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Mr Beaks Has Seen 20 Minutes Of RETURN OF THE KING!!

I cannot wait by Easily Pleased	Oct 15th, 2003 07:11:24 AM
This sounds so cool. Oh and first, maybe
Primer! by CuervoJones	Oct 15th, 2003 07:12:53 AM
yes, i need this movie NOW. Aragorn for president.
And I seem to be Numero Uno. by Easily Pleased	Oct 15th, 2003 07:15:14 AM
But apart from that, how cool is this movie going to be!? What are we going to do when ROTK special Edition comes out (5 hours would be nice PJ!). This movie, coz it is one mother-of-a-movie brokem into 3 parts, is the best film experience I have ever had. LOTR was my favourite book and thanks to PJ and his immaculate cast and crew, it is my favourite film too. All hail PJ. All he has to do now is cast Bruce Campbell as the ironic male lead in King Kong and I can die a happy man. Regards
Relax about the Damn Oscar! by MPJedi2	Oct 15th, 2003 07:33:22 AM
All you people and your "It better win" bullshit need to breathe deeply. In a year with AMERICAN SPLENDOR, LOST IN TRANSLATION, MYSTIC RIVER and, yes, Breaks, SEABISCUT, I hardly think the race is cut and dried. Plus, who cares? If it's good, it's good, and with the bazillions of dollars it's gonna generate _in merchandise alone,_ I don't think a little man on the shelf is really the first thing on anyone's mind over at New Line.
I like the anticipation by kafka07	Oct 15th, 2003 07:36:22 AM
The anticipation is part of the fun of these movies so I am being patient. These movies were and continue to be a very cool movie experience, one of the coolest ever for me. The soundtrack comes out each November and gets you even more psyched; then there's the dvd extended editions to look forward to, which will be released in theaters at some point I am sure. It just keeps on giving. :-) I just hope they don't make too many changes from the book like they did with the first two films. That's the only thing I don't like, it just throws me off, jumbling the stories up like that. I know who dies in the Pelennor Fields in the book but I wouldn't be surprised if they change it to a different character. Hek they had Halbarad in the Two Towers film die at Helms Deep when he doesn't even appear until the third book. (I think I am remembering that right). And I hope Aragorn doesn't fight Sauron at the end because that just plain doesn't happen in the book.
Read about this on CHUD yesterday. However... by BigPoppi	Oct 15th, 2003 07:45:42 AM
This was much better. At least Mr. Beaks knows the names of the characters, places and objects of importance. "Smilin" Jack Ruby, though he admittedly said he's never read the books, really had no idea what was going on.
Bouncing Bear by Henry's Cat	Oct 15th, 2003 07:58:31 AM
Mr Beaks, I share your turning-30 pain. May I sggest that you and all the other aicn peeps check out http://www.komotv.com/qt and click on the bouncing bear. It's hilarious! PS. Lovely descriptions, can't wait until December
book vs film by prozactime	Oct 15th, 2003 08:00:50 AM
I know it's been said a thousand times, so one more doesn't matter: A movie is a movie! Read the book. Enjoy the book. Brood with the book... and then forget it when you're at the movies. I find that what really is GREAT with LOTR movies is that the whole experience is so REAL that, at the end, who cares if Shelob comes out in part 3 (instead of ending part 2 with her) or that the whole Hobbiton wreck by Saruman and Grima isn't shot. You get to SEE Gandalf and the Balrog falling, you get to see the Loss of the ring at the very beginning (Elrond in armour, for God's sake, and fighting!)... you get to see it all, and so well shot, that any transgressions with the book are forgivable. And by the way, who cares who the Oscar goes to. (Although having a 3rd part getting best picture would be something for the almanacs).
RE: Return of the King by JAGUART	Oct 15th, 2003 08:04:06 AM
As I write this, I'm lying here completely naked. I've set my waterbed temperature to 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, and filled it with a combination of amniotic fluid and cattle blood. I've plugged all my orifices with hunks of foam rubber and now suck oxygen through a SCUBA regulator. The room humidifier is on eleven and I'm covered with a thick layer of uncooked hotdogs. There will I incubate for the next two months. On the morning of December 17th I shall emerge anew, have my girlfriend at the ready slap my ass, shower up and head to the theatre, Reborn Once Again
"Oscar chances" by TheWoodMan	Oct 15th, 2003 08:11:20 AM
For Christ's sakes, will people just drop this already? It'll win the usual third-tier awards for effects, costumes, cinematography, etc., and THAT'S IT. And who cares? Why does anyone ascribe any credibility or importance to this joke of an award? "RotK" will go over huge with kids of all ages and make twenty zillion bucks at the box office; what else matters? Leave the "Academy" to their irrelevant, coked-out circle jerking and MOVE ON.
special edition rework with Georg by Cotillion	Oct 15th, 2003 08:11:35 AM
I heard that the special edition with all 3 movies will be turned over to Georg Lucas who already has some great ideas how things can be improved: - Gandalf will be recolored in a rainbow coat of pinkish-brownish-yellow to reflect all races, all references to "the white" will be eliminated - all hobbit scenes will be re-shoot with Warwick Davies playing all parts - the old guy at the battle of helms deep will not shoot first - Gollums will be called Jar Jar Gollum and the voice will be rerecorded (mee saaa haaapy meee waaanaaa riiinggaaa) - It turns out that Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins in the first degree and their wedding is off (they are actually cousins... altough with slightly off balance generations in between...)
Oh Lordy by Heleno	Oct 15th, 2003 08:30:26 AM
It is just not natural to be crying with anticipation of a film. Need to see this yesterday so I can go again today.
Also starring Hulk Hogan as Denethor's Servant by AndrewJuve	Oct 15th, 2003 08:35:08 AM
"You must be losing you mind, brother"
Everything I hear about ROTK is good. by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 15th, 2003 08:49:31 AM
I want the freakin movie released now!!! Cheers.
Oh, RoTK will get an Oscar all right... by rev_skarekroe	Oct 15th, 2003 08:59:01 AM
...an Oscar Mayer Weiner shoved right up it's gay elfy ass! Haw Haw! Ok, sorry, I got nothin'. sk
Oscar recognition IS very important by Sheeld	Oct 15th, 2003 08:59:22 AM
Not in the way that ROTK, or the other installments, need that recognition to warrant a place in history, or claim critical success. Of course not. These movies will be revered and loved forever, no matter what uncle oscars does with it. But it's really for the sake of the Academy that they DO bestow ROTK with the oscars it'll deserve. Best FIlm will be hard as it's not a completely stand-alone film, it's still a part three, but if they don't hand out mr. baldie to Peter Jackson, the reputation of the Academy will be forever tarnished. And I mean FOREVER. I don't care how well the other contenders are directed; no one ever attempted a project such as this, plus succeeding in it almost beyond belief. This has to be one of the alltime greatest directorial achievements, and if the Academy won't recognize this, they're dead. Really; regardless of all the other fuck ups (and there have been far too many), denying Jackson his oscar will be the ultimate downfall for the Academy. They won't ever be taken serious again, and all value of the oscar will disappear. Personally, I still hold the oscars in high regard. Not as the prize for THE best this or that of the year, but at least for one of the best, a great honour bestowed by fellow filmmakers. But if they deny PJ his oscar, even this firm believer will have no faith left, and what's more, the Academy will reveal itself as a completely inept institution, thereby losing all the merit it ever had. So Academy, be warned!
Drexxell, don't tell us you fell for that silly "spike" hoax? by minderbinder	Oct 15th, 2003 10:09:20 AM
Really, you think PJ would show off the death of a major character a couple years in advance? Just look at the picture, it's so schlockily done, you can even see an elastic strap holding the beard on. I hope you were kidding about being worried by this.
On Oscar, and on credibility, and on the permanence of the fanbo by Vegas	Oct 15th, 2003 10:29:03 AM
Okay, ROTK is going to be a good movie. And it will be the favorite movie of the year for many people. But if it does not win these awards, do you know what that's going to change? Nothing. It will still make a shitload of money, you'll all still be able to own it on dvd, and your lives shall continue in almost all respects unchanged from what they are today. Yes, Peter Jackson is a good director. Guess what? He's not the only one. There are lots of different movies, and many of them are wonderful for many different reasons. If ROTK were to win, there would be those who'd cry that Lost in Translation were robbed. Or Cold Mountain. Or The Last Samurai. Or the Alamo. Or even Kill Bill. I personally am cheering for Finding Nemo above all other challengers, but whether or not it wins? I'll still have to go to work on Monday. My life will be unchanged, as will yours. I agree that the Best Picture Winners of 2001 and 2002 were incorrectly chosen. But I personally believe they should have been the Royal Tenenbaums and Adaptation. Or maybe Memento and 25th Hour. Or maybe Moulin Rouge and the Pianist. Anyway, the thing is, even if ROTK doesn't win a damn thing, you'll all still watch next year. The Oscars have weathered far more grievous sins than not awarding a fantasy trilogy some little gold statue. They gave Best Picture to Kramer vs. Kramer over Apocalypse Now. They survived. They gave Best Actress to Julia Roberts over Ellen Burstyn. They survived. They never gave Best Director to Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, or (so far) Martin Scorsese. They still survived. Hell, they even survived that Benigni fiasco. Because though we hate it when they don't agree with us, we still hold out hope. We still do crazy things like hope for validation for a hobbit movie from an organization that supposedly lost all credibility when it rewarded Opie over the Kiwi (Should have gone to Wes Anderson that year anyway). So stop all the complaining and doomsaying, it rings hollow anyway.
PJ and Oscar by MPJedi2	Oct 15th, 2003 11:51:58 AM
The idea that PJ should get an Oscar "for the Academy's sake" is just so laughable. Look at that statement! Just look at it!! I mean, to echo a point, MARTIN SCORSESE DOESN'T HAVE AN OSCAR. Plus, _directing_ isn't all about shots and special effects. It's about getting performance out of actors, and in that regard LOTR & PJ cannot hold a candle to someone like Eastwood with MYSTIC RIVER. Or, let's talk about moving the medium forward. AMERICAN SPLENDOR totally re-defines the concept of structure by brilliantly melding drama with documentary. These are all worthy films, but grow up, look around, and realize that just because they made some incredible books, that many people place too much importance on, into some _really entertaining_ movies is not a mandate from God on high that awards should be given. Now, I want you all to note: I have not said _one bad thing_ about LOTR, they're great, but there are _many_ other great films this year. As to the guy who had to use this talkback as an excuse to take a stab at Lucas...can we keep to the point?
So how was Gimli humiliated in this one? by GypsyTRobot	Oct 15th, 2003 12:08:28 PM
I'm in a bad mood so PJ luvvers skip this post if you don't want to be pissy right back. Since dwarf tossing, excess gas, and falling off a horse have already been covered - my guess is a dwarf de-pantsing (debreeching?) in the P's of the D. Also I'm sure there will be more pimping of PJ's bad-acting kids, and the Witch King will have an even worse voice than he did in the cartoon version. Goddamn the good parts of this movie better be really good so it averages out OK. *** After watching FotR and TTT numerous times am I the only one who's realized that PJ's directing of human actors is not always that great??? When someone has a strong emotion, their eyes get really wide. That's PJ's one big directing chop. Different characters use the same inflections over and over, as in "you KNOW ". There are bad line readings like when Legolas says "You have led us this far you have not led us astray" (or words to that effect). There are stupid dramatic inserts like Aragorn going off the cliff and Sam almost drowning. People talk in a long drawn out matter so much, if they'd sped up the dialogue a bit the movies might be shorter by 15 minutes each. If PJ had handled the special effects and logistics while having a better director for the main actors, these movies would have been great works equalling some of the best movies ever made. I'm sorry, I love TTT dearly and I appreciate PJ's efforts, but I can't worship the man like some of you. These movies could and should have been better.
Now, now, Mr. Beaks. You will endure, you will survive. by WarDog	Oct 15th, 2003 12:09:04 PM
And when the clouds lift and the sun breaks through, it'll shine out all the clearer (or words to that effect.) Try revelling in the fact that you got to see this much before its release, you lucky dog. Man, just the preview is enough to make me pound the arms of my chair, waggle my head and go, "Wacka-wacka-wacka! ARF! ARF! ARF!" I have just one question: are they going to rename the reforged Narsil as it is in the books, Anduril, meaning "Flame or the West?" I would hope PJ didn't forget THAT. He's already on thin ice with thousands of LOTR purists for his changes in TTT.
I've already got my tickets for the Trilogy here in Seattle at t by Manaqua	Oct 15th, 2003 12:22:38 PM
Dec.16 can't come soon enough! yowza! M
RoTK won't win the Oscar for Best Picture by elfstoned	Oct 15th, 2003 12:26:27 PM
At least I hope not. Look at the pieces of shit that have won in the last few years - Chicago, Gladiator, A Beautiful Mind - utter crap all of them. My prediction for Best Picture? Seabiscuit - another load of manure masquerading as art.
Good job, Mr Beaks! by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 15th, 2003 12:40:53 PM
I think I would normally be worried about the whole Denethor thang, but you and SJR seem to dig it so much my anxiety is quietened a bit. So, we like the giant spider, do we? Hmm. Good. Good.
I know how Sauron dies... by JBurton	Oct 15th, 2003 12:47:23 PM
Aragorn gets his ass handed to him by Sauron for a good five minutes... Then Frodo gets the ring into Mt Doom... Then Aragorn throws down his sword and goes fisticuffs with Sauron. He begins to punch him in the gut lifting him off the floor with each blow. BAH-NAH! BAH-NAH! BAH-NAH! Then he picks up his sword and hacks off his head. This is gonna be Rocky all over again, mark my words...
What the hell are we going to talk about when there are no more by 007-11	Oct 15th, 2003 01:59:56 PM
What will fill the void?(sidenote: I thought Shelob would be bigger, looks sort of unimpressive in the trailer)
"Denethor by morGoth	Oct 15th, 2003 03:34:33 PM
Wouldn't want him coming off as some lightweight "touchy feely" father/high mucky-muck now would we? Hey folks, now you know what people have been talking about when they say "Better bring a BIG box of tissues to the theater!" The Lord of the Rings is a tragedy but it's also very uplifting. Well, depending on how PJ decides to end it. Thanks for the imminently enjoyable Mr. Beaks. Erm, I mean, Soul Man {[:^)
Oh man, thanks for that GypsyTRobot by morGoth	Oct 15th, 2003 04:52:02 PM
...the mental image of Legolas pulling Gimli
Hey, DrexxellTheNecro... by slone13	Oct 15th, 2003 04:59:50 PM
Shut up. You're annoying. And stupid. That's all. Oh, ROTK will rule them all.
The bouncing bear was very sad by GypsyTRobot	Oct 15th, 2003 05:03:19 PM
It precipitated me into an even deeper depression from which there is no escape. *** Actually I thought a bony hand would reach out, yank Gimli's pants down and pinch his big prosthetic butt. Yeah, That would really lighten the mood. of the movie, not my mood.
ah yes, the ol' "skillet upside the head"...... by magyarman	Oct 15th, 2003 11:28:37 PM

It's Wednesday! by Miami Mofo	Oct 15th, 2003 11:31:56 PM
NINE :~) weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! *Thanks Mr. Beaks. "And O! the rows of silver dishes / and the store of silver spoons! / For Sunday there's a special pair, / And these they polish up with care / on Saturday afternoons." **GO MARLINS!!!!!!!!!
obviously Mr. Beaks doesn't remember Frodo's "death" at the hand by magyarman	Oct 15th, 2003 11:36:58 PM
I can see it now: a bunch of fans who, like Mr. Beaks, haven't read the books in so many years that when they see Frodo "die" and then "come back to life" they will curse Peter Jackson for adding unnecessary plot twists, the same way they did over the whole Aragorn-falling-off-a-cliff-in to-a-river part of Two Towers (although granted, that wasn't in the book).
The only way this movie could win the Oscar... by Judge Doom	Oct 15th, 2003 11:39:39 PM
...Is by adding Tom bombadil! He should appear in Return of the King and team up with Gimli, kinda Scooby and Shaggy.
peter jackson by hanktallica	Oct 16th, 2003 02:29:06 AM
first, lotr rules so far. second, instead of king kong, who would like to see pete tackle the works of h.p. lovecraft? a good call of cthulu adaptation? frankly, i would shit my pants in glee. and i don't normally shit my pants. normally.
ROTK Oscar chances by krylite	Oct 16th, 2003 02:58:32 AM
Despite the gazillions this movie will make, Jackson and probably NL definitely want to win the big oscars next year. The pick-ups over the summer have focused on directing character scenes. While other directors are good in this year's slew of contenders, don't count Jackson out. If he was just Lucas-style sfx, FOTR and TTT would have no nominations except for the efx ones. Sure, the past best pics like Chicago and ABM were crap, but ROTK would have something in common with a best pic(hopefully nothing else) making gadzillions which would be that flashy fad Titanic.
you've all got the spike thing a bit wrong. by theThingFromTheS	Oct 16th, 2003 03:31:47 AM
there is a spike scene. but it coes not involve sauraman? it comes at the very end, when the host of the west is at the black gates. they are surrounded by thousands of orcs and things. then out comes SAURON
......CONTINUED.... by theThingFromTheS	Oct 16th, 2003 03:37:19 AM
the big cheese in mordor. a massive fight ensues. sauron kills loads of goodies. aragorn, fighting like a true king, hacks orcs heads a plenty. he finally reaches sauron. he tries his best, but the evil one is just too much for him. aragorn is about to fall from exhaustion. just then, gimili has an idea. he runs behind sauron and crouches down. this gives aragorn the opportunity he needs. he pushes sauron with all his might. sauron falls back over the the dwarf and onto a huge shiny spike (oo-er missus). dead at last, the story ends. oh yeah, sorry!!! SPOILERS.
Ah Drexxel, a question... by CellarDoor	Oct 16th, 2003 07:20:52 AM
...Perhaps you can help me. I have been long searching for The List. They say it shines like gold and smells of strawberrys. Do you not know it's name? It is the list of objectivity and there are only a few people who have access to it. They say that the fabled list details ALL objective knowledge of movies past, present and future. Many TBers know of what I speak for they have often displayed this knowledge. You must know of this list as you KNOW that PJ has fucked the story up. Where is the list dammit? I must find it or else all my future opinions are forfeit. Where is the list?!
Drexxell, I'll remember your post, and when RotK comes out and t by minderbinder	Oct 16th, 2003 08:27:48 AM
Just like the whiners who were so convinced that "PJ fucked the story up" by having Arwen swinging a sword at Helm's Deep. Of course these movies could be better (any movie could) or more like the books, but which director could/would have turned out a better product than PJ did? (much less one that's as true to the originals) Seriously, put forth a name. The books are practically unfilmable, outside of a wishful fantasy I can't imagine anyone making better versions of these stories.
Drexell, there will be no spikey wheel by JacksonsBane	Oct 16th, 2003 12:19:54 PM
PJ has thought better of this, just like he thought better of Arwen at Helm's Deep (which he filmed btw). So engage your brain and think about things before you post crap.
I find it rather curious SPOILERS... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 12:38:50 PM

Roger and copy that Skyway! by morGoth	Oct 16th, 2003 12:56:45 PM
I guess not everybody has been around over the years to have known about some of the stuff you mentioned. As for the Istari-kabob, a case could be made AGAINST Saruman falling to his death at Isengard as the Ent induced flooding would've washed all that stuff down into the great pit or completely away, yes? Just a thought...
ROTK's Oscar Chances by FloydGandoli	Oct 16th, 2003 01:08:52 PM
They are strong and here's why: we've had two years to realize just how good these films are. When some Oscar winners fade away after winning (The English Patient comes to mind), LOTR isn't fading. People realize Jackson's monumental achievement and have had 2 years to process it.
Good point Mr. asbestos britches... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 01:44:00 PM
... and the Ents ARE described as being very thorough. But might not one of the Saruman's 'infernal machines' in a pit near the base of Orthanc have been overlooked by Fangorn and his folk/survived the flooding? I'm not saying that this is the way it goes down. The bottom line is that we simply do not know. All I'm saying, given the fact that TSOTS is out, is the dreaded "Istar Kabob" really that big a deal to anyone other than hardcore purists? I think there's plenty of other stuff already in evidence to tweak THAT group of viewers. Yeah, you might say that it's an example of PJ sensationalizing certain events in the tale if he decides to go this route, but it really doesn't 'hurt' anything IMO. The expunging of TSOSTS is FAR more grievous as far as I'm concerned, but I also believe that The Scouring wouldn't really work all that well in the movie version.
In a homage to Christopher Lee's endless complaining, Saruman tr by Fred	Oct 16th, 2003 02:13:05 PM

