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Herc's Seen BUFFY 7.8!!

Being first is over rated. by Gazbert11	Nov 18th, 2002 10:10:31 AM
No, really - it is.
Is this gonna be the last Buffy this year too? by MVisco	Nov 18th, 2002 10:21:19 AM
I hate that this week's Angel will be the last one this year, please don't tell me Buffy is gonna go away for awhile then too. At least January will bring us new Angel, the new seasons of The Dead Zone & The Sheild, as well as my b-day. Whoo-hoo! I'll be 24 and I'll be sitting at home watching even more TV.
missed Buffy in the Motor City by Zen Man	Nov 18th, 2002 10:24:37 AM
Someone please help this poor Metro detroit resisdent who totally missed the last episode of Buffy because it was preempted by the fucking Red Wings! Don
Sleeping Beauty by DyslexicHeart	Nov 18th, 2002 10:27:46 AM
"Angel" has been pretty slow-moving in the overall plot department but it has remained interesting, as has "Buffy", so I wouldn't complain so much. And Aimee Mann's line was in the promo last week so we're already spoiled.
I'm just happy... by ashton75	Nov 18th, 2002 10:30:17 AM
to see that Buffy seems to have gotten back on track this season. Now if only Angel can be tweaked with a bit. I find myself unable to stop channel surfing during that show anymore. Never a good sign of where things are headed.
Zenman - At least go read an episode summary... by Damitol	Nov 18th, 2002 10:35:13 AM
Lots of stuff that will impact the rest of the season happened last episode. I finally saw it last night, and I have to state the obvious in saying that this season has been some of the consistantly best Buffy I've seen since season 3. Adam was OK and Glory had it's moments, but they almost lost me with Nerds of Doom and Evil Willow last year. With this probably being the last season of Buffy as we know it and both Farscape and Futurama airing their last episodes this spring, I will be effectivly taking myself out of the advertising demographic pool next year and spending most TV time with my DVD player.
Does Aimee Mann perform in HOTPANTS? by Gellar's Ass	Nov 18th, 2002 10:36:30 AM
Some of us gots to know! As previously mentioned, they did spoil her good line in the promo -- unless she's got another zinger for us. **** I take it the "Angel" and "Buffy" storylines have now completely diverged, eh. I.e., the "WITH HIM" demon on "Angel" is not related to the "Starting with your bottom" big bad on "Buffy."
Zen Man---Wkbd sucks! by HarleyQuinn12	Nov 18th, 2002 10:42:23 AM
They screwed up big time! Conversations with Dead People aired 2pm on Saturday instead of the two previous announced times on Sunday. They changed it the night before. Sorry you missed it!
Hey Zen Man by mikehammer	Nov 18th, 2002 10:43:34 AM
Buffy was on Saturday at 2:00 pm in the Motor City. It is no wonder that Buffy's ratings suck when we have these crappy UPN affiliates that pre-empt their own shows all the time! In the future you can always check Buffy's schedule at www.upn50.com
So what's more grisly? by Chilli Kramer	Nov 18th, 2002 10:54:30 AM
The murders, or the fact that Aimee Mann is singing? (Sorry Mann fans, nothing against her songwriting, but I have an irrational hatred of the sound of her voice. It just annoys me.) Apart from that, this seems good. Trouble's a-brewing....
so when did my favorite slayer become so unlikeable? by sejin	Nov 18th, 2002 11:09:35 AM
I am so sooooo sick of the Buffy/Spike "thing." Just GET OVER IT. This has been dragging along for so long that I wish it had never begun. So now Buffy has to spend more time with Spike. Whoop-dee-doo. Prepare for my eyes to roll back into my head as I slip into a coma. This season has been much better than the painfully annoying season 6, but it hasn't regained the same spark. Probably because I cannot seem to like the heroine, Buffy. I started watching because she was interesting. I wanted to be her or be her friend. But now I it's hard to like her capriciousness, her immaturity, and her blocks of weird depression. I don't expect her to be Sunny Sunshine all the time, but come on. This is a TV show. I want to be entertained. To get that you need a main character you LIKE! I still hate Dawn, and the cool scenes in the Summer's house (Conversations with Dead people) was tainted with her constant ear-piercing shrieks. Dawn, honey, you are hurting my eardrums. I found myself reliving the "Get out! Get out! GET OUT!" scene. Ahh, the misery. Point is, the writer's have been doing great things with plotting and funny dialogue and such. BUT. If they cannot get on the ball with characterizaton, the plotlines just fall flat. I hope Joss is reading these talkbacks and taking note. It's probably the last season, and I would love the series to end on a fantastic note rather than, "I watched faithfully for seven seasons for this crappy ending?" Ok, rant over.
gotta agree on the Buffy/Spike thing... by TV CASUALTY	Nov 18th, 2002 11:25:01 AM
Move on. Time to kill that plot line. Introduce a new beau. Let her go celebate for a while. Whatever. Attempted rape aside, I think this relationship needs to go away. Other than that, this season has been great so far, and the big bad seems REALLY badass. As for the Aimee Mann thing, I'm not as anti-Mann as Mr. Kramer (I dug the Magnolia stuff), but I'm not too excited about it either. Come to think of it, there hasn't really been a band on this show to light my fire. The Breeders - I can't stand 'em. OK, this was a pointless post and for that I apologize. My last point - someone should get killed off this season. Someone important. Who's it gonna be? Discuss.
response to pulp by sejin	Nov 18th, 2002 12:21:59 PM
I am simply stating my opinions on this show, as it is a talk-back forum. Please don't tell me what to watch or make assumptions about my viewing habits. I am a discerning viewer. Just because I don't blindly follow Joss Whedon and idolize the show doesn't make me brainless. Again, I am not saying that Buffy needs to happy all the time. yes, it is an ensemble show. BUT, Buffy Summers is supposed to be the heart of the show. BTVS is the title and it centers around her life as the Chosen One. kay? And I also appreciate the unexpected--that is why Buffy has been one of the greatest shows of our generation. However, I still stand by my opinion that the writers have taken Buffy's character in the wrong direction. Yes, we all get depressed. But how is it that Buffy can have SEX with Spike in the balcony in the Bronze and then next season call her sister a "slut" for dancing in revealing clothes? Then Buffy has no qualms about protecting Spike while going all slayer-bound with Anya. Buffy has turned into a self-righteous hypocrite. Remember in season 3, she was all boooo at Faith saying "We are the law?" And she just said the same thing a few eps ago. Then there was that strange and off-putting moment when Willow calls in about the dead frat guys. And Buffy's all "Aww, so sad." And then turns around with a perky, "So, didya get that class ya wanted?" Say what? Frankly, it seems that Buffy is regressing in maturity. She seems much more mature a few seasons ago than now. Even Cordelia has become more mature than Buffy. And that just irritates me. I used to like Buffy, flaws and all. These days I can't wait for her to get off the screen. The only character who I really like these days is Anya. Too bad she always gets pushed to the sidelines. Oh well. But if being critical of the show makes me a "bad" fan, then a big OH WELL to that.
pulp, your condescending attitude is pretty obnoxious... by TV CASUALTY	Nov 18th, 2002 12:36:55 PM
People are entitled to like something for different reasons, you know. And dislike things for different reasons as well. I get why you like the show, though I don't agree with all of it. I look for different things in this show, I guess. And it's not that I think it's bad that Buffy's unlikeable, I just think that it's gone on for long enough. I don't believe your post was directed at me, but it seemed to deserve a response from someone. I'm not crazy about your idea that you're a "better" viewer than someone else. Get off your high horse.
Chilli by AngelTash	Nov 18th, 2002 01:43:49 PM
Hi! I'm not all excited about Aimee Mann being on the show either. Then again, I didn't see Magnolia, so I might be missing something.
Chilli by AngelTash	Nov 18th, 2002 01:45:12 PM
Hi! I'm not all excited about Aimee Mann being on the show either. Then again, I didn't see Magnolia, so I might be missing something.
to AngelTash, and others: by 93curr	Nov 18th, 2002 02:54:14 PM
Well, you're missing the point of the whole 'Respect the crueller. And TAME the donut!" line, but other than that... And O/T; I'm not sure that it's so wrong to place people who want TV to act as an emotional substitute beneath those who want it to act as a work of art. Although, don't we all agree that 'Hamlet' would have been better had they made the lead guy a little more likeable? I almost wanted to be friends with him, but he was just so darn melancholy all the time! Personally, I could spend all day making posts about what these characters (ALL of em!) should do, but that doesn;t mean that I'd be happy if they did it. Hell, even in the case of pure entertainment crap like 'Friends' the show only really works when they're emphasizing the characters' flaws, when they're mature and happy and emotionally stable, I start to nod off. There are a lot of valid criticisms (maybe not as many as some people have made, but a lot) about season six, but that Buffy should have acted more like a hero isn't one of them. Hell, Buffy didn't even defeat Razor in the first episode last year; Tara did. There was NO reason to bring her back, beynd Willow's selfishness. And she served NO purpose in saving the world 21 episodes later. Her and li'l sis were trapped in an uber-grave fighting something completely irrelevant to the proceedings. The world was saved without her. Hero? Why?
AngelTash... by TV CASUALTY	Nov 18th, 2002 04:30:42 PM
You're definitely missing something, and not just the soundtrack. Run, do not walk, and rent Magnolia. That said, I maintain that there is a terrible egotism in saying that one is a "better" fan than someone else simply because you view the material differently. I have the suspicion that JW created this show for anyone to enjoy, and not all of them for necessarily the same reasons. It's one thing to argue that the show is good versus bad, but arguing over your level of enjoyment, and that your are somehow more "deep" and impotrant because you agree with teh current plot line is just plain stupid. Just my thought...
anyone who is a fan of Spuffy pre-smashed will love this episode by allnamesaretaken	Nov 18th, 2002 06:28:38 PM
I love this episode,its amazing,its about time they give James Marstars something more than 2 minutes of screen time. GIVE JAMES A EMMY! and oh yeah,why does Herc always rate the episodes that have low comedy a bad rating? what the hell did he give the body? This episode kicked Apocalypce Nowish's ass,if the beast had killed Connor in that fight than Angel would be the better show this week but sadly not,BtVS s7 is shaping up great!
i've got some problems! by raisingarizona	Nov 18th, 2002 07:00:18 PM
a few things - first of all, why is the wildfeed not up yet?? does anyone know of a source other than leoff? also, last week when dawn tried to call buffy and she didn't answer, why didn't she try xander or anya or even her frend kit? i can't stand dawn, sorry. she was so cute back when she was on "pete and pete" but now she's just annoying. also, just an opinion about this whole first evil thing. the guy who played the beast on angel last night (who was in "the 13th warrior" - how cool was that?) said that he was positive that he was satan. so i think that it's not going to be the same thing as on angel and maybe whoever said last week that this evil was some sort of spirit of the earth was right.
the big bad is not no damn spirit of earth by allnamesaretaken	Nov 18th, 2002 07:22:14 PM
its the first evil,but its not the only big bad,the international enity behind the SIT killings are also going to be a problem.
ugh,double negatives! by allnamesaretaken	Nov 18th, 2002 07:23:14 PM
n/t
Just to clarify... by Chilli Kramer	Nov 18th, 2002 07:25:03 PM
I realise Aimee Mann can write songs, but I just have a weird prejudice against her voice. I didn't like Magnolia either, yet I could recognise that it was a well made piece of work. Damn. There must be something wrong with me. Maybe I watch too many Kevin Smith films? I dunno, it's all so irrational. So anyway... Spike and Buffy: that's a weird (and getting weirder) kinda relationship. And if someone's gonna die, it will be Dawn, methinks, for some 'Key' related reason, presumably at the end of the season.
Hooray! by BRTick	Nov 18th, 2002 07:29:10 PM
Amiee Mann ON Buffy! Coolness overload!
Hamlet lives! Or not. by Atomic Lobster	Nov 18th, 2002 07:30:24 PM
Well said, Pulpdusk. If it's all fluffy bunnies and happy ever after, it's not a TV show, it's a screen saver. On a similar note, I'm starting to wonder if ME are going to do something really gutsy in what may be the last year and make the show's lead the new big bad... hence the drafting in of Faith to bring her down. Nobody would be expecting that (or the Spanish inquisition) but it's the sort of blow-your-mind ending that made Blakes 7 legendary instead of forgettable low-budget sci fi.
OH yeah by allnamesaretaken	Nov 18th, 2002 07:31:31 PM
Spike punching out Xander should please alot of people!
sorry to offend by raisingarizona	Nov 18th, 2002 07:49:21 PM
there was no "woofin'... outrage ... and ... nonsense." i did happen to look around a bit, but obviously not in the right places. i shouldn't have to do research before i ask a simple question. also, if buffy is the big bad this season, how does the "from beneath you it devours" relate? i didn't do any research on this, so please don't be pissed at me.
Barry,stop posting your by allnamesaretaken	Nov 18th, 2002 08:08:55 PM
shitty poems!
poetry? by raisingarizona	Nov 18th, 2002 08:58:59 PM
bwstarwars, everyone has a right to be here, but i'm sure that you can find a place where you are appreciated. obviously no one here wants to read your poems anymore, so why not try to find that other place? i'm not being mean, just realistic.
merc's answer by raisingarizona	Nov 18th, 2002 09:11:15 PM
i really don't know what to think about anything. alot of theories sound good, but who knows? i am tending to think joyce was not joyce though, cause it seemed like they were going out of their way to make us think it was her - like she was all glowy. btw, raising arizona is just my fave movie - i didn't mean anything deep by choosing that name. "son, you got a panty on your head."
