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Hercules The Strong Gives The Last BUFFY of Sweeps 4.5 Stars!!

Where did the TB go?? by Anyawatcher	Nov 26th, 2002 09:50:57 PM
was it erased in the bombing of CTU LA?
the Watcher's base-SPOILERS AHEAD by Forget_Byron	Nov 26th, 2002 09:54:50 PM
Maybe its just me but I watched that watcher's scene at the end of the ep, and the building at the start of it didn't look anything remotely like the one that exploded at the end of it. So either, it was a different building, or somebody at ME wasn't paying attention.
new tb! by el oso	Nov 26th, 2002 09:55:29 PM
so what of it, are all the watchers dead? they went out rather unceremoniously, although that speech about being captains of their souls seemed like a dead giveaway to impending doom.
The First by Hostile_17	Nov 26th, 2002 10:09:23 PM
Did they actually mention the First Evil in this episode, or just The First? Because at the end when they bring out the real vampire I thought back to an episode in another season, I think it was Season 5 where they talk about The First. The story was that before all of the demons left this plane, a purebred demon vampire bit a human and mixed their blood. So all the vampires on Earth are not pure demon like the vampire that bit a human, The First Vampire. I think when they're talking about the First, they're referring to the first vampire, not the first evil. That would make more sense because isn't Angel supposed to fight the First Evil? Anywho, that's just my theory. What does everyone else think?
the watchers council hq was destroyed by allnamesaretaken	Nov 26th, 2002 10:09:50 PM
DUH! Looks like Joss plans on killing all the recurring characters this season,but.....GILES IS NOT DEAD!
Was Selfless that garbage episode full of teen angst? by DomisInnerChild	Nov 26th, 2002 10:10:16 PM
Man, I think that was the worst episode ever. Worse than Beer Bad. It was so freaking predictable and slow. I was waiting for Buffy or Xander to kill the blonde and get it over with every time she started whining about how she was going to die and there was nothing they could do. Oh well, I liked Conversations with Dead People.
the old talk back is still up,why did herc make a new one? by allnamesaretaken	Nov 26th, 2002 10:11:30 PM
and Selfless was the Anya episode.
I don't think they're dead by Forget_Byron	Nov 26th, 2002 10:12:04 PM
Really, it didn't seem like the two scenes were connected. To tell the truth, it felt like something that was hurriedly put together at the last minute, especially since the building layout changed! And oh man, I am so pissed, I can't believe they're just leaving us hanging about Giles. At least with Wesley, they showed his should-have-been-dead body laying in the park. Maybe its a sign that since they didn't show Giles, he got away unscathed, though I can't see how. I watched that scene in slow motion about 12 times. The ax looks like its off-center a bit, but its coming so fast, Giles at least loses an arm, if not his head. And I think tonight's reference when Warren says he can't yet take physical form may mean he will assume Giles form later on, though I still find that incredibly hard to believe.
Wanna see what a real vampire looks like? by Randy Giles	Nov 26th, 2002 10:18:38 PM
Jesus fucking Christ, Whedon. Get your swerve on.
K, Big Bad Fetishists, U Got Your BIG BAD by Mr. Smegma	Nov 26th, 2002 10:20:34 PM
Big enuf? Bad enuf? And I knew that principal was evil. Now what? Seriously. Does Buffy bust in and save Spike, with some well-placed Scoob help? Haven't seen that before. Anya has to bite it somewhere along the way, and why has Willow totally sworn off magic in the face of murderous onslaught? Must've happened sometime offscreen after the frat house giant bug zappage. Lotsa loose and dangling ends to tie up.......
Anyone tape it? by Funkaboo	Nov 26th, 2002 10:48:56 PM
I'd be willing to pay for the shipping of a clean copy of tonight's epi. Mine taped with sound but no video. Anyone willing to help me out, email me at Funkaboo412@aol.com Thanks.
Wood is not evil by Anyawatcher	Nov 26th, 2002 10:53:16 PM
he's just cleaning up the mess. He knows buffy is a Slayer and that he's over the hellmouth. Principal Wood is good, prob a Watcher-like others have said.
Wood is just taking care of bisniz. by FNORDknt	Nov 26th, 2002 11:00:51 PM
Wood is not a watcher and he does not know about buffy. Being a slayer exactly. With the coverup he probably just wants to keep his record clean so he doesn't get fired or it doesn't mess up his career ambitions. Just that simple...
The Principal Seemed A Little On The Brainwashed Side... by delwin	Nov 26th, 2002 11:03:48 PM
....but that's just me.
That'll do pig by OlafGladNBig	Nov 26th, 2002 11:06:07 PM
How could you miss that line Herc? As Andrew prepares to rain murder most foul down on the little piglet he screams out the catch phrase of farmer what's-his-name from the talking pig show. I almost bust a gut.
wood by el oso	Nov 26th, 2002 11:12:52 PM
Wood is obviously privy to information about demons, the Hellmouth, etc. He also seems to know that the seal was down there as he doesn't seem surprised at all to see it or to see a dead body on top of it. He was too nonchalant. Also, burying Jonathan's body doesn't exactly seem fitting of a bad guy (a bad guy would probably just dump the body off in the woods or something instead of putting effort into digging a grave). I think he's in with the Watchers somehow..
Well Done, Herc! by Regenhund	Nov 26th, 2002 11:28:16 PM
Your revised review hits the nail on the head (and other cliche'd yumminess). This ranks as one of the top 3 episodes this season; I'm just not sure where it ranks.
Fray theory, ANGEL by FNORDknt	Nov 26th, 2002 11:34:19 PM
Okay if the fray theory about all magics going away was true then what the hell about Angel. Fit the next two seasons real time like 24. Makes me worry all over.
Okay last time - Watchers this time... by FNORDknt	Nov 26th, 2002 11:41:58 PM
What if the council blew up their own residence. To play the old slight of hand trick. Maybe highest alert could mean that. How else could someone get a explosive into their house, their house! They don't have mystics on their side.
The First Evil by originaltdiddy	Nov 26th, 2002 11:42:48 PM
See any online watcher's guides for info on the first evil. Specifically "Amends" from season three in which Angel is tormented by his dead victims including Jenny Calendar, which no one else can see, save Angel. The Harbingers are no big deal and are dealt with accordingly after Buffy finds them in a cave beneath dead Christmas trees. Hence "From beneath you it devours."
This is a butcher shop, Neo. by originaltdiddy	Nov 26th, 2002 11:44:21 PM
We don't sell toothpaste!