Well, FloydGondoli... by MPJedi2	Oct 16th, 2003 02:58:51 PM
Here's where that logic fails. We've _not_ had two years to ruminate on the quality of these films. Not like THE ENGLISH PATIENT. Why? Because much like the Lucasfilm marketing/hype program, New Line has never let us forget that there was "more coming." See, we're all too busy waiting for the next film to think about the weaknesses (and, yes, Virginia, there are some) of what we've already seen. THE ENGLISH PATIENT came and went, there weren't books and games and action figures screaming "cultural event" at us in _every_ asile of the department store. The real question is why are there so many fanboys who seem to _need_ the Academy to validate that these films were/are as good as you've made them out to be in your own minds. I went, I liked, I bought the DVDs. I don't need anyone to validate me, or Peter Jackson.
rePUTED?! by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 03:13:48 PM
I don't even have the lousey excuse of it being a typo! The p is nowhere near the f on a qwerty keyboard, DOH! It should of course been: reFUTED
rePUTED?! by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 03:36:35 PM
I don't even have the lousey excuse of it being a typo! The p is nowhere near the f on a qwerty keyboard, DOH! It should of course been: reFUTED
But We All KNOW that SEABISCUIT Will Win at the OSCARS by Drath	Oct 16th, 2003 04:19:44 PM
I will happily eat crow if a Lord of the Rings movie wins the best picture Oscar, but I think the Miyazaki movie Nausicaa has a better chance of getting a mega Nation wide release from Disney. ROTK is a fantasy movie, and the sequel to a film that didn't win. It would be a huge first if it won, and it's clear the Academy lacks imagination for such a feat. If Peter Jackson gets the director's award, that'll be the extent of the recognition they will give outside of the technical categories. I am not saying this because I don't think the movie will or can be the best movie of the year, I just don't believe the Oscars is capable of recognizing it.
i was going to trash ROTK.... by MisterGrimloch	Oct 16th, 2003 04:47:40 PM
but i see that this talkback is already well secured with plenty of solid negativity for this overrated trilogy of films. thank god there is still sanity in the world (though certainly none at my house).
LOTR series setting new records for characters who "seemingly di by Gheorghe Zamfir	Oct 16th, 2003 04:58:38 PM
Crazy sonsofbitches.
The one thing that I still can't figure out of LOTR by Sheeld	Oct 16th, 2003 06:51:04 PM
is how Gandalf got his staff back after it was taken from him by Saruman and he flies off of Orthanc. It's not like he has more than 1 of those, like tennis rackets, right? Or did he carve a new one in some spare time? Now, I'm not bashing here, just wondering. And as for my warning to the Academy: that was only semi-serious of course, I just really hope he gets it, s'all.
The Return of the Hobbit Lass by elanor	Oct 16th, 2003 07:24:16 PM
Hello to almost all (ciao to DoT) and ptthhhttt to the usual trolls. I am back from my journey to the wilds. Saw bears and wolves and bison and heard endlessly bugling fighting. Great hiking this trip and now I must stay home for a while and endure the immensely exciting and frustrating build-up to the glory that will surely be ROTK. Nice report, Mr. Beaks and thanks for your non-spoiler version. A big smooch to the tailenders, esp my brothers Moaters and morG and nice to see wicked sister Alice again, too!***Ebonic, you always crack me up. Sheeld, I caught your Oscar humor - don't let these crabby asses worry ya. As for Gandalf's staff - my opinion is that it is something of a continuity error in the film but it's one that kinda exists in the book, too, in a way. One could just as well ask, why doesn't Saruman confiscate Gandy's staff when he has him cornered? It doesn't bother me a whit and I have conveniently rationalized that when he slid off Gwaihir in Lorien, Galadriel's elves helped him whip up a new one. And I assume Saruman tossed the old grey staff down a hole into an orc fire. There was speculation for a time that one could notice a difference between the pre and post Orthanc staffs but I never saw any. If Conan were here, he would say "cheers"!
No worries Sheeld... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:37:53 PM
... but the answer to your question is actually quite simple: After Gandalf vanquishes the Balrog, his immortal Maiar spirit [Olorin] actually vacates the 'physical vessel' [body] that is 'Gandalf the Grey'; in essence 'dies' out of the physical plain, (perhaps the form was too badly damaged in his battle with the fire demon for him to continue his task in ME(?); IE: Rallying the free peoples against Sauron). He subsequently is 'sent back' [to physical life in ME] by the Valar as the 'White' Istar (VS the 'Grey' that he was before) in essence replacing Saruman. In a sense, he IS Saruman, as he SHOULD have been. He, Gandalf the White thus has a new body, new (or will have) staff, new 'office', new everything. He is then rescued from Zirak Zigil (they peak where he fought the Balrog) by the great eagle Gwaihir who has come searching for him at the behest of Galadriel, and is flown to Lothlorien where he is garbed in white by the Elves and given a cloak and brooch like the ones gifted to the rest of the Fellowship by the Galadhrim in FOTR. (Take a look at the scene in T2T where he is summoning Shadowfax outside the eaves of Fangorn Forest and you will notice the cloak and brooch.) I always assumed that he fashioned a new staff for himself whilst 'recuperating' in Lorien. It seems that PJ & Co. had the same impression, as the style and execution of the staff (the symbol of his office) of Gandalf the White in the films, (very different from the rough stick he bore as Gandalf the Grey) quite obviously reflects the same design aesthetic as the structures and accoutrements seen in the cinematic Lothlorien.
GAK! Feisty Hobbit lass shows up just in time to beat a poor old by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:40:45 PM
WELCOME Ealanor dear! How you dooin'?
And I BLEW it to boot!... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:47:37 PM
Dang, where DOES he get another staff after Saruman confiscates the frIst one? Elanor's probably right about him 'aquiring' a replacement in Lorien but if I'm not mistaken, JRRT never even adresses the issue. morG? Any input?
Grimloch admits the truth by hildebrand	Oct 16th, 2003 09:08:43 PM
Ah, a confession. It is good to unburden one's soul to the common masses, admitting such failings is the first step toward a real recovery. The question of course is how deep the insanity runs. Yes, yes, you will try to foist this off on the wife or children (if you have procreated, that is), but of course that is the first sign of repression, and that could signal a less then full willingness to seek a true breakthrough. Ah, I wish I was your therapist, I would become rich beyond the dreams of avarice on your sessions alone. God speed, gentle person, we are pulling for you.
Now that Harry is to be a producer... by hildebrand	Oct 16th, 2003 09:11:30 PM
...perhaps he could produce a talkback that does not get all funky in its ordering. Gads, nonetheless, look to the middle of the talkback to see my diagnosis of a troll.
Unexpected death of a character? by Miami Mofo	Oct 16th, 2003 09:31:51 PM
Either Mr. Beaks HAS forgotten about Theoden, or else someone else bites the dust which will come as a complete surprise. I vote for Elrond! [But I'm sure Mr. B. DID forget about T.] *Hola e - welcome back. *morGy, thanks for trying.
test by Mikah Kurtz	Oct 16th, 2003 10:11:04 PM
Sorry, I haven't posted in a while and I wanted to make sure this was still active.
Sauron vs. Aragorn by Mikah Kurtz	Oct 16th, 2003 10:21:06 PM
OK, let me start off by saying that I'm a huge fan of the books, read them hundreds of times and I'm not bothered at all by the changes in the movies. A literal translation of the books would not have worked. OK, maybe I'm a little bothered by how quickly Faramir converts after a somewhat cheesy speech by Sam about 'there's some good in the world and it's worth fighting for' but I think Peter will fix this in the EE. My point here is the much rumored fight between Aragorn and Sauron would not only be cool but it is in the books. It's in the Silmarillion. Except it's one of Feanor's sons (can't remember his name) and he fights Morgoth. Imagine if he did it just like that story. Dispair sets in, all is lost. Aragorn jumps on a horse and rides to the black gates, banging on the gates and challenging Sauron to come forth, and he comes. Also remember, Peter has always promised us that we will see Sauron unmasked before the end of this. We have to, really.
Special hola to my dear Miami by elanor	Oct 16th, 2003 10:56:34 PM
Oy - I should never start naming names, I always leave someone out! And of all folk, Miami who always makes me giggle with his (efe). I also left out another important word in my last post, though only those animal-watching geeks among us would care: ELK - endlessly bugling and fighting elk. There. Ah me. As for the Sauron vs Aragorn - I remember PJ grousing about how hard it is/was to portray Sauron since Tolkien made him a giant flaming eye-ball and I do think he thought about and perhaps filmed a physical fight but I think he has long since changed his mind. I do not expect to see Sauron in physical form at the Gates but I do expect some new expression of his nasty form at a certain fiery moment if ya know what I mean - some big threatening shape reaching out, yes, beyond the ole-flaming slit (heh heh mortsleam). I hear what your saying about the Fingon/Morgoth fight (it was Fingon, wasn't it?)and since I have been so thrilled by the imagination shown by PJ & Co. I would probably enjoy seeing such a fight on screen. But on another level I would still prefer it if the movie does NOT got there as I fear it might ultimately come off a bit cheesy and also it would take away from Frodo's sacrifice.*BTW, I agree with Miami that it is probably T's end that Beaks has forgotten.I have had to give up on going to Trilogy Tuesday as the tickets to my cinema were sold out while I was OOT and I didn't have a chance. That's really OK as I could not have takem the whole day off work anyway. I am determined to see the SEV's on the big screen though, in the weeks prior to ROTK's release. Also, I am thoroughly convinced that we will have ample opportunity to watch them marathon-style in the months to come.**I hope to see some of the tb'ers from that last, well, second to last at least, tb - raw bean, devil's own, irritable, djinn and... shoot - see? I shouldn't start with the names - I've already forgotten several. Well, all you newbie guys and gals from the free will tb - c'mon back!
when Saruman is skewered by djinnj	Oct 16th, 2003 11:06:09 PM
d'ya think we'll get any representation of the misty form rising up, looking to the west, and then blowing away? Oooooh, I hope so.... One of my favoritest parts. // Hi Elanor, et al! Been lurking, waiting for the Olag-hai to disperse.
When will one be able to preorder the 3-movie set? by Flatus Maximus	Oct 16th, 2003 11:32:58 PM
I want a low price for it! I also can't wait for ROTK! I'm bored with entertaining myself by lying to gamers who won't read the books; telling them Cthulhu shows up (summoned by Saruman) and consumes everybody (except a few of Ghan-Buri-Ghan's folk, who evolve to be Lovecraft, Tolkien, and Jackson) and then goes and takes another billion-year nap in R'lyeh. I want this movie NOW!
Gandalf's staff (yeh, shut up, I know what you're thinking you s by Cherub Rock	Oct 17th, 2003 12:48:10 AM
re Skyway Moaters, in the book Gandalf doesn't lose his staff, he's escorted up stairs to the top of Orthanc where he is held captive and then escapes in much the same way as the book. so its Jacko, not Tolkien, thats got some explaining to do. btw, to whoever posted that rant about comic book adaptations sticking it to the purists, i see your point but it's pretty irrelevant. just because other movies are less faithful to their source material (which is a different medium, no less) doesn't make departures in this one acceptable. I am grateful for what Jackson has given us, for sure, and i never woulda dreamed it would have been filmed on this scale, but anyone who has loved the books for years can't help but occasionally imagine how much better it woulda been if it was faithful. Besides, the fact that purists even exist in the target audience for these films has meant that they have stayed fairly on track. check out movies of books no one cares about and you'll see what i mean!
I'm skulking around Elanor, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 17th, 2003 01:37:25 AM
Just laying low after a bit of written stoushing with a number of morons. Anyhoo, it was Fingolfin, the high king of the Noldor (and the half-brother of Feanor) who had the duel with Morgoth, after he was extremely pissed off after the Dagor Bragollach (the battle of unnumbered tears...) How'd that go anyway MorGy, still a bit sore are we? I quite agree, nice report Beaks. Are Quints reports going to surface now that lots of ROTK spoilers are being released or are they still under edict? And as Elanor rightly pointed out, Cheers.
So poor Pippin is not spared the ordeal by Sabster	Oct 17th, 2003 04:54:15 AM
of singing for Denethor? I wonder what song he
Hullo there, ladies and gentlemen! by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 17th, 2003 05:27:58 AM
Nice to see you! I'm back again, after many adventures. In any case, my own holdout for songs has always been Sam's song in the Tower, which I can't actually remember off the top of my head. Though they did let him do his bit of poetry about Gandalf and Lorien, so they might, they might. As for "it could have been adapted better"... well, I dunno. The things that I personally consider important could have been given priority, certainly - which would have led to a more hobbit-centric movie with a kickier-ass Frodo - but then someone into the more war-focussed aspects or the Elven aspects might have been disappointed. I don't agree with every decision that's been made in the adaptation, some of them I strongly disagree with, but since it doesn't change LOTR the books in any way at all, a movie is just icing on the cake. And I do love the movies, very much. They give me joy and it seems mean-spirited to knock them for a few things I think are wrong (especially when you can produce people that think the things I hate were very right and perfect and all) so in a way it's kind of pointless to debate it. But anyway, yes, "The Choices of Master Samwise", please. With songs. And Nekkid!Hobbitry. Or at least topless. See, there's something they shouldn'ta changed right there...Or at least white-shirted, if we're going to stick to a 12a rating.
Minderbinder: "Which director could have turned out a better pr by Commando Cody	Oct 17th, 2003 06:54:50 AM
Hey, I think PJ did a great job -- and not to take anything away from his work -- it's still just an interpretation. I like the movies...over time, they've grown on me a bit (I don't find them the end-all of cinema, but they're fun). However, along those lines, I'm certainly NOT prepared to kiss PJ's ass to the point that we somehow conclude he's the ONLY director in all of Hollywood (or the world) who could film and craft a good LOTR trilogy. You want a name? I'll give you 2. I think had Speilberg or Cameron emotionally thrown themselves into the trilogy they would have done exceptional jobs, where each final trilogy would have exuded their own interpretative spirit as well. Would they have been "different" from what PJ has wrought? Undoubtedly, such is the difference of differing artistic eyes. Would they be just as "good"? I'd be willing to bet so. Hell, Cameron would've not only directed them great (a Cameron version of the Helm's Deep battle would probably kick some serious ass), but he'd have most likely crafted 3 superb screenplays as well.
What's this I hear? by Eternal	Oct 17th, 2003 07:26:50 AM
Sauron and Aragorn fight?? Sauron unmasked?? This sounds rather exciting. I'm not a LOTR purist so any improvements that're made are fine with me (Arwen/Flight to the Ford, not withstanding). I was always in favor of changes to the ending - specifically, Sauron's rather anti-climactic demise. The original finale is not very satisfying IMHO, and on the big screen I'm sure many would feel cheated. It seems PJ might feel the same way if these rumors are true. I hope they are. (But maybe just extensions of the Palantir scene and don't take place on the battlefield?)
Spielberg presents: James Cameron's LOTR by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 08:30:08 AM
Well, as I've said in other TBs - yes, these movies aren't perfect but they could have been a hell of a lot worse. I think PJ's FOTR is as good an adaptation you would get. And I remain convinced that there's a great movie buried inside TTT - or at least lying on PJ's cutting room floor. ** Mikah Kurtz: yup, I agree with you about Sam's schmaltzy speech. I was crushed when I first heard it - all the more because PJ had specifically promised in an interview (which you can read on TORN) that he would avoid sentimentality like the plaque. Even Sean Astin was reluctant to perform the "some good in the world" speech as he was afraid it was too cheesy - but PJ went ahead with it anyway. To Astin's credit, he tried his best to make the lines work - but I really feel that this was a moment when the actor should have stood his ground and defended his character's dignity. *** Commander Cody: it's interesting to speculate as to how LOTR would have turned out in another director's hands. I'd say that with Cameron, the action scenes would have been better - Helm's Deep would have been thrilling. But I don't think he would have got the character interaction right - particularly the brilliant scenes between Bilbo, Gandalf and Frodo in the first part of FOTR. With Spielberg, the sentimentality would probably have got completely out of hand. I think that neither of them would have captured the spirit and texture of Tolkien's work - which PJ does so magnificently in FOTR. And they probably wouldn't have filmed in New Zealand... Imagine if Lucas had directed!!!! The entire thing would have been filmed in front of a bluescreen with the actors standing around like dummies, speaking terrible lines.... Er, come to think of it, some scenes in PJ's TTT are a bit like that...
Wonders never cease... by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 17th, 2003 09:00:05 AM
Incredibly enough, I agree with Orson, at least about Spielberg. It would have been a proper maudlin schmaltz-fest. Regarding Cameron, I think he would have been the best second-choice. The whole thing would have been a bit more action-oriented though, and since I never thought the action was the best bit, I might have ended up disappointed. As for Lucas... you know, he could have been kind of interesting in some ways, providing he didn't write the adaptation or direct any actors. He would almost certainly have leant away from the location shooting, making the whole thing look more artificial, but he does have distinctive visual taste and an eye for fantasy environments. Whatever you say, parts of TPM and AOTC looked gorgeous, at least until anyone opened their mouths, and there was some fantastic sound design going on. Actually, though, I think Ridley Scott might have done an interesting job - he can do very immersive, atmospheric movies with attention to detail. All water under the bridge of course now, but still, interesting to think about.
Does big box office = great movie? by Strangefellow	Oct 17th, 2003 09:03:41 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else think that these movies aren't as good as they're made out to be? I dunno what it is, I thought the first movie was pretty good, but the second one just didn't grab me. I mean sometimes these movies can get pretty hokey. Personally I don't find battles and sword fighting very interesting unless they've got some story behind them. And I actually prefer the old cartoon version of Lord Of The Rings, which at least had some funky animation. At this stage I'm not that stoked for Return of the king, though I'll definitely rent it on video.
Lucas, Bakshi etc by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 09:26:13 AM
Alice, although I loathe Lucas' recent work, I also think that he can stage pretty good action scenes - and I hate to say this, but this is one thing he possibly does better than PJ......aaaaggh, that hurt. **** What I would really love to see would be John Boorman's version of LOTR! Sure, he was planning to do it as only one film, but I'm convinced he would have made something brilliant. Like Harry, I am a huge admirer of his work on Excalibur.** Strangefellow, I sort of know what you mean but I have to disagree with you: I think FOTR is a superb adaptaion of Tolkien's book, particularly in the first hour - which is mesmerising. (BTW, have you read the books?) Yes, TTT has many faults and these have been discussed ad nauseum - BUT: you have to remember that this project was originally conceived as TWO movies - not three. So in a sense, TTT suffers from having been shoehorned in at the last minute, which, in my opinion, is why it has gone a bit wobbly. My personal feeling is that PJ should have stuck with his original plan to do two movies - OR - take an extra six months to do a proper screenplay for all three. Also, the one movie per year schedule was definitely unrealistic - I would prefer to wait an extra six to twelve months between each release if this meant that the end result was better. In any case I remain cautiously optimistic about ROTK. Although it is impossible to judge from a trailer, I still can't help but be impressed by the one for ROTK (have you seen it? - the best trailer EVER!). So I feel fairly confident that ROTK will be better than TTT - though I sincerely doubt if it will reach the heights of FOTR. *** Re: Bakshi's LOTR: yup, I am a fan of Bakshi's version as well. Although it is flawed, it also has many terrific moments - and in some respects is better than PJ's version.
Orson... by Strangefellow	Oct 17th, 2003 09:38:59 AM
Thanks for replying to my post, Orson. Yes, I read the Lord Of The Rings when I was a kid but it's quite a few years ago and frankly, I couldn't tell you if the movie adaptatioin is 100% accurate . I haven't seen the ROTK trailer yet but I'll judge it when I see it. Yeah, I can see how TTT might have been a last-minute job because they seem to spend their whole movie just filling in time. As I remember it, the cartoon version had a lot more tension and better sword fights. I did like the attack of the ringwraiths in the old tower in FOTR though.
Sold Out Lord of the Rings Trilogy by LordZanthos	Oct 17th, 2003 10:45:12 AM
As I'm sure you know, LotR is selling out everywhere. For good reason too. Here in my city, the trilogy is being shown on one screen. That means that most fans won't have the option to see the trilogy in all it's glory. After considering this, I decided it was time to act, and I created an online petition to request New Line showing the Trilogy on more screens. The URL is http://www.petitiononline.com/ 116379qm/petition.html Please help me get the word out. New Line needs to know how important this is. Is it really reasonable for anyone, be it Studio, theater, or whoever else is making such a half-hearted attempt to believe that a set of blockbuster movies like LotR, which appeals to many different demographics would only need on theater to be shown on? I know a lot of people who thought it would be good to see, just because it really is a once in a lifetime opportunity. To this end, I would like to make the simple suggestion that we begin by first signing my online petition, then inundating New Line Cinema with POLITE e-mails (webmaster@newline.com), phone calls (310-854-5811), mail (116 N. Robertson Blvd., St.. 200 Los Angeles, CA 90048), etc. We need to do this until they listen. This is an event that will never happen again, it
The Double-Edged Sword. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 17th, 2003 10:59:40 AM
Months ago, I took my first tentative steps into the AICN Talkback. I hoped to connect with fans interested in the same entertainment as myself (esp. LotR). Since that time, I've spent my share of time at the Talkback, and have indeed encountered some very cool people I have been honored to interact with. Whenever I feel like getting away from ordinary, everyday routine and want to see what my fellow genre fans are thinking, I come here and go to town. Believe it or not, I've learned much from my experiences here. In my ongoing quest to observe and get feedback from movie lovers everywhere, I have attained enlightenment in the integral dichotomy of the fan mentality, the pros and cons of this particular forum which allows us to voice our opinions. There are pitfalls. I made some rookie mistakes and was sternly rebuffed, but quickly learned with careful phrasing and common sense, you can actually meet nice people who I enjoy hearing from and, in a perfect world, would love to hang out with. But the most important lesson I've learned is to take most everything said here with a HUMONGOUS grain of salt. Because of the anonymity the Talkback provides, apparently quite a few of the fellas who post here are ten feet tall and bullet-proof with Ph.Ds from M.I.T., and some of the ladies are enchanted Faerie princesses or Goth-goddesses (or that's how I like to visualize them!). Statistics to the contrary aside, I have a very real concern that someday I'll get burned-out on the concept. We'll see. In the meantime, as many folks have pointed out, LotR will soon come to an end. Does this mean cats like Grimloch will wink out of existence? I doubt it, but at least they'll have to work a little harder to find excuses to print diatribe about it. And who knows, they might even conduct themselves like decent people.
Other Possible LOTR Directors by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 11:13:38 AM
I
"I think had Speilberg or Cameron emotionally thrown themselves by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 11:16:46 AM
Let's see...Spielberg wanted to make Harry Potter with Haley Joel and set it in America. Don't get me wrong, he could probably make a decent LotR, but it wouldn't be a tenth as faithful as this version. And Cameron? I'm sure he'd nail the action, but hell, he had people talking like present day and giving each other the finger in Titanic. If you hated "nobody tosses a dwarf", just imagine what Cameron would do to the dialogue. It's a tough job. Most "drama" directors wouldn't be able to handle the action, and most action directors would totally botch the drama. And I doubt there are many directors who are familiar and respectful enough with the books to want to remain even remotely faithful to them.
Thanks for echoing my thought, Minderbinder by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 11:24:37 AM
Good to know I'm not the only one. And Hi and Welcome Back to Elanor and Alice!
Directors by hildebrand	Oct 17th, 2003 12:40:26 PM
There is an interesting confluence of needs for this story, and a director would need to have strengths in many areas. Fantasy, War movies, Drama, Quest legends, etc. Get a director to who moves to strongly in one direction and you lose the scope of what Tolkien was attempting with this story. Terry Gilliam would have been an interesting choice, but I think that the 'humanity' of the characters might have been lost. He would have nailed all of the moments of fantasy and horror, and would have done well with Frodo's quest (Gilliam I think does well with that type of tragic-heroic figure), but may not have known what to do with Aragorn. I would agree that Spielberg would have fallen off the wagon regarding sentimentality, and may have dodged some of the necessary bad things that occur. The endings of A.I. and Minority Report were simply cop-outs. Cameron? Nope, I simply do not like the rather set-pieceish way in which he moves through a movie. I wonder if there are some directors of more of the dramatic type of movie that may have done some interesting things with the story, folks like Frank Darrabont (sp?) Franco Zeferelli, heck, just for fun, Martin Scorsese. Just idle thoughts, just a bit of wondering out loud. But I think that looking at the big action type directors would not have been the way to go.
Ridley Scott hasn't directed fantasy? by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 12:48:46 PM
What about LEGEND? Look, this Monday-morning quarterbacking can be fun, but let's face facts. It was pure luck that Jackson succeeded with his pitch on this. With one studio flop, FRIGHTENERS, under his belt, it's astounding that New Line said yes. Who else had tried? Who else cared? That's the point. Spielberg, Lucas, Cameron and Scott could've got this made if they wanted to. These are all men who's work I respect, and would've brought something magic. To damn Spielberg for HOOK, one of, what? Thirty fantastic films? Crazy. It would've been more sentimental, but the _entire_ audience would've been in tears, not just the faithful. (Please don't argue this, it's my observation) Boorman would've knocked it out of the park, visually. Moreso even than Jackson. Look at EXCALIBUR again, compare the early scenes with the battle at the end. It's very similar to the changes that need to go on during the course of LOTR. The idea of one film was misguided and optimistic, but, like Lucas with STAR WARS, there was no guarantee of another chance. I almost feel like the best choice would've been to split the films up. Spielberg for FOTR, John Millius for TTT, and splitting the job on ROTK. Now, the other interesting topic brought up here is that God-awful Sam speech in TTT. What kills me, and I'm _not_ a purist, is that it betrays the character. Sam is a simple person with a huge heart, for him, _it's about his promise._ Nothing larger. That's why the boat scene at the end of FOTR is so wonderful and affecting. _It's true and honest to who Sam is._ That damn speech, alas, is not. It did, however, kill time, helping TTT reach the fan-mandated 3-hour point.
RE: Mikah Kurtz by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 12:58:15 PM

Oh yes, I forgot about "Legend" by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 01:16:39 PM
Tom Cruise tries to save a unicorn and Tim Curry wears a Holloween mask. Still, I never said Ridley Scott was a bad choice...morGoth, I think Mikah was just saying that if one had to film a Sauron/Aragorn confrontation, transposing the Dagor Bradollach smackdown would be a good way to go. Except without the whole good guy dying thing.
Waves to elanor-lass and Alice... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 01:30:25 PM
...greetings ladies, glad to see you found your way back! Of course, the trollers will accuse me of "you-know-what" just for acknowledging your presence. Nopers, I can
mortsleam... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 01:33:11 PM
...ah, I see what you mean and if that's the case, I see what Mikah is saying now. Hey, I never said I was the sharpest chard coal stick in the box! Don't get me wrong, I think it would be astoundingly cool too but I hope it doesn't happen for many reasons. The LA scene was good enuf fer me!
Gilliam, Bakshi, Scott etc... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 02:45:21 PM
Well, morGoth - I know we've been over the Bakshi thing many times - but I think I can rid you of at least ONE reason to hate poor Mr. Bakshi: he has vehemently insisted on several occasions that the false promotion of "Lord Of Th.." was entirely the doing of the studio and that he was angrily opposed it. According to Bakshi, it was this dispute along with others which caused the rift between himself and the studio and prevented Part II from being made. The non-appearance of Part II was not, as is popularly believed, because Part I was a financial failure. Bakshi claims it took $80 million worldwide (with a production budget of $10 million). Boxofficemojo credits it with a US take of $30 million - so I imagine it took at least that much again in the international market - definitely covering its costs. **** I agree 100% that Gilliam should be director of The Hobbit. For proof, I name Exhibit A: Time Bandits. I think Gilliam would definitely have a feel for the material and he is on record as being an admirer of Pj's work on LOTR. The Hobbit is more light-hearted and far less textured than LOTR - and I think the movie version should reflect this - rather than trying to make it as serious as PJ's movies. I don't actually think that PJ himself should direct The Hobbit - not now after doing three LOTR movies. He will definitely be suffering from LOTR burnout and should probably steer clear. *** Ridley Scott has proved with the mediocre LEGEND that he would have been the wrong person to direct LOTR. However, perhaps he would have learned from his mistakes on that film and made a decent LOTR. One thing's for sure: it would have LOOKED really good, but I'm not so sure he would have got the characters right. Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Alan Lee also do the design for LEGEND?
"It was pure luck that Jackson succeeded with his pitch on this. by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 03:27:44 PM
Luck? Sure, some. But I'm sure it didn't hurt that he walked in the door with a completed screenplay and a reel of test FX shots he paid for out of his own pocket.
minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 03:47:04 PM
Are you joking? Have you ever been in a pitch meeting? Oh wait, I forgot where I am...Of course you haven't. What we have here is a basically unknown director from down under, with a respected indie flick, a few gross-out horror movies, and a horror/comedy for a major studio that, to put it generously, under-performed. He wants to undertake one of the most expensive film projects of all time. In a genre that has, historically, been box-office poison. He shows up with this _massive_ script full of a whole bunch of fanboy garbage. Mithril? What the fuck is that? Sauron and Saruman? They're the villians? Christ? Can you change one of the names? They are pretty similar. Yeah, nice footage too. You should kiss the ass of the New Line exec who saw through all of that to the value of the project. In a time when the company was not on the most stable ground, financially. Speilberg walks in with just the concept - BAM! Greenlight. Yeah, I'd call it luck, insane amounts of it.
Many Happy Returns by Pallando Blue	Oct 17th, 2003 03:53:34 PM
I was off doing a bit of travel meself, only to find the site impossible to access to past coupla days. Whizzin like a bullet today, tho! So, I post. And screw the workload (until I'm caught, or around 4:00, whichever comes first)! Howdy all other returners! And file the purists and trolls and whiners under "Everything New Is Old Again." Comforting, in a way. AICN without venting assholes would create an unhealthy build-up of excrement and foul gasses in the real world, is my guess. Whatever keeps em from shooting up the office/gym class, I sez! * The One Big Thing missing from an LOTR by another director would be, IMO, Weta Workshop. Moreso than the incredible advances by Weta Digital, which ILM--had a director pushed them in the correct, dramatic directions--surely has the tech specs and budgets to match. But Richard Taylor's Weta Workshop has raised the bar in practical FX, design, costume, make-up etc. All the Real Stuff that's on film before the computers get ahold of it. The bar just wouldn't be ATTEMPTED to these heights for LOTR by anyone, except perhaps Rick Baker Studios, and then only in the make-up. Let's not underestimate the uniqueness of one house doing ALL the design work, AND construction. Whatever else they may bring to the project, Spielberg, Cameron, Scott, Zemeckis, etc. would have prepoduction going on ALL over the town. Look in the long end credits of their films, I may be wrong but isn't there usually something like Creature Make-Up by [an FX house name, list of its employees], Costumes by [different business, list of its employees], and on and on. Instead, we have it all done under one roof, from Rohirrim helm and shield motifs to 2 or 3 races of orc prosthetics to 2 sizes of proportional Bree tableware. And a completely immersive world because of that. Now, Lucas has the luxury of his own in-house do-everything FX/design factory--he's the OTHER guy on the planet who does--but the physical FX department at ILM has been, well, shoddy, almost lazy going all the way back to ROTJ. I remember being 13, seeing those rubber pig-faced Jabba guards that could barely move, much less wiggle exactly four stiff facial muscles, and thinking, "Man, they didn't try at ALL." Just look at the 5 steps backward the Yoda puppet took in realism from 1981 to 1999. And every other non-digital lifeform--there's LESS detail in the costumes than the pixels (something that pisses me off to no end, and I ENJOY the prequels!). So, ILM doing digital = good; ILM doing latex = not so much. .....Actually, this does all come back around to PJ, whose overriding dictum it was from the beginning to "Make It Real." Who of those directors being mentioned as What Ifs would have strived so hard for verisimilitude over the fantastic? (Who would develop all the height tricks, like moving forced perscpetive, and who would hire Warwick Davis?) Or would the Fantastic have been heightened, being the director's Fantasy Movie, as opposed to a historical drama? Would Scott be in Legend mode as mentioned, or Gladiator? Would Spielberg have been thinking Hook, or Amazing Stories, or Saving Private Ryan? ...And which of them would only have on their composer short list John Williams and Danny Elfman? So, yeah, I think we LOTR fans caught lightning in a bottle with Jackson and Co. No, not flawless, and no, not the same choices I would have made in all places. But damned if we'd have ever have gotten anything better. * Now then, REAL problems. I have my Trilogy Tuesday tix, BUT. My loca theater sold the three movies as separate tickets. Which means there are people who oly purchased the ROTK show, to be sure. And the theater manager, while not having set any policy in stone, has said he suspects they will have to empty the theater between each show. Now... if the folx [coughwho me?cough] who plan on attending the entire trilogy--and some I'm sure [coughwho me?cough] will be putting in some effort in getting good seats from the get-go--aren't allowed to KEEP there seats between shows, but forced to jump back into a frigging LINE to get in... well, there just may be rioting [coughwho me?cough] I suspect. Oh the woes of the LOTR-spoiled! *** 'til Monday, I leave you with this (Alice! DUCK!): Despite Grima comitting high treason / There are some who favor appeasin'. / With a glow in her eyes / The Lady Eowyn sighs, / "He ain't called 'Wormtongue' for no reason!"
Orson, I never said I by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:00:17 PM

