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Interview with Howard Shore, secret coolness from the enhanced score and more!!! Re: Fellowship of the Ring

I love this score by Synner	Nov 21st, 2001 07:19:30 AM
Nuff said.
AMAZING Score... by elwen	Nov 21st, 2001 07:19:59 AM
I got the score the yesterday (listening to it right now actually), and I have to say that it's an amazing piece of music. It flows and feels operatic and magical. I so wish they decide to release the full score, as a 2 CD set. Can't wait to see the movie...
FIRST? by skynetbauxi	Nov 21st, 2001 07:21:13 AM
yeah, Europeans RULE! but so do Americans, of course :-)
What? ONLY 2 HR 58MIN, what happened to the 3 1/2HR estimates f by Gandalf The Grey	Nov 21st, 2001 07:30:08 AM
farken poofta, youse bastards have ripped me off, You providied many rumours suggesting it was much longer (maybe 1 or 2 which match) nevertheless) it should be displayed in real time so that I can experience the action first hand hand rape that farken asshole Saruman farken,1860, be cool to yourself and one another, peace farken.
all of it by talbuckin	Nov 21st, 2001 09:19:29 AM
More than a 2cd set we need a 3cd set so that 180 minutes fits just fine with outtakes and alternates. And considering the amount of Shore bootlegs around maybe this will appear before any legal release. Amazing score, btw. Now all that Shore naysayers can go somewhere else. How about Double Target re-scored by Shore? Not that Stefano Mainetti did a bad job...
where are the "secret" links? by wilko185	Nov 21st, 2001 09:24:23 AM
oh, there they are...sneaky....
This score is AMAZING by europop	Nov 21st, 2001 10:07:36 AM
I have only listened to it once, and it'a already my favourite score of all time. Howard Shore was such an inspired choice, because this score is so fresh, and so unique. The hidden site is great. How lucky are the fans? What other movies have given so much back? As for the PG rating in the UK, I am still waiting for confirmation that none of the movie was cut to achieve this!!
They'll pull a TPM with the music here... by ewem	Nov 21st, 2001 10:15:07 AM
You know that in about 6 months a deluxe 2 CD version of this will come out. I wish they would just do things right the first time, but hey, they know they can sucker people out of their money by putting it out twice.
Score better than Star Wars??? by Warlord92	Nov 21st, 2001 10:27:26 AM
Is it even possible?? In 20 years do ya think it will still be this good..... yessss! Hail & Kill
Bigger longer and Uncut by Kizeesh	Nov 21st, 2001 10:49:07 AM
it is uncut it was on the official BBFC announcement. Great score, I've listened to it loads of times since I bought it, but I still think that Shadow of the Past sounds like something out of Batman Returns.
That PG vs. PG-13 nonsense - shouldn't geeks know a little b by MPG	Nov 21st, 2001 11:12:50 AM
This is a horse that was beaten to death in the last LOTR talkback, but I guess Harry hasn't read it, so I'll repeat it: PG in the UK is DIFFERENT from PG in the US, i.e. there is hardly anything better about LotR getting a PG in the UK than a PG-13 in the US. They are roughly equivalent. The next-highest rating in the UK would have been "12", which would have _prohibited_ kids under 12 from seeing the movie, i.e. it would have been _much_ harsher than PG-13 in the US (which does not keep irresponsible parents from dragging kids of any age into the theatres in any case). From that point of view, UK-PG and US-PG-13 are, like I said, roughly equivalent (or to be more exact, UK-PG is the best equivalent for US-PG-13), and no statement about the "American prigs at the MPAA" can be derived from it. Really, I thought this was a site for movie geeks who would know a little bit about rating systems??? PG in the UK isn't a "kiddie movie rating", it even allows "natural nudity" and "non-frequent and non-explicit sexual scenes". Now imagine that in US-PG. ;)
Decent, but a little too "Hollywood" by Chocky	Nov 21st, 2001 11:28:18 AM
I've listened to the soundtrack at least 4 times now, and although I admit I like it better every time I listen to it, I have to say - it's a little too Hollywood. A young'un who works for me and is forced to listen to my music, remarked that the Hobbit's theme reminded him of Titanic. (NOOOOOOOOO!) Yes it's epic and grand. But it rarely gives me that "escapist" feel which I'm always jonesin' for. The Middle Eastern-style singing in Lothlorien, and the Bridge of Khazad Dum were the only tracks that felt different enough to be "escapist". Oh and by the way, although I don't mind Enya, her music is kinda boring, and sounds too much the same. I wonder if New Line waited until the last minute to grab the most popular artist they could link up to their film project and tossed her in there. I was disappointed that the secret goodies on the CD are mainly Enya-related. Does LoTR really need to rely on Enya fandom to rake in the cash? The Ringwraiths better have original shrieks, is all I can say. If some lazy foley artist cops a scream from Doom I will lodge a formal protest.
the BBFC by Kizeesh	Nov 21st, 2001 11:36:17 AM
good point about the PG rating, The Fifth Element as a PG in the UK and it featured Milla nude (yummy), several large action sequences, much smoking drinking and death and Bruce swearing. Frankly the BBFC has become really lenient of late.
Soundtrack and the ratings by Sith Warrior	Nov 21st, 2001 12:24:08 PM
I've listened to bits and pieces of the soundtrack, and I'm only going to listen to the whole thing once I've seen the film. But what I've heard is magnificent! It's takning quite an effort to stop myself from listening to the whole thing......................... ...........As for the PG rating in the UK, I've taken a look at some past ratings, and it seems that PG here is roughly equivalent to PG-13 in the US. All three JP films were PG here in the UK. But can someone explain why the hell X-Men was rated 12 in the UK? There was no sex, no violence, no nothing, yet that was a 12!!
Shore scored "The Score" before LotR by Hawq	Nov 21st, 2001 12:32:24 PM
Why would anyone want a 2-disc set of the score, when you can just get the DVD of the actual film, and listen to the real score? (And watch it). I'm listening to it right now- it's the first score I ever purchased. It's pretty awesome, I especially like the use of vocals, and all the dark choral passages. The I never doubted the choice of Howard Shore, because I've been trusting PJ's vision for a long time, and I knew he'd make sure everything would come out right...... I have a good suggestion for anyone has a couple of thousand dollars burning a hole in their pockets: Get a big 16x9 high-definition television. DVD's look like film! Especially new ones that are well produced. LotR will kick ass on my home theater. If you love movies, it's a very good investment, and the prices are continuing to drop. At least try to save up for one by the time FotR comes out on DVD. I have one, and I love it. The best looking DVD I've seen so far is The Fifth Element (Superbit Edition). I really hope New Line will put a lot of effort into producing quality LotR DVD's. They need to fill one entire disc with just the movie at the maximum bit rate for the highest quality picture and sound, just like Columbia's Superbit editions. Harry, use your influence! Call your buddy (PJ) and let him know how much difference a well produced DVD makes!
That Enya thing by MPG	Nov 21st, 2001 12:37:22 PM
Enya has been attached to this project for quite a long time. If you listen to the (admittedly somewhat tedious) interview that can be accessed from the soundtrack CD, she says that she and her collaborators saw a very rough cut of the movie (which she liked very much - quite a nice review considering that there probably weren't even any special effects in the rough cut at that time). That must have been nearly a year ago. And yes, "May it Be" is not her strongest song, but it's going to be played after the breaking of the Fellowship and Boromir's death - so I think it's quite fitting. ;) Other than that, I think that it's a rather smart marketing move to emphasize Enya. The hardcore LotR fans are going to buy the CD as well, but this way, hardcore Enya fans can be won both for the soundtrack and the movie as well. But I doubt that it was a marketing decision right from the start. It seems that the decision to include Enya was more between her and Peter Jackson. It's well-known after all that the is a huge LotR fan who is considered by many to have an "elvish" voice. ------------------------------ -- Other than that, there may be a "Hollywood element" in the soundtrack, but we need to remember that not all tracks can be as unconventional as Lothlorien for example, or else the soundtrack may easily distract from the movie. I think Shore has found a good balance between "strange" and "conventional".
9-hour DVD by Boba_Fett	Nov 21st, 2001 01:27:36 PM
Shore said there would eventually be a 9-hour DVD, not a 9-hour cd. Anyways, the score is very good. Though it seems sometimes like the parts with the big ominous-sounding choirs singing are a bit repetitive. But I'll have to listen to the score again in private to be sure. Either way, it will be great in the film. -Fett
Wonderful! by Halloween68	Nov 21st, 2001 01:48:54 PM
A beautiful score with very original sidenote performances. I have to confess that I thought it was good but not great when I first listened to it... But the more and more you listen to it, the better it gets. My favorite by far is the Gandalf's Lamment piece toward the end of the Moria sequence. Wow, I almost bust into tears each time I hear it. The fellowship turning back and watching as Gandalf falls into the chasm with the Balrog... It's such a very sad piece. And whoever said they thought the Enya pieces were boring, how can you say that about Anirion? That bit is very touching and adds wonderful atmosphere. As for Concerning Hobbits, it reminded me a bit Braveheart or Titanic a bit as well when I first heard it, but that was when I heard it from the crappy ass speakers on my laptop. When I got my cd in the mail and popped it into my stereo. Holy Shit! Awesome... I love the differing rhythms of strings and percussion in this one. Way, way different than those afore mentioned scores. I do have to say that I am, however, a little bit peaved by the ripoff that is the limited edition. Come on, all we got for the extra 12 bucks was better packaging. I had heard that we were supposed to get extras with the limited edition, but we ain't got shit that regular's don't have. Oh well, I guess it is kinda nice to have the leather sleeve and the color booklet. Does anybody know if I'm missing something here with this limited edition. I haven't used the enhanced CDROM feature yet, do we get something extra with that? MorGoth, by the way, I think Shore was referring to the DVD eventually being 9 hrs long, the film that is... Although I'm certain there will be a soundtrack feature on the DVDs. Hmmmph. Well, all is great! 28 days to go!!!
