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LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS Special Preview Trailer

But...IS Austin one of te 40 markets the trailer is showing in?? by exit272	Mar 25th, 2002 04:00:14 PM
Been 3 months since I've seen the movie, so this is as good a time to go back as any. Is an Austin theatre getting it, and if so, which one?
Primero! by Gregzero	Mar 25th, 2002 04:00:38 PM

Whoa by Snugjam	Mar 25th, 2002 04:06:20 PM
Says it all really. Sounds amazing. Pity I won't be able to see it on the friday... Does this confirm that Narsil will be reforged in ROTK and given to Aragorn for Pellenor? Why all the shots of Arwen?
Online? by Darth Melkor	Mar 25th, 2002 04:09:29 PM
When will this trailer go online? Or will it at all? I like LOTR a lot but don't want to sit through it again to see this.
Jeebus by LeeScoresby	Mar 25th, 2002 04:11:33 PM
Great hornytoads, this sounds exciting. All the people who complained that the first film was just "one long chase scene" won't be able to make that complaint here....
Will the trailer be online after Friday? by jrdanaraj	Mar 25th, 2002 04:16:44 PM
Do you think there will be a quicktime version of the TTT trailer after this Friday?
Wow by AaronHayden	Mar 25th, 2002 04:21:54 PM
There were no talkbacks when I first came into this topic, but there are probably twenty now that I have read it twice. Thank you, Peter Jackson, for giving us this token of appetite-whetting delight to break up the slow march of a year.
Minas Morgul and Orthanc, right? by Kagero	Mar 25th, 2002 04:22:32 PM
at least that's what I believed "The Two Towers" to be. But I can see Jackson's point.
"Like a moving Frazetta...." by Smugbug	Mar 25th, 2002 04:28:48 PM
Damn, Harry. Y'know if you can compare just one scene with a Frazetta painting. I AM SO THERE. Well, I was going to be there, anyways....but the Frazetta thing is a definite hook!
Gandalf "Grayhaven" by Eryndur	Mar 25th, 2002 04:29:31 PM
This all sounds awesome. The shots from Helm's Deep look to be breathtaking. One note: Moriarty and Harry both quoted Saruman as calling Gandalf "Grayhaven". You're confusing the name with the Grey Havens, the elf port in western Middl-Earth. I of course haven't seen the TTT footage, but I'm 100% sure he actually says "Gandalf Greyhame", which is one of Gandalf's many, MANY names, and could easily be miscontrued as "Grayhaven".
Is it possible...? by Rafiennes	Mar 25th, 2002 04:35:56 PM
To get at least one review on this site that doesn't have some fantastical introduction like Gandalf appearing and touching somebodyy's naughties or having some sort of covert Black Ops kind of thing between the reviewer and, let's say, Warner Brothers. I mean, how bout, "Let's cut to the chase, here's the review..."
I'm having Geekgasms! by JacksonsBane	Mar 25th, 2002 04:41:06 PM
Just one thing, I hope that this is going to be as a flashback: "Happy shot of Aragorn and Arwen happily celebrating and preparing to kiss (it looks like)"
KUDOS on the Frazetta reference! by empyreal0	Mar 25th, 2002 04:45:06 PM

KUDOS on the Frazetta reference! by empyreal0	Mar 25th, 2002 04:45:53 PM
And we all know how much you love to chow on those Kudos bars, ya big softie.
Re: Elfkiller by JacksonsBane	Mar 25th, 2002 04:51:53 PM
Why don't you just crawl back into Lucas' butt, and rid us of your stupidity.
The trailer can be seen on Thursday in the UK by Gabriel8	Mar 25th, 2002 04:53:04 PM
Only at a certain cinema chain tho (think www.darkhorizons.com has more info) - still will go to see it asap on Thursday
What film(s) will trailer be attached to?@ by Alibi	Mar 25th, 2002 04:53:26 PM

Attn Trolls: Yeah, we've already heard the oscar gloating.. by minderbinder	Mar 25th, 2002 04:55:15 PM
Seriously, you guys have been trolling on this thing for months...and the WORST thing you can come up with about FotR is it "only" won four oscars? (I'm sure most filmmakers would be pissed about winning four oscars) That's the best you can do? Pathetic. So by your definition, only a couple movies a year escape being a "flop"?
So what movie is this in front of again? by waynehead	Mar 25th, 2002 04:56:20 PM
Well?
The trailer will be attached to Fellowship of course by wilko185	Mar 25th, 2002 04:56:30 PM
starting this Friday. Go see it, and don't leave before the credits roll....
If I were Gandalf, I'd turn Harry into something un-natural. by exPFCWintergreen	Mar 25th, 2002 04:57:50 PM
You know, just for kicks.___ Hey Elfkiller - if that is your real name - what's that you say? Your going to see a gay porn on Friday? Is that statuett of Harry in the top left-hand corner of your screen turning you on? I figured a guy like you would like LOTR, what with a gay knight starring in it and all. Mabye you're just overcompinsating for your - err, lets say - slightly unmanly ways?
THAT REVIEW WAS ABOUT AS LONG AS TOLKIEN'S BOOKS! Why does e by chuckrussel	Mar 25th, 2002 04:59:21 PM
yeah!
The Two Towers will roar out of the studio and into the theaters by WarDog	Mar 25th, 2002 05:07:18 PM
Coo, coo, Harry. Thanks for all the spoilage. I feel funny. What's that swelling down in my pants???
Arwen's role by ArPharazon	Mar 25th, 2002 05:11:57 PM
I'm betting Arwen will usurp the role of Halbarad and bring Aragorn the standard and Narsil reforged herself. Which means she'll walk the paths of the dead and be at the Pelennor Fields. The question is, does Arwen show up with these goodies before Helm's Deep or after. There are conflicting reports. One report puts Arwen at Helm's Deep. PJ, however, recently said ROTK will begin with the reforging of Narsil, which suggests Arwen doesn't meet up with Aragorn until the third movie. Unless Arwen doesn't give Narsil reforged to Aragorn. . . But if not Arwen, then who? PJ left Elrond's sons out of the FOTR, so it has to be Arwen. Certainly Elrond himself will not leave Rivendell? I'm betting Arwen probably will lead the rumored elf brigade -- which will replace JRRT's ranger brigade led by Halbarad and the sons of Elrond. But, I heard somewhere that a host of elves will fight at Helm's Deep. If true, then how can Arwen lead the elf host when Narsil has not yet been reforged? This is getting confusing. I'm sure all will be made clear in time. BTW, Elfkiller, you better watch what you say dude, especially your nasty little comments about Sir Ian. A jury in Florida recently entered a large verdict against someone for making defamatory and derrogatory comments about another person on the internet. They caught the bastard, who really messed up someone's life with his postings, by hiring an internet private investigator. Then, they filed an action against him for big bucks. So be careful, Elfboy. The nasty things you write could come back and bite you -- and if you're just a teenage turd, bite your parents -- in the ass.
elfkiller8 obviously has issues with his repressed homosexuality by Sepulchrave	Mar 25th, 2002 05:15:51 PM
Take the step, old boy, you'll feel much better afterwards.
and I thought... by AmonHen	Mar 25th, 2002 05:18:23 PM
the two towers were Minas Morgul & Minas Tirith
News on trailer in the U.K... by Addanc	Mar 25th, 2002 05:20:41 PM
Om 22nd March I sent this message to the questions page of www.warnervillage.co.uk: "I wondered if you could confirm that you will be receiving a new copy(s) of The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring sometime around 29th March that contains extra footage at the end of the film showing scenes from the second film in the trilogy, The Two Towers?" I got this reply this afternoon: "All performances of Lord of the Rings screened after the 28th March will also show the Two Towers Trailer. This will occur at all cinemas still currently showing performances. Regards Chris Timmins Customer Services" See you there on Good Friday?
Hey! Let's all waste our time posting numerous insults about by Psyclops	Mar 25th, 2002 05:24:03 PM
What the fuck is up with that? LOTR haters must have plenty of time on their hands to post three or four seperate negative comments on the same board using the same user ID. Dude, you don't like the movie... we get it already. Personally, I'd like to see FOTR one last time before it leaves theaters and check out this new footage (December can't get here fast enough), with any luck... 'The Two Towers' will be just a wonderful as the first chapter.
who needs LOTR when you have Muppets in Space this May. by Retrace	Mar 25th, 2002 05:24:32 PM
plus it has a boy band in it....what more could you greedy fools want.
trailer by Z of X	Mar 25th, 2002 05:32:01 PM
I would love to know exactly which theatres are going to run the trailer. That is to say, which of the major theatre companies will be smart enough to carry it. BTW, there is a link to nowhere on LOTR.net with a news blurb about this Fri. Maybe in a few minutes it will lead to some details. Ciao!
"I return to you now... at the turn of the tide." by Carson Dyle	Mar 25th, 2002 05:32:42 PM
Remember those words...
No Mr. Jackson, please! I cannot withstand another Thrashing! by nazismasher	Mar 25th, 2002 05:35:34 PM
Oh, Sweet Jesus! Not 24 hours have gone by since Oscar Night and we're starting all over again. Three years of relentless Lord of the Rings coolness and we've barely gotten over the first chapter . . .
Re: Gandalf "Grey Haven." by Carson Dyle	Mar 25th, 2002 05:37:34 PM
It's Greyhame.
Newbombo, imbecil, does this mean Lucas still licks the barnacle by nazismasher	Mar 25th, 2002 05:56:38 PM
Let's just weight the implications of your stupidity before we commit to certain lines of reasoning here or hey, I thought "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" was cool too but since the academy deemed fit to snub it into the ground too I guess it must be purile shit too, huh? Come back when you've stopped taking chode from Woody Allen and Ron Howard 'cause just maybe Peter Jackson got robbed of his due George Lucas style. Ah, I love troll bashing.
la sith by fladnaG	Mar 25th, 2002 05:57:34 PM
Where and at what time? I don't think you posted that info. If you did and I missed it then my bad. Cheers.
LA SITH!!!!!!!! by fladnaG	Mar 25th, 2002 05:59:52 PM
Hopefully you will see the subject header as my last post got buried somewhere. Where and at what time can this footage be seen? I don't think you posted that info. Cheers,
What the hell happened to the TB order by fladnaG	Mar 25th, 2002 06:10:13 PM
Dammit Harry. Oh well. Cheers.
LOTR-bashers and their pathetic arguements by europop	Mar 25th, 2002 06:18:31 PM
--- "You can always tell crappy visual effects because they hide them in darkness." --- This is what a LOTR basher said in the oscar thread, and it's been said by other bashers too. This is the lamest attempt at criticism I've ever seen. Imagine, if you will, a LOTR FX guy: "So what do we do about the effects in Moria? Do we make Moria into a place of light so that it doesn't seem like we're trying to hide the effects? Or do we spend extra time and money making the effects photorealistic, even though the setting is too dark to see anything in that much detail? Erm, Peter, why are you firing me?!!" --------- Also, you've got to love the "FOTR only got 4 technical awards proving it's a failure" drivel. LOL LOL LOL! How sad!! So I guess recent classics like The Shawshank Redemption or L.A. Confidential are crap too right? RIGHT? I hope LOTRs continued success causes all you bashers much pain and frustration over the coming years.
This isn't about the fans. by Uga	Mar 25th, 2002 06:21:49 PM
Come on - the trailer isn't about "making the fans happy." It's a business move to make sure the film hits $300 million domestic. I see nothing wrong with trying to get more money, but AICN should just call a spade a spade. Dust the brown off your noses.
We will coo? by euphonium	Mar 25th, 2002 06:26:25 PM
What is cooing? I've heard of it before but I don't think I know what it is. I don't think its a dirty word. BTW, I would have been happy with Jackson winning for director, it was a bit much to ask for movie (did we really think FOTR stood a chance, its a fantasy film). I'm glad Crowe didn't win, he's such a hack. There is still hope, though, there are two more films (which will probably be better) on the way! Question: do you think there's a chance for Wood and/or Austin to pick up nominations? I think maybe for ROTK.
MAN! Harry's recount of the trailer licked my pussy, it was by spideyman1218	Mar 25th, 2002 06:28:09 PM
He must have really really liked Blade 2 to write that review.
Uga - of course they're trying to make more money. by exPFCWintergreen	Mar 25th, 2002 06:33:55 PM
But who cares? People want to see it, so why the hell not? The shot an entire trilogy of movies at once. It was a big gamble, but they figured the potential gains from shooting all three at once was worth it. This 4 minute preview is just one example of those potential gains. BTW, 'Fellowship' is already at $297 million. It'll crack $300 million with or without this preview. The only thing this preview may do is help 'Fellowship' beat 'Harry Potter'. It needs about $17 million. Hopefully there are enought LOTR fans out there to topple that nerdy little four-eyes.
Ryalto: TTT by Eryndur	Mar 25th, 2002 06:36:05 PM
Ryalto, I'm pretty sure the TT are indeed Orthanc and Barad-Dur. I believe Tolkien himself said this at the end of FOTR, in the little blurb at the very end where he talks about the further adventures of the Fellowship in the upcoming Two Towers. These little blurbs (and the synopses in TTT & ROTK) are only contained in editions where the books are separated into 3 parts, obviously. Double-check me on that, but I'm almost positive I'm correct. I also remember Tolkien saying that the title was used because it represents the unholy alliance between Saruman and Sauron.
Chickens and prositutes 'Lay' . . . by Wydok	Mar 25th, 2002 06:43:46 PM
Everybody else lie. Harry said that he saw "Upon that last word we cut to Arwen laying in a black dress" and a "Close up of Arwen laying." Now, unless PJ took a LOT of liberties with this film, I doubt we will see Arwen gettin' it on, so to speak. Perhaps she was "lying in a black dress" instead.---------------------- ------------------------------ ----------------The grammar police have spoken.
Sounds good by InsideOutMan	Mar 25th, 2002 06:46:50 PM
I hope they dont have the gay ass music which was in the first one.
hey 'la_sith' by Skinny Bastard	Mar 25th, 2002 07:05:23 PM
I'LL BE THERE!!! I buy rental video for a multimedia retail chain (based out of Texas) and I'm flying to L.A. for the FOTR announce tomorrow!! And of course, I'm more than excited about it...
Anyone else have a hard time sneaking into theatres? by NotchJohnson	Mar 25th, 2002 07:06:34 PM
Hi gang, Notch Johnson here. I ASK YOU - Why all the fuss over paying again to see LOTR just to get a "Two Towers" trailer? I ask, how well patrolled is your local multiplex? Is it staffed by teens who barely know how to add one plus one, let alone ensure paid customers into each theatre? What's all the fuss? What comes out this week? "Panic Room"? "Clockstoppers" (ughhhh)....well, here's my little secret. You pay for a film like "Panic Room", you arrive about 40 minutes early, give or take. You wait for the next showing of LOTR....you walk in and sit down....you watch the trailer and "mark out," so to speak...then you walk out and amble around until "Panic Room" starts. It's called SNEAKING IN. But I can't call it stealing if you're sneaking in for a movie trailer. On the other hand, my local AMC theatres posted signs about "Ice Age" saying no refunds after the trailers begin. HONESTLY, HOW MANY OF YOU ARE PAYING FOR LOTR TO SEE THE TRAILER? I'm banking on 40%, and that even includes the die-hard LOTR fans. Notch out.
ryalto by hildebrand	Mar 25th, 2002 07:37:50 PM
Your comments regarding humans and hobbits is a blatent rip-off of Roger Ebert's review. Why not give credit to an idea. Or better yet, start to think of your own critque's of the film.
Clarification of "Towers" issue. by Carson Dyle	Mar 25th, 2002 08:01:58 PM
For the record, as far as the film is concerened, the title "The Two Towers" refers to Orthanc and Barad-dur.
one last hurrah! by Z of X	Mar 25th, 2002 08:05:37 PM
Who knows how long it will be until FOTR is in theatres again? Think back in time to when you first saw SW or ESB or ROTJ. I was still too young then to have much of a say in which movies I saw let alone how many times I saw them. If I'd known back then that it would be 2 decades before I could see those classics on the big screen again you'd better believe I'd have thrown the biggest tantrum in history. I'd have made sure that my cheap parents would've taken me on every day they wanted me to eat. So here we are with another classic SciFi/Fantasy movie that'll probably be absent from the screen for another 20 years. I know we've all seen it more than once, probably more than 5 times by now, but here we have an excuse to return and enjoy it one last time. Go for trailer, yes, but also go to say goodbye to a great movie that'll soon only exist for the majority of us on 35" tv screens. Imagine, children born this year won't know FOTR as a big screen movie for 20 years...freaky. Anyway, there's my 2 pieces o'eight. Ciao!
Another LOTR movie? by Brooklyn Bred	Mar 25th, 2002 08:13:17 PM
big whoop! Think I'll go see Blade again!
WHAT?!?! SURELY YOU JEST! by antmanx68	Mar 25th, 2002 08:55:28 PM
"Big Whoop....... I'll go see blade again". Sorry to say this out loud but Blade 2 LICKED, it licked HARD!!! the makeup was cool, and of course blade was cool, but the other characters were so paper thin and one dimensional that it made me sick. The whole movie lost all the appeal that the first one had. there was ABSOLUTELY NO CONFLICT between blade and the other vampires, whoever wrote that dialogue should be marooned on an island with man eating animals. Oh and i really loved the complete absence of continuity and it CGI was simply stellar!!! O wait i meant to say that it sucked! Not to mention that there were plot holes big enough for even harry to do cart-wheels through (pretty big). The bloodpack (excluding snowman) were the most untrained, unprepared bunch of losers who's only succes were shooting guns (which is cheap), wearing impractical uniforms, and being not interesting. Why couldnt Blade have just gotten in the way of them feeding on a human, and then have a little round robin with Lighthammer and snowman. It would have been way better than his conflicts with Reinhardt with interested me about as much as seeing del toro naked eating JELLO (not very much!) Here's a little math problem for ya. Bad writing+piss poor acting+Disregard for continuity+overuse of bad CGI+HOT (but emotionless) female supporter+monkey faced ron perlman+ Vampire team that might as well have been a bunch of Humans+An Obsene UNDERUSAGE of Donnie YEn (SNOWMAN, THE ONLY INTERESTING CHARACTER)+RETURN OF WHISTLER+COOL AS HELL REAPERS+ Vampires who can see in the dark but use flashlights(???)+Blade fighing that could not even touch the fights in the first film+CHUPA(who walked like he was so big that he couldnt put his arms down even though he's a pussy)+poorly placed humor+Two plot twists that no one cared about or even took notice of+All the other crap ______________________________ ____ =Blade 2 Good acting+Good Writing+good CGI+Good Humor+Tightly knit plot and characters who act like they are supposed to=LORD OF THE RINGS
Gay Gandolf holding hands with a young Latino warrior stud at th by FD Resurrected	Mar 25th, 2002 09:13:58 PM
Such marvelous audacity. Such wondrous expression of older man/young man love. Give Sir Ian McKellan Best Supporting Actor Oscar next year or in 2004. This brave and courageous gay knight of England is so defiant of puritanical and hypocritical socialization in America he deserve the allocade and awards not for his contribution to film and stage but also promote the humanitarian cause of love and compassion. Take that, LOTR-hating ultra-moralist God-fearing fanatics - including GOD HATES FAGS founder Rev. Fred Phelps and his homophobic cult followers and Utah Eagle Forum president Gayle Ruzicka and her homophobic moral zealot housewife members! Sir Ian McKellan - oh my goodness - just fucking RULE. Eager to see TTT trailer...
Clarification on the title by PoliMan4	Mar 25th, 2002 10:02:28 PM
Since it wasn't Tolkien that came up with the title "The Two Towers" (it was the publishers) it has never been clear as to what two towers it was refering to. There are many towers, after all. Orthanc: definitly one of the 2, it's the tower that is featured the most in the TTT book. Minas Tirith: not seen at all in the TTT book, so it isn't one of the two towers. The Black Gate: this gate to Mordor has two towers on either side of it. It could be that the title refers to them, though the gate plays a small role in TTT. Minas Morgul: has a small but significant role in TTT, so it could be one of the two towers. Cirith Ungol: seen from a distance by Sam and Frodo before Shelob, but they don't actually go there until ROTK. Barad Dur: not seen at all in TTT, but it is certainly the most important tower in the whole story, except for maybe Minas Tirith. First I thought it was Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, since they are involved separatly at the ends of the each side of the story in TTT, but then I reallized that Sam and Frodo don't even go to Cirith Ungol until ROTK. Then I thought Orthanc and Minas Morgul, but now I'm going with the movie's idea of Orthanc and Barad Dur. Those two are each representative of the two evil forces in the story: Saruman and Sauron. But whatever. To each his own. I'm working Friday night, so I gotta wait til Saturday to see the tralier. Sounds kick ass. Now all Harry needs to do is give us a link to the tralier in quicktime.
Blade 2 was not the oral feast Harry described.... by Retrace	Mar 25th, 2002 10:03:27 PM

Oscars - Who gives a rip by erichg	Mar 25th, 2002 10:07:41 PM
For starters, Fellowship is indeed a great movie . . . I had it as an honorable mention on my list of Best Films of 2001. The critics who complain that LOTR is narrative heavy and difficult to follow over the first half of the movie are correct. Christ, there is a ton of backstory. However, the film is also a loving adaption that ultimately contains the same problems as the source material. Frankly, it was a lucky break that the movie garnered so many Oscar nods. Firstly, the Academy doesn't like fantasy films. Secondly, the above-mentioned quirks found in the flick are enough to hold it back. Having said that: ultimately, who cares about this craziness? How often does the Academy acknowledge the best movies of the year anyway? Ah, NEVER!!!Memento or Ghost World are just as deserving as any other best picture. Think of it this way: the Academy Awards included a Best Animated category and Waking Life was not nominated. That speaks volumes. Lastly, Fellowship is the weakest book in the trilogy. Point blank. Peter Jackson managed to turn it into a grand epic anyway. Not a complete homerun, but it's as close as anyone will come. As is the case with the books, the next two movies will be head and shoulders better than the first. So, for people who put stock in the Oscars: be happy that Fellowship was nominated at all. The next installments are going to rock. Perhaps those big awards are on the way. For people who could care less about the Academy Awards: hey, Fellowship is just another good film passed over come ceremony time.
Blade 2 was not the oral feast Harry described.... by Retrace	Mar 25th, 2002 10:07:47 PM
how a guy can get his ass kicked for 10 minutes and not loose his shades is beyond me.
you might be on to something but.... by Retrace	Mar 25th, 2002 10:32:49 PM
kirsten and liv have the same manager and reportedly won't do full frontal nudity, however its reported that for the right amount of money - they will expose their bungholes.
How will the story be told? by filmnazi	Mar 25th, 2002 10:36:47 PM
I'm assuming that the two "books" will be told intertwined, however, I wonder if the whole Gandalf and the gang part will be shown completely before we even see Frodo and Sam. Having read TT, I have to say that Book II was much more interesting, however I think the first book will transfer to film better. Gollum has got to be one of the most compelling characters in contempiarary fiction.
WOO!!!! by missy_circy	Mar 25th, 2002 10:37:42 PM
Can't wait 'til friday! it's gonna be awesome! anyhoo.... I'd just like to say that i don't understand why so many people leave messages on here saying horribly negative things. If you all hate it so much, i'd think you'd have something better to do with yourself than talk about the thing you hate ALL THE TIME. Get a life, haters...
BrooklynBred = Brooklyn Boob. by filmnazi	Mar 25th, 2002 10:41:14 PM
Yankees Suck, and so does Blade.
Gee whiz by missy_circy	Mar 25th, 2002 10:46:29 PM
I'd also like to add that all of this homophobia infecting the message boards is truly, truly, disgusting. Wake up, folks, it's the 21st century.
SLAG OFF! by filmnazi	Mar 25th, 2002 10:52:04 PM
Thnk God, somebody called the PC Police... Slag Off!!!!!
WETA TO DO WARHAMMER 40K!!!!!!! by Jaqen H'ghar	Mar 25th, 2002 10:55:29 PM
I hope we can read a headline like that on this site in the next five years or so... I mean, battles do not come any more epic than 40K - in the far future there in only war. If I was into making physical and special effects, I think that would be the ultimate project. I wonder who owns the rights? Games Workshop? Saul Zaents (sp) ? Beacuse 40K is basically just a universe, like what STAR WARS has become, there is no particular story waiting to be told, though a few decent novels have been published. That means a good scriptwriter could basically go to town, telling just about any action/horror/military epeic he/she has a taste for. I'm sure it will happen - maybe I'll find out its already happening in some corner of the world, as I did with LOTR. Another cool project which a company like WETA should tackle is The Amtrack Wars. It's a pretty well-read sci-fi series in Oz, but I heard it's not as popular in the U.S. Does the name put you off? I guess its not the most patriotic, flag-waving piece, which I've heard is a pre-requisite for comercial success in America. Ah well. About the most important thing to come out of the Oscars was a couple jokes which got past the censors which I thought might offend the Hollywood Jew-huggers and their New York masters. Nathan Lane made a crack about the Weinstein Bros. being "the face of all evil" or something and then we had Whoopi's Frodo-anti-Semite call. Maybe Jews are losing their "we can dish it out but don't dare reciprocating or you'll never work here again" untouchability, which corresponds interestingly with the success of Denzel and Halle. (though Whoopi and Nathan are memebers of minorities, which may be relevant) I read that Harvey Weinstein wants to make a Jewish ghetto v. SS, so it may be short lived. Although the Jews-as-victims line has been pretty successful for organsisations like JINSA, PR-wise. So Harvey may not want to depart from the team line. Did you notice that in their cameo appearance, Owen Wilson called Ben Stiller an "elf", though Stiller was dressed as Gimli, a dwarf. Maybe calling a Ben "dwarf" would have made members of the audience uncomfortable.*** But the main thing is WETA should do the effects for Warhammer 40K the Movie. Cheers.
Tolkien on "The Two Towers" by jbum	Mar 25th, 2002 11:10:01 PM
Tolkien himself wasn't that consistent on the subject of which towers "The Two Towers" referred to were: In a letter to Rayner Unwin, 1953: "'The Two Towers' gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." In a later letter to Rayner Unwin, 1954: "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume." OK, I'm offically a geek now.
If, after reading this story, you are not excited about TTT, you by Jon Snow	Mar 25th, 2002 11:47:25 PM
Because you might be dead.
So, how much???? by Anglachel	Mar 25th, 2002 11:50:38 PM
I was just wondering if anyone would care to speculate on the amount of money that this new trailer will bring into the till for our boyz at New Line. It's kinda hard to tell, but for the last nine weekends it has been taking from seven to two million a pop. Would anyone care to venture a guess, for all you box office movie fucking geniuses? I'm hoping that it will give us enough of a boost to pass that little mother fucker with the broom, but it will probably be a long shot. So let the guessing begin. P.S. My Guess: It will be worth a boost of from 15 to 20 mil....here's hopin'
PJ hangs out with the fans.... by MrCere	Mar 26th, 2002 12:11:37 AM
Truely that is a delectable little tid-bit. Fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun! fun!. (Modeled after Ben Kingsly's acting in Sexy Beast.) Did you know PJ hangs out with fans? I was THERE. He and Rich Taylor (with his two Oscars) and Howard Shore and the whole damn gang came and hung out with us after Oscar night. I really like the "Back To The Future" trilogy, but did Michael J. Fox ever do THAT?
Harry ,you lucky bastard!!!!!!!!!!!! by floyd the barber	Mar 26th, 2002 12:26:50 AM
First episode 2 and now THIS!?!For a fan of "fantasy film" like myself this is like the golden age!You see I love them all.Star Wars,LOTR,Matrix,Spidey,Blade, X-men etc.This is an exciting time!This opinion seems to put me at odds with some talkbackers,I can't fathom why,is it some Highlander thing? Like "there can be only ONE? How boring.Hollywood seems like IT is finally courting us "fantasy" buffs.Lets not bitch,(to be sure what they are offering is nowhere near perfection,but we still need to give them encouragement(sp?) in the form of attendance.Hollywood will keep making what sells.More importantly they will keep trying to make it better to make it sell more.None of the films I mentioned before is "IT" Not yet.But damn I hope they keep going for the MONEY in fantasy.That will keep them trying..................and you AICN bastards will get to see it first.Again I say you are BASTARDS!Are you hiring?fuckers...........star wars.....bastards....two towers...COCKsuckers.....
Just out of curiousity by fladnaG	Mar 26th, 2002 01:11:00 AM
I'm curious as to the age and nationalities of people who visit this site. I almost always find the conversations interesting and I was just curious as to what people visit this site. If there are any Irish TBers out there let me know I'm going over there this summer and I got a few questions. I know this was kind of off topic but eh? oh well. Take it easy.
AFAIK it by Ioreth	Mar 26th, 2002 01:17:05 AM
but added footage between the original last scene (Sam/Frodo heading towards Mordor) and the credits/end credits - no trailer but a replacement of the LAST film reel for FOTR ...
Stop with the Foolish Narratives by Starbuck1975	Mar 26th, 2002 02:24:20 AM
Gandalf sitting on your chest eating chocolates...WTF...did he have his 20 something boy toy sitting on his lap and holding his hand like he did at the Oscars. Harry try as you may to place the laurels of cinematic achievement on the head of Peter Jackson as the end all be all of movie making, it seems that a lot of people don't agree with you. Given the exposure of the movie and the popularity and familiarity most people have with Tolkien, it is no big surprise that it made as much money as it did. Eye candy blockbusters tend to do that. But after the Oscars, LOTR will become a distant memory in the short attention spans of the movie going public, and Two Towers and ROTK will not make nearly as much as FOTR.
What are you still doing up Starbuck1975 by fladnaG	Mar 26th, 2002 02:36:30 AM
Don't you need your beauty sleep so you can get some good trolling in? or are you a dumbass like me who leaves a six page paper to sit there and fester until nine hours before its due? You know what, TTT and ROTK may not make as much as Fellowship but neither did ESB or ROTJ make as much as ANH. TPM made more but just because of the hype. I guaruntee AOTC won't make nearly as much.
Ah... another New Line sponsored "review" by Lord_Soth	Mar 26th, 2002 02:48:27 AM
Seriously: who gives a fuck? This is just a damn trailer.
Bring Back Ron Howard..bring back Val Kilmer...bring back Warwic by MrLimey	Mar 26th, 2002 03:22:39 AM
Do you get a free supply coffee,coke and pro-plus to keep you awake through this 3 hour snoozathon?
We need more fantasy? by Billy Talent	Mar 26th, 2002 03:37:01 AM
Funny, I was under the impression that Hollywood produced almost nothing but juvenile, comic book style fare. I was worried the multiplexes would be glutted with bad sword and sorcery movies, and I feared this would be a bad thing. I was sorta hopin' there might be a couple of movies coming out with good acting and smart dialogue and that sort of thing. However I never realized the studios were so insensitive to the cravings of illiterate twelve year olds. You poor disenfranchised lot, give us a hug. Support Quality Film Making! See 'Lord of the Rings' for the seventy third time! Merry Christmas and God Bless Us Everyone!
Just a question for all of you...... by SLASH0723	Mar 26th, 2002 03:37:58 AM
Does anyone here know when the DVD for LOTR: FOTR is coming out? I know it is being announced on Tuesday, but the wait is killing me. PLEASE HELP!
to Grabage and Ryalto by Mithril	Mar 26th, 2002 03:54:17 AM
First of all, Ryalto: hah! PJ has himself stated time and time again that TTT will focus mostly on Sam, Frodo and Gollum as well as Faramir: three hobbits and one man. Not to mention of course Merry and Pippin's adventures and meeting the ents and stuff. Oh yeah, PJ is sooo "ignoring the hobbits" and focusing on the humans... Please! *Grabage: Elladan and Elrohir were in the first film (though they were not mentioned in the end credits). They are at the Council in Rivendell. You can see both of them (dark hair, very similar to Elrond, acting very "joined at the hip", sitting between Aragorn and Elrond, taking part in the argument) clear as day. So they may very well be the ones who bring the standard to Aragorn. We'll just have to wait and see. *Oh, and I really want to see Legolas go all "ginsu knives of death"! Woohoo! Double-bladed action, cool.
So Moriarty... by Yahweh69	Mar 26th, 2002 03:56:44 AM
Why don't you ban ELFKILLER? You seem to have a thing for banning people. He's abusive. He's rude. He comes here to make trouble. But NO... If I know your habits McWeeny, you'll ban my sorry ass and let Elfkiller run rampant on the Talkbacks. Talkback justice is misguided! All those who were unjustly banned, I call upon you to mutiny and throw captain McWeeny and his loyal crewmates overboard in a little tiny raft! WATCH all those who see this post! I will be gone in a matter of hours! I will be deleted! Moriarty is MAD with POWER! Don't challenge him, or he'll ban you too! It's all that repressed anger over being BANNED FROM THE RANCH that makes him toss people from Talkback without a care in the world! They don't call him "Moriarty" for nothing! He's the evil nemesis..! I will go down swinging! Hah! Yah! Whiff! Pow!
I can't wait - more CGI orcs by Starbuck1975	Mar 26th, 2002 03:59:16 AM
Oh the battle of Helm's Deep sounds so intense. Thousands of CGI orcs, with a few costumed actors in the foreground, filmed so dark you can hardly tell what is going on...camera shaking and panning so much, you can't even take in the few discernable details. Gratuitous CGI effects that must be cool because it has never been done before. PLEASE. Give me the battlefields of Braveheart. Real actors, no CGI, and filmed so you can actually get a feel for what is going on in the battle. WETA would impress me if they actually did something visually unique and ingenuous, like ILM twenty years ago. Instead they are just another ILM clone effects house, turning live action movies into CGI animated cartoons.
LOTR Pt. 2 Preview on KCBS 2 in LA by SonnyChiba	Mar 26th, 2002 06:23:26 AM
Just saw a tv spot for a preview scoop look at LOTR Two Towers, possibly the trailer? on KCBS Morning News program in Los Angeles. Check it out ... http://www.cbs2.com
TEST by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 26th, 2002 07:25:26 AM
Just seeing where this lands
Wooden Spoon Awards by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 26th, 2002 07:46:31 AM
Laydeez and Genitalmen, I hereby inaugurate: THE AICN GOLDEN TROLL AWARDS! (APPLAUSE) Okay, first category: MOST RELENTLESS WACKO. And the nominees are: Linda whatserface (psycho parent); ElfkillerXXX (closet turdburglar); ZombieHunter (crackpot theorist). Place yer votes. Next up, MOST PREDICTABLE DORK. Step forward MrLimey (one joke, Wokka! Wokka!); Pud (getting cramped in that closet?); elfkiller (what a star!). AND NOW, THE COVETED "TOP TROLL"; the nominees are : Mercier, Mercier and Mercier! WHIP-TASH! (I gotta get back to work).