Hey MPJedi2... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:12:11 PM
...c'mon man, no need to come off as such a snob. "Oh wait, I forgot where I am..." I can hear the wind whistling through your upturned nostrils. Minderbinder has a good point...Jackson sold the project because he convinced the suits that he COULD do something with an "unfilmable" project based solely on his demonstrated work to date. So much so that the suits said "Three movies!" Saying he's no Speilberg is beside the point...it does prove that PJ sold them solely on the merits of his work. "...script full of a whole bunch of fanboy garbage." Oh no, no display of rank bias there Bucko. Get a clue. Do you consider a built in fanbase of people ranging in ages from children to elderly folk "fanboys(?)" How could they be fanboys for a movie that hadn't even been greenlighted yet? Oh, let me guess, your feet are stuck in the great cliche mass like the other people who spout "virgin basement dwelling multi-sided dice throwers?" If you're such a snob, why do you lower yourself coming to this site and posting?
Oooh, morGoth, don't get me started..... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 04:22:24 PM
I like Bakshi's version despite it's faults. I recently bought it on DVD and like it a lot! I've met several people who have similar opinions. Yeah, I've seen the site you're referring to and enjoyed it a lot - but you could point out just as many unintentionally hilarious things in PJ's LOTR too!
"You should kiss the ass of the New Line exec who saw through al by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 04:31:40 PM
Another thing to consider is PJ's kiwi roots (not to mention WETA, great post Pallando). If a hollywood director had shot this around LA (not to mention doing FX and other post there), it wouldn't have looked nearly as good and probably would have cost double or triple. "Speilberg walks in with just the concept - BAM! Greenlight." If it were really that easy, why hasn't one of these other "big" directors done just that and made these movies already?
Yes Orson... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:58:07 PM
...this is just like people arguing over music. Like what you like and hang everybody else's opinion, yes? Personal taste and other factors color our perceptions and bias. You saying "... and like it a lot!" says it all. Likes and dislikes don't mean right or wrong. I'm not trying to start an argument with you so why don't we just say that we have differing opinions of Mr. Bakshi's effort. Yes, I'm completely aware that others like and and I recall some ferocious TB's, particularly, where greenleaf and I went round and round (back in 99', I believe). If you got a bit of a nerve touched on there, then maybe you'll appreciate the other side of the coin when some of us have taken you to task for mocking our liking of TTT and you calling us Jackson sycophants (or wearing Jackson blinders or something like that), etc., yes? Out of consideration for people who love Bakshi's version, or even the Rankin-Bass toons, I'm not going to start ridiculing those efforts in detail. So, let's just let it lie, OK?
Come on here! by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 05:01:15 PM
Did you _read_ what I posted? "Fanboy garbage" _from the perspective of a studio executive!_ Plus, fanboy garbage is fanboy garbage no matter what the source. Movie, book, TV show, doesn't matter. LOTR was alive and well before the movies, and the lore is deep and difficult to the layman. This is not a new concept, nor is it one anyone wants to argue. Why? Because fanboys, of anything, _thrive_ on the idea that they are in a "special club" that understands it all. Be it LOTR, STAR WARS, STAR TREK, BUFFY, what have you. My "upturned nose" if you want to call it that, is at the "upturned nose" of all of the people out there who like to act like they understand how the film busniess works. There's tons of people who like to sit back and talk about how "wrong" everything is, how "terrible" certain directors are. These same people couldn't even turn out a bad episode of CAPTAIN POWER AND THE POWER RANGERS. Look back at my posts, I've never said LOTR was bad, _except the Sam speech in TTT._ Now as to why Spielberg or Lucas never made LOTR, Minderbinder, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO, obviously. Which was pretty much the point of what I said. If they had wanted to, it would've been theirs to do, period. These are some of the most powerful people in Hollywood. They could've gotten the films made, and could've shot them _anywhere in the world_ that they wanted to. NZ is really a moot point, several locations in TTT looked like my Grandparent's ranch in Eastern Colorado. Don't kid yourself that a Studio film _must_ shoot around LA. I'm not trying to bash LOTR here, just point out that Jackson had a _ton_ of luck on his side, because his pre-LOTR film record wasn't labeling him the one to make this.
"If they had wanted to, it would've been theirs to do" by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 05:30:59 PM
Your opinion, I just don't agree with you. Many of the top directors (however you choose to interpret that term) have pet projects that they've been wanting to make for years but can't get done. To bring up an example again, Spielberg wanted to make Harry Potter. Did he get to do it? Nope, since he wasn't willing to compromise on his "vision", he wasn't considered. As for NZ, yes I obviously realize that you CAN shoot outside of LA, but most directors CHOOSE not to. And regardless of how pretty it is up in Colorado, shooting there wouldn't give you the cost savings that NZ would. As for luck, I guess Spielberg and Lucas had tons of it as well when studios let them make Jaws and Star Wars? (their film records before that didn't exactly label them the ones to make those...)
On luck.. by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 06:27:36 PM
Of course Speilberg and Lucas had luck. Anyone who is working in film has oodles of luck. The JAWS comparison is the most relevant. SS had developed a relationship with Zanuck and Brown, who had purchased the film rights to the book. He also had a relationship with the studio, Universal, doing TV and, specifically, DUEL. Which was A) similar and B) successful. STAR WARS is another animal, as, if Lucas hadn't sold it, it wouldn't have been made. Since he created the concept. With LOTR and JAWS, we're looking at pre-developed novels. Anyway, also the key factor in STAR WARS getting picked up by Fox was that Alan Ladd really liked AMERICAN GRAFFITTI, Lucas' first monster hit. Luck was a huge factor, but in both cases it was augmented by either personal relationships (Spielberg) or previous blockbusters (Lucas). Jackson had neither. I'm not trying to trash the guy, what he's done is extraordinary. However, remember, always remember, that studios greenlight films for one reason alone, money. They go with the filmmakers they think can bring home the bacon. That's why there's 3 LOTR films, an exec smelled a hit, and figured he could get 3 big hits instead of 2. Look at KILL BILL, another excellent example of plucking more money out of the fanboy pocket...
Yikes, morGoth - no offence intended.... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 06:51:23 PM
Nah, I was being tongue-in-cheek, though this is difficult to convey in text without putting smiley faces and whatnots. Nope, I don't go looking for fights anymore - with your good self or anyone else. On a more serious note, I don't recall ever calling people PJ sycophants or other derogatory names - I mean, that would mean I was a PJ sycophant too, because I applaud the superb work he has done on FOTR and parts of TTT. It's completely not my style to attack people personally for their opinions - though I occasionally attack their arguments a bit vigorously. My greatest lapse was just after TTT's release when in my massive disappointment I roared and shouted at poor Elanor who was only trying to be nice. That's something I regret.
"That's why there's 3 LOTR films, an exec smelled a hit, and fig by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 07:08:13 PM
Um, yeah. THAT's why. So why did every other studio say they'd only do it as ONE movie? Nah, couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the New Line guy was a Tolkien geek, it must have been just the money... By the way, I find it really funny that you insist that PJ had done nothing significant (it's not like he had an oscar nomination or anything) while at the same time trying to claim that Speilberg was somehow a hotshot because he made "Duel". Yeah, the logical choice for a hit book is a guy who's made a couple TV movies. (how exactly do you define Duel as "a success" while at the same time writing off everything PJ has done?)
Excellent picture of Frodo and Sam at the crossroads over at TOR by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 07:50:35 PM
They're walking past that headless statue - as per the book. The orcs have put a boulder on the statue's shoulders. No sign of the original head lying around in the frame...******* On another note: ROTK is only two months (TWO MONTHS!) away and looks like it might KNOCK OUR BRAINS RIGHT OUT OF OUR EARS with its spectacular battle scenes and emotionally exhausting resolution. SO, in this short space of time when we still have our wits about us, I invite fellow TBers to NAME THEIR FAVORITE SCENES in the two movies we've seen so far. You can do a top ten, a top three, or just one - whatever you like....but I want you to EXPLAIN what makes these scenes so special to YOU! SO to start off with, here's MY FAVORITE SCENE!!!!!!! ......... ...... ......... ....... ........ ........ ...... ........ ....... ....... ....... ..... NUMBER 1: Gandalf and Bilbo in Bag End after his disappearing act. There are plenty of amazing scenes in FOTR and TTT, with underground dwarf cities, elven flets, orc armies, Oliphaunts, Gollum and what-have-you.....but in the end of the day it's in this little scene in Bag End where, for me, the movie achieves perfection: the writing, direction, acting and pacing are as good as anything in cinema - AND as a bonus, not only is this scene a piece of superbly effective film-making - it is also perfectly true to the book. It takes the scene from the book, nudges it here and there for dramatic effect and totally thrills me every time I see it. Main Points Of Coolness: (1) When Bilbo reappears in Bag End, Gandalf is mysteriously ALREADY THERE! Gives you a shock the first time you see it. Dramatically it works incredibly well because it sets the tone for a tense and disturbing conversation. (2) The low-angle close-up of Bilbo caressing his "precious". We suddenly see this good-humored hobbit-with-a-heart-of-gold in a new light. It's creepy and unsettling. But not nearly as unsettling as when (3) Bilbo goes all feral and nasty and turns on his old friend. (4) Gandalf turns on the "black magic". We realise that Gandalf is not just a kindly old conjuror, but has strange hidden powers! Scary. (5) Beautiful shift in tone: Gandalf comes down to Bilbo's height and with great kindness talks him out of his madness. All now seems well. (6) Eeek! Bilbo still has the ring without realising it! More creepiness etc. (7) Bilbo's titanic struggle to let the ring go. PJ does a great job of dramatising this, with the huge Thunk! as the ring hits the floor.......Well, I could go on about this all day until even Tolkien purists decide that I'm a bit too hard-core. Anyway, I look forward to reading about other people's favorite scenes....
last time minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 07:50:37 PM
DUEL was a success. A _theatrical release_ in europe, where it did very well. Spielberg had also done THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS, produced by JAWS producers Zanuck and Brown, which Pauline Kael called (paraphrase) "the most impressive debut film in years." Jackson had done solid work before LOTR, but nothing to indicate he was up to this. He proved he was. End of tale. His luck allowed his talent to prevail. Question to you; why are you so damn scared to admit that Jackson was basically an unknown quantity before LOTR? That there were other filmmakers who could've got the thing off the ground? What is the deal? I never said anyone could've done it better, only different, and maybe would've had an easier time getting the project off the ground. You keep going over this and over this, why is _your_ ego so wrapped up in Jackson's reputation? I'm sure he doesn't care as long as we all keep buying tickets and feeding his family. Why do you?
Yes, poor, poor elanor by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 07:57:16 PM
...though she is a sturdy Hobbit lass and no mistake; I
One more thing, minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 07:57:59 PM
The exec who greenlit LOTR for New Line? Has said publicly he knew nothing about Tolkein until beginning to talk with Jackson. The smell of money, and the guts to put his company on the line made him OK 3 pictures. Other studios wouldn't take the risk, figuring sequels were always possible if the first did well. I'm not belittling the guy, it took a whole lot of guts. Of course, that leads to another question; why so concerned about the idea that mainstream films are designed to do _one_ thing, take money out of your pocket. Why do studios want Oscars? It bumps up the box office take. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that it is the way it works. You may want to believe that LOTR was made purely for artistic reasons, out of pure love, but _nobody_ puts down $300 million on a "personal film."
Goddamn it: HOSED! by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 07:58:48 PM
And I wrote such a nice post that nobody will ever read! Why do you mock us, Harry Knowles?
Guess I got it all wrong by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 08:10:35 PM