Good grief... And they shift into overdrive! by Thalya	Nov 26th, 2002 11:51:46 PM
Yep, this season is going to be magnificent. I felt it in my bones even during S6. All the rumors about a double season and just the magic of the number 7. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I LOVE THIS SHOW! WHO'S WITH ME?!! Can I really even say more without going into overblown analysis?
watchers' hq & giles by el oso	Nov 26th, 2002 11:51:51 PM
i also thought that the watchers council blew up the building when i saw it explode. i don't know why they might do that, but that was the first thought through my head. i think that if they all died in that explosion, there would be at least an on-screen acknoledgement of all their deaths (either showing the explosion from inside the room as it starts, or showing some sort of aftermath of the wreckage with human remains, whatever) * SOMEWHAT OF A SPOILER * as for giles ..in an interview with wanda on http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/ Wanda/Archive2002/021122c.html , he says that he brings people from england to sunnydale that are in danger (aka. the slayers in training probably). so i think this excludes him being dead or being another image for FE to use. he's just getting ready for a big slayer pajama party at buffy's place.
The first vampire by jello1235	Nov 27th, 2002 12:08:31 AM
I'm slightly confused. maybe someone could help me out here a little bit. Why in the world would the supposed first evil need to bring about the first vampire or whatever that thing was. And earlier, one poster wrote that Wood can't be evil because he took the time to bury his victims, but that isn't necesarrily true because evil Spike buried his victimes in the last episode.
Sweet merciful HOTPANTS this episode ruled. by Gellar's Ass	Nov 27th, 2002 12:10:16 AM
Nice to see that Morphoromatic was only a minion. ** "That'll do, pig!" was hilarious. I don't really know what the deal was with the stock footage of the building blowing up. If it was supposed to be the Watchers Council biting it I really didn't should have been edited better. However, I'm at a loss as to what else it could be. Willow should have been able to get a spell off, but then we wouldn't have gotten to see Jailbait in action. ** Bad Cop Anya ruled.
Oh sweet irony. [no HOTPANTS here] by Gellar's Ass	Nov 27th, 2002 12:15:43 AM
Better editing indeed.
Manchurian Candidate Spike by GPL Racer	Nov 27th, 2002 12:40:35 AM
Assuming that Spike is, in fact, programmed, the question is, who programmed him. My vote is the Initiative and the song is the code that switches his chip to assasin mode. The chip still seems to work for normal Spike, unless the pain in his head when he punched Xander out in Sleeper was just a conditioned response.
my theory by wschiff	Nov 27th, 2002 01:10:07 AM
For spike: I think the song trigger was put there by the initative. why would they bother but a chip in a head of a vampire unless it was to control him for some reason. if by playing a song, they can create an unstoppable killing machine, then the us government has a new weapon. For the first evil: when they mention that the first was a vampire, i was thinking, Caine (from the bible). In the bible he was the first to commit evil (murder). Perhapse this is like that. the first evil is Caine from the bible (who according to the bible, was cursed to live forever like a vampire).
burials by Carey N.	Nov 27th, 2002 01:11:23 AM
I don't think Principal Wood is evil, though I haven't decided if he's brainwashed, a Watcher, or what. I don't think the fact that he buried Jonathan necessarily makes him good. Don't vampires have to be buried in order to turn? I seem to remember that. In that case, Spike may have buried his victims so they'd turn into vampires.
Wood by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 01:11:53 AM
Maybe it was me, but I heard a brief bit of piano, just before Wood looked to the basement door and went down to find Jonathan. I bet he's brainwashed too. The Councils building blowing up? Lame special effects to say the least. Same goes with that First Vampire joke. Does anyone NOT think that Buffy couldn't kick his ass in two seconds flat? Anya = hot ** Xander = fat
Spike's Chip by GPL Racer	Nov 27th, 2002 01:26:45 AM
What I really like about the idea that Spike's chip can make him a killer is that the gang will now have to figure out a way to remove the chip to keep from having to kill Spike.
Two weeks in a row they haven't dressed Xander as fat by RogueScribner	Nov 27th, 2002 01:27:13 AM
This ep kicked, but how long can they keep building the tension? Sooner or later something major is going to have to happen to release this tension. Next February the stakes will be raised . . . AGAIN! - - - - - - - - - - Xander and Anya got a little play this week. Some relationship stuff was weaved into their funny good cop/bad cop routine on Andrew. Couple that with Xander again coming through with the vital info and it seems that he's going through a little role redefinition himself. Xan-man seems to be becoming Mr. Info in Giles' stead. - - - - - - - - - - Okay, Wood-man didn't look surprised at finding Jonathan's corpse on top of a pentagram. This guy definitely knows . . . something. Then he goes out and buries him! How can Wood be a good guy if he's burying Jonathan? Is he protecting the bigger picture? Or is he in league with Morphy? - - - - - - - - - - "I believe in you, Spike." I think this far outweighs any "I love you" she might have given him. It's one thing to care for somebody. It's another to actually think they can fight the good fight against himself and the world and make it out alive. - - - - - - - - - - Well, it looks like Spike has officially been crucified, closing that loose thread from "Restless". Damn. Does this mean he won't die now? Nah! - - - - - - - - - - These past few episodes have seemed to be all about reforging the bond between Buffy and Spike and then moving all the chess pieces into place for the serious shit that will hit in February. The tension is killing me. I need a release!!! L8r
hold on a sec by fantasticpoof	Nov 27th, 2002 01:51:27 AM
let me get this straight...the bad guys go through all this trouble of killing slayers in training, killing watchers and their operatives, manipulating spike and the scoobies just so they could conjure up some pure vamp....you know what would have been better than that? ANYTHING...good god, buffy could take care of that thing blinfolded. the scoobies have fought and conquered far worse than this.
great ep, weak villan by Darth Lechon	Nov 27th, 2002 02:02:20 AM
I'm gonna have to go with fantasticpoof on this one. This was a great ep, through and through. But, like Chamber of Secrets (*SEMI-COS-SPOILER!!!If you haven't seen it yet, go, and stay though the credits!), it had a weak ending. END SEMI-SPOILER* I thought that thing crawling out of the ground was the Master for a second, but then it was just some ugly, craggy faced vamp. Would've been cool if it was the Master, or the Judge, or some new variation of something we've seen before. Instead, a vamp in Master clothing. How weak. Rest of the ep was cool. Pretty neat to see Quentin Travers get blown up, then flip the channel over to "24" and see the same actor walking in to talk to the president. And, as someone said earlier, yes, Dawn "Jailbait" Summers can fight! Apparently, she's a bit better trained than the slayers-in-training, in that she actually LIVED! Willow threatening Andrew was kick ass. Anya threatening Andrew was kick-asser. And yes, butt clevage has been prominent this season. Two actresses have shown it, two more to go. And, did Xander look thinner this week, or was that just an optical illusion?