Starbuck1975 - you'll get your wish, clueless one. by minderbinder	Mar 26th, 2002 09:07:08 AM
Actually, you WILL see thousands of extras at Helms Deep. They hired the new zealand army and put them in costume, supposedly five thousand extras for HD, twenty thousand total for the trilogy. Sure, you'll have a few CGI fighters behind the THOUSANDS OF REAL HUMANS, but hey what do you expect? As for the "all-cgi" battles? I think maybe you're getting confused with some other fantasy/scifi sequel.
Where in the UK? by Col._Nicholson	Mar 26th, 2002 09:11:05 AM
Is this going to be shown at all UK cinema chains still showing FOTR, or just some? I don't mind rewatching the film, but I have no wish to be disapointed if the bloody trailer doesn't appear at the end. Oh and I thought 'Gosford Park' deserved to win. 'twas way better than that 'Beautiful Mind' shite, and marginally better than FOTR.
Trailer in UK cinemas by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 26th, 2002 09:15:21 AM
Warner village are confirmed from Thursday, if you've got Odeon, UCI or an independent, best call.
One teaser to rule them all. by rabid_republican	Mar 26th, 2002 09:43:43 AM
That was a very detailed set up from Harry. My only regret is I'll have to wait until probably Saturday to see it. To say I'm looking forward to this is an understatement of massive proportions. Although I have not placed LOTR on as high plateau as others (nor has the Academy, it would seem...as I predicted) I still consider it masterpiece, more than worthy of what will be my third viewing.
EXCLUSIVE SNEAK< I HAVE SEEN A ROUGH CUT OF TT AND PETER JACKSON by Sabretooth1974	Mar 26th, 2002 09:45:25 AM
It starts off with Frodo and Sam lost behind enemy lines looking for Private Hobbit who's brothers were all killed in the battle of helm's Deep. Aragorn is questioning his sexuality after an afair with Legolas, that he was encouraged to have after some wring wraiths talked him into researching a conspiracy by the Dwarves to take over Lothlorien, but it turns out that he was just imagining the wraiths and they were never there at all. Peter also cut some racist remarks Aragorn made about Dwarves in order to make Aragorn more appealing to the little person demographic for best actor voting. Meanwhile Lurtz's long lost brother turns out to be a dirty cop on the Isengard city watch, who is trying to frame his new partner, an elf. Not his best acting job to date, but Orcs have had a hard time getting oscar nominations before, so he should get it as a pity gesture. Elrond reveals that he is gay and has aids, and has to sue to be kept on the high council, and to keep custody of his daughter, Galadriel will represent him as his cynical, jaded lawyer who learns to look at life in a more caring light by the end. The rest of it involves some quest for the meaning of life and a lot of pretentious art house B.S about the true value of self in a complex society.
OH.... HELL... YEAH!!! by Pallando Blue	Mar 26th, 2002 09:56:21 AM
Now THAT'S what I'm talkin 'bout! Hmmm... may have to come down with some kind of cold, skip work and catch a noon show... then again that night, when the hoi polloi shake their office shackles... Let em see the same look of dazed wonder they saw on my face last December.... HO HO HO YEAH! Tailenders, I'll get backatcha when there's a Tail End! Much to discuss! But not with the riff-raff that's currently stinkin up the joint. See ya! ...."like a moving Frazetta..." oh my dear lord in heavens to betsy and mergatroid....
Hobbit Walking Holidays in Ithilien! Book now! by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 26th, 2002 09:57:14 AM
Morgy - well, hello there! I've just about recovered from staying up till dawn to watch the Oscars and I've got to chime in with your remarks about the Frodo and Co. walking thing being boring. To me it's my favourite bit in my favourite of the books. I can kind of take or leave the battles - I love'em, but I love beleaguered Frodo and Sam/Gollum kvetching even more. And Faramir is cool. And played by "the most beautiful man in the world", no less. This is all so FUCKING COOL! Sorry... I was channelling Harry for a minute there. Well, day after tomorrow I get to see it, which is awesome. Question: with the PG rating and all, who thinks we're going to see a rain of severed, branded heads getting catapulted into Minas Tirith in ROTK? I mean, this is Peter Jackson we're talking about, after all. If he had to leave that bit out he'd probably have a coronary and die.
Whateva'! Oh and filmnazi fu with a rusty pipe! by Brooklyn Bred	Mar 26th, 2002 11:01:16 AM
LOTR sucked. It was long and boring. Okay I'll agree Blade must have Krazy glued his shades to his face for that last battle but regardless it was a helluva' lot more entertaining than watching those gay ass Hobbits in that weak ass flick!
LOTR is more cartoony then TPM by Starbuck1975	Mar 26th, 2002 11:17:21 AM
All I know is the opening scene to LOTR, with the battle on the slopes of MT. Doom, was so over CGI as to be rendered totally unrealistic and cartoony. The swarms of orcs charging the elf line, with two or three elves in the front bringing their halbierds to bear, followed by Sauron playing cricket with the rank and file of the alliance...all so over the top with eye candy that you couldn't tell what the hell was going on unless you already knew the back story that Jackson glossed over in favor of pretty special effects.
Teaser is playing in Sweden by sezzy_boy	Mar 26th, 2002 11:22:19 AM
I emailed SF and they confirmed that the teaser is playing from friday in swedish cinemas too.
Brooklyn Bred and Starbuck by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 26th, 2002 11:42:44 AM
Nicely done fellas, you've just illustrated side by side the two opposite poles of genre fans who didn't like LOTR. BB wants a shorter, flashier film with more guns and tits and blood, SB75 wants more depth, back story, character development, and for all I know a good old knees-up with Tom Bombadil. So this proves that PJ had to try and achieve a middle ground with opposite extremes of the attention span. Since this was never going to be a low budget indie flick, to be a success it had to coin in as much cash as possible. Let's not kid ourselves that mainstream films are made for any other reason. I'll stand by my previous remark, this and Harry Potter were the "event" flicks of 2001, the ones everyone went to see. Mission accomplished, and with the box office to match the widespread critical acclaim. Guess you boys just didn't fit the profile. It's okay, I was disappointed by Crouching Tiger.
Mind you by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 26th, 2002 11:46:48 AM
There's nothing wrong with guns and tits and blood, but you don't go to an Ingmar Bergman retro expecting Faster Pussycat.
The Truth Of A Nation by Cardiff Giant	Mar 26th, 2002 12:22:28 PM
I just wanted to be the 1,000,000th person to say: LOTR blows! Star Wars rules! This has truly been an honor.
Fools for delaying Shelob and Frodo's death for RotK! by Drath	Mar 26th, 2002 12:50:47 PM
The last battle of the Two Towers is Sam and Frodo against Shelob, ending with what should be one of the most powerful emotional moments in the series, when Frodo...well, "dies" by Shelob's poison. It's as powerful as Gandalf at Khazad-Dum, but they're putting in the Return of the King because "Frodo and Sam wouldn't have much to do in the last film otherwise." BULLSHIT! The drama of such a powerful scene is deflated at the BEGINNING of a film. That's like putting Han and Leia's farewell in Empire Strikes Back at the beginning of Return of the Jedi. You lose the momentum of the last several hours of storytelling. And there'd still be plenty for the Hobbits to do. There's still the escape from the tower, Mount Doom, and then there's the Scowering of the Shire--which PJ should go back and film(he says it was cut from the script) as it is the ultimate blow, the war comes home, the equivalent of British soldiers coming back from the war in Europe to find their homes bombed by the air raids. Nothing escaped the War of the Ring unchanged, everything was wounded and everything needs to heal. And to make up for leaving out what shouldn't have been taken out in the first place, they've removed one of the Two Towers's finest moments?! VETO! They showed so much intelligence when they moved Boromir's death into Fellowship instead of starting the Two Towers with it. That was smart thinking as his death at the end of the adventure was perfect, while his death at the beginning of another adventure is, well, off-putting(remember how bad it was when the survivors of Aliens are all killed at the beginning of Alien 3). So why are they messing up this ending/beginning?! They even make it work by having Galadriel(who wasn't in the book) say Frodo won't survive his quest! It's perfect foreshadowing, but it won't work if Frodo doesn't--well you'll see--at the end of the same film! DAMMIT!
I think the "two towers" could refer to by Drath	Mar 26th, 2002 01:06:28 PM
the two villains of the book, Saruman and Sauron, as they are the forces that the two groups of heroes are each working to defeat. Gandalf and company are going after Saruman in the tower of Orthanc, while Sam and Frodo are striving to reach Mount Doom to destroy the ring, thus defeating Sauron--whose tower is Minas Morgul. It's vague, it's not the best title(insert Attack of the Clones comment here), and it's probably the hardest narrative to adapt of the triology(the book has two halves, the fist dealing only with Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Pippin and Merry etc, and the second dealing only with Frodo and Sam, Gollum and their journey through Mordor). I still think moving Shelob to Return of the King is a bad call though.
elfboy by HIS_BIGNESS	Mar 26th, 2002 01:46:22 PM
AWRRIGHT!my lil elfkiller is back! c'mon baby let big strong daddy take care o you nice 'n good!
I'M STILL WAITING by europop	Mar 26th, 2002 02:00:30 PM
I see none of the bashers have tried to answer my last post, are they admitting defeat? I'll repeat it here and give them another chance: *************** --- "You can always tell crappy visual effects because they hide them in darkness." --- This is what a LOTR basher said in the oscar thread, and it's been said by other bashers too. This is the lamest attempt at criticism I've ever seen. Imagine, if you will, a LOTR FX guy: "So what do we do about the effects in Moria? Do we make Moria into a place of light so that it doesn't seem like we're trying to hide the effects? Or do we spend extra time and money making the effects photorealistic, even though the setting is too dark to see anything in that much detail? Erm, Peter, why are you firing me?!!" --------- Also, you've got to love the "FOTR only got 4 technical awards proving it's a failure" drivel. LOL LOL LOL! How sad!! So I guess recent classics like The Shawshank Redemption or L.A. Confidential are crap too right? RIGHT? I hope LOTRs continued success causes all you bashers much pain and frustration over the coming years.
"Two Towers" story structure by Carson Dyle	Mar 26th, 2002 03:02:08 PM
I think P. Jackson and company know what they're doing when it comes to adapting very difficult material to the screen. Structurally, "The Two Towers" is much more cinematic than "Fellowship" thanks to the more easily compressed time-frame (it should be reletively easy to intercut Frodo and Sam's journey with the battlefield adventures of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Theoden, etc. Climax-wise, "The Two Towers" will no doubt end with the death of Saruman and Wormtongue -- a major victory for our heroes -- but one undercut by the looming danger of Sam and Frodo being lead into a trap by Gollum.
Another Tower of Babble by sidneyreilly	Mar 26th, 2002 03:59:59 PM
To folks who enjoyed FOTR, it sounds like a montage of satisfying images that will have to do until the DVD's come out. I don't mind PJ tacking a trailer onto the end of the film after release. FOTR is still one of the best things out there. Worth at least a second look. Will AOTC kick FOTR's ass? I hope so. If there's a notch up from FOTR, I'd like to see it. Trouble is, a notch up these days means everything looks like THE MATRIX without the story. Thank goodness, FOTR has a story. One worth three movies. (What is it now, three battle stations in four movies?)
drath i so totally agree with you by eruve	Mar 26th, 2002 06:13:46 PM
grabage and ryalto too. the trailer has more WORRIED, not enthused. many of the folks here are fans of the first film and don't know the books but... god. do not cut sam and frodo for ARWEN scenes. oh no. in this whole trailer we get just one short itsy bitsy glimpse of frodo? oooh nooooooooooo. if he does that he will not only upset fans of the book, but the fans he's created in the first film. frodo was the heart of that film and is the heart of the book, you diminish that and you ruin it. i am more worried then i was before FOTR came out, and that's saying something. i'm more worried because he really showed the heart in that one. yes, sam/frodo/gollum are going to be more difficult but he's the one who took the damn project on. he has to come up with the solution that makes this work. drath i so agree with you about moving shelob and the effectiveness of boromir's death is good reason WHY one wouldn't want to move it in the film. ugh... maybe he fears its TOO MUCH of a cliff hanger???? maybe what he has on film is so powerful that people will riot because it ends w/o resolution? god i am so damn worried now
I guess I'm not cool at all. by Vegas	Mar 26th, 2002 06:37:38 PM
As I will be watching PANIC ROOM, DEATH TO SMOOCHY, and even THE ROOKIE before I pay 7.50 to see a movie I've already seen twice.
TTT trailer by lothloriendiva	Mar 26th, 2002 10:21:02 PM
omg...peeps please!LOL minas morgul and barad-dur are one and the same and the towers are orthanc and barad-dur,get it?the unholy alliance between the two???and all you fotr bashers...get over it....we rule this world!!!ya need to read more anyway so u may as well embrace the union of tolkienites!!! and to harry and mori....THANK YOU!!!!as i have been jonzin' to see this 4 minutes of footage terribly,and not to mention a chance to see fotr yet AGAIN,u have injected me w/ a heavy drug dose and yet i still crave more!harry ,my luv,plz plug pj's ear and ask him to include that 4 minutes of footage into one of the fotr dvds also:) so it will tide us addicts over til dec.18th....thanx for feeding my addiction,harry,tell ejw i send my love and gratitude...and harry??call me :)
correction for lothloriendiva by Psychopompous	Mar 26th, 2002 10:40:36 PM
Minas Morgul and Barad-Dur are not one and the same. Barad-Dur is the stronghold of Sauron, located within Mordor. Minas Morgul is the former Minas Ithil, the city inhabited by the Ringwraiths. As for the Two Towers issue, Tolkien did not name the book and himself says in one of his letters that it is open for interpretation. However, he does go on to say that it would most likely refer to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. Regardless, it isn't set in stone and so PJ is really welcome to do whatever he chooses in terms of interpreting the title..
the real spoiler by oblivi	Mar 27th, 2002 08:37:12 AM
i em a fan of LOTR trilogy and cant wait for the other movies.however im not mad that harry has posted what he has scene because the real spoiler is the actual toilken books and not the review.if everyone who hasnt read the books and has seen the movies is upset that there day to see the new footage is spoiled go read the books and find out what else happens.and for those of you that have seen the movies and havent read the books and cant wait for the next two movies go to your favorite book store and buy paper back versions of the TTT and ROTK those two books are the cost of ONE ticket to a movie here in NYC....so everyone who is chopping at the bit to find out what happens next to frodo and the boys do what people did before t.v. and movies and READ.....anyway a real spoiler would tell how the entire trilogy ends...............thats for you haters
It's gone quiet... by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 27th, 2002 09:29:25 AM
And I've just found out my Warner Village is still showing, but at 5.30 only, which means leaving burning tyre tracks on the M6 if I want to catch it after work. Maybe I'll leave it til Monday. oblivi - read books? What a revolutionary idea, but I think that natural selection has already damaged too many people's attention span. Or else they get all up themselves because the film isn't just like the pictures in their woodentop heads.
According to theonering.net...... by Praetor	Mar 27th, 2002 09:31:33 AM
There will be a TEN minute preview of the Two Towers on both DVD releases this year ( out Aug 6 and Nov 12 respectively ).
"The Definitely More Than One But Probably Less Than Eight Tower by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 27th, 2002 02:27:48 PM
I've never been able to get my towers straight. I've never been able to work out where Minas Morgul actually is to my satisfaction, but never mind. Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a da-a-ay away... Yay! I suppose this will be the last gasp before the hype machine shuts down till later this year. Sigh. Oh well, it's been a ride...
I hate to be such a bloody namedropper... by Pallando Blue	Mar 27th, 2002 06:41:26 PM
But, hell, I ain't used to this. I've been having a great back and forth with Costa Botes the past week, via e-mail. Unfreakingbeleivable. His reply to my first reply began, "Jeez, I don't write form letters!" So, having established that this was, indeed, the cowriter/director of Forgotten Silver and director/producer of the upcoming LOTR docos, I promptly changed my shorts >ahem< and began to pretend to be somewhat civilized and marginally intelligent (with moderate if inconsistent success if I do say so myself). It's been very frank, friendly, and casual, which in itself floors me. A great guy. Sorry, not a lot of inside dope to pass along, though. Or any, really. BUT, I thought I should tell y'all that, on SOMEone's suggestion, I "formally" sent a Congratulations to the whole LOTR group, on behalf of the AICN Tolkien Tailenders. ("Yay!") And then, being terribly bored this afternoon, also went into lengthy detail describing to our bizarrely formed, unique little cabal in the AICN wilderness. ("Oh, shit.") Didn't name names ("Whew!"), just laid out where we hang out and how the hell we happened ("Why?"). Hey, they oughta know where to find us! Right? Like I described us, we're a nomadic community, really, with no formal address. Changing from week to week, drifting with the News... Rings TBs our buffalo... AHEM. Anyway, wanted to tell y'all that, even though Harry probably doesn't even know we exist, A Very Important Someone On The Inside NOW DOES! ...Of course, I may just find that whole prospect embarrassing in the morning. :~)
I saw by Darth Melkor	Mar 27th, 2002 06:50:12 PM
The Helm's Deep shot looked awesome. A lot like the opening shot of the first film with the thousands of troops.
Where are the people who said... by LordDark	Mar 27th, 2002 07:05:02 PM
That Fellowship of the Ring was going to tank at the box office? Or those people who said it would only make just over 100 million in the North American Market? Stand up and be counted so we can take notice of you. Check out boxofficemjo.com. Fellowship has made a smack load. We're talking 800million so far world wide with more legs to come, especially after the added TT preview and DVD's come out.
Numenorean Mojo or Lack Thereof (SPOILERS AHOY!) by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 27th, 2002 07:36:48 PM
I'm with Bjarki on this one, guys. I don't believe that anyone is sending out any kind of mind trick, Jedi or otherwise. That's not to say that Gandy doesn't know where the two runts are (he's able to tell Aragorn and Co. that they've met up with someone when he runs into them). People do have dreams and premonitions - but I seem to remember that dreams and premonitions are handled by whichever Valar Gandalf serves (is that Manwe? The Silmarillion was a long time ago for me) (hence Frodo gets some nice dreams while in Mordor). So, in a very roundabout way, morGy could be right. On the other hand, personal power in LOTR tends to be centered around the notion of will, or having a powerful personality, and Aragorn certainly qualifies. His thought could send out ripples that affect others. But that wasn't what I picked up from reading the text, which admittedly was a good few months ago now. But ix-nay on any Jedi mind tricks in the movie, please. For the record, I think it was a smart move to jettison Gandalf's interference on the Amon Hen. Oh, and morGoth, do forgive me for misinterpreting you! There is a kind of division amongst some fans "More battles!", "More Ring angst and Sam!", "More battles!", "More Ring angst and Sam!" in a kind of a "Tastes great!" "More filling!" sort of a style.
Dagnabbit! by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 27th, 2002 07:42:09 PM
Missed the trailer during Teachers on Channel 4 cos I was making tea. Girlfriend not so keen on another viewing so will have to go alone, Billy No-mates style. By the way, if anyone fancies attacking the old chestnut of allegory in LOTR, go and respond to KerriBerri in the previous TB. *** I always figured those premonitions and visions were Eru keeping his hand in, since JRRT decided to keep divine intervention nicely subdued after Ainulindale. bjarki, you probably have a viewpoint on that.
Oh, and Pallando... by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 27th, 2002 07:45:23 PM
How cool are you? Wow... and did anyone see that thing about the SE DVD being R-rated? Just when I got my hopes all dashed - I definitely need to buy a DVD player.
blast! by hildebrand	Mar 27th, 2002 08:24:34 PM
Well, I am officially not in a good mood, LOTR wise, that is. The theatres in my area, which have kept LOTR on at least on screen in two different screens, are both rotating LOTR out of the line up, starting (wait for it) THIS FRIDAY!!! What dreadful luck. So, for those who get to go see the additional footage, enjoy. I am envious though.
R-rated by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 27th, 2002 08:36:02 PM
I assume that means 18 in region 2. There's a full write-up of disc contents on darkhorizons. Friends of mine have already admitted that the FOTR release will finally sway them into buying a DVD player. Sony oughta give New Line some backhanders.
I wuz sittin' here talkin' to Ol' Toby.... by Skyway Moaters	Mar 27th, 2002 10:09:18 PM
... and it occurred to me, whacked me in th' haid like a swift sunrise after a restless night, or if you prefer, the "light bulb came on" and the countenance of idiot realization shone upon my muddled pate: They pulled it off!! Hell, in many ways it's a triumph. Say what you will about details, it isn't perfect, what is? But I can't remember any film in a LONG time that took such highflying risks. And I'm not talking financially... I mean artistically and cinematically. And well.. the whole thing WAS an huge financial risk, but I think that only makes LOTR even more miraculous. LOTR has exceeded wildest expectations. I'm not exactly sure what triggered this revelation, could have been an Enya song on the radio, I just don't know. For a non Tolkienoid, this may seem an absurd thing to call a "REVELATION", but you have to understand how pessimistic I and I dare say many other people who were/are extensive readers of the dear professor
Awsome play by play Harry! by Skyway Moaters	Mar 27th, 2002 11:06:50 PM
... you had me cheering, laughing, grinning like a maniac. You missed your calling son, your descriptions are great here! Err, umm, did you write this?....Ha ha JUST KIDDING! No seriously, great read. {;-0
Holy crapola Pollando you nasssty oolld names dropperrrrssssss!! by Skyway Moaters	Mar 27th, 2002 11:26:35 PM
What Have ye done man ? Are ye Daft?! No I'm kidding again. it's really pretty damn' cool to comptemplate that people actually involved with the making of LOTR could possibly hear of such an obscure group as "The AICN Tail End Talkbackers" (who christened us thus anyway?). What a world the web has turned our planet into. Amazing. And if they hear of the "group" what's to prevent them from checking out these pages looking especially for signs of our existence instead of just taking in the general hubbub as they have in the past? (Duh.. NOTHING!) That's assuming that there indeed were any "bonifide" posts from people involved with the production, I have my doubts. Anyway... EGAD!!! Thats... STUPID! What a dumb idea, it'll never happen. (?) hmmm....
Life is sweet! by BG	Mar 27th, 2002 11:55:57 PM
This is so cool! Can't wait to see the new preview, and now the news about the DVD release has me happier than a very happy man who has something to be especially happy about! Pallando- well done! If you play your cards right you could weasel your way into the confidence of the LOTR inner circle! We (the tailenders) could finally fulfill our dream of having a man on the 'inside' (instead of just me pretending to be PJ). Keep us posted! MorGy- I agree with previous posters that visions and premonitions are pretty much par for the course in Middle Earth. Of course, It may just be Pippin's subconscious playing tricks on him ;-)
Third time lucky by wilko185	Mar 28th, 2002 06:07:16 AM
hree LOTR TBs on the front page, I guess this is going to be the tailend one, right? _____ Pallando, that is so damn cool, and you know it :). Keep us informed, though obviously don't press the guy for juicy gossip (too much). ______ Re Pippin's vision of Aragorn, I go with the "naturally"-occurring dreams and visions angle, though "natural" could easily be given a more directed, quasi-religious interpretation (eg it's fairly clear to me that Boromir/Faramir's prophetic dream "seek for the sword that was broken..." must have been "sent", by the Valar or Eru). I don't see it as an intentional act on Aragorn's part, but arising as a natural consequence of who he is and what he represents. Such visions and premonitions will surround him. It would lessen the story if he were directly aware of them, though, or if he knew that Pippin was aware of him, or was even alive for that matter. (Similarly, Gandalf is surprised at the Council when Frodo told him he had a dream showing Gandalf on Orthanc. Dreams, premonitions and visions have to be interpreted with great care, and their importance often only becomes clear with hindsight). ___ That is not the first time the hobbits see visions of the Dunedain: ________ "'Few now remember them,' Tom murmured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.' _ The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. Then the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world." _______ This vision was not sent by any particular person in Middle Earth, but it contains an external truth nonetheless.
bjarki, morGoth and everyone else... by Mithril	Mar 28th, 2002 07:38:54 AM
Just have to put my two words in. Well, actually more than two, but you get the point. I do think that the image in Pippin's head is just a symbol of his hope and his faith in Aragorn and his skills. However, both Gandalf and Aragorn certainly have the power to send that kind of sign to him, whether consciously (Gandalf) or unconsciously (Aragorn at this point). And bjarki, I don't think using people like Faramir as an example of "ordinary people" getting visions is that good. After all, Faramir was a student of Gandalf's and also possessed great mental powers due to his ancestry as well. He combined the forces of his father (who could know things about distant places and people even without the palantir he used - which by the way demands great power in itself) and the blood of Numenor and the old kings, so he really is quite powerful and could very well have the dreams and visions he has because of this. Of course, Faramir and Aragorn are mentioned in ROTK to be the closest anyone in their time comes to the old kings, so maybe their similarities run into their mental powers as well. ***Oh, and travelling 4 hours this saturday to see FOTR with the added footage. Woohoo! Will have to look out for Gil-galad this time, morGoth! Sixth time's the charm...
Damn, skipping work not an option! by Pallando Blue	Mar 28th, 2002 11:50:06 AM
Arrrgh, a sudden case of "the wink-nudge flu" has been ruled out by circumstances beyond my control. Now I have to wait until the evening show tomorrow night like the rest of the working world! How? HOW? ...And, I gotta say, twice last night I'm pretty sure I just... missed... seeing the TV-released clips. Heard something like "Rings" or "Towers" or "new footage" on the TV, came dashing back in from the kitchen, just to see the talking head saying "and that'll be in the theaters this Friday! Exciting stuff. Back to you, Nancy!" I swear, twice, in similar fashion. ARRRGH AGAIN! *** You know, I hope I didn't scare the poor man off. There we were talking Forgotten Silver, New Zealand reactions to the Oscars, Altman's crankiness, and then I go all Rabid Internet "We're Your Biggest Fanboys!" on him... Well, I don't think I came off like that. And they did all hang with the TORN party Sunday night, so fans are fun for em... I just wanted to get the Congrats off, on the Week Of, while it's still timely, ya know? But, yep, I did lay out just how to find us when the Tail Ends fall off the board. So watch your language! ;~D
Morgoth's query by ArPharazon	Mar 28th, 2002 02:52:13 PM
I think JRRT used "visions" to give the reader foreshadowing of upcoming or concurrent events in the book. I don't know if any entity has a hand in the "visions." For example, when Frodo told Gandalf he had a dream of Gandalf trapped on the pinnacle of Orthanc, Gandlaf looked quite surprised. Frodo had a similar foreshadowing dream of the Undying Lands in Bombadil's house. I'm sure there are other examples. It's fun to guess who put the vision in who's head, but I'm not sure even JRRT knew who, if anyone, was behind the visions. Personally, I like to think it is Gandalf subconsciously placing these visions. In other words, I Gandalf doesn't even know he's doing it. This would explain Gandalf's surprise at Frodo's dream. Gandalf can battle or perceive many things with his "thought", such as Frodo's near-miss on the Emyn Muil. Also, don't forget, Gandalf's true being, Oloron (whose ture nature and power is veiled even from Gandalf, his Avatar) was a Maia of Lorien, the master of dreams. JRRT even wrote Oloron often was invisible and prompted elves and men to good deeds with dreams and visions. So, Morgy, how do you like this answer: it's Gandalf, but Gandalf doesn't know he's doing it.
Two Towers Trailer by Wong	Mar 28th, 2002 03:59:00 PM
Hey, folks, the trailer for Two Towers will be at the end of the picture, not on the begining!
Gandalf left a Cleveland steamer on Harry's chest? by Det. John Kimble	Mar 28th, 2002 04:18:05 PM
Did I read that right?
DENIED!!! by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 28th, 2002 06:02:28 PM
Well, it didn't happen today, and what's more, the reel hadn't come in anywhere near me, so it may not be happening tomorrow. Goddammit! DENIED!
What the... by stumpeyjoe	Mar 28th, 2002 07:48:29 PM
Are the posts, from Morgoth and garbage, I read correct? No sons of Elrond in TTT, Arwen walking the paths of the dead?? An elf brigade??? I going to have a heart attack. I cannot bellieve that anyone else who calls themselves a Tolkien fan isn't recoiling from this. This in itself invalidates the principle of the fellowship made up of each race to strive against the dark powers. Why have a fellowship. Old Pete could have wrapped this up in one movie by having gandalf lead a Hobbit army to Gorgoroth and arm wrestle with Sauron for Middle Earth. What no cirith Ungol!!?? First there was no Bombadil to pull the hobbits and swords out of the barrow wights tomb. And then worse no Gil-Galad revealled in full glory to the ring bearer and wraiths . This substituted for Arwen?? just to grind into the populaces minds that there is a love interest bewteen she and Aragorn. And now I hear that there is no Cirith Ungol in The Two Towers!!!!?? This is to much. I ask you: Did Peter Jackson read the books?? Yes FOTR was entertaining visually but, as a fan of Tolkien's work, it doesn't compare to the book. What is next for The Two Towers, Bilbo finds true love as Eowyn discovers that Aragorn has been seeing some elf winch behind her back and realizes that the ring bearer is the one for her. She is also instrumental in helping Frodo find a secret tunnel that will lead them right to mount doom, thus bypassing Cirith Ungol altogether. And with the help of a small band of orphan children living forgotten close to mount doom, Frodo finds the help he needs to cast the ring away. Peter Jackson how could you.
Sounds great! by JMYoda	Mar 28th, 2002 08:26:41 PM
Of all three books 'The Two Towers'is my favorite (I always love second acts) But what is Arwen doing in TTT? She's not in the book. I hope it's just a cameo of some sort not a major change. Reading the books I always wished Aragorn would hook up with Eowyn who A) Has the hots for him and B) is way hotter then Arwen. I mean she takes on the Nazgul King! Man Nov won't get here fast enough! First the great AOTC score and now this! I think I'm gonna wet myself! :-D
stumpeyjoe by Buck Teeth Soh	Mar 28th, 2002 10:22:25 PM
If Peter Jackson had made a 100% faithful adaptation, it would have tanked. No modern audience would be able to swallow Tom Bombadil with his ring-a-ding-dillos, and no modern audience is going to accept a female romantic lead who spends 9 hours of cinema staying at home with her embroidery. Likewise, cutting excess characters is a necessary narrative technique if you're trying to reach a broad audience. There are two extremes of detractors; the ones who think its long, boring and slow, and the ones who think Jackson sold out and made an action movie. They can't both be right. When you compare Fellowship to equivalent adaptations from book to screen, its actually impressive how much Pete 'n' Fran managed to keep IN.
Giving Eowyn the brush off... by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 29th, 2002 07:01:24 AM
Someone else said it best (damned if I can remember who) when they said that Arwen's part had to be extended because otherwise regular moviegoing non-Tolkien-whores are going to be really pissed off when he blows out Eowyn for her. Cos Eowyn is pretty fucking cool. That said, I'm still a bit pissed off myself that she stole Frodo's thunder in the flight to the ford, but the rest of the movie goes some way towards mollifying me. Elanor, was it you talking about visions and dreams? Sorry, I've a memory like a sieve and it's quite annoying that you can't actually see the message you're replying to when you reply to it, but then I bitch about everything. In any case, I don't have a problem particularly with Arwen carrying the standard to Aragorn instead of her brothers, considering she sewed the damn thing herself. I wouldn't trust semi-magical banners to either of my brothers. It's pretty much standard movie character consolidation. I may possibly have a problem if this is extended much further than that, cos the books are pretty definite in what everybody does and some other character would have to lose out to enlarge her part. In any case, I agree it was a bummer to lose out on the barrow wight, but then it did mean there was no Tom Bombadil, and am I the only chick in the house that is 100% happy about that?
Not bashing but... by NoDecafPlz	Mar 29th, 2002 10:12:13 AM
LOTR came across as if five-star, quality movie trailers were sewn together. The analogy I give is a slide show with premium slides. I feel that with an epic, it is ok to have a narration throughout the whole movie. As proved in Dune, full movie narration helps people understand how scenes are bridged together when there is only so much time alloted. LOTR succeeded in the realm of beautiful cinematography, but failed in the catagory of seamless story transition. Joe
Hmmm... by Conan_the_Humble	Mar 29th, 2002 11:34:40 AM
Very interesting little tailend TB here. First things first however, I saw the preview/trailer today, (approx 8 hours ago) and loved it. I also saw the film for the 5th (and probably last) time at the Cinema's. I still think it's great, I, like possibly everyone -else have problems with it, but hey, you know the old saying, "you can't please everyone," blah blah blah. Harry, excellent ('Monty Burns' finger - waving inserted here, you know what I'm talking about!) review! I've been rather unimpressed with you since that Blade 2 Rubbish, however you have redeemed yourself in my eyes. MorGy, good question as per usual... I'd have to state if asked, that it was probably Gandalf. I read another TBer back a bit and I didn't mind his whole, Gandalf sending these messages unconsciously bit. That seemed to make some sense in my, admittedly inebriated (please don't mind my speeling et cetera) state. I'm also glad to see that downunder here, we are getting the Preview at the same time as everyone else. If we could only convince New line to release TTT at the same time everywhere, I'd be one happy chappy. Cheers
Two Towers Preview - holy shit!!!!!!! by Earendil	Mar 29th, 2002 01:59:36 PM
Harry, just seen it this afternoon at the Odeon in Leicester Square. Your commentary/review was spot on. This is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!! to all: YOU MUST SEE THIS ASAP!!!!!!!!!! TTT looks even better than FOTR and I would have sworn on my copy of the One Ring that this was NOT possible..... I only have one question....WHEN AND WHERE CAN WE DOWNLOAD IT?? :~) this is to PJ - THANKUTHANKUTHANKUTHANKU!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Earendil
misc. thoughts by hildebrand	Mar 29th, 2002 03:00:23 PM
First, to the poster who thought that Dune represented a faithful representation of the book: EEEEK! Sorry, but the movie version was so bad that my mother walked out of it. She loved the Dune books, did not go to many movies, but thought that she would go along with me when I decided to go see it. She is not the harumphy type, not at all. I did not know the books nearly as well, and about 15 mins. in she began to comment about chronology. Toward the end she said that she had quite enough of the nonsense and decided to read a book in the lobby until the movie was finished. I told her how it ended and she simply grimaced. Not good. ***For those who you who will see the added footage this weekend I am envious. Our local theatres both decided to pull LOTR this weekend. Yep, the day they get the new footage is the day they are gone. Such good timing. Bah, will need to drive at least 2.5 hours to see it now. *Old Man Willow and the Ents. I believe that Treebeard comments about the Old Forest when he talks to Merry and Pippin about their homelands. I cannot remember if they talk about Old Man Willow, but they did talk about Bombadil. Which, I agree with those about keeping him out of the film. There really is no way to keep him in the story and maintain the forward progression of a movie storyline. Plus, he is a bit, hmmm, how to say this - odd, wacky, off. Good in a book, not so in a movie. He and Goldberry would have come at about the first hour mark probably, would have zonked out quite a few folks, no matter how you did the Barrow Wights, as they are pretty late in that act. Tom would have sent the non-Tolkien fans sniggering to the popcorn stand wondering what the hell this guy had to do with the story.*Finally, the amalgamation of characters - it works just fine. Having Arwen stand in as the elves representative is a good thing, gives them someone in addition to Legolas. Also, it will help that she had been around the story when in the third movie she marries Aragorn. In the books, I always wondered why she does not have a bigger role then to wait around for Aragorn to save the world and then marry her in some drive-by scene. We may learn to agree with Legolas about her if she actually has some screen time. Not good to have a wedding in the third movie when one of the two getting married is an unknown. Plus, it certainly does not hurt to have another strong female character, as LOTR is not chock full of them. *Again, to those who get to see the additional footage. I am jealous. But have a great time anyway.
