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Mr Beaks Has Seen 20 Minutes Of RETURN OF THE KING!!

I cannot wait by Easily Pleased	Oct 15th, 2003 07:11:24 AM
This sounds so cool. Oh and first, maybe
Primer! by CuervoJones	Oct 15th, 2003 07:12:53 AM
yes, i need this movie NOW. Aragorn for president.
And I seem to be Numero Uno. by Easily Pleased	Oct 15th, 2003 07:15:14 AM
But apart from that, how cool is this movie going to be!? What are we going to do when ROTK special Edition comes out (5 hours would be nice PJ!). This movie, coz it is one mother-of-a-movie brokem into 3 parts, is the best film experience I have ever had. LOTR was my favourite book and thanks to PJ and his immaculate cast and crew, it is my favourite film too. All hail PJ. All he has to do now is cast Bruce Campbell as the ironic male lead in King Kong and I can die a happy man. Regards
Relax about the Damn Oscar! by MPJedi2	Oct 15th, 2003 07:33:22 AM
All you people and your "It better win" bullshit need to breathe deeply. In a year with AMERICAN SPLENDOR, LOST IN TRANSLATION, MYSTIC RIVER and, yes, Breaks, SEABISCUT, I hardly think the race is cut and dried. Plus, who cares? If it's good, it's good, and with the bazillions of dollars it's gonna generate _in merchandise alone,_ I don't think a little man on the shelf is really the first thing on anyone's mind over at New Line.
I like the anticipation by kafka07	Oct 15th, 2003 07:36:22 AM
The anticipation is part of the fun of these movies so I am being patient. These movies were and continue to be a very cool movie experience, one of the coolest ever for me. The soundtrack comes out each November and gets you even more psyched; then there's the dvd extended editions to look forward to, which will be released in theaters at some point I am sure. It just keeps on giving. :-) I just hope they don't make too many changes from the book like they did with the first two films. That's the only thing I don't like, it just throws me off, jumbling the stories up like that. I know who dies in the Pelennor Fields in the book but I wouldn't be surprised if they change it to a different character. Hek they had Halbarad in the Two Towers film die at Helms Deep when he doesn't even appear until the third book. (I think I am remembering that right). And I hope Aragorn doesn't fight Sauron at the end because that just plain doesn't happen in the book.
Read about this on CHUD yesterday. However... by BigPoppi	Oct 15th, 2003 07:45:42 AM
This was much better. At least Mr. Beaks knows the names of the characters, places and objects of importance. "Smilin" Jack Ruby, though he admittedly said he's never read the books, really had no idea what was going on.
Bouncing Bear by Henry's Cat	Oct 15th, 2003 07:58:31 AM
Mr Beaks, I share your turning-30 pain. May I sggest that you and all the other aicn peeps check out http://www.komotv.com/qt and click on the bouncing bear. It's hilarious! PS. Lovely descriptions, can't wait until December
book vs film by prozactime	Oct 15th, 2003 08:00:50 AM
I know it's been said a thousand times, so one more doesn't matter: A movie is a movie! Read the book. Enjoy the book. Brood with the book... and then forget it when you're at the movies. I find that what really is GREAT with LOTR movies is that the whole experience is so REAL that, at the end, who cares if Shelob comes out in part 3 (instead of ending part 2 with her) or that the whole Hobbiton wreck by Saruman and Grima isn't shot. You get to SEE Gandalf and the Balrog falling, you get to see the Loss of the ring at the very beginning (Elrond in armour, for God's sake, and fighting!)... you get to see it all, and so well shot, that any transgressions with the book are forgivable. And by the way, who cares who the Oscar goes to. (Although having a 3rd part getting best picture would be something for the almanacs).
RE: Return of the King by JAGUART	Oct 15th, 2003 08:04:06 AM
As I write this, I'm lying here completely naked. I've set my waterbed temperature to 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, and filled it with a combination of amniotic fluid and cattle blood. I've plugged all my orifices with hunks of foam rubber and now suck oxygen through a SCUBA regulator. The room humidifier is on eleven and I'm covered with a thick layer of uncooked hotdogs. There will I incubate for the next two months. On the morning of December 17th I shall emerge anew, have my girlfriend at the ready slap my ass, shower up and head to the theatre, Reborn Once Again
"Oscar chances" by TheWoodMan	Oct 15th, 2003 08:11:20 AM
For Christ's sakes, will people just drop this already? It'll win the usual third-tier awards for effects, costumes, cinematography, etc., and THAT'S IT. And who cares? Why does anyone ascribe any credibility or importance to this joke of an award? "RotK" will go over huge with kids of all ages and make twenty zillion bucks at the box office; what else matters? Leave the "Academy" to their irrelevant, coked-out circle jerking and MOVE ON.
special edition rework with Georg by Cotillion	Oct 15th, 2003 08:11:35 AM
I heard that the special edition with all 3 movies will be turned over to Georg Lucas who already has some great ideas how things can be improved: - Gandalf will be recolored in a rainbow coat of pinkish-brownish-yellow to reflect all races, all references to "the white" will be eliminated - all hobbit scenes will be re-shoot with Warwick Davies playing all parts - the old guy at the battle of helms deep will not shoot first - Gollums will be called Jar Jar Gollum and the voice will be rerecorded (mee saaa haaapy meee waaanaaa riiinggaaa) - It turns out that Arwen and Aragorn are actually cousins in the first degree and their wedding is off (they are actually cousins... altough with slightly off balance generations in between...)
Oh Lordy by Heleno	Oct 15th, 2003 08:30:26 AM
It is just not natural to be crying with anticipation of a film. Need to see this yesterday so I can go again today.
Also starring Hulk Hogan as Denethor's Servant by AndrewJuve	Oct 15th, 2003 08:35:08 AM
"You must be losing you mind, brother"
Everything I hear about ROTK is good. by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 15th, 2003 08:49:31 AM
I want the freakin movie released now!!! Cheers.
Oh, RoTK will get an Oscar all right... by rev_skarekroe	Oct 15th, 2003 08:59:01 AM
...an Oscar Mayer Weiner shoved right up it's gay elfy ass! Haw Haw! Ok, sorry, I got nothin'. sk
Oscar recognition IS very important by Sheeld	Oct 15th, 2003 08:59:22 AM
Not in the way that ROTK, or the other installments, need that recognition to warrant a place in history, or claim critical success. Of course not. These movies will be revered and loved forever, no matter what uncle oscars does with it. But it's really for the sake of the Academy that they DO bestow ROTK with the oscars it'll deserve. Best FIlm will be hard as it's not a completely stand-alone film, it's still a part three, but if they don't hand out mr. baldie to Peter Jackson, the reputation of the Academy will be forever tarnished. And I mean FOREVER. I don't care how well the other contenders are directed; no one ever attempted a project such as this, plus succeeding in it almost beyond belief. This has to be one of the alltime greatest directorial achievements, and if the Academy won't recognize this, they're dead. Really; regardless of all the other fuck ups (and there have been far too many), denying Jackson his oscar will be the ultimate downfall for the Academy. They won't ever be taken serious again, and all value of the oscar will disappear. Personally, I still hold the oscars in high regard. Not as the prize for THE best this or that of the year, but at least for one of the best, a great honour bestowed by fellow filmmakers. But if they deny PJ his oscar, even this firm believer will have no faith left, and what's more, the Academy will reveal itself as a completely inept institution, thereby losing all the merit it ever had. So Academy, be warned!
Drexxell, don't tell us you fell for that silly "spike" hoax? by minderbinder	Oct 15th, 2003 10:09:20 AM
Really, you think PJ would show off the death of a major character a couple years in advance? Just look at the picture, it's so schlockily done, you can even see an elastic strap holding the beard on. I hope you were kidding about being worried by this.
On Oscar, and on credibility, and on the permanence of the fanbo by Vegas	Oct 15th, 2003 10:29:03 AM
Okay, ROTK is going to be a good movie. And it will be the favorite movie of the year for many people. But if it does not win these awards, do you know what that's going to change? Nothing. It will still make a shitload of money, you'll all still be able to own it on dvd, and your lives shall continue in almost all respects unchanged from what they are today. Yes, Peter Jackson is a good director. Guess what? He's not the only one. There are lots of different movies, and many of them are wonderful for many different reasons. If ROTK were to win, there would be those who'd cry that Lost in Translation were robbed. Or Cold Mountain. Or The Last Samurai. Or the Alamo. Or even Kill Bill. I personally am cheering for Finding Nemo above all other challengers, but whether or not it wins? I'll still have to go to work on Monday. My life will be unchanged, as will yours. I agree that the Best Picture Winners of 2001 and 2002 were incorrectly chosen. But I personally believe they should have been the Royal Tenenbaums and Adaptation. Or maybe Memento and 25th Hour. Or maybe Moulin Rouge and the Pianist. Anyway, the thing is, even if ROTK doesn't win a damn thing, you'll all still watch next year. The Oscars have weathered far more grievous sins than not awarding a fantasy trilogy some little gold statue. They gave Best Picture to Kramer vs. Kramer over Apocalypse Now. They survived. They gave Best Actress to Julia Roberts over Ellen Burstyn. They survived. They never gave Best Director to Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, or (so far) Martin Scorsese. They still survived. Hell, they even survived that Benigni fiasco. Because though we hate it when they don't agree with us, we still hold out hope. We still do crazy things like hope for validation for a hobbit movie from an organization that supposedly lost all credibility when it rewarded Opie over the Kiwi (Should have gone to Wes Anderson that year anyway). So stop all the complaining and doomsaying, it rings hollow anyway.
PJ and Oscar by MPJedi2	Oct 15th, 2003 11:51:58 AM
The idea that PJ should get an Oscar "for the Academy's sake" is just so laughable. Look at that statement! Just look at it!! I mean, to echo a point, MARTIN SCORSESE DOESN'T HAVE AN OSCAR. Plus, _directing_ isn't all about shots and special effects. It's about getting performance out of actors, and in that regard LOTR & PJ cannot hold a candle to someone like Eastwood with MYSTIC RIVER. Or, let's talk about moving the medium forward. AMERICAN SPLENDOR totally re-defines the concept of structure by brilliantly melding drama with documentary. These are all worthy films, but grow up, look around, and realize that just because they made some incredible books, that many people place too much importance on, into some _really entertaining_ movies is not a mandate from God on high that awards should be given. Now, I want you all to note: I have not said _one bad thing_ about LOTR, they're great, but there are _many_ other great films this year. As to the guy who had to use this talkback as an excuse to take a stab at Lucas...can we keep to the point?
