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Leni Riefenstahl - a filmmaking artist - passes away at 101...

FIRST! by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Sh	Sep 9th, 2003 10:50:25 AM
First!
Good riddance, Nazi hag by bizarromark	Sep 9th, 2003 10:53:54 AM
Too bad nothing she did ever made up for making "Triumph of the Will". She's an enduring symbol of the naive tools within the creative community who are easily manipulated by utopian visions and idealistic zeal.
Yeah, shame about the whole Nazi thing. by rev_skarekroe	Sep 9th, 2003 10:55:47 AM
Funny how doing a custom movie for one of the most unobjectively evil tyrannical regimes the world has ever known taints a filmography, huh? sk
So this means no "Triumph of the Will II"? by Yogurt	Sep 9th, 2003 11:07:44 AM
Remember Harry's eulogy for Goebbels? Touching stuff.
The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. by Longfellow	Sep 9th, 2003 11:10:21 AM
Yes, she had a great sense of aesthetics, as did many of the National Socialists' collaborators, but that doesn't excuse the politics behind it all. Yes, we could get into a discussion about the whole Eisenstein / Communism thing, but let's not. This bint didn't have even a tenth of Eisenstein's talent, so let's let her rot quietly in hell, remembered purely for being a mildly gifted propagandist, which is all she was.
A master of the shadow. by Dataset	Sep 9th, 2003 11:19:03 AM
The brilliance of her black and white bauhaus style photography made her noir-documentaries objacts of beauty. Nazis were primarily jocks, distrusting the beautiful woman in their midst. Yet Hitler, the master marketer saw genius in her. Just as his triumph of the will allowed him, a very sickly, small man, to harness the power of the teutonic rednecks, her triumph was making an eerily beautiful film despite the knowledge of being used. She will be missed by lovers of black and white film who know better than to label her as a Nazi and disregard her importance to a media that continues to this day. We live in a world where the tides have turned. The US supports apartheid in Israel yet condemned it in South Africa. And they sold it to us using the same marketing that Hitler used. All the same, 8-18 Leni. 14
What a happy day! by Nareed	Sep 9th, 2003 11:21:59 AM
We were due to have something good to celebrate in September, weren't we? It's times like this when I wish I believed in Hell.
Ms. Riefenstahl was a true artist by B. Lake Austin	Sep 9th, 2003 11:29:59 AM
As a student of film and as an admireer of art, Triumph of the Will may have been propaganda for some but it's a film that classes of 200-400 students watch each year in filmschools. It may have ment something to the Nazi supporters, it was a totally different 'will' that Ms. Riefenstahl put into her masterwork as an example of perfect cinematography, capturing the power of the human will as it could be swayed by one man and historically provided the rest of the world at the time with a stark and frightening image of what was happening in Germany. It was the films ability to bring frankly beautifully compossed and shot images of a Nazi rally that made her a renowned artist. To saqy Ms. Riefenstahl was a Nazi simply because she filmed the 'Triumph of the Will' is to say that the photographers that captured images of people video-recording the fall of the twin towers on 9/11 are terrorists. Ms. Riefenstahl spent the rest of her life apoligizing for her limited, forced and somewhat historically skewed involvment in the Nazi scheme and as any true artist loved life in all its forms. It isn't characteristic for a Nazi to spend almost half his or her lifetime among the deasert tribes of Africa. I am deeply sadened by the irreverence towards Ms. Riefenstahl as shown in the above posts. I agree that the Nazis perpitrated incomprehndably evil things, but what about the civilian population of Germany at the time or their children? Nothing is black and white when condeming a whole people for such a crime against humanity.
Art level by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 11:37:49 AM
If the works of Riefenstahl (and, for that matter, Sergei Eisenstein and D.W. Griffiths) remain works of high art despite the questionable ideals of their creators, it is worth asking if there is a point at which the movie rises above its own politics or the foibles of its makers. There is no arguing that Triumph of the Will, Battleship Potempkin or Birth of a Nation promote some of the most unpleasant beliefs humanity has managed to generate, but no one can sensibly argue that they are not great films. Compare this with say, Victor Salva, whose more personal filmmaking predilections have already been well-discussed on this site. He has undoubtedly personally done some rather more unpleasant things than Riefenstahl et al, and his movies are nothing special from what I have heard, and there has quite rightly been some heated debate about whether people should keep giving a pederast money to make movies. If Salva made better movies, would there be less debate about whether or not he should be allowed to keep doing so? Obvious parallels here with Polanski, who is also supposed to have done some pretty unpleasant things, but also makes better movies than Salva. So, returning to the question
Ahh, here come the apologists.... by bizarromark	Sep 9th, 2003 11:42:46 AM
"Questionable ideals"? How about "completely evil ideals"? Is that in your U.N.-approved lexicon?
Say hello to Hitlar! by flint1976	Sep 9th, 2003 11:43:05 AM
It's stupid to memorialize someone like this who was heavily connected with the Nazi party. Hitlar was an artist too before he went on the path of destruction that almost destroyed the world. Should we honoraly mention his work too?
Fritz Lang did what she should have done, alas. by Andy Travis	Sep 9th, 2003 11:43:10 AM
The word "Nazi" is being thrown about pretty wildly...Field Marshall Rommel, for instance, never belonged to the Nazi Party. He was a German officer (a damn good one, too). I don't know if Leni R was a member of the party, I just know she was a naive, misguided though gifted, artist. Many many artists fled Germany at the time (Fritz Lang, when notified that Hitler was interested in having him do some propaganda film work for the Fuhrer, promptly snuck out of Germany, wisely). She should have done the same. Too bad.
Regarding Hitler and his art. by Andy Travis	Sep 9th, 2003 11:44:55 AM
Hitler's paintings sucked balls. Leni R. had talent. That's the difference.
Fools. by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 11:46:14 AM
Nothing worse than geeks who can't separate the artist from the art. Riefenstahl was indeed one of the most brilliant filmmakers of all time, but why must one therefore see fit to glorify the artist as a person? Somehow projecting your own values onto the persona of an artist whose wortk you've taken a fancy to truly is about as insecure as you can get. Riefenstahl was questioned time and time again over the years about her collaboration with the Nazis (among other things using gypsy children in a documentary which she, according to loads of witnesses, knew were going to be exterminated after the film), and never once showed any kind of remorse or sadness or an admission of -- at the very least -- bad judgment. She was unrepentant to the very end. She's roasting in hell now along with Fritz Hippler. Good riddance. I thought you, Harry, of all people would know better.
Irrelevance by Weevil Kneivel	Sep 9th, 2003 11:46:55 AM
Maybe she was a slavish nazi acolyte(she was) and maybe she spent the rest of her days in a desperate, Speer-ish quest for absolution (she did) This has no bearing on the magnificence of her work.
Ah, Cannibal Nun you old sweetheart by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 11:53:17 AM
A talkback's never dull when you're around.
"She didn't have to produce Triumph of the Will"? by RenoNevada2000	Sep 9th, 2003 11:53:36 AM
`Cuz we all know how much freedom they enjoyed back in the time of the Third Reich.
yeah, she was great director... by croco	Sep 9th, 2003 11:55:05 AM
to all the people who blame riefenstahl.. what would you do in such a situation? i don't sypathise with her and she has done wrong things, but she was a great director
Naive... by CeeWulf	Sep 9th, 2003 11:55:16 AM
Is Leni Riefenstahl someone that deserved to be villified? Probably not. She was a beautiful artist. However, she was a victim of her own ignorance. I see several people here proclaiming how she tried repeatedly to apologize for her role with the Nazi party - "Triumph of the Wills" was not her only propaganda film for them. However, I've never heard that story. As I always understood it, she never apologized for anything, because she never believed she had done anything wrong. She felt that she had simply created a film, and as a filmmaker was detached from the subject or any political cause. It was simply an assignment for her, and she set out to make it as good as she could. She repeatedly denied having any affiliation with the party, outside of the films she made for them. It's the height of ignorance. She also denied having any knowledge of what the Nazi party was about or wanted to do, even though it was always well known and not a mystery that they believed the Jews were to blame for all that had gone wrong with Germany and that they were a super race who would inherit and rule the world. I respect her talent, but I could never respect the woman.
Not a member of the Nazi party by Human Tornado	Sep 9th, 2003 11:58:42 AM
Leni was never a member of the nazi party - one of the reasons she was never brought to judgement in, say, Nuremberg. I'll have to give it to the guy who offered the 9/11 videos analogy, and the one who mentioned Rommel. Saying that every german public official was a Nazi is almost as bad as saying every jew is a greedy sumbitch. And being a black man myself, I'm proud to see our race so well hung - I mean, represented - in Leni's beutiful pictures.
pig by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 12:03:23 PM
Oh, one more thing. Anathema1973 -- you don't think I know what your 8-18 means, you nazi-sympathizing scumbag?
She may never have been a member of the Nazi party... by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 12:06:31 PM
...but to suggest that she was completely unaware of the nasty aspects of National Socialism when she made Triumph of the Will cannot make sense. For a start, Krystalnacht had already taken place when she made the movie, and the fundamental foreign policy of Nazi Germany was to invade other countries. There was no disguising it: indeed, the Nazis loudly announced from the moment they seized power. So, if, as she says, she had no idea the Nazis were so bad when she made the film, she would not have thought she had anything to fear if she refused to do it. She must have supported the Nazis, even if she was not a party member, and you can't even draw the parallell with Rommel, as he was just a soldier doing what his government told him, which is what soldiers are supposed to do. I've got to agree with the fellow above who drew the link with Albert Speer.
It's very easy to condemn by Lobanhaki	Sep 9th, 2003 12:09:27 PM
Whether or not she took the Nazi principles to heart, she has been more than sufficiently punished at this point. If she did take the principles to heart, she has been forced to eat her words in public for over half a century, a great humiliation if she truly believed. If she took them to heart and repented later, or was just carried away by the social force of the movement, then she's already paid dearly. Every time somebody says, oh, she was a great artist, they'll have to say, too bad she worked for the Nazis. Can any of you inflict a worse punishment, or a more severe criticism?
