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HERC's Seen Post-Sweeps BUFFY!!

I'm finally first! Buffy needs to... by Barrymore	Mar 4th, 2002 05:39:34 AM
get something going. This whole season has been pretty pointless (WHO exactly IS the bad guy?) The Slayer is only as good as her villain. Over at Angel, they're kicking butt and taking names. P.S. Please Joss, get back to being the main Buffy dude! Next year, maybe? Please?
First! by Led Gopher	Mar 4th, 2002 05:41:39 AM
so do i get some kind of prize?
Ooops sorry, not first... by Led Gopher	Mar 4th, 2002 05:43:24 AM
but i 2nd what Barrymore said.
Oh... the angst... by tasslehoff	Mar 4th, 2002 06:08:04 AM
Does anyone else think this is just going to be an extremely depressing episode? I've got to admit, of all the sub plots happening on Buffy at the moment, the wedding has been the least interesting... but, how the heart is going to cry to see the look on Anya's face when Xander leaves...
More comedy, less tragedy by reb55_0	Mar 4th, 2002 06:09:37 AM
The fun and funky Buffy is on semi-hiatus it would seem.....a shame. The FX reruns are showing sooo many good bits in the previous episodes...the Xander twin should show up for the wedding as well...oh wait, he got morphed back together with the original....dang. The wedding melee would be soooo fun with old characters from various episodes kicking the crap out of each other.....can Joss not SEE the massive potential? Ok...so maybe most of the demon-like attendies are staked and all, but still...the remaining ones should be present for the happy and yet bloodshedding event....fun for humans and demons alike. Oh well...guess the show's got a dramatic phase to it right now (the main story archs ARE kinda maudlin - sad wedding future, man-less Buff, no Giles at all, etc) Maybe some good old killings will put Buffy and the Scooby Squad back into happy spirits yet again. One order or funky fun free-for-all fracases, please! :)
RILEY IS A VAMP by AlienBoy	Mar 4th, 2002 06:25:02 AM
1) In last week's ep we only saw him and his wife at night. 2) He smelled the burger-smell on Buffy, just like the vamp in the teaser! Aw hell, I'm probably wrong. About the current season though, I think it's great that the creative team is trying something new, and not doing the old big-bad's-causing-the-apoc alypse(again)-we've-gotta- save-the-world(again) arc. Besides, if anyone, Warren's the "big bad". Or at least "somewhat bad". Now that the three nerds have crossed the line into murder, they're probably gonna do something REAL bad soon. But I have faith that Jonathan will turn to the side of good by season's end - he was obviously troubled by the murder last we saw of them. We'll see. And oh yeah - I think Joyce is returning soon. Kinda.
if Spike is so EVIL then why'd he save buffy from the Layaar by boomzilla8	Mar 4th, 2002 07:57:16 AM
he even helped Tara when he said he didn't care what happened. "more observations from FX reruns"
The spark is out by Stasaluck	Mar 4th, 2002 08:46:59 AM
I loved Buffy the vamp slayer but it's time the show gets canceled because, 1. It's been moved to a station nobody watches, 2. the stories aren't good anymore the first 3 seasons and the 5th seasons were good but now it's getting stupid. 4. I doubt they want to do the show anymore it had a good 6 seasons more than most shows. I think this show should take a tip from X-Files and cancel this year.
so the joke of the daughters name is... by Dmann	Mar 4th, 2002 08:53:00 AM
Sarah Harris? its a mis spelled palindrome....Sarah Haras? Get it!! Sarah Haras? WOOO!!! hee hee
Uncle Rory??? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by Voice O. Reason	Mar 4th, 2002 09:09:37 AM
Does this mean he's finally out of jail!
duh by ArchDiver	Mar 4th, 2002 09:27:02 AM
of course Anya was offered her old job. It was the logical ending, and it was foretold. So it was written, so shall it be! However, the burning question is DID SHE EXCEPT?!? AD out
Boo frickin' hoo by Chocky	Mar 4th, 2002 10:08:25 AM
I'm enjoying this season thoroughly. You want to see a show that's past its prime, turn to the Simpsons. I can't believe y'all truly think that prior seasons of Buffy never had a piece of bad acting or writing, a substandard plot, etc. (or any other good television show. Even the Prisoner had its bad moments). I can clearly recall being embarrassed by moments of older Buffy seasons but I lived through it. People dump on the show for having Buffy work at Doublemeat, yet it's perfectly OK for Wesley to talk to a fast-food drive-through oracle??? WTF!! The supposed consensus that this season sucks and is far inferior to Angel, is a joke (kinda like saying that in the months before the last presidential election, the general consensus was that Bush should be President). David Boreanaz can't act his way out of a paper bag and Holst is a lame-o good/bad guy. Not saying that Angel sucks by any stretch, I'm actually watching it on a regular basis this year . . . but I think a lot of you have determined early on that Buffy sucks this year, and you strive with all your mental powers to disregard the good and magnify the bad in this season. And I have obviously chosen to do the reverse . . . which means bully for me because I'm actually enjoying the show. Bwahahahahaha!
Buffy should be a dominatrix by Chocky	Mar 4th, 2002 10:10:04 AM
After watching and rewatching the past 5 or 6 episodes (with relish) I realized that Buffy is the pervert, not Spike. Think about his mostly vanilla sex with Harmony and then the Buffy Bot. OK that was gross, but there wasn't any bondage or violence. He got Warren to make the BuffyBot very vanilla, very goody-good. Then after he starts having sex with the actual Buffy, and makes several comments about following her lead, about her leaving bite marks on him, etc. In her dream montage after finding Katrina's body, she is clearly the one who's the Top. One gets the feeling that Spike is merely trying to deliver what he thinks Buffy wants -- crazy violent sex (plus bondage and god knows what else). Which leads me to what Buffy's next job should be: Dominatrix. Think about it, she's really good at beating men up and emasculating them. Every exec in Southern California would be standing in line for the special treatment. The Summers household would be rolling in cash.
How about this... by Silver_Joo	Mar 4th, 2002 10:34:55 AM
They should get Freddie Prinze Jnr to do a guest spot as a butt-fucking demon. He could attempt to anally assault all of Sunnydale, cos the smug grins and piss poor acting of everyone but Buffy and Spike needs a good seeing to. This show certainly needs something if it is to last another season...
More ridiculous predictions by 93curr	Mar 4th, 2002 11:19:06 AM
Anybody else think that it would be cool to give Willow and Tara their own show once Buffy gets cancelled? Hey, if Joss (is it considered rude to refer to someone I've never met by his first name?) can do a futuristic science fiction space opera without aliens, why not a show about a couple of witches who don't do any magick? The two of them (along with the Miss Kitty Fantastico-bot, built by the Warren-bot) and maybe Spike, could... well, actually I have no idea what they could do. But I'd watch.
Anya by General Idea	Mar 4th, 2002 11:39:34 AM
The actress playing Anya really needs to eat something. I always thought she was cute, but she's looking like Calista Flockheart lately. Mabye it's been part of the makeup job lately to show how crazy the wedding has been making her, but she looks like hell.
I thought the joke of the names was... by gillybean	Mar 4th, 2002 11:40:04 AM
That it was Josh (Joss) and Sarah (Sarah Michelle Gellar). But that's not really all that funny, is it?
93curr by SallyHousecoat	Mar 4th, 2002 12:01:50 PM
I think you and I might be the only viewers of the Willow and Tara variety hour. They could have a crossover with Voyager, the current season X-Files, and Charmed. That would rake in the viewers. Hmmm...Willow, Tara and Piper. Now that might get the viewers.
Beating back the drooling, early-morning perverts from the sanct by alferdog01	Mar 4th, 2002 12:07:36 PM
What's up with the early board getting taken over by retards? Does anyone really need to hear Chocky's asinine theories and dominatrix fetishes, and silver's, ugh, anal fantasies? Um, yeah, Buffy's was the only sexually aggressive one in that relationship. Um, except that Spike had the handcuffs and had a fetish for doing it in the Bronze, on the front lawn, and in other public places. And, yeah, Buffy should really become a prostitute. That would make the show a lot better. Idiot. Oh, and yeah, Angel sucks now even though you watch the show regularly because the villain is lame. Hello? The show you're so ardently defending, Buffy, is limping along with Warren as the bid bad, and he sucks way more than Holtz ever did. If you want to trumpet one show over the other, at least pick an argument that makes a little bit of sense, you know, that a five-year-old couldn't refute.
Ats kicks BtVS ass by Spike fan	Mar 4th, 2002 12:28:36 PM
Its a far superior show where they actualy look at the consequences and actions of a person.While the charachters are 3 dimensional and interesting compare that to last weeks BtVS in which we got 1-d charachters and Riley was worshipped by the writers whose egos are still not over fan rejection of him. On BtVS Anya's murderous past has been whitewashed for comic relief. Thats like saying Stalin killings were funny.## Buffy is the most unsympathetic jerk around who seems to treat people like crap. Dawn just hangs around being bratty. And after how they ruined dark Willows interesting addiction to power story in favour for a lame drug anology is quite possibly the worst thing the show has done.## Only Spike is really an interesting charachter now. W Whether he is good or evil or loves or does not love Buffy strikes debate and JM plays him well. But he is really the only good thing the show has going for it. This season is bad. The quality of writing is down and interesting situations are ignored for after school specials and charachter worship.
same talkback, new week... by kobayashi	Mar 4th, 2002 01:11:21 PM
some things never change. whine, whine, whine... throw in a few perverted sexual refecences... then whine some some...
Angel & Buffy Spoiler Follows by Spoons	Mar 4th, 2002 01:50:15 PM
Big Angel & Buffy related spoiler Warning ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Okay. The word on the street is that in tonight's episode of Angel, everybody's favourite rogue demon hunter bites it (or at least appears to). If the Wesmeister has indeed shuffled off his mortal coil, do we think that HE could be the Big Scooby Death Herc's been teasing us with lo these many months? Questions? Comments? Vague misgivings?
a dominatrix is not a prostitute by Chocky	Mar 4th, 2002 01:55:48 PM
not necessarily anyway . . . as long as there are no actual sex acts involved, a dominatrix can whip away with abandon. p.s. I was being TONGUE IN CHEEK. duh.
To Johnnyloveshadji by 93curr	Mar 4th, 2002 02:26:00 PM
The Willow and Tara VARIETY hour?? Well, that's not exactly what I had in mind. I mean, I'd enjoy the heck out of it. Alyson Hannigan singin' and dancin' week after week? Who wouldn't love that? But I don't think that Mutant Enemy has enough of a budget for the wild horses required to get her to do it.
There is a reason for the perversion... by Silver_Joo	Mar 4th, 2002 02:31:09 PM
To be honest, this show is dead. We might as well create our own enjoyment out of humour than go in search of fulfillment from BTVS. Angel is being neglected in favour of the inferior (post season 4) Buffy, and it means that it may not continue as the casual fan of that show gets bored. Die-hard fans won't keep Angel alive, and Buffy should be laid to rest. Most of this season's plots and ideas have been done to death, the teleplays seem phoned in. Depressing.
We see Uncle Rory? by BurninBullwinkle	Mar 4th, 2002 02:43:38 PM
LoL! That's been one of my favorite recurring jokes for a long time... I wonder if he gives them something in the taxidermy line. Oh, and am I the only one that thought Bruce Campbell would have been perfect to play him?
Previous thoughts... by Thalya	Mar 4th, 2002 03:00:06 PM
I thought the whole point of this season was that it was dead. Ordinary life is killing everybody, not some supernatural entity doing the bad work this time. The thing is, and I pray this happens: THEY LOSE. Anyway, here's a little rumination I had way at the end of last TB that might spark some better debate: "Dawn's more likely to be the BSD as in vamped: All the Way had a purpose in showing her own sorta death wish, and if Giles hadn't shown up, she very well would've been vamped willingly. Now a vamp with Key blood would be quite interesting, and you know how bitchy she's been all season? Perfect personality for a vamp, don't ya think? I'd also like to know what's up with why Spike prefers food in addition to blood whereas Angel, the souled-one, is a straight-blood vamp."
Interesting... by Absolutefreeze	Mar 4th, 2002 03:05:21 PM
After reading ArchDiver Talk Back...I just thought of something. Now if Anya is asked by D'Hoffryn if she wants her 'job' back (after seeing the so called future)..and she takes it...the HUMAN Anya will 'die' and become DEMON Anyanka...the foretold Scooby Death? Just a thought.
warren is the big bad by THE BAUMER	Mar 4th, 2002 03:07:12 PM
warren is an evil genius the most dangerous kind of enemy the superhero has. he has invented robots a freeze gun and an invisibility gun.plus he has killed a living human being and almost had the slayer confess to murder.the nerds are there for the funny but what they have done and are capable of doing makes them as dangerous as any big bads in seasons past.
To Thalya: by 93curr	Mar 4th, 2002 03:11:55 PM
I figured the 'Spike eating food' thing was part of the character background. Spike's always reverted to human ways unless he reminds himself not to. He's grabbed crucifixes thoughtlessly, he's started to walk out into the sunshine without thinking. He watched 'Passions' for the powers-that-be's sake. He's the guy who has to keep reminding himeself that he's evil. Otherwise he forgets.
Spoons,You Son Of A Bitch by Cardiff Giant	Mar 4th, 2002 03:20:10 PM
I was trying to avoid Angel spoilers for tonight, as it is the best freaking show on television. Now thanks to you, I am heading to leoffonline to feed my addiction.
Buffy, buffy, oh dear by Nearside	Mar 4th, 2002 03:28:15 PM
To start: 1) I hate the way people trash their favorite shows when they go off the rails even a little bit. 2) I hate people who say Buffy has jumped the shark, as if anyone really cares about that stuff anymore. But- I do think Buffy has lost something, somewhere. Now it's not beyond anyone working on the show to pull something amazing out at the last minute and just blow us all away. It's getting a bit late for that now in the current Buffy season, but I have Faith enough that we'll still get what we're all expecting, and that's some smart plotting that will leave us all with our jaws open. That said, it's obvious that Angel has had an edge since the start of the current season. Sure, there's been a few slow eps, but minute for minute, it's been a much tighter and cooler show. I've read in places where Joss et al have said that the Big Bad this season is something like Real Life, with responsibilities and consequences of ones own actions being the BB. That said, I even miss Glory right now...
more thoughts by Thalya	Mar 4th, 2002 03:42:02 PM
Hmmm...part of Buffy's growing up...finally realizing she can't have a normal life and existing within all the confines of everyone else? Consequences?...being a bad role model for Dawn but only realizes it too late?.. ..either by Dawn becoming Slayer-like or getting vamped? hmm... yawn
BSD by 93curr	Mar 4th, 2002 03:48:43 PM
I've avoided publicly stating my thoughts on the BSD (except for some Miss Kitty jokes) 'cause 1-no one could give a rat's ass what I think and 2-I haven't been at all convinced that there would be one (I don't consider Jonathan to be a scoob, even by the most liberal definition possible). BUT I'm joining with the massive throng that's pretty sure that Dawn being vamped is now damn likely. It would be just like the writers to start to have Buffy get her afterlife together, then have everything that Buffy sacrificed herself for lost. Not to mention how Spike's (in my oft-stated humble opinion) move from evil to amoral would make it almost impossible for anyone to stake her (thinks Buffy: 'cause maybe she could not be so bad after all...maybe..please?). How this would play out in season seven (why do they call something that goes through THREE seasons... oh, never mind) I wouldn't care to guess (assuming Trachtenberg is signed -which I believe she is- through next year). But it sure would put a strain on Buffy and William's feelings for eah other. And it would allow the writers to have a shocking ending while still having the three couples (four if you count Miss Kitty and Mr. Gordo) back together.
BSD by Spoons	Mar 4th, 2002 03:55:06 PM
Well, Herc's definition may be broader than yours, but he's already said that it's not Jonathan and it's not Giles.
about Buffy being as good as its Big Bad... by arkhan77	Mar 4th, 2002 03:55:42 PM
it has been posited here that Buffy is only as good as her Big Bad of the season. what i find wierd about this statement is that it is being made as a reproach, as in "there is no big bad this season so buffy sucks". seeing as how most of you just don't get it, let me explain: up until now, Buffy herself has always existed, it seems, in relation to her "enemy". Buffy has come to define herself through her enemies. it is a known fact that any revolutionary movement needs an enemy to justify its existence. in other words, good only exists because there is evil. think about it a little more, and you come to the conclusion that to fight the enemy is to become the enemy. good and evil, Buffy and the Big Bad, need each other to justify their lives. however, this is the real world. we need to define ourselves not according to the "enemy" but according to our own sense of being; or else one might be caught in adolescent fantasy/idealism for their entire life. that is what is happenning to Buffy right now. she is growing up. something that is very, very difficult for any of us. those that do not learn, evolve, grow up, are condemned to live their lives as mama's boys, as Nerds of Doom. so that is why this season is not as bad as you guys try to make it out to be. it is only different. Buffy is growing up, and you guys are hurt about it...
can't wait for tomorrow nite. by a goonie	Mar 4th, 2002 03:59:40 PM
but then again, what else is new?
What arkhan77 said by Nearside	Mar 4th, 2002 04:08:57 PM
I'm not sure that I was personally saying that any season of Buffy is only as good as it's BB, but that's not a bad way of putting it. The Geek Trio are fantastic- in fact, I'm just upset that they've not been in more episodes this season. No complaints there, not really. And as for the Buffy growing up thing, it's good, I'm enjoying it. My argument is that the seasons seems- unfocused. The BB, coincidentally perhaps, gave the seasons previous to this some degree of focus- but I have to remember how it always seemed to be up in the air until the last third of the season when everything came together and made so much sense. And I'm sure that'll happen with this season too.