So how was Gimli humiliated in this one? by GypsyTRobot	Oct 15th, 2003 12:08:28 PM
I'm in a bad mood so PJ luvvers skip this post if you don't want to be pissy right back. Since dwarf tossing, excess gas, and falling off a horse have already been covered - my guess is a dwarf de-pantsing (debreeching?) in the P's of the D. Also I'm sure there will be more pimping of PJ's bad-acting kids, and the Witch King will have an even worse voice than he did in the cartoon version. Goddamn the good parts of this movie better be really good so it averages out OK. *** After watching FotR and TTT numerous times am I the only one who's realized that PJ's directing of human actors is not always that great??? When someone has a strong emotion, their eyes get really wide. That's PJ's one big directing chop. Different characters use the same inflections over and over, as in "you KNOW ". There are bad line readings like when Legolas says "You have led us this far you have not led us astray" (or words to that effect). There are stupid dramatic inserts like Aragorn going off the cliff and Sam almost drowning. People talk in a long drawn out matter so much, if they'd sped up the dialogue a bit the movies might be shorter by 15 minutes each. If PJ had handled the special effects and logistics while having a better director for the main actors, these movies would have been great works equalling some of the best movies ever made. I'm sorry, I love TTT dearly and I appreciate PJ's efforts, but I can't worship the man like some of you. These movies could and should have been better.
Now, now, Mr. Beaks. You will endure, you will survive. by WarDog	Oct 15th, 2003 12:09:04 PM
And when the clouds lift and the sun breaks through, it'll shine out all the clearer (or words to that effect.) Try revelling in the fact that you got to see this much before its release, you lucky dog. Man, just the preview is enough to make me pound the arms of my chair, waggle my head and go, "Wacka-wacka-wacka! ARF! ARF! ARF!" I have just one question: are they going to rename the reforged Narsil as it is in the books, Anduril, meaning "Flame or the West?" I would hope PJ didn't forget THAT. He's already on thin ice with thousands of LOTR purists for his changes in TTT.
I've already got my tickets for the Trilogy here in Seattle at t by Manaqua	Oct 15th, 2003 12:22:38 PM
Dec.16 can't come soon enough! yowza! M
RoTK won't win the Oscar for Best Picture by elfstoned	Oct 15th, 2003 12:26:27 PM
At least I hope not. Look at the pieces of shit that have won in the last few years - Chicago, Gladiator, A Beautiful Mind - utter crap all of them. My prediction for Best Picture? Seabiscuit - another load of manure masquerading as art.
Good job, Mr Beaks! by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 15th, 2003 12:40:53 PM
I think I would normally be worried about the whole Denethor thang, but you and SJR seem to dig it so much my anxiety is quietened a bit. So, we like the giant spider, do we? Hmm. Good. Good.
I know how Sauron dies... by JBurton	Oct 15th, 2003 12:47:23 PM
Aragorn gets his ass handed to him by Sauron for a good five minutes... Then Frodo gets the ring into Mt Doom... Then Aragorn throws down his sword and goes fisticuffs with Sauron. He begins to punch him in the gut lifting him off the floor with each blow. BAH-NAH! BAH-NAH! BAH-NAH! Then he picks up his sword and hacks off his head. This is gonna be Rocky all over again, mark my words...
What the hell are we going to talk about when there are no more by 007-11	Oct 15th, 2003 01:59:56 PM
What will fill the void?(sidenote: I thought Shelob would be bigger, looks sort of unimpressive in the trailer)
"Denethor by morGoth	Oct 15th, 2003 03:34:33 PM
Wouldn't want him coming off as some lightweight "touchy feely" father/high mucky-muck now would we? Hey folks, now you know what people have been talking about when they say "Better bring a BIG box of tissues to the theater!" The Lord of the Rings is a tragedy but it's also very uplifting. Well, depending on how PJ decides to end it. Thanks for the imminently enjoyable Mr. Beaks. Erm, I mean, Soul Man {[:^)
Oh man, thanks for that GypsyTRobot by morGoth	Oct 15th, 2003 04:52:02 PM
...the mental image of Legolas pulling Gimli
Hey, DrexxellTheNecro... by slone13	Oct 15th, 2003 04:59:50 PM
Shut up. You're annoying. And stupid. That's all. Oh, ROTK will rule them all.
The bouncing bear was very sad by GypsyTRobot	Oct 15th, 2003 05:03:19 PM
It precipitated me into an even deeper depression from which there is no escape. *** Actually I thought a bony hand would reach out, yank Gimli's pants down and pinch his big prosthetic butt. Yeah, That would really lighten the mood. of the movie, not my mood.
ah yes, the ol' "skillet upside the head"...... by magyarman	Oct 15th, 2003 11:28:37 PM

It's Wednesday! by Miami Mofo	Oct 15th, 2003 11:31:56 PM
NINE :~) weeks (efe) until LotR:RotK!!!!!!!!! *Thanks Mr. Beaks. "And O! the rows of silver dishes / and the store of silver spoons! / For Sunday there's a special pair, / And these they polish up with care / on Saturday afternoons." **GO MARLINS!!!!!!!!!
obviously Mr. Beaks doesn't remember Frodo's "death" at the hand by magyarman	Oct 15th, 2003 11:36:58 PM
I can see it now: a bunch of fans who, like Mr. Beaks, haven't read the books in so many years that when they see Frodo "die" and then "come back to life" they will curse Peter Jackson for adding unnecessary plot twists, the same way they did over the whole Aragorn-falling-off-a-cliff-in to-a-river part of Two Towers (although granted, that wasn't in the book).
The only way this movie could win the Oscar... by Judge Doom	Oct 15th, 2003 11:39:39 PM
...Is by adding Tom bombadil! He should appear in Return of the King and team up with Gimli, kinda Scooby and Shaggy.
peter jackson by hanktallica	Oct 16th, 2003 02:29:06 AM
first, lotr rules so far. second, instead of king kong, who would like to see pete tackle the works of h.p. lovecraft? a good call of cthulu adaptation? frankly, i would shit my pants in glee. and i don't normally shit my pants. normally.
ROTK Oscar chances by krylite	Oct 16th, 2003 02:58:32 AM
Despite the gazillions this movie will make, Jackson and probably NL definitely want to win the big oscars next year. The pick-ups over the summer have focused on directing character scenes. While other directors are good in this year's slew of contenders, don't count Jackson out. If he was just Lucas-style sfx, FOTR and TTT would have no nominations except for the efx ones. Sure, the past best pics like Chicago and ABM were crap, but ROTK would have something in common with a best pic(hopefully nothing else) making gadzillions which would be that flashy fad Titanic.
you've all got the spike thing a bit wrong. by theThingFromTheS	Oct 16th, 2003 03:31:47 AM
there is a spike scene. but it coes not involve sauraman? it comes at the very end, when the host of the west is at the black gates. they are surrounded by thousands of orcs and things. then out comes SAURON
......CONTINUED.... by theThingFromTheS	Oct 16th, 2003 03:37:19 AM
the big cheese in mordor. a massive fight ensues. sauron kills loads of goodies. aragorn, fighting like a true king, hacks orcs heads a plenty. he finally reaches sauron. he tries his best, but the evil one is just too much for him. aragorn is about to fall from exhaustion. just then, gimili has an idea. he runs behind sauron and crouches down. this gives aragorn the opportunity he needs. he pushes sauron with all his might. sauron falls back over the the dwarf and onto a huge shiny spike (oo-er missus). dead at last, the story ends. oh yeah, sorry!!! SPOILERS.
Ah Drexxel, a question... by CellarDoor	Oct 16th, 2003 07:20:52 AM
...Perhaps you can help me. I have been long searching for The List. They say it shines like gold and smells of strawberrys. Do you not know it's name? It is the list of objectivity and there are only a few people who have access to it. They say that the fabled list details ALL objective knowledge of movies past, present and future. Many TBers know of what I speak for they have often displayed this knowledge. You must know of this list as you KNOW that PJ has fucked the story up. Where is the list dammit? I must find it or else all my future opinions are forfeit. Where is the list?!
Drexxell, I'll remember your post, and when RotK comes out and t by minderbinder	Oct 16th, 2003 08:27:48 AM
Just like the whiners who were so convinced that "PJ fucked the story up" by having Arwen swinging a sword at Helm's Deep. Of course these movies could be better (any movie could) or more like the books, but which director could/would have turned out a better product than PJ did? (much less one that's as true to the originals) Seriously, put forth a name. The books are practically unfilmable, outside of a wishful fantasy I can't imagine anyone making better versions of these stories.
Drexell, there will be no spikey wheel by JacksonsBane	Oct 16th, 2003 12:19:54 PM
PJ has thought better of this, just like he thought better of Arwen at Helm's Deep (which he filmed btw). So engage your brain and think about things before you post crap.
I find it rather curious SPOILERS... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 12:38:50 PM

Roger and copy that Skyway! by morGoth	Oct 16th, 2003 12:56:45 PM
I guess not everybody has been around over the years to have known about some of the stuff you mentioned. As for the Istari-kabob, a case could be made AGAINST Saruman falling to his death at Isengard as the Ent induced flooding would've washed all that stuff down into the great pit or completely away, yes? Just a thought...
ROTK's Oscar Chances by FloydGandoli	Oct 16th, 2003 01:08:52 PM
They are strong and here's why: we've had two years to realize just how good these films are. When some Oscar winners fade away after winning (The English Patient comes to mind), LOTR isn't fading. People realize Jackson's monumental achievement and have had 2 years to process it.
Good point Mr. asbestos britches... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 01:44:00 PM
... and the Ents ARE described as being very thorough. But might not one of the Saruman's 'infernal machines' in a pit near the base of Orthanc have been overlooked by Fangorn and his folk/survived the flooding? I'm not saying that this is the way it goes down. The bottom line is that we simply do not know. All I'm saying, given the fact that TSOTS is out, is the dreaded "Istar Kabob" really that big a deal to anyone other than hardcore purists? I think there's plenty of other stuff already in evidence to tweak THAT group of viewers. Yeah, you might say that it's an example of PJ sensationalizing certain events in the tale if he decides to go this route, but it really doesn't 'hurt' anything IMO. The expunging of TSOSTS is FAR more grievous as far as I'm concerned, but I also believe that The Scouring wouldn't really work all that well in the movie version.