Link to secret site? by PotsofClay	Nov 21st, 2001 02:25:44 PM
I bought the limited edition copy of the score yesterday and popped it into my computer and it did... NOTHING... I checked if there was anything on the cd other than the 18 tracks by way of checking out the cd drive on my computer and there was NOTHING. How do you access the dang LINK?!?! THE SCORE IS AWESOME BY THE WAY!!!!!
Great featurettes at secret site! by The Hierophant	Nov 21st, 2001 02:45:25 PM
I wasn't expecting too much when I heard about the secret site that's accessible via the LE soundtrack; but after having visited it yesterday afternoon and having watched the wonderful featurettes and interview with Enya, I have to say that I was impressed! They really have done some nice work on that site, though now that it's available to anybody instead of just those who bought the LE soundtrack there probably isn't much incentive to get the LE soundtrack. Nonetheless, mine's still on order and I'm most excited to hear the whole soundtrack in its full and uninterrupted glory! If only UPS would be a little more prompt, I'd have mine by now... :(
Accessing the enhanced CD features by MPG	Nov 21st, 2001 02:48:00 PM
Well, at least for Windows computers, there's an autostart feature on the CD, i.e. as soon as you put it into your CD drive, it should open a web browser and go to the "hidden" page. I also checked the CD out on my computer and found an HTML file that you can just doubleclick to get to the page. I think it's weird that you wouldn't be able to see that (which operating system is that?). ------------------------------ -- Regarding the special features: From the CD, you can access an Enya interview, five making-of videos and a bunch of other stuff that mostly focusses on Enya and doesn't even interest me (and I consider myself an Enya fan). ;) The Enya interview is a bit long and also tedious as there is no interviewer (i.e. they display the questions on the screen, then Enya answers them). Still she says that she and her collaborators (Nicky&Roma Ryan) loved the rough cut of the movie they have seen. That statement alone was good enough for me. ;) The five making-of videos are quite cool, and probably altogether about 10 minutes long. However, it's obvious that they were cut out of a larger feature, which I suspect to be the LOTR special that is going to be shown on FOX pretty soon. Also, they didn't actually use music from the soundtrack for these videos, which I find quite annoying.
Whatever happened to the digitally adjusted elven faces? by DufusyteII	Nov 21st, 2001 04:08:54 PM
Remember the talk about altering the elves faces digitally to give them a distinctive look? Did that idea fall by the wayside? The trailers do not show this effect, and the supposed Geek who previewed the film did not mention it, so apparently it is not going to happen (unless it is a top secret element that is purposely not applied to the trailers, and the Geek was full of stuffing, or extremely unobservant). btw, regarding the score, PJ & Shore have entirely the right idea. "All male voices for Moria due to the male oriented dwarvish culture." Statments like this show these guys are totally on track. I'm surprised Boyens had to write original poems. I would have thought they could just translate relevant passages from the Silmarillien into the relevant language if they needed any lyrics. For example, if they needed a poem/lyrics about the ring-wraiths in ancient human toungue, couldn't they find something written in verse (or not in verse) in the Silmarillien vaguely dealing with the ancient kingdoms of men, and translate that? With such an abundance of Tolkien writings, it seems odd to have to write any new verses from scratch. Coals to Newcastle, as it were. "Uh, we had to compose some new poems because we couldn't find anything in Tolkien." Really?
Now that you mention it... by MPG	Nov 21st, 2001 04:16:49 PM
...I remember seeing the picture of an Elf quite a long time ago with his skin having a really strange color. Perhaps that was fake? Perhaps they decided it may be too weird?
clarification by DufusyteII	Nov 21st, 2001 04:18:37 PM
I mean, the Ringwraiths were supposed to be ancient human kings who had been turned to the service of Sauron, no? So a passage about ancient human kingdoms in the Silmarillien (sp?) could theoretically be speaking of these kings themselves, or at least it would be speaking about the events of their lifetime (more or less), or of their original culture. The main point is that the text from the Silm would be, as it were, a part of the "culture" of the men who are the Ringwraiths. When set to music, the text could be (theoretically) supposed to be some ballad from ancient human culture or something. Hmm, has this post been a clarification or just additional confusion?
Score doesn't really have mainstream appeal... by virkku	Nov 21st, 2001 04:34:09 PM
...In a similar way as Star Wars for example. This is a very subtle score and takes several times to listen before you really learn to appreciate it. For example Shore never gives us a full-blown Fellowship Theme, the beautiful melody only surfaces occasionally and then disappears again. John Williams has a tendency to force the themes down our throats with lot's of repetition (not necessarily a bad thing, I dig most of his stuff). Most people probably equal easy accessibility with quality. That's why I don't think the LOTR score is going to make much of an impact on charts, even if it is an excellent score. I also think that it's going to be more appreciated by people who have a wider knowledge on film scores and classical music. Anyway, it should work great in the context of the film.
more... Forgot about Enya... by virkku	Nov 21st, 2001 04:39:37 PM
Of course there are the two Enya songs that will help it. Sorry, I've been listening to the streaming media, so I forgot about Enya...
Shore's score is sublime. by Butch_McTavish	Nov 21st, 2001 05:01:36 PM
Howard Shore's orchestral score is exactly what LOTR: FOTR needs. It has a nobility, sophistication and originality that I haven't heard since I took "Music Appreciation" in college. This isn't just some pop art amalgamation that ol' time, Saturday afternoon, sci-fi serials are made of. It is a brave, bold, heart-felt, and sensitive musical accompaniment to the epic events that will soon be unfurled before us. No modernist references here, folks. It's almost as if the music was written by a resident artist from Arda -- it seems that authentic (the elvish singing and dwarvish guttural tones that occur at appropriate intervals greatly contribute to this other-worldly atmosphere). This music contains all the gravity and majesty one would expect from a historical rendition of this magnitude. Just don't expect to take it all in in only one sitting. Open a good bottle of wine (as Gandalf, I prefer red), turn off the lights and light a candle, sit, and play Shore's Middle Earth music till Dec. 19. You know what to do once that day dawns.
Numenorian National Anthem by DufusyteII	Nov 21st, 2001 05:20:13 PM
They should just take the passage about the fall of Numenor and translate it and use it as the lyric text. Even though the text would not specifically describe the scene at hand (Chase to the fyord or whatever), nevertheless it would be appropriate whenever Ringwraiths are on screen since then are the kings of fallen Numenor. ******* In some WETA interview they were talking about the digital re-touches done to the film, and they said even some of the drama was re-touched. I'm not sure if this means they are slightly altering facial expressions to give somebody the perfect scowl or what. I still say Viggo looks like a villain in all the trailers I've seen. When he becomes kingly in the subsequent films, I hope they can digitally impose a regal face on his otherwise naturally villainous visage. heh. I still say he should have been cast as Sauron or the WitchKing. Whenever Sean Bean's face pops up, he always looks like the King, and Viggo like some evil henchman. Back in the days of casting discussions, there was some dude vigorously advocating Bean for Aragorn. I suspected that it was Bean's agent in disguise. Truth is, Bean would have been a great Aragorn, not only because he has the powerful and commanding look, but also because his prior roles as villains would make the first time viewer regard him as a villain at Bree, which is how the hobbits perceive him. Then, when Bean is revealed as the King in Exile, it would be a truly unexpected plot twist for the audience, since most people unfamiliar with the books would be genuinely surprised to see that Bean's character was not the villain after all. Ah well, all too late for this.
My bad about Enya but . . . by Chocky	Nov 21st, 2001 05:24:56 PM
OK so Enya has been attached to this for a long time. I apologize for saying they threw her in at the last minute to capitalize on her current popularity. At the 5th or 6th listening and I still stand by my initial assessments. This soundtrack says to me "YOU ARE WATCHING A BIG HOLLYWOOD MOVIE! BE IMPRESSED! BE VERY, VERY IMPRESSED!" It reminds me of Conan and some other fantasy soundtrack (not sure, it might be Krull). It ain't bad but it ain't the cat's pajamas, either. I think some of my fellow LoTR fans are so excited about the movies, they would be equally happy if Trevor Rabin wrote the score and Celine Dion was singing. As always I hope to be proved wrong on these criticisms. -- Both feet firmly planted in mouth, the Chockster. (or should I start calling myself Stormcrow??)
ewem- there already is a 2 CD set out [limited edition] by Sir Mordred	Nov 21st, 2001 08:18:22 PM
IF by her recent success you men the Time song... Enya was in NZ working with Howard at least 6 months ago. I remember those Dufusyte [the original] wars about Loreena and Enya. The Ringwraiths shriek? __ MPG __ That she is also a fan can be seen by her song entitled "Lothlorien." __ Morg, dammit, Ingold and Pallando were infatuated with NG, I just remember it... As I do Elsie and Tinuvel70. __ I haven't heard teh score, but I'm glad I'm hearing that it isn't a distinct sound we're gonna remember. I don't want to remember LOTR for that one theme... nor do I want to remember it for any one thing. But then again I'm weird. __ Indeed, dufusyteII, too late, but it's a great idea- and Boromir as Viggo would be closer to 'raven-haired' than Bean is.
The limited edition is _not_ a 2 CD set! by MPG	Nov 21st, 2001 08:25:32 PM
At least in the US it isn't. The only difference between the two editions is that the limited edition comes in a nice leather package and the booklet is a bit nicer (but doesn't have additional contents). Note that Amazon UK advertises the limited edition as 2 CD set, but I somehow doubt that they would have a different edition in the UK. I haven't heard from anyone in the UK yet though who got the limited edition.
OK.. I was wrong about the limited thingy by Sir Mordred	Nov 21st, 2001 08:27:44 PM
Like I said, I haven't heard it... and for some words from Shore... [Moaters come back for this if only to congratulate him] "The Fellowship of the Ring is just Act One of a three act piece. The other films are not sequels - they're a part of the continuing story." Hell Yes!
hindsight = 20/20 by DufusyteII	Nov 21st, 2001 08:38:06 PM
yeah, and actually having Bean as Boromir totally spoils it, since Boromir is supposed to start off good, and then surprise everybody by becoming bad, but with Bean as the actor, as soon as he appears on screen the audience already pegs him as a bad guy, so the turncoat plot twist is entirely spoiled. w00t! I am so right about this. What? I'm a year too late? Oh, yeah. oh well...