Xander is not a hypocrite by RogueScribner	Nov 18th, 2002 10:01:13 PM
You compare the actions of a guy when he was 17 and 22, Merc? So because when Xander was 17 he had an anti-vampire/anti-people who hurt my friends agenda and the world he lived in was black and white, but now that he's 22 he sees the grey area and, much like Luke trying to save Vader, sees good beneath the evil he's a hypocrite? Funny, in my world that's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! More than 4 years have passed between those events. He's loved and lost and experienced hell on earth. He also fell in-love with an ex-demon. You don't think that changes a man? A hypocrite is a person who professes beliefs and opinions that they do not hold. Xander stood by his convictions in Season 2 (more than once) and he stands by them now. Just because his life experience has altered his beliefs doesn't make him a hypocrite. If Xander believes Anya is worth saving but not Spike, that would be hypocritical. But I have yet to see him make such a statement. I swear people's hatred for Xander blind them to the truth sometimes. Is everyone here in love with Spike? Yeesh! L8r
raising arizona by chickenmonkey	Nov 18th, 2002 10:35:49 PM
I've tried the high road with this bwstarwars character. Wrote him a lengthy, tolerant, sympathetic letter in last week's TB, pleading that he at least come up with something new. (See that "version 5.3" or whatever? Every time he changes A WORD (and sometimes just for the hell of it) he posts the entire poem again.) Well, in response, poetry-boy posted the Yeats he's ripping off alongside his own, and claimed that his poem was far superior. He then informed me about his head cheese, told us all to beep him if the Apocalypse comes, and wished the Force upon us. Since then, there's been no more Mr. Nice Guys from any of us TalkBackers. Personally, whenever I stumble across one of his poems, I find it therapeutic to imagine this shy, sensitive soul, swathed in an Obi-Wan cloak, pimpled face open with optimistic innocence, decapitated by a plastic spork. But that's just me. Give it time. After version 9.3, you too will be turned to the dark side. Join us!
Actually, Merc, the ire is because he WAS being serious.. by chickenmonkey	Nov 18th, 2002 10:55:01 PM
Here's the link: ** http://www.aintitcool.com/tb_d isplay.cgi?id=13779#537376 ** And hey, maybe he and Angel can carpool. I hear the vacuum of space is lovely this time of year.
chickenmonkey by raisingarizona	Nov 18th, 2002 11:11:46 PM
i read all that last week too from bwstarwars (and i laughed my ass off at your parody!). i was just trying not to dis him cause i was dissed a few comments back. but i'm sure there are plenty of places out there that really would appreciate him - i just wish he would go find them. he was on the angel talk back yesterday. btw, i got my old "state" video out yesterday because of you. and everyone's that's down on aimee mann, i have 2 words for you . . . "voices carry!" she may have had stupid hair then, but she's as cool as hell.
Xander as a hypocrite by FatXander	Nov 18th, 2002 11:39:27 PM
ok, actually merc xander was upset at buffy's hypocracy. He didn't say spike should die, just that buffy let him live because she was with him but she was fine with killing any other demons, even if someone loved them. Letting spike stay with him and going out with him to stop RJ in 7x06 shows his opening up. Go back and watch the episode. also consider his emotions at the time. he's always been the most honest character, playing off his emotions. thats what he adds to the group. he's the most realistic out of all of them. I grew up a year behind the series grade wise (i started 2nd season in my sophomore year) and i grew the same way as xander. jsut because he's not as funny as he used to be doesnt mean he has nothing to offer. if the writters gave him a little more, i gurantee he's be back to form. this has always been an ensemble show, it needs the charcters around buffy to make it, hence the abysmal season 6. ok, i'm done
You seem to be confused, Merc by RogueScribner	Nov 18th, 2002 11:42:07 PM
Xander never said that Spike wasn't worth saving. You're hearing the dialogue, but not listening to the conversation. ///// BUFFY: I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon. XANDER: And you're the slayer. I see now how it's all very simple. BUFFY: It is never simple. XANDER: No, of course not. You know, if there's a mass-murdering demon that you're, oh, say, boning, then it's all gray area. BUFFY: Spike was harmless. He was helping. XANDER: He had no choice. ///// Where exactly does Xander say that Anya is worth saving but not Spike? It seems to me that Xander was drawing a comparison between how Buffy has disregarded Spike's past because he was useful while Anya must be dealt with in a terminal capacity. Xander was making the point that Anya is no worse than Spike as far as their pasts are concerned. He was calling Buffy on what he perceived to be HER hypocricy. So now that I've shut down your argument, let me respond to your second point. Xander didn't leave Anya at the alter because he was "scared it might not work." He left Anya at the alter because he was afraid that there'd be nothing but pain, misery and death in their future. Or did you not pay attention to the scene where Future Xander took a frying pan to Future Anya's face? He left because he saw too much of his father in himself and rather than take the chance on becoming disgruntled and abusive (possibly murderous) to Anya, he called off the wedding. He wanted to straighten himself out before committing himself to her. He didn't want the relationship to end. He just wanted to take a step back and restrengthen their foundation, mainly his end of it. If you think he's being a pussy because he cares enough for someone not to want to hurt them, then I feel sorry for anyone you get involved with. So suck on that. L8r
slayer in training by Hypno Toad	Nov 19th, 2002 12:05:40 AM
ok this has bothered me since the beginning of the season. I thought slayers were chosen at random after the old one dies. My problem is how can there be a slayer in training if they dont know who or where or when the new slayer is going to be? Please feel free to correct me. Thanks.
Merc by RogueScribner	Nov 19th, 2002 12:15:52 AM
Let's look at this from Xander's point of view, shall we? What does he know about Anya? She has a shady past. Nothing he's really experienced, though. Xander fell for Anya despite himself (and vice versa) and she's been aiding the Scooby gang in good faith since Season 4. Now Spike. Spike has tried to kill various members of the Scooby Gang and innocent Sunnydale citizens how many times? There was a whop load of that stuff in Season 2. In Season 3 he kidnapped and threatened Willow. In Season 4 he tried to kill Buffy and was a routine thorn in the Scoobies' sides. He only "helped" when his survival was at stake. During Season 5 it was more of the same for Spike, until mid-season when he became obsessed with Buffy. Every helpful act Spike performed in Season 5 can be chocked up to his doing whatever it takes to win Buffy's affections. In Season 6 Spike slept with Buffy and Anya before attempting to rape Buffy. Yeah, I agree. I don't get why Xander wouldn't like Spike. I don't get why he would think Anya is just having a tough time and needs help (like Willow last season) and Spike just needs to die. You're right. Xander is a hypocrite. Buffy knows right and Xander is wrong. Sorry, forgive me. L8r
Like I said, Merc, it's all in POV by RogueScribner	Nov 19th, 2002 12:39:14 AM
This isn't a moral debate by us. It's a debate within the Scooby Gang. Knowledge is overshadowed by experience. It's one thing to know that Anya has been responsible for thousands of deaths. It's another thing to be in Spike's line of fire for four years. Get the difference? It's like how the Scoobies could deal with Angel back in Seasons 1 and 2. They learned of his past crimes, but they didn't become wary of him until after they experienced Angelus' wrath for themselves. And let's forget that Xander's intimate relationship with Anya was while she was human, a being wholly apart from her demon alter ego. Spike is a vampire no matter which way you cut him. It's harder to make excuses for him. L8r
spike and xander by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 12:40:10 AM
Once upon a time, Spike was cool. Then he fell in love with Buffy (freaking plot device!) and he became uncool. Wait, forget that. He got a chip in his head (freaking stupid plot device!) and he became uncool. Point is, Spike has outlived his welcome. I know there are some Spike-loving fans out there who would get majorly peeved at Spike's demise, but come on. He has taken over Xander's throne of uselessness. At least Xander cracks a funny once in a while and makes me giggle. Someone said something about Buffy being art. Screw that. If I want art, I'll visit the Louvre or mosey on over to my book collection. I watch Buffy for entertainment. Kill Spike! Now that would keep me giddy for weeks.
Answer to hypno toads' question about SIT's by Steepdog	Nov 19th, 2002 12:42:44 AM
From what I gather, from season two when Kendra showed up, and the original film (which Whedon has stayed pretty faithful to as far as continuity goes) Slayers are like jedi, born with powers and identified at a very early age and trained until they are "called." Kendra mentions training since she was young, but she never bounced around hunting vamps until Buffy "died". In the film, there is mention of a "slayer's mark" which presumeabley identifies the child as a slayer. When Merrick mentions it to Buffy she replies "Ew, that hairy mole? I had that thing removed!" ...Of course, the movie also had Buffy coming down with PMS every time a vampire was near, and that's never been brought up on the show,I don't think(thank goodness) On the OTHER hand, they do make frequent mention of Buffy burning down her old school gym, which happened in the film. The question would be why wasn't buffy found and trained when she was younger?
The school gym wasn't burned down by Dink88	Nov 19th, 2002 12:51:54 AM
Actually Whedon hasn't stayed faithful to the film all that well. In the film the gym never burns down, not even a flicker. But it does get wrecked quite a bit. Also the vampire slayer and watcher are always the same persons, just reincarnated... or is it resurrected? Anyway, the film is about 50% true to the tv series. I'd really like to know whats the deal with SITs too. Can't wait to hear their explanation.
GYm Burning by Steepdog	Nov 19th, 2002 12:56:52 AM
I could have sworn they burnt it down with all the vamps inside. maybe it's just my brain imagining it from the TV show's suggestion. I'll have to watch it again, if for no other reason than Christy Swanson is hotter than SMG, sorry , but it's so true.
Slayers Called by hellboy15	Nov 19th, 2002 12:59:03 AM
I imagine the watchers also read many a propecy and use a heck of a lot of psychics to try to predict when and where a slayer will be called. The watchers then take the most likely canidates and train them from a young age, and most likely keep an eye on a heck of a lot more than that. The Watchers probably have hundreds, if not thousands of girls being watched.
Anya vs. Spike >>to kill or not to kill by Bored Man	Nov 19th, 2002 01:01:45 AM
Spike: Demon(half) who isnt (in the near future, though these episodes may bring that into question) able to so much as hurt somone, let alone kill them. Anya: Demon who is using her power to bring about death to innocent humans, and is showing no signs of stopping. Buffy had to kill anya, plain and simple. If spike got his chip out and started killing buffy would have to try and kill him too. As for buffy teaming up with Spike in season 2, that was out of necessity. Anya didn't become a target until she caused the deaths of a whole fraternity.
Buffy vs. Buffy by RogueScribner	Nov 19th, 2002 01:08:19 AM
The gym burning down was in the original script, but it was changed for the movie. If you want to compare continuities, check out the BUFFY trade paperback "The Origin". It's a comic book version of the movie, but based on Whedon's original screenplay and not the water-downed movie version. The show matches that continuity better than the movie. L8r
So, um.... how did Buffy "come back wrong" again? by DomisInnerChild	Nov 19th, 2002 01:10:05 AM
Did I just miss an episode, or is that plot line still flapping in the wind? Just wondering why Buffy can be chomped on by Spike, but he can't hurt anybody else... well, other than it sets up plot situations where Buffy can be in danger from Spike. Anyone?
Did I missed something? by dalael35	Nov 19th, 2002 02:12:44 AM
I must have. I keep hearing people say that Buffy will be this season's Big Bad, and that all signs are pointing that way, but I haven't seen anything suggesting this. If people are using Dawn's encounter with her mother as an example, you should really take that one with a grain of salt. Could have EASILY been a trick by the same being that was screwing with Willow's head. I've seen every ep this season, and really don't see where you people are drawing this conclusion from.
The Buffy Comedy Hour by seanbateman1985	Nov 19th, 2002 02:22:59 AM
Why is it whenever Herc has problems with an ep. it is always firstly because it wasn't funny enough? The show has had it's hilarious, and witty moments, and will have more of them in the future-but this isn't Showtime at the Apollo if an episode doesn't have me doubled over in laughter I don't feel that I was cheated. Am I alone here?
Slouching Towards Bethlehem by Sandwich	Nov 19th, 2002 04:20:05 AM
So, if the Beast is Satan, & he's inexorably linked to Connor, & this is all prophesied in W.B Yeats' "Second Coming"- Does that make Connor the Antichrist?
Whoops by Sandwich	Nov 19th, 2002 04:21:08 AM
Wrong TB...
"Spike punching out Xander should please alot of people!" by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 19th, 2002 04:42:31 AM
But he weebles and he wobbles and he won't fall down!
Have to disagree with most people here by Spike fan	Nov 19th, 2002 04:46:36 AM
I cannot belivie that they are saying Spike is boring. Spike this season has been incredibly interesting while JM easily deserves an Emmy. Its hard to digest that people want the old 1-d evil Spike who shows up and gets his ass kicked backed. Sure he said a funny line but he was so boring and predicatble. The newly souled Spike is much more interesting (And better acted) than Angel and he has his own show. ############### As for S6 it was terrible but only cause the writers copped out of an interesting Dark Willow the one that mind raped Tara and threatened Giles for lame Magic addiction druggie Willow. ################ As for Buffy yeah she is dislikable this season as she was last season and I would not care if she was killed off or not so I agree with that.### I would rather see Faith show any day of the week.
