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AICN-Downunder: Japanese Story; The Flight of the Phoenix; Crash; and Revolutions

Know you;re excited to be the first, but dammit, get the spellin by breakbeatrare	Nov 8th, 2003 12:02:35 PM

ONE Movie split down the middle by FofR	Nov 8th, 2003 01:05:54 PM

by Mr_Sinister_31	Nov 8th, 2003 02:43:17 PM

YAY! Somebody else who gets it. by Mr_Sinister_31	Nov 8th, 2003 02:57:00 PM
You know... I was so full of apprehension right before this movie started. In fact, when I got home after seeing it and came to AICN & read Harry's review I thought 'holy shit exactly!'. When he said how he was just praying 'please don't suck please don't suck' I had to laugh because that was exactly what me and my friend were doing. And when the movie ended we were just sitting there clapping and saying in our best Special Ed voices --- "YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY IT DIDN'T SUCK!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!". I have yet to read a negative review of any kind that makes any kind of legitimate argument as to why this is an unsatisfying film. It seems to me that alot of people already had the friggin movie written in their heads and were just pissed off that it didn't do what was expected. I mean really....there were a few times in this film where I was just shocked as hell. And it was for completely unexpected reasons. I'm just glad that there was no cop-out ending. I like being left to figure out some things on my own. GO SEE THIS MOVIE!! watch it with no pre-formed opinions. enjoy it.
Um... did I miss something.... by iluvfilm	Nov 8th, 2003 03:11:16 PM
... a remake of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"???? .... say it isn't so ...
Damn you, Latauro by Kieran	Nov 8th, 2003 04:41:32 PM
Damn you all to hell. I just know that right now, somewhere in Hollywood, a producer is thinking to himself: "Carrot Top, Matthew Lillard and Pauly Shore in a remake of THE HOLY GRAIL?!? You know, it's so crazy it JUST MIGHT WORK!"
The knights who say "check this out, it's the coolest!" by Kieran	Nov 8th, 2003 04:45:13 PM
Once again, damn you Latauro.
Latauro your taste in cinema is undeniably pathetic. Anyone who by IndustryKiller	Nov 8th, 2003 05:20:01 PM
I have long read your posts on this site just to laugh at your asanine film reviews. Your everyman approach to film watching sickens me. If I wanted to know what the fuckin' everyman thought I would ask a soccer mom. The regulars on this site shouild be true film fans, not yokels who seem to like everything. Latauro falls into the later category. Only a fucking moron would give Revolutions such a glowing review. Anyone who justifies the lack of actual storytelling in the film by coming up with their own "theories" as being far too leniant. We wouldn't need theories if the Wachowski Brothers had doen their god damn jobs and at least answered some of the otherwise nonsensical bullshit they came up with. All those guys did is throw things into the movie they thought were cool and say to themselves "Hey we don't have to explain a fuckin thing, these bafoons will just take it as us being philisophical!" I would bet large quantities of money even the Wachowskis themselves didnt come up with answers. And lets say the horrible story is acceptable. Just hypothetically. What was htere to enjoy? The horrible writing. The wretched acting? Oh the action scenes were good huh? Maybe slightly pretty to look at but how could you give a shit when all the characters involved were so pathetically written and characterized. An action scene like that can't have weight if you arent rooting for the characters to win. And you liked the final fight between Smith and Neo? Why? It was the most obvious blase type of fight they could have gone with. Heres two Gods, who can hardly hurt each other, punching each other. Magical in what way? Cause they made pretty bubbles when they hit each other hard? I would expect no more from one of such low intellect. In what unrelenting un-hollywood way did they fuck witht he characters? By hardly putting them on screen? Thats the only way I can think of and if you liked that your more of a fool than I thought. Otherwise it was all fairly typical. Killing characters off isn't a revolutionary feat when it's at the end of a trilogy you fucking idiot. Ive decided to go to Hollywood, make a film, and when i make the sequel I'm throwing in Cobra Commander, lightsabers, Christopher Walken as himself, the action will be done with Legos, the main characters will suddenly be shapeshifters, and there will be a sub-story starring a pine cone. I will explain none of it and people will accept it as high philosophy because they are sheep. God knows Latauro will love it cause all those ideas are cool and "magical". Latauro from now on keep your God Damn mouth shut and just deliver the rumors you fucking mongoloid. It's people liek you that we get sequels to Scooby Doo.
ILuvFilm- Learn to know a joke when you see one by Boxclocke	Nov 8th, 2003 05:31:46 PM
Come on, man, snag a clue. Everybody knows that Paulie Shore and Matthew Lillard died in a helicopter crash outside Tikrit.
You have yet to read a compelling argument against Revolutions? by IndustryKiller	Nov 8th, 2003 05:39:36 PM
WEll ok heres one. the acting was atrocious. Especially from teh supporting characters. The writing made my ears bleed. It was filmed with every single action film cliche one could think of. NO ONE can deny the wretchedness of the dialogue. I don't care how much you liked the film. Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus were fucking co-stars in the film. They hardly did anything. It concentrated on bullshit characters no one cares about like Kid and Zee. Kid is the fucking Jar Jar of the Matrix. I prayed for his death. Morpheus was especially shafted. Every once and a while the camera would go to him and he would say "I hope Neo is ok." then it would do something else for 15 minutes and it would go back to him and he would say "I hope Neo is ok." and round and round we go. It also totally dropped his love story with Niobe. If they didn't plan on going anywhere with it why did they start it? Trinity's death was downright funny. I haven't been less involved in a death since Anakins mother. WHat an anticlimactic death after it went through all that trouble to save her at the end of the second film. It also answers NO questions. How did Smith get the power to replicate? (saying he has a piece of Neo in him is not an acceptable answer) Why doesnt Neo have the powers he had at the end of the first film? How did his powers bleed over into the real world? What is that train station bullshit? If the architect is such a cold calculating machine why didn't he just kill humanity anyway? There are TONS of these questions. Questions that have real relevance to the story that needed to be clarified. The answers to these questions are integral tot he plot. WIthout them you are just making excuses for why things happen. I bet you can't answer any of them without say "I think" or "my theory is" to start the sentence. I have plenty more stupid shit thats in there but I leave it at this for now. So theres your compelling argument. Its right here. This shit can't be denied. But something tells me your ignorance toward all of it will continue to encompass your tiny mind. I don't think there is anything anyone could say to make you wake up to the reality of it. The Wachowski Brothers could have done anything and as long as there were guns being fired the peons still would have loved it.