It seems the world is divided into two groups of people.... by wilko185	Nov 21st, 2001 09:55:49 PM
....those who have bought the LOTR soundtrack, and those who are going to. For anyone here in the second group (like me), wanting some direct links to cool stuff on the secret site, check the punctuation in Harry's post. Like I said....sneaky. (Um, you hadn't all spotted this and were keeping quiet so as not to spoil it were you?)
Link??? Punctuation??? by PotsofClay	Nov 21st, 2001 11:26:02 PM
I still can't access the secret link no matter what I do! I have Windows 98 and bought the limited edition leather copy of the score and get to the secret stuff!!! I'm a little ticked off right now... Someone here said to look at the punctuation of Harry's post... what the hell does that mean?! What punctuation?! Is there a direct link?! I feel like I got ripped off here, and I don't want to go out and buy another copy of the non-limited edition just to go the the site... Is there someone here who can let me know what the site is by e-mail ing me?! I'd really appreciate it...
get my email, potsofclay? by wilko185	Nov 22nd, 2001 12:12:34 AM
(I obviously waste too much time looking at this site....) Is this secret stuff only available via the Windows platform (or not even there for some folks)?. Have any Mac or Linux users got this "secret link"? Well, I guess it's only an extra, so musn't grumble... the CD packaging doesn't promise any bonuses, after all.
Ah, so LOTR is a CWtH/BoP allegory by wilko185	Nov 22nd, 2001 12:42:27 AM
is that what you're saying Miami? Is it??? This gives me a new insight into the text. So THAT's the sole meaning of LOTR... ;) ___ Seriously, "balance of power" might sound at first like a neat plot-summation, but it soooo misses the point it's not funny. In fact, it's finally persuaded me to stop looking at fast-food packaging for in-depth literary criticism...
(Holding Aloft) I HAVE IT. IIIIIIIIIIIIII HAVE IT. by RowanM	Nov 22nd, 2001 05:12:06 AM
I couldn't believe how absent minded I was when I read in an earlier post that the soundtrack was out. I was thinking that it wasn't out 'till the 20th. Then I realised it was the 22nd already. HOLY SHIT it's been out two days already. A mad rush was made for my mobile phone. TAXI!..................Well I'm just back and I'm about to immerse myself in idle bliss.....Later.
Verdict is a very positive one. by RowanM	Nov 22nd, 2001 07:36:32 AM
Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Raw power unleashed. That lament for Gandalf scene is beautiful and moving. The recurring Hobbit theme is like a warm feeling of hope in the midst of utter chaos. The Fellowship theme is another majestic sweep of combined defiance in the face of evil. The themes of forboding and impending doom made me wanna go "OH MY F**KING GOD. IT'S COMING FOR YOU. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES." This is gonna be so sweet.
Australian LOTR fans by Conan_the_Humble	Nov 22nd, 2001 08:36:22 AM
Does anyone in Australia, more specifically Brisbane know where you can get this CD? I can't even find anywhere that knows anything about it, bar the WWW... Cheers.
Cold War? by Wet Moose	Nov 22nd, 2001 02:14:08 PM

Cold War? by Wet Moose	Nov 22nd, 2001 02:17:38 PM
Oops. Could someone explain to me how LOTR is in any way remotely connected to the cold war. Seeing as most of the story was written before the Cold War even began. Not being a fast food afficianado I'm woefully ignorant on the subject and if any of you Burger King gurus would be willing to explain I'd be happy to listen.
wet moose by wilko185	Nov 23rd, 2001 01:53:01 AM
ignore me, I was babbling (blame the Old Toby :). ____ ____ Back to the plot, it seems the hobbits' stop at Crickhollow is out, cause Shore says in the interview "You'll first hear the Fellowship theme forming in the film when Frodo leaves Hobbiton with Sam on his way to Bree - but it's just a fragment of the theme.
'LotR' as cinematic revolution. by Billy Talent	Nov 23rd, 2001 02:16:32 AM
I'm a little curious as to comments to the effect that 'LotR' will change the face of cinema. Don't mistake, I'm excited about these films; I've no doubt they'll be enormous commercially, and I'm looking forward to a superior genre entertainment. However, slavishly adapted from a famous novel, coming from an intermittently interesting but mostly undistinguished director, and following a quarter century of expensive, effects laden fantasy/adventure films, how could this possibly be as groundbreaking a film as, say, 'Star Wars'? I don't want to get into that argument again. My own bias is to be more excited over 'AotC', however I have fewer aprehensions about 'Rings'. That said, I've no doubt Jackson is borrowing a lot more from Lucas than Lucas ever borrowed from Tolkien. I'm looking forward to a great story well told, with lots of action and above average effects, but can someone please tell me what's going to be so god damned revolutionary about these films? Haven't we all been there and done that before?
maybe "revolutionary" is the wrong word by wilko185	Nov 23rd, 2001 02:55:32 AM
but lotr is probably unprecedented in terms of scale, at least. We have essentially a 9 hour film adaptation of a truly unique story. The book achieves an epic sense of scale which other more bloated fantasy series can't match, and is at the same time rich in detail and nuances. If most of this makes it onto the screen lotr should be the best fantasy films yet. Maybe when the Star Wars series is finished it will top LOTR, but as of now I would suggest SW is hitting 2 for 4. LOTR could be the first fantasy series to really deliver on its promise (MHO, of course. And I don't really like talking in terms of "competition in the fantasy genre", but SW is the closest comparison). ___ Also lotr is being directed by an auteur, who by all accounts assembled a crew who are completely sympathetic with the source material, and are fanatical about doing it justice. If you think they are slavishly adapting the book, you should visit some tolkien-fan websites. Jackson is pushing through some minor but consequential plot changes, much to the dismay of hardcore fans (like me :). He is quite rightly doing what's best to make a good movie. In the few cases where this might conflict with the text, he has the balls to make changes. ____ There has been 100% positive reaction to the little that's been seen of FOTR thus far. I for one am hopeful of a step forward in the quality of fantasy movies (or let's say, of genre movies). I'm not making wild claims yet though. But if Fellowship delivers, I'm afraid you should expect lots of assertions for the next 2 films already in the can....
Dr. Floyd by Sir Mordred	Nov 23rd, 2001 03:38:27 AM
Ok, I'll try to say this without pissing people off. And it's not bad, so it shouldn't, but there's some weird people out there. Star Wars apparently opened up the mainstream audience to science fiction, cause 2001 wasn't mainstream enough. And for teh mainstream... fantasy movies haven't been doing much. I think the idea is LOTR will do for fantasy what Star Wars did for sci-fi.
Revolutionary LOTR... by virkku	Nov 23rd, 2001 03:44:01 AM
I haven't talked about the film as possibly revolutionary at any point. However, this is in my opinion the first time EVER that a huge, big-budget action-adventure film might have the depth and poetry that we are used to seeing only in drama/art-house films. Even the very best adventure films seem to be lacking in terms of script and acting. A "perfect" representative of it's genre like "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" has great script and superb acting, but even it comes off as a bit cheesy and lightweight. Intentionally so, since it's drawing it's inspiration on old B-serials. When I think of LOTR I'm hoping for a film with the scope of Star Wars combined with the poetry and vision of Heavenly Creatures, combined with the great story of Tolkien. If it's succesful, it's going to be a kind of combination we have never seen before and in that sense might be considered as "revolutionary". My biggest fear with the film is that PJ has abandoned the poetry, darkness and depth of the book and has chosen to do 3 hours of escapist, lightweight popcorn fun. Even then the film would be worth seeing, maybe several times, but it would fall short of it's potential.
Revolutionary vs "Playing it safe" by DufusyteII	Nov 23rd, 2001 05:50:27 AM
These films are not trying to be revolutionary, in fact, they are "playing it safe" and presenting the lotr as merely a well done typical 90's action flick. They have edited out the truly distinct essence of Tolkien, and left in merely the carcass of adventure. To the films' credit, it is a better presentation of the lotr than Bakshi or any other dramatization so far. Also to the films' credit, they successfully executed the herculean feat of filming three films at once. PJ and company also at times manifest a very strong and sincere desire to be faithful to the essence of Tolkien, but I fear that they took the "safe route" on several key issues, choosing to edit out the essence of Tolkien and ax whatever did not fit the 90's adventure template. For example, Bombadil. Bombadil is the creature so ancient, sanctified, and transcendent that he can hold the Ring in his hand and not be effected by it at all. Although he has just a few pages in the book, in many ways he is the most significant character in the world of MiddleEarth. He embodies Tolkien's belief that a truly holy person can preserve his peace even in the midst of the worst worldly chaos, and that man can achieve a state of soul where he is immune to even the worst evils of the world. Bombadil is, for Tolkien, a powerful theological statement, indeed, in Bombadil, Tolkien winks at the reader and whispers, "All the struggles presented in this novel are insignificant and irrelevant if you have in your soul the peace like Tom Bombadil has." And then, having said that, Tolkien resumes the narrative, as if to say, "but since most of us do not have that peace, let us get back to our struggles, and continue the narrative." Bombadil is like "a Shire whose peace CANNOT be perturbed." I have said in earlier posts that Tolkien exhalts domestic life above all, and the novel is all about "reestablishing peaceful domestic life in the Shire." Well Bombadil carries that theme one step further, because his domestic life is so edenic and so transcendent, that even if the world came crashing down around his and Goldberry's ears, and even if "a second darkness covered all the land," Bombadil and his helpmate would still remain safe and inviolate in their unperturbed domestic bliss. Tolkien holds up Bombadil as a model for the reader, and says, "Try to emulate this guy. If you can be like Tom, you are safe, no matter what worldly evils surround you." My point is that Bombadil is the essence of Tolkien; Bombadil is Tolkien's best advice to the reader. For Tolkien, the "Bombadilian Way of Life" is the key to weathering even the world's worst evils. However, since an enigmatic character like Bombadil does not fit into the outline of a 90's action flick, he had to be edited out. This is why the lotr films are not trying to be revolutionary, rather, they are taking the safe route. They are aiming for sales, and not trying to be profound. I do not necessarily blame them, although it does happen sometimes that aiming for sales actually backfires into blandness, while the more risky and revolutionary films make the big money. It would be quite ironic if dumbing down Tolkien actually produced a disappointing box office. Bombadil makes people think. To put Bombadil in the film would have been revolutionary, and would have given the audience a powerful dose of Tolkien. Editing out Tom leaves us with merely a sword and sorcery flick, similar to all other sword and sorcery flicks, though with better music and some technical polish. ***** Another point where the film had a chance to be revolutionary, but chose to take the safe route, was in the character of Arwen, who would have been a revolutionary heroine not seen in movies for 30 years, namely a domestic lass, once again highlighting Tolkien's glorification of domestic life. But no, the film chose to make her an action hero, like every heroine for the past three decades. I will no belabor the point, since it has been discussed often already. ***** So, I have to agree that the films are not revolutionary, nor are they trying to be revolutionary, and I believe PJ would agree as well, and claim that they deliberately cast it as a typical 90's action flick in order to do well at the box office, and that risks like Bombadil and Arwen would have been too risky, which, from a business standpoint, New Line was not willing to take. Who knows, perhaps one day we will see a director's cut on DVD where PJ can take all the risks he wants and put the essence of Tolkien back into the tale.