Off-topic but Sherilynn Fenn is playing Harley Quinn on the new by holidill	Mar 4th, 2002 04:21:36 PM
Didn't know what other talkback to mention this on, since AICN doesn't have the scoop yet. I saw it on Dark Horizons.
Anya is losing it. by Blackeagle	Mar 4th, 2002 04:40:36 PM
For a while Anya was one of my favorite characters - and was rightfully brought into continuing character cast pretty quickly. But as someone mentioned earlier, she has gone anorexic plus she is now blonder than Buffy, plus she has acquired the mannorisms of a speedfreak. Xander, on the other hand is really showing is true age (30s) and appears to be eating both his and Anya doublemeat palace combos. Lotsa meat on that boy.
Season 6 is decent, and more people watch UPN than WB by Belou	Mar 4th, 2002 05:34:22 PM
IT IS A FACT THAT MORE PEOPLE WATCH UPN THAT THE WB BY AN AVERAGE OF 1 MILLION PEOPLE. Anyway, although season 6 isn't the best, it's still pretty good. The reason that a lot of people don't like it is because it has no Main Villain (i.e Glory). I think this is something that is very needed. The show would seem so played-out if they followed the same formula that they have the past 5 seasons. But for Season 7, I would expect a Big Bad to come. BUFFY IS THE BEST SHOW AND TOTALLY BETTER THAN ANGEL aka the show where david boreanaz can't act and theres a f*ckin' driveway hamburger talking.
I'm new to Buffy -- is this as good as it gets? Because it& by Drak_Tanner	Mar 4th, 2002 06:36:09 PM
Maybe this is a bad season, based on comments I've seen, but so far, I've been utterly bored by every episode so far. All they seem to do is sit around and talk, plus the occasional trite fight scene with some ridiculous-looking demon. I can see the potential there, some of the characters are great, and it's funny once in a while, but... really, is it worth my time?
This is NOT as good as it gets -- watch the reruns on F/X by OMightyIsis	Mar 4th, 2002 07:41:23 PM
to see the show before it's 90210:The College Years phase. Alferdog hit it on the head: Life as the Big Bad is not making for compelling Buffy. This show has always been about the metaphor of fighting life's demons, not the reality of it. And as silly and annoying as Glory was, at least she brought the gang together and served to bring out the best in the Scooby Gang. I think the show lost it's way with the unnecessary (except for season 5) addition of Dawn, the unnecessary (except for one very special episode) killing off of Joyce, and Giles's unfortunately neccessary for him leaving on a jet plane. With those three things the show seems to have lost it's purpose and direction and not in a good "but it's supposed to be that way" kind of way.
u don't understand by b_a 4eva	Mar 4th, 2002 07:54:36 PM
Drak_Tanner u don't quite get it. To understand this season, u have to have seen the last 5 seasons. Many of the comments refer back to previous occurences that you obviously wouldn't get otherwise. I think they are trying to explore something new. The writers are leading up to something great and u have to wait patiently but the writers always make it worth it in the end! Watch Buffy on FX at 6 and 7 if you can. I will admit that the first three seasons were better. But i am sure this season is going to surprise me!
IF ANYA IS THE BB... by Sweetpea	Mar 4th, 2002 09:26:53 PM
then we might get some conflict between her and the gang. I hope something interesting starts happening soon. I love the show but the older seasons seemed to have more of a balance of everything and it seemed to move along alot faster. This season just seems to have dragged. If that is the point of this season I just hope that it will all come together in the end. Please Joss & Gang - don't let us down! Maybe I just need to watch the episode "Restless" just one more time for clues - I still don't get the cheese man...
Cheese Guy by Nearside	Mar 4th, 2002 10:15:37 PM
Joss has said that he meant nothing, but you can't trust that man.... when he said that Buffy's resurrection would be earned, he meant 'urned' (that weird urn thing used in the ritual). The guy is a genius, if slightly unbalanced in the best possible way. And any hints about the Big Scooby Death indicated that it would be someone who was technically, at some point in time, part of the Scooby Gang past or present. Wes. Damn.
Right now, this very minute....... by Smugbug	Mar 4th, 2002 10:58:18 PM
if you were to ask me which show is fully developed in the areas of entertainment, character development, and compelling plot - Angel would win, hands down. Joss' goals were to make it so that Angel would have legs of it's own to stand on - and he's done a damn fine job this season, hitting that goal and then some. Buffy seems as lost as it's "adjusting to adulthood" characters. I'm tiring of Dawn's incessant whining, especially. And I'm really wondering how the hell does Willow and Dawn afford them nights out to the Bronze? Let alone, pay for garbage pickup, groceries, etc. Isn't Dawn old enough to take up a part-time job? Now wouldn't that be interesting? BTW: how is Dawn's school? Homework? Wouldn't it be cool to know if Dawn had this incredibly high IQ and could actually apply it? Where does Tara live? Does she work now? You see I see it this way, when I have these above thoughts swimming about in my head AS I'm watching Buffy, it means....the show ain't doin' the job of maintaining my interest. Not a good sign. However, with Angel, I'm too busy getting sucked into the plot, staying up right alongside the characters, that I can't deviate from the action and drama (and comedy).
Life issues .....~yawn~ by RedStars	Mar 4th, 2002 11:08:31 PM
The reason I watch Buffy is to ignore my own boring life. If I wanted to watch someone stress about paying bills then I would just look in the mirror. And as far as the BB question, with so few eps left it really won't have as big of an impact as if we knew all along.
BUFFY FAN CLUB of HOUSTON by ruyen	Mar 4th, 2002 11:24:25 PM
BUFFY FAN CLUB of HOUSTON Email us if interested in being on the mailing list with other Houston fans of Buffy. It is a way for people to meet other Buffy fans to talk and hang out with. Newsletters are frequently sent out as well. -ruyen buffyfch@hotmail.com ------------------------------ ------------- The Buffy Fan Club of Houston http://buffyfch.foolishstudios .com
sleazy G by SallyHousecoat	Mar 5th, 2002 12:49:20 AM
DITTO.
Sleazy_G: My Hero by Electric_Monk	Mar 5th, 2002 01:17:19 AM
Sleazy you are one of best herto boys out there. And because we are both here in Chicago, it makes it even extra great. There are many TB who spew hate (hidden behind an alias such as the Great One) all under the notion that having gay characters on a TV show or move is selling out. Jeebus, folks, when are you going to grow up? This is not about sex, though for some reason you so called Christians or whatever, want to make it that way. It's about who we are and what we make of our lives and the ones who surround us. If you want to believe I'll burn in hell cause I'm queer well go ahead. I'll wave to you as join me, sweet cheeks, cause you're hate will get you sent to hell just as quick. Sleazy_G and guys who have no problems dealing with gay men, are true hero's to me. They put the macho bullshit aside and have realized that we are all the same, when you look in the mirror. Some day, I hope to meet him and thank him personally for taking up the flame. Get on with your life. And fight a battle you can win.
is Buffy gonna get darker or was that just an empty promise? by FromHell	Mar 5th, 2002 01:25:54 AM
I haven't seen this episode and I probably wont get to till weekend so Im saying this now. We're well past the half way mark and NOTHING substantial has happened yet, Buffy fucked Spike, Willow's getting over her tiny little "addiction" wich was far to short to be truly called an addiction, and wot else?! I realy hate to say it cos I've defended Buffy for a while, and each episode has been good, but where are the story archs? I thought that by now we'd be getting into some serious fallout but all I see is the same old thing being done over week after week. It's not the writers or the directors or even the actors, its just the overall plan for this series was bad and isn't going anywere, I was expecting to be dazzled by now at how dark and twisted Joss was gonna make the characters. Willows power trip would've been great, now we get a tired old metaphor for drug addiction, boo friggin hoo. Buffy came back from the dead and all she seems to be doing is being bored. Xander remains exactly the same but a lot less funny than ever. Dawn has yet to develope a character of her own. Anya has little to do other than agrevate Xander. Spike has become a bitch. And Giles isn't even on the show no more. Each ep has been solid, but without a direction other than growing up or any interesting character destruction/ developement this series is starting to bore me. Damn this is depressing.
BSD by aat	Mar 5th, 2002 01:42:02 AM
according to everything i have read from herc and wando over at eonline, its not so much that someone is being killed off the show, they just wont be human anymore, i.e. dawn being vamped or anya turning back into a demon. personally i think that if spike does indeed vamp dawn, it could be just what the show needs right now to kick things up a bit.
FromHell: a small what-if? by Thalya	Mar 5th, 2002 02:42:26 AM
Could the world have fundamentally changed in some way from the brief moment that the portal was open, some sort of energy that subtly charged the Hellmouth, and since it radiates from the dead high school, it could be holding everyone back from maturing? That's a very small what-if, and it doesn't really hold with the whole theme this year of growing up because it seems everyone's making these choices of their own free will, but somehow there's got to be some overarching supernatural connection that will be revealed in 6.22. My hope is the season end will be a big failure or a big fall-into-darkness for everyone and a wake-up call as to what's been happening. Maybe the way the writers are shaking things up with a supposed lack of a Big Bad could mean this won't be a self-contained season. This could all be about Buffy's maturing into a real Slayer (no job, no companion, no school, etc.. (meaning Dawn and the house will have to go..), all seen as a regression in human terms could be a growth in Slayer terms) and then next season could be the identity season, finally sorting out the good and the evil while exploring the Slayer identity in depth like we've been promised since Restless. Somehow this all comes down to Buffy acknowledging the darkness in her, a battle she's fought for years but has been losing recently, esp. as brought in her relationship with Spike. The big "growing up" thing with her will be that acknowledgement and the realization that all her efforts to live a normal human life are unrealistic and have been efforts to fight her true nature (I can hear Riley and Drac saying the same thing: "Killer").
you speaketh the truth by FromHell	Mar 5th, 2002 03:08:22 AM
i too think this season will end with Buffy finaly losing the good fight. but the season seems to be treading water, just holding back to the finale, which is a weak way of constucting a whole season. I like the fact they're doing something different, but some stuff needs to happen soon. I think Buffy screwing Spike was supposed to be a bigger shock than it was, and they've held back too much with it. Spike and Buffy together should be more obsessive, brutal, dark, damaging. And as with the Willow thing it's going along at a snails pace. It's all becoming clich'e, and the characters increasingly one note. And none of the characters seem to have any edge any more, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Spike, all these characters had edge or were developing it, and now they're all soft as shit pissing and moanin about these little things over and over. I JUST WANNA SEE SOMEONE GO NUTS!!!!
by Luluca	Mar 5th, 2002 04:53:49 AM
"This is not about sex, though for some reason you so called Christians or whatever, want to make it that way." Brunt, I
Tragedy in Houston by yourdreamer	Mar 5th, 2002 08:33:09 AM
You know, I read the posts on this board almost every day, religiously if you will, never really contributing, but always pondering what everybody else is saying and deciding what is the most plausible series of events which might befall our heroes. Ever since Herc put up the new episode discussion this week, I've been excited to see this, the wedding episode. Then, looking at TVGuide online this morning, the Houston UPN has decided to pre-empt Buffy for a Rockets game and show the episode on Saturday night. I'm officially in mourning today. (and looking ahead to two weeks from today, I think UPN will be doing the same thing). Say what you will about the WB handling Buffy poorly, but at least they never pre-empted her in Houston. At least tonight I'll get to watch the Gilmore Girls and Smallville instead.***And, for my two cents, why does nobody think Xander will be the one to die (most likely by getting vamped)? Seems to me he's more likely than most of the others mentioned, just by sheer fact of his regression back into high school-ness (or even junior high) and his continued backburner status. As he is generally the "butt-monkey" and has been almost vamped several times, who's to say he won't get it?
This season by godric	Mar 5th, 2002 09:13:02 AM
I agree with a lot of what's said. This season was brilliant until the new year--the last good episode being when Will decides to go cold turkey. But since then it's been treading water, going nowhere. And what happened to Xander? I loved the progression from nervous guy-who-likes-Buffy to the guy who stood up to her in "Into the Woods," but since then the only things he's done have been connected to Anya, and now it looks like they're not even going to get married. What a waste of a great character. Idea: When Willow gave up witchcraft she should have gone straight again. Doing gay storylines is so PC these days; if Joss really wanted to hack some people off, he should have made her convert back. Seems like the lesbian thing and the witchcraft went hand in hand anyway...
Out in the open sex by AngelTash	Mar 5th, 2002 09:20:58 AM
Here's a thought on the B/S sex locations... Perhaps Spike really wants his relationship with Buffy to become a little less secret. Maybe he's hoping that someone will actually catch them in the act, and Buffy will have to admit to all her friends that they are doing the nasty. Or maybe it's just the thrill of "we might get caught" that he likes. Mmmmm... probably won't get caught - but could is kind of thrilling...
I have read... by Greener44	Mar 5th, 2002 09:52:45 AM
Buffy Fanfic that had better stories than some of the ep's I have seen this year.
Drak_Tanner by Greener44	Mar 5th, 2002 09:56:24 AM
go rent the episodes from season 2. Or try to catch some reruns on another channel. Season 2 is what made Buffy so popular. Well that and Buffy wearing hot outfits. Nooch!
To GreatOne: by 93curr	Mar 5th, 2002 11:21:31 AM
Joss's agenda? I thought he introduced Tara 'cause he was tired of bowing down to pressure from the pro-werewolf faction. I was getting damn tired of all this 'werewolf good' crap when we know damn well that Daniel Osbourne was only introduced to try and recruit unsuspecting teenagers into the werewolf lifestyle. Finally let Willow have a nice normal relationship with someone decent and loving instead of an artificial one with a character that can't even exist in real life just 'cause the WB wanted to score political points.
next season by Curwen	Mar 5th, 2002 11:33:31 AM
Hello (first post here) I agree with many of the people here that the lack of a Big Bad is a problem this season. Some would argue that the Super Nerds are but they really haven't had much air time. Although there have been some good episodes as well (the musical comes to mind). Rant warning Just to get a few things off my chest. Riley's scare as an attempt to give him a personality. Well, it's too late. He is the good boyfriend that Buffy thought she wanted. Great, let's move on. The whole Willow drug story line. This is ruining her character IMHO. TARA. Enough said. and no I don't hate lesbians but I don't like characters just because they are either. When Spike was trying to be good to get Buffy to like him that was great but the whole B/S relationship is going nowhere and is ugly and stupid to watch. And get that stupid chip out of his head already. rant off For next season I'd love to see Willow as the Big Bad. I though she was great as Vamp Willow. I always thought of her as a Faustian character always trying to gain more knowledge. The drug story is an oversimplification of that and is too preachy. So, she starts out as a magic historian trying to "save" others and then falls back into doing magic again. Next she can kill Tara (and who doesn't want to see her dead). Buffy can save her soul at the end. Let Dawn be Robin to Buffy's Batman and Spike can play both ends against the middle. So what do you think?
Drak_Tanner, why arn't u watching 'Angel', thats how by theshlong	Mar 5th, 2002 12:11:13 PM
At last a decent Xander episode
Spike, Cheese Man by Mithril	Mar 5th, 2002 12:42:20 PM
Chocky: dude, of course Spike is into kinky sex. The guy is a total "bitch for love", and an S&M freak (more the masochist): he and Dru loved using chains, he tried to get Harmony interested in the chains as well, and the handcuffs with Buffy should also be remembered... And the constant "treat me like crap and beat me, I'll keep coming back hornier than ever" tude. *As for the Cheese Man, that was fuckin' weird. I just slowly started to notice that he actually represented a lot of the problems the characters dealt with: showing Willow how nice he had arranged the slices (i.e. the facade that Willow had built up to look nice and hide her inner problems), telling Giles "I wear the cheese, it does not wear me" (i.e. that Giles' worries about his job as a watcher defining him and him having no personality outside it) etc.
To GreatOne (again): by 93curr	Mar 5th, 2002 01:23:56 PM
See, the thing that gets people upset(well, me anyway) is that you use the word 'sodomite' while pretending that you don't think that it will incur a visceral, emotional response. I assume that you're referring to homosexuality (if you're not, feel free to correct me), but I'm at a loss to understand exactly what sexual act you think homosexuals indulge in that heterosexuals don't. Now, sodomy is easily one of the most elastic words around, definition-wise, but I haven't come across a post from you where you make any effort to explain how YOU definie it. And why you consider it (whatever it be) to be a bad thing. Seems to me that when/if you move from straight to gay, you would be more likely to remove items from them menu then add them. You seriously think that Willow and Tara do anything that Buffy and Riley or Xander and Anya do? If so, what? I'm trying carefully to avoid bringing religion into the debate, but it's not easy when you imply (or maybe I'm incorrectly inferring) a moral superiority of Willow/Oz to Willow/Tara. Personally, I've never made much of a secret about being a strong Willow/Tara shipper, but I don't base that upon gender. Now, if Willow started dating Harmony, then I'd be having a wiggins. I just don't see you making much of a defence of your position, beyond your own baggage. Same with your claim that W/T is taking valuable screen time away from Xander/Anya. Frankly, I don't see it. Most of the relationship time has been spent on Buffy and Spike, surely. But at least that would be a valid argument to make, if you had actually stated details as to why you believe this. All I saw was headline, no story. Details, please.