I liked Revolutions, but... by HardcoreRocker	Nov 8th, 2003 07:25:35 PM
...where the fuck are people getting all this Bin Laden analogies? God damn. www.rockithardcore.com
Holy shit industrykiller, why the hell are you so bitter that th by ar42	Nov 8th, 2003 08:57:24 PM
To answer one of your questions without using "I think" or "my theory is": it is clearly explained by the Oracle that Neo's powers have extended "into the machine world" -- not into "the real world." This is why he can control the sentinels but can't see Trinity. And this is why he wakes up at the train station, the gateway between the Matrix and the machine world. There are plenty of answers there for people who bother to stop and think about what they're seeing instead of screaming about how stupid everyone else is.
I was disappointed by the sequels by mayaV	Nov 8th, 2003 09:07:02 PM
As I said in Harry's TB: Reloaded and Revolutions are not worth to bear Matrix infront. Truth hurts, Matrix was sacrificed to almighty $$. * The end was a disaster: no winner, only a peace areement as vulnerable as in the Middle-East. Trinity's death was so pathetic, also this las fight between Neo and Smith. Best part of the film: again playing in the Matrix, when Trinity and Morpheus made their way through this club to Mero. The battle to save Zion: wow, did Lukas do that one? * Despite all the criticism I needed to drop: Reloaded and Revolutions are still better than the SW prequels. And I have to admit, I did enjoy watching them. I didn't like what the W's did to their own idea. Sold their souls, didn't they?
That christ analogy by George Newman	Nov 8th, 2003 09:20:54 PM
It worked for the first movie but it was thrown out the window with the last two. Jesus would not have made peace with the machines. He would have converted the robots one by one. Then those robots that were acceptiong of the message would go to heaven. If you want to see this dream become a reality (for those that haven't got it yet) watch the ANIMATRIX.
you gotta just chill by clearlyinsane	Nov 8th, 2003 10:05:18 PM
man, you guys putting the hate on for the Matrix sequels have got to chill. you remind me of kids that have just found out that there is no Santa Claus. In a way, it's touching, to know that so many people had such intense hope for something miraculous to emerge from these trilogies. But would it ever have measured up to your expectations? Also - my last question - i hear a lot of criticism, but no real ideas on how the film could have been better. To criticize the special effects: come on...the acting - well, to each their own. And the story line - instead of focusing on what you wanted, is it such a stretch to try and imagine what it is that the W Bros were trying to achieve??? Do you really believe that they were selling out? How could you possibly say that? They were given carte blanche to do whatever they wanted with this film. Do you really think they care? Do you know who Larry (or is it the other guy) dates??? that should give you an idea of what they think about other people's opinions or expectations... anyways - all that to say - give me some cool ass alternate endings, or story lines or something.
I'm surprised that the new version of Flight Of The Phoenix didn by Osmosis Jones	Nov 8th, 2003 10:42:14 PM
Being the king of unneccesary remakes, and all. You just know this new version will have a cute kid stowaway ("Dr. Jones, no more parachutes!") and a sludgy Media Ventures soundtrack. Oy...
It ends tonight & Because I choose to by AlwaysThere	Nov 8th, 2003 11:50:36 PM
Those are the only two line I remember Jesus...er, Neo saying during the last fight, which wasnt 'super' at all.
The Matrix is crap by Noell	Nov 8th, 2003 11:55:12 PM
Just how many times can viewers watch the same stuff over and over? I got amused by the first movie with it's summersaults? How axactly does doing that avoid the bullets? The first movie was very imaginative with the waking up scene but deterioted with the heavy metal rubbish music and the constant repetative fights. A real story would have been much better than phototographic gimmicks.
Japanese Story was cinematic excrement by quantum_ken	Nov 9th, 2003 02:16:33 AM

matrix bashers by Anomaly	Nov 9th, 2003 03:21:17 AM
Amen to the post above mine. If you're going to try to bash the Matrix movies at least come with some intelligent criticisms and know your facts.
There are TONS of intelligent criticisms. by IndustryKiller	Nov 9th, 2003 03:42:16 AM
And that still doesnt answer those questions Aragor. So if Neo gets to see the choices he has to make in the future then why can't he seee what is going to happen when he gets to the machine city? That was a big choice wasn't it? Yet Neo explicitly says he has no idea whats going to happen. I guess it's just a random power that turns itself on and off whenever the Wachowskis need it to move the story along. And yeah he ends up at the train station because his powers extend to the real world. How? How the fuck do his powers extend to the real world? Is it magic somehow? You don't know because they don't tell you; leaving a plot hole the size of Detroit. You have to assume for yourself because the Wachowskis were too lazy to figure it out themselves. And if they did that one or two times maybe it would be passable, but there are tens of things that are never even remotely explained. You can't just make a movie and say "Hey let's put this in the movie just because we can, even know it breaks all the rules of the film, and then give absolutely no explaination for why it's occuring." It's bad storytelling. They should take a cue from Vanilla Sky. It's a strange existential ending but all the pieces of the puzzle are given to you. You know exactly what happened but it's still open to a litttle thing we call INTERPRETATION. You might say to yourself "Self, the Matrix has plenty of things to interpret." You would be wrong. You aren't "interpreting" the story of the Matrix. You are practically writing the film yourself because you are given merely half a puzzle. You can only "interpret" something when it is there before you, when the pieces actually exist. With Matrix 2 and 3 the pieces are simply not there. And let's say hypothetically the film did make sense, you would still have horrible acting, dialogue, and action to contend with. As a piece of cinema it sucks, plain and simple.