I love the Slayers in training by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 19th, 2002 04:48:26 AM
They should all live in Buffy's house, and wear shortie pajamas and have pillow fights and paint each others toenails. They can have a prissy one, a tom boy one, a fat one, and one that wears roller skates, and Buffy can be in charge of them and oh, the wacky misadventures they would have... "You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have, The Slayers in training, the slayers in training! When the World never seems to be living up to your dreams, suddenly you're finding out the Slayers in training are all about Stakinggggggg, Sttttttttttaaakkkkking! All about staking! It takes a lot to get it right, when you're a Slayer in Training! SLAYERS IN TRAINING!"
I'd give it a four ... by Maki Maus	Nov 19th, 2002 05:11:00 AM
I think I liked this episode better than the last one just because it has more to do with human feelings and less to do with cruel games. And does anyone else here get the feeling that James Marsters is going full-bore for an Emmy this year? His performance in this most recent episode is the best I've seen out of him yet, succeeding in being both poignant and intensely creepy. Now that's entertainment.
Is it just me... by Spidey_88	Nov 19th, 2002 07:34:20 AM
... or is anyone else worried about Giles? **SPOILERS WITHIN: Herc says that the hoodies end the episode in England and that the final shot is of Giles in England where he has found out about the hoodies' badness. The final scene is Giles, the shot of a hoodies' face, and then snip of dialogue cuts off rather abruptly. My first impression of all this was that something really nasty happened to our favorite Watcher. I'm only speculating (I'm a bit of a pessimist) but Joss has a way of killing off the people who we like and are usually considered to be "safe" from harm. I kind of doubt he'd make Giles bite the big one, but you never know. It being the last season and all, all bets may be off... Also, ASH's name hasn't really been in the credits much lately and since he's back in this week, could Joss be pulling a Tara? (No credit until death?) Or else, maybe the hoodies are Watchers who are killing their own SIT's? Who knows...
A few things... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Nov 19th, 2002 07:34:46 AM
1) ME's writers officially refer to whatever it is that will probably be the Ultimate Big Bad for this season (and the entire series) as "The First." Not "The First Evil" -- just "The First." 2) Claire Kramer has said in an interview that she will reprise her role as Glory this season. This may tie into the theory that The First is "counting down" in its form from the most recent Big Bad (Warren) to the first season's, The Master. If this is true, then we'll probably see Adam, the Mayor and Drusilla return, too. Notice that Warren's "resurrection" was tied in to Andrew and Jonathan. Thus, logically, Glory's reappearance could be tied in with something that will happen to or affect Dawn. Adam's return may be tied to Spike's chip and his designation as "Hostile 17." The Mayor's appearance would probably happen just as Faith returns. (Perhaps The First manipulates Faith with the Mayor's ghost.) The Drusilla doppelganger could bring back old-school evil Spike. And this all leads back to The Master. Who would his return appearance be tied to? Well... 3) Remember, in "Lessons," The First morphed into Buffy. My take is that The Master's return will create some apocalyptic affect on Buffy. And who is Buffy tied to, in turn? That's right: Her friends and family. "From beneath you it devours." Buffy feels beneath her friends -- but above/superior to them as well. She's kept these feelings of inferiority "down" within herself for years but now they're going to "come up from below." The First and her are already tied together somehow, and perhaps always have been. In fact, they may be one and the same. Think of the surprise plot twist in "Fight Club" -- it looks like something similar is going on here this season, but minus the schizophrenia. This would mean that, essentially, Buffy is the one who is controling Spike -- yep, gang.
slayers-in-training by Mithril	Nov 19th, 2002 07:50:09 AM
To my mind, there are many slayers-in-training, not all of whom ever become slayers. Since there is such a thing as "slayer blood" and there are suggestions that the first slayer was made, they could all be descendants from a single stone-age slayer. If the watchers actually have records going back that far, they could actually have a huge slayer family tree system by which to find future slayers. Buffy falling through the cracks could be the result of her being an unknown descendant (say, if there was an affair somewhere along the line) and was not put into the family tree until later. Now, inside this family tree, maybe the job of "slayer" is only seen in a few people each generation. Or alternatively, the descendence is wholly mystical. In either case, the slayers within larger groups would be identifiable by the "mark of the slayer", which is a birthmark/mole. Actually, I seem to think both Kendra and Faith had a small beauty spot on their faces. I'll have to check pictures to see for sure. Now, either the girls who bear this mark are sieved out from the family tree by they watchers, or the girls with birthmarks can be found globally due to some other mystic things (say, certain birth times - like all new slayers being born on the same date as earlier slayers or slayers in training died, or on certain times with magical/shamanic importance). Either way, Buffy is not found, because she no longer has the "mark of the slayer", having had it removed. Phew, that was convoluted.
Prof. Pop-Cult... by Mithril	Nov 19th, 2002 07:55:00 AM
nice ideas on the Big Bad. I'd just like to comment on the Master and Buffy. In "Prophecy Girl", Buffy said she felt different after being resurrected. If your ideas pan out, the connection with Buffy may stem from this. She was bitten and partly drained by the Master and then she died and came back to life. Though she did not die due to the bite, nor did she come back to life as a vamp. But the other similarities to the cycle of becoming a vamp, and Buffy's words on being resurrected suggest something did happen... Hmm.
actually, a thought just occurred to me... by Mithril	Nov 19th, 2002 08:05:05 AM
if Buffy turns out to be a kind linked to the First, or even end up as the Big Bad, it may be due to her being the Slayer. Since there are some stories that the slayers were made up of demon blood to fight demons, and thus essentially are rooted in evil, not to mention the whole First Slayer's "only death" ideology and Dracula's words about Buffy being linked to the darkness and evil (I always thought she snapped out of his spell when drinking his blood, because the demonic vampire blood called forth the demonic origins of her power and thus her slayerhood), maybe the point is that the evil that all slayer power is inherently drawn from is taking up hold. Maybe the hooded guys are really watchers or members of some other order who know that the evil within the slayers is rising and will soon take over, and are trying to dispose of the threat. Thus, the whole series could end with the whole system of watchers and slayers coming to and end (until Fray, that is). "From beneath you it devours" would then express the idea of the evil coming from beneath Buffy's own skin and from beneath the surface of the whole system set up by the Watchers' Council. Hmm... Discuss.
Mithril by Prof. Pop-Cult	Nov 19th, 2002 08:41:42 AM
It's already been said, established within the series that the powers of the Slayer(s) are rooted in darkness. This could partly explain why Faith fell to the dark side herself. She became drunk with this dark power -- essentially, she felt that she was "above it all and everyone." Willow went dark last season, but I have a strong feeling that her dark powers are nothing when up against the "pure" power of the Slayer. Last season, the fight between Dark Willow and Buffy was nothing. This season, there could be a rematch, and I suspect it will be far more brutal with Buffy with the clear advantage. When EvilCassie said to Willow that she was tired of "the mortal coil," what was she/it talking about? The fact that this line sounds very similar to what Glory said about her situation (being trapped in the body of a mortal) is probably no coincidence. So ask yourself this: What could be The First's "mortal coil"? The logical answer is BUFFY. I like the prediction somebody else brought up in a prior Talkback of Sunnydale High II being completely swallowed up (devoured) by the ground beneath in the finale. A massive earthquake erupts, and the Hellmouth opens up as a massive crater beneath the high school -- a crater that keeps expanding and threatens to swallow up Sunnydale and the entire world unless it's stopped ("from beneath you, it devours"). And in the exact center of this growing crater is EvilBuffy. Imagine a bad-ass computer animation of an overhead shot of the Hellmouth erupting and Sunnydale High II collapsing into it. How else to bring this entire series to (what looks likely to be) an end, than with a big, mind-blowing bang? After 6 seasons of Big Bads of various permutations, it really looks as if Joss is going for an abstract, intangible entity for a big finish. For Spuffy fans, this would mean that Spike is being manipulated not necessarily by some outside enemy or force -- he's being used by Buffy! (This parallels how Buffy used him for another "dark" purpose last season, sex.) All the clues thus far this season, and other hints from prior seasons, point to Buffy.
theory on the Beast in Angel, somewhat related to BTVS by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 10:08:52 AM
Ok, ME seems to be giving off the vibe that the two Big Bads in BTVS and ATS are related. So bear with me as I explain my theory on the origins of The Beast. This comes completely from my imagination so I'm probably wrong but....... So The Beast rose from the exact spot Connor was born. Connor, for all intents and purposes, is human, correct? Not your average human, but I haven't seem anything demonish in him. So what if Connor is the compilation of Angel and Darla's humanity (pre-vamp days?). That explains how someone born from two vamps can be human. The compilation of Angel and Darla's demon/vamp sides are held within The Beast. Remember when Angel was in Pylea and he turned in that crazy ugly demon thing? This is a more extreme version of split personality. Connor and The Beast really were split into two different entities. And somehow, this Beast ties in with Buffy's devour from the bottom thing. Am I totally off here? Can anyone see this is remotely possible?
Watcher's Council, and flopping in the wind plotlines by 93curr	Nov 19th, 2002 10:47:49 AM
The slayers are called, they appear (presumably to keep the balance between good and evil, but by WHOM we do not know) and the watcher's council attempts to keep track of them when they do. There has been no evidence that the Council do anything pro-actively, they just try and control the disposable adolescent girls and use them for their own purposes (which, granted, may well be fairly benign, but still ridiculously patriarchal -Wesley was the ideal watcher, in their eyes, Giles was an aberration). As far as 'Buffy coming back wrong', well Tara based her molecular sunburn theory on the belief that she was aware of the entirety of Willow's spell. I'd bet that there's more to this than we've been led to believe, but -at the moment- I'm going to assume that it's just one more thing the writers are avoiding dealing with in case they want to use it at a later date. It's available as a plot device if they want to use it, if they don't -well, it's not required. But I'd think that Xander, of all people, would at least be wondering why Spike can hurt her and not anyone else (like, you know -him, for example).
Let the Slayer slay! by Randy Giles	Nov 19th, 2002 12:38:07 PM
Let the Slayer slay! Buffy Is Likeable! I can
I just watched the episode by Hamlet3145	Nov 19th, 2002 12:46:07 PM
(downloaded from IRC) and I have to say . . . I have no idea how you-know-who could possibly survive that coming blow.
Qwerty, your a riot. by Rude_Kaiser	Nov 19th, 2002 01:44:29 PM
That was good one. Glad you moved to new material. But I have to say that Buffy is better than the soap opera that Angel is becoming. ****Silveragent: Your bais against all things that is Spike makes all your arguments suspect. Nothing you say is reliable anymore. Quit twisting the fact and become an objective viewer. Buffy is not admired or liked by many fans because she's being portrayed as a bitch. Not many people want to identify with a hero like that. People can identify with Spike's struggle and journey. Who hasn't love and lost? Who, at some point, hasn't been or felt "beneath" the person they loved? People like Spike's journey and his faults. Spike isn't taking away anything from Buffy. Her own characterization is taking away from the character. Stop being baised and pointing the finger at Spike. Instead focus on the problems with the main character and at times lazy writers. Fanboys, DIE, DIE, DIE!!!
Their Neighbors? Willows Parents? by Skanky_Tony	Nov 19th, 2002 02:06:10 PM
Do Buffy and Dawn even have neighbors? Not once can I remember a scene where the neighbors come over and say what is with all the destruction at your house!?! Surely after the house completly became trashed, the neighbors came over to see what happened!?! Also, doesn't willow have parents? I found it odd how they didn't even address that when WIllow first came back to Sunnydale. All the time she was looking for her friends, why did'nt she just go to her parents house? Why doesn't Xander visit his parents?
thought this was interestin by raisingarizona	Nov 19th, 2002 02:20:01 PM
This Came from Wanda at E! Online: QUESTION: Are the Big Bads on Buffy and Angel related? "From beneath you, it devours" seems pretty much like the big bad on Angel last night. WANDA'S ANSWER: Ding, ding, ding! And a Kewpie doll for the lady.
is this thing on? by tvc15	Nov 19th, 2002 02:22:05 PM
hullo?
skanky tony by raisingarizona	Nov 19th, 2002 02:25:20 PM
back to my earlier question and to add to tony's list, why didn't dawn try to call anyone else after buffy didn't answer? and why hasn't anyone called giles yet? (i know he's coming back later, but i still would've called him already!)
wkbd lied by tvc15	Nov 19th, 2002 02:37:56 PM
sorry about the last post. so anyway. wkbd ran a crawl during last week's ep saying that it would be on last sunday at 4. so, vcr is set and ready and i end up watching an hour of Something to talk about. now i find out that they ran the ep on saturday . (i'm in michigan too.just not Detroit). shouldn't they rerun this since they lied to us? i wouldnt really care, except it sounds like a great episode. grrrr.
Zen Man re:Detroit/ Spidey 88 re:Giles by SkiffyPup	Nov 19th, 2002 02:39:25 PM
Zen, bummer man. You can read the wildfeed of the Eps you missed at leeoffline.com , Or, you can go onto the Buffy Boards at TelevisionWithoutPity.com ... They have a forum for getting tapes from others! Help and be helped.****** Spidey... Re:Giles, you haven't been paying enought net attention, dear. He was just in LA last week for another Ep, thinks this season is the last, but has no word... only veteran knowledge hunch. I think he signed on for six eps or something, but no way to tell.