Restless Cheese Man and BSD by MKL2112	Mar 5th, 2002 02:33:33 PM
Mithril - nice comments on the "cheese" comparisons to the characters... Don't forget, in Buffy's dream, he held up 1 slice - ie, "The cheese stands alone." Which goes with [someone's] comment about Buffy losing everything (Dawn, house, friends) by next season and becoming a "pure" slayer. (Hey, imagine a season finale with Dawn a vamp, Xander dead or gone, Anya a demon, Willow a Dark Phoenix, and Tara off living with Ripper and Gordo Fantastico [the Wonder Twins]) And about the BSD, just because the actor is contracted for next season, doesn't mean (s)he can't be the BSD. (S)he can still lose the "mortal coil" and return as a vamp (Dawn?), or demon (Anya?), or something unexpected, ie, a "butt-monkey demon" (Xander). Thalya, Happy Birthday, 9 days early. Where's EA69?? //m
MKL2112- slight correction.. by Thalya	Mar 5th, 2002 02:51:50 PM
Good stuff, but actually 2 things: 1) Cheese Man was flapping 2 slices in between Buffy and the 1st Slayer, but still I hold by that "Cheese stands alone" statement. 2) My b-day is actually April 14th, I was bemoaning the fact that the next new ep of Angel will come more as a b-day present to me. As for EA69, we had been chatting through e-mail, but he dropped off more than a week or so ago. I really hope he's ok, as he had some cold or flu bug..
Thalya, I stand corrected! by MKL2112	Mar 5th, 2002 03:03:08 PM
Two slices, eh? Well, um... I guess that's a slice for Buffy and a slice for "The First," which just further "connects" them and somehow proves my point EVEN MORE STRONGLY! :oP ((And Happy Birthday 1 month and 9 days early!))
MKL2112: large cheese continuum by 93curr	Mar 5th, 2002 03:13:00 PM
Hell, I can prove your theory even more than that: cheese slices are, by definition, but a section of a larger cheese continuum. No one produces cheese slices individually -you make a large cheese chunk, then slice the pieces off to size. Both Buffy and the first slayer (how come no one ever has any questions about the slayer prior to Buffy?) are but pieces of the larger cheese. Humans are but the raw materials from which slayer cheese is processed.
alright, listen up. . . by littlelotte	Mar 5th, 2002 03:17:07 PM
I've coming to these message boards for at least two years, but have never posted. I am so tired of people posting inane 'theories' about what should happen on BTVS. This what's gonna happen folks, we all know about the wonderful Wanda's clues to the BSD: fourth times a charm, broken heart, won't necessarily be a death but a 'transformation. This all comes together if you think back to one small scene from Forever in season five where Spike takes Dawn to see Doc about the resurrection spell. Immediatly as Spike walks in the door Doc states, "I know you, I've seen you downtown, only you had dark hair, and well, not a vampire." NOW it all comes together, Spike is Buffy's fourth lover, he is also the character to have a perenially broken heart, and the scene in Forever is a prime indicator of the subtle foreshadowing Joss is so incredibly good at. Plus it would be a brilliant move for the show to kill of it's most fanatically beloved character, only to bring him back even more dark and smoldery than before. Now I am not sure how all this will transpire, or what the end result will be, but the evidence is there. So think what you will, and we'll all find out the truth VERY soon. Your humble Buffy fan, littlelotte
new (?) theory -how come this isn't being discussed? by 93curr	Mar 5th, 2002 04:04:27 PM
Considering all the discussion about how old Connor will be when he emerges from the demon dimension, I'm starting to wonder if the real problem with Buffy isn't so much that she came back wrong so much as she spent so much time wherever she was. In 'Aferlife', Spike told her how long she had been gone (246 days? I think) and asked her how long it had seemed for her -"Longer", not to mention the images (deathmasks?) she saw superimposed on her friends' faces (which didn't seem to match the ghost demon thing that attacked them). In 'Anne' the kids ages about fifty years in a day. We were never told exactly how long Angel spent between seasons two and three (although Giles suggested possibly hundreds of years). It's not entirely impossible that when Buffy said 'longer' she meant the same. One could hardly expect a thousand year old Buffy to connect comfortably.
Great One is a tool and Chicago rules. Look, Ma, I've Clever by Electric_Monk	Mar 5th, 2002 04:33:00 PM

I AGREE--- by PANTLOAD	Mar 5th, 2002 07:22:38 PM
At the end of the day it is only a TV show---and for those of you whining because Joss "isn't involved" this year---COME ON! Joss may not be on the set every day like he has been in the past, but he approves every single script. NOTHING gets on that show that Joss doesn't want there.
once again, this episode proves how much angel is better this se by donde	Mar 5th, 2002 08:58:19 PM
i wouldn't be so angry w/ this episode if it wasn't for the fact that they kept pumping up this FUCKING episode SINCE LAST FUCKING SEASON AND THEN IT DOESN'T EVEN FUCKING HAPPEN?!!!! i'm just so disgusted right now.
Underwhelming by DyslexicHeart	Mar 5th, 2002 09:12:52 PM
That is the best word to describe this episode. And the parts that were bad were really bad, every bit as horrible as they sounded in Herc's spoilers. Sarah,Emma and Nicholas all did well enough with bad writing but it doesn't feel as if this show takes anything serious anymore. This is not tragedy, on "Angel" there is tragedy, this is just pathetic. It could not be a worse time for this show to be at it's lowest point considering "Angel" is now as good as "Buffy" ever was.
bam! by carouselambra	Mar 5th, 2002 09:17:00 PM
i think this might be my favorite episode of the year. it was sad, and i still am not clear why xander called the wedding off. but that ending ruled... now it's obvious why the story went this way. good stuff. big surprise. cool.
why cant there ever be a happy ending? by Hostile_17	Mar 5th, 2002 09:21:49 PM
Thats all I want to know and if someone can answer me that I'd greatly appreciate it. It just seems that after all the depressing stuff going on this year that maybe something fun and good would finally happen. Am I the only one who thinks this?
go anya (...it's your birthday) by disappear here	Mar 5th, 2002 09:23:49 PM
If Anya were to take her old vengeance demon job back it would be kind of entertaining, but she's become a much more interesting character since she's been human. I mean, it often works the other way. Has anyone noticed how the Buffy characters are way more interesting when they turn into their 'evil' selves? I mean, Angel with a soul was (and is) as boring as all shit, but whenever he turns evil he becomes about ten times as entertaining and interesting. Ditto with evil Xander and Willow. Those 'doppelgangland' episodes ages ago kicked ass. Xander, for one, has become especially boring in the last couple of seasons. But there are two really obvious exceptions to this... Evil Anya and Spike were okay, but since Anya has become human she's become the most interesting and multi-layered character on the show. Second only to Spike, I guess, who is also about ten times more interesting since he went from evil vampire dude to confused/deep and meaningful Buffy-shagging dude. I think my point sort of got lost/obscured in all the caffeine I've had today, but you know what I'm getting at. Don't bring back evil Anya.
I actually liked this episode... by BurninBullwinkle	Mar 5th, 2002 09:27:45 PM
First, they brought mention to Xander's pre-marital weight gain that many have been bitching about. (Nothin' wrong with that. I gained a few pounds this past year for the first time since Jr. High but I still ain't fat you gram-weighing obsessive freaks.) ;) Also, why is everyone so upset that the wedding wasn't a cross-over event spectacular two-hour movie? I'm glad it was downplayed unlike some Friends season ender. It was a character episode; and finally one for Xander. He hasn't had one since The Replacement, after all. Plus more good Anya moments than we've seen for half the season. (Ya know, last year she was hilarious, but until this ep, I hadn't laughed at her since Tabula Rasa.) Sure, it wasn't as engaging (pun intended) as Sleep Tight last night, but overall pretty entertaining. Three and half stars, here. If anything it's got one of my favorite episode titles ever.
Spike by Funkaboo	Mar 5th, 2002 09:33:53 PM
How the hell did he walk into the lodge and leave it when it was daytime? My fiance seems to think because it was raining out it was cloudy and therefore no sunlight. I think that's bullshit. What's up with that? ******* I cried last night at Angel and tonight at Buffy, enough already.
Yeah, Buffy the character and everyone else can be pathetic, but by Thalya	Mar 5th, 2002 09:42:20 PM
I mean, we all know Joss loves the metaphor, but I'm really hoping that the whole move to UPN isn't subtly being used as a "return from the dead" metaphor.. Anyway, now it's all coming together, in a pretty weak way which we should see build to a somewhat jaw-dropping finale. Xander and Anya individually are caving in to the dark side. I really hope Xander doesn't go his dad's route, but.. Those two pegs are in, and now Willow's got to go all Dark Phoenix in one of the coming eps (OaFA: she does magic once she might not stop), Tara's got to die, Dawn's gotta get vamped, and Buffy has to lose her biggest battle with her Slayer side and go back to Spike (the love was there!). How's that sound everyone? But, um, one thing... Buffy in a MENTAL HOSPITAL in a STRAIGHTJACKET!!!??? hum, sounds like even more of a "accept you're the Slayer" ep... Y'know..it seems like everyone could predict this season last summer...The end from here on out seems obvious.. ...which probably means there's a huge twist coming that's going to blindside us...
Hell's Bells,indeed! by Wicked Willow	Mar 5th, 2002 09:49:59 PM
Ok,I'm naming five things I liked about this episode(5)Anya vowing to be Xander's sex poodle(4)Willow& Tara getting the giggles while helping Anya dress(which one of the bridal outfits was the worst-Willow takes the prize on that while Dawn managed to look half-way decent)(3)Dawn chatting with the demon teen,nice to see her find friends her own age(which many people have been complaining about)(2)the Spike/Buffy moment,he was really sweet to her(boy,what a skankerella Spike picked up-almost as bad as Riley's vamp trollop)and I keep yelling at her "See what you threw away-the guy has some potential!"(1)the big demon/family fight-Xander's dad totally needed to be smacked with a sledgehammer. It's a rough deal but I have a few relatives like Xander's and can understand why he backed out at the last minute-"It's not you that I was hating". Also,Xander was looking right at his parents when he told Anya he couldn't go thru with it and that hit home more that the fake future visions. He knows that he has the potential to make his married life even worse than what that demon showed him due to the hideous example he's lived with all his life and needed to step back a moment. If Anya takes D'hoffryn up on his offer(which I don't think we'll see next week from what I saw in the trailer),it will prove that she has learned nothing from being human but on the other hand,if she just says no,maybe that will bring her and Xander back together. Well,atleast we have more new BTVS to look forward to unlike Ats which thanks to the evil slime of the WB,we don't even get any reruns just Glory Days(They want Glory-let's show them the real Glorificus and watch her stomp the suits into the ground with her top designer heels!)...GRRR,ARRGGH!
I'm a bit disappointed in the ep, but I'm totally disgus by Geekgrrl	Mar 5th, 2002 09:50:15 PM
I agree that I was totally psyched for this whole wedding thing to happen - and then it didn't. Bummer. Even more bummer that I read the spoilers for this long ago. Bad me. I should stop doing that. But I was also hoping that the talkback wouldn' t be populated by a bunch of TROLLING IDIOTS who just want to whine about how much they hate this season or impose thier narrow-minded viewpoints on everyone. ---- Things I did like - Buffy honestly admited that she was a little jealous. Seeing that Xander had not been using any hyperbole when discribing his family. Anya (finally) being offered her old job back. Dawn flirting with the demon kid. ----- Now bring back the analysis of Campbellian archtypes in Buffy
Oh, and.. by Thalya	Mar 5th, 2002 10:16:00 PM
NB still got the short shrift...meaty stuff, and he seemingly wasn't there for the middle of the ep! Nonetheless, he, EC, SMG, and then everyone else were quite good. (RRK deserves a bit of credit for her writing, though I kinda got shudders from all the other guests). Wicked Willow: how about all the appropriately-timed thundercrashes and Buffy calmly going about her slaying in the background in her bridesmaid's dress while chaos is everywhere else? Geekgrrl: don't threaten with your Spike/Han Solo analysis, go with it! :)
When Riley found out about B/S by Naia	Mar 5th, 2002 10:38:53 PM
Sorry I'm a week late, I know. Was it just me or was everyone else in the world disappointed with that scene? Jeez, he displayed no emotion whatever. Where was the shock?!?! Bring the horror! I couldn't believe that. What a let down. *** As for the wedding, why didn't Xander get married? If you know the future you can change it. Nothing is set in stone, especially in the Buffyverse. Wasn't that the whole premis of Back to the Future? Doesn't he know that? Anyone? *** Where does the Dawn getting vamped idea come from? I don't think that'll happen, I have no solid reason but I just don't. Can someone please list the contracts for the actors next year? Is everyone still there except Amber Benson? (Who I really like by the way. I miss Tara. At first I didn't like her cuz she made it so Oz, who was a favorite character of mine wouldn't be back. But every time I saw her she grew on me and now I will be so sad to see her go. I hope they don't find Willow someone new. I don't want Tara replaced.) ** I liked the B/S dialog today. I hope they get back together. **** Also, the Cheese Man theory rocks. ~Naia
Season 6 by Docebo	Mar 5th, 2002 10:43:01 PM
To all of you naysayers out there, I would just like to say that after watching tonight's ep I am utterly depressed. Any show that can make me feel so miserable has still got the right stuff.
powerful stuff by zippyramo	Mar 5th, 2002 11:16:03 PM
I suppose at this point that no one will read my post. But I still have to say that this is an amazing season. Buffy is as good as it ever was, it's more self confidant as a show and able to do things that it couldn't years ago. There's something very impressive about an action sci-fi show that can have a season with out much outside complex. Someone saying that Buffy is only as good as it's big bad is not someone who grasps why the show is good. Go watch Mutant X if all you want is stupid action
Naia - by MrD	Mar 5th, 2002 11:24:09 PM
It may well be that Riley didn't carry on because a year earlier he found himself in a similiar position. Also, why do you miss Tara? She's still here, and likely will be in most of the remaining eps (she was contracted to be in all but 6, and we must be close to that now). And for the record I liked this episode.
Kind of disappointed with this episode until the end... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Mar 5th, 2002 11:34:22 PM
I have a feeling that Anya is now a vengeance demon, except she'll keep herself in her human form for a couple of episodes before "revealing" herself. Ultimately, I don't think she'll have the heart to take vengeance on Xander. Actually, for a while now, I've had the impression that Anya might be written out of the show. Maybe she's the Big Scooby Death. Or maybe it's still Tara and Anya will simply decide to leave Sunnydale next season and move on with her life. I've been predicting this because for some reason I could easily see an episode next season where Xander, Spike and Jonathan go out on the town together and behave like "bad boys" -- going to strip clubs, bars, picking up cheap hos, etc. -- then getting themselves into a heap of demon/evil trouble, and Buffy and Willow have to step in and save their asses. The reason for the guys doing this might be because of Spike and Jonathan wanting to cheer Xander up, after all the angst he's been through with Anya, and being a single man again.
Another good episode. Four Stars. by kobayashi	Mar 5th, 2002 11:35:34 PM
All of you whiners have got to just move on. This is still an 'A' level show. Sure, its changed a bit from seasons 2 and 3, but thats just the way things evolve. I've come to realize that its every bit as good of a show now as it was then... there were plenty of 'filler' episodes in seaons 2-3, not everything was the epic Angel or Faith storylines. Honestly, I think most of you guys probably haven't even watched the show since the begining. You probably are just going off of your impressions of the first few seasons after seeing them on FX. Quit your whining, I'm getting sick of it and I bet Joss, Marti, and the writers are too. As if any of you are really more talented than the people who are actually doing the show. \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Why this was a good episode - 1) Willow being happy and giggly... just like old Willow. Good to see. 2) The Spike/ Buffy moment was great. Best moment between them since the whole 'you treat me like a man' speach. 3) Anya and Xander. What can I say... sucks to be them right now. Poor Xander. Poor Anya. \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| My critisisms - 1) they need to stop making Demons 'human-like'. Whats up with the demons integrating into the human population like that? They're not 'circus people' with 'skin conditions'. They need to stop it. 2) I wish they would've actually got married. Xander loves her. She loves him. Get married already... its really not that hard.
Next episode prediction... by Prof. Pop-Cult	Mar 5th, 2002 11:45:11 PM
It's not a demon that has trapped Buffy into thinking that she's a mental patient. The truth is that the reality we see where the world is "real" and Buffy is simply a delusional girl in a mental institution is, in fact, a real reality -- but it's a parallel one. Buffy winds up jumping over to this parallel reality. And she has a choice: She can stay in this perfectly legitimate reality. What does everybody think of this? The idea that this is all simply a demon or a spell causing Buffy to hallucinate is too tired and predictable. I would hope that they'll take a more unique approach with this episode.
I've got a theory! (re: BSD/humanity) by dp4m	Mar 6th, 2002 12:01:55 AM
Someone above mentioned that the BSD was likely to involve the "current loss of form" -- i.e. Anya losing humanity back to demon, Dawn getting vamped, etc. I seem to recall that possibility based upon previous Herc/Wanda postings way early on. But what if we're focusing on the wrong direction -- what if Spike gets Williamized? How would he adjust to being fully human and not super strong? How would he adjust to trying to love a superwoman as a normal man? Wouldn't that DESTROY him? Wouldn't that also be the equivilent of the death of Spike... and the rebirth of William? hmmmm... (PS - truly hoping it's not Wes...)
by km2000	Mar 6th, 2002 12:04:40 AM
ok, first time post. i actually liked tonight's ep--i thought it showed that xander is actually growing up a little. seeing the value in stepping back and waiting? not rushing in? how many people do you know who you think are making that mistake? as for the bsd-i also have been thinking about the dawn being vamped theory. and, as another plot-moving-forward-motion theory: what if willow needs to do the angel spell to try and give her back a soul? assuming there is one to give-unsure as to whether she has one or not. this way we get rid of dawn and have willow fall off the wagon. probably too simple...
Quote Willow: "I feel like I should hate Xander, but I can't by Village Idiot	Mar 6th, 2002 12:11:55 AM
Of course, hate is such a strong word...and yet it's so appropriate for how I feel. In fact, let me throw in a few epithets: that big, bloated, pasted, doughy jerk!
