afford to flesh it out properly in the film it's better to leave it out altogether.
Not as good as... by HumanDog	Dec 1st, 2003 06:56:33 AM
The Flight of Bernard, only on www.human-dog.com. Share it with your friends this holiday season.
After such a disappointing year... by ouagadougou	Dec 1st, 2003 07:02:23 AM
...with so many films, especially my beloved Matrix, turning out to be overblown CGI-fests... all "mechanical" rather than emotive... my last hope is for ROTK to be a quality story. If it has a few faults, that's fine. Just please, please don't make me feel like I've watched someone else playing a video game.
So, is it a major disappointment ala' The Matric sequels, a mast by Atticus Finch	Dec 1st, 2003 07:38:42 AM
From Mori's tone, it sounds like somewhere in between. Oh well, it can't suck as bad as the two Shitrix sequels did!
At last, a non-plant review by orson	Dec 1st, 2003 08:01:11 AM
Now this sounds more like it - the previous reviews were too obviously taken straight from the nurturing environment of a greenhouse. NOTE TO PLANTS: Real reviewers talk about their likes AND their DISLIKES in the movie, and are quite specific about it. ** For specific plot details and massive spoilers, there's a thread on tolkienonline by a guy called "Marty" who is spilling all the beans. There are clearly some omissions in the movie which are going to disappoint a lot of people. For example: SPOILERS AHEAD** (1) The Mouth of Sauron scene just doesn't happen (apparently it was getting in the way of a sub-plot involving PJ's kids who play Gondorian children kidnapped by vicious orcs and yet still look as if they're having a fun day on daddy's film set). That was a joke by the way - just in case! (2) Denethor has no palantir, so is just a bad egg from the start - rather than a noble figure who meddled with the enemy's arts and fell into madness. (3) There is now NO confrontaton between Gandalf and the Witchking - despite what we saw in the earlier preview. But there ARE of course, loads of new jokes from Gimli and a new set of blank and vacant stares from Legolas...
Bitch, whine, I heard people laugh, this review is not a review by CellarDoor	Dec 1st, 2003 08:08:00 AM
Wah, wah, fucking wah. I'm a massive LOTR fan and I'm not overly happy about some of the characters not having their tales wrapped properly but I'll do exactly what I did for TTT. Catch a 'dumb' version of the film in the cinema, have my spine mashed by loud music and my eyes seared by the imagery and then go home and wait for the 'true' version of the movie to be released on dvd. Most of you scat-masters can sit-out this little treat and watch Revoulutions. That'll learn ya!
"Yes but are there Ahem...WereWolves" by Wyrdy the Gerbil	Dec 1st, 2003 08:20:57 AM
Well there is a Werebear in the book will that do you ...
How the fuck can you complain about Bilbo's "gollum" moment in R by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 08:58:51 AM
If people are laughing it's only because they're twits using it as a defense mechanism. "if rumors that Aaragorn and Sauron have a swordfight are true, I will despise this film" Man, you must have a pretty crappy source of rumors, supposedly Sauron doesn't even appear in a form other than the eye.
My take on PJ's Gimli by Southpaw Samurai	Dec 1st, 2003 09:09:08 AM
I am not a defender of the changes they've done for the movies. I understand most, but have issues with a number (primarily when things that are true to the book are removed so there's more time for newly created filler). That said, however, I've come to accept and understand what PJ & Co. did to Gimli. Gimli in the books doesn't really have much of a personality. Die hards may jump on this statement, but if you were to look at the work with clean eyes again and not have the personalities you have bestowed upon them, you'll find that both Legolas and Gimli are just slightly better than token characters (after all, the story is primarily focused on men and hobbits). So in trying to get more out of the characters, PJ & Co. probably looked at the one Tolkien story that has dwarves with personality: The Hobbit. Here the dwarfs are goofy, stubborn, complainers, and often not aware that they are smaller than the world around them. So perhaps PJ & Co. just assumed that Gimli would take after his dad and his companions. I do sort of wish Gimli had more moments of dignity to offset the humor a bit, but I can live with it (despite my love of no nonsense dwarves).
...the fuck? by Darth Sticky	Dec 1st, 2003 09:24:30 AM
Moriarty, please please please please don't say ROTK is awful. Please don't say you didn't like it because it doesn't follow the books. Is it good in itself? Does it stand alone? Is the denouement satisfying? I'm nervous as hell now! I considered myself a Matrix fan until I heard it was a mediochre BS romp in Revolutions. Please don't say ROTK is awful. Don't even say its mediochre! I swear...I need a trilogy that ROCKS and I'm hoping this is the one.
No, you're not mistaken, Elle by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 09:45:56 AM
These are all changes from the text: 1) Arwen's fate is not in any way tied to the Ring itself - save in the sense that if the Ring is not destroyed, Sauron will win and obviously Aragorn and Arwen (along with everyone else) won't have much of a future together; 2) The Army of the Dead is led by Aragorn to the port city of Pelargir, where they destroy the mighty Corsair army at the havens out of sheer fear, and then are dismissed by Aragorn as having fulfilled their vow - they never go to Minas Tirith in the book; rather, Aragorn leads a great valor of Gondorians out of the coastal fiefs to save the city, now that they are freed from having to fend off the Corsairs; 3) Frodo never dismisses Sam in the book (though he shouts at him a few times). I haven't made my mind up on #3 but the first two seem to be defensible alterations; the Army of the Dead is used in such a way to compress the story in a justifiable way; Arwen won't after all, be able to live as she wants with Aragorn if the Ring isnot detroyed; PJ is obviously just ratcheting up the dramatic tension here.
As with TTT, you can clearly tell that the movie was cut to bear by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 09:50:55 AM
...and it's noticeable. And like TTT, ROTK will be almost a different movie with the extra footage, some of which we know about. We know the Mouth of Sauron was filmed; we know the Houses of Healing were filmed; we know the battle with the Corsairs was filmed (Jackson himself, playing a Corsair, apparently had a two minute battle with a lead character that he cut); we know the "voice of Saruman" was filmed. And Lord knows what else, though some hints seem to suggest possibilities. But the Extended Edition will likely be 4 hours or so, so Jackson was once again forced to observe limitations, even if this one hasd about 20 minutes more actual screen time than the first two films. The wonder is that he did so much with that amount of time.
but is it as tremendous as Daredevil, Mory?? by pevenscrwn	Dec 1st, 2003 09:51:35 AM
like i am going to take the opinion of someone who cried at Daredevil seriously.
I want RotK NOW!!! by mayaV	Dec 1st, 2003 09:53:12 AM
Why do we have to wait!? Damn it! I'm tired of waiting and waiting while others saw it this weekend. Unfair world we live in!
Where did you see it, Oberon? by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 09:54:19 AM

Dooly - what replaces the Scouring? Nothing (spoiler) by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 09:54:49 AM
This is a bit of a spoiler, but there is perhaps 10-15 minutes of movie tops after the Ring is destroyed. So there's isn't anything to replace the Scouring. It's all wrapped up very quickly and briefly as possible - and it's apparent that as with TTT, the most extra footage in the EE will wind up being there. You basically get to see Frodo rescued, the coronation, Arwen and Aragorn together and then a quick flash to Frodo coming back to Bag End; then a glimpse of him completing his book; then he's off to the Grey Havens. All very quickly done.
Arwen attached to the ring? by Goneburger	Dec 1st, 2003 10:00:06 AM
Of course Arwen's fate is attached to the ring, but not directly.. the 3 elven rings will lose their power with the destruction of the One, and their power will be diminished, and the times of the elves will be past, and blah blah blah, but it sounds a bit convoluted to say arwen's fate is attached to the ring...
Deadwood - there are two different kinds of viewers for this fil by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 10:11:09 AM
...as there are with all popular book adaptations. 1) Those who know and love the books (which means more than having read it 20 years ago and barely able to remember Frodo's name); 2) Those who don't and haven't read them. For the former group, of which I count myself a particularly passionate and knowledgable character, your experience of the film is necessarily colored in a way that the casual viewer's is not. You can't help it. You compare every scene of the film to what you know of the book, and notice every difference, every compression, every excission. To be honest this was a bit of a barrier for me when I first saw Fellowship. It was hard for me to get past the constant need to note and despair of every change and simply enjoy the film on its own terms. With TTT I finally got past that; I was prepared for it. The achievement of Peter Jackson is that he has put together films which can please both groups, at least as far as is possible to do. So don't disdain the references to the book lovers; there are a lot of us out here (the books have sold something like 200 million copies), and we make up a big part of the audience. But neither should the casual viewers like you be neglected; the film has to work for you as well, without benefit of knowing how all the loose ends get wrapped up beforehand.
I lament the very environment that generates these films...in va by Stirling Mel	Dec 1st, 2003 12:01:17 PM
After the open compromises that constitute the LOTR films (as well as the Matrix finale), and after realizing that the so-called "extended editions," were they the theatrical versions, would be just as wholly unsatisfying, I realized that my gripe is not with Jackson, Boyens, Walsh or any of the "producers." My beef has been, and will be, with the studio system that forces a certain dubming-down of artistic work for immediate mass consumption. There's no sense of time, and its relationship to growing and kowing in the studio film process, and this hurts legacy works like LOTR. I mean, even the most film-cycle-embracing among us MUST concede that a process that leads/forces/directs/cajoles/b ribes filmmakers to do less than what they think artistically to appeal to some tyranny of the majority (or the PERCEPTION thereof, which is more important a concept and, I think, in play here) is at a minimum societally unhealthy...unless you like the subtle chains and ministrations of a passive, creeping fascism... I hate that these works were not, could not, have been manifested in their truest spirit. Its the type of dyanmic that leads to funny Gimli, and it betrays us all. Pray for the independence and freedom of art and the artist; if you lose that, its one of the very FIRST indicators that you've lost your societal way.
Eowyn/Faramir at the HoH will definately be on the EE by RawShark	Dec 1st, 2003 12:20:27 PM
As well as the VoS, and the MoS.
Hey Johnny Suede, is your head full of processed cow-hide or wh by Snaga-ape	Dec 1st, 2003 12:51:28 PM
You must rank at very top of surface-monkeys who only speak with words of dung. You promulgate mindless
So far peter jackson is the only one to say that this is the bes by jeffallee	Dec 1st, 2003 12:59:04 PM
Well at least everybody is looking forward to the extended edition, but I wanted to look forward to this edition.
Oberon... by mtoast	Dec 1st, 2003 01:36:42 PM
I believe I remember Jackson saying that the films were IDEALLY intended for people who read and loved the book ten or twenty years ago. NOT for people who read it every year. Hving read the book as a teenager almost twenty years ago, I can say that the movies perform valiantly. I have flipped through the books many times over the years. I'm very aware of all the changes, but I'm not a fundamentalist. I think it's the perfect position for enjoying the films. You anticipate and relish them based on your knowledge of the story, but that knowledge doesn't get in the way of the movie. I feel sorry for people so married to the texts. And I don't know what to feel for people who've never read the books. They can't have any real idea of the complexity of the world they visit. I'm amaze by all the TB bitching today though. Look at the crapfest Lucas has been serving of late, and people are complaining about THESE movies? Shit, that's sad.
Theatrical/Extended Madness by DarthCorleone	Dec 1st, 2003 01:39:43 PM
I understand the economic and practical considerations that prevent showing a four-hour film in the theater. I understand why it must be done this way. But doesn't anyone else feel slightly compromised by this whole process? It's almost as if I should skip ROTK and wait for the DVD in November. I saw FOTR enough times in the theater that I fell in love with it and simply had to have both the theatrical and extended editions. But the changes were really very substantively inconsequential. However, I feel as if TTT and ROTK are radically different creatures between their incarnations, and it's just too much for me. I don't want to be sitting in the theater for ROTK thinking throughout: "Oh, that'll be resolved in the extended version." Incidentally, TTT extended version was an improvement, but one thing I didn't like was that extra Faramir scene at the end. Before, you had the film ending on a really cool beat: Gollum's talking about this mysterious "she." Faramir's roughing Gollum up before that takes away from that cliffhanger element.
Same/More problems than TTT by AlwaysThere	Dec 1st, 2003 01:53:18 PM
It doesnt sound as good as the crazy fanboys have made it out to be.
Mori's Comment Makes Me Queasy by cabsau	Dec 1st, 2003 01:59:52 PM
"The material didn't quite get the fine tuning it needed?" I'm holding out for Dec. 8th and the rest of your story Mori. But, when I hear a reviewer start making excuses for a film, it has been because the film is not what it should have been. (BTW I truly dislike that you people make excuses for short comings when you are biased towards a filmmaker or subject matter.) Running time and release dates; INDEED! As I understand it, Jackson has been conceptualizing and working on this entire body of film for seven years! He's probably had more time, money and free reign in making these films than any filmmaker with a project of this scale, in history. This last film should be a masterpiece of filmmaking. I, like many others will already be walking in with heart tinted by disappointment that, in favor of embellishment, important parts of the beloved novels will be absent from the story told on film. Oh and as for the "Extended Edition DVD" rant, while I am thankful for and truly love them, I feel that it is the released theatrical versions that are considered THE MOVIE. Man oh man. Granted my love for film has not become realized until later in life than many people here, but I don't think I have ever had so much anticipation for films. It's an experience my loved ones and I relish. But, if this last film, judged by the merit of it as an individual work, holds disappointment, hold us back for our scorn. I am sorry that from millions of fans, Peter Jackson has this burden to bear. But, with the money and time he's had...I hope he pulled it off. There is no excuse.
Mori's Comment Makes Me Queasy by cabsau	Dec 1st, 2003 02:03:27 PM
"The material didn't quite get the fine tuning it needed?" I'm holding out for Dec. 8th and the rest of your story Mori. But, when I hear a reviewer start making excuses for a film, it has been because the film is not what it should have been. (BTW I truly dislike that you people make excuses for short comings when you are biased towards a filmmaker or subject matter.) Running time and release dates; INDEED! As I understand it, Jackson has been conceptualizing and working on this entire body of film for seven years! He's probably had more time, money and free reign in making these films than any filmmaker with a project of this scale, in history. This last film should be a masterpiece of filmmaking. I, like many others will already be walking in with heart tinted by disappointment that, in favor of embellishment, important parts of the beloved novels will be absent from the story told on film. Oh and as for the "Extended Edition DVD" rant, while I am thankful for and truly love them, I feel that it is the released theatrical versions that are considered THE MOVIE. Man oh man. Granted my love for film has not become realized until later in life than many people here, but I don't think I have ever had so much anticipation for films. It's an experience my loved ones and I relish. But, if this last film, judged by the merit of it as an individual work, holds disappointment, hold us back for our scorn. I am sorry that from millions of fans, Peter Jackson has this burden to bear. But, with the money and time he's had...I hope he pulled it off. There is no excuse.
BBC Photos & Smootches to Miami Mofo by JD1866	Dec 1st, 2003 02:19:33 PM
I just finished looking at the photos on the BBC web site taken at the parade held in Wellington. 100,000 folks showed up to enjoy the show and to greet the cast & crew. Here's the link, for those who maybe interested: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ in_depth/photo_gallery/3252746 .stm (remove the space inserted between /in). What a great time to be a Wellingtonite! * Snaga-ape, as usual, you crack this surface monkey up. Keep up the good work! * What's this? The mailman has just delivered a mathom? For me? And not just any old mathom, but a Hanukkah mathom, to me from Miami Mofo. Yes indeed, Miami, your's was the first. An audio cd filled with my favorite LotR passages made with great care and beautifully wrapped. (I even saved the paper). * Movie reviews are all well and good, but I'll try to patiently wait until I see RotK myself before giving in to despair. So far PJ has exceeded my expectations and I really see no reason start second guessing him at this point. I'll just enjoy my anticipation for I will never have this time again. * A great big hello to all the Tailenders (new & old). It's been way too long, mellons.
"So far peter jackson is the only one to say that this is the be by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 02:32:12 PM
Out of all the reviews I've seen so far, the only one that has hinted at RotK not being the best is Mori (and he hasn't written a review, just dropped enigmatic hints). Every other one has either said that RotK is the best or hasn't made that comparison. The reviews have been excellent so far, it's silly to take the small nitpicks (which are mostly cuts from the book) from an otherwise rave review as "evidence" that the movie is full of problems.
MASSIVE SW EPISODE III SCOOP!! YOU NERDS GOTTA SEE READ THIS! by MichaelJackson	Dec 1st, 2003 02:38:11 PM
This is from the force net Peter mayhew talking about Star Wars saying that Episode 1 was the worst of the saga, Episode 2 had good points but also had bad points, and (Episode) 3 would be excellent.
I by Quintus_Arrius	Dec 1st, 2003 02:55:58 PM
You pretty much summed up why this review grated me a so much. I do subscribe to the possibility that you will be best served by watching TTT EE first as I
Spike Rush... by Quintus_Arrius	Dec 1st, 2003 03:03:00 PM
... you are joking... aren
Spike Rush... by Quintus_Arrius	Dec 1st, 2003 03:03:26 PM
... you are joking... aren
Possible reason for not showing Saruman's demise by afa	Dec 1st, 2003 03:06:26 PM
I don't know how many of you have read the book, but Saruman's demise isn't a one scene thing. For example, GadZooks says something about showing Saruman fall from Orthanc. Therein lies the problem. I won't ruin the book for you by telling you how exactly Saruman dies, but suffice it to say, it takes a bit of telling. My guess is, if Peter Jackson were to show it properly, it would take another 20-30 minutes of screen time. Thats the problem. Showing his real demise would take too long, but if Jackson invented another demise (like the aforementioned fall from the tower) he would incur the wrath of fans who would be pissed that he made such a huge change. Its a dilemma. Plus, there's also a marketing reason for it. It encourages people to buy the Extended Edition DVD, which will most likely reveal what became of Saruman! In the end, PJ and company had atleast 3 reasons not to show it, all of which are pretty good ones: not enough time, remaining faithful to the book, and marketing of the DVD.
Are you legally blind?! None of these reviews have said this one by jeffallee	Dec 1st, 2003 03:21:45 PM
I guess you ringers live in your own fantasy world.
Oh dear, it sounds ominous to me. by Fitzcarraldo	Dec 1st, 2003 03:22:27 PM
Sounds like it will be unsatisfying in the theatrical cut. Faramir DOES get off with Eowyn in the film, or at least a scene with them kissing was filmed, I remember it from one of Harry's set reports. What's this about the ending, they make speeches and that's it? The passing of the Elves is one of the things I've been most looking forward to and hoping it wasn't screwed up. Together with the omission of Saruman I have a worrying feeling about this, hope I'm wrong.