I Seed It! SPOILERS! by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 29th, 2002 03:51:54 PM
Yay! Go me! And it was... oh, it was... well, to take it to bits. For a start, it basically looks exactly like a continuation of the same movie you just watched. You would expect that of course, it being filmed at the same time, but it has the same exact sensibility and whatnot, and for some reason that really surprised me. Do not ask why, as it would seem to be common sense, but I was surprised. It was all a bit of a dreamy blur, but memorable bits - Theoden. He looks like he kicks ass. Eowyn, being cheeky and gorgeous. There was a fair bit of her. A bit of laughing swordplay with her and Aragorn, indoors somewhere, probably to establish that she can handle herself. Edoras looks great. Faramir also looked gorgeous. The standouts were Pippin and Treebeard (you see him basically sat in a tree, hugging it in a climbing type way, and then he notices that it has these big, soulful brown eyes and does a double-take. It's very cute.) The Ent eyes passed muster for me. Didn't see a mouth but they don't appear to have gone for a twee design. The battle of Helm's Deep (like the battle of the Last Alliance in the first 5 minutes of FOTR, which always blows me away) which looked awesome. Frodo complaining about the weight of the Ring and looking dusty and angsty. Cool! Arwen in various guises looking asleep or purposeful. Oh! And Gandy reappearing before the three of them! In a Saruman fashion stylee! He must have got the secret recipe for Saruman's conditioner whilst in shadow. But nice to see, though I preferred him when he was a bit tattier. Nice gleaming with holy light effect though. Saruman wittering on evilly to himself - nice shot of him looking over a railing at something that seemed to piss him off a bit. There was tons more - it was one of those moments that go on forever when you're it it, but appear to have lasted three seconds afterwards. Nitpicks: there are always some. Gollum, from the tiny bit I saw, seems to be only about 90% there - you are somewhat aware that he is not real. His voice seems to have changed a little to something a tad more natural though - I always worried a bit about his voice in FOTR because it seemed a little too electronically distorted. Wormtongue has a bit too much makeup on. As for the TB so far, Elanor appears to have ably covered the bases - I also think that first post was a spoof - and a damn good one, I must say! And now I'm spent. Oh, we wants it, we wants it, we wants it! Is Hobbitastic going to kick me in the nuts now? Tell him not to bother, I don't have any.
LOTR by Mark D	Mar 29th, 2002 04:24:49 PM
I think LOTR:FOTR Ruled, but Why couldnt they have put the preview for LOTR:TTT in the cinemas as an appetiser?
Just saw it in Austin and Harry was in the house with his girlfr by PORKY	Mar 29th, 2002 04:58:19 PM
Man, those two were going at it the whole time. Just Kidding! This was only my second viewing of LOTR and I have to say that it was even better this time. I know a lot of you have pointed this out before, but Legolas really is a badass in this movie. Ultra-Cool. Guess what? The TTT preview highlights his coolness even more than I had imagined. For that character alone, I can't wait for Christmas. Oh yeah, the rest of the preview was pretty kickin' too. Although, that treebeard stuff better be handled right or we can expect a Wizard of Oz type adaptation.
Saw it today. Wow wow wow by JacksonsBane	Mar 29th, 2002 05:36:28 PM
It was geektastic. Gandalf the White was the most memorable part. It all looks great. Roll on Christmas.
Just Saw It in Clifton.......... by spideyman1218	Mar 29th, 2002 06:40:07 PM
and I wet myself it was so good. There was definitely a new print, everything was totally clear and the sound was terrific!!
So when is New Line posting this preview on the net? by Mr.F.N.Sunshine	Mar 29th, 2002 07:39:44 PM
Because I went to see it today and the theatre I went to didn't add the TTT preview. The Bridge in Howard Hughes Center isn't cheap either. $7 for a matinee and $10 normally. Guess I should have called ahead and verified they were on the same sheet of music as New Line.
That's the BEST present in the world...Thanks PJ!!!!!!!!!!!! by samwise_gamgee	Mar 29th, 2002 08:47:37 PM
OMG!!!!!!! I JUST SAW THE TRAILER!!!!!!!!!! Yes, I do have to admit I went to go and see FotR for the 9th time JUST to see the trailer...It was SO worth it...That was sooooooo kewl...It was a bit odd how they ruined it by showing you that Gandalf lives...But thankfully I've read the books already, so I already knew =D The best part, I think, was at the end when they showed Gollum saying, "The nasssssssty hobbitsessss...." Or some variation of that, and then they show Frodo opening his eyes...That totally rocked...But WHY ONLY FOUR MINUTES??????!!!!!!!!???????? I'm okay, I'm okay...I just have to keep telling myself that it's only 265 more days....Only 265 more days....GRRRRR!!!!!! WHAT AM I KIDDING????? I CAN'T WAIT THAT LONG!!!!!!!!
Packed theater for FOTR week 15! by realfan-3	Mar 30th, 2002 12:56:38 AM
The 2 Towers trailer was uber cool. But not as cool as seeing a packed theater (albeit a smaller one) for this great film, in it's 15th week of release, on a Friday night!!! (Hoyts in Manasass VA, in case you were wondering) Kinda odd that a lot of northern VA theaters actually were playing Fellowship up until this weekend, and chose now to stop showing it, the very weekend that TTT preview was attached! Interesting... hopefully this will just mean that the per-screen average will be stellar, as opposed to having it make less money (PLEASE make more $ than Harry Potter... why do I care? I dunno, i just do!)
Just saw the trailer on IMAX screen. Here's what it felt li by Sierra	Mar 30th, 2002 04:43:50 AM
....screen fading to black....graphics announcing release date....silence, but for the beating of our expectant hearts....eyes wide in hopeful anticipation....hearts beating stronger now....bated breath.....hearts pounding....a gasp....eyes suddenly filled with images, powerful and heart-rending....ears filled with sound....voices....music sweet, forlorn....faces, familiar and new....filled with courage, strength, hope, despair....tears in our eyes....hearts in our throats....still not breathing....wishing it would go on forever....done all too soon....awestruck....finally exhaling....staring at the credits through blurry eyes....barely able to move...."May It Be an evening star shines down upon you"....calming down...."May It Be when darkness falls your heart will be true"....coming down to earth....to reality....yearning to go back again....back to Middle Earth....back to our beloved friends....just one more time....and one more....and one more.... -------------------------- DO NOT hesitate for one second....go see this trailer as soon as possible - and as many times as possible. You will not regret it! Peter Jackson, you wonderful man -I LOVE YOU!
Morgul Blades and Transparency by AliceInWonderlnd	Mar 30th, 2002 03:55:44 PM
Newsflash: I fucking love this movie. Okay, so maybe that isn't a newsflash. But Elanor's observations remind me that there was something new I noticed this time around. (The trailer coolness put it out of my mind). Anyway, Frodo is lying in bed, looking hollow-eyed and poorly ill in Rivendell. He asks Gandalf why he didn't meet them. Flashback to Saruman, Eagle, whatever... and then Frodo says "Gandalf? What is it?" and Gandy says, "Nothing, nothing..." and manages a little smile. And it always seemed seamless to me before - Gandalf recalls his recent humiliations at the hands of Saruman. But this time the notion entered my head that maybe something had been cut. And it occurred to me that in the book, Gandalf notices that Frodo is slightly transparent, especially around the injured shoulder and arm. Anyway, no way to prove it one way or another, but it now seems to me that it's the only interpretation that will do. Just something about their reactions, especially Gandalf's. It would be really cool to see the original scripts one day, as I'm sure we will (though probably not until all three are done).
THANK YOU HARRY!!!!!!!! by samwise_gamgee	Mar 30th, 2002 07:24:29 PM
I LOVED your description of the trailer...Even though I did see the traier, I was in a daze for most of it...Not quite believing that I was seeing footage from T2T...Reading the description brought it all back. I hope that this will help tide me over until another trailer comes out soon...Everyone, if you see another trailer, or see any movies that have the trailer in the beginning then PLEEEEEEEASSSSSSE post here!!! WE HAVE TO KNOW!!!!!
Barad-dur, Minas Morgul, Orthanc, Cirith Ungol...So many towers, by samwise_gamgee	Mar 30th, 2002 07:49:46 PM
Grrrrr....Curse publisher for inventing title..."The Two Towers." annoyance There HAPPENS to be a billion towers in that book. Personally, I do think that the actual "Two Towers" should be Orthanc and Barad-dur...I read somewhere that the title represents the "unholy alliance between the towers, between Sauron and Saruman." But wonder why publisher said towers are Minas Morgul and Orthanc? Must think on this...Perhaps publisher was drunk...Has anyone else noticed how ODD the title sounds after Sept. 11? "The Two Towers." Must think on this...
Crom!!! by Conan_the_Humble	Mar 30th, 2002 11:18:53 PM
Damn, that preview looks good. Please disregard my previous post. I'm going to see FOTR again!!! Though mainly to see the preview footage for TTT. Does anyone know if you can download it somewhere? Surely someone has copied it by now. Come on people!! You've had since Friday... Cheers
I also saw the trailer in a packed theatre, realfan-3 by exPFCWintergreen	Mar 31st, 2002 01:36:29 AM
It was a small theater, though. Mabye 75 seats. And it was the only theater in town that was still showing the movie. And I also want this movie to beat Harry Potter. We have some commonalities, realfan-3. I must admit to being underwhelmed by the trailer. Not that it wasn't good, it's just that this was only my 3rd time seeing 'Fellowship' and the first two times I saw it, were the day of the movies release and the second day of the movies release. Therefore, upon the end of this viewing I was still very much caught up in 'Fellowship' and I wasn't all that in to the trailer._____ What was real cool though, I was seeing the movie with these friends who are big fans of the book and who love the movie, but they aren't in to movie news like I am. I didn't tell them about the preview and they practically shat themselves when they saw it... However, it was either a shitty print or more likely just the shittyness of the theater I was in, but I could now where as near see the trailer in the detail Harry described it. Some of the Helms Deep battle scenes he described as jaw-dropping, just looked like a bunch of blurry ants on the screen. (okay, not that bad, but still not that great)
What's the big deal, anyhow??? by Blue Cupcake	Mar 31st, 2002 06:43:38 AM
I don't really think that anyone has any right to bad-mouth the LOTR movie. Besides, is it really ours to judge? On a lighter note, yah, I guess we CAN judge, and say that all you LORDHaters ABSOLUTELY SUCK! WHERE THE BLOODY HELL'S YOUR SENSE OF ADVENTURE? FANTASY? GET YOUR SILLY LITTLE HEADS OUT OF YOUR ARSES FOR 2 SECONDS AND LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE:The big picture sucks, that why we have these wonderful stories, brought to life on screen for us, to give us the chance to experience a world that we'll never know. If you have something nasty to say about LOTR, I vote you turn that sombitch sideways and stick it straight up your candy-ass, 'cause you're obviously too dense to apprechite a classic -- deal with it. Oh, and by the way, laugh and the world laughs with you:cry and you cry alone: NOBODY'S LISTENING TO YOU ASSHOLES! SHOVE IT! ~~~~~On a lighter note, I love the whole LOTR thing--it's got to be the most amazing story I've seen concentrating on that "realm," and for J.R.R.T., I say, "thank you," just for giving us this little piece of a dream that we can all enjoy.
TTT preview was awesome by Dragonfire	Mar 31st, 2002 08:42:32 AM
Viggo Mortenson IS Aragorn. Ian Mckellen IS Gandalf the white. I noticed Ian Mckellen seems to be playing Gandalf similar to the way Christopher Lee plays Saruman. The way he spoke and carried himself seemed similar. Obviously, this makes sense if you know the story. The battle of Helms Deep looks amazing. As Harry said, no one's ever seen a battle like that on film before. Thousands of orcs climbing up the walls to assail the defenders. Aragorn shouting "Fire!" followed by a hail of arrows. One of the coolest parts must be Frodo's "It's the ring, it's getting heavier." Anyone who sees this footage and doesn't feel excitement....there's no hope for you. New Line shouldn't put this on the internet though. I won't be able to stop myself from downloading it and watching it about fifty times. I can't believe the effects are not even complete. I hope they don't add any effects to the Helms deep scene. It looks amazing enough as it is, far more real looking than the Last alliance battle in FOTR. Putting to much CGI into something can ruin it, like the massive Jedi battle in AOTC which has the potential to be cool but, judging from the latest trailer, looks like a computer game. It's great to have so many fantasy films coming out this year but, judging from the trailers, TTT is the only one that looks good. Spiderman looks like fun but AOTC...well...I'd rather not think about it. The only thing I didn't like in the TTT footage was Gollum. He looked semi-realistic but he needs to be completely believable for the film to work. It's the first time a CGI character is going to play such a massive part in the story (Jar Jar binks doesn't qualify as a character), but the effects are not complete so hopefully they'll work on Gollum more.
Fuck Pud, Fuck him up his stupid ass by chris111200pvi	Mar 31st, 2002 03:49:49 PM
Pud, who gives a fuck about that bastard!! I am getting sick and fucking tired of all of those lord of the rings bashers. They are just pissed because they are probaly a bunch of fucking ass pirates who finger their assholes to gay porn all day. They are probably upset because they know they are fukcing reatards that could never be as creative a person that peter jackson is, and they know that they could never create such a wonderful piece of artwork that lord of the rings is. Fuck pud, fuck him up his stupid ass. If he was here i would beat the shit out of him for his being so stupid . I hope Pud fucking gets hits by an 18 wheeeler, and that a piece of the 18 wheeler hooks into his skin dragging him down a highway for an extended amount of time, and then when it finally lets go, every lord of teh rings fan gets to walk over and take a nice long smelly shit on his face. Fuck you pud you worthless piece of ass fuck, you are probably a fucking nerd who has never kissed a girl who sits in his fucking basement and cries all day because he has no friends and his dad beats the shit out of him. It is not lord of the rings fault that your are fucking pathetic and that your dad fucks you in the ass everyday and whips you around like his own personal slave bitch. Maybe you should just kill yourself and get it over with, because you never served a purpose anyway, you sack of horse shit. Fuck you, you fucking gay fuck!! P.S. you are the most worthless fuckface ever. There is no point to your existence. Do every one a favor and beat the shit out of yourself for being so gay.
I have looked into the eyes of the oldest of all living creature by Skyway Moaters	Mar 31st, 2002 05:48:54 PM
... Fangorn, he's there, I saw him. He's only onscreen for a second and a half, but what I saw in those 2 seconds or so was a living being, not some puppet or CGI entity. Don't believe me? Come back and talk to me next Christmas. Hey! The films are going to become a holiday tradition solely by virtue of being released on the three successive Yules! Don't believe me? Come back and talk to in ten years after all three films are out and they and their attendant merchandise have been well chewed if not thoroughly digested, (I reckon digestion might take a bit longer) by the American pop culture 'Dragon'. Actually it's more like an enormous slobbering man child with a beanie on his head reading hustler and scratching his nuts, with Springer dialed in on the tube... but I digress... (as useral) Where was I, oh yeah: This post
Duh... is the posting order hosed again ? by Skyway Moaters	Mar 31st, 2002 05:50:11 PM
... Duh
I'm pissed off. by Gazza476	Mar 31st, 2002 06:10:33 PM
I went to the cinema today to see the TTT preview, they didn't show it!!!!!!!! Now I've been told it was only a ONE - DAY showing. Please someone tell if the cinema screwed up or was only really shown for one day. I will be pissed off if I missed it!
This page is now bookmarked ;) by ZuIu	Apr 1st, 2002 02:06:46 AM
(yes yet another "I saw it" story, mwahaha) I saw the trailer on the second day (Saturday) I wasn't expecting them to show it, since I had read on theonering.net that some people didn't see it, and some theatres weren't showing it at matinees (that'd be when I saw it) Well let me tell you when I saw "This Christmas" right after the movie I could've jumped for joy and done some sort of victory dance. I'm particularly obsessed with anything LoTR and couldn't stop saying how cool that trailer was, and ever since (well since yesterday) I've been planning to see it for the 8th, 9th and so on times just to recapture the sweetness of that trailer...and this page did it for me, well for the most part. I'll still go see it again, and again, and again... Thanks :P
Whats with all this LOTR bashing?? by ROMANWEB	Apr 1st, 2002 08:15:53 AM
First off, I really don't get why some people are ALWAYS comparing LOTR to SW. Apples & oranges on this subject! Seriously nerdo's, get a grip of yourselves before you start sounding like EVERYONE else who thinks LOTR sucks! At least be constructive in your criticism because the lot of you haven't obviously read the posts before when you can't give a solid reason(other than your ridiculous & typical my movie is better than yours cry baby voices)to why LOTR was a bad movie. I can't imagine how and why anyone with intelligence could possibly think FOTR had bad acting, bad effects, bad storytelling, or bad anything! You know you're reaching when you make a "CGI in the dark to hide bad effects" comment that holds no water what so ever! Give me a brake! I"m a huge Star Wars buff and I did Like TPM but no way in HELL did the gungan and droid battle scene look better than that opening sequence in LOTR! I have to give credit where credit is due! People, this is probably the best movie, of its kind, in ten years easily. Just accept it as a FACT and go watch AOTC with a positive attitude and not hope it to be something it was never MEANT to be. I'll be there with that attitude and in DEC I'll be there to see a continuing masterpiece continue to unfold. MY piece. Paz y que Senor te bendiga!
Calm down Chris111 by ROMANWEB	Apr 1st, 2002 09:16:30 AM
Buddy, anyone that writes in with nearly twenty "Fucks!" in a paragraph(3 in one sentence) is a person that is VERY opressed! Don't take anything anyone says to heart in a TB. It's all words, all talk and nothing more. Of course, you can reply to someone and point out that they sound like a moron but wishing death? Come on. You only sound homicidal and people might start to think it's you with the issues. Don't let someone get you into that bad of a tiff. That only means they got the reaction they wanted when they posted. It's all words baby, all words.
Miami Fans: Sunset Place showing preview! by Piglet#1	Apr 1st, 2002 12:55:57 PM
Must be a new reel... the colors are sharper, the dialogue clearer. Just beautiful! The entire theater was packed... granted it was a smaller venue than when it originally opened, but... everyone in the theater must have been die-hard fans because NO ONE STOOD UP AT THE END. When the last shot of Frodo and Sam faded to black and the words came up "THIS CHRISTMAS", all hell broke loose! Yahoo!
TTT 1-minute japanese trailer download by Piglet#1	Apr 1st, 2002 04:19:57 PM
If you go to www.orlandomultimedia.cjb.net there's a one minute download available of the trailer (it starts off with clips from FotR and then continues with TTT)... includes Treebeard, Eowyn, Faramir, blue-eyed Legolas, etc.
testing TB order... by DufusyteII	Apr 1st, 2002 06:11:41 PM
testing...
I know noones going to read this but... by euphonium	Apr 2nd, 2002 03:30:46 AM
I saw it a few days ago and it was fantastic!!! So cool!! The best bit was THE WHOLE THING!! It had a totally different feel, a lot darker. I cant wait!
Is it December yet? Jeebus Pleebus! by Pallando Blue	Apr 2nd, 2002 10:50:41 AM
By the way, thanks OrionsAngel, ya beat me to it. Review of that particular bootleg, if'n anyone else is thinking of grabbing it: It's a nice-size Quicktime screen; 20 meg file. BUT it's flickery and slightly angled--definitely taped in a theater. The colors are washed out/faded, and it's entirely too dark, making the (numerous) night scenes almost impenetrable without your monitor's brightness and contrast cranked all the way to 11. And the sound is tinny and flickery, being single-miked from ambient theater speakers. Clean, though, no audience noise at all, zero; the music sounds okay, but the voices come off as canned. So, believe me, YOU STILL WANT TO SEE THIS IN A THEATER. Especially the first time. But, the good news is, it's the whole T2T trailer! Which kicks ASS! And I can watch it 7 or 8 or 30 times a day right here at my desk! * Well, after a number of those viewings, it looks like, as of now, there's still Elves at Helm's Deep. At least the troops around Aragorn and Legolas are in that stylized-samurai gear, with elf-lookin' bows and sword hilts stickin over their shoulders. Ah well, there's still those reshoots this summer right? ;) * After 10 viewings, I still haven't found that dratted car. There's going to be one more show, there's one last friend who was waiting for the excuse of the preview to see it a paltry 2nd time and needs a companion to blame it on when sneaking out of the house some weeknight, and I'll make doubly sure to look for it this time. That wily Fox! He must be driving like a madman! er, fox. If I don't see it then, I'll just have to wait until August (aaauuugh! August!) and when it's been digitally excised I can haughtily declare "See? It was never there at all, and I am NOT insane. Enough with the accusations." *** Now then. Gollum--looked awesome! Of course, it'll ALL hinge on the face, but the body in motion... dyyyaaamn! And Serkis is giving Woodthorpe a run for his money, IMO. Of course, there's only been a few soundbites so far, we'll see. Here's some other thoughts--laughing Arwen is from flashback material..? I like her in the hood, slipping up to Narsil like a monk. If she's the engine behind it being reforged for Aragorn, and ROTK opens with it being reforged, I guess that locks Arwen out of HD. Now just gotta write out the OTHER Elves... (Okay, so it's my one gripe right now. I need SOMEthing to check the enthusiasm! Or >pop< goes the noggin.) Grima looks suitably oily n' unctuous. Catch him in the background as Saruman says "So, Gandalf Greyhame thinks he has found the lost King..."? Speaking of whom, MAN I cannot wait until the palaver at Orthanc! The look on Lee's face at the balcony "Gibbets and crows?!?" ...One thing I HAVE noticed in 10 FOTR viewings, there is NO spiky wheel within throwin' distance of the tower... Well, we'll just haveta wait n see. THEODEN: aw hell yeah. Nothing'll get my dad in the theater faster than a senior citizen action hero! :) And how cool did Eomer look, creeping along on horseback, spear lowered? Hate to be on the business end of that thing. Eowyn, mmmmmm. Ms. Otto, may I have this daahnce? >shhiiing< Erp! Okay! Put the sword down, my bad, no need for rough stuff! But thanks for the shave, uh... And Treebeard! I like where that teaser was going, looks-wise. Very... tree-ish. That eye... Dang. Impressed. I'll only be happy, though, if when Treebeard talks he inexplicably exhales leaves into the air! Because in Bakshi's LOTR, that was HILARIOUS! (Almost as good as his Sam!)
love the preview !!!esp the Theoden bits by 8	Apr 2nd, 2002 12:34:16 PM
esp the "where is the horse and the rider..." part. freaky. theoden is freaky. anyway i think soemone was asking what was with the recitation. the lines are cut directly fr a poem apparently v famous in Rohan that Aragorn chants just before they enter Edoras. v cool, including it!!! cant wait for TTT. 261 more days!!!
Pallando... do you remember what happened last time you talked a by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 2nd, 2002 03:14:49 PM
They're still scrubbing the blood off the walls. Yeah, spitting leaves, that was so... "stupid" is the world I'm probably looking for. Goddamn, Sam sucked in that movie.
New DVD scenes: details & analysis by DufusyteII	Apr 2nd, 2002 04:05:33 PM
"A new addition to the opening sequence in which Bilbo provides background on Hobbits and their history in voice-over as he writes his memoirs." Could be good; then again, the current opening sequence(s) are so perfect, I hope this addition won't spoil anything. The film is currently perfect, right up through Bilbo's party. ***** "A new introduction to Samwise Gamgee, seen in his capacity as a gardener." This is definitely needed, since we will get a firm grip on who Sam is, and thus he will make sense throughout the rest of the film, rather than being a perpetual enigma. *** "A scene taking place at the Green Dragon Inn, which introduces us to the camaraderie of the Hobbits (we see them singing together) and sets up the geopolitics of the story." A moment of levity is always welcome in this somewhat monotonously tense film, plus songs are quite daring if they are shot correctly (the eye should be entertained and mesmerized by the visuals even with the sound turned off; no lengthy static shots during a song, please). Do we get to see Rosie dancing some more? :) *** "The Hobbits witnessing the departure of the Elves from Middle Earth on the way to Bree." Sure, why not. It gives a greater sense of the overall geopolitics in MiddleEarth. *** "Aragorn watching over the sleeping Hobbits, singing the ballad of Beren and Luthien to himself in the night." It is this kind of ballad singing that sets Tolkien apart from shallower fantasy like Conan. Tolkien is high art - sing that ballad! *** "Aragorn at his mother's grave, in which we learn that he was raised by Elves and that Sauron has long hunted him." Cool, a greater sense of who Aragorn is, and where he is coming from. *** "Two new moments during the departure from Rivendale, one in which we see Arwen's emotional reaction to Aragorn's leaving, and another in which Elrond sees the Fellowship off." More Liv is always good (especially if she is not wielding a sword against Aragorn, like she is when they first meet in the forest). But the real bonus is having Elrond see the Fellowship off. I hope he gives a nice speech to state why the fellowship makes sense. During my third movie viewing, I realized that the film lost me after the Council of Rivendell precisely because the forming of the fellowship seemed to make no sense, and hence I could not "buy into" the existence of this bogus fellowship, nor care much what happened to them. The reason the fellowship did not make sense to me is that the little hobbit Frodo pipes up (for no apparent reason) and says he will take the Ring to Mordor (which is a ridiculous proposal), and everybody accepts it for no apparent reason. We needed at least a shot of Elrond giving a firm nod of approval to Frodo's proposal right after he proposes it. We know Elrond is impressed with Frodo's bearing of the Ring so far, and Elrond dispises men and dwarves and believes the elves are on the wane, so it makes sense that Elrond would give the nod to a Frodo. But we need to actually see him give that firm Nod at the council, and then subsequently when everybody falls in line with the proposal, it makes sense because they are following Elrond's Nod, since Elrond is obviously the Decision Maker at the council. Thus the hobbit centric fellowship would be Elrond's (Wild) Idea, which makes sense. That would let us get a grip on how the fellowship came to be constituted in the way it did, and what were the factors that produced such an odd company. But as it currently is in the film, Frodo pipes up, everybody falls in line behind Frodo's proposal without even a shot of Elrond's face (we are given no idea that Elrond approves of Frodo's proposal), and then after everybody has signed on, Elrond's face finally comes on screen, as though he is faced with a fait accompli (a done deal) which he quasi-reluctantly accepts. It gives the impression that Frodo suddenly became the Leader of the Council, and everybody followed him, and then Elrond had to reluctantly accept the result. And then when Sam and Merry and Pippin pop up, it gives the impression that Elrond has totally lost control of the issue, and he is powerless to stop anybody from joining the fellowship who happens to drop by. So, to recap, the current presentation of the forming of the fellowship at the Council seems totally contrived, and I could not buy it, nor consequently buy into the adventures of the fellowship from that point on. But if the consitution of the fellowship made more sense, namely Frodo making his wild proposal, Elrond giving a firm Nod due to his own prejudices against every race except hobbits, and then everybody else joining up because they respect Elrond's Nod, (and then you can still have the humorous addition of Sam and Merry and Pippin since they will be a comical afterthought, and they fit in with Elrond's general pro-hobbit stance anyway), then the fellowship will make sense, be believeable, and we will be able to buy into the fellowship, and buy into their subsequent adventures. As for Added DVD Footage: perhaps the extra footage of Elrond can help give legitimacy to the fellowship (but I still think the best solution is just to add a quick shot of Elrond giving a firm nod right after Frodo makes his proposal at the Council). *** "A scene with the Fellowship in the mines of Moria, in which we learn how the Dwarves themselves unleashed the fire-demon that eventually destroyed them." If Gimli does the talking, then this will help to give Gimli his minutes of Fame in Moria. The camera seemed to largely overlook him in his hometown. *** "A scene at Lothlorien, where Galadriel bestows upon each of the Fellowship a gift which will play an important role later in the Trilogy." Extremely important plot point. *** "And finally, more footage of the battle at Amon Hen." The Black Riders seem a bit wimpy both at the Ferry and at Amon Hen. Aragorn needs to state (perhaps at Bree to the gathered hobbits), that the Nazgul fear Fire and Water. Otherwise the Riders seem like inexplicable wimps when they are foiled at the Ferry and on Amon Hen. Also somebody needs to state (like in the book), that another reason the Riders backed off at Amon Hen is because once Frodo was stabbed, they let the wound do its work for them. Otherwise the Black Riders seem like the Black Wimps, since the only people they seem to be able to beat are townsfolk in hobbiton. *** All in all, the DVD additions are very valuable additions that can cast a whole new and improved spin on the film. My biggest concern is to legitimize the forming of the fellowship at the Council. If the formation seems too unbelieveable (as currently), then we can't really buy into anything they do subsequently. That is why the whole second half of the film (post-Council) lost me (emotionally). I could not buy into the contrived fellowship. * Info on DVD footage came from http://www.thedigitalbits.com/ mytwocentsa53.html#lotranncear ly
I noticed the new prints as well... by Skyway Moaters	Apr 2nd, 2002 07:41:49 PM
...Miami. I thought they looked better than all but one of the original release prints I saw. But the the DVD won't be transferred from a print at all. PJ and WETA digitized every foot of film they shot. It will go straight to DVD disc as ones and zeros, in what final edit and look they come up with. I haden't thoght about this in months but they they can tweak these films 'til doomsday if they like, everything: Contrast, shadows, color saturation, tint, you name it, a million other things. The final DVD box 3 or 4 years from now should nothing short of jaw dropping in every respect. A lot of films are going that route now that the terabytes of storage needed aren't cost prohibitive for a lot of film makers anymore. Full length CGI features have really only been possible for about the last six years or so, except for select Studios with deep pockets, for this very reason. Anyone know when PIXAR was established ?
Woohoo - somebody found my post! by DufusyteII	Apr 2nd, 2002 08:50:30 PM
My compliments to you, Miami, for finding a new post in this chaotic talkback. You are quite right, I totally confused the two Amon's.
Ok, I'll explain about the car. by BG	Apr 2nd, 2002 11:52:47 PM
Since Miami has spotted the little car cameo (curse the sharpness of his eyes!), I'd better explain. We all know of PJ's habit of giving himself a small cameo role in each of his films. What is less well known is PJ's habit of getting his Morris Minor car to appear in each of his films (see if you can spot it in each of his earlier works). Now I remember somebody on these very TB's, a long time ago, speculating on where PJ's cameo may appear, and he finished his speculation post by saying that PJ would have to be a super human genius to work his car into Middle Earth! Well now you know! All hail PJ, super human genius!
Two things I have to throw out real quick... by Skyway Moaters	Apr 3rd, 2002 12:17:02 AM
... 1. It just occured to me that T2T and AOTC will probably be going toe to toe in the technical academy awards nominations; fx, soud editing etc. AND, 2. Has anyone checked out the T2T screen saver over at the official movie site ?(!)
SAM GETS TO SEE AN OLIPHAUNT !! by Pallando Blue	Apr 3rd, 2002 10:15:00 AM
Sorry for the SHOUTING up there, but Ingold has managed to pull off one the more annoying hose-jobs in memory. Good one! ;) [now if I can just... make it to... FRIST!] *** As to all the hub-bub, bub, got it right outta the Oscar winner's mouth itself! Here's the link, from TORN: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire / art-main.html?2002-04/02/13.00 .film [with a space inserted before "art"--no need to hose AND stretch eh? Not before my third cup of coffee anyway.] The significant sentence being, "You'll be seeing [the Mumak] in film two." Now, I'd always figured that the huge prop he was talking about was the one on its side, riddled with arrows we've all seen the photo of. And figured that to be on the Pelennor, of course, in ROTK. But is Taylor talking about that particular prop in that last sentence, or just that we're seeing Mumakil in film two? (The real subject of the paragraph being the progression of creatures in each film.) I don't imagine there being Mumakil at Helms Deep... SO, who wants to keep their fingers crossed we get to see Faramir's Green Berets skirmish with the Southrons! I more just want to see the look on Sean Astin's face when the Oliphaunt goes thundering by him into the woods....
Now that I've found a few posts by Pallando Blue	Apr 3rd, 2002 10:54:12 AM
Hmm, should I caps that subject line? Still hosed and all... nah, don't want to go spoiling people. * Alice, come on, you know that in your heart of hearts, in T2T, after Elijah Wood gently explains to Sean Astin that they're more likely than not on a suicide mission, what you really want to see is (after a moment's awkward silence) Astin for some goddamn reason to start pacing back and forth, whistling and swinging his arms about like he's bored shiftless at a bus stop. Because THAT was HILARIOUS! Who can't love a Sam like that? You KNOW Astin's got the chops for good comedy--and that stuff is GOLD! * Skyway Muh Muh MOATERS! Yep, the SW/LOTR crappe is going to hit Le Fan regarding the Oscar tech stuff next year, it's gonna get hip-deep in this place. Frankly I'm a major SW fan too, and wouldn't mind Ep. II sneaking in for a few trophies during LOTR's middle segment. (Cause let's face it, SW won't be in the running for any of the acting/writing/pic or director nods, which T2T most certainly could. I can throw my first love a bone. We all know LOTR'll clean up just one year later, while SW'll have to wait for three for any more action.) Where was I going? Oh yeah--you mentioned Pixar. Got me thinking--I knew I'd seen a fully computer-animated short ("Tin Toy") a looong time ago, in some Spike & Mike animation collection festival thing. Got a lot of ooohs and aaahs, I remembered, mostly from being computer-animated--this was science fiction stuff!--made me wonder just how long ago that was. Welp, Pixar's got themselves a pretty nice website turns out--who'd a thunkit?--and here's there whole story: http://www3.pixar.com/companyi nfo/history/ Turns out I saw Tin Toy way back in 1988! And it looks like their work goes back to 1984, even. Sheez. Now, what you were saying about the LOTR DVDs, very very interesting indeed! I knew they were doing the direct from digital transfer, hadn't really thought about it much more than clarity of picture. I wonder how much more fiddling they're going to do? *** CB, er PJ, er that is BG! Gimme a little slack, now: as I said I'm behind in my coffee intake this morning. Makes me credulous as hell. But I'm halfway to taking your bait on the car thing. In Bad Taste, is that the Morris Minor with the Beatles cut-outs with which Derek runs over Costa Botes? Or is it the Victim's car, with the stiff window crank? Surely it can't be the hot rod Terry blows up? And why do I have a strange pulling sensation in my leg? ;)
Pallando by BG	Apr 3rd, 2002 03:53:47 PM
The Morris Minor is the Victim's car with the stiff window crank. If I pull the other one will I hear bells? ;-)
Faramir - Eomer minor spoiler by Briandek	Apr 3rd, 2002 07:09:39 PM
I recently saw the TT trailer. I read the 3 books a long time ago, and I remember how Faramir was confused with Boromir (brothers) when first seen by Sam and Frodo. In the trailer though... I don't really know if I might be wrong but nevertheless Eomer is said to be the guy riding the horse with a spear. Yet in my opinion he looks more like Boromir than Faramir does.
