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The Next Few ANGELs!!

FINALLY invisio text worthy spoilers! by SkiffyPup	Dec 11th, 2002 12:54:56 AM
bout time. Loved em, thanks herc. it doesn't matter that its fantasy cordy sex.... we still get to see it! :-D
Wow, what a. . . wow. . . i mean. . . wow. . . . wow by Bored Man	Dec 11th, 2002 01:06:26 AM
I'm not going to ruin the story, or even say anything remotely close to what happened so don't worry. BUT...Why no news on faith? I want spoilage on faith. Oh well guess ill have to wait. Its no secret that angelus is coming back, I HOPE they do that justice. In Buffy season 2 it was done with a good sense of finality, at least in his actions (not the script of course which made it fairly readable hed get his soul back). But character wise he was evil as hell and not going to take it anymore. I just hope they stay true to that and make Angelus really angelus and not just an angry Angel.
all i can say... by blckmgk13	Dec 11th, 2002 01:09:39 AM
HOLY FUCKADOODLE DO. okay that was shit. how about....ANGEL ROCKS THE CASBAH.... nope.... I KNOW! BUFFY DOESN"T HOLD A CANDLE TO THE SHIT REVEALED HERE! BOOYA!!!
Herc, you are a god by Custodes	Dec 11th, 2002 01:10:40 AM
WHOOO, thanks a lot. I mean, come on, I've been angel jiving for weeks now, and youve saved me good sir. G'day
Sorry, Angel blows! by 1013nomore	Dec 11th, 2002 01:13:01 AM
I liked Angel in the beginning, but this current season seems way too contrived and soap opera-ish. And the "only a dream" thing is another lame contrivance of a plot device. Something like it has already been done in the last year or so anyway! Repeating yourself is a bad sign! I'm glad I got the spoilers. Now I can skip the episodes with no worry I'm missing something. I'm not happy to be losing my interest in Angel. I wish it would get back on track. For me, the casting of the Connor character threw off the whole chemistry of the show.
I agree by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 01:38:34 AM
Connor sucks and is bringing down the show. I hope he dies soon. Admittedly, I don't like the character, but I'm willing to see what ME does with his storyline though. Except for that whole Connor/Cordy thing, that was just wrong and out of character for Cordelia. You know who else sucks? Gwen. That chick is just some up jumped mall chick who shouldn't be on TV. She's ugly, she's you-gly. Shes as bad as that BOP blonde girl. Really, pizza faced chicks in sagging vinyl have no place on TV. Other than those two, though, I do like the show. And those spoilers sound kind of interesting. I can't wait for Faith, maybe she'll take out Connor and Gwen. Oh, please, oh, please.
If I had it to do all over again... by Voice O. Reason	Dec 11th, 2002 01:58:38 AM
I'd still read those damn spoilers.
that is the stupidest reason for Angelus to return EVER! by RogueScribner	Dec 11th, 2002 02:03:03 AM
Since when can't Angel remember his Angelus days? WTF???!!! LAME!!! L8r
Gaaaaa! by Cory849	Dec 11th, 2002 02:03:46 AM
Herc! You evil bastard! I cannot look! And yet I cannot look away!! Why oh why did you do this to MEEEEEEEEEE?!?!?!
i guess it might help if i finish reading the spoilers by RogueScribner	Dec 11th, 2002 02:08:12 AM
It's all a dream? So not only is Angelus brought back for the stupidest reason ever, but this whole episode doesn't count for shit? WTF?! What, they didn't have enough story to move the plot forward before ED comes back? I hope this shit plays better on TV than the written word. Damn. L8r
You know who else sucks? by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 02:14:01 AM
Gunn. He bores me. Wes is the only truly interesting character on the show. They should make a show of he and Faith.
Holy spitballs Herc! by servaas1	Dec 11th, 2002 02:18:53 AM
You really have out done yourself! Allthough I'm a little scared for that last part. Angel is one of the top shows on right now but it does have a tendinsy to slow to a crawl every now and then...
I will be strong I will be strong I will be strong by coop	Dec 11th, 2002 02:29:54 AM
Damn you Herc. I didn't read the spoilers but I know they're there, calling me. If I can avoid looking at them for a week I think I will be able to avoid them altogether since they will be gone from the front page.
WHY!WHY!WHY! by BRTick	Dec 11th, 2002 03:09:56 AM
WHY? WHY? WHY did I read the damn spoilers! does Herc know what a enabler is? you just doen't put an addict in the same room as what he's addicted to, even if you hide in with inviso-text! I feel so dirty! why oh why couldn't I help myself!
HERC! by blckmgk13	Dec 11th, 2002 03:28:02 AM
why are you letting people reveal spoilers in the talkbacks?
Ep 4.10 = sucks. [No HOTPANTS here.] by Gellar's Ass	Dec 11th, 2002 03:51:08 AM
What the Hell. First amnesia, then amnesia again, now the "it was all a dream" fake-out. I guess Angelus can even be considered an Evil Twin of sorts. What's the next tired cliche that's going to get trotted out? ** I guess Angel couldn't remember his latest Angelus escapades before Buffy sent him to Hell in the end of Buffy season two, but he still remembers all the original Angelus stuff with Holtz and Darla and Spike and the Master and oh, the soul-wretching guilt. Why not the pact with the Beast? Weak. ** At least "Buffy" is kicking massive ass this season. Plus Dawn is ready for her HOTPANTS and all.
Sounds like Star Trek to me... by SG7	Dec 11th, 2002 04:15:40 AM

no, no.... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 04:43:59 AM
If it was like Star Trek, then the Beast would attack the hotel, causing lights and wall panels to explode and making the cast stumble back and forth across the lobby. The crew would then tell the computer to reroute emergency power to the lobby and Angel would replicate a six foot hoagie. He would then eat the hoagie in one bite, ala Shaggy. Then they would realign Angel's sensor array dish to emit a sustained tacheyon burst, causing the reversal of the Beast's gravametric rays and spinning himout of the space time continuium and out of existance.