Before everyone freaks out about Moriarty's comments... by Mostholy	Dec 1st, 2003 03:39:52 PM
Here's what he to say over at Chud a few days ago about RotK: "It's amazing. It's better than you think it's going to be. It is astonishing. There's a stretch in the middle where PJ hits an emotional crescendo that lasts almost an hour and a half... I don't think I've ever been so worked up in a movie. I didn't know if I should stay seated or jump up or what. It's preposterously great. Take all the emotional power of the first film... and double it. Take the battle intensity of the second one... and double it. Then put them together. I talked to three people at the DGA afterwards... all three are voting Academy members, and all three are guys who are part of major voting blocks. They all said the same thing: 'There is no competition for that. There can't be.' And the crowd... a fairly blase industry crowd... went nuts. They applauded at least eight different scenes." And, Jeffalee, other reviews in other places have said it's the best of the three, although they've also said it is jarring what's been left for the EE at times. I think what Mori means with what he said here is that, while the FotR and TTT edits were mostly just moments that fleshed out the story, RotK edits are plot points we all remember from the book. Disappointing, sure, a bit, but that's why they make the EE DVDs. All I know is...2 weeks!
jeffallee, as I said, most reviews haven't stated which of the t by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 03:43:12 PM
On tolkien online, there is a review saying that RotK was by far the best, also the variagallery review. On here, none have come out and specificially said RotK was the best, but Ong said it was the only one of the three to surpass the book. And the first review said the battles blow away the ones in TTT. If there's a review somewhere that says RotK is inferior to the other two, give us a link.
Wizards, RoTK by MattO	Dec 1st, 2003 04:20:28 PM
Breakdancing wizards refers to the PJ-added wizard battle in foTR, whrere Gandalf is left spinning on his head by Saruman's elemental force. For Al Jaffee above: I've seen about 10 reviews, and about half flat-out say it's the best of the trilogy.
LOTR: ROTK by Shunkeat	Dec 1st, 2003 04:25:25 PM
It would be a real shame if CHRIS LEE died before he evn got to see the climax of career, the scene he most wanted to be in: the parley with Saruman! And it's not the House of Healing that I really want to go see. Forget about Faramir/Eowyn (it was alteast shot it will be in DVD!), but I will go intot he theater to Gollum, Shelob, Pelennor Fields, Denethor, Merry and Pippin kicking orc-butt, blood-thirsty oliphaunts killing, the Dead, Aragorn the King, and the Mordor scenes. The Eowyn love story which will be added anyway mind you, can go.
"KING may be the most problematic of the three films ", oh dear, by the swede	Dec 1st, 2003 04:27:18 PM
Moriaty, please give us your review now! The deadline can wait(he, he). Despite my Peter Jackson thrashing before because of the Sarumansituation, I desparetely hope and believe that this film is a pasterpiece. Well, Moriaty, is it???
Correct me if I'm wrong, but.. by CatoTheCensor	Dec 1st, 2003 04:30:34 PM
SPOILER for non book readers: ...wait, the army of the dead does NOT accompany Aragorn to Pelennor. The army of the dead takes out the corsairs of Umbar, allowiung Aragorn and company to sail to the battle on the Corsair ships. Aragorn shows up at Pelennor with a great host of Dunedain and other men, and Elrond's sons. So in the film the Army of the Dead come with Aragorn to Pelennor?
mtoast and Deadwood: I love these movies (by way of clarificatio by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 04:30:42 PM
...and I did not mean to imply otherwise. In fact I dare say that, las with Moriarty, FOTR (esp. the Extended Edition) makes my All-Time Top Ten List as well. Jackson's accomplishments are staggering: he has taken a much beloved, enormously popular - but essentially unfilmable - work and found a way to translate it into a much beloved, enormously popular set of films, and has even done so in way remarkably faithful to the books. These movies work as movies, and do so on every level. They are enormously enjoyable regardless what perpective the viewer has (unless they simply hate fantasy); it's just that your perspective will change your enjoyment in different ways. Once I got past my initial disorientation I was able to enjoy the films enormously on their own terms - which was Michael Martinez's reaction as well. All but the most obtuse Tolkien purists should and can recognize just how faithful Jackson has been to the books and how successfully he and his writers translated so much of such a complex and long written epic tale to one which can be grasped and loved by a casual movie viewer. Nearly all of his choices for cuts and modifications and compressions are not only defensible but right, or at least the very best choices given the constraints he operated under. And even the one or two odd bits that might bother me are easily forgivable for the unalloyed pleasure of finally seeing realized hobbits just as I imagined them, Aragorn and Gandalf better than I imagined them, achingly perfect visions of Rivendell and Lorien, to hear the Song of the Entwives, to see Bag End in all its perfect and luscious glory, to see the perfectly realized power of the confrontation of Eowyn and the Witch King - and so on. Beyond that my only real gripe is certainly one shared by Jackson himself: that studio and distributor and time constraints did not allow him to simply release the Extended Editions of each film as the theatrical ones. Fellowship was clearly a better film for its additions; The Two Towers was so improved as to be a different film; and I imagine that ROTK will be similarly improved as well.
The EE's are the real version of the film. Theatrical versions by FluffyUnbound	Dec 1st, 2003 04:35:57 PM
If Lucas' revolution was largely one of making a quantum leap in what special effects would bring to the moviegoing experience, Jackson's is a fundamental shift away from the theatre conceptually. My sound and picture quality is better at home than at any theatre I have easy access to. [Nothing but carved-up little multiplex screens around here.] The LOTR trilogy marks the moment when DVD became more important than the theatres. The studios make more money off of DVD, the DVD's have a longer sales and viewing tail, and the DVD's just plain old INCLUDE MORE STUFF. This was already the case even with the somewhat limited DVD extras of yesteryear, but Jackson brought that to a new level. The LOTR EE DVD's transcend the theatregoing experience entirely. I think we will start to see more and more directors utilizing the broader canvas available on the DVD to great effect, until eventually the theatre release of a film is regarded as something along the lines of a very long trailer.
Don't feel queasy, Cabsau by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 04:47:01 PM
I can't speak for Mory but the chief thing that sticks out at you is that Jackson was faced with the task of sticking not only all of ROTK onscreen but a fair chunk of The Two Towers as well, given the cutting of the last few chapters in both story arcs from the latter book - all in 3 hours 12 minutes. And it just wasn't possible, even with the cutting of a lot of the "back end" denouement (principally the "Scouring of the Shire"). So as with TTT you see a film where you get the sense where nearly everything that was not absolutely essential to the forward movement of the story got whacked, and as a result the story doesn't quite get to breathe like it should at points. It's irrelevant how many years Jackson and company had to prepare for this; the adaptation is going to be tough to manage within that running time constraint if nothing else. I do wish that New Line had "taken the governor off" and let PJ submit as long a movie as he wished and let the chips fall where they may - it's not like an extra 45-60 minutes would keep this baby from clocking $300 million plus at the domestic box office. Instead he got an extra 20 minutes. I guess we should be thankful for that much. Hell: imagine what would have happened if Miramax had taken the film up as the two film project originally projected.
An example of why it is a minor miracle these LOTR films were ev by Superpaddy	Dec 1st, 2003 04:47:34 PM
Some recent figures to consider
A couple more reviews... by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 04:49:46 PM
Both of which say they liked it the best of the three: http://www.exisle.net/mb/index .php?act=ST&f=12&t=10099& http://www.theonering.net/rumo ur_mill/rpg/viewer/ moviediscussion/3FC78EAD0003FF 7A.html (take out the spaces)
So what your saying Fluffy is that Jackson has pioneered a new e by son of stik	Dec 1st, 2003 04:50:45 PM
I don't think he actually started that kind of trend although I'd agree the 'quality' of his movie making skills most definately deserves such a lowly form of release.
Lucas wasn't adopting books that hold sold 200M copies over 50 y by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 04:52:16 PM
...so perhaps it's best to remind yourself that no one is making you buy the EE DVD's; and that Jackson has a tightrope in trying to please both casual fans and those of the book, not to mention the studio's accountants; and finally that every reviewer I have seen has clearly emphasized that the extra footage actually made these movies better, not worse. And if a release makes a better film available, how can any cineaste object to that? Honestly? Were you complaining when the 4 hour version of Das Boot was released? Or the long version of Lawrence of Arabia? Think it through, man; think it through.
Superpaddy by hattori_hanzo	Dec 1st, 2003 04:54:12 PM
best. post. ever.
NEW RULE: Since LotR makes perfect sense without watching the D by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 04:56:00 PM
Nice try, numbnuts. If you're really convinced that the EE is the way to go and you're too cheap to watch it more than once, just skip the theatrical and DVD and watch it for the first time on the extended DVD.
Superpappy is my hero by JimmyTheHand	Dec 1st, 2003 05:12:26 PM
I have been sick and tired of the lame excuses for movies that plague the theatres(thats why I hardly go, unless its LOTR). The reason why I go to see these LOTR movies about 10X each in the theatres is to show my support of movies that actually have the guts to tell a good story and not be hung up on CGI and Bullet-Fucking-Time so much. The best visual effects of these movies are the models because it makes the movies feel real, instead of like a lame video-game. I love video games, but they are there to play, not watch.
please forgive me... by JimmyTheHand	Dec 1st, 2003 05:13:37 PM
I meant Superpaddy.
Superpaddy by Thing-Fish	Dec 1st, 2003 05:26:01 PM
Truer words have rarely been written on these forums. You rule.
another for jeffallee by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 05:29:16 PM
http://www.heraldsun.news.com. au/ common/story_page/ 0,5478,8028043%5E10431,00.html (remove spaces in url)
Re: Stirling by Ye-Baar	Dec 1st, 2003 05:35:17 PM
Point #1-True, studios impose upon a director's freedom, but they also expand it in some ways. For example, how much do you think PJ was worth before these films? Do you think he could've gathered enough money together to do these things on his own in a satisfactory way? Not possible. Yes, studios do stupid things that often squish creativity and originality in an effort to make good on their investment, but I still think that for an epic film such as this one you need studio backing just to get the damn thing made in a way that doesn't come off as unintentionally comical. Independantly financed films afford the director a much greater degree of freedom, and they work very well if you're making a less ambitious film, but here it's just not possible. Poiint #2-I think that New Line gave PJ a fair degree of freedom with these films. I think (and you can debate this if you want, it's just my opinion) that some of the things getting cut now in ROTK are the direct result of PJ dawdling in TTT. Did you see on the Extended Edition where he basically said that the Warg scene was in there because he thought wargs were cool, and that he then realized that it didn't further the sotry at all, so he threw in Aragorn's cliff dive to make it have more of a point? Although I enjoyed the warg scene pretty well, it drives me nuts thinking about what else he could have spent the time on. Anyways, just my 2 cents worth.
Some of you fuckers are so stupid it's a little sad. by FluffyUnbound	Dec 1st, 2003 05:50:47 PM
DVD's are returnable at Blockbuster and Netflix, nimrod. And yes, I think that our idea of what constitutes a "direct to video" release is going to change. There was a time when a "cable only" show meant that the show was BAD, because "real" shows were on the broadcast networks. But, since the products on cable are now the superior products, now it is BROADCAST that is dying, and the stigma has been removed from made for cable shows. If the DVD product continues to be superior, I see no reason why the same effect can't be seen in filmmaking. And boo hoo hoo for that poor consumer you describe. People who sweat the 15 bucks don't get to decide anything in the culture as it is; this will be just one more thing that goes on without them.
Shut the fuck up, you fucking whining nitpickers by The Flashlight	Dec 1st, 2003 05:51:59 PM
For 4 fucking years I've been reading the same fucking nitpicking little fucking gripes from the same collection of pantywaist fags who keep getting banned and re-registering under different names on this site. The same inane, idiotic blather - "PJ sucks, he changed the books, too much Arwen, not enough Arwen, breakdancing wizards, Frodo & Sam are gay, the pacing is bad, the editing is bad, it doesn't flow smoothly, too many endings, TTT was a travesty, blah de blah fuckin blah..." The fact is that 3/4 of you fuckers are studio plants trying to generate bad buzz for ROTK, and the other 1/4 of you are simply clueless fuckers sitting alone in your dorm rooms jerking off to the "Star Wars guy" video and Kirk/Spock slash fan lit. You idiot fuckwit sophomore film majors at Minnesota Polytechnic U. sitting around in your dorm rooms with movie posters on the walls pretending your fucking Dawson hoping that Joey will come crawling through your window - I got news for ya, you better run out and buy the industrial strength bottle of Jergens, you hairless fags. NEWSFLASH! The Star Wars prequels SUCK! Reloaded and Revolutions SUCKED! The Harry Potter films SUCK! The Lord of the Rings is the greatest film achievement to come along in 20 years! Once it's over there will be no more point to going to the cinema! DEAL WITH IT!
Hear Hear Superpaddy! by Skyway Moaters	Dec 1st, 2003 05:56:38 PM
A bit coarse perhaps but it's an observation that is not made nearly often enough: If we keep paying to see dumbed down pablum, and blow-em-up real good schlock, that's what the greedy hollwood assholes are going to keep giving us. In this context bitching about the LOTR films is like throwing a tantrum over the fact that the exquisite bottle of Dom Perignon you just ordered is one degree above it's recommended serving temperature. What do we care ?! Throw the damn baby out with the bath! The money grubbing creeps in hollyweird will just roll out a cuter, smarter, improved model right? * And who was crackin' on the 'tailenders'? Was that on this TB? If so: You obviously know naught of which you speak. SO!... we'll let it go this time. * See how easy that is?
I reckon... by AliceInWonderlnd	Dec 1st, 2003 05:57:12 PM
... that the constraints put on any medium effectively become its conventions. We can talk about artistic freedom but ultimately the film-making process is expensive and of necessity collaborative. There are conventions to making a movie, and genius is in knowing which ones to operate to your advantage and which ones to jettison, and then, confounding expectation, which ones to invert or subvert in meaning. Yes, these films are subject to stringent commercial elements, but the commercial elements are necessary to fully realise the vision of the director. Rather than tear PJ a new one because these films are more inclusive than some would like, I think he should be congratulated for managing within the limits of the conventions and the medium he has to provide something that is accessible to all ages and yet still manages to be infused with a unique sensibility that is recognisably Tolkien. There have been some compromises made, some good, and some bad, but I can't bring myself to despise the system that made this adaptation of LOTR because the limits being derided here have also imposed a certain discipline. Or so sez I.
Props of the day go to... by Darth Thoth	Dec 1st, 2003 06:01:31 PM
Superpaddy. Great post! Way to drop knowledge!
Flashlight by Superpaddy	Dec 1st, 2003 06:17:34 PM
I second all that you say, brother. Nice one. When these LOTR films were being made, I had very little interest - like many people I was caught up in the Star Wars prequels, because I grew up on them, and at the same time I waited FOUR LONG YEARS for the two films which totally eclipsed Lucas' work in terms of disappointment, the Matrix sequels. These were the trilogies on my mind, not LOTR, but today I absolutely applaud what Peter Jackson has done, I am a full convert and say that his is the only trilogy worth talking about. And my conversion is due to the superior craftmanship and storyteling skills of Jackson and the fact that his films have that particular quality which will mark them as classics. A quick question one can ask in considering a film's worth - will people watch it in 50 years time? In the case of LOTR, I think they will. But Star Wars and the Matrixes - not a chance. Sure you can nitpick over this and that in LOTR, but the (very minor) faults practically vanish against the backdrop of the entire film. One other thing - I have seen each of the first two films just once, in the cinema. They were SO good, I didn't want to risk diminishing their effect through repeated viewings. It sounds as if that is what many are doing with their DVD versions - and chance that some of you have eaten too much of your favourite candy, and now feel a bit sick of it? And thanks to ThingFish, JimmytheHand and those others for backing me up on my last post, its good to know we are not alone!
Gaffer hoist a pint votes Superpaddy "The King of This TB!" at t by morGoth	Dec 1st, 2003 06:34:50 PM
Here, here and well said. I wish some of you would get it through your heads that there are plenty (I daresay...the majority) of Tolkien fans that are absolutely smitten by these movies. I think it was ol Painless that laid out the hilarious scenario of Tom Bombadil with four nekkid Hobbits running around that some of you expected would happen (and other hootish thingies he said). Well it didn't and we have received a gift, a gift my friends because it WAS the right combination of the director and the studio that pulled this off. While I think most credit is due to PJ and his vision, I DO thank my lucky stars that Miramax blew it and that PJ ended up at New Line. What I am thrilled about the most isn't that the films were "dumbed down versions" for all the snobby Tolkien fans who wouldn't accept the reality of movie making if it were a truck that ran over them, but instead, PJ has found a way to make the story accessible to everyone. I am so, so happy to talk to people who just love the story based only on the merits of the film. Nope, they may not ever read the books but their heart is filled with the same thing that is mine...a love for a great story that young and old, hip or square get into. I think that's freakin' awesome myself. I'm just giddy at the notion of what these same folk are in for come Dec. 17th. It's like being in on a really, really big surprise 111th birthday party ahead of time! The absolute bestest part is, I get both the books AND a great movie Man, how can RoTK NOT be the greatest of the three story's? I have a really good feeling that I won't be let down in the least in TWO SHORT WEEKS! Awp...THUNK! ** Oh, hullo JD! Long time lady and glad to see you back. Waves to Alice and Moaters from back of bar.
Erm, well, the Gaffer meant Superpaddy's FIRST post! by morGoth	Dec 1st, 2003 06:45:22 PM
Please stop with the Star Wars/Matrix bashing. Honestly folks, give it a rest. Can't you just enjoy one without comparing it to the other? Really, what's the fucking point other than to aggravate other people and start another childish round of "My action figure can beat up your action figure!" bullshit. It drags the artistry of film down to the level of a pathetic nerd fight. Pretty pointless, embarassing to all and, in the end, who really gives a shit? ** Actually Superpaddy, the more I watch
Whoops! by morGoth	Dec 1st, 2003 06:48:53 PM
Hullo to ThingFish too...McBoggum Dan-o-one! Mammy-nun! Where ya been mate? Looks like things are in the home stretch for the LoTR TB's here at AICN. What a way to end...Return of the King! ** Moaters...whutchu talkin' about?
Bill Maher. by Tinuviel70	Dec 1st, 2003 06:56:32 PM
Why are you taking the post of a few and stereotyping the rest? Can
NEW RULE: Bill "Numbnuts" Maher can't get his facts straight. by minderbinder	Dec 1st, 2003 07:07:27 PM
Where did you get that list from? Domestic, TTT is ahead of both Potter movies. And worldwide, it's WAY ahead of spidey and will likely pass Phantom Menace with the extended release. What are you talking about?
Not worldwide, Bill. by FluffyUnbound	Dec 1st, 2003 07:11:33 PM
Titanic can't be touched, but Spiderman is below both LOTR movies. Sorceror's Stone beat FOTR, and TTT beat Chamber of Secrets. Worldwide, LOTR currently has two films in the top ten all-time, and unless we are all greatly surprised, it is about to have 3. Potter also has 2, and Star Wars also has 2. Pick on the Matrix all you want. Since whatever sludge Lucas comes up with almost certainly won't do better than AOTC did, it seems like Star Wars is done. The Matrix certainly is done. But as far as LOTR goes, people did in fact vote with their feet, and they marked their ballots "Bill Maher is a dumbass".
I must concur with my learned brother Superpaddy... by Joe Cool #2	Dec 1st, 2003 07:12:13 PM
Never were truer words spoken. I can only add that it's interesting to see a movie roundly described as a Best Picture front-runner that largely hasn't even been seen yet, and still people find so much to nitpick about. It's clear that many of us have a lot emotionally invested in these films (it's the principal reason we come to sites like this), but I think it's far more important to celebrate the complete triumph that this project represents - not only in terms of the adaptation of a highly revered (to some sacred) work, but also in terms of the fact that these momentous films were crafted with the care and devotion that falls victim to the Hollywood cookie-cutter all too often. Huzzah for PJ! Huzzah! (Complete non sequitur here... also interesting that over a similar release period, "Elf" has a US gross of only $3m less than "Revolutions". Guess you can't fool all the people all the time...) Stay cool.
superpaddy by DocPazuzu	Dec 1st, 2003 07:25:12 PM
I, too, was a complete Star Wars nut at one time. Although I still enjoy them, the LOTR films have delivered what Star Wars hasn't been able to lately -- truly fantastic thrills and an emotional involvement. Don't let the fear of over-saturation deter you. I saw both films in the theater once, and have since watched the Extended Editions multiple times afterwards with no noticable ill effects. If anything, they just get better and better with each viewing. Of course, I also find the EE's to be much superior versions of the films. Do yourself a favor and get those discs ASAP.