Big bads by GypsyTRobot	Nov 19th, 2002 03:46:02 PM
this is slightly off-topic but since someone asked about possible connection between the BBs of Angel and Buffy . . . The actor playing the BB on Angel claims that his character pretty much is the devil. So what does this mean for Morphy over on Buffy? First evil as spawned on earth by the devil . . . the devil being on two shows at the same time . . . ??? Or bitpart actor not really knowing what the hell is going on?
reposting.. since the ordering got messed up.. by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 03:54:08 PM
Somehow my post got placed toward the top so I am reposting. Sorry! Anyway. ----- Ok, ME seems to be giving off the vibe that the two Big Bads in BTVS and ATS are related. So bear with me as I explain my theory on the origins of The Beast. This comes completely from my imagination so I'm probably wrong but....... So The Beast rose from the exact spot Connor was born. Connor, for all intents and purposes, is human, correct? Not your average human, but I haven't seem anything demonish in him. So what if Connor is the compilation of Angel and Darla's humanity (pre-vamp days?). That explains how someone born from two vamps can be human. The compilation of Angel and Darla's demon/vamp sides are held within The Beast. Remember when Angel was in Pylea and he turned in that crazy ugly demon thing? This is a more extreme version of split personality. Connor and The Beast really were split into two different entities. And somehow, this Beast ties in with Buffy's devour from the bottom thing. Am I totally off here? Can anyone see this is remotely possible?
Dawn's phone call by FatXander	Nov 19th, 2002 04:27:07 PM
Alright, Dawn only called buffy because...... IT WAS HER MOTHER TALKING TO HER!! If she hears joyce how the hell do you think shes going to call? her sister. she wanted to let buffy know joyce was in the house. she didnt call anyone else because thier not related to joyce. at that point dawn was trying to talk to her mom, she wasnt scared of a demon yet. She wanted buffys help in contacting thier mom and she wanted buffy to hear her also. And as far as neighbors, how well would the show work if neighbors were crawling around everywhere? it's fantasy, lets not get to ubergeek.
You got it, Sejin! by crooney	Nov 19th, 2002 04:27:53 PM
I think you nailed it right on the head, Sejin. That's the best theory I've heard so far on the Beast. Now we just have to figure out what it has to do (if anything) with Morphy.
Angel . . . ehhh by GypsyTRobot	Nov 19th, 2002 05:07:19 PM
I'm dissing the character, not the show. Come on, Angel is the one reason not to watch "Angel." David Boreanaz is unattractive, he is not a good actor, his character is every bit as unlikable as Buffy's. I could happily watch "Angel" without ever seeing Angel again. I like Connor more than I do Angel and Connor is one step away from becoming a de-virginated Wesley Crusher or (god help us all) Adric.
i agree with silveragent by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 05:08:33 PM
like the majority of Buffy fans, I loved Spike. He was genuinely a cool character. He was wicked and I loved it. The fans clamored for More Spike! And ME gave us what we wanted, but in a way that took him in the wrong direction. To get more screen time, Spike had to be thrown in with the Scoobies somehow. He couldn't be a Big Bad, cause then he would die at the end of the season. So they chipped him. That sucked b/c he couldn't be wicked anymore. The most he could do was do that lame Yoko Ono thing. So blah blah more seasons pass and then ME decides to make Spike fall in love with Buffy. This was just the worst thing they could do with not just Spike, but Buffy. They could have at least executed it better. But as Silveragent said, the focus fell on Spike when it should have been on Buffy. He seemed to bring out the worst in her. Or at the least, he certainly didn't help her get better. By the end of season 6, I couldn't find myself enjoying either Spike or Buffy--both of whom I used to love. I am not crazy about his new soul, but I really really hope that ME redeems Spike's characterization through this. Do some kinda magic that will give him that spark that he lost years ago. (BTW, I don't blame James Marsters for my issues with Spike. James is a fine actor. I think ME really screwed up the characterization.)
oh and one more thing on the Beast by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 05:09:12 PM
So if my theory on the Beast happens to be correct (or along those lines) then maybe Wes didn't get that prophecy wrong after all. B/c if the Beast comes from Angel and Darla's union, then he pretty much is Angel's son. And Angel needs to kill him right? heh. My mind is spinning. Can't wait to find out how wrong I am. On another note, dang it Joss!! Can you find an actor that actually HAS physical chemistry with Cordelia?? Her and Angel were painful to watch together, her and Conner make me nauseous. Oops, this is the Buffy thread. Sorry...
fat Angel-- GypsyTRobot by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 05:16:39 PM
hahha.. I just keep posting and posting.. 50 minutes left @ work! Gotta kill time somehow. Re: Angel. I agree with GypsyTRobot. Why, oh why, are they letting the lead character become so unattractive? Honestly, I started watching Buffy only because I thought Angel was hot. heh. My, how times have changed. Can't they put DB on a diet or something? Get him a gym membership? This wouldn't bother me (Xander's appearance isn't an issue for me) but Angel is supposed to be an immortal vampire who fights evil. He needs to be in good shape. He looks like he packed on 35 lbs since season 1 of Angel. Cordelia.. she's beautiful but the hair is just wrong. What happened to her beautiful long dark hair that I envied so much?! She definitely looks 30 with the way they've been dressing her and doing her hair/makeup. Fred is cute, but way too skinny. Really, the only reason I watch Angel is because I find myself intrigued by Wesley. He has turned into a verified hottie. Tho his romps with Lilah are a little strange.
Seijn's Split-Personality Theory by chickenmonkey	Nov 19th, 2002 05:18:44 PM
If big ol' PlasticHorn is the mirror image of more-human-than-human Connor, then by destroying one, you'd destroy the other. Once somebody figures this out, then Angel will have nothing to do with either's destruction. So snap W&H (acting in their own interests) perform an Angel soulectomy so that he can kill his own kid and save the world in time for W&H's previously scheduled Apocalypse. *** If this is the case, then the only tie between Connor's Shadow and Buffy's Morphy would be thematic: Both being balances. (In Buffy's case, Cassie stated to Willow that she was through with balancing this whole good vs. evil thing. In my opinion, this Big Bad is a reflection of Willow's god-like power, Buffy's god-like strength, and Dawn's mystical whateverthehellitis, and is set out on destroying them to stop having to exert so much effort in keeping balance by sending bad guys to keep the good guys in check.) We'll see, I guess. *** Questions, though: Why did the Angel baddie take so long to manifest? Connor's hormones? Even more reason for Connelia to make me say IT'S WROOOOOOONNNNNNGGGG!
Hey at least the fat jokes by GypsyTRobot	Nov 19th, 2002 05:47:46 PM
are better than BWStarwars' poetry. Just scroll past the two-line posts if you're really opposed to laughing. But no more plastic horn jokes please, you might hurt the feelings of the guy who made those plastic horns.
Sejin is Silveragents Yes boy! Ha. by Rude_Kaiser	Nov 19th, 2002 05:53:44 PM
First, to the person who called Vladimir Kulida a bit actor, your an idiot. He has been in more movies that David B. and is a better actor. Dummy. Sejin: do you have any thoughts of your own? Silveragent: give me a break. The Spike and Buffy scene at the dumpster last for 2 seconds. Spike was in less scenes last year than any other character except Clem. His storyline is just more interesting than the others and his character is played by a fine actor. Buffy has also saved Spike as much as he has saved her. The problem with S6 wasn't Spike. It was everyone. The writer's didn't sale the dark theme well. They didn't mix in the action and light humor that many fans have come to expect. The chemistry between JM and SMG is there. Buffy/Spike could have worked just like Wes/Liyla (even though I fear their turning the soap opera corner now) but instead we got bondage and s/m. Silver, get the chip off your shoulder and post about other characters if Spike makes you feel bad. Don't ruining the love of a great character for the rest of us.
Hey, Gypsy... by chickenmonkey	Nov 19th, 2002 05:57:58 PM
What did the letter say? (And, okay. I'll stop with the horny jokes. The creature was actually pretty cool. I'll admit it, damnit. -- It was really just the ending that colored the whole show wrong for me.)
my momma didn't raise no stupenagel! by raisingarizona	Nov 19th, 2002 06:51:18 PM
boy, things are heated in here and the ep. hasn
Tune Spike is humming by Braider	Nov 19th, 2002 08:06:01 PM
Oh. My. God. That's both hilarious and creepy. The words of the tune Spike is humming as he buries the girl are, "oh, don't deceive me, oh, never leave me. How could you use a poor maiden so?" It's a song about a girl who was jilted by the guy who promised to marry her.
"Uncool" Spike by asantiago72	Nov 19th, 2002 08:13:16 PM

Spike stealing the show by asantiago72	Nov 19th, 2002 08:14:49 PM

Rude_Kaiser by sejin	Nov 19th, 2002 08:43:23 PM
I am a girl, not a boy. And agreeing with someone doesn't make you unoriginal.
holy... cow... by aphekqs	Nov 19th, 2002 08:59:23 PM
all in all, a not bad ep, until... BLAMMO! that ending! i'm amazed.
NO DAMN YOU by el oso	Nov 19th, 2002 08:59:32 PM
NOT GILES!!!
Giles had better not be dead...... by Jarek	Nov 19th, 2002 09:00:16 PM
...... this season is great. It reminds me of the really intense earlier seasons, and nobody seems safe. Great work all around.
Giles by Braider	Nov 19th, 2002 09:01:01 PM
At least it was a committed, even-level head-height stroke. If his reflexes go off in time, it'll be easy enough to duck.
WOW! great ep. by raisingarizona	Nov 19th, 2002 09:06:10 PM
just a few ramblings on my part . . . so buffy is all coat and scarf, and there
Frustrated... by Funkaboo	Nov 19th, 2002 09:20:40 PM
I just have to voice a frustration with tonight's episode and most tv shows in general. Ever notice how much drama and time would be saved if characters just OPENED THEIR DAMN MOUTHS!!!? Does Dawn wanna believe so badly that Joyce spoke to her that she'd ignoree years of experience with dealing with Big Bads and the like? Why didn't Willow specifically say, "Look, I thought the dead girl was really delivering messages from Tara 'til she told me to slit my wrists." Then Dawn, if she had half a brain would say, "Oh, then that explains it. That couldn't have been my Mom telling me not to trust Buffy cause I mean, hell, just less than two years ago she jumped into a big pool of otherworldly light and died for me." But noooooo, everyone sits all tight-lipped and then actually questions whether or not what Spike was saying was true. "Do you think something was talking to him, making him do things?" Hello? If it walks like a shapeshifter.... This kind of behavior would fly maybe in the first season but after seven years of dealing w/ all kinds of badness, you would think they'd be a little less naive. Especially Buffy. Also, I don't know who's going to hell faster. Willow for offering to kill Anya next week or Buffy for actually considering it. :-)
The devil by Braider	Nov 19th, 2002 09:40:02 PM
....actually, the idea of Satan as an evil thing came along in historic times, as a political tool to bind together the tribes of Judea. Originally "satan" simply meant obstacle, and was sometimes used to refer to an angel sent by God to keep someone from doing something He didn't approve of. Going by that....yeah, it's real easy for the first evil to be before the devil.
Yawn! by Buff-Angel	Nov 19th, 2002 10:38:04 PM
After the action and excitement of Angel the other night...this episode about put me to sleep. I hope this isn't a bad sign for the rest of the season.
many comments by CookieGirl	Nov 19th, 2002 10:41:26 PM
ok, here goes...1) Giles is not going to die...read the TB's before you post, it's been brought up more than once that he is not dying this week. 2) Have you ever seen that many people outside after dark in Sunnydale before? I mean I was amazed at how many people were just hanging around outside waiting for Spike or some other vamp to come get them. 3) Spidey-88, I understand your UPN frustrations. I missed the Angel "back to the past" ep. because the storms knocked out my cable...it sucks 4) All while watching Angel hearing Cordy say "it's coming up to get us" all I could think of was "from beneath us, it devours" they are so connected! 5) the BB wanted Buffy to kill Spike, the same way it wanted Willow dead. It knowsthat it's plan would go easier if Buffy has no allies 6)Buffy won't be the big bad, it's not in the spirit of the show. Morphy will use her image to complicate things, but she's not BB. 7) (LAST COMMENT) Joyce's morph was lying. The whole "evil things sometimes tell the truth" just made Dawn believe Joyce more. Dawn and Willow both should have put the whole coversations on the table, they should know better by now, but them not talking probably advances the storyline in a way we are not seeing yet. That's all...
All Hail Me ! by Mr. Smegma	Nov 19th, 2002 11:00:59 PM
Frickin' told ya LAST WEEK that Spike was REALLY offing and vamping. "Maybe it's Morphy" my ass. Now we gotta see how they get Spike "off the juice." Jeez, another addiction metaphor. Who's picking scripts, Joss or the Drug Czar? But we gotta endure this arc so we know that Spike is "cured." How many more eppies left anyway? We need steady progression with the BB lest everything grind to a halt. I, for one, want to see the Scoobs under assault and the sense that anything could happen at anytime. Presumably Giles will make his way back to tease out what exactly the robed dudes are doing. Kinda weird that they are just killing Slayers, or at least we haven't seen any ritual stuff. Slayer blood is 'posed to be powerful stuff.
how morphy could tie into sejin's theory by Steepdog	Nov 19th, 2002 11:03:27 PM
I like the theory that the Beast is conner's "demon half." It makes a lot of sense, and explains how Angel will kill "the son" without killing Conner (yeah, I know we all want him dead but I have a feeling he's going to be sticking around for a while). In the book of Revelation in the bible, there are two beasts. The first beast is described more as manipulating people and causing people to follow it, it's physical description is more symbolic than literal.(Morphy anyone?) Then John says he "saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and it had two horns like to those of a lamb, but spoke as does a dragon" (this not only physically describes the beast we saw on Angel, but also describes it's dual nature,ie. conner/Beast.) It goes on to say "it did great signs, so as even to make fire come down from heaven..." This beast seems to be more of a physical entity the way it is described in the chapter. Now, it is very likely that I am on as much crack as sejin and this is all a load of hooey, but it's food for thought...or at least merciless lambasting by fellow talkbackers.