(ass)....SPOILER!!! by dalis	Nov 27th, 2002 02:11:48 AM
OK, Spike's "crucifixion" was foretold in "Restless"? I know he posed with his arms out for the paparazzi in his crypt, but I didn't read much into it. Still, damn! Again, I'm seeing wierd symbols, except this time, they were etched on Spike's chest, and I didn't recognize them. Hmm. Also, NOW we have a frame of reference for Spike's attempted rape of Buffy. I know I should be telling myself, 'golly, if Spike can rape and torture kids, then imagine how bad this First Vampire must be, but somehow, I'm just not feeling it. So, is the First Evil the BB or is the First Vampire (very Count Orlock)? It would make more sense if the Vamp was a tool because FE definitely would win in the mind-fuck category. I love how just when Buffy et al. get to a point of moral/emotional/adverserial clarity, shit rolls downhill all over again. (Sigh)
"And, did Xander look thinner this week, or was that just an opt by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 02:12:03 AM
Its a girdle...
x & w by el oso	Nov 27th, 2002 02:15:47 AM
it's true it's true...xander's got a fat face (hey, he's like 33, give him a break), but when he was just wearing a t-shirt you could tell he was in good shape. *** wood wasn't burying jonathan so that he could turn into a vampire, he wasn't bitten. did anybody else notice a tune before Wood turned to go into the basement? I didn't, but it would be interesting to see if anybody can corroborate that other TB'ers post.
Rogue by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 02:16:09 AM
"Okay, Wood-man didn't look surprised at finding Jonathan's corpse on top of a pentagram. This guy definitely knows . . . something. Then he goes out and buries him! How can Wood be a good guy if he's burying Jonathan? Is he protecting the bigger picture? Or is he in league with Morphy?" I'm telling you, hes brainwashed. He looked all vacant faced the whole time, his office is right above the hellmouth, and I know I heard a quick snippet of piano music just before he went downstairs, this just moments after the "trigger" discussion. Brainwashed. ** On another note, didn't Andrew seem pretty spry for someone who just had a chunk torn out of their neck? And the Xander pumping Andrew joke? Hilarious.
I just checked the tape by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 02:23:57 AM
And theres three distinct piano notes and when they start Wood stops, his face seems to go slack and he turns and looks at the door. Then he goes down stairs and when he finds Jonathan, theres no expression. Not horror at a dead body in the basement, not resignation that he has to cover up this murder, not determination to deal with the evil and its leavings, not adoration at serving his master's will. Nothing. He just looks at it blankly (of course he could be a bad actor, but he's seemed pretty talented so far) And when he's digging the grave and rolling Jonathan in, there is still no expression, hes running on total autopilot.
"Notice the harbringer wanted to kill her the sameway as the oth by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 02:29:04 AM
Yeah, but it tried to do the same to Andrew as well and while he's got a little sugar in his tank, I don't think he has any Slayer in him. I don't think those knifes have any special signifigance. I think they use them because they are sharp.
first vamp by Sandwich	Nov 27th, 2002 02:42:27 AM
Wasn't the Master supposed to be the oldest vampire? It could be that he was the human that the first vampire bit, creating the vamp-hybrids that we all know & love. It would explain their similar taste in clothing. Also, the Master was trapped on the hellmouth & trying to open it. Could he have been trying to free his master?
If the Master was so old, by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 27th, 2002 02:45:40 AM
how come he didn't go cloven like Conquistos or whatever his name was?
first vamp part 2 by Sandwich	Nov 27th, 2002 02:46:13 AM
So maybe the first evil decided to unleash a foe that would have been insurmountable to buffy at one point in her life, in order to give itself more time to fully realize its plan.
Dawn's Future by TalieAM	Nov 27th, 2002 02:59:28 AM
There have been lots of hints that Dawn could be the ultimate SLAYER, if it ever came to that. She seems to have a natural fighting ablity. She used to be the "container" to a great deal of power that was neither good nor evil, it just was--so the potential for a real SuperWitch is great. May I remind everyone that the monks "made her out of me" (Buffy)..etc. I think that may be what finally pissed off the First. That and everyone this Scoobs seem to come in contact with that is evil, somehow ends up turning somewhat good.
HOLY SHIT! by a goonie	Nov 27th, 2002 03:05:38 AM
Man, two episodes from this fucking season (Conversations With Dead People and Never Leave Me) rank up there with the best episodes ever. This episode was insane. Prior to that knockout finale, it was a great episode with some laughs, some touching moments, and some incredible writing by Drew, who completely rules my world right now. But then that ending... Buffy learns what they're up against ("It's The First"), Quentin explains that the First Evil has declared all-out war, seconds before the Council is blown to smithereens, Spike is used to open the Hellmouth, and out comes this creepy as shit vampire. Seriously, this is one of the biggest episodes of Buffy ever. The sheer size of the happenings is overwhelming. I can't believe I have to wait till May to learn how this is going to end. I am so damn excited. Five stars.
Such a good time to be a longtime Buffy fan.. by Thalya	Nov 27th, 2002 03:32:15 AM
Now what I want to know is, how on earth are they going to kill this first vamp? Kakistos, the one-ep vamp that followed Faith into town required a bigass post to the chest to do the job. Will a stake of any sort work in this case? Will maybe a giant crucifix work? Will Holy Water work (and will they explore some of the religious connections that can be used to ward off vamps?)? Will it be a beheading or a flaming death? Can it be killed or will Buffy be able to kill it? Could this be the vampire that drinks Key blood? Will it have an even stronger Thrall over Buffy just the way the Master did and if so, wouldn't that imply a connection at the mystical level between what a Slayer is and what a vamp is. And if this is the First Vamp, could the First Slayer have been derived from it, or were both created at the same time with the First Evil watching or in some way involved? I want answers darnit! And just how poetic is it that Spike, possibly the last significant vamp in the Master's line, and one of the two souled vampires (though the only willingly-souled one) brings forth this monstrosity? And on an odd note, did anyone notice a slight Empire Strikes Back musical tinge during the big showdown at the house when harbingers were running upstairs?
JUST TO CLARIFY by Bored Man	Nov 27th, 2002 04:48:30 AM
They are two seperate characters. 'The First Evil' which reared it's ugly head in 'Amends' attempting to goad Angel into killing Buffy then himself (which it suceeded in, but the snow saved angel from sunny delight). The harbringers of "The First Evil" were the ones that buffy fought, in the ground underneath the dead christmas tree. That is why she remembers fighting them. This is way back in Season 3 people (Joss rules). The first vampire (a confusing title, perhaps something more poetic like the Proginator(sp?) of the vampires, or something in latin like Vampirus Primus) is what was summoned from the ground. First evil> non corporeal taking the forms of dead(or once dead) people.Once called "Morphy" but not anymore because we know what/who it is. Frist vampire> really ugly old looking vampire rising from the hellmouth. p.s. Glory should come back and help destroy the first evil(because she wants to take it's place) so she works with Buffy and gang to help bring about the first's demise. Wouldn't it be great Having Glorificus chatting it up with the scoobs, being all high and mighty and concerned with fashion at the same time. And I love Clare Kramer.