Read your post Orson... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 08:15:40 PM
...great choice of the Bilbo and Gandalf at Bag End scene. Let me think a bit on it and I'll post termorrey. Isil awaits...
SPOILERS for the unread below by Tarin	Oct 17th, 2003 09:19:24 PM
Beaks said the 'apparent' death of a character. The only character in ROTK who appears to die is Frodo, and this is starting to worry me a bit, because in the 20 minutes of footage that some have seen, it's reported that Frodo wakes up to find himself wrapped up in a web and uses the Phial of Galadriel to free himself. What worries me about this is, where does Sam come in, and the orcs, and the Tower of Cirith Ungol? Please don't tell me that Sam thinking that Frodo is dead and taking the ring has been removed from PJ's version! I've already read about how Frodo fights Shelob using Sting and the Phial, so what about Sam? Can anyone put my mind at rest?
Possible answer (spoilers again) by Tarin	Oct 17th, 2003 09:30:57 PM
I've been giving it some thought and have come up with a scenario that might work. Sam and Frodo are attacked by Shelob and are separated, perhaps Sam is even knocked unconscious. We cut away to a scene involving the other characters, then come back to Sam waking up and looking for Frodo. He can't find him. Then we cut to Frodo waking up and finding himself caught in the web. He frees himself and stars running. Shelob appears and chases him. She stings him. Frodo screams. Sam comes running, sees the foul beast starting to drag Frodo away, he snatches up the Phial (and Sting?) and drives her off. Then events can unfold pretty much as they are in the book, with Sam doing what he has to do and the Orcs coming along and Cirith Ungol and etc. It would work, but still seems a little convoluted if you ask me. But I'm just trying to make sense of the report I'm sure we all read which clearly stated that Frodo wakes up to find himself strung up in a web. This is really bothering me. HELP!!!
I tried watching the Bakshi version once.... by Devil'sOwn	Oct 17th, 2003 10:07:05 PM
"Tried" being the operative word. Just couldn't hack it. Yeah, I heard he couldn't catch a break from the studio. Didn't help. It still came off as a psychadelic jerkoff, which I'm not a fan of.* I have a hard time naming favorite scenes, because the are so many I like!* I never expected to see a "what if?" discussion about directors. At the risk of drawing fire from haters who will swear I'm a Jacksonite, I can't imagine anyone else doing these movies. Certainly, I acknowledge it was equal helpings of luck and hard work that made these films see the light of day. Okay, if pressed I would say George "Mad Max" Miller? But then, it would be a whole other strange affair... The only other major directors I could think of are Tim Burton (eek!), and Richard Donner.* I've read the books a few times, but to me, only a change of mind-boggling significance would really alter (and hurt) such a grand epic. The major stuff stays intact. I believe it was Ebonic Plague who said (I'm paraphrasing here) try being a comic book fan and see how badly Hollywood screws up your beloved icons. Word. "Purists" are just trying to damn hard to find flaws. Ofcourse, the other extreme is the trolls who clearly don't know and don't give a damn and roll their eyes back in their heads, drool and say, "It was too long and boring and... gay! Jackson is a hack." I generally steer clear of movies over two hours, but I don't think I'm the only person who wanted these movies to keep going when the big closing music comes on. I'm not an elitist cretin, nor a "fanboy" snob. Just a fella who thoroughly enjoys this series.* Way ta take care 'o business morGoth!! As usual, you make outstanding points. These are strange times to be living in. I swear, I'll never understand the animosity some people come here with. I mean, ultimately if you don't like LotR, it's okay, really. Some folk just aren't into it. Some people I hang out/ work with and have some respect for aren't fans either. Do I curse furiously at them and insult their taste? Hell no. That's just life, I accept it. It doesn't change the fact that this is something I personally derive pleasure from.
Tsk Tsk, Mr. MPJedi2 by elanor	Oct 17th, 2003 11:34:59 PM
I pray you, sir, do not assume that you are the only one on these talkbacks with some knowledge or experience in how films are greenlit ("have you ever been in a pitch meeting?") indeed. I have been in a few myself, I dare say. Perhaps you have been in some, too, but you certainly do not seem to be in full possession of the facts of the Bob Shaye/PJ meeting. First, you are forgetting Mark Ordesky, the "bigger fan boy of LOTR than PJ himself" that my friend Mr. Minderbinder was referring to. (BTW, if you review the series of posts between you and Minderbinder, you will see that he maintains his manners and his cool head throughout while you twist in your knickers.) But back to Mr. Ordesky. It is he who had a personal relationship with PJ, a fairly lengthy one. He, at PJ
Cutestofborg, LordZanthos, Tarin and Orson by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 12:07:09 AM
CoB-I am so glad you checked in! I don't know how I neglected you; I really love your handle -Pallando, can I say that?- and have no prejudice against Star Trek at all. Welcome back.* LordZanthos, I will sign your petition since I'd love to see it have an effect, however to you also I say rest assured that we will indeed have more opportunities to see all three movies back to back. It just SCREAMS out money and Studios love money. I hope to have the choice in the future of theatrical marathon or extended marathon. All signs are that there will be an extended version of ROTK, no matter how long the theatrical ends up being, so, there will be future incentive galore.Tarin, I think you answered your own question. I would only add that I am not worried one whit although I am very curious as to how PJ will handle the Choices of Master Samwise.**Orson - you needn't worry any longer, it seems your Smeagol has won over your Gollum. But I am touched at your last admission. Thanks, and do not let your heart be troubled on my account. Now, to a point in one of your posts - about a longer period between films, I hear ya and I agree that if PJ, Fran and Phillipa had had a mite longer between greenlight and the first day of filming, the screenplay of T2T might have had a chance to breathe and settle. BUT, having, say a year and a half between films would also have meant that the entire shoot would have been longer and that may have lessened the chance they had in the beginning to get the terrific actors they got. Not a few folks turned them down due to the long committment. These days, it is very rare for an actor to spend more than two months on a shoot (except for Stepford Wives or Troy) and in most cases with the one-film-out-each-year schedule the actors had to commit to between 9 and 18 months, and way way far away, too, in jolly old NZ, where even if you get an unexpected week off, it would hardly be worth it to fly home. Anyway, I am glad to read that you are psyched again for ROTK. Here's hoping you will love it as much as Fellowship. And BTW, I'm right there with ya on the post-party Gandalf/Bilbo scene. Gorgeous, and ingenious, a textbook case of adaptation/condensation without forfeiting a jot of theme, character or mood. My all time favorite moment of that scene is Ian Holm's reaction to Ian McKellen's ever so slightly sinister reading of "The Ring is still in your pocket". So much Bilbo is in his glance: regret, embarassment, stubborness, fear, I think I see him considering becomming invisible to escape. Yes, the bar was set high with Fellowship.
all exciting news about RotK by mayaV	Oct 18th, 2003 02:24:35 AM
I'm still having some computer troubles and hope this post finds its way. I have to admit, I read about this 20 minutes at CHUD first. But I went through hell when I couldn't come to AICN for TB. Goddamnd machines! * Can anyone of you imagine, why they show 20 minutes to the press and we have to starve with nothing but written description and a little trailer? Hey, I need more! I'll start to re-read the book within the next weeks, so I have something to feed my heart! * Nice TB here. You got rid of creepy+grimmy! Finally evolution made it up to them and zivilisation broke through.
I wanted to add by mayaV	Oct 18th, 2003 02:45:27 AM
Concerning the death of a character. Theoden is going to die. He's killed in battle! He's the only one I can think of, * I guess that PJ will stick closely to Tolkien with Frodo being poisioned by Shelob and Sam thinking he's dead. This might become one of the most intense scenes in Rotk. I see myself stunned in the seat, half crying half hoping. This could be the moment, by that LotR hardcore-fans will judge PJ. We already know, he can do astonishing battle-scenes but can he handle this? To make averyone belive - even those who know the end - Frodo has passed and it's all lying in Sams hands?
Are you guys still here? by greenleaf	Oct 18th, 2003 03:29:35 AM
Jeeezus! It seems like ages ago. Hi! *** I still visit AICN often, even though I almost never read the LotR news. My interest for Peter Jackson's work has... waned, to put it mildly, since the release of TTT. Reading your comments on the film in this TB, I feel like a large gap has opened between you, and myself, over the years. A Grand Canyon type of gap. Was I a purist? I don't think so. Yet I feel that these movies, especially TTT, and I'm sure you can appreciate the meaning of this last nuance, represent nothing that LotR was to me. You can't say it's a complete travesty in the Hollywoodian sense; it's produced by Hollywood but PJ&Co are a quirky bunch and their films don't quite espouse the aforementioned model - PJ also has his cinematic roots in a particular type of genre film. Yet in TTT, while each character still bears its own name and title, is dressed properly, sans helmet with horns and shaggy beard, and that's about it. Their motivations are totally different from the original tale, changed around in a seemingly random and meaningless fashion, except when it's about Liv getting a bit more screentime. To name a few: Th
Dufusyte's prognostications vindicated on schedule by DufusyteII	Oct 18th, 2003 03:30:17 AM
Alternate director: I'd vote for Ridley Scott - for Fellowship he would capture the tense horror movie elements like in his classic horror movie Alien (one of the scariest ever - imagine black riders in place of the alien), then for the action packed sword chopping TTT and ROTK Ridley would do it in Gladiator style - remember opening scene where the Roman Legion battles the barbarians CLASSIC! or the chariot scene where Crowe and his band spin the colloseum's historical reenactment exponentially out of control. The thing with Ridley is that his characters have more personality. Look at Commodus - classic! Look at Ripley - the audience identifies with her and when the alien corners her in the escape pod, we feel like we are the ones battling for our life (because we identify with Ripley). By contrast, PJ's characters are a bit flat like Lucas'. The audience watches the characters, but does not really identify with them, and hence we are unconcerned with their fate. The visuals are meaningless if we do not care about the characters. I said this about FOTR, and it did not get better in TTT. As an audience member, the only character I personally care about is Arwen - Liv's performance has been very moving and sincere, and I feel for her character's vulnerability and the tragic destiny that was so beautifully foreshadowed in TTT (best part of TTT), and which seems destined to engulf her, even in the best of cases Aragorn will die and she will suffer an interminable widowhood until she tastes the bitter kiss of death, which will mercifully release her from a world that no longer holds interest for her since her beloved has left the land of the living. One really gets the sense that Arwen has no interest in the world nor in living immortally in the world; the only thing that she lives for is her beloved. Apart from him, she finds no point in living, and it is a grace for her that death will set her free from a world without Aragorn. ******* Speaking of Aragorn, I still hold to my original assessment that Viggo has villain written all over his face, and although Viggo can do a passable Strider who is scraggly and shady (quasi-villainous), he cannot clean up to do a noble King in the third film. We are now at the third film, and Viggo still looks like a villain, as in the current ROTK poster where he looks like some creepy villainous Rasputin: see poster: http://www.elbakin.com/film/ph otos/imgnews/rotkteaser_poster .jpg DUFUSYTE PREDICTED THIS!
Grammatical errors / nonsensical sentences by greenleaf	Oct 18th, 2003 03:37:10 AM
I am sorry. It's that stupid English language again.
Sabster by Sabster	Oct 18th, 2003 06:51:59 AM
I
Sabster by Sabster	Oct 18th, 2003 07:00:21 AM
I
Elanor. Borg. Maya. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:19:13 AM
Just wanted to say, Wow. I'm not sure how a debate about how a movie gets made comes about, but elanor, that was great. I was impressed with your knowledge and composure. That's what I call classs. I'm sure a lot of us out here wish more producers were as open-minded as Mr. Shaye. And more directors had the GUTS to stick to their visions like Peter Jackson.* morGoth, I summon thee! Where are ya?* It is an uneasy alliance we have with technology, maya. A couple days ago, at another talkback, I had this post that was sweet and damn funny. And it was LOST. (sigh.) That'll take the wind outta yer sails. I'm plannin' on rereading the trilogy soon, too. It's been years! Incidently, I'm sure this has been asked before, but are there any other fantasy series you would recommend? I'm aware there's other stuff, but before I plunk down cash for it, I'd like to hear what readers who know have to say. Yup, the viral infection that is CreepyThingy and the pulsating hemorrhoid that is Grimwhatsit have cleared up for the moment. Everyday, I pray for peace. But when the time comes to be TESTED, I will be ready.
Hiya. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:31:25 AM
elanor, brilliant job of making your point! It is an uneasy alliance we have with technology, maya. I just had a sweet and damn funny post, and it was lost! (sigh.) That'll take the wind outta your sails. Yup, that nasty case of Creepythingy and Grimwhatsis has cleared up for the moment. We can only pray it stays that way. morGoth! I summon thee!!! Where are ya?
YER AHT OF ORDAH! by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:37:18 AM
GAWDDAMMIT! I hate when th' talkback gets jacked up!!
Sorry T2T didn't work for you, greenie by Miami Mofo	Oct 18th, 2003 10:53:46 AM
Of your five "major" complaints, Theoden, Treebeard, Faramir, Gollum and Aragorn, Treebeard is the only one I can agree with. I hate the "Tricking of Treebeard." Everything else works for me. ***Ready for a BOLD prediction: I won't say that the Yankees will get their butts kicked, for, as everyone knows, Fish have no feet. What the Fighting Fish will do however, is poke the Yanks in the eye with their bill over and over and over. Marlins in five.
mpjedi: "why are you so damn scared to admit that Jackson was b by minderbinder	Oct 18th, 2003 10:58:24 AM
Sure, Jackson didn't have a big hit, he wasn't a household name. But that doesn't mean that his getting the gig was just because of luck. He did have an oscar nomination, a film that didn't do well at the box office but had great production values and plenty of top notch FX for a TINY budget, and a thirty five minute demo made specifically to pitch LotR. And big projects being given to filmmakers without big hits isn't unheard of. Look at Jaws (we're supposed to be impressed by a "successful" movie that only got a european release and was only shown on TV in the US?). Look at the Matrix. Look at Spidey, Raimi had a very similar track record to PJ. Look at Cuaron getting the Harry Potter gig. Fincher on Alien3. As you have admitted, EVERY person getting a gig in hollywood requires lots of luck. And you're wrong as well about the New Line pitch: "Mark Ordesky, the president of Fine Line Pictures, New Line's specialty film division, was a longtime Tolkien fan and early proponent of the project." (Ordesky had been a longtime friend of PJ) No personal agenda here, just want to see you get your facts straight.
eleanor by MPJedi2	Oct 18th, 2003 12:35:36 PM
Well, what I can certainly assume is that you have all the personality quirks of another fanboy/girl so wrapped up in the love of LOTR to lose sight of the fact that these are _just movies._ "But take care, sir, to temper your abrupt dismissal of this amazing moment in movie history as mere "luck". Peter Jackson is a unique commodity. He is not of Hollywood." Great, yeah, sure. Lucas lives outside of Hollywood too, making movies on his _own dime,_ no less. Even Jackson can't say that, he dependant on _Hollywood money._ (Not making any sort of _quality_ comparison!) They're big movies that made a lot of money! In historical perspective, the public will always lump them in with other blockbuster series, STAR WARS, THE MATRIX, SPIDER-MAN. There is very little _new_ here. It's done exceedingly well, granted, but let's not lose perspective because it's a fan-favorite book. Also, if PJ was "not of Hollywood," he sure as hell is now, if he likes it or not. What's really funny is that despite my getting my "knickers in a twist," _you're_ the one who _started_ hurling personal insults because I don't worship at the shrine of Saint Peter. You can write all the e-mails an letters you want "thanking" these people, but in the end, you'll find out, just like the STAR WARS and STAR TREK fans, it's all about your money. Thanks for taking this out of the realm of a spirited discussion about the film, and making it personal. I'm certain Saint Peter is reading, and will send a little "thank you" E-mail.
Wherever there is mystery and the unexplained, cosmic forces sha by Seepgood	Oct 18th, 2003 02:24:16 PM
Limericks have much the same effect. **** Favourite scenes - well here's a top five in purely chronological order that suits how I feel today:- 1. Gandalf and Bilbo. Entirely in agreement with Orson here. If possible I'd like to cheat and fit in the previous scene with the two of them - genuine warmth and a spot of gentle physical comedy whose light touch is a world away from dwarf-tossing jokes, undercut by a subtly conveyed sense of gnawing doubt and worry beneath the friendly greetings. "You haven't aged a day..." I find it hard to believe that even the purest purist could have watched those two scenes for the first time and not felt hopeful about the outcome of this adaptation, whatever they ultimately felt about what came after. 2. The Rider on the road. One scene (arguably the only one) that portrays the Nazgul to perfection. The abrupt shift in ambience from the knockabout encounter with Merry and Pippin, the overlap between their continued giggly high spirits and the menacing presence of the Rider, the use of sound in the first foreboding of it's approach or the squelch of a steel-clad foot, the use of angles as the cowled figure leans over so very nearly far enough, the worms and beetles hurrying to escape...it all encapsulates how utterly wrong it is to find this horror here, in the carefree parochial sleepiness of the Shire. 3. "Such a little thing". The very best of PJ's detours from the text. The glistening snow, the close-up on the Ring, the look of dreamy bafflement that says everyting about the way its blandishments can make the wise seem perverse and vice versa. Frodo's fear, Aragorn's stern watchfulness, Boromir's unconvincing nonchalance. The hand on the hilt. Perfection. 4. The Bridge of Khazad-Dum (and aftermath). While I'm not hugely enamoured of the alterations to the build-up for this, the final confrontation was one place where PJ had the nous to recognise that the original was unimprovable and called it straight from the page, while WETA and Ian McKellen did him proud. (Of the things which it is possible to get right on screen (ie not including Elves) the Balrog was probably the thing which I was most doubtful would be pulled off visually. The somewhat more revealing images of it in TTT are rather too specific, but here it's got just the right combination of sheer physical mass and ambiguity as to detail. Where Audeh gets his "cartoon peril" slights from I don't know.) If the same approach is taken to the demise of the Witch-king we're in for a treat. As for the silent heartbreak that follows...well, a lot has been said here about that. Let's just say I'm after you with the tissues. 5. Boromir's last stand. I could talk about the camera work or the use of sound, I could defend against grouchings about slow-mo action sequences. But really, my inclusion of this one is just a literally visceral reaction. Gut-wrench overload. **** Looking back over those I'm seeing plenty of Gandalf and Boromir (which probably says something about where casting went completely right) and no TTT (which says something about quite a few other things). The contrast between the first three and the last two also brings something home to me which I hadn't quite recognised before, which is how fundamental unease is to the mood of Fellowship (book and film, but especially book), and how it fits into the process of emerging into the wider world. I read once that horror is about the familiar becoming unfamiliar, and that seems to be something that distinguishes the early part of the book, where the hobbits are first on familiar ground and then in a way the passengers of their more experienced and capable guides. It's that sense of something nasty lurking just beneath the harmless-looking surface, the glimpse of a shadow in the corner of your eye, the sudden jolting realisation that it's later than you think and the city gate is swinging in the breeze. That tone of oppressive not-quite-rightness teetering on the edge of panic is set by the malign presence of the Ring amidst the jollity of Bag End and the amiable personality of Bilbo and runs through the silent menace of the Riders in the Shire, the heat and stillness of an ill-advised picnic on the Barrow Downs and suspicious encounters in convivial Bree to the dark waters by the East-gate and that insistent tap-tap-tapping in the depths of Moria. That tension reaches its climax with the ominous quickening tempo of increasing desperation in the Book of Mazarbul and is finally shattered as the drums in the deep ring out in the deep and that terror of the ancient world comes forth to battle. With that climactic confrontation and the removal of the sheltering guidance of Gandalf which leaves the rest to fend for themselves comes a sense of things being out in the open, the epic struggle fully underway, the enemy and the scale of the task no longer half-hidden. The characters have seen the worst they can offer face to face. After the respite of Lorien the menace of the subterranean struggle in the mind of Boromir and the unseen watchers along the river build to a second climax which completes the process as the hobbits are separated from their remaining protectors and Frodo takes on full responsibility for his mission. Rather than huge and important and frightening things intruding incongruously into an everyday world the hobbits are now out among the hugeness and becoming a part of it. The menace of incongruity only recurs in the Scouring, where of course they're on the other side of the divide. ** Thorin and Company come staggering back through the trees after their almost disastrous investigation of that camp-fire in the woods to find Gandalf lounging calmly by the side of the road, puffing on his pipe. He looks the shaky and dishevelled dwarves up and down and in a tone of unconcerned slight bemusement enquires, "What happened, were they psychos or something?". With a supreme effort to contain his fury, Thorin splutters out, "PSYCHOS do not turn to STONE when sunlight hits them! I DON'T CARE HOW CRAZY THEY ARE!" ** All of which verbose ramblings are by way of prologue to the following:- At the sight of their numerous brood / One must surely be forced to conclude / That insatiable Rose / Allowed Sam no repose / But was constantly horny and lewd.
Ha Ha! Why it's old home week on the tb! by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 04:11:27 PM
Greenleaf that was a wonderful greenleafian post. I do enjoy your style and I had no idea how much I missed you! Very sorry to hear (yet hardly surprised) that you are disappointed with the films. I am quite pleased with them myself and am somewhat motivated to disagree/discuss with you but on second thought I'll leave it alone. And sorry I missed your visit to NYC. You must have been to Times Square which was once expected to be Disney-fied but I think it has been Suburban Mall-ized instead. I quite agree that it is horrid. However, have no fear. The sleaze has not been removed, it has just migrated a bit. There are still strip clubs and peek-a-booths in the upper 30's and lower 40's on 8th Ave. Why there's a lap-dancing club right across the street from my apartment bldg on W. 45th on my otherwise "respectible" block. But I totally agree - Times Square is as ugly as it gets. Starbucks? Pah! Toy R Us? Fooey!*Dufy, how nice to see you back again. I will not argue with you either since in my opinion you will always be victimized by the odd expectations you yourself created. I am glad you like Liv's Arwen but find your other comments quite contrary to the movies I saw.*And now hear this, folks. Mr. Movie Business Expert MPJedi2 has decided to e-mail me privately rather than take me on on this forum. I wonder if he would mind if I'd cut and paste his message here? He can't and doesn't refute my arguments, of course. All he does is focus on my teasing of his snooty comments as "personal attacks" while failing to see his own culpability in that charge. I think it is fair to tease me as one who "worships at the altar of PJ" but my arguments were clean and he knows he's wrong. Hee hee.
Oops! Partial apology to Jedi Dude by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 04:20:18 PM
I didn't realize the tb was hosed so I didn't see your message here in public. So your faults do not, in fact, include sneaky cowardice. But you are still wrong and don't get me at all. C'est la vie.
Public Response to Jedi2's response to my response by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 05:17:12 PM
JediDude: You say "...you have all the personality quirks of another fanboy/girl so wrapped up in the love of LOTR to lose sight of the fact that these are _just movies._" While it is indeed fair to say I love LOTR, may I remind you it is not only fans who see these films as more than "just movies". Critics and journalists galore have said it. So have academics. For you to say or believe so is to deny reality.***You say "Lucas lives outside of Hollywood too, making movies on his _own dime,_ no less. Even Jackson can't say that, he (is) dependant on _Hollywood money." No need to pout so. Jackson doesn
Just popping on to say by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 08:37:56 PM
"Welcome" to Sabster and "thanks for the Fingolfin correction" to Conan and "wow what a beautiful post" to Seepgood. Too bad this sucka is so hosed.
Unexpected death of a character possible spoiler by scythe1138	Oct 18th, 2003 09:57:09 PM
I think he's talking about the death of Saruman. Some of you may recall an interview with Christopher Lee in which he revealed a spoiler that made it sound like his character died in a fall. From the beginning PJ has said that fate of Saruman and the Shire would be different in ROTK. Personally this change wouldn't bother me. I love Tolkien's work, but I find that the Lord of the Rings films are rare cases in which the movies are an improvement over the books.
Good Lord, I had no idea... by orson	Oct 18th, 2003 10:29:40 PM
morGoth and Elanor: thanks for your kind words - Yes the Gollum side has agreed to go on an extended vacation. I guess the Gandalf+Bilbo scene was an obvious choice, though I was just singling out this particular scene: in reality, I find the entire first section of FOTR right up to the council of Elrond to be pretty flawless. I even love the wizard duel: it's a satisfying expression of the bubbling tension/passive-agression between the two wizards from the moment they first greet each other..***** Seepgood.......I have only one thing to say in response to your post and that is "urk" (sound of me choking)..........Okay, now that I've picked myself up, I can only thank you for such an unexpectedly brilliant response to my request. For myself, I would include a couple of scenes from TTT in my top ten, such as: the sequence of Aragorn lying in stone + Arwen walking under "the fading trees"; Gandalf remembering his name (I know it's not strictly logical but it's moving nonetheless - largely because Gimli is giving him friendly encouragement!); Gandalf calling Shadowfax - who canters all the way to his mark in one continuous take and appears to nod his head when he hears his name. There seems to be great fondness between horse and wizard; the final charge out onto the causeway (a.k.a. What happens when you cram hundreds of stupid orcs onto a narrow ramp and then ride a few horses straight at them - strike!). There are other nice bits here and there in TTT, but most of my favorite scenes are in FOTR. I whole-heartedly agree with your point about the Bilbo+Gandalf scenes: I defy even the most entrenched purists to say that these scenes aren't 100% faithful to the books.
Dufusyte's demands by DufusyteII	Oct 19th, 2003 12:39:36 AM
Elanor wrote: "in my opinion you [Dufusyte] will always be victimized by the odd expectations you yourself created." My only expectation is that Aragorn, heir to the throne of Gondor, not look like someone I have to hide the children from: http://www.elbakin.com/film/ph otos/imgnews/rotkteaser_poster .jpg
Poor Dufy, you're so conservative by elanor	Oct 19th, 2003 01:36:17 AM
It's a matter of taste. You don't like Viggo's looks. I do. His son Henry seems to think he's pretty swell. So hide your chillun if you must. Mine will rush to greet him. Sigh.
To DrexxellTheNecro by Mafu	Oct 19th, 2003 01:38:11 AM
Fuck you, you pedantic, self-righteous loser. No one gives a fuck if you think PJ murdered the story. No one fucking cares if you think the books are better than the movies. Get over yourself. I know I speak for about 95% of the people reading this. Nothing you say will stop the momentum of these movies, so get out of the fucking way way. Have a nice night.
To DufusyteII by Mafu	Oct 19th, 2003 01:54:04 AM
Ridley Scott directing these films would be better, eh? Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I have to say the logic behind your statement baffles me. Maybe Ridley would've done a good job - or maybe he would've made another "1492: Conquest of Paradise" disaster. In addition, his movie "Gladiator" has aged worse than almost any film I've ever seen. Seriously, that film has such gaping plot-holes that it makes me laugh when I watch it now. In addition, you've overlooked the fact that Peter Jackson pitched the films to several studios over the course of the late 1990s, finally getting New Line to sign on. Ridley Scott wouldn't have had the balls, interest, or artistic vigor for this. He's a different type of director, in my opinion.
To DufusyteII by Mafu	Oct 19th, 2003 02:00:55 AM
One more thing: Liv Tyler's performance has been passable, but is probably the weakest of almost any character in the films. Your perspective of what consitutes good "character" differs significantly from mine, it would seem. If I was directing a movie, I wouldn't want you as my casting director.
Can't see any problem with Viggo... by orson	Oct 19th, 2003 06:43:36 AM
Casting him was an inspired decision in my view. Okay, he's nothing like the book-Aragorn as far as I can see - but he's a superb alternative. To my mind he looks and performs like a genuinely credible "hero" character. His line delivery is magnificent - eg "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will. You have my sword." Liv Tyler is certainly not terrible. In FOTR she performs surprisingly well. The only problem is that she's given nothing to do in TTT but mope around on couches, pining and whining in her whispery voice. I think that this leads to her being compared very unfavorably to Eowyn, i.e. why the hell doesn't Aragorn prefer HER over Arwen?? Which leads me to think that Arwen would have had a lot more impact if she had been fighting at Helm's Deep. After all, her performance at the flight to the ford made her look like a kick-ass woman and more worthy of Aragorn's interest.
Now that this TB seems to have unhosed by Sabster	Oct 19th, 2003 09:51:55 AM
allow me to repeat my little cp theory which ended up somewhere in the middle of this page: it
You know, it's ironic to see accusations of "Fanboy/girl!" from by minderbinder	Oct 19th, 2003 10:18:07 AM
And awfully hard to take someone like that seriously.
Order hath been restored. Great. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 19th, 2003 11:02:39 AM
Nice to see not much has changed since the mortifyng events of yesterday. Geez.* For what it's worth: The years leading up to LotR's release had been filled with befuddling disappointments and surprising successes. I didn't follow the development of the film, just periodically heard of the troubles that plagued it (one rarely hears good news, only gossip and/or hype). When I heard it was finally coming out, I had no expectations. I just thought, great, another 2 hour toy commercial that will all too soon fade into oblivion. This was one of those situations where I was glad to be wrong. The movie was great- it not only looked good, but had wonderful action, cool characters, and hey, genuine moments of stirring drama. Here we are a couple years later, and a peculiar species of debate and over-analysis has evolved. All too often, "movie buffs" seem to evaluate a film's worth on how few "bad" parts are in it, which vary wildly depending on the individual. I can't imagine how they enjoy anything when they're so busy whining about minute details. Sometimes the only options you're left with are to just ignore the naysayers (hard to do for the passionate fan), or engage in barrages of verbiage that can be labyrinthine, or just unsettling. Sure, you can have your opinion and express it as you see fit, I enjoy a spirited discussion and love to hear other viewpoints. Love LotR, or hate it- it damn sure seems to get people talking. But some folks should try to think about what they are saying; denouncing a film with petty remarks and insulting those who do enjoy it and aren't afraid to defend it doesn't get you anywhere. At the end of the day, what we need to remember is that, while these movies do have a fanbase in us, Joe Cinema is gonna go see it too. And lest we forget, Joe is that unbiased consumer who needs to be entertained too. If they ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. We'd just be sitting around here discussing some obscure cult nugget.* Viggo owns the role of Aragorn. I wasn't really aware of the situation as it happened. After the fact, when I discovered who the hell Stuart Townsend was, I was grateful Viggo had stepped in to admirably fill Aragorn's boots. If ya think he doesn't have the right look for the character, hey man, that's your issue and it's kinda pointess now. Deal with it. I shudder to think who the hell else could have been a more "cinegenic" candidate. Brad Pitt? Richard Gere? Brrr... Anyone else I can think of is either physically wrong for the part, or so damn fugly it would have made the film a laughable sham. I like that they went with a distinctive looking hero, and not some cookie-cutter heartthrob.
Sabster! I had that book too!!!! by orson	Oct 19th, 2003 11:49:36 AM
There were two versions of the Bakshi book: a big one with text beneath the stills - and a small novel-sized version which tried to turn the stills from the movie into a comic book, complete with speech bubbles. I had them both when I was nine years' old! (though one was borrowed from the library). My reaction was different to yours though. I was completely captivated by the world shown in the pictures (it looked very adult and sinister compared to Disney cartoons!) and I immediately read The Hobbit and LOTR as a result of seeing those images.
What?! Who let the Caustic Elf of Smirkwood in? by morGoth	Oct 19th, 2003 01:40:30 PM
Hola Greenleaf! It warms my heart to see the Verdant Trickster grace these TB
Devil by morGoth	Oct 19th, 2003 02:09:08 PM
Twice invoked! I
More burblings overheard near Gamwich! by morGoth	Oct 19th, 2003 02:37:39 PM
I completely agree with Dufus over Liv Tyler
PJ can't please everybody by mayaV	Oct 19th, 2003 02:38:06 PM
The beautiful thing about written language is this: the words you read create with your fantasy, your experiences and your knowledge a wonderful inside world. You are the only person to see the inner imagination and there won't be anyone to have the same. When I read LOTR I could see my version of Tolkien's Middle Earth. You saw yours and PJ saw his. Now we are going to this movies, where we all see the same pictures, that reproduce what PJ sees when he reads the book. Do you understand what I mean? The problem of adapting books for screenplay! Tolkien leaves a lot of freedom for fantasy, so it becomes more impossible to do the movies in a way to please everyone. Same problem with choosing actors, writing the script and so on. Don't laugh at me or ban me forever, but I had this problem with the Harry Potter movies. They didn't fit to my reading imaginations. Watching The Fellowship the first time, I had the same problem again. But then I simply stopped comparing it to the book and saw it as inspired work. PJ's trying so hard to please fans and others. We should give him credit for making it. He put so much effort in LOTR. Do him a favour and free your mind for three hours to enjoy the movie. After watching it, you -aswell as me - will find things you disliked. But hey, the movies can never destroy our own Middle Earth. In best case they add a little, in worst we are pissed.
How goes it, 'Goth? by Devil'sOwn	Oct 19th, 2003 03:14:44 PM
Glad ta have ya back. This tb was suffering from a vitamin "m" deficiancy. Loved your comments about Aragorn., a pint for you. I don't know what's up with some people. In the movies I saw, last minute choice Viggo presented a complex character. While the cast was uniformly excellent, he really seemed to fit into this world, creating verisimilitude. I was impressed by his skill, laughed at his humor, and sympathized with this man who can't escape his destiny.* Burton's a wizard, don't you doubt it. But a very dark and strange one. I agree with you about Jackson's handling of the material. I mean, dammit. The man just stayed the course and worked his ass off, and for that alone he should be commended. Hey, trolls, this is why we dig the guy- because he bothers to respect us. Speakin' 'o poo- throwin' brats, it is a sad sitcheeation when these chumps come here with nothing more in mind than to say, Hey! Look at me. I'm a rude bastard. Then, at the suggestion that they should keep a civil tongue in their heads, they have a world class hissyfit of name-calling and groundless accusation, and, bafflingly, expect someone to do nothing. Ultimately, it's pathetic. I try to rise above it. Sometimes ya can't help drawing attention to the absurdity of these goobers, though.* Honestly, I never expected to hear anything abot the Bakshi "experiment", I guess I shoud've known it had it's fans. I just consider it a relic of a time best forgotten. I'll take a faithful adaptation over an artistic interpretation any day.
Once more into the breach... by Devil'sOwn	Oct 19th, 2003 04:22:43 PM
Basically, this imp thinks the cast and crew acquited themselves admirably with the material. I sympathize with your hardships, morGoth. Here in my little nether-realm of Appalchia, we only caught a small piece of that nasty bunch 'o weather. Glad to hear you're truckin' along well.* Glory be, it's mayaV! It is no easy task to bring a fictional world to the screen, and depending on the source material, it can be too easy to screw up what works on paper. It's difficult for me to articulate, but I had the exact opposite problem with the Potter flicks. They were fine enough, but so vividly rendered the world, there were few surprises, and I had trouble maintaining interest. Sometimes, you just want to be challenged... not have the visualizing done for you. Sorry if that doesn't make sense. Great advice, maya. In my case, Jackson added touches I would have never thought of that increased my enjoyment.* And here for your perusal, my favorite 7 (my number) scenes from Fellowship. I exclude Towers because I haven't seen it quite as many times yet. They're in no particular order, only how they appeal to my quirky sensibilities. 1. Aragorn vs the Nazgul at Weathertop. Hey, that grungy guy can really handle himself in a scrap, eh? 2. Gandalf catches Sam droppin' eaves. In one hilarious scene, we learn all we need to know about Samwise's simple nature and unwavering devotion to Frodo. 3. Enter: The cave-troll! I'm frightened, Mummy. 4. Merry and Pippin in the hizzy at Bilbo's party. Cute accents. Absolute rascals. 5. The Last Stand of Boromir. He was loud. He was obnoxious. He was the typical fantasy fighter, all mouth and trousers. And yet, for the second time in the movie, I cried like a big ol' bitch. 6. Skulkin'-Action Gollum. This thug could be trouble... crazy as a shithouse rat. And 7. The Bridge of Khazad-dum. After a tour of majestic Middle-earth, and hints that Gandalf is more than just a wise old man, the G steps to the Balrog. It doesn't work out too good, but damn! Didn't he represent? Honorable mention goes to the Prologue. I don't know about the "purists", but from the moment I saw that opening battle scene, I knew that this was more than your garden-variety genre adventure movie.
Appalchia. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 19th, 2003 04:32:48 PM
Oh, God. Yeah, it's like "Appalachia", only with more minorities and urban decay...
A long-expected moth by orson	Oct 19th, 2003 06:59:04 PM
Thanks for that, Devil's own. You're right about the prologue - it kicks major ass - to my mind it contains the best action/battle scene of the two movies so far.**** Hmmmm, I'd say that Bakshi's version is actually more literally true to the book than PJ's - which is perhaps the major flaw of Bakshi's version IMO. PJ is much more succesful at translating the story into a convincing dramatic form. The only "artiness" in Bakshi is in the visuals which are, to a certain extent, a product of its era + a restricted budget.* I reel in horror at the idea of Burton directing LOTR. (BTW he worked on Bakshi's LOTR when he was a kid - tracing cells or something). Burton's earlier films were brilliant - among my favorites - but it's been many years since we've seen any sign of his former talent. * As a Bakshi fan, I wouldn't say I'm looking for PJ to put some kind of "zany" stamp on his movies. My position has always been that I don't care what he does as long as he does it well.*** Favorite scene #26: The moth. I think this is a magnificent solution to the whole Radaghast issue. There is something lyrical and heroic about the flight of the moth - and the way Gandalf cathches him and whispers to him. Lovely performances from both McKellen and the moth.
If Legolas kills Wormtongue ... by irritable	Oct 19th, 2003 08:25:30 PM
...maybe that suggests that Wormtongue kills Saruman, (thereby avoiding an unseemly WizKeBab).
Magic moments... by Devil'sOwn	Oct 19th, 2003 08:44:35 PM
Hey, Orson. What it is? The prologue was just such an effective way of saying, " Behold! Wanna come in?" I forgot to mention, the scene with Galadriel in it? She so owns me. My problem with Bakshi's Ring is that it did not turn out anywhere near like I expected. So that's just me. I know Bakshi was capable of better things. Hell, my into to Tolkien? The Rankin-Bass version of The Hobbit, and The Return of the King. And borg, the scene you mentioned tears me up every time!
Hmm this is a bundle of posts and no mistake!!! by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 20th, 2003 12:34:40 AM
Hi Elanor, that's ok about the Fingolfin correction, I find myself liking (and reading) the Silmarillion more and more as the years go on... Hey MorGy, Alice everyone. Mafu don't worry too much about Dufy, he's a bit of a strange creature, he seems to change 'sides' every now and then. Sometimes he is VERY much in favour of LOTR and writes at extreme length about the movies, other times he seems to despise them, ah well. mpJedi, if you want to come here and have a civilized discussion that's fine and you'll be made welcome, but I can assure you, you'll need to get your facts right if you want to get the better of some of the people here, as Elanor so aptly demonstrated... My only problem with Viggo as Aragorn is that he is not tall enough!!! Aragorn is meant to be representative of the tall 'Sea Kings' of old, in the book he measures around 6 foot 6inches tall... Even Stuart Townsend wouldn't have measured up here, so PJ et al obviously didn't care much about this... My favourite scene? Boromir's death. Not because Boromir dies mind you, but because of the sheer emotion of that scene. I also like when the fellowship are climbing Caradhras. The cinematography there is amazing in my opinion. Ok that's about it. I'll pop back in later. Cheers.
... on further reflection by irritable	Oct 20th, 2003 02:28:12 AM
...WT could, in various imaginable circumstances, bring about a WizKeBab before BowGuy shoots.
I agree Irritable, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 20th, 2003 05:17:31 AM
I think WT will slit Saruman's throat as in the books, but it'll happen on his balcony at Orthanc. Saruman will then plummet onto a spiky wheel and Legolas will dispatch WT with an arrow through the top of his head, as per spy reports that have been released. What does everyone think eh? Cheers.
Frodo's tear by Miami Mofo	Oct 20th, 2003 08:45:36 AM
Locutis (CoB) is correct!!!!!!!!! 'Frodo's tear,' which I consider to be everything from when Frodo yells "Nooooooooo" when Gandalf falls to the actual teardrop, when accompanied by that amazing portion of the soundtrack (particularly Edward Ross' vocal), is just about the most moving piece of filmmaking I've ever seen (and heard).
I had a bad night, and thought about TB by mayaV	Oct 20th, 2003 09:51:09 AM
I like the scene where the fellowship's climbing up the Caradhras, too. It's got wonderful details: like Legolas walking on top of all that snow. Actually sots of people I asked about that scene didn't see this. My almost-crying-a-river scene was when Gimli remembered Galadriels gift. Sorry, but that dwarf touches me most. (Kind of explaines why I hate the way he's portrayed in TTT.) * Anyone knowes this other animated film by Bakshi 'Fire and Ice'? I used to see it when I was seven or eight at my neighbours house. I'm still waiting for a rerun on TV, but they seem not to care. * I fell asleep tonight over thinking about an unexpectet death. I think, I saw this interview with Lee and he said something like the way he'll die will be different from the book and surprising. But I was thinking about: what if PJ kills someone who doesn't die in the book? And that brings me strait to: Elrond. No, stay away with the swords, I'll explain: it would make easier for Arwen and Aragorn. In fact she promised her father to leave for the west. And the death of Elrond would make it more obvious, that the time of elves has passed. Plus: he's there to bring Aragorns sword. Well, it's just - I couldn't sleep and I was thinking about TB while waiting.
What a difference a weekend makes by Pallando Blue	Oct 20th, 2003 10:18:08 AM
Now this here's lived up to its promise and turned into quite a heluva good TB. Where to even remotely begin? Randomly! That way I'll be sure to forget ots of stuff. * See, morG, THIS is why we might as well keep our mouths shut around here when the less-than-politic take their swipes. Or, rather, SHE is why. G'on witcher bad se'f, elanor! To quoe Bill Murray in Kingpin, Oh girl, you still got that great stuff. * Sabster, much as I hate to poke holes in a-a-a-anybody's crackpot theories, I think we finally have evidence that the e'er-conjectured Arwen-on-her-deathbed overhead shot, well, ain't on her deathbed. And it's right there in the ROTK trailer. In those last amazing seconds when it's a flash of film per musical beat, one of those flashes (as I flex my frame-by-frame skillz) is a reverse of that shot, as she leaps from that bed into Daddy's arms. Same outdoors, same reclined position, same outfit. So, lookin' like Arwen is alive as the leaves are blowing aorund her. An Autumn nap in the backyard hammock perhaps? Elves doing yardwork out-of-frame would explain the leaf-blowing... * My own crackpot theory of the "surprise 'death'" or however beaks described it. I think he saw Eomer holding the "body" of Eowyn--in fact, I think that's the scene in the trailer where he's wailing so horrifically. If I remember correctly, Eomer reaches Theoden in time for the king to name him his heir to Rohan; Eomer is grieved of course, and calls for the king's guard to carry the body to the city before the battle can roll over it. But it's soon after THAT that he sees, com-PLETE-ly unexpectedly, his sister on the battlefield, laying broken and still--and that's when Eomer really loses it. The unexpecting audience may even be thinking she's dead (uh-oh, another fake death! ;). He cradles Eowyn, wails, comes totally unglued, rallies his men and starts up the chant for DEATH! DEATH! DEATH! DEATH! ....Holy moly I can't wait for this friggin MOVIE...!!! ...Anyway, that's what I think was the "surprise 'death' of a character" that these lucky (bastard) folx saw. * Now to Wormtongue and his bossman.. I think the order of things plays out much like Conan laid it out. Here's a thought--how about the earlier parts of the scene? They have to apporach Orthanc, Gandalf calls Saruman out... how much parley, and Voice of Saruman will be in, even abridged? How many will be addressed and (attempted) charmed? Think Gimli will get his lines in? Gandalf better get to say (however the lines really go), "Saruman, you have No Color! I cast you out of the order. Your staff is BROKEN!" Wonder if Saruman tries to slink away, and Gandalf commands him back for more tongue-lashing. And Grima has to huck the Gondorian Bowling Ball (no finger holes--it's an old off-color Gondorian Joke punchline, just ask Miami) out the window. Will that be what sets off a beating by Saruman? With half of a staff in each hand (heh heh)? We've seen the pic of Grima on his back on the floor of Orthanc, dagger in his hand... * Seepgood (that Dusk til Dawn ref had my eyes watering!), and mortsleam, isn't it odd that during all of this talk of "alternate LOTR directors" nobody ever suggested Tarantino..? [SCENE: Dive Rivendell sushi bar.] HH: (heavily accented Common tongue) "No, no! You speak Elvish, like Elves speak it." ARAGORN: "No kidding! I heard it was kinda hard." HH: "So, why do you come to Rivendell?" [Dialogue now in Elvish, subtitled] ARAGORN: "I am looking for Hattori Hanzo." [HH freezes, someone drops a dish in the kitchen. Dialogue continues, gravely, in Elvish] HH: "What do you want with Hattori Hanzo?" ARAGORN: "I need Gondorian steel." HH: "Why do you need Gondorian steel?" ARAGORN: "I have vermin to kill." [speaking Common tongue] HH: "You must have big rats." ARAGORN: "Huge." ....And can't forget Sauron's last words after Isildur cut the Ring from his hand: "That... IS a Hanzo blade..." (boom!)
Back by popular demand! by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 10:27:54 AM
Well, Elanor asked after me, so here I am, blushing and giggling. How you all doing in here? Woulda popped in earlier but for all the spite and bile flying about.---- How to sum up my thoughts: --- the 'unexpected (near?)death', well, I think Mr.Beaks just forgot this from the book. I can think of no less than 5 characters who die, or nearly die, in the books. Could be any one of them. -------- Gandalf's staff. Gandalf has so far carried three different staffs in the films. The first one he lost in the battle with Saruman, you can see during that scene that he has carved a niche for his pipe in the gnarled end of the staff. After he escapes, the next staff he has is different (whether he made a new one, or recovered it from where he kept it, who knows?), the shape of the roots at the end is diferent, and instead of a niche for his pipe (which is lost along with the staff, and we never {so far} see him smoke again), he has a notch for his glowy-crystal thing. He loses this staff fighting Durin's Bane, and then gets his white staff along with his new robes and Galadhrim cloak and broach in Lothlorien. Phew, that'll do for now. :)
Back by popular demand! by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 10:27:54 AM
Well, Elanor asked after me, so here I am, blushing and giggling. How you all doing in here? Woulda popped in earlier but for all the spite and bile flying about.---- How to sum up my thoughts: --- the 'unexpected (near?)death', well, I think Mr.Beaks just forgot this from the book. I can think of no less than 5 characters who die, or nearly die, in the books. Could be any one of them. -------- Gandalf's staff. Gandalf has so far carried three different staffs in the films. The first one he lost in the battle with Saruman, you can see during that scene that he has carved a niche for his pipe in the gnarled end of the staff. After he escapes, the next staff he has is different (whether he made a new one, or recovered it from where he kept it, who knows?), the shape of the roots at the end is diferent, and instead of a niche for his pipe (which is lost along with the staff, and we never {so far} see him smoke again), he has a notch for his glowy-crystal thing. He loses this staff fighting Durin's Bane, and then gets his white staff along with his new robes and Galadhrim cloak and broach in Lothlorien. Phew, that'll do for now. :)
Back by popular demand! by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 10:29:13 AM
Well, Elanor asked after me, so here I am, blushing and giggling. How you all doing in here? Woulda popped in earlier but for all the spite and bile flying about.---- How to sum up my thoughts: --- the 'unexpected (near?)death', well, I think Mr.Beaks just forgot this from the book. I can think of no less than 5 characters who die, or nearly die, in the books. Could be any one of them. -------- Gandalf's staff. Gandalf has so far carried three different staffs in the films. The first one he lost in the battle with Saruman, you can see during that scene that he has carved a niche for his pipe in the gnarled end of the staff. After he escapes, the next staff he has is different (whether he made a new one, or recovered it from where he kept it, who knows?), the shape of the roots at the end is diferent, and instead of a niche for his pipe (which is lost along with the staff, and we never {so far} see him smoke again), he has a notch for his glowy-crystal thing. He loses this staff fighting Durin's Bane, and then gets his white staff along with his new robes and Galadhrim cloak and broach in Lothlorien. Phew, that'll do for now. :)
Ooops! Sorry for the triple post. : ( by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 10:50:56 AM