In a homage to Christopher Lee's endless complaining, Saruman tr by Fred	Oct 16th, 2003 02:13:05 PM

Well, FloydGondoli... by MPJedi2	Oct 16th, 2003 02:58:51 PM
Here's where that logic fails. We've _not_ had two years to ruminate on the quality of these films. Not like THE ENGLISH PATIENT. Why? Because much like the Lucasfilm marketing/hype program, New Line has never let us forget that there was "more coming." See, we're all too busy waiting for the next film to think about the weaknesses (and, yes, Virginia, there are some) of what we've already seen. THE ENGLISH PATIENT came and went, there weren't books and games and action figures screaming "cultural event" at us in _every_ asile of the department store. The real question is why are there so many fanboys who seem to _need_ the Academy to validate that these films were/are as good as you've made them out to be in your own minds. I went, I liked, I bought the DVDs. I don't need anyone to validate me, or Peter Jackson.
rePUTED?! by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 03:13:48 PM
I don't even have the lousey excuse of it being a typo! The p is nowhere near the f on a qwerty keyboard, DOH! It should of course been: reFUTED
rePUTED?! by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 03:36:35 PM
I don't even have the lousey excuse of it being a typo! The p is nowhere near the f on a qwerty keyboard, DOH! It should of course been: reFUTED
But We All KNOW that SEABISCUIT Will Win at the OSCARS by Drath	Oct 16th, 2003 04:19:44 PM
I will happily eat crow if a Lord of the Rings movie wins the best picture Oscar, but I think the Miyazaki movie Nausicaa has a better chance of getting a mega Nation wide release from Disney. ROTK is a fantasy movie, and the sequel to a film that didn't win. It would be a huge first if it won, and it's clear the Academy lacks imagination for such a feat. If Peter Jackson gets the director's award, that'll be the extent of the recognition they will give outside of the technical categories. I am not saying this because I don't think the movie will or can be the best movie of the year, I just don't believe the Oscars is capable of recognizing it.
i was going to trash ROTK.... by MisterGrimloch	Oct 16th, 2003 04:47:40 PM
but i see that this talkback is already well secured with plenty of solid negativity for this overrated trilogy of films. thank god there is still sanity in the world (though certainly none at my house).
LOTR series setting new records for characters who "seemingly di by Gheorghe Zamfir	Oct 16th, 2003 04:58:38 PM
Crazy sonsofbitches.
The one thing that I still can't figure out of LOTR by Sheeld	Oct 16th, 2003 06:51:04 PM
is how Gandalf got his staff back after it was taken from him by Saruman and he flies off of Orthanc. It's not like he has more than 1 of those, like tennis rackets, right? Or did he carve a new one in some spare time? Now, I'm not bashing here, just wondering. And as for my warning to the Academy: that was only semi-serious of course, I just really hope he gets it, s'all.
The Return of the Hobbit Lass by elanor	Oct 16th, 2003 07:24:16 PM
Hello to almost all (ciao to DoT) and ptthhhttt to the usual trolls. I am back from my journey to the wilds. Saw bears and wolves and bison and heard endlessly bugling fighting. Great hiking this trip and now I must stay home for a while and endure the immensely exciting and frustrating build-up to the glory that will surely be ROTK. Nice report, Mr. Beaks and thanks for your non-spoiler version. A big smooch to the tailenders, esp my brothers Moaters and morG and nice to see wicked sister Alice again, too!***Ebonic, you always crack me up. Sheeld, I caught your Oscar humor - don't let these crabby asses worry ya. As for Gandalf's staff - my opinion is that it is something of a continuity error in the film but it's one that kinda exists in the book, too, in a way. One could just as well ask, why doesn't Saruman confiscate Gandy's staff when he has him cornered? It doesn't bother me a whit and I have conveniently rationalized that when he slid off Gwaihir in Lorien, Galadriel's elves helped him whip up a new one. And I assume Saruman tossed the old grey staff down a hole into an orc fire. There was speculation for a time that one could notice a difference between the pre and post Orthanc staffs but I never saw any. If Conan were here, he would say "cheers"!
No worries Sheeld... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:37:53 PM
... but the answer to your question is actually quite simple: After Gandalf vanquishes the Balrog, his immortal Maiar spirit [Olorin] actually vacates the 'physical vessel' [body] that is 'Gandalf the Grey'; in essence 'dies' out of the physical plain, (perhaps the form was too badly damaged in his battle with the fire demon for him to continue his task in ME(?); IE: Rallying the free peoples against Sauron). He subsequently is 'sent back' [to physical life in ME] by the Valar as the 'White' Istar (VS the 'Grey' that he was before) in essence replacing Saruman. In a sense, he IS Saruman, as he SHOULD have been. He, Gandalf the White thus has a new body, new (or will have) staff, new 'office', new everything. He is then rescued from Zirak Zigil (they peak where he fought the Balrog) by the great eagle Gwaihir who has come searching for him at the behest of Galadriel, and is flown to Lothlorien where he is garbed in white by the Elves and given a cloak and brooch like the ones gifted to the rest of the Fellowship by the Galadhrim in FOTR. (Take a look at the scene in T2T where he is summoning Shadowfax outside the eaves of Fangorn Forest and you will notice the cloak and brooch.) I always assumed that he fashioned a new staff for himself whilst 'recuperating' in Lorien. It seems that PJ & Co. had the same impression, as the style and execution of the staff (the symbol of his office) of Gandalf the White in the films, (very different from the rough stick he bore as Gandalf the Grey) quite obviously reflects the same design aesthetic as the structures and accoutrements seen in the cinematic Lothlorien.
GAK! Feisty Hobbit lass shows up just in time to beat a poor old by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:40:45 PM
WELCOME Ealanor dear! How you dooin'?
And I BLEW it to boot!... by Skyway Moaters	Oct 16th, 2003 07:47:37 PM
Dang, where DOES he get another staff after Saruman confiscates the frIst one? Elanor's probably right about him 'aquiring' a replacement in Lorien but if I'm not mistaken, JRRT never even adresses the issue. morG? Any input?
Grimloch admits the truth by hildebrand	Oct 16th, 2003 09:08:43 PM
Ah, a confession. It is good to unburden one's soul to the common masses, admitting such failings is the first step toward a real recovery. The question of course is how deep the insanity runs. Yes, yes, you will try to foist this off on the wife or children (if you have procreated, that is), but of course that is the first sign of repression, and that could signal a less then full willingness to seek a true breakthrough. Ah, I wish I was your therapist, I would become rich beyond the dreams of avarice on your sessions alone. God speed, gentle person, we are pulling for you.
Now that Harry is to be a producer... by hildebrand	Oct 16th, 2003 09:11:30 PM
...perhaps he could produce a talkback that does not get all funky in its ordering. Gads, nonetheless, look to the middle of the talkback to see my diagnosis of a troll.
Unexpected death of a character? by Miami Mofo	Oct 16th, 2003 09:31:51 PM
Either Mr. Beaks HAS forgotten about Theoden, or else someone else bites the dust which will come as a complete surprise. I vote for Elrond! [But I'm sure Mr. B. DID forget about T.] *Hola e - welcome back. *morGy, thanks for trying.
test by Mikah Kurtz	Oct 16th, 2003 10:11:04 PM
Sorry, I haven't posted in a while and I wanted to make sure this was still active.
Sauron vs. Aragorn by Mikah Kurtz	Oct 16th, 2003 10:21:06 PM
OK, let me start off by saying that I'm a huge fan of the books, read them hundreds of times and I'm not bothered at all by the changes in the movies. A literal translation of the books would not have worked. OK, maybe I'm a little bothered by how quickly Faramir converts after a somewhat cheesy speech by Sam about 'there's some good in the world and it's worth fighting for' but I think Peter will fix this in the EE. My point here is the much rumored fight between Aragorn and Sauron would not only be cool but it is in the books. It's in the Silmarillion. Except it's one of Feanor's sons (can't remember his name) and he fights Morgoth. Imagine if he did it just like that story. Dispair sets in, all is lost. Aragorn jumps on a horse and rides to the black gates, banging on the gates and challenging Sauron to come forth, and he comes. Also remember, Peter has always promised us that we will see Sauron unmasked before the end of this. We have to, really.
Special hola to my dear Miami by elanor	Oct 16th, 2003 10:56:34 PM
Oy - I should never start naming names, I always leave someone out! And of all folk, Miami who always makes me giggle with his (efe). I also left out another important word in my last post, though only those animal-watching geeks among us would care: ELK - endlessly bugling and fighting elk. There. Ah me. As for the Sauron vs Aragorn - I remember PJ grousing about how hard it is/was to portray Sauron since Tolkien made him a giant flaming eye-ball and I do think he thought about and perhaps filmed a physical fight but I think he has long since changed his mind. I do not expect to see Sauron in physical form at the Gates but I do expect some new expression of his nasty form at a certain fiery moment if ya know what I mean - some big threatening shape reaching out, yes, beyond the ole-flaming slit (heh heh mortsleam). I hear what your saying about the Fingon/Morgoth fight (it was Fingon, wasn't it?)and since I have been so thrilled by the imagination shown by PJ & Co. I would probably enjoy seeing such a fight on screen. But on another level I would still prefer it if the movie does NOT got there as I fear it might ultimately come off a bit cheesy and also it would take away from Frodo's sacrifice.*BTW, I agree with Miami that it is probably T's end that Beaks has forgotten.I have had to give up on going to Trilogy Tuesday as the tickets to my cinema were sold out while I was OOT and I didn't have a chance. That's really OK as I could not have takem the whole day off work anyway. I am determined to see the SEV's on the big screen though, in the weeks prior to ROTK's release. Also, I am thoroughly convinced that we will have ample opportunity to watch them marathon-style in the months to come.**I hope to see some of the tb'ers from that last, well, second to last at least, tb - raw bean, devil's own, irritable, djinn and... shoot - see? I shouldn't start with the names - I've already forgotten several. Well, all you newbie guys and gals from the free will tb - c'mon back!
when Saruman is skewered by djinnj	Oct 16th, 2003 11:06:09 PM
d'ya think we'll get any representation of the misty form rising up, looking to the west, and then blowing away? Oooooh, I hope so.... One of my favoritest parts. // Hi Elanor, et al! Been lurking, waiting for the Olag-hai to disperse.
When will one be able to preorder the 3-movie set? by Flatus Maximus	Oct 16th, 2003 11:32:58 PM
I want a low price for it! I also can't wait for ROTK! I'm bored with entertaining myself by lying to gamers who won't read the books; telling them Cthulhu shows up (summoned by Saruman) and consumes everybody (except a few of Ghan-Buri-Ghan's folk, who evolve to be Lovecraft, Tolkien, and Jackson) and then goes and takes another billion-year nap in R'lyeh. I want this movie NOW!
Gandalf's staff (yeh, shut up, I know what you're thinking you s by Cherub Rock	Oct 17th, 2003 12:48:10 AM
re Skyway Moaters, in the book Gandalf doesn't lose his staff, he's escorted up stairs to the top of Orthanc where he is held captive and then escapes in much the same way as the book. so its Jacko, not Tolkien, thats got some explaining to do. btw, to whoever posted that rant about comic book adaptations sticking it to the purists, i see your point but it's pretty irrelevant. just because other movies are less faithful to their source material (which is a different medium, no less) doesn't make departures in this one acceptable. I am grateful for what Jackson has given us, for sure, and i never woulda dreamed it would have been filmed on this scale, but anyone who has loved the books for years can't help but occasionally imagine how much better it woulda been if it was faithful. Besides, the fact that purists even exist in the target audience for these films has meant that they have stayed fairly on track. check out movies of books no one cares about and you'll see what i mean!