There And Back Again by Iggy Pop Barker	Nov 23rd, 2001 06:57:50 AM
The lyrics that are heard during The Breaking of the Fellowship is part of a poem called In Dreams and the final line is "When the seas and mountains fall, And we come, to end of days, In the dark I hear a call, Calling me there, I will go there, And back again." Beautiful. It also happens to end on There And Back Again which is the full title of the book, The Hobbit, or There and back again. It justs seems unfair that I have to wait another four weeks (and then two more years of waiting to get there and back again.)
Dufuytell, that's an interesting viewpoint by wilko185	Nov 23rd, 2001 10:09:47 AM
But I have to disagree on the significance of Tom. You said "...man can achieve a state of soul where he is immune to even the worst evils of the world.....even if 'a second darkness covered all the land,' Bombadil and his helpmate would still remain safe and inviolate in their unperturbed domestic bliss. Tolkien holds up Bombadil as a model for the reader" ____ I actually think this is a dangerous stance to take. Evil must be actively resisted and fought. Hiding in our own little lands leads ultimately to disaster. Retreating into a "monastic" existence is arguably a selfish attitude, in that in relies on others to "fight the good fight". The saints did not divorce themselves from the real world, they were actively involved in it. I see Bombadil not as a model Man, but as a spirit of nature (or Middle earth). He can be respected, perhaps be an inspiration, but not emulated. ____ You say "but since most of us do not have that peace, let us get back to our struggles...". NONE of us can have such peace, not in this world I'm afraid. And as Glorfindel said, "Could [Sauron] be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."
tracks 5-8 by Kizeesh	Nov 23rd, 2001 12:29:01 PM
that heavy pounding theme in tracks 5-8 is the signature theme of the Ringwraiths. That's my guess anyway as it only occurs during the tracks where they are in the story.
teehee,sorry morG by wilko185	Nov 23rd, 2001 12:42:55 PM
it's a good quote though. Glorfindel was a bit of a seer in fact. (He was the one who made the "not by the hand of man" prophecy about the fall of the Witch King.) So I'm taking him at his word ____ As I said b4,I'd rather have the barrow wight than TomB. Let's face it, someone like Robin Williams would have been cast, and it would have ended up being ridiculous.
On being revolutionary by europop	Nov 23rd, 2001 01:17:23 PM
If any film has a chance to be revolutionary, it's FOTR. I'm not saying it will, but I don't think you can rule it out either. Just look at the comments by the senior cast members. Both Chris Lee and John Rhys-Davies think these films are making cinematic history. I have never heard any actors make such bold suggestions before. Ian McKellan and Ian Holm are also hugely enthusiastic. I bet you when Chris Lee starts talking about Episode II he won't be nearly as enthusiastic. Then of course there are numerous Cannes footage reports saying what they saw was unlike anything they'd seen before. There are also the comments by a source on TORC who says that the films will break new ground, eg. when there is a sword fight, it will be unlike any sword fight you've seen before. There are many things that suggest to me the film could be revolutionary. The film combines absolutely stunning visuals with a story which we know is one of the best ever written. Never before will something that looks so impressive also have such a rich story. Also, a lot of the visuals have been colour corrected to give them a unique look. Then there is PJ's dynamic style, such as warped lenses. It will hopefully all combine to create something extremely new and fresh... possibly revolutionary. We'll soon find out.
an idyllic domestic lifestyle will protect them? by Wet Moose	Nov 23rd, 2001 02:22:41 PM
While there are many things to admire about Tom Bombadil it is inconsistant with the whole nature of the book to assume that those that live in peace will come off the best in the end. If that was the case, why did they ever leave the Shire to begin with? Wouldn't it's utopian setting provide some measure of protection against Mordor. No, the peaceable stay-at-home types were the first to suffer. Look at the ents, look at Lorien, look at the Druadan, look at the Rohirrim. Only because persons of character stood forth to actively combat evil did good win forth in the end. Without Eomer riding off to stop orcs, or Treebeard pulling down the walls of Isengard, or Gandalf doing his Gandalf stuff, Sauron would have won. And not to belabour the point (though it is probably too late) but Gandalf offered the fellowship a chance to return to an idyllic household in the beginning of "A Journey In The Dark." "We have no choice but to go on, or to return to Rivendell." Galadriel also offered each member of the fellowship sanctuary in Lorien before they left and yet they chose to proceed.
What I said... by Billy Talent	Nov 23rd, 2001 04:21:42 PM
Look, I'm not some thug proposing Lucas is God or anything like that. As I said before, personally I'm more excited about 'AotC', but I'm also prepared for the very worst where that is concerned, whereas I am pretty confident 'FotR' will be a good flick. However, current American movies ranging from 'Mulholland Dr.' to 'Waking Life' to 'The Man Who Wasn't There' to 'Monsters Inc.' and even, god help me, 'Memento' are considerably more concerned with expanding the cinematic language than 'LotR'. 'A.I.', whether you thought it succeeded, was a much more ambitious and original fantasy film. 'LotR' is one more action adventure blockbuster, though likely an excellent one. True, the source material is brilliant, but how much of that brilliance can be translated to screen? 'FotR' is an enormous book to compress into three hours of screen time. So many of the greatest films have been adapted from slight, mediocre novels (The Shining, The Godfather, Silence of the Lambs, etc.) On the other hand, a masterpiece such as 'LotR' has a lot more to lose in the translation. And I'm sorry, 'Heavenly Creatures' was very good, but Jackson is far from established as a great auteur. Three hours can be a very long time, and if he goes too poetic and arthouse, he's going to bore a lot of people. Don't forget, this thing has hamburgers and action figures to sell. Lucas is not god, and he certainly isn't Stanley Kubrick, but he is the principal architect of the contemporary blockbuster cinema - fast, loud and essentially juvenile, with merchandising and sequel potential. 'Star Wars' is better defined as fantasy than as science fiction. It is not as brilliant a film as '2001', but it is more accesible. 'Eyes Wide Shut' and 'A.I.' have unfortunately soured studios on big budget art films. 'Harry Potter', 'LotR', and 'AotC' are all playing the same game of Sink the Titanic. These are very expensive movies intended to reap unprecedented profits. It would be financially rash of Jackson to stray too far from Lucas' formula, and I doubt very much that he has.
RE: Dr Floyd by virkku	Nov 23rd, 2001 04:27:11 PM
You might very well be right. However, I'm hoping that the flick will more than just good popcorn fun. We'll see in four weeks...
Ho! Tom Bombadil! by DufusyteII	Nov 23rd, 2001 05:06:39 PM
See? This is the kind of thought provoking discussion that Bombadil produces. If he were in the film, the audience would say a big "What the Heck??" and spend hours discussing it coming out of the theater. "Who was that guy?" And then, they try to figure out who is was, and what he represents. In Bombadil, Tolkien's work gains its theological depth which sets it apart from other mere fantasy literature. ******* As for Glorfindel and as for those who say that "Tom would have been defeated," I humbly reply that Tom, even if he were slain, can never be defeated, and that is the whole point. "Do not fear those who can harm the body, but those who can take your soul" is a christian maxim that Tolkien firmly believed. Bombadil's soul is unperturbable, so even if they take his life, he remains unassailable in his inner peace, and that is the true victory that no one can take from him. Were the early christian martyrs defeated? or did they triumph? I suspect Tolkien would say they triumphed, and the fact that they lost their lives is irrelevant, other than that is provided an opportunity for them to manifest their inner strength. Often times this type of "passive victory" is the most powerful. If Galadriel and the hobbits and the ents etc had all allowed themselves to be martyred instead of taking up arms, don't you think that the power of their sacrifice would have broken the power of Sauron, just as the martyrs' sacrifice broke the will of Rome? Indeed, by taking up arms, aren't Galadriel et al flirting with the Dark Side themselves? Even Luke Skywalker must resist the temptation to "use your anger" and let it flow into violence. Conquering Sauron via arms yields a pyrrhic victory at best: somehow the violent struggle, like a sin, has sapped the faerie glow from MiddleEarth, and after the War the elves and hobbits must recede into obscurity and wither from the land, as though they were being send into exile and obscurity as a result of their violent sin. MiddleEarth becomes the haven of violent men as the War of the Ring ushers in the Age of Man. Although the War makes an interesting read, you can detect that Tolkien's heart is really not in the violence, and he basically punishes the elves and hobbits for having taken the violent route, by decreeing the end of their reign in MiddleEarth. Tolkien banishes them from the land, like God casting the sinful Adam and Eve out of the Garden. The world after the War of the Ring is like the fallen world in christian theology. The light of Eden has been destroyed. Now man must eat from the sweat of his brow all his days, as places like Lothlorien and the idyllic Shire vanish from the earth. The world after the War is really not a better world than before the War. Quite the contrary, a spell has been broken, the magic is gone from the land, and although the land is not "covered in a second darkness," nevertheless the land has "lost the light" in some very profound sense. Tolkien does not celebrate a rompous victory like the end of every Star Wars film. For Tolkien, the victory is very bittersweet, and something has been lost. Something very sacred has been lost by the War of the Ring; perhaps it is innocence that has been lost. Perhaps by taking up arms, the good guys have dipped a little too far into the arts and mentality of the Dark Side. Remember at the end when Frodo returns to the Shire he recommends that Saruman not be killed. THIS is the point. Frodo, unlike all the other characters, has learned Tolkien's lesson: Frodo has learned that active violence is no victory at all, but peace and goodness conquer all. Frodo chooses peace and not the sword, and what is Tolkien's response? Tolkien shows us that evil will take care of evil: the evil henchman kills Saruman. Does this not tell the reader that if Galadriel et al had not taken up arms, that eventually Sauron's reign would have destroyed itself from within, as rival factions of evil destroyed each other? ******* These are the themes that elevate Tolkien above other fantasy works. Alas, I fear that the films will glorify the bloodlust, and celebrate a Star Wars-esque celebratory victory at the end, with no heed to the bittersweetness of the novel, and no hint of Tolkien's suggestion that, ultimately, the War was all wrong: the War extinguished the light from the land more than Sauron ever could have.