Make that SIX dead or mostly dead characters, by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 11:26:41 AM
I forgot about Saruman. ----SPOILERS-------- So, it could be Saruman dieing where he's not supposed to, Theoden dieing where he IS supposed to, Faramir apparently being mortally wounded by the Nazgul, Frodo being put into a near-death coma by Shelob, Eowyn being nearly killed bu the Witch-King, or Denethor burning himself. ---------- On the subject of favourite scenes, most of the Fellowship ones I would suggest have been mentioned, and I think TTT needs recognition (it has it's flaws but they are way outnumbered by it's moments of greatness). ---1)Gollum/Smeagol conversations, but in particular the last one that sets up Shelob and ends the film. Shivers-down-the-spine stuff, at least for me. ---2) Gandalf and the Balrog: After the the prologue in FOTR, I didn't think TTT could possibly top it with it's opening. But between this and Gollum's final scene, TTT's start and end were, for me at least, PERFECT. ---3) The Three Hunters/Riders of Rohan. Perfectly realised bit's of the book (over done dwarf humour notwithstanding) "3 days and nights pirsuit, no food, no rest, and no sign of our quarry but what bare rock can tell!" through to "Look for your friends, but do not trust to hope, it has forsaken these lands." I thought Rohan, it's culture, it's theme music, it's arms and artifacts, and it's actors (I demand more Eomer! He was EXACTLY how I imagined him!) were wonderful. ---4) The end of the siege of Helm's Deep. "Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn! ORTH EORLINGAS!" .. "Theoden King stands alone." "Not alone. ROHIRRIM!", that beautiful charge down into the valley with the dawn light. It's only gonna get better with the Extended Edition's reintroduction of the Huorns. Phew! That's enough for now.
RE: Cherub Rock/Mithrandir's staff... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 20th, 2003 11:48:01 AM
... you're right about Saruman NOT taking Gandy's staff in the book. In fact, Saruman probably could not have done so without casting him out of the Order of Istari, which he did not have the authority to do, as Gandalf does to him, BREAKING his staff during the "parley" on the steps of Orthanc in T2T. I guess he figured that there wasn't a whole lot Gandalf could do with it stuck up there on the top of his tower anyway. But then Saruman never gave much heed to the birds and beasts of ME did he?; "he has a mind of engines and wheels". But again, unless I
Damn speeling errors! by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 11:55:43 AM
"Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn! FORTH EORLINGAS!"....Plus "bY the Witch King", not "bU"! --- By the by, thank you Pallando_Blue, I've been rolling Seepgood's (hilarious) Dusk 'Til Dawn reference around in my head for AGES trying to work out where it's from. --- Quick hello's to Irritable and Cutest_of_borg. Nice to see you guys again. :) --- Finally, it's about time I said something I've been thinking for a while; some of you guys (morGoth, Pallando_Blue, Elanor, probably others who I can't remember off the top of my head) write great posts. I fancy myself quite good with words, but you guys are masters of wonderful turns of phrase that make a talkback a joy to read. Thank you. :)
Way to go, mayaV, elanor, Orson et al. by mortsleam	Oct 20th, 2003 02:01:56 PM
Wow, lots of great posts here, lemme, get started *** mayaV, re: personal visions. I have mine as you have yours as PJ has his and they are all together (Goo-goo g
Meanwhile, back at the Tirith View Nursing Home [Did someone men by Miami Mofo	Oct 20th, 2003 04:42:30 PM
Old Ioreth, long retired and a current resident of the Tirith View Nursing Home, was a bit of a demon in her wheelchair who loved nothing more than to charge around the home, taking corners on one wheel and getting up to maximum speed in the long corridors. Because the poor woman was one sandwich short of a picnic, the other residents tolerated her and some of the gentlemen actually joined in. > One day Ioreth was speeding down a corridor when a door opened and Derufin the Doofus stepped out with his arm outstretched. "STOP!" he shouted in a firm voice. "Have you got a license for that thing?" Ioreth fished around in her handbag, pulled out an old lembas wrapper and held it up to him. "OK," he said as Ioreth sped down the hall. > As she took the corner near the cafeteria on one wheel, Derfuin's brother, Duilin the Daft, popped out in front of her, motioning for her to stop. "Have you got proof of insurance?" he asked. Ioreth dug in her bag, pulled out a small piece of hithlain and shook it under his nose. Duilin nodded and said, "Fine. Carry on, ma'am." > Ioreth prodeeded on, picking up speed in the hallway leading to rehab. Suddenly, Ingold the Ingeniuos stepped out in front of her, stark naked and holding a very sizable erection in his hand. "Oh good grief," cried Ioreth. "Not the breathalyzer test again."
Ahem, yes, I couldn't agree more. by raw_bean	Oct 20th, 2003 07:19:04 PM
Anyway [ ;) C-of_B ], I just remembered a scene from FOTR I don't think anyone's mentioned (although I think I'm gonna have to rewatch TTT to drum some more scenes up for that film, remind people that it has more positives than negatives) and that is: The scene in the woods of Parth Galen, under Amon Hen. Boromir finally confronts Frodo about the Ring, and is corrupted utterly, if only for a brief moment. I realise the situation and the dialogue were both changed from the book to some extent, yet the first time I saw that scene, and every time since, I've thought that it captured the tone and feel of a wonderful part of the book with absolute perfection. To me, that scene IS Lord of the Rings, I get so into it when I see it that I can't think of Sean Bean or Elijah Wood, there is only Boromir and Frodo. There is no New Zealand, only Middle-Earth. There is no book or film, it just transports me so well that I'm in that world. All that, and that huge statue's head in the background looks wicked cool, too. :)
elanor curtsies and blushes by elanor	Oct 20th, 2003 10:45:47 PM
Thanks, y'all! But hey, I'm just doing my job. Hey Moaters, I knew you were confused about which Gandalf moment Sheeld was talking about (how did I remember that name???) but I enjoyed reading your wizard lecture nonetheless.* Ahem, Miami? Where do you get those hoary (heh heh) jokes???? I love them and the Gondorian flavor you add makes them far more palatable (or should I say easier to swallow?).You know, what you slightly newer tailenders are complimenting is how I got hooked way back when. The amazing writing styles of Moaters and Pallando and morGoth and Ingold (and Miami's limericks and jokes). Ya know, since a while after T2T, it got mighty dry here in tailend land, but it sure feels good now. We kept saying we need some NEWS and yet kept coming back to the bare table, picking over old dragon bones. But now we've not only got NEWS, we've got new company and a right fine bunch o'folks it is! The more the merrier I say and here's to us all. (Clink)As for favorite scenes, I'd better not start on scenes as I'll be writing all night, repeating what's already been mentioned, of course. I'm gonna try to just mention 9 moments from each film that I love immensely. FOTR 1: Starting in the dark with elvish! "I amar prestar aen" Perfect!T2T 1: Gandalf/Balrog falling, blazing fight, with music to match. FOTR 2: The smoke ring and smoke ship; T2T 2: Gollum. Every single thing. FOTR 3: Frodo. Every single thing Elijah does. T2T 3: Aragorn's ear to the ground. Forth the three hunters! FOTR 4:Gandalf's heartbroken smile when Frodo says "I will take It". T2T 4: Aragorn pushin' them there doors open. FOTR 5:Aragorn/Boromir "Have you ever seen it, Aragorn? The white tower of Ecthelion? Her banners caught high on the morning breeze. Have you ever been called home...by the sound of silver trumpets? T2T 5: Frodo's determined face at the Black Gates when he says "I do not ask you to come with me, Sam". FOTR 6: The utterly perfect re-creation of the Chamber of Marzabul. T2T 6: The utterly perfect re-creation of the fortress of Helm's Deep. FOTR 7: "She gave me three". T2T 7: Give me your name, horse master...FOTR 8: Aragorn's walk toward the Uruks at Parth Galen. T2T 8: Pippin and Merry at Entmoot "We've got the Shire..." "The fires of Isengard will spread..."FOTR 9 Of course you are, and I'm coming with you! T2T 9: ROHIRRIM! and the charge that follows.**Well I'm stopping here only as a mighty act of will. I MUST get some other writing done tonight! Later, mellyn nin
Nice Miami, nice... by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 21st, 2003 12:34:07 AM
HAs anyone seen the pic of the playing cards over at TORN? Some new ROTK pics, (or at least slightly different versions of one we've already seen.) Oh and Happy birthday, Telcontar!!! It's good to see some of the "old" TE's, still popping in from time to time, (ie: Vanyar, Greenleaf etc) has anyone heard from Bjarki or BG lately? Even Alice has been a little absent lately, a sign of things to come perhaps? (sigh...) Cheers.
Rant! by greenleaf	Oct 21st, 2003 01:39:03 AM
Elanor: I should have remembered you as a New Yorker from your acclaimed review of something LotR-related a year or so ago on this very site. I feel very ashamed. If I had, I could have included a few more winks in your direction, and stressed the fact that New York is probably the greatest place in the whole of the United States, and that the rest of the country is populated by suckers, even though I never strayed so far south or west as to venture beyond the borders of New England. Times Square, which I believe is the most significant representation of all that I loathe, had to be seen to be believed, and even though it clearly isn
sidestepping the rant entirely, by djinnj	Oct 21st, 2003 02:07:50 AM
I'll get back to some fun. Favorites? How to pick?? Here
Hmm....Seems much too long winded and rambling to be called a 'r by raw_bean	Oct 21st, 2003 07:00:29 AM
Anyway, nice choices djinnj. Gimli's gift giving sequence is great, as is the whole scene, but I like the interactions between Aragorn and Celeborn/Galadriel. Nice to see the lord of the Galdhrim get some dialogue, and the digital grading used on Galadriel makes for a wonderfully subtle special effect when she talks of Aragorn's choices. Cate Blanchet speaks Sindarin wonderfully. Also that's a wonderful quote you dug up, although I think you are right to believe it won't make the film in that form. They never got to eat the rabbit, in the TTT film, and the Oliphaunt scene won't be such a big moment for film goers as it was for Sam, so film goers won't remember the scene as much as book-readers who saw it through Sam's eyes. ------ The only thing about Greenleaf's rant that stayed with me, was where he described Aragorn as young. Viggo is in his forties, playing a character who's 87. Where's young? He doesn't act young either, I don't know what he was getting at.
Whew, that was a fair-jawcracker Mr Greenleaf, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 21st, 2003 07:21:26 AM
A rant it certainly was. Although I too share the nagging suspicion that there was more to the changes to the LOTR plot, than simple changes necessary to adapt the story to a filmable length. I (with no inclination to "prove" my theory or provide any supporting evidence whatsoever), put these changes down to the desire of the screen writers to leave their 'mark' on the story. I might be revealing the purist in me to the disgust of some, but claiming you are changing the storyline due to the necessities involved in adapting a written piece into a filmable length, and then go on to add elements to the story of your own devising, smacks of insincerity to me. Am I happy with these movies? Certainly. Could I wish for something better? In reality, no. I can't see that a more faithful version will ever occur. In my own mind, I certainly do wish for a more faithful version. My own wish, (that I realise will not ever happen) is for the story to be adapted for film, with no additional material inserted whatsoever, but the dialogue etc from the book to be filmed verbatim. Still one must be thankful for what one gets. I am happy that the extended versions are mainly concerned with bringing the films closer to the books. I don't really subscribe to the American man theory, you espouse Greenleaf, mainly because I'm not American. I understand what you're saying, my own country is awash with the all-pervading American culture, but I don't think LOTR is a part of that. Cheers.
LOTR as "American" movies... by orson	Oct 21st, 2003 08:33:17 AM
Great to see how many people are willing to share their favorite moments. Way too many for me too comment on each one......though I notice that Boromir's death is a recurring theme. The scenes people are mentioning I can totally agree with - though there is one that leaves me perplexed: Aragorn opening the door at Helm's Deep - I know a lot of people count this as a favorite moment but it just seems to go right over my head!****Greenleaf, I'd have to disagree that LOTR is directed specifically at the American market because these movies take an awful lot more at the International box office than in the US. I'd say it's more accurate to say that they are directed at the mass-market. And be honest: were they ever likely to be otherwise? I think anyone who was expecting these movies to be done in an arty "European" style was deluding themselves in the first place. Clearly, if LOTR was ever to be translated into film, it was going to be as BLOCKBUSTER movies. It costs a fortune to recreate Middle Earth and the studio needs to be able to cover its costs - hence the absolute neccessity of making them for the mass market. From this point of view, it is remarkable that PJ has given these movies as much integrity as they have. Of course, you could argue that the worldwide "mass-market" taste has been influenced and cultivated by American taste, but that's too much for me to go into here...
SPOILER slip in the Revolutions reviews? by Pallando Blue	Oct 21st, 2003 11:20:54 AM
Harry lets something slip... "BTW - is this year, the year of Blind Heroes? DAREDEVIL, ONCE UPON A TIME IN MEXICO and MATRIX REVOLUTIONS... and of course with what Peter did... RETURN OF THE KING.... I've said too much." Well now! Some speculations in the TB as to what the hell he meant by that, but one fellow claims to have the "facts": "The Mouth of Sauron is to be completely blind. Jackson has taken the name literally and has Sauron speaking through this character (thus Mouth of Sauron). He will be wearing a helmet from the nose up, with only his rotting mouth visible. This is not speculation, but fact." But according to whom? First I'd heard of it, and ya know, I got no problem with it. Sounds pretty fargin cool! We'll see, yes, we shall see... *** I had a fresh cup of coffee and chunk of morning to spare, so I actually made it through the greeneleaf rant (only fair I figure, what with the 8-page loads I dump here on occasion). Just a few things. Obviously you feel the LOTR movies so far are poor (at best) adaptations. Do you also feel they are bad movies? Or is the latter inextricable from the former? ...As for "The Life of Davd Gale" interlude, not sure what your point is there. That flick was universally panned, yes, even down here in the U.S., and died a fast quiet death in the American B.O. Was pretty much dumped by its studio in one of those months slated for dumping bad movies. Maybe the only person on the planet who disagrees with your (near-universally adopted long long ago) opinion of the film was the person sitting next to you, or something? Not the best flick to extrapolate sweeping cultural idioms from. Although congratulations on not being able to "stop the thinking in your head," unlike, presumably, most everyone else on the planet. cough ;) As for tailored to American audiences, the last 15 minutes of FOTR have to be the least like any other Hollywood movie I have ever seen in my life. More than one reason world audiences were stunned. * Never chimed in with Fave Moments, and now they're already all out there. So, some fine-tuning. FOTR: The most-quoted exchange so far in the trilogy, at least in my circle: "This, my friend, is a pint." "It comes in pints!? I'm getting one." T2T: Many have mentioned the last ride out of the King, and the arrival of Eomer. But the one line that sends chills down my spine, Every. Single. Time: "Let this be the hour we draw swords together." King addressing King. An end worthy of remembrance. The fire in Theoden's eyes, the recognition in Aragorn's... The rest of that charge, for me, is just gravy. [Other fine-tuning, in the above Hanzo scene I deeply regret not replacing "rats" with "orcs" as was my original intent. Curse rushed typing and the lack of self-edit! The twin banes of lowbrow comedy!] * ELROND: "You shall be The Fellowship Of The Ring! Here are your names: Frodo. Sam. Merry. Pippin. Aragorn. Gandalf. Boromir. Gimli. And Legolas." LEGOLAS: "Why am I 'Legolas'?" ELROND: "Cause you're a faggot." [Everybody laughs] LEGOLAS: "Why can't we pick our own names?" ELROND: I tried that once, it don't work. You get four guys fighting over who's gonna be Strider. Since nobody knows anybody else, nobody wants to back down. So forget it, I pick. Be thankful you're not Glorfindel." MERRY: "Yeah, but 'Merry'? That's too close to 'fairy'." LEGOLAS: "Yeah, Legolas sounds like Mr. Pussy. Tell you what, let me be Beowulf. That sounds good to me, I'm Beowulf." ELROND: "You're not Beowulf, somebody from another epic's Beowulf. You're Legolas." BOROMIR: "Who cares what your name is?" LEGOLAS: "Oh that's really easy for you to say, you're 'Boromir'. You got a cool-sounding name. So tell me, Boromir, if you think 'Legolas' is no big deal, you wanna trade?" ELROND: "Nobody's trading with anybody! Look, this ain't a goddamn fuckin city counsel meeting! Listen up Legolas. We got two ways here, my way or the Sundering Seaway. So what's it gonna be, Legolas?" LEGOLAS: "Elbereth Gilthoniel, Elrond, fuckin forget about it. This is beneath me. I'm Legolas, let's move on." ELROND: "We move on when I say we move on. Guys got me so mad I can hardly speak right. [Glares at them all] ...Let's get to work." [Turns to blackboard behind him, hastily chalked map of Middle-earth on it...]
Detours by mortsleam	Oct 21st, 2003 11:42:25 AM
Where are the characters at the beginning of Return of King? Is Aragorn ready to accept his destiny? Is Frodo slipping ever deeper under the thrall of the ring? Is Gollum about to lead Sam and Frodo to Shelob? Are the Ents at Isengard? Will Gandalf and the three hunters reunite with Merry and Pippin and then split up again to go to Edoras, the Paths of the Dead and Minas Tirith? Is Eowyn feeling like she needs to do more to protect her people, possibly by cross-dressing? Is Faramir in deep doody with his father? Is Sauron becoming convinced that a powerful leader of men has in his possession a hobbit who may be carrying the ring, and that hobbit (by whatever route) will end up at the White City? Yes? THEN WHY ARE PEOPLE WHINING?!?!? *** Sorry about that. The point is, while the detours were numerous and regrettable, everyone is basically where they need to be. And I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't think that audiences needed to see Aragorn first doubt then slowly accept his role as King simply doesn't understand the fundamental aspect of movies. Since they already had so much exposition to get through and couldn't spare an hour or two explaining Aragorn's heritage and the history of the descendants of Numenore, PJ & Co. decided go by the BASIC RULES of screenwriting and "SHOW, NOT TELL." So they showed him having doubts, they showed him ingoring his heritage, they showed him in the wilds actively being a leader,(all of which is described, incidentally, in the Appendices) and now in the film which is sorta named after him, they'll show him claiming his throne. I can't argue that it would have been cool to see a dynamic, assured Dunedan kicking ass (although one could argue that's pretty much what you see at Weathertop and Moria and Amon Hen and Helm's Deep) but the fact is that as one of the main characters in this movie, he had to have some kind of arc. It's not just an "American" invention, it's a basic rule of storytelling.
Hear, hear, Mortsleam. by raw_bean	Oct 21st, 2003 12:36:09 PM
Aragorn as he is in the books is not as major a character as he is in the films - he could never BE a main dramatic character when he's already been through all his drama! He's already gone through his character arc and ended up where he's going to be. The King has already returned, he's just waiting for the right time to claim his throne. In the film, taking him back to the beginning of his character arc, making him face and have to come to terms with his heritage, means we can actually connect with him as he goes through this, instead of finding it all out after the fact in the Appendices. Same with the Aragorn/Arwen relationship. They've added the drama, the indecision, that in the book had all long passed, again, that you could only really get into by reading the appendices. These changes allow us to witness the huge drama in these character's lives as it happens, rather than having it as backstory. Making it "Will Aragorn claim his throne and rise to being King?" and "Will Arwen forsake her people and her immortality to be with Aragorn?" instead of "Years agao Aragorn found out his heritage and one day soon he'll be the King." and "Arwen had a tough decision years ago but she made her choice to give up her immortality for Aragorn and now everythings going to be fine, as soon as he's King.".
Did I hear someone say TATOW ? by Skyway Moaters	Oct 21st, 2003 12:38:14 PM
... applied to ELANOR?! No no no dear fellow. The weapon that the fair Hobbit lass wields is FAR more insidious, precise, deadly and elegant than the over-the-top, chest-beating, testosterone fueled, sometimes frothing at the mouth: TATOW could EVER be; and has hitherto been referred to as PATOW, (POLITE acid tongue of Westernesse). It's like comparing a Claymore (the sword or the mine, either is apt) to a rapier. AND, she wields it with such exquisite finesse that the "eviceree" doesn't even realize he/she's been disemboweled until they trip over their small intestine when turning to run away!
Sooty Vala reacts to rant near Budge Ford! by morGoth	Oct 21st, 2003 01:25:40 PM
Hmm, Gloucester is, as it
Aragorn: rewritten as Hamlet? by irritable	Oct 21st, 2003 02:19:15 PM
Bloody good idea (as I said more calmly some TB's ago). If you are implying, mortsleam and raw_bean, that book Aragorn is a rather earnest Plank of Wood compared to film Aragorn, I couldn't agree more. And who better than spunky, diffident Viggo to reveal the Shakespearean indeciseness of Aragorn. As for the backstory, how do the writers sensitively explain that Strider, like sixteen direct ancestors, has spent much of the previous 87 years skulking the borders of the Shire, unpaid, unthanked, protecting rustic imbecile midgets, who remain unaware of the favour, from Bad Things whilst waiting for a 3,000 year old prophesy to eventuate. Forget it!**A favorite moment not, I think, mentioned earlier - Theoden dressing for war, reciting part of the heroic poem "Where is the horse and rider ..." Bernard Hill, a great actor at the height of his powers, bringing some lines to life that a lessor actor would have butchered. The hairs on my neck saluted.Pallantarantino: your flight of fantasy demonstrates why Quentin would have been disembowelled by fans if let loose on this project.**As for American Cultural Imperialism: With this movie? Non-mainstream Kiwi director, many Antipodean stage actors instead of Hollywood stars in supporting roles, Kiwi special effects, Aussie cinematographer, Canadian composer, UK book illustrators as central members of the design team, quintessentially English book (quite) closely adapted by Kiwi screenwriters, no american accents audible. Does Greenleaf suggest that huge box-office constitutes cultural imperialism? Yeah right (in like, you know, NOT-land).
Heh, irritable by Pallando Blue	Oct 21st, 2003 02:42:37 PM
Being disemboweled by fans is exactly why QT has said he'd never in a million years adapt a comic book hero (see: ebonic plague, above). :) * And now, because there's no gag in the world that can't be run into the ground with a little repetition, here is the Alternate Version of the above scene (think of it as a Disc 3 Easter Egg) (or not). (And no, I will NOT apologize!) * SAURON: "Shire. Baggins. Not a lot to go on, but we need to get going. Here are your names. The Witch-king. Kamul. Nazgul #3. Nazgul #4. Nazgul #5. Nazgul #6. Nazgul #7. Nazgul #8. Nazgul #9. NAZGUL #9: "Why am I 'Nazgul #9'?" SAURON: "Cause you're a faggot." [Everybody laughs] NAZGUL #9: "Why can't we pick our own names?" SAURON: I tried that once, it don't work. You get four guys fighting over who's gonna be Gothmog. Since nobody knows anybody else, nobody wants to back down. So forget it, I pick. Be thankful you're not Smeagol." KAMUL: "But 'Kamul'? That's too close to 'camel'." NAZGUL #9: "Nazgul #9 sounds like Extra Minion. Tell you what, let me be Grendel. That sounds good to me, I'm Grendel." SAURON: "You're not Grendel, somebody from another epic's Grendel. You're Nazgul #9." THE WITCH-KING: "Who cares what your name is?" NAZGUL #9: "That's easy for you to say, you're 'The Witch-king'. You got a cool-sounding name. So tell me, Witch-king, if you think 'Nazgul #9' is no big deal, you wanna trade?" SAURON: "Nobody's trading with anybody! Look, this ain't a goddamn fuckin Council of Elrond! Listen up Nazgul #9. We got two ways here, my way or the volcano way. So what's it gonna be, Nazgul #9?" NAZGUL #9: "Jumpin Morgoth, Sauron, fuckin forget about it. This is beneath me. I'm Nazgul #9, let's move on." SAURON: "We move on when I say we move on. You guys got me so mad I can hardly talk. [Glares at them all] ...Let's get to work." [Turns to blackboard behind him, hastily chalked map of Middle-earth on it...]
I have just received permission by Heretic	Oct 21st, 2003 03:38:42 PM
Some of you were confused by my grand entrance. Some thought I was more than I claimed. Those few who didn
greenleaf is correct about one thing... by Miami Mofo	Oct 21st, 2003 03:48:02 PM
Despite the heat and humidity, Miami is a cool place. [Btw, I'm not sure if greenie was being sarcastic, but it really doesn't matter.] *The track listing for the RotK soundtrack looks cool, but it's the special edition being released the following week that has caught my interest. It's got a DVD with a five minute LotR trailer AND a twenty minute Howard Shore interview. I did not buy the FotR and T2T special edition soundtracks, just the regular ones, but with RotK I'll probably be compelled to spend the big bucks. ["The power of P.J. compells you!!!!!!!!!" :~)] elanor, believe it or not, I get all my Gondor jokes indirectly from Denethor! Actually, Pippin's Diamond tells me all the jokes that Denethor told Pippin. Apparently, before he got hooked on Sauron-vision, the old Steward (with the Manson-esque eyes) was the life of the party. Who woulda thunk it? I can't understand why Tolkien decided to delete his writings about this part of Denethor's personality. **Conan, please check your e-mail.
Irritable by raw_bean	Oct 21st, 2003 05:07:21 PM
It's not to say I don't like Aragorn in the books, he's a classic hero, a perfect champion for good against evil. But he needed to have more drama, conflict, doubt, if he was going to be a central figure of the films. That's why the books are largely told through the eyes of Hobbits, it just wouldn't have the same feel if Aragorn (of the books) or Gandalf was the central character. Oh, and great Theoden line; you're right, Bernard Hill is wonderful. Personally though, I prefer "If this is to be our end, then I would have them make _such_an_end_, as to be worthy of remembrance!".
Anti-rant. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 21st, 2003 09:34:28 PM
Hey. Just thought I'd peep in(couldn't resist!) and see how everyone is doin'. Another masterpiece of Talkback hath been wrought. Elanor, being accepted by folks like you and morGoth is more than reward enough to come here. I feel like I've found my niche, and it shall encourage me to strive toward greater efforts. Btw, you mentioned a couple of scenes I love (the council of Elrond; other badass Aragorn moments), but passed over.* Life of David Gale... ooo. There was a guy who was willing to die for what he believed in, eh?* Orson, the Aragorn opening the doors scene? I dunno, there's just something about the way it was shot that made it seem so damn cool. The best word I can think of is "transitional". When he throws open those big doors and strides in lookin' like the last rose 'o summer, but with that determined look on his face... Yyyeeaaahh. This makes you grateful you're not going up against this guy. I'm sure the scene has more appeal than that, but those were just my initial impressions when I saw it. One thing I never picked up on, was any subversive American commentary, negative or otherwise? Huh...? 'Goth, loved your comment about knowing yourself with age. Amen to that, brother! Lastly, bean, Theoden was such a vital character at the Battle of Helm's Deep, he actually gives Aragorn some competition as the film's resident human leader of warriors.
Trivial Pursuit Question: Who kills Grima Wormtoungue? Answer: by Tarin	Oct 22nd, 2003 12:12:05 AM
I don't mean to be the voice of doom, but is anyone else at all concerned by this Legolas shoots an arrow at Grima, arrow misses, arrow comes down and hits Grima on top of head and kills him nonsense? I'm sure it will be 'hilarious'. Or maybe it will be stupid and insulting, but I'm sure it will get a big laugh from the audience and that's just what we want, isn't it?
There you go by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 12:26:52 AM
All worked up in no time against ANTI-Americanism, and taking my every other word as an insult, or as a fallacy. ANTI-AMERICANISM. Two big words snapped together and ready to use. I have not the time nor the energy to respond tonight. But rest assured that I will not let these... slanderous accusations go unanswered. Don't get your hopes too high: I won't drive the point home with a ten ton mallet. Where you see clarity, I see oversimplification. Is that so hard to understand? If indeed I am with you or against you, then I suppose that leaves me no choice... I won't take the lesser of two evils... I'll have none of them. Good night.
Aragorn door opening scene by mayaV	Oct 22nd, 2003 02:25:16 AM
This Aragorn door opening scene ment to me: yes, the battle is set. Enjoy the last moment of relief and take a deep breath. It will be your last chance to do so! And truthh it became. I cant wait for the extendet edition! * I personally wouldn't see the LOTR movies as created for the US market. Living across the ocean in the old world, I can tell you by experience. * Saw Kill Bill last night! Yes! Jesus Christ, what a movie!
Knee jerk defence of U.S. ... by irritable	Oct 22nd, 2003 04:52:35 AM
...or just pointing out glaring logical errors in your argument, Greenleaf. You said: #It [LotR] has been tailored to the American public, and the English-speaking world, who represent not only the largest market, but the dominant cultural influence, through a very successful, global marketing and market-shaping strategy that serves both American and foreign corporations. You are this very successful, very lucrative model, so maybe you cannot see. I see it, and am weary of it. I can understand why you don
It's Wednesday! by Miami Mofo	Oct 22nd, 2003 05:38:08 AM
Eight weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! *"The Man in the Moon was drinking deep, / and the cat began to wail; / A dish and a spoon on the table danced, / The cow in the garden madly pranced, / and the little dog chased his tail." *Good luck tonight, P.B.
Huh? by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 06:18:54 AM
Gollum's third eyelash from the left WASN'T CGI? Bravo sir! That's some fine acting! Never have I seen an eyelash so masterfully portrayed...but wouldn't it be Heritical to accept an award for something that comes so, obviously, natural?
Aw... by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 06:25:16 AM
...now ya'll have made me blush. I don't consider myself much of a writer but it warms my heart to know folks may consider my lowly blatherings. I can't hold a candle to most of you and what has kept me here is reading what the rest of you have to say. The BEST thing is that I've learned so much about Tolkien and his works by meeting such knowledgeable folks and getting your perspectives. Yes greenleaf, even you ELdar have something to say (nods AND winks!). Snif, think I'll go have a nice charcoaly blubber now.
Hey guys, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 22nd, 2003 06:40:32 AM
I bought the Indiana Jones trilogy on DVD today. I think GL's had a play with these as well. The music in them is VERY reminiscent of Ep 1. Very unhappy. Cheers.
Couldn't agree more, DevilsOwn. by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 07:55:25 AM
In fact, I think Bernard Hill gave one of the very best performances in LOTR yet. While I may not be totally happy with the way PJ and co. built up his doubt and indecision, I can't find any fault with BH's performance anywhere. As well as all his moments of glorious nobility, I found his grief for Theodred particularly poignant and moving. ---- MayaV, couldn't agree more, Kill Bill was great! ---- Didn't want to get involved in Greenleaf's debate, but I have to say I disagree. I'm from the UK, and without meaning any offence to anyone here, I'm fairly anti- American culture. It tends to be splattered all over us here in the UK, and many brits really dislike this. As Greenleaf says, American culture leads mass-market culture everywhere, but speaking as someone who shuns all the Nike, Gap, US pop music, MacDonalds, 'Friends', Calvin Klein, and the worst of the Hollywood Blockbusters (still haven't forgiven myself for allowing myself to be roped into seeing Charlie's Angels 2), I found the LOTR films to be very UN-Americanised, to my great delight. The Hollywood sentimentality that made 'Braveheart' seem as much American as Scottish was absent, the majority of the dialogue was either from the book, or was close to it, the cast was mainly British, and with more Australians than Americans. I cannot equate ANYTHING with 'Geoffrey' from 'Hetty Wainthrop Investigates'(Dominic Monaghan) in it with 'Americanised'!
Sarcastic Elf of Ossiriand gets Woodland Knickers in a wad near by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 09:43:47 AM
Remember that this forum causes frequent misunderstandings due to its very nature. So, yeah, it
Sorry C_of_B, I missed your question. by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 10:11:53 AM
I've never heard of Joe Millionaire, in answer. Doesn't necessarily mean it's never been shown here, my TV viewing is quite limited. As for Charlie's Angel's 2, I went out with some female friends from college, and try as I might, once we were at the cinema I could not convince them to see something, ANYTHING, except CA2! Finding Nemo, and POTC are far superior films, and I thoroughly enjoyed them. As for American culture being shoved down our throats, it's not too bad, except when it's TV with ridiculous British stereotypes and terrible British accents in it, a la Daphne in Frasier, early Buffy TVS, and ANY brits EVER in Simpsons or South Park or anything. We're always either cockney geezas or upper class toffs speaking the Queens English. It's fair enough taking the mickey out of us in your TV shows, but then to turn around and SELL those shows to US is just taking the p***!! --- ;)
Mr. Blue... by mortsleam	Oct 22nd, 2003 10:12:06 AM
There is some hilarious talkbacking going in the Muppet "Wizard of Oz" article about casting for a Muppet "Puppet Fiction," or "Reservoir Frogs." Enter at your own risk...
"Terrorist-friend"? More like TERRORIST! Hijacker! by Pallando Blue	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:43:59 AM
"Take zees Talk-a-back to Frahnch Ca-NAY-dia!" ;~) Hee, just kidding. Actually, I should have used the Dubya pronunciation, "terr'st" (one syllable). *** My last and only go-round on this greenleaf-politico-culturo left-field tangent. (1) Irritable and raw-bean, um, what they said. LOTR, "Americanized"? Good grief! (2) And this goes out to bean, too, and all others of foreign lands. First (2a?), I agree and offer a sincere blanket unrepresentative apology from the United States of Pop-Cultural Marketing Imperialism. Second (2b), okay, fine, you're sick of the stuff that floats off our borders. TRY LIVING HERE! Surrounded by it coast-to-coast, minute-to-minute, soaked and submerged and boiled daily in hot oily product advertising and corporate-engineered focus-grouped committee-programmed "entertainment". As a Movie and Music Geek residing in the U.S., I regularly have to put in HARD WORK to find the Good Stuff and actively avoid the chaff, because as bad as the crap is that you all get leaking out of our borders, we have shoved in our faces 100-fold. This doesn't mean we like it, or that that stuff's "our culture," it only means there's money to be made in advertising and the entertainment industry, and making money is very much ingrained in the U.S. culture. C'est la capitaliste, c'est la vie. The genuine culture of the United States, though, [well, crap, here he goes. superimpose waving flag; cue swelling strings] isn't something that's neatly packaged "American" and globalized -- it's regional, almost tribal; a very real and distinct culture is there to be found on the smaller scale, the tighter focus, different from coast to midwest to coast, from state to state, from city to city, from block to block. Southern culture is different from Midwest culture, from Pacific Northwest culture. Harlem has a rich cultural heritage, wholly different from, I dunno, Greenwich Village, or, broader, the Bronx. There's Appalachia, there's Chocolate City (my home!), there's Texas. [hell, at this point might as well add some pounding major-chord brass to those swelling strings] We are United States -- "America" actually covers two entire continents, and referring to this nation with the one word can set burrs under saddles of heads of state (perhaps we should all be grateful we don't share the continent of "North Vespucciland"?) -- and our REAL culture is a bazillion local ones, which we are still very much new, sometimes even hesitant, at exporting and trading them amongst ourselves. [200-member Black Southern Baptist Choir enters from behind audience, lays into a funky "God Bless America"] So, if you want to know U.S. culture, look closer, but expect a bazillion answers to the question. It's a magical irony [PB wipes "tear" from eye with shirt collar] that it's our very diversity that identifies us, and unifies us. ("We have Country AND Western!") So, try to forgive us for producing so many marketing executives, and their global aspirations (a forgiveness we find hard to do ourselves, especially when no apology's been offeredby said greedy jackal marketing executives). We have less in common with ourselves than does just about any other nation on the planet, so when they try to sell to all of us, the common denominator is far more reduced than it would need to be in a less heterogenous society. Believe me when I say most of us here don't like those people or what they do any more than you do, and we have to put up with their evil in our lives a hell of a lot more than does anyone else on the planet. So, there ya go, I'm done, and again, sorry about all the crap this country puts out there. But MAN, these LOTR movies ain't that crap, by a wide margin. [musicians, confused and directionless at this point, sort of sputter out, and wander off stage, mumbling] (2c) I will say, though, that the Reality Show phenomenon is very much a European product. Thanks a (metric) ton, guys! We were degenerating well enough without your bright ideas! ;) * Okay, no more on that subject. Ever, I promise. Feel free to not adress it whatsoever. Here on out, all LOTR, all the time! God bless LOTR, and God bless the United States of Vespucciland. * mort, I'll try to check it out! But I slipped into caffeine-induced long-winded blather again, and have squandered much of my AICN time-wasting time today. *** Miami, gracias! And I got your e-mail. Fret not! ;) Hilarious joke, by the way, my Dad said he was sharing it with Mom immediately. :D (Let's just hope he doesn't literally -- ew) Too bad the Marlins (or, as far as I'm concerned, the Not-Yankees) apparently aren't mudders like the 'Canes. So y'all get it done in six! PLEASE. *** OOPS, back to LOTR. :) ....Is NOONE interested in that blind Mouth of Sauron rumor?!?!? C'mon now!! Let's get some REAL chatter out there! What's the thinking?
Parenthetical Ballyhoo...re: Blind Heroes by mortsleam	Oct 22nd, 2003 12:28:05 PM
I think I agree with whoever on that TB said they believe PJ will try to show Frodo's all-encompassing ring obsession by having him go blind, so that literally all he sees is the Ring (And of course the Flaming Slit
Oh God Pallando, I'm sorry for Reality TV! by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 12:39:47 PM
I hadn't thought of that, you guys have the travesties of Big Brother and Pop(later American) Idol to thank us for. Hangs head in shame. ---- C_of_B, can't wait for that Simpson's episode (I already heard that somewhere, but forgot about it), but the ironic thing is, while we get U.S. TV (Pallando's right, Mexicans, Argentinians, and others are all Americans, too. You guys are specifically U.S.ians, or Statesians, or something) and films foisted upon us, we get it months or years behind you guys! When it's shite, it's shite no matter how old it is, when it's good stuff like Simpsons, it's a real bugger having to wait ages for it!
Hmm, I don't think I like 'blind MOS', by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 12:54:22 PM
Not sure why yet, I'll have to ponder it further. --- C_of_B, will it be a Kleenex moment? In the book, it's not, because they realise the MOS's just bluffing, he say's he found a spy. The heroes know that if he REALLY had Frodo (and Sam?), the discussion would not be happening because Sauron would have the Ring and would be kicking some arse. ------ There's a point. I don't know if it's come up anywhere, ever, but anyone know what specifically would happen if old Thu got his Ring back? Would he take physical form? Would the Ulaire become more powerful, maybe be able to overpower mens' wills with the Nine? Would his orcs and forces be imbued with some kind of berserker might, a 'fell madness of strength', or something? I know the Three would be deep in the ****, but that wouldn't be enough to make "his victory so complete that none could forsee the end of it while this world lasts.". I may just have not read the books recently enough, but I feel like this is something never clearly defined. Is it dealt with in the later books of HoME (I'm on No. 8), or in the 'Letters' (not got it yet)? Anyone?
I by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 01:36:54 PM