I'm skulking around Elanor, by Conan_the_Humble	Oct 17th, 2003 01:37:25 AM
Just laying low after a bit of written stoushing with a number of morons. Anyhoo, it was Fingolfin, the high king of the Noldor (and the half-brother of Feanor) who had the duel with Morgoth, after he was extremely pissed off after the Dagor Bragollach (the battle of unnumbered tears...) How'd that go anyway MorGy, still a bit sore are we? I quite agree, nice report Beaks. Are Quints reports going to surface now that lots of ROTK spoilers are being released or are they still under edict? And as Elanor rightly pointed out, Cheers.
So poor Pippin is not spared the ordeal by Sabster	Oct 17th, 2003 04:54:15 AM
of singing for Denethor? I wonder what song he
Hullo there, ladies and gentlemen! by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 17th, 2003 05:27:58 AM
Nice to see you! I'm back again, after many adventures. In any case, my own holdout for songs has always been Sam's song in the Tower, which I can't actually remember off the top of my head. Though they did let him do his bit of poetry about Gandalf and Lorien, so they might, they might. As for "it could have been adapted better"... well, I dunno. The things that I personally consider important could have been given priority, certainly - which would have led to a more hobbit-centric movie with a kickier-ass Frodo - but then someone into the more war-focussed aspects or the Elven aspects might have been disappointed. I don't agree with every decision that's been made in the adaptation, some of them I strongly disagree with, but since it doesn't change LOTR the books in any way at all, a movie is just icing on the cake. And I do love the movies, very much. They give me joy and it seems mean-spirited to knock them for a few things I think are wrong (especially when you can produce people that think the things I hate were very right and perfect and all) so in a way it's kind of pointless to debate it. But anyway, yes, "The Choices of Master Samwise", please. With songs. And Nekkid!Hobbitry. Or at least topless. See, there's something they shouldn'ta changed right there...Or at least white-shirted, if we're going to stick to a 12a rating.
Minderbinder: "Which director could have turned out a better pr by Commando Cody	Oct 17th, 2003 06:54:50 AM
Hey, I think PJ did a great job -- and not to take anything away from his work -- it's still just an interpretation. I like the movies...over time, they've grown on me a bit (I don't find them the end-all of cinema, but they're fun). However, along those lines, I'm certainly NOT prepared to kiss PJ's ass to the point that we somehow conclude he's the ONLY director in all of Hollywood (or the world) who could film and craft a good LOTR trilogy. You want a name? I'll give you 2. I think had Speilberg or Cameron emotionally thrown themselves into the trilogy they would have done exceptional jobs, where each final trilogy would have exuded their own interpretative spirit as well. Would they have been "different" from what PJ has wrought? Undoubtedly, such is the difference of differing artistic eyes. Would they be just as "good"? I'd be willing to bet so. Hell, Cameron would've not only directed them great (a Cameron version of the Helm's Deep battle would probably kick some serious ass), but he'd have most likely crafted 3 superb screenplays as well.
What's this I hear? by Eternal	Oct 17th, 2003 07:26:50 AM
Sauron and Aragorn fight?? Sauron unmasked?? This sounds rather exciting. I'm not a LOTR purist so any improvements that're made are fine with me (Arwen/Flight to the Ford, not withstanding). I was always in favor of changes to the ending - specifically, Sauron's rather anti-climactic demise. The original finale is not very satisfying IMHO, and on the big screen I'm sure many would feel cheated. It seems PJ might feel the same way if these rumors are true. I hope they are. (But maybe just extensions of the Palantir scene and don't take place on the battlefield?)
Spielberg presents: James Cameron's LOTR by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 08:30:08 AM
Well, as I've said in other TBs - yes, these movies aren't perfect but they could have been a hell of a lot worse. I think PJ's FOTR is as good an adaptation you would get. And I remain convinced that there's a great movie buried inside TTT - or at least lying on PJ's cutting room floor. ** Mikah Kurtz: yup, I agree with you about Sam's schmaltzy speech. I was crushed when I first heard it - all the more because PJ had specifically promised in an interview (which you can read on TORN) that he would avoid sentimentality like the plaque. Even Sean Astin was reluctant to perform the "some good in the world" speech as he was afraid it was too cheesy - but PJ went ahead with it anyway. To Astin's credit, he tried his best to make the lines work - but I really feel that this was a moment when the actor should have stood his ground and defended his character's dignity. *** Commander Cody: it's interesting to speculate as to how LOTR would have turned out in another director's hands. I'd say that with Cameron, the action scenes would have been better - Helm's Deep would have been thrilling. But I don't think he would have got the character interaction right - particularly the brilliant scenes between Bilbo, Gandalf and Frodo in the first part of FOTR. With Spielberg, the sentimentality would probably have got completely out of hand. I think that neither of them would have captured the spirit and texture of Tolkien's work - which PJ does so magnificently in FOTR. And they probably wouldn't have filmed in New Zealand... Imagine if Lucas had directed!!!! The entire thing would have been filmed in front of a bluescreen with the actors standing around like dummies, speaking terrible lines.... Er, come to think of it, some scenes in PJ's TTT are a bit like that...
Wonders never cease... by AliceInWonderlnd	Oct 17th, 2003 09:00:05 AM
Incredibly enough, I agree with Orson, at least about Spielberg. It would have been a proper maudlin schmaltz-fest. Regarding Cameron, I think he would have been the best second-choice. The whole thing would have been a bit more action-oriented though, and since I never thought the action was the best bit, I might have ended up disappointed. As for Lucas... you know, he could have been kind of interesting in some ways, providing he didn't write the adaptation or direct any actors. He would almost certainly have leant away from the location shooting, making the whole thing look more artificial, but he does have distinctive visual taste and an eye for fantasy environments. Whatever you say, parts of TPM and AOTC looked gorgeous, at least until anyone opened their mouths, and there was some fantastic sound design going on. Actually, though, I think Ridley Scott might have done an interesting job - he can do very immersive, atmospheric movies with attention to detail. All water under the bridge of course now, but still, interesting to think about.
Does big box office = great movie? by Strangefellow	Oct 17th, 2003 09:03:41 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else think that these movies aren't as good as they're made out to be? I dunno what it is, I thought the first movie was pretty good, but the second one just didn't grab me. I mean sometimes these movies can get pretty hokey. Personally I don't find battles and sword fighting very interesting unless they've got some story behind them. And I actually prefer the old cartoon version of Lord Of The Rings, which at least had some funky animation. At this stage I'm not that stoked for Return of the king, though I'll definitely rent it on video.
Lucas, Bakshi etc by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 09:26:13 AM
Alice, although I loathe Lucas' recent work, I also think that he can stage pretty good action scenes - and I hate to say this, but this is one thing he possibly does better than PJ......aaaaggh, that hurt. **** What I would really love to see would be John Boorman's version of LOTR! Sure, he was planning to do it as only one film, but I'm convinced he would have made something brilliant. Like Harry, I am a huge admirer of his work on Excalibur.** Strangefellow, I sort of know what you mean but I have to disagree with you: I think FOTR is a superb adaptaion of Tolkien's book, particularly in the first hour - which is mesmerising. (BTW, have you read the books?) Yes, TTT has many faults and these have been discussed ad nauseum - BUT: you have to remember that this project was originally conceived as TWO movies - not three. So in a sense, TTT suffers from having been shoehorned in at the last minute, which, in my opinion, is why it has gone a bit wobbly. My personal feeling is that PJ should have stuck with his original plan to do two movies - OR - take an extra six months to do a proper screenplay for all three. Also, the one movie per year schedule was definitely unrealistic - I would prefer to wait an extra six to twelve months between each release if this meant that the end result was better. In any case I remain cautiously optimistic about ROTK. Although it is impossible to judge from a trailer, I still can't help but be impressed by the one for ROTK (have you seen it? - the best trailer EVER!). So I feel fairly confident that ROTK will be better than TTT - though I sincerely doubt if it will reach the heights of FOTR. *** Re: Bakshi's LOTR: yup, I am a fan of Bakshi's version as well. Although it is flawed, it also has many terrific moments - and in some respects is better than PJ's version.
Orson... by Strangefellow	Oct 17th, 2003 09:38:59 AM
Thanks for replying to my post, Orson. Yes, I read the Lord Of The Rings when I was a kid but it's quite a few years ago and frankly, I couldn't tell you if the movie adaptatioin is 100% accurate . I haven't seen the ROTK trailer yet but I'll judge it when I see it. Yeah, I can see how TTT might have been a last-minute job because they seem to spend their whole movie just filling in time. As I remember it, the cartoon version had a lot more tension and better sword fights. I did like the attack of the ringwraiths in the old tower in FOTR though.
Sold Out Lord of the Rings Trilogy by LordZanthos	Oct 17th, 2003 10:45:12 AM
As I'm sure you know, LotR is selling out everywhere. For good reason too. Here in my city, the trilogy is being shown on one screen. That means that most fans won't have the option to see the trilogy in all it's glory. After considering this, I decided it was time to act, and I created an online petition to request New Line showing the Trilogy on more screens. The URL is http://www.petitiononline.com/ 116379qm/petition.html Please help me get the word out. New Line needs to know how important this is. Is it really reasonable for anyone, be it Studio, theater, or whoever else is making such a half-hearted attempt to believe that a set of blockbuster movies like LotR, which appeals to many different demographics would only need on theater to be shown on? I know a lot of people who thought it would be good to see, just because it really is a once in a lifetime opportunity. To this end, I would like to make the simple suggestion that we begin by first signing my online petition, then inundating New Line Cinema with POLITE e-mails (webmaster@newline.com), phone calls (310-854-5811), mail (116 N. Robertson Blvd., St.. 200 Los Angeles, CA 90048), etc. We need to do this until they listen. This is an event that will never happen again, it
The Double-Edged Sword. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 17th, 2003 10:59:40 AM
Months ago, I took my first tentative steps into the AICN Talkback. I hoped to connect with fans interested in the same entertainment as myself (esp. LotR). Since that time, I've spent my share of time at the Talkback, and have indeed encountered some very cool people I have been honored to interact with. Whenever I feel like getting away from ordinary, everyday routine and want to see what my fellow genre fans are thinking, I come here and go to town. Believe it or not, I've learned much from my experiences here. In my ongoing quest to observe and get feedback from movie lovers everywhere, I have attained enlightenment in the integral dichotomy of the fan mentality, the pros and cons of this particular forum which allows us to voice our opinions. There are pitfalls. I made some rookie mistakes and was sternly rebuffed, but quickly learned with careful phrasing and common sense, you can actually meet nice people who I enjoy hearing from and, in a perfect world, would love to hang out with. But the most important lesson I've learned is to take most everything said here with a HUMONGOUS grain of salt. Because of the anonymity the Talkback provides, apparently quite a few of the fellas who post here are ten feet tall and bullet-proof with Ph.Ds from M.I.T., and some of the ladies are enchanted Faerie princesses or Goth-goddesses (or that's how I like to visualize them!). Statistics to the contrary aside, I have a very real concern that someday I'll get burned-out on the concept. We'll see. In the meantime, as many folks have pointed out, LotR will soon come to an end. Does this mean cats like Grimloch will wink out of existence? I doubt it, but at least they'll have to work a little harder to find excuses to print diatribe about it. And who knows, they might even conduct themselves like decent people.