AGHHHHHH!!!!! It won't work!! by elvellonriel	Apr 3rd, 2002 08:44:44 PM
Ok, I went to the site below where u can see the booleg form of the TTT trailer, and it worked last night, BUT IT WON'T WORK ANYMORE!!!!AGHGHHHHHHH! Most likely I am a complete moron and I can't figure it out for some obvious reason, but does anyone here have the same problem I do?
No comment you have to read this for yourself by Skyway Moaters	Apr 3rd, 2002 09:04:36 PM
...most of you wankers no doubt already know about this anyway: http://www.locusmag.com/2002/N ews/ News0401b.html Take out the space after the slash after NEWS. Didn't want to STRETCH the dogone TB since the posting order is already hosed to tim buk 2 an' back...
inarticulate with passion for TTT by Primmy	Apr 3rd, 2002 10:18:19 PM
Thanks for your gorgeous writeup describing the TTT trailer/preview. The flickery, dark "home movies" of the trailer on the internet do not do it justice! Although I saw it on Sunday, I was so full of adrenaline that I was unable to absorb it fully; it seemed to streak by and I was only able to recall bits and pieces. I think it will be an even more stunning and breath-taking chapter than FOTR, if that is possible. How wicked, how deliciously sadistic of PJ and New Line to drag out the releases over a three-year period! Yet, this is the closest to feeling like a kid waiting for Christmas that I've had in decades! Go PJ! -Primmy
Little inconsistency spotted (for those who collect such things) by DufusyteII	Apr 3rd, 2002 10:24:31 PM
When Boromir is dying, the camera alternates between two angles. in one angle (looking from over Aragorn's shoulder) you can see Boromir's hand clearly resting on Aragorn's shoulder. But when the camera alternates to the other angle, looking up at Aragorn, Boromir's hand is not on Aragorn's shoulder at all, but lying at his own side on the ground. The camera alternates several times between these two perspectives, so you get to be amused by the discontinuity several times. (not that I care about such things, but they are fun to find). It is an emotional scene though, so no one can be concerned with such details at a great scene like that. ******* speaking of things hard to find, I have a mega-post buried in this TB, in case anybody cares to hunt for it. The Easter-egg hunt has been won by Miami already; your chocolate prize is in the mail.
Hey Moaters... by BG	Apr 4th, 2002 12:25:43 AM
...thanks for the link. I'm afraid they'd have to get up a lot earlier on a fine April 1st morning to pull the wool over my eyes.
First! by BG	Apr 4th, 2002 12:26:36 AM

"P"ed Off by Hobrogan	Apr 4th, 2002 01:42:41 AM
Went to the only theater in 40 miles that was still showing LOTR in the metro Detroit area and someone forgot to set the film projectors cue for the new length with the trailer and footage after the credits. They wouldn't replay it for just me and my date, but they did give us two passes for another screening. Now I have to watch this great movie for free to see the footage. For anyone who cares, the theater is Star Fairlane in Dearborn.
Holy shit!!! by Mithril	Apr 4th, 2002 02:55:43 AM
That was my reaction last saturday when TTT stuff came on the screen. Travelled 4 hours to see that! Woohoo! 6th time seeing the movie (oh, and MorGoth, still fucking missed Gil-Galad... I was looking for the head dress this time, just saw a bunch of men in helmets, ordinary elves and Elrond... damn! Have to go frame-by-frame with the DVD then. Here's hoping for additional Gil-Galad in the November edition!!!). AOTC trailer, Time Machine trailer (so the movie's not great, but I dig the trailer and the cracking moon), Panic Room trailer and then FOTR! Still can't get over the TTT footage. The confrontation and flash involving Gandalf... Eowyn & Eomer looking exactly right...Gollum...f-ing Fangorn!...Brad Dourif being perfect as Grima...Theoden reciting his lines...that bit with Aragorn and Legolas in the dark as the lightning flashes...Helm's Deep! I've been sending incoherent messages on my mobile to my friends and relatives... *Okay, now a few points. Did anyone else notice how Gandalf's voice is much lower now? Almost sounds like Saruman. Very cool. Drath: agree with you on the movement of Shelob. Not only is it the single greatest cliffhanger ever (honestly, PJ, think of the drama!) but it also ties together all the threads established during TTT. **Stumpeyjoe: First of all, it's Glorfindel, not Gil-Galad. Secondly, even though I miss Glorfindel, I think adding some Arwen was a good choice. A lot of people I know (and me as well) have always thought it a bit odd that Aragorn chooses Arwen over Eowyn - not that I mind, since Faramir's my fave and he gets Eowyn in the end - so making Arwen a bit more interesting certainly clears that point up. Just look at JMYoda's post to see the usual reaction to the book romance! And as for the other fears you expressed, I think Elanor countered them pretty well. Could we just get some points clear, people. Philippa Boyens has said that Arwen is definitely NOT going to be at Helm's Deep and won't show up in Gondor until the coronation, either. So just chill! The happy-Aragorn-and-Arwen footage is probably going to be a flashback or something. She'll send the banner off with her brothers (kept looking at them all through the Council, so they are there, people) and the other elves - which I don't mind being at Helm's Deep, by the way - and starts reforging Narsil. She might even pop over to Lorien to see grandma and grandpa. I always thought the best way to keep her in was to show her handling the reforging and to show the dark forces attacking Lorien and Rivendell and the elves keeping them at bay. I mean, come on! I want to see Elrond and Celeborn in action. Haldir kicking ass. Galadriel using her powers to repel the bad guys. Arwen helping out.
the full preview is online... by hubisi	Apr 4th, 2002 02:25:17 PM
...at www.trailersworld.com but you should hurry up. they said that it won't be there forever.
BG!!! HA! HA! ha...... by Skyway Moaters	Apr 4th, 2002 08:17:48 PM
Of course I knew it was er um an April fool's prank ! I mean Duh!.. hah ha er um....
Hel-LO! (lo!..lo!... lo!... lo...!...) Anybody THERE? (ere?... e by Pallando Blue	Apr 8th, 2002 06:53:45 PM
Dang, take a few days off and the place vacates! Are there greener pastures I know nothing about? Mo's DVD story had just as little action. I'm lost! Confused! ...Or maybe.... This Talkback is MINE! MWA HA HA HAA! Finally, a TB of my very own... A mad despot over my own private Tail End... Now to get out my little Tailender dolls and start bossin' em around! Hee hee hee HEEEEeee....
Jeez Pallando, have you seen Quiet Earth? by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 9th, 2002 05:28:07 AM
There's this scene where the Last Man On Earth fills a field with cardboard cutouts and addresses his cardboard masses from a balcony cos he's gone barking apeshit crazy. Having said that, where IS everyone? Aside from repeating the same tired old discussion about Romero..
"The Quiet Talkback" (SCENE: Unaware that SpacePerv's come u by Pallando Blue	Apr 9th, 2002 10:30:56 AM
[morGoth doll (high-pitched voice)]: "Oooh Pallando, you are SO smart! The absolute smartest and you're NEVER wrong about Tolkien or the movies! I am forced to agree about EVerything you've EVER said about Merry's blade! Oh oh oh, how wrong I am!" (deep, strong voice) Why, that's okay, li'l morGy! We all make mistakes from time to time! [dolls in unison]: "Yaaay for Pallando! He's the BEST Tailender!" (deep, strong voice) Now now, please! [elanor and Alice dolls]: "And the best-looking, too!" [elanor doll]: "Back off, Alice! I saw him first!" [Alice doll, horribly off English accent]: "Roight, yew cow! Yewr mayrried, sow buggah!" [elanor doll]: "So're you, bitch!" [mashes the two dolls together, rolls them back and forth in ridiculous simulation of a catfight] (deep, strong voice) Please, ladies, please! You're embarrassing me! [SpacePerv clears his throat. Pallando Blue shrieks, jumps roughly 34 feet straight up. Lands poorly, struggles to his feet, begins dusting himself off.] Uh... heh heh. Well, at least I haven't been running around the Talkback in drag with a shotgun, right? Er... So! Um... >ahem< ....seen anyone else about?
two towers trailer online by TTTTrailer	Apr 9th, 2002 10:40:26 AM
http://lightsout.bla-bla.com/r andom/twotowers_full.mov
(AAaagh! Another one!) by Pallando Blue	Apr 9th, 2002 10:42:53 AM
Heya, Miami! [heel-kicking dolls behind him into nearby shrubbery] What? Nope, nothing, nothing's going on... [pleading look to SpacePerv] Just hangin' out, you know.... Nobody freaking out, all calm, all normal... Yep, just haaaangin' out.. [begins to whistle idly...] *** Dang, can't get the turntable hooked up, eh? Now THAT bites. Can't get some young punk in the neighborhood to break a sweat in exchange for a coupla Longbottom Leaf cigarillos..? Now then, Gondor jokes...
Gondorian Limerick Jam! by Pallando Blue	Apr 9th, 2002 11:53:54 AM
There was a young woman from Gondor * Who tried having sex with a condor. * As she spat out a feather, * She shrugged, "I've had better. * Believe me, he weren't no Thorondor!"
PJ sez, "I thought it would be funny, and more interesting, to s by Pallando Blue	Apr 10th, 2002 12:25:14 AM
Go NOW and pick up a copy of the new Cinefex magazine! It is everything you didn't think you needed to know about how the hell they DID all that! And MORE! 56 pages worth every penny of $9.50 + tax. It's midnight and I'm STILL reading it. Hell, buy TWO, one to reference, one to ruin! Er, I'm momentarily stumped for rhymin... lim'rix best done with second coffee... Spark up a Southern Star for me, Mofo. That there's a rum laugh indeed! And my own nada perspiration rule--heavy work's never necessary until there's at least THREE people waiting on ya. ;~)
ahh, the tailend, home of bad limericks... by Mithril	Apr 10th, 2002 03:47:03 AM
Here's a few totally lousy ones: "There was a guy named Tom Bombadil. Who was hung like a pony, though not Bill. He beat Old Man Willow, then lay down on his pillow. And shagged Goldberry at will." or "There's old crones in Gondor who say, that the King will return home one day. He can use Kingsfoil, and remove all our toil, and kick Sauron's ass come what may." Now that I've made my fellow tailenders cringe, my work here is done! But beware, for I may return (like the king, but with no interest in homeopathy)!
My turn by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 10th, 2002 05:29:30 AM
(BTW that cracked me up, PB). "Those Hobbits in Buckland are queer," * Said the Gaffer, and supped on his beer. * "Sam, you'd better behave, * "while you're off being brave * " and guarding your young master's rear."
by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 10th, 2002 05:52:02 AM
Elfkiller, Shaggins and Pud * Went out for a beer in their 'hood * The door was ajar * To the Blue Oyster Bar * They were Pulled, Shagged and Filled (jolly good)!
NO!!! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 10th, 2002 09:43:56 AM
Not limericks! Please God, no! Oh, okay. If you must. In any case, Elanor, I am willing to let the misuse of my doll go unpunished this time - but if it appears in any amateur puppet porn, I want a cut of the takings...
Oh my, what hath I unleashed..? by Pallando Blue	Apr 10th, 2002 12:00:28 PM
As Arwen's arse grew ever wider, * The King yearned for yon Eowyn the Rider. * "Though her position be lesser," * Moaned Aragorn Elessar, * I'd rather be Strider bestride her!"
Ah, Miami and Pallando by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 10th, 2002 12:12:42 PM
...lowering the tone in the Fourth Age since 1420!
There once was an Orc from Nantucket, by Pallando Blue	Apr 10th, 2002 12:15:23 PM
Heh heh! Just kidding, won't do it. Such wondrous poetry abounds! :~D Let's keep it goin! * elanor, Alice, what puppets? I haven't the slightest idea as to what you may be referring. [Kicks more dirt into shrubbery.] That's my story and I'm sticking to it. * Tolkien's Letters! The one book sorely missing from my collection. But I know if I got a copy right now, I'd read it right away, and I'm just cycling up the discipline to dive headfirst back into HOME. (The History of LOTR is up next, with hopefully enough time to get in LOTR itself right after, but before December 18th!) I look forward to your pull-quotes, elanor! *** Man, after reading that whole Cinefex article (go get yours, NOW!) I'm almost convinced to go see it for the even dozenth time, just to pick out the digital Fellowship charaters... A lot more of the Balin's Tomb fight than you might have guessed! And learning how they did those sweeping camera movements across Isengard, or Rivendell--a hell of a lot more complicated than I think anyone's given them proper credit for (outside the SFX biz). MAN I can't wait for the DVD.... So who else has got a copy of Cinefex? So much to discuss in there!
An Irresistable Cheap Shot by Pallando Blue	Apr 10th, 2002 01:19:27 PM
As simpering Smeagol he Slinks * And as treacherous Gollum he Stinks * For though he may be * A thing of CG * He sure ain't no damn Jar-Jar Binks!
Cinefex must wait by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 10th, 2002 03:01:25 PM
Bah! I'd have to go into town for a copy of Cinefex, so it will have to wait for the weekend. Anyway, saw the movie for (probably) the last time, along with Blade 2. Harry is completely wrong. LOTR may well be analogous to good oral sex, (though actually it feels more like a really hot guy squeezing your thigh gently for three hours while you dissolve into a puddle of fangirlyness) but Blade 2 more basically resembles banging a complete stranger you just picked up in a bar in a dark alley somewhere. Kind of interesting at the time, but afterwards one is left with bruises and a hollow feeling of "there must be more to relationships with movies than this". Now who's lowering the tone? Anyhoo, for some reason I just cannot get my Star Wars game face on, and we're already in April. And the weird thing is, I do believe it will be better than TPM. Ah well, the hype hasn't properly started yet, hopefully I'll get swept up in it and all will be well. Hopefully.
Laughed so hard, she hosed the Talkback! by Pallando Blue	Apr 10th, 2002 04:50:39 PM
I sympathize, elanor, been having much the same problem all day. :) * SW game-face, I know I know! By all rights and previous experience I should be a quivering adrenalized gibbering fool in anticipation of Episode II by now. And I'm definitely eager! But somehow... sane. It's just that every two weeks or so, for the last two months (by when when one might rationally have expected FOTR-fever to have cooled), there's been some amazing FOTR news or event (or Cinefex article), staggered ju-u-ust right in their timing to keep me off-balance and distracted from the impending Star Wars. But the road looks clear from now til mid-May. Maybe I should go find those soundtrack mp3s to help the transition... Because I also think it's gonna kick TPM's hiney about. And I even like TPM all right! (You-know-who notwithstanding.) Well, as I am a freak now for LOTR, so is one of my best, oldest friends for SW. I'm sure he'll get me on track for the summer months. * Now then, on with the GLJ! >ahem< *** Not one for linguistical filigree, * Despite his Tolkien Scholar pedigree, * When asked of the "books" * Skyway Moaters said "Look-- * "IT AIN'T A GODDAMN FUCKING TRILOGY!"
limerick heaven by hoodoo	Apr 11th, 2002 11:28:15 AM
That's some funny shit, bring on more madness.
[Repost, now that the TB order is sane] Comments on new scenes by DufusyteII	Apr 11th, 2002 06:21:42 PM
"A new addition to the opening sequence in which Bilbo provides background on Hobbits and their history in voice-over as he writes his memoirs." Could be good; then again, the current opening sequence(s) are so perfect, I hope this addition won't spoil anything. The film is currently perfect, right up through Bilbo's party. ***** "A new introduction to Samwise Gamgee, seen in his capacity as a gardener." This is definitely needed, since we will get a firm grip on who Sam is, and thus he will make sense throughout the rest of the film, rather than being a perpetual enigma. *** "A scene taking place at the Green Dragon Inn, which introduces us to the camaraderie of the Hobbits (we see them singing together) and sets up the geopolitics of the story." A moment of levity is always welcome in this somewhat monotonously tense film, plus songs are quite daring if they are shot correctly (the eye should be entertained and mesmerized by the visuals even with the sound turned off; no lengthy static shots during a song, please). Do we get to see Rosie dancing some more? :) *** "The Hobbits witnessing the departure of the Elves from Middle Earth on the way to Bree." Sure, why not. It gives a greater sense of the overall geopolitics in MiddleEarth. *** "Aragorn watching over the sleeping Hobbits, singing the ballad of Beren and Luthien to himself in the night." It is this kind of ballad singing that sets Tolkien apart from shallower fantasy like Conan. Tolkien is high art - sing that ballad! *** "Aragorn at his mother's grave, in which we learn that he was raised by Elves and that Sauron has long hunted him." Cool, a greater sense of who Aragorn is, and where he is coming from. *** "Two new moments during the departure from Rivendale, one in which we see Arwen's emotional reaction to Aragorn's leaving, and another in which Elrond sees the Fellowship off." More Liv is always good (especially if she is not wielding a sword against Aragorn, like she is when they first meet in the forest). But the real bonus is having Elrond see the Fellowship off. I hope he gives a nice speech to state why the fellowship makes sense. During my third movie viewing, I realized that the film lost me after the Council of Rivendell precisely because the forming of the fellowship seemed to make no sense, and hence I could not "buy into" the existence of this bogus fellowship, nor care much what happened to them. The reason the fellowship did not make sense to me is that the little hobbit Frodo pipes up (for no apparent reason) and says he will take the Ring to Mordor (which is a ridiculous proposal), and everybody accepts it for no apparent reason. We needed at least a shot of Elrond giving a firm nod of approval to Frodo's proposal right after he proposes it. We know Elrond is impressed with Frodo's bearing of the Ring so far, and Elrond dispises men and dwarves and believes the elves are on the wane, so it makes sense that Elrond would give the nod to a Frodo. But we need to actually see him give that firm Nod at the council, and then subsequently when everybody falls in line with the proposal, it makes sense because they are following Elrond's Nod, since Elrond is obviously the Decision Maker at the council. Thus the hobbit centric fellowship would be Elrond's (Wild) Idea, which makes sense. That would let us get a grip on how the fellowship came to be constituted in the way it did, and what were the factors that produced such an odd company. But as it currently is in the film, Frodo pipes up, everybody falls in line behind Frodo's proposal without even a shot of Elrond's face (we are given no idea that Elrond approves of Frodo's proposal), and then after everybody has signed on, Elrond's face finally comes on screen, as though he is faced with a fait accompli (a done deal) which he quasi-reluctantly accepts. It gives the impression that Frodo suddenly became the Leader of the Council, and everybody followed him, and then Elrond had to reluctantly accept the result. And then when Sam and Merry and Pippin pop up, it gives the impression that Elrond has totally lost control of the issue, and he is powerless to stop anybody from joining the fellowship who happens to drop by. So, to recap, the current presentation of the forming of the fellowship at the Council seems totally contrived, and I could not buy it, nor consequently buy into the adventures of the fellowship from that point on. But if the consitution of the fellowship made more sense, namely Frodo making his wild proposal, Elrond giving a firm Nod due to his own prejudices against every race except hobbits, and then everybody else joining up because they respect Elrond's Nod, (and then you can still have the humorous addition of Sam and Merry and Pippin since they will be a comical afterthought, and they fit in with Elrond's general pro-hobbit stance anyway), then the fellowship will make sense, be believeable, and we will be able to buy into the fellowship, and buy into their subsequent adventures. As for Added DVD Footage: perhaps the extra footage of Elrond can help give legitimacy to the fellowship (but I still think the best solution is just to add a quick shot of Elrond giving a firm nod right after Frodo makes his proposal at the Council). *** "A scene with the Fellowship in the mines of Moria, in which we learn how the Dwarves themselves unleashed the fire-demon that eventually destroyed them." If Gimli does the talking, then this will help to give Gimli his minutes of Fame in Moria. The camera seemed to largely overlook him in his hometown. *** "A scene at Lothlorien, where Galadriel bestows upon each of the Fellowship a gift which will play an important role later in the Trilogy." Extremely important plot point. *** "And finally, more footage of the battle at Amon Hen." The Black Riders seem a bit wimpy both at the Ferry and at Amon Hen. Aragorn needs to state (perhaps at Bree to the gathered hobbits), that the Nazgul fear Fire and Water. Otherwise the Riders seem like inexplicable wimps when they are foiled at the Ferry and on Amon Hen. Also somebody needs to state (like in the book), that another reason the Riders backed off at Amon Hen is because once Frodo was stabbed, they let the wound do its work for them. Otherwise the Black Riders seem like the Black Wimps, since the only people they seem to be able to beat are townsfolk in hobbiton. *** All in all, the DVD additions are very valuable additions that can cast a whole new and improved spin on the film. My biggest concern is to legitimize the forming of the fellowship at the Council. If the formation seems too unbelieveable (as currently), then we can't really buy into anything they do subsequently. That is why the whole second half of the film (post-Council) lost me (emotionally). I could not buy into the contrived fellowship. * Info on DVD footage came from http://www.thedigitalbits.com/ mytwocentsa53.html#lotranncear ly
Bjarki56 comment on Doofus by Mr Bonefish	Apr 12th, 2002 12:39:13 AM
Finally...someone with sense breaks the confusion that was never there. Read this Doofus. Be enlightened.
Council of Elrond by Galion	Apr 12th, 2002 11:15:23 AM
I've been enjoying the tailend talkbacks quite a bit, so I wanted to toss this out for consideration. In an earlier post, someone (sorry, minds a blank on the name) mentions Elrond's prejudice toward men and dwarves, as well as how Frodo seemingly just takes over as Ring Bearer. I would argue that Elrond can hardly be biased against Men, as one of his parents was human, and also his brother Elros. The inclusion of Dwarves in the Council would tend to belie the fact also, since the Dwarves felt sure enough of a welcome to seek out Elrond for advice. As to Frodo, here I'm in sympathy with those die-hards who wanted more backstory, although I think PJ handled at well as it could be done. Elrond tells Frodo in the FOTR that he believes the task was meant for him, alluding to Frodo being the choice of the Valar, and that if all the greatest elf-friends of old were assembled, Frodo should have a place among them by virtue of his task and acceptance of it. The council scene in the book was much more moving and effective. The movie council was the one scene in the movie where I thought omissions hurt the story line, if not critically. Again, I'm enjoying the JRRT esoterica immensely, and let's not forget the limericks!
So, this is the scene of the party in which by Pallando Blue	Apr 12th, 2002 11:22:47 AM
Dufe stumbles in his approach to the turntable, dragging the stylus across the record instead of just lifting the arm, then having drawn sufficient attention to himself asks everyone for the SECOND time that night what they all think of the hors d'oeuvres he'd brought, politely pointing out that obviously no one had heard him the first time (couldn't possibly have just been disinterest, it was just lost in the noise, yep, the noise). One or two people politely take a sample from the full tray he is shoving under everyone's noses and make a few courteous comments, while Alice cools down the spoilin-for-a-fight elanor, Miami Mofo pulls some vintage Tito Puente from its sleeve, and Pallando inspects the damage done to side 2 of Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock." morGoth, meanwhile, is, as usual, passed out in the hot tub, kept from drowning only by his asbestos water wings. * Cripes, ol' 'syte, if you're gonna step up to the mike in so tedious a fashion, at least give us a damn limerick first. C'mon! Limerick! Limerick! Who wants to hear a Dufusyte Limerick? [crowd goes wild] And make sure it's dirty! Because... * The limerick packs laughs anatomical * Into space that is quite economical * But the good ones I've seen * So seldom are clean * And the clean ones so seldom are comical * (I take no credit for that'un, it is compleeetely stolen.) *** Now, then, back to the mike with ye, and no excuses. Here, I'll warm em up: * A horny young lad out of Bree * For a lark thought he'd bugger a tree * And when he was spent * The quite surprised Ent * Smiled to himself quietly.
Aw hell, it's just a Friday izzall by Pallando Blue	Apr 12th, 2002 11:42:09 AM
And I don't find myself in the mood for genuine Tolkienalysis izzall. Catch me on a Monday, or, worse, a Tuesday. (Still, your turn at the mike, D! After a bloody RE-post of that size you bloody well owe us a bloody larf.) Cool to see some apparent lurkers poppin outta the shadows! Please hang out, smartasses abound >ahem< but we DO like to dig into the M-E esoterica, film & book alike.
You didn't mention the shot of Eomer, Mori by Drath	Apr 12th, 2002 12:36:00 PM
Played by Karl Urban, best known as Julius Ceasar and Cupid on Xena! Very destinctive face, a little surprised he's not playing Faramir actually. Anyway, that's probably the shot you said you're not sure about ("families in the mountains?" Whuh?).
Eomer, Faramir and Dufus by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 01:00:38 PM
Yeah, it took me two goes at the trailer on the big screen to get it. Eomer is the hunted looking dude on horseback I guess, whilst Faramir is on foot in another scene. You can see the white tree on his armour. I like the casting of Faramir on the grounds that whoever is playing him is hot. This is all as it should be. And Dufusyte... well. It is a Friday afternoon so let's just bicker and get it over with. I passed over the post the first time, and while it is cool to whine about stuff that didn't entirely work for you, I think to say the Council of Elrond scene, and the motivations of the characters, didn't work is stretching credulity, whether or not it was scripted by hardened Feminazi harpies. I think Mr. Bonefish covered the bases there, but I will add (since the punch is starting to kick in now and I haven't eaten since the hors d'oerves are too salted with clunky exposition for my liking) that while the Council scene in the book is cooler, the one in the movie is beautifully economical. I mean, I got it, even in the altered version. Frodo sees them all fighting in the Ring, then flames - how much symbolism does an impending apocalypse need, anyway? then comes to a decision... what's not to get?
"The Bow Guy" by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 02:00:26 PM
"Funniest... talkback... ever!" Oh, and let me show my ignorance for a moment (never stopped me in the past, I know) but... what the hell is that "Best death ever" phrase from? I'm thinking Battlestar Galactica, but only because there was mention of a Lorne Green pose on the Simpsons ep that featured it.
Partay!! by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 02:49:24 PM
I brought the whine to the party. What's wrong with that? ***** If anybody had read/responded to the original post, floating somewhere in the chaotic turbulence of a typically randomized TB order, I apologize for having missed it. I only found Miami's response, pointing out that I had confused the Amon's, which error I witlessly repeated in my cut'n paste repost. *** People are comparing the Council Scene in the book with that in the movie. For myself, I cannot remember hardly a thing about what the scene was like in the book. And that is the point. People who have the scene from the book still fresh in their minds can fill in the blanks which the scene in the movie leaves gaping. *** The scene is actually a crucial turning point in the plot, since it sets up the entire second half of the film. The first half of the film is "Frodo stumbles upon ownership of the Ring, and successfully disposes of it to Rivendel." The second half of the film is, "Frodo is assigned to retake-up the Ring and bear it to Mordor, with the help of a fellowship." The turning point is the Council itself. If the Council is not convincing, then the whole second half of the film stands on shaky/contrived ground. ***** btw, the Theatrical Release DVD will be available August 6th or thereabouts (or is this old news?). Do you think there will be any fan-made Phantom ReEdits appearing subsequently? Perhaps someone will splice in some scenes from the edition reshot in Lego format: http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~bnh/ lotr/lotrstory00-00.html
Drunken bickering, part two... by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 03:49:16 PM
(Knocks back third glass of punch)Dufus... but I still don't see what's "gaping" about the plot in the movie. There is an evil Ring that Sauron could use to enslave Middle-Earth and the Free Peoples. We see Frodo and Gandalf have this conversation. We see Gandalf refuse to touch it, as it would wield a power through him to terrible to imagine. We see Saruman jonesing for it. We see Frodo being told to never put it on. Then we see a lengthy exposition flashback with Isildur falling into its power (for the second time, I might add). Then we see Aragorn angsting with Arwen about inheriting Isildur's weakness about the Ring, a scene not even in the book and a scriptwriting invention. As far as the books go, Aragorn never shows the slightest interest in the Ring. Then we see said Free Peoples fall out at the Council, and the only person still seated and not losing their rag is... Frodo! Who then has a vision so full of obvious symbolism, that the chairs in the cinema even get the point. The Ring is bad; if it isn't dealt with, bad things will happen. If there are any criticisms, it's that this point is being hammered home too much. Wizards and warriors and kick-ass types plus Ruling Ring do NOT mix. I know loads of people who really dug the movie but never read the books, and even they got that the Ring was bad and needed destroying, even without watching it disintegrate Boromir. It's Frodo because a) he volunteered because that's the kind of selfless little guy that he is, and b) as Gandalf says in the movie, something also chose Frodo. I fail to see how any of this wasn't covered in the script. As for why the others volunteer, well, they've been sent by their kings or whatever to a secret council to help out. They're all out of the top drawer of Middle Earth's kick-ass, which is why they're sitting there with swords and bows and enormous axes. Elrond says in the movie that they've been summoned to answer the threat of Mordor. And as for the hobbits, of course they're going. Like they're not going to go. "So you're off to Mount Doom then, Cousin Frodo? Hmm. Bummer. See when (or rather if) you get back." Not everything in a movie should be said in an explicit burst of exposition, "Yes, Frodo Baggins, you must go, because clearly you alone are pure enough of heart and humble purpose whereas the mightier a Ringbearer is, the more tempted to fuck up they are." Movies are about showing, and not telling. Sometimes implicit is cool. The book is implicit, certainly much more so than the movie. Anyway, loads of people loved the movie, so clearly somebody out there got it. Frankly, I think that if you were quite as distant from the source material as you let on, you wouldn't be having this problem with their motivations.
the partay continues... by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 04:01:27 PM
Ok, I just read the Lego version of the Council. http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~bnh/ lotr/lotrstory04-01.html which I assume follows the lines of the book. What struck me: Boromir is introduced as guest of honor by Elrond. This is as it should be. (See my rant entitled "Boromir" a couple TB's back...or maybe don't see it if ya don't want to, heh) As heir to the Stewardship of Gondor, Boromir is analogous to being Vice President of the Free World. He is famous and powerful. Notice that Elrond states the name since people might not know Boromir by face (no TV), but Elrond assumes that once he states the name "This is BOROMIR," everyone will know who Boromir is. Elrond does not state, "This is Boromir, Son of the Steward of Gondor," since everybody already knows who Boromir is, since he is one of the most high profile figures in MiddleEarth Geopolitics. In the movie, Boromir seemed to be portrayed as a renegade villain, as opposed to a Leading Dignitary in MiddleEarth. Boromir comes from a position of power and strength, but Bean seemed to portray him from a position of weakness. Boromir tends to take Command, because he is in the position to command. Bean seemed be a whiny scoundrel that nobody paid much attention to. The glory of Tolkien is that his characters are nuanced. Boromir is not a blatant villain. There is much subtlety and ambiguity in his character. I think the film painted him too stereotypically as a villain throughout. See elanor, I like subtlety sometimes! :) Plot should be blatant, but characters should be subtle and nuanced. We should know clearly why people make the decisions they make, but we can still be amazed that they choose to make the decisions they do. ***** Getting back to the Lego version of how Frodo ended up assigned to bear the Ring to Mordor, it seems clear that Elrond, who is clearly in charge of the whole situation, has already decided that Frodo is most suited, and Elrond steers the process until Frodo pipes up despite himself. This also has an air of unbelieveability, since there is no reason for Frodo to pipe up, even if Elrond is manipulating the Meeting to that end. The citing of prophecies about halflings did help to create an atmosphere of Manifest Destiny that a hobbit would bear the ring. But even if hobbit-destiny is established, and Bilbo is ruled out (for no apparent reason), then there still is no convincing reason for Frodo to step up to the plate. Tolkien really cheats in this regard, where he is forced to write, somewhat sheepishly, that Frodo spoke: "and wondered to hear his own words." Cut me a break. Not only does Frodo wonder to hear his own words, but so do we! Please Mr. Tolkien, you have to give us something more convincing than this, to have Frodo bear the ring. It appears that JRRT is relying mainly upon Hobbit-Destiny as preordained by prophecy, as the reason why Frodo ended up with it: It was Fate. Indeed, the line before (in the Lego Version, at least...and as you can see, I consider the Lego Version to be Authoritative :)), as I was saying, the line before is, "A great dread fell upon Frodo." This "Great Dread" seems to indicate "Fate Taking Hold of Frodo." It is like the descent of the Holy Spirit, or it is like "Satan had entered into Judas," kind of thing. It is a case where a spiritual force takes over a person, to a certain extent. So apparently JRRT would have us believe that Fate "fell upon Frodo," and Fate opened Frodo's mouth and blurted out, "I'll take it!" much to the hobbit's own surprise. Well...ok, I guess...if that's the way you think Fate acts, then I guess it is believeable. After all, somebody's got to fulfill those prophesies, eh? We can't just have unfulfilled prophecies lying around, now, can we. *** So, I guess my point, to the extent I have one, is that Tolkien's explanation of how the Ring came to Frodo at the Council is itself not particularly convincing: Elrond believed Frodo should take it; there were prophesies suggesting a hobbit would take it; Fate in the form of a Great Dread fell upon Frodo, and he blurted out his unwitting consent. It almost sounds like Frodo was the victim of a Jedi Mindtrick. Elrond (waving his hand): "You want to take the Ring." Frodo (with glazed eyes): "I want to take the Ring." *** The film suggests another motive for Frodo, namely that Frodo has a bit or wanderlust in him, and, as he says to Bilbo in Rivendel, Frodo frequently imagined adventures for himself. This suggests that Frodo wants to emulate his Uncle Bilbo, and have his own adventures just like Uncle Bilbo did. This makes perfect sense, and if highlighted more, supplies a totally believeable motive for Frodo taking up the ring. In this case, however, Frodo should be a bit eager and gleeful in volunteering for Service, since he is finally getting the Adventure he has long dreamed of (which he presumably foolishly thinks will be fun). In this case, it would not be a great dread that falls upon him, rather it would be great excitement, as Frodo realizes that he actually has a chance to become the Star in the story of the Ring. ***** btw, notice how the book has the liberty of telling us what is going on inside people's heads: "A great dread fell on Frodo." "He wondered to hear his own words." These kinds of Omniscient Narrative texts give us direct access to everybody's motives/motivations at each step. Since the movie does not have an Omniscient Voice-over telling us these things (nor should it), the movie must communicate the characters' motivations through dialog (or through visual cues, though they better be very blatant visual cues so that even dull people like Dufusyte can get them). Just thought I'd take the opportunity to repeat this for the 100th time, since the passage at hand is a perfect example of Omniscient Narrative Motivation Describer in action. Ok, I think I'm done now (but you never know).
cousins by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 04:20:38 PM
Were Merry and Pippin Frodo's cousins? That adds a whole new motivation for Merry and Pippin sticking with Frodo thoughout his perils. It is an extremely powerful and important and believeable motivation. However, I totally missed it in the film; was it even mentioned? They have different last names. The run into each other in Farmer Maggots field. For all I knew (and for all the movie watchers know), Merry and Pippin are just fellow hobbits and mere friends of Frodo. It SERIOUSLY needs to be mentioned that they are cousins! Indeed, even if they were not cousins in the book, they should be made Frodo's cousins in the film, since it provides the necessary motivation for the hobbits to stick together throughout the perilous adventure. ******* If it is never mentioned in the film that they are cousins, then this is a good example of a gaping Motive Hole that needs to be filled. Maybe in the new Green Dragon footage Frodo can greet them with, "Cousins!" That would cast the entire adventure in a new light. WE HAVE TO KNOW WHO CHARACTERS ARE. We have to know Sam is a servant, and Merry and Pippin are family.