why the master didnt ger cloven feet/hands by Bored Man	Nov 27th, 2002 04:57:52 AM
I remember hearing sometihng awhile ago about old vampires becoming more demonic as they progress and gaining animal/demon-like physical characteristics. Kakistos gets hooves, like a classical demon. The master is permanently in vamp-face, and is taking on bat-like characteristics (albeit subtle). I am almost certain this was from audio dvd commentary by Joss whedon. I guess that the way in which a vampire shows his age differs from vamp to vamp. Or perhaps the Master simply controlled his physical appearance when he got to a certain age. plus, its a tv show (i know, i know, suspense of disbelief blah blah)
Drew Goddard Rules by darla lover	Nov 27th, 2002 05:09:43 AM
This ep ruled, Drew Goddard rules. Where did they find this guy? Herc, give us more info on him, PLEASE. Agree that it's not as good as Selfless and Conversations, but Holy Crap! There was so much good stuff. Andrew and the pig, Jonathan's "Light and Hope" comment, The First Evil, Spike in the basement, Principal Wood. Definitely four and a half stars. you're dead-on, Herc. anyone else think it was funny that as soon as Dawn said "her exact words were 'I've got stuff coming out of both ends'" the title credit "Written by Drew Goddard" came up? That has to be intentional, don't you think? Can they plan that stuff? All in all, this season ROCKS. Keep it coming.
Caine; the First Evil by turk128	Nov 27th, 2002 06:27:25 AM
wschiff: "the first evil is Caine from the bible (who according to the bible, was cursed to live forever like a vampire)."---- That'll be badarse if they throw in a Biblical reference. Supposidly, all monsters and ghoulies sparned from Caine so technically Caine is the first Vampire.
Watcher HQ by Nick Beal	Nov 27th, 2002 07:15:12 AM
They would blow up their own headquarters if they knew they were never coming back alive, to insure centuries of secrets never got out.
The First Vampire by ThingsThatTimDog	Nov 27th, 2002 08:40:13 AM
I think people are reading a bit to much into the significance of the vampire so far. I think the First described the reason why she raised the vamp fairly clearly through the episode. It said that it was incorporeal and needed someone to carry out its plans, its harbringers were too limited. So it raised the first vampire to provide it a solid hammer to use against the Scoobs and act as its hands in the coming Apocalypse. I bet there might be more 'hammers' employeed later.**Alyson Hannigan is a goddess. Damn she looks great this year! Perfect everything. She is the uber-babe she witch. Lil Dawnie might indeed be a protoslayer. Dont see any other reason why they would signal her out for a dagger attack. Point of contention: Somebody needs to teach Michelle how to throw a punch if shes a future slayer. Those were the weakest looking strikes i have seen in a long time. Either bad shot selection or shes afraid to throw one, but she was missing by about 6 inches. Its ok to bury a elbow or two into a stuntmans ribs. Its what they get paid for afterall.**Anya's hair was much better this week.
"Real Vampire" by BlueIce1492	Nov 27th, 2002 08:43:08 AM
Is it just me, or did the "real vampire" at the end look like the modern day version of Nosferatu? Yes, Nosferatu -- the vampire in the 1922 silent horror film of the same name. Anyone else catch this or maybe agree?
Please? by Funkaboo	Nov 27th, 2002 08:44:09 AM
Now, more than before, I really need someone to mail me a copy of last night's epi. I'm more than willing to pay the shipping. Email me at Funkaboo412@aol.com if you can hook me up. Thanks, Nina
Amazing. by Daireen	Nov 27th, 2002 08:49:46 AM
I laughed, I cried, I laughed some more. ("THAT'LL DO, PIG!!!" just about made me wet my pants) But frankly I was a bit let down by the ending. I certainly hope that Ubervamp(tm) is just a tool of the Morphy Mindfucker, cause ferchrissake, Buffy's taken on a GOD. OK, true, Giles suffocated the human body she was inhabiting and Buffy chucked herself off a tower, but still! As we were all saying before, we need more personal Big Bads, ones who get under our Scoobies' skins (literally, it's lookin like) and present a more than simply physical threat. I suppose that's the whole problem with Morphy: being incorporeal makes it hard to kick its ass. ;) --- I was rather lost on the whole Watcher HQ place being blown up. It seemed kind of out-of-nowhere, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but I might've gotten more of a jolt out of it if there had been a bit more buildup of their peril. If, after those opening SIT deaths, we had similar opening scenes in other episodes with the Council worriedly discussing what was going on. Not in any great detail, but enough that we're not left completely confused. Ah well. I'm now rampantly curious why Giles is so particularly important. --- I'm also phenomenally lost about Wood. He's such an awesome laid-back character that you KNOW something bad is either going to happen to him or be caused by him (dammit!), but so far, I'm not getting which side of the fence he's on. Perhaps Puck references aren't amiss. Morphy may be sick of the balance, but dammit, Wood is gonna do everything he can to keep it balanced.. for good _or_ evil. shrug As for the piano music, I think that was just simply the score. It didn't sound like it was coming from actually inside the school. --- OK, back to work. ;)
Why the Harbingers went after Andrew by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 08:53:17 AM
The reason the Harbingers were trying to kill the spastard was for the same reason Manchurian Spike tried -- to stop him from squealing on the Mighty Morphin' Lower Danger's plan. But I have to say, if I were them Harbinger peeps? Id've busted in WITH THE KNIVES ALREADY DRAWN and slashed the lot of 'em, not go all Star Trek quarterstaff first. That whole scene was superlame. And someone should have edited in a quick shot of Xander with a look of "Oh, MAN! JUST after I fixed up them winders all purdy-like!"
okay now by casmcthorn	Nov 27th, 2002 09:09:24 AM
First puhlese giles aint dead fools,we would have seen it happen so why get hyper about it.He took on evil willow and survived a little harbinger is easy.A roll out technique and he is safe.First vamp is a obstical first evil is official big bad.Spike was supposed to make a large vamp army but failed to so first evil activated plan two.Or skipped ahead to part two of earlier plan.FE is tired of leveling the playing field.Everything he throws at buffy dies and he wants to end the uber good so he can stop with the uber bad.Dawn does seem to have a lot o slayer ability starting to show.Willow probably didn't amgic because she is still worried about the prediction of the FE visit in con with dead peeps.And I am sorry bible fans but you will not hear the new vamp refered to as caine Joss will not reference the bible it is his universe and he doesn't need the crazy ramblings of intence religoius people,not that you guys are,but that there are crazies who will be pissed if Caine isn't properly addressed.Thats all for now.
wow! by anthomaniac1023	Nov 27th, 2002 09:12:37 AM
if the season keeps going at this rate it might be the best one ever! drew goddard rocks!!!!
Giles' importance by ThingsThatTimDog	Nov 27th, 2002 09:14:43 AM
I think one of the reasons Giles went back is that he is prolly the man in charge of the protoslayer program now. Its telling when the dying watcher told him to gather them. He is prolly in hiding and collecting the fews girls that remain, keeping both CoW and the BB confused with magics.