Prof. Pop-Cult by Thalya	Mar 6th, 2002 12:14:09 AM
Aren't the Nerds in the next ep? I think the delusion might be Nerd-induced... And it sounds like it might be a "The Wish"-like ep, something to set in contrast again (after AYW) everyone's current situation. Maybe we can get some more rhyme and reason for the whole season then. And while I remember it in this post, everyone caught some of the intimations in Xander's faux-flash-forwards (say that five times fast) of him still helping Buffy out as he ages, trying to make himself helpful, etc..future Anya blamed their situation on Buffy (just like Cordelia..). Even if it is subconscious, Xander may never have gotten the chance to mature as far as long as he was always under Buffy, always helping her, and he might think that now. Wedge. And furthermore..that was a rather Faith-like change of residence, wasn't it? ooh...
Top Ten.... by QuintusSertorius	Mar 6th, 2002 12:18:04 AM
Things That Can Save "Buffy" 1) Lose Spike's brain chip, 2) Get Christophe Beck to do the score, 3) LOSE MICHELLE TRACHTENBERG! 4) Get Xander a pair of cajones, 5) Make Buffy a student again, 6) Some Spike-centric episodes (He's by far the best actor on TV these days), 7) Get the season some sort of direction, 8) Get Joss Whedon back in the game (the show's been on autopliot ALL season), 9) Make Willow a strong woman instead of a weak addict, 10) Give the fans something to freakin' care about!!!
I know where Xander is. by Not Gellar's Ass	Mar 6th, 2002 12:22:05 AM
I swear to God, he's staying in Faith's old room. Who knows, maybe she left some HOTPANTS
OK, I posted this in Angel talk back yesterday, but... by UNC1903	Mar 6th, 2002 12:46:56 AM
I'm hoping I'll get more of a response here. Buffy is by far the show I will support and look to for entertainment. Has anyone else (who also watches Angel) noticed that some of the characters(human),especially Holtze's little girlfriend kickass as well as Buffy. Since when do regular people (whose relatives were killed by vamps) have the strength and fighting abilities of the Slayer! Am I really the only person who is annoyed by this! Especially on Mondays Ep when the chick is throwing around a vamp like a ragdoll! Even Buffy has trouble with vamps sometimes, but not Holtze, his lil girl, Gunn, or Wes(who like as a badass by the way). Maybe I've been reading comics too long(even though that should make me more tolerant) but have any of the writers ever heard of "continuity"! For years we've been watching Giles, Xander and Willow get beat up by vamps and demons but the people on Angel just don't seem to be dealing with the same set of rules! And no I'm not an expert but I have studied martial arts and street fighting quite a bit and I even make a living(a rather good one) managing security for a club where I have to break up a minimum of 2 fights/night. I have been in situation that might rival a fight scene on one of these shows and I am nowhere near that "fighter" these "people" are! I know all about suspension of disbelief but come on! Someone please enlighten me!
Not the worst episode ever... by Voice O. Reason	Mar 6th, 2002 12:50:43 AM
...that distinction still belongs to "Where the Wild Things Are", but this episode was bad on multiple levels. First, it wasn't even remotely funny, despite having many jokes written into it (Buffy juggling was as close as I came to laughing). The Xander-impersonator wasn't compelling as a villian. The episode lacked the focus of a main character. Xander might have been the main character, but he was off contemplating his future for most of the episode. Anya's only schtick until the end was to recite bad wedding vows. Buffy was too busy keeping the guests in line and talking to Spike to contribute to the main story. The only bright spot (and I use the words "bright spot" with a sense of irony) was the ending. Didn't the preview for next week seem like more of an episode in 30 seconds than this last entire hour did? The pop-up ads for "As If" didn't help much either. Next week: Kristine Sutherland!
The Wedding Episode by The Alienist	Mar 6th, 2002 01:03:06 AM
I recently posted about how Buffy is becoming more and more unbelievable (yeah, yeah, besides the usual disbelieve suspension) mainly because how easily and normally demons are interacting with humans...and no one really caring and/or freaking out. It's Angel bleed over and it's obviously (by tonite's ep) badly infected Buffy. Circus People????? I hated it almost as much as I hated the loan shark demon from earlier in the season who actually had a shark's head. It's becoming just a little precious, don't you think? Loved the scenes with Buffy and Xander and then Wil and Xander. I watched these kids grow up and almost felt I was actually sharing a milestone with a bunch of old friends. Which I guess I was. Also, love the Buffy/Spike scene. Very sweet and full of heart.
I might just be stoned but... by FromHell	Mar 6th, 2002 01:05:08 AM
would this be a good idea? Spike gets both Dawn and Tara killed out of revenge and sends everone into overload at everyone else, Willow goes nuts at Buffy for letting it happen, Buffy going nuts to Spike, Anya going nuts at Xander, everyone GOES FUCKING NUTTS!
Skull Fuck 'Em! Skull Fuck Them ALL!! by Mr. Smegma	Mar 6th, 2002 01:19:19 AM
With the exception of the wonderfully clumsy Buffy/Spike exchange and the Willow/Tara primping of Anya (I imagined them wondering what her CLIT tasted like after she CUMS) an utter waste of an epsiode. Fucking Days of Our Lives vibe with latex fX. No way Xander's pussy turn was set up by ANYTHING the character has done or experienced. Would've made more sense if X suddenly started huffing Spike's ice cold cock and announced his intention to shave his balls and move to Miami to work setting up South Beach circuit parties. You just KNEW watching the ep that the writers had the vision of a jilted, teary, bleeding Anya walking down the isle before they had a fucking CLUE of how to get there. The smarmy Tara/Willow break up looks like a towering dramatic moment by comparison. (For the gold standard see the Willow/Oz flame-out, utterly REAL cluster-fuckage.) And what is the point of pushing Anya over to the dark side? We haven't been given any reason to care about the character, she's just Xander's cum socket and occasional comic relief. She has no real relationship with the Scoobs san Xander. So she goes all demony, and? For better or worse Xander/Anya became one character over the past two seasons. You can't split them up now. Better to make Xander go dark too than to drag this thing out anymore. And oh next week, a spooked Buffy seeing things that aren't really there. Sounds like Kirk beaming down to a planet of nubile women--and wait--the transporter blows up. Haven't seen that before either. Joss, get off the pipe and fix this mess.
just like assholes everybody has a theory by KingCoal	Mar 6th, 2002 01:23:08 AM
After tonights episode I have a theory( Yippieee the Buffy talkbackers cheer. Another!!)Everybody talks about how this seasons is about growing up, and facing one's personal demons. Maybe that's meant literally as well as figuratively. Let's see, we have Buffy versus Warren(who's becoming icreasing unhinged). Willow vs Rack, Xander vs Anya, and Tara vs Amy( She's fighting for her little lady). Spike, well he just might shift the tide of power depending who he chooses to join. Now I'm not nesecarialy suggesting that Warren, Rack, Anya and Amy are going to form an actual team like the "Master's of Evil", maybe things just collide and it's every scoob for themselves... then, when the dust clears...who's gonna be left standing?
I found this to be a very good essay on the direction the show h by myseraphina	Mar 6th, 2002 01:34:24 AM
Date Posted: 00:46:15 03/06/02 Wed Author: Supreme Author Host/IP: on-tor-blr-a58-01-288.look.ca / 216.154.1.34 Subject: Of self-fulfilling prophecies and the fear of what is inside.(spoilers for Hells Bells and AtS) Does no character in fiction read Oedipus Rex, or maybe take a look at some tragic heroes in mythology like Cuchulain? Do the writers write in to these characters that they have nothing to learn from a little classical knowledge. Tonight, as I watched Buffy at 8 and then Angel at 9, that was all I thought as two characters divined their future and did everything in their power to make it come true. Two very heroic people able to face down a rampaging demon or face their own death with an ease that would leave others screaming for their mothers, but they just couldn't beat the fear inside. Tonight, fear beat them around the head to the point their brains were pooling around their shoes. I am talking of course about Xander Harris and Wesley Wyndham-Price. Xander who had found his strength and his life in the unlikely package in a tiny (wow is she thin) ex-demon by the name of Anya. He had a future, an apartment, a good job, plus the chance for a fabulous life with a beautiful woman and moments away from making his future what he wants he caved in from the fear. Picture this, an old man who looks almost nothing like him approaches him in a crowd of well wishers and tells him that he is him from the future and needs to warn him of impending doom. The then shows him a couple of images from the future where Xander behaving poorly is destroyed by and destroys the woman he loves. Just like that, the doubt that has been lurking inside is released, because Xander wants to believe the worst about himself. Why would he go with this man? Why would he listen? Why would he leave? The answer comes as he cancels his wedding with Anya as he glances towards his father berating his mother, he fears he is a monster and he will hurt Anya and destroy himself. So with that he abandons her in the chappel to deal with the guests and walks into his future, a dim echo of his basement past as he gets a room in a dingy hotel who knows where. Anya who had thought she had found herself a life outside vengence with a man who she thought was her best friend, was abandoned and devastated and left with a choice that very well may end any chance for mortal happiness. Prophecy fulfilled. Anya is hurt and Xander is the cause, the future that might have been is in shambles. Wesley also let fear rule him. He knew the people he was dealing with and their respective attributes, he knew Holtz was a badguy, he knew prophecy is unreliable, he knew Angel loved his sone, yet he stole Angel's baby and doomed both the father and the son with one foolish act. He didn't trust the people he thought he trusted, he didn't trust his instincts, he didn't look outside his box but he did fear. Now Angel's son will grow up in Hell, Holtz will train him to kill Angel and the son will die at the hands of the father (whether that father is Angel or Holtz is yet to be seen). Both Xander and Wesley looked their weaknesses in the eye and blinked, they didn't trust in their loved ones and mostly they didn't trust in themselves. The tragedy and pain that will flow from their actions, should be interesting to see. If only one of them had read Oedipus perhaps they would know if you try and avoid killing your father and sleeping with your mother too hard you might just end up ripping your eyes out.
Never go back; circus freaks by MrD	Mar 6th, 2002 01:38:17 AM
Some of you are clearly very unhappy with this season and I respect your opinion. I think its had moments good and not. What I do take issue with is the number of folks who just want the show to hit rewind. Like it or not, the show has always been about change. Change enough and eventually you will piss everyone off. I too think this series has gotten off track at points coughWillowhack but would rather the show improve by doing something different -not by going back to a status quo that never really existed to begin with. Let me say one other thing: About the circus freak excuse. Dumb, awful rediculous explanation, and I would never expect anyone to fall for it. Except the Harris clan.
Xander by Hi-Tech Hate	Mar 6th, 2002 01:44:29 AM
One of the better episodes of the season, but there were a couple of thing I thought were weird... (1.) In the "previously" part at the beginning, did anybody else notice the way it cut from Buffy saying goodbye to William straight to Halfrek talking to Dawn? Somebody on last week's talkback brought up the point that it might have been Halfrek that dumped Spike, and the way it cut together like that you really noticed the resemblance in the pendants they both wore. (2.) This one might be kinda wishful thinking, but Xander had a pretty weird look on his face (to me anyway) while Willow was telling him how much she loved him and he hugged her. Am I crazy on that one?
YOU ALL SOUND LIKE YOUR FROM BEVERLY HILLS 90210 by FromHell	Mar 6th, 2002 01:55:12 AM
This IS an ACTION, HORROR, COMEDY, DRAMA. Lately we get drama, little action, and no horror. I loved the creepiness of the first couple of episodes and most of the first season, obviously they can't do that all the time cos it would be stupid, but real creeps haven't come in lately. The last creepy ep that comes to mind was Helpless, there are probably others but I cant think.
I give this episode points for...... by Jimmy Jazz	Mar 6th, 2002 02:09:10 AM
breaking up the borefest that was Xanya. I like both characters, but together, they were like a bad sitcom. Oh, and for those who say that the Xanya breakup was contrived because they had been living together, I seriously suggest you get a clue.Living together is nothing like being married. Two different animals, believe me. I have personal experience in this matter, if I had the same knwoledge that Xander had, I would have run screaming too. Also, I liked the Buffy/Xander/ Willow interaction. I hope these three come out of their self-absorbed shells and GET ON WITH THE MISSION!!!!!!!!! This season is an interesting experiment, but seriously hit or miss. I hope things pick up in the end and I hopethat Whedon keeps his word that season seven is it. Otherwise, I predict dark times, "X-files" style ahead.
Oh... by Jimmy Jazz	Mar 6th, 2002 02:19:23 AM
and those of you who say that BtVS has been better than Angel lately needs to lay off the pipe. The last two episodes of Angel had everything that I started watching Buffy for waaaaaay back in season two. Holtz has the one quality that makes a villain cool: unpredictiblity. Warren may have this potential, but he has yet to live up to it. Let's see some real danger, people. Turning Anya back to Anyanka doesn't count unless she wastes half the cast in the process. The Scoobs are getting too complacent in their angst. It's not a big bad they necessarily need, but a mission, a quest. A Holy Freaking Grail. This season has been all about aimless drifting. If I wanted to see pointless losers feeling sorry for themselves, I'd live with my sister's ex and his friends.
a couple of things by darkguyver	Mar 6th, 2002 02:28:11 AM
First off I was glad we finally got to see Xander's parents and Uncle Rory. Second, I think this was the decent episode though not the best. I hated the Buffy/Spike scene because it felt like they just threw it in there so Spike wouldn't be left out of an episode (God forbid). Also I'm tired of you people who gush over what a great actor James Marsters is, he's a good actor who gets all the good writing. I think that there all good actors who are often dealt bad writing. An actor is someone who reads line and fakes emotions, this is something you can either do or you can't. Someone thought that the room Xander was in was Faith's old room but it wasn't. Last thing, I've always been able to empathize with Xander but after seeing his family I feel like they based the character on me. Or maybe I'm empathizing a bit to much after all its just a tv show.
I think there's only one question we need to ask now... (and by Thalya	Mar 6th, 2002 03:48:11 AM
Whhhhhyyyyyyyyyy???? I'm always one to ask the next question, and it seems like the general ideas about what the end of the season is going to look like are starting to take hold. Can we start to nail anything else down? What are some dangling questions that have been raised or some situations that have looked dumb or awkward the way they've been "resolved"? What is total nadir? We know: isolation, pain, turn to the dark side. Loss of human plusses for Buffy: school, job, companion (?), friends (?), family (?). Can the transformation to Pure Slayer happen in 6 episodes, or will it be drawn out over all of next season with Spike as a potential new watcher, instructing her in some of the darker ways? You know..with that HotPockets coupon I got the other day, maybe I should make a bet that it's all going to end with Buffy professing her love for Spike and going back to his crypt to live, somewhat heedless to the destruction and darkness all around her, everything that was supposed to make life even more hellacious after being ripped from Heaven. ****** Also, again while I remember it, the thing both Willow and Buffy said at the end: "My HEART hurts." Direct connection back to Primeval! When Willow goes (anyone know if/when Amy's supposed to be back? Cause I'm pretty damn sure when she comes around, Willow will go. The ultimatum given in DP and all..), there might be a mention about the soul/spirit in regard to Buffy/Xander...was there anything like that about the mind when Giles left?
Olaf the Troll proved right by arbour	Mar 6th, 2002 04:32:10 AM
Ironic that the Olaf episode was on FX tonight, just before the wedding. He said it would never work for X/A. And for all who said Anya hadn't paid for the pain she caused as a demon, this was payback - the scene where she got beat was pretty intense. Xander was her whole world, and what's left? Can she go back to working at the Magic Box? doubtful - or is there some path of redemption she has to suffer through? Marrying Xander was something too good, too soon for her. Do Halfrek and Anyanka team up? Do tara/dawn/buffy run the magic box? What would Giles say to all this? **** Xander's "future" seemed realistic, at least in how he was haunted over Buffy's future death ** On the theory Dawn gets vamped, we don't want to go there 'cause Buffy would hit her primal slayer roots in about 2 seconds. Spike would lose it, and W would dive back into magic **** finally, Willow/Tara - it's too obvious that Tara's being set up to die - they will get back together and be normal, and have to deal with a teed-off Halfrek/Anyanka duo... Then again, X/W is now a future chance... Xander's butt-monkey/comic-relief days seem over.
Anya's the "Big Bad"... by Zardoz	Mar 6th, 2002 04:33:59 AM
...and Willow's gonna have to get back on the magic "pipe" to save Xander from the newly resurrected Vengeance demon's wrath...(Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that!)
This season's about the characters by fuldamobil	Mar 6th, 2002 05:05:24 AM
Finally this show is about the characters instead of saving the world. For the first few years, having a "Big Bad" was great and exciting, but now the show and its viewers have grown. I'm really enjoying this season because we're really seeing these characters as people. Another "Big Bad" would have seemed so stale. Last season was really stretching that format, so much so that all Whedon could do was kill Buffy. Tonight's episode was the perfect example. It was so sad and affecting because these characters have become so deep. Who would have thought that Anya would have one of the series' most heartbreaking moments?
cheese man continued, and the season by Mithril	Mar 6th, 2002 06:57:56 AM
Oh, I'm just so gutted that people like my cheese man stuff! "You like me! You really, really like me!" (bitch slap) Okay, calmer again, and not weeping like Miss America all over my keyboard. Back to cheese man. I agree with the thoughts on Buffy's dream. The cheese man holds two wedges between the two slayers = total syncronicity. After all, they are just two slices from the great hunk of slayer cheese. Slayers have come before and will come after. But the fact that he walked between the two slayers while holding the slices can also be interpreted as a representation of how Buffy sometimes allows herself to be distracted by other things, so she doesn't focus on her slayage (represented by the "pure slayer" form of the First). As for Xander's dream, the cheese man just holds out the platter to him, says "Cheese?" and takes the platter away. This obviously is a metaphor of how Xander keeps getting the opportunity to do something, to stop being a butt-monkey, to grow up, to have an adult relationship and marriage. And then he goes and let's his fears and his indecisiveness fuck it all up, and the possibility is taken away (as proven again by "Hells Bells"). Oh, and sorta gotta agree with Christopher. This season is about growing up and facing our inner demons, but in the past the show has managed to do that while still having big ass villains to beat. Growth has come through realisations while uncovering plots and thwarting evil schemes. Fair enough, we've had some this season too, but I do sorta miss the old days... God, attack of nostalgia setting in... (bitch slaps self again) Ahh, that's better. And last, isn't it interesting how both Buffy and Angel have really tragic episodes this week. Before, they've tried to even things out (Joss saying that "if there's a weepie on Buffy, we have to make a light Angel, otherwise people would just kill themselves"), but not now! Cool! Oh, and Wes is NOT dead!!!