Helpful Subtitles by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 04:20:46 PM
Perhaps I have been unkind - Mr. D may well have been viewing this on pirate DVD. Which would explain a lot: http://www.anime.net/~laine/Pa rody/Lotr/badsub00.html
But it does mention that they are cousins by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 04:28:23 PM
Pippin at the bar in Bree laboriously explains his family connection to Frodo to strangers, thus triggering Frodo's "accident" with the Ring.
"Boring through a wet blanket by dragging it all down on a stick by Pallando Blue	Apr 12th, 2002 04:39:47 PM
...he managed to hijack the party-train, rerouting it to Dullsville." >sigh< * elanor, Brava! Love the edit, it scans much better! I was having much the same idea about collecting em and sending em. You know, as a perfectly good excuse to drop another line to Master Botes (a joke I'm sure he was sick of by the first semester of 5th grade). Sort of dropped off last week... * All right, someone grab the mike outta his hands before this gets ugly, and everyone starts throwing dip and empty bottles at the bloke. * There was a young lady from Edoras * Who wanted young Merry to bed her ass * On her tent-wall that night * Their sillhouette was a sight * And the lady was labeled a pederast
Oh, bloody hell's bells... by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 04:59:00 PM
I have a fear and loathing of limericks which has haunted me all of my life, (on account of being bitten by one as a child) but just for you, Pallando, I'll get the lead out: There once was a Balrog named Bob Who was greatly in love with his job "Though wizards I've slain And Elves caused much pain I still can't get a date with Shelob." There. Now. Trouble me no more. Where's the rest of the punch? And did someone say morGoth was passing a bowl around?
how to throw away the important lines by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 05:32:35 PM
Alice, if Pippin/Merry explains the family relations at Bree, I'm afraid the lines are so well hidden in a flux of other distracting elements that I managed to miss them during three viewings. There are some things that need to be communicated very clearly to the audience. I'm afraid the familial bond between the hobbits is one such thing, and it was not communicated clearly at all. That is, 80% of viewers exiting the theater will not tell you that the hobbits were relatives, and the other 20% only know it because they read the book. ******* A similar thing with the marriage/immortality decision of Arwen: this is something that needs to be communicated to the audience clearly. Yes, there are some lines of dialog talking about "immortality" and "love" and "I'd rather go through one life with you than forever alone," etc., but for all the pretty language, it still did not succeed in getting the point across. Again, you have to poll the exits, and 80% of the viewers did not get it that Arwen will lose her elven immortality if she weds a man.
"Maybe you saw a different movie." by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 05:39:13 PM
The movie I saw had mainly lego pieces. The acting was...shall we say...stiff.
just for you by DufusyteII	Apr 12th, 2002 06:05:57 PM
bjarki56, you can find the critically acclaimed Lego Version here: http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~bnh/ lotr/lotrstory00-00.html ******* As for the polling data, I stood outside of theaters worldwide collecting this highly scientific data, which is accurate with a 1% margin of error. The data is highly volatile, and subject to spontaneous permutation should it fit my argument. You know what they say: "There are Lies, there are Damn Lies, and then there are Statistics."
Contrarian Blues! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 12th, 2002 06:22:28 PM
(Lifts head from where it is slumped in her arms) Dufy, there's not much to add, really. You deserve to know where I am coming from. Your insights into what makes a good LOTR script, with all the accompanying clunkiness, have always made me shudder, and you've been posting on these TBs for a good while now so I've seen a few examples. It ultimately doesn't matter if Merry and Pippin are his cousins (though the movie points it out). More importantly, they're his mates and they give a shit - all the viewer needs to know. That's why they go. Your insights of how the movie could be improved by making it accessible to people who weren't paying attention while watching it are really beside the point. The script and direction are fine and clearly far better than you could achieve, which is not a mere kneejerk talkback insult in this case, but amply demonstrated by your numerous attempts to do just that. I'm sorry you didn't like the movie. Really I am. But I think you should move on with your life. It's been nearly six months now. Unless of course you are just some sort of contrarian wind-up merchant, which actually is more of a comforting thought than otherwise, because the idea that these might be real opinions is vaguely terrifying. I would not normally be so harsh, but your remarks on exit polls you have clearly invented (especially concerning an issue that has two more movies to develop in) were so silly you deserve a glass of punch spilled in your lap. Additionally, considering how long and faded a memory the source material is, I'm surprised you remember the first thing about Arwen (known and loved by millions, no less - hmm, where do I remember reading that...) since her sacrifice is not made that clear in the book. In the book, which I am not ashamed to admit I am familiar with, I believe she has about three lines, towards the end of ROTK, and a cameo without lines during a dinner party in Rivendell. Oh well. And I swore I wouldn't respond, too. One thing I will actually agree with you on - they should explain Sam and Frodo's relationship (though Sam is accosted in the act of pretending to garden in the Jackson version, it could be clearer). Bakshi bailed on this one too, but then Bakshi bailed on Samwise full stop. Grr. Don't get me started. Where the hell is that bowl? I'd even take another limerick right now... so long as it has a muzzle on... Oh, and a final question to the world - has anyone seen the Rankin-Bass "The Return of the King"? Cos I was told years ago it was diabolical, and I'm very tempted to check this out myself, but don't want to end up with psychological scarring. (I'm going to buy a DVD player! Yippee!)
A brief history of fate. by pseudoplotinus	Apr 13th, 2002 02:10:47 AM
Dufus, if your problem is the role of fate as an external mover of events then your difficulty isn't just with Tolkien but with the entire classical tradition of literature going back to Homer. Fate was essentially a Greek concept in origin having its roots in the classical conviction that we live in a cosmos logically ordered and so even our choices and their effects can, from a divine point of view, be linked like a chain to the future consequences of todays actions. Story telling in this tradition is simply the gradual revealing to the audience of how the actions of the hero play out in an internally logical manner leading to the fate that was hinted at in the beginning. Thus, the classically writen story was a kind of revelation of this higher logos guiding events. LOTR is among other things a story written in this tradition. Everything for ordained in Middle Earth proves true in the end because Middle Earth was among other things created by a classical mind. A distaste for the idea of fate is infact a peculiarly modern disposition rooted in 20th century existential bias that holds that any teleological (purposive) interpretation of history to be wrong minded and that if such an order existed then it would impinge upon the natural freedom (metaphysical freedom is the phrase Sartre used)of man rendering him a kind of absurd puppet not unlike your notion of Frodo as a victim of a Jedi mind trick. Clearly Tolkien was NOT an existentialist. That being said I think Frodo's act must be viewed from a twofold perspective: psychological AND fateful. One classicist puts it this way when referring to classical writer - Homer (the poet not Simpson), "This gives epic poetry a strange double aspect. The audience must see every action from two points of view - for it happens both on earth and in heaven. The stage on which the drama is played has two levels, and we follow the plot in human purpose and action and in the higher purpose of the ruling gods. Naturally this shows us the full limitations and short-sightedness of human action, with its dependence on the inscrutable decrees of a superhuman force; the actors cannot see these daemonic compulsions as the poet can...The fact that [Homer] holds the gods to be implicated in every human action and suffering obliges the Greek poet to see the eternal meaning of all man's acts and destinies, to find them their place in a general scheme of the world, and to measure them by the loftiest religious and moral standards ... Homer definitely places man and his fate in the foreground, although he sees them ... in the perspective of the loftiest general ideals and problems.' In my opinion Frodo's act should be understood within the ideals that Tolkien probably had in mind when he created him, namely the virtue of simple courage. According to Aristotle all action is simply a reflection of internal character. Frodo's act was a revelation of his character. Everything that drives Tolkiens story is largely classical in tone. The difficulty is with the modern cynical mind that wants to conform Tolkien's story to the rather arid conventions of modern psychological determinism. Fortunately Tolkien wasn't a modern man and so he knew that sometimes virtue can be motive enough.
Pseudoplotinus by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 13th, 2002 06:47:11 AM
That was a very cool post. But it gets me no nearer to the answer to my previous question - is the Rankin-Bass "The Return of the King" as awful as people say?
Free will. by pseudoplotinus	Apr 13th, 2002 01:19:32 PM
Bjiarki, I wouldn't suggest that Tolkien created his story with the notion that there was no free agency. This would undercut the values embodied in his own characters since, in the absence of free will, their actions would merely be the effect of a predetermined cosmos. The mystery of how fate and free will coincide in human action is THE fundemental classical mystery. I agree that the Greeks gave less room for free action in their culture, especially when you consider the tragedies. However you cannot invoke Boethius, or even catholic thought without tacitly invoking the entire classical tradition that it draws from. Also, in citing the Greeks as an influence on Tolkien I wasn't implying that that influence was exclusively pagan and non Christian but rather that Dufustye's mistake was in somehow assuming that it was peculiar to Tolkien or the Christian notion of the Holy Spirit etc. Infact its ubiquitous in cultures, it happens to be the most refined in the Greeks and the Classical tradition they began and that grew up to and including the medieval catholic thinkers. BTW, since when was Boethius the most influential thinker in Catholic thought? It's St Augustine, or atleast Aquinas.
Arwen and the Appendices by Galion	Apr 13th, 2002 02:41:50 PM
Alice, you are entirely right about the lack of anything significant explaining Arwen in the text itself. JRRT sticks that in the Appendices following the ROTK. There is some fairly important stuff there, such as Arwen's bitter grief when Aragorn at last must die, and she goes alone to lorien die as well. This is the precipitating event that causes Legolas to leave Middle Earth for the Undying Lands, and where it is also said Gimli went with Legolas, granted passage alone of all the dwarves for the love he bore Legolas and Galadriel. Sorry to sound schoolmasterish if you were familiar with that, it's just been my experience quite a lot of people never get around to read those dratted appendices, heh. Oh, and my contribution- There was a young lass down from Bree, whose breasts were quite something to see, and the lads from the Shire just mad with desire, couldn't reach what was easy to see...
"their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick cu by DufusyteII	Apr 13th, 2002 03:58:58 PM
I believe this is exactly the line that lead me to picture the hobbits' soles as having thick curly hair. The sentence itself allows this ambiguity, since it does not specifically indicate where the curly hair is cladding the feet. Indeed, since the declaration of curly hair directly follows a phrase about soles, it is not entirely unreasonable to surmise that the cladding takes place on the soles. It is comforting to hear that I am not the only reader who received this impression, since the Swedish authority reached the same conclusion independently. I'm afraid that like Balrog Wings and the Pointy Ear Controversy, the Clad Soles Issue is yet another point of ambiguity in Tolkien's descriptions. Indeed, the only reason some parties have an intuitive aversion to the notion of hairy soles, is that they simply have an innate and irrational prejudice against the notion that a sole could be hairy. A hairy sole makes eminent sense, however, as it fits perfectly with the quiet footedness of the hobbit race.
Clarification by DufusyteII	Apr 13th, 2002 10:08:03 PM
I'd just like to clarify that Dufusyte is right and everybody else is wrong - especially elanor. ******* PS: be sure to see my post on Hobbit Feet which got randomly shuffled to the top of the TB.
Alice by pseudoplotinus	Apr 14th, 2002 01:50:56 AM
For what it's worth I remember staying up to see the Rankin-Bass Return of the King on tv. The fact that it's so hard to find on video is probably a blessing. Imagine 'Return of the Kind' as performed by the Precious moments characters. Oh, and Dufusyte, you're a wanker. An amusing wanker but a wanker none the less.
Can my heart stand the terror... by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 14th, 2002 05:08:37 PM
Of a truly awful animated ROTK? Clearly not. Though obviously I am going to be watching it. It's something that has to happen. Thanks Galion, I am familiar with the appendices, though I do understand that a lot of people don't bother, though I've never understood why. My favourite bit was always the hobbit geneologies. I used to sit and ponder their cool names. I remember reading The Silmarillion when I was about eleven, and to be honest it left me cold, but I may have been a little young for it. For the record, I am tempted to believe Tolkien when he said he disliked allegory, though the veil he drew over the fate of Man always intrigued me from a Christian perspective. He may not have dared to write a Divine plan, but there does seem to be a gap left that could be filled by it. If that makes any sense. I'm not that familiar with Augustine or Boethius, and lack learning to dispute the issue (something else I'm not ashamed to admit - perhaps others could follow my lead). And morGy, something I've always wondered - what the Hell is Club Angband? Is it an actual place, a virtual place, or does it exist only in the sooty imagination? Inquiring minds want to know.
And have some paranoid imaginings, absolutely free! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 14th, 2002 05:12:06 PM
Has anyone else ever noticed that trolls on a LOTR TB are like Japanese trains? They always run on time. There's about four or five posts, a gap, and then, lo and behold, one appears. Are they really just passing by? Or are they part of our scheduled viewing? Hmm. I shall think more on this.
Hello. by BG	Apr 14th, 2002 10:31:44 PM
The Blue wizard cried in despair, My staff just does not compare, I rub it each day, As hard as I may, But any increase is bound to disappear.
Following Alice's lead. by pseudoplotinus	Apr 15th, 2002 12:06:32 AM
Sorry if I came off like a know it all Alice. The issue with Boethius actually has a reason. One of Tom Shippey's few criticisms of Tolkien in his book has to do with a certain incongruity he observed due to his Boethian interpretation of good and evil in LOTR. So it's been an issue with me since. I was just wondering if Bjiarki had any view on it since she (he?) is catholic.
he he. by BG	Apr 15th, 2002 12:38:50 AM
In club Angband MorGy holds sway, With Balrogette in the snug is his way, he puts up with her smell, and fire breath from Hell, because with her udders she lets him play.
he he he. by BG	Apr 15th, 2002 12:52:14 AM
Elanor Hobbit lass from the south, Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, But just one sight, Of that poor Dufusyte, and his balls need insure their health.
Ooops... by BG	Apr 15th, 2002 12:57:40 AM
...I think my bad limericking has hosed the TB order.
I want Ents! Ents, Ents! (yeah, uh, um...) by pink sugar	Apr 15th, 2002 01:00:09 AM
Apparently this trailer neglected to include the beloved long- winded hippies of The Two Towers: that's right, the Ents! They would make such great toys for the youngsters. Press a button on your Ent toy and hear two steady hours of hemming and hawing--but mind the branches, they'll poke your eyes out! By the way, where Tom Bombabadil be at?
a whole Bree-load of stuff by Mithril	Apr 15th, 2002 03:20:57 AM
Ok, Faramir's looks. Gotta say that when I first read the books I always imagined Faramir looking REALLY great (almost Elvish beauty), but I'm really happy with David Wenham (though he's not as lovely as I'd imagined Faramir as) since he's got a noble, yet gentle face and looks like he could be related to Sean Bean (I mean, the hobbits at first glance seemed to constantly mistake him for Boromir because of the uncanny resemblance). *Now, for Elrond and dwarves. Though Elrond does have some prejudices against dwarves, I don't think he is as militant about it as some others, mainly because Rivendell is such a commonly used path through the mountains that elves, men and dwarves all go through on a regular basis. Celeborn and Thranduil are of course some of the more prejudiced elves, but that's because of what happened to their kinsman Thingol. Actually, in the extended version, I hope some of this is brought up when Gimli requests some of Galadriel's hair... Oh, and notice how at the Council meeting, when the elves are outraged at Gimli's words and start shouting, Legolas keeps his men at bay and stays quiet. Cool. Despite some mistrust, he isn't going to be drawn into an ethnic dispute. And I don't know why I even bother answering the same things as others, but Dufusytell: Boromir is not a villain in the film. He is certainly shown to be very human, and as someone who has grown very cynical, hopeless and fatalistic because of the constant threat of Mordor. His "Gondor doesn't need a king" line is also an example of this (Aragorn hasn't done anything for Gondor, they've fought alone all this time). He is proud, but very battleworn, as can be seen even today in countries where people have had to deal with the threat of war or occupation (especially border states that have acted as a buffer zone for others). His humanity (the sword practice, after Gandalf's fall) and bravery (his "they have a cave troll" is not frightened, just a sort of pissed off statement of the facts, his fighting in Moria and at the end) is in evidence. But as the book points out, Boromir is also very rigid in his opinions and sometimes acts without thinking. Though I will say that Dufusytell's point about Boromir's high stature in Middle Earth geopolitics is correct. And yes, the whole cousin thing is mentioned in the film. And certainly every time I've seen it, everyone in the audience seems to pick up on it, and some even laugh (I think the "related on both the mother's and the father's side" strikes people as funny). And as some have said, the main reason they go with Frodo is because they're his friends. Sam doesn't follow Frodo just because he's a servant. He goes primarily because he's his best friend (and partly because he made a promise and he won't break that vow). As for Frodo's wanderlust, I find it interesting how Frodo and Bilbo are exact opposites in that Bilbo originally didn't want anything to do with the outside world and was thoroughly happy with his life, but after his adventures always wanted more, whereas Frodo has always wanted to roam the world, but when he takes the ring to Rivendell, he realises that he really would rather be at home. (Which makes his decision to undertake the quest and his inability to feel at home after the quest all the more heartbreaking a sacrifice. After all, if he was just raring to go, there wouldn't be such tension.) *And finally a few limericks. These are serious, as I think we need some balance from the constant sex jokes. Frodo Baggins owns an odd ring, that can make vanish any old thing. But it gets precious and dearer, and the ringwraiths get nearer, and soon Frodo's under a Nazgul's wing. (and yes, it's the winged beasts, not the Nazgul's themselves that have wings, but it means the same thing here)* Sam came before Shelob's might. And smote her with
Snarkasm by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 15th, 2002 08:35:32 AM
Hell, Pseudo, I wasn't talking to YOU with the "follow my lead" quip. Or Bjarki or Elanor or other august members of this body. I only said it to snark at Dufy and his impractical hobbit feet, I guess I should watch my virtual tongue more. Except when I don't want to. It's easy to get caught up in stuff and it come out the wrong way. I'm actually following the debate with interest. And Mithril, I agree with you. Boromir in the movie is actually, to me, much more likeable than Boromir in the book, who was always a bit too stuck up and patronising for my liking. One movie change I really liked was his final speech to Frodo, from the original version which centred around Frodo deliberately betraying the Quest (which was unlikely, but a Ring-induced delusion on Boromir's part) to "you will beg for death before the end" which is in fact more dramatically interesting because it is very likely, the way the odds are falling out.
Boromir vs Aragorn: contrasting profiles by DufusyteII	Apr 15th, 2002 06:19:36 PM
At the time of the Fellowship, the greatest military power is arguably Gondor. The Steward of Gondor is without question the most powerful Man in MiddleEarth (note: Man, not counting elves/dwarves). The Steward of Gondor is loosely analogous to the President of the United States, as the leader of the military bastion of the Free World. His son (Boromir), as an heir to that position, would be one of the most highly respected Men in MiddleEarth in virtue of his (future) position. Bear in mind that the Stewardship of Gondor is Real, whereas the rumors of a king in exile is like some hippie fairytale about some unproven scruffy ruffian who has some supposed right to the throne. Even Elrond does not respect Aragorn, precisely because his Kingship is merely an unrealized dream. This dream of possible Kingship pales in comparison to the very Real and Effective office of the Stewards. It is like someone today who claims he is descended directly from the last Caesar trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with the actual European Heads of State. People would respect the actual power of the Heads of State far more than they would respect any claims of alleged birthright. Now, getting back to Boromir, my point is that Boromir should have been portrayed as a much more respected personage in view of his (future) office, rather than as the apparent barbarian outcast he seems to be in the film. Indeed, in the Fellowship, he by far outranks everybody except perhaps Gandalf. Imagine a fellowship consisting of GW Bush, Albert Einstein, a bunch of children, a short guy, a sharpshooter with pointy ears, and a hippie who claims he is descended from Caesar. Who would lead the fellowship? Who would receive respect? This is basically the dynamic of the Fellowship. I humbly submit that the tremendous stature of Boromir was not conveyed at all. As far as societal stature goes, he was the GW Bush of the Fellowship. Everybody else was just a peon (hobbits), a layman (Legolas, Gimli), a renowned eccentric genius (Albert Gandalf), or a crackpot (Caesar wannabe Aragorn). Boromir could afford to act with that brash self-confidence and self-conceit that so often manifests itself in the rich and famous and powerful of this world. Although Bean did a moving portrayal of Boromir, I think he portrayed Boromir too much like Bean's typical villain characters: an evil outsider. Bean should have conveyed more of the Respectability, and Self Confidence of Boromir. The "I am the future Steward of Gondor and the rest of you are inconsequential" air of Boromir. When news of Boromir's death reached round MiddleEarth, it would shake everyone, like the assassination of ArchDuke Ferdinand, or the assassination of Kennedy. Meanwhile the death of anybody else in the fellowship would not even make the last page in the MiddleEarth Times. Legolas who? "An elf was killed today near the Anduin River..." It's not even newsworthy. Gandalf is the one newsworthy exception, but Aragorn is clearly on the "unknown" list. "A man claiming to be the direct descendant of Caesar was killed today..." Compare that with "Heir of Gondor, Boromir slain by orcs!" It would be on the front page for months. It's the kind of incident that sets off a War on Orcs. It would raise cries of "Sauron has gone too far this time!" It would be a Sept 11th kind of incident, obliging Gondor to sally forth in retribution. It's an ArchDuke Ferdinand kind of event. I believe Boromir's immense societal stature was entirely unportrayed in the film. ******* Now that Boromir is dead, Faramir is Next in Line to the Stewardship. Perhaps TTT will convey a bit of the stature of this heirship of Faramir.
morpheus by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 15th, 2002 08:26:39 PM
Yeah, what was the deal with him? He had this absolute monomania about what everything in Middle Earth represented and he would not budge. Hobbits as pygmies, I remember quite well. Strange boy. But harmless. Club Angband sounds fun, I must drop by sometime. The forces of darkness are always a scream.
The best thing... by BG	Apr 16th, 2002 01:03:58 AM
...about the anniversary release of the original Star Wars movies was that I got the chance to watch all 3, back-to-back, on the big screen. I believe this applies doubly (or even triply (but not trilogy :-)) to the LOTR movies. For the first time in history a single movie is being shown in three parts, spread over two years. I request, nay demand, that the first two installments be re-released at the same time as ROTK so that I may immerse myself PJ's ENTIRE work. Please. **** Now, Dufus, from what I've read, half your complaints about the movie stem from your misunderstanding what you've seen and the other half come from your twisted view of the world. Is there anything about the movie you like? Is there anything about the book you like?
In defense of Dufy by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 16th, 2002 11:41:34 AM
C'mon, don't you think you're being a little defensive? At least he makes a coherent point that people feel is worth arguing. You may disagree with him, but his opinion is valid. I think its perfectly clear he likes the book and parts of the film, but he loves pointing out perceived flaws. Having said that, I'm going to argue with you Dufy. Not with your point about the significance of Boromir, which is interesting, but ignores the political geography of Eriador and anywhere else north of the Gap of Rohan, but your summary of Sean Bean's portrayal. Bean portrayed a warrior soul uncomfortable with the expectations and responsibilities placed on him by a demanding and authoritarian father (IMHO), possibly paving the way for Faramir to be more comfortable and self-assured. The strength/vulnerability mix that Bean showed owes more to the Napoleonic-era Sharpe films than recent Hollywood "He'a a Brit, he can only play bad guys" casting.
TEST by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 16th, 2002 11:46:30 AM
crap, screwed up order again.
Nine hours of LOTR... by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 16th, 2002 12:49:49 PM
...in a cinema. Well, it would really be longer, because you'd need an intermission every so often, so you could peel yourself out of your seat and go and eat tasty snack foods and smoke the occasional fag. And then you could go back in and re-immerse yourself in it all. That would be very cool. I don't remember anyone doing that with Star Wars (they were all re-released within weeks of one another, but maybe they did it in some other part of the world). Oh, and Bjarki, as far as the movie goes, it would appear from various of my sources that the death of Legolas, son of Thranduil, would lead to mass fangirl suicides.
being constructive by DufusyteII	Apr 16th, 2002 06:07:47 PM
Please humor me if I consider my posting here to be part of the artistic process. As such, I try to post constructive criticism and elements that could be improved. I liked the film in general, but posting about what was done right is not as useflu as posting about what could still be improved. Since PJ will continue to re-cut, re-edit, re-hash, and re-release these films until his dying day, I'm sure he will be dutifully checking these TB's religiously to hear what Dufusyte has to say about everything throughout the course of the next several decades. ***** The film is largely commendable in many respects. I must admit, however, that it did not capture my heart as some films do, and on the third viewing, I actually found sitting for three hours to be a bit tedious. I have been musing at great length to figure out what the missing ingredient for me was. My conclusion at this point is that if the viewer has the book fresh in one's mind, then the film serves as a masterful visualization, but if the viewer does not have the book in mind, then there are certain holes in the film as a stand-alone work. It's kind of like the film "O Brother," which was an adaptation of the Odyssey set in the American South. If the viewer had Homer's epic fresh in the mind, then apparently it was delightful to see how the film paralleled the story. However, if the viewer did not have Homer fresh in the mind, then the film seemed like a rather unengaging series of haphazard adventures. I have talked with viewers who felt the same way about Fellowship, namely, they were unfamiliar with the book, and they found the film to be a somewhat unengaging series of adventures. I fear that I fit into that category of viewer myself. ***** But I cannot rest until I find the missing ingredient. Perhaps it was the music after all. Congrats to Shore for his Oscar, and certainly he did get lots and lots of things right, such as the absolutely perfect hobbiton music, which carries the film from Gandalf's entrance right through Bilbo's party. The Moria section was also good; Lothlorien had character, though, like Galadriel's performance, it was a bit over spooky; the Traveling music and Fighting music and Orc music was serviceable enough. What was missing, however, was the Music as Benign Omniscient Spirit theme which needs to pop up during the emotional turning points. The "Music as a Divine Sympathetic Spirit, Looking Down with Pity on the Plight of Men" theme. The boy choir comes close to this, and may have saved the day if it had been used in a couple more key scenes. Examples of what I am talking about is, of course, the wordless voice in Titanic, which accounts for 99% of that film's emotional bombshell, as well as the similar theme in Gladiator, which bestowed an emotional/spiritual element to that film which helps lend the film a touch of profundity. ***** Fellowship has the potential for mega emotional/spiritual impact on the audience, but that potential was largely unrealized. Really, I think that if the boy choir theme were used in a couple turning points, it might have opened the floodgates to the profounder side of the film, because it would introduce another character into the film, namely, Music as character, specifically, Music as an All-Provident Spirit Watching the Plight of Man with Tearful Eye. Key scenes where this musical theme (Boy choir will suffice) should be employed would be: during the silhouette shot of Frodo, Sam, & Gandalf first leaving the shire. Mind you, that shot might have to be extended, with the music kicking in after Gandalf has said his somewhat comical line about Sam being put to good use. But it is at turning points like that, when the characters are vulnerably stepping into the unknown, that the film would do well to make room for Music, the Muse, to raise its head and make a soft spoken comment, a sympathetic lament without words, to see the travellers on their way. Just as Galadriel's vial will be "a light in dark places," there also needs to be a musical counterpart: a Muse who will be a Consoling Sound in dark places, even if none of the characters can hear it. This Divine Muse, who watches the film along side us, needs to pipe up in the darkest and most piteous moments, and whisper to us, in its simple tones, "I am here too. I am beside you. I see all this, and I am watching closely. And even if I do not intervene, I am moved with pity, and write all your sorrows in my heart." ***** But to put this kind of a Divine Muse into a film really depends, ultimately, on the personality of the director himself. I mean, a director can only put into a film what he himself is. So if a man does not actually have a sense of this Divine Muse in his own life, he can hardly paste one into a film he makes. Granted, the boy choir serves as such as Muse, so the seeds are there. I must admit, however, that even in the few points where the Muse was used, it did not seem quite right. For example, at Gandalf's fall, we had the muse sing its song, we had the slow motion shots, we had the very effective silencing of all the ambient sounds except a few clanking arrow strikes, but somehow it seemed almost like a parody of a touching moment, as opposed to actually being a touching moment. There is a skill to filming/editing every kind of scene: a way to shoot a Fight Scene, a way to shoot a Romantic Scene, a way to shoot a Horror/Suspense scene. PJ is certainly well accomplished at all these types of filming/filmmaking. However, shooting a Divine scene is yet another skill, and not necessarily every director can pull it off. It takes a tremendous amount of sincerity. It requires the film to bare its heart in all honesty; some people will be profoundly moved by it, while some people might take the occasion to sneer at it. It is like life in general: if someone opens their heart, they can make a very profound bond with another, but they also risk being deeply wounded. But by playing it safe, and never opening one's heart, one never risks the chance of being wounded, but at the cost of never establishing a profound bond with anyone which can only be achieved by truly opening one's heart. In this sense, Fellowship seemed to be somewhat emotionally guarded, prefering to jest, and to sneer at itself rather than to open its heart. If you remember the disaster that was "Batman Forever" (or whichever one had Clooney in it), the problem with that film was that it hated itself, and frequently conveyed to the audience, "This film is pathetic, and so are you for watching it." This message dripped from Uma's (Poison Ivy's) every word, and from many other sources as well. Fellowship has alot of this self-loathing as well, though it is much more subtle, and hence does not patently destroy the film like Batman Forever did. But it is still there. Many things in Fellowship are actually subtle parodies of themselves. Examples? Well, let's start with PJ's burp into the camera. Then there is the unveiling of Saruman's Bowling Ball, er Palantir. -the pre game rally of the Orc Rugby Team. The wise crack about smoking the hobbit's weed. The geriatric kung-fu scene. Even the first shot of Saruman, lifting up his hand wearing the newly forged Ring, it half sneering at itself as a parody of some B-movie. PJ keeps just about every element of the film on the borderline between sincerity and self-parody. It is a guarded film, afraid to be honest, afraid to put its heart on the line, but prefering to cloak itself in the ambiguity of self mockery. This is very typical of PJ's films to date, and Fellowship follows in that tradition. It is really a factor of personality more than anything, so there is little that can be done about it. An artist can only produce what they already have inside themself. When PJ believes in himself, his films will believe in themselves too. Perhaps Fellowship's success has given him the confidence to make a sincere and confident TTT.
erratum by DufusyteII	Apr 16th, 2002 06:15:23 PM
"Even the first shot of Saruman" should read: "shot of Sauron." (but you alredy knew that)
Miami... by BG	Apr 16th, 2002 08:34:58 PM
...well done!! You are truly 'The Lord Of The Talk Back'. * Alice- when ROTJ was re-released here (NZ), some cinemas were still showing the first two. So by moving from one cinema to another, over the course of a day, I was able to watch all three on the big screen (something I've wanted to do ever since ROTJ was released originally). ** Dufus- I guess the thing that slightly annoys me about your posts is that all your opinions are stated as absolutes, eg, you say "Fellowship has the potential for mega emotional/spiritual impact on the audience, but that potential was largely unrealized." You state that as if it was a fact when it is merely your opinion. Not only that but, in this forum at least, your opinions are very much in the minority. Your posts are obviously written to tie in with your idea that PJ comes to these TB's and reads your posts in order to see how he can improve his film making techniques. You obviously have a very high opinion of your movie analysis skills if you think one of the top directors in the world would use the anonymous rants posted on an Internet fan site as a guide to how he should make a movie. I know it's a personal question, but I'd love to know what you do for a living. Did you want to be a movie director/writer? Or does your interest in movies only relate to LOTR?
what I do for a living by DufusyteII	Apr 16th, 2002 08:54:28 PM
Let's just say that I'm not particularly good at what I do for a living, and I'm glad I don't have a bunch of people posting about it. But please humor me if I think that some of the lotr crew do check up on these TB's once in a while, and really it would be foolish of them not to, because the internet provides a very unique and useful forum for feedback from the average and not-so-average movie goer. If I seem to overstate all my positions, it is because subtlety is easily lost in these text-based forums, and in order to make a point you are best advised to paint it boldly. Also remember that I personally am a dullard who needs to have things spelled out boldly for me, so I do the same in kind, so that my fellow dullards can follow along with me. I apologize to all the quick people out there for whom my postings much be like so many head beatings over with a stick. But as I am fond of saying, "You can never beat somebody over the head with a stick too much."
Dufus... by BG	Apr 16th, 2002 09:53:55 PM
...fair enough. Now that I better understand where you're coming from, I'll try to be more tolerant in future. When TTT is released I'll keep an eye out for any Dufusyte inspired changes in PJ's directing style ;-)
Whip-tash!!!... by BG	Apr 17th, 2002 12:18:50 AM
...that's the sound of Elanor's Balrog whip slicing it's way across Dufusyte's buttocks. Dufus, I believe you've just (as they say) been 'schooled' ;-)
The price of being an artist by DufusyteII	Apr 17th, 2002 02:15:37 AM
I'm sure PJ is a great guy, but maybe that's the point. In order to produce true art you have to be a stock raving madman, a rude tempermental artiste freak, slave to a host of addictions, surrounded by a sea of shipwrecked relationships, and doomed to a tragically short lifespan. That's an artist for ya. Everybody else is just some conformist bourgeois wannabe. How can a well adjusted man expect to make a great film? I advise PJ to hit the booze and start swinging at people like Crowe does.
Now that we're back in sequence, by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 17th, 2002 05:18:28 AM
I'm reposting an abridged version of my comment from yesterday. Lay off Dufy. C'mon, don't you think you're all being a little defensive? At least he makes a coherent point that people feel is worth arguing. You may disagree with him, but his opinion is valid. I think its perfectly clear he likes the book and parts of the film, but he loves pointing out perceived flaws.
Oh Flaps by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 17th, 2002 05:24:22 AM
someday I'll get to post in order
Hmm Hm .... ZOIKS! You guys are still here ? by Skyway Moaters	Apr 17th, 2002 09:33:04 PM
HOORAY! gotta go read; be right back... {;-0
SpacePerve... by Mithril	Apr 18th, 2002 05:03:08 AM
agree wholeheartedly with your view on Boromir in the movie. I mean, it's even mentioned in the movie and books themselves. Remember Boromir talking to Aragorn about wanting to help his father, but things being so hard and him and others losing hope. And in the books of course it's said that though Denethor loved Boromir more than Faramir, the ironic thing was that Boromir was not at all like Denethor was (and probably wanted his sons to be), while Faramir was very much like his father. ***And dammit, the TB order is hosed again!
I'm here to kick ass and chew lembas by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 18th, 2002 06:11:10 AM
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I have no idea what I did to hose the order. *** Alice, I followed that link and found this http://www.anime.net/~laine/ Parody/Lotr/boredom.html (space inserted) fell about laughing, which is not good when you're on the phone at work. Thanksfor the giggle.