Other Possible LOTR Directors by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 11:13:38 AM
I
"I think had Speilberg or Cameron emotionally thrown themselves by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 11:16:46 AM
Let's see...Spielberg wanted to make Harry Potter with Haley Joel and set it in America. Don't get me wrong, he could probably make a decent LotR, but it wouldn't be a tenth as faithful as this version. And Cameron? I'm sure he'd nail the action, but hell, he had people talking like present day and giving each other the finger in Titanic. If you hated "nobody tosses a dwarf", just imagine what Cameron would do to the dialogue. It's a tough job. Most "drama" directors wouldn't be able to handle the action, and most action directors would totally botch the drama. And I doubt there are many directors who are familiar and respectful enough with the books to want to remain even remotely faithful to them.
Thanks for echoing my thought, Minderbinder by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 11:24:37 AM
Good to know I'm not the only one. And Hi and Welcome Back to Elanor and Alice!
Directors by hildebrand	Oct 17th, 2003 12:40:26 PM
There is an interesting confluence of needs for this story, and a director would need to have strengths in many areas. Fantasy, War movies, Drama, Quest legends, etc. Get a director to who moves to strongly in one direction and you lose the scope of what Tolkien was attempting with this story. Terry Gilliam would have been an interesting choice, but I think that the 'humanity' of the characters might have been lost. He would have nailed all of the moments of fantasy and horror, and would have done well with Frodo's quest (Gilliam I think does well with that type of tragic-heroic figure), but may not have known what to do with Aragorn. I would agree that Spielberg would have fallen off the wagon regarding sentimentality, and may have dodged some of the necessary bad things that occur. The endings of A.I. and Minority Report were simply cop-outs. Cameron? Nope, I simply do not like the rather set-pieceish way in which he moves through a movie. I wonder if there are some directors of more of the dramatic type of movie that may have done some interesting things with the story, folks like Frank Darrabont (sp?) Franco Zeferelli, heck, just for fun, Martin Scorsese. Just idle thoughts, just a bit of wondering out loud. But I think that looking at the big action type directors would not have been the way to go.
Ridley Scott hasn't directed fantasy? by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 12:48:46 PM
What about LEGEND? Look, this Monday-morning quarterbacking can be fun, but let's face facts. It was pure luck that Jackson succeeded with his pitch on this. With one studio flop, FRIGHTENERS, under his belt, it's astounding that New Line said yes. Who else had tried? Who else cared? That's the point. Spielberg, Lucas, Cameron and Scott could've got this made if they wanted to. These are all men who's work I respect, and would've brought something magic. To damn Spielberg for HOOK, one of, what? Thirty fantastic films? Crazy. It would've been more sentimental, but the _entire_ audience would've been in tears, not just the faithful. (Please don't argue this, it's my observation) Boorman would've knocked it out of the park, visually. Moreso even than Jackson. Look at EXCALIBUR again, compare the early scenes with the battle at the end. It's very similar to the changes that need to go on during the course of LOTR. The idea of one film was misguided and optimistic, but, like Lucas with STAR WARS, there was no guarantee of another chance. I almost feel like the best choice would've been to split the films up. Spielberg for FOTR, John Millius for TTT, and splitting the job on ROTK. Now, the other interesting topic brought up here is that God-awful Sam speech in TTT. What kills me, and I'm _not_ a purist, is that it betrays the character. Sam is a simple person with a huge heart, for him, _it's about his promise._ Nothing larger. That's why the boat scene at the end of FOTR is so wonderful and affecting. _It's true and honest to who Sam is._ That damn speech, alas, is not. It did, however, kill time, helping TTT reach the fan-mandated 3-hour point.
RE: Mikah Kurtz by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 12:58:15 PM

Oh yes, I forgot about "Legend" by mortsleam	Oct 17th, 2003 01:16:39 PM
Tom Cruise tries to save a unicorn and Tim Curry wears a Holloween mask. Still, I never said Ridley Scott was a bad choice...morGoth, I think Mikah was just saying that if one had to film a Sauron/Aragorn confrontation, transposing the Dagor Bradollach smackdown would be a good way to go. Except without the whole good guy dying thing.
Waves to elanor-lass and Alice... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 01:30:25 PM
...greetings ladies, glad to see you found your way back! Of course, the trollers will accuse me of "you-know-what" just for acknowledging your presence. Nopers, I can
mortsleam... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 01:33:11 PM
...ah, I see what you mean and if that's the case, I see what Mikah is saying now. Hey, I never said I was the sharpest chard coal stick in the box! Don't get me wrong, I think it would be astoundingly cool too but I hope it doesn't happen for many reasons. The LA scene was good enuf fer me!
Gilliam, Bakshi, Scott etc... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 02:45:21 PM
Well, morGoth - I know we've been over the Bakshi thing many times - but I think I can rid you of at least ONE reason to hate poor Mr. Bakshi: he has vehemently insisted on several occasions that the false promotion of "Lord Of Th.." was entirely the doing of the studio and that he was angrily opposed it. According to Bakshi, it was this dispute along with others which caused the rift between himself and the studio and prevented Part II from being made. The non-appearance of Part II was not, as is popularly believed, because Part I was a financial failure. Bakshi claims it took $80 million worldwide (with a production budget of $10 million). Boxofficemojo credits it with a US take of $30 million - so I imagine it took at least that much again in the international market - definitely covering its costs. **** I agree 100% that Gilliam should be director of The Hobbit. For proof, I name Exhibit A: Time Bandits. I think Gilliam would definitely have a feel for the material and he is on record as being an admirer of Pj's work on LOTR. The Hobbit is more light-hearted and far less textured than LOTR - and I think the movie version should reflect this - rather than trying to make it as serious as PJ's movies. I don't actually think that PJ himself should direct The Hobbit - not now after doing three LOTR movies. He will definitely be suffering from LOTR burnout and should probably steer clear. *** Ridley Scott has proved with the mediocre LEGEND that he would have been the wrong person to direct LOTR. However, perhaps he would have learned from his mistakes on that film and made a decent LOTR. One thing's for sure: it would have LOOKED really good, but I'm not so sure he would have got the characters right. Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Alan Lee also do the design for LEGEND?
"It was pure luck that Jackson succeeded with his pitch on this. by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 03:27:44 PM
Luck? Sure, some. But I'm sure it didn't hurt that he walked in the door with a completed screenplay and a reel of test FX shots he paid for out of his own pocket.
minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 03:47:04 PM
Are you joking? Have you ever been in a pitch meeting? Oh wait, I forgot where I am...Of course you haven't. What we have here is a basically unknown director from down under, with a respected indie flick, a few gross-out horror movies, and a horror/comedy for a major studio that, to put it generously, under-performed. He wants to undertake one of the most expensive film projects of all time. In a genre that has, historically, been box-office poison. He shows up with this _massive_ script full of a whole bunch of fanboy garbage. Mithril? What the fuck is that? Sauron and Saruman? They're the villians? Christ? Can you change one of the names? They are pretty similar. Yeah, nice footage too. You should kiss the ass of the New Line exec who saw through all of that to the value of the project. In a time when the company was not on the most stable ground, financially. Speilberg walks in with just the concept - BAM! Greenlight. Yeah, I'd call it luck, insane amounts of it.
Many Happy Returns by Pallando Blue	Oct 17th, 2003 03:53:34 PM
I was off doing a bit of travel meself, only to find the site impossible to access to past coupla days. Whizzin like a bullet today, tho! So, I post. And screw the workload (until I'm caught, or around 4:00, whichever comes first)! Howdy all other returners! And file the purists and trolls and whiners under "Everything New Is Old Again." Comforting, in a way. AICN without venting assholes would create an unhealthy build-up of excrement and foul gasses in the real world, is my guess. Whatever keeps em from shooting up the office/gym class, I sez! * The One Big Thing missing from an LOTR by another director would be, IMO, Weta Workshop. Moreso than the incredible advances by Weta Digital, which ILM--had a director pushed them in the correct, dramatic directions--surely has the tech specs and budgets to match. But Richard Taylor's Weta Workshop has raised the bar in practical FX, design, costume, make-up etc. All the Real Stuff that's on film before the computers get ahold of it. The bar just wouldn't be ATTEMPTED to these heights for LOTR by anyone, except perhaps Rick Baker Studios, and then only in the make-up. Let's not underestimate the uniqueness of one house doing ALL the design work, AND construction. Whatever else they may bring to the project, Spielberg, Cameron, Scott, Zemeckis, etc. would have prepoduction going on ALL over the town. Look in the long end credits of their films, I may be wrong but isn't there usually something like Creature Make-Up by [an FX house name, list of its employees], Costumes by [different business, list of its employees], and on and on. Instead, we have it all done under one roof, from Rohirrim helm and shield motifs to 2 or 3 races of orc prosthetics to 2 sizes of proportional Bree tableware. And a completely immersive world because of that. Now, Lucas has the luxury of his own in-house do-everything FX/design factory--he's the OTHER guy on the planet who does--but the physical FX department at ILM has been, well, shoddy, almost lazy going all the way back to ROTJ. I remember being 13, seeing those rubber pig-faced Jabba guards that could barely move, much less wiggle exactly four stiff facial muscles, and thinking, "Man, they didn't try at ALL." Just look at the 5 steps backward the Yoda puppet took in realism from 1981 to 1999. And every other non-digital lifeform--there's LESS detail in the costumes than the pixels (something that pisses me off to no end, and I ENJOY the prequels!). So, ILM doing digital = good; ILM doing latex = not so much. .....Actually, this does all come back around to PJ, whose overriding dictum it was from the beginning to "Make It Real." Who of those directors being mentioned as What Ifs would have strived so hard for verisimilitude over the fantastic? (Who would develop all the height tricks, like moving forced perscpetive, and who would hire Warwick Davis?) Or would the Fantastic have been heightened, being the director's Fantasy Movie, as opposed to a historical drama? Would Scott be in Legend mode as mentioned, or Gladiator? Would Spielberg have been thinking Hook, or Amazing Stories, or Saving Private Ryan? ...And which of them would only have on their composer short list John Williams and Danny Elfman? So, yeah, I think we LOTR fans caught lightning in a bottle with Jackson and Co. No, not flawless, and no, not the same choices I would have made in all places. But damned if we'd have ever have gotten anything better. * Now then, REAL problems. I have my Trilogy Tuesday tix, BUT. My loca theater sold the three movies as separate tickets. Which means there are people who oly purchased the ROTK show, to be sure. And the theater manager, while not having set any policy in stone, has said he suspects they will have to empty the theater between each show. Now... if the folx [coughwho me?cough] who plan on attending the entire trilogy--and some I'm sure [coughwho me?cough] will be putting in some effort in getting good seats from the get-go--aren't allowed to KEEP there seats between shows, but forced to jump back into a frigging LINE to get in... well, there just may be rioting [coughwho me?cough] I suspect. Oh the woes of the LOTR-spoiled! *** 'til Monday, I leave you with this (Alice! DUCK!): Despite Grima comitting high treason / There are some who favor appeasin'. / With a glow in her eyes / The Lady Eowyn sighs, / "He ain't called 'Wormtongue' for no reason!"