RE: Dufy by virkku	Nov 23rd, 2001 05:44:05 PM
I do enjoy your rant, but I think that this is essentially YOUR interpretation of Tolkien's work and can't be claimed as the only right interpretation. Personally I'm only worried if the adaptation works on cinematic form and the cutting of Bombadil probably helps it. I'm worried about the overall coherence, and film is a very different medium than literature.
Having nothing to interpret by DufusyteII	Nov 23rd, 2001 07:03:54 PM
Yes, it is my interpretation, but the point is that if there is no Bombadil and no Scouring of the Shire, then there is nothing for anybody to interpret. I recommend: present the characters, present the scenes, and let everybody draw their own interpretations. There is nothing wrong with cutting the Barrow Wright, since he is just another Beastie that needs to be slain, and adds nothing to the depth of the work. However Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire are pivotal elements, yay verily, they are the essence of Tolkien. Interpret them how you will, they need to be present in the film for the viewer to have something to interpret. As it stands, the film is merely a string of baddies to be whooped, with no Tolkienesque profundity. It is "Lotr done Star Wars." But then again, I believe that is exactly what they were shooting for: "Lotr as Star Wars."
Tolkien crypto-pacifist? by pseudoplotinus	Nov 23rd, 2001 10:34:00 PM
I'm a bit confused as to how Dufusyte can interpret the efforts of the Hobbits, specifically Frodo and Sam as being in any way warlike in nature. If anything the quest of Sam and Frodo's is peculiarly pacifistic. Their desire is to destroy the cause of the conflict and avoid as much as possible being caught by any of the forces lurking around in Mordor. I agree that the events surrounding the battles of LOTR are secondary in importance to the quest, but this does not make them unimportant, nor does it diminish the reality that wars have to be fought in the interests of the good. What I think Tolkein is realizing in LOTR is that the greatest weapon that virtue has against evil, is evil itself. This is what allows the destruction of the ring and it is also what informs the entire tactic of the battles fought against Sauron, a decoy to distract the enemy from the West's real purposes. As any good tactician will tell you the decoy's are just as essential as the actions they are intended to conceal. It is uncear to me, and I suspect many others on this site as to how Sauron would be defeated if there wasn't a quest to destroy the ring, and the variety of battles fought to destract the Eye from this quest. I certainly doubt Tolkein would have thought his characters nearly as heroic as he did if he considered their efforts merely a case of militant bellicosity itruding itself where a good peace demonstration would have sufficed. Infact, I suspect he would have found such a notion repulsive. But then that's just my interpretation, I may be wrong.
Burger king Cups ( And yes i know this has nothing to Do with Ho by the son of John	Nov 23rd, 2001 10:37:46 PM
So last night I the was watching Something on TV last night and let me tell you that Thaksgiving was a big day for showing New movie tv spot day . First I saw The TV spot for the new Jim Carrey movie The Majestic and that was ok. it also seemed a little werid/creppy seeing Carrey doing drama besides The Truman Show. In my honest oppion i found the Truman Show both funny and dramatic at the same time . The Majestic to me seems like a very serous story that could either be thought enhencing or just a major peace of shit that you have to scrape from the bowl of Craptacular films that come on movie screens in America these past couple of years. So i would Give high marks to the Majestic. The Second tv spot i Saw was for Lord of the Rings Fellowship Of The Ring, and That was tight this tralier mainy foucused on the character of Scrider the Ranger and all i would have to say this would have to be the best of the traliers i have seen the First one and i would have to say seeing on the small screens i mean there it,s like a buffet table in America and they have the screen size in England in England(Corect me if am wrong Someone)It was just awesome to see the likeness of Frodo Arwen and Gandalf. I just can,t Stand Still for the For the 19th. It,s Goona be sweet. So on to the point of this post before i rant my head off. So after i had seen the ad about Scrider. There was anouther ad About these awesome goblets that were a buck 99 at Burger King. So i musterd up all my strenght and went down to the Burger king An as i walked in The Display was just awesome there were The a greenish boxs displaying the goblets And then there was a well made repilica made out of cardbord and it was of Biblos Hobbit hole and inside ot comtanined all of the figure that wiil be given in the kids meal. All i have to say it was sure sweet The Son of John ps Dont see Shallow Hal It sucked Donky Balls
Damn, by Sir Mordred	Nov 23rd, 2001 10:44:33 PM
I lost a long ass post cause I forgot to type in my password. Well, I'll try to re-create some of it. First, DufusyteII [that's an I and an I, roman numerals for 2, not LL] as many otehr tail-enders have pointed out, Tolkien is rarely interpreted in your direction, Hell, most see Tom as a weird part of the story. And you sound like morpheus, good job. ____ Oh, and whoever talked about revolutionary filmakers, I wouldn't consider 'Waking Life' revolutionary; it's good, but not revolutionary. What is left for a filmmaker to revolutionize? In other words, if you are one that complains about them, either 1) stop whining, or 2) get off your ass and do it yourself. It turns out you are a cynist, not a realist, no matter what you say. __ As for mechandise, I really don't think they've gone overboard, a movie of this size needs marketing so the film can be made. __ My other post was much, much longer.
Cutting stuff out of book adaptions and one-sided theological in by MPG	Nov 23rd, 2001 11:53:56 PM
Following Dufus' argumentation, LotR should never be made into a movie, because stuff has to be cut out, or else each movie would be 10 hours long. When stuff is cut out, it's always stuff that doesn't drive the story forward. Tom Bombadil doesn't drive the story forward. He's interesting in the book for some of the reasons Dufus described and a necessary enigma, as Tolkien said himself, but he's not necessary in the movie. Of course, Dufus' interpretation of the books is so heavy on the religious aspect that to put it mildy, I'd call it "one-sided" (and also quite biased... the martyrs' sacrifice broke the will of Rome? Er... ok... sure...), and a one-sided interpretation can never do a great book like the LOTR justice. In any case, Bombadil has to go, because he doesn't add to the story. This is about making a good movie, not about making a good book, and Bombadil's appearance would make the movie worse for a lot of people, because they would leave the theatre when a guy in yellow boots jumps around in the forest, singing "Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!" Yes, the truth is that Bombadil's role can not be easily explained in a movie. There are some things that simply don't work on film. I miss the Scouring of the Shire quite a bit more than Bombadil, but the reason for the change is obvious. Having a small climax in a movie after a large one would be bad screenwriting. And also, what should be cut out to get the 20-30 minutes of screentime necessary for the Scouring? Anyone who wants to keep the Scouring in, needs to propose what else to cut out. Perhaps the desctruction of the Ring? Dufus said that after Bombadil and the Scouring are gone, there is nothing left to interpret (I am not making that up, he actually said that), so we can cut out that scene. Of course, there is a lot to interpret in that scene, in fact a large part of the essence of Tolkien's writings is hidden in the scene where the Ring is destroyed, but Dufus obviously hasn't noticed it (there's nothing to interpret there, after all). Perhaps he should put his Bible aside for a while, then it might become more obvious. It's certainly not "theological depth" that Tolkien's work thrive on. Someone who can say something like "if there is no Bombadil and no Scouring of the Shire, then there is nothing for anybody to interpret" has really missed a HUGE part of Tolkien's spirit and the essence of his writings. I find that rather sad.
Rather harsh, I should say... by Sir Mordred	Nov 24th, 2001 12:24:42 AM
That was in a British accent. MPG, dufus may be a dufus, but he isn't a troll, maybe I'm outta line by stating the line, but I see it that we aren't so hostile to non-trolls. Either we a) have a civil discussion, or b) rag on them so much that they know it's a joke, i.e. Pallando. I could be wrong, but I figured that was our unwritten rule.
Don't get me wrong... by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 12:52:45 AM
I don't think that Dufus is a troll, though he has acted rather trollish already in some talkbacks. Also, again don't get me wrong, I am not saying that his interpretation of the book is totally incorrect, I am just saying that it's quite sad that anyone could believe it's the only one (as he clearly believes himself by using words like "nothing" and "anybody"). The only thing that I may see as harsh in my message was the part about putting the Bible aside for a while. However, religion is in it's worst form often connected with dogmatism, and Dufus' interpretation is an extremely dogmatic one, so my suggestion is a suggestion for being less dogmatic, not a suggestion for giving up religion altogether. That someone could be offended by Dufus' views does not cross your mind though, does it? I am quite offended when someone tells me that my favorite book does not have anything to offer besides "sword and sorcery fantasy" when the theological aspect is eliminated. I didn't say it lightly that I find it quite sad. If my response was harsh and hostile, then it was an expression of this feeling, and it was in my eyes a proper response to a dogmatic point of view. ------------------------------ -- Having said that, I _am_ on the same site where I was recently called a "retard" or a "psycho" for stating my opinions? This is an AICN talkback, isn't it? Sir Mordred, I didn't see you (or anyone else for that matter) say anything about being on any of these instances (or when other people were subjected to name-calling for no particular reason), and I also guess that you don't realize that Dufus' tirades are just a part of an ongoing battle against windmills.