Dissappointed!! by kbrooks	Mar 6th, 2002 08:22:50 AM
Quite so! The whole Anya/Zander thing was the show's heart (not counting Tara and Willow's sweet lesbian love) and I was looking forward to the wedding, I'll admit it! But then they have to come up with a weak and done-come-out-of-nowhere reason to break it up. If I wanted to feel cheap and manipulated, I'd still be watching Passions!!
happy endings by rev_skarekroe	Mar 6th, 2002 08:52:04 AM
Yes, this season has been sadly lacking in happy endings. It's like somebody said "Hey, they like that body episode! Let's make this whole season cripplingly depressing!" Not that I have a problem with dark shows - the last couple of "Angel"s had me on the edge of my seat. But last nights "Buffy" just made me want to get a razorblade and fill the sink with ice. BTW, does anyone else think futureXander looks just like JRR Tolkien? sk
Do the words "character driven" mean anything to you people?? by XTheCrovvX	Mar 6th, 2002 08:52:27 AM
Now, I havent posted on a Buffy TB for a while, particularly because of the level of stupidity and sheep mentality badgering i keep reading week after week after week. You get people bashing this show because its fashionable to do so. Very few arguable reasons, just "Haha, lets bash some Buffy! Not like i actually saw the episode this week, but damn this be fun!!"....more and more every day since February 26th, i treasure my Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back dvd.....those who do have arguable reasons, Im going to take my time right now to set it straight once, and only once. Now, I've been watching Angel on and off this season, and it has been pretty damn good because Angel's been maintaining the balance Buffy originally had, between horror, comedy, drama, and action. Angel's been keeping the straight and narrow path, and Monday's episode just took that left turn down that dark road that I havent seen executed so well on that show since the Angel/Darla/Drucilla arc way back when. But Buffy this season is a totally different animal altogether. This season is when the true growing pains begin. There is no big bad, no HUGE threat to the existence of mankind aside from a couple of funny, yet bumbling nerds with star wars fetishes. no, this season, you have every character confronted with a path, the paths that everybody, when coming into adulthood, has to make. This season has been about that. the reason why it's seemed a bit weak by some is because of that....not as much fantasy this season as it is a focus on getting the characters to that next level that will take this show to the right place where they CAN get back to world ending crises and stuff of that nature, and restore the balance. I applaud Joss and Co. for allowing the characters to mature, and using this season to do it, instead of just letting them sit there and be eternally 18 like most teen shows do. Of course, just letting them walk around being dramatic isnt quite enough, so every week, we have to keep the supernatural going in some capacity, reminding everyone where we've been. But you just know with this slow methodical growth happening, you know somethings gonna go down by seasons end, and I'm not just talking about the big, secret, much debated Scooby death(My money and Hot Pockets still lie on Tara, which triggers the return of Dark Phoenix Willow). But, in that bit of slowing down this season, you have those of you who are just being bored, not realizing how important to the show this season is set to become. To you, i continue to pity you week after week. Now, about last night...most depressing Buffy since the "ripped from heaven" ep? Not quite, but this did get emotional as hell, and the look on Anya's face when she walked down the aisle threatened to pull me under deeper than i expected from an episode that started with her wanting to become Xander's sex poodle(the funniest line in the episode). What happened to Joss' process where if Angel was sad/dark, Buffy would be funny, and vice versa?? ack...but, speaking of Xander, I stand with Willow's assessment....I feel like i should be hating him....but, after dwelling on the whole night, especially his father, i dont really blame him. And honestly, i think its a bit of an overreaction if Anya were to take her old job back....i mean, what i got from last night was that Xander wasn't ready, but doesn't love Anya any less...i hate him for just stranding her, but not his reasons. The main reason marriages tend to go sour is because of the whole "forever" aspect...this is not something to just jump into if you're not sure you can sustain it, especially with with this nagging fear brought to light. Xander needs to be sure, and Anya needs to give him the time to do it. So, in the end, if she takes her old job, that is, they're both being a bit rash...i wonder, however, why one of the justice demons didnt get "on the job" with Xander's father...it doesnt get any more lousier than that drunken piece of shit....but, back to the episode, a few strange moments aside, it was good. And definitely shows progress being made with the characters getting over the overdoses of drama that the beginning of this season was bogged down with, especially with Will and Tara getting friendly again. There's light at the end of the tunnel for those two...maybe, unless my death pool prediction comes to fruition. Anyways, trippy ep coming next week. and this post is now an essay, so, byeee bye now...i need breakfast. Revolution is my name.
Buffy needs to be cancelled RIGHT NOW!!! by PyleanJossWhedon	Mar 6th, 2002 09:16:17 AM
Why? 1. Nobody watches UPN. This is also a reason they should cancel "Enterprise". Heck, cancel "Smackdown" and cheese off all the great fanatical fanbases. 2. The episodes are just getting stupid. Back when the show had great, serious stories like "Killed by Death", "Bad Eggs" and "Gingerbread" it was fine to watch but now that the show's just plain silly (Buffy resurrected at terrible cost, Xander and Anya's marriage breaking up, etc.), it should be cancelled. 4. I can't count. (P.S. To anyone without a sarcasm gene that was, well, sarcasm.)
You and me and four more? by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 09:22:54 AM
Anyone know what Willow meant by that? Four more what? Kids? Years? Was it a quote from something or a pop culture reference that I'm just ignorant of?
Be patient by Munkstomper	Mar 6th, 2002 09:27:03 AM
Joss and the Gang have given us 5 great season (ALL things have highs and lows) and I'm going to be patient and see what happens. We still have a lot of shows this season. Let's take a look...Buffy is growing up, has lost her mother, has to raise her sister..and you moan for the Buffy of high school? Plus,have we forgotten the musical already? They are taking some risks, being just as creative as before..you guys just want the "Big Bad"..I understand that. Me, I like the fact that something major is going to happen before the summer comes. Just let the storylines progress. ****For the record...I think Amber Berson has gotten a raw deal. She has been one of the strongest actors the show has had, (A great singer)...and yet she has never been in the opening credits. but Marc Blukas was...Tara has been in longer than Riley was. I know Tara is the "Betty Rubble" of BtVS. (Think about it...Barney/Betty-Willow/Tara) ...:) but she deserves better.
Wrong! by Mr. Smegma	Mar 6th, 2002 09:34:59 AM
The marriage disaster wasn't "character driven," it was bad writer driven. NOTHING we've seen Xander's character do the past years sets up his cold feet. He's faced down "certain" doom many times, KNOWS from intimate experience that demons love to fuck with humans and ruin their lives by playing on their weaknesses, KNOWS that the future is what you make of it. NOTHING from real life tells us that real people behave like Xander did. Think, what do the people you know with fucked up families yearn to do? That's right, escape. To go off and start their own family of some sort. Oh, the fear and doubt that they'll end up the same way creeps in, but only later. If Xander thought he was so doomed, such a tool, why all the Johnny Toolbelt hard-work? That, to me, was one big leap, making Xander Mr. Fix-It overnight, but I figured that was a reasonable direction for the character to go. Either that or have him deliver pizza, smoke pot, and lose touch with the college Scoobs. I bought it, especially with the dynamic of a strong woman whipping a diffident man into shape thru shame, nagging, and mind-bending coochy. Happens everyday. So there's Xander. But wait no. Everything we've been told about him over the last few years isn't true. He really is just a big pussy. Doesn't work, folks. I WILL say that the end of Xanya does set up the Xaffy thing I told you was coming months ago as the writers' Lego approach to character pairings reaches is logical conclusion (set us up for the Xaffy movie payday after next season, too.)I don't doubt that there WAS once a Buffy "I missed my chance with you"-line that was dropped cuz it made things way too obvious even to you chimps out there. * I am the Head Cheese. Eat me. *
I'm sad, but it was realistic by godric	Mar 6th, 2002 09:46:49 AM
I'm hacked that Xander wimped out, but it was a realistic reaction. He'd pretty much cut himself out of his parents' lives, and then as he saw how they were he became deeply afraid that he would be the same, that he had never confronted the "demons" of his family and upbringing. We often become just like the ones we bitterly say we will never be like. But I still wish someone had confronted him and told him to grow up, like he did to Buffy in "Into the Woods." I must say, though, that despite it being a really SAD episode, it was also a very GOOD episode. Well written, and leaves us hanging for what the heck will happen in the future. As to the four more comment--I have no clue, either. I hope Anya doesn't go back to her old ways...she's seen too much to do that. I hope. For all you who complain and say Angel is way better: c'mon, honestly, Angel may be more dramatic right now, but can you really say you care about those characters as much? The guys of BtVS just feel more like real people, like people you know. Maybe that's why people are feeling so disappointed right now...
Not a sudden change for Xander by MrD	Mar 6th, 2002 09:47:49 AM
I want to adrees the complaints that Xader abandoning Anay at the alter is a cheap stunt with no mptivation save to make Anya a vengeance demon. For most of 5 seasons we saw Xander suffer terribly in term sof confidence and self-image as a result of his f*cked up home life. He always expected to be a miserable failure just as his father was before him. His jokes were a way for him to cope with what he felt was an inevitable truth. He even jokes about that being the "Circle of Life" to Anya in "As You Were." It was not until "The Replacement" that Xander saw he could rise above that - the "Good Xander" was without those life long inhibitions. People never completly change -you bring you past with you wherever you go. Xander had done a remarkable job of moving on (and note how much his self-depricating jokes diminished with his upswing in confidence). But this was a big blow. Peopel seem to forget that he did not just watch the events unfold the way we did - he acted it out. He din't hear the words - he said them. He FELT the hatred towards Anya, he WANTED to throw the pan at her head. He DID for a brief time become what he always feared. That would be enough to rattle anyone's confidence.
Xander's part of Restless.. by Thalya	Mar 6th, 2002 10:31:08 AM
er, Mithril, everything else is great, but I think I might've seen Restless too many times: I'm pretty sure Cheese Man in Xander's part says "These [cheese slices] will not protect you.". (aka, "enough with the sidekick business already, even Buffy can't help you on your journey) He might've done a motion like you described though, I'm fuzzy on that. But what really struck me as I was fading off to sleep last night was I remembered one of the parts in the basement where there's alot of knocking on the door upstairs and Xander says "That's not the way out..", and then later his dad is at the top yelling what's the matter with him, saying "Your mother's crying her guts out.", after which his dad turns into the 1st Slayer (personification of evil?) and rips his heart out! Really quite relevant isn't it?
Buffy's line about "looks like I missed my chance with you" by zel	Mar 6th, 2002 10:45:36 AM
Buffy this season has been different to say the least, but I like it. I just wanted to reference the line Buffy says about missing her chance with Xander... didn't this occur back when Buffy first found out about the engagement? I could've sworn it was in that episode. Anyways, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, it just sounded eerily familiar :)
cast expansion by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 10:51:35 AM
So that's it now, huh? All of the couples are officially split up. Time for the casting agents to get busy. We need to find new partners for Xander, Anya, Buffy, Tara, Spike, Willow -oh, and Dawn while we're at it. Hell, screwing up the group dynamic is half the fun. Maybe Hallie could help. A few well-thought-out wishes could go a long way to increasing the misery. Are ther no dating services in Sunnydale?
GreatOne Redux by Electric_Monk	Mar 6th, 2002 11:05:58 AM
I know I
totally unlike Xander by Jack Burton	Mar 6th, 2002 11:08:34 AM
There is no reason they should not have gotten married. It was a plot twist that was illogical with the characters. Yeah, Xander was scared and worried. Guess what? That's what happens when you get married. You wonder if you're making the right choice, what life will be like, etc, etc. Xander wouldn't have left Anya like that. Hell, I doubt he would have left the church after the old man showed him the vision. He's a stronger character then that. Oh well, it's a TV show. Still, it pissed me off. Buffy has got to start gettting funnier and lighter. The show, while still great overall, is starting to become one hell of a weekly downer.
sodomite? by Jack Burton	Mar 6th, 2002 11:37:35 AM
sorry, I didn't know people still used that word. Since oral sex is technically known as "sodomy" that would pretty much cover everyone with a sex life, hetero and straight, I would think. As for the gay characters on the show, so little is shown with them being romantic (although the musical ep was great with Tara and Willow) and "gay" then the point becomes moot. Who really cares? Willow's continued feelings for Tara are realistic and well done without going overboard. I like that Joss seems to not be using the "witchcraft made her lesbian" excuse. It's cliched and would undermine the seriousness of what the characters have gone through.
to Brunt : Deconstructing Willow by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 11:49:58 AM
See, I'm not so sure that it's quite that black and white with her. She felt the need to do a de-lusting spell to stop herself in season three, and in season four when Oz returned she seemed to honestly be torn between him and Tara. At no point in 'New Moon Rising' does she imply to Oz, Buffy, or anyone else that she's just been fooling herself. In fact, she NEVER chooses Tara over Oz. Oz does his Casablanca moment and bows out, and Willow shows up at Tara's room and takes credit for it. Sweet and romantic, true, but not entirely honest. The writers (well, Kirshner, at any rate) went to great lengths to make sure that Willow doesn't deny her past (present?) attraction to guys in 'Tough Love'. There's a strong implication of bisexuality there. She's labelled herself as gay since, but I'm not sure that that's not just because she's in a gay relationship (in love with Tara) at the moment. Until we get either a) a scene where she openly tells Oz that she never really loved him and was only pretending (highly unlikely) or b) a scene where the others try and set her up with someone else and she says either guys or girls, gender doesn't really matter that much (even more unlikely) then I'm not sure that this is going to be determined definitively. I think the writers have been very careful not to burn any bridges behind them. But I don't think that Willow only likes girls any more than Xander only likes demons or Buffy only likes vamps. I just think that they've shown her falling in love first and then determining a label (straight/gay/whatever) for herself to match after. Or maybe I'm just fooling myself and reading my own baggage into it. Back on topic, though: I also think that Xander would have gone through with the wedding if it had just been a small ceremony with the scoobs (and where the hell was Giles? not even a phone call?). Inviting his parents was the kiss of death. He should have known that.
Damn! Talkback put me back at the top again by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 11:51:30 AM
!!!
Xander you BASTARD! Poor Anya...and is Joss ripping off comic bo by superhero	Mar 6th, 2002 12:19:07 PM
Man, I actually cried at the end of this episode. Call me a girlie man if you must but having just gotten married...Yeesh, that was a heartbreaker. I don't think I've felt so low after an episode of Buffy since THE BODY. The one where Buffy's mom dies. Wow. Did NOT expect this at all... And I just HAVE to say it...next week's Buffy looks TOTALLY clipped from the story arc of John Byrne's NEXT MEN "Lies" where Jasmine wakes up and finds that all of her Next Men madness was all a dream...or was it? Not to mention the fact that the whole Angel's son being whisked away to another dimension looks a lot like the whole "Cable is Cyclops and Jean Grey's son who was kidnapped and stolen to the future" thing. Or Peter Parker and Mary Jane have the "stillborn" baby that isn't really dead but was just kidnapped by his greatest enemy thing. Gotta love Joss Whedon. He rips off the comic book geekiness but he does it so well that I just can't seem to really care. Keep goin' Joss and crew. I fully expect to see an orphan infant trapped on earth who is given ungodly powers by earth's sun turn up on either Angel or Buffy any day now!:O):OP
Various by Braider	Mar 6th, 2002 12:32:31 PM
BS breakup/amulet: I thought it interesting that they did that cut, but the cut also showed that Halfrek's necklace looked the same in demon or human form, and it wasn't the same necklace Buffy was wearing. Also, Buffy seems to know that a break-up has occurred. *** Did anyone else find it suspicious that a guy who has been stuck in a hell dimension since 1914 suddenly knows where and when to show up, with what visions to show Xander to ruin Anya's life? How did he get /out/ of the hell dimension? I think that Anya's friends were worried for her, and decided to arrange for her to come back. Remember - she wasn't allowed to have the job when she actively wanted it. I think they had to actively want her - and then they arranged for her to want to come back. ** Sadly, Xander's current life decision seems more likely to turn him into the kind of person he's trying to avoid becoming. Also, it's been patently obvious that Xander NEVER got over Buffy - it just got sublimated. He'll need to deal with that to be happy with Anya.