"Maybe it's another musical (cue)?" "Yeah, a really crappy mus by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 09:14:45 AM
Xander's "Manchurian Spike" explanation about the military and their brainwashing methods really seals the deal. The Initiative put that old sea shanty as Spike's musical trigger in order to use him for their own purposes. Well, how did Li'l Morphy get his hands on the launch code? Same way he's gotten the goods on all the other Scoobies. Some sort of psychic mindproby thing that allows him to play off their worst fears and stuff. With all that said, I think that the couple of piano notes that "cued" Principal Wood to check out the basement were just part of the score, and that Morphy has no mind-control powers on him. Not that I have a better explanation of why he would, at that exact moment, go down and clean up the body so Morphy could do his big spell... Okay. Let me revise. If Wood is evil, then he's under Morphy's control, same as the Harbingers, and not really requiring a cue. If he's good, (which I really really hope he is -- he's just too damn hot to be evil), then he's not under Morphy's thrall (or at least, not by the same means). Maybe the janitor had the night off, and asked him to take care of the body instead. Yeah, and that's why he had that look on his face. "Doo-dee-doo-dee-doo... Long day. I'm looking forward to that bubble bath. Oh, SHIT. I totally forgot about that damn dead body Walter asked me to handle while he's off on jury duty. Sorry, Mr. Bubble, I guess we'll have to postpone our sweaty midnight rendezvous..."
one more thing by casmcthorn	Nov 27th, 2002 09:15:50 AM
the reason the mighty morpher can become buffy is because she died...twice, it can only become people who have died.So i think kendra shold make a quick cameo,i miss mr. pointy.
Biblical references by Da Law	Nov 27th, 2002 09:26:09 AM
After reading the posts about Caine possibly representing the First Evil, I thought about something that my wife pointed out during last night's episode (she is a hard core fan in denial). She said that it was funny that Xander (who represented the heart component of Super Buffy to beat Adam) was a carpenter. Anyone else know of a famous carpenter that is known for his compassion, loyalty, and heart? If this is going to be the end-all Biblical apocalypse we have heard about, wouldn't it be fitting that you have someone represent the ultimate good and sacrifice himself for others? Could be something there, I don't know.
Another famous carpenter... by ThingsThatTimDog	Nov 27th, 2002 09:37:42 AM
OMFG the BB bad must be Harrison Ford. He is the most famous carpenter I know.
Da Law by Daireen	Nov 27th, 2002 09:40:41 AM
That was already discussed at the end of last year, when compassionate, hearty Xander talked evil freakzoid Willow down. ;) --- Who else thought the First Vampire was incredibly lame and not at all scary? raises hand I wanna see demons! REAL demons, ala the Mayor... There's a mass Slayer activation, and 150 16-year-olds descend upon Sunnydale to do apocalyptic battle with a sh!tload of REAL demons... Damn, they should almost make that pay-per-view. ;)
wschiff by FatXander	Nov 27th, 2002 09:43:24 AM
Are you daft? when the hell does the bible EVER refer to Caine as cursed?!? It's God's grace saving him from being murdered by others. God banished him, but he still forgave him and protected him. There is never any reference to him being a vampire or a demon spawn. Honestly, read the bible. it's the same pattern in the old testament, sin (cain killing), judgement (the banishing) and the grace of God (the mark so no one else would harm him). Christ you guys need to go to the source, not mythology.
Spike and his Musical Cue... by dp4m	Nov 27th, 2002 09:43:34 AM
... if Morphy (First) is INDEED containing the memories and knowledge of Warren, then that's likely how they know about the musical cue of the chip (if there is such a thing -- I'm just trying to explain other speculation). Warren did a whole analysis of it last season... ;)
Shouting at the TV by GypsyTRobot	Nov 27th, 2002 10:07:42 AM
At Willow: "Where the hell are your magic powers?" At Buffy: "'I believe in you'?!? Cheesiest line ever!" At Robin Wood: "Don't go in the basement! You're gonna get eaten like the other principals! Don't do it!" To everyone at end of episode, "Where's Andrew? Dumbasses, didn't you realize they were trying to kill Andrew and so was Spike? Interrogate the little weasel!" + The vampire at the end of "The Body" probably wasn't buried, just hanging out in a morgue. So I doubt that all vampires absolutely need to be buried. Maybe it's just a kind of undead hazing, forcing the newbies to claw their way out of a grave. + That vampire did not look like the 1922 Nosferatu, although it looked a bit more like the remake (not Shadow of the Vampire, the other one). When he was popping out of the seal, I was hoping against hope it'd be the Master, given the similar outfit (hell, it could be the same one Metcalf wore in the first episode). If this is the Master's sire, it's actually very cool and Anne Rice-y that Spike's blood summoned his great great great grandsire. + Was that a Marti Noxon touch, having Spike hint at a history of sexual assault and torture? Yuck.
what's with willow? by sn435	Nov 27th, 2002 10:29:49 AM
Hi! Quick comment. Thought this episode was great, a wonderfully suspenseful way to stop before going on hiatus. My own feeling is that Principal Wood is definitely brainwashed and the "Ubervamp" is just the first of many evil creature that the First has at its disposal. I would not be surprised if Glory, the Master and others turn up as physical presences before long. This leads to my main comment: what's with Willow? Her inability or unwillingness to defend herself and the others with magic was a real letdown. I am hoping that a major plot thread for this season will be Willow learning to trust herself and her ability to control her power. Otherwise, she will be an incredible and invaluable resource that goes wasted. Willow growing up to become a confident, powerful young woman has been one of the most interesting and compelling parts of the series, and I hope the writers will remember this and give us Willow fans a big payoff.
To be fair to Willow... by ThingsThatTimDog	Nov 27th, 2002 10:35:29 AM
If Willow had magiked the harbringers to death we wouldnt have gotten a chance to see Lil Dawnie kicking butt. I think that scene had more plot relevance than Will putting the kibosh down. Though I agree it would have been nice if she managed to recover near the end to defeat one of the minions with her magiks.
The Watchers by Darth Lechon	Nov 27th, 2002 10:45:25 AM
Y'know, it's possible that some of the watchers survived the explosion. Travers himself seems too stuffy and stubborn to die. He may lose a limb or an eye, but he and a few others might have survived. I haven't yet heard of a building being bombed with 100% casualties. (Thank God.)
Ubervamp but no Tim Curry by brother_seamus	Nov 27th, 2002 11:57:25 AM
Anyone else read that false spoiler over the summer? Anyway, holy Crap what a great show!! I
forgot to mention by brother_seamus	Nov 27th, 2002 12:02:58 PM
I also thought it was cool that Harris Yulin (Travers) was on 24 right after Buffy. I guess if you're a good character actor, you'll always be able to get work. Nice.