No, Angel has remembered plenty of stuff by RogueScribner	Dec 11th, 2002 04:56:49 AM
He recognized the ballerina chick in WITW, his old protege in "Somnambulist", that old bounty hunter demon Boone in "Blood Money", et cetera, et cetera. The only thing Angel has been hazy on is his time in the hell dimension, and probably the bulk of his human life. The only angle I can see them playing is maybe Angel refuses to remember (like how Lorne refused to acknowledge or reiterate Cordy's vision), but that's still lame. It's all an excuse to bring Angelus back. Which is fine, but I really wish they could have come up with something better than Angelus knows something Angel doesn't. They don't switch brains when he loses a soul! L8r
Oh god these sound awful by Spike fan	Dec 11th, 2002 05:20:36 AM
The whole Angel cannot remember Angelus past sounds lame and forgets that was the whole point of the soul in the first place that he was cursed with it so he COULD remember and know guilt. Then there is the whole amnesia plot I guess there story is so poor they need to fill out space. ###### Hmm I wonder if these are the reasons that writer who was going to take over left. It was cited creative differences hell if this was the alternitive I would agree.#### As for charchters who should be killed off GUNN cause he does and adds nothing as a charachter should never have been made a reg in the first place and is just the token black guy SAD BUT TRUE. CORDY cause lets face it in terms of charachter they have gone in the worst direction with C/C and the show seems better with out the charachter there.Time to kill her off ### As for the main Angel charachter my main beef has always been that DB while probably a great guy and apparently quite egoless (unlike his female counter part on BtVS)is not strong or skilled enough as an actor for the role.I agree with the person who said Wesley is the best thing on the show right now. AD just steals every scene he is on
Great Amnesia plot lines of the Past... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 05:25:01 AM
Remember when Luke Duke fell out of the General Lee, hit his head on a rock and became Evil Luke Duke? He started wearing Red Flannel, instead of Blue, and was real aggressive with the ladies. That was a Damn Good Amnesia Plot Line of the Past
Ok but why wouldn't he just fuck her to begin with? by kingredrum	Dec 11th, 2002 08:40:57 AM
I mean really..if you have to lose your soul..wouldn't you rather do it by being dick deep in some lovely Cordelia Chase..why go the whole shaman route??
Herc! Why didn't you warn us not to read it!!! by Blacket-Man	Dec 11th, 2002 09:05:05 AM
Just kidding. Thanx for some nice juicy news for once.
Terrific by jerkstore	Dec 11th, 2002 09:14:34 AM
This is the best show on television, and if these spoilers are correct, it is going to stay that way. And to all you haters saying that the episode that Joss wrote this season is just a rehash of an old Buffy you could not be more wrong. In Buffy everyone lost their memories, in Angel they reverted to their high school age personas. Big difference
I have to agree, most of the time.... by FatXander	Dec 11th, 2002 09:28:03 AM
I agree with most people about Weasly. He is by far the best character on the show, they just need to hurry up and get him back in the group. Let's face it, Angel is just like Buffy as far as it's an ensemble show. If you take out willow, xander, and spike from buffy, the show is done. I don't know anyone that looks at buffy as thier favorite character. Same with Angel. The first season they nailed it, but they lost some steam in season 2 when he fired everyone. Most of last season sucked, and now this season has a chance to redeem itself. They need to make Angel the hero again, and get him to drop 20 pounds. Although i have a feeling that even though we all make fun of DB for being fat, most of us posting here are nowhere near pinups. Ah well. Now i just have to subsist on spoilers and my tapes until January.
Lara by RogueScribner	Dec 11th, 2002 09:35:10 AM
Angel was disoriented from having his soul restored, just like the first time it happened. At first he didn't know who or what he was, but after a while it all came rushing back. Hence, the guilt trip. If Angel didn't have memories of his past indiscretions then how could he be so broody? Another example: Spike got his soul restored. He remembers everything that happened before his visit with the cave demon. Why would Angel be any different? L8r
wow! by cordynharm	Dec 11th, 2002 09:36:19 AM
wish i had the power to not read these spoilers. they frickin' rock, and done ever so rightly even the "dream" episode can kick major ass. i have faith (no pun intended). ////////oh and do you think its a coincidence that both the vampires with souls once shared the same name???? william was spike's name in his human life and Liam (angel's name in human life) is the irish equivellant of william
Have to disagree by Mutant X22	Dec 11th, 2002 09:59:59 AM
I am really digging this season. I like the addition of Connor. I like to compare the Angel/Connor storyline to the Scott Summers/Madelyne Pryor/Cable story in X-Men, only done right the first time around. And if they ever decide to do a Batman movie, Connor get's my vote to play Dick Grayson. I too thank god for Wes and Lorne because they really do add alot to the show. But Fred and Gunn just never caught my interest. I just don't see what purpose they serve. Gunn has his moments where he actually does something worthwhile but Fred just annoys me. I came on board the show a few years ago when a friend recommended it to me and have steadily enjoyed the show every season and i havent been let down yet. It is definitely one of the few shows i really look forward to watching every week.
To: Qwerty Uiop by Manos	Dec 11th, 2002 10:53:24 AM
Now THAT was funny.
You know who sucks? You know bores me? Qwerty Uiop. Thats who. by BannthisUcommies	Dec 11th, 2002 11:02:32 AM

Didn't Dallas do this storyline once? by katherine	Dec 11th, 2002 11:05:24 AM
You know, Bobby Ewing woke up to find the the previous season had all been a dream? To discover that an entire episode will be nothing but a delusion makes me want to skip it all together. I need progress people! Closure! Satisfaction!