Hmmm.... Yeah... by chickenmonkey	Nov 19th, 2002 11:09:56 PM
Then maybe Cordelia is actually the Whore of Babylon who shows up a sentence later riding the back of that beast.
I only say that because by chickenmonkey	Nov 19th, 2002 11:11:32 PM
Condy Nast.
And the Oscar goes to... by dp4m	Nov 19th, 2002 11:43:08 PM
... Spike. Glad to see that they're bumping his award nomination up from Emmy to Oscar... :D
Just a few things by Florice	Nov 19th, 2002 11:52:37 PM
Thank you asantiago72 for speaking my mind exactly...and Enigma. Marsters is phenomenal and always has been. I wonder what the other Steinbecks here would have done exactly to keep him in the story line for 7 seasons as his evil self without getting staked. His transformation has been fabulous story telling, realized by consumate acting. This fan is grateful for the opportunity to watch him week after week. --Anja vs. Spike. Anja embraced vengence and demonhood as a human with a soul. It was her calling. William was an innocent victim, deprived of his humanity, and like Angel cannot be held responsible for his murders, although both of them were noble enough to assume that responsibility anyway...ah my heros of darkness. Anyway, you do the math! --I'm loving this season and I look forward to the crossovers. --Oh yeah! I loved Buffy taking on six vamps all at once. Now that's my Slayer girl!
was that tom petty singing at the bronze? by ryan mecum	Nov 19th, 2002 11:59:30 PM
this episode was dark and odd. i found it to my least fav. of late because it cant stand on its own very well. im glad i was able to get this off my chest.
Spike has gone evil by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 20th, 2002 12:53:35 AM
How do I know? He's wearing LEATHER PANTS! Thats the surest sign of evilness, if there ever was one. Also, I was impressed with how much of a chick magnet Spike is. Who can blame him for killing all those girls, they throw themselves at him, hell, they practically kill themselves and throw their blood in his mouth. Why do they keep calling him a "serial killer" or saying that he is "addicted to blood"? He is a Vampire, after all. The blood keeps him alive. Sure, he's killing people, but by that rational, I'd be a Cow serial killer, and addicted to food. It just seemed silly to me.
Are they fucking crazy? by Psyclops	Nov 20th, 2002 12:54:30 AM
Giles is dead? That's it, I'm not watching this show anymore. You guys at Mutant Enemy have finally screwed yourselves out of loyal viewership by killing off one of the most important characters in the history of television!!! Nah, I'm just messing! I loved the show and that cliffhanger actually had me jumping off the couch and screaming at my television set (which hasn't happened since Aerosmith joined forces with N'Sync at the Superbowl a few years back). Anyway, does anyone else hate those horrible UPN promos? Why the hell are they marketing BTVS like it's 'Sabrina the Teenage Witch'? Lame.
Giles isn't dead . . . by Hamlet3145	Nov 20th, 2002 01:38:12 AM
. . . though there is an axe heading for his noggin at the very end of the episode. How he gets out of it, darned if I know.
giles!! by jendaisy25	Nov 20th, 2002 02:04:00 AM
i would assume giles isn't dead since hes signed on for 10 episodes this season.... but i read somone's random idea about giles dying and the BB morphing into his form, and thats how he might be present. Then i read a spoiler from a reliable source that said not everyone in episode 11? will be who they appear to be. i also watched an interview with marti noxon that said something about giles returning, but didn't want to say more about his role. (or something like that) and that makes me scared. i'm sure its a COMPLETELY wrong idea, so please, someone give me comfort. cause i'm scared. they wouldnt do that, would they?
yay! by ilovetv	Nov 20th, 2002 02:10:27 AM
While I respect your opinions, I have to confess to enjoying this episode a lot and feel that the show seemed to be more on track. It was genuinely menacing and engaging and entertainly. Admittedly, I am a big fan of Buffy/Spike. I think that there's been too much Dawn and not enough Anya (she was so funny in this episode, even if Ms. Caufield has become too thin and it's a bit distracting) and Xander. I don't feel that Josh is as good at developing credible relationships (it's often hit and miss, esp. in the romantic zone), but he's GREAT at coming up with bad guys and it was so smart to build the 7th season to a demon/evil/big bad that hasn't been fully or even clearly shown yet. It makes it exciting. The mayor was my personal favorite bad guy -- so funny and yet so horrifically immoral. There's something very spooky about the shapeshifter nature/aspect of this big bad! Anyway, I had come to not have any long-term expectations, despite my devotion to the show and this episode really got me excited about what might come next. BTW, I love reading your posts and this is my first one :)
Finally: An Episode Without Lame Comedy by The Smiths	Nov 20th, 2002 02:48:49 AM
This week's episode of BTVS was one of the best since season 3. The biggest reason: NO LAME COMEDY.
Slayers dying... by bjfisher75	Nov 20th, 2002 03:15:50 AM
Maybe this has already been addressed somewhere else before, but so far we've seen 3 slayers killed this season as of last night (or at least we're all assuming that they are slayers). So where are all the new slayers taking their place. I mean didn't Kendra take Buffy's place when she bit the dust first season. And we know it's been made clear that when Buffy died the second time that a slayer wouldn't be created again. Did maybe she break the mystic link or is there some bigger picture thing we're missing? If not, I'm going to be pissed if they don't explain where all these other new slayers are hiding out.
Hamlet's Question by Maki Maus	Nov 20th, 2002 04:13:37 AM
Duck. Fast. We already know the man has instincts and moves he doesn't just trot out for the regular horde.
They weren't Slayers... by Toonimator	Nov 20th, 2002 04:17:34 AM
...they were Slayers-in-training. Like Kendra, before Buffy died. Like Faith, before Kendra died. Buffy wasn't like other Slayers, the Council didn't get to her early to start her training. She had to learn on the job. They seek out the ones "marked" for Slayerdom and start training for the day they're Called. So, had Faith died awhile ago, Turkey Girl might've been called, or Lola Fray, or this London gal. Only after they're Called will their death Call another. // Big Bad Morphy masquerading as Giles? Unless "Ripper", which I think is still on the table, not cancelled, takes place in the past or what, Giles'll live. But man...nice ending!! For the record, I like the turn Spike's taking. I liked that he finally SAID stuff about his soul and what he was feeling and why he got it. I liked that no mention of Angel was made, but you could feel it in Spike's desperation in explaining why he got the soul and his feelings for Buffy, he thought that since Angel had a soul and Buffy could love him, the only way he could truly prove his loyalty, love, and desire to be a better man was to get his soul back. The season's picking up! But dear God, dump those UPN promos! Makes it look like a sitcom.
We are talking about a fantasy here, aren't we? by Maki Maus	Nov 20th, 2002 04:32:42 AM
In real life, yes, Buffy would have every "right" to be depressed. But in real life, Buffy would also still be 21, and still acting like a 15-year-old who's never had "no" said to her in her life. Over the course of the series, because she had Giles and her other 'friends' to abuse, ditch, lie to, brush off, and take for granted, through the end of the fourth year she still hadn't even begun to make the transition to adulthood, despite the fact that she'd "proven" herself mature by aardvarking with a dead guy. I bailed on Season Six for two good reasons: 1) By episode 12, both of my favorite characters, and the only breaths of rational, non-egotistical thought on the entire show, were completely gone or reduced to mere occasional walk-on status while the others continued to wallow in their by now offensive degree of irresponsibility. 2) Having been a fangirl for over 30 years, there's nothing that gives me the stone-cold creeps worse than rabid fanboys. And to glorify them, let alone present them as somehow appealing or sympathetic, was as far as I'm concerned an insult to the show. Personally, I'm very happy with the way this season is folding out. As Joss said, it's back to the basics. People deal in real life with setbacks, tragedies, situations that, from the outside perspective, seem insoluble and insurmountable, but they either deal, or they don't. Buffy's supposed to be the hero. Everyone gets depressed, but not everyone feels that it's someone else's lookout to make allowances for a tough life. Not to be too callous about it, but she wasn't just "told" she was different, she already knew that, but regardless of that knowledge put off the whole disagreeable task of growing up to meet the challenge until "daddy" got disgusted and took off. It's no wonder she and Willow and Xander got along so famously, and still do ... their combined mutual weakness is denial (Dawn's leaning that way too ... think it's in the water, or just Southern California conceit?), and they're only now beginning to realize that that doesn't work all that well. So barring a couple of episodes in Season Six, for me the "history" of Buffy runs Season 1 through 5, and then 7. Daring musical episode notwithstanding, last season was pretty much a bust for me. But then, that's just an opinion, and all the screeching in the world doesn't turn an opinion ... anyone's opinion ... into a fact.
"The biggest reason: NO LAME COMEDY." by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 20th, 2002 05:30:31 AM
What about that stupid: "One Bite stand" comment. That was so bad, it can only be catagorized as Casper Van Diemian.
Solid, but not great (aka Spike Speaks!) by RogueScribner	Nov 20th, 2002 05:40:58 AM
The greatness is yet to come. - - - Random thoughts: Xander and Anya so belong together. I hope they repair their relationship sooner rather than later. - - - Since when did Sunnydale become so populated? I live in a relatively nice sized city and I hardly ever see that many people out! - - - So . . . Evil Morphy Buffy tells Spike to feed and he does? He's more susceptible than I thought! When Evil Morphy Spike speaks, I get it. Who wouldn't listen to themselves? :) - - - So the chip works for Spike when he's conscious of his actions, but when he "sleeps" it's a non-issue? Either Spike's chip works off of brainwaves (conscious intent to harm) or Morphy found a way to bypass. Either way it seems if Spike really wanted to disregard the chip, he could. - - - The end fight was the coolest one they've had in a while. Dust! Dust! DUST! - - - GILES!!! Up until now I've been proclaiming that he survives. But that was before I saw the episode. WTF? GILES! I freeze-framed the hell out of that last shot. 1) I don't see how Giles could have survived that. 2) Really, how can Giles still be alive? 3) I got a good look at the robed figure's face. He doesn't look human. He's got like old and wrinkly skin that just hangs off him. One of his eyes was obscured, but I could see the left (sinister) one clearly. There was some sort of red pattern (a tatoo?) over his eye. I don't think this dude is CoW affiliated. He belongs to someone else. 4) GILES!!! - - - To wrap up: I liked this episode. It wasn't knock-you-over-the-head good, but it was pretty solid. "Conversations with Dead People" set up the threat to the Scoobies, "Sleeper" set up the threat to Spike (and poor Giles). We should be getting some pay off soon. Can't wait. L8r
Xander, Anya, and Giles by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 20th, 2002 06:02:09 AM
I completely agree that Xander and Anya belong together, him leaving her at the altar was a storyline that I just didn't buy. The guy is from Sunnydale, you'd think he'd be familiar with those kind of demony situations. I'm hoping they're back together by the end of the season. Besides, where else does a tubby bitch like that hope to snag such a great girl/vengence demon? Anya = Hot. "Since when did Sunnydale become so populated? I live in a relatively nice sized city and I hardly ever see that many people out!" Maybe you should leave your room for once. HAHAHAHA. Sorry, but you left that one wide open. Its really more your fault than mine. Seriously, I think the real question is: "what are all those dumbasses doing out after dark, haven't they noticed the Vampires yet? Or the giant Worm demons? Or the Zombies? Or the Werewolves? Or Anything?" Dumbasses, they deserve to be eaten. When Spike was asking around about the girl, I kept waiting for the bartendar to go: "Hey... Aren't you that guy that kept attacking this place a couple of years ago?" And was that the Bronze Buffy was outside of talking to the bouncer? If it was, what the hell happened to the Bronze, and secondly wouldn't the bouncer recognize her since she's been there almost every single fucking night of her life for the past seven years? And on another note, doesn't she feel incredibly lame to be going to the same club as her 15 year old sister? "I don't see how Giles could have survived that." Creative editing. "There was some sort of red pattern (a tatoo?) over his eye." Chakotay? NOOOOO!
my thoughts by ZeroC	Nov 20th, 2002 06:29:09 AM
Pretty good ep, however, after Coversations with Dead People, which i thought was great, this was kind of a let down. I can see why Herc gave it only 3 stars. I really enjoy the Spike-centric eps, but unfortunately, after just viewing Fool for Love (a masterpiece ep) again yesterday on FX, this one just doesn't live up. The high point for me would definitely have to be the shocker ending, which elicited a collective gasp from my friends and I. If Giles is dead then I will truly be pissed, and will proceed to watch the rest of the season in utter sulking-mode. I mean, first Jonathan bites it (at the hands of Andrew no less!) last ep, and now Giles? Who's next, Buffy? Oh wait, they already did that twice. Anyways, all I know is that this season has definitely continued to impress, although personally so far I enjoyed the hugely underrated 6th season more. Hopefully Team Whedon's explanation on how the whole Big Bad/"From beneath you it devours"/Cloaked PreSlayer-killers/Pentagram on the Hellmouth things connect together will be creative, effective, and satisfying. I still don't believe it's the First Evil, and until I see hard proof on the show, refuse to think otherwise. Can't wait till next week!