sigh by Wraith440	Nov 9th, 2003 06:32:11 AM
I just lost my entire entry... so I'm just going to say that I personally was looking for an ending, not the temporary solution required to satisfy the requirements of the MMORPG that is planned for next year. Something other than the "hey let's work WITH the machines, and then I'll die for the salvation of the world just like Jesus" ending that we were handed. Don't get me started on plot holes, character development, or the W brothers just taking whatever was cool in the first film and popping it in this one for a "whoa" factor. I really wanted to like this movie, I really did.
by Wraith440	Nov 9th, 2003 06:38:42 AM
"Thats why he can see all the machines after he is blind just as he can see in code in the matrix. Yeah you dont see him using power on bane do ya now" Actually, from what it looked like, he pulled the same thing on Bane as he did to Smith in the first film... sans diving into him and making him explode. But he did use his zen power to anticipate Bane's moves and effortlessly kick his ass. I don't see why he didn't use that power on Bane though... I mean, if he can see him, that means he can manipulate his code as he does with the sentinals and little squid bombs, so theoretically he could wave his hand and fuck with the code in Bane's body.
Not that I care, but it's not unreasonable that Neo couldn't "mu by whatamidoinghere	Nov 9th, 2003 11:58:00 AM
Neo was able to 'knock out' sentinels and explode bombs--and he would not have been entirely sure he could even do that at the time and the last time he did that it knocked him out--but doing to Bane what he did to Smith in M1 would be, if you will, a much more "advanced" task, the sentinels aren't all that intelligent. If Neo could stop Smith from assimilating him in Reloaded, Bane/Smith could be able to say "nah-ha...not this time." Anyway, he didn't need to, he had that crowbar. There certainly is lots to complain bout in them, but in general people just seem to be really disappointed that the sequels didn't continue in the the obvious direction indicated by the first--Neo perhaps going on some sort of Alice-in-Wonderland type quest through the depths of the "machine world" and freeing humanity and raising an army and kicking machine ass. If that was all there was to it, there truly would have been no point in any sequels. It would have meant that Neo really was some sort of messiah sent by God, which is more idiotic than using people as batteries and all the psycobabble and sci-fi clich
Aragor my argument is unarguably stronger than yours. Deal with by IndustryKiller	Nov 9th, 2003 12:43:43 PM
Ok so what is the fucking difference then between the "Machine" world and the real world? Because as far as I can tell the machines don't live on some different level of existence than the humans. The Matrix isn't some outerworldly dimension, its just a bunch of code on a computer somewhere. Theres no different "world" or "dimension" that the Wachowski Brothers ever established. It's all still the real fucking world and it would still take some sort of magic for him to do what he did. So how did he do it? Saying his powers extend out of the Matrix doesn't tell me how. I don't recall them mentioning that the prophecy of the one involved magic in any way. That's because the Wachowskis didn't think of it in the first film. I can see them sitting down to make the sequel "Oh man I got an idea! Let's make him have magical power because...uhhhh....because his powers extend outside the Matrix now! We don't even have to say why we'll just say some random shit about the machine world that makes no sense whatsoever. Now pass the blow while I fuck this ugly transvestite." And as for his ability to see the future. How the fuck does sayiong "NEO CAN"T SEE PAST THE CHOICES HE HAS TO MAKE!" answer my quetion about that abiility? I love how you answer vague questions with vague answers. The one time I can recall him having the power of foresight is with the Trinity thing at the end of Reloaded. Thats it. Neo makes TONS of choices in these three films yet for some reason thats the only time he sees the future. Why? Becuase the Wachowskis thought it would be a neat thing to throw in the story. Thats why. There is no rhyme or reason to that ability. It happens that one time because the Wachowskis wanted to build suspense for the audience. Why didn't he see it in the first film when he had to choose to save Morpheus? Certainly he didn't HAVE to do that. God knows Morpheus is practically worthless in the following two films. So there you have it Aragor. Game set and match.
lol 'mynameisnobody, by whatamidoinghere	Nov 9th, 2003 08:21:04 PM
Did you watch the first movie? The whole thing was about Neo becoming The One. Simply being the 'chosen one' did not make him The One, he had to learn how to harness that potential and he did not gain all of his 'powers' overnight, they evolved over the whole trilogy. In regards to his apparent seeing of the future in Reloaded--which is silly, but I guess he wouldn't be much of a "savior" if he couldn't--you could guess that his "visions" were planted, part of the whole con of his "quest," the "seeing the world without time" stuff was BS. Where his vision of the power lines and his real-world powers came from and how we wound up in that train station, that's what we're left to ponder...there's probably some sort of "explanation" whether or not it makes any sense. I would guess the Oracle set it up, it is indicated that the whole resolution was her doing in some way.
Fuckin' babies by 2ndborn74	Nov 10th, 2003 12:08:06 AM
So You didn't get the Matrix sequels. Tough titties. Bunch of fuckin' retards. Have to have mommy spoon feed you your brain. There's NO WAY to deny the Matrix Trilogy it's spot in science fiction history as the most original sagas in the last 20 years. There is no such thing as a perfect movie, Reloaded and Revolutions are not perfect. But I didn't go to see them looking for perfection, I went to be entertained. Mission accomplished. I have to laugh at some of the complants I've read. Bad acting? They can act better than you, John Q. Fanboy. I dare anyone to tell me what SF movies in 2003 were better then the last two Matrix flicks. And don't give me that Terminator 3 shit. I'll kick your fuckin' bitch ass. Fuck a critic. Critics are lonely, bitter, jealous people. Most of them are failed actors, wantabe screenwriters, fallen directors who are just mad they didn't come up with something first.