The Unforgiven Leni by Gaspargh	Sep 9th, 2003 12:09:55 PM
It is a shame that some people still asociate Leni with nazis. She was not responsable for the holocaust, and her work is an example of talent, passion and most of all, of love for cinema. Don't forget guys that Leni went to jail not for her beliefs, but for her "links" with Adolf (S.O.B) Hitler regime, the same who invented the rumors that she was the lover of that psycho. Why do we have to confuse history with art? How long will some people enjoy distroying the artistic legacy of people like Leni, Einsenstein, Griffith, with sexual or political points of view?
It's patently obvious why she documented the Sudanese by TheHumungus	Sep 9th, 2003 12:10:24 PM
...And it wasn't to exploit some obvious race-superiority crap... ...clearly she wanted a piece of those abnormally large penises those guys have.
What does 8-18 mean? by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 12:11:07 PM

Propaganda and advertising by Human Tornado	Sep 9th, 2003 12:14:07 PM
My point is: does the crew that produce "cheese-in-a-can" campaign necessarily LIKE cheese-in-a-can, or ever ATE that crap? No! And isn's american foreign policy to invade other countries, promote western values, stimulate clanic wars, ethnic rage, and steal their natural resources?
They may not like cheese in a can... by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 12:22:37 PM
...but they should expect to come in for a bit of criticism if Cheese-in-a-can later turns out to be made of strychnine and rat poo. And whilst all you say about America's foreign policy may be true, America's government at least has the sense to lie about it, so its advertising execs could rather more plausibly deny ignorance of it than Riefenstahl.
"Tell me, Petronius, do you regret the burning of Troy?" by FluffyUnbound	Sep 9th, 2003 12:23:57 PM
"Certainly not. I set more store upon an Iliad, than I do upon some dreadful little town." Unfortunately, Nero was right. In 1000 years it is likely that someone will say, "Damn, I'm glad there were Nazis, because if there weren't we would have to archaic print of 'A Bridge Too Far'." The art of the Twentieth Century will live longer than its horror, human nature being what it is. So we can get as mad at Leni as we want. Ultimately she is important only if her work survives. If it does, she wins. If it doesn't, she loses.
so. anyone seen anything good on TV recently? by Weevil Kneivel	Sep 9th, 2003 12:35:07 PM

Riefenstahl made propaganda for the evil Hitler, Eisenstein made by Shanghai Nicky	Sep 9th, 2003 12:37:26 PM

It's interesting to note the Blanket hatred around here for this by Massawyrm 1	Sep 9th, 2003 12:39:58 PM
Especially since the film in question that everyone's tearing asunder was made in 1934. Think about that for a moment. 1934. The world had yet to come to hate Hitler and the now infamous nazi party. Hell, just the other day I came across a 1938 Better Homes and Gardens spread about a weekend spent in Hitlers 'now infamous' mountain retreat. There are pictures of Hitler sunning himself next to his dog, chatting with friends on the lawn, enjoying a pieceful weekend. From our vantage point 1934 is but a hop skip and a jump away from 1939...but 5 years is a long time. In 1934 the Nazi's had yet to do anything really. They hadn't killed anyone (publically), they weren't preaching extermination, they were rallying the country into a Patriotic fervor under the idea that Germany was the very best country in the world and it simply had to rise from the ashes that it had been left in to prove it once again. It seems frightening in retrospect, but when you look at that early era with a bit of perspective, especially in this day and age, you see a country that absolutely mirrors American today. Germany was still reeling from the Reichstag fire of 1933, a fire that was possibly secretly set by high ranking Nazi officials but was blamed as the work of, now brace yourselves, "terrorists". The powers that be immediately began to erode the rights of the citizens and the citizens cheered for more. Hitler himself called it a sign from God and the people gave up their rights for their own protection. No one at the time REALLY knew what was going on, or what exactly was eventually going to happen. And it was in this, an era of fear and Nationalism, that Triumph of the Will was made. It was an amazingly Patriotic film that has truly chilling ramifications now. I mean, there's nothing more frightening than a country whipped up into a fervor, invading other countries because they feel it is their right to while eroding the rights of it's citizenry. And all the while, the crowd cheers on. You can't hate someone simply because they were caught up in the moment. You can only feel sorrow and hope that they find repentance. Leni never killed anyone, she was a patriot. And she was misguided. She made a work of art and later repented and lived a life that espused nothing like the ideals of the Nazi party. Just keep in mind that Ain't it Cool is about ART...not the ARTIST. You don't read posts here about who's dating who, who's funcking what or the personal politics of anyone (except maybe Harry). That Harry wrote about her ART, well, it's what Harry does. Hating based upon limited information...well that's what talkbackers are for. So decry Nazi Hag all you want guys. Don't forget to pick up your flags and put on your Toby Kieth album before you walk out the door, either.
The purpose of "Triumph of the Will" was to generate more Nazis. by Mosquito March	Sep 9th, 2003 12:42:21 PM
And, I don't believe for a second that she didn't have a clue what was happening. If you've ever been on a film set, people talk. Rumors fly. Sites like AICN exist because people can't keep their mouths shut. So, even if Hitler hadn't told her what he was up to, she would have found out just from hanging around so many goddamn NAZIS. Was she a great filmmaker? Yes. Was she a Nazi? Look what she did - how could she not be?
Massawyrm 1: Very nice. You harangue us with a diatribe about ho by Mosquito March	Sep 9th, 2003 12:45:22 PM
Hypocrite.
Massawyrm by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 12:47:13 PM
Three things. One, Harry wasn't only praising her art. Two, Riefenstahl NEVER repented. Three, what historically revisionist theory grants Riefenstahl immunity from the good sense and perception of Nazi Germany that Fritz Lang and Marlene Dietrich had? By that reasoning, Lang's and Dietrich's denouncement and leaving of Germany isn't that admirable after all, since it didn't make them better people than Riefenstahl for doing so.
Heh heh...yup by Massawyrm 1	Sep 9th, 2003 12:49:11 PM
It was meant to be ironic...sorry for the miscommunication
Proof by greg39	Sep 9th, 2003 12:50:02 PM
Finally, proof that the liberal mind is a diseased cesspool. You disgust me Harry. Fuck Aint it Cool, I am gone, I hope you , Hitler, and all the rest of the Nazis and diseased ridden liberals burn in hell.
Ancient Lights... by SandBag	Sep 9th, 2003 12:54:26 PM
A Jew is a religious definitation of who you are. If you do not believe in Judaism as you clearly don't then you are a decendant of Jews, but not one yourself. You made some good points though... I'm just supprised the Israelis hadn't knocked her off a long time ago.
mmmhhhh...you`re right harry by drjones	Sep 9th, 2003 12:55:17 PM
but on the other hand it was just WRONG that she did that prpaganda film and there are no excuses for it. flint1976!! you can`t compare hitler as an artist and leni riefenstahl. a) hitler wasn`t really such a talented artist. b) you can`t -because of the fact that leni riefenstahl supported hitler- disregard her ARTISTIC "achievements". here in germany there are thousands of those "hitler`s women", "hitler`s dogs", "hitler`s children", "hitler`s pictures", "hitler`s houses" etc etc.(i`m a bit overstating it but so do these series) and i think they had a show feautering leni riefenstahl. though i was too annoyed by those hyperbolized hitler-shows to watch it. though i think i`ve seen a mountain flick from her with luis trenker...pretty cool
greg39 by mtoast	Sep 9th, 2003 01:01:08 PM
Um, greg -- the Nazis were RIGHT wing. I know they used the word "socialist" in their name -- but they were actually something called "Fascists." Still, I'm sure you enjoyed the chance to bandy about that meaningless epithet "liberal" as you guys so love to do. Best to you and your family.
Nazi Stooge. by numberface	Sep 9th, 2003 01:01:19 PM
Hope it's hot.
greg39: Give us a break. Liberalism has nothing to do with this. by Mosquito March	Sep 9th, 2003 01:06:25 PM

separating artist from art by boohallsmalls	Sep 9th, 2003 01:11:13 PM
anyone who thinks that you can separate an artist from his or her art needs to go back and read aristotle's poetics again (or for the first time as the case may be). It is the basis for ALL artistic theory the world over, including dramatic theory. every film, tv show, or play you have ever seen operates at its core based in aristotle's principles. artists and there art cannot be disconnected. any "artist" who can remove themselves emotionally, politically or idealogically from their art, isn't making art. no matter how technically competent it is. I've never seen "triumph of will" but either she believed in its message or she didn't. if she did, Im sorry she lived as long as she did, while great artists are dying young all too often. If she didn't, then the film wasn't art, it was a lie, and that cannot be art. only truth can be art. pick up a copy of the poetics.
A page for someone who worked for Nazis but NOT for WARREN ZEVON by Portnoy	Sep 9th, 2003 01:17:00 PM
What the fuck? Warren Zevon was a legend. This bitch was Hitler's favorite movie maker. I say again WHAT THE FUCK?
Yes, she really DID have to make it by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 01:20:36 PM
I'm a Jew, I hate all things Nazi, but what choice did she have but to make Triumph? It was either make the film or die. What would you do? And don't try to tell me that wasn't the ultimatum, because we all know about Hitler's coercions and I truly doubt he made her the exception...
greg39 by PumpyMcAss	Sep 9th, 2003 01:23:32 PM
History lesson: Nazis were fascists, not communists. Go read a book. Maybe it will teach you not to judge people without knowing all the facts.
Sparklecopy artists are not dicks! they're people. by boohallsmalls	Sep 9th, 2003 01:24:59 PM
katherine hepburn spent more of her leife helping the less fortunate, than making movies. Robin Williams beat alcohol and cocaine addiction to become a good father and husband. for fuck sake, Paul Newman spends most of him times these days running a company that makes popcorn and salad dressing, for which he doesn't make a fucking dime, but DOES gives it ALL the money to charity. Speilberg didn't exploit kids, the parents of the kids who took their kids paychecks did. And as far as tarantino, there is nothing wrong with the word fuck. there are plenty of people who aren't artist, in fact Im sure most of the druggies, rapists, murderers and exploiters are not artists. they're politicians.
boohallsmalls... by SandBag	Sep 9th, 2003 01:40:45 PM
Art is not defined as truth. (http://dictionary.reference.c om/search?q=art) Your post didn't make sense. You seem to think that if she believed in the subject of her film, its art, but if she dosn't then its a lie. An artist can make an art peice on any subject, wither he/she believes in it or not. i.e. Do you call Steven Speilberg a NAZI because he made a film about NAZIs? No, art isn't about the SUBJECT of the film, but how it is presented etc... You can't seen to seperate the artist from the art subject. You dont have to believe in its the arts "Message" for it to be considered art. An artst could be hired by a cigar company and he could make a beautiful art peice on the subject of cigars... even if he hated cigars. You conider tarantino an artist? Then he must believe that violence is the way to do things...right? If thats TRUE art, he must BELIEVE the message of his films...right? heh, you make me laugh...