Gellars Ass and teri's Rape, why not get together? Teri Gellar's by BannthisUcommies	Dec 11th, 2002 11:08:48 AM
Ahhh so glad you both stopped by. Incessant bitching about characters is a great way to spend time. Plus you manage to hate all the good characters so it all works. Why don't you 2 just get a bowl of popcorn and watch a Day of Our Lives marathon? I hear Marlena is the devil or something. ****** All twits aside, this show fucking rules. Oh and kill off Fred. Shes just faking the physics stuff. :::::)
He loses his soul from a wet dream? by Alex Rogan	Dec 11th, 2002 11:10:59 AM
I guess the real question is how is he going to get it back. I would love to see Wes kill Lilah and become the head of W&H but it doesn't look like that is where it's going to go.
Angels memory by ThingsThatTimDog	Dec 11th, 2002 11:15:48 AM
It was establish in some episode that Angels memories of what he did as Angelus slowly come back to him over a period of time. Thats why he didnt remember what he did to Buffy. He remembered when he returned in season 3. ****As far as a pac he forged as Angelus there might be another explanation like magic. He has probably done far more than his fair share of repression of his past.
Qwerty- by RenoNevada2000	Dec 11th, 2002 11:18:27 AM
I can't seem to remember any amnesia storylines. Oh the irony...
to Rogue: by 93curr	Dec 11th, 2002 11:36:13 AM
Ummm, dude, you got it all wrong. Lorne wasn't freaked out by Cordy's vision -he got a glimpse of the evil horror that was Connor and Cordy. And it was so horrible that he couldn't even begin to contemplate it.
This show just isn't what I originally started watching by Drath	Dec 11th, 2002 12:55:18 PM
I think I'm done with Angel. All the things I liked such as Angel's redemption and vampire family, his rivalry with Lindsey and WRH, his relationship to women like Kate and "Anne" and Faith and Darla and Drusilla, have been swept away and replaced by really dumb ideas like Elecro lass, an insto-teen son, a contrived romance with Cordelia, her screwing his son so he can be a man, Saint Cordy, and skinny Fred doing an immasculated Gunn. The few things that work now are being eliminated like the Lilah/Wes affair and her increasing power in WRH. I though Lilah was going to go after Connor. "Mrs. Robinson." What happened to that? It sounded great! WRH is gone now? They're supposed to be hell on earth, ultimate evil, and some Tim Curry from Legend drag queen clown comes along and wipes them out? And suddenly Angel has conveniently forgotten this guy from his Angelus days? Screw this! Maybe the fans who got into this show in season 3 can enjoy it, but I feel like I wasted my time sticking with this show from the beginning.
all of you suck my ass by spikeulus	Dec 11th, 2002 01:32:09 PM
this is the best show on t.v. buffy fucking sucks now. the spike thing is stupid. and to explain the angel thing. he went to fucking hell for 100 years you would forget also. dumbasses.
My geek life is complete: SammyG to direct Angel by GypsyTRobot	Dec 11th, 2002 01:46:33 PM
Yeah that's right, Samwise Gamgee AKA pudgy servant hobbit to Frodo Baggins, AKA Sean Astin, son of Patty Duke and (nonbiologically) John Astin (AKA Gomez Addams), set to direct an episode of Angel called "Soulless." Check it out: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire /art-main.html?2002-12/09/12.3 0.tv
Weak plotting? by GypsyTRobot	Dec 11th, 2002 01:49:38 PM
I'm sure it'll be fun and all, but this stuff with the shaman sounds like something out of a Charmed episode. Why not have Angel sleep with Cordy or electro-girl (who BTW Qwerty, she's not THAT skanky, I think you'd thank your lucky stars if she tried to jumpstart you.) And the Beast is collecting 5 totems to keep the sun from shining? This sounds like a video game quest for anti-heroes with a plot stolen from Montgomery Burns.
Is it just me? by Amazing Kreskin	Dec 11th, 2002 02:12:50 PM
Or has everyone on the show just fogotten about Sahjan, and the fact that Connor's supposed to kill him?
just a thought... by blckmgk13	Dec 11th, 2002 02:14:58 PM
did angel remember how he got out of the hell dimension after Buffy stabbed him with the sword? All i can remember was that he could have spent hundreds or thousands of years in the hell dimension. Is it at all possible that he made a deal with this Beast in that hell dimension in order to get out of the hell dimension. Think of it, Angel in Hell dimension finds an all powerful demon that could let him out. Angel believing he can't have kids but preying on demon's weaknesses for babies makes the following deal, "HEY BEAST! IF YOU LET ME OUT OF HERE, YOU CAN HAVE MY FIRST BORN SON!" Beast:"REALLY? THAT WOULD BE GREAT. IHAVE SUCH A HUNGER FOR NEWBORNS.OKAY, SIGN HERE." Angel signs, Beast says: "OKAY HERE IS THE DOOR. HAVE A GOOD DAY AND REMEMBER TO SHOP SMART, SHOP S-MART, oh and don't forget our deal!" ANgel runs through door laughing, "HA HA SUCKER! I CAN'T HAVE KIDS" and Angel runs away. BEAST just grins and thinks to himself, "Wait and see young padawan, wait and see."
lets see where the hell this post ends up... by FatXander	Dec 11th, 2002 02:31:57 PM
First; spikulus, your a moron. I really wish I could express myself in such an intelligent and articulate manner./////kingredrum, as we've all discussed before, it isnt sex that robs angel of his soul, it's the happiness. Thats why fucking Darla didn't steal his soul. He had to have the whole make up scenario with wes, connor and cordy to make the sex an act of love, therefore happiness. Even if he had really fucked cordy, he still had all those other issues in his life. The dream actually makes sense if you look at it that way.//// and finally, Blackmagic13 actually made an interesting point. It's very possible Angel tapped into Angelus to survive hell. Remember how crazy he was when he came back? It may be one of those things Angelus would remember because he liked hell. Of course to do that they have to get rid of the whole "meeting him in the 1700's" that is a little weak.
godrefla and GypsyTRobot by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 03:10:30 PM
Didn't Michael Long go evil and drive KARR one time? I seem to remember an evil goatee in one episode. Either way that was a Great Amnesia Plot Line of the Past. ** Gypsy, believe me, Gwen IS that skanky and if she tried to "jump my bones" I'd say the same thing to her that I would to any skanky, drunk, pizza faced, nasty ass chick that was trying to slobber all over me. And that would be get fucking lost. That
Strange by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 04:00:12 PM
I bumped my head back in college once and grew a goatee. I've since shaved the horrid thing off, but does that mean that I'm my evil amnesiac twin?