Buffy and Angel facts and theories//// by Synn	Nov 20th, 2002 06:54:19 AM
Just to put the question to rest: I spoke a bit with some folks involved with the two shows at a convention this past weekend. They confirmed that the apocalypse on Angel and the apocalypse on Buffy have nothing to do with each other. (Although I find it kind of amusing that with all of their research, Willow doesn't notice an apocalypse coming in L.A. and neither Wes or the folks at Wolfram and Hart seem to notice an apocalypse coming in Sunnydale.) This season of Buffy has been great. Has anyone else noticed that this is the first season where we, the audience, are as much in the dark, as to what the hell is going on, as the characters in the show are? Usually we are quickly made aware of the big bad and it's plans. As for the Beast on Angel, I think it has less to do with Connor and more to do with Darla's somewhat redemption through her self-sacrifice for the child. The Beast could actually be the driven out demon part of Darla. If you remember, when Darla was pregnant, she was also able to throw Angel around like a rag doll. Just a thought....
Merc.. by Funkaboo	Nov 20th, 2002 07:37:46 AM
I was just kidding about Willow/Buffy going to hell for suggesting to kill Anya. ** For those saying there was no comedy in last night's epi...what about Anya realizing that Spike was turning her down even though she wasn't really coming on to him to begin with? Or Xander's comment after Anya threatens to bite his ass if vamped by Spike..."Wouldn't be the first time."? Just two scenes that had me literally laugh out loud. Or at least chuckle. Can't wait for next Tuesday. ** About hiatus...wouldn't it be great if shows just went on hiatus the week of Thanksgiving and Christmas and that's it? I don't know about you guys, but when I go out of town I make sure to have access to my shows and tape them while I'm gone for good measure. Do we really need a break for over a month for Angel? Unfair. Then again, I see how they have to space everything out for sweeps. To have the good stuff air in Nov, Feb and May. I heard there's another sweeps month but for the life of me I can't figure out which it is. Anyone?
Spike is the best part of the show (after Buffy) by LivingTribunal	Nov 20th, 2002 08:22:52 AM
Buffy is hot. Silveragent is a bitter Xander fan who resents that Spike gets the important storyline. Silveragent fails to understand that Xander is a fat moron. They don't give important storylines to fat morons.
Spike MEANT to get his soul back?!? by sabrefox	Nov 20th, 2002 08:38:18 AM
My impression of last season's finale was that Spike was surprised when he received his soul from the mysterious beasty. Now in last night's ep, he is declaring that he got his soul restored for Buffy. Did this confuse anyone else? Maybe I just assumed he was attempting to rid himself of the chip in his head, but I thought there was dialog to support that assumtion. Can anyone set me straight on this? Is Spike lying to Buffy about intentionally getting his soul back to cover the fact that he was actually trying to get rid of the chip?
by LivingTribunal	Nov 20th, 2002 08:42:48 AM
Buffy is hot. Kristy Swanson? Are you kidding me? Spike meant to get his soul back. Dialogue in "Beneath You" indicates this. Also, the writers have stated in many interviews that Spike intended to get his soul.
Vladimir Kulich (AGAIN!) by GypsyTRobot	Nov 20th, 2002 09:51:39 AM
ChickenMonkey, I made the mistake of joking that the Beast was a bad rip-off of the Tim Curry Demon from Legend. The guy told me (paraphrasing here) no way we ripped off Legend, same historical roots, do some historical research before you start flaming. To whoever called me an idiot for calling Kulich a bitpart actor, I looked at his website and it doesn't look like he's got that many acting credits. Compared to say, oh, another large actor, Richard Kiel. Submitted for your comparison: www.vladimirkulich.com vs. www.richardkiel.com (turn down your volume to avoid cheesy James Bond music). Now I think Kulich is hot and I'm all for him doing lots 'n' lots of stuff in the future, WITHOUT demony makeup and without a shirt, either. New boyfriend for when Faith takes the slayer mantle, maybe . . .? He might be a little old for Faith but when have age differences ever stopped Whedon?
First Evil = Joss Whedon by GypsyTRobot	Nov 20th, 2002 09:54:18 AM
The extra Spike hanging around reminded me so much of pictures of Joss Whedon directing his actors. When Morphy winds through all its permutations in some final apocalyptic battle with Buffy, I fully expect the last manifestation to be the Whedonizer Himself.
okay... by Mithril	Nov 20th, 2002 10:45:42 AM
Sejin: I too think that Cordy does not fit romantically with Angel or Connor. I liked her with Groo, though. And yes, Wes is my main reason for watching the show now (well, apart from the kick-ass plot). *GypsyTRobot: Adric? Oh my god. Now there was an annoying pudding-basin head if I ever saw one... Annoyed me no end. MercMisfire: I don't think the Devil is a pure demon. Considering the show has shown us heaven and there's been talk of other gods (such as Osiris, Hecate and such) being true, the Christian gods and angels and stuff may also exist in some capacity. The Devil would thus fit into this system and not be just a pure demon. CookieGirl: I still don't think you can overlook the idea of Buffy being the BB. Morphy's manipulation (making Buffy want to kill people, e.g. Spike) and trying to get rid of her friends (e.g. Willow and Dawn) shows that Morphy is trying to bring Buffy down, probably to turn her into the BB. If she loses her safety net and commits enough evil acts, she may end up slipping to the dark side like Faith did. But she wouldn't have Angel or someone else there to pull her back. (This also makes me believe even more that Morphy is the First Evil, since this is exactly the same strategy it used on Angel: appear as people he knew to get him to kill Buffy, thus pushing him over the brink.) Steepdog: good call on the 1st and 2nd beasts! There may not be a connection between the two evils in Angel and Buffy, and the subject will probably not be brought up in the shows themselves, but I think they have a thematic parallel. **bjfisher: I think this has been explained already. They are not slayers, only slayers in waiting. Their deaths would only call others to take their places if they were already slayers.
William the wussy by GypsyTRobot	Nov 20th, 2002 10:58:45 AM
Well William has finally arrived. His straight-forward professions of continued love towards Buffy and inability to kill seemed really . . . wussy. I liked the anguished crazy Spike much better. Could Buffy love a wussy poet boy? + OTOH at least he finally punched Xander, even if he was possessed at the time. Huzzah!
why s6 really sucked and why Giles isnt dead by Forget_Byron	Nov 20th, 2002 11:03:34 AM
Yeah, I know, I'm riding the last train on this one, but I'm kind of tired of hearing "Waa, waah, Buffy s6 sucked." In a word, Duh. It was horrible. And the reason it was horrible wasn't because Buffy was down on herself or because she was with Spike (who is way more interesting now with his soul). It was because of two other elements. First, Giles was gone. He was the glue that held the group together. He explained the weird shit. Without him around last season, there wasn't any really weird shit, because no one else could explain it. Instead we had a completely misdirected attempt to provide villians who any other season would have been one-eppers. And a throw-away ep at that. I mean, how often did Jonathon and Warren appear before last season? Did they ever have any real bearing on the show? Of course not. At least in death, Jonathon had a more prominent role than he ever did in life. Of course, I think it says something that they killed him. This season there have been a number of moments that felt like Joss Whedon was saying "I'm sorry" to the fans for all the stupid shit last year. That, BTW, is the second reason the show sucked last year. No direction and no major villian, and an attempted pay-off with Dark Willow that started too late and rushed too quick. So, it would be suicide for ME to kill Giles when he's such a staple for the show and everyone knows it. In fact, its more likely we'll see Xander's demise, or Anya, or both, before Giles bites it. Besides, how many times has ME done a scene where it looks like a main character is about to die but doesn't? When they kill a character they don't leave any doubt. Take Tara, Jenny Calendar, Wesley (oh wait, he ... lived, though in reality he would have died), or Jonathon. No, we haven't seen the last of the old chap, mark my words. Besides, if Giles were to die, it would have been all over the TBs before the first ep aired. Tara's death was out there before Buffy died, when the show was still on the vengeful WB. And oh yeah, that reminds me. Can someone please tell me how to reach UPN execs so I can ask them to stop running promos that make BTVS eps look like Saved by the Bell?
Giles is Dead, Long Live Giles by 2	Nov 20th, 2002 12:46:53 PM
I'm sorry to say I think he bites it. That way the next time the Scoobies see him (which should be soon), he will actually be the Big Bad appearing as yet another dead person... Things will seem normal at first, we'll all be relieved he isn't dead... And then he will slowly manipulate them into some doom and gloom ending... So remember, when Giles returns, and you haven't seen him miraculously duck a speeding axe, that you can't trust him... (And maybe the show Ripper is a prequel?...)
IronFist... by Mithril	Nov 20th, 2002 01:16:42 PM
fascinating idea. Hmm... damn, that would be an interesting interpretation.
Just to put a new theory out there... by ebon	Nov 20th, 2002 01:25:58 PM
What has been there, waiting, watching, hungering in the shadows of every resident of Sunnydale from the very beginning, and would know our intrepid heroes as its mortal enemies? What has been the source of all this demonic power come to bear against the Slayer over the years? Where do the souls of the damned go when they've departed? And why was Buffy Summers ever called to this quaint little California town in the first place? "From beneath you, it devours". "Not it. Me." I posit this: the First and the last of the Big Bads will be what it always has been: the Hellmouth itself, taken form to walk the Earth. That... or I really need to sleep. Oh, and I'm also layin' odds that in Sunnydale's darkest hour, an army composed of every unjustly slain soul ever taken by the forces of darkness rides in to defend the world- with none other than the dear departed Jonathan mounted at its front. Every soul ever damned versus every life they ever took... well, neat thought, anyway.
Whistler by el oso	Nov 20th, 2002 01:42:52 PM
Just watched Becoming a couple of nights ago and a couple of things that Whistler said to Buffy reminded me of things that Holden Webster and Cassie said in Conversations. Whistler is concerned with keeping a balance between good and evil, and he also tells Buffy that everyone is alone until they die. Cassie tells Willow that she (Morphy) is tired of the whole "good vs. evil balancing the scales stuff" and Holden tells Buffy that everyone is alone until they die. Coincidences or not?
Why Morphy can't pretend to be Giles by Forget_Byron	Nov 20th, 2002 01:55:05 PM
If Giles comes back to Sunnydale via Morphy, we'll know right away its not Giles for one reason. It's a foregone conclusion that MORPHY CAN'T TOUCH PEOPLE. And what do you think will be the first reaction of the Scoobs when he arrives, especially Buffy? That's right, they'll hug. So unless that changes, we can be sure Giles is ok. Besides, it would be suicide for ME to kill off their most popular character (seriously, do you think anyone would have said, "man, those eps without [other BTVS character of your choice] just SUCKED"? Nope, didn't think so.
The Return of Numfar!!! by Daireen	Nov 20th, 2002 02:02:46 PM
GypsyTRobot: That would be AWESOME! Ooooo visions of Evil Joss dancing thru my head.. The only problem would be just the supreme hilarity of it all would kinda mar the grand apocalyptic whatever-the-heck at the end of the series. No way is it going to happen, but DAMN that would be something to see... The First Evil finally comes from beneath, and it's actually..... drumroll ...a cavern straight to Joss' brain.. tee hee... A particularly twisted "Normal Again".. I like. --- Dammit, everyone on Angel needs to go back to Pylea just so we get more Numfar Soul Train. ;)
to godrefla: by 93curr	Nov 20th, 2002 02:54:26 PM
Anya looked bad? Man, who the hell is your optometrist? 'Cause I'd get a new one, stat. Geez, this whole year she's been getting sexier with each episode (especially with the new hair, god I hated the Farrah look on her). Getting dumped at the altar really agrees with her. The scene where was trying to seduce Spike? Man, I almost forgot that Willow existed for a split second there. But I'm better now. And I can't believe that no one's siding with me on Willow unwittingly being the cause of all this, what with trying to use the Earth to destroy itself last year. The Earth has teeth, and it wants revenge. Mark my words, the end of last season was only the half-way mark of this chapter of the story.
This better not count as one of Head's 9 or 10 eps this season! by Drath	Nov 20th, 2002 03:00:11 PM
What a fucking cheat! I have no doubts Giles will survive somehow--anything else will demand death to Whedon, especially after Cordy/Connor--but I hope what has amounted to maybe five minutes of screen time over the last eight episodes doesn't count toward ASH's 9 or 10 episodes this season. If it does, then this totally sucks. Speaking of sucking, so Spike was hypnotized somehow and that's how he was killing? Was that old guy playing the music on the street supposed to be Morphy or was that a servant/gypsy/hypnotist who's been helping Morphy do all this? Or was that just conincidence? And does any of this have even a little bit to do with the Apocalypse happening over in LA right now? I know Angel and Buffy are on different networks--different networks who are having a childish hissy fit feud over this very porperty--but it's the End of Days! How many of those are being planned by higher cosmic evil powers all at the same time anyway? Sure evil is uncoordinated, but it's getting as crowded as the summer movie schedule(or TV on Sunday nights)!