Orson, I never said I by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:00:17 PM

Hey MPJedi2... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:12:11 PM
...c'mon man, no need to come off as such a snob. "Oh wait, I forgot where I am..." I can hear the wind whistling through your upturned nostrils. Minderbinder has a good point...Jackson sold the project because he convinced the suits that he COULD do something with an "unfilmable" project based solely on his demonstrated work to date. So much so that the suits said "Three movies!" Saying he's no Speilberg is beside the point...it does prove that PJ sold them solely on the merits of his work. "...script full of a whole bunch of fanboy garbage." Oh no, no display of rank bias there Bucko. Get a clue. Do you consider a built in fanbase of people ranging in ages from children to elderly folk "fanboys(?)" How could they be fanboys for a movie that hadn't even been greenlighted yet? Oh, let me guess, your feet are stuck in the great cliche mass like the other people who spout "virgin basement dwelling multi-sided dice throwers?" If you're such a snob, why do you lower yourself coming to this site and posting?
Oooh, morGoth, don't get me started..... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 04:22:24 PM
I like Bakshi's version despite it's faults. I recently bought it on DVD and like it a lot! I've met several people who have similar opinions. Yeah, I've seen the site you're referring to and enjoyed it a lot - but you could point out just as many unintentionally hilarious things in PJ's LOTR too!
"You should kiss the ass of the New Line exec who saw through al by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 04:31:40 PM
Another thing to consider is PJ's kiwi roots (not to mention WETA, great post Pallando). If a hollywood director had shot this around LA (not to mention doing FX and other post there), it wouldn't have looked nearly as good and probably would have cost double or triple. "Speilberg walks in with just the concept - BAM! Greenlight." If it were really that easy, why hasn't one of these other "big" directors done just that and made these movies already?
Yes Orson... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 04:58:07 PM
...this is just like people arguing over music. Like what you like and hang everybody else's opinion, yes? Personal taste and other factors color our perceptions and bias. You saying "... and like it a lot!" says it all. Likes and dislikes don't mean right or wrong. I'm not trying to start an argument with you so why don't we just say that we have differing opinions of Mr. Bakshi's effort. Yes, I'm completely aware that others like and and I recall some ferocious TB's, particularly, where greenleaf and I went round and round (back in 99', I believe). If you got a bit of a nerve touched on there, then maybe you'll appreciate the other side of the coin when some of us have taken you to task for mocking our liking of TTT and you calling us Jackson sycophants (or wearing Jackson blinders or something like that), etc., yes? Out of consideration for people who love Bakshi's version, or even the Rankin-Bass toons, I'm not going to start ridiculing those efforts in detail. So, let's just let it lie, OK?
Come on here! by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 05:01:15 PM
Did you _read_ what I posted? "Fanboy garbage" _from the perspective of a studio executive!_ Plus, fanboy garbage is fanboy garbage no matter what the source. Movie, book, TV show, doesn't matter. LOTR was alive and well before the movies, and the lore is deep and difficult to the layman. This is not a new concept, nor is it one anyone wants to argue. Why? Because fanboys, of anything, _thrive_ on the idea that they are in a "special club" that understands it all. Be it LOTR, STAR WARS, STAR TREK, BUFFY, what have you. My "upturned nose" if you want to call it that, is at the "upturned nose" of all of the people out there who like to act like they understand how the film busniess works. There's tons of people who like to sit back and talk about how "wrong" everything is, how "terrible" certain directors are. These same people couldn't even turn out a bad episode of CAPTAIN POWER AND THE POWER RANGERS. Look back at my posts, I've never said LOTR was bad, _except the Sam speech in TTT._ Now as to why Spielberg or Lucas never made LOTR, Minderbinder, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO, obviously. Which was pretty much the point of what I said. If they had wanted to, it would've been theirs to do, period. These are some of the most powerful people in Hollywood. They could've gotten the films made, and could've shot them _anywhere in the world_ that they wanted to. NZ is really a moot point, several locations in TTT looked like my Grandparent's ranch in Eastern Colorado. Don't kid yourself that a Studio film _must_ shoot around LA. I'm not trying to bash LOTR here, just point out that Jackson had a _ton_ of luck on his side, because his pre-LOTR film record wasn't labeling him the one to make this.
"If they had wanted to, it would've been theirs to do" by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 05:30:59 PM
Your opinion, I just don't agree with you. Many of the top directors (however you choose to interpret that term) have pet projects that they've been wanting to make for years but can't get done. To bring up an example again, Spielberg wanted to make Harry Potter. Did he get to do it? Nope, since he wasn't willing to compromise on his "vision", he wasn't considered. As for NZ, yes I obviously realize that you CAN shoot outside of LA, but most directors CHOOSE not to. And regardless of how pretty it is up in Colorado, shooting there wouldn't give you the cost savings that NZ would. As for luck, I guess Spielberg and Lucas had tons of it as well when studios let them make Jaws and Star Wars? (their film records before that didn't exactly label them the ones to make those...)
On luck.. by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 06:27:36 PM
Of course Speilberg and Lucas had luck. Anyone who is working in film has oodles of luck. The JAWS comparison is the most relevant. SS had developed a relationship with Zanuck and Brown, who had purchased the film rights to the book. He also had a relationship with the studio, Universal, doing TV and, specifically, DUEL. Which was A) similar and B) successful. STAR WARS is another animal, as, if Lucas hadn't sold it, it wouldn't have been made. Since he created the concept. With LOTR and JAWS, we're looking at pre-developed novels. Anyway, also the key factor in STAR WARS getting picked up by Fox was that Alan Ladd really liked AMERICAN GRAFFITTI, Lucas' first monster hit. Luck was a huge factor, but in both cases it was augmented by either personal relationships (Spielberg) or previous blockbusters (Lucas). Jackson had neither. I'm not trying to trash the guy, what he's done is extraordinary. However, remember, always remember, that studios greenlight films for one reason alone, money. They go with the filmmakers they think can bring home the bacon. That's why there's 3 LOTR films, an exec smelled a hit, and figured he could get 3 big hits instead of 2. Look at KILL BILL, another excellent example of plucking more money out of the fanboy pocket...
Yikes, morGoth - no offence intended.... by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 06:51:23 PM
Nah, I was being tongue-in-cheek, though this is difficult to convey in text without putting smiley faces and whatnots. Nope, I don't go looking for fights anymore - with your good self or anyone else. On a more serious note, I don't recall ever calling people PJ sycophants or other derogatory names - I mean, that would mean I was a PJ sycophant too, because I applaud the superb work he has done on FOTR and parts of TTT. It's completely not my style to attack people personally for their opinions - though I occasionally attack their arguments a bit vigorously. My greatest lapse was just after TTT's release when in my massive disappointment I roared and shouted at poor Elanor who was only trying to be nice. That's something I regret.
"That's why there's 3 LOTR films, an exec smelled a hit, and fig by minderbinder	Oct 17th, 2003 07:08:13 PM
Um, yeah. THAT's why. So why did every other studio say they'd only do it as ONE movie? Nah, couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the New Line guy was a Tolkien geek, it must have been just the money... By the way, I find it really funny that you insist that PJ had done nothing significant (it's not like he had an oscar nomination or anything) while at the same time trying to claim that Speilberg was somehow a hotshot because he made "Duel". Yeah, the logical choice for a hit book is a guy who's made a couple TV movies. (how exactly do you define Duel as "a success" while at the same time writing off everything PJ has done?)
Excellent picture of Frodo and Sam at the crossroads over at TOR by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 07:50:35 PM
They're walking past that headless statue - as per the book. The orcs have put a boulder on the statue's shoulders. No sign of the original head lying around in the frame...******* On another note: ROTK is only two months (TWO MONTHS!) away and looks like it might KNOCK OUR BRAINS RIGHT OUT OF OUR EARS with its spectacular battle scenes and emotionally exhausting resolution. SO, in this short space of time when we still have our wits about us, I invite fellow TBers to NAME THEIR FAVORITE SCENES in the two movies we've seen so far. You can do a top ten, a top three, or just one - whatever you like....but I want you to EXPLAIN what makes these scenes so special to YOU! SO to start off with, here's MY FAVORITE SCENE!!!!!!! ......... ...... ......... ....... ........ ........ ...... ........ ....... ....... ....... ..... NUMBER 1: Gandalf and Bilbo in Bag End after his disappearing act. There are plenty of amazing scenes in FOTR and TTT, with underground dwarf cities, elven flets, orc armies, Oliphaunts, Gollum and what-have-you.....but in the end of the day it's in this little scene in Bag End where, for me, the movie achieves perfection: the writing, direction, acting and pacing are as good as anything in cinema - AND as a bonus, not only is this scene a piece of superbly effective film-making - it is also perfectly true to the book. It takes the scene from the book, nudges it here and there for dramatic effect and totally thrills me every time I see it. Main Points Of Coolness: (1) When Bilbo reappears in Bag End, Gandalf is mysteriously ALREADY THERE! Gives you a shock the first time you see it. Dramatically it works incredibly well because it sets the tone for a tense and disturbing conversation. (2) The low-angle close-up of Bilbo caressing his "precious". We suddenly see this good-humored hobbit-with-a-heart-of-gold in a new light. It's creepy and unsettling. But not nearly as unsettling as when (3) Bilbo goes all feral and nasty and turns on his old friend. (4) Gandalf turns on the "black magic". We realise that Gandalf is not just a kindly old conjuror, but has strange hidden powers! Scary. (5) Beautiful shift in tone: Gandalf comes down to Bilbo's height and with great kindness talks him out of his madness. All now seems well. (6) Eeek! Bilbo still has the ring without realising it! More creepiness etc. (7) Bilbo's titanic struggle to let the ring go. PJ does a great job of dramatising this, with the huge Thunk! as the ring hits the floor.......Well, I could go on about this all day until even Tolkien purists decide that I'm a bit too hard-core. Anyway, I look forward to reading about other people's favorite scenes....
last time minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 07:50:37 PM
DUEL was a success. A _theatrical release_ in europe, where it did very well. Spielberg had also done THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS, produced by JAWS producers Zanuck and Brown, which Pauline Kael called (paraphrase) "the most impressive debut film in years." Jackson had done solid work before LOTR, but nothing to indicate he was up to this. He proved he was. End of tale. His luck allowed his talent to prevail. Question to you; why are you so damn scared to admit that Jackson was basically an unknown quantity before LOTR? That there were other filmmakers who could've got the thing off the ground? What is the deal? I never said anyone could've done it better, only different, and maybe would've had an easier time getting the project off the ground. You keep going over this and over this, why is _your_ ego so wrapped up in Jackson's reputation? I'm sure he doesn't care as long as we all keep buying tickets and feeding his family. Why do you?