Smallville amnesia by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 04:02:37 PM
While Lana didn't hit her head and therefore didn't technically suffer from TV amnesia, I did enjoy her evil twin. I think parading around in their underwear and being a wanton slut is the female version of the evil goattee. Thoughts?
Angel , Spike and memory by warlock411	Dec 11th, 2002 05:13:23 PM
The reason both Angel and Spike have memorys of both human and vampire life is simple. Both Spike and Angel were vampires that had there Soul returned to them. The Soul did not replace the Deamon that had possion of thier bodies, Both Deamon and Soul now reside in them , so they remember everything .
spikefan by jello1235	Dec 11th, 2002 05:38:16 PM

spikefan by jello1235	Dec 11th, 2002 05:38:16 PM

spikefan's comment by jello1235	Dec 11th, 2002 05:41:26 PM
Spikefan, I agree with you about Gunn to a certain extent. Yes, his character adds nothing to the show as of this moment which is ashamed because he is one of the only characters on the show without a firmly established background. similiar to the way Angel always pops off with stuff from his past (meeting the rat pack) Gunn could do the same type of stuff. But, he is wasted. And I think the only reason people seem to be digging Wesley is because he's shown the greatest amount of change. And I hope Gwen comes back for more than just an episode because she is a pretty cool character also.
....AUUUGH! MY EYES! by deftone	Dec 11th, 2002 05:57:19 PM
A few points: 1-I have to point out that despite Herc's warning, I read these anyway. DAMM, DAMM and FUCK! The final episode was something that could have actually, for the first time, SHOCKED and surprised me. I have been spoiled for EVERYTHING for Buffy/Angel since this time last year, and this is the first time in a long while I think ME would have actually shocked me to my toes. (Had I been unspoiled) 2) Wordy McWorderson to whomever said the part about Cordy. I loved her. I idolized her. She was my happy little evilbitchflower on Buffy, and on Season One Angel. Now....St. Cordy. 3) Goddammit but Connor's cute, so the more screen time for him the better. MMMMfaith.
Blkmgc I like it by ThingsThatTimDog	Dec 11th, 2002 06:27:12 PM
Seems like a plausible reason for his escape from hell and not knowing the Beast. I would like to see the sun blottyness spread to Sunnydale too. Joss needs to do some show tieins and screw WB.
I suspect there is more going on than we know in the spoilers, a by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 07:27:24 PM
specifically as to why Angel can't remember this supposed pact. One thought I had - what if the pact Angelus makes isn't in the past - rather, the Angelus from this time travels back in time to make said pact, or something along the lines of that. Just a thought. In anycase, I do like where the season is going. And I like Connor. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If I recall Qwerty, your biggest fear about connor was him and Angel turning into some kind of Batman and robin duo - what about having Connor jump ship to the other show, permantly. Or the new show? Oh, and for the record, for everyone CONNOR DOESN'T WHINE!!!!!!
He doesn't have the voice inflection by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 07:28:43 PM
and its definatly not nasal enough
Entilzha by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 08:48:55 PM
I'd much rather have Connor die. Sacrifice himself or something, then Angel can go back to being dark and brooding. Mark my words, an Angel/Connor reconcilliation will only lead this show to the dump. ** And for the person who asked if Connor and Cordy did it. Yes, they did. During the Apocalypse, no less. Nevermind that their job is saving the world from that kind of thing. But yes, they really did bone.
And... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 08:49:52 PM
Connor does whine, even Herc notices.
Who says they need to reconcile when he leaves by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 08:52:40 PM
He could boot Connor out of Los Angelus like he's booted other people out as well - Lindsey, and Buffy to a degree. One fanfic I've been following starts at the end of Apocolypse Nowish, and more or less has Angel confronting Connor and Cordy, and he gets booted out of the city. He doesn't have to be dead to leave, and he doesn't have to be dead to return Angel to dark and Broody, although I prefer where they have taken Angel.
Well, herc has seen the ep by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 08:54:22 PM
maybe Vincent finally got some nasal action going on. In anycase, I wouldn't be surprized if Herc doesn't know a true whine when he sees it - There are very few whine conessuers out there
He doesn't have to be dead by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 08:56:35 PM
but he should be. Just like Cable, Connor sucks as a character. And anywhere he goes the main storyline would be the wacky misadventures of the "Destroyer" as he tries to fit in with the world at large, or date some reporter chick, and end every episode with him fighting some monster. The only show Connor belongs on is Birds of Prey. At least there his incredible suckage won't be as noticeable.
whining by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 08:58:04 PM
you say potatoe, I say potato.
You see the thorn, I see the rose by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 09:05:17 PM
Your definition of whining tends to be complaints by anyone of the young age. As for his character sucking, well, why don't you like him then? I know your complaints about Connor and Angel hanging around together (complaints I very much disagree with, but I'll leave that aside for the moment), but what in particular don't you like about his character?