Oh boo hoo...now he's "not serious." by Tinuviel70	Dec 1st, 2003 07:29:33 PM
There is only one joke on this Talk Back dear boy, and that is you. First you make to come off serious then when flames you asked for get rather warm, you cry like widdle biddy baby troller. It is somewhat cute like when Huan fall over from licking scrotum too much and pass out from fumery. Ha ha but sidewalks weep at your feet from your light tread! Where are tough trollers who used to take it when I posted on some time back here at Aint-It-Cool-News? Is this what trollers have turned into, whiny little petulant cry-babies? Just drop your pretense and come out of virtual LoTR closet and admit you like LoTR too. We don't mind and you might get a better complexion as a result. Yes, you are also quite wrong with your, how is said in USA, "facts of the matter." I think you are too, oh, chicken poo-poo (I think is term) to admit when you are wrong. Worst of all, your trolling is not funny but your crying and weeping should be saved for when you, like all others in movie house, will be weeping with mixed tears of joy and sorrow when Return of the King is seen before your eyes. You should stick to growing pansies or other things that relate to your nature. Tra-la-la it is time for Tinuviel70 to go sing some more as you are more boring than dirt.
NOW THAT'S A FUCKING REVIEW!!!! by don_gately	Dec 1st, 2003 07:59:19 PM
Well done, girl.
Bill Maher! by CatoTheCensor	Dec 1st, 2003 08:07:52 PM
Pissin out the poison! Man, I'd never thought I'd meet another NBT fan on AICN.
NEW RULE: Stop generalizing in Talkbacks by Oberon	Dec 1st, 2003 08:08:41 PM
...but then I guess that would kill TB's altogether, wouldn't it? Besides adding my plaudits to Superpaddy's fine post, let me just say that I think most of us stake out the same reasonable territory: Being a fan of one trilogy or cult-fave doesn't outlaw you from being a fan of others, and most of us are sick of ripping other franchises to promote the one we're most fond of. The original SW trilogy was sheer brilliance; it made all that has come since possible, and we should all be grateful to Lucas for that. The new trilogy is a mixed bag - let's be fair here - even if it has been a major disappointment in many respects. The Matrix: Great, groundbreaking movie despoiled by disappointing, uneven sequels. Saying that LOTR is the new standard of fantasy excellence shouldn't keep us from holding those other opinions. I wait in line for midnight screenings of Star Wars and LOTR films even if I think the latter are an order of magnitude better, and I know I'm not alone in that. And if you want more of it - more of the quality stuff - do what Paddy says: give your money to the good stuff and avoid the obvious garbage. There are enough mindless teens out there doing that as it is.
Haven't been able to post all day by elanor	Dec 1st, 2003 08:16:39 PM
This is especially for morG and Orson. Well, I didn't get there tonight but tomorrow night looks about 90% for sure. Arrgghhhh! This is agony. Haven't read this tb yet, wanted to get out this message first. Is that Tinuviel70 I see? Whoa!***Will be back later.
DocPazuzu & Deadwood by Superpaddy	Dec 1st, 2003 08:17:19 PM
Thanks Doc - I should have added that the extended versions of FOTR & TTT are being released in cinemas this month and I will be at both! And I will eventually get the definitive boxed DVD set, though not until I have a decent home system that does it justice. Perhaps more importantly, just as I hope that Master & Commander will encourage people to read Patrick O'Brian's wonderful books, so Jackson's trilogy has inspired me to read Tolkien, something I never saw myself doing. To Deadwood, my friend I couldn't agree more re: what you said about focus groups - they're evil. A few people have mentioned Titanic - to me what made that such a great movie, despite its hokey dialogue, was the fact that behind the entire project was one man, Cameron. It was HIS film we got to see; it wasn't put assembled by a committee, and then altered to suit the limited taste of the preview audience from Incestville, NA. LOTR is the same, Jackson controlled the whole thing. And so while Titanic and LOTR do have their failings, somehow we the viewers sense that these men really gave a shit about what they were doing. I know it is a cliche, but their passion shines through all of the sfx and spectacle and gives their films an added depth, and that is why something so blatantly cynical as Pearl Harbor felt as fake as it did - it had no goddam heart.
Supperpaddy... by Quintus_Arrius	Dec 1st, 2003 08:32:15 PM
... take Pazuzu
somwhere over the rainbow by pipergates	Dec 1st, 2003 08:37:13 PM
this from bbc: Hobbit film Jackson said he was looking forward "to becoming a New Zealand film-maker again" after his next project, a re-make of King Kong. He also said he would be "keen" to make a film of Tolkien's The Hobbit - but he had not been asked. "I'm obviously busy for the next couple of years with King Kong," he said. Lord of the Rings executive producer Mark Ordesky, chief operating officer of film studio New Line, told a press conference: "There could be a movie about The Hobbit."
Spike Rush is a FUCKING LOSER, LOTR IS 10,000 times better than by BladeRULES	Dec 1st, 2003 09:04:23 PM
Spike Rush, you must be still sucking on your mama's titty, because those shitty SW prequels are so fucking lame, that even the stars are embarrassed by them. I love the ORIGINAL SW trilogy, but the LOTR trilogy, kicks the living shit out of those fucking prequels both box office and oscar wise. Some day you'll stop sucking on your mama's titty and realize that, until then EAT A DICK MORON!
"Um by Indiana Clones	Dec 1st, 2003 09:09:10 PM
Because of the part of my post that you conveniently chose not to read. Duuuuhhhh!
Do we really need reviews of ROTK? by Lost Skeleton	Dec 1st, 2003 09:19:26 PM
I mean...everyone on fucking earth knew this thing was going to be good. I, for one, am rooting for ROTK to take home that Oscar. It sounds like its a lock, especially with its only competition coming from Last Samarui, Master & Commander and/or Mystic River ( I would also mention Whale Rider- probably a lock for best foreign film and 21 Grams as dark horse nominations). Look I am a Matrix fan, but I am also a film fan first and I recognize good movies when I see them and Peter Jackson did knock the ball out the park with the LOTR triology. I hope someone associated with this flick wins a "major" Oscar in February. Spidey 2 7/4/04
TTT EE by John Anderton	Dec 1st, 2003 10:13:39 PM
Only a Tolkein WANK-BOY would believe TTT EE is a better film than TTT TE. ==> FACT
Guss, I wish all posts could be like yours. by Devil'sOwn	Dec 1st, 2003 10:24:22 PM
Fair. Concise. Positive. Nope, never fly here. Conflict is in our nature. I have accepted it's a difficult prospect for any number of human beings to agree on something. But this weird compulsion to compare franchises mystifies me. The only thing LotR, Star Wars, and The Matrix have in common are callow heroes with wise mentors who undergo great ordeals to attain spiritual strength. The SW prequels are flawed, but c'mon. It's Lucas' universe, these movies are what they are: Old-fashioned Saturday matinee adventure. Lest you forget, the originals weren't exactly perfect, yet they were a cultural phenomenon anyway. If you're too damn jaded to appreciate that nowadays, then by all means, pursue something else and save time and energy slagging these movies. It's true, the Matrix sequels fell short of everyone's expectations, but if you went to see 'em with nothing more in mind than to see some sci-fu, they fit the bill. Lastly, the Rings saga is arguably the most successful, on all levels that count, "franchise" ever made. It's not for everybody. If you are adverse to it, that's just the way it is. You're entitled to a dissenting opinion, although how much of it is actually you, and not a badass poser stance is debatable. Nobody can possibly hate, well, damn near everything that much, can they? But trolls who incessantly come here with inflamatory posts? I know you don't care, but you just make your pathetic ignorance and longing for attention that much more blatantly obvious.
You should be flattered that Tinuviel70 thinks you are funny IIa by Tinuviel70	Dec 1st, 2003 10:33:02 PM
But father warned that I should not mock the afflicted. Or would perhaps name is Bill Maher? He is now flattered because I use his name. Ha, ha I do no recall any of your prior trolling names because you do not stand out. Mercier, DMFC and Eternal were notable trollers that I remember. Especially Mr. Mercier as he had wit abounding and original routines. You are, as is said, wannabe. I think maybe I understand your mental problem. Since you do not notice that I am not a male then it must be due to your only sexual contact being from dates with rubber women who still do not speak to you or cry out in passion. Escaping air noise is not something that would count. If only you would step from behind posters of Arwen Undomiel and Elijah Wood Frodo Baggins and admit that you write worshipping fanboy mail to Mr. Ian McKellen, you would have better relations with more than latex replicas of your mother. Speak sweet words to me and perhaps I will sing you a song. I do not expect that to happen so I will only spend my time dancing underneath willow tree while waiting for more wonder from Mr. Peter Jackson. Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen (giggle).
This is for cloudrider - sorry for the delay by elanor	Dec 1st, 2003 11:03:25 PM
As for why the wraiths "didn't just cross to Arwen's end of the river when they saw the tide coming" which makes them "seem dumb beyond belief", on the surface you make an excellent point that I can
Cannibal Nun - your words of the day are "cogency" and "coherenc by Superpaddy	Dec 1st, 2003 11:24:47 PM
Em, as ever thanks for your valuable input, Cannibal, but would you please keep your replies within the context of the talkbacks on this site, rather than the shit you dream up in your own head? It gets confusing for the rest of us. Your opinion of LOTR is pretty much mine
Barrage of ring questions... by Yellow-Jacket	Dec 1st, 2003 11:55:16 PM
One of the things I don't understand about the movies is what exactly these "rings of power" do. In the prologue to FOTR it says something like "they have the strength to govern each race". What does that mean? And on a similar note, what does Sauron's ring do? It seems like the One ring would enable him to control anyone who was a ringbearer, but why does it simply make the hobbits invisible? And what's up with the dwarf rings? Why aren't there 7 dwarf nazgul roaming around middle earth?
ttt - 2nd thoughts by Carl Denham	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:07:41 AM
When I saw TTT in the theatre, I was disappointed. It seemed disjointed, and lacked the epic sweep of FOTR. BUT - when I watched the EE on DVD, I completely changed my mind. It was literally like seeing a different movie. All the additions - the little character moments, more Treebeard, the backstory on Faramir - made it, for me, a much fuller and more enjoyable film. So, while I look forward to seeing ROTK in the theatre, I can't help thinking that the EE DVD will top the theatrical experience. And, I get to eat popcorn without drowning in fake butter.
Yellow_Jacket by Balrog77	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:18:17 AM
Here's the deal: The rings of power are just that: they bestow power upon those who bear them. The One Ring is special in that the power it bestows on someone who KNOWS HOW TO WIELD IT, such as Sauron, or Gandalf, or Galadriel, is immense, making them virtually all-powerful. It was only a lucky hit by Isildur, severing the ring from Sauron's finger, into which Sauron had poured most of his life-force, that allowed the Dark Lord to be vanquished. The other rings are somewhat different. The elvish rings were created by the Elves alone, and do not exert any corrupting influience, save if Sauron were to use the One Ring to control them. It is with the power of the Elvish rings that the Elves have built their kingdoms, and delayed their decay and eventual fading. If the One Ring is destroyed, the Elvish rings lose their power, and the fading of the elves from Middle Earth will be complete. Sauron had a hand in creating the rings of the Dwarves and Men, so these do corrupt its bearer. Dwarves, however, have little lust for power (the vice which the corrupting influence of the rings exploits), so it had little effect on them. Sauron managed to destroy the owners of some of them and regain them, but others were lost or destroyed. Men, however, as it says in the Prologue to FOTR, are easily corrupted. So, the rings that were given by Sauron to the kings of men successfully turned them into the mindless slaves of Sauron that the Nazgul are. Hope that helps.
I thought I should add... by Balrog77	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:22:25 AM
The reason it turns the Hobbits invisible isn't really a power of the ring. When they put the ring on, they are transported into the world of shadow in which Sauron (and the Nazgul) reside. That's why Sauron can see Frodo when he puts the ring on, and that's why Frodo is able to see the Nazgul in their true form in FOTR when he puts it on. The reason the hobbits, and Gollum, don't seem to gain any power from it is simply because they lack the wisdom to know how to use it for this purpose.
I agree with Bill Maher by exPFCWintergreen	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:30:42 AM
Watching Leo die a slow painful death in Titanic was soooo fucking cool.
GO ON,kick some uruk-hai butt! by trojandragon	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:34:52 AM
guys forgive me for asking a terribly stupid,off-topic question,but can of you be cool enough to name the five coolest rock-songs of the last 2 decades. survey blues!!!
Thanks for the replies Balrog... by Yellow-Jacket	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:37:59 AM
sounds good to me.
Trojandragon - your five coolest rock-songs of the last 2 decade by Superpaddy	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:51:30 AM
I couldn't list my full Top 5 without lenghty consideration. However No. 1 is definitely "Where My Heart Will Take Me" - the theme song to Enterprise.
5 coolest rock songs by Superpaddy	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:52:33 AM
Just kidding. I swear.
No probs, Y-J. by Balrog77	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:58:33 AM
.
Eureka! by blustreak1281	Dec 2nd, 2003 01:28:00 AM
Ya'll Terminator 3 fans...
Just saw it and i can't get it out of my head by rkasby	Dec 2nd, 2003 02:03:55 AM
I didn't read the book, but man, that movie made me believe. Thank God it wasn't made by Scientologists. Kiwis rule! So does Trudy's!!
Nervous by BCfreeB	Dec 2nd, 2003 02:07:07 AM
Lets face it...these books are too condence into one long 9 hour movie...especially since Jackson refused to cut any major storylines, and even enhanced some (IE the Arwen and Aragorn love story). With the way the filmmakers have chosen to tell the story...as a very intricate version of the books with almost all major events and characters represented...only the DVD can really delve into the complexity the fans want. I have mixed feelings about this, but once (and if) the one, single long movie is released, recut into chronological order with no (or very few) flashbacks, then we can see a truly great, complex, well told (and very very long) film. Right now, I must forget all my critic instincts and become a geeky fan, sitting back to let the films just hit me. This is the best way to enjoy these films. www.unseenfilms.com
ROTK EE by The Hillbrothers	Dec 2nd, 2003 02:08:15 AM
If the FOTR & TTT EE's are anything to go by, the EE of ROTK will be so much better that I feel like I'll be seeing an inferior edited version on the 17th. That's also judging by knowing what's not going to be there-- Saruman's end, and the resolution to Faramir & Eowyn's relationship. That said, my anticipation is hardly diminished, but if I could travel through time to next November I'd rather watch ROTK first in the EE format in the home theater before seeing the theatrical cut on the big screen. Also that way I could pee in the middle without missing anything.
Mystic River is no competition for ROTK by The Flashlight	Dec 2nd, 2003 02:23:02 AM
Just got back from seeing Mystic River - it amazes me that film critics will cream their jockeys for films that are really quite pedestrian, which is how Mystic River struck me. The central murder mystery is no better written or plotted than an above-average episode of Law & Order, the "twist" at the end is telegraphed from a mile away, Sean Penn's character is wildly uneven, careening from grief-stricken father to thuggish neighborhood mobster-wannabe, the ending with his wife morphing into some kind of cold-blooded psycho bitch is utterly bizarre, Tim Robbins shuffles through the film like an dazed Alzheimer's patient, and the very end with Penn and Bacon in the street is the very definition of "trite". Not to mention that Eastwood takes forever to tell the story, throwing in meaningless sub-plots like Bacon's ex-wife. The whole movie is nothing but a gloss on "Sleepers", which also involved boys who were brutally sexually abused who then grow up to become neurotic, brooding men. And Bacon essentially recycles the same cop character he played in Wild Things. Yawn Bring on Return of the King, please, the ONLY film that will be worthy of Best Picture come February.
Extended Editions by Frankenfield2k	Dec 2nd, 2003 04:07:53 AM
I agree with alot on what has been said in being in more anticipation for the ROTK:EE then the actual edited release. I have thought both extended editions were awesome. They seemed to fill in the blanks on alot of things that went on in both movies. I have not read the books yet, and am holding off on reading them so that I'm not looking forward to things that were cut or missing. So going off of the movies alone, these editions made things make more sense. I truely hope that this Extended Edition thing catches fire and inspires other directors to do the same. No I don't think this should be done to sap more money from the public, and I don't think that it would work in the case of say, Weekend At Bernie's 24, where we get to see a few missing dead-guy jokes. But I think in many "epic" type movies this would be a plus. I am so hoping that the Matrix has an EE, because I was highly disappointed in the sequels and a small part of me is hoping that something was cut that acn be readded in to plug in a lot of the problems that both of them had. Yeah, yeah this is wishing and all, but I'm hoping that this takes off, because the first thought when watching TTT:EE on the first disc alone was "Jesus Christ this is good". It basically made a good movie better. Now I'm not saying this could spray perfume on turds, but it could fix movies that had plotholes that could be answered.
I swear you Trolls and Haters Crack me up!.The Two Towers a Dis by TallScott	Dec 2nd, 2003 05:12:32 AM
Give it up haters and fake outraged Purists! You already lost. The Two Towers was a success with the boxoffice, critics and moviegoers alike. I personaly laugh in the face of any troll or rings hater on this site. And guess what? The joke is STILL on you beacuse no matter how much bile you may have put forth hating The Two Towers..( And Fellowship for you die hard trolls ) You will still spend your hard earned cash going to see Return Of the King. Peter Jackson has given us 2 wonderful movies and im %110 sure that it will be 3 great films by the time its all said and done. So Piss off!
Jackson's classics will endure by krylite	Dec 2nd, 2003 05:27:35 AM
Superpaddy, I'm right with you too. Just like the books, Jackson's classics will last as long as our civilization exists. The SW old trilogy will last two but also be notoriously known since ROTJ as the sequels of commercialized sellout pap. Glad to hear you converted too Superpaddy, now we just need to get Grimloch to take off his blinders. He knows what he's talking about cept for LOTR. TTT was really Boyen's boofoos. She probably got to do her worst in TTT. It's a shame Jackson let a neophyte movie scriptwriter have a free reign bit. You all who call us sycophants of Jackson, watch the EE documentaries sometime. Then watch Lucas' documentaries in PM and AOTC. Lucas looks tired, sick, depressed, knows he's just making a buck which he has every right to, but he's not making the SW magic we knew two decades ago. Then you can see there was magic, obsession and everyone giving their all in the making of LOTR. This kind of fortuitous production in a major film project is unlikely to happen again.
JD1866; The Blue Wizard; Weapons and Warfare by Miami Mofo	Dec 2nd, 2003 06:02:23 AM
You're welcome, JD. That got there mighty fast considering I mailed all fourteen (ten domestic and four international) packages on Saturday. *Feliz cumpleanos, Pallando! Y mucho mas. *On Friday the Mofette presented me with the hardcover 'Weapons and Warfare' LotR tie-in book. The cover concentrates on Aragorn, but Eowyn is also on the cover, in full body armour, with a very alluring "come hither" look on her face. I have no doubt but that Grima fantasises about making love to her while she plucks his eyebrows with a red hot tweezers! Oh yeah, Grond looks incredible!!!!!!!!!