>sniff< >sniff< ...Damn, what smells like Old Fart around here? by Pallando Blue	Apr 19th, 2002 01:00:47 PM
Heh heh, oops, sorry morG. ;~D Happy Birthday! * Man, what a week--work reared up from behind and smacked me in the head with a 2 x 6. Beat the rhymin right outta me, I'm afraid. But wanted to take a quick scan for new limericks! That's some GREAT STUFF there! I've been L-ing my A O all morning. Maybe, sigh, by Monday I'll be able to hang around again... And read some of the, shall we say, more "dramatic" of the posts, instead of just the fun skimmables. (Believe it or not, I've got an opinion or three, and not just on the many merits of dirty jokes!) But maybe not. Yikes. * Thought y'all would enjoy knowing that elfkiller (now #10) isn't just effin up LOTR TBs--for some damn reason he's effin with the new SW one! At least just stretching it out, and yelling at Harry (such a burning love!). He's a Renaissance nimrod. *** And again, Happy Birthday ya sooty old briquette butt! I'll try to hit the Club before the end of Happy Hour! (free order of six-alarm "Lorien Wings" with purchase of basket of "Pointy Chips(c)")
HARRY! YOO HOO! FIX THE ORDER! AND MORE LOTR NEWS PLEASE! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 20th, 2002 08:00:52 AM
Who says I'm a demanding guest? Oh, and morGY, I was merely discussing the geopolitical alignment of Middle Earth in the Third Age with that guy! The parking lot was just quieter than the bar, and... oh well. Most unlike me, as I'm normally more of a pervy hobbit fancier myself. Did the Boss play "I'm On Fire"? It's my fave but I may have been out of the building... As for Cinefex, hopefully I'll pick up a copy today, but I've been dissappointed everywhere I've looked so far - time to hit the specialty stores. Or maybe I just can't get it in the UK, but since the title definitely rings a bell, that doesn't sound right.
Me too, me too by Conan_the_Humble	Apr 20th, 2002 11:24:13 AM
MorG, don't forget me too. I occasionally drop in for a pint of proper 1420 and a heady discussion of all things TOLKEIN. I just wish I was as insightful and eloquent as Dufussy. I just adore these people who ignore the good professor's own thoughts and find new meanings for his Works. I know here's a new thought. Maybe LOTR is an allegory of World War 2... They're so clever to be able to describe the TRUE meaning of the work, other than the fact that the entire work was designed to allow TOLKIEN to make use of his Philogical talents and interests, ie his delight in creating languages and appropriate settings for them. Alas I must content myself with the odd raping, pillaging and decapitation, oh and I love limericks as well, it's just a pity that with the amount of 1420 I have consumed I have no short term memory and can never remember the damn things, mutter, mutter, curse, curse. Cheers.
Girl sees film; confirms all of Dufusyte's theories. by DufusyteII	Apr 21st, 2002 05:12:51 AM
You may recall I mentioned a girl who had not seen Fellowship because she thought it would be too violent. Well she went to see it, and generally liked it, though she claimed that the characters did not involve her emotionally, and to a certain extent she did not care what happened to them. I must admit that I was sadly happy to hear this, since it confirmed my own experience of the film. ******* Moreover, since she had never read the books, I decided to survey her to see if 80% of movie-goers had no clue what the deal was with Arwen's immortality. Girl in question identified Arwen as an Elf, and stated that she got the impression that elves were Immortal (that's Two Correct so far, for those of you keeping score at home), and as for the love/marriage/immortality thing, it was her impression that when Arwen gave the brooch to Aragorn that she was giving her immortality to him, and that she would die and he would live forever. She got this impression because of Aragorn's line where he says, "You cannot give this to me," and Arwen replies, "I give it to whomever I please." After I clarified that Elves lose their immortality if they wed a human, but the man does not become immortal, she asked, "Then what was the deal with the brooch?" to which I really do not have a clue, since it has been a long time since I have read the books, and my only guess (from seeing the movie), is that the brooch symbolizes Arwen's love, or perhaps more specifically, that it was a Pledge of Marriage, kind of like an engagement ring, such that she was formally promising herself to Aragorn. Uh, is that close?
Happy birthday morGy. by BG	Apr 21st, 2002 06:51:57 PM
A great night was had by all, even though I did have to put up with The Boss' unwelcome advances at one stage. Can you tell Moaters to return the gold sequinned dress I lent him? He can keep the thong ;-) *** I watched Fellowship again for the umpteenth time over the weekend and I noticed something I had never noticed before. When Frodo asks Aragorn if he could destroy the ring, the ring whispers "Aragorn... Posses us." Now I'm sure most of you perceptive tailenders noticed this ages ago, but it just goes to show how much detail there is to absorb.
Ingold's wife????? by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 22nd, 2002 06:48:25 AM
I don't remember anything after the Entdraught made with real ents. 'cept this morning I have to trim my toenails with a chainsaw. And congrats on the dwarf-tossing, I love party games. Anyway you might like to know that me an' a late arriving teapot caught two gatecrashers (Pud and Shaggins) trying to spike the punch with ruffies and spanish fly, so we pinched their noses, gave 'em their own medicine and tossed them into the uruk breeding pens. Squeal little piggy! *** Okay, so I'm on point for the next TB (feels like the tunnelfighting scene in Platoon where they give the poor schmuck a flashlight and a handgun). What's the best thing for seeing off trolls, apart from Farmer Maggot? Hmm plan forming...
test by The MasterBaiter	Apr 22nd, 2002 06:56:44 AM

Hey, that Mearas said she was eighteen by Pallando Blue	Apr 22nd, 2002 11:20:48 AM
Or hinted so, maybe. Sure looked eighteen. And sure behaved older 'n that! (Besides, being "gifted" so, and I mean SO, limits one's options. Lurtz, poor guy, knew what that's like.) >ahem< Anyhoozle, someone oughta crown me cause I've been on the throne all morning. Man that Firstborn just tunnels RIGHT on through. Though it mighta been the Balrogette-fresh hot sauce. (And y'all thought the tone couldn't be lowered any further! There's ALWAYS room.) * Gotta disappear for most of this week again, but I'll drop in toward the end to collect up all the lim'rix so far (just the M.E.-centric ones, not the post-handle in-jokes)... Don't stop now, you're all about to be copied and thumbtacked to workstations all over Weta! (with any luck!) Now now, no stage fright allowed... ;~) * A Gondorian girl wanted Pippin * To show her what he was equippin'. * "'Half-ling's' too kind! * Though he worked up a grind, * I thought he'd just gotten the tip in!"
C'mon, one last week of em! Do your worst! by Pallando Blue	Apr 22nd, 2002 12:48:41 PM
The more Hobbits that used the damn thing, * The more Sauron's poor arsehole would sting. * He cried in dismay, * "I swear, I'm not gay! * So stop putting your finger in my ring!"
Pallando, you asked for it! by BG	Apr 22nd, 2002 09:12:10 PM
When the limericks begin to offend * And to morGy, birthday wishes we send * And Elanor lass, * Kicks Dufy
You won't worst, I'll give you worst! by BG	Apr 22nd, 2002 10:26:03 PM
In bed, Aragorn
You want the worst! You can't handle the worst! by BG	Apr 23rd, 2002 12:35:58 AM
On her wedding night Eowyn cried * About his manhood Faramir had lied * When expecting a prod * From a huge rod * A little prick was all that arrived!
Elanor, BG... by Mithril	Apr 23rd, 2002 03:31:12 AM
Elanor, I always thought the jewel Arwen gives Aragorn is the Evenstar. It's mentioned in the books. And the jewel is distinctly star-shaped as well. I think it's just a show of her love. When he says she "cannot give it to him", I do think he's talking about her giving up her immortality to live with him, not giving her immortality to him. One could argue that Arwen's prayer over the dying Frodo had her give over her immortality to him, causing him not to die, and leading in the end to Frodo taking her place on the ship from the Grey Havens. *Have to say though that in Arwen's case I don't think it's as much a question of an elf losing her immortality when she marries. All the elves in Elrond's line dating back to Beren and Luthien's union have had to choose at some point in their lives whether they will live as elves or as men. Now, Elrond chose to remain an elf, while his brother became human and the first king of Numenor. Elrond wants his kids to choose being an elf, since he doesn't want to lose them. I think he's especially protective of Arwen that way, since she reminds him of his Celebrian, who he's already lost. That's the main reason he's so huffy towards Aragorn in the talk with Gandalf in FOTR and why he opposes the union. Over-protective father alert! BG: did notice the Ring calling to Aragorn. Funny, I always thought it called him by saying "Aragorn. Elessar..." You could be right, though. We'll have to see if the DVD's English-for-the-hearing-impair ed subtitles can clear this up. **Oh, and limericks coming at some point. Just have to get inspired...
morGy and Miami by BG	Apr 23rd, 2002 10:52:30 PM
I think, Miami, you mean it's the elfstone Arwen gives Aragorn. He wears it when he enters Gondor and so the people call him Elessar (sp?) or Elfstone. This fulfills the prophecy that he shall be known by that name. I think that's right. I'll have to check the book.
pendant, stuff... by Mithril	Apr 24th, 2002 03:57:26 AM
First off, sorry for hosing the order, but I plead innocence since I didn't do anything in my post to cause the hosing (no neverending words or stuff)! Anyhoo, BG, the Elfstone is totally different. It's big, it's green (from what I can remember) and it's got an eagle form around the jewel, so it ain't the jewel Arwen gave Aragorn in FOTR. MorGoth, as for the Evenstar, I can't remember which book I read it in (after the film I started reading all the books again, including the Unfinished Tales and everything). But I do remember it being said that Arwen was called the Evenstar of her people because of her beauty, but she also carried a beautiful clear jewel that was also named Evenstar. *Lastly, just got my first look at the packaging for all the DVD box sets! Holy ringwraith on a stick these things are cool! The 2-disc set has the last poster image with Frodo in the center, but it's darker than the poster and devilishly cool. The 4-disc set is unbelievable. The normal set with the book covers: fab. But the collector's set with the book-cover set, the Argonath and the package is out of this world. Me want it now!!! The package is beautiful and partly see-through, so you see the book-cover set and the Argonath bookends on both sides of it inside. Holy Proudfoot on a stick I'm excited! *Okay, calming down now...
Evenstar by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 24th, 2002 08:24:31 AM
Hello there! Mithril, yes, Arwen is the Evenstar herself, but she also carries a white jewel (which, incidentally, she gives to Frodo in ROTK, not Aragorn any earlier.) The jewel itself didn't have a name that I remember. How the movie will do this I know not. The Elfstone is indeed green and eagle-shaped, and I can't remember when Aragorn gets it, because I'm an airhead. It may be along with the banner, but for some reason Lorien is popping into my head. Oh well. Oh, and the limericks... well, they ought to be caged and tranquilised. That's all I'm saying.
Aragorn's Jewellery Box by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 24th, 2002 12:30:42 PM
Do you think it plays either "Love Story" or "Lara's Theme"? Cos he's racking up a fair few shiny trinkets at this rate. I think the jewel he wears on his brow is a different one again to the Elfstone, which I am fairly sure doesn't show up till The Two Towers. But I can't remember off the top of my head, and don't have the books to hand. And this doesn't change the fact that Arwen, in the book, still has her own white gem, which she gives to Frodo (very strange place, Middle Earth, chicks give the guys jewellery. Presumably the guys give the girls silk boxer shorts and golf clubs. But never mind...)
FotR is a great movie. by Hawq	Apr 24th, 2002 01:26:41 PM
Sorry to butt in to your tail-end party, but I have a couple of questions. I like the ideas in those limericks, (like the reforging of Aragorn) but the meter sounds all wrong when read aloud- like there's too many syllables. Is there a rule for the number of syllables in each line of a limerick, or is the rule to use whatever sounds right? *** Anyway, back to the movie... Does everyone here think this movie gets better and better with each viewing? I've seen it seven times, and it definitely was better each time! The more recent ones seem to have a better print, too- like there's more color saturation. Although, maybe it's because I saw the latest ones on smaller screens. Does the screen size makes a difference in color saturation? The DVD's should be flawless, since they will be transferred directly from the digital files. Speaking of digital movies, does anyone know how to find out if there is local theater that has a digital projector? I've heard it's an amazing viewing experience. I know it's almost a sin to mention this movie here, but I'd like to see the new Star Wars in an all-digital theater in Portland, Oregon.
limericks by Mithril	Apr 25th, 2002 02:17:28 AM
Ok, two limericks coming up: "There was a farmer called Maggot, who told his rude neighbours to gag it. 'I may have been nice to them hobbit boys once or twice. It doesn't mean you can call me a faggot!'" * "The King of Gondor all a-flutter behaves, comparing his jewels to those of mere knaves. 'With this flashy ring of Barahir, the Elessar and the Elendilmir, I look like a pimp at the Glittering Caves!'" This last limerick will lead nicely to my next post: What's with Aragorn and all this jewelry?
Aragorn: victim of Middle Earth QVC? by Mithril	Apr 25th, 2002 03:06:49 AM
Honestly, the boy's racking up some serious bling-bling action here. First, there's the Elessar, whether it's the original (brought by Gandalf to Galadriel) or a later faximile by Celebrimbor, it still imprisons the light of the sun, is coloured after the tree leaves, and set "within a great brooch of silver in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings". It's wielder also has healing powers, so again "the healing hands of the King" are in effect. Galadriel gave it to Celebrian, who gave it to Arwen. Arwen handed it over back to grandma, so Aragorn would get it from her. *Then there's the Elendilmir, worn by all Kings of Arnor instead of a crown, it was "a single white gem ... bound on their brows with a silver fillet". After the original (which wouldn't even turn invisible when Isildur put the ring on), set in a mithril fillet, was lost when Isildur died, all his heirs until Aragorn used another jewel of the same name and appearance, though not quite as powerful. When Aragorn and Gimli find the original (along with the chain that Isildur kept the Ring on), Aragorn gets the original. He wears the original "on high days in the North Kingdom", but otherwise wore the second Elendilmir as his crown. Though some people (such as Robert Foster in his "Complete Guide to Middle-earth") say that Aragorn gave the second one to Sam, that jewel was "The Star of the Dunedain" and explained in the "Unfinished Tales" to be a different heirloom. The Elendilmir is always worn on the brow. Then there's the ring of Barahir (also visible in the film). Beren's father Barahir got it from Finrod Felagund after saving him. Can't find the passage describing it now, but I seem to remember it having a green gem in a frame of two trees (silver and gold) and the figure of a snake. Phew, and add to that all the other countless heirlooms... *As for the Evenstar, can't track down the passage now. Dammit, I know I've read it somewhere! Unless I'm just logically inferring it... Anyway, I believe it is mentioned twice in the book. First at the end of the chapter "Many meetings", as Frodo describes Aragorn, sitting close to Arwen: "his dark cloak was thrown back, and he seemed to be clad in elven-mail, and a star shone on his breast." Now I admit that this could be some other heirloom too, but I'd like to think that Arwen has given him the jewel at this point. Later on, in chapter "Many partings" (note the similarity in chapter titles), Arwen gives the jewel to Frodo as a sign that he will take her place on the ship, but also to wear "in memory of Elfstone and Evenstar". The jewel is described thus: "a white gem like a star that lay upon her breast hanging upon a silver chain". As Arwen, in the movie at least, gives the jewel to Aragorn as a sign of her love to remember her by and to protect him, he may very well have given it back to her as they met again (no need to remember or be protected, as they are now together and the war is over), and Arwen then passes it on a while later to Frodo. Now I could swear that I've read of the jewel also being called Evenstar somewhere. But if we can't find it after some further study, I may concede that maybe it's just a subconscious inferrence from the Elfstone-Evenstar connection, the star shape of the jewel, and from it being an identifying mark of Arwen. Hmm... Anyhoo, so ends the big post about all that glitters.
limericks ahoy... by Mithril	Apr 25th, 2002 03:24:33 AM
Ahh, and my final limerick (at least for now): "Right in the centre of mighty Entwood, the old and powerful Fangorn stood. 'All those other hobbits grew when they drank my entbrew, but alas it didn't help Elijah Wood!'" Oh, and Pallando, any sign of Alatar recently?
Bling bling! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 25th, 2002 07:24:06 AM
So, we're getting quite close to being able to inventory the crown jewels of King Elessar at this point. I make it, so far, two Elendilmirs, one Elessar, one star jewel worn upon the breast (the Star of the Dunedain?), and Arwen's white jewel. Throw in a palantir or two and the ring of Barahir (I did wonder what ring he was wearing in the movie! How cool it was included!), as well as Anduril, and he's got quite the little hoard going on there! Am I missing anything? Anyhoo, yeah, I'm doing a bit better with my SW game face, Elanor, because I am going with a posse to a midnight screening, which should be quite funny, especially as I intend to be quite drunk. Even funnier to think that due to time zones, that I, Alice In Wonderland, will be seeing this puppy before practically any SW troll you can name! As Edna Krabappel would say, "Ha!"
Alice: Yes, there's more! The Sceptre of Annuminas by Vanyar	Apr 25th, 2002 01:00:06 PM
AiW, Greetings! Man, it has been WAAAY too long since I posted here (more than a year). But, retiring from one job, moving, getting another job, and then moving again can truly eat your time. Anywho, I just wanted to drop in and see who was here. My good buddy morGoth said the Tailend TB was great, so I thought I'd just jump right in. Re: Aragorn Elessar Telcontar's crown jewels, there is one more: the Sceptre of Annuminas. It was the symbol of office for the Lords of Andunie (western Numenor). It was saved from Numenor's downfall and brought to Endor where it was carried by the Kings of Arnor. After Arnor was divided, it was eventually entrusted to Elrond (along with many other heirlooms). He brought it with him to Aragorn's coronation. Well, don't want to get too long-winded first time out of the gate, so I'll close for now. But I'll be back very soon. Sure is great to be sharing views once again. Namarie, Mellyn!
Thanks Guys! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 25th, 2002 01:20:37 PM
Hokay, so there's the Sceptre of Annuminas - and actually, how many palantiri? Is the one that Sauron has the Minas Ithil one? Cos I'll presume that got crushed when the Barad Dur takes its header.
Alice, re: Palantiri by Vanyar	Apr 25th, 2002 03:23:48 PM
AiW, there were 7 palantiri....as in
Tower Hills by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 25th, 2002 03:43:39 PM
So, there was this palantir, sat there, looking West, in the Tower Hills? I was kind of under the impression that nobody lived there by the time of the WotR. Did it just sit there? Nobody tried to pinch it? But it does sound like there were four palantiri still in ME at the end of the Third Age, including the one that goes down with Sauron, which is probably the Minas Ithil stone. Am I right? Or have I completely misunderstood? (And I can't get over the notion that there's just this palantir sat around, presumably in some ruin somewhere, on the borders of the Shire, that is effectively a radio to God, and nobody discovers it. That's completely mad.)
Welcome back Vanyar. by BG	Apr 25th, 2002 09:49:12 PM
I have just one question (the same as elanor)... what did you think of the film?
Actually morGy... by BG	Apr 25th, 2002 10:47:45 PM
...I'm afraid you're completely WRONG! I have it on very good authority that the large glistening green jewel Aragorn wore when he entered Gondor wasn't a jewel at all! It was in fact the result of an enormous Aragorn sneeze (no tissues in the wild, I'm afraid). Truth became legend, legend became myth, and some things that should be forgotten were, or at least changed to a more romantic story (Aragorn wasn't very happy about being named after a bogie). ;-)
morGoth... by Mithril	Apr 26th, 2002 02:55:36 AM
I've had the Evenstar thing in my mind for at least a couple of years now, so no, I don't think the movie had anything to do with it. My memory, always flaky, is another thing... And yes, Arwen giving up her place on the ships is different from the gift of the jewel, but they are so nicely put together in "Many partings" that I like to think of the added symbolism. Personally, I've had a hell of a job arguing with my father about the prayer Arwen says at the ford as Frodo gets weaker. He's convinced Arwen hands over her immortality and ship place to Frodo right there and then, I think it's just a prayer. Any thoughts? *And ahh, the TB is a month old. Bless. *As for the palantir, I've always been fascinated with which palantir are the weak ones and which are the strong ones. Any thoughts? Also, as Pippin manages to get the palantir in exactly the right position (the poles pointing the right way, the sides pointing the right way), do you consider it a mere fluke, or was something guiding his hand?
oh, and... by Mithril	Apr 26th, 2002 03:19:24 AM
no morGoth, I don't think Aragorn gave it back to her right away (of course he's wearing it on the quest). I'm just saying that if PJ wants the handing over to Frodo to happen the same way it did in the book, then Aragorn could hand the jewel over when Arwen arrives in Gondor for the marriage and coronation. "Here you go honey, it really brought me good luck. And whenever I looked at it, I'd think of you." *Still stand by my thought that I've read about the Evenstar somewhere. Of course I could be getting that info from some secondary literature, so it may not be trusted. But my main point with the original post was to point out that the jewel itself is certainly mentioned in the book (named or not), as it is, and not just made up by PJ and company. Even if Tolkien never named it (and still going through my books on that one), and though it isn't made clear what the "star" that shone on Aragorn's chest was, I think every reader has the right to interpret things that are not clearly refuted. If someone of greater insight (looking at you here, Vanyar) can tell us exactly what the star Aragorn is wearing is, that's great. If not, I withhold the right to interpret it my way. Heck, I like to think of the five Istari being Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Pallando and Alatar (just because I want the full number accounted for), even though they are two different stories. Nice to see mellon Vanyar back. **Great Rosie/Gaffer/Sam limerick, by the way, Elanor.
Thank You for the Warm Welcom Back ! by Vanyar	Apr 26th, 2002 10:29:10 AM
I am deeply touched y
BLA HA HA HA HA!! Oh, and howdy Vanyar! by Pallando Blue	Apr 26th, 2002 11:02:14 AM
Oh man, this poetry is friggin priceless. * Vanyar, our own Tolkien search engine! Welcome back to the fold! You know, with just a handful of exceptions, even the early days of Tolkien TBs are these days far less ugly and contentious than years ago, when you chose sanity and bolted. And the occasional squawking jackass is SO silly and ridiculous now, they're quite easily laughed at and ignored. The trolls are weak, mellon, so please hang out more often! * Now then, hopefully by next week I'll have more time to join in the REAL conversation. For now though, let's go one more weekend of strained meter, groaner puns, and dirty rhymes! Cause before I collect and send em (and yep, saw all the edits and hosed entries--and the Bath Song!) let me get a poll to the poets. I was planning on just lumping em all together in no particular order, stamped "From the Tailend" as a group credit... but would you prefer individual credit? Y'all's call! The "package" aka "limerick e-bomb" goes out Monday! Meanwhile... *** The "waif-look" would always enthrall 'im, * So when Frodo first set eyes on Gollum, * Despite being tricksy, * With THAT anorexy * Frodo knew right away that he'd ball 'im!
There once was an orc from Nantucket... by Conan_the_Humble	Apr 27th, 2002 07:45:35 AM
I always scan the LOTR Talkbacks MorGy, even those that are over a month old. There the only ones that really interest me, apart from King Conan ones of course... Anyway here's my pathetic effort at adding to the limerick fun and ames, it's an oldy but I've got absolutely nothing, 'there once was an orc from Nantucket, whose dick was so long he could suck it, he said with grin, as he wiped off his chin, if my arse was a cu*t, I could fuck it... Just thought I'd add to the intellectual atmosphere around here with that little gem. (Get it, the whole gem theme? Ah forget it...) Cheers.
ahh, the tailend... by Mithril	Apr 29th, 2002 03:37:30 AM
First off, thanks for the answer, Vanyar. Do you think this is the "Star of Dunedain" that Aragorn gives to Sam several years later? Methinks it would be interesting. *Elanor: sex scene? Oh, I suppose you're talking about the famous cut scene from the old "Arwen goes to Helm's Deep" script version for the 2 movie LOTR, where Aragorn and Arwen celebrate their victory by slipping off to the woods for a quickie, not noticing that they're actually hiding behind a horny huorn. That was classic, especially with all the "woody" jokes. And Aragorn's cry of "My sword has been reforged!" morGoth, great. Now I can tell my dad he's not alone in his ponderings. But I gotta say, I don't think Tolkien claimed that Bilbo and Frodo would become immortal just by getting to go across the sea. I believe the point is that a select few mortals can cross there and live out their lives. Their lives will be prolonged indefinitely, but at some point they will have to decide that now it's time for them to die. But they'll live many long, painless, content years before that. Now that Vanyar is back and the Tailend is still here, here's a question I've been wondering about: When does Celeborn leave Middle-earth? All we know is that he will leave some time before Arwen comes to Lorien to die. Does he leave before Galadriel to prepare for her coming? Is he included (though not mentioned) in the group of elves that leave with Galadriel, Elrond et al.? Or does he stay behind to watch over the diminishing Lorien and all the remaining elves there until the magic of the place is all but gone? I'm thinking the last, but who knows. It's just annoying that the issue is never cleared up. Also, will Galadriel have to stay on the islands (as a former rebel it has been suggested that though she can go across the sea, she won't be allowed to live on the mainland) or will her actions during the War (and her overcoming the test) act as leverage in her favour so she can live on the mainland? And if she is barred to the islands, will Celeborn opt to live in virtual exile with her? Ahh, the questions I have... *As for the limericks, either way is fine, though it would be quite nice for people to get personal credit. Anyway, it's just out TB names, not our real ones, so those feeling embarassed about their dirty limericks won't have to feel too embarassed either.
Limericks by Conan_the_Humble	Apr 29th, 2002 06:41:41 AM
Guess, Harry isn't such a Poetry fan after all eh? Oh well, when's some new LOTR news coming out? Surely an online trailer is due soon? Cheers.
Spin the TalkBack! HEY THERE! FIX THE ORDER! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 29th, 2002 07:22:05 AM
Thanks for answering my palantir questions earlier, guys. Anyway, where the hell will this post end up? It's a magical mystery!
A brooch made of purest green by Buck Teeth Soh	Apr 29th, 2002 09:55:03 AM
I always wondered what happened to that prop - go Percy! Blackadder is still some of the best TV ever. *** Galadriel's love life was boring * So she left Celeborn to his snoring * Climbed down from her tree * Rode swiftly to Bree * Spent the night with some Hobbits, a-whoring!
Celeborn and the Seven and a Half Months by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 29th, 2002 10:06:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that Celeborn continues to hang out in Lothlorien for a wee while after Gladdy packs her bags. But naturally age and decay comes there (she packed her Elven Ring also, seemingly, and anyway it had used all of it's go's after the One Ring jumped the shark). But I don't know how long for. Anyway, saw it again on Saturday. I keep saying it will be the last time, but I just can't keep away... anyhoo, how long is it till TTT now? Am I right in believing that it's only seven and a half months?
IT'S AWAY! Alice's long nightmare is over! by Pallando Blue	Apr 29th, 2002 01:10:59 PM
You can come out from under the bed now, Alice, as the limericks have been delivered. Of course, that doesn't mean people HAVE to stop makin em... :) *** Yes, I got em all, even the newest ones. Yes, every limerick has been individually credited to its author. Yes, every edit made it in there. (Yes, I closed with the Bath Song!) And finally yes, it took me the whole frigging morning to anthologize all that out of this ever-hosed TB, and proof it, and add a quick note explaining this crime against language and decency. :) So, I gotta run, back later this week I HOPE!
Pallando... by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 29th, 2002 02:20:05 PM
No, no, I'm okay, just limericks make me a little anxious. It could have been worse. It could have been puns. (Shudders)
test by BG	Apr 29th, 2002 05:59:48 PM

Maybe some bad limericks will fix the post order. by BG	Apr 29th, 2002 06:17:00 PM
Boromir greeted Pippin with scorn * "Let's continue your lessons this morn. * First I will show, * you how to blow. * Put your lips round the end of my horn."
Days of May by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 30th, 2002 09:35:45 AM
Anyone out there capable of making head nor tail of the order here?
The Order Is FIXED!!! by AliceInWonderlnd	Apr 30th, 2002 09:36:49 AM
Break out the champagne!
The Order? by Conan_the_Humble	Apr 30th, 2002 11:20:53 AM
Continuing the discussion re Gems and what not from earlier, Alice, you'd probably NEED a Palantir to work out the TB order. I posted yesterday and it's 4 down from the top... Anyhoo, when's some new LOTR news coming out? It's time for a new TB on LOTR. One possibly not involving Limericks. I feel terribly embarrassed when I see everyone else come up with this clever poetry... The best the Barbarian in me can manage is getting something to rhyme with Crom!!! Cheers.
Interesting thought morGy. by BG	Apr 30th, 2002 06:19:07 PM
I'm sure that you won't be seeing any actors or extras of African or West Indian descent. The reason for this is that NZ has practically no African or West Indian ethnic populations. If PJ(me) was going to portray the Haradrim as racially different to the other men in ME, he would have to use Maori or Polynesian actors and extras. I doubt that this will be the case because I can't remember any report during the filming about scenes shot with only dark skinned actors/extras. All the advertisements and media reports called for tall, slim and fair extras, and if you didn't fit that description you could be an Orc (possibly). I don't remember any call for purely dark skinned actors/extras. The only Maori actors listed in the cast both play Orcs (Lurtz and Ugluk). I guess it may be possible that some extras could be made-up to look racially different and that most of their forces could be computer generated. I guess that if the Haradrim are not portrayed as dark skinned it will be for purely practical reasons rather than racial/PC reasons.
Vote for LOTR on MTV by Frodo's Girl	May 1st, 2002 01:46:44 AM
I think everyone should show support and vote for the Fellowship for the MTV movie awards. You can vote as much as you want!! Here is the link: http://www.mtv.com/onair/movie awards/ma02/vote/bestmale.jhtm l
Yup by Buck Teeth Soh	May 1st, 2002 09:31:44 AM
just voted for the Bow Guy and the awesome forced breakdancing scene between Ganders and Saruman (but only cos they didn't list the mudbath stickfight from Brotherhood of the Wolf). *** Extras casting. Playing an orc was probably loads more fun, and anyway it looks like they imported some Swedes for that Lorien ambush scene.
My Limericks by Conan_the_Humble	May 1st, 2002 10:35:59 AM
I know MorGy, but in my defense I apologised profusely, I was just feeling left out, that's all. Speaking of which, 'There once was an Entwife from Lawton, who had one long tit and a shorten...' Only kidding, I won't do it to ya'll twice. I don't think Newline has much to worry about, AOTC and Spiderman will both do great Business regardless of any other advertising shown toi the public. Does anyone really believe that advertising for the Two Towers will effect the takings for AOTC? Come on Newline just give us a bit of a trickle, you know a few pictures here and there, maybe a trailer every couple of months, just like last year... It worked well for FOTR why not TTT? Cheers.
Finishing off my last post by Conan_the_Humble	May 1st, 2002 11:22:59 AM
MorGoth, your question as per usual, is rather interesting. I just saw it a minute ago. I seem to recall a number of TB's discussing a very similar topic. I have stated before that it's not racist (IMHO) to call a person who has a dark hue a Black person. I'm not offended by being called a White person. I will clarify this by stating that it's not racist if it's not intended as a derogatory comment. TOLKEIN himself in letters I believe, answered this very question by stating words to the effect that the Dark skin of the Southrons was merely a function of geography. IE: the further South you go in the World, and the world in LOTR, ME, basically relates to Europe, the darker the skin of the inhabitants. This wasn't meant to insult or denigrate persons of darker skin but merely intimate that the Southrons were supposed to be similar to Africans. He never said that Southrons were inherently evil because of their skin Colour, merely that they had fallen under the sway of Evil. to suggest otherwise is to totally disregard the words of the Professor himself, which then begs the question, 'Why are you here in the first place?' However in saying that, I reckon PJ will probably sidestep the issue and have the Southrons and Haradrim so clad in armour and masks et cetera tat it probably won't even be noticed. You will probably only ever see them in battle or marching to battle anyway. Ah bugger it, I'm off to the pub. Cheers.
Vanyar's take on PJ's FOTR by Vanyar	May 1st, 2002 04:56:18 PM
OK, since several of you have so kindly asked for my opinion of PJ
African-MiddleEarthers by DufusyteII	May 1st, 2002 11:16:37 PM
The guys from the south who arrive at the Battle of Pellanor Fields (or whatever it is called), whatever they are called, those folk with the oliphaunts and all, they have to be black. Like, african black. Doesn't it even say it in the book? Even if it doesn't say it, they have to be black because they just are. ******* Remember that Tolkien likened Gondor to monumental Egypt, and all of MiddleEarth is layed out geographically roughly corresponding to Europe, with the Shire (England) up in the NorthWest corner, and the evil Germans with their black speech lurking in the East, and the French somewhere in the middle (Rohan, Lorien), and then there is the WWII desert theater of North Africa, with Gondor marking the place of Egypt, and then there are these folk driving Elephants coming up in caravans from the South, and they are evidently black. What did you expect, red haired freckly white skinned celts driving elephants?
Ohmigod by Sicuv Uyall	May 2nd, 2002 01:29:20 AM
I don't know why i read these talkbacks. I just read someone's rant about how Blade 2 sucked..... looked like 3 paragraphs about plotholes, thin characterization, blah blah blah. One word.... SHUTTHEFUCKUP. Get out of your parents basement, get a job other than Burger King, and move into your own apartment. Then, I suggest that you get a girlfriend. Or if you can't, hire prostitues. Jesus do something. I spent more than 30 seconds writing this shit. Shame on me.
Csokas, extras... by Mithril	May 2nd, 2002 07:17:48 AM
Vanyar, gotta disagree on your view of Csokas a bit. I seem to remember from interviews and stuff that PJ wanted the people of Lorien, especially Celeborn and Galadriel, to be a bit unworldly. Lorien was quite an isolated place with few visitors, so they didn't have much contact with the outside world, especially with members of other races. Therefore their behaviour and speech patterns were quite unusual. I think both Csokas and Blanchett were going for this, and succeeded. Whether it was the right way to go is of course open for interpretation, but I can thoroughly understand PJ's idea. ***Ok, now for the Haradhrim. Guess we'll have to see what happens. Just a quick note though. Even though NZ doesn't have many black citizens, they could always get Australian Aborigine extras to play the Haradhrim. Just a thought.
Ask the Experts! by AliceInWonderlnd	May 2nd, 2002 07:22:31 AM
Okay, question - when the Witch King of Angmar dies for the last time on the Pellenor Fields, what happens to his Ring? Wouldn't it still be a) extant and b) extremely dangerous? Imagine some poor soul wandering along clearing up the battlefield, "ooh, pretty ring", pops it on and bang, instant Ringwraith. Or would it happen instantly? Or what? I have often wondered this in my idle moments. As for the Swertings, I always thought they were more Indian/Asian than African looking. Probably because of Sam's view of the dead one in Ithilien - didn't he have long shiny black hair?