If Leni Riefenstahl's in Hell by LewisWetzel	Sep 9th, 2003 01:50:29 PM
She joins Will Geer, Abraham Polonsky and all those other Stalinist hacks. You're next, Pete Seeger.
leni's fate by GBenton	Sep 9th, 2003 01:58:34 PM
First of all, I am of Jewish descendant AND I live in Germany. I have never seen Triumph of the Will or her Olympia movie and probably never will. But to all the Leni-Haters: What is the worst punishment an artist can suffer? In my opinion it is not being able to continue the work of art. After WWII noone would finance Riefenstahls projects, she couldn't do any more movies. Isn't that punishment enough? She couldn't make movies for the last 60 years, imagine that! And since she couldn't do any more pix, we will never know whether she had the one picture in her, that movie that would be pure genius and be a humanitarian masterpiece. she never had a chance to redeem herself through her work. and we don't know what great films we might have missed... Since we're talking politics here. Isn't it funny?: the Americans have taught - almost brainwashed - the Germans for decades that war is bad (no wonder after starting two world wars) and finally when Germany said no to the Iraq war, suddenly the Germans (along with the French) were the bad guys once again? (by the way, i'm glad that s.o.b. Saddam Hussein is gone).
point of order? by ChickenGeorgeVII	Sep 9th, 2003 01:58:50 PM
does anyone give a rat's ass that Warren Zevon died too?....And thus, I asked. - - - George, The 7th Chicken.
yeah yeah, boo hoo by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 02:00:50 PM
i find the number of people willing to excuse an obvious nazi stooge on the basis of her filmmaking talent sickening. i mean, did anyone put a gun to her head and force her to make triumph of the will? no, she volunteered at a time when it was obvious to anyone with half a brain in the early 1930s that Hitler was a jew-hating scumbag. yet to read some of the posts on this thread, you'd have thought it came as some gigantic surprise to his supporters when he started to invade other countries. on a seperate note, i would like to express my thanks to harry for the sheer amount of naked titties on this original post.
Ancient Lights by SandBag	Sep 9th, 2003 02:03:28 PM
Ancient Lights, you are totally right, and I apologise.
Truth is not simple: Lesson One, the Dichotomy by Redbox	Sep 9th, 2003 02:07:04 PM
It is complete Ignorance to say someone is not a great artist because the are a bad or even evil person. There are two different conversations here. One, she was one of the most important filmmakers in the history of film. Two, she is responsible for and never took responsibility for basically selling the Nazi regime to Germany and the world. To argue either fact is fine, but to argue one against the other is bullshit. If you're offended by the ideas of life's true dichotomies, go pedal your ignorant simple minded concepts somewhere where people agree with you and you will be happy and untroubled. I am a Jew and my ancestry is from Europe and Russia. My family name is diminished by the acts of the Holocaust. People with my name died because of what she did. I grew up with survivors and I know the tales. I've seen "Shoah" and "Night and Fog" more times than anyone should. The Nazi Party took rule by allowing Germans to only think simple thoughts and simple answers: God, Country, Germans, Jews, Good, Evil. Jews were simplified, caricatured and vilified. Now you do that to History. Every person is complex. Yes, even Leni Riefenstahl. Those reading this have caused acts of cruelty and joy to countless loved ones and strangers. We all do. You have scared classmates for life or encouraged the uncertain to attain success. It wasn't to long ago many of you felt we should ship any one who looked Arabic to government camps. In fact we have let many of our rights dwindle because of the very same kind of fear that Germans had in the 30's. Mob rule, simple condemnation, these are the tools of the Nazis. Don't use them to judge anyone. She was a complex artist and certainly she has a lot to answer for in the book of history, but go rent "The Blue Light", a film she made before her more infamous deeds. It is an astounding film about the purity of youth and how society feeds on and corrupts it. You will have no doubt that she was a genius. She like many geniuses and the rest of us, was a complex package and an important historic figure. Do you protest Wagner's music because he was an anti-Semite, or do you rip up the dollar because George Washington owned slaves. What about Bing Crosby music for the Holidays? Bing beat the shit out of his kids. Miles Davis beat his wife. Errol Flynn was a Nazi spy. Bob Crane was a pervert. I'm not forgiving them, but to forget them because of their faults and evils is to ignore half of history and it is like telling me Art is great because its happy and friendly. Art is great because it is great, no amount of evil can make Riefenstahl NOT a Genius and no amount of goodness can make "Family Circus" worthwhile. Cheers-Redbox
Is it me, or did a character based on Riefenstahl almost appear by Shanghai Nicky	Sep 9th, 2003 02:10:01 PM
I seem to remember reading somewhere that during the Berlin rally at which Indy gets Hitler's autograph, there were shots of a woman film director obviously based on Riefenstahl shouting into a megaphone, but that those shots were cut from the final print.
Yes, they actually did hold a gun to her head by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 02:12:24 PM
You find that so difficult to believe? Just re-read a little history, buddy. How do you think Hitler took power in the first place? By forcing people to submit to his will!!! So why would she be any different? I'm not saying she's a good woman, and I'm not particularly impressed with her "talent," either, to be brutally honest. I'm just stating a fact. She did not have much of a choice but to obey Hitler, whether she wanted to or not. Do you think the Olympians in Iraq had any choice but to obey Uday and Qusay when they were given orders to snitch on their teammates? Yes, they may be rats, but when it's your life at stake I don't think there's much of a choice.
Dick Hertz: I don't think anybody here has criticized Riefenstah by Mosquito March	Sep 9th, 2003 02:25:04 PM
I think people are simply upset that others are making excuses for her contribution to Nazism, some even going so far as say, "Oh, she couldn't have known what they were going to do." Your comments about Churchill and the corporate powers-that-were/are of America just cement that she knew exactly what she was doing, and who she was doing it for. She had a higher level of access to the Third Reich than even Churchill had. And, she was entrusted with making Hitler look good to the world. She had to know it was a propaganda film - she made it. And, who needs propaganda? Leaders who want to convince the public that something bad is actually something good. It is because TRIUMPH OF THE WILL is so brilliantly made that she must be held morally accountable for her contribution to the bolstering of Hitler's power over the German people: THAT WAS ITS DESIRED EFFECT. And, it's something that other, more conscientious filmmakers at the time refused to do. How could they see what was going on, and not Riefenstahl?
Come on, guys. Don't be a dummy, be a smarty... by MyNameDoesn'tFit	Sep 9th, 2003 02:30:23 PM
Ah, forget it.
would it kill some of you to crack open a history book once in a by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 02:35:02 PM
she was forced at the barrel of a gun to make 'Triumph'? "Just re-read a little history, buddy". Glass, where do you get off just making shit up?? "How do you think Hitler took power in the first place?" Sadly, by way of democratic elections - which wasn't german democracy's finest hour to be sure, but there you go. And who helped Hitler build popular support? Fools, stooges and dupes who were mesmerized by his rabble-rousing. Things weren't so hot in Germany in 1934, but most folk still had sufficient choice: cooperate or get the hell out.
A couple of interesting works to check out by mtoast	Sep 9th, 2003 02:41:46 PM
Kurt Vonnegut's novel, "Mother Night" deals with very similar issues of propaganda and motive versus result. And it's set against the backdrop of Nazi Germany no less. It's been years since I read the book, but I recall it being one of his better novels. It didn't pack the punch of Slaughterhouse-Five, but actually had much nicer prose if I remember correctly. There was a movie adaptation made in the 90s, but I can remember nothing about it -- except that Nick Nolte was in it. And for something completely different, I'm sure many people know that the medal awards scene in the original Star Wars was lifted directly from Triumph of the Will. And we all know that George Lucas has never made a bad decision in his life!
Jeebus, but some of your are such simple beasts by WeedyMcSmokey	Sep 9th, 2003 02:43:53 PM
Die Nazi scum, huh? Can't be considered a great artist becuase she's a Nazi? Fuck, can't be considered human because she's a Nazi - right? Whatever makes the world seem more simple and easy to digest..... Speilberg loved Triumph of the Will BTW. Big influence. So did Lucas, take a look at your precious Star Wars to see its influence. Condemnation is all too easy, understanding takes a little time - see Hitler. Fucking knee-jerk reactionaries just re-ordering your own ignorance and prejudice.
The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Reifenstahl is essential vi by watashiwadare	Sep 9th, 2003 02:44:48 PM
Nothing is so simple as stereotypes.
sandbag by boohallsmalls	Sep 9th, 2003 02:51:09 PM
how shall i disect thee? let me count the ways. first of all, if your knowledge is limited to dictionary definitions, you best sit down before you hurt yourself. If you had read (understood, paid attention to) what i wrote, I was refering to aristotle's definitions of art as written in the Poetics. defintions that are no doubt far more explatory, encompassing and indepth than those found in ANY dictionary. Secondly, if you think for a second that a true artist could do quality work that he or she didn't believe in fully, then you must not be an artist. Art is a self giving and self fullfilling act, and anything short is simply not art. its panit by numbers. it may have the appearance of art, the smell, the taste and feel, but it ain't art. Oh and Steven Speilberg never made a film about nazis, he made a film about the holocaust, about one Nazi, who against his furor's wishes and true to what he knew was right, did what he could to save those people that he could. It was a story that speilberg felt needed to be told, so he told it. He believed deeply in the message of that film, and don't ever think otherwise. On to Tarantino, I never said i thougth his films were art, though I might. But do you really think that the message of his films is to be violent? all those people get so fucked in the end of his movies and live miserable, depressing lives. He's a storyteller, but his is as true to those characters as any genre artist can be. He takes what 99.9% of film directors would create as lifelss two dimensional stereotypes, and makes them as three dimensional and fully alive as you cvan find in most of today's best films. You seem to be operating under the assumption that anything made under an artistic medium is art. Another tell tale clue that you are not an artist. Just because it uses paint, has a beat, exists on celluloid, or is written in the pages of a book, doesn't make it art. Art transcends pop culture, it doesn't live on the same plane as entertainment, although the two can and often do become one. A painting is a painting, but van gogh is art. call me an elitist if you want, but some artistic ventures have more value than others, much more. In what world can both beethoven and britney be considered art? there simply is no comparison.