So, according to industrykiller, when I press my little car keyc by ar42	Nov 10th, 2003 12:52:31 AM
You're digging your own grave, man. Stop and actually read the explanations people are giving you. They make sense.
No ar42 I'm not saying thats magic. because you are using a mach by IndustryKiller	Nov 10th, 2003 01:33:51 AM
I'm saying if you could will your car door to open with nothing else but the power of your mind I would think it was a little hinky. And if you could create an electrical forcefield that would destroy and machine in it's path with that same power, that would be something akin to magic. Jackass.
Latauro's controversial response by Latauro	Nov 10th, 2003 02:47:07 AM
You guys crack me up.
That was no movie.... that was an 'event' by TheAquabatman	Nov 10th, 2003 05:39:47 AM
These guys brought us eye-candy we had never seen before... huge bloody scenes, beautiful big science fiction imagery. I have no idea how to explain the story (what the...) but story always comes second to eye-candy for me. And holy mumma of God check out the Superman styled fight scene - pure move magic. Let the trilogies end - we are being spoiled. Return of the revolutionary emplre pie.
re: christ analogy by mayaV	Nov 10th, 2003 08:49:36 AM
Read this 'The Matrix as Metaphysics' by David Chalmers: he wrote, if there's anyone you might compare to Christ in Matrix, it's Agent Smith. I quote: "It is often held that Neo is the Christ figure in the movie, with Morpheus corresponding to John the Baptist, Cypher to Judas Iscariot, and so on. But on the reading I have given, the gods of the Matrix are the machines. Who, then is the Chris figure? Agent Smith, of course! After all, he is the god's offspring,sent down to save the Matrix from those who wish to destroy it. And in the second movie he is even resurrected." www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/pa pers/matrix.html to anyone who's interested in philosophy.
I don't get the confusion... by xspider	Nov 10th, 2003 08:52:53 AM
I really don't understand why so many people are confused with the ending of the movie. I thought it was pretty straight foward. Neo is the One, the function of the One is to restart the Matrix and set everything back to "go"... even Zion... in Reloaded they tell us this. At the end of Revolutions, he does just that. Of course, he doesn't know it until the last moment... that Smith and he are the same counter-balance... and that the Matrix can't restart itself until the balance is broken by one of them... until one of them dies and thus completely corrupts the system. Smith doesn't know either, it isn't until the last second that he gets it... the whole time he thinks he's ending it all when in reality he's serving his destiny and bring things back to a new beginning. Likewise, Neo doesn't realize that its him... his "choosing" to not let it end... that keeps it from beginning anew. I think the ignorance of the characters to the overwhelming issues in the Matrix movies is sort of a machine interpretation of "free will". Ignorance is the root of free will... the less you know... the more you choose. A supreme being... like say God for those of you who believe in him/her... does not have "free will". By definition they cannot. How do you make a choice if you already "know". Choice requires uncertainity... uncertainity springs from ignorance... and thus to have "free will" is to be in the dark. And that's the only way any reality could possibly ever function. Without choices... what is life? Even the agents... the so-called key-holders of the Matrix are utterly clueless to the full scope of their little world... so is the Architect... so is the Oracle. They cannot have the answers to all the questions because that is life... that is existence... to know everything is to be out of choices... to be no-longer living.
re: xspider by mayaV	Nov 10th, 2003 09:38:42 AM
Hm, so you thik the Matrix is restarted now? So why would the Oracle ask if now people are free to leave the Matrix and go to Zion? Don't you think, that there's some change? Something that's never been before? It's different now than it was with the pre-Neos, because Zion still exists and Neo died. He didn't rescue the first citicens of a new Zion and there won't be agents anymore to keep Morpheus and his crew from getting people out of the Matrix. I have to admit, the more I think about it the less I understand it.
that's the thing about destiny... by xspider	Nov 10th, 2003 09:49:32 AM
It isn't really predetermination... there is still choice involved. Just because Neo and Smith are destined to be counter-balanced and restart the Matrix... doesn't mean it has to always work out exactly the same way. Destiny is immutable... for example... death is destiny... you can postpone it... change its form... change its location... change anything about it... except its happening. It's the choices you make that define the world you leave behind. None of the previous Neo's went to the machine city... because the Oracle never made the choices then that allowed it. None of the others brought about peace because of it. Neo still served his destiny... but he did make a difference while doing it. We're all going to die... but we still choose how we live. And remember... Neo "is" back in the Matrix... the machines take his body (ala a king arthurish moment) and the Oracle says he'll be back some day. Assumingly, the next time the Matrix needs to be... well... Reloaded. And he'll fulfill his destiny then too... how, why, and for what end... those are up for grabs.
........Hmmm by small boy	Nov 10th, 2003 12:14:36 PM
I don't know. I really don't and i no longer care. The people who like The Matrix Revolutions, that's fine. I loved the fist film, thought the 2nd was great, and really hated the 3rd. But, i don't tell people not to see it. Free will, as you say. But, i do take exception to nobs like AaragorNeo007 who cannot take it that their precious film DID NOT MAKE ANY SENSE!!! If people don't like the film, they're dumb asses, right, i get it. You're the smartest guy on the board, man, you really are. IndustryKiller! pretty much summed up what i personally thought was wrong with the film; it didn't make any sense to me, it gave no real closure, and there were enormous plot-holes that they could not be arsed to fix or even think about. It did seem to me that they ignored the 2nd film in the 3rd one, also. It just reeked of a lazy cash-in, there's no fucking way they wrote all 3 movies at the same time. The first film is coherent, it could easily stand alone, but the sequels just did not need to be made. If someone doesn't agree with you that The Matrix Revolutions was not the be-all and end-all of movies, please don't dismiss them as a dumb-ass, you're just being a cock. It's a free world, i respect that you liked, you should respect that some people didn't.