Yes, poor, poor elanor by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 07:57:16 PM
...though she is a sturdy Hobbit lass and no mistake; I
One more thing, minderbinder by MPJedi2	Oct 17th, 2003 07:57:59 PM
The exec who greenlit LOTR for New Line? Has said publicly he knew nothing about Tolkein until beginning to talk with Jackson. The smell of money, and the guts to put his company on the line made him OK 3 pictures. Other studios wouldn't take the risk, figuring sequels were always possible if the first did well. I'm not belittling the guy, it took a whole lot of guts. Of course, that leads to another question; why so concerned about the idea that mainstream films are designed to do _one_ thing, take money out of your pocket. Why do studios want Oscars? It bumps up the box office take. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that it is the way it works. You may want to believe that LOTR was made purely for artistic reasons, out of pure love, but _nobody_ puts down $300 million on a "personal film."
Goddamn it: HOSED! by orson	Oct 17th, 2003 07:58:48 PM
And I wrote such a nice post that nobody will ever read! Why do you mock us, Harry Knowles?
Guess I got it all wrong by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 08:10:35 PM

Read your post Orson... by morGoth	Oct 17th, 2003 08:15:40 PM
...great choice of the Bilbo and Gandalf at Bag End scene. Let me think a bit on it and I'll post termorrey. Isil awaits...
SPOILERS for the unread below by Tarin	Oct 17th, 2003 09:19:24 PM
Beaks said the 'apparent' death of a character. The only character in ROTK who appears to die is Frodo, and this is starting to worry me a bit, because in the 20 minutes of footage that some have seen, it's reported that Frodo wakes up to find himself wrapped up in a web and uses the Phial of Galadriel to free himself. What worries me about this is, where does Sam come in, and the orcs, and the Tower of Cirith Ungol? Please don't tell me that Sam thinking that Frodo is dead and taking the ring has been removed from PJ's version! I've already read about how Frodo fights Shelob using Sting and the Phial, so what about Sam? Can anyone put my mind at rest?
Possible answer (spoilers again) by Tarin	Oct 17th, 2003 09:30:57 PM
I've been giving it some thought and have come up with a scenario that might work. Sam and Frodo are attacked by Shelob and are separated, perhaps Sam is even knocked unconscious. We cut away to a scene involving the other characters, then come back to Sam waking up and looking for Frodo. He can't find him. Then we cut to Frodo waking up and finding himself caught in the web. He frees himself and stars running. Shelob appears and chases him. She stings him. Frodo screams. Sam comes running, sees the foul beast starting to drag Frodo away, he snatches up the Phial (and Sting?) and drives her off. Then events can unfold pretty much as they are in the book, with Sam doing what he has to do and the Orcs coming along and Cirith Ungol and etc. It would work, but still seems a little convoluted if you ask me. But I'm just trying to make sense of the report I'm sure we all read which clearly stated that Frodo wakes up to find himself strung up in a web. This is really bothering me. HELP!!!
I tried watching the Bakshi version once.... by Devil'sOwn	Oct 17th, 2003 10:07:05 PM
"Tried" being the operative word. Just couldn't hack it. Yeah, I heard he couldn't catch a break from the studio. Didn't help. It still came off as a psychadelic jerkoff, which I'm not a fan of.* I have a hard time naming favorite scenes, because the are so many I like!* I never expected to see a "what if?" discussion about directors. At the risk of drawing fire from haters who will swear I'm a Jacksonite, I can't imagine anyone else doing these movies. Certainly, I acknowledge it was equal helpings of luck and hard work that made these films see the light of day. Okay, if pressed I would say George "Mad Max" Miller? But then, it would be a whole other strange affair... The only other major directors I could think of are Tim Burton (eek!), and Richard Donner.* I've read the books a few times, but to me, only a change of mind-boggling significance would really alter (and hurt) such a grand epic. The major stuff stays intact. I believe it was Ebonic Plague who said (I'm paraphrasing here) try being a comic book fan and see how badly Hollywood screws up your beloved icons. Word. "Purists" are just trying to damn hard to find flaws. Ofcourse, the other extreme is the trolls who clearly don't know and don't give a damn and roll their eyes back in their heads, drool and say, "It was too long and boring and... gay! Jackson is a hack." I generally steer clear of movies over two hours, but I don't think I'm the only person who wanted these movies to keep going when the big closing music comes on. I'm not an elitist cretin, nor a "fanboy" snob. Just a fella who thoroughly enjoys this series.* Way ta take care 'o business morGoth!! As usual, you make outstanding points. These are strange times to be living in. I swear, I'll never understand the animosity some people come here with. I mean, ultimately if you don't like LotR, it's okay, really. Some folk just aren't into it. Some people I hang out/ work with and have some respect for aren't fans either. Do I curse furiously at them and insult their taste? Hell no. That's just life, I accept it. It doesn't change the fact that this is something I personally derive pleasure from.
Tsk Tsk, Mr. MPJedi2 by elanor	Oct 17th, 2003 11:34:59 PM
I pray you, sir, do not assume that you are the only one on these talkbacks with some knowledge or experience in how films are greenlit ("have you ever been in a pitch meeting?") indeed. I have been in a few myself, I dare say. Perhaps you have been in some, too, but you certainly do not seem to be in full possession of the facts of the Bob Shaye/PJ meeting. First, you are forgetting Mark Ordesky, the "bigger fan boy of LOTR than PJ himself" that my friend Mr. Minderbinder was referring to. (BTW, if you review the series of posts between you and Minderbinder, you will see that he maintains his manners and his cool head throughout while you twist in your knickers.) But back to Mr. Ordesky. It is he who had a personal relationship with PJ, a fairly lengthy one. He, at PJ
Cutestofborg, LordZanthos, Tarin and Orson by elanor	Oct 18th, 2003 12:07:09 AM
CoB-I am so glad you checked in! I don't know how I neglected you; I really love your handle -Pallando, can I say that?- and have no prejudice against Star Trek at all. Welcome back.* LordZanthos, I will sign your petition since I'd love to see it have an effect, however to you also I say rest assured that we will indeed have more opportunities to see all three movies back to back. It just SCREAMS out money and Studios love money. I hope to have the choice in the future of theatrical marathon or extended marathon. All signs are that there will be an extended version of ROTK, no matter how long the theatrical ends up being, so, there will be future incentive galore.Tarin, I think you answered your own question. I would only add that I am not worried one whit although I am very curious as to how PJ will handle the Choices of Master Samwise.**Orson - you needn't worry any longer, it seems your Smeagol has won over your Gollum. But I am touched at your last admission. Thanks, and do not let your heart be troubled on my account. Now, to a point in one of your posts - about a longer period between films, I hear ya and I agree that if PJ, Fran and Phillipa had had a mite longer between greenlight and the first day of filming, the screenplay of T2T might have had a chance to breathe and settle. BUT, having, say a year and a half between films would also have meant that the entire shoot would have been longer and that may have lessened the chance they had in the beginning to get the terrific actors they got. Not a few folks turned them down due to the long committment. These days, it is very rare for an actor to spend more than two months on a shoot (except for Stepford Wives or Troy) and in most cases with the one-film-out-each-year schedule the actors had to commit to between 9 and 18 months, and way way far away, too, in jolly old NZ, where even if you get an unexpected week off, it would hardly be worth it to fly home. Anyway, I am glad to read that you are psyched again for ROTK. Here's hoping you will love it as much as Fellowship. And BTW, I'm right there with ya on the post-party Gandalf/Bilbo scene. Gorgeous, and ingenious, a textbook case of adaptation/condensation without forfeiting a jot of theme, character or mood. My all time favorite moment of that scene is Ian Holm's reaction to Ian McKellen's ever so slightly sinister reading of "The Ring is still in your pocket". So much Bilbo is in his glance: regret, embarassment, stubborness, fear, I think I see him considering becomming invisible to escape. Yes, the bar was set high with Fellowship.
all exciting news about RotK by mayaV	Oct 18th, 2003 02:24:35 AM
I'm still having some computer troubles and hope this post finds its way. I have to admit, I read about this 20 minutes at CHUD first. But I went through hell when I couldn't come to AICN for TB. Goddamnd machines! * Can anyone of you imagine, why they show 20 minutes to the press and we have to starve with nothing but written description and a little trailer? Hey, I need more! I'll start to re-read the book within the next weeks, so I have something to feed my heart! * Nice TB here. You got rid of creepy+grimmy! Finally evolution made it up to them and zivilisation broke through.
I wanted to add by mayaV	Oct 18th, 2003 02:45:27 AM
Concerning the death of a character. Theoden is going to die. He's killed in battle! He's the only one I can think of, * I guess that PJ will stick closely to Tolkien with Frodo being poisioned by Shelob and Sam thinking he's dead. This might become one of the most intense scenes in Rotk. I see myself stunned in the seat, half crying half hoping. This could be the moment, by that LotR hardcore-fans will judge PJ. We already know, he can do astonishing battle-scenes but can he handle this? To make averyone belive - even those who know the end - Frodo has passed and it's all lying in Sams hands?