To those idiots who think Riefenstahl was an artist by Brendan3	Sep 9th, 2003 02:57:58 PM
I notice how some morons here think her politics and contribution to the Nazi cause should be overlooked because from an "artistic" point of view her propaganda work can be appreciated... so from a "logistical" point of view can you also appreciate the masterful efficiency of the way the death camps were run? I guess you have to admire those skillful Nazis. Apologists only have themselves to apologize for. I'm glad Riefnstahl is dead... I just wish it were years ago.
Boohallsmalls - how may I disect thee? by WeedyMcSmokey	Sep 9th, 2003 02:59:55 PM
I prefer the idea of Art as being niether pornographic nor didactic - the Joycean theory so to speak. True art does not instruct, it does not teach, it does not titalate, it simply is. No message, no lust - just inspiration emboddied. How's that for Phil 102? Defining art, gimme a break.
As far as I know she wasn't a Nazi by 007-11	Sep 9th, 2003 03:21:28 PM
She was just one of those people that didn't give a damn. "Great Aryan Utopia? What the fuck do I care?" All she cared about is that she got the chance she normally wouldn't get to make a movie, she took it, and made one hell of a movie. That's how she was her whole life, when she was 80 something she lied about her age so she could learn to scuba dive. I'm not trying to vindicate the woman, apathy is about the same as going along with the program.
boohallsmalls... by SandBag	Sep 9th, 2003 03:24:25 PM
The reason I gave the Dictionary definition of art, is bacuase when people use the word art, that's what they mean. I really don't care if someone has wrote a book giving a different meaning. So you believe that a person has to believe the "message" of his/her product or it's not art. You say I'm not an artist? Well, how do YOU define art? Somthing creative you believe in? Then britney spears IS art, (if she believes in her music, which she seems to do) but maybe to you, not the same quality of art as beethoven. By saying Britney Spears music is not considered art, is saying art is only art once it reaches a certain quality. For all you know beethoven sat down one day and thought, "I know... Ill make my music that will appeal to people, even though I persoanlly dont like it." Are you saying there is a chance that beethovens music is not art, because this COULD be the case? To me Art is defined on a individual basis. I might consider somthing art that somone else dosn't. I dont look at somthing that appeals to me and say, "hmm, it looks like art, and appleals to me... BUT WAIT!, am I sure the artist really believed in this? Maybe this artist was just trying to please somone else." I don't care what your precious book says about art.
Actually, he got power through coersion by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 03:30:37 PM
Democratic election? Right. Just about as democratic as stopping all the black people driving to the polls during the Bush/Gore debacle. Hitler FORCED people to vote for him under the guise of democracy, and he killed those who refused. You don't know this? And I was speaking symbolically regarding the gun to the bitch's head. Coercion doesn't necessarily require the gun being produced. Often the mere idea is effective enough to force someone into something. Hitler won "elections" because he sent his criminals and thugs and idiots, whom he extracted almost directly from prisons, to go around telling people in power and civilians alike how they would vote. It's called "Dictator," buddy, look it up.
And yes, Leni DID allude to feeling like she had no choice by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 03:31:46 PM
I saw it in a documentary in a film class. I can't remember the name, so don't ask, but it was a well-known, well-informed one.
Forgive me, Sparkles by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 03:37:57 PM
Maybe I'm wrong and ignorant, but for some darn reason I hate the people who killed 3 of my grandparents. Hmmm...
Can't judge her. by Captain Decker	Sep 9th, 2003 03:47:01 PM
If one person sees "Triumph of the Will" and comes away saying "Never again", fine. If another comes away saying: "My God, what brilliant work!", also fine. What matters is that they SEE it. Sitting in a talkback, defining art and artistry, is pointless. It can't be qualified or quantified, only felt. As for me, there is more empirical evidence of her talent, then there is of her malevolence. If she has to answer to anyone, I'm pretty sure it isn't anyone in this talkback.
I'll be honest... by earthworm_	Sep 9th, 2003 03:56:25 PM
I'd never heard of her today, but I've just watched an interview with Gitta Sereni (sp?) who just completaly refuted the suggestion she was a Nazi (as in Jew hating war monger, rather than bearer of a card) and pointed out that a lot of her stuff was done in 1934-36, a time most Germans could realistically say they weren't aware of what was to follow. The US and the UK have introduced detention without trial if you'd like an analogy (and I'm NOT calling anyone a Nazi, neo-cons)Sereni knew her personally as well, for a long time. (for those who don't know she's a historian and writer who goes around haranging and ruining Holocaust apologists and deniers, amongst other things)
"I saw it in a documentary in a film class". by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 04:06:48 PM
"I can't remember the name, so don't ask, but it was a well-known, well-informed one." haha. that pretty much tells us everything we need to know then. i've stopped typing 'haha' but - just so you know - i'm still laughing.
Well, sandbag, that's just it. by FluffyUnbound	Sep 9th, 2003 04:09:05 PM
We CAN'T know what is in the mind of the artist, other than by hearsay. That is one of the reasons that artis-centered definitions of art can't be made to work. They can't account for all possible states of mind, including, as you point out, duplicity. We can only measure and define art based on what it does to its audience. If art falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, it does not make a noise. But, that only worsens the "Was Leni an artist?" question, because by that standard she certainly WAS a great artist, as measured by her impact on her audience, precisely to the extent that a film like Triumph of the Will was effective propaganda. But she has to defer to Goebbels, who by this definition was the greatest artist in Germany at that time. Of course, OUR artists were even greater, since we won, and since even Germans today bow before our own didacticisms.
New-whatever-your name is by Glass	Sep 9th, 2003 04:09:36 PM
I apologize for not keeping the name of every goddam thing I've ever seen in the past 10 years on the top of my head because I have nothing else in the world to think of. Fuck you and your shit stained underwear.
Amazing... by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 04:10:49 PM
I'm thoroughly amused (and disgusted) by the naivite among a lot of the talkbackers here. Why is it soooooo difficult for you to believe that instead of Riefenstahl and Hippler being "coerced" into making films for Hitler, maybe -- just maybe -- there were Nazi FILMMAKERS as well as... oh, I don't know... Nazi BAKERS, DOCTORS, as well as Nazis in every walk of German life at the time. You idiots assume that an artist can do no wrong. If you truly think that everyone involved in the Nazi propaganda machine was forced into it (despite no evidence to support Riefenstal's alleged coercion), you are relativist, revisionist, amoral troglodytes.
wow...there's a lot of touchy whiny film geeks in the house toda by exador	Sep 9th, 2003 04:11:24 PM
i used to post here all the time, but i tend to just read the news now, and only occasionally look around the talkbacks...and this is a prime example why......this place is jam-packed with idiots.......wah wah wah, she was a nazi, wah wah wah, can't seperate the art from the artist, wah wah wah, burn in hell......wow...such a mature audience, such noble and important statements.....now, after having argued your selves into a frenzy, i suggest some of you should marshal the energy to move out of your parents basement, go down the street to the library, and F*ucking educate yourselves. She was an artist, pure and simple, and her work will outlive all of you. she was a master at the craft, and the only shame is that she wasn't able to create more films.....now....some of you no doubt just like to argue, some like to take offense at the drop of a hat, and some of you are just plain ignorant, but i'll let you all be the judge of which is which....at the very least, it's something new for you to argue about....normally i'm not this pissy, but frankly, a lot of you argue about this and that, and now, when a true artist of her time passes, all you do is call names...it's rubbish....now behave yourselves.. ;)
Pressing question by mtoast	Sep 9th, 2003 04:33:37 PM
Can we please settle the debate on organic webshooters before we move on to another argument?
Get a clue, geeks. by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 04:37:01 PM
Again, all you Leni apologists are completely missing the point. Yes, she was an artist. A GREAT artist. Was she a Nazi sympathizer? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm convinced she was, but again, that's not the point. The point is, if she was at the time or wasn't -- why has she consistently dodged the questions pertaining to that and shown aboslutely no remorse or sadness over the fact that her art may have exacerbated and aided the crimes of one of the most heinous mass murderers in history? If I had somehow unwittingly aided a criminal in committing a crime, I'd be falling all over myself in my apologies and self-recriminations. I have both Triumph of the Will and Olympia in my collection and have often marvelled at the artistry of Riefenstahl's craft. That still doesn't make her anything other than a cold, callous, irresponsible unrepentant hag whose passing brought nothing but a smile to my face. Harry and Massawyrm and the rest of you apologists -- watch the documentary The Architecture of Doom. It shows once and for all the use of art in Nazi culture to undermine democracy, foster elitism and pave the way for murder. Oh wait. They were all forced to, because there were no Nazi sympathizing artists in Germany at the time, right? School yourselves.
Ancient Lights - I don't agree by WeedyMcSmokey	Sep 9th, 2003 04:44:03 PM
I mourn the loss of anyone who strives to reshape convention and has a will to be great. She is vilifed because she is complicite in a party responsible for grave injustice. I'm not even sure we all agree what Nazi means. Nazis are so easy to pidgeon hole in the West - they were clearly inhuman monsters of pure evil - a concept so child-like as to defy description. Were they better or worse than Stain's Kulak purges, Mao's cultural revolution, or the genocide of Indians? In ascribing a value judgement from our position isn't going to approach the truth any soon. Naw, that's strikes me as being too easy - they were much like the rest of the West at that time (eugenics was big biz)- all too-human - capable of beauty and destruction. i think at the end of the day, you can look at what a person has left us, what positive impact can be taken from it and just have to levy a bit of the benefit of the doubt. We're awful quick to condemn these days, usually without so much as an inkling of thought to the contrary. To me, that's the path to maintaining the staus quo and continuing to prevent our most entrench prejudices from ever being challenged. Kind of a mealy-mouthed way of saying what I want to say but I don't have time to go further.