"Then you can see there was magic, obsession and everyone giving by Indiana Clones	Dec 2nd, 2003 06:04:34 AM
Explain to me then why these films are utterly pedestrian and lifeless.
Some more background on the rings by krylite	Dec 2nd, 2003 06:34:12 AM
In some interpretations, only Sauron has the enough dark power to master the ring especially since a lot of the power of Sauron himself he put into the one ring. By default, lesser creatures will not have mastered the ring but be put into the Shadow World presumably to make it easier for Sauron and his wraithed servants to find the Ringbearer. When Bilbo and Gollum wore One Ring, the Ringwraiths were indisposed and Sauron was still recovering in a weakened state than before the events in LOTR. As for the individual rings, they all gave their wearers extra magical powers but in the end were controlled by the One Ring(assuming a master of the Ring like Sauron wielded it). Theoretically Gandalf or Galadriel could wield it and become a new Dark Lord. There's a lot more history on the rings, but enough for now. Re: "pedestrian and lifeless". I suggest one try to understand the dialog more and not being inebriated or otherwise distracted helps. Don't focus on the sfx trying to see what's CGI or not as you're forced to in SW prequels and Matrix sequels.
get a grip by cptrios	Dec 2nd, 2003 06:40:58 AM
A. If this movie isn't absolutely perfect, it still deserves admiration from all of you. By all accounts, this is set to become the first trilogy ever consisting of three truly and equally excellent films, and if you want to be a little bitch about it, go take out your aggression on the Matrix. B. To Don_Gately: Infinite Jest is a hell of a book.
Indiana Clones by thegodfather	Dec 2nd, 2003 08:11:42 AM
"at once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was dimmed" from "the choices of master samwise" Indiana Clones- this describes you down to a "T".
"Explain to me then why these films are utterly pedestrian and l by minderbinder	Dec 2nd, 2003 08:13:16 AM
Well, since just you and a tiny percentage of people who have seen the movies feel this way...I guess these just aren't your cup of tea? Don't forget about personal taste, some people will hate these movies (or any movie for that matter) no matter how good they are.
So Mori...WHERE'S THE REVIEW? by minderbinder	Dec 2nd, 2003 08:16:46 AM
C'mon, you've seen the most anticipated movie of the year and you're just going to drop mysterious hints? Seems like a stunt when you do it like that. Are you really that busy or does NL have an embargo. And about the ads, for the millionth time, there have been plenty of movies that have advertise that got panned. Remember the Real Cancun? Heck, if nothing negative is said, how do you explain the "problematic" comment from one of the heads of the site?
Balrog and rings discussion. by Conan_the_Humble	Dec 2nd, 2003 08:28:37 AM
Yer pretty much spot on there Balrog, as far as the Lore from the movies go, however the talk of Sauron being invincible with the ring on is something that needs clarifying. 1. The One ring was not created as a weapon of war. Therefore Sauron could not be anymore invincible (in battle) wearing the ring, than he would be without it. The One Ring was created (by Sauron) to allow him to dominate the OTHER wearers of rings of power, not to destroy whole armies with it's power. It couldn't do this, otherwise Sauron wouldn't have needed to control the other rings he could have simply destroyed everyone who opposed him using his own inate power. unfortunately (for him he wasn't that powerful...) In the books, Sauron (wearing the One Ring) was overthrown by Elendil (father of Isildur) and Gil-Galad (the Elven king)in physical combat. Unfortunately they both died achieving this. Narsil broke when Elendil fell on it, not Sauron stepping on it and Isildur used the shard hilt of the sword to chop off Sauron's finger and thereby obtain the ring. Sauron was however already "overthrown" by this time. Cutting off the ring merely sealed his fate. The movie makers however, decided to play up the importance of the One Ring and almost make it a character of the movie, and thus the story was changed somewhat, to what was seen in the FOTR prologue. The skill and bravery of men and Elves in the battle was reduced to little more than a lucky desperate swipe at the bad guy, who decided to try and grab his foe rather than smashing him with his mace, as he had done to everyone else... In relation to the "powers" conferred to the wearer, the one ring gave power according to the "stature" of the wearer. This relates to the level of power of the wearer, mainly I feel in the will of the wearer. Gandalf clearly states in ROTK whilst talking to the men of the West that there are a few amongst us with strength enough to wield it. (Presumable at it's full strength...) Aragorn and others were included in this statement. Although others benefitted from it's power as well. Gollum lived in excess of 500 years due to it's power and his hearing and sight were vastly improved. Frodo too had greatly improved sight and hearing as a result of wearing the One ring. Frodo also grew in stature as he continued to wear the ring until he reached the point where he was able to "command" Gollum to do his bidding and Gollum was forced to obey whether he wanted too or not. Anyhoo that's enough discussion for one post, I think most of the Ring lore has been covered. Any more questions? Cheers.
Spike Rush... by AliceInWonderlnd	Dec 2nd, 2003 08:59:30 AM
You are elf-killer's spiritual heir. As such I bear you great love and yet you must yet know great sorrow. For lo, it is written in the book of Wonderland, "In that time, when the third and final LOTR movie is released, there shall be many idiot man-children, and yeah verily many trolls, but none shall be as purely fucking dumb as elf_killer. And thank God for that."
you know what I liked in the book? by Ryalto 3.0	Dec 2nd, 2003 09:05:12 AM
When Gollum proposes swearing on the precious and Frodo gets pissed and says "On the precious? How dare you!" One of a thousand brilliant grace notes from the novels, of which Peter Jackson included exactly zero. Why was TTT a failure, because Peter Jackson added in an hour of his own material, and every second of it was 100% crap. rather than include Shelob's Lair and The Voice of Saruman, we got Aragorn's bullshit "death" and worthless recap shit from Galadriel. Petey fucked around with important plot points from the book, made events less dramatic than they were and butchered characters, wasting an hour of precious screentime on scenes that did absolutely nothing to move the story along. Thus, the last third of TTT story gets bumped to ROTK, where he already has a ton of story to tell, and now he's cutting out saruman and I'm sure the theatrical cut will be very choppy and stilted. Moriarty's already starting to spin excuses for what we know is coming: an uneven film with bad directing and editing choices, hampered by not wrapping up act 2 of the trilogy in act 2. Petey said himself he only put the warg scene in cause he thought "wargs are cool" but then he needed a reason for the scene to exist, so we get the Aragorn falls off a cliff BS, which necessitated another 45 minutes of bullshit to wrap up. How did this asshole ever get control of the screenplay? New Line should have hired a real screenwriter with some respect for the story. TTT could have had one of the coolest endings in Motion Picture history, but instead, pete had to have his fucking wargs. That is why he fails. I already know the Shelob and Choices of Master Samwise stuff in ROTK the film is going to suck. I can just feel it. PJ's gonna rush through it and miss all the grace notes. Sam will probably fight off shelob with his fucking frying pan and make some lame gardening crack about pest control. And then cry over Frodo and say, "now he'll never get to witness the RETURN of the KING." And then we'll cut back to more gratuitous CGI of the Army of the Dead or the flying Nazgul. fucking assholes.
Spike Rush are you serious? by Lost Skeleton	Dec 2nd, 2003 09:06:41 AM
You have to be joking? That's the funniest post in years.
Suddenly I have a mental picture of folks like Ryalto cowering i by minderbinder	Dec 2nd, 2003 09:17:39 AM

keep drinking the kool-aid, minderbender by Ryalto 3.0	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:09:20 AM
I wish I could be as dumbly accepting of the crap PJ has foisted as you are, but cursed with a brain and a knack for critical thinking, it is impossible for me to ignore the bad screenwriting that plagues the LOTR movies at their foundation.
"at once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while sight was by Indiana Clones	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:21:39 AM
Countering a criticism of LOTR with an ambiguous (and irrelevant) LOTR quote? Fucking dork. Tolkien robbed all you dice-olling pussies.
"I suggest one try to understand the dialog more and not being i by Indiana Clones	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:41:29 AM
I would if the dialogue actually suggested any kind of story. It's a pansyass kid's yarn stretched to 10 fucking hours length with an army of reality-shy nerds who to defend it. I had no problems accepting the visuals of SW or the Matrix. I went to see these movies to have fun, not scrutinise. Dear god, LOTR gives nerds a bad name.
Fear the mighty Dice-Ollers, Indiana Clones! by raw_bean	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:44:41 AM
Incidentally, Conan, me old mucka: The Ring does NOT give better vision, to Frodo, Gollum or anyone. It only affects your vision by allowing you to see in the wraith (or spiritual) world when you put it on (or to a lesser extent just by having it for a long time), so you can see Nazgul better, or see the bright true form of High Elves, or see the hidden Three Rings, but everything else you see POORLY.
ROTK by MR E man	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:49:41 AM
I'm sure if you ask PJ about who should be credited for these 3 films, amongst those mentioned would be JRR Tolkien himself, what PJ has done has been a wake up call for film making, he has used the story and transfered it to the screen, so changes are inevitable, the book was written to be read, not to be seen.
Indiana Clones, don't pansyass kid's yarns have sugar coated hap by raw_bean	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:55:10 AM
18/12/03 (UK date format!) will show how wrong you are.
Indiana Clones = No Brain by FluffyUnbound	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:56:21 AM
If you went to the Star Wars prequels, not to scrutinize but for enjoyment, and if you went to the Matrix sequels, not to scrutinize but for enjoyment - then why don't you go to ROTK, not to scrutinize, but for enjoyment? Oh wait, I forgot. You're bitter because every human being above the age of 10 with an IQ above 90 who saw the Shitrix or the fucking Jar-Jar and Hayden Christiansen sagas knew upon first viewing that they sucked dead dog dick in the dirt. Give it up Meesa-Queersa-Lovesa-Neosa boy.
Indiana Clones by thegodfather	Dec 2nd, 2003 11:05:50 AM
the quote that I used was totally relevant. It means, as you obviously need it spelling out to you, that you have a complete lack of vision. you've got blinkers on. if you were seeing clearly, then you would realise what a great trilogy this is. if you've got that much of a problem with it then fuck of out of this TB and go cut your wrists. Do us all a favour you bitter little cunt.
ummm....Ryalto 3.0 by vekt0r	Dec 2nd, 2003 11:44:35 AM
Thats pretty sad. You obviously are a LOTR fan and have read the books however many times. Look, the movies are different than the books. I am able to separate the two from each other and take the books as masterpieces, and the movies as good movies and one mans impossible task of interpreting them for a modern movie audience. Your attitude is keeping you from enjoying these movies. Just relax and enjoy the books and movies for what they are. Judge them on their own.
Ryalto by son of stik	Dec 2nd, 2003 11:52:18 AM
kudos.
where is Oberon's review? by Ioreth	Dec 2nd, 2003 11:54:07 AM
cant find it ... in case you did post it of course :)
"why don't you go to ROTK, not to scrutinize, but for enjoyment? by Indiana Clones	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:04:27 PM
Like fuck i will. I went to see LOTR "not to scrutinize, but for enjoyment" as i do all films, and it's 3 hours of teeth-pulling boredom i will never get back. I only sat through it so i could say with authority that it's a crock of shit, and all you LOTR fuckers are never gonna hear the end of it. I don't care what you fat fucks thought about Matrix or SW. I will say that they were better made, far less patronising, entirely more relevant to this day and age, and didn't feature characters who talk about elves and carrots while walking through fields for three hours. Roleplay on, stinky dorks!
Cannibal Nun.... by Pontsing Barset	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:36:02 PM
...you must be having us on, right? Because nobody can possibly be as stupid as your posts, if they're in earnest indicate you must be. Give it a rest.
Whatever, Jimmie. If you could be entertained by AOTC or TPM, o by FluffyUnbound	Dec 2nd, 2003 12:44:17 PM
Then you should be entertained by anything. If you weren't completely dismissive of every single frame of AOTC, then you should like literally every movie you see, including test patterns and montages of still photos of dogcrap. Literally anything. And you simply have no credibility when you claim that you find Lucas' current work "relevant" or "nonpatronizing". If that's your frame of reference, have fun. The prequels and the shitquels did OK at the box office, so I guess Lucas is happy, and I guess the Wachowskis are happy. But you know and I know that essentially every intelligent person in the English speaking world considers them crap. And you know and I know that irritates you, and that is why you are acting out. I hope it's cathartic for you.
"you know and I know that essentially every intelligent person i by Indiana Clones	Dec 2nd, 2003 01:30:36 PM
Yeah right. SW and The Matrix have problems but they have smart agendas. LOTR has a whole bag of problems and no agenda other than "destroy a ring and everything will be alright". Sadly this is a powerful message for melonheads to cling to.
Apparently, Flashlight old man... by Skyway Moaters	Dec 2nd, 2003 01:50:26 PM
... "Mystic River" went right over your head. 'The pedestrian cop story' as you call it is merely a vehicle. What the film is really about; and this is a philosophical point of view that you, and for that matter I, may completely disagree with, is the idea of "Perpetuated Misery", brought about by the things that happen to each of us early in life, and over which we essentially have no control. It's quite nihilistic in fact, which for most people, is too depressing to dwell upon for very long. This film deals with
Nihilistic and depressing, Moaters? by Elaine	Dec 2nd, 2003 01:57:27 PM
Great. I'll go and watch it. Sounds like my cup of tea!
Ryalto, you're not cursed with a brain, you're cursed with being by minderbinder	Dec 2nd, 2003 02:48:33 PM
Every one of your complaints is based on the movies being different from the books. I'm sorry you're unable to resist being a "purist".
TTT: EE by John Anderton	Dec 2nd, 2003 03:07:02 PM
I really don't understand the fanboy pole yanking about TTT Extended Edition. Most, if not all, of the "new" scenes are "deleted scene" worthy. They were cut from the Theatrical release because they blew troll poles and did nothing for the cinematic presentation that was The Two Towers. All of Gimli's new bits make him out to be an even bigger fool. All the accents and deliveries by everyone in the new scenes are sub par. Eowyn's new scenes make her out to be a pre-pubescent girl drooling over Aragorn. Treebeard was boring as all fuck. Sure, he was supposed to be boring, BUT WHY and WHAT DID IT ADD TO THE STORY? I dug the cute new scene with Merry and Pippin and the pipe weed, but seriously, why was it there? It should have ran during the credits along with a laugh track. The one positive addition is the Faramir/Boromir back story. No, the Theatrical version of TTT is clearly superior to the EE.
"I don't care what you fat fucks thought about Matrix or SW. I w by krylite	Dec 2nd, 2003 05:57:12 PM
And we're supposed to decipher the "meaning" of the Matrix sequels when what the Architect said in Reloaded amounted to nothing in order to enjoy it better. If you're not interested in our explanations why LOTR is great, then why should we have to work on our opinion of the Matrix turds. LOTR is entirely relevant to the 20th century. Absolute power corrupts. the Ents represent an environmental awareness. Death is the ultimate destiny of mortals. Those are some profound themes in LOTR. What are some of the Matrix themes?
no, minderbender by Ryalto 3.0	Dec 2nd, 2003 09:32:23 PM
my problem with jackson's films isn't that they're merely different from the books, it's that the changes he made were unnecessary. The stuff in the books was not only better, but more filmable than the crap PJ whipped out. Ask yourself this: if you ripped the entire DVD into final cut pro, cut straight from the riders leaving rohan to them arriving at helms deep, threw in some of the shots of aragorn arriving to make it look like the same time, then worked a quick montage of people preparing and someone saying the orcs will be there at nightfall, then cut to the battle--do you lose anything? ANYTHING? No, you don't. You wouldn't miss a damn thing. This isn't about the novel, it's simple filmmaking. Every scene should move the story forward. nothing in the middle hour of the Rohan stuff in TTT moves the story forward. By wasting all that time, PJ has mortgaged the rest of the series for some fucking wargs.
The Ridiculous and the Sublime. by Devil'sOwn	Dec 2nd, 2003 10:48:54 PM
So far, this has been one hell of a talkback, with both idiotic comments and logical responses. Clones, I could never dare to guess why you feel the need to come here and muss the hair of the fans, figuratively, with your pissy insults and wannabe tough-guy rhetoric ("roleplay on, stinky dorks"). That's truly inspired. And I'm sure if confronted personally, you'd use the old "If it doesn't apply to you, what's the harm?" excuse like a good little boy-slut, for fear that I'd shove some dice down your cock-gobbling throat. But I take offense to generalizations, and some of the people who come here are decent folk not deserving of such treatment. That makes me a mite tempermental. Who are you to sit in judgment of them, champ? I wish I could say no one asked for your fucking opinion, but this forum encourages that sort of thing, and dildos like you take the ball and run! Fuck! You don't even deserve my "10 Things You Didn't Know About These People" speech. What you don't know, I could just about squeeze into the Grand Canyon, bitch. How's THAT for a relevant quote, you punkass skidmark? Do society a favor and get neutered, puke.
"Absolute power corrupts. the Ents represent an environmental aw by Indiana Clones	Dec 3rd, 2003 02:04:00 AM
Jesus fucking Christ. Power does NOT necessarily corrupt. Tiny ittle kids understand that everything dies. Are these the "deep" "mature" illuminating themes of the clean-cut black & white LOTR? Probably. The Matrix proposes infinitely greyer themes of existentialism and imprisonment, while the new SW reflects upon murderously anti-democratic principles and consequences of self importance.
"I'm sure if confronted personally, you'd use the old "If it doe by Indiana Clones	Dec 3rd, 2003 02:06:42 AM
I'd smash your fucking teeth in you sack of shit.
"I'm sure if confronted personally, you'd use the old "If it doe by Indiana Clones	Dec 3rd, 2003 02:06:43 AM
I'd smash your fucking teeth in you sack of shit.
hey skyway moater! by slowneasy	Dec 3rd, 2003 03:16:29 AM
Sean penn will not win anything concerning Oscars because of his anti iraq-war stance.. That's America for you
Themes/messages in LOTR by raw_bean	Dec 3rd, 2003 04:47:08 AM
Sacrifice, when someone who saves something for others has to lose it themselves (not just applied to life, either). The melancholy realisation that all things must pass, fade away. The futility of war; no-one wins in war, because so much is lost even by the vitors. That it is wrong to despair, because there is alway hope, even if only a minute scrap of hope. That you should show pity and compassion to even the most wretched person. Friendship, loyalty and trust. "I wish none of this had ever happened." "So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you'll have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to you." ------ Those may well be too 'black and white' (by which you mean universal and intrinsically powerful?) themes for you Indiana Clones, obviously the things that are important to you a much more deep and meaningful than these things which matter to the rest of us.
slowneasy, how in the hell did Michael Moore manage it then?!? by raw_bean	Dec 3rd, 2003 04:48:37 AM

Chapt. 17: I Which IndyKlonez Reveals He is Ashton Kutcher by Devil'sOwn	Dec 3rd, 2003 08:47:05 AM
Der, ya got me there, Ace. And thus, I am punk'd!