Defensive fans listen up... by Bob Maplethorp	Nov 10th, 2003 09:04:27 PM
You sound like me after RELOADED came out: defensive. And with good reason. People are attacking something personal to you. In my defense of RELOADED, I told all of my Matrix-lovin' friends to rest assured that the Wachowski's have a method to their madness. The overblown dance/sex scene had a purpose, the Merovingian had a greater purpose, the Architect's complex monologue had a purpose. "We will just have to wait and let those new plot threads open up in Revolutions." And you know what? They never did. Now before you invoke point/counterpoint (with expletives and name-calling), let me just say that these are story elements that, I felt, were neglected almost entirely in the final chapter. And, I don't need it explained to me how they were and that I just "didn't get it". I've seen Revolutions twice now, and it's just not there. It is just careless storytelling to introduce new ideas without expounding upon them. The Wachowski's are not masters of the craft (neither am I, obviously), and I have seen and studied enough film to form an educated opinion when I say that they simply made several huge mistakes with the story. People enjoy movies for many different reasons, and the reasons I love the first two films were almost non-existent in Revolutions.
Just for the record... by xspider	Nov 10th, 2003 09:43:56 PM
I did not, and would not imply someone a dumbass because they wouldn't agree with me. For pity's sake... its just a bloody movie. Some people say they don't get the film, I don't get what's so confusing. That does not imply they are a dumbass or anything of the sort. For all I know I could have been half off in lala-land and just missed all the confusing parts. I just honestly don't get some of the confusion and problems people are finding. Like the Merovingian (probably spelled wrong... guess I'm a dumbass...), he's a go between character, sort of a mini-boss. I'm not sure what people were expecting from his character. I thought it was a nice nod to some of the fantasy/rpgish elements of the movies that Trinity flipped-out over the stupid "Be me the eyes fo the Oracle" side-quest. And the dance sequence in Reloaded (while I found it god-aweful) did relate to the scene of the humans huddled together at the end of Revolutions. Same room, same pairings of individuals, same skin to skin contact, only united in fear rather than joyous excitement... a parallel of the two emotions, which they movie makes a point of referencing... the Merovigian even make vocal note of the similiarity betweeen love and insanity. Now as I stated... I do not think the movie was all that good. Visually I was most certainly entertained. Story wise... I was at least kept involved until the end. Overall... it could definately have been much, much better. Yes, the dialogue in places was "painfully" cheesy, yes the multitude (and there was a great multitude) of mythology nods was done far too heavy-handly and predicatably. A man that can't see until he loses his eyes. The giant face in the "sand" and booming voice of some "divine" figure." An Oracle's prophesy that works out exactly as she says, but not the way the characters interpret it. The Arturian cliche of Neo being "boated" offinto the city of the steel, glass, and light (Avalon nod). Blah, blah, blah... yeah... all way overdone and way too predictable. In short, no... the movie was not the end-all-be-all of modern cinema... at least in my opinion. But in my opinion, it wasn't as confusing as some people are saying. At the very least, I didn't want my money back... and I might even buy the DVD release (lord knows I own worse films). I think a major problem many are having is that they asked their own questions about some things that the movies never really ventured into and they pissed that the movie didn't do so for their benefit. I saw the same thing in rants about the last season of BtVS (once again, not a great masterpiece of television). People payed so much attention to "Oh, I bet this means something." or "Man, that's got to be important." that when it was never part of the actual film they felt that the movie had lied to them. When in fact, odds are the creators probably never meant that "thing" to have any greater meaning or importance. shrug As always, to each his own...
by w1p30u7	Nov 11th, 2003 01:10:53 AM
The point Aragorn/Neo (am I the only other person who sees what his name is, not "Aragor"??) was trying to make is that, No, the points IndustryKiller brought up as being plot holes WERE answered in the films. Maybe you just didn't hear it. The Oracle told Neo that he could do those things in the Real World as a result of his contact with the Source, though it should have killed him when he zapped the Squiddies. Granted, they didn't say how EXACTLY, but there's a piece of info ALA "Vanilla Sky" that's open for interpretation. Magic is obviously your interpretation, it sure as hell ain't mine, and you don't like your own hypothesis. Change it then, "magic" was your idea to begin with, Killer... Smith can replicate himself because he is now a virus. I figured that was obvious to everyone. He even said-- "I felt different. I felt change. After that, I knew what I was supposed to do-- where I was supposed to go, but I couldn't; I was compelled to stay.. blah blah blah." Characteristics of a virus, if you ask me... I'm not going to go into any other plot holes that you named specifically, mainly because, although some were explained one way or another, there ARE quite a few noticeable holes: what the hell happened to the twins? It didn't look like they died in Reloaded, and if Smith assimilated them too, they should've at least shown it, I'm sure that would have made an awesome fight scene. As for the fight-scenes sucking, BTW, there isn't a single action movie you could name that had better fight choreography than ANY of the Matrix films, and Crouching Tiger doesn't count (or any other Hong Kong or Korean action flick for that matter), since it involves fantastic flights and fights without any valid explanation other than traditional Hong Kong films... I have to agree whole-heartedly with xspider-- Revolutions wasn't THAT great of a film. I liked it, but at the end, I felt unfulfilled-- like I hadn't seen a movie at all. I thought I was going to get more and more mad at the film the more I thought about it afterwards, but actually, I haven't. I remembered that that is what the W bros wrote in the first place. People's expectations have just risen WAAAYY too high, namely because of the philosophical shyte the W Bros brought up. Yeah I still have questions, and yeah for a 2hr film, it seemed really short, since it was so plotless. I think all bad acting flames should go directly to Jada Pinkett-Smith-- she is the worst actress EVER. Why in the hell was she SO monotone the entire time, real- or Matrix-world? Hell, even in the Matrix, the other characters expressed some sort of emotion in their words and actions... They should've kept Aaliyah in there, and just used a CG model of her in any parts she hadn't finished, especially if they thought their CG humans were SO GREAT (they really sucked ass, even Neo's fist when he hit Smith in the end looked like a High-schooler's work with "Martin Hash's Animation Master")-- but I digress (a lot). Reloaded and Revolutions were meant to be one single flick a long time ago, and they cut it in 2 VERY early in production. Thus, the long and pointless Rave, a 20 minute Burly Brawl (woulda been penultimate, had the CG people not sucked so bad...otherwise, it was just "pretty cool"), and the near-plotless Revolutions. One 3-hour movie woulda done fine, and I bet that the continuity issues that plagued Revolutions would be almost non-existent, since everything would be happening in one sit down, instead of two over a 6-7 month period... FlAME ON, Kiddies! I know that's whatcha like ta do! www.moviepoopshoot.com haven't you kids figured out who View Askew was referring to in that joke? JK WipEout