Cannibal Nun, does that mean your a Nun and you eat Nuns? by Redbox	Sep 9th, 2003 04:50:48 PM
Now here's your typical closet Nazi, Mr. Cannibal Nun. Anytime you need a lesson, in true superiority, come check me out in Boston. I'm German and Jewish and anytime you want to open the hatch of your Bunker shout out. I miss the days of my teens in upstate New York, Skinheads are so funny when you make them cry. Plus Bach kicks Wagner's ass. Wagner's all force with no subtly. Brandenburg Concertos Baby!!! Cheers you silly fool. Redbox
Where's Neill Cumpston's review of Triumph of the Will? by schoolofruckus	Sep 9th, 2003 04:56:37 PM
no seriously, fuck her, fuck TOTW, and fuck Birth of a Nation, while we're at it!
flint1976 by ELGordo	Sep 9th, 2003 04:57:42 PM
It's HitlEr you stupid fucker. Also know what the fuck you are talking about.
One person's propganda is another fanboy's Michael Bay beer comm by watashiwadare	Sep 9th, 2003 05:00:40 PM
everyone's all hyper but somehow i'm pretty sure the moral majority here is willing to overlook the goods sold to you in most of your popular favorite armageddon flics. values are registered and consumed. where would we be without the jackass belligerence of the top 40?
by django_1	Sep 9th, 2003 05:02:54 PM
Exador, why did you even bother to post? You can now officially call yourself an idiot.
longfellow should rot in hell too.. by Windowlicker74	Sep 9th, 2003 05:14:15 PM
what the fuck are you taling about man? if you don t know jack about history, then why make all these statement. After WW2, US took home thousands of nazi engineers ( Von Braun anyone? ) to work on a space programm. without those nazi s , their would n t have been a man on the moon. how ironic is that?
"There is beauty in the explosion of an atomic bomb with its awe by FluffyUnbound	Sep 9th, 2003 05:23:31 PM
I saw a plate the other day of a Minoan figurine in ivory and gold of one of their priestesses holding a snake in each hand. There was a time when most scholars thought that the Minoan religion was mild, but there is a growing consensus that this was a misidentification along the lines of earlier beliefs about the Maya - and that the religion probably included human sacrafice. But the object was beautiful, and its possible bloody history not really important or resonant. You could use an example from Aztec art if you chose, or Hittite art, or whatever you chose. None of us worry about or even consider the moral implications of our regard for such objects. I imagine the acts associated with them were fairly unpleasant to those who actually had to live through them. We disregard that now, because the time is so remote; one can't get around the fact those people would be dead either way. So yes, the Nazis were evil; yes, they were atrocious criminals; yes, no one should ever forget, etc. But they will. It will be forgotten, not in the sense of the facts no longe being known but in the sense that it will cease to be emotionally relevant to those who know about it. The 2nd World War will be like Caesar's extermination of the Gauls, or the Mongol sack of Baghdad. Interesting as spectacle, and oh - did you see what the archeology team dug up? Some piece of junk being sold on EBAY right now - say, a Nazi dagger or belt buckle - will end up in some future museum, and the accompanying card will talk about how the metal was machined and what the symbols meant and the future eye will find the shape and form attractive as part of the human condition - or not. And some future Madonna will incorporate the motif into her costuming - or not. Some future Dodd will lecture about how the slogan on the buckle reflects a different concept of the nature of the mind than is current at that time - or not. Riefenstahl's work, if it physically survives, will be no different.
you people sicken me by pooneil	Sep 9th, 2003 05:32:15 PM
I'm not a Nazi, I don't condone genocide, or propaganda films, or any of that bullshit, but I find it disgusting that more than half the people posting on here obviously take pleasure from another human being's death. Does that make you any better than the Nazis themselves? She made some Nazi propaganda, and spent the next fifty years documenting African tribes. She's universally despised as "Hitler's Whore". Now she's dead, so just let her rest in peace. Saying something like "she's roasting in hell" reeks of sadism. Someone posted: "There is no arguing that Triumph of the Will, Battleship Potempkin or Birth of a Nation promote some of the most unpleasant beliefs humanity has managed to generate" I don't remember anything "unpleasant" about Battleship Potemkin. It was a film about the people rising up against the Tsar and the army. Is that a bad thing?
Dick Hertz by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 05:39:41 PM
You just used the worst, most cliched argument utilized in relativistic debate. "Yeah, I killed that guy -- But that dude over there killed TWO!" Why bother making any kind of moral judgments on anything then? It becomes a question of never having to rectify any wrongs in society if they can't all be DONE AT ONCE. That kind of argumentation is the last refuge of those unwilling to assume responsibility for enforcing rules to maintain a cohesive society on the grounds that there is no good or evil -- only "interpretations" and "points of view". And before the leftists and right-wingers chime in to bash, I'm neither a bleeding heart liberal or bible-thumping conservative.
pooneil (fitting name) by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 05:42:32 PM
Does taking pleasure in the death of an unrepentant Nazi sympathizer equate me with the Nazis themselves? Hmm... Let me think... Umm... NO. Jackass.
Doc, you're right, it doesn't make you a nazi by Massawyrm 1	Sep 9th, 2003 05:58:19 PM
But it also doesn't make you someone I'd like to know. My earlier post wasn't meant to be an apology, it was meant to offer a different perspective to those who so willingly hate someone they've never met. Doc, you obviously get what Harry was talking about, as you can seperate the art from the artist. That's all Harry was doing. Afterall, there are many rotten shits in the world, and some of them just happen make great movies. I myself have no opinion on the woman, but I understand how people can be caught up in a movement. I was merely stating my opinion. I find it hard to take anyones death as a joyous event.
Doc Jackass by pooneil	Sep 9th, 2003 05:59:19 PM
Hitler and Stalin died when they were still genocidal tyrants, so by all means, be glad they died when they did, so they couldn't commit any more atrocities. Leni Riefenstahl was 101 years old, and hadn't made any Nazi propaganda for about sixty years. So does it really matter if she's dead or alive? She was just an old woman. If you think she deserves punishment, you're welcome to travel back in time to 1940, when it would have actually made a difference.
She was a brilliant and innovative artist, forgive her unfortuna by mhw	Sep 9th, 2003 06:04:26 PM
Why all the negative chatter about this artist? Her work with the Germans was of landmark status. Even George Lucas owes her a direct debt and, like it or not, all you talkbackers wish you were him. She was a artist with little to base her work on other than her command of her craft. It's far to easy, and subtly sexist, to demean her because of atrocities her employer decided upon years later. If the Muslims take over the west will "Lawerence of Arabia" still look Oscar worthy, or will they be burning Lean in effigy? Lenny should be remembered for her creativity and will, not her unfortunate choice of employer.
pooneil by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 06:11:56 PM
Punishment? Far be it from me to be the one to punish her. She was acquitted of any and all war crimes, and since I believe in the rule of law, that's fine by me. However, that didn't make her a better person at all. And to think that someone somehow is absolved of serious wrongdoing, having "earned" it by living to the ripe old age of 101 (although never distancing herself from the possible detrimental effects her films may indirectly have had on many, many people), is just asinine and repugnant. Go ahead and continue equating the DEEDS of mass murderers with the absolute absence of SYMPATHY from someone like myself who sees no loss for mankind with her passing. I'm sure it makes the world a much more managable place in your mind without having to worry about different degrees of evil and having to make judgment calls on ideology, since it's all relative, right?
At a time when simply disagreeing with US policy regarding Israe by Kenshiro_Kane	Sep 9th, 2003 06:13:19 PM
... it's easy to see how stuuf like this goes on in a forum like this. ======== Wait, what's that sound? Oh, just another Palestinian suicide bomber or another Israeli missile attack. (sigh)======== Let's concentrate on the important stuff- like will Jessica Biel's nipples show though her tank top in the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" remake?? Word.
mhw by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 06:14:50 PM
That was in all probability one of the most idiotic posts I've ever read on AICN. Including Fett's stuff.
To know the difference is evolved intelligence by django_1	Sep 9th, 2003 06:18:10 PM
FluffyUnbound, collecting memorabilia of 'beautiful' objects of torture, genocide, cruelty, and xenophobia as adornment is just not what I desire to do. To display them in museums as historical records and to encourage critical thinking are preferred. We are not doomed to repeat history; we evolve.
Most important female director? by TS Thomas	Sep 9th, 2003 06:19:23 PM
"no matter what... Leni Riefenstahl, to me, is the most important Female Director of all time." I've been coming for a few years, first time I've ever seen that ever mentioned here. Shall it change to some other female director when they die.
her unfortunate choice of employer? by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 06:23:29 PM
that's like saying Eichmann was a brilliant organizer, he just had an unfortunate choice of project. what makes this thread so hilarious is the sight of so many film school pseuds grappling with the challenge of trying to parade their right-on politics and their superior knowledge of cinema at the same time. fuck it: if she wasn't a filmmaker, you wouldn't give a rat's shiny ass about her merit as an artist. if she had composed nazi operas or painted nazi murals, you'd readily recognize that a nazi stooge is still a nazi stooge, no matter how talented.
NAKED CHICKS!!! by GrandoCarIissian	Sep 9th, 2003 06:29:32 PM
that's what it's really all about, my friends.
newc0253 by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 06:30:24 PM
Bravo. You hit the nail right on the head. Glad to see someone with some intellectual backbone.
Poor Doc's inability to uhm, well kinda, you know, describe stu by mhw	Sep 9th, 2003 06:30:28 PM
Mr. Pusszuzu you're probably just a little annoyed by the George Lucas thing. Whatever you meant by your comment please understand that its Ok not to be blessed with the ability to communicate efficiently. Things should turn around as you mature.
mwh by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 06:32:56 PM
If anything, that post made even less sense. It's like listening to the non-sequitor-riddled dialogue in Lucio Fulci movies. You continue to impress me.