MPG- that was not an attack by Sir Mordred	Nov 24th, 2001 01:55:48 AM
It was advice to a fellwo tail-ender, I consider you one of us, us including DufusyteII. And i believe morG had an emphatic defense of you when they did that, and if I didn't defend you, it was because I thought morG had done a good job. And I guess i never thought he could be offensive, because I'm rarely offended, I only knew your post was because it made me laugh. And I don't think I chastiesed you, but I might have.
on the subject of Tolkien's views of extreme pacifsm by Wet Moose	Nov 24th, 2001 02:23:45 AM
"It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two....And those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, When the Dark Lord gathers armies?" -Eowen "'No!' said Merry. 'It's no good 'getting under cover'. That's just what people have been doing, and just what these ruffians like....No, we have got to do something at once.' 'Do what?' said Pippin. 'Raise the Shire!' said Merry. I'm not saying that dying for your beliefs is always a bad thing. "Nor is it always evil to fall in battle." - Eowen. But Tolkien clearly wanted people to stad up for themselves instead of meekly being wiped out. I agree, however, that "The Scouring of the Shire" should be a part of the movie.
I always understood that the Scouring was going to be a part of by Nordling	Nov 24th, 2001 08:15:39 AM
At least, that is what I understood. I'll live if it's not there, but the Scouring has some of my favorite scenes in all of LOTR. Hope it's still there. Can anyone confirm?
Re: Mordred by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 10:36:38 AM
I wasn't offended, Mordred, you did have a point after all. I'm just usually quite outraged when I encounter people who tell me that a religious interpretation is needed to enjoy any part of my life - and the LotR (as geeky as that may sound now) is a part of my life. And I can enjoy it without cross-referencing to the Bible. ;) So I'm sorry if in that outrage I also seemed to be offended by your "warning". ------------------------------ -- Having said that, I don't think that we should go on discussing changes to the book in the movie without having a look at this excellent interview with Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens: "http://www2.tolkienonline.com /docs/5337.html" In my opinion, they have both understood the essence of Tolkien's writings quite well: "It
General Custer / BK toys by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 03:35:29 PM
General Custer, just wondering, who was calling Dufus names? Actually, I found this to be the most civilized talkback I have ever seen on AICN in something like 3 years. In fact, there are less strong opinions than even on the Tolkien Usenet newsgroups, which are usually the best place to go for civilized discussions. However, whenever there are strong and extreme opinions on one side, strong counter-arguments can be expected. That makes the tone of this talkback even more surprising. Also, interesting posters have left AICN? There are probably more interesting posters here than ever before, at least as far as I can remember. ------------------------------ -- In any case, I couldn't resist buying some of the BK merchandising. I was surprised, the glass goblets are actually quite good (the light-up thingy is somewhat cheesy but can be left out). I also got some of the figures and found them to be a bit better than usual McD/BK toys (and they were $0.99 each, so I figured what the heck). While I bought them basically to get some laughs out them (Elrond has a funny speech impediment), youngsters may actually enjoy them quite a bit.
Another article about adapting the book by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 04:44:45 PM
Aside from the interview with Boyens/Walsh that I posted above, here's another one with Brian Sibley, someone who also understands _very_ well which problems are involved in adapting any book into a screenplay. The address: "http://www.visimag.com/xpose/ x62display_f.htm" Just one quote: "They could just have gone for the adventure, for sweeping vistas of marching armies, and those are going to be there in the film, but I believe Peter Jackson has really captured the core of the story, its heart and emotions. But there's going to be a lot of criticism by purists, because people find it very hard to accept that in moving to a new medium, you have to do it differently."
Oooops... sorry. by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 05:55:03 PM
I hadn't really noticed the "Dufus" thing. I had seen it pop up as a short version of Dufusyte's name in several talkbacks, so I "recycled" it, as I assumed it was just being used as friendly nickname. My apologies to Dufusyte if the usage of the name "Dufus" is offensive to him. I may be a hothead at (hopefully fairly infrequent) times, but name-calling is not my style.
FOTR screening reactions? by wilko185	Nov 24th, 2001 06:57:13 PM
Don't know if these are real, obviously, but some 2nd-hand reactions from "media screenings" have apparently surfaced. No real information is given, but general opinions are it's intense. As you'd expect. ____ _____ "All he would say was that as a Star Wars fan, he felt it eclipsed anything he had seen before. As a film fanatic, he said it was the most spectacular movie he had ever experienced. he said time and again he felt his eyes well up with emotion ... and this guys a bit of a hard nut." _____ ______ "saw it. beats harry by a long shot, better acting, more engaging world. but i'm still reeling. it's one of the most visually imaginitive films i've ever seen, but the violence and the overarching darkness is ultimatly numbing." links: www.imladris.net/forums/showth read.php?s=&threadid=6888 and www2.tolkienonline.com/thewhit ecouncil/messageview.cfm?start =0&catid=13&threadid=29597
Dufusyte does have a lot to say... by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 07:27:40 PM
...that's for sure. I don't even disagree with his interpretation, mind you, just with the way how he sells it as the exclusive interpretation of the books. ------------------------------ -- Regarding these "reviews" that are coming in now: If they are for real, it's the best thing we heard ever since New Line committed to making 3 movies. The funny thing is that on these message boards, people are now getting scared that the movies are going to be _too_ dark. Remember how many people complained about TPM, that it was too "light"? I think we should be happy if we get a dark movie. Look at the Matrix. It's a great movie not only because it revolutionized special effects for action movies, but also because it's dark, edgy, simply _different_. I have said before that LotR _may_ be the first big budget independent movie project (though I realize, it's a bit of a contradiction), and if that's what it turns out to be, we can all be happy, perhaps even the purists.
Re: A too-dark LOTR by pseudoplotinus	Nov 24th, 2001 08:40:26 PM
MPG, it did cross my mind after hearing the Shore score that Jackson's treatment may venture pretty far in the tragedy realm. This isn't a problem in itself if we are talking about quality, but as it concerns watchability, well even the Greeks prefaced their productions of tragedies with a few slap stick Satyre's, and Shakespeare did have Rosencrantz and Guildenstern to lighten up Hamlet (even if they got the rope in the end). All this to say that Jackson's skill will be required in offsetting the extremely melancholy elements of LOTR with some light moments. I was heartened to see in Sibley's book on the Movie an image or two suggesting that Jackson has indeed included some lighter moments in the film.One other thought. I've already posted my enthusiastic response to Shore's LOTR score. I am especially pleased that he decided to find a different style of music when dealing with different places of the novel. I am left wondering what Shore has in mind for the Gondorian and Rohan sequences that will dominate the next two movies. My hunch is that he will use more of the horns in a sort of Wagnerian style. There are hints of this in the present score (especially the Fellowship theme) but they are rather abbreviated.
Pax Dufusitorum by DufusyteII	Nov 24th, 2001 09:28:47 PM
Tolkien said he imagined the Gondorians as analogous to the Egyptians. This can be seen, among other things, in their emphasis on the cult of the dead and elaborate tombs, as well as in the various works of monumental statuary they erected here and there. The two enormous statues on the Anduin were of Gondorian origin, no? And didn't the Kings of Gondor wear some type of double crown, like the Egyptians whose crown bore the insignia of both the Northern and Southern Kingdom (Upper and Lower Nile). So, maybe Shore can work in some Egyptian instruments and/or musical themes into the Gondorian pieces. Perhaps a primitive lyre, or whatever the ancient egyptians made music with. ***** That review sounds quite promising. Dark is good, and the best films are always melancholy. Tradegies are the best for repeat viewing, because seeing the film again brings the character(s) alive for a brief while until they die at the end of the film. This is why teenage girls kept going to see Titanic, so they could bring Jack back to life for three hours, before he inevitably died at the end of the film each time. If we get to see Arwen die at the end, then that will give us reason to see the film again, so we can give her life again for a brief while. Seems like she and Aragorn are the only good guys to die though. What do you think, should PJ kill off all the Hobbits at the end in a surprise twist to increase repeat viewership? heh. ***** Hey everybody, be nice to the Dufusyte!! Dufusyte means no harm! It is sometimes necessary to state things exaggeratedly in terms of "black and white" in order to make a clear and unmistakeable point in these Talkbacks. You have to use hyperbole just to be heard. If you present things in a subtle and balanced way, no one would catch your drift, hence the need for extremism in presentation.
Pax... well, fine with me... by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 09:44:36 PM
"If you present things in a subtle and balanced way, no one would catch your drift, hence the need for extremism in presentation." Dufus, just attach that disclaimer to your messages from now on, and I won't be complainin' again. Just kidding, of course. ;) Heck I even miss the real trolls like Mercier sometimes. ;)
Gondor and Egypt by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 09:59:40 PM
By the way, I always imagined the Gondorians as being equivalent to ancient Rome (though Egypt matches as well in some ways). Rome was split up at some point as well, and one half went down the drain after a while (attention: fast forward history here) while the other half survived for quite some time. Very similar to Gondor. :)
nice one by Tarin	Nov 24th, 2001 10:14:04 PM
Well said, morGoth, well said. It's a real shame that so many excellent posters have been driven away, particularly Vanyar, who was prominent on this site when I first started coming here a little over two years ago. He was one of about half a dozen posters who had something to say that was worth listening to. Oh well... To end on a happier note, I can now relax, as I have got me a ticket for the 19th. I think I've now reached stage 8!!!!!!!!!