Still no answers. by IndustryKiller	Nov 11th, 2003 01:36:42 AM
Your right by saying that it still doesn't explain how Neo can use his powers in the real world. Ok so he has coontact with "the source" (which means nothing) so what? ALl of the sudden he now has powers outside of the Matrix. Thats ridiculous. It seems halfhazardly thrown in there because the Wachowskis thought it would be neat. Face it they never bothered to explain it. It's far mroe vague than anything in Vanilla Sky. In Vanilla Sky you know the whole story back to front, it's just up to you to determine whether it is ultimately a dream or not. Saying it's not the real world but instead the "machine world" is a fucking excuse if there ever was one. Machine world? Sentinels don't exist in any machine world they are made of metal. Thats like saying the computer I'm typing on now physically exists in some other world at the same time as this simply because it's not a person. And sentinels aren't made up of code aragorn. Programs inside a computer are made of code. Sentinels are real tangible objects that you can touch. The machine city isn't made of code so why could Neo see it? Yeah so Smith become a virus. How? Besides the fact that the Wachowskis needed an excuse to keep the character going. So when programs become obsolete and they don't go to the source to get deleted they just gain some random power ala the Twins? I suppose you could use that excuse but it's a pretty lame one. I won't even get into that anti-Neo bullshit. Yet another excuse to keep the Smith character going that makes no sense. I'm almos glad they did though because without Hugo Weaving excellent performance the movie would have been completely devoid of any talent. I agree with the statement that outside ide of Hong Kong (which you can't say doesn't count since there are some EXCELLENT Hong Kong films) Matricx has the best fights. Except for Revolutions which only had one decent fight in club Hell and that's it.
Still did't find out by mayaV	Nov 11th, 2003 03:09:12 AM
I feel free to say I don't get the whole thing. I also don't like the way Matrix developed in the sequels. Sure I saw worse movies and better ones. No big deal. It's fun talking about and finding some answers while other questions remain unsolved.
Yeah, but... did anyone else see that nipplecripple scene!! by TheAquabatman	Nov 11th, 2003 05:54:04 AM
Cleavage, cool fights, evil laugh, big black jackets, huge super cool machine man body armour, two hours and ten dollars well spent i reckon... or maybe i'm easily pleased. geesh you guys relax. The more i think about the gorgeous eye-candy the more i love it............. AWWWWWW its not so bad, once you get to know it..........
Osmosis, right on! by farquar	Nov 11th, 2003 11:23:07 AM
Osmosis Jones, I almost split a gut when you mentioned Marky Mark. He is the king of remakes and I'm VERY surprised he's not in "Flight of the Phoenix". This is one movie that doesn't need a remake-the original is a classic on its own. Actually I was surprised they didn't mention Will Smith as the lead, as he is usally the first name to come up in remakes and/or filming classic books: See "Wild, Wild West" for the former and "I, Robot" for the latter. The only thing that's gonna get me in the theater for "Phoenix" is Miranda Otto, who will make me a hypocrite about the remake deal. Rrworw!
industrykiller: more detailed explanation by ar42	Nov 11th, 2003 04:34:21 PM
The machines can all communicate with each other through some sort of wireless interface, as we see when the squids all receive the command not to attack Zion at the end of Revolutions, and at several other times in the trilogy. So there is a sort of "machine internet" going on. Now, the Matrix is its own little subset of the "machine internet," with its own rules and parameters, in the sense that human neural signals get sent back and forth between a central processor of some sort that governs the rules of the Matrix. There are at least two connections between the Matrix and the machine internet: the first is the door that the Keymaker opens for Neo in Reloaded, which connects him directly to "the Source", and the second is the train station run by the Trainman, subservient to the Merovingian who acts as a sort of "chief smuggler" of programs in and out of the Matrix. (How he got this position is open to speculation. Maybe the train station was a programming backdoor the Merovingian program discovered and monopolized?) Now, when Neo visits "the source" at the end of Film 2, he is either no longer in the Matrix or is at least touching a connection to the outside world through the Architect. Something happens here that is very nebulous, and I fully admit this is open to interpretation. But it obviously involves the Oracle-- at the end of her scene with Neo in Part 2 she says "You've made a believer out of me," and in part 3 she explains that she made a choice that caused her to have to find a new shell, something she seems very sad about. The Oracle also says her choice was to help Neo. Now, when Neo re-enters the real world it seems he can control a Sentinel. How? Remember that when he touched the source, his physical real world brain is jacked into the Matrix and thus directly connected to the Source and the Machine World. It seems highly likely that some program along the way (the Oracle?) was able to use this direct link to affect something in his brain. "Install new software", maybe (as we've seen even humans do) that allows him to pick up on the machines' wireless signals. When Neo first makes use of this ability the shock puts him in a coma, and where does he wake up? "Jacked in" to the link between the Matrix and the machine internet, wirelessly. It takes time and the loss of Neo's eyes before he can start to "see" other things connected to the Net. (Including Bane/Agent Smith, who has experienced a similar transformation in the other direction as evidenced by the Oracle: "He is your opposite, your negative.") However, an important point here which validates the argument is that NEO CAN SEE HIMSELF, visually indicating that he, too, is now part of the machine internet. More evidence is given in the shot during Neo's approach to the machine city when we see his glowing body touch the sentinels (right before Trinity says "gotcha") even though they are not physically touching him. His mind is linked to their systems, and that is why he can affect them. Now, there are still unanswered questions here, which you would have to rely on speculation to answer (How come he can only affect the sentinels and not, say, the big baby-face guy? Stronger encryption maybe? And what exactly did the Oracle do to Neo's brain that gave him this power?) But the underlying ideas behind what's going on make a whole lot more sense than people are giving them credit for.