Are you guys still here? by greenleaf	Oct 18th, 2003 03:29:35 AM
Jeeezus! It seems like ages ago. Hi! *** I still visit AICN often, even though I almost never read the LotR news. My interest for Peter Jackson's work has... waned, to put it mildly, since the release of TTT. Reading your comments on the film in this TB, I feel like a large gap has opened between you, and myself, over the years. A Grand Canyon type of gap. Was I a purist? I don't think so. Yet I feel that these movies, especially TTT, and I'm sure you can appreciate the meaning of this last nuance, represent nothing that LotR was to me. You can't say it's a complete travesty in the Hollywoodian sense; it's produced by Hollywood but PJ&Co are a quirky bunch and their films don't quite espouse the aforementioned model - PJ also has his cinematic roots in a particular type of genre film. Yet in TTT, while each character still bears its own name and title, is dressed properly, sans helmet with horns and shaggy beard, and that's about it. Their motivations are totally different from the original tale, changed around in a seemingly random and meaningless fashion, except when it's about Liv getting a bit more screentime. To name a few: Th
Dufusyte's prognostications vindicated on schedule by DufusyteII	Oct 18th, 2003 03:30:17 AM
Alternate director: I'd vote for Ridley Scott - for Fellowship he would capture the tense horror movie elements like in his classic horror movie Alien (one of the scariest ever - imagine black riders in place of the alien), then for the action packed sword chopping TTT and ROTK Ridley would do it in Gladiator style - remember opening scene where the Roman Legion battles the barbarians CLASSIC! or the chariot scene where Crowe and his band spin the colloseum's historical reenactment exponentially out of control. The thing with Ridley is that his characters have more personality. Look at Commodus - classic! Look at Ripley - the audience identifies with her and when the alien corners her in the escape pod, we feel like we are the ones battling for our life (because we identify with Ripley). By contrast, PJ's characters are a bit flat like Lucas'. The audience watches the characters, but does not really identify with them, and hence we are unconcerned with their fate. The visuals are meaningless if we do not care about the characters. I said this about FOTR, and it did not get better in TTT. As an audience member, the only character I personally care about is Arwen - Liv's performance has been very moving and sincere, and I feel for her character's vulnerability and the tragic destiny that was so beautifully foreshadowed in TTT (best part of TTT), and which seems destined to engulf her, even in the best of cases Aragorn will die and she will suffer an interminable widowhood until she tastes the bitter kiss of death, which will mercifully release her from a world that no longer holds interest for her since her beloved has left the land of the living. One really gets the sense that Arwen has no interest in the world nor in living immortally in the world; the only thing that she lives for is her beloved. Apart from him, she finds no point in living, and it is a grace for her that death will set her free from a world without Aragorn. ******* Speaking of Aragorn, I still hold to my original assessment that Viggo has villain written all over his face, and although Viggo can do a passable Strider who is scraggly and shady (quasi-villainous), he cannot clean up to do a noble King in the third film. We are now at the third film, and Viggo still looks like a villain, as in the current ROTK poster where he looks like some creepy villainous Rasputin: see poster: http://www.elbakin.com/film/ph otos/imgnews/rotkteaser_poster .jpg DUFUSYTE PREDICTED THIS!
Grammatical errors / nonsensical sentences by greenleaf	Oct 18th, 2003 03:37:10 AM
I am sorry. It's that stupid English language again.
Sabster by Sabster	Oct 18th, 2003 06:51:59 AM
I
Sabster by Sabster	Oct 18th, 2003 07:00:21 AM
I
Elanor. Borg. Maya. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:19:13 AM
Just wanted to say, Wow. I'm not sure how a debate about how a movie gets made comes about, but elanor, that was great. I was impressed with your knowledge and composure. That's what I call classs. I'm sure a lot of us out here wish more producers were as open-minded as Mr. Shaye. And more directors had the GUTS to stick to their visions like Peter Jackson.* morGoth, I summon thee! Where are ya?* It is an uneasy alliance we have with technology, maya. A couple days ago, at another talkback, I had this post that was sweet and damn funny. And it was LOST. (sigh.) That'll take the wind outta yer sails. I'm plannin' on rereading the trilogy soon, too. It's been years! Incidently, I'm sure this has been asked before, but are there any other fantasy series you would recommend? I'm aware there's other stuff, but before I plunk down cash for it, I'd like to hear what readers who know have to say. Yup, the viral infection that is CreepyThingy and the pulsating hemorrhoid that is Grimwhatsit have cleared up for the moment. Everyday, I pray for peace. But when the time comes to be TESTED, I will be ready.
Hiya. by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:31:25 AM
elanor, brilliant job of making your point! It is an uneasy alliance we have with technology, maya. I just had a sweet and damn funny post, and it was lost! (sigh.) That'll take the wind outta your sails. Yup, that nasty case of Creepythingy and Grimwhatsis has cleared up for the moment. We can only pray it stays that way. morGoth! I summon thee!!! Where are ya?
YER AHT OF ORDAH! by Devil'sOwn	Oct 18th, 2003 09:37:18 AM
GAWDDAMMIT! I hate when th' talkback gets jacked up!!
Sorry T2T didn't work for you, greenie by Miami Mofo	Oct 18th, 2003 10:53:46 AM
Of your five "major" complaints, Theoden, Treebeard, Faramir, Gollum and Aragorn, Treebeard is the only one I can agree with. I hate the "Tricking of Treebeard." Everything else works for me. ***Ready for a BOLD prediction: I won't say that the Yankees will get their butts kicked, for, as everyone knows, Fish have no feet. What the Fighting Fish will do however, is poke the Yanks in the eye with their bill over and over and over. Marlins in five.
mpjedi: "why are you so damn scared to admit that Jackson was b by minderbinder	Oct 18th, 2003 10:58:24 AM
Sure, Jackson didn't have a big hit, he wasn't a household name. But that doesn't mean that his getting the gig was just because of luck. He did have an oscar nomination, a film that didn't do well at the box office but had great production values and plenty of top notch FX for a TINY budget, and a thirty five minute demo made specifically to pitch LotR. And big projects being given to filmmakers without big hits isn't unheard of. Look at Jaws (we're supposed to be impressed by a "successful" movie that only got a european release and was only shown on TV in the US?). Look at the Matrix. Look at Spidey, Raimi had a very similar track record to PJ. Look at Cuaron getting the Harry Potter gig. Fincher on Alien3. As you have admitted, EVERY person getting a gig in hollywood requires lots of luck. And you're wrong as well about the New Line pitch: "Mark Ordesky, the president of Fine Line Pictures, New Line's specialty film division, was a longtime Tolkien fan and early proponent of the project." (Ordesky had been a longtime friend of PJ) No personal agenda here, just want to see you get your facts straight.
eleanor by MPJedi2	Oct 18th, 2003 12:35:36 PM
Well, what I can certainly assume is that you have all the personality quirks of another fanboy/girl so wrapped up in the love of LOTR to lose sight of the fact that these are _just movies._ "But take care, sir, to temper your abrupt dismissal of this amazing moment in movie history as mere "luck". Peter Jackson is a unique commodity. He is not of Hollywood." Great, yeah, sure. Lucas lives outside of Hollywood too, making movies on his _own dime,_ no less. Even Jackson can't say that, he dependant on _Hollywood money._ (Not making any sort of _quality_ comparison!) They're big movies that made a lot of money! In historical perspective, the public will always lump them in with other blockbuster series, STAR WARS, THE MATRIX, SPIDER-MAN. There is very little _new_ here. It's done exceedingly well, granted, but let's not lose perspective because it's a fan-favorite book. Also, if PJ was "not of Hollywood," he sure as hell is now, if he likes it or not. What's really funny is that despite my getting my "knickers in a twist," _you're_ the one who _started_ hurling personal insults because I don't worship at the shrine of Saint Peter. You can write all the e-mails an letters you want "thanking" these people, but in the end, you'll find out, just like the STAR WARS and STAR TREK fans, it's all about your money. Thanks for taking this out of the realm of a spirited discussion about the film, and making it personal. I'm certain Saint Peter is reading, and will send a little "thank you" E-mail.
Wherever there is mystery and the unexplained, cosmic forces sha by Seepgood	Oct 18th, 2003 02:24:16 PM
Limericks have much the same effect. **** Favourite scenes - well here's a top five in purely chronological order that suits how I feel today:- 1. Gandalf and Bilbo. Entirely in agreement with Orson here. If possible I'd like to cheat and fit in the previous scene with the two of them - genuine warmth and a spot of gentle physical comedy whose light touch is a world away from dwarf-tossing jokes, undercut by a subtly conveyed sense of gnawing doubt and worry beneath the friendly greetings. "You haven't aged a day..." I find it hard to believe that even the purest purist could have watched those two scenes for the first time and not felt hopeful about the outcome of this adaptation, whatever they ultimately felt about what came after. 2. The Rider on the road. One scene (arguably the only one) that portrays the Nazgul to perfection. The abrupt shift in ambience from the knockabout encounter with Merry and Pippin, the overlap between their continued giggly high spirits and the menacing presence of the Rider, the use of sound in the first foreboding of it's approach or the squelch of a steel-clad foot, the use of angles as the cowled figure leans over so very nearly far enough, the worms and beetles hurrying to escape...it all encapsulates how utterly wrong it is to find this horror here, in the carefree parochial sleepiness of the Shire. 3. "Such a little thing". The very best of PJ's detours from the text. The glistening snow, the close-up on the Ring, the look of dreamy bafflement that says everyting about the way its blandishments can make the wise seem perverse and vice versa. Frodo's fear, Aragorn's stern watchfulness, Boromir's unconvincing nonchalance. The hand on the hilt. Perfection. 4. The Bridge of Khazad-Dum (and aftermath). While I'm not hugely enamoured of the alterations to the build-up for this, the final confrontation was one place where PJ had the nous to recognise that the original was unimprovable and called it straight from the page, while WETA and Ian McKellen did him proud. (Of the things which it is possible to get right on screen (ie not including Elves) the Balrog was probably the thing which I was most doubtful would be pulled off visually. The somewhat more revealing images of it in TTT are rather too specific, but here it's got just the right combination of sheer physical mass and ambiguity as to detail. Where Audeh gets his "cartoon peril" slights from I don't know.) If the same approach is taken to the demise of the Witch-king we're in for a treat. As for the silent heartbreak that follows...well, a lot has been said here about that. Let's just say I'm after you with the tissues. 5. Boromir's last stand. I could talk about the camera work or the use of sound, I could defend against grouchings about slow-mo action sequences. But really, my inclusion of this one is just a literally visceral reaction. Gut-wrench overload. **** Looking back over those I'm seeing plenty of Gandalf and Boromir (which probably says something about where casting went completely right) and no TTT (which says something about quite a few other things). The contrast between the first three and the last two also brings something home to me which I hadn't quite recognised before, which is how fundamental unease is to the mood of Fellowship (book and film, but especially book), and how it fits into the process of emerging into the wider world. I read once that horror is about the familiar becoming unfamiliar, and that seems to be something that distinguishes the early part of the book, where the hobbits are first on familiar ground and then in a way the passengers of their more experienced and capable guides. It's that sense of something nasty lurking just beneath the harmless-looking surface, the glimpse of a shadow in the corner of your eye, the sudden jolting realisation that it's later than you think and the city gate is swinging in the breeze. That tone of oppressive not-quite-rightness teetering on the edge of panic is set by the malign presence of the Ring amidst the jollity of Bag End and the amiable personality of Bilbo and runs t

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