About those "reviews" (POSSIBLE SPOILERS) by wilko185	Nov 24th, 2001 10:47:59 PM
The guy who provided the first quote also said "A friend in the Odeon chain in the UK says they have been emailed from Odeon central booking that Fellowship has been reclassified as a PG, but with a strong warning to parents on content...... an invited audience of 16 marketing and regional managers had been invited to London a week past Friday to see a new film ... they weren't told what ... and they saw Fellowship. He says they were all overawed by it" _____ If you follow the second link I posted, there are more comments, from a mysterious source. He says "all i can say once again is i don't blame most of you for your skepticism. i can state w/ 100\% conviction that there has been at least one u.s. screening (for purposes i can't reveal)" Another longtime poster at the site says he has "verified" the guy is who says he is. Some comments from the 2 people he knows who saw FOTR (one was less impressed than the other): "many light moments from the book are largely gone, and the respites from danger (riveldell, lothlerian), while beautifully rendered, are fleeting. there is a constant sense of foreboding, and the music is operatic, never letting you forget it. the violence mentioned is very intense & repetitive." ___ "he/she has a 13 yr old, and specifically mentioned that NO WAY will they be seeing the film." _____ "the sheer number of fight scenes was unecessary- swordfight after swordfight to the point of boredom. the council of elrond was described as surprisingly argumentive. the gandalf-saruman confrontation degrades into an embarassing martial arts-type fight. he also mentioned pj being very heavy handed at times- gandalf bumping his head at bilbo's house, for instance. funny though, he said he definately wanted to see it again! oh, and the character of aragorn has been miscast, being more of a pretty boy than a gritty traveller" _____ These comments actually don't sound bad to me. FOTR should be grim, there has to be a lot of sword-fighting in the plot. More disturbingly (to me) "there is little or no elven language, poetry or singing in the film." From what I've read this sounds incorrect, and makes me think either (A) these comments are not genuine (Fellowship should contain more Elvish than the next 2 movies, shouldn't it?), (B) the person wasn't paying too much attention, or (C) they were expecting every snippet of Quenya and every poem to be in, and was disappointed. So I'm not putting too much faith in these opinions. (The comment that many light moments are excised also makes me suspicious. I thought PJ was adding humorous bits to the story. Unless "light moments" means things like the meals with Gildor and Farmer Maggot, the extended sojourn in Lorien etc.) ___ If either "review" is genuine, it seems like FOTR got a big serious treatment, aimed at grownups. Sounds hopeful to me.
Believability of the reviews by MPG	Nov 24th, 2001 11:24:40 PM
Well, what makes these reviews believable to me is that suddenly, two sets of reviews pop up at the same time on different sites. There are three explanations: 1) They were posted by the same guy (but I think the styles of the postings are too different). 2) It's a coincidence (not impossible). 3) The reviews are for real, and both posters may actually even get their news from people who attended the same screening. I also heard there weren't going to be any early press screenings, but I guess it's not impossible that representatives of the distributors or theatre chains would get to see the movie at some point before the premiere. I do tend towards 3, especially since the reviews contained good and bad points - at least this guy is not a plant who is just trying to push the movie. Of course, an argument against the believability of the reviews is that there again wasn't really any news (similar to the review Harry posted a while ago), and some things may seem a little odd - like the thing about having too many fight scenes. Sure, there is quite a lot of action in FotR if you condense it down (Last Alliance flashbacks, Weathertop, Moria, Amon Hen), but I can't see how these scenes would really dominate the movie. The Moria footage shown in Cannes was supposedly 20 minutes long and rather complete (from an editing point of view). I'd assume that it's the longest "fight scene", and a lot of these 20 minutes probably consisted of walking around in Moria, running away from Orcs, etc. In my eyes, the comment about "fight scene after fight scene" diminishes the credibility of the review to some extent. Of course, to someone who has actually read the FotR, it may seem like there's too much action, because in the book, especially in the first half, there isn't really _that_ much action. But well, let's see where this goes from here. I'm sure that very soon, we will see more reviews coming in, certainly more credible ones.
Again with the reviews by wilko185	Nov 24th, 2001 11:38:02 PM
According to the tolkienonline thread, the source was "media", whatever that means (he/she denied that the screening was the ratings board one. Those guys never seem to spill any information. Must be in their contracts?). I hope I'm not spreading misinformation, and I am a bit dubious about all these reviews. I don't really want to read any in-depth criticism until I've seen the film, but I just can't help looking at these (hopefully non-specific) little comments on the film.
Unfortunately right again :( by DufusyteII	Nov 24th, 2001 11:48:40 PM
The reviewer said: "...oh, and the character of aragorn has been miscast..." Woohoo, elanor, be sure to chalk another one up for Dufusyte. I called this one a year ago. Viggo is the wrong man in a good role; meanwhile, Liv is a good actress in a warped role (Jarwen). There ya have it, folks. If the reviewer thought Viggo was to much of a pretty boy, what would she have thought of Townsend? It seems that in an attempt to highlight the romance factor, Aragorn has been made into primarily a loverboy. Oh no, we need a King, not a Prince Charming!
good sir mordred by kojiro	Nov 25th, 2001 01:16:37 AM
Have the Cannot Post Message blues got you down? Screaming and ripping out what little hair you have left? Feel like taking a trusty ol' hammer to that darn computer? Then follow these three simple steps every time you post! Left click at the top of the message! Drag to the bottom! Right click and Copy! Well, three-and-a-half steps I guess. Whatever. OK, happy smiling time over now. Fucking mouth is all cramped up...
Dufus by Sir Mordred	Nov 25th, 2001 04:11:20 AM
'Tis only a friendly abbreviation, when used by a tail-ender, but occasionally you'll see a troll, or other useless person, using it and then it's "meant" as an insult, but I think dusufyteII shrugs it off like any self-respecting geek would do, Hell he chose the name. ____ No.... no MPG... no... Matrix is not... I repeat not.... great... not even good... entertaining... not good. ____ morG, I like Jay and Silent Bob, so shut the fuck up, BITCH. ___ Dufus, we already heard this Egyptian/Gondorian speech from morpheus, if you're going to immitate him, don't settle for copying and pasting posts from a year ago- we were all there. ____ In the book, they are the only two good guys to die, save Boromir, well the only two we see die [Appendix]. We hear Pippin, Sam, and Merry live great lives, but we only see Aragorn and Arwen die; we don't even know what happens to Faramir and Eowyn, or Eomer. ____ Dufus, she said miscast- maybe she wanted a loverboy, her opinion is not always yours. If it's her real opinion at all. I stand firm that the cast is near perfect [IMHO headed by (by headed I mean the most perfect) Viggo, Orlando, Ian McKellen, Blanchett, and Billy Boyd.] For lack of a better way of expressing this; these are the people I would cast- too bad they'll be past the right age when my turn at LotR comes around. ___ And Custer, i won't respond to your comments because I don't think you have anything worthwhile to say.
trollers... by virkku	Nov 25th, 2001 07:25:41 AM
Personally I think it's total BULLSHIT to start calling people who disagree with you as "trollers". General Cluster has always been very polite and had backed up his arguments. Dufy does the same thing, even if I disagree with him all the time. The reason why I'm not usually participating talkbacks as a "tailender" is the fact that the tailenders agree with each other all the time. Where is the fun in that? These talkbacks would be worthless and boring without INTELLIGENT, POLITE and CALM arguments between the talkbackers.
LOTR has lost the B.O game... by virkku	Nov 25th, 2001 07:39:27 AM
...Against Harry Potter. HP is gonna make around 65-70 million again this weekend and it's going to go well north of 400 million. I'm pretty amazed by it's performance. Who knows, maybe LOTR will make just us much, but I kind of doubt it.
LOTR has lost the B.O game... by virkku	Nov 25th, 2001 07:40:16 AM
...Against Harry Potter. HP is gonna make around 65-70 million again this weekend and it's going to go well north of 400 million. I'm pretty amazed by it's performance. Who knows, maybe LOTR will make just us much, but I kind of doubt it.
Navel-gazing... by MPG	Nov 25th, 2001 03:30:35 PM
...perhaps, but I neither watch Oprah, nor am I an American (unless it counts that I happen to live in the US). Funny, Mercier once mis-guessed that I am a Brit - I see a pattern here. But if my postings can cure insomnia, at least they are doing something good. In fact, if they put Happyhappyjoyjoy to sleep, I may even gain some gratitude from other talkbackers here. :)
The Best Film Soundtrack Since Sir George Martin's Side B of by Pallando Blue	Nov 25th, 2001 04:10:18 PM
...Although I must say, some of the Moria material is quite derivative of "March of the Meanies." I may just have to bring a Discman in and plug in that track on repeat during that sequence. Ah, but such a missed opportunity--what the Fab Four and their Knighted producer could have wrought! (>ahem
Har! Such silliness-- "provoking morGoth" is like "watering the by Pallando Blue	Nov 25th, 2001 05:15:55 PM
Heh heh ;-) Seriously, it's tedious enough when the Talkbacks devolve into meta-Talkbacks, i.e., TBs about Ting-B (and yup, I contribute to that often enough--sorry); it's positively excruciating when y'all turn it into a meta-meta-Talkback. I don't want to Talkback about Talking back about Talkbacks. ....Well actually, I just wanted to post the very first meta-meta-meta-TB comment. :) And for the record, if your navel was even HALF as attractive as mine, you'd find it difficult diverting your gaze from its sumptuous, hairy beauty as well. * News Flash! "Lord of the Rings" only makes runner-up for this month's Oprah Book Club! "Not enough strong female characters," remarks media mogul Winfrey, "but there's hope for the novelization of the movies." I love her! Did anyone tape today's show? ;-) * elanor, the day has finally arrived: after considerable mulling and dilly-dallying I am this very day delving head-first into the HOME mumblings. Gonna get through as many of em as possible (feeling that oh-so-familiar can't-stop-typing feeling comin on... oh dear), and I'll put them up on this TB when I'm through. BUT: I'm going to wait until this TB either falls off the "Cool News" front page--thereby officially becoming a Tail End--or is supplanted by a new LOTR TB for the masses. I don't wanna dump into the middle of other peoples' discussions and back-and-forths a whole big pile of posting that's only of mild interest, and to just a few of us. So keep yer peepers peeled here. * Don't forget to tape TPM on FOX tonight, y'all! Supposedly there's to be one or more excellent FOTR spot(s)/special(s)/sumthin(s) snuck in there somewhere before/after/throughout the movie. Don't matter if you either despise TPM or (like me) already have the DVD--tape it tonight to fast forward to the "good parts"! ;) And my TV guide has "Quest for the Ring" scheduled for 8:00 Thursday! Luvvin it! Now have to find out about those Discovery Channel shows mentioned on TORN... hope they ain't Far North Exclusives... * Really, wilko, yer pushin my limits. More "reviews"! (But man they all said what I wanted 'em too--mercy buckets for the links, monsewer.) I mean it, as soon as full-length, detailed reviews of FOTR start showing up, I'm off the internet until I've seen the film myself. Leaving my newspapers to rot on the lawn with the wet leaves. Until I see it for myself, not reading a word. ...In fact, for those of you who'll be paying attention... If Harry pulls off the coup of all sneak preview coups at BNAT-3 December 8th, and yet we attendees are forbidden to reveal such glorious news... you'll know what we saw if I show up at the inevitable post-London-premiere review TBs... Denying everything, of course. ;~)
pushing Pallando's limits by wilko185	Nov 25th, 2001 06:44:46 PM
I know what you mean, and I promise not to post any genuine spoilers, should I find any. F'rinstnce, I guess I won't post the url of the website offering a bootleg FOTR ;). [It doesn't sound like a scam at all- quote: "Because the big risk I take I don
for elanor by DufusyteII	Nov 25th, 2001 09:37:26 PM
elanor, please excuse me for missing your questions. "What kind of Arwen would I like?" A: the one in the book, perhaps more developed, but in keeping with her character. Second question: "Shouldn't PJ do an extremist presentation of Tolkien using Talkback-hyperbole?" A: no. Did I miss any other questions? Meanwhile, are you making progress on your study for your spidery part? I am counting on you!! ***** elanor you have to give me two points!! I have been saying all along that, among the characters, Arwen has been misconstrued, and Aragorn has been miscast. Lo, the first reviews have stated, "Liv's character does not jive," and "Aragorn was miscast." Two points!! You cannot begrudge me that. It does not make me happy to be right about this though. At least I get the bittersweet consolation of gloating; you must grant me that. ***** Does anybody think that PJ is doing "lotr as a horror movie"? One of the trailers was definitely a horror movie trailer. The reviewer's comment that the film is very horrific raises the suspicion. PJ has done the Horror genre before, so maybe he feels especially comfortable with the dynamics of a horror-movie-esque interpretation. It should be interesting. Instead of "lotr as Star Wars," maybe we will get "lotr as Alien."