The only people I see who should burn in hell are the ignorant c by Uncapie	Sep 9th, 2003 06:35:05 PM
None of you were even born when Lili Riefenstahl made her film and yet, you have the balls to condemn a woman you never met because of her affiliation. What about Arnold Schwarzenegger's father being an accused Nazi? Did that stop you from from going to his films? The minute you hear the word "Nazi", you think that person single-handedly, led the Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, Homosexuals and undesireables into the gas chambers. You like to get on the band wagon and jump around protesting this and that without the hard facts. You don't do your homework. You judge people guilty without the benefit of know what they were about. You are no better than the Nazi's, Pol Pot, Papa Doc Duvalle, Idi Amin or Communists that did the same thing to their people. As one poster stated above, if someone photographed the Twin Towers incident on 9/11, does that make them a terrorist, especially if the benefitted by the sale of that video tape? I am ashamed that young people would tear down a 101 year old woman's work and call her names. Let's see you be remembered for an artistic piece like Eisenstein, Ford or Rifenstahl when you pass away.
Uncapie by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 06:38:32 PM
You're absolutely right. I have NEVER gone to see a movie starring Arnold Schwarzenegger's dad. Moron.
Good propoganda is hard to find. by phelion2	Sep 9th, 2003 06:53:20 PM
In our Super-sized into obesity America (fat slaves don't revolt, at least until they realise they've been had), really good quality propoganda is hard to find. The reign of Little King George has had to get by with hacknied cheesy country music based fodder that only preaches to the choir and had done almost nothing to expand their market share, but when you can fix an election you don't really need that much dynamic growth. Leni made propoganda that was actually nice to look at. It was sexy, sensual and intelligently designed to drive the viewers to Hitler's point of view. Hitler and his speech writers were masters of the adage "you can say things in front of a crowd that you never could to one or two people at a time." Televangelists(Benny Hinn is a consumate master showman in this regard) borrow very heavily from the formula of "Will" in their arena-sized sermons, using the combination of music, lighting, pagentry, dogma and production design to whip tens of thousands of people into a hypnotic fervor and milk their pocket books for all they can. Granted the production values of those elements are repugnantly awful, but they work because they follow the same formula that the Nazis, the Romans and the Pharohs used to warp the minds of their peoples. If you watch "Will" and "Olympia" with educated eyes, you will see the use of the formula, but it's a lot easier on the eyes than Lee Greenwood or Toby Keith. The films have a lasting educational value in showing people how they can be manipulated by sounds and images (advertisers certainly have "will" in their playbooks). The key to "will" was that it was so truly good a work of propoganda, you could CGI in "People's front of Judea" logos and John Cleese making pro-PFJ speeches and it would still be a great film, because who the film was promoting is irrelevant because it so masterfully and attractively executes the propoganda formula. The nazis and right wing republicans of tomorrow and hundreds of years form now will most likely still be ripping Leni off, but as long as people can still see the film and know it for what it was and know to look out for manipulation in advertising and religious dogma, it will maintain its' historical and educational value.
"You are no better than the Nazi's... by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 06:57:46 PM
...Pol Pot, Papa Doc Duvalle, Idi Amin or Communists that did the same thing to their people"? you mean Pol Pot's crime was to make smart-alecky posts on a movie website talkback? wow, and to think all this time i thought he had organized the extermination of large sectors of cambodian society. you're absolutely right, though: my 'crime' of badmouthing a nazi filmmaker is the moral equivalent of his. but then, you've never met me either and still you condemn me, so i guess you're also guilty of the same crime. wow, looks like we're all in this together: you, me, Papa Doc. if we get a few more on the list, we could field a softball team.
Massawyrm by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 07:01:30 PM
"But it also doesn't make you someone I'd like to know." Wow... And here I was, fantasizing about long, relativistic conversations over dinner and scrabble. My loss, I guess. That will certainly teach me for not mourning the passing of a non-repentant Nazi collaborator.
Django, you think I am making a point that I'm not. by FluffyUnbound	Sep 9th, 2003 07:03:14 PM
The issue of the day seems to be whether or not the fact that Riefenstahl was a Nazi should or should not outweigh the fact that she was an artist. My point has been that it doesn't really matter what we think about it, because art always wins in the end, whatever we may want to say. The Nazis outrage us ethically, but as history proceeds that always fades, and people end up not caring. People don't care now that the Aztecs killed people to make the sun rise - not in the way that they care about the Holocaust. No one is out building museums of remembrance to the Carthaginians. But plenty of people are worried about Aztec art and the art of Republican Rome. Men are motivated by ethics on the time scale of a human life, or thereabouts, but when you are talking about centuries aesthetics wins the war of attrition every time. As time passes the number of people who acutely feel ethical outrage against the Nazis will decline, not because the Nazis will get any better, but because time and distance will once again make people not give a shit. When that happens, the real sense of anger against Riefenstahl that, for example, you see here today, will be forgotten, and she either will be remembered as an artist or forgotten entirely in the sands of time. This may be a bad thing. Maybe Man's memory should be better. But right now, everything we know about history says that it isn't.
Cannibal_Nun by Psychonaut	Sep 9th, 2003 07:09:20 PM
Oh don't go to your cross-burning, you sweet little anthropophagic sister of mercy. Skull and bones conspiracy meeting! You crack me up dude. I'd still like someone to tell me what 8-18 means though.
Psychonaut by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 07:15:03 PM
It's code. Neo-Nazis in Europe today circumvented bans on some Nazi slogans and symbols. Thus, the initials for "Heil Hitler", HH, are numbered according to their place in the alphabet. In this case, 8-8, which you'll see skinheads have on t-shirts and ball caps. Anathema1973 used 8-18 in his post. 8=H 18=R. Heil Riefenstahl. Get it?
Checking in on the poor little doctor by mhw	Sep 9th, 2003 07:17:26 PM
Mr. Pussazaz, can't help but notice the thread of painfully hallow insights you keep dropping along the talkback trail. Kinda like tracking pidgeons flight by looking at nothing but ground. And to your compatriot Newz1234 or whatever the number. Please don't confuse Hitler's master plan with genius behind the lens, script or paint brush. The artist cannot be responsible for the maleficent application of their work I'm assuming you both are employed in manual labour so I'll make it easy. Lets say they hire you to dig a nice long hole. You work real hard and get it just right. Years later they dump the lifeless body of your last English teacher in that hole (I'm assuming that would be from about eighth grade). Are you then somewhat responsible for the death of the English language? Exactly, that is until we take a second look at the content and structure of the postings that hold either of your IDs.
mhw by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 07:24:07 PM
That's two really terrible parables in the same post. Please go on.
Correction: by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 07:25:53 PM
One terrible simily and one awful parable.
doc by mhw	Sep 9th, 2003 07:27:51 PM
I like you, lets meet again. Unfortunately for now I've got to get back to something I'm sure you don't really understand.
good choice by mhw	Sep 9th, 2003 07:30:23 PM
smart boy staying away from that one, its' called a life
mhw by DocPazuzu	Sep 9th, 2003 07:30:44 PM
You're right -- I never could fathom the seductive qualities of fuzzy porn.
"The artist cannot be responsible for the maleficent application by newc0253	Sep 9th, 2003 07:56:53 PM
uh, sure they can. it isn't like Riefenstahl recorded a song which the nazis happened to like and decided to use in their ads later on. Hitler tapped Riefenstahl to do the film in the first place. by this time, the guy's already written 'mein kampf' and attempted at least one coup. pop quiz: do you help him with his advertising, using your considerable talents as a filmmaker? Following your nobel-prize winning logic, if Bin Laden approached you tommorrow and asked you to direct his next 'unplugged' video to glamourize jihaad (in other words: not mere reportage), and you did a real kickass job, you would claim you ain't morally involved?
Great artist. Morally ambiguous person. by QUIXOTE	Sep 9th, 2003 08:04:39 PM
I mean, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? However, if I have to choose a side in this debate, I'll choose to hold her accountable for her Nazi affiliations. Whether she was a card carrying party-member or not, she still created a work which, although undeniably brilliant, aided one of the most barbaric atrocities in world history. Another thing. I don't understand why all the apologists out there think that just because the Nazi's weren't the only evil in the 20th century, that somehow this mitigates their actions. Yes Doc Duvalier was evil. Idi Amin was evil. Stalin was evil. So what? The Nazi's are still one of the most shameful chapters in the history of mankind. TRIUMPH OF THE WILL is an important and influential film but we cannot allow it's artistry, to blind us to what it is. It's a piece of propaganda commisioned by, and celebrating, a depraved collection of verminous scum.