Tune driving Spike crazy by Braider	Nov 20th, 2002 03:33:03 PM
You'll notice the other song we head a lot of - on stage at the Bronze - was called Pavlov's Bell. Funny how this was the background for a whole lot of action.... One wonders why Spike would be driven to kill in a Pavlovian manner by "Oh, don't deceive me," unless of course he's heard too many young women singing it for beginning voice lessons. That could drive anyone to kill.
morphy by Tbakj	Nov 20th, 2002 03:42:23 PM
First of all, it seems that the "Morphy" that everyone is talking about is the one that is controlling Spike and the one that got its name from the first episode. If that's the case, then it wouldn't take the form of Giles. What would be the point if the only one who can see it is Spike? If you ask me, the "Cassie" that appeared to Willow was Satan his-self (at least that's what I thought). Satan is always the one who appears in the guise of a friend in order to fool you. As for Dawn, there has been no evidence thus far that Morphy has that kind of magical power that was used in the Summer's house. P.S. I know I'm not the only one who cheered when Giles first walked into the room...
Fat Xander/Angel comments.......... by Synn	Nov 20th, 2002 03:59:55 PM
To all the comedians on this site, you know who you are: I've never met David B., but last weekend I ran into Nicholas Brendan. It was at a convention in Boston, but it outside, after the con, and on his own time. My girlfriend, her daughter and I ran into him totally by chance as he was sneaking off to get a coffee. He was very down to Earth, very friendly, and he hung around, shooting the sh*t with us like we were all old buds, and gladly put up with star-struck questions of my girlfriend's daughter. A genuine nice guy. Now, if you don't like a character in a show, pick on the character. If you don't think someones a good actor, comment on their acting ability. But to pick on them about stuff like their weight is just low and freaking ignorant. How many of you would be willing to put your image out there for public scrutiny on a weekly basis? Would we all be stunned by your beauty and perfection? For those of you who are over twenty, how many of you haven't put on a few pounds since 1997? How many of you have the nerve and confidence to leave behind the relative safety of the 9-5 world and attempt to follow a very unlikely dream of being a successful actor or artist or musician? So, yeah, maybe David and Nick weigh more now than they did in 1997. And maybe it makes you all feel better to make fun of them because of their weight. Maybe it bothers you that both David and Nick make more in a year than you'll probably make in your lifetime. Maybe it bothers you that they get to know famous people and travel wherever they like and you don't. Maybe it angers you that they have fan clubs, and, if they haven't already, they could easily have thousands of beautiful women at their beck and call, while you can't work up the nerve to ask out the chick at the McDonald's drive thru. Maybe getting to mock them makes up for the fact that while David gets to go to bed with a girl from Baywatch every night, you're at home, bitching about TV shows on-line, and probably trying to down-load pictures of Davids wife. Get some freakin lives, grow up, and stop being cruel to people who have never done a thing to you.
Synn by GypsyTRobot	Nov 20th, 2002 04:05:55 PM
The fat jokes are mostly just to be funny in a forum that is known for being extremely rude. Two additional theores: I think the jokes underly the fact that a lot of people don't care for the characters of Xander and/or Angel. Also it is strange to many that James Marsters and most of the women on ME shows look like they are starving themselves to death while a few other actors are free to have some actual body fat. Charisma Carpenter gets a pass because she's pregnant.
Why S6 didn't suck by GPL Racer	Nov 20th, 2002 04:05:57 PM
First, whether the writers realized it at the time or not, the Buffy/Spike ship was dramatically inevitable from sometime in season 2. The path it would take was roughed out in season 3 and engraved in stone sometime in season 4. There is no way it could be anything else but S/M (or D/S) because of the natures of both Buffy and Spike. It will likely (certainly if you believe the preseason spoilers) end in grand tragedy because Buffy seems to be unable to accept that she has a dark side, no matter how often she is told, and that she, much like Faith, gets off on pain, both giving and receiving. Second, I predict that we will eventually find out that most of the madness in S6 was caused by Morphy. Finally, the whole Willow magic as an addiction thing was supposed to be lame, I think. It was the wrong response to the problem and was always meant to be shown as the wrong response. Normally, the show treats authority figures rather badly, but season 6 was meant to show, IMHO, how poorly things go if there is no adult supervision at all, not that Giles behaved entirely like an adult when he left because he couldn't say no to Buffy. I think we will eventually find out that the major events in seasons 6 and 7 were planned as a two year story from the beginning.
Let the Slayer Slay! by Randy Giles	Nov 20th, 2002 04:26:47 PM
Buffy Is Likeable! I can
Buffy/Bouncer by Randy Giles	Nov 20th, 2002 04:37:28 PM
Buffy and the bouncer weren't outside of the Bronze. There was techno music playing wherever they were, not Aimee Mann's jam. They were at another of Sunnydale's slamming hot spots.
lots of stuff by raisingarizona	Nov 20th, 2002 04:47:56 PM
SABREFOX - from the buffy magazine:
The First Evil by Randy Giles	Nov 20th, 2002 04:56:59 PM
The First Evil is NOT the Big Bad for this season, and neither is Buffy. Mark my words. This is the classic Whedon fake-out. Quite frankly, it looks like it's going to turn into the Fake-Out-Of-The-Century.
Long Live Giles by 2	Nov 20th, 2002 05:35:25 PM
Believe me when I say I don't want Giles dead. My speculation is only based on what I've witnessed of "Morphy/TheBigBad." He appears only as dead people, and uses them to manipulate the living (Mom manipulates Dawn, Cassie manipulates Willow (well, tries), Flayed Warren manipulates Andrew, Buffy (yes, she's dead too) manipulates Spike, etc etc). Seems to me Giles would be the ultimate manipulator of the gang; they'd do whatever he told them to with little question...and plus, they wouldn't even know he was actually dead! Yes, if the untouchable factor is true, hugs all around would suffice to believe in uncanny ducking reactions, but to me that axe was dang close when we last cut to black. We'll just have to see how Giles returns to believe in hugs or not. ...Oh please let this not be true, as I want a Ripper show as much as I want Giles to be kicking heroic butt in these last how ever many episodes, but to me the BigBad=Death thing is pretty strong. "From Beneath You, It Devours" could mean the grave or Death itself.
Way to go Synn by Anyawatcher	Nov 20th, 2002 06:02:27 PM
the jokes are just dumb and do smell of jealousy. And Spike turning down Anya, he must be good to turn down that hottie.
godrefla, those are MY stirrups! by chickenmonkey	Nov 20th, 2002 06:18:20 PM
And since when do you get off saying I don't pay the rent? I have worked 13 hour shifts only to come home to see you passed out on the sofa reeking of Schlitz and Funyuns, greasy Xbox controller in one hand and the other down your pants. How many times have I hauled your unconscious carcass to bed, only to have you vomit on my talons? I have slaved over rotisserie for you, cleaned the unibrow sweat stains from your Official Richard Simmons Fan Club headband, AND paid for the last four months of your half of rent! You know, maybe YOU should move to the cold climes of Pittsburgh, my friend! Go live with that sexy grad student, ya damn breeder. I see how much I meant to you. And don't you dare take my stirrups with you. Get yer filthy paws off those assless chaps! Drop that other thing, too. I know where it's been. ****** Oh, and good episode. I enjoyed it immensely. Not as good as CwDP, but they can't all be shiny.
Remaining Off-Subject by chickenmonkey	Nov 20th, 2002 06:36:26 PM
But in response to raisingarizona's query re: Wacko Jacko, here is a link to a chronology of Michael Jackson's face -- with blathering yet witty commentary. Fun! www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Ja ckson.html
Lets get real... by qhammes	Nov 20th, 2002 07:12:35 PM
morphy has to be something like The devil not a demon, monster or anything else. Reasons... This is the last season. 1) Look at the ratings (109 out of 111?) 2) How expensive must this show be with FX, Whedon and SMG? Since this is the last season, Whedon isn't going to want to end it by defeating just another big bad so it has to be either a big twist (she is really just in a mental ward) or a real big big baddie which of course must be Satan. I mean she already fought a demon god (Glory) so its got to be bigger than that.
patriachal comment by sjanich	Nov 20th, 2002 07:43:40 PM
Giles once mentioned that his father and grandmother had been watchers.
"who calls the slayer" comment by sjanich	Nov 20th, 2002 07:44:37 PM
Slayers are called by The Power That Be.
another possible source of watchers... by sjanich	Nov 20th, 2002 07:49:20 PM
One possible source of watchers could be those young girls who were trained in case they were called as slayers. If they haven't been called by age 20 or so, they could be sent onto university for training in ancient languages, archeology, mythology, etc. and eventaully becomes watchers.
Psst... Hey godrefla... OVER HERE! by chickenmonkey	Nov 20th, 2002 08:29:23 PM
Huzzah and Kudos, my dear boy. I made the mistake of changing my piss-soaked pants halfway through your post, and then continuing to read. You are one funny dog. I tip my hat to you, old friend, and pause to admire a world which affords such a splendid luxury as these fine Talkbacks. You've put the wind at my heels, and a sparkle in my step. Thank you oh-so-muchly. ^=^ But if you want Mr. Pointy, you're gonna have to come and get 'im. (*)
The Big bad on Angel and Buffy... by cooper2000	Nov 20th, 2002 08:38:34 PM
are apparently the same or so says Wanda on Eonline.com. Damn, Giles better not be dead.
hey godrefla way to keep repeating yourself by Anyawatcher	Nov 20th, 2002 10:02:42 PM
lets see you have the fat jokes, put the person's email on google and cheers for relatives that stop by. got anything else? your posts are a bore.
Willow vs. Buffy/First Evil Fakeout by Randy Giles	Nov 21st, 2002 12:04:15 AM
As far as Willow goes, godrefla, you know what I'm saying. There are a LOT of botched spells on Willow's record. Also, she may have had success with a few big spells, but, in performing them, she would lose control of herself and go all huge-pupilish. I'm saying that Buffy is in control when it comes to her powers. Willow...not so much. Don't get me wrong, I love Willow, but I just wanted to make that point. Buffy deserves respect.-------Someone has said already, and wisely so, that the Scoobies have already figured out the FE. They already know it's out there. They know to be on their guard. It can't touch anyone, and it can only act by manipulating the dead. So, they ignore any ghosts that happen to pop up, lock Spike up at Chez Summers, and Buffy kicks extra ass on patrol in case FE tries to persuade another vamp to build an army. The FE is not a problem. The FE was lame way back in "Amends." The FE is not linked to the SIT situation. Whedon has bigger things in store for us. I say kick our asses, JW.
I fail to see what Xander being a nice guy... by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 21st, 2002 12:20:22 AM
has to do with him being a walking ham filled beanbag. Lots of people are fat and nice, like Santa Claus, for instance. Good one Godrefla, although I think Anyawatcher is ACTUALLY Nick Brendan and not his cousin and is making up the whole con meeting story to distract from his belly. Which gives me a never ending stream of giggles. Imagine if Nick Brendan's high style celebrity lifestyle was actually dominated by trying to slam talkbackers in meaningless chatrooms. "Damn it, those anonymous jerks out there are making fun of me again!" Oh, too funny. I need a glass of water, my sides hurt. Hey, has anyone else noticed the disturbing debate over on the Firefly talkback where Entilzah Proph is actually argueing in favor of Incest? Thats just insane. Read his posts, he strongly believes it. I've said "It takes all kinds before" but only when I find out that shows like Dark Angel actually have fans, but this adds new meaning to the phrase. Fucking crazy. You people never cease to amaze, crazy fuckers.
crossover and big bad by sjanich	Nov 21st, 2002 01:14:36 AM
After tonights episode all is clear. The show crossover big bad will be the Gerbil King. "From Beneath you it devours". "Starting with the butt, it will eat you". Herc needs to create a South Park talk back really bad.
I disagree with the First Evil knock by DomisInnerChild	Nov 21st, 2002 02:39:03 AM
Yes Adam was stiff, but what's wrong with Morphy? It basically gives any actor/actress on any given day a chance to play evil as the character. For all we know, the default form might end up being Mom. As for the latex horned guy. Are we even sure that's the big bad? What if that's just a minion. Maybe what's cooking in Cordy's oven is the big bad or maybe the dead actor firestorm summoned the big bad. I've enjoyed the past two episodes of both series (after what I felt was a very slow start for Buffy and an average start for Angel), hopefully both shows are kicking it into gear. Same goes for Firefly (yes, I was worried until the interogation scene).
"Sleeper" is my second favourite episode thus far this season. F by a goonie	Nov 21st, 2002 02:51:37 AM
"Sleeper" had great acting, beautiful drama, and some serious big Bad talk. Big Bad talk rules. Aimee Mann's exiting line and the final seconds of the episode were wonderful, as was just about every second Marsters and Gellar were onscreen together.
More thoughts on William by GypsyTRobot	Nov 21st, 2002 09:58:29 AM
Why would William automatically be in love with Buffy? Seems like Spike's love for/obsession with Buffy is vampire related. Now we have a sensitive poet soul from a previous era moving back into the vampire's body. I would think the archaic poet would be offended by Buffy's strength and assertiveness and frequency of pants-wearing, all of which were not good attributes as far as women were concerned back in the day. Also if I were William I would be wondering whatever happened to my sire Drusilla and should I stake her or write sonnets about her? + ChickenMonkey and Godrefla, I hope to see you soon on a very special Jerry Springer. You can double-bill with a certain someone touting the virtues of sister-love. I'll be on the next day promoting eugenics for everyone who's under 5'8" because "short people have no reason to live."
Spike by Fozzy_Bear	Nov 21st, 2002 10:40:02 AM
ok why does everyone assume spike went to get his soul on purpose. I seem to remeber him saying to the demon that he wanted to be what he was, to me that ment he wanted to be a big bad guy again. but it instead he was given his soul ( which he looked very shocked about to me anyway). i think he told buffy he did it for her to get back with her,cos u need to remeber people with souls can also be evil, just because he has his soul does not make him good. just getting ur soul back does not make you the way u were otherwise angel would be a drunk womaniser type. maby i'm just reading what i saw wrong. but it is what i think.