And,. actually, its by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 09:06:58 PM
you say po-tA-toe, I say po-tah-toe. Unless your Dan Quayle, and spell it potatoe
yes, I realize that by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 09:29:53 PM
It was written out version of the saying that plays much better verbally.
my complaints about Connor by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 09:30:34 PM

my complaints about Connor by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 11th, 2002 09:47:00 PM
have nothing to do with young people complaining or his age, except for the whole baby now/teenager the next day thing. Yes, I'm familiar with the storyline and how it happened, but it
PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! by Buff_Angel	Dec 11th, 2002 09:51:03 PM
Let Connor be one of the people with a totem inside him and the BEAST kill his whiney, brooding, stupid, bratty ass. That would explain the connection to Connor.
Again, talking about the character, NOT interactions by Entilzha Proph	Dec 11th, 2002 10:58:17 PM
Actually, there was another dimension added, at least I thought, that was good - The whole unplanned pregnancy and whatnot - I've always viewed that as a more adult storyline that was well pulled off. Next, I am not talking about what he brings to the other characters - I am talking about the character himself. You've never address him, alone. That is what I want you to address. Also, you can't blame him for Cordy's "uncharacteristic sex" (Something I disagree with) and not give him credit for the direction wes went. Wes's development couldn't have happened without Connor. But, what I want, is your complaints about Connor specificially - Not your complaints about interaction between him and Cordy, or any POTENTIAL interaction between him and angel (because tearful reunion HASN'T happened yet), but about the character himself. And I do have a small request - Stop with the X-men comparision - I know enough to know who Cable is (or at least a little about him) but I never really got into X-men, so stop with the comparisson
Hey genius, the term "token black guy" relevance has nothing to by Gheorghe Zamfir	Dec 11th, 2002 11:31:47 PM
Do you mean to say if Friends added one black character this season you couldn't say he's just a token character because the show is set in NY? That's ridiculous. Because the show is set in LA is exactly why they decided to add a black character, and that's his only job, to be the black character on Angel - hence, token black guy - I could give a fuck if its set in LA, Gunn's only job is to pretend that the show is diverse.
Connor, Connor, quite contrary, why are you so fucking lame? by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 01:56:59 AM
I think a major part of a character's worth is measured in part by what he brings to the ensemble's dynamic. And I agree that Wes's development couldn't have happened without Connor, but my point in not attributing it to him was because the baby wasn't a problem in the same way the older Connor is and if the baby had never returned, Wes's development would still have happened. And when I refer to
Hey NewYorkKid! by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 01:58:36 AM
Black people live other places BESIDES L.A. And this includes Kansas.
Wooden acting and X-men comparison by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 03:00:53 AM
Qwert, the main reason I ask you stop doing the X-men comparison is cause I know almost nothing about X-men - I know Cable is Jean Grey and Cyclops's son, but thats about it. Unless you wanna give me a full nine yards. Not saying its a bad comparison - Just that it'd be like me comparing something I saw on West wing to my sister's fiance - He doesn't watch the show (and can't stand it, for what reason I don't get). Basically, I don't know anything beyond him being Cyclop and Jean Grey's son. Thats all I am saying on that front - Unless you wanna give me the 411 on Cabel, it ain't helping your arguement, cause I don't know about him. As for blaming him for the Cordy scene, thats fine, I am just saying, then he also deserves credit for Wes's development - Even as a baby, he was still a character :D. The point is you can't dissassociate baby Connor from old connor. Finally, focusing on the older character himself - I do agree that he hasn't done much besides those 3. But, I would argue thats more to writing than to his acting, and really, its not that the writing is bad - its that he has lack any real writing. I mean, what has he really done? He's fought, he's gotten frustred, he's sat and brooded, and he's run around - Not much to do there. Thats why I don't think we can write him off - He's added nothing because the writers haven't done anything with him, and I definatly think they could do some things with him. Yes, I know, your all about the Connor/Angel reunion, but I have offered various ways they could do something other than the tearful reunion. Oh, and for the record, I like the new Star Wars movies. IMHO, if VK was given an Episode like Dawn got in Blood Ties or Real Me, we'd see him and his character shine - the problem is, we haven't seen said ep. Oh, and NewYorkKid, I'd argue your more likely to see a Token Black Character on a city show than a small town show, because "we need a diverse cast" whether there is a point to the diversity or not. Mind you, Im all for diversity, but network execs don't alway understand how to tie diversity into good writing as well
Faith + HOTPANTS - spoilers = Good. by Gellar's Ass	Dec 12th, 2002 03:05:39 AM
I'm rather glad there aren't any Faith spoilers in here. I'm fully expecting the Faith storylines on both "Angel" and "Buffy" to be quite good and I'd rather not get spoiled in advance. While the spoilers posted here are pretty heavy, I don't consider it much of a loss. If anything, I'm glad I don't have to wait until February to find out one of the episodes was all just a dream. ** I also agree using a shaman to get Angelus doesn't make sense. Just nail Cordelia or Buffy. ** Or now that Dawn is the same age as Buffy was, how about sampling the youngest Summers? Hell, she's allegely made out of Buffy, and she's practially still in her original wrapper. I say it's time to break her in. NO, not really. Sure nobody cared that a 240-year-old Angel was sneaking smoochies with 15-year-old Buffy, but a 244-year-old fatter Angel hooking up with 15-year-old Dawn of HOTPANTS, Buffy 2.0... nope, can't have that. Pity.
Actually, I can think of a couple of reasons said boink is not a by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 03:27:34 AM
1. Buffy's not gonna wanna open herself up to the pain that would cause (and of course there is that whole other network thing, but leave that aside for now :D) 2. Cordy may be pissed over the whole Gwen issue, and might not be willing to sleep with him. 3. A fear that it mightn't work with Cordy. To quote a fanfic " I have sex with her and lose my soul, I torture, maim, and kill her, thus ruining our friendship. I have sex with her and don't lose my soul, she's insulted, thus ruining our friendship." 4. Other major point - Espicially after reprise and eppipheny, I am inclined to think that the sex has to be sex about love, with no strings attached - ie the sex has to be purely an expression of love. And since there is another motive here, that kinda defeats the possiblity of it being just an expression of love.