Crappy out-of-left-field writing does not = "character-driven" by PrincessFlavia	Mar 6th, 2002 12:54:29 PM
Yes, Xander has had cold feet moments throughout the season (his reluctance to announce the engagement, the song in OMWF), but he always overcame them because of his love for Anya. HE was the one to finally announce the engagement to everyone. And what about last week's "the wedding is not the marriage" scene? Just poorly written, 'cause just as Hostile 17 said, God forbid if ANYONE is happy for one minute. I also agree with whoever mentioned the absense of Xander in the middle of the episode; maybe his final decision would have made more sense if there had been more build-up to it, other than the old 1914 demon man's mojo. I really hope Anya doesn't go all vengence-y again because it's a step backwards. Emma did a great job in the episode, though. My heart broke for her when she was practicing her vows ("I understand love now"), because I knew what was coming (hey, I can't live spoiler-free). Bad episode, but I did like the brief Spike/Buffy scene and the interaction between Willow/Tara. I even liked the little moment between Dawn and the demon teenager. LAST WORD Pt. 1: How difficult would it have been to write in one line explaining why Giles wasn't there? I mean, was or wasn't the man their surrogate father for five years? He's been gone for a couple of months and there's never a mention of him. Just another example of poor writing. LAST WORD Pt. 2: My sister picked up on this one, so I can't take credit, but...Anyone catch the two "glowing" references uttered by/to Buffy last night? Significant, or merely random word repetition?
Demon ears? Isn't Anya human now? by Lizzybeth	Mar 6th, 2002 12:57:06 PM
Nice touch. I guess Fake-Xander couldn't resist giving "Sarah" a more interesting parentage - must have been checking out the other wedding guests beforehand. He figured out pretty quick exactly what would be Xander's darkest fear, didn't he? Anyway - What I've seen of this season is as good as ever.. but unfortunately I've only seen two episodes this whole season (because of outside circumstances, of course I would have watched if I could) so that's not much to judge by. Both were excellent: Once More With Feeling and Hell's Bells. I rather wish Joss had directed this episode, though, it's a pivotal one for Xander and it would have been better under his hand. We ought to get 2-3 Joss eps a season if at all possible. If he's not directing the season finale, I say we storm Mutant Enemy and accuse him of abandonment. As far as the plot goes this has been coming for Xander for a long time, and I hope this means he will be getting some more story now. He's been stuck in the background ever since Anya showed up (well, somewhat before that, but much moreso since Anya became his other half) and maybe this will start a new story arc for him. Anyone who doesn't understand why he didn't marry Anya, go watch "Restless" again. He's still in the basement.
No reason to have gay characters?! by BiPolarBear	Mar 6th, 2002 01:03:03 PM
Okay... There's a lot in this talkback I feel I need to talk about. Mostly concerning the debate about homosexuality. As one of the gay talkbackers, obviously it's hard for me not to have strong feeligns on the issue. I won't even get into the etymology of the word "sodomite" and the fact that its constant use by certain people to refer to homosexuals denotes, like it or not, a Bible-based opinion regarding gays. Or maybe I will get into it. Actually, I kind of already did. But to say that there is no reason to have a gay character on the show other than to push the envelope... that doesn't even make sense. I mean, maybe there's no sepcific reason for it, but there's no real reason NOT to, either. It's like saying they should get rid of Gunn on Angel because there's no reason to have a black person on the show. The only reason for Gunn to be on the show and be black is that black people exist, and why wouldn't one of them end up doing what Gunn is doing? Similarly, homosexuals do exist in this world, and there's not a single good reason that there shouldn't be a gay couple on this show. Especially seeing as how it takes place in a college town... you can sure bet there's going to be some queers around. AND... if the Willow/Tara relationship only exists to push the envelope... then Dawn only exists because the networks demanded a younger character to appeal to teens. So what? They're still solid, well-written characters (or at least, they used to be). And bravo for pushing the envelope, as long as people react the way we've seen displayed on the talkbacks, it's an envelope worth pushing.
I agree bipolarbear by Wompaone	Mar 6th, 2002 01:22:14 PM
No need to have gay characters? If anything there needs to be more. Being gay I actually like Willow and Tara as a couple and have read magazines (Ok it was teen people) where writter have stated that just seeing them on the screen made them feel better about who they were. Not everyone out there is a breeder and I totally agree with bipolar bear. Besides Willow wasn't the first openly gay character on Buffy, anyone remember Percy?
Xander: The Closeted Dickhead by Mr. Smegma	Mar 6th, 2002 01:23:55 PM
Last pass here. If the arc was meant to have Xander back out at the last second, fine. But you've got to give us more than nervous chip eating and altogether normal jitters to offset what we've seen to be real HEROIC action by a character. In short, we must catch a glimpse of Xander's inner dickhead, the guy who'd turn tail and leave sorrow and pain in his wake all the while protesting he had no choice. I'm GUESSING we are to sense that Xander just couldn't close the door on Buffy forever. I further GUESS that if Giles had still been around the writers would've had him smoke out Xander's dilemma ("You still [sip tea] love her.") and give it some flesh. Then we might begin to make sense out of Xander's about-face. But what they've given us just doesn't fly.
Pass the kleenix - NOT by Smugbug	Mar 6th, 2002 01:33:17 PM
I didn't cry. I FELT for Anya more than anything else. And I wasn't angry at Xander - because his sudden cold feet felt so odd. Especially after his and Anya's talk last week while locked in their bathroom. It would have made more sense to me if he looked at his Dad and realized he wasn't anything like him - and went on with the wedding. Especially after watching this show since it's beginnings and witnessed many brave moments of Xander's young life. So, I couldn't be upset at Xander. Instead I was upset at the writers for trying to make a "see, you thought they were going to live 'happily ever after', but we had other plans" plot AGAIN. There was a question in a previous post saying that Angel has been more dramatic, however feelings were stronger for the characters on Buffy. I don't buy that at all. The characters on Angel feel more real and I care for them more deeply right now than those on Buffy. Characters on Buffy seem more like devices for the surprise plot developments - the writers don't seem to really care right now for the Buffy characters. I do have to say that one nice touch was the scene between Buffy and Spike. That was a pleasant moment. But the only moment I felt anything for in the ep - which is much like the season so far.
Not to be too picky, Wompaone, but... by BiPolarBear	Mar 6th, 2002 01:39:14 PM
Percy wasn't gay. You're thinking of Larry, whom Amy was hoping would ask her to prom. Sez Willow: "One, Larry's gay. Two, Larry's dead. And three... well, high school, it's kind of... over." LOL!
In the Basement by Braider	Mar 6th, 2002 01:44:11 PM
What someone said about Xander being stuck in the basement reminds me of the philisophical theory that most people mentally live in a big, airy house, but often don't find their way out of the basement. To move up into the house, they have to deal with their issues, explore their psyche. This means that Xander's dream basement is pretty significant - he thinks that upstairs isn't the way out, but it is - he just has to deal with his parents in order to go that direction. I wonder if Whedon reads philosophy or if this idea is just a load of wind and piss?
more on Dawn as BSD by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 01:56:53 PM
Let's see if this one gets stuck at the top out of order. Anyone else amused by how few female vamps there are in Sunnydale? Wouldn't you think that the guy vamps would be more likely to 'turn' girls? I know there's a sexual politics issue on the show and that Buffy's always fighting guys (excepting Glory) but shouldn't there be a lot more around than there are? Considering how sexy vamp!Willow was, I would think the makeup crew would be having fun with this.
Xander's reaction a blast from the past?? by Darth Cheesi	Mar 6th, 2002 02:02:43 PM
A lot of people are annoyed because X's reaction seemed out-of-character, or hadn't been foreshadowed. But I think part of the reason Xander backed out was because he was sort of in shock, and I think part of the reason for that was that he hadn't been worrying (beyond the usual nerves). We know he used to worry about becoming like his father (eg. from the primal-slayer dream ep.). My personal theory is that X's whole 'loser' vibe early on was somehow a reflection of those fears & assumptions about himself. But since he got serious with Anya, I think he felt that he was safe from that. The two of them got along so well, and she boosted his ego so efficiently, that he finally escaped some of those demons. When the badguy showed him those images, all those old forgotten doubts came crashing in on him again, and it was just too much at once. The bg's timing was perfect: any other day, and he would have just gone away to think it over; eventually he would have gotten over it. But on that day, he didn't have the luxury of time to think it out. So he panicked and made a mistake. **** The other thing that finally dawned on me in this episode (maybe I'm just slow?): Xander's never really had many close male friends. His best friend since K-12 was a girl, and we've never seen any "Xander Drinking Buddies(tm)". Other than the various Slayer/Willow boyfriends (who he's never trusted), there's never been a guy there to slap some sense into him. It was obvious from the X&W in the kitchen scene that he didn't feel comfortable talking about his fears with Willow; I think if she were a he, he might have been. At least he wouldn't have worried about it getting back to Anya.
Where is the continuity, folks?! by dulcet execution	Mar 6th, 2002 02:13:02 PM
After watching "Hell's Bells" it just cemented more to me the fact that Buffy is just losing it. The thing that made Buffy so great to me (and probably a lot of others) in past seasons is it's AMAZING continuity. It was very realistic for characters to reference events that happened in past shows- and rare to find a tv show that does that. (usually it seems like the characters aren't even aware of their previous actions.) Last week's ep, AYW, was the worse episode of Buffy EVER, much due to the unrealistic reactions (or NON-reaction) of Riley finding Buffy in bed w/ Spike, Riley's lameass Wifey, and Buffy's TOTAL lack of jealousy. Also, where was the "Hey Riley, a lot has happened... My mom died and then we fought a goddess and then I died and Giles left" conversation? I'm, uh.. pretty sure that Riley would have said something when he walked into the Sommers' house and Joyce wasn't there, but no. Not a word. On to Hell's Bells. WTF?! I had known from reading a spoiler that Xander was going to walk out on the wedding, but after the whole thing with him running back in at the exact same moment Anya was getting the hell beat out of her (and why DID he come back anyway? what, was he standing around the front of the church? there was NO reason to come back in if he was going to cancel the wedding) I thought he might go forward with it. Anya's vows were heartbreaking, and like it has been said already here, there was absolutely NO character reason for Xander to be such a pussy, especially after last week's "your wedding isn't your marriage" speech. I thought that pretty much cleared up their doubts, and they shouldn't have included it if they were going to have the wedding end this way. Was definitely NOT realistic, and the continuity is SO destroyed now. I used to like how the little things in one ep would come back to be a BIG thing in another ep, and I'm just not seeing it here. At least before they were realistic, but not now. Also, the whole Spike/Doctor thing was lame because no one gave him a change to explain. Spike would have no reason to engage in such a thing for real evil purposes because like someone said- he really does have to remind himself that he's evil, or he does forget! I do think that if he really was "the doctor" he was doing it to get money for Buffy so she didn't have to work at DMP. I understand that since Angel and Buffy are on different networks, crossover eps are difficult/impossible to maneuver so that explains why Cordy wasn't there. (I really don't see Angel as having any desire to go to the couples wedding anyway) But Giles?! Come ON. Now you know there's no way he wouldn't be there, and yes, there should have at least been a one-liner to explain. That was just... blar.. retarded. Oh, and if this whole Buffy/Xander pairing really does pan out, I seriously will stop watching the show. That is EXTREMELY not characteristic of Buffy, and just a really stupid idea. Lately w/ Buffy the plot twists haven't been twists that you'd say "yes, that was necessary" or the kind that you're like "Wow, that's really interesting!" The plot twists like we saw last night are out of left field, solely to jerk us around and try to shock us. As someone else said before, if I wanted to feel this cheap and manipulated, I'd start watching Passions again.
life by b0beck	Mar 6th, 2002 02:47:20 PM
Let me just toss this out, I think Buffy and the gang have been dealing with this seasons big bad all season long, it's life. You grow up and you start dealing with responsibility, loss and pain and one day you wake up to the fact that life ain't easy. Think about it, Buffy was happy in the afterlife then she's yanked back to this thing we call life and since then she's been miserable. The tone of the season is set by Buffy's coming to grips with adulthood which is never easy. The nerds of doom, a mere annoyance, paying the mortgage every month now there's a real for you!
Nicholas Brendon must love it that we're all talking about h by Thalya	Mar 6th, 2002 02:48:13 PM
Just a few quick things to toss into the criticism mix stewing about. No one's really mentioned OMWF and it's implications. The only other time Xander's resorted to magic for anything was in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bedeviled and that was years upon years ago, so he supposedly learned his lesson. That he resorted to it again, and on his own without anyone else's knowledge is an indication about his real fears and how deep-seeded they were. The exposition that we all might have required may not have been there, but the implication sure was. And furthermore, there has been a pattern with Xander all this season at least, that he's always been rather protective of Anya. He'll be the big man and reassure her, not thinking of himself (think OaFA). That's the thing, he loves her so much he wants to protect her, and that includes from himself, and he'd rather not put her at risk in any way. That said, I do think alot of the criticisms like X coming back in in the nick of time to save Anya are valid (I thought that myself when I saw it). The problem is, like the characters, the episodes are getting too isolated from one another, losing the sense of continuum.
Maybe...... by Haunted Mind	Mar 6th, 2002 02:51:30 PM
Xander's gay.... Seriously, maybe this little breakup means that our favorite Vengence Demon will be the new Big Bad. Chew on this, maybe Buffy, Spike, and Xander, are destined to be intertwined in a bizar love triangle: Kinda like that movie Threesomes! Come to think of it, why doesn't X-man have any male friends? Could it possibly be?????? Nah.........
Hell's Bells indeed by OMightyIsis	Mar 6th, 2002 03:12:44 PM
That ending felt like yet another lame-o last minute "revelation" that will go no where or stay unresolved until the season's, we can only hope, fabulous finale that wraps up everything. We've been duped by these all season! "I was in Heaven until they ripped me out....You came back WRONG....Don't mess with me Amy....William?..." And now will Anya go back to her day job and turn her back on all the personal growth she's made in the last two years or will she tough it out like all other mortals who don't have a choice, and fight to get her man back. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm guessing we won't find out next week. And what about Giles?!? For a show that prides itself on continuity and rewarding the loyal viewers with references of things past, the lack of mentioning Giles (and Joyce!!) is really dissappointing. //(Where is EA69 to chastise us for bitching so much??;)
On the BSD and "life" as the Big Bad by BiPolarBear	Mar 6th, 2002 03:24:47 PM
Whenever someone posts a theory about the supposedly impending BSD, I have to laugh. Or at least smile quietly to myself. If there's to be a BSD, I will believe it when and only when I see it. This is the exact same chain-yanking rumor bullcrap that's been circulated every season since I've been watching this show. This is the third season in a row that everyone is positive that Tara's number is up. I seriously doubt it, as long as Joss is still approving these scripts. Hasn't anyone noticed how much Joss loves this character? Hasn't anyone else noticed that every time there is an episode with major Tara coverage, it's a Joss-written episode? Seriously, starting with Hush, look at all the eps Joss has written. Just off the top of my head: Family-all about Tara The Body-much Tara coverage Once More etc.-Major Tara coverage. Joss loves this character. I doubt we'll see her dead. If they do kill of a Scooby, I hope it's Willow because no amount of backpedaling can undo the horrible mistake they've made with this magic addiction storyline. They've made me hate my formerly favorite character. And I resent the implication that people not enjoying this season as much as years past simply don't get it. I understand what they are trying to do. I get the "life as Big Bad" concept. I'm just not entertained by it. And I don't get why the writers are acting as though growing up and dealing with life is a new concept on this show. Growing up and dealing with life has been the show's core concept from episode one. It's just that they used to do it metaphorically. When the show only seems to be about who's having relationship issues, who's on the wagon and who is having trouble paying the mortgage, it ceases to be a hip horror-drama-comedy series with strict continuity and brilliant dialogue and becomes a soap opera with a smattering of horror-fantasy flavor.
I think I by Lester	Mar 6th, 2002 03:33:14 PM
This whole year has been such a relentless downer. It
complaints, complaints, complaints by 93curr	Mar 6th, 2002 03:44:56 PM
I'd have a lot more sympathy with the people who don't like this season if there weren't such a consistency with the writing. Now some may be saying that this season is consistently bad, but still... If it were only one writer I might buy into it, but how could every single writer on the show at the same time turn sucky? Just not likely. I still see no reason to lose faith that this is in intentional arc. That there's no big bad to fight against just leaves them all feeling useless. Buffy especially. Pulled out of heaven just to sell burgers? Every one of the characters still has stuff that they haven't dealt with (emotionally) on the show. Willow's all proud of herself for staying on the wagon, but she hasn't really publicly acknowledged that the real reason Tara left was her lack of respect for others: Lithe's Bramble (twice!), being willing to move the Bronze customers to another dimension, it's all bad, and that still has to be dealt with. Xander's selfishness. Sure, he loves Anya, but 'cause she makes him feel like a man. He's never really shown that he wants to help her. It's still too one-sided. And, for the record, I believed the character development (or lack thereof) in 'Hell's Bells', but it didn't particularly give me more respect for Xander than I had earlier. Buffy and Spike... well, that's been talked to death here already. And no one's dealing with the fact that Buffy killed herself. It wasn't just a sacrifice. There was that whole "death is your gift" thing, too. The death wish was covered pretty well in 'Fool For Love', and I think that Spike was as observant and accurate as ever. Personally, I think it's all compelling as hell. Bringing into the light all the stuff that got glossed over in previous years. And the disconnect shows. Just look at everyone's posture. Slouching, shoulders drooped. Take a look at the way they portrayed Buffy slaying the vamp in the opening of 'As You Were'. We get a shot of Buffy standing slack, arms dangling by her sides, then cut to a shot of the vamp talking, then the stake slides into his chest at an almost perfect 90 degree angle, then camera shot back to Buffy, still standing there arms down at her sides. No karate-style fighting pose, no muscle tension, nothing. One of these might make me think that it's just bad direction, or bad editing, but it's been like this all year. When the big moment comes, I wouldn't be at all surprise if it's just like thebig "Yay us" at the end of 'Gone'. Until they (the characters, not the writers) deal with this stuff, no one's gonna be happy.