I Think That This Is Less Complicated Than Many People Are Makin by Barron34	Sep 9th, 2003 08:13:54 PM
Leni Riefensthal was a Nazi propagandist. Simple. She was also a very talented filmmaker.Thsi was an evil use of a great talent. Talent can be put into service for GOOD causes and talent can be put in service for EVIL causes. Leni Reifenstahl chose to use her great artistic talent in the service of a great EVIL. This makes her act of propaganda EVIL. I don't care how great her talent was; great talent does not make you a good person or a decent human being. Reifenstahl's films should be studied to show how great talent can be grossly ubused and misused in the service of evil. Her work was beautiful propaganda.***The greater the talent, the greater sin it is to misuse it, and Riefenstahl severely misused her talents. To compare her to Oskar Schindler, a man who regularly risked his own life to save the lives of other human beings is obscene. Riefenstahl was a propagandist in the service of evil men. Just because she was a talented propagandist does not excuse her for propaganda and her support of an evil regime. Some people on this board seem to imply that becuase Reifenstahl was a brilliant artist, that she was also therefore "good". This is a very confused and dangerous perspective and a purely FALSE conclusion. If I was a talented rifleman, and used my talent to DEFEND human life, this might define me as "good". But if I was a talented rifleman and used my talent to MURDER innocent human beings, I am MISUSING MY TALENT, and my acts are therefore "evil". Leni Riefenstahl knowingly and willingly msisued her great filmmaking talent to glorify an evil regime. This is an evil act. I don't care how talented the woman was. She was a knowing Nazi propagandist, and was an unrepentant one. I find it sickening to see such support for such a propagandist on these boards. The fuzzy logic and weak thinking that I see here with many of her supporters is just the sort of stupidity that the Nazi's relied on to enable them to rise to power. It is the same sort of simple-mindedness that Riefenstahl exploited with her propaganda films. A superficially beautiful thing can very easily also be an evil thing. Do not confuse apparent beauty with goodness, or talent with human deceny. Triumph of the Will is meant to seduce people into thinking that evil is not evil and that Nazism is somehow good or great. It is neither; it is a terrible evil. It is a testament to how skilled a propagandist Reifenstahl was that she still has her defenders and apologits. I myself will take no part of it. Reifenstahl was a Nazi in spirit who equivocated and never apologized for her crimes. That makes her evil in my book.*So, there is no denying Riefenstahl's talent. The FACT that she put such great talent into the worshipful and dutiful service of her idol Hitler and his evil Nazi ideology makes her evil herself. Period. Please do not confuse her artistic ability with her character. The woman was an unapologetic worshipper of Hitler and the Nazi regime. She never repented of her acts during her entire long life. If she had done so, had apologized for her propaganda works, perhaps she could have redeemed herself and put her artistic ability into making amends for her earlier works. I do not see that she has done so, and she has gone to the grave an unrepentent servant of Adolf Hitler. This is enough to brand her as evil (and a servant of evil masters) in my book. Good riddance to her.****Finally, I beleive that some people who support her works are simply confused themselves. There is no denying the filmic beauty of her works. This is not the point. The point is HOW she used her artistic gifts. Now that we (hopefully) understand the Reifenstahl grievously misused her great skill, I hope that more of us can agree to condemn her work as the unrepentently evil propaganda it was and is. I urge all right-thinking people to reconsider their opinions on this matter. We live in dangerous times, and I beleive that it is incumbent upon us as Americans to comdemn Nazism and their collaborators in the strongest terms. We must not and can not allow the evils of Nazism to be apologized for by those with muddy thinking, or worse, those crypto-Nazis amongst us. These un-American Nazi sympathizers and apologists must repudiated at every turn. Reifenstahl herself does not deserve to be praised, but condemned, in the clearest of terms. Period.
Blast the Axis by -Dr.Strangelove-	Sep 9th, 2003 08:14:11 PM
Leni and a friend, for all those of you who claim "she was forced to do Nazi propaganda" http://www.thirdreichforum.com /files/leni_f_hrer.jpg http://www.thirdreichforum.com /files/leni_f_hrer2.jpg
History is now tomorrow by django_1	Sep 9th, 2003 08:24:43 PM
FluffyUnbound, yes it's true "people don't care now that the Aztecs killed people to make the sun rise - not in the way that they care about the Holocaust." The real question is how many societies are killing people to make the sun rise today? Would I want to wear some kind of artifact that symbolizes human sacrifice to an Aztec sun god, knowing the practice is dead today? For me it is unequivocally no. Yeah, I could admire the beauty of the craftwork, but my acquired knowledge of the symbolism doesn't go away. I for one don't want to revive human sacrifice in any shape or form. Now, I stand on my view that Leni Reinfenstahl was an exceptional artist. She did capture many beautiful images with a univeral understanding of the 'dialog' of moving images and still photography. That is my view today, not many year from now when the sting of the Nazi atrocities go away. Would I then view the Nazi philosophy as the best of human endeavors? No. Would I view Reinfenstahl's framing and camera placements in "Triumph of the Will" as supremely artistic? The answer will still be yes.
Ding Dong! - a Munchkin eulogy for Leni by Rupee88	Sep 9th, 2003 08:25:14 PM
And she's not only merely dead, She's really, most sincerely dead....Then this is a day of Independence. For all the Jews and their descendants! Yes, let the joyous news be spread. The Wicked Old Witch at last is dead!....She's gone where the Goblins go ..Below ...below ...below.
FUCK THAT NAZI BITCH by Louis P.	Sep 9th, 2003 08:33:58 PM
Seriously, its about fucking time she died. Why did such evil get to live such a long life? She never even apologized for her propaganda films, which shows her for the person she remained. Here's hoping that she's roasting in hell with Hitler. CUNT NAZI WHORE
All this talk of Eisenstein in the same breath is making me gasp by workshed	Sep 9th, 2003 08:43:36 PM
You are all a little misguided as to Eisenstein's motivations for a start. Eisenstein believed in Communism (as would anyone who had seen the plight of Russia's poor under Tzar Nicolas) but constantly criticised the deviations from the cause (as is clearly demonstrated in 'Ivan the Terrible'). Presumably, all those opposed to Leni's work will also dispose of any film in their collection that contains Wagner in the soundtrack. Lest we not forget, also, that one William Shakespeare also had a very jaundiced view on 'Moors' - setting the tone for the black stereotype for the next half-millenia. Will you narrow-minded fools get real. GREAT ART WILL ALWAYS BE GREAT ART AND LIVE FOREVER! Just ask that guy who painted the 'Mona Lisa'. You know... that Leonardo De Caprio fella.
What's Going On? by Redbox	Sep 9th, 2003 08:44:02 PM
note as crossing the line on a subject I think I'm pretty even on. I thought you were serious. Leni was a great artist and she, like many in her country, which by the way was being totally abused by the victors of WWI, saw Hitler as a new bold choice in the world. as did many around the world. We gave Hitler a lot of leeway before anyone tried to stop him, and then it was almost too late. But Leni's responsibility for Hitler was much like George Lucas' effect on Toy Stores. She didn't stumble into this, she wasn't forced, she was swept up in it. Does that make her evil? to many yes, anyone who was able to enjoy the third Reich seems evil in retrospect. Did she know what was really going on? Many Germans said they didn't, but its all a matter of what you chose to believe. The info was out there. The Jewish Ghettos and the propaganda, it didn't take to long before people saw what was going on. And yes many were afraid to act against the tide, but is that an excuse? The Nuremberg Trials said no, if you live in a society that commits evil and unconscionable acts, fear of life is not enough, if you participate in the acts themselves. We should consider that maybe Leni had second thoughts and tried in a safe way to do something with her later films. She could have done a lot more if she had stolen herself to the west and spoken out against the war. Leni never truly risked her ass an inch to make amends for what she was a part of and spent more time vocally defending herself then anything else. I love her work, "The Blue Light" especially, is a fantastic and smaller film to see apposite her Grander pieces. She is truly a great filmmaker. Fine, let's talk about Nazis. They were not Socialists, as they called themselves, they were Fascists. They planned Genocide, which I don't think anyone should take lightly. While many Germans supported Hitler, they were not all Nazi's. It was a political party. Many soldiers fought for their country and weren't so aware of what was happening at home. Many hated what their country had become, some were true heroes. Some loved the frantic hatred and chaos of the new political wind. Some made Lamp Shades and book covers from human skin. Some Nazis supporters and collaborators were Polish, some French, and of course the Italian and the Japanese, who now make all that cool Anime we all love. Leni's Death brings this all back to our minds, some don't want to think about it, feeling guilty or annoyed, some feel it gives them the right to judge and strike back, some just see it all as tragedy. I can't praise Leni and forgive her, but I can't feel good for her death, that is just a ghastly thought. I'm in a unique position. My German Grandmother married the love of her life, my Russian Jewish Grandfather. He died before I was born. I never knew him except in the humor and joy of my father and in the longing eyes of my grandmother. She missed him for almost thirty years until she died at ninety three after smoking a pack a day since his death. I don't know why I'm thinking of this, guess its just that generation. Leni's death is another door closing on memory and time. Still the Dichotomy is prevalent today Personally there is enough death and blame in Israel for not only the Israelis and Palestinians but the Arab world, Europe and yes the United States. But that's another can to open. It just seems that if you have an extreme view on right and wrong in this world, if you really think one person or one group is totally responsible for all evil, that we ourselves do not have any blame and responsibility, well I think it means that we are headed for more of the same. I hope not. Cheers and Peace Redbox What about some nudity in X-Men 3
First part got cut off here it is by Redbox	Sep 9th, 2003 08:51:49 PM
I just got back from work and you guys are still fighting. First Cannibal Nun, If you were being sarcastic fine, I read your first note as crossing the line on a subject I think I'm pretty even on. I thought you were serious. (Go back and read the first part)
Some of you.... by SuperTooth	Sep 9th, 2003 09:07:32 PM
I think some of you people are ridiculous. Some of you weren't even alive at the time, I wasn't. I'm not Jewish, I'm not anti-semetic, or racist of any people. And I won't judge her, as should no one else. No one knows what was in her heart. Obviously, most of you are ignorant, and some of you preaching your bullshit about hate and tolerance are ignorant. And yes, Ancient Lights, you are ignorant. Fuck you. She's dead, end of story. The final resting place of her soul or other people's opinions of her work shouldn't be anything of anyone's concern. After what the USA is doing now around the world and in war. Some are pro Bush, some are against. But we won't know how the history books depict him and his followers until years down the line. He still has plenty of years to do good or bad. I'm sure he is doing what he thinks is right, just as I'm sure Hitler thought he was right. Just like if the world didn't blame Germany for WW1 and bitch them around, he wouldnt have risen to power to 'fight back.' So let's rebuild Iraq so the next up and coming regime can eventually be our enemy. I have ADD, I might lose track here or there, too much to re-read. Peace... or war, whatever.
Holes, Ancient Art, Twin Towers and Other stuff from Ripley's .. by jbreen	Sep 9th, 2003 09:14:55 PM
First up - that holes ananolgy a few posts ago. Weird. A reminder: 'Lets say they' (Editor: who is
Some things are just unforgivable, period! by sprocket-bot	Sep 9th, 2003 09:16:54 PM
Why is it so many 'great artist's' are linked with facist's and dictatorships? The fact is, she worked on a film that was the CORE of evil propaganda, she was allied with a man who embodies evil and she suffered rightly for her actions! I don't put art above human injustice. She could have fled Germany, she chose to stay and film, she may have faced death for trying to leave, so what! She 'feels bad' for Triumph, oh, I'm so fuckin' sorry, your a talented artist so all is forgiven! I wonder what Jews (not the Hollywood sell outs) feel about that? Oh, your sorry, well shit, several million dead jewish souls at the feet of Hitler, who you helped through propaganda, hell, all is forgiven! The problem with many film fans is they have no sense of perspective, talented or not, they are people and deserve punishment when they do wrong!