cutest by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 01:41:47 PM

Smokey and the Hobbit by orson	Oct 22nd, 2003 01:58:03 PM
Meant to get this in earlier: congrats to Elanor for mentioning the smoke-ring blowing scene which immediately confirms FOTR as a movie not made FOR Tolkien fans but BY Tolkien fans. What other director working these days would have thought of THAT scene? And even if they did - would they have put in a smokey ship going west? I very much doubt it.***** Love the MOS idea; hope it's true. I always wanted to see the look on MOS's face when he realised his side had lost - maybe if Aragorn kicks his butt, we'll get to see it in the movie.
The Mouth by Miami Mofo	Oct 22nd, 2003 01:59:11 PM
Interesting theory ya got there, P.B. Could work quite nicely -- just like mine would. Remember? One of my "crackpot theories" said that The Mouth would do Frodo's interrogation at Cirith Ungol. Gotta get old Bruce more screen time! ***raw_bean (and Alice and Xyzan): I understand your feelings about the exportation of our (un)culture, but if may make one small suggestion: YOU GOTTA TRY KRISPY KREME's if they're ever allowed in. [I believe Harrod's wants to start selling them, but there's a movement to prevent that from happening.] But make sure you get 'em when the "Hot" sign is illuminated. They are amazingly GREAT!!!!!!!!!
Gandalf: "That wasn by Sabster	Oct 22nd, 2003 06:51:54 PM
Pippin:
Short list of favorite Two Towers scenes by morGoth	Oct 22nd, 2003 08:04:58 PM