LOTR by Indiana Clones	Dec 3rd, 2003 08:54:36 AM
Sacrifice is bullshit. War isn't futile. Hope is a sign of weakness. Compassion achieves nothing. The sentiments of LOTR are so saccharinely naive i could puke. I wish i was Ashton Kutcher.
the hobbit by precioussss	Dec 3rd, 2003 08:58:51 AM
hi guys, just found this interesting little bit of news. It seems that PJ has hinted that he IS considering making the Hobbit after KIng Kong. www.news.com.au/common/story_p age/0,4057,8040265%255E30977,0 0.html i hope that url works.
Indy Clones and his last crusade by thegodfather	Dec 3rd, 2003 09:25:40 AM
"Sacrifice is bullshit. War isn't futile. Hope is a sign of weakness. Compassion achieves nothing. The sentiments of LOTR are so saccharinely naive i could puke. I wish i was Ashton Kutcher." So, Mr Star Wars fanatic, Hope is a sign of weakness? that must mean that the rebels in the original SW trilogy (the good one) must have been weak. Afterall, they did consider Luke to be "A New Hope". And as I recall, didn't a certain STRONG character once say "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only HOPE"????? Am I right? I'm not wrong! As for compassion achieving nothing- how about organisations like the RED CROSS? without compassion, these organisations would not exist, leading to geater human suffering where it need not exist. War isn't futile? Read any of Keith Castellain Douglas's work (or any by "the war poets") and you'll quickly get a feeling of the futility of war my friend. Sacrifice is bullshit? Hmmm that's a matter of opinion I suppose but let me ask you this- if somebody very close to you required a kidney transplant or similar and you came up as a perfect match, would you not then do all that you could to help that person by giving up an organ/bone marrow etc? You know that you would if you could. That's sacrifice old chum. Is it still bullshit? I beg to differ! So if the sentiments of LOTR are indeed "naive" (i.e. innocent, frank, genuine, unpretentious) as you argue, then I would have to agree that you're totally correct. As for wishing that you were Ashton Kutcher? I can't help you there I'm afraid- for some things there is no argument or cure yet known to men that can save you. Peace.
Indiana Clones - I salute you. by Pontsing Barset	Dec 3rd, 2003 09:39:40 AM
I thought I was the most moribund, nihilistic, broke dick, sad sack around, but you've got me beat seven ways to sundown! Thank you sir! You have restored a measure of HOPE, of redemption to this poor miserable soul!
And IC, who is this Ashton Kutcher fellow that you so admire? by Pontsing Barset	Dec 3rd, 2003 09:44:11 AM
I've heard the name but I have no idea whom you are referring to.
Very well put godfather. by raw_bean	Dec 3rd, 2003 11:46:56 AM
To that I add; didn't Obi-Wan SACRIFICE himself for Luke? Didn't COMPASSION bring about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker (both his son's compassion for him, and then his own compassion for his Force-lightning-charred son)? We shouldn't have to resort to Star Wars comparisons to point out the obvious to you, but there you are. Also, how is hope weakness? Surely a weak person gives in to despair when things look bad. It takes strength to hold on to hope. As for the futility of war, Tolkien had actually been in one (and at the time of writing at least one of his sons was going through another), so I feel he has a right to his opinion. How many have you fought in? Anyway, I didn't necessarily mean 'futile', that was perhaps a mistake. The War Of The Ring was certainly not futile, I just meant that war takes a huge price, no matter how just or unjust the cause.
Star Wars by Indiana Clones	Dec 3rd, 2003 02:28:17 PM
Obi Wan didn't sacrifice himself. He commited suicide because he was a cowardly old bastard and felt guilty for ruining the galaxy in the first place. Darth Vader didn't feel compassion, he felt angered that the Emperor had made him do all that fighting for nothing. The rebels didn't cling to hope. They KNEW they would win because they recruited Luke Skywalker, who was BETTER than everyone else in the whole universe. You dorks don't get movies at all.
Well Indiana Clones, by raw_bean	Dec 3rd, 2003 08:28:24 PM
Nice to see you've got a sense of humour (not to mention a rather large portion of jaded cynicism!). Jut to get this straight, LOTR is inane pap because it speaks to the pathetic and spineless 'noble' qualities revered by almost everyone, and Star Wars you really like because is full of heartless, ruthless bastards with no morals?
Hello oh oh oh... by Skyway Moaters	Dec 5th, 2003 03:02:21 PM
Well, since no one else has shown up yet, I guess I'll kick things off with a round of "Stump the Connexions Bloak". Dang, where's that that layabout fallen Vala morGoth when you need him? Anyway, Lembas Pie, Miruvor Punch and a bowl of Gothmog's Glory, (A wee bit more potent than Old Toby) to the first poster with the 'correct' answer: In "Fog on the Barrow Downs" Tom Bombadil salvages a pile of treasure from the broken barrow and selects a "Brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies", to give to Golberry and he says: "Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder". Who do you think Old Tom was most likely referring to? Or if that's not possible to divine, who did 'some' say that the mound in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was the grave of?
Anyone go to the movies today? by Miami Mofo	Dec 5th, 2003 03:33:41 PM
LotR:FotR-EE opened today at AMC Aventura 24. Unfortunately, it's the one location in town that NEVER posts show times in the Herald. And even though it's in Miami-Dade County, it'll still take me an hour just to drive there. Oh well, maybe this weekend. *Btw mort, I too will not be attending Trilogy Tuesday. There's no way I could make it through a midnight showing of LotR:RotK after watching the other two back-to-back. I'd rather see it on Wednesday when I'm wide awake. *Moaters, my guess is Luthien. But that guess is based on nothing, so it's probably wrong. Meanwhile, I was totally unable to read those quotes without hearing Rob Inglis doing Tom Bombadil's voice in my head.
Dobrij vecher, Elaine, and to everybody else who by Sabster	Dec 5th, 2003 07:13:05 PM
Glad you had a nice Sinterklaas. Your Master and Commander review was spot on! Great stuff indeedy. I saw it together with three guys and I seemed to be the one who liked it best. One of them actually said he thought it was "a bit too macho
RAWBEAN! by Bourne GreyElf	Dec 5th, 2003 09:24:55 PM
hey, whats up? I'm gonna get a tad off subject. I just finished the song of ice and fire trilogy, I thought it was a breath of fresh air. its the only fantasy book so far that uses none of the typical fantasy cliches. there is no chosen one, no magic/evil artifact, no darklord/evil wizard blah blah. but man, you were so very right when you said the good guys never get a break. I can't believe how the author just kills off good guys left and right. you have to admit, the deaths of Eddard, Catelyn, and Robb were pretty heartbreaking. but that just shows the author has balls, he WILL kill off the characters you like, because that LIFE, people die, there are no real heroes, and if there are, they die too. His world is grim, dark, and seemingly withougt hope. I am verymuch looking forward to the next book. whats with indiana clones? oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinions. have a nice day.
Hello Gang! by elanor	Dec 5th, 2003 09:37:11 PM
Moaters, I think the answer is Idril Celebrindal although I don't know why I think that.*** Add me to the list of no-shows at Trilogy Tuesday, mortsleam, but I am avoiding it on principle. Why, you ask? BECAUSE IT'S NOT A #$(&^@#&$%@(#^% TRILOGY! (heh heh)**I just wanted to mention to you all that I noticed a strange thing while watching the ROTK trailer yesterday - there are STILL quite a number of shots in that trailer that do NOT appear in the movie. I hope, of course, that they will be in the DVD but I find it amusingly maddening and diabolical on PJ's part that he seems to consistenly and deliberately choose things for the trailer that do not make the theatrical cut. One of them is a shot that sparked a huge amount of discussion on these very tb's and it's NOT in the film!!!Am I getting annoying yet? 8~)
on mounds and wraiths by djinnj	Dec 5th, 2003 09:58:05 PM
Hm. Well, Moaters, all I know is that the mound was one left over from the Kingdom of Arnor, after the Witchking defeated them. (I knew this without looking it up, and then cheated.) There's a note in the appendices that says some believed that they had been imprisoned in the mound of the last prince of Cardolan, but I can't find any notes as to who (of the heirs of Isildur) would have ruled Cardolan at the time. I seem to remember seeing the brooch come up somewhere, but I can't quite place it! Sounds like something Idril would have passed down, though, doesn't it? Something about someone, perhaps Earendil, remembering seeing a blue jewel as a child, and his mother's grief. ----- More on ringwraiths and their apparent wussieness. Tolkien explained in a few places that they are actually more powerful when unclothed, serving as bringers of terror and despair. He also tried to build into them a problem with crossing bodies of water. Water confused their senses and they couldn't properly cross water in proximity (as in riding a horse rather than flying high over it). However, he wasn't consistent in explaining how they managed to cross assorted rivers that only had fords. Nonetheless, that's why they stopped to talk and had to be chased into the Bruinen by Glorfindel (an elflord of considerable power) and the rest of the party bearing torches (unlike the film). Wraiths work best in secrecy and darkness. That's why in the book they used agents to attack the inn, rather than doing it themselves (again, unlike the film). Aragorn says "In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror...." Of course, when we see them later, they are backed up with armies and use their power of terror as a psychological weapon rather than any physical strength. While the films have changed bits, I don't think loyalty to the text would necessarily have expressed their power more clearly. It's a difficult thing to convey, and something Tolkien's work is full of! ------ Miami! I had planned to go this morning but car trouble and the first major snowfall of the year have kept me housebound. Dagnabit! Car won't be fixed until Monday, too, so I won't be amongst the faithful this weekend. Poop.
d'oh! by djinnj	Dec 5th, 2003 10:01:32 PM
There's elanor beating me to the punch (and dropping juicy hints, damnit!). I also forgot to mentions that wraiths don't like fire! grouse
A bit for everyone by Elaine	Dec 6th, 2003 04:13:50 AM
MOATERS: I'm going for Luthien. Don't know why; just a hunch. ** ELANOR: Is the shot that doesn't appear in the theatrical cut of "The Return of the King" that of Frodo lying on the ground with Galadriel bending over him? That would be maddening. I've been wondering how that would fit into the film ever since I first saw the trailer! MORTSLEAM: I may see the whole trilogy (or "trilogy", if you wish) on the 16th. I didn't buy a ticket for it because the idea of watching all three films back to back seemed gruelling to me, but then I realised that I regularly do five films a day at festivals, and that I do always seem to enjoy them, no matter how exhausted I am. So I talked to my cousin (who saw "The Two Towers" twenty times in the cinema - surely none of you can beat that?), who does have tickets, and she said I could probably get one of her friends' tickets, as said friend is going to undergo surgery next week and doesn't think she'll recover in time to bear spending ten hours in a cinema seat. So it's not a certain thing yet, but yeah, there is a good chance I'll be there for the very first screening. There are down sides to the deal, though: apart from watching "The Return of the King" in the middle of the night, I'll be seated on row 3, which I hate. The farther away from the screen, the better, in my opinion. But you know what they say about gift horses... CUTEST: Not bad, not bad. Personally, I prefer Kim Ki-duk, and I sorely missed the Canadian "out" sound that I love so much, but you're getting there. Keep trying. ** SABSTER: So you agree with me that Danish men are softies? I always had that impression myself, but then I only know, er, five Danish men, and not that well, either. Mind you, mine WAS very sexy when he spoke about Kierkegaard with that lovely accent of his. You might actually consider that a hint, Cutest. Talking about Kierkegaard with a Danish-British accent has been known to work for me. Let's see if you can pull that one off!
I by Sabster	Dec 6th, 2003 07:01:36 AM
Herr-der-Ringe-film.de has a link for a Norwegian site where you can see different scenes from RotK! You need to register on the Norwegian site [http://dyn.tv2.no/webtv/] to get access to the clips - if you have problems with the language (the initial stages of registration are in Norwegian only, later on you can choose English) I can help you. Unfortunately, I have to leave now for a few hours, but I
New ten-minute trailer - and this is how you get to see it! by Elaine	Dec 6th, 2003 07:59:19 AM
Thanks, Sabster, for the link - I just tried it and it's brilliant! You get to see the whole Frodo & Sam scene in which Frodo says "I'm not sending him away", the scene in which Gandalf and Pippin leave for Minas Tirith, a beautiful and probably quite moving scene between Elrond and Arwen ("I looked into your future and I saw death"), the scene in which Denethor welcomes Gandalf and Pippin with Boromir's cleft horn in his hands, a short scene between Eowyn and Aragorn, the scene in which Faramir tells Gandalf and Pippin he has seen Frodo and Sam; a scene in which Aragorn and Theoden survey the battlefield, and last but not least the scene in which Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas enter the Paths of the Dead, in which you get to hear Aragorn say quite heroically, "I do not fear death!" (woo hoo!). The image is quite dark (rather like that Chinese trailer we saw earlier), but it still looks gorgeous, and ever so promising. I love the Billy Boyd bits. **** HERE'S HOW TO GET TO THE TRAILER (or rather, a collection of short scenes): Go to http://dyn.tv2.no/webtv. Click on "ny bruker registrer" (bottom right). Fill in your username ("brukernavn"), your e-mail address ("epost"), and twice type your password where it says "passord" and "bekreft" (minimum five letters). Under "fornavn" fill in your first name, under "etternavn" fill in your family name. Then press "Fortsett". If a text appears in yellow brackets, it means your username is already in use and you have to pick another one. Then, on the next page, forget about the first three entries. Pick a country where it says "Land" and choose "Engelsk" where it says "Onsket spr
"Run, Shadowfax. Show us the meaning of haste!" by Elaine	Dec 6th, 2003 08:36:17 AM
Oh, man, I love this stuff. The look on Sam's face just after Gollum has given him that horrible gloat... Faramir's expression when he sees Pippin and recognises him for a hobbit... the way the grief-stricken Denethor clutches at that horn... Gandalf's smiles... Gandalf's lines... "It's the deep breath before the plunge." "Just a fool's hope." "Run, Shadowfax. Show us the meaning of haste!" **** Come on, guys, check out this trailer! No spoilers; just something to whet your appetite even more, if such a thing is possible.
Stump the connexions bloak prizes... by Skyway Moaters	Dec 6th, 2003 11:04:53 AM
Before we get started with the awards, I have to admit something: I don't know myself definitely who Tom is speaking of. To the best of my research powers, it was a woman that was around during The Edain's wars with Angmar. If you noticed I said, "who is Tom most LIKELY thinking about". I wanted to spark a discussion of geeky speculation and research! Anyway the prizes go to Elanor-Lembas Pie (you know how Hobbits feel about food). Probably the best guess. I don't PRESANTLY ahem, REMEMBER who Idril Celebrindal was, cough cough Mr. so called Tolkien Scholar Moaters, *COUGH Elaine-Miruvor Punch to wink "warm her up". You said you were going for Luthien but you didn't know why. I suppose it's POSSIBLE, but I'm with you on this one: I don't know why you went for Luthien either. (Heh) And finally to djinnj, for answering the second question correctly, "The Last Prince Of Cardolan, goes the promised pipefull of the infamous: "Gothmog's Glory". May you have an epiphany brother.
Well, I by Sabster	Dec 6th, 2003 11:40:55 AM
Elaine, thanks for translating the registration procedure. I really didn
Well, it SHOULD be possible, Moaters by Elaine	Dec 6th, 2003 11:44:00 AM
To my knowledge, the oldest of the graves date back to the First Age. And hey, didn't Luthien date from the end of that period, too...? **** Idril Celebrindal: Idril Silverfoot, wife of Tuor, mother of E
heh by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 03:06:59 PM
Thankee, Moaters for the whiff of weed! I'll fill up the pipe and celebrate when my ringwraith on steed shows up, probably on trilogy Tuesday!!! (confirmed by email from manufacturer, although I didn't know Sauron had email...). I knew there was an atypical degree of equivocation in that question and realized why when I started looking it up. Going through Earendil's stuff in the Book of Lost Tales reminded me of the ripping yarn that is the Fall of Gondolin. If any of you have read the Silmarillion version and not the Book of Lost Tales version, your in for an eye opener (if you read it). There's all sorts of extra details, like what small child Earendil said to Idril and Tuor as they escaped. Fantastic. (incidentally, to clear up any non-conceptions due to the user name, I'm an auntie not a nuncle, when not granting wishes out of bottles.) ------ People, demons of Udun, et al, how many saw the ABC special and saw that clip where Arwen drops the book and Elrond takes her hands and says they are cold, etc.? It was one of those gorgeous moments that nonetheless got me riled for purist reasons. I suppose they are making her revocation of her right to sail West more concrete, but ooooooh it still irks me (out of context, as it is). That, and the host kept saying that the Pelennor fields was the biggest battle. I suppose to some it was (and may have seemed so while shooting the scenes), but I still think (and hope) that the Morannon will be bigger to highlight its hopelessness (just MUCH shorter in duration).
I have no willpower by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 03:57:58 PM
So I went and saw those great clips. Faves? G&P departing for MT on S, P swearing allegiance to D, and G&P meeting F for the first time (out of sequence, I think). But morGoth's problem of the no horses on the Paths of the Dead comes back as knotty as before. Hm. That's an awful lot of leagues to run!
how rude! by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 04:20:54 PM
I forgot to say thank you Sabster and Elaine for posting the url and explaining how to register! Due to me rushing off to watch it again, no doubt. No excuse! Obsessive compulsive behavior does not excuse rudeness! So, my gratitude to you! ----- Incidentally, if anyone would like a copy, I've an MSWord document in which I've charted out the Tengwar and other details from the appendices regarding transliteration of the Feanorian system, and some on pronunciation. There may be a few mistakes in it 'cause I worked on it sporadically, but I find it helpful on occasion (like trying to figure out how to write Moria Chocolates), and making the chart was very helpful towards my penmanship (for my one ring cake).
Djinnj, Moaters & Sabster by Elaine	Dec 6th, 2003 07:10:30 PM
DJINNJ: Another auntie, eh? And they say Tolkien fans are mostly men. Well, not amongst the Tailenders, it seems. ** Glad you enjoyed the clips. In return for translating the registration process, I'll be quite happy (not to mention grateful!) to receive that Tengwar chart you mentioned, for at some point in the not-so-distant future I WILL get round to studying Tolkien's languages - every single one of them! Thanks very much in advance. MOATERS: I said I'd stick with Luthien, but on second thoughts I think you must be right about the lady being someone from the time of the Angmar wars. If Luthien died at Tol Galen (which I assume she did - is there any mention of that in the "Lost Tales" or any of those other fascinating books I haven't read?), chances of her being buried to the far East of the Ered Luin would be negligible, I think. And as for Idril... didn't she sail to the West? ** SABSTER: So it really is "curly toe nails" in German? Funny. In Dutch it's definitely "curly toes", without any mention of nails. But as you said, enough of that. :-)
GreyElfRELOADED by raw_bean	Dec 6th, 2003 07:42:09 PM
Sorry fella, but with all the main characters either in situations going from bad to worse, or being killed off as soon as you start to like them, I just found reading the Song Of Ice Adn Fire books an exercise in masochism. And I still think there are too many plot threads and main characters, many of whom I find it hard to like. It's not bad, I just get lttle joy from reading it. If anything takes me back, it's the storyline in the North with the men who guard that great big wall, and Jon Snow (is that right? It was a few years ago), and all those undead frost ghouls and such. If the books didn't keep cutting away from this storyline to try and show every other event of any importance in the entire world, and had a much titghter focus, I think they would be great. Perhaps George RR Martin is trying a bit too hard to tell a huge 'epic' story, 'cause it all seems to come off as somewhat less than the sum of it's parts, to me. Just my personal opnion and I don't pretend to have any credentials as a critic, so please don't let me spoil your enjoyment of the series. I'll re-read it when it's finished an who knows, maybe it'll grow on me. (Incidentally, try Robin Hobb. Her characters also suffer a lot through the books, and there has been a genuine sense of loss, of irrevocable change to the characters lives so that they can never go back. They also are quite original and outside the usual mighty hero, swords and sorcery style off cheesy Fantasy novel. She has a very interesting way of writing an epic story, as well. There are three trilogies, The Farseer Trilogy, The Liveship Trilogy and The Tawny Man series, which each tell their own fairly self-contained story, with a smallish cast of characters and a tight focus, but they all add up to form a huge epic story that only slowly is revealed bit by bit as you read the books. I recommend you look out for them.)