Lester = wuss by Lizzybeth	Mar 6th, 2002 03:46:25 PM
Just kidding. But seriously man, where were you back in seasons 2-3 with the whole Buffy-Angel-eternal-tortured-l ove thing? Jenny dying horribly on the night she was gonna finally get it on w/Giles? The Faith-evil arc ending with her in a coma? Yes, that was a big cheerful ball of fun.
Thayla asked for it- here's some more comparison of Spike an by Geekgrrl	Mar 6th, 2002 03:55:32 PM
Ok
Anyone else think Buffy's preggers?? & X's vision commen by Nerdalicious	Mar 6th, 2002 03:59:52 PM
OK, follow me on this one ... Buffy tells Xander he's glowing, then she jokes that "Oh my God, maybe you're pregnant." Then Spike tells Buffy he likes seeing her happy, and that she's glowing ... hmmmm! Perhaps when a being-with-a-soul has sex with a vamp, a pregnancy always results (i.e., Angelw/soul plus Darla equals baby, now Buffyw/soul plus Spike equals ... Baby Buffyspike!). C'mon people at least it would be a surprise! And all those "Angel is better" folks couldn't say it was lame because y'know, it happened on Angel so it must be cool. ALSO no one has mentioned that in Xander's (fake) future vision Buffy is dead (Xander's back is out due to fighting demons with Buffy but Anya says "That didn't save her did it," then Old Anya says he hasn't touched her since Buffy (dot dot dot). No real point to that I just thought it was interesting not sure what it means. Someone said that the "future Xander" sure figured out Xander's fears fast ... my guess is that the orb just gave form and vision to Xander's deepest existing fears which would explain why they affected him so badly.
Xander's decision was in "RESTLESS"--good call Thalya, and L by MGTHEDJ	Mar 6th, 2002 04:01:22 PM
Long time no see. In "Restless" Xander says in reaction to his parents fighting "That's not the way out." He would not get married. Mutent Enemy has been playing around with the cliches of an aging show and next week will be some type of "It was all a Dream" episode. IMHO they are FUCKING with our heads. {{{(deleting four lines of text)}}}Whoa! What if at the end someone wishes this year had never happened, we then are at the showdown on the tower with Glory and DAWN jumps or they get Doc before he cuts Dawn thus Season 6 never happened. Where is FutureGuy when you need him? P.S. remember: ignore the trolls-----later-----m
Re: Buffy being pregnant by dulcet execution	Mar 6th, 2002 04:05:11 PM
I don't think they would do the whole Buffy being pregnant thing because they just had the whole baby thing on Angel, and as much as I've been hating on this season, I don't think they'd go so low as to borrow and trade storylines. Even if they did twist it up more. I think somewhere in some FAQ it said that vamps can't impregnate humans, but Angel was an exception because he has a soul, which Spike lacks. (even though I think he's a million times sweeter and a better guy that Angel ever was) But I'm not sure where I read that, so don't quote me on it. Anyone else hear anything along those lines?
Buffy preggers? by Lizzybeth	Mar 6th, 2002 04:14:18 PM
I expect if Buffy ever did become pregnant, that would be the end of her slayer days, and a new slayer would be called. It seems obvious to me, anyway. After all, why are Slayers always girls? I'm sure Joss has it set up this way, and it makes sense in vampire lore in a way... what bleeds but doesn't die? (MGTHEDJ - hey. Nice to see the Buffy regulars are still around.)
cordy in the BUFF by js2260	Mar 6th, 2002 04:15:01 PM
Charisma Carpenter (Actress/Angel) to appear naked in a shower with a woman in a new film The Groomsman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am I the only one that noticed? by BurninBullwinkle	Mar 6th, 2002 04:17:14 PM
OK, reading the spoilers and the talkback here it seems everyone missed the whole thing where Sarah tells Xander that "I know you're not my real father!" plus the implications that Anya had been having affairs on the side during the future sequences. I don't think it was Xander who did the fooling around here to produce the floppy-eared daughter.
MGTHEDJ's Idea by dulcet execution	Mar 6th, 2002 04:18:18 PM
Wow, that is a REALLY great idea!! I think that would be an awesome ending to this season. Maybe not a "wish" that it didn't happen because that's been a little overdone, but I do think that is a very intriguing idea. Dawn jumping would be great, and would take care of her horrible character development. Hmmm.. Maybe... something could happen where some Future Guy or other supernatural being, appears to the Gang whenever things are getting REALLY bad this season, and tell them that this has been the ultimate darkness, yadda yadda, and some big lights and explosion happens and they're all back at the platform, with all their future knowledge, and ALSO their past (i.e. spike doesn't stab him in time, etc etc) so they can correct what they did wrong and defeat Glory/Ben in time, without Buffy having to die or any of the disgusting things that happened this season, and that's how they grow up. Because they metaphorically DID, in this "season", seeing all of their darksides, so they can move on without the real repercussions of it. Oh, and then Willow wouldn't have her retarded "addiction." But really, thought-provoking idea, MGTHEDJ!
Neralicious by Hi-Tech Hate	Mar 6th, 2002 04:25:56 PM
I'm with you on the Buffy thing in Xander's visions....maybe the whole reason he chickened out is that he realized he never fully got over Buffy. If so, he knew it wouldn't be fair to Anya. Even in joking, I probably wouldn't offer to have sex with another girl on my wedding day.
Lizzybeth - Sarah's pointed ears by Geekgrrl	Mar 6th, 2002 04:26:47 PM
It was heavily implicated that Xander was not, in fact, Sarah's father. Anya started stepping out after Xander grew distant and refused to touch her anymore.
Anya is the big bad. by originaltdiddy	Mar 6th, 2002 04:28:27 PM
Anya is the big bad. Perhaps she's the Big Scooby Death. Long live Wesley!
Cheese guy by Geekgrrl	Mar 6th, 2002 04:32:35 PM
What the cheese guy said to Xander was, "This will not save you" holding out a row of cheese - or as I like to think of it, a cheesy line. Get it? Anyway, the other significant things w/Xander in restless - He kept saying "That is not the way out" when his father was at the top of the stairs. He left Anya. She told him that she was thinking about taking up vengance again. He ended up back where he started, alone in the basement.
I wondered about the whole glowing thing, too by Geekgrrl	Mar 6th, 2002 04:36:55 PM
But having just had a kid, I can tell you - nobody in the first trimester glows, unless they're glowing green! :-)
KILL XANDER!!! by 2GOLD	Mar 6th, 2002 04:53:13 PM
I've had enough of this guy, it's time to DIE! I hope Anya turns all demon and wipes Xander off the planet for being a little punk. Xander must die, he's not Mr. Normal...he's Mr. Puss. Let him be the BSD, just stuff him in a box already and let him move on to something else. Tara, (she might still bring something to the table) Spike (ARE YOU KIDDING!!! Kill off James? You must be on crack), Willow ( just get back on the magic already), and Dawn (a bratty girl whose 16..wow, that never happens) all might have something to offer. Xander offers nothing, it's time to go. KILL HIM ANYA!!!
Xander's going to die--at Anya's hands by Patois	Mar 6th, 2002 05:05:29 PM
Seemed pretty straightforward to me...Anyaka (VENGENCE demon) is now woman scorned. Where else is she going to take her vengence? Everyone's been speculating about the Scoobie with his/her head under the axe. Well, didn't we pretty much get the drift on Tuesday?
dream a lil dream wit me by sunflr	Mar 6th, 2002 05:43:29 PM
I dont think that this whole season will end up being a dream because Joss doesn't really copy and blatenly steal ideas from others (Dallas had one whole season that was a dream) - oh wait ... I am not sure about Marti. !WOW I didn't know that X's counterpart was 32 WOW!
It's "Formal Wear" not "Four More Where" by Miriam	Mar 6th, 2002 06:39:07 PM
To whoever thought Willow said "You and Me and four more where." - I thought at first that is what she said too, and was also as confused. On playback, I figured out she said "You and me and formal wear.", referring to their awful dresses. ( I liked that line where Buffy said her dress was radioactive.)
It's not all about the Scoobs, its about good writing and wi by cooper2000	Mar 6th, 2002 06:52:27 PM
Ryalto said: Buffy & the scoobs make Buffy. I agree but the Scoobs havent even been fun to watch this season. The show is about good vs evil under the context of getting older and learning. This whole season has been a big waste and it hasnt been entertaining (except the Musical). A year ago I would have stood up for this show but its just "Going through the Motions". Do we really want to see the Slayer doing Spike and using him all year? Do we want to see how humiliating it is for Buffy to work at a fast food restaurant? Sure tragic things happen to good characters but its all in the way you tell a story to keep up the interest of the audience. On the other hand, Angel has been funny and tragic and well written. Something Buffy has not come close to and everything Buffy "USED" to be. I miss it.
I've got a theory by Jack Burton	Mar 6th, 2002 07:24:35 PM
The more I think about it, the more this season has hinged on "Once More With Feeling". From that episode on, all hell has broken loose. This entire season from "OMWF" onwards has dealt with issues brought up in that episode. Even the songs lines have been prophetic: "What can't we face if we're together?" "We can really raise the beam in making marriage a hell" "Where do we go from here? Why is the path unclear. understand we go hand in hand, but we walk alone in fear" Wedding jitters, Spike and Buffy, Willow/Tara breakup, Buffy's life path, Giles leaving, it all began there. I know it sounds simplistic, but that really is the pivotal episode. That is why there is no tangible "big bad", that episode is the proof. They were never really facing the demon in that episode, they were facing themselves. This season is about them growing up, making choices, and coming apart. Their father figure left them and now they are trying to survive on their own. It will not be a dream, and it will not be easily resolved.
PyleanJossWhedon: "Killed by Death", "Bad Eggs" and "Gingerbread by Voice O. Reason	Mar 6th, 2002 07:44:55 PM
You were being sarcastic when you said these were great, dramatic episodes, right?
Buffy as Metaphor by Johnny Spelvin	Mar 6th, 2002 07:52:13 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've only begun watching BTVS as of this season, so I don't have the previous backstories to rely on for where these characters have come from. That being said, I think NOT having watched the progression up to now kind of puts the show in a very different light for me. Throughout this season, I've been constantly drawn to the use of metaphor in the series, how the whole humans vs. demons/vampires conflict is a reflection of our own real world. Last night's ep pounded this realization home to me in a very profound way. It seems as though the metaphor of "hating the other" has become a major focus, and gives this show a relevency that I don't see in many other series. So what if it's not about kicking demon butt every week? The scenes with Xander's dad made me wonder just who the REAL demons are. Let's face it, Xander's dad is a bigot of the worst kind, and who wouldn't want to do everything they could to NOT be a "chip off the old block" especially when we've seen glimpses of the supposed adversaries showing more humanity in many ways (even if it's Spike's expressions of jealousy) than a lot of the "good" humans. For those of you who saw Xander's backing out of the wedding as a sign of weakness -- well, I guess you have to have lived through some serious disfunctionality to understand what a BRAVE thing this was to do. Just like Willow's fight against her "addiction" and the "forbidden B/S romance, he seems to be trying to break a long chain of patterns that inevitably lead to self-destruction.
More from Cooper...... by cooper2000	Mar 6th, 2002 08:09:28 PM
First off.Thanks Sleezy G for being so cool and giving whatever his name what he deserve. You are going to have change your name if this keeps up. Second, Enigma, why should we have to wait through a bad season like this season for a Big payoff next season?????!!??? I usually love this show but I am not going to be patient much longer. Like Redstar said, we dont watch Buffy for Real Life, you watch it to escape. Face it, the writing has been flat this season and if this contines, will many people be around to see the Big eventful Season 7 that you are talking about?????
The "You and me and formal wear" reference by Domi'sInnerChild	Mar 6th, 2002 09:14:11 PM
It wasn't about the awful dress, it was about when Xander and Willow had their first kiss. When they both were getting ready for the prom (the whole forbidden romance arch while they were seeing Oz and Cordy).
Hidden agenda? by Haunted Mind	Mar 6th, 2002 09:20:49 PM
Has anyone besides myself ever felt like there's more to Tara than meets the eye? Remember when she purposely screwed up Willow's "Demon Detection" spell? Hmmmm? I've just always felt like she is too good. She has to be hiding something.
Season 5 Wedding reference by MKL2112	Mar 6th, 2002 09:23:51 PM
Anyone watch today's ep on FX? The one (forgot title) where Spike and Joyce watch "Passions" together and she asks, "What about the wedding?" and Spike says, "Oh, there's no way they'll go through with it!" Very cute. She also asked if Timmy was really dead and Spike says, "No, he's just a doll, they'll sew him back together." Which, of course, is a reference to the real Big Bad this season, Gordo Fantastico (who is, as we all know, half stuffed animal, or "DOLL!"). It FINALLY is all coming together!!!!!
Ok, Life is the Big Bad. WE GET IT!!!!!! by Cajun Lightning	Mar 6th, 2002 09:28:53 PM
But it doesn't make it good TV!!! I told myself I would stop posting because I saw myself becoming a whiny little MagnoliaFan talkback bitch, but fuck. After the last week's episode and this week's monstrocity I am about ready to throw in the towel on what was once my favorite show of all time. It's not that they are trying something different and my feeble mind cannot adjust. It's not because the story line isn't going my way. If they wanted to break away and have a season without a Big Bad, huzzah! Power to 'em! Just don't have it suck. As people have been saying, the continuity of both the characters and events this season are practically skitzo. No mention of Giles at the wedding. It's not like the actor had a falling out, he just went to the BBC. He couldn't send a card? Amy deratted for two eps then gone. Buffy behaving borderline insane when it comes to Spike. Yes it's a complicated relationship and she's been through a lot, blah, blah, but that's no excuse to have the girl behaving like she's on some crazy mood enhancing drug. And this wedding...ok. I know it's cliche to have the wedding episode be a life affirming event but don't make it the most depressing hour on TV simply for the sake of bucking tradition. Holy shit. I can't bare to stop watching something that has become a Tuesday night ritual for 6 years of my life but I have honestly never seen any show go to hell so fast. Christ, even X-Files telegraphed it's decent into suckiness before it imploded in on itself.
ok, some quickies by 2GOLD	Mar 6th, 2002 09:51:07 PM
#1: Tara and Willow can't get back together, does anyone else in the Buffy world realize this? Willow is addicted to magic...she CAN'T DATE A MAGIC PRACTICING WITCH!!! Be like a recovering crack head living with a Columbian Drug Dealer! #2: Xander is really annoying, I mean he grows up and builds a life with a future and he flushes it down the drain. Is he drinking? Yelling at Anya? NO! You're not your father, grow some balls and fix your mistake! Otherwise, enjoy the bolt of lighting Anya fires up your rear. #3: Maybe the real problem with Buffy is she is afraid not of loving Spike, but losing him. Seems like every person Buffy loves, the relationship goes south and they jet. Could be Buffy values Spike being there and can't afford to risk losing him. It sounds crazy but so what. #4: Are demons circus people? Could this really be true? Do you really care if they are? Are the Harris members just stupid? Considering the line of Harris and the Anya line..doesn't it make you worry what their kids would have been like? Well, that's all I got.
dp4m by Naia	Mar 6th, 2002 10:42:49 PM
Your Spike Williamized theory is awesome! That never occurred to me. Bravo. That is all. ~Naia
restless... thalya-geekgrrl -93cur-r smashed. by notspock	Mar 7th, 2002 12:54:15 AM
geekgrrl...very nice job on the han solo/jospeh campbell analysis.< 93curr... the willow bisexual thing.. remember season 5 when xander says "I wish oz was here..." they cut straight to willow from that comment.. I think it's there.< the bronze on buffy.com last night had loads of people calling anya as the bsd...>did anyone notice moriaty last week hinting that holtz's slayer was perhaps a real slayer "funny how she showed up this season" would joss LIE to us????about something big? I mean the cheese man does have some meaning imho and Joss said that was unimportant this season, well I'm over in england and we have just seen smashed...which I found hilarious at the beginning and disturbing at the end. I haven't seen anyone one mention this but it ties in with something thalya was saying.. when buffy kisses spike in the derelict house (in smashed) the music that plays is highly evocative of the music in "restless" when buffy first enters into the desert to fight the first slayer. The link between buffy's inner "struggle" and it's manifestation as her relationship with with spike seems pretty explicit- nice call thalya!!(well I think it was you-) -remember this sequence then ends with buffy looking bored lying under the first slayer while the slayer thrusts the "stake" repeatedly into the ground.. now I said that was a clear freudian symbol (thrusting weapon-intercourse) that links spike to the first slayer.. with the music cue I am now convinced that was what was going on.. I thought the walls cracking(buffy cracking up) as soon as they kissed in smashed was great too (my film studies lecturer taught me that houses are symbolic of the freudian model of the psyche with the basement representing the id or base instincts) how perfect that they should then crash through the floor into the basement. Anyway, I am enjoying season 6 so far.. one more thing, for thalya! Was the "surgeon general" riley with the man who was going to be adam in your opinion the riley who returned in "as you were?" and give my love to ea69 when you next email him, I have never met him, but from his posts he seems like a great guy... NOTSPOCK over and out.