Anya being Slap Happy!!! by joshuaonenine	Nov 27th, 2002 02:25:08 PM
Hands down , I thought the funniest part of the entire episode was seeing Anya slap Andrew! Good Stuff! And the Watchers are no more!!!!Whoever came up with that idea deserves a props!!!!!!! The only thing I didnt get was the vampire they showed at the end of The episode.When did Buffy fight the hooded figures? Who is the vampire? If i look at the first season will any of my questions be answer? Will i ever see how Big Bad really looks? I bet you its the principal? someone fill me in!!!!!!!
Why don't you... by Bramton1	Nov 27th, 2002 05:25:19 PM
...pass the time by playing a little solitaire?
Xander as Christ figure by the G-man	Nov 27th, 2002 05:28:21 PM
Xander begins with "X." The letter "X" is also a symbol meaning "the cross" or "Christ." In fact, that's were the abbreviation "Xmas" comes from. So maybe there's something to this.
I've been away a while by sunflr	Nov 27th, 2002 05:40:40 PM
I have been avoiding this website because I was so mad last season because of my inability to ignore spoilers. But stupid UPN has been messing up and this is the only way I can find out what happened. I did get to see the entire ep last night and it was GRRRREAT!. But 1 question ... Spike was "Spike the Bloody" before he went vamp, wasn't he? The flash back when Spike reads the poem at a dinner party and a guy says something to the effect of -You are called The Bloody because you poems are bloody boring or bloody sappy- something like that. Am I remembering this wrong?
Bramton1 by LucasOrvis	Nov 27th, 2002 05:57:53 PM
Nice reference!
godrefla & Watchers by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 06:15:32 PM
In answer to your question: 27 y.o. GW"CM". As far as Watchers go, my theory is this: If it is indeed the last season of Buffy, and the Watchers HQ was destroyed while occupied, and all loose ends set up by "Restless" are to be resolved, then I posit that at the end of the series, Giles, as one of the last Watchers in existence, will create a new Council comprised of any surviving Watchers, Buffy, the Scoobies, and (most importantly) a human SPIKE. The scene in "Restless" that sets this up is during Xander's dream: Giles and Spike on a swingset in the sunlight: Spike: "I'm going to be a Watcher" Giles: "He's like a son to me." I know that these have been halfway resolved in "Tabula Rasa," with Spike's brown jacket and his assumption that he was Giles' son, but I think that was just part of the set-up. Later in that ep, he fights along Buffy and theorizes that he's a good guy on the Slayer team. ***** It'd be a nice way to end the series if all the good guys got to be official, and finally get paid (I always assumed Watchers had money somehow?) for doing what they'd been doing for free for the last seven years. It could haaaaaaaappen!
Giles & The Slayers by hellcats-a-gogo	Nov 27th, 2002 06:20:13 PM
Doesn't it appear that Rupert will "gather them" and bring the slayers in trainging to Sunnydale for an all out get down last big bad blast with "the First" and minions, don't you see the pose now: Buffy at the head of a trinagular formation, the slayerettes behind her, all hitting their kung-fu pose and awaiting what they know is a fight to the ultimate end.
godrefla & everyone else by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 06:24:16 PM
Oh, and godrefla, no offense taken. If you don't have a thick skin and a sense of humor here in TalkBackLand, you don't belong. I'll tell you again, man, some of the stains on my monitor are snotrockets from your posts. Keep 'em coming! Everyone else: Damn I'm sorry for the rampant run-on sentences in my previous post. To all of you reading aloud, "deeeep breath."
the post above this by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 06:25:53 PM
That would be Hellcats-A-Go-Go, man!
Aurelius? by DefyThis	Nov 27th, 2002 06:55:44 PM
The Master was but a child...
When was... by hunda64	Nov 27th, 2002 07:00:30 PM
Willow
God/Bible/Christianity by Steepdog	Nov 27th, 2002 07:08:18 PM
Just a question... everyone keeps adamantly saying that Whedon would make no references to God or the bible...why then, in his vampire "rules" did he include the bit about holy water and Crucifixes? Why would these things hurt vamps if the ideology behind them is untrue or does not exist? Wouldn't it stand to reason then, that biblical references are fair game in the Buffyverse? In fact, I think it's about time for them, because there is all of this talk about "the First Evil," wouldn't there be an equal and opposite "Good." Are we to believe that the Vampire Slayer is the only thing that can stop the Ultimate Evil? With no "Higher Power" behind her? It doesn't seem to well thought out if this is the case. If anyone could shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it, because I've only seen about half of seasons 3,4,and,6 so I may have missed an explaination somewhere along the line.
godrefla by jello1235	Nov 27th, 2002 07:14:43 PM
Godrefla, Buffy first fought the harbingers in a christmas episode a longtime ago. They were harboring the first evil that was stalking Angel with the ghost of his past victims.
hunda64 by chickenmonkey	Nov 27th, 2002 07:18:27 PM
Willow asks Buffy how she'd holding up in there [interrogating Spike]. Buffy replies with comments about Spike's mental health or something, and Willow rephrases to ask how BUFFY is doing, what with all the torment of insane Spuffy love.
Something's Up With Dawn by Skanky_Tony	Nov 27th, 2002 07:39:37 PM
She was fighting pretty good in this episode! Everyone else seemed to get the crap kicked outta them, and she was taking care of herslef! Also in 'Conversations With Dead People' she just happens to be able to pull off all that magick? Me thinks Dawn has powers a la being the Key or she'll become a Slayer.
sorry by jello1235	Nov 27th, 2002 09:52:30 PM
I confused you with someone else. They asked who the hooded figures were, and for some reason I put your name in the space. Thanks for not cursing me out.
The end by fire	Nov 27th, 2002 10:04:10 PM
Any chance this is the last season of Buffy?
It's official: Willow is now hotter than Buffy. by Christopher3	Nov 27th, 2002 10:04:36 PM
Didn't see that coming. What Robocop homage?
I'm way late on this stuff... by MissMuffet	Nov 27th, 2002 10:36:57 PM
but anyway, the episode was GREAT. Still, I think if this deserved 4.5 stars, then Conversations with Dead People deserved 5. Also, I'm thinking Quentin Travers is responsible for all this explosion stuff. I mean, first CTU explodes and a couple of hours later he shows up talking to President Palmer, then Watchers Headquarters explodes? I think he's in on it with Milo/Jesse. I mean, where's he been?
crosses and holy water by casmcthorn	Nov 27th, 2002 11:14:38 PM
They are recognizable to vampire lore to leave them out would be a problem to genre fans.Why not have them die by stabbing them with twinkies.Yes that is an exageration,but they didn't have to use stakes.Oh and Buffy won't be leading the fight my friends,the slayers in training will be fighting her.Warrens time is done glory is next.
mythology by shomps	Nov 28th, 2002 12:36:44 AM
To the poster above who talked about going to the source (the bible) instead of mythology, what do you think the bible is?