Trilogy Tuesday by raw_bean	Dec 6th, 2003 08:00:42 PM
Personally, Trilogy Tuesday would be my idea of heaven. Unfortunately, TTUK has been an absolute debacle. Last I heard, UCI, the branch of cinemas that includes my local multiplex are showing the EE's of FOTR and TTT (but not in my town!), but haven't managed to get hold of ROTK for the midnight showing, and the last I heard from Showcase cinemas, who seem to have the nearest theatre to me that does have the EE's, they didn't know whether they can get ROTK or not, and have since stopped replying to the emails I've sent! TTOATT anyone? Two-Thirds-Of-A-Trilogy Tuesday?
Elaine, by raw_bean	Dec 6th, 2003 08:10:35 PM
I too have had a long-standing intention to learn some of Tolkien's languages, that I've never quite gotten (if you'll forgive the use of the word!) round to going through with. Maybe we should start learning together? Egg each other on, like sparring partners? ----- Personally, I long ago found out that a great many Tolkien fans are female, to my great joy! It's one thing us male LOTR nerds definitely have over other breeds of geek. ------ On that note, I too would love to see your sheet, djinnj, although I already got something that sounds as though it could be similar from TORn.
Luthien, Idril, and the tengwar by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 08:32:00 PM
Elaine, it's on its way! Regarding Luthien vs. Idril, well I figure anything could have been handed down to their children since both were survived. Luthien and Beren deaths were not witnessed (according to the Sil)and no barrow was ever found for them. But this was after Dior was made king of Doriath and departed with all his family to that kingdom. Later, Elwing could have managed to save more than the Nauglamir from the ruins of Doriath. Even if they fled without notice she could have been wearing the brooch. Regarding Idril, she and Tuor lived at the mouth of the Sirion until Earendil was grown. Again, she could have been wearing it when she fled from Gondolin, although she seems to have be rather more prepared than the inhabitants of Doriath. Perhaps because the doom of the Silmaril wasn't yet involved.... Anyway, Tuor sailed west when he felt his age, leaving Idril and Earendil behind. There's some debate over what happened then, as there's more than one ending. But yes, Idril went after him. I think the most widely known version is that she saw his ship already out to sea and lept into the water to follow him. They were never seen again, although there's a suggestion in the legends (not necessarily supported by T himself) that Tuor was permitted in the Undying lands, the only mortal to be so. Either way, the brooch could have ended up at the colony at the mouth of the Sirion where Elros and Elrond were born, allowing the brooch to enter the possession of the Numenorian kings, and thus find its way to the North Kingdom. Of course, it would have to have been fortuitously worn many times! I'm inclined to think that Tom was referring to someone else whom we've never heard of, but I can't get rid of the idea that I've read about a blue brooch before.
there's is more complete, raw_bean by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 08:51:31 PM
if you're looking for the characters and their sound values. But mine includes rules of application and a guide to pronouncing the transliterations. Actually, I'd never seen that one before! (d'oh!)Knowing the numbers would have been helpful last year....
hrm by djinnj	Dec 6th, 2003 09:06:34 PM
raw_bean, I kept looking at TORn and found "the letters of Middle-earth" which seems pretty exhaustive. So while mine may make a good quick and dirty cheat sheet, I think their 13 pg pdf file with exercises built in, would probably be more helpful in actually learning how to write! That added to their tengwar chart seems pretty comprehensive.
Thanks djinnj, by raw_bean	Dec 6th, 2003 09:40:14 PM
I'll look it up sometime. :) And now to bed!
Watching the Extended on the big screen by elanor	Dec 7th, 2003 12:40:13 AM
Before I tell you about it, though, this is a mini SPOILER for Elaine: have no fear, that Galadriel appearance is in.*I have thought about it all day but can't figure out why I guessed Idril. I will enjoy my prize, though. Thanks, Moaters!And to Orson: thanks for the explanation of that reviewers annonimity. Looks like I was wrong to assume what I did. So here's what a friend and I did today. We went to see the Extended Version of The Fellowship. We were both totally blown away by how it plays on the screen (what I mean is that since I have become so familiar with it, I thought it might be weird or something.) To my surprise, I found that the stuff that I got into the habit of fast forwarding through works really well on the big screen; the village of comic relief of "Concerning Hobbits" and Gandalf uttering Black Speech at the Council. The theatre where it played was particularly wide (the same screen I had watched both movies on over the past two years). I also found myself crying in a dozen spots, I think because of the connections I am now making between the third movie and the first. It was a complete pleasure and I highly recommend it. I know it's not playing everywhere (sorry about that). The audience was clearly in the mood for it, too, which was sweet. We got there 15 minutes early and the entire center section was claimed already. But it's a good theatre so we did fine. I was delighted when the jokes (cheap and silly as so many of them are) got just as strong a response as they did two years ago. The scary parts got the same scary reaction and I found myself on the edge of my seat all during Moria, even though I know every beat! I wept most of the way through Lothlorien, and all over again at Parth Galen. I heard some new stuff, too, probably because my DVD sound system is not so hot. When the Company is stopped before Lothlorien by Haldir, I was surprised to hear that Aragorn is arguing their case all the way through the scene. At home I can only pick up a few of his lines to Haldir. Then, during the Boromir/Frodo scene at Parth Galen, I heard for the first time a tiny little "hmmph" sound of disgust from Elijah, after Boromir taunts him with "and you will beg for death before the end". I never heard that before! That was cool. It was a perfect audience to see it with. Lots of folks stayed through the credits and when the music finished I heard a few whoops. You could tell that everybody was psyched to see ROTK!*I also enjoyed being reminded of things that cause so much consternation in those early, heady days before we knew what joy the movies would bring. Remember how so many people flipped out over "Is it secret? Is it safe?" I remember people crying Why is Gandalf drunk? And does anyone remember how people were howling about the "crappy lighting" (or fake lighting or totally wrong lighting) in the moving shot of the Fellowship as one by one they top the ridge between the boulders? Ah me, how I remember what it felt like to see that scene in the first trailer, the one with the crappy Mr. Movie voice. "You will find adventure or adventure will find you". Hah hah! It was a great show. If you have a chance, get out there and go see it!
soundtrack by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 02:15:04 AM
I've finally listened to Into the West and I must say that I like it best of the three 'modern' songs that close the films. So much so, in fact, that I looked into the empty coffers and ordered the internet only version so I could get the HS doc (the clip of 'the making of' on the st site convinced me I needed to have it if for his interaction w/AL alone. But I'm convinced that he is a brilliant and lovely man, and I need to know more!). I don't find Lennox's voice harsh at all. I find the shift to powerful 'clarion call' singing to be very effective. It isn't precisely triumphant, in fact it isn't triumphant at all. I suppose what I mean is that it conveys strength. And then I got to thinking whose words the song could be and I wanted to cry. Just take a deep breath and imagine for a moment that it's Varda, not Gandalf, not Galadriel. Varda welcoming F to her proverbial arms to 'sleep' after his hard task. If you've read Tolkien's speculation on what happens to F, I think you'll see why reading it that way is a tear jerker. Damn, now I'm going to be disappointed if I ever learn that my interpretation is wrong....
Duoxie, Djinnj... by Elaine	Dec 7th, 2003 09:30:38 AM
... for the chart, which looks like you put a lot of effort into it. I'm sure I'll love using it when the time for serious Tengwar study comes! So thanks again. I appreciate it a lot! ** You think "Into the West" might be Varda's song? Wow. That's quite an interpretation. Personally, I only get Sam vibes from it. When I hear the "Don't say we have come now to the end/White shores are calling/You and I will meet again/And you'll be here in my arms/Just sleeping" lines, I see Frodo sleeping the sleep of the troubled, dreaming the dreams of the afflicted, with his head in Sam's lap, the way he is described doing several times in "The Return of the King". But I could be wrong. I certainly find the Varda interpretation beautiful and intriguing! ** ELANOR: You have no idea how much I envy you for being able to watch the extended editions on a big screen. Here in Holland, big-screen showings of the extended versions are nowhere to be found; it is as if no one stopped to consider that there might be an interest in them, despite the fact that the extended edition DVDs have sold (and are still selling) very well. As far as I know, even the "Lord of the Rings Marathon" (as Trilogy Tuesday is known here) will feature theatrical cuts only. It's a great pity, as I would love to hear the added scenes on a proper Dolby surround speaker system, both to pick up the previously-unheard things you mentioned (many of which I hadn't noticed, either) and to hear Eowyn's dirge in its full, unmitigated, heart-wrenching glory. I sorely regret not being able to see that scene on a big screen. But I'm sure you'll love it to pieces next week...
Bean by Elaine	Dec 7th, 2003 09:50:52 AM
Studying Tolkien's languages together? That would pose an interesting challenge, considering we're in different countries and all. But just in case we do go for it (assuming you were serious about it in the first place!), how do you propose we go about it? Personally, I'd like to get started on Quenya some time in the near future. A quick Google search has shown that sites such as www.elvish.org, www.ardalambion.com and the Elfling news group (elfling-subscribe@egroups.com ) might be of some use, although there must be plenty of other possibilities - if anyone knows any, I'd love to hear them! There appear to be several downloadable Quenya dictionaries floating in cyberspace, but grammatical rules and/or actual courses seem to be harder to find. The best course I've come across so far is that on www.uib.no/people/hnohf (run by the same guy who runs the Ardalambion site, I think). Is that the right place to start, or are there better ways to learn Quenya? Come on, you real Tolkien scholars - you must be able to help us on our way!
buqetsi, Elaine by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 12:41:31 PM
I know I've mangled that, but hey! At least it matches my accent! I'll send you that Tolkien letter I sent raw_bean, as that's coloring all my interpretations lately. Essentially, I saw the song as primarily one about F, post-quest, unable to find rest before death. So, if you think about it as a song about dying without fear or pain (like the Numenorean kings of old) then I think you'll see where I'm coming from. I liked that it was applicable to the elves leaving ME as well. Since most of them are leaving with sorrow, it fits. Especially for Galadriel, who has 'fought the long defeat' and had left Valinor without permission and now, only after her long struggles is permitted to return, unable to bear the fading into the elves twilight years (Gimli calls her 'the morning' after all, vs. Arwen's 'evening'). Of course, her departure is not without more concrete grief either, as she leaves behind Celeborn for many years. I never really got a Sam vibe from it, although the 'just sleeping' line did echo the assorted scenes you mentioned. But, it didn't jibe enough with Sam's distress at F's leaving and inability to 'come home' as it were for me to be comfortable with it as more than a resonance. I think it was an intentional echo, but there's a lot of stuff going on in the song! I've also got a hunch that after working on this film for so long, that the writers (Fran Walsh in this case) probably felt proprietary and a little like the Valar, so this is also something of a "mother's" lullaby.
I love the "Varda" idea, djinnj! by elanor	Dec 7th, 2003 01:43:39 PM
I think that is a perfectly lovely idea. The more I listen to it the more I feel it is a woman's song, very much a mother's lullaby, as you say. I suppose I think it belongs to Galadriel but Varda definitely works for me, too. As much as I like the idea that Sam would sing something so comforting to Frodo, I don't feel his voice in it as much as Galadriel's. There is a bit too much understanding of what awaits in the Undying Lands for it to make sense to me as Sam's. But, there is a good argument for it being Gandalf, though that's all I will say on that subject for the moment. Heh heh.
Thanks once more, Djinnj... by Elaine	Dec 7th, 2003 01:52:21 PM
... both for the Quenya info and the fragment from the Tolkien letter you sent me. Regarding the Quenya lessons, yes, I did notice a while ago that TORN taught Quenya classes, but when I went looking for them yesterday, I couldn't find them. I'll try again, though. They're bound to be somewhere. ** As for your interpretation of "Into the West"... Judging from the Tolkien letter you sent me, on Frodo's inability to find rest after his failure to destroy the Ring on Mt Doom, your interpretation isn't actually all that different from mine. You see, I was also referring to Frodo's post-quest struggle to find mental rest. When I said I was getting Sam vibes, I didn't mean that I think the song is about Sam (it obviously isn't!), but that I think the song is meant to be sung by Sam after seeing Frodo off in the Grey Havens. Presumably, Sam knows Frodo's inability to find mental peace better than anyone - both because he was his companion on the journey to Mordor (when he literally held Frodo while the latter was sleeping) and because he has spent much time with him afterwards, and has thus witnessed his mental turmoil. And it does fit, I think. First of all, Sam and Frodo WILL be reunited ("You and I will meet again") when Sam sails West, as he eventually does. Secondly, we presumably hear the song right after the last images of the film, and what's been reported to be the ending of the film? Sam coming back from seeing Frodo off in the Grey Havens. So it makes sense to link the song to Sam, I think. Which makes the fact that Annie Lennox' voice sounds rather masculine all the more appropriate. ** The correct Pinyin spelling is actually "bu keqi". :-) Q is pronounced CH in Pinyin. Which leads me to a linguistic question: which dialect do you speak? Rather a personal question to ask, perhaps, but then I take a sinologist's delight in such matters.
Ah, Elanor! by Elaine	Dec 7th, 2003 02:01:38 PM
I wrote my reply to Djinnj's theory while you were writing yours, and now I've got yours to contend with, too! I can see what you both mean about the song being a mother's lullaby, but I think the echoes of Sam's holding Frodo while the latter is asleep are too strong. The Gandalf suggestion is interesting, though, particularly since it comes from someone who has already seen the film. :-) It certainly fits in with what I said about Annie Lennox' voice being somewhat masculine. Still, I think it might be Sam's song. Granted, the references to the Undying Lands might be beyond Sam, but maybe he has heard about the Undying Lands from Gandalf, Arwen or someone else?
Dropping hints, eh? by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 03:09:24 PM
Hm. Good thing you're so likable, elanor, or I'd be tempted to throw snowballs at you for HAVING SEEN IT ALREADY!!! The phrase regarding night also made me think of Varda, since they depart in the evening and she is the Kindler after all. Also, she is the Vala most frequently invoked in ME. Otherwise, I'd say Manwe because of course gender is a thing that is really 'beneath' them! Thus my inclination to Gandalf.... Elaine, I knew I mangled the pinyin... I speak whatever dialect of Mandarin my parents speak (which is pretty standard, although my mother's accent is influenced by the standard M Taiwan accent since she grew up there). Anyway, I've always wondered if F was still alive when S sailed West, myself. Other than injuries, F is older than Sam, after all. But, 'my heart' tells me that they found each other west of the Sundering Seas and had many long talks together about the Shire and about the elves. sniffle The thing is, at least book Sam is unable to see F's unrest. He is busy of course, and away from home often, and F tries to hide it from him. However, he also doesn't see it because he doesn't recognize that F would think that he has failed. Because he loves and reveres F so much, and because he saw F's true heroism up close and personal, he can't really see how F's story really hasn't ended with the happy ending, like it has for himself. Remember, S doesn't figure out F's leaving until they meet up with the others, and even then he is moved to expostulate. It was F's choice to drop out of Shire doings, and S regretted it, but never really thought much about how it came about. djinnj gets all choked up
Hmmm. Those are good points, Djinnj. by Elaine	Dec 7th, 2003 04:47:30 PM
Now that you mention it, Frodo does indeed do a good job of hiding his unrest from Sam, and yes, Sam does seem rather surprised when he finds out that Frodo intends to leave. It's been a while since I read that part of the book (too much of a while, apparently!), but I think I remember that much. And since a bit of re-reading will probably prove your other points to be equally valid, I guess I'll accept your suggestion that it might be Varda's song, Elanor's Gandalfian hints to the contrary. You're right - there certainly are a lot of "Elbereth!" invocations in the book, and there is indeed a hint of lullabiness to the song. And as I admitted right from the start (despite coming up with a theory of my own), there is a certain beauty in the idea that it might be Varda singing the song - a melancholy beauty that suits the lyrics very well. On which note I'll shut up and leave the rest of the discussion to people who actually know their stuff...
djinnj, raw_bean, elanor, and: the Sabster has the blues by Sabster	Dec 7th, 2003 05:41:26 PM
You
been thinkin' 'bout Gandalf by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 05:45:38 PM
One thing that the song conveys in its use of tense is the presence of the singer to the person being sung to at the _beginning_ of the journey West. Since it seems we all agree that it is Frodo who is being sung to, it makes the Varda interpretation more tenuous and supports the someone-on-the-ship-idea (although, Varda could be there in spirit the song is much more concrete than that would suggest). Which makes me turn to Gandalf or Galadriel. I'm inclined more towards Gandalf because he's closer to F (think first film), like a special uncle much in the way Bilbo is. I can see it as Gandalf reassuring F as they leave, telling him to sleep without fear of nightmares or pain, and that when he wakes they will have arrived at Eressea (trying to encourage some anticipation, even). The tears line leads me to think of F regretting his losses before turning in hope. The "you and I will meet again" line makes me think of reassurance, a kind of 'yes, I'll be here when you wake' that comforts children after nightmares (especially since G hasn't been back that long for F). And, it resonates with the song from the first film (not the Enya, but In Dreams, the choral piece in the Breaking of the Fellowship) where it says in heartbreaking terms "And in dreams// we will meet again" and "I will go there// And back again" which I always took to be F 'speaking' to G. Of course, this is no less weepy an interpretation. Since G would feel some responsibility for F, and loves him dearly... djinnj chokes up again But Elaine! I entirely see your point about Sam, there is a definite tie-in with the "safe in my arms// you're only sleeping." I think it deliberatly evokes that relationship because it is so powerful. F is, after all, leaving S behind. And while he loves Bilbo best in all the world, I think he loves Sam only slightly less and depends upon him much more. I think the song evokes many relationships, including the elves' anticipation for Valinor. And, since S _does_ take ship one day, so it can also hint at that, and his emotions when he eventually leaves. Anyway, never mind me, I'm one of those people who picks apart poetry as a compulsion, I think!
it's on its way, Sabster! by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 05:55:52 PM
It actually doesn't really talk about what happens after Frodo takes ship, but rather what leads him to do so, and also about why T ended the quest the way he did, and a whole lot of other related stuff. -------- You have to see it this year! But but, you HAVE to! What's 5 hours of lost sleep, after all.... Do you have midnight screenings near you? There's a theater here that also does morning screenings for the brave souls who seem to like watching movies at 10 in the morning.