Spike by Fozzy_Bear	Nov 21st, 2002 10:42:01 AM
ok why does everyone assume spike went to get his soul on purpose. I seem to remeber him saying to the demon that he wanted to be what he was, to me that ment he wanted to be a big bad guy again. but it instead he was given his soul ( which he looked very shocked about to me anyway). i think he told buffy he did it for her to get back with her,cos u need to remeber people with souls can also be evil, just because he has his soul does not make him good. just getting ur soul back does not make you the way u were otherwise angel would be a drunk womaniser type. maby i'm just reading what i saw wrong. but it is what i think.
Yes, Spike went to get his soul by LivingTribunal	Nov 21st, 2002 12:05:04 PM
SPIKE SAID THAT HE WENT TO GET HIS SOUL. FOR BUFFY. THE FUCKING WRITERS HAVE SAID IN FIFTY FUCKING INTERVIEWS THAT SPIKE WENT TO GET HIS FUCKING SOUL. Does this finally clear things up? Fucking twats.
Do you morons even watch the show? by Rude_Kaiser	Nov 21st, 2002 01:20:04 PM
Fozzy Bear: Where the hell have you been all summer. Joss and other writers have said on numerous occassions that Spike went to get his soul. What he does with his soul is totally up for grabs though. Repeat after me. Spike went to get his soul! Sorry, he's a better man than Angel. Buffy knows this. That is why she can't bring herself to kill him. Godrefela: When does the Bronze ever have a line with hip people waiting outside the door? Or a cool bouncer? Do you have ADD. On a side note: it's so sad that Buffy goes to a club that her 16 year old sister attends. She should have been going to this new club all along. Silveragent: Xander looked spiffy in his suit. They should keep him in it. Baggy fat boy clothes don't suit him. Doesn't it look like Spike is gaining wait?
Where in the talkback order is THIS gonna end up? by 93curr	Nov 21st, 2002 04:03:44 PM
'Cause I have little faith that it's not gonna be buried somewhere in the middle. Oh well, here goes: 1. Why is everyone so convinced that if morphy pretends to be Giles, that that means that he's dead? I've seen no evidence that morphy can't pretend to be someone who's alive (like, oh say, for example, BUFFY!). 2. Actors' weight problems. Well, I haven't read too much online that crosses the line into anyone's personal lives (beyond what their publicists reveal, anyway), but maybe I'm just reading the wrong posts. Nicky Bendon had, as I understand it, serious health problems last year, resulting in the weight gain. They handled it on the show by showing nervousness about the upcoming nuptuals. Then he got healthy again and all was forgiven, no? No harm, no foul. Charisma's pregnant, and they're trying to deal with it with the evil horror that is the Connor/Cordy ship no one bought passage on.I didn;t want to see it, you didn't want to see it, Angel didn't want to see it. Geez, couldn't they have just blamed this on the shenanigans over at Wolfram + Hart? Makes me scared what will happen if Sarah Michelle gets pregnant. Or Michelle. Or Alyson. Yikes! But David Boranaz is a far more difficult matter to just write off. He was spposed to be under water without blood for three frickin' months! Remember how bad Spike looked after only a few days? And there's NOTHING that wardrobe and makeup and special effects could do to make him look gaunt? It's kind of hard not to notice Angel looking like someone who HASN'T just missed a couple of hundred meals or so.
Spike and his soul.... by warlock411	Nov 21st, 2002 09:53:44 PM
At the end of season 6 the writers left it open as to wether he went for a soul or not. This let them have it both ways so that over the summer they could decide which way to go with the story. ........... Also they had a beetle go up his nose during his trails, this covered them as to wether he still had his chip, either nothing happened or the beetle got the chip. ........ The writers just wanted to leave their options open.
to sejin and TV Casualty by Helena	Nov 22nd, 2002 08:40:05 AM
For sejin and TV casualty: the idea to finish Buffy-Spike relationship seems to me strange, to put it mildly. Can you suggest a good replacement for Spike? Not another Riley, plleeease! Spike and Buffy mirror each other. Both have a dark side, both are strong individuals. They deserve each other. Of course, it's a pity that Joss "defanged" Spike of his best asset - his humour. Nobody wants him to turn into a lame Angel doppelganger. But I still hope to find his best bon mots in the future eps.
gather who? by _trick	Nov 22nd, 2002 02:27:38 PM
Instead of arguing if Giles is dead (yeah, right), I've been wondering who the other watcher was referring to when he said "Gather them" to Giles? The obvious answer seems to be the SITs, but does that mean we'll be seeing an army of 16 year old slayer-wannabes led by Commander Giles to an end-of-the-world smackdown in Sunnydale? Is that how Faith comes back, part of some Slayer army? God, imagine the kick-butt girlfighting we'll have if that is the scenario!
gathering by Qwerty Uiop	Nov 22nd, 2002 02:53:29 PM
I read that Giles brings all the Slayers in training to Sunnydale and that one is a lesbian and she and willow hook up.
Giles def. not dead (not Morphy either) check it out by el oso	Nov 22nd, 2002 06:18:38 PM
http://www.eonline.com/Gossip/ Wanda/Archive2002/021122c.html -*-ASH states that, "Everything's going crazy. I think you can safely assume things are out of control. There is big trouble. Basically, I have to bring some people over from England who are at risk." Doesn't sound like our favorite stuffy Watcher is dead and/or Morphy. Ey!-*-So is he bring over more SiT? Is there going to be a big ol' Slayer jamboree in Sunnydale? With pillow fighting and nakedness? We can hope.
The Bronze Did Have A Bouncer by DomisInnerChild	Nov 22nd, 2002 11:52:03 PM
The second hour of the premier of Season 1. Remember Darla and a gang of vampires walking in slow motion towards the Bronze for the Harvest? There was a big bouncer hanging out front who became the first sacrifice. To be honest, I thought Buffy was at the Bronze too. But it easily could have been another club around where Spike hooked up with that girl earlier in the episode. I guess Sunnydale isn't a one nightclub town.
Season 7 thoughts and Analysis by Expert	Nov 23rd, 2002 06:17:29 AM
I have been checking out all of your post and some of you have some really intresting ideas. However there are a few that are out there, one being that Buffy is controling Spike. Buffy is not controling Spike, this is clearly indicated in "Sleepers", when she has no clue whether Spike is killing or not. Further more if Spike is being controlled by Buffy, why would he sire vampires to kill her? There is no reason because he's not under her control. People are looking for the big bad in the wrong area, and trying to pin it on one of the scoobs, because of what happened last season. I find it intresting that no one has mentioned Dawn, As the Key. In the conclusion of season six, Buffy sacrafices herself to close the hellmouth. When she's brought back to life the hellmouth may have reopened slightly. This years seasons twist may very well be one of the hero's(hint...hint)may have to give the ultimate sacrafice. Option number 2 is this, Buffy has to make a decission whether to stay in the sunnydale where she's the slayer, or return to the world where she's just a regular girl(And gets released from the mental institution.) Remember what the spirit told dawn "In the end she's not going to choose you", this qoute fits both my hypothesis. As for Spike and Buffy, you know she's going to tell him she loves him from the episode with Cassie. The real question is, does she tell him this before she kills him, before she dies(unlikely he's seen her die once before, and if she tells him she loves him and then dies, he would kill himself),does she have an emotional breakdown, or does she tell him this in the end, when the Big Bads defeated. I think we can rule out one, because if either one of them dies, the other is not going to make it. Buffy has experienced too much loss to survive loosing another man she loves. As for Spike there's no way he'd survive Buffy's death, he loved her before they had relations, and now he loves her even more. Also everyones forgetting one crucial figure that hasn't dropped into the equation yet......FAITH. I expect to see a reformed Faith willing and ready to help, and uneasily accepted. However if there was ever a slayer who treds on the darkside it's Faith. With evil going around messing with peoples heads, if Spike had a hard time, we could see another clash of the Slayers, with the emergence of homicidal Faith. Also as the evil rises expect to see Willow having more difficulties surpressing her dark powers. If any of my predictions spoil the season for you I'm sorry, but I'm usually right. I'll end on this note, for all the people who think this season is a poor excuse for a finale, just wait till Faith comes to town and the ruckus factor doubles.
Spike's chip, and his soul as well... by dalael35	Nov 23rd, 2002 07:09:43 AM
...Here's an idea: What if the pain Spike's been feeling is simple psychosomatic (I know I spelled that one wrong). Just suppose he feels the pain now because he EXPECTS to feel the pain. As worlock said, the beetle could have easily removed it. And GypsyTRobot; Did you see the season 5 crossover episodes of Buffy and Angel where Spike's origins were told? When Angel got his soul back, he didn't go back to the drunk womanizer he was before, so why should William go back to being a bad poet? They both REMEMBERED what they've done over the decades as vampires. I imagine such experiences tend to change a person.
Spike's chip, and his soul too... by dalael35	Nov 23rd, 2002 07:12:26 AM
...Here's an idea: What if the pain Spike's been feeling is simple psychosomatic (I know I spelled that one wrong). Just suppose he feels the pain now because he EXPECTS to feel the pain. As worlock said, the beetle could have easily removed it. And GypsyTRobot; Did you see the season 5 crossover episodes of Buffy and Angel where Spike's origins were told? When Angel got his soul back, he didn't go back to the drunk womanizer he was before, so why should William go back to being a bad poet? They both REMEMBERED what they've done over the decades as vampires. I imagine such experiences tend to change a person.
The Reason Season 6 sucked... by BJC0410	Nov 23rd, 2002 12:41:46 PM
To me the reason Season 6 sucked is that the nerds weren't properly used. They had the oppurtunity to use them in a fun manner and instead they overdid it with Warren killing tara and his girlfriend. Also Evil Willow wasn't built up. It lasted what 2 episodes??? i wanted at least 6 episodes of willow terror. PS... Was ANyone else EXTREMELY Dissapointed by Season 5's opener with Buffy VS Drac??? That should have been awesome and instead it sucked beyond belief!!!!
but by narky	Nov 23rd, 2002 12:49:17 PM
he could already hurt buffy with the chip. getting it out would't make a difference.... plus, he said to take him back to the way he was. so the chip and the soul or human were the only options. he couldnt have gotten extra powers or anything cause he never did..
to Expert Cassie on Spike and Buffy by sjanich	Nov 24th, 2002 02:32:54 AM
Cassie's comment was low on information comment. "Someday she will tell you..." could be that she loves/loved Spike (I doubt it), She Forgives him for past action (high likely hood), or something else.
bronze and bouncer by sjanich	Nov 24th, 2002 02:34:42 AM
The bronze doesn't need to have a bouncer every night, just perhaps Thursday through Saturday.
Yes, Spike is a far better "man" than Angel by LivingTribunal	Nov 24th, 2002 11:52:50 AM
A few points: Listen bitch, Spikes love for Buffy was not obsession. Obsession is a selfish fixation. Spike was ready to give his life for Buffy on a number of occasions. That would be a selfless act motivated by love. Did you watch Intervention fucker? Joss said in the season 5 dvd commentary that Spikes love for Buffy is real. It is not an obsession. You can't compare Souless Spike with Angel. You have to compare him with Angelus. Spike was a huge prick. He was evil. During season 6 he abused Buffy almost as much as she abused him. He tried to rape her. The rabid Spike fans do themselves a disservice when they don't acknoledge that he, for the most part, was a huge bastard. However, even at his worst, Spike was no where near as bad as Angelus. Angelus was fucking crazy. That guy was EVIL. And finally, Angel had redemption forced upon him. Spike sought out his soul. It should be pretty clear, even to all the dumb fuck Spike haters, who the better man is.
Yes, bitch I say by LivingTribunal	Nov 24th, 2002 09:52:08 PM
You stupid bitch. Fuck you. Spike sought out his soul. Angelus had his forced upon him. Spike is better than Angelus. SouledSpike is better than Angel. Remember Angel indirectly slaughtering all those nasty lawyers? I don't recall any Morphy manipulating him. The chip did not soften Spike up. It stopped him from hitting people. He could have found other ways to be a prick. And he did (yoko factor). Without his soul he was still an evil bastard. But his love for Buffy was real. Sick and twisted, but real.
Listen Merc, you stupid fucker by LivingTribunal	Nov 25th, 2002 09:15:27 AM
Spike sought out his soul. It doesn't matter if your peabrained brain can grasp that fact. Thats what happened. The characters have said it. The writers have said it. Spike went to get his soul of his own accord. He did not have it forced upon him. The chip did not compel him to get it. His love for Buffy, coupled with guilt over trying to rape her, led to his decision. HE WENT TO GET HIS SOUL. Got it fucker? How fucking stupid are you? You are comparing Morphy's manipulation with Darla's "hold" over Angel? You are a fucking moron. Morphy was conrolling Spike's mind. Darla pissed Angel off. There is a big difference there shithead. For the last time, Spikes' feelings for Buffy are not and never have been simple obsession. Read Joss' season five Dvd commentary. And no I did not say that Angels love for Buffy was not real. Read posts clearly before you reply.
Last! by chickenmonkey	Nov 25th, 2002 09:38:26 PM
Fuck last posters! Fuck us with Spike and Angel action figures -- battling it out for soul supremacy of the inner chambers of our "hellmouths!" Seriously guys, either kill each other or fuck each other. Just let the arguement go.

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