Giles Lives!!!! by The Paladin	Nov 28th, 2002 01:24:42 AM
In case anyone wants proof: Head is back in Los Angeles to shoot several episodes in which his character returns to Sunnydale. It's unclear how many more episodes Head will do, though he's believed to have committed to at least 10 this season. "We're in debate at the moment ... because I've got to go back ... to England," he said. "And we're just ... looking at whether they need me to come back before Christmas or not. ... People keep asking me how long I'm here for, and I keep saying, 'I haven't the vaguest idea.' And it's true. ... Sometimes it's useful for me to withdraw and not be here to help out. And sometimes it's useful for me to help out. I do know that my first big scene back, I had all the exposition. Give the English guy the big words." http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire /art-tv.html?2002-11/15/12.00. tv Paladin out...
Cain, First, Watcher HQ by Vaebn	Nov 28th, 2002 01:30:15 AM
First of all, a bunch of people are rather misguided when it comes to Cain (WITHOUT an e, thank you). Cain was thrown out of Eden for killing his brother and marked by God as an outcast. That's it. The whole Caine-with-an-e being the first vampire and being taught by Lilith and siring 13 clans and whatnot is from White Wolf's Vampire the Masquerade game and has nothing to do with the Bible (although V:tM's backstory is MUCH more interesting than the Bible ;> ). Obviously, Joss Whedon is not going to steal V:tM's backstory, so don't expect any Cain(e) references. And the whole thing about Xander as Joseph (or Jesus?!) is too ridiculous to even address... is he NOT going to screw around with Anya so she'll have a so-not-virgin-birth or something? Wait.. Dawn's still a virgin, right? Sheesh. Crucifixes and holy water are one thing - they're part of the whole commercialised vampire legend. Going any further into religion would be seen as exploiting the beliefs that some people hold dear for violent entertainment. M.E. wouldn't risk that :P As for the First, someone was asking if it definately refered to the First Evil - it does, because Buffy figured out it was the First after recognizing the same harbingers that helped the First Evil in Amends. Finally, I'm beginning to think that the Watchers might not be destroyed... interesting how 'we're going to pay a visit to the hellmouth' was followed immediately by the explosion - it struck me as a little coincidental. If your institution was under seige by some all-powerful evil, and you had to leave en masse, wouldn't it be prudent to destroy any remaining files, any remaining evidence of your plans? With all of the magical means the First could probably use ('reading' the location for auras or whatever), destroying the building strikes me as the only way to be sure. I'm just a teensy bit skeptical that the Watcher's Council was brought up at the beginning of this episode for the first time in years only to be destroyed for good. And what good television it would be for Buffy to kick some pompous Watcher Council ass again 8)
Joss Whedon is an athiest. by cold lazarus	Nov 28th, 2002 02:08:47 AM
Although he does confess to a fascination with the Christian mythos, as he explains in a quote referencing the season 3 Christmas episode "Amends", which featured the first appearance of the First Evil. (The Celebrity Athiest List, http://www.celebatheists.com/e ntries/atheist_38.html#1 ) Although Whedon's emphasis is on redemption earned through human means, not via a higher power.I don't know about Cain, but in Jewish mythology Adam's first wife was Lilith, who became the mother of various demons and creatures after she was cast out of Eden, and is sort of considered the Mother of Evil. Not that it matters since Whedon has said on numerous occasions that he's not going to specifically reference Christian theology in the Buffyverse. About that First Vamp (if that's what he was)...I was kinda hoping he'd be bigger and badder than old vamps like Kakistos and The Master. It would have been cool if he was, like, 15 feet tall or something, but given that shot of the Watchers' building blowing up, I guess ME's already burned through its SFX money for the season. So the ending was kind of a letdown, since this "Danzathar" guy looks enough like The Master without actually being The Master. (And isn't The Master already a Nosferatu homage?) I am enjoying the higher production values this season, however, cheesy video stock footage of London aside. And add my name to the growing number of fans who believe Drew Goddard is the best Buffy writer these days.
Two theories I want entered into the record. by Village Idiot	Nov 28th, 2002 02:13:08 AM
One, if the morphin thing really can only morph into people who are dead, I think Giles is indeed dead, and when we see him next, we're supposed to think he is the real Giles, escaped from the scythe, but he's really Morphy. Two, Buffy is the slayer who has lived the longest, right? Maybe there's only a limited time that a girl can be a slayer, and Buffy is reaching the end of her limit, and now prospective candidates are surfacing, including Dawn.
what was the reference to robocop? by blckmgk13	Nov 28th, 2002 03:03:31 AM
just curious. if you do respond please put myname in the subject line, because this goddamned screwy talkback order is friggin nauseating to try and keep order in.
Vaebn by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 28th, 2002 04:08:56 AM
"Cain was thrown out of Eden for killing his brother and marked by God as an outcast." Are you sure? Wasn't Adam and Eve driven from Eden and Cain was banished for killing his brother? Anyway, who cares about the bible shit? Joss is smart enough not to include any of it, so why bother debating its finer points?
Questions (spoilers for those under a rock)) by coop	Nov 28th, 2002 10:58:14 AM
Was the vampire that came out of the hellmouth supposed to be the first? or was that just a minion of the First? and if so, doesn't that make him the First vampire and not necessarily the first evil? so would that make the demon in L.A. a bigger bad than a simple, really old vampire? Did one bring out the other possibly? Just because there will be no other crossovers than Faith doesn't mean the two stories aren't related. They still exist in the same universe and since Faith will be heading to Sunnydale after helping in L.A. the stories will have to be related. On the Principal Wood thing, I think he is a good guy and he knows what is going on, whether he's a watcher or just a dogooder sent by the powers to keep an eye on things.
"They still exist in the same universe" by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 28th, 2002 04:47:58 PM
Nope, not anymore. Ones on WB, the other is on UPN. Give up the dream, there will be no big cross over. Its not going to happen. I sure Joss wanted to when they were on the same network, but now he can't, because the networks won't allow it. The only crossing over will be Faith and brief, vague references. ("my girlfriend sent me to a hell dimension once" Angel. Notice the missing name "buffy") Give up the dream. There will be no cross over. They'll let Xander parade around shirtless before they have a cross over. Why do you people cling so desperately to this idea? It would just turn out lame, just like every cross over done in comic books. Angel and Buffy would gaze at each other, longingly. Cordy and Anya would sneer at each other, then trade secrets about Xander. There'd be competition between the two teams, then they'd split up so someone from Buffy was working with someone from Angel and wackiness would ensue and then in the end they'd all wave and one group would drive off over the horizon. Lame. It would be all fluff. There'd be no real continuity development, because you'd have two complete shows together and they'd have to explain the whole backstory of both for any fans who don't watch both shows and they're not going to have a character from one show greatly affect the continuity of another, because there may never be another cross over and you'd have to explain this crossed over character's role constantly and they wouldn't even be amongst the regular cast, it'd be baggage for both writing teams that isn't needed. It'd be like a bigger than usual stand alone episode. I, for one, am glad that there is No Cross Over Possibilities.