I suppose I hadn't really thought it through very well Elaine. by raw_bean	Dec 7th, 2003 09:13:34 PM
Perhaps something along the lines of downloading/reading tutorials and stuff, then testing each other, perhaps trying to communicate on TB's in whichever language. Personally I thought Sindarin, because a) I know a tiny bit already, slightly more than the almost nothing I know of Quenya, b) It's used more in both book and films, and I would love to be able to understand some of the untranslated poetry and lines from the book and films, and c) it is a much more completed language, and therefore perhaps a better place to start from? --- Oh, and I would say that you are right, Into The West is Sam's mental farewell to a departing Frodo, without a doubt. It is interesting to think of it from other perspectives (Varda is a fascinating one), and I think Into The West, like May It Be which it far suppases (and unlike the almost-as-good Gollum's Song) is farely open to interpretation. But to me it most perfectly fits Sam. --- As for the referrences to certain things being beyond Sam, that doesn't matter. These aren't Sam's actual words, this is Fran Walsh, Howard Shore and Annie Lennox putting Sam's feelings into words for him and us. At least, that's the way I look at it. --------- Sabster, don't mention it. :) It would be a crushing shame for you to have to wait 'till next year to see it. And here I am, moaning because I might not get to see it as an Extended Marathon! Puts things in perspective. Have you considered waiting near the cinema on opening night and mugging someone for their tickets?
ardalambion by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 10:14:05 PM
Elaine, that has got to be the best site for a budding Elvish linguist. Not only does the site have all sorts of resources, but it links to all the significant (and interesting, or just plain funny) LotR related (and also some other manufactured) language sites out there. If I wanted a Quenya name, for example, I could look on the English to Quenya word lists and then cross reference with the Quenya to English to make sure I didn't miss anything, and come up with Nadlawen (although I'm inclined to Nalwen which is eerily like my mother's name, or even Nallewen). There's a Quenya course on the site which I've downloaded in the past but never gotten around to doing, and while the site doesn't have a matching Sindarin course, there are other sites it links to which do. If some of you want to start up a language circle that 'meets' via email or perhaps a blog, I'd be interesting in participating. Of course, I tend to be rather lackidasical (punctuated by bursts of extreme activity to make up for it).
raw_bean, Elaine by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 10:43:22 PM
I've realized why I feel so strongly that it can't be Sam's feelings (directly, although certain connections are strongly implied). Sam would never refer to Valinor or Eressea as 'home.' He has only one place that will ever be home to him, even though he does go West in the end. I've always looked at his going West as a result of his great love. "And I can't come" is what he says after saying earlier that he is "torn in two" contemplating living in a different house! He would have gone with Frodo then despite that, but it wasn't the right time for him and the option wasn't offered. I also can't see Sam comforting Frodo's tears at that point. He's in tears himself, bereft of what used to be his touchstone and reason for being almost (at least, outside of the Shire). Only, Sam never realized that he had outgrown Frodo's shadow so to speak. So he isn't broken by Frodo's departure as he would have been earlier in the text. Nonetheless, it is Frodo who comforts and reassures Sam, and in a sense, I can see this song speeding forward 61 years and representing Frodo's words to Sam when he too takes ship. I definitely think you've hit it that the words are 'interpreted' by Fran Walsh. She clearly has deep investiture in the characters which I find peaking through in the parental tone (which of course works for Gandalf, too). So, after saying that I think it could be Walsh as Varda, now I'm inclined to think that it's really Gandalf, the Maia well learned in mercy. Now, if I haven't driven you to sleep, I'll start in on how the punctuation supports all my points...! Er, on the other hand, better not.
cutest, even the 'pop' song? by djinnj	Dec 7th, 2003 11:51:35 PM
'Cause that's the only one I've heard, and that's what this discussion is about. I figured it wouldn't mess with my 'experience' and now I'm obsessed with it. Hm. I guess that's just being messed with in a different way. ---- Oh, I typed that first name wrong before : Naldawen, not nadlawen. Incidentally, there are several Live Journals devoted to Elvish, both grammatical and writing systems. They seem to get a lot of folk asking about text for tatoos....
More on "Into the West", and a few miscellaneous bits for those by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 04:07:05 AM
Thanks for supporting me on my Sam theory, Raw Bean. I probably shouldn't expound it any further until I've read the last chapters of the book and the bit on Sam in the Appendices again, but one thing I will say: it seems very illogical to me that there wouldn't be a song about the Frodo-Sam parting after all the emphasis the film-makers have put on their relationship. The Frodo-Sam relationship is easily the most powerful in "The Return of the King" - even more so in the film than in the book, I think. And with the film ending on a Sam note, and the film-makers obviously loving Sam (remember how we said earlier that he seems to get all the big scenes?), it would seem logical to me to link the song to Sam. That said, Djinnj is obviously right when she says Sam wouldn't refer to the Undying Lands as "home". So here's my new and improved theory, based on some of the comments Djinnj and Elanor have made over the weekend: the song isn't just about Sam saying farewell to Frodo (although I'm sure that's a huge part of it), but also about Gandalf comforting/reassuring the Elves on the ship, who ARE going home - to Elvenhome. Is there any reason why it shouldn't be both at the same time? After all, it IS, as Djinnj has demonstrated, a very complex song, which seems to refer to many things all at once. I can easily see it refer to both Frodo and the sad-and-weary passing Elves. But time will tell... ** BEAN: I agree that "Into the West" is much, much better than "May It Be". I know Enya has her share of fans on this site (hi there, Mortsleam!), but I for one have always found "May It Be" a rather sickly and annoying song. I absolutely hated it the first time I heard it. Since then, I've got used to it, but I can't honestly say I like it; "tolerate" is more like it. "Into the West", on the other hand, is magnificent. And very challenging, it seems. CUTEST: Too complicated, eh? Damn. That's a pity. However, I'll get over my disappointment soon and will look out for the infrequent (or frequent!) comedic pearl you've promised me. And as for living on the beach... sorry, dude, but I live fairly close to the sea myself. Not within walking distance of it, but close enough to make regular trips to the beach, to hear the white gulls call and to see the pale moon rise across the sea and the occasional grey ship pass into the West. Don't worry - you'll get those references when you buy the soundtrack. :-) SABSTER: Unable to watch "The Return of the King" until January? Das gibt's nicht. What a disaster. Can't you call in sick and watch it during the day some time? You've got to see it and discuss it with us! ** I agree that watching a dubbed version of "The Return of the King" would be, er, painful. I ordered my "Two Towers" EE DVD from Amazon Deutschland recently, and got a really nasty shock when the package arrived and it seemed as though everything was in German. Thankfully, it turned out to be possible to listen to the original dialogue, too, but God, was I scared there for a moment! You see, without wishing in the least to sound anti-German (I'm not!), I HATE German dubs. One of the greatest recurring frustrations of my life is flicking through the TV guide, seeing all the great films listed on ARD and WDR, and then realising that they're all dubbed and therefore unwatchable. Aaargh. Why do they do that? I mean, there's nothing wrong with the dubs themselves (the German ones are pretty professional, compared to some I've heard in other countries), but it's just so much nicer to hear the original dialogue, with voices that actually suit the characters. I wonder why there are so many countries that don't realise that. The things I've come across on my travels... The weirdest thing I've ever heard dub-wise (other than hearing Jackie Chan curse in Farsi) was a Chinese version of "True Lies" in which Tia Carrere's low and sexy voice had been replaced by an impossibly high and childish Chinese one. It was utterly bizarre. If ever I've heard an argument against dubbing, that was it! But I won't go on about that.
Quenya for Bean and Djinnj by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 04:31:51 AM
Starting with Sindarin is fine with me, Bean. Whatever. As long as we don't begin with the Black Speech! There seem to be plenty of Sindarin courses on the Internet, and if we could take one (or several!) together (either via e-mail or via a blog, as Djinnj suggested), so much the better. It would be a great way to egg each other on and check each other's progress, not to mention a nice way to stay in touch after these talkbacks end. :-) Don't worry about being alternately lackadaisical and hyper-enthusiastic, Djinnj; I'm pretty much the same myself. I get phases when I neglect all my passions, but these will inevitably be followed by periods in which I go absolutely manic. If we could somehow co-ordinate these manic moods, we might actually get a fair bit done together! ** I read about the many requests for Elvish tattoos on TORN. Apparently, they got a lot of people asking them how to write "nine" in "Elvish", so that they could get the same tattoo that the Fellowship cast members got after the shoot - as if it had the same significance for them. Aren't people weird? ** I like "Nalwen". It has a lovely ring to it - very Chinese, as you say. Especially the "wen" part. I wonder what name I'll come up with. Probably an Elvish version of my Chinese name, if it sounds nice enough.
Damn! I meant to write "SINDARIN for Bean and Djinnj". by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 04:33:08 AM
D'oh!
You take 'home' too literally, djinnj. by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 05:28:46 AM
Sam feels that the ships have come to carry Frodo somewhere where he can be at peace, somewhere he can feel at home after the Shire is lost to him. Also, if a taxi came to pick up my friend and I sang 'The cab has cooooome, to carry you hoooooooome!' (not something I do often, I hasten to add), I wouldn't mean MY home, but THEIRS! :) ---- Elaine, I find May It Be fits OK at the end of FOTR, but it does little for me on it's own merits. Gollum's Song was a huge and pleasant surprise to me after TTT; it went perfectly with the perfect end to the film, it really did feel like it was Gollum's song, and I can listen to it over and over. Into The West is just wonderful. I can't speak of it's fitting the end of the film or not yet (although I'd find it VERY surprising if it's anything other than perfect), but as a song I think I've already annoyed my workmates and family by playing it over and over! ------ Howdy Pip. So, avoiding the soundtrack are you? You've got a lot to look forward to! ----- Elaine and djinnj, I too can chime in on the sporadic hobby fanaticism. During my last bout, I started downloading stuff on Elvish (I think I have those lessons from TORn you were looking for, Elaine), but I never got any further. I'm all for starting up a club, but what should we call it? My sleep deprived brain desperately wants to make the incredibly geeky pun (that will REALLY separate the Tolkien fans from the out-and-out Tolkine geeks) 'The TB Club and E-mailian Society'. -- Sorry folks.
It's confirmed. by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 05:35:18 AM
I'm going to Two-Thirds-Of-A-Trilogy Tuesday. It'll be good to see the Extended Editions in the cinema, but I'm very miffed that the midnight showing of ROTK fell through. Oh well, with a bit of luck, I'll go see it straight after work on wednesday the 17th. Still, I really can't feel to sorry for myself with Sabster around. There must be something you can do Sabster, are even the stupid times in the morning booked out?
'Tolkine', new adjective form of 'Tolkien'. by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 05:53:53 AM
If Canine = dog-like, Feline = cat-like, Porcine = pig-like, then Tolkine = (person - with - a - fascination - with - fairy tales - and - invented - languages - that - others - find boring - or - silly)-like. Speeling erar though it may have been, I think I'm now going to refer to myself as a Tolkine geek. :)
Bean by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 06:32:33 AM
Well, I just had a look at the transcript of one of the TORN lessons (which I found by, er, entering "Quenya lessons" in TORN's internal search engine - duh!), but I'm not sure how useful they are. Judging from the one transcript I saw, it's just a bunch of guys chatting about Elvish languages, with a few useful tidbits thrown in here and there but nothing much in the way of systematic teaching. I think we might be better off downloading a proper course. As for a name for our club, a geeky reference that will "separate the Tolkien fans from the out-and-out Tolkien (sorry, TOLKINE!) geeks"... you realise that will exclude one of the club's founding members, don't you? I may be an out-and-out language freak, but I don't consider myself a Tolkien geek. At least, not yet. Given a bit of time, I probably will be, but for the moment I consider myself a fan rather than a geek - with good and demonstrable reason, I think. And since I'd like to get started on Sindarin (or Quenya, or whatever) before I get my geek credentials, I think a somewhat less geeky name might be in order. How about (this is going to sound really obvious and girlish) something in Sindarin? Or Quenya? Have you got any suggestions, Djinnj? You seem to know your way around the diverse Elvish vocab lists and dictionaries. **** "Speeling erar"? That's one of the more amusing typos I've seen on this site. In fact it sounds almost like a foreign language! Well done!
Oh, and Bean... by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 06:40:18 AM
I'm sorry you're not going to get to see "The Return of the King" on the 16th, but look on the bright side: at least you're going to see the extended versions of both "Fellowship" and "Towers" on a big screen. I'm not, even if I do get that much-coveted ticket to the confirmedly three-part marathon that my cousin's friend may not be able to use herself. You lucky bastard!
Walrus J. Mortsleam's review of the Fellowship Extended Edition by mortsleam	Dec 8th, 2003 10:54:58 AM
Not that I haven't already given my opinion of the "EDE," but this will be more about my impressions of the viewing experience. Firstly, Strawberry Shortcake and I arrived at the Star Southfield about 90 minutes early so that we could dine at one of the restaurants built into the megaplex. Apparently, since last we were there, the restaurants either closed entirely or were replaced by fast food outlets. So we just purchased some popcorn, sat down in the lobby, and waited for Strawberry's friend to arrive. I don't know that she has her own User Id, so I'll go the 80's retro route and call her Rainbow Brite. So, we entered the theater with about fifteen minutes to spare, only to find that it was nearly completely empty. All told, when the movie started, there were perhaps 60 or 70 people in the theater, tops. In a ginormous (trigantic?) screening room that houses about 700. I couldn
Damn cut'n'paste. Arrgh. by mortsleam	Dec 8th, 2003 10:56:22 AM
Please disregard the last two sentences from my review. Thank you.
Confessions of an ex-catholic mind by Sabster	Dec 8th, 2003 11:05:16 AM
But first of all, thank you DJINNJ, for the letter which contained some really interesting thoughts and reflections. It seems I am not a very attentive reader, because the notion that Frodo suffers from
Clarification and apology: by Sabster	Dec 8th, 2003 11:16:33 AM
I hope my last post didn
Sorry Elaine, but no fear, it was never 'sposed to be a serious by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 11:22:22 AM
Nor would I ever want to be elitist about Tolkine geekery. Sorry if it came across that way. It was a just a silly pun that came into my mind, and I wrote that because I realised it was was totally trivial, and would go over the head of anyone who wasn't totally obsessed with all things Tolkien. Just to elucidate, during his student days, Tolkien was in an informal club called the Tea Club and Barovian Society, where they studied medieval literature like Beowulf, and my joking suggestion was a terrible pun on that. You're right, something in Elvish would be better, if a little cliched. ----- And you're right, once I got past the initial frustration of not being able to see ROTK as part of my EE marathon, I realised how much it's going to kick arse just to see the EE's on the big screen with no disc swapping midway through, and I count myself very lucky. You could try doing what I'm also going to be doing; spending Saturday the 20th watching the EE DVDs, before catching ROTK at the cinema in the evening. Sort of a Do-I-Yourself Trilogy Saturday, if you like. :) ----- As for 'speeling errar', I've used it before, based on the pre-emptive idea: 'make fun of yourself before others get the chance to, it'll take the wind out of their sails!' :)
Only a film Sabster?!? Get thee gone from this place, thou villa by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 11:30:10 AM
Nah, only kidding. :) ---- All Creatures Great & Small? I used to watch that as a small kid, but all I ever paid any attention to was the music, and I really don't remember it very well. I guess I'm showing my (lack of) age!
Oh, and Elaine, by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 11:43:03 AM
you're right about the 'lessons' from TORn, they're not up to much. I only downloaded them because I thought if it kept going for long enough, I could edit the worthwhile content from them into one document that was actually worth having. Then my enthusiasm temporarily waned. :)
Sindarin et al by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 12:09:59 PM
Bean & Elaine, I'm inclined to TELL: Tail Enders Learn Languages (although this is in English and hijacks "tailender" for our own nefarious purposes). Whaddya think? Incidentally, "Tolkine" makes me think of island cattle. Which leads me to think that maybe I've spent waaaay too much time thinking about Tolkien lately (is that possible?). Regarding the language club, I volunteer to set it up if you all faithfully promise to at least 'come' to the inaugural 'session.' This could be scheduled for (subject to agreement) the week of January 12th. I was thinking I could find a basic course on Sindarin, distribute it by email by Jan 1, and we could all run through the first exercise and then post results, questions, etc. on Live Journal or some such as time permits after the 12th. I think a friend of mine is a member of LJ, and can "invite" me so I can pass on the free membership benefit. Then, we could 'promise' to visit the LJ at least once a month (perhaps during the last week) to keep in touch and check up on progress, get new exercises, etc. How's that sound? ----- Oh dear, bean, I'm paraphrasing Bruce Banner here "Don't make me examine poetics. You wouldn't like me when I examine poetics." I'm certified in two states as an official pedant! I think the tense of "And you'll be here in my arms// Just sleeping" problematizes your interpretation. I'll leave it at that though, since I don't think that Sam is excluded from the song, I just don't think it's from his overt POV. I also laughed muchly at your 'cab' analogy. That and my cat falling off my desk were highlights of a morning spent getting my car fixed (with high hopes of finally getting to see FotR Wednesday night! Mortsleam and elanor have just added fuel to that particular consuming need.). ------ Sabster, don't be embarassed! Hey, as a kid I had a thing for Telly Savalas!
Sounds good, djinnj. by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 12:22:23 PM
I was wrestling with whether or not to put myself forward as organiser, but you can be Frodo to my Bilbo at the Council of Elrond, and though I started this mad venture with my suggestion to Elaine, I think I'll let you be the Ringbearer on this one! Having said that, if it goes well, I should point out that I'm a web developer and programmer, so it's feasible that I could create our fledgling community a home of it's own, at some point. As for TELL, I think we ought to see if we could get more Tailenders involved before invoking their name! ----- As for Into The West, so long as we're all agreed that it's brill, I'm not going to argue it any further. :) ----- Glad you appreciated the little joke, you yourself made me grin with your reference to certain Marvel character with 'green' sensabilities. :)
Oooh, ooh! by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 12:28:34 PM
Even better, I could make a dedicated Tolkien Tailenders website! Our language studies could be just one part of it, we could carry on with the whole Tailend Talkback tradition without having to wait for the (no doubt increasingly rare) next LOTR related article on AICN! Ooh, I'm all tingly with the possibilities!
How about it Tailenders? by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 12:34:33 PM
Would anyone be interested in continuing the Tolkien Tailend Tradition (TTT, heh!) on our own, dedicated site? If so, what kind of thing would you want to see there? Would any of you feel up to now and then writing short articles to get discussions (Talkbacks, essentially) going? (I'm looking at you, morG, elanor, Palladno, Moaters and other long-standing Tailenders, as well as anyone else who thinks they might have something to say) Or am I just pissing into the wind, if you'll forgive my vulgarity?
thoughts on a TE site, and a super geeky name poss. by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 01:31:09 PM
Bean, that sounds most interesting and fabulous. But isn't it rather involved? A spinoff site has it's dilemmas, and I'm not sure how long conversations would run on just Tolkien and related TE stuff since there are several fan sites (with a lot of educational resources) already devoted to Tolkien. I'm more inclined towards moving our discussions en masse to tolkienonline.com or some such, or for less traffic (and more openness to the irreverent stuff), LJ. Of course, my current post is proof positive of TE tenacity, so perhaps I'm just not being optimistic enough. ---- Regarding learning the languages, I'm inclined to think we should keep it as simple as possible to begin with and see if it grows (as you suggested) to deserve it's own home. That way, none of us feels pressured when 'real life' intrudes (as it always does). Incidentally, I
A Tailender club! Yes, why not? Why not indeed? by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 01:47:12 PM
MORTSLEAM: Go on, rub it in, mate! Grrrr! We hates it! We wants to see EE-ses on big screenses, too! ** BEAN: A real Tailender site with concerted language lessons, talkbacks and dirty rhymes? What a wonderful idea. Count me in. If we can appropriate the Tailender name and get some of the old crowd to join in, that would be brilliant. Wow. ** I did realise your by-now-old suggestion for a name for the site/club was tongue in cheek; so was mine, in a way. After all, what could be geekier than an undecipherable Sindarin or Quenya name? But you're right, it would be awfully clich
apropos of nothing by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 02:18:48 PM
Who IS that action figure Howard Shore is playing with on the doc clip (on the soundrack site)?