Well morG, it would have been quicker just to say "Yes Raw_Bean, by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 08:09:00 PM
Those were along the lines of what I guessed, I was just wondering if anyone knew of something Tolkien himself might have said on the subject. I read that Fourth Age 'sequel' early draft in a bookshop when deciding that I should start reading the HoME, and I tend to agree with the good Prof. himself on that one. What I'd have much rather see him finish was 'The Lost Road'. (Oh, and thanks for not pointing out my miss-spelling of 'Ulairi'; that's what happens when you try and be clever instead of just saying 'wraiths' or 'nazgul'!)
Right on morG, by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 08:20:18 PM
that scene of Arwen's eventual end was beautiful, in every way. I NEVER spotted a mural of old Telperion and Laurelin though!! Must watch the DVD and try and find that! Just to claw back some geeky fanboy kudos though, I think you'll find Gollum says "So bright, sooo beautiful. My PREciouuuusss!" :P --- Warg riders were cool, you're right about Sharku, perfect orc. ---- And I stand corrected, Kevin Costner in Robin Hood showed me how England and an English legend SHOULD have been, complete with surgery-carrying-out Saracen of African descent, the ability to catapult yourself blind over a castle wall and somwehow hit a haybale(? spelling), and the ability to travel from Dover on the south coast, to nottingham in the north of England in about a day (obviously because Britain is so insignificantly small next to North America, you should be just about able to spit from Edinburgh to London!).
And now, by raw_bean	Oct 22nd, 2003 08:22:09 PM
seeing as how it's after 1am here in England, to bed. 'Night all!
There we go. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 22nd, 2003 09:10:48 PM
Y'know, I used to have a deep and abiding fondness for all things Canadian. Sigh. Leaf, I couldn't begin to imagine what your problem is. 'Course, that's prob'ly cuz it's too subtle fer me, right? But lemme see if I can (in my own course and hamfisted way) try to get handle on th' sitcheeation here. "... I won't take the lesser of two evils... I'll have none of them." Way ta cover yer ass, pal. Now, pull your head out of it and get to know a few people outside the A.A.S.P.C. (Arrogant Amateur Socio-Political Commentators). First of all, your pithy observations have jack shit to do with anything being said here (see sidebar at right, OFF-TOPIC BS), and yeah, I know firebrands like you thumb their noses at such narrow concepts as "rules", or consideration for anybody's feelings for that matter. Still, some people MIGHT have trouble getting the impact of whatever point you are trying to convey if you are making generalizations about a certain group. I'm sure this will nauseate you, but I'm just your average, hard-workin' demon. I do, however, have access to newspapers, radio, and even CNN. I'm aware of the world around me, I know all manner of of events occur that can color another culture's perceptions of my own. I hate that (oh, and would that I could police the human species!), but there's not much any of us can do about that. We make the best of what we have. A person of your insight should know that. And one of the most important lessons I ever had to learn is that wherever you go, peoples is peoples. Allow me to translate what irritable said for you, Sunshine: We aren't all like that, eh? The LotR movies are my favorite of all time, not Top Gun. It's true, the House That Freddy Built (and Austin Renovated)produced these films, but save for 4 American actors, they are pretty much an international joint. Hell, I thought that was the whole point of the Fellowship: Like the Tailenders here at the Talkback, a group of people from various cultures united by a common concern. Or, is that too "American" for you also?*** Bean, Bernard Hill was oustanding in Towers. I was so drawn in by the King who is redeemed. Yeah, I've long said far too much of U.S. ads, "journalism", and popular entertainment is a vast cultural wasteland. I guess I should consider myself fortunate I can just filter it out. But some of it does get to me sometimes. And I often wondered what our friends overseas thought of it. Now I know.
Part One: greenleaf strides in with his big elitist boots by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:17:26 PM
Did I say rant? Cause I mean dissertation. Misunderstanding cleared. This should end the discussion, and my appearances here, so I
Part Two: greenleaf indulges in lecturing the ignorant by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:19:25 PM
Orson:
Part Three: greenleaf goes international by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:20:14 PM
What does TATOW mean? *** morGy, you are overly defensive. My poking fun at your Gloucester was an attempt at humour. I did not seriously envision the absurd comparison between NY, NY and Gloucester, VA, as it is, well, absurd. As for facts, I make use of them too, but maybe you can
Part Four: Denial by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:22:32 PM
Dear irritable (nice name), you indirectly mention John Howe as a Brit; he is Canadian and he lives in Switzerland. I met him a couple times, quite briefly and informally, and he
Part Five: Death by greenleaf	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:26:59 PM
raw_bean:
I'm not a "closeted thinker" by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 22nd, 2003 11:47:40 PM
Thank you very much Greenleaf, I know what you're getting at but I've quite openly admitted my purist leanings on these tb's in the past. I do not shy away from them, but do not wish to engage in useless griping either. I simply resign myself to the fact that PJ's LOTR movies whilst magnificent efforts are not as close to the story of LOTR as I could wish and enjoy the movies for what they are. Tremendous efforts at modern epic filmmaking 'based' on JRRT's novels. Anyhoo back on topic if the Mouth of Sauron is blind in the movie, but guided by Sauron, I don't have any real problem wit this. It IS a good way of enabling Sauron to control his minions whilst not actually possessing a corporeal body (as told within the context of the movie, though this too has been changed from the book, sigh...) I wouldn't even mind a Aragorn v MOS (infused with Sauron's spirit) duke out. One thng that is interesting from the recent trailer is Aragorn clearly leading the forces of Gondor on a charge towards the Black Gate (which is wide open). Does this occur after Sauron is vanquished? We wonders, aye we wonders. Cheers.
Greenleaf, I appreciate your non-inflammatory reply by irritable	Oct 23rd, 2003 04:49:28 AM

Well Greenleaf, by raw_bean	Oct 23rd, 2003 05:10:35 AM
if your local culture is being eroded, I can only feel sorry for you. I myself am a proud Yorkshireman, and have both a local cultural heritage and a landscape that I love living in. Whilst we are bombarded with U.S. mass-market culture, I for one am quite happy and able to let it all wash past me where it's bad, and enjoy it (without being brainwashed, or anything) where it's good, like the Simpsons, for example, and the LOTR films. I suppose to some extent they ARE Americanised, but even where this works to the film's detriment somewhat, there is enough that feels very un-Hollywood blockbuster (to me at least), and enough quality throughout the film (even in some of the Americanised elements of it) to allow me to love them. As for Aragorn, whatever the source of the story telling convention of having to have emotional drama and a character arc, it is still worthy as it allowed me to feel for Aragorn, and connect with him in a way you don't in the books. And yet (I'm fairly certain that) in the final film he'll reach the state of grand nobility that allowed us to be in awe of him in the books, so I think the films will give us the best of both worlds. And as far as I'm concerned, the scene at the Breaking of the Fellowship, where Boromir tries to get the Ring from Frodo, is so un-Hollywood, un-Americanised, and so perfectly captures the spirit of the books, that I would consider the films worth watching even if that were the only great moment. As it is, that is merely the best (in my opinion) in a collection of wonderful scenes that allow the film to rise above any Americanisation or occasional dumbing down. All that, and these are really only screenwriting (and possibly acting) gripes you have with the films anyway. One thing I love so much in these films is the huge technical and artistic achievments that realise the world and cultures of Middle-Earth so wonderfully. Again, the films could be utter garbage in terms of script, and they would still be worth something just for this. I would quite happily own the DVD's, and play whem with the sound muted, or just zone out during dialogue and try t listen to the music, and absorb all the rich and beautiful detail in the production design, costuming and special effects. If you can really not find a way to appreciate what is great in the films and let pass what is not so good (no film of this magnitude could ever be perfect for everyone, all the way through) then I only feel sorry for you. :( ----- Well, though I'm still not sure why he should be blind, I'm quite happy with the MoS being possesed by the big S, it serves the purposes of appealing to the mass market US culture (you still lstening greenleaf) WITHOUT BEING DETRIMENTAL TO THE STORY. Ahem. Sorry about that. :)
Opps, danm speeling errars agen! by raw_bean	Oct 23rd, 2003 08:59:51 AM
"..play Them with the sound muted...try tO listen to the music..."
by Sabster	Oct 23rd, 2003 11:28:43 AM
Sorry if I seem to be a bit taken up with Lebowski, but I watched that movie for the first time last night. Hilarious. Man, what a brilliant LofR (or maybe BotR?) the Coen brothers could have made: Goodman as Gimli, Buscemi as Pippin, Clooney as Boromir, the guy who played Delmar in
Sauron's bluff by irritable	Oct 23rd, 2003 01:43:29 PM
Sabster, so far as Sauron knew, a hobbit in unusually valuable mithril mail, accompanied by a powerful elf had penetrated Mordor. He didn't guess the purpose as we know - but he can be taken to assume they were spies of some importance. He would have guessed Gandalf's involvement - judging by what the MoS said to Gandalf. I don't think its quite clear that Sauron knew for certain that Frodo had escaped the tower of Cirith Ungol (which happened on the 14th) by the time that MoS went to parley with the army of the West on the 25th. Shagrat took the bundle of clothes to Sauron and it must have taken at least a few days maybe considerably longer. But Shagrat himself did not know for certain (and had strong reasons to lie about) whether the prisoner, for whom he was responsible, could or would escape. Sauron could have sent a Nazgul to check this promptly when Shagrat got to Barad Dur. If he found the tower empty, he could speculate that the "spies" had retreated from Mordor, or were hiding in the Morgai where they must eventually be captured. But it may not really matter, because Sauron had nothing to lose and everything to gain by (falsely) offering to spare "the prisoner" in exchange for total surrender. The "negotiation" was just an experiment. MoS's style of negotiation suggests that Frodo would never really have been released, even if the West surrendered. As it happened, Gandalf called the bluff by demanding that the prisoner be produced.*So there are some reasons for inferring that Sauron believed that his negotiation either could not, or probably would not be exposed as a fraud - for example, by Frodo appearing with the army of the West, or Gandalf producing proof that Frodo was not captive. So the experiment was worth trying.Certainly in the book the MoS has eyes. He "looks" at the Captains of the West. They "look" in his eyes, seeing that he is to be their tyrant.**If MoS is the Black Lieutenant of Barad Dur, and proposed overlord of Gondor, it's hard to imagine that he would be blind. But as Daughter of Time has wisely observed, sometimes the screenwriters have foolishly sacrificed logic for a particularly tasty cinematic effect.
Chard-coal head scratching over greenleaf dissertation(s) noted by morGoth	Oct 23rd, 2003 02:06:05 PM
Shoot greeny, if you
Excellent reply irritable by morGoth	Oct 23rd, 2003 02:39:11 PM

Damn Greenleaf... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 23rd, 2003 02:42:45 PM
Couldn't you just have told us that you didn't like PJ & Co
thank you, Bauglir old boy ... by irritable	Oct 23rd, 2003 02:52:39 PM
.... and I also hope our counter-tirades haven't sent Greenleaf away sulking. His brand of melancholy idealism is worth reading.****Sabster, in piling on details, I probably failed to offer an answer to your real question - why would Sauron risk losing face? I thought the answer was simply - he didn't think there was un unacceptably large risk of embarassment. morG provides the other half of the answer - he didn't really care. It was fun playing the negotiation game from a postion of strength. He was going to slaughter them all anyway, so nobody would live (or dare) to tell the tale.
Okay Moaters, I concede ... by irritable	Oct 23rd, 2003 03:13:59 PM
... not ALL of that verbiage from Greenleaf is worthy of close attention.
Gothmog Voo Doo Child, slight return. by morGoth	Oct 23rd, 2003 04:10:18 PM
Here is a cool snippet from a recent interview with Lawrence Makoare and I appologize if ya'll already read it: Will we be seeing you a lot in The Return of the King? LM: Absolutely. I play three different parts in the Return of the King.I play the Witch King of Angmar. And I play Gothmog, who's a sergeant in the Orc-army. The Witch King is my boss. I play my own boss. And I play an Orc who is a soldier in the Orc-army. So I play my boss again. I've got all bases covered man, heheh ** WHoa! So at least it's fixed in PJ's mind that ol' Gothmog is an Orc! Hmmm...can't see Uruk's taking orders from some lowly Orc though. That Jackson ,what a HACK!
Dagnabbit... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 23rd, 2003 04:48:45 PM
..."don't give a tinker's damn ABOUT...", or perhaps '...or ABOUT your depth... etc.' And: 'devil's not
Lugubriously loquacious sect whiffed near Rushock Bog! by morGoth	Oct 23rd, 2003 07:30:31 PM
I knew it; Harry got MOS mixed up with that Gondorian Blues singer, Blind Ecthelion Wailer. Yeah Moaters, I
Adieu-doo ta you, too. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 23rd, 2003 09:22:22 PM
Jesus-tap-dancing-Christ, what the hell was Leafy talkin' about? I had to take a Pepcid. He spewed so much bullshit, I got heartburn. I mean, what IS it with this guy? He comes here talkin' some grandiose liberal hippy rhetoric, then, when he's called on it, he gives his ultimate reply of gobbledygook and backpeddling... Ass- tounding!*** morGoth, it's always a refreshing delight to read your responses. As RotK comes out, I'm pretty sure I'll post here less 'n less, primarily cuz I want to avoid having my buzz ruined by ignorant naysayers. At the risk of drawing some fire, this also got me to wondering, what'll become of us when this thang is done? I hope I'll still see ya'all in other talkbacks.
Fiddlesticks! by greenleaf	Oct 23rd, 2003 09:37:32 PM
Devil's Own - First statement: "I know firebrands like you thumb their noses at such narrow concepts as "rules", or consideration for anybody's feelings for that matter." Second statement: "Still, some people MIGHT have trouble getting the impact of whatever point you are trying to convey if you are making generalizations about a certain group." And how about a categorization, on your part? Firebrands like me? My interventions do not include such statements as "people like you" or "you are such and such". The name "America" without the "God Bless" is enough for SOME OF YOU, including yourself, to go haywire, and I don't assume, you're practically demonstrating it to me. "In America there is free-speech and people are not ostracized for their beliefs" would be a good generalization, and "American nationalism is like the conditioning of Pavlovian hounds" would be a bad one. Oh, sorry if I hurt your feelings there. Now would you please try and consider the validity of my argument, instead of the way it makes you feel? Or just ignore it. What do you deny exactly? Are you denying the fact that American culture, as a whole, from Wilderland to Western Shore, from Charlie Rose to Rush Limbaugh, from Brittney Spears to Steve Reich, is a gigantic pile of shit? Because I don't agree, and if you want me to list the things that I like and that are made in America, I can. Unfortunately, we were discussing the two blockbusters, so excuse me if I forgot to mention Frasier and the Simpsons and all that clever and funny shit that I like, and every American movie that I've seen and enjoyed in my life. They're mostly old, like, ten or twenty years old, even more than that. So who cares, right? Ditto for you, Benzedrine the Oldest. If I disgust you, refrain from reading. I am too verbose, too "uppity" for you? You want fries with that or what? I don't charge you anything for my "bullshit", it's all free! As for what I am trying to prove to you, feel free to think what you wish... as if I can do anything about it. I suppose I should dumb down a little? The words I use, they may not be your all-American words, you know, but they're the ones that come to mind easily. So excuuuuuse me if I say "moribund" (and why not "entrepreneur" while you're at it)! It's not my fault if petulent English intellectuals borrowed these very common words and decided they were going to be so damn erudite. You're predisposed. I eat brie and practically live in my own piss. Consider yourself lectured. Or shall I embark into a thorough explanation of anti-French sentiment through hierarchical linguistics? No, Moaters... This is just troll-bashing to you, so I forgive you for treating me like dirt for no good reason. *** morG, I can't stay here and the reasons are pretty obvious. All would be just perfect if I just shut up about anything remotely controversial, or if I was careful to pepper my more "incendiary" writings with apologetic rounds of asslicking, as is customary everywhere in the world (everyone knows that). (I don't need to lick your ass, as I consider you are friends; but most of you don't see me as a friend, OF COURSE, I'm not nice enough. For your information, this wasn't about YOU, it was about movies, and the diktat and fabrication of popular taste. If you feel threatened, then my place is definitely elsewhere, for I did not come here you attack YOU. Yes, you!) I'm not in the mood for self-censorship, and I won't pretend differences don't exist, for that would pretty much nullify the meaning of my presence here, and force me once again to disown all that I represent, for the sake of the illusional, consensual bliss. That kind of assimilation I know too well. So yeah, you know me, I like to have fun and go crazy and all that, but if you feel I don't respect you, and I feel you don't respect me, it's all pretty vain. And I wouldn't want to be the Elf from Smirkwood if it was to you more than just a playful sobriquet... there I go again, how do you say it? Nickname. Well, not exactly a nickname, but you know... something like that. Plus, my absence will save our irritable the discomfort of walking the fine wire of Sympathy for the greenleaf, and lest he falls down the Pit of Shame and be shunned, I'll bid you a fond farewell, providing you stay the flames in my direction. I bear no grudge, and am sorry for being such an ill-behaved foreigner in a not-so-strange land. You are so welcoming, I practically feel at home here... he he he
I forgot to mention by greenleaf	Oct 23rd, 2003 09:54:41 PM
I would be interested to know why you all got banned. And I do stick around for responses. ~Crazy "Liberal"
Holy Crap guys, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 24th, 2003 06:00:41 AM
Get thee to TORN immediately and check out the new ROTK pics!!! Denethor's funeral pyre, Pippin 'stealing' the Palantir, Aragorn with the Palantir, Frodo and Sam on Mt Doom with the full shot fully revealed and more. This shit is gonna rock!!! Cheers.
Greenleaf, by raw_bean	Oct 24th, 2003 06:02:54 AM
stop feeling sorry for yourself! The responses you've had here don't constitute a good flaming, compared to some of the shit I've had to deal with (and I've only been posting for a short time) this is barely a gentle warming! I for one tried to answer your (rather verbose) posts with tolerance for for your differing views, and friendliness. I would be interested to hear your response to my last post, once you've stopped sulking over the ruder responses you received from some others. ----------- morG, damn, you musta missed a whole discussion on this very subject on a previous AICNDownunder TB. I found the very quote you did, and we all had a good natter over Gothmog in the books, who is never described. First there was confusion with Gothmog senior, Balrog of Morgoth. Then there were proponents for Nazgul Gothmog (even Gothmog as the Witch King's name, but that one fell apart), Gothmog as Black Numenorean (general consensus was that this was the most likely/favourite option, myself included), and finally, Gothmog as fighting Uruk (remember that Uruk just means 'orc', the fact that Gothmog is called an 'orc' doesn't mean he won't be mighty big, Lawrence Makoare is a huge guy). Although I liked Gothmog as Black Numenorean, I was perfectly happy to accept orcish Gothmog. I pointed out the back-catalogue of large, powerful, cunning uruks who would dominate hordes of their lesser brethren as Gothmog would need to, going back through LOTR, the Hobbit and the Sil, ie, the Great Goblin, Bolg, Azog, the big bugger who spears Frodo in Moria.
Thank you, irritable and morGoth by Sabster	Oct 24th, 2003 07:13:05 AM
... for your detailed answers. So it actually is unclear whether Sauron knew about Frodo
Actually, I'm curious too, what was the banning for? by raw_bean	Oct 24th, 2003 07:32:50 AM
Ya'll seem so nice, I can't imagine you guys comminting a banning offence. Kinda regret not being around, would of been fun when you returned ("morG, morG, they said you was hung!").
According to the "rules" on the right hand side here... by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 24th, 2003 07:38:32 AM
It's kind of difficult to explain why our posts were deleted from all the tb's extending back to 1999 (mine started in early 2000, but are now gone, I never bothered saving the posts) but it (probably) happened to due to extended flame wars, where trolls attacked us at length, we responded and subsequently all our posts were deleted and some of us (not me) were banned for a while. Anyway as I understand it, our posts are gone forever... Cheers.
greenie, re getting banned by Miami Mofo	Oct 24th, 2003 09:28:11 AM
Once upon a time there was a tailend talkback that went on and on and on. Suddenly, an AICN Downunder LOTR item appeared, and the tb moved over there, right in the middle of some off-topic discussion. [I happened to be telling morGy that one fourth of my DVD collection (10 of 40) was B&W films, the titles of which I then listed.] Father Geek happened to be keeping a close watch on the AICN Downunder tb's (he wanted to make sure 'noone' was scorching Lauturo), saw what he assumed was nothing but off-topic discussions, and banned our collective asses. A quick explainatory e-mail from elanor to Harry got us unbanned, but not before Walrus changed his name to mortsleam (a name I did not fully understand until morGy told me to read it backwards).
On the contrary Greenleaf... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 24th, 2003 09:31:38 AM
... I don't consider you to be a troll at all dear chap. You're just a typical, very intelligent, apparently at least reasonably well eduacated, idealistic, twenty-something who thinks he has some wisdom to impart to the less educated culturally bereft "American" masses. You have not proffered any original insights here, you only think you have, and you've done so in a singularly long-winded and self-important manner. Want to debate politics and culural morays? Fine. But I ask you: is this really an appropriate forum to do so? We (your elders) have heard all of this before and quite likely gave forth with some similarly impassioned oratory when we were at your stage in life. "See how smart I am?" pontificating (though guilty of it myself from time to time) has always chapped my ass, and I responded to your 'essay' accordingly; but it wasn't 'troll bashing'.
greenleaf, If The Lord of The Rings were truly done in the by mortsleam	Oct 24th, 2003 09:59:13 AM
1.) All of the actors would be American twentysomethings, possibly with an African American comic relief. Except for the
Thank'ee kindly Conan... by morGoth	Oct 24th, 2003 10:19:56 AM
...for that heads up! Wow! Guess that answers the question of whether Pippin and Aragorn look into the palantir...WHOO HOO! Awesome, and I bet PJ has something really special in store for the Aragorn vs Sauron palantir duke-out. Aw...look at the way Pippin is trying to comfort Denethor. Snif...AND THUNK! ** Yes, when I think of all the absolute filth that has been spewed on some of us by trollers, some of whom NEVER get banned, it grates to know that we were entirely banned and those louts get to go on posting thier rot. If, like Alice, we'd only had those post deleted, it wouldn't been so bad....BUUUT NOOOOOOO! Father Asshole had to ban us! The bastard. Heh, I mailed harry and asked him two things: 1.) What took you so long? and 2.) What'd I do? He said that Father Geek was really, really protective of his pet "Downunder TB" and, basically, we caught him on a bad day. Lesson learned folks, prepare your posting jools using any WOrd type program then cut n' paste 'em into the Talk Back window. So, there ya go greenleaf, nothing dramatic at all.
r_b, Conan, Miami, Greenleaf, et al. Re: Bannings by mortsleam	Oct 24th, 2003 10:23:50 AM
Yes, I was once known as the Walrus, or as Pippin(Steve Buscemi) would say, "I am the Walrus, dude?" Followed by Gandalf's (John Goodman) "Shut the fuck up, Pippin, you're out of your element!" But Walrus was actually banned after an extended flame war with an unfortunate Lucas-o-phile who shall remain nameless (cough*fettastic*cough.) Then I switched over to mortsleam, which was actually the FRIST user ID I created waaay back in '99. I only used it sporadically (imagine, I was all shy and reserved back then!) Then I was at work the day George Harrison died and couldn't remember my password, so I had to create another ID and voila, Walrus was born. Of course, after I switched back to mortsleam, I was quickly banned AGAIN along with all the others in the dreaded Downunder TB. elanor's kind words (and my...ahem...possession...of some early Matrix Reloaded footage) got us back, but all of our posts were losts. Because it is the policy of this site to not only erase the offending talkbacks, but also "disappear" all history of said offensive talkbacker. Kinda scary, in an Orwellian way, but I understand it. Lord knows I'm glad fett's stink has been permanently removed, and is a small price to pay for the loss of some gratuitous Goo-Goo g'Joob's. I just wished I'd saved some of that old stuff. Now let's all raise a glass of miruvor to our departed posts, and remember to give a li'l for the homies that didn't make it.
Amen to that mortsleam. by raw_bean	Oct 24th, 2003 10:42:10 AM
And now that Miami-mofo has revealed the devious and devilishly clever secret of your nick name to me, can I just say, "cooool!". :)
Well that was a lucky coincidence, by raw_bean	Oct 24th, 2003 10:49:59 AM
I was actually trying to amen your previous post mortsleam, on how bad LOTR could have been if it was REALLY 'Hollywoodised'. But I'll raise a drink to lost posts. Hear hear!
Benzedrine the Oldest ? Hmm... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 24th, 2003 11:15:58 AM
... I guess that post really put a burr under your saddle eh Greenleaf? I take it all back, er, no I don't. I've always enjoyed your discourse on this board, and your admirable command of English as a second language especially. But your foray into this TETB came across as so "holier than thou" that it stuck in my craw. Diplomacy, contrary to some idealists' conviction, is not a dirty word. It isn't always "asslicking" as you so tastefully referred to it. FYI, it's also known as "effective communication". It doesn't matter how profound, (which I've already twice opined that your posts here aren't) what wish to impart is, if you piss off the listener in the process. They aren't going to hear anything you have to say regardless of the intellectual content delivered. *** What the heck is up with: "Pippin gets send on a mission for Gandalf: to light the beacon of Minas Tirith as a token of the war that is coming." over at TORN?! Kind of a strange permutation of a detail from the book eh what?
Can't...resist... by Seepgood	Oct 24th, 2003 03:44:19 PM
"What the fuck are you talking about? The tark is not the issue here, Shagrat. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand. Across this line, you do not...also, Shagrat, that is not the preferred term. Dunadan, please." "I'm not talking about the guy who built the fucking Argonath, man! He spilt spider-gunk on my fucking doorstep!" **** "Begone if you be not deathless, for be you living or dark undead, if you touch him you're entering a world of pain. A world of pain. You touch him, you're entering a world of pain. A world...of pain."
Addendum by Seepgood	Oct 24th, 2003 04:04:49 PM
Wormtongue: "How did your meeting go?" Gandalf: "Great. The old man said to take any horse in the place."
Oh My God by Pallando Blue	Oct 24th, 2003 05:07:23 PM
Thanks for the pick-em-up, everybody! My sides are now HURTING. Man, I have been in a foul, foul state the last coupla days (Miami knows why, let's just say it involves "#3 ranking" and "sucking goats"), and only got around to looking here this afternoon. But HOLY CRAP y'all's Lebowski angle has had me laughing my fool head off! And possibly my ass, as well!BRILLIANT. Must... get... movie... been YEARS... All I can come up with to contribute, is Frodo getting bit by Shelob, going into a swoon, then an elaborate musical set-piece kicking off, "Just checked in, to see what condition my condition was in..." I suppose with giant Rings and dancing Gollums, including a choreographed strut down the Winding Stair..? * Oh, and Galadriel's final voiceover narration: "...The Sam abides," as he settles into his chair, fade to black >sniffle< :) * Eh, I better actually see that ol Coen flick again before I unfunny the joint any further. *** mortsleam, I read some of that Muppet of Oz TB, and was in tears reading that one person's proposal of LOTR with the Looney Tunes characters. Foghorn Leghorn as Gandalf: "Oh, the road goes ever, ever on, DOO-DAH, DOO-DAH..." I almost peed. Close one.
Of gastric pain and other subjects by greenleaf	Oct 24th, 2003 05:26:02 PM
First of all, my being long-winded is only normal. It is a long time since I have been here, and that is in part why I came back. I have not been off the Net, at least not for a long time, and hanging around with the same people tends to wear down one
Just been reading a few posts... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 24th, 2003 05:54:46 PM
...over at the new "Revolutions" TB, and all I have to say is: THANK ERU FOR ALL OF YOU! And I do mean every last single one of you on the LOTR TB's. The level of stupidity on display over there, (the new Matrix TB), is utterly beyond belief, not to mention the reviews themselves; PEEUUUWWWW...
No, no, no, mortsleam: the bad guy... by Sabster	Oct 24th, 2003 06:31:45 PM
...would be played by a Scandinavian actor who
Pippin trying to comfort Denethor, morGoth? by Sabster	Oct 24th, 2003 06:43:12 PM
Then who
Getting the big picture by Sabster	Oct 24th, 2003 07:03:45 PM
...of Sam holding Frodo I begin to wonder at what point of the story they actually are. When I saw the calender picture for the first time many months ago I thought it was the Choices of Master Samwise. Later I saw the caption
Tolkien Ranked 3rd on Top-Earning Dead Celebrities by greenleaf	Oct 24th, 2003 07:44:49 PM
Yay! In other TORN news, um... Nice photos. Watch me as I get my hopes up for December. Hah! Not a chance, but still, this is the best part of the story yet, so I may have to swallow my own bile! Yuck! More gastric troubles. *** While searching for news about TINTIN, I couldn't help noticing that our very own Pallando Blue seems to be a fan, or at least was a year ago! Any favorite among the lot? The positive aspect to this is that Spielberg can't invent a new story, he has to adapt from the comics, or so I think, because of what Herg
Book VI, chapter 7, Homeward bound by Sabster	Oct 24th, 2003 07:57:52 PM
[scene: At the Prancing Pony] Sam:
Breakin' through that language barrier! by Devil'sOwn	Oct 24th, 2003 10:24:39 PM
He doesn't feel pity! He doesn't feel remorse! And he absolutely will not stop until you are dead!! Leafy, what I said was I thought we discussed movies here. And the actual observations you did make about a movie were groundless. Sorry. What can we say? The same thing you say to any persistent talkbacker (who likes old movies, no less), "Congratulations, dildo! You attain victory in your mind through use of incomprehensible grandiloquence!!" Oh, I get it! You meant no offense!! It's just that gene in me that balks at some haughty pole-smoker (and you don't even have that Old-World cred!!) who sits in judgment of a culture, and tries desperately to convince us that they know everything in the fucking world, right? Hey, look, I'll do something you apparently can't, and own up to what I say- that was my complexes talking, okay? Not nationalist pride. I really do appreciate what you've attempted to do for us here, but somehow, I'll find my way in the world. I'd think someone with your agenda would have better things to do.*** Brilliant post, mortsleam! Absolutely a hoot!! And remember, kids: Canadian French people are just as bad as the real thing.
The hands of the king are the hands of a healer!!! by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 25th, 2003 12:31:53 AM
How good are these new photo's, nothing controversial to this purists mind. Aragorn healing Faramir, Pippin in full Gondorian dress, The White Tree, Dunharrow, Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Orodruin, the reforging of Narsil, (without Arwen), the throne of Gondor, with Denethor sitting on a small chair beside. ROTK is gonna rock. I've said it before but nothing I've seen so far is changing that. even Greenleaf might be impressed... Cheers.
I'm still baffled greenleaf, by raw_bean	Oct 25th, 2003 10:36:04 AM
by your describing Viggo Mortensen's Aragorn as 'young'. Just because Aragorn is 87, doesn't mean he should have white hair and liver spots. Maybe it's just that I'm only 20, but Viggo Mortensen seems old enough to me. As for the rest, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Not that I even totally disagree with some of the faults you find in the films, just that I tend towards the 'glass is half full' perspective, only the LOTR films to me seem very, very nearly full, as the good points, to my mind, far out number and outweigh the bad. Oh, and Saruman always was Sauron's puppet, in the book he just kidded himself he was in control. They kinda suggested this aspect of him in TTT, where he communicates with Sauron in the palantir, talks about himself as Sauron's ally and equal, not just his puppet. I don't mind them having simplified this plot thread, the slightly fuzzy way this aspect of the story went in the books always bothered me. Saruman's motives and situation seemed to be different each time they were addressed in the books, and left it a little open to interpretation. --- I would love to join in with the Lord of the Big Lebowski joking, it's been far too long since I saw it (must get it on DVD, hilarious film), except possibly to quote Saruman speaking to Sauron in the palantir: "They stole your fucking Ring, dude. Stole - your fucking - Ring." Sauron: "And that Ring really tied the whole forces of darkness together, ya know?".
"Canadian French people are just as bad as the real thing." by raw_bean	Oct 25th, 2003 10:39:13 AM
I felt guilty afterwards, and I rightfully condemn this insulting and un-PC comment, but I couldn't help but laugh uproariously at it, Devil's Own.
Travel day by Miami Mofo	Oct 25th, 2003 11:31:48 AM
Since there was no World Series game last night due to the travel day, I decided to let this sleep deprived body relax at home and watch the LotR:T2T DVD, quite possibly for the last time before the SEV gets released. I have come to the conclusion that of all of Gimli's humour, the one bit that I can absolutely do without, and which I hope will be DELETED from the SEV, is "You could have picked a better spot." That's the ONE that just rubs me the wrong way. Please remove it, P.J., because it doesn't belong.
mechanic accents by djinnj	Oct 25th, 2003 01:32:51 PM
Reading an interesting book which discusses both the 'low brow' and the 'popular' and am constantly finding analogs to present day consumerism (the book deals with the 19th Cent. USA). One of the things it does mention though, is that the dime novels that were so looked down upon by the middle class in the US had their counterparts in Britain and France, as well (in fact, preceding them), and that the cheap, commodified, trashy literature was the first 'international' lit, to be translated (and frankly pirated) freely back and forth. Another interesting aspect of the book was how it discusses that the class those works were written for was not the class which generated them. They were the result of economic factors pushing hack writers who were essentially at the beck and call of publishing houses. Books were written at high speed, and often with more than one writer involved, such that 'authority' was not nearly as clear as what we think it is. Anyway, Greenleaf's soapboxstanding came to mind as I was reading it [Mechanic Accents: Dime novels and working-class culture in America, by Michael Denning], and it struck me as rather funny. The cultural hegemony that the US is supposed to be spreading (and it is there), is both more and less powerful than already described. Its danger isn't in the surface flourishes, but in the way it causes all criticism to stem from the same base assumptions (been reading Frederic Jameson lately, too!) which leads to the self-fulfilment of that criticism. Ah well. //// Hey, y'know, I've realized that I'm glad I haven't seen the trailer? And I'm really glad I wasn't one of the privileged few to see 20 min. of RotK early, because all this speculation is getting to be too much. I want it all as fresh as possible, and every time I look at a droolingly gorgeous photo, I'm both hop-in-my-seat ecstatic and yet know that there will be that much less 'Hallelujah!!!' when the film gets it right. sigh The scenes with Sam and Frodo in their suspenders and grungy white shirts suggests to me that there will be no naked hobbitieness. I guess, after the orcs strip F, they could just take the valuables and leave the regular clothes. Then, F could just dress himself in a spare moment.... I just, well, hope not. Not that I want to see naked hobbitses, but well, it really is terribly sad that Frodo is naked in the dark both literally and figuratively. sniffle
Mainly for Miami Mofo: The Return of the Little Mermaid by Sabster	Oct 25th, 2003 02:52:16 PM
Just wanted to let you know that she
MORE ELF LIES!!! by greenleaf	Oct 25th, 2003 03:59:40 PM
Hello Ingold! Yes, I'm back, and glad to see you too. I've been very offensive and mean during your absence. Apparently. Most explanations I receive come in the form of gross exaggerations, so I am still in the dark as to what exactly I should be apologizing for. Is it The Lord of the Rings, is it Hollywood, is it the US of A? Very, very unclear. * My original intent, before the campaign of discredit undertaken by those less open to discussion, was to try and explain to a difficult crowd the effects of relative cultural distance on my perceptions of The Lord of The Rings movies, especially The Two Towers, movies which most of you admire almost without reserve. It was open, elliptical, and blanks were left for people to fill, but through ill-will it became "you get the idea, loser" rather than "I'll let you draw your own personal conclusions, if any". Sounds pretentious to you, I know, but it's my way. All was largely misinterpreted, or intentionally taken as bigotry. "morG, why don't you make yourself all comfortable and treat yourself to an all-Ingmar Bergman DVD treat with morGette Prime this evening? That should teach you something about the meaning of life, death, and the afterlife! morG, you really should watch this Japanese movie to learn more about the noble spirit of suicide. It's great to discuss with the kids!" I know pertinently that it means nothing to him, is not in his taste; that it's alien, irrelevant and uninvolving to him (or me, I have tastes too). Do you think that if I had it my way I would fill cinemas with art films (which can be very slim at times, agreed, for there are many crooks in the trade), ban TV altogether, and render illegal all litterature that does not meet "my" standard? I do not look down upon anything by default, nor do I wish in my wildest dreams to IMPOSE a standard on anyone (by levelling "upwards" or "downwards"!!). Popular culture has always existed (I'm aware of that, djinnj, and the rest of your post is very interesting) and has always been trashed by the elite; the folklore of old days is largely extinct in most countries, same thing for the languages of those people. I do not advocate a return to the vertical hierarchies of old, in Europe or in France (try "Candide" by Voltaire, it's hilarious, and pro-American, even though America didn't exist back then). I am merely speaking of present-day EXCESSES. Of which you are well-aware of: see the djinnj analogy. But that was not in my original post. Back to the point. My alluding to the fact that the powerful, autonomous, extremely productive US is big on exportation and slim on importation, and that dialogue with the rest of the world tends to be one-way only as a result, may be difficult to accept to some (others will find this perfectly acceptable) but it is nevertheless a reality and not without consequences, as Moaters will tell you, for it is obvious. American culture is certainly strong and alive, self-defined, and it has no real need for external input; but with little or no means to compare and evaluate what is distinctive about one's own culture -- and yes, this is a general statement and does not necessarily applies to you in particular, and you have yet to prove me wrong on that one --, quite apart from your own image in the mirror, true or deformed, otherness becomes nearly impossible to fathom. As much as I try to convey the reasons why such and such a work of art might not appeal to me as much as it does to you, you don't "see where I'm coming from". Indeed, you don't. I'm not about to ask you to say "Sorry, dude." As for my opinions about the current state of affairs in Hollywood, and the big networks, I think I have a strong case, and it's a case of American bigwigs trashing mass culture for the sake of profit. Productivity is on the rise, and quality on the decline. By and large. And I feel very, very sorry, believe me. * raw_bean: Damn language barrier. I never said anything about Viggo's physical appearance. He's young of character. And fuzziness around Saruman's motives, open interpretation, it's all good to me. Doesn't bother me at all. Au contraire... ~TVT
still hosed? by Sabster	Oct 25th, 2003 04:26:57 PM