Your elevator car is here, Leni baby. by Rufus_T_Firefly	Sep 9th, 2003 09:37:35 PM
Just watch out for those six million or so fingers reaching for the "down" button. As fascinating as I find this debate, the simple fact is SHE HELPED MAKE IT HAPPEN. Wear something cool, honey.
Self-righteous imbeciles... by greenleaf	Sep 9th, 2003 09:39:44 PM
Did it ever occur to you that some of the Germans who supported the Nazi party in the 30s may have been, you know, fooled? Nearly all Germany was behind Hitler, and you are insane if you think these people, the whole of the German people, were "EEE-VIL". Have you ever tried to imagine what YOU (as a German born in 1910!) would do if you were a German living in Hitler's Germany in 1934, 1939, 1942? Half of you, if not MORE, would've been all the way behind the F
Ach du lieber--it's a good thing that I brought my iBook! by Noriko Takaya	Sep 9th, 2003 09:40:24 PM
I'm still on vacation here in Tahiti (Nelson voice: HAA-HAA!) but when I heard about this I just had to visit good ol' AICN and weigh in. As expected, there are a lot of posts praising Leni Riefenstahl as a filmmaking genius and a lot of other posts damming her as the handmaiden of an evil regime. In truth, she was both. Unlike most of you here, I've seen all of her films ("The Blue Light" being my favorite) and I having read history understand how she operated within the context of her era. A great many people--not just in Germany--believed at that time that with the arrival of the worldwide economic Depression capitalism and liberal democracy had failed and were looking for a new alternative. Some found it in Communism, as exemplified by Soviet Russia; others believed in Fascism, it's capitalist mirror; the Germans extolled National Socialism. What "Triumph of the Will" was about was capturing that mood among the German people, that feeling that their nation was finally on the rise again and was well on the way towards becoming a Great Power. I am sure that at the time Leni believed in Hitler as well--why not? So many others did, both inside and outside of the Reich. IMOHO it was after the war, when she failed to admit that she had been wrong when there was clear evidence all around of what a monster Der Fuhrer was, that her real moral failing occurred. But all that has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the art she created. The great Soviet film director Sergei Mikhailovich Eisenstein worked under Josef Stalin and made films that lauded his regime, a slaughterhouse dictatorship every bit as savage and inhuman as Hitler's and that actually wound up killing more people by the end. That does not change the fact that his work was brilliant (especially the truly fantastic "Battleship Potemkin" and "Alexander Nevsky"). And I won't even mention racist fool D.W. "Birth Of A Nation" Griffith. Learn to separate the artist from their work, people. Leni Riefenstahl right now is dead, and weather her soul adorns Valhalla as a Valkyrie at the right hand of Odin or she roasts in a boiling sea of pus, worms, goat cum and excrement alongside the likes of Irma Grese and Eva Braun, it matters not to me--for it's what she helped create and leave behind that I will judge her on. Oh, and P.S.--"Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics" by Frederic Spotts: READ IT if you truly want to gain some insight into the role of art, be it film/literature/paintings/play s/whatever, in the Third Reich. Whew! Well, that was a long post. Back to drinking, sunning and humping. Toppu o Nerae!
Leni by Fangy	Sep 9th, 2003 09:51:02 PM
Hi everyone. I wrote the original treatment for what became Prisoner of Paradise, which was nominated for Best Feature Doc this year at the Oscars. In my research I covered quite a bit on Leni as she made a few movies with Kurt Gerron. Was she a Nazi? No, I don't think so. Ufa and the film business were very interesting at that time. Goebbels summoned Fritz Lang one day and asked him to make films for the Reich. Lang responded that he was Jewish and Goebels offered to "Aryanize" him. There were still over 1000 Jews living and working in Berlin when the war ended as they were considered vital for the war effort. It's easy to point fingers. I'm not making excuses for Leni, but she should always be remembered for her artistry and craft. The funny thing is that she may never have had the opportunities and resources to direct such films if it wasn't for the war.
Rhetoric and name-calling aside... by QUIXOTE	Sep 9th, 2003 09:51:26 PM
...this is a way-above-average discussion for a talk back. At least it beats the hell out of "THE MATRIX SUX, LOTR ROOLZ!" etc.
leni by SimpsonsQuoteMan	Sep 9th, 2003 09:55:30 PM
Without a shred of doubt, the most important woman in film, EVER, and the most important documentary maker EVER. Easily one of the most important woman of the 20th century overall.
Your ignorance proves my point, DocPazuzu. by Uncapie	Sep 9th, 2003 10:11:09 PM
I was talking about Arnold as "guilt by association" in reference to his father as many media outlets tried to prey upon that aspect of associating him with a Nazi link. You can read, but you can't comprehend. You should learn to think before you open your mouth and insert your foot into it. Try reading the Children's Highlight's magazine in the dentist's office next time instead of looking at the pictures. Let me know when your mature enough to advance to Dr. Seuss.
Not a Nazi, but a Nazi propagandist just like Goebbels by alexnivek	Sep 9th, 2003 10:21:16 PM
"For a start, Krystalnacht had already taken place when she made the movie"--Not true. "Triumph of the Will" was made in 1934, and Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) was four years later. It should be noted that it was NOT the only Nazi propaganda film she made--"Tag der Freiheit" (Day of Freedom) came out afterwards, and is included on the "Triumph of the Will" DVD. Also, there was "Victory of the Faith" (Der Sieg des Glaubens) which came before. I'm a bit puzzled over these references to Gypsies used in a movie when Riefenstahl knew they were going to be gassed; IMDb credits her with only four movies during the Nazi years: Sieg, Triumph, Tag, and Olympia.
Lang, Reinhardt, Dietrich, Veidt, Wilder... by alexnivek	Sep 9th, 2003 10:29:19 PM
"Three, what historically revisionist theory grants Riefenstahl immunity from the good sense and perception of Nazi Germany that Fritz Lang and Marlene Dietrich had?"--Indeed. The cream of German cinema got the hell out of Germany when Hitler rose to power. Except for Riefenstahl. She stayed, to make films for Hitler. To pretend that she didn't know what she was doing, or that no one knew in 1934 that the Nazi Party was evil, is absurd.
Hey, at least she SURVIVED the war. 20-25 million did not. 101 by Ralph Cifaretto	Sep 9th, 2003 11:10:58 PM
she's lucky to have lived such a long and comfortable life, free of the terrible violence the man she admired and glorified inflicted on the world.
What I don't get is... by fontinau	Sep 9th, 2003 11:16:56 PM
Can someone explain to me why artists like Leni Riefenstahl had to live the rest of their lives as lepers for associating with Hitler, while Ford Motors and the Bush family (both of whom had financial dealings with the Nazis) were allowed to keep doing business?
A Wonderful, Horrible Life by Renata	Sep 9th, 2003 11:23:16 PM
I guess it's pretty easy to judge one way or another a person's life with the advantage of hindsight, especially some 60-70 years of it. My impression after watching "The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl" was that this woman was a social butterfly, intelligent and curious, whose hunger for attention and culture needed to be nourished. And she had an undeniable talent in the still infant filmmaking process. One's impression of her at that time is of someone who jumped at a chance to make a movie, prove her chops, and advance her career. Yes, she was as much an opportunist as she was a filmmaker. Imagine that! Things don't change so much, after all. Never does one get the feeling that she was a malicious, vile, racist, genocidal monster, like so many people that she surrounded her from. And there's never been proof (not even at Nuremberg), that she ever participated in anything approaching crimes against humanity. If anything, she is guilty of a poor ethical choice, not choosing to leave for America and take her chances there as people like Fritz Lang and others had. She was comfortable in Nazi Germany and, by the time she realized the true horror that was going on behind the Wizard's curtain, it was too late. For her, and others culpable in the Nazi atrocities (I'm looking at you France), denial became a necessity for survival. Her greatest transgression, I think, came when, after the war, she refused to denounce the regime, a simple point which may have saved her considerable heartache over her life. That's just my interpretation of things. Ultmately, there is one thing that can't be argued: her images are timeless.
Those savages have some nicely toned bodies! by Darth Siskel III	Sep 9th, 2003 11:30:22 PM
but that piercing and scaring is nasty.
Glass by Rain_Dog	Sep 9th, 2003 11:33:34 PM
For the last time, the Nazis were not socialists. They employed the word in their name in order to attract working class voters - their ideology had nothing to do with socialism whatsoever. Also, they didn't come to power through coercion - the first real evidence of their anti-democratic leanings was Krystalnacht, which occurred after they had taken a majority in the Riechstag via a democratic election. As for Riefenstahl and the "bitch having a gun to her head," read Ancient Lights' earlier post, quoting from her biography. If she was co-erced by anything, it was her libido. Where do I stand on the Riefenstahl issue? Very much in the same place as the aforementioned and highly eloquent Ancient Lights. Viewed entirely from an artistic/technical standpoint, her work was brilliant and influential, deserving of study and emulation in the same way the works of Griffith and Eisenstein are. From a moral standpoint, it can be nothing other than repugnant - even without the Holocaust having taken place, she was stil glorifying a self-confessedly white supremacist, viciously militaristic totalitarian regime. As someone else pointed out, why did Deitrich, Lang, Brecht and various others leave Germany in the early stages of the Third Reich if nobody had any idea how bad the Nazis were until after the war, as some of you seem to be suggesting?
Good Evil? by django_1	Sep 9th, 2003 11:39:38 PM
Cannibal_, Slaughter is good. The "colossal idiot People, the Jews and the Palestinians" are in titanic pissing contest. Nietzsche would have been impressed with both sides expressing their "will to power." Both side must have studied intensely "Beyond Good and Evil, Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future." Personally, I think the current course is futile, but I ain't no Nietzsche.
Er, by Rain_Dog	Sep 10th, 2003 12:01:32 AM

Talkbacks

Leni Riefenstahl - a filmmaking artist - passes away at 101...