Nice try but STILL nothing concrete by IndustryKiller	Nov 11th, 2003 08:26:08 PM
Ar42 I appreciate the though you put into this, I really do and it's a neat theory but thats what it is a theory. When I see words thrown around like "it seems" I get skeptical. Assuming that he downloaded some "new software" into his brain when he went through the source is sort of a stretch. It really just amounts to fan fiction. That also doesn't excuse the fact that now powers can be used in the real world. The thing about that is that it's the real world, and giving Neo superhuman powers is absurd and just cheapens the entire storyline. And all that shit that Neo can see isn't code. It's like some sort of ridiculous machine soul. they really just brought the story to some ridiculous heights that simply don't make sense. If machines have some sort of weird aura that they give off and human can gain superhuman powers inthe real world those are rules that needed to be established in the beginning, when they come at the end they are just laughable concepts. Aragorns theories about Agent Smith and simply accepting Neo as the one for the explaination are just retarded. It figures coming from someone who has hte name NEO in thier user name. Stick to mindless defending Aragorn let Ar42 handle the intelligent arguing.
The name Neo is in your user name and I'm supposed to take you s by IndustryKiller	Nov 12th, 2003 12:42:21 AM
Something tells me it was impossible to disappoint you with these movies. It seems like it would literally have been impossible for the Wachowskis to screw up in your eyes. I didn't say that Neo used magic or that the machines have souls, I'm just saying that whatever it actually was is just as pathetic. Neo is a human being unless he is in the Matrix so having any otherworldly power is ridiculous and decreases the films credibility. What was it the machines had then? It certainly wasn't code since it was all orange and glowing whereas code is scrolling green numbers. There is absolutely no reason why Neo should be able to see them and since youa re assuming he got some new power at the source then I'm not taking that as an answer. No one has explained anything it's all theories. Why? Because hte Wachowskis didnt bother explaining it. It's no more fact than Boba Fett escaping from the Sarlac Pitt, it's all assumed fan fiction. It seems people agree with me since overwhelming response is negative and the box office while decent for any other movie is very disappointing for the Matrix. Rumor is the studio is scrambling to get the DVD out before Christmas and they want to release it in a package because they don't think Revolutions would sell on it's own due to the negative reactions. This film is a disappointment, pure and simple. I don't even think you can deny that there are better routes the Wachowskis could have taken. And the acting and writing were terrible. And to answer a question posed at the top yes I could act better than that. Not that it's relevant since you shouldn't have to be abetter actor than the person onscreen to criticize them. Bad acting is bad acting. The same goes for the Jerry Bruckheimer action flick bad dialogue. I don't know how you can even stand our main characters taking a co-starring role with Morpheus (one of the best characters ever from the first film) is practically worthless and Trinity's death being one of the most anticlimactic and laughably written in event film history. Also the action that takes place almost entirely outside of the Matrix, which is what everyone liked about the first film. They basically ignored the story we care about in favor of thehorribly executed city of Zion. So even if it did make sense (which it doesnt) it would STILL be a bad film that will go down in history as disappointments right alongside the new Star Wars prequels (and I LOVE Star Wars so if I can admit that the prequels are bad you should be able to admit that the Matrix sequels are bad.)
The name Neo is in your user name and I'm supposed to take you s by IndustryKiller	Nov 12th, 2003 12:42:49 AM
Something tells me it was impossible to disappoint you with these movies. It seems like it would literally have been impossible for the Wachowskis to screw up in your eyes. I didn't say that Neo used magic or that the machines have souls, I'm just saying that whatever it actually was is just as pathetic. Neo is a human being unless he is in the Matrix so having any otherworldly power is ridiculous and decreases the films credibility. What was it the machines had then? It certainly wasn't code since it was all orange and glowing whereas code is scrolling green numbers. There is absolutely no reason why Neo should be able to see them and since youa re assuming he got some new power at the source then I'm not taking that as an answer. No one has explained anything it's all theories. Why? Because hte Wachowskis didnt bother explaining it. It's no more fact than Boba Fett escaping from the Sarlac Pitt, it's all assumed fan fiction. It seems people agree with me since overwhelming response is negative and the box office while decent for any other movie is very disappointing for the Matrix. Rumor is the studio is scrambling to get the DVD out before Christmas and they want to release it in a package because they don't think Revolutions would sell on it's own due to the negative reactions. This film is a disappointment, pure and simple. I don't even think you can deny that there are better routes the Wachowskis could have taken. And the acting and writing were terrible. And to answer a question posed at the top yes I could act better than that. Not that it's relevant since you shouldn't have to be abetter actor than the person onscreen to criticize them. Bad acting is bad acting. The same goes for the Jerry Bruckheimer action flick bad dialogue. I don't know how you can even stand our main characters taking a co-starring role with Morpheus (one of the best characters ever from the first film) is practically worthless and Trinity's death being one of the most anticlimactic and laughably written in event film history. Also the action that takes place almost entirely outside of the Matrix, which is what everyone liked about the first film. They basically ignored the story we care about in favor of thehorribly executed city of Zion. So even if it did make sense (which it doesnt) it would STILL be a bad film that will go down in history as disappointments right alongside the new Star Wars prequels (and I LOVE Star Wars so if I can admit that the prequels are bad you should be able to admit that the Matrix sequels are bad.)