Alice... by Mithril	May 2nd, 2002 07:53:48 AM
I don't think that would happen. Becoming a Ringwraith is a long process, so any changes would be very slow. And since the One Ring and Sauron are destroyed soon afterwards, the remaining rings no longer have power. You could keep all the remaining rings as nice souvenirs without anything happening. Actually, I wonder if that became a nice tourist trade: "Get an authentic Ring of Power. As once worn by Thrain II/The Witch-King of Angmar/any old dude. Exclusive offer north of Minas Tirith. Also willing to exhange for two barrels of Longbottom Leaf."
Men .... Men are WEAK ! It's the smell ... by Buck Teeth Soh	May 2nd, 2002 08:17:07 AM
I thought Hugo Weaving would have made a much more convincing Celeborn. Nevermind. * Speaking as a red haired freckly white skinned celt, Dufy, I look damn good riding an elephant. * Alice: I'd assume that like Nenya, the rest of the rings would lose their power and their works would fail. * morGy: ain't saying there are no blond kiwis, but those icily nordic types aren't often found outside Scandinavia. Anyway if Black Orc Down can show lots of slaughtered Somalians with hardly any historical footnote or context, I'm sure PJ can have a few up-for-it Maoris. Maybe they can CGI the oliphaunts doing a hakka?
Ring Things by AliceInWonderlnd	May 2nd, 2002 10:05:56 AM
Thanks guys, but I wasn't thinking of after the One Ring gets destroyed, it's kind of a no-brainer that the Nine would become powerless like the other Rings (indeed, I believe the Nazgul perish instantly when the One goes into the fire). I mean, in the gap of time between the drive-by slaying of the Lord of the Nazgul and the smelting down of Sauron's bling bling. (Which is how long, about two weeks? Can't remember.) You're probably right, it probably does take ages to become a Ringwraith, so it wouldn't matter, but considering how Rings are so much on all the characters' minds at that point, just strange that no-one thinks of it.
Of Celeborn, Nazgul rings, Gondor-egyptians and Haka-phaunts by Vanyar	May 2nd, 2002 11:11:24 AM
Mithril, thanks for your insight into Celeborn
Swertings and Prayers by AliceInWonderlnd	May 2nd, 2002 11:38:10 AM
Hmm... should probably make clear that I imagined the dead guy that Sam sees as looking Asian/Indian, not that I believe that he was a "precursor" of any existing race extant in the real world. I mean, I want to reassure everybody that I understand that this stuff is all made up in somebody's head. Anyhoo, yeah, the prayer. I think it's actually one of the few things in the movie that's questionable - it could mean many things, none of them particularly convincing. The immediate, non-Tolkien-saturated interpretation is probably "Oh let me die instead of him", which is a touching sentiment though a bit inappropriate for someone you've just met and haven't actually exchanged any dialogue with. On the other hand, they're carrying the fate of the world with them, so an idealistic type like Arwen may find such a motivation compelling. Okay. Next - the notion that someone put forward that she could give part of her "fea" or spirit to Frodo, which apart from being utterly opaque to anyone in the audience that isn't a complete Tolkien crackwhore, is also patently impossible to someone who is. So, I'm betting that it was put in there for the first reason, and ALSO to foreshadow her giving up her place on the boat to Frodo at the end. Since it doesn't really succeed on any of those levels, I don't think it was handled that well, and always strikes a slightly false note with me (and I'm normally still slightly fuming at this point because Frodo is getting robbed of his little courageous moment at the Ford for the umpteenth viewing). There is an alternative interpretation in that this is the point at which she hands over the boat ticket, but that doesn't fit much - you'd expect a bit more of a ballyhoo about it, really, considering what an important plot point it is, and additionally, it presupposes that Aragorn will successfully reclaim the throne of Gondor and marry her. That would be very presumptuous under the circumstances, particularly with the Ringbearer swooning away into the shadow world in your arms. Bottom line is that I don't rightly understand the intentions; it's a fault, I believe, but it may become clearer in the other movies.
Haka's by Conan_the_Humble	May 2nd, 2002 11:52:15 AM
Haka's were traditionally used as a victory dance. This is partly the reason it is used by the 'All Blacks' (the name of the New Zealand Rugby team, not a racial slur, p.s. tread very carefully here...)at the start of the football match, ie; to psyche the other team out by doing the victory dance at the start of the match... I hardly think it would be appropriate for any Oliphaunts to do Haka's under those circumstances... And before you all start getting upset and huffy I know it was only a joke. Vanyar, I think I agree with an earlier post of yours. I think Arwen was trying to pass on her Fea to Frodo in the film. By changing the story around so that Arwen's strength saves Frodo, rather than Frodo's own inner strength, I think PJ had to continue along that line, otherwise Arwens's expanded role in the film would have seemed to be expanded merely to make Liv TYLER appear more often in the film than Arwen appears in the 'real' (and I say that advisedly) story. It would have been inconsistent to chop and change between the 2. In saying that however, unless PJ is planning for Arwen to show up in the Emyn Muil (which if you're reading this PJ, I sincerely hope doesn't happen...) he won't have any choice but to demonstrate Frodo's inner strength and courage, thus making Arwen's rescuing of him seem a bit out of place... Hang on if I continue along this theme I might start criticising the movie and I might get a rude shock next time I try to sneak into Club Angband and try to drink all MorGy's 1420. Afterall, that damn wolf will only fall for my disguise so many times... Cheers.
well bizarrely enough by Buck Teeth Soh	May 2nd, 2002 11:54:05 AM
I did some digging after my last post, and here's a quote from Viggo: "You'd see hundreds of people walking around Wellington on Saturday night with T-shirts saying Uruk-Hai Battalion or Elf Brigade. And they would taunt each other before scenes. They'd do that Maori hakka, the war chant they do before rugby games. One night the stunt team didn't think the extras were doing it right, so they did this really in-your-face hakka thing and scared the shit out of them." and here's the link: http://www.houseoftelcontar. com/interviews/oz empire0102.html
Re: the Eldarin Fea by Vanyar	May 2nd, 2002 12:05:23 PM
Alice: Hmmm, some very interesting concepts regarding why that scene with Arwen and Frodo at the Ford plays out like it does. There are some definite mysteries about the fea of the Eldar. Regarding Arwen's ability to use her power to aid Frodo (yes, I was the ninnyhammer who said something about "transferring of fea power" - that isn;t waht I was trying to convey - poor word choice), I don't think there is any question that could indeed help Frodo to some extent, though not "heal" him. Eldarin "healing" skills are much more than mere medicinal knoweldge or even what humans might call "magic." It is about the will and native power (imbued in the Eldar's fea) that make the difference. While I don't pretend to know how it may have worked with Arwen aiding Frodo, I don't doubt that she could indeed ease his suffering and slow the transition to the Spirit World a bit until her father could effect more potent healing. Hope that makes sense. I agree that her prayer foreshadows her later giving up of immortality and an offer of "a place on the boat" (something only the Valar can actually grant). I also agree that the Bruinen scene is NOT the moment that she yields her immortality, or offers it or whatever it might be called. Gotta run. Namarie, mellyn.
Leggo my Viggo by DufusyteII	May 2nd, 2002 04:04:41 PM
Although I was very anti-Viggo, I must state that having seen the film, he works very well in the role. The key, yes, the absolute key to why he works in the role, is precisely because they portray Aragorn as having an element of Weakness in him, which he fears will lead him to falter, as Isildur faltered. As Elrond says, "Men are weak. I was there when the strength of Man failed." And when Aragorn speaks with Arwen at the shards of Narsil, that establishes Aragorn as haunted by the shadow of this weakness, which he hopes to overcome. Now, my main complain against Viggo was that he has a sense of weakness about him, and I feared this would not square with the Aragorn I imagined as consummately Strong. But since the film has chosen to characterize Aragorn as haunted by weakness, it plays right into Viggo's essence, and makes him perfect for the role.
Alice... by BG	May 2nd, 2002 07:07:09 PM
...about the Nazgul's rings, I remember having a discussion with Vanyar about this a long time ago. If you look in Unfinished Tales you will find two versions (both by JRRT) of the story of the Nazgul's search for the one ring. In both versions it is stated that Sauron holds the nine rings and this is the reason he has control over the Nazgul. I've always believed this was the way things were and that Gandalf was mistaken when he spoke at the council.
Well, since I could use a vacation by JD1866	May 2nd, 2002 07:54:13 PM
especially after you left me with all the clean-up work from your birthday bash, I'll take a stab at the STV question. I do believe that Boldog was an orc captain from Angband who was sent to capture Luthien. *** Question - why would Sauron need to hold the nine rings to control the Nazgul? Weren't they already under his control? Or perhaps it was a case of locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. You know, the Boss loses his Ring so everybody else has to go without :-)
Hello JD by BG	May 2nd, 2002 09:17:54 PM
The reason Sauron created the one ring was so he could control all the other rings of power ('One ring to rule them all'). Sauron himself had no power over the Nazgul. They were under the power of their individual rings, which were in turn under the power of the one ring. While Sauron had the one ring he controlled the Nazgul, without it he needed the nine rings to control them. To back up my ramblings, in one of the versions from UT that I mentioned above, one of the ring wraiths visit Saruman at Isengard to see if he had found the one ring. Saruman's reply is something like "Why do you bother asking? You know I don't have it, because if I did you would be bowing before me and calling me master."
ring math by DufusyteII	May 2nd, 2002 09:59:22 PM
If a man wears a ring, he wields it, and it works its influence upon him. However, if he loses possession of it, he is no longer under its influence. Hence, if the Black Riders were not wearing their rings, they were not under the influence of those rings, nor able to exercise any special power on account of them. Perhaps that is why they are so wimpy: they left their rings at home with Sauron. ***** Sauron poured his own spirit into the One Ring when he forged it. Therefore his essence is forever bound up with the One Ring wherever it is. However the other rings were given as gifts, and only exercised influence over the wearer as long as he wore it, and the wearer could only exercise power through the ring when wearing it. *** For example, Gandalf wears one of the Elf rings. It was not originally given to him (evidently) since he is not an elf. When he came into possession of it, he began to wield its power, and it began to exert its influence over him. Meanwhile the former wearer of that ring ceased to be under its sway, and ceased to be able to exercise any power through it. *** If (as you say) the Black Riders are under the dominion of their rings even when they no longer possess them, then we would have to conclude that somewhere in MiddleEarth there is an Elf twisting in the wind since Gandalf wears his ring. Similarly, if you claim that the Black Riders can exercise power in virtue of rings which they are not even wearing, then we should equally suppose that somewhere in MiddleEarth there is an Elf who is working wonders in virtue of the ring on Gandalf's finger. ***** And if Gandalf's ring should fall into the hands of Sauron, then would Gandalf (not wearing the ring) be under Sauron's influence and be able to still work wonders through it, even though not wearing it? And would the anonymous Elf who one possessed Gandalf's ring also be similarly enslaved and empowered by the ring which he "formerly possessed"?
in conclusion by DufusyteII	May 2nd, 2002 10:04:42 PM
I humbly submit, the Ring Wraiths were still around precisely because they were still wearing their rings. Like Bilbo, they were stretched thin over too much bread, indeed, to a much greater degree, since they wore their rings for centuries, which prolonged their lives until they were so "thin" that they were mere wraiths. ******* If a Ring Wraith took off his ring, I humbly submit that, like Sauron when his ring was chopped off, they would dissipate into the thin air, since their ring was the only thing keeping their tenuous frame together in this world.
Dufy by BG	May 3rd, 2002 01:22:38 AM
First of all the Elf that originally had Gandalf's ring was Cirdan. It's power is in influencing people so Cirdan gave it to Gandalf when he arrived in ME to aid his work. None of the Elves or Gandalf are slaves to their rings because they did not wield them while Sauron had the one. Elanor is correct, when Celebrimbor, the maker of the Elvish rings sensed the creation of the one he hid the three rings he had made so that Sauron never had control of them. While Sauron held the one, that is when the nine kings became wraiths. Once transformed to wraiths they were forever under the power of their rings and the one. Sauron disappeared in a puff of smoke when the ring was cut from his hand in the movie. This is not what happens in the book! In the book Sauron is defeated first, then after he is 'dead' Isildur cuts the ring from his hand. This isn't idle speculation on my part. JRRT clearly states in Unfinished Tales that Sauron's possession of the nine rings is the method by which he controls the Nazgul. I don't claim that the Black Riders can exercise power in virtue of rings, which they are not even wearing. They are powerful because they are wraiths, not because of their rings. I now call for the intellectual might of Vanyar and morGoth to comment on this discussion.
rings and prayers by Mithril	May 3rd, 2002 03:17:51 AM
Okay, I believe the Ringwraiths are carrying the rings. When it is stated that Sauron controls them because "he holds the rings", I believe it simply means that he holds the rings in his power. In other words, since his One Ring controls the 9 and the 7, he can control whoever wears those rings. What is up for question is what would've happened to the dwarf lords if they'd possessed their rings for many more years? Would there then be a bunch of stumpy Ringwraiths walking around (not riding, since dwarves don't particularly like horses)? Good points about how Bilbo was affected (and let us not forget how Smeagol was affected) and about the Ringwraiths probably disintegrating if they lost their rings. As for the movie, I seem to remember that the wraiths' rings were visible at Amon Sul when Frodo had the Ring on. The hands extending towards him had the rings on them. *As for Arwen's prayer, I think it was just that: a prayer. Vanyar's "passing of some fea" as part of Elvish healing is probably true as well, but the primary reason was just a prayer to their closest Valar. Rivendell itself is protected, and Bruinen itself is of course imbued with wraith-hating good spirit (the name escapes me right now, dammit), so Arwen hopes that the Valar looking over Rivendell will grant Frodo some more time, as they are now within Rivendell's borders. In the same way, Arwen's words to make the Bruinen lash out could be seen as more compelling the spirit in the Bruinen to repel the evil wraiths rather than a "spell" as such. Of course as spells are requests to the gods, it can be seen as both. *Whew, that was long-winded. I say we have a little kegger at the Prancing Pony. Who's with me?
Sticking your finger in a tight ring by Buck Teeth Soh	May 3rd, 2002 06:23:47 AM
I'm in the Rings for the Kings camp. Dufy's logic works for me, but also, the line "the nine he gathered to himself long ago, also the seven" may well refer to the fact that those sixteen rings of power forged by the Mirdain were snatched from them by Sauron when he razed Eregion, and subsequently given to nine mortal men. (Source: Arda Encyclopaedia http://www.glyphweb. com/arda/default.htm since I'm at work). Tolkien himself is occasionally ambiguous, remember, or there'd be no Balrog wings debate (I think Chinese tastes best, but my girlfriend prefers Thai).
Ringing it in... by AliceInWonderlnd	May 3rd, 2002 07:25:28 AM
See, that was also the interpretation I placed on Sauron "holding" the Nine, he holds them because the Nazgul, who are his bitches, are wearing them. Now, Sauron may not be wearing the One, but he is still strongly identified with and connected to it. Also, I remember reading that one of the powers of all the Rings was to stop your "fea" or spirit, from leaving ME. (There's actually a Green Books Q and A on this over at OneRing.Net - "What happens if Frodo dies while wearing the One" - those Q and A are awesome, by the way, but anyway...) My take is that the Nazgul are wraiths because they are wearing their Rings. Pure and simple. They stop wearing their Rings, and they stop Nazgulling. The End. But then this raises another question - if it's true, how did Eowyn and Merry dispatch the Lord of the Nazgul? There's no mention of them cutting his Ring off (ooh er, missus, sounds painful). And how can Frodo become a wraith, since he's not got a Ring of his own (and presumably wouldn't be allowed to keep the One?) Oh well. This beats work, I suppose.
Of Rings of Power by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 12:00:03 PM
Ahhhh, wonderful! A discussion on Rings of Power. Lessee, where to begin? Ummm, Ok, let me start with BG
Re: Boldog by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 12:38:12 PM
OK, so morGY said I couldn
re Rings Discussion by Conan_the_Humble	May 3rd, 2002 01:53:48 PM
To put this discussion in another light, (ie trivial) re Sauron's actual possession of all the Nine Rings and the Seven (well, 3 of them anyway) rings. That seems like an awful lot of jewellery for someone (thing?) with only 9 fingers... Especially for someone who is unable to take Corporeal form after drowning when that big Island sank... Come-on Dufy, if you're gonna argue so earnestly, and 'logically,' at least try and learn something about the subject matter. You seem to be relying on the FOTR movie to back up your claims, when you're discussing things that were barely mentioned in the movie. Try READING 'the Hobbit,' 'LOTR,' 'the Silmarillion,' 'Unfinished Tales' and JRRT's 'Letters' and you might understand some of these issues a bit better. But hey, that's just me talking... Cheers.
Of Saruman, Maiar-orcs and Morgoth's Ring by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 02:04:07 PM
morGy, I
Conan the Humble: re: Corporeal Form by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 02:14:20 PM
C the H, just me nitpickin. Sauron can indeed assume corporeal form. After he "died" in the wreck of Numenor, he was no longer able to assume a "fair" form. He could assume a form however. When he did he wrought a horrible one, as is related in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age." Namarie.
Isn't Morgoth's Ring... by AliceInWonderlnd	May 3rd, 2002 02:14:24 PM
...Middle Earth? I think I read that somewhere. I REALLY need to play with "The Silmarillion" again.
Continuing the Trivial by Conan_the_Humble	May 3rd, 2002 02:17:06 PM
I think's it time for me to pose a question now that I've had a number of beers. Did Gandalf obtain Narya after 'Curry' night at Cirdan's? Crude I know, but it wasn't as bad as my Limerick! Sorry Dufy I didn't read your post properly, (I am now trying to live up to my namesake...) I find myself in agreement with your argument, basically. I still think your arguments would benefit from a more extensive knowledge of all matters concerning ME though. Cheers.
Bingo, Alice! by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 02:23:32 PM
AiW, You nailed the Glamhoth on the noggin! Middle Earth was indeed Morgoth's Ring. He and his Valaraukar (Balrogs in Sindarin) bound their fea so closely within the circles of the world that were unable to forsake their "fana" voluntarily. They had to be "killed" to be released, or else forcibly ejected (like Morgoth)into the Outer Darkness by the Powers.
Damn by Conan_the_Humble	May 3rd, 2002 02:29:39 PM
There I go again, shootin off my mouth, re Sauron's ability to mass something... I still think my point about 12 rings on 9 fingers is pretty valid though. (Notice the vain attempt to regain some self esteem?) That was one thing I found a bit strange about the movie though. Sauron's mask. I know PJ needed a big baddy, (he'll have one to have a huge downfall for each movie methinks. Lurtz in FOTR, Saruman in TTT and Sauron in ROTK?) but surely Sauron's grotesque features could have been scary enough? Cheers.
Conan: Yup, some many rings, so few fingers by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 02:56:46 PM
C the H, I guess he just keep shis trinkes in a hope chest on his nightstand in the Barad-Dur Penthouse Suite. I wasn't particularily pleased with Ol' Gorthaur's helmet either. His armor looked cool in the battle, but his armor made him look like a pudge in the scene where he has forged the ring in Orodruin and holds it aloft. Something about those armored bat-wing things at his sides just look awkward. I now it was the same armor supposedly, but he looked more powerful in the basttle sequence, leaner and meaner or sumthin'. Ah well.. Yes, methinks his gruesome features would have been sufficient to scare the Alliance. The downfall in ROTK should be sufficiently awesome methinks. Namarie.
Man, did I butcher my spelling or what by Vanyar	May 3rd, 2002 03:16:37 PM
Yikes!! My last post was horrendous in the typo department. That's what I get for not proofreading.
What a marvelous tailend talk back!! by JD1866	May 4th, 2002 01:38:30 AM
I can't say where I read that bit about Boldog. I've never actually read the Lays of Beleriand or Morgoths Ring, just perused them at the book store now and again. Perhaps it was there or maybe morGy's recycling his trivia stumpers. Anyhoo, for some reason, I was under the impression that Boldog was after the famed beauty of Doriath to satisfy one of Morgoths foul cravings. * Thanks for the overwhelming response to my small inquiry regarding the nine rings. I would like to comment on the effect rings of power have on the Dwarves. I've always suspected that Thorin's unreasonable greed and anger (before the the Battle of Five Armies) was caused by The Ring. It called to him and he responded. Which brings me to another topic I've been mulling over- Aule. It's kinda interesting that some of the greatest villians in ME were under his tutelage. Sauron, Saruman, and Feanor were all closely associated with him. Did Tolkien himself ever comment on that fact or is it just a coincidence? * And finally, a note to morGoth. If you value that dottering, senile old fool the Gaffer, you had better keep him away from MY distillery. If I catch him trying to add taters to the brew again, I shall roast him and use what's left for charcoal in the filtering process.
Mr T, MorGy? by Conan_the_Humble	May 4th, 2002 02:47:51 AM
I know we were having a discussion about jewellery, but come on... re JD's point about Aule's students becoming 'evil.' Given the porfessor's well known and openly admitted dislike of all things mechanical, does it seem strange that Aule's students would become evil? I'm only surprised that TOLKEIN didn't make Aule into the main baddy of the story, but then he might have been guilty of putting allegory into his story... Cheers
"Chance, as it is called in Middle Earth..." by AliceInWonderlnd	May 4th, 2002 09:43:58 AM
...because this notion of evil spirits was put in my mind when the Boldog question came up, and appears to be the theme from the last question. Now, I understand that morGy's evil cronies took forms like Balrogs and dragons and so forth. Great. Fine. But what of this notion that they can come back, as is implied in Boldog's case? I mean, I'm presuming these guys aren't going on to the judgement of Mandos. That would be a very awkward interview - "So, Smaug, you want to return to the world?" "Well, yeah. I have a whole load of towns to burn and dwarves to eat." I forsee him having trouble getting a visa back, even with a signed note from his true boss. (and where's the Outer Darkness? Did Sauron go there apres Ring-destruction? I'm thinking not, since he's destined, according to Gandalf, to be " a spirit of shapeless malice" I believe, sort of like one of Terry Pratchett's small gods. Again, I could be wrong and probably am - I have decided I may well cede to the notion that Sauron keeps the Nine in his jewellery box (which presumably plays "Fist Fuck" by Nine Inch Nails when opened) Where do these evil spirits go when they die, how do they reincarnate outside of the system of Valinor, and why are they evil in the first place? I'm presuming their Melkor's old homies and servants from the days of the Discord, but am I right? I should really read "The Silmarillion" and stop wasting everybody's time, shouldn't I?
Sauron and wraiths and balrogs, oh my! by Mithril	May 6th, 2002 07:39:53 AM
Bjarki56: good call on the Aule connection! Excellent. Let's face it, greed is also the downfall of almost everyone in the story: Gollum, Saruman, Sauron, Denethor (you could say his thirst for knowledge got him to use the Palantir and we all know where that lead), Boromir (in a way), the dwarves of Moria ("they delved too greedily and too deep"), the 9 kings/ringwraiths (thirst for power) etc. *As for Sauron, I could appreciate the mask, at least at the LA. Let's face it, if PJ had tried any actual face, you'd hear people complaining about it from here to doomsday ("that doesn't look right" fighting with "you can't show what Sauron really looks like"). The forging scene might have worked nicely with a fair form, though - and been correct for the time line. Don't know if I'd pick Connery, though. Someone more elf-like (Jude Law, anyone?) might have been better. Actually, considering the Finnish background of the name Annatar, a female form may have been in order. Is it actually stated anywhere that Annatar was a male form? Alice: being just a wraith is different from being a ringwraith, so Frodo could certainly fade away into the shadow world of the wraiths even without a ring. Of course we could talk endlessly about the wraiths' existence and the elves existence on both plains, but not in this message. Vanyar, though I strongly agree with all of your post, your correction about Saruman and Frodo was also right on. In some ways, it's like the palantir: if you have the mental power AND the know-how, you can use it, otherwise you just get screwed. Frodo would never become a proper dark lord with the Ring, the nazgul would just take him to Sauron. I suppose that is actually one of the reasons Gollum hides with the Ring. Partly it's because the Ring wants it (to lay low until it's time to awake once more when Sauron has regained some strength), but Gollum also appears to be acutely aware that even with his precious he can't fight the dark forces - that they would simply take the Ring from him and take it to Sauron. *Lately it's struck me a bit funny that Aragorn at no point before Gandalf of Many Colours appears thinks Gandalf might have made it. Considering he's a friend of Glorfindel's and has distant ties to Beren (and grew up with Elrond, who's knowledge of Beren would certainly be huge), the fates of those two in connection to fatal fights with balrogs should be well known to him. Maybe he was just too distraught to think about it, but come on, there is a definite pattern here!
Mithril by Conan_the_Humble	May 6th, 2002 08:43:55 AM
Aragorn probably had a bit much on his mind to idly ponder whether Gandalf had made it or not. His knowledge of previous encounters with Balrogs wouldn't have helped much even if he had spoken with Glorfindel or anyone else about it. He certainly didn't have the opportuntity to speak to Glorfindel about it after Gandalf's fall. I hardly think that Glorfindel would have been particularly inclined to speak much about it in any case, considering that Glorfindel 'died' (and I'm not prepared to go down THAT path...) by falling over the edge of an abyss in his encounter with a Blarog! That's an interesting issue in itself. Did Elves (and I'm thinking Glorfindel in particular here) ever speak to others about their experience in Mandos' halls, anyone?
Mithril: re: Aragorn, Gandalf & Glorfindel by Vanyar	May 6th, 2002 01:07:08 PM
Mithril, if I understand correctly, you are saying that Aragron realize the possibility of Gandalf
Of Boldog, Annatar and Aule's Students by Vanyar	May 6th, 2002 02:27:11 PM
***Alice: Re: Boldog. Yes, these Great Orcs or Orc-captains are evil maiar who followed Morgoth, were corrupted, and in his service took on an orc
Man, I take a few days off and the conversation gets all respect by Pallando Blue	May 6th, 2002 04:09:52 PM
And even now I certainly don't have the time to both read all this AND drag it all back into the gutter. ;~) But I did want to jump in right quick to say, having recently begun The History of LOTR, that we should all be grateful J.R.R. was such a fan of revision, and decided not to explore too fully the adventures of Bilbo's son, Bingo Bolger-Baggins. *** Now, on with the proper talk. (And how-do, JD!) Maybe by the end of THIS week (sigh) I'll have time to read at length AND write at length. But so far lately, it's good enough to be readin'! Namarie, all o' ya.
Vanyar ? Well bless my britches! by Skyway Moaters	May 6th, 2002 07:28:35 PM
... what in Ea could possibly have motivated Mandos' piss boy (Vanyar) to come among us lowly mortals once more after so long a hiatus ?! Just kidding, I don't really think of you Big M's pissboy, not at all, I think of you as his pedicurist, what with sitting at his feet so much and all... er, uhm Oh yeah: WELCOME!
about the balrog thing... by Mithril	May 7th, 2002 03:00:54 AM
I'm not saying that Aragorn would've known that there was a balrog there (though he did have a bad feeling about going through Moria) or that he could've warned Gandalf. What I'm saying is that considering how Beren and Glorfindel have been brought back before, after sacrifices that are very similar to Gandalf's, that Aragorn (knowing these stories) could have had some hope that Gandalf would be brought back too. I do think that of course the shock of the event and the pressure to lead the company to Lorien took the matter out of his mind for a while, but I think the thought could have entered his mind in Lorien e.g. as the elves are singing their songs about Mithrandir. ***The Gandalf issue I'll discuss in a different post.
Annatar by Mithril	May 7th, 2002 03:07:19 AM
Thanks for the Annatar response, Vanyar. As a translator, I just find it amusing that Annatar is actually a female term if we look at the Finnish basis for Quenya. In Finnish, the name Annatar would mean "a female who gives things", fitting well with the "giver of gifts" meaning in Tolkien's works.
Was just reading Morg's posts.... by Skyway Moaters	May 7th, 2002 08:27:34 AM
...and it occurred to me; I never quite thought about it in these exact terms before, but even though Melkor was the "the evil" one; I mean he get
Mithril, Skyway and morGy by Vanyar	May 7th, 2002 09:43:50 AM
*** Mithril: Saw yer response re: the Balrog and all. Not sure if you saw my post addressed to you on the topic. If not, give it a gander and see what you think. Very interesting info on the Finnish translation of Annatar. Wondered why you were asking about Annatar
How bloody emabarrasing izzat ???!!! by Skyway Moaters	May 7th, 2002 01:27:52 PM
...confusing Manwe with Mandos??!! EEEK! Not only does it undermine my credibility as a Tolkienoid but it absolutely wrecks the pedicurist joke... YEEESH! {;-(
morGoth spreads his deceits once more, I deem! by Vanyar	May 7th, 2002 01:38:38 PM
Ahh, morGoth (yes, I said morGoth. You gave up the right to be called Melkor long ago). Once more you whisper foul lies and twisted truths from the Outer Darkness. Aiya! Will your machinations never cease? Yes, Feanor was a betrayer and gave in to the self-love taught by you. It is easy to see what following your egotistical path did to such as Sauron, Feanor, Saruman and the Nine.
Skyway: Naaah, not embarrassing at all ! by Vanyar	May 7th, 2002 01:52:12 PM
*** Hey mellon! No need to be embarrassed! I knew zackly what you meant. That is the cool thing about yackin with a bunch of true blue Tolkienites (or "oids" or "ians" or whatever). We get the drift regardless of typos, etc. If I had had any manners I wouldn't have even brought up the correction. Anywho, think nuthin of it. Just sit back, relax and watch what appears to be a little friendly cross-species bashing twixt the ever-ascerbic morGoth and yours truly. Quite a card, that FORMER Vala. Namarie, mellon.
elanor... by BG	May 8th, 2002 12:12:55 AM
...I have listened intently during that scene and I'm pretty sure I know what he says. He says, "Peek-a-boo... I see you."
'Turin's Revenge' by Conan_the_Humble	May 8th, 2002 02:19:10 AM
MorGy, you'd better be careful about bagging 'Turin' like that. I think you know what happens at the end of Middle Earth, just prior to Eru taking up his yodelling once more... I read somewhere that Tulkas, Earendil and Turin, will be teaming up for a final showdown with you. Boy, you're gonna be in for it then I can tell ya. He's been stewing on this for over 3 ages now, and you can bet he's gonna be good and mad! It's gonna be better than when Fingolfin gave you a touch up that time, with those wounds that have never healed. How are those going by the way? I must admit though liked that crack about the Angbandi Self Defence Force though, and you can say what you will about Feanor though, but that whole self-cremation number was amazing... Vanyar, I noticed in one of your earlier posts that you said, thatit was confirmed that there was only ever one Glorfindel. How so? I've seen a number of hotly contested debates on this topic and never have I seen a definite answer, much the same as the Balrogs Wings I guess. Though if Balrogs actually had wings, I don't think Gondolin would have remained hidden for as long as it did. I fail to see how an Eagle could have stod up to a flying Balrog. Cheers.
Aule, Gandalf, Sauron and whatnot by Mithril	May 8th, 2002 04:22:09 AM
Okay, first off: Morgoth, I'm a bit surprised that your rants have yet to include attacks on Tulkas (what with coming in and kicking your hiney out). Still, I imagine they are coming. *Elanor, I do know what Sauron said (that's what you get when the theatres show subtitles), but alas, can't remember now. After the "I see you. You cannot hide." it was something like "there is no light in the darkness, there is no air in the void"... Oh bloody hell, I can't remember, something like that. *As for why a lot of Aul
the three rings by Mithril	May 8th, 2002 05:21:09 AM
Just read some of the old TB and felt I needed to chime in. The three rings also remain pure from Sauron because they are never used (check "The Unfinished Tales" if you don't believe me). The three were hidden and given to certain wise ones for safekeeping, but these ringbearers never actively wielded them. The simple fact that they possessed them did, however, have a positive impact on the places and people close to them (exemplified by the glory of Rivendell and Lorien, and undoubtedly by an increase in Gandalf's positive influence over people). The three could not, however, be used safely as long as the One Ring was around.
"I think that Mr Peter Jenkins is an insensitive bastard. He sho by Buck Teeth Soh	May 8th, 2002 08:32:13 AM
Hilarious. http://www.PetitionOnline. com/twotower/petition.html and read the messages.
Go see it for yourself by Alkdarf	May 8th, 2002 09:47:02 AM
Here is a bootleg of the trailer, Check it out: http://www.1001bandesannonces. com/2t1.mov
Conan the Humble: re: Glorfindel by Vanyar	May 8th, 2002 11:47:17 AM
G the H: Sorry. I shouldn
Mithril, Conan and Miami by Vanyar	May 8th, 2002 12:14:41 PM
*** Mithril: Fantastic commentary about Saruman, Gandalf and the White vs. Many Colours issue. You REALLY know your Tolkien !!! I hadn
Mithril: Regarding Use of the Three by Vanyar	May 8th, 2002 02:41:31 PM
*** Mithril: I believe you are almost correct in your comment regarding the Three Eldarin Rings of Power. You said that they were
Mithril: One more point about the Three by Vanyar	May 8th, 2002 03:03:06 PM
I believe that the Three were indeed used to some extent before Sauron set the One on his finger. As soon as he did that, the Eldar became aware of his ring and his intent, and in fear and anger "took off their rings" and hid them from him. So, the Three were forged, worn, used until Sauron put on the One, then the Three were removed and not used again until after Sauron lost the One. Then they were used from his downfall to the unmaking of the One. Hope all that made sense. Namarie, mellon.
elanor... by BG	May 8th, 2002 09:41:41 PM
...to tell you the truth the TORN article is the first I've heard about it. The article says the story will be all over NZ TV and newspapers, but it hasn't been. I don't think The Listener has been running a campaign against LOTR. I seem to remember the Listener running several well-written 'Behind the Scenes' articles while the filming was going on. It's probably just a storm in a teacup.
Uh Oh... I think I broke the order! by BG	May 8th, 2002 09:45:44 PM

Yep! I've broken it! by BG	May 8th, 2002 09:47:46 PM

Dufusytell: Weathertop is not Amon Hen by Vanyar	May 9th, 2002 09:03:55 AM
D: Just looking over old posts in the early part of this TB and noticed one where you talk about the additional footage in the extended version DVD. One thing I wanted to point out (and I hope it doesn't burst your bubble), but you mentioned the additional footage of the battle of Amon Hen and how you thought it might help the Nazgul not seem so wimpy. Just for the record, the additional footage is not of the fight with the Nazgul at Weathertop, but is (evidently) of Merry and Pippin fighting orcs during the scene where Lurtz pincushions Boromir. Amon Hen is Sindarin for the "Hill of Sight" which lies at the southern end (western bank) of Nen Hithoel (the long, pale lake that is part of River Anduin). Weathertop's Sindarin name is Amon Sul (Hill of the Wind). Sorry, but no extended Nazgul fight I'm afraid. Namarie, mellon
"Pod Birthing Gives New Hope to Childless Orcs" by Pallando Blue	May 9th, 2002 02:08:51 PM
Hey all, just a quick how-do, and to share this http://www.tolkienonline.com/d ocs/6531.html which just cracked me the hell up. Namarie! Back... next week? GAH!
elanor... by BG	May 9th, 2002 05:51:49 PM
...for some reason my reply to your question ended up in the middle of the TB. So here it is reprinted in all it's glorious tedium, "...to tell you the truth the TORN article is the first I've heard about it. The article says the story will be all over NZ TV and newspapers, but it hasn't been. I don't think The Listener has been running a campaign against LOTR. I seem to remember the Listener running several well-written 'Behind the Scenes' articles while the filming was going on. It's probably just a storm in a teacup. "
Miami and morGoth ... by BG	May 9th, 2002 09:23:25 PM
...I can now reveal, in my capacity as PJ, that the lone rider is in fact... Figwit!