Cyclops and The Goblin Queen by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 03:42:34 AM
Well, actually, if I remember right, Cable was Madelyn Pryor and Scott's son. Madelyn was a clone of Jean or some shit. Anyway, he got some virus and was sent to the future as a baby to be healed, then came back as this lame old fucker with a bunch of guns and commenced to start sending X-men continuity into a nearly unrecoverable tailspin. The point being that its story parallels Connor's origin, hence the comparison. And I
The main problem with boink-a-thon by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 03:43:56 AM
at least I think is the unknown - Obviously it requires sex and love, but its quite possibly it could require something more, in which case, they may not know. And they are dealing with a time issue, so experimentation is out of the window. I suspect though part of it has to do with Cordy not wanting to get Angelus involved
I think the main problem is... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 03:46:28 AM
Who would voluntarily have sex with a guy for the sole purpose of making him a crazy ass killer. What if it happens while you're still pinned underneath him?
We clearly dont' have all the story, even with these spoilers by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 03:49:52 AM
So I think your assumption that they are unconnected is rather un-realistic and un-warrented. As for not understanding the ramifications, well, I'd disagree. I am curious though - what if they do go in a direction that isn't Father and Son bonding?? Do you think he would still suck? Also, what pray tell was wrong with the new Star Wars movies?
There is that point, Qwerty, however by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 03:51:28 AM
The change didn't happen instantaniously, and assuming Angel and Cordy wouldn't mind doing a bit of Exhibition, well, it COULD work.
I'll give Joss this, by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 05:29:16 AM
Is that on more than one occasion I've been plesantly surprised as to which direction he takes his shows, so I'm willing to wait and see. After all, I've been watching since the beginning, so they must do something right for me. If they somehow make Connor an interesting character, then I will re-evaluate my opinion of him, not to mention, quickly dropping my pants so that all the monkeys flying out of my butt don't ruin my new jeans. If they make good use of him, then I'd probably like the character, but still dislike the actor, much like how I feel about Angel. ** And maybe its me, but I don't think its an orgasm that triggers Angel's change, its what the act symbolized between he and Buffy that triggered it.
What is wrong with the new Star Wars movies? by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 05:30:53 AM
Thats a whole other TalkBack, man.
Well then Qwerty, by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 05:40:00 AM
I kindly suggest (in the most polietest terms) to shut up and wait for the rest of the story :D As for the Star Wars movies, well, of that there is no doubt. BTW, is anyone else getting sick of the tongue action going on in the upper left corner??
hey! by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 06:22:04 AM
You were the one that brought up Connor tonight. I was minding my own business, reminiscing with the kids about Evil Luke Duke and Knight Rider and Lana Lang in her underwear and you asked me. Tell me to shut up, I'll shut up when I want to shut up, thinkin' you're the boss of me, I
Don't be so sure by Entilzha Proph	Dec 12th, 2002 06:41:39 AM
In my contract, it clearly states I am the boss of you. Section 5, part A, subsection D "Entilzha Proph has clear authority over Qwerty" :D
Angels soul by Norsk	Dec 12th, 2002 06:43:48 AM
Angel need perfect happiness. In this case he and Wesley makes up,his son starts to not hate him and him and cordelia make love, not fuck. he has to be as happy as he can get. and what about this, Angelus and Connor fights,Angelus drains and kill connor and right afterwards he gets his soul back. Should be enough brooding for the rest of the shows extincense..
Oh by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 12th, 2002 07:34:01 AM
Well, I can see your misunderstanding, because my name is Qwerty Uiop, not Qwerty. Don't worry, s'all good.
I'm actually waiting by Scorebird	Dec 12th, 2002 07:23:54 PM
to see Lorne get Connor to sing David Cassidy's "I Think I Love You"(and get it over with)so he can tell Connor's future. HeHeHe ;)
money 4 smg by lottie276	Dec 13th, 2002 07:47:19 AM
does anyone know just how much money smg has been offered to make s8 in buffy. I think that if she leaves they should take all the characters that don't want to and put them in Angel. As I am in the deprived country (england) i havent seen any of s4 Angel but it sounds great!!!!