I gave it a tought by mayaV	Nov 12th, 2003 03:46:32 AM
How can Neo communicate with the machines? We forgot that he still has all this plugs and interfaces of his days in the Matrix. The way people and the Matrix are interacting is through those interfaces. So why not now? Why not imagining some sort of wirelss possibility? Neo's been in the Matrix before - 6 times when I remember correctly - so he could have gone through some sort of evolution. *** His exsitence is almost the same like an AI with a human body. There are parts of him beeing more a programm than human. Maybe it's a deep plot-hole, but it makes me think. Plot-holes in most other movies don't.
The Foresight Power is not an Oversight... by xspider	Nov 12th, 2003 06:07:12 AM
Understand... it "is not" precognition. Neo "cannot" see the future. It is "postcognition". Neo can see what "has come to pass"... just like Agent Smith. Just like the Oracle. The Matrix has gone through six "incarnations"... each one essentially the same as before it... with the differences being reflections of individual choice. In the first movie the Oracle could see that Neo was going to knock over that vase because the six other times (or at least most of the other six) he did so. Neo wasn't "seeing the future death" of Trinity... he was remembering a previous one, a previous one in which he did not show up and catch her (she collides with a car in the "vision"). Neo can't see the actual death of Trinity coming... because its new. It hasn't happened before. And that right there is you're first major sign in the Matrix Revolutions that Neo is actually making a "change". He's actually doing what has never been done... and that always involves not knowing... it alwasy involves choice. The Oracle says that even she can't see past her own choices. In other words, she only knows what will likely happen if she makes a certain choice... be she's already seen the end result six times before. Choicing something "different", that brings about a "different" result and she cannot see that. It's why her statements are always "ifs" and "ors"... she only knows the results of some actions... those that have been taken in previous Matrix incarnations. The only stone cold certainty is that "all things that have a begining, have an end". That one thing that is beyond all choice... that one thing that is final. For if anything new is to begin, that which is old must surely give way.
Quite simple really, for what it's worth... by Pontsing Barset	Nov 12th, 2003 05:36:05 PM
... I've only seen each film once, and I really haven't devoted a lot of thought to the subject, but it all seemed pretty simple to me: When Neo "destroys" Agent Smith in the first film, it is as an 'avatar', or digital representation of his consciousness, yes? He is in fact a type of 'program', for lack of a more precise description, as are all human beings who are 'jacked in'. This is of course absolutely impossible, so for anyone to say that something "doesn't make sense" within the context of these films is absolutely ludicrous. What, you can suspend your disbelief for THIS part but that other shit,
Ah well.... by w1p30u7	Nov 13th, 2003 04:29:19 PM
I'm with Pontsing Barset on this one, I don't get your confusion or disbelief either, when it comes down to it. While I'm not totally satisfied with the ending, it's still the ending, and sure enough, as "integrated" as Reloaded and the game were, I'll bet there's a whole slew of new Matrix shit that will explain more of that "Universe." Either way, you wanted the Wachowskis to explain absolutely EVERY detail to you, well it just wouldn't happen. The film would get boring if there were parts where they stopped the movie and showed the Brothers W with a chalkboard with diagrams all over it defining the minutest detail. Not that that's what you're asking, but any "deep" explanation given during the films would be just as awkward and innapropriate. So you said you like the OG Star Wars a LOT, KILLER. Do you accept the whole explanation of the lightsabers' creation, with some sort of crystals and some wierd technology that was never explained in the original films? Hell, almost the entire SW Universe was made up by the fans, so is none of it a believable explanation of said universe? My point isn't to spite you, but hopefully you'll realize that as time passes, there will be more explanations of this shit, and while the W Bros definitely could have made a better movie out of Revolutions, I'm sure they and whoever they liscence the future books and games to will come up with some sort of explanation to it all. I like that Pontsing brought up the "science-fiction pretext" thing, too. It's all Science-fiction fantasy-- you just take it for what it is-- if you don't like it, that's your bag. What Mynameisnobody said is true too- you don't become the One, you ARE the One. But you aren't really the One until you believe it yourself. And who is to say (other than the W Bros) that Neo's realization of his capacity was actually the realization of the full extent of his abilities? No one ever said exactly what all being the One encompassed. He didn't realize he could fly until the end of the first movie... As for his "Sight," I think it is foresight, not a twisted sense of hindsight (after all, hindsight is 20/20). The only problem with it being, once again, not a very good explanation of that ability. But at the same time, it's FICTION. Why did Jack Napier kill Bruce Wayne's parents (in the movie at least; I'm not sure of the full extent of the story in the comics)? Is just being a crazy killer explanation enough? No, but it was accepted as that for the sake of context. In other words, "that's what happened. Deal with it, and move on to the real story." As for Neo not seeing the machines in green code, well, it just wouldn't have looked as cool. Plus, he wouldn't have been able to say "Trin, I wish you could see it! The light! It's everywhere" if everything were in code. He probably would've said something like "FUCK! Trin, everything is all Matrixy now! Whoa! Catch ya Later, Bill and Ted!!" Or something along those lines...

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