Spoiler for Dawn by warlock411	Nov 28th, 2002 05:06:07 PM
spolier spoiler sipolier spooler Dawn will become a SIT in eppy 12
Skewer's Choice Marathon by Funkaboo	Nov 28th, 2002 10:07:01 PM
Been tuning in off and on all day to the Buffy marathon on FX. Can anyone explain to me how they're doing it. It's been on since noon, last episode will air at 1am. They just showed Fool For Love which they said was the 5th most requested episode and are now showing The Body which is the 12th most requested. I understand that they will show in them in order but not consecutive but don't understand what that does for the voting? Maybe I'm just babbling. Anyone happen to catch what the most requested episode was? Did I miss it or will it be one of the ones airing between 11pm-1am? Feel free to email me if you know. Funkaboo412@aol.com
Give Giles SOME credit by RB122944	Nov 28th, 2002 10:39:01 PM
At this point, does anybody think that Giles MAY have been anticipating some sort of trap or ambush when he showed up at the flat? Assuming this is true and knowing that the man can work some heavy magic (remember his battle with Willow?), I say that he is alive, well and lying in wait until he can formulate some sort of plan.
yes, by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 29th, 2002 12:54:29 AM
He makes millions and millions of dollars.
Spike by libellule	Nov 29th, 2002 08:33:46 AM
In Fool For Love, the wonderful Spike episode, Buffy tells Spike he is beneath her. Remember the episode is all about Spike killing slayers. And this one has since broken his heart. Could that have anything to do with "from beneath you it devours?"
Buffy hasn't died twice . . . by Ravenwing263	Nov 29th, 2002 12:14:00 PM
she's died FIVE TIMES. Well, three, since "Nightmates" wasn't real and "The Wish" was AU. The first one was in "Prophecy Girl", the second was in "The Gift", and if her temporary death in "Prophecy Girl" counted, so did her flatline at the end of S6 . .. I think it was in "Villians."
to ravenwing263: so close, and yet so wrong: by 93curr	Nov 29th, 2002 01:35:27 PM
Buffy didn't flatline in 'Villains' -Willow's magick aura (or whatever the hell it was that blew out the lights and caused all the electrical equipment to fail) caused the machine to stop working. Not that she might not have died had Willow not intervened, but the shooting script makes it quite clear that Buffy didn't quite make it to the other side. I count 'Nightmares' because she died, but got better once coma kid woke up. I DON'T count 'The Wish' because once Cordy's wish was cancelled, time reverted back to the point where the wish had originally been granted, so it never happened.
Dawn as Slayer Would Be A Joke by The Smiths	Nov 29th, 2002 04:27:27 PM
It's starting to look more and more like Dawn is being set up to become the next slayer. That would be a complete joke! I can see it now: in a few episodes Giles reveals to Dawn that she is a SIT. Then she's in goofy competitions with the other SIT. Faith comes to town, dies in the last episode-- the few SIT still alive look at one another to see who has inherited the power of the slayer, and what a shocker it is when we discover that the power has been transmitted to Dawn. Give me a break!!! Its obvious that Joss is gonna do this to cover himself in case Sarah Michelle Gellar leaves the show next year. Is there even one person out there who would still watch the show next year with Dawn as the slayer. She will have a next generation of scoobs hanging with her, and I'm sure they'd find a way to keep Willow and Xander in the show. Buffy, knowing that Dawn as a slayer can now finally take care of herself will travel the world with Spike. Willow will probably watch over the house and conveniently become a teacher at Sunnydale High. The principal (I forgot his name) is probably a watcher and will become Dawns. Finally, Xander will keep hanging around like he always does.
Principal Wood by Helena	Nov 29th, 2002 05:33:17 PM
Could Principal Wood be a man from the Initiative? Forrest's brother? Wood doesn't fit into the Watchers Council - no British accent at all. Still Wood's very businesslike when he finds Jonathan's body.
I just saw yet another bit of magical whedon foreshadowing by Custodes	Nov 29th, 2002 11:12:54 PM
Good old FX, 13 hours of BtVS. I noticed in "Dopplegangland" that when Willow first escapes from Vampire Willow, she points out that "I think she's a little gay". Ah, the portends.
I think the "Real Vampire" should be important given the series' by Drath	Nov 30th, 2002 12:14:57 PM
Why are Buffy fans becoming so bitchy? Theories get put out there and then are attacked. We all KNOW we're speculating, and that that speculation is rooted in what we'd like to see versus what we really think will happen.******** I'd like to see Principal Wood not be evil because him being a bad guy feels too obvious and a waste. I'd like for Giles not to be dead because his "death" was so unworthy of his character. That and I don't want him to die. Ever. I'd like the Holden vampire guy to come back because I thought the actor had a good chemistry with Gellar and it'd be nice for FE to have that with Buffy--even though I do think FE not have a face of its own has worked very well thus far too. ******* I like that they've brought in something from Buffy's vampire lore. I don't know that this is "First Vampire," but I guess it's certainly A First Vampire. The vampires are in Buffy's title, yet they have to be the least menacing species of monster she has to face most of the time. It's good that a final showdown this season would involve them and not some hell god or other like Glory. ******** The Cain theories are fine, but since they've said they won't ever use exact canon from any religion(yeah, despite the crucifixes and holy water), I wouldn't bet on them saying it's Cain. Actually, Cain was the first murderer, so was he the First Evil, or the First Human Evil? There are probably several answers to that, and this is why you can't get logical with religion or you'll go nuts. Anyway, I think First Evil or The First needs very little explanation as it is. First Evil is the oldest and biggest foe, you aren't going to find a bigger villain. In fact, I think it'd be better if they leave it open for people to apply their many religious views to it. Certainly, the agnostics would like it better that way, and we won't have to listen to them tearing down religion.
Spuffy IS excellent stuff by LivingTribunal	Nov 30th, 2002 12:56:54 PM
The spuffy portions were the best part of the episode. Those two are compelling to watch. Hopefully Joss will see the light and put them together.
slayers-in-waiting by Katsuit77	Dec 9th, 2002 06:39:32 AM
All the stuff about slayers-in-waiting will make a lot more sense for you if you read the Spike and Drusilla book "Pretty Maids All In A Row". It explains that the Watchers Council has a programme for selecting likley slayer candidates. Because the average life-span of a slayer is so short, they like to have a fairly good idea of who the next one will be, so that they can begin prepping her for the job, even before she inherits all her slayer skills. So if someone really wants to screw with the forces of good, I think that killing all the slayers-in-waiting (so that when Big Bad kills the real slayer, the next one won't be trained at all) followed by killing all the important people at the Watchers Council is a good start. And in answer to someones comment about the watcher's council being worldwide - of course it is. How else would they be able to have all their resources, and do things like threaten to deport Giles?

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