Perfect happiness...so let me get this straight by kingredrum	Dec 13th, 2002 11:31:56 AM
So with the "perfect happiness" deal..that basically means Angel could boff Cordelia until his little vampire soul burst..but as long as he's worried about some unpaid bill or has an outstanding grudge with Wesley he doesn't lose his soul..is that what we're saying? Doesn't sound like much of a curse to me..boff away
My trouble with Connor by Drath	Dec 14th, 2002 01:02:01 AM
I don't have big problems with the actor like Qwerty does. I don't even hate the character really, which is probably to the actor's credit more than anything else. I just don't find this sullen prodical son bit particularly interesting. What really bugs me(apart from the Cordy thing), is that Connor's story line has been rushed since the teenaged version appeared. Last season we only got to know him in the last four episodes--during which time he hated his father, then liked him, but then was manipulating him, then was purged of evilness(boy I hated that one) and reconciled, then was tricked by Holtz into hating his dad again, then manipulates dad yet again and betrays him with Justine. It wasn't boring, but I could not get into the character either. He was mostly something Angel had to survive. It felt like a nightmare that hopefully the PTB would swallow up like that day Angel shared with Buffy way back. This year isn't much better. Like Qwerty says, he's mostly just being used as a way to make his own father jealous(hello Eodipus, you mofo). We could have used an entire episode dealing with Connor on the streets and trying to figure out who he's going to be or at least an entire episode that could show us what his life's been like--ah, with Kung Fu like flashbacks to Hell dimension Holtz teaching him...or maybe not. I needed the time to get to know HIM and to feel this kid is worth our time as much as his dad, and more importantly to forgive him for all the bad things he'd done to our main characters. That stuff with the addict girl last season should only have been the start of getting to know Connor on his own, instead it's our biggest insight into his character to date--only his betraying his father later undermined any sympathy that storyline had earned anyway! Admittedly, due to a shitty VCR, I did not get to see his scenes in the Fred's evil professor episode, so can anyone tell me if Connor explains why he still hates his father now that he knows Holtz and Justine had tricked him? Is it because he's hated Angel so long he's not sure how to do anything else? I hope something like that was put forward, because his "well still" reaction in the season premiere was very lame. That along with being a lying freeloader relfects badly on him more than anything else. Maybe we're just not supposed to like Connor, but if that's the game I think it's a mistake. We should want Angel and Connor to reconcile more than anything, and for that to work we have to like the son as much as the father. Admittedly, they had Connor play it too smug in the beginning, and maybe that's the big misfire in his characterization so far. Maybe they should have shown some positive interaction with other AI members and not being such a little shit(I still think he should form a frienship with Lorne since they started off not liking each other so much). Maybe Wes should have taken Connor in ealier this season, and that could have been a spring board for understanding both of them and their feelings of alienation. I certainly needed to like Connor before Cordelia slept with him. I needed to see what SHE saw in him for that to work. This summary of the next few episodes is enough to make me take a hiatus until whatever comes next happens. I don't really want to go through that much plot to get the Angelus and Connor. It would be ironic if Angelus appears to sincerely love Connor more than hate him. That was always the detail that made Buffyverse villains so great, their unexpected human traits. It was very interesting to watch the Master being comforted by the Annointed after Darla's death, or Spike's sincere love for Drusilla, or the Mayor's fatherly affection for Faith--which she dearly needed. It'd be good to see more of that on Angel--what with the last of the good villains about to be wiped out.
correction by Drath	Dec 14th, 2002 01:10:06 AM
Actually, the bit with the addict girl wasn't the biggest insight to date, that's just hyperbole. But I think we could sympathize with him more in that scene because he's been such a brat since then. His occasional "Robin saves the day" scenes mostly feel like watered down versions of the addict girl's rescue.
sort of dissapointed by almost kind	Dec 15th, 2002 02:56:59 AM
Am I the only one sort of disapointed that Cordy and Connor was just a one time thing? I don't know why, but in the past few weeks they've really grown on me. Now don't get me wrong, i'm still all big with the Cordy/Angel shippiness, but I think Cordy/Connor would add interesting spice to the show. Amking Angel all jeleous. And then when he becomes Angelus, can be all vengeful on Connor and Cordy. Just a thought. Also, i've noticed, like the rest of you, Fred and Gunn starting to fall apart. I really hope Joss doesn't do that. I just love Gunn/Fred. I don't know why, but they're just so perfect for each other. Besides, the only other person that could put Fred with is Wesly, and that's a big no no on my list. I dig the Wes/Lilah thing. It's very kinky and very sexy. I say "Keep the Wes/Lilah-ness!"
i'm wondering.. by dblover16	Dec 15th, 2002 03:21:41 AM
if Spike has his soul back, does that mean that he can't have sex with anyone? and if he can, why didn't angel know about this cave demon? after all, he is about 130 years older than spike.
Drath and dblover16 by Entilzha Proph	Dec 15th, 2002 06:34:48 AM
Drath - I agree with you he needs to be developed a whole lot. Connor has spent too much time in this perpetual limbo, and its definatly hurting his character. I suspect thats most peoples problem with him. Actually, I think a great Connor center-ep would be him in some sorta trance/dream state, where he meets and talks with Darla as human, and Darla as vamp, and comes out more sure of himself. But that would definatly make for an interesting ep. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - rumors/possible spoilers ahead - skip if you don't want em - dblover16, from what I have heard, spike doesn't suffer from said problem that angel suffers from. But don't know for certain
It would have been great if by Drath	Dec 15th, 2002 10:11:31 PM
Connor had been shown protecting Gunn and Fred while Angel was underwater. Better yet, protecting them without their knowledge so that we'd know it wasn't another lie. Then, when Fred turned on him and zapped him with the tazer, it would have had more gravitas because Connor did care about her and wasn't lying about that. I think you're right Connor meeting Darla in a dream or vision would be good for him and for us--there's a lot still to be explored with them. I'm not sure how it would make him more confident. Maybe if it was the spirit of the real Darla visiting him so that we could learn a little more about her too. Maybe it would help Connor to learn his parents shared a genuine love despite everything they were. You gotta figure Hotlz told him daily that he was the spawn of evil, that his parents were monsters who were incapable of love, and you gotta figure that warped the kid a little. If Darla and Angel were humanized for Connor he might think differently about himself. Of course, maybe Holtz told him he was beautiful and touched him funny--there's just a lot we still need to know about this boy before we engage in a fight with the Beast and Angelus.
Not more cofident per se by Entilzha Proph	Dec 15th, 2002 11:25:45 PM
But more developed. More fleshed out. Right now he is kinda nothing more than a walking plot device (something I am definatly willing to acknowledge). Actually, another possiblity which would've been awesome would've been during Deep Down, a dream sequence between him, Holtz, and Darla. Hell, they could still do that - would definatly be a good episode
I think by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 15th, 2002 11:32:51 PM
Connor should meet a girl and fall in love with her, but shes actually a W&H assasin and then she kills him.
Yes, Qwerty, we know by Entilzha Proph	Dec 16th, 2002 09:56:57 AM
you don't like Connor, and have no intention of giving him a chance. Enough already
Maybe his assasin girlfriend could throw him off a roof. by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 16th, 2002 10:41:12 PM
or tie him up in a car and have it compacted. That would be great.