Apparently not by Sabster	Oct 25th, 2003 04:29:05 PM
so I
Mainly for Miami Mofo: The Return of the Little Mermaid by Sabster	Oct 25th, 2003 04:32:16 PM
Just wanted to let you know that she
Old-World Cred by greenleaf	Oct 25th, 2003 04:40:50 PM
You're joking, right? Ah yes. Go ahead and blame me for your demons. If I am indeed "rubbing it in your face", as you seem to suggest, then I guess you should not be blamed for all the narrow-mindedness coming my way, past and present. I failed to see that in you, you see (appy polly logies indeedy), and the fact that The New York Post failed mention that culture was a hot sensitive debate right now in the US did not help.
Hosed, but now unhosed by greenleaf	Oct 25th, 2003 04:45:21 PM
Of course I meant "failed TO mention"... Sorry, sorry! Won't happen again! Oooh, d'you see what time it is? Don't wanna be late for my UN meeting now! Ciaaaooooo!
I kid because I love. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 25th, 2003 06:30:23 PM
Let's see if we can put this baby to bed, Leafy. I am NOT blaming you for my demons, that's (and I believe this works in any language) moronic. If I was anywhere near as smooth as I wished I was, I wouldn't have responded to anything you said in the first place, truly. I meant I can't speak for everybody else, but I personally, as an individual who deep down wants to be accepted and wants to contribute positively as much as possible to the world, was taken aback, put off by the tone of vulgar presumptuousness in your statements, which I suppose one should get used to if they're going to hang around here. Now, having given more explanation than the subject warrants, let me just say I do not in any way begrudge you your right to say what you want. There may be a bad guy out there, somewhere, but in this case, I'm not him. I really do try not to be narrow-minded. And it's my hope that anything I said won't enforce your viewpoint. I guess, in my own way, I wanted to try and point out that, for someone with your obvious gifts, trying to be so superior just seemed beneath you. You could have still gotten your point across without alienating a lot of people by saying an entire nation is ignorant, crude, and/or shallow. Yeah, the world's full of benighted, mean-spirited, greedy human beings. But, some of us try to do better, and can usually succeed with a little encouragement. I don't guess this one little fiend is going to do that, though. Peace out, dog!*** Bean, I really do apologize. The last thing I want to do is offend you. It's a fine line we walk, sometimes. You wanna lighten the mood in such a troubling bit of conversation. And it's so seductively easy to be mean. And, not to say that I like sinking to new depths to get a laugh, but I am delighted that you at least managed to see the humor in which it was intended. Sendin' good vibes your way, D.O.
Rockabye baby by greenleaf	Oct 25th, 2003 08:28:32 PM
Er, well, yes, one does need to be careful when posting here. I try not to get into it too much, but it drags you in, why, with all you people getting emotional on me like that. Heeeeeee... And by the time you get to realize it
Hobbit lass pipes up by elanor	Oct 25th, 2003 08:38:28 PM
Oh Greeny, dear, it
Whaaaaa...? by greenleaf	Oct 25th, 2003 08:52:02 PM
zzzdat? Oh, hobbit lasss... we sleeps now. yes very good pointzzz... i stand defeatd.. zzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzz by elanor	Oct 26th, 2003 12:04:17 AM
Well, no, not defeated! Sleep is fine, yes but I wouldn't want you to throw in the towel. Hey, I realize my post showed up AS IF in response to yours but it wasn't at all. I just now read yours. Mine was in response to several that came well before it. I type slowly and sometimes take a break while writing one to do something else. That was the case here so when I posted mine I had not refreshed the tb to check for the newest messages. That post contains a very different, dare I say it, concilliatory tone, which surprised me, yes, but would have changed nearly everything I put in mine had I seen it in time. Let's just say my post belongs to an older era. Anyway, I admire good manners and anyone who can backtrack once they achieve new awareness so huzzah for you, greenleaf old chap. Now here's a question you can answer in the morning - what do you think of the Canadian film industry? Any favorite films or directors to watch?
bad-tempered talkbackers... by orson	Oct 26th, 2003 12:13:57 PM
Disappointed by mean-spirited sniping at greenleaf's whimsical, good-humored and harmless posts. Clearly his ability to write without bile is deeply threatening to some people. I don't agree with his view of FOTR but his posts are articulate and entertaining. ***** Great picture over at TORN of Sam apparently stabbing Gorbag in the back. Strangely, the picture doesn't have correct scale between hobbit/orc which makes Gorbag look at lot smaller than he should be. Notice that Gorbag is wearing what appears to be scavanged Gondorian armour. What do you think of that little touch, mr. greenleaf?
WARNING -- if you go there, stay on-topic! by Miami Mofo	Oct 26th, 2003 02:41:00 PM
New LotR:RotK news in Lauturo's latest AICN Downunder (tb #16376). Aragorn fights the trolls!!! [Don't worry, I'm not talking about anyone here. :~)] ***Thanks for the update, Sabster.
Sanctimonious talkbackers... by Devil'sOwn	Oct 26th, 2003 08:38:20 PM
DAMN Orson, if you are disappointed, y'know, sorry I didn't appreciate greenleaf's posts for the delightful bits of whimsy they were (funny, they really didn't remind me of morGoth's posts). We'll try harder. Wasn't threatened, just annoyed. Save your half-assed analysis (Bad tempered? Maybe... Mean-spirited? Nah!) What the hell? Articulate and entertaining? Jesus. Am I being Punk'd? Thanks for that, but I get it now.
You really are hopeless by greenleaf	Oct 27th, 2003 02:22:56 AM
Elanor, I have been trying to throw in the towel for quite some time now, and hoping that a new TB pops up (no worries, Mofo)... I am being DUH-ed out of existence, or proven wrong in the absolute mode, which, both statistically and philosophically, is a rather improbable and unsatisfying outcome. So yeah, yer right! I stand "corrected". whip-tash! You see, due to, um, contingencies of the present situation, namely a battle of wits 10 against 1, it is overly time-consuming! sweat And while titillating, your reply was unfortunate, and redundant. It was read in the appropriate context, have no fear, but anyway, miraculously, it's all in actuality again!.... Concilliation, why, yes, it
Devil'sOwn, don't worry about it. by raw_bean	Oct 27th, 2003 05:27:53 AM
I really did find your comment hilarious, it was just a bit of a guilty pleasure, I was jokingly condemning you for it. I repeated the joke to my family, by the way, and they all laughed their heads off. :) Accepting the good vibes, reflecting them back
'battle of wits, 10 against 1' Greenleaf? by raw_bean	Oct 27th, 2003 05:47:58 AM
I really hope you don't include me in that 10, my intention never has been and never will be to 'battle' with anyone here. Personally, I was trying to do my best to 'discuss' with one who seemed to be, if not my intellectual superior, at least one superior in age. I repeat my earlier suggestion that you are getting a bit overly defensive. Some TBers are angry with you, no doubt, but I think many more are trying to discuss things in an adult manner, and speaking to you respectfully. As Skyway Moaters pointed out, try reading a Matrix TB (and I add Star Wars) if you want to see REAL spite, anger, rudeness, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance. --- As for Aragorn fighting a Troll (see latest AICNDownunder, I wonder when in the film that is? In front of the Morannon?
I hope all you guys across the pond don't mind too much... by raw_bean	Oct 27th, 2003 05:56:18 AM
waking up in the morning to a bunch of my inane babble. I feel a bit greedy hogging the TB while you're all sleeping, not to mention lonely :( ---- Any of you guys going to a trilogy tuesday event? There's not been any announcments of them here in the UK, most of what I know came from my own digging, but I fairly confident (hopefull?) that I've found a cinema not too far away that's going to do it, now I just need them to put tickets on sale.
Thank you very much, bean. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 27th, 2003 07:47:13 AM
That means a great deal to me. I don't know what posseses me sometimes. When I had told my She-Devil (who usually frowns upon such things) what I had said, she had to suppress her own laughter. Anyway, it's a pleasure to hear from you, as always. I hope your day is a great one. I'm going to contemplate my troubling new role as "bully". Later on, my friend.
"I don't know what posseses me sometimes"... by raw_bean	Oct 27th, 2003 09:02:50 AM
Well, Devil'sOwn, perhaps your nickname provides a clue to that? ;) As for my day, well, it was going reasonably well, but posts like yours can only brighten things up further. Thanks fella, have a good day yourself! :) Lets keep the good vibes flowing today, shall we? Good morning, all my trans-Atlantic friends! As self proclaimed leader of this Talkback (by dint of the fact that I was here first this morning), I decree that everyone who posts today shall be positive and friendly to their fellow TBer, or suffer my wrath! :D ---- Just to return to sanity slightly, I was wondering if any of you could recommend/warn me off the Encyclopaedia of Middle-Earth (I think it's by Robert Foster?) which I flicked through in my favourite bookshop during my lunchbreak. Whilst there I also bought an anthology of David Gemmell's Drenai Tales. Any of you guys ever come across this authors work or hasn't it made it across the pond yet? I heartily recommend his work, by the way.
Ack! Late for the party again! by morGoth	Oct 27th, 2003 01:27:47 PM
Hullo r_b, no, I don
Ouch, Greeny! You cut me to the quick! by elanor	Oct 27th, 2003 08:30:24 PM
Redundant? I? Yeouch.***Ok this is my last post on this tb. I'll head over to the other one in a minute even though I git scared of that man over there. But I just had to post once more here in the hopes that Greeny would see. You are beyond me, sir elf. This little hobbit, wise or no, does indeed hope that you will stick around, if only to amaze and confuse me. I stand corrected on my lazy use of "we" and if any of my words twisted the true meanings or intentions of yours then I'm sorry. "Suburb Barbie"? That's good.
Hehheh!! by Devil'sOwn	Oct 27th, 2003 09:04:10 PM
Shoot, bean! I should have known I couldn't get that one past you!! Glad you're having a groovy day. Hearing from you definately improved mine. Actually, I've had my eye on that book, but others on my wishlist have taken priority, namely several Gemmell books!*** MMMOOOORRR-GOTH!! That was fun! As I stated previously, it's a poor apology, but I just didn't know how to take the flippant and baffling statements of the Verdant Trickster, and lept in and engaged, where I would ordinarily sit back and assess. My bad.
Crazy coincidence, Devil's Own! by raw_bean	Oct 27th, 2003 09:46:26 PM
Which Gemmell books, by the way? --- I'm pleased to see that so far everyone has obeyed my decree of positivity and friendliness to other TBers (including you morG, that was interesting stuff to read) but now I msut resign from my post and go to bed. I won't be coming back to this TB, moving to the latest AICN Downunder one, if anyone's at all interested or even bothered. Been great chatting to you all, gute nacht!
Life's strange that way, raw_bean. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 27th, 2003 10:07:36 PM
The books are: Bloodstone, The Jerusalem Man, Last Guardian, and Wolf in Shadow. I'm also on the hunt for some Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, R.A. Salvatore, and Mercedes Lackey (for my She-Devil). 'Night, bean.
Where did everyone go, go ,go o,o,o,... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 28th, 2003 12:10:14 PM
... quite an echo in here, here here, ere, ere, ere... Not a single post dated Oct. 28?! Must suck at work for a bunch-o-folks today...
DOH! Wrong TB!!! by Skyway Moaters	Oct 28th, 2003 12:12:57 PM

Waaaay off-topic, so hiding it safely over here (greenleaf, you by Pallando Blue	Oct 29th, 2003 03:35:33 PM
Where prying Father Geekses eyes cants finds us, yesss! * Heck yeah, greenleaf, BIG Tintin fan here! Since a little tot, and every coupla years, when there's nothing on the shelf particularly drawing my eye, I happily run through em all again. A pleasure to this day. Shamedly there are still two I've never collected, having never (I believe) been published in the US--the infamous Congo book and the Russian one (In the Land of the Reds or something?) Also, I believe I've read somewhere that his estate published, or made available in some form, the unfinished Tintin book, that was to be set in a museum. A kind of art heist caper, I think (and in which the Captain is cured of his chemical intolerance of alcohol!). One of these days I have to get off my can't-remember-it-ten-minutes- after-I-resolve-to-do-it ass and import em from amazon.co.uk. ...As for Spielberg going for em again, I dunno. I think he's already done em, if you get me, when he did (and doing one more) the Indiana Jones movies. They were Lucas' Saturday matinee serials and pulp action comics, but they were Spielberg's Tintin adventures. At least that's my take on it. He's certainly lifted entire panels and sequences, and despite outward appearances there's quite a bit of Tintin in Indiana Jones. When I saw "Last Crusade" and that last location shot (the carved palace, made use of by Herge in "Red Sea Sharks" I believe), I remember thinking, welp, he doesn't need to do Tintin anymore, he's done em. I think if he tried to do them now it'd be a big mistake, because in a very real sense he's already gotten them out of his system--and to lesser and lesser effect each going. So, hopefully, if he really is going forward with any Tintin project, he'll just produce/exec produce, make sure it's in good, appreciative hands, and gently assist in the birthing process, no more. As for casting? Christ, I haven't got a clue. I can't even watch the cartoons that were made, cause I find the voices so jarring. * I was PC-less, and then couldn't break through to AICN, so missed a bunch and just now somewhat caught up. I hope I didn't come across as too chest-thumping America Love It Or Leave It, not my intent at all (any more than yours was America Hate It Or Leave Me--but you gotta work on your delivery, spud! :). I finally noticed what you said about the erosion of, I'm gathering, the French-Canadian culture. Well, shit, that sucks. Seriously. That DEEPLY saddens me to hear, and not in a third-hand, patronizing, neighborly sympathizing way. We share a heritage, you and I! Great (+ great? + another great? It's a little murky, though Grandma's started a genealogy hobby...) grand-pappy, to hear't told, came South of the Border 'round 'bout fin-de-siecle or so, settled himself down in upstate New York. Funny accent and everything. Me, I've still got an "-eau" at the end of my 4-syllable family name, and what further evidence need there be of my roots. So, I've always had an abiding affection for French Canada, despite having never been closer than a Thousand Islands boat tour, decades ago. To hear it's in such a state of cultural disintegration as you describe, well, to put it as lightly as I possibly can, that has really bummed me out. Hope to still see you around here.

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