So Quenya IS easier for beginners than Sindarin, Djinnj? by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 02:23:54 PM
That's what I thought I'd heard, too, which is why I suggested starting with Quenya to Raw Bean. I'm up for either, though, if the learning material is available. ** The most promising course I've come across so far is the Quenya course offered on the Norwegian site whose URL I posted yesterday, run by the same guy who runs Ardalambion. Perhaps the same course is offered on Ardalambion itself, too; I'll check. From what I've seen of it so far, it is a linguist's dream - very serious, very scholarly and very systematic in its methods. It specifically says it's for serious students only. I don't know about you, but to me, that sounds excellent - even if I won't always be the most fanatically devoted of students! ** "Heren Istyarion" sounds fine to me (nice pick!), but as you said, we might defer the picking of an Elvish name until we're sure we're actually using it correctly. I'll stick to something Tailender-related for the moment, if the senior Tailenders don't object to that.
I have only one thing to say to you, Miami Mofo... by BG	Dec 8th, 2003 03:05:22 PM
...and that is ... you are truly a prince among men! Yes it is my first Hanukkah mathom, and thank you very much indeed! Praise him with great praise! *** I saw FOTR:EE at my local cinema last Saturday and I'll be seeing TTT:EE this Saturday. This is really ramping up the expectation!
Perhaps morGoth would lend use of the "Club Angband" name... by mortsleam	Dec 8th, 2003 03:58:52 PM
Then you could just add a sub-section called CALA: Club Anband Learning Annex. Or something.
Ah yes, Club Angband! by Elaine	Dec 8th, 2003 04:37:13 PM
Now THERE'S a good name. Yeah, that would be lovely, in the dark, evil and sooty sense of the word. MorGoth...? **** Djinnj and Bean: The Ardalambion Quenya course is indeed the same course I saw advertised on the Norwegian site, and as I said, I like its approach - very thorough, very systematic, and very well written. I guess we could do worse than start with that one. That is, if we're all up for starting with Quenya rather than with Sindarin, as I hope. For as much as I like Sindarin names (I'm going to call my sons Iorhael and Gelir if I ever have any!), I think Quenya looks and sounds much more elegant; it really has the most wonderful aesthetic quality. It also has ten cases, which sounds like my kind of bliss. Let's hear it for lots of cases!
oooooh, Club Angband.... by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 07:07:10 PM
THAT would be cool. Since others seem eager for a TE site, who am I to rain on the parade? Sounds grand! And just imagine the haiku! and the limericks! ----Regarding Quenya vs. Sindarin as something to learn? this is what Helge Fauskanger says on Ardalambion:
that's odd... by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 07:08:35 PM
why did that post go there? That's got to be the most minor hosing I've ever seen....
post order by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 07:09:36 PM
I spoke too soon. Wonder where this one will go...?
OK, Tailender site: by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:48:02 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
WANNASEEWHERE THISPOSTGOES! On Tailenders website: by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:52:00 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
LETSTRYAGAIN! WHERESTHISONEGONNAGO?! On a Tailender's site: by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:55:29 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
IFIKEEPTRYING WILLTHISGOSOMEWHERE SENSIBLE?!? On a Tailender's s by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:57:20 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
IF I KEEP TRY, MIGHT JUST MAKE IT TO THE TOP!!! On a Tailender's by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:58:29 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
Still tryING, still tryING! On a tailender's site (sorry if this by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 07:59:57 PM
First off, cutestoftooks, never fear, limericks, silly jokes and your partcular brand of irreverant humour would HAVE to be a big part of any Tailender site I develope. In fact, apart from all the serious discusion and language learning, I thought we might have some kind of 'Merry & Pippin's corner', to provide a home for dirty limericks, silly jokes, and off-topic raving about The Dark Tower, or Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, or Star Trek, or whatever. ------ djinnj, I wouldn't dream of trying to compete with tolkienonline, or TORn, or anyone like that. I was thinking a smaller, low-key afair built specifically for us Tailenders to keep in touch (regardless of wherever else we found to post), and continue these discussions I find so fascinating, and keep up with these friends I find so fun to be around. It would be specifically for us, not in the sense of being exclusive and elitist, just that I wouldn't be trying to advertise it. It would mainly be a resource to allow us all to keep in touch as the AICN LOTR TBs dried up, and to allow you, me, Elaine, and anyone else interested to have somewhere to meet for our little language learning venture. ---- Speaking of which, I'm up for Quenya if we're deciding that's a better starting point, Elaine and djinnj. ------------------- To all, I've just emailed morG asking how he feels about 'Club Angband' being appropriated, and trying to get him and the other long-standing Tailenders on board with this idea. --- So far, I'm thinking a section for me, Elaine and djinnj to chat about our language learning adventures, a section for me and cutest (merry_beanybuck and pippinoftook) to host a load of whacky humour, limericks, votes, and off-topic randomness, and a main section where we could all have our fascinating Tolkien-related discussions. Keep submitting your opinions, guys. :)
Still hosed? by raw_bean	Dec 8th, 2003 08:05:31 PM

sounds perfect raw bean! (I wonder where this will go...) by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 09:47:05 PM
I do like that idea. There's all sorts of riff raff in a well traveled site... doh! Honestly, it sounds fantastic, and I would love to submit my past (and hopefully future) haiku, as well as pictures of my goofy LotR related foodstuffs, etc. ---- I've just registered over at councilofelrond.com (nazgchicken_avatar.jpg is now available!) and they've a Sindarin course, but from what I've read elsewhere _the_ course (in terms of comprehensiveness) is the Quenya course on Ardalambion. That said, Quenya isn't as 'useful' since it wasn't really used in contemporary ME. Also, some people find Sindarin more attractive because it sounds a little like Welsh. I'm inclined towards Quenya myself because of the antiquarian interest. But I'm happy with either. How do we decide? Quorum?
Beany by BG	Dec 8th, 2003 10:22:37 PM
A TE's site is the best Idea I've ever heard! This would solve the problem of LOTR news drying up on AICN and allow the fascinating discussions to continue. You must have a brain the size of a planet!
New theory of "Into the West" by elanor	Dec 8th, 2003 11:00:41 PM
(Hello Sabster, hang in there.) *After pondering all the stuff written and suggested here and listening to Into The West several more times and singing it to myself as I walk around the city I have decided that I now think the song is Frodo's lullaby to Sam. Sam singing to Frodo doesn't make sense to me because of the "and all will turn to silver glass" refrain, of which movie-Sam has no knowledge (no offense to those who maintain that it's Sam. Art can have several interps). Galadriel, Varda and Gandalf singing to Frodo make sense too, but Frodo singing to Sam makes the most sense to me, so I am now going to think that way when I hear it. What a Bee-Yoo-Tee- Full song!Count me in on the Tailenders website. I have just begun to wonder what will become of us all after the ROTK SEE is out and properly celebrated. And by the way, does anyone know when the NY premiere is? I thought it was the 15th but I can't find any confirmation.* mort! Glad to hear you treated yourself and the lasses to the great gift that is FOTR SEE.*I just got the Limited Edition Soundtrack in the mail and watched the full LOTR trailer which was so cool I have now stopped chastising myself for being suckered into buying the soundtrack twice. It made me cheer out loud to see the whole darn thing as one fabulous tale (ahem, not a trilogy, get it?)*Does it seem to anyone else like this week is moving e n d l e s s l y s l o w ?
elanor, I'll go with that by djinnj	Dec 8th, 2003 11:39:45 PM
It makes sense of the line "you and I will meet again" which I couldn't quite rationalize properly before. It explains the tense shifts as well. Every line works as a song from Frodo to Sam, versus the other interpretations that require 'fudging' in spots. And, what's nice about it is that it reflects their relationship so well. I like the idea of "safe in my arms you're only sleeping" as a sort of reciprocal echo to Sam's holding him on the journey to Orodruin. Sam, taking the journey which he wouldn't if Frodo weren't at the other end, giving in to his love and loyalty once Rosie is gone, to see his beloved Master again (where Frodo is after all _is_ home, in a sense). And Frodo, dear wise Frodo, leading him 'home.' Yes, that's it. Even the paternalism works. Frodo reassuring Sam, as he's done so often in the past, knowing more about the wider world. Definitely it. --- Gave in and bought my tix for FotR and TTT, despite having a term paper due Monday. P'raps it'll let me stop this procrastinating (I've 2 response papers due in 14 hours) and get some *&!#&@# work done....
morGoth would be delighted... by morGoth	Dec 9th, 2003 05:40:25 AM
...and highly flattered at the use of "Club Angband." My Sooty Patina is running a deep, deep Shade of Soot {[:^) As R_B knows, I've already provided an opening page bit of artwork. Well, my dear, dear morGette#1 created it from my singing of the Theme. It sounds great folks and I'm all for it! Thank you all for being so kind as to want to use the name. Sorry to be away folks but I'm afraid the snaga have been much in need of beating and re-training due to the recent, and regrettable, Security Slip. Something slipped indeed I tells ya and it shan't be repeated! JD and Conan are knocking heads together even as you read this.Walrus J. Mortsleam, glad to hear such a positive review and your movie going buddies sound charming. Heh, if you invite me sometime, I promise to call my self Murky Lurky :) At any rate, I like it that to a lot of folk, these movies are as fascinating and hold up to multiple viewings much as the books do. Cool!
Glad you like the idea, BG. by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 05:43:13 AM
You too djinnj, and elanor. :) ------ As for Elvish, I say let's go with Quenya then, if that's gonna be the easiest to learn, with the best course. It would hopefully give us a good grounding for learning Sindarin at a later date anyway. :) ---------- As for Into The West (even though I said I wasn't getting into this again!), "Night is falling, we've come to journey's end." That's got to be at the Grey Havens at the end of the film, thus, the ships have come to carry FRODO home, thus, it is being addressed TO Frodo not sung by him. Just my view on it anyway. I still side with it representing what's going through Sam's mind and heart, put into words more beautifully than he could ever do it, by Howard Shore, Fran Walsh and Annie Lennox. Thinking objectively, I think it's made to be fairly abstract of specific people or meanings, deliberately so that there is no one single interpretation, and so that the song can mean many different things to many different people. In which case, we are all correct. :) --------- Keep bouncing the idea around of a Tailender's site guys. Next major LOTR piece when a few more of the Tailenders are present (or when the email I've sent to morG starts getting passed around), I'll try and get everyone on board, see how people feel about Club 'Angband', and then start gathering suggestions from everyone, for structure and content. Then I'll hash out a plne for the site, and look for somewhere to host it (might be able to do this on my company's webspace, we'll see). Primarily, I think, we're gonna need someting akin to a Talkback where we can all do our usual yakking (how would you feel elanor, about being asked to venture your thoughts as an article to set us off, from time to time? That goes for any of the rest of you with anything you want to say, at some point. I'm sure I'll come up with a few things, but I can't guarantee any quality! Plus we can discuss the latest stuff posted on other websites, in our unique Tailender way.), somewhere for jokes, poems and general nonsense, and somewhere for me, Elaine and djinnj to meet to discuss our language adventures, and possible document the process of learning Quenya.
Hoho! Still climbing the TB! by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 05:44:18 AM
Maybe one day I'll be ----- gasp! ------ FRIST?!
Can we appropriate an unhosed BNAT talkback? After all, they're by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 05:51:16 AM
ELANOR: Frodo singing to Sam? Well, I said the song "obviously" wasn't about Sam, but now that you mention it, it could be. As Djinnj said, it would explain both the paternalistic tone and the very conscious echoes of the journey to Mount Doom. Furthermore, I like the idea of Frodo comforting Sam after Rosie's death, and of Frodo calling the Undying Lands Elf-loving Sam's home. I'm going to reserve further judgement until after I've seen the film several times, though. I want to get a good feel of how the song plays at the end of the film before I make another attempt at analysis. Until that time, I'll simply enjoy it for its haunting quality. ** DJINNJ & BEAN: The Ardalambion Quenya course, then? Good. I'm all for it. Anyone else interested in joining us? ** BEAN: I love your ideas for a Tailender (or Club Angband) site - the language section, the sections for wacky artwork, off-topic fantasy/sci-fi discussions and what have you. I hope there will be lots of wacky artwork. (Perhaps the old crew can be prevailed upon to donate some of their recent output, and to, er, re-imagine some of the fabulous limericks and other creative writings that were lost in the Great Banning?) At the risk of ruining your pleasantly manic mood, though, I hope you're not going to put too much effort into the site, despite your assurance that you'll keep it low-key. For as wonderful as the idea sounds right now (and it does! it really does!), we might not (gasp!) actually have all that much to say to each other a year from now, language stuff aside. After all, most of the talkback discussions HAVE been about (or at least inspired by) the films, and what's left to discuss once the film news dries up and we know every second of the three films, the commentaries and the documentaries by heart? Of course, I wholeheartedly hope to be proven wrong, but for now I'd caution you to keep your overwhelming enthusiasm somewhat in check (hard to do at this point, I know!), and to keep it simple. Don't invest too much in the idea just yet. And please forgive me for raining on your parade like this. As I said earlier, I really do like the idea of a Tailender site, and I completely and utterly hope you'll get it off the ground. However, I would hate for you to put a lot of energy into the site, only to find that it is only going to be used by a trio of Quenya students who need a place to exchange info and exercises. Just my tuppence...
morG! They said you was hung! by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 05:58:54 AM
Greetings fella. Club Angband, great! And you're very right, that piece you sent me would be great for the site. :) Of course, morG, mighty Vala of fire and brimstone that you are, you'd have to the spiritual father to us all at your very own Club Angband. Although to be honest, I think you pretty much fill that role for the rest of us Tailenders already!
Never fear Elaine, my feet are firmly on the ground. :) by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 06:12:53 AM
If all I make is somewhere for you, me and djinnj to meet and talk languages, that'll be fine. But I think you may underestimate the Tailender's desire to engage in Tolkien (not just film) related discussion, and anyway, I at least will probably still be discussing the films with people for years to come. Don't worry, I'm not going to go mental, I'll just make a place we can all use to keep in touch, and with a bit of luck it'll go from there. I'm mainly hoping some of the Tailenders can be cajoled at some point to distill some of their thoughts into articles we can use to kick start discussions. Heaven knows, some posts we've made in the past have been easily big enough to use as an article! Don't worry about me wasting too much time and energy; this will be good experience for me, and will help me improve my skills as a website developer. So even if it's a complete disaster, it'll still have been time and effort well spent for me. --- Another idea, we could have competitions (ie, limerick, haiku, amusing LOTR themed food, etc.), where we could all vote for the best/funniest entry.
All right then, Bean by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 06:30:06 AM
If you put it that way... The idea of having articles to spark off discussions sounds fine to me, and I absolutely love the idea of having weird competitions. Yeah, that would be fun! I hope it all works out the way you imagine it to... (And just for the record, I do know a thing or two about the Tailenders' relish for discussion on all matters Tolkien, not necessarily film-related. I may not have begun posting on Tailend talkbacks until recently, but I've been a regular visitor to AICN since 2000, and have witnessed quite a few Tailender debates since then - including a few that seriously went over my head!)
Hmmm. The BNAT talkbacks appear to be hosed, as well. by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 06:41:55 AM
Bugger.
Maybe, but I've also got this pain in all the diodes down my lef by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 08:55:09 AM
Shame on the Borg Queen, keeping cutest from his Trilogy Tuesday goodness! It's almost enough to make me pleased to be young, free and single. Almost.
"The second half of the film elevates all the story elements to by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 09:02:54 AM
Just one of many exciting sentences from Time's short review of "The Return of the King", over at www.time.com (entertainment section). Doesn't that sound wonderful? Beethovenian crescendo indeed! Another quote I find promising: "Viewers don't play this movie like a video game. They are seduced to live inside it." There are a few minor spoilers in the article, such as Gandalf's reaction to Aragorn's question "What does your heart tell you?" (although anyone who has seen Gandalf's smile in the trailer knows what he is going to answer), and a bit about Pippin lighting a bonfire that sounds like the "beacon scene" Elanor liked so much. Shame they call Frodo a "child hobbit", though. Psssh.
prizes could be won! by djinnj	Dec 9th, 2003 09:22:04 AM
I'm willing to put forth my knitting prowess (and extremely large stash of yarn) into making theme items (scarves with Club Angband emblazoned on them, and a great red eye perhaps?), if others would be willing to make audio cds and such, and then we could actually have prizes for them contests! Sadly, the cookery generally doesn't keep well enough to ship :( (who'd want to get a 9 pound West Gate of Moria fudge in the mail anyway?). --- I've already pics of some of my foodstuffs, and I could post my how-tos and recipes (many already written up for E2, which has been down, dagnabit). And we could have discussions on things like the Letters, too, and stuff. I was working on a haiku as I went to sleep last night. How's it run? Um... Oh yes: Faramir burning,// Mad Denethor builds a pyre// In pride and despair. Onward and upward folks!
maybe we should move anyway by djinnj	Dec 9th, 2003 09:27:59 AM
Although 16626 is hosed also as Elaine discovered, it _is_ a lot smaller. Easier to find the hosed!
Nine-pound West Gate of Moria fudge? Red-eye scarves? by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 09:37:58 AM
As of today, I officially love you, Djinnj. In a purely heterosexual, friendly, non-threatening kind of way. And yes, I'm all for moving to 16626 - hence my little test. See you there, hopefully!
Hang on, there's a NEW TALKBACK! by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 09:43:57 AM
New "Return of the King" talkback over on 16634! Unhosed! See you there, mellyn.
Sorry Elaine, by raw_bean	Dec 9th, 2003 10:37:21 AM
The new TB's hosed as well, and at least this one doesn't have Orc fetish porn on it.
bean, by djinnj	Dec 9th, 2003 10:40:55 AM
how's about 16626? As Elaine noted, it's hosed too, but it's older and quite short. I'll be checking in there as well.
Just in case you still care, Bean... by Elaine	Dec 9th, 2003 04:04:51 PM
Djinnj and I are having fun on the "Things Nordling Learned at BNAT" talkback. Feel free to join us.
Whoah, the hosing continues! by raw_bean	Dec 10th, 2003 02:40:16 PM
This TBs getting unreadble, definitely time to move. Off to 16626 to try and hook up with the rest of the gang.
Gaffer sneaks in near Nobottle! by morGoth	Dec 10th, 2003 07:32:51 PM
CALA: Club Angband Learning Annex. Yes, I rather like that O Tusked One. Hey! Since when are blobulant flipper rats allergic to the letter g ? And thankee kindly for the Club Angband idea {[:^) JD is preparing a new Cave Complex near The Gothmog Memorial Fountain. Think of it! The Learning and

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