Maybe I should just create a new handle spelled Thayla.. by Thalya	Mar 7th, 2002 01:26:46 AM
..maybe people will write it Thalya.. I get and appreciate the respect and acknowledgement for my contributions, but eesh, I'd rather not have to say something every single TB.. Anyway, a number of points, smaller to larger, and yes I pray this will wind up someplace visible... *1) I first have to say I'm amazed at all the intelligent bitching going on. It's a happy medium! Save for the utterly tired GreatOne/sodomite debate, which gives RightWingers a bad name.. 2) Anyone think a RESTLESS CHECKLIST would be a good idea? I could compile one over the next week since I'll be on Spring Break. To make things go quicker and so it isn't all from one single perspective, could anyone who's interested send me mini-compilations of dream events and dialogue, plus your own interpretations and your thoughts for what may have already transpired from this great prophecy? This would probably prove highly useful because 3) Everyone realizes that there may only be 28 more Buffy episodes TOTAL to air, right? Only 6 more this season, and it seems that alot is going to go down. The parallel ep to Hell's Bells last season was The Body, and everyone knows how things really picked up after that. 4) Does anyone know when Elizabeth Anne Allen will return? I'd practically stake a hotpocket on it and say the next ep Amy's in, Willow will go Dark Phoenix. It seems like, with each remaining ep, one of the Scoobs is going to crash and burn and it's only a matter of who and when. 5) Personal opinion: Buffy's going to wind up with Spike and Willow and Xander will be together in the end. 6) I agree with BiPolarBear & Haunted Mind that given Family was a Joss ep, Tara isn't going to go away so easily and a she may have a darker influence than any of us may have guessed (maybe her family was right..). That could be what blindsides us in the last couple of eps this season. 2GOLD is definitely right on in stating W/T can't happen. T is just too dangerous to W, the power lust would overcome too easily. Now wouldn't that be tragic? 7) It kinda seems all the Scoobs have demons in their significant others. Buffy and Spike, obvious. Tara could be Will's downfall. Remember what Xander says while driving his ice cream truck in Restless? "Excuse me, I'm talking to my demon." 8) MGTHEDJ, good point about intentionally bad writing. There's a pattern developing.. Like CajunLightning said, "[he's] never seen a show go to hell so fast." Perhaps because it literally IS going to hell. Maybe that's the only way the writers can get across what the Scoobs are feeling and experiencing in Sunnydale. Seemingly the only reason they bother to stay is it's Hellmouth City, so perhaps it will once again figure in at the end, and once it's dealt with once and for all, then they can move on and grow up. **9) Finally, I encourage everyone to stick around for one more episode. Things should really come into perspective then. I've got this inkling...many Buffy-as-Slayer issues in play.. Anyway, that's enough from me on this already cluttered board. (good grief, it's only early Thursday..)
Sad sad people... by limpsalot	Mar 7th, 2002 04:28:55 AM
Please, please stop watching the show. If you hate it that much, think about how much time you spend watching it and bitching about it here. Life is short, get one. Watch Jay and Silent Bob and see how truly sad you are.
I just won't shut up... by Mithril	Mar 7th, 2002 05:12:52 AM
Wompaone: It's Larry, not Percy... sheesh, jocks mixed up again. 93curr: been wondering about that myself. "You and me and four more"? Could this have anything to do with the "fourth time's the charm" hint about the BSD? Hmm... Thalya: you maybe right. I can't fuckin' remember, I last saw the ep early this year, so I can't remember it that well. Honestly, "Restless" has had so much to say about last season and especially this season (particularly the Willow and Xander parts)! Darth Cheesi: you are very much correct, my friend. A few talks with Oz (actually, considering how laconic Oz is, calling them talks might be exaggerated) and some snivelly words to the latest Buffy hunk he's jealous at don't make a good male friend network. Xander might be a bit more in touch with his problems if he had some guy friends to talk to. And I do think Xander's decision was realistic, considering the character. *And I can't believe I have to wait like 6 weeks for the next Angel!!! Goddammit!!!
Aragorn/Xander by Luluca	Mar 7th, 2002 06:25:46 AM
If I may be so bold as to make the parallel. Aragorn was afraid of the blood running in his veins. His father had fought against Sauron, but once he
Sorry, one more thing - Aragorn/Xander by Luluca	Mar 7th, 2002 06:43:19 AM
When I said total stranger, I meant it. "FutureXander" was a total stranger. Xander did not recognize him. "FutureXander" was a monster (human or not) who used a shiny ball to tell lies.
God, I by Luluca	Mar 7th, 2002 06:47:14 AM

I was gonna say... Aragorn/Xander by Luluca	Mar 7th, 2002 06:51:10 AM
God, I
Continuity, continuity, continuity by lexy	Mar 7th, 2002 11:43:58 AM
I love this show. We all do. What I love about it the most is that the writers love the characters. However, this season it seems like the writers are bored with their jobs or hate each other and don't bother to read previous scripts or even watch the shows this season. So, someone has to pick up this mess and make it coherant because I am seriously getting pissed off when all of you create the most interesting theories and concepts for this show and I have to watch my favorite show become only a shadow of its former self. I totally agree that you guys should become the new writers because at least you have LOVE for the characters. I'm sorry for the rant because I really do love this show and I was really upset that Giles did not even send a card or gift. TOTALLY out of character!
Geekgrrl - ok, I'll s-p-e-l-l-i-t-o-u-t by Lizzybeth	Mar 7th, 2002 12:53:14 PM
No joke. That's why I said Fake-Xander must have been checking out the guests, since he gave the imaginary daughter the features of the floppy-eared demon fighting with Xander's family. Pretty detailed imaginary vision, no? Perhaps someone gave him a hand, to get Anya back in Vengance-y mode. Fake-Xander could have made a wish for revenge which D'Hoffryn was only too glad to grant..
To 2Gold: by 93curr	Mar 7th, 2002 01:50:17 PM
Have to come to Will and Tara's defense again. Tara's never shown herself to be any kind of enabler. Strikes me as the kind of person who'd get up and close the curtains manually rather than with a wave of her hand. There's been no evidence of any kind of addiction on her part. Why, exactly, couldn't a recovering crack addict live with someone who only used crack occasionally? Only partially kidding here: I still think that Willow's addiction is at least a partial misdirection. Seems to me that the real problem with magic is that it's like buying on credit. You keep making invocations to Hecate/Diana/Osiris/whoever, and eventually the bill is gonna come due. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the fawn sacrifice in 'Bargaining' was just the tip of the iceberg. It's not that Will would necessarily turn evil, or want to open the hellmouth for power, or have any interest in turning herself into a forty foot long serpent, but she has shown such little respect for others that she might certainly put all their lives at risk in order to have pulled off Buffy's resurrection spell. If there's a big break-up fight between them, it would more likely concern this. Of course, it's not beyond Tara to just give up magic voluntarily, if Will asked her to. Remember, Willow came to magic via science, to her it was just another logical step to technopagan, whereas Tara had a more, shall we say, 'organic' route.
Silveragent by Geekgrrl	Mar 7th, 2002 01:53:56 PM
Sheesh, hate it when the talkback order gets all wonky. But anyway, I don't think that it negates my comparison, just because the two actors would not be interchangable, or just because there were different pop culture sources used to create the characters. The Campbellian archetype is used to show the underlying mythic structure, and all I'm saying is that both characters basically serve the same sort of purpose in driving the story. At least at this point. That's the beauty of a Shapeshifter - Spike could morph into even more of a reluctant hero, or he could morph into a Shadow.
Lizzybeth by Geekgrrl	Mar 7th, 2002 01:59:43 PM
Good theory. I like it. hmmmm. D'hoffrin did seem a little to kind to Anya, considering how harsh he was in S4. I don't think she'll accept the offer, though. Methinks that Anya becoming a vengance demon again is a little too obvious. Dawn, on the other hand, does look like she's pissy enough for the job. :-)
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS by azwica	Mar 7th, 2002 02:16:58 PM
I am serious, I am writing some HUGE Spoilers, so if you do NOT want to know, do not read on...OK, here we go...the big death is Tara and she is killed by Warren. This sends Willow into magic in a big way. This season's big bad is the characters themselves. How they react to the world around them and the various things that happen to them. Their responses. Here is another MAJOR spoiler...Anya gets it on with Spike. It is for revenge purposes and unbeknownst to them, Buffy, Willow and Xander see the whole thing when they find the nerd's lair. The nerds had set up a surveillence system and Buffy, Willow and Xander happen upon it just in time to watch the deed take place.
Foreshadowing by dwam0	Mar 7th, 2002 03:31:41 PM
Spike - He has repeatedly been referred to as William this season. This would seem to add fuel to the theory that he will be transformed back to William, making Spike the Big Scooby Death. However, there hasn't been on instance of a Vampire returning to mortal form on the show, so I'd say it's not likely to happen. Given the shows good-bad-good scenarios (Angel, Faith, etc) and bad-good-bad (Cordelia, Joyce - sick, well, dead - etc) I'd say that Spike was due for a "bad" period. And wouldn't it be heartbreaking if he had the chip taken out against his will when he wanted to be William again? Also, he constantly has to remind himself and others that he's "evil" this season. DAWN - She has constantly been the subject of attention of vamps and demons - the teen vamp, Sweet, Hallie. We have taken it just as a device to move the story forward. Even Buffy joked about it ("If it's Tuesday it must be time to save Dawn"). She also was in possession of the amulet D'Hoffryn gave Wilow in case she changed her mind about being a vengeance demon. This would seem to point to her becoming a demon or vamp. The question is why? TARA - the only character on the show who isn't part of the "who am I" storyline of the season. She has served as confessor, confidant, lover, babysitter, friend. And she is on the outside looking in at the gang. She is becoming the Watcher-Mother figure on the show. I think this rules her out as the BSD this season until she isn't needed.
Silveragent by Geekgrrl	Mar 7th, 2002 05:00:16 PM
Yes, we can pretty much say that Lucas was influenced by Campbell. Here's a snippet for proof,"The popular PBS television program The Power of Myth was made in 1985 and 1986 mostly at the ranch of Campbell's friend, the film director George Lucas. His concept of the Hero's Journey was one of the sources for Star Wars film trilogy by Lucas" Need I say more? And personally, I think the reason that the Phantom Menace is so sucky is because Campbell was dead at the time it was made, and Lucas couldn't hear that spinning sound coming from his grave. And I agree that there were some totally racist elements in TPM, whether intentional or not.-------- I don't know for sure, but I think that Campbell was not an antisemite. I did a quick web search, and I found several references to Hero w/a Thousand Faces as a textbook for Judaic Studies classes, so I don't think Jews consider him to be an antisemite. I did find one reference in some sort of Christian editorial, that basically said they thought he was an antisemite, because he didn't view the Jews as having a unique story and history that was exempt from the mythical archetypes.
Talkbacks in crazy order by Geekgrrl	Mar 7th, 2002 05:03:29 PM
I think things are just being shuffled into the middle, like a giant alphabet soup sandwich.
Xander's New Pad by Faith's Favorite	Mar 7th, 2002 05:24:17 PM
Nobody seems to notice that at the end of Hells Bells, Xander moved into that crappy apartment in which Faith used to live. Xander has fond memories of that apartment and bed if you'll remember - the lucky sucker.
About that proposed Restless Checklist by Thalya	Mar 8th, 2002 01:08:39 AM
I'm very interested in doing it. The e-mail address under my handle is very valid for anyone who wants to chip in personal insights on what any little bit of it may mean and how things have played out so far. Also, I'd be willing to do the whole general detailed synopsis, though if anyone wants to nab a character's dream and wring all the details onto the page, I'd be more than happy for volunteers. Anyone want dibs on Willow, Xander, Giles or Buffy? (call 'em on this TB to help avoid confusion, and then we'll see where we are next TB) Can anyone do screen shots? I've got the web space and can pull it all together and keep it up on an ep by ep basis, hopefully. ..and yes, I know, there's been alot of discussion in the past month on Restless, but the TBs have gotten really screwed up order-wise, so I'd like to do more orderly and concise info gathering. Thanks! And I hope we can pull this together. This project might be the next-best thing to writing for the show!
rebecca rand kirshner should be dumped by BuffyLikingGuy	Mar 8th, 2002 07:13:33 AM
...or at least moved to firefly, her writing really isn't very good. This whole her writing for my favourite show isn't working out...and making the event of the season into...that episode, uh not good Sad though cause I'm sure she's the sweetest person in real life...
There is no Thayla by Thalya	Mar 8th, 2002 09:53:16 PM
Silveragent and alferdog, you're overgeneralizing. Things started to take a dive writing-wise around Wrecked, everyone knows that. You're letting that one ep color the rest of the season for you. What about Bargaining, the first 2-part season opener since Welcome to the Hellmouth? What about the hilarity in Life Serial and Tabula Rasa (the latter, btw, also written by RRK)? OMWF? Afterlife? Even bit parts like the clever invisible fight in Gone? I think the problem is the writers may have written themselves into a corner. I think they're intentionally displaying the lack of the supernatural element this season, hence not gosh darn much for a Slayer to do; if anything, demons are getting awful humanlike and humans are getting awful demonlike. Not to mention the foundation of drama is interaction with others, and there just hasn't been much of that for obvious reasons. Now I know, bad unentertaining writing is bad unentertaining writing, at least when it comes to previous standards, but the entire season hasn't been bad writing. If anything, until the characters themselves go bad, they're probably going to act just as well as David Boreanaz can. There's so much internal strife within them, it's literally sucking the life out of them. Of course they're not going to be as snarky and bubbly as back in the relatively care-free days of high school. And until we get to the logical and natural conclusion to this progression, things really aren't going to change. If it really was bad writing, then how come they're staying so true to their characters? It's about time we saw them living in the real world and going through slow rough spots. Up until now they've always had school going on as a backdrop too. Furthermore, how many spoilers have we had for next week's ep? I really think things are going to turn around and we'll get some perspective. Notice how pointedly in this past ep's "Previously on.." that they included the "It's killing me" line. I'm thinking there's alot more to it, and Spike's remark that she was "glowing" plays into that. Now, are you going to help me with my Restless Checklist or not? (and alferdog, my "adject" naivete happens to be part of my being and soul. It goes when I do!)
thalya by km2000	Mar 9th, 2002 10:42:31 AM
as per your idea for restless detailed descriptions--i'm sure you've seen it, but buffyguide.com has a pretty good description up. you should check it out!
Frawley/missed my chance.. by zel	Mar 9th, 2002 02:30:04 PM
I knew it wasn't in this ep... I thought Buffy said that to Xander back when Xander/Anya announced the engagement. I swear seeing that scene play out in the Magic Box, just somethin irking me :)
Frawley/missed my chance.. by zel	Mar 9th, 2002 02:33:09 PM
Yea I knew it wasn't this ep... I swear I remember Buffy saying this to Xander back when Xander/Anya said they were engaged. It was right in front of the cash register at the Magic Box if I remember right.
KM2000 by Thalya	Mar 9th, 2002 03:28:41 PM
Yep, I've seen the buffyguide.com Restless page several times already. What I'm doing is building an online analysis guide so we can keep track of things as they develop. The whole Xander/basement/"That's not the way out" for example.
Tara Death!!!!!!!!!!!! by DawnsBoy	Mar 9th, 2002 07:46:50 PM
Tara is dying! Everyone go to AGLX's site and look at those frigin awesome spoilers! If you go to the kitten board she released the info that tara is the BSD!
Thayla - Restless by Sweetpea	Mar 10th, 2002 03:37:06 AM
Here are some things you can add to the list:- In Xander's dream when Buffy is in the sandpit and Xander sees himself in the ice cream truck Buffy mentions something about him being a "brother?". I think this means the episode where Xander gets split in two and Nicholas Brendon's real life twin brother plays the other Xander. At the same scene Giles and Spike are on the swings - Spike is dressed in tweed and they mention something about being father and son. In Tabula Rasa Spike dresses up in tweed to try and hide from the loan shark (the shark thing is also mentioned in restless "a shark with feet and on land"). When they lose their memories Giles and Spike think they are father and son. In Restless Xander mentions he has cramps - Xander has cramps in "Dead Things" (I think). When Anya drives the ice cream truck by gesturing - Willow does that (by magic) in Wrecked when driving the car with Dawn to get away from a monster. Also Anya says in the ice cream truck that she is thinking of taking up vengence again - this is brought up at the end of "Hells Bells". In Willow's dream Giles gives his speech before the play and mentions the musical numbers - that related to the musical episode. **PS I would love to know if anyone understood the part of Xander's dream when he went to go to the toilet and there was a large medical team watching him? There are more but that's all for now.
total nonsequitor by km2000	Mar 10th, 2002 10:07:23 AM
i know there's lots of excitement about the tara spoilers/bsd and the endless disagreements over the quality of this season. this has nothing to do with either, particularly. i think its somewhat telling that EXACTLY what buffy has always wanted, it seems she is living it! since episode one, hell, since the MOVIE all she has complained about is wanting a normal life. not a supernatural one. not a superhero one. a normal, everyday, boring one. i think the most telling part of when she broke it off with spike is her (first, i'm sure) realization that it is killing her...perhaps this entire season will force her to come to the realization that she IS different, down to her core being. i know, everyone feels that the first slayer thing may be important in explaining things come episodes 21-22. however, never forget that this show is about the journey. buffy must realize herself that her life transcends how others live--and accept it as truth. this is not something that would feel at all right if it was done in even five or six episodes. to convince buffy, the five year pronouncer of the greatness of "normalcy" that said normalcy isn't her endgame, she must be completely in the basement-under the leaky sumppump-algae floating on top of her-rock bottom when she experiences it! i haven't seen restless in a LONG time, but it seems to me that her cheese man may be holding out the two pieces because she can only pick one. and at the end of this season of hellish existence, maybe buffy will realize that giles was right all along when he talked about her being the chosen one for a reason. she really only has one choice (we all know that), but sometimes---people need to realize it themselves. this is very long, i know. but this is still the best show on tv, imho. better than six feet under (saying a lot), sopranos, alias, all of them. how may of those shows are sparking such debate? how many of them have so many people who care? that says something. the writers are still effecting us! lastly, i have faith in joss. he is watching, would not let this all swirl downward like it is without any intervention unless it was meant to happen. period. remember..the agony before the ecstasy!!
Xander by Luluca	Mar 10th, 2002 02:54:37 PM
I don

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