Qwerty, no I just know by Entilzha Proph	Dec 17th, 2002 09:17:56 AM
your trying to get under my skin
Just imagine by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 17th, 2002 03:07:45 PM
The amount of whining that would come from that car compacter as it squeezed shut...
Qwety by Entilzha Proph	Dec 17th, 2002 04:09:18 PM
wasn't it you making all the DB is fat jokes? Go back to that please
CAN U DIG IT!!!!!!?????? by Genome	Dec 17th, 2002 06:06:56 PM
whoa. its been a while since i read these TBs. but all i can say rite now is, 4 u ppl who think that gunn is just a token black guy? well u can take that and shove it, really, who gives a fuck? i dont need 2 be hearing dat a black guy in a show is only there cuz of his skin color and a false sense of diversity and acceptance. whether or not that is true is another issue, but dont be wasting space and time wrtiting up posts jus 2 say hes there outta sympathy. In everyshow ders good characters and ders bad ones. so gunns character has been a lil dejected, doesnt mean anything, jus means that joss oughta start thinking more bout the supporting cast.
qwerty is it? and the rest of u by Genome	Dec 17th, 2002 06:22:00 PM
now, i can get on with wat i really wanted 2 say. 1st, true DB did put on wght, n i still cringe whenever the camera enhances this fact. but 4 those of u that dont like DB, STFU! go suck on a cow. Connor, now thats a character that sucks. and that guy that keeps preaching that Electro gal is skanky? ... wat? u think the world is fucking made of victoria secret models? shes good looking! maybe not the picture of perfection in your strange and unnattainable fantasy, but she pretty damn close! And the angelus/angel story line? ur entertained arent u? wid this monster called angelus, in the end u will tune in 2 c if said monster will kill the entire supporting cast, or grab a dorito and sing "genie in a bottle" b4 impaling himself on a butter knife?...so STFU! u cudnt direct a TV show if they handed u a script and a magic wand. now stop being such a nerd/looser/jackass/a$$hole. go out and do sumthin. come back, watch and appreciate angel for wat it really is...a good, worthwhile, entertaining and well executed "TV SHOW!!!!"......fuck the free world...i out
Genome, a couple of things by Entilzha Proph	Dec 17th, 2002 08:13:20 PM
1) Please don't write in sounds/aolies, of the type that scared tara away from the internet. Please? For the sake of my sanity. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2) I am a little confused about your complaints about Gunn, and the discussion around him. I will say this much - the way I always perceive whether an african American character is suffering from TBC status is to compare them to Dule Hill (I think thats his name), who plays Charles Young, the presidents body man on The West Wing - If the character can hold his own to Charlie, then he is definatly not suffering from TBC status. And I don't think Gunn is entirely suffering from TBC. I do think they need to tighten him in a little more, but I'd say thats true of the majority of the show. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3) Whats wrong with Connor? Why don't you like him?
oh the fun of the posting genie by Entilzha Proph	Dec 17th, 2002 08:14:13 PM
Stupid piece of
genome by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 18th, 2002 02:10:47 AM
Why do you type in an accent? Thats just crazy.
Reposted - Genome by Entilzha Proph	Dec 18th, 2002 02:12:26 AM
due to the stupid tb genie 1) Please don't write in sounds/aolies, of the type that scared tara away from the internet. Please? For the sake of my sanity. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2) I am a little confused about your complaints about Gunn, and the discussion around him. I will say this much - the way I always perceive whether an african American character is suffering from TBC status is to compare them to Dule Hill (I think thats his name), who plays Charles Young, the presidents body man on The West Wing - If the character can hold his own to Charlie, then he is definatly not suffering from TBC status. And I don't think Gunn is entirely suffering from TBC. I do think they need to tighten him in a little more, but I'd say thats true of the majority of the show. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 3) Whats wrong with Connor? Why don't you like him?
Entilzha Proph, everyone by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 18th, 2002 02:16:11 AM
Connor's number fan.
What do you want from Qwerty? by Entilzha Proph	Dec 18th, 2002 02:24:39 AM
I just see a lot of potential there for stories. That, and I've always had a soft spot for kids who have weird beginnings. And a hopeless romantic. So yea, I am a big fan of his character and Dawn's character. Never claimed otherwise
And I am sorry by Entilzha Proph	Dec 18th, 2002 02:25:42 AM
if I get annoyed at people for not giving things a chance - I do kinda take that personally (and its not just character in a story, its everything, from ideas, to people, to flavors of jelly :D )
Ask not what qwert y can do for you.... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 18th, 2002 02:28:01 AM
Ah, Entilzah. Connor loves you.
waahhhhh!!! I want Qwerty to love me by Entilzha Proph	Dec 18th, 2002 02:29:28 AM
:D
I know, I know by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 18th, 2002 02:49:00 AM
I AM extremely attractive and charismatic, after all.
wat accent? by Genome	Dec 18th, 2002 11:19:03 PM
wat is the problem with connor? well if JW knew that he'd noe how to make him better now wudnt he? i think its simply that there hasnt been enuff done with him in terms of character development. we know what he is, but not who he is and that is what decides whether or not the viewers can relate to a character or not. we've seen what he's done, and sumtimes hints at his motives, but nothin more. personal convictions perhaps? moral beliefs? limits to wat he will or wont do...he is surprising flexible at this. so all in all, connors character comes off a bit mundane and overall uninteresting unless JW or whoevers writing the next few eps decides to finally let us in on the mystery that is connor.
Genome by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 19th, 2002 05:19:33 AM
Oh, I thought you were typing like that on purpose, but that would just be stupid. So two words, my man: Spell check, big time, spell check.
Angel is so fat... by Qwerty Uiop	Dec 20th, 2002 12:26:46 AM
He has his own moon.

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