Gandalf, Manwe, the three... by Mithril	May 10th, 2002 03:00:41 AM
First off, thanks Vanyar for the kind words. ***Elanor, yep, I'm in Finland. Let me tell you, LOTR is such a part of the culture here... As for the Manw
the three continued by Mithril	May 10th, 2002 03:25:46 AM
Thought I'd better clarify what I mean when I talk of the three rings being wielded "actively". In many ways, the rings of power can exude an influence even when they are not being used. The One Ring is the most powerful one, as it has a large influence even when it isn't worn (it's effect on Bilbo, Frodo and Boromir, for instance). The three rings are not as powerful. That is why, to hide them and to make sure they could not have any influence on things or be influenced by the One, their owners took them off their fingers when the One Ring was created. When the One Ring is lost, the owners could once again put the rings on. The rings, when simply worn, already have an effect, and by simply being worn by powerful people of good intent, they do good around them. They would still not seem to be actively wielded (their owners know that the One Ring is not yet destroyed) and Sauron, as he regains his power in secret and searches for the Ring, also has no clear knowledge of where the three are. After a while, however, the glory of Rivendell and Lorien attract his attention and he surmises that two of the three are in Elrond and Galadriel's possession. He would've undoubtedly found this out sooner (and with more confidence) if the rings were being openly wielded. The fact that Elrond and Gandalf are never mentioned as wearing the rings (except for the scene at the Grey Havens) and that Galadriel's ring is only visible to Frodo and even then for only a short while shows that the three are still kept secret, and thus probably not "actively" wielded. By active I mean using the ring to perform a specific task. The positive influence of the rings on the surroundings and people around their ringbearers is mostly due to "passive" wielding, with the rings merely supporting and augmenting the good powers of their wielders (and by making some desired things come true, even though not specifically and actively asked to perform something). ***Well, that was tiresome. And could be contested. But this is the view I get from the facts presented.
and continued again by Mithril	May 10th, 2002 03:31:52 AM
The three may have been used very briefly during the main reconstruction after the Battle of the LA (when it was known that Sauron could not possibly have regrouped yet), but the way Isildur died, the Ring's then-unknown location and an understanding of the evil (& Sauron's power) still inherent in the Ring most likely showed the owners of the three that the rings could not be used safely even then.
some more on the three... why do I refuse to stop? by Mithril	May 10th, 2002 05:26:07 AM
Okay, as for the actual power the three have, Nenya, being the Ring of Water, assisted Galadriel's powers (through the Mirror - made of water) and the blooming of Lorien (through the surrounding waters feeding it) by helping Galadriel get in touch with the powers of Ulmo and Osse et al. *Narya, when in the possession of Gil-Galad, naturally worked in concert with Aeglos, which as you may recall represented fire, to counteract the consuming fire of Sauron. The same works now with it assisting the "kindling fire" of Gandalf against Sauron. *Vilya, when in Gil-galad's possession, represented the air (and thus Manw
TO: bjarki56 and Mithril, re: Moral relativism, Istari Choices by Vanyar	May 10th, 2002 10:14:19 AM
***bjarki56: Bravo!!! I loved your exposition on the moral relativism/ego-centrism that pervades modern culture and how Tolkien made that a central theme and focus of the nature of evil in his works. That is one of the reasons (as you stated) that JRRT
The Envinyatar hath arrived by Envinyatar	May 10th, 2002 11:56:45 AM
An lo, Envinyatar descended the dais, and approached the foul morGoth and spake unto him words of challenge,
aah, mellons, the talk continues by Mithril	May 13th, 2002 02:15:25 AM
First off, thanks Miami Mofo for your thanks. ***Vanyar & Morgoth: I think we are pretty much in agreement on everything, we just use slightly different language. Some of the things you include in "active" use I don't, but I think we can agree that we are of one mind on the actual workings. And yes, Vanyar, of course Gil-galad didn't have Narya with him at the LA battle. It's just that all in all, the ring and Aeglos could be used to repel "the fire of Sauron". This should also be taken symbolically (repelling the power/encroachment/forces of Sauron before the final battle). I mean, Gandalf was supposed to use it in resisting the consuming fire of Sauron with his kindling fire, but they didn't have a lot of personal face-offs (though Gandalf did get to have his fire-against-fire fight with the balrog). It's more of a general thing, and not to be taken purely literally, although the literal meaning is also true.
aww crap, the order's hosed again! by Mithril	May 13th, 2002 03:08:47 AM
You innocently TB, and the message shoots to where it's not supposed to go! That's it, I'm going to go all balrog on this computer's ass!
Is there anyone here with wit enough to treat with me? by Envinyatar	May 13th, 2002 09:18:21 AM
I suppose bjarki and morGoth, thou thinkest thou art true geniuses because thou canst answer such a simple riddle, one straight out of the tome? Pshaw! Child's play. Here the assembled mass partakes of its sweet little talkback and suddenly someone with true intellect arrives and all begin acting like petulant schoolchildren. And you, elanor, what couldst be so special about this "Vanyar" person, whoever he/she may be? Thou dost act like we should not say anything to upset the poor twit. What, be he some mighty Tolkien master? Ridiculous! And such cheek, taking the name of the Highest clan of Elves. He/she cannot even get the syntax correct. Vanyar is plural. He/she couldst at least have been aware enough to use the singular "Vanya." Ah, why do I even try posting on these lowbrow TBs. Is there anyone residing in this electronic space with wit enough treat with me? Vanya(r)? What, run away to pout already? Prima donna! I weary of this sport. I shall return anon to torment further. Ash nazg, pushdugs!
And lo, the fair seeming of Envinyatar was cast aside... by Envinyatar	May 14th, 2002 09:15:33 AM
...and the true being was revealed........Darth Glamhoth!!! "Weenies"? Sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle black!! You smug little Tolkienerds sit back and act like LOTR is the be all and end all of the Universe! Give me a freakin break! Broaden your horizons!! There are whole worlds of fantasy out there far more detailed and realistic than JRRT's (hmm, rhymes with JERK) white-picket-fence, good-always-wins-in-the-end schmaltz. Read some real fantasy like Thomas Covenant, or better yet, some sci-fi (far superior to fairies and sprites flitting about over the lush, green [and over-described]landscape). Hey, you wanna read LOTR, fine, but don't try and tell me it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. It just ain't true! Myopic geeks! Sittin around discussin "White versus Many Colored" and how "white light contains all the colors, and...." Puhleeez!!! And I thought the SW fanboys were pathetic!! OK, Tolkies, bring it on!! Pushdugs!!
What the heck happened? by Vanyar	May 14th, 2002 01:55:17 PM
Man! I get distracted from posting for a few days and some troller comes snuffling around. Ummm, Envinnie or Darth G, or whoever you REALLY are, trust me. Your attempts to get a rise out of this group isn't going to work. I'm sure you probably are good at inciting the SW fanboys, but that silly game doesn't fly here. Just move along and take your immature rants with you. We have seen some real doozies come blasting into our Tolkien TBs and they all think they are going to just crush us with their ascerbic wit and foul mouth, etc. etc etc. That is the mistake that is often made. Civility and rationality are seen as weakness, we they are really a sign of inner strength and calm. No, I'm not trying to be arrogant, just stating a universal truth. Loud and boisterous and profane often mean insecure, juvenile and illiterate. No offense. If you want to post rationally and coverse about a subject....we hear you. If not, you'll be ignored. Peace, mellon.
Evinyatar, by Conan_the_Humble	May 14th, 2002 11:45:42 PM

Evinyatar, by Conan_the_Humble	May 14th, 2002 11:48:01 PM
You sir, are a buffoon. A Buffoon!!! I know I've said it before, but it works on so many levels. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. BTW, I'm looking forward to seeing Harry's book. I hope it's worth reading after it's extensive travelling... Cheers.
well, now that that's out of the way... by Mithril	May 15th, 2002 03:45:14 AM
Vanyar and guys, did ya notice my 2 posts from a few days ago? They was somehow mysteriously transported to high up on the TB, so you can find them there.
Thomas Covenant? by Buck Teeth Soh	May 15th, 2002 05:43:52 AM
Strewth, I found that stuff unreadable, as well as hackneyed, cliched and turgid. For some decent self-loathing anti-hero antics, read anything with Elric. Or even bloody Raistlin for that matter. Decent fantasy is hard to find, and that's mostly the fault of the readers who will buy any.. old.. shit.. with a dragon, an ersatz elf and some ditzy bimbo princess who falls for a kitchen boy who is really a prince. BLLEAAARRGHHH!. Dunsany Roolz!
Mithril & elanor by Vanyar	May 15th, 2002 05:04:07 PM
* Mithril: Read your misplaced posts. Sorry if I insulted your intelligence with my comments about G-g and Narya. Shoulda known you were just talking symbolically and generally. Man, I can be so dense sometimes. I would like to use age as an excuse, but that would be a lie. Anywho, I just want to say how much I enjoy and appreciate tossing around ideas with the likes of you, morGy, elanor, PB, bjarki and so many others. Pure joy! * elanor: Just read your latest troll flame ! You go girl!!! Hopefully we have heard the last of Envinnie/DarthG. *** Well, what shall we talk about, precioussessssss, eh? What shall we talksssss about?
I know it's a taboo subject, but... by Conan_the_Humble	May 16th, 2002 01:54:08 AM
* Spoilers Ahead* I just saw AOTC and at the risk of starting a flame war, I don't think TTT is gonna have too much trouble beating AOTC at next year's Oscars. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind AOTC, except for the atrocious acting and dialogue, and the fact that most of the actors looked embarrassed to have to deliver that tripe. And boy, Ole' GL must have been impressed seeing Christopher Lee's performance as Saruman in FOTR. I don't know why GL even bothered calling him Count DOOKU, he should have just called him Saruman, and not even tried to pretend that Christopher lee was performing a different role... I like Christopher Lee and consider him to be a marvelous actor. However, both PJ and GL seem to have had a very particular role in mind for him, and it seems to be very coincidental that both movies were released and shot so closely together eh, 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink, eh?' Anyhoo, does anyone have any idea, what those new pics at TORN are? Anyone? Cheers.
LOTR by Mithril	May 16th, 2002 02:44:36 AM
Vanyar, mellon, dude, what are you apologising for? Let's face it, a lot of stuff can be interpreted literally or figuratively, and when you're communicating without any physical contact (which is over 80 % of all communication), things can sometimes be misunderstood. You certainly didn't insult my intelligence. Well, that made it all nice again (cue hobbit music from movie). Aahh... ***Anyway, as for bjarki's question, I've noticed I can see the characters either way: the movie versions or the ones I've imagined. Actually, in a lot of cases, the similarities are so close, there's almost no difference. E.g. Saruman and all the hobbits in the movie looked exactly like I always imagined them and all the others were damn close (pretty much the only variable is Legolas' hair, which I've imagined about 5 different ways).
Voices in my head by Buck Teeth Soh	May 16th, 2002 07:18:04 AM
bjarki, in answer to your general question - I'm reading Fellowship again atmo, and I still mostly have the impressions from the voices on the radio BBC play. Backgrounds and creatures are coloured in by the film, but Orthanc is still white (as per Tolkien's own illustrations) and Legolas still has dark hair. As PJ pointed out in a Q & A on this site about 3 years ago, its not intended as a definitive version, but as his interpretation. Funny you should mention VR, because I always see middle earth in first person. Probably the depth of description.
Saw AOTC: Oh the horror, the horror... by pseudoplotinus	May 17th, 2002 05:28:17 AM
How should I begin except to say that what once was a mere suspicion has now grown into a personal conviction that no one comprising the AICN staff has the guts to call a major block buster of the scale of SW a dud. So you've heard it here, this movie is such a dud it thuds! I'm not going to go into any detail except to say Lucas has dug himself into a deep trilogy sized hole without any interesting characters to bail him out, no Luke, no Han Solo. When they called this flick attack of the clones they may as well have been referring to the entire cast. I Actually began to feel a little simpathy for some of the CGI characters, and they weren't even getting paid! Ah well, it was only $8.50 I got tricked out of. I should have gone and seen LOTR a 15th time. Even the Moria orcs had more charisma than these guys.
And further... by Conan_the_Humble	May 18th, 2002 04:57:39 PM
I'd like to say that I think it's very unfair that I have to wait until the 6th of June to see Spiderman. AOTC opened in Australia the same day as the rest of the civilised world and thanks to the wonders of time zones, we got to see it before a lot of others... We seem to have a problem in Australia, given that we are a small Country, (population wise) and a relatively small movie viewing audience, I think the biggest movie of all time, financially at least, Titanic, made somewhere in the vicinity of $24 Million during it's run at the Theatres, means that Studios decide for some reason, that Australia can wait a few months before seeing Movies. Even FOTR, which was produced as everybody knows, in NZ, a mere 4 hour flight from most of the population base in Australia took a week or more to reach most places in Australia. Why does this happen? Can anyone tell me? We have a relatively large proportion of theatres to movie-goers, so an overwhelming number of films for the available theatres can hardly be the problem. Anyway enough of this rant. MorGy, relax, I read your posts, they were not made in vain!!! I have a LOTR related question now though. What does everyone (anyone?) think about these rumours of the Elven brigade appearing in Helm's Deep, during TTT. I know without more details it is all sheer speculatio, however it would seem to be most unnecessary (IMHO) for Elves to assist at Helm's Deep, given that during the War of the Ring, the Elves have their own battles to contend with? Cheers.
elves at HD by Mithril	May 19th, 2002 03:26:31 PM
Okay, I believe there will be some elves at Helm's Deep, there with Elrond's sons (who've brought the banner along, and possibly Narsil, though that is up for question). Arwen will be nowhere in sight. Philippa Boyens has stated very clearly that Arwen will not be anywhere near members of the fellowship until she shows up at Gondor for the coronation, and that she will definitely not show up at HD or the Paths of the Dead. We might see her taking part in the fights against Dol Guldur though. I want to see Elrond and Celeborn in action, I must say! Show us those elven battles, PJ! *I absolutely love the elves too. Wish there was more of them, but of course Tolkien was also making a point about the Elves being a waning race then and about how humans came to be relied on and how the ordinary folk (i.e. hobbits) had a big part to play. Still wish they would've had Legolas shoot down the winged beast though (come on, one of my fave bits). Maybe in TTT... *Just came back from seeing AOTC. And though this may shock you, I gotta say I liked it quite a lot. Except for some "deus ex machina" bits, the dumb cow creature scene and some truly crappy dialogue on occasion, all in all (plot-wise, pacing-wise and acting-wise) a very good flick. Still can't understand hiring Martin Czokas for his part though. Totally unnecessary... Chris Lee was good, though Dooku was very Saruman-like (the "big constructions underground"/"boy I love technology" scheme and the proud "I'm the most powerful" bit)...
I agree with Mithril. by BG	May 19th, 2002 05:38:45 PM
I saw AOTC and I really enjoyed it. I agree with Conan and pseudo that the characters were rather two-dimensional and the dialog, at times, was pretty awful, but those are my only complaints. The plot was rather good and left me eager to see the next one. If you compare it to FOTR it will never measure up, but compared to TPM it is a vastly superior film. Mithril ... which part did Martin Czokas play? I also remember Boyens saying that Arwen won't turn up until the coronation, but in the TT preview it clearly shows a scene with Aragorn and Arwen together!!!
BG... by Mithril	May 20th, 2002 08:07:22 AM
Csokas played the leader of the insect people. You know, the one who tells Dooku he's gonna take his troops to the catacombs in the end. Why the hell hire Csokas to do that?! The character is like totally CGI'd, doesn't speak english and his voice is totally distorted digitally to sound odd. Why even hire an actor for that part?! ***And yes, we do see Arwen and Aragorn in the teaser. Which to me is odd. Unless it's a flash-back or something (I mean, they sure flashed back to that "Sauron getting his fingers whacked off" scene enough times in FOTR). And besides, their clothes and the overall happy, petals-flying-everywhere mood of the clip doesn't fit with how people behaved after HD. They didn't exactly party and act all happy. They still had work to do, and besides a sense of relief and muted joy didn't express their joy very much. Certainly not in any way resembling the Aragorn/Arwen bit. Of course, they could be totally screwing with us and it turns out to be a scene from Gondor in ROTK. Hmm... Naah.
morGoth: You intrigue me. Are you offering me.... by Envinyatar	May 20th, 2002 09:10:08 AM
.....a position in the Club? Hmmm, this has possibilities. I see you at least recognize talent and class when you see it....not like little troll-appetizer halflings and flower-dripping Eldar...phaughhh!!! I shall consider your offer, but only...ONLY mind you, if I am offered the position of Assistant Barkeep. Anything less would be beneath the talents, breeding and station of Darth Glamhoth. Yes, yes, I know. I'm still posting as Envinyatar. A necessary evil until I find time in my oh so hectic round of executions, interrogations and tortures to change over to a proper posting handle. Ah, the many duties our high station calls us to. Noblesse oblige, yes? I await your decision, morGoth. But do not wait to ling in replying. You may lose a valuable employee.
Miami and Conan by BG	May 20th, 2002 10:55:06 PM
Since Conan lives in Aus I'd better join the que for the book after him.
Nar! by Buck Teeth Soh	May 21st, 2002 05:23:52 AM
Just wondering morGy, are you quoting the Purple Marauder there?
Australian Media by Conan_the_Humble	May 21st, 2002 05:29:30 AM
MorGoth, I've got no idea why Australian Media is so particular in it's desire to not let the truth get in the way of a story. (notice I didn't say good story there, Aussie media rarely prints or shows a 'good' story.) They seem to go out of their way to sensationalise a story. Anyhoo, in Australia, I believe we won't be getting TTT until the 26th of December 2002 anyway. (See earlier rant...) If whoever is sending me Harry's book could drop me a line via my email address that'd be great. Does anyone know when the new Trailer for TTT is coming out? I think I saw somewhere that it was due in May, but time seems to be running out for that to be true, maybe I read it in one of our newspapers, eh? Cheers.
Betrayed! Denied! Distraught! by AliceInWonderlnd	May 21st, 2002 08:55:40 AM
I vanish for two weeks and nobody misses me! (Bursts into unloved tears). Actually, I have a copy of Harry's book signed by Harry to Alice in Wonderland in my possession (I saw him do his thang in London) so it would have been cool to send that around, had I had presence of mind to suggest it. Maybe it's still doable. Anyhoo, I've been on holiday in France and unexpectedly denied internet connection, hence my absence. But I saw AOTC and I have to agree with Mithril and BG, I really liked it. The dialogue and delivery isn't that hot, but the plot was tight and the design and effects were imaginative and well-used (in the main) with none of that cutesy bollocks that so marred the first one. I approved of this movie a great deal. Still not as good as FOTR, but what the hell is? (Shrugs). Anyway, do you guys think that there will be LOTR news from Cannes? I'm ready to get back in the hype zone for the next film.
I think Harry has gone over to the Dark Side. by BG	May 23rd, 2002 05:02:38 PM
Here is a quote from Harry's rough-cut review of AOTC "The source(s) that showed it to me were tired of all my LORD OF THE RINGS stuff. They were tired of all the rhetoric about Tolkien, all the focus I had on LORD OF THE RINGS. They wanted someone outside of the ranch, outside of the
I'm not sure which is worse to return to after a long absenc by Pallando Blue	May 23rd, 2002 05:07:43 PM
Having been forgotten, or OUTRIGHT SLANDER! Envynoluvvadarth or whatever is most assuredly PAS MOI! I know, kinda my M.O. so I can't relly be too perturbed, but really now. I'd like to think I'm a little more clever than THAT wit-of-a-nit. But I'm willing to give the lad a fair chance, as it seems he's honestly trying to join the fun, albeit with an abrasive "character." Coupla tips, Ebonysteelguitar, to keep you healthy: (i) Just don't milk it, bud, cause one thing I've learned in my brief Net forgoings, anonymity without familiarity pretty much demands literal interpretations. IOW, sarcasm without audible vocal inflection isn't sarcasm, and the audience may need a cue to written "verbal" irony. (B) We knock each other about the pate, but there's the old saying, "No one hits my little brother but me," ya know? (3) And feel free to let your assumed "personality" slide before the joke gets too ooooold. Stick with yer reference of choice, but don't be a bore about it. Or a bore, period, please, we've got one already (and that's all I'll say about THAT). So, as one who appreciates a good rattling of the status quo, welcome! But don't piss ME off! ;~) * Now then, nice to see the damn site operable once more. I figure it was an AOTC thing. Let me also join the modest chorus singing the modest praises of Ep II! A friend surprised us with midnight tix, after he'd already secured us with noon-Thurs. tix, so I had an unplanned massive twice-in-12-hours AOTC-injection. I quite dug it! It's not without flaws, and certainly lacking the, I dunno, class and dignity shall we say of LOTR (tho comparison, I think, is unfair to both franchises--they're doing different things, like a jacket v. gloves), but I'd say it is 75-80% Oh Hell Yeah STAR WARS! Liked it even better the second time, tho who's to say that's not the 4 hours' sleep talkin. Probably see it a 3rd time, on digital projection. ...But hell if I'm even going to LOOK in the SW boards here, holy crap I can only imagine. My best defense of the flick comes from this I-swear-it's-true anecdote: Waiting in the noon line, a bit bleary-eyed from the night before but eager, we talked some with a group of other folks who were seeing it for the first time. They had friends inside seeing the 9:30, and were desperately avoiding spoilers, but dying for fannish reviews, and frantically awaiting those of their friends'. We just smugly nodded, smiled, said "Oh, you'll be pleased." Finally the theater started emptying, and the group's friends found them in line (middlish-front). Guy In Line [breathlessly]: "Well?!?" Beaming Friend [thrusting arms to the sky, crows loudly]: "NO ONE FARTS ON JAR-JAR!" ...And the entire line erupts in cheers and applause lasting almost ten minutes! :-D * Work STILL jamming up all my time (stealing this half-hour SHHHHHH keep it down, will ya?) but looking forward to getting back in reg'lar.... next week? Namarie!
Aw FRACK it's all HOSED?? by Pallando Blue	May 23rd, 2002 05:14:15 PM
Sonuvva... well, then I have no idea what anyone's posted anywhere since early May that's not sequential at the bottom. Including me! >:P That's it! Have a nice weekend! And someone please FIX THIS or make me.... FRIST..?
elanor... by BG	May 24th, 2002 12:08:34 AM
...I hope you're right about Harry. We'll soon see when all the AOTC hoopla dies down. I guess I'm just annoyed that a couple of news worthy stories have been completely ignored. *** I thought the CGI Yoda was fine, but it disappoints me that GL seems to have abandoned all other SFX methods in favour of CGI, CGI and more CGI. As good as CGI is these days I think there are still times that other SFX techniques may produce better results. Many of the animatronic creatures from the original trilogy look more realistic than their CGI counterparts (e.g. Jabba the Hut). The puppet Yoda from Empire is able to display more character and emotion than the AOTC Yoda. The bit where Yoda rummages through Luke's stuff and fights with R2D2 is one of the best and most memorable moments in the whole saga. I doubt the CGI Yoda could have pulled off the same thing with the same level of total believability. The way Yoda knocks R2D2's access panel shut with his staff and gives a little self satisfied grunt and nod of his head is just brilliant and cracks me up every time. As far as Gollum is concerned, I'm sure he'll be as believable as the CGI Yoda, which is good enough to keep the audience in Middle Earth.
I've said it before... by AliceInWonderlnd	May 24th, 2002 09:18:53 AM
But I do believe the non-realistic dialogue and overly restrained new SW performances are a directorial thing. And it's a shame, since a lot of things were beautifully realised, but the two characters that are meant to be holding up all the human drama are hung out to dry. It's sad, really. Oh well. Yoda and Christopher Lee and Obi-Wan were deeply cool. So no change there then. But we do need LOTR news. In fact, I think that since AOTC was good but not great, we need an awful LOT of LOTR news, since (quelle surprise) the fanboys are giving it an absolute slating on this and other message boards, as far as I can tell. And I don't get it, since it knocks spots of TPM. Oh well. Give me Gollum or give me death!
Giving AOTC a slating, I mean... by AliceInWonderlnd	May 24th, 2002 09:23:03 AM
Even CHUD has gotten repetitive and spiteful. Thing is, I can see why you'd hate it the same way I could see why you'd love it.
Attack of the Dufusytes by DufusyteII	May 25th, 2002 12:02:44 AM
Saw AOTC. The good: Visual FX, plus the haunting plot ambiguities of good/evil, as one wonders, Are the clones/stormtroopers a good thing or a bad thing? When Dooku says he is fighting against the empire because it is ruled by the Sith, should we agree with him, or fight against him? Whose side are we on? Whose side are we supposed to be on? In AOTC, we are fighting on the side of the clones/stormtroopers, on the side of the Sith Emperor, on the side of the Empire (even though it still bears the name of a Republic). This ambiguity of good/evil was wonderful. Lucas loves plot twists and hidden identity twists, like when Vader says, "I am your father," or when Leia is revealed as Luke's sister, or when the dude with the explosive device in his hand in Hutt's audience (rotj) turns out to be Leia in disguise, or when the mad man in the desert (new hope) turns out to be Obi-wan himself, or when the green munchkin in the swamp (esb) turns out to be Yoda himself. Lucas loves to play on Hidden Identities and Identity-twists. In AOTC, he starts right off with Amidala turning out to be a decoy. But the greatest Identity Twist Lucas is playing with in AOTC, is the identity of the Empire itself. In AOTC, the Empire and the Stormtroopers are the good guys. That is the most interesting thing about AOTC. ***** Also good was the inferred commentary on current US politics: give the emperor unprecedented powers to fight evil, "And I will lay them down as soon as this crisis is over." (yeah right) *** And now for the bad: the original three SW films were carried by the personal charm of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher. They are simply very engaging people, very loveable, and we care alot about them and what happens to them, hence their adventures are exciting. In Ep1 and Ep2, the cast is missing that kind of magic. Natalie Portman (Amidala) is ernest, and certainly does a sincere portrayal of her character, but her personal magnetism is lacking, such that we really wouldn't care if she got swallowed by one of those beasts in the arena. Anakin, both in Ep1 and Ep2, is a pest, and we are actively rooting for him to be devoured by some beast. Jar-Jar is also on everyone's Must Die list. The only people we really care about were the honorable QuiGon (Liam) who sadly got the ax, and perhaps the happy-go-lucky Ewan (Young Obi) who always looks like he is about to break into song since Moulin Rouge. Anakin's mother is perhaps the most endearing character/actress in Ep1 and Ep2, and yet she too got the ax, and hardly had any screen time in both films. So basically, the blah actors (Amidala, Anakin, JarJar) in Ep1-2 are center stage far too much, and the endearing characters that we are rooting for (QuiGon, Mrs Anakin, Ewan to a certain extent) get less screen time and usually die swift deaths. *** Mind you, this cannot be blamed entirely on the script/directing. Harrison and Carrie were charming even despite the horrible script/directing in the original three films. It is a matter of personal charm of the actor/actress. Natalie Portman just does not endear herself to us like Carrie did. Natalie was cast because she was reputedly "hot looking," but it is better to have a chubby faced Carrie that charms the audience than a sleek Natalie who comes across as somewhat icy. Carrie had the "girl Next-door" thing going for her. Natalie has the "I'm cramming for the bar exam, don't bother me now please" thing radiating from her. So, fault #1: unfortunate casting of Natalie as main female - does not connect with audience. Fault #2: there is no charming male lead like Harrison in Ep 1-2. If Ewan makes a romantic move for Amidala in Ep3, then it could get interesting. Otherwise, no one cares for the male lead (Anakin), and it is boring to watch Ewan on the sidelines. *** Since Dufusyte always tries to be constructive, I'd recommend, in Ep1, casting an older child (dunno if I can recommend anyone in particular. The kid from 6th Sense / A.I. seems to be the young actor du jour, and perhaps he would have done well enough as young Anakin in Ep1. How old was he when it was filmed?) Also in Ep1, Jar-Jar had to die, and QuiGon should have survived and taken Jar-Jar's place in the Senate in Ep2. SomeBody Else should have been cast as Amidala, dunno any young actress off hand...Clare Danes always gets the audience rooting for her, now wouldn't that have been a blast, with her as Amidala - yes, I like it. Sign her up. Heh. In Ep2, the Anakin actor can stay, since he is supposed to be a pest and her serves that purpose admirably, but in Ep2 there should be a subplot of Ewan also falling for Amidala, and show us the love triangle already in operation during Ep2. Woohoo! *** Ok, hind-sight is 20-20. Now if only Lucas had the good fortune of Dufusyte posting on his boards during the pre-production phase rather than in the post release phase. Heh. In Ep3 I want Ewan and Anakin to vie for the love of Amidala. Jar-Jar (since Lucas has kept him alive so far), must die an excruciating death early in Ep3 to get him out of the way, and to serve as a public apology on Lucas-behalf, as if to acknowledge that he was all wrong about JarJar from the very beginning. Apology accepted. I want an extremely large animal to place its foot on JarJar, like in Bambi vs Godzilla. It does not even need to be an important plot element since JarJar does not deserve that. He can just be walking along somewhere, and suddenly a giant foot comes down, and then cut to the next scene where Obi says to Amidala, "I'm sad to hear of Senator JarJar's untimely death," and then they talk of something else, and we hear no more about/from JarJar ever ever again. *** Another good thing about Ep1-2 is that since they are prequels, Lucas can count on the audience always knowing the future. That is what makes the clones/stormtroopers so interesting in Ep2. It is what makes Anakin himself bearable. Even little Bobba Fett (who, incidentally, was much more endearing than little Anakin from Ep1) captivates our attention simply because we know his future destiny. Lucas takes full advantage of this peculiar cinematic arrangement to play off the notoriety of the original films - masterfully done. ***** But in another sense, the plot of Ep1-2-3 is constrained by the eventual situation in Ep4-5-6, such that Lucas knows he has to connect the dots. This causes a nightmare of plot restrictions in Ep1-2-3, and we see that tons of scenes in Ep1-2-3 are really "forced" to be there, in order to connect the dots toward Ep4-5-6. It is similar to the lotr films in that PJ is forced to show plenty of scenes simply because they are in the book. Similarly, Luca's hand is forced, since he is constrained to connect the dots leading up to Ep4-5-6. Thus the movies in both series are not at liberty to become indulgently character-driven, but rather they must obey a strictly plot-driven framework. To PJ's credit is his spot-on casting; all the actors and actresses in Fellowship were a direct hit (even Viggo, considering how the role of Aragorn is projected in the film). Liv also does quite well in endearing herself to the audience, certainly much moreso than Natalie does. It's funny that I did not connect with the characters in Fellowship, since the actors themselves are quite engaging people - Elijah, Liv, Sean, Samwise (Astin whatever his name is). In Fellowship, I got the very subtle and unsettling suspicion that the film was somehow sneering at the audience, as though it were a parody of itself and if we thought it was a masterpiece the joke was on us. I think that is why I did not bond with the film. In AOTC, the film was definitely sincere, and Natalie in particular is very sincere in her role, but the charisma of the actors/actresses in lead roles was just not there. And finally, as a contrast, Moulin Rouge, is a film that appears on the surface to be wildly self-mocking, but in its soul you can see that it is a tremendously sincere movie, and it definitely did reduce Dufusyte to tears on several occasions. In this regard Moulin Rouge is the opposite of Fellowship, in that Fellowship presented itself outwardly as deathly serious, but inside you got the sense it was self-mocking, whereas Moulin was outwardly self-mocking, but inside you could sense that it was deathly serious. And as for AOTC, Lucas sets out to make a Flash Gordon style serial, "The Adventures of Swash Bucklers XYZ with some mythology thrown in with Shakespearean Identity Twists," and as such he succeeds, though what it really needed was more endearing actors/actresses in main roles - it is really a matter of casting more than anything, for AOTC.
Dufy? by Conan_the_Humble	May 26th, 2002 04:04:47 AM
Did you mean to post this on an SW TB by any chance? I realise I started this whole commenting on AOTC in an LOTR talkback, (something traditionally seen as a no-no) you however take this one step further and rave about SW and criticise LOTR? If you consider yourself something of a movie reviewer, I would suggest a unique angle. Try commenting on a movie without denigrating something else. Neither LOTR or AOTC is a particularly good comparison of each of other. About the only thing they have in common is the time frame in which they were released and the (relatively) similar locations in which they were made. I have read your exhaustive and pretentious posts before, "Now if only Lucas had the good fortune of Dufusyte posting on his boards during the pre-production phase rather than in the post release phase." WTF? If GL can still not make a 'good' movie after all his experience, than I have rather severe doubts that an AICN TBer' with an overinflated opinion of his own abilities is really going to make much of a difference. If you meant the above post as a joke, than I would suggest you stick to movie reviewing, because writing comedy is definitely not your strong point... Cheers.
Moving On Up by AliceInWonderlnd	May 26th, 2002 04:46:45 PM
Regarding AOTC, actually I saw it again and what surprised me, especially after reading all the shit on this site about it, was that my opinion hadn't changed one iota from my first viewing. There's a visual richness on the screen which gives the fantasy world we're being shown this amazing vitality. The design and effects (especially the sound) are awesome, and apart from the crap writing and directing (and the fact that Portman seems to have died and her performance is being recreated via CGI) I do like it. I think it avoids a good 80% of the flaws of TPM. Dufy - (insert rant here about stupid-ass FOTR comments, which are then painstakingly, cruelly, and yet amusingly scythed through with razor wit by me, and then tack on smartmouthed jibe about failing to understand why you'd spend years filming something like LOTR in the wilds of New Zealand in an effort to mock yourself in your deep self-loathing, but could kind of see why you'd do it in order to mock Dufusyte. A rant that I would write myself, gentle readers (and Dufy), were it not for the realisation that Life Is Simply Too Short.)Elanor - yeah, I like this plan. Let us decamp to the daft non-LOTR TB which will, however, take less time to load than this one. Until Dufy starts up again with his novel sized posts (I trust he will be joining us) and our little lost trolls notice that we have relocated to front page accommodations. Speaking of which - where are they on the AOTC TB? I don't see ElfThriller or GunsBlazing or any of those losers. I'm kind of worried about the little ElfFiller, since he's clearly too stupid to survive long on his own.
If any Tailenders are lost... by BG	May 27th, 2002 12:28:35 AM
...we're over at http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/ display.cgi?id=12349
Just so SOME of this TB will make sense...from the Archives of C by morGoth	Sep 18th, 2004 05:00:55 PM
Thanks for the link SP. Pretty spiffy articles about Aragorn and I like his observation about American

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