Pallando, that's real? by Bedivere	Nov 25th, 2001 09:50:21 PM
Way to go custer, virkku, I thought those were all troller jokes, but maybe I'm wrong. ___ wilko- custer is British? why would he go by custer? ___ elanor, what were you spoiling, I ddin't understand. And Dufy, I really don't care if LOTR is a piece of shit anymore, I just want to see it and get it over with.
eh, you didn't miss anything, elanor. by Pallando Blue	Nov 25th, 2001 10:35:00 PM
Turns out Harry's intelligence on this matter was less than accurate (I'm positive it was this site that said TPM spots...). The commercial you caught the tail-end of was another 30-second-er, no new footage even. Bits from others we've caught on the Net. Though having it on the TV screen is a nice change! Now that my "Angel" tape has worn to almost snow and white noise. :) There was one other commercial later for the Thursday special--which was maybe 15 seconds, I swear. But looks like you grabbed that one. * Bedivere, is what real? Ya got ME, bub. ;) * wilko, sir, in a show of gratitude, appreciation, and Tailend camaraderie: >ahem
Let the games begin! by BG	Nov 25th, 2001 10:52:07 PM
On Saturday morning I wandered down to my local cinema and purchased six tickets to 'The Fellowship of the Ring'. So let the competition begin! Who will purchase the most tickets before the movie actually opens and win the prestigious Gollum Memorial Trophy for having the most faith in PJ's efforts. The only rule is that you can only count tickets purchased for your own personal use (no buying 100 tickets then re-selling them to friends and family). So the mark has been set at 6 (a pathetic and embarrassing number for a Geek of my standing). Also, I was wondering the other day, while I was idly flipping through the Official Movie Guide with the movie sound track playing in the background and a replica One Ring on it's chain around my neck, how much crap ... um ... I mean quality merchandising products we've collectively purchased. I'm ashamed to admit that I actually bought a plastic toy Sting the other day. It glows blue and makes a 'clang' sound when you hit things with it. Talk about milking the giant (cash) cow! I think I've become New Line's bitch. I feel so used. But I can't help myself. Oh, the humanity!
The world of ME is supposed to be archaic and strange by morpheus	Nov 25th, 2001 11:51:52 PM
That is why we have the hobbits as a simplistic view to the world of M-E.If Tolkien set the world of ME in a pseudomedieval kulcha,we wouln'tneed any intro hobbit POV towartds ME.Anyrevoluionary LOTR pic that treats the world of LOTR as historical,should have cotumes and music of thir own.The stndard issue costume would be leggings,loinclothes,tunic,clo aks etc.Only in the spiritually pure lves and dwrvs do we have simple white toga like costumes.Which can be arranged in many ways,frm the siddhu's to the Romans.Music,especialy those of classical Elvish languges,shouldal always the kinda'tribal yodel' that the primitive folks use when they perform solemn holy ceremonies.Think of the Native American and Borneo native archaic languages(their version of the Latin and the Elvish language)when they're cfonjuring spellls or healing people and you'd have the mode in which the Elvish langagen must hve been sung in theSilmarillion.By the third age,theNorthmen's songs(and culture) musta evolved into a still tribal type with saome slightly Celtic/Norse influnece.Since the third age would giveway to those Celtic/Norse legendry times described in the epics.I've always pictured the cultures of those great ME empires as Mayan and Aztec.Maybe some Aztec music with Egyptian influences for Gondorians.Actually PJ SHOULD use the songs and poems from the books.,Ironically,'I Desire' constitues the first sin.
Hey, Pallando, screw you by wilko185	Nov 26th, 2001 12:24:08 AM
ya big homo! Mm, yeah, that did feel good :). Btw, I for one would be interested in your rection to HoME, especially vols 1-3. Hope you've read Unfinished Tales, and know what to expect (dual bookmark action). ___ ___ Bedivere, didn't Custer say he was British b4? Are there rules about username nationalities (if so, are you a Brit, Sir B?) ____ ____Saw TPM today for the first time (partly on the off-chance of a new Rings commercial) .... some cool sequences, but jebus, what a mess. I no longer want PJ to direct a Silmarillion prequel trilogy in 25 years time (Attack of the Gnomes? :) ____ _____ Elanor, these links to mpg ads still seem to work (for me anyway): http://homepage.mac.com/smeago l1/.Movies/aragorn.mpg http://homepage.mac.com/smeago l1/.Movies/fellowship.mpg
The Oprah quotes, ninnyhammer by Bedivere	Nov 26th, 2001 02:00:29 AM
Thanks for asking wilko- I'm Texan. Dufy, as for your opinion that Viggo is miscast, I don't know why you'd say that. My opinion, from the first time I heard, he was perfect. But of course, if I don't see this in teh movie, I'll be the first to say it. I just don't see it happening; he's perfectly villainous for FotR, and I somehow know he's going to be noble enough in RotK. ___ morph, what exactly is Aztec music, seems to me that would be a massive research project in itself.
wilko by Wet Moose	Nov 26th, 2001 01:02:13 PM
I, also, cannot get those dastardly Windows media links to work for me. Elanor, it is not just you. Apparantly I am not permitted to view this site as I don't have the authorization. I am curious as to whether this is the problem faced by other rabid fans and if so, to let me know. Also, I am desirous of knowing exactly what sort of dark blood initiation wilko had to go through to get access to this site. Let me know. Did it hurt? Was it excruiatingly painful? I don't care! I must get a trailer fix! DAMN YOU Windows Media! From Hell's heart I stab at thee! urg... ack...(cough)...hum.... sorry. Ummmm.................bye.
nothing to it by wilko185	Nov 26th, 2001 02:12:19 PM
just drink the blood of a unicorn, swear to serve the dark master, and.... actually I don't know what the problem is. I can't remember where I got those 2 links from (I just found them still in my download manager), but they still work for me. Maybe you're behind a nasty firewall or a proxy (eg at work)? ___ [If you can only use WMP then I guess the links to the .mov files Harry hid behind the full stops in the above story are useless as well.... ]
Gen. Custer ... by BG	Nov 26th, 2001 05:00:48 PM
... the opposite of British ... that would make you ... French! ;-)
Bakshi review by Wet Moose	Nov 26th, 2001 06:34:59 PM
If General Custer or anyone else who fondly (or not) remembers Bakshi's version of TLOTR and would like to hear a scathing and rather funny review of this flick, go to http://flyingmoose.org/tolksar c/bakshi/bakshi.htm the bits about the Balrog I find especially entertaining
Congrats elanor, not jealous...oh no, not at all by wilko185	Nov 26th, 2001 06:41:52 PM
honest I'm not. To show I'm not bitter here's another trailer link which I seemed to miss in my bookmarks b4: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/ tegilbor/lst?.dir=/My+Document s/Trailers Apparently 4 trailers here. I haven't dl-ed any, as it's painfully slow. I seem to recall this is actually that MPG guy's personal webspace, and it's probably stuff grabbed off the TV. As they're .zips I'm not sure if they contain .mpgs or not (but what else would MPG use? :). I did catch the Arwen one yesterday on TV, and her face did look kinda strange, as I think someone alluded to earlier (elongated perhaps, with big anime-esque eyes). Anyhoo, look forward to your report elanor, but don't be too specific, eh? From the 10th onwards, gonna have to be very selective about what lotr articles I read, methinks.... ____ ____ Miami, ouch. I was going to suggest you get dressed up as Gandalf, and thus be discharged from jury duty by reason of insanity. But that probably won't fly. A few years back a high-profile case (about the Clinton-whitewater affair) featured a jury member who wore a Star Trek uniform throughout the entire case ....only in America
oh yeah, morG, same to you, with nobs on :-P by wilko185	Nov 26th, 2001 06:54:23 PM
Moose, I was going to mention that Tolkien Sarcasm page too, but with a warning- don't read the review before seeing the film, you'll never ebe able to take it seriously.
well...yeah I s'pose by Wet Moose	Nov 26th, 2001 07:50:01 PM
If you wanted to watch the Bakshi movie as a serious piece of dramatic film you should probably avoid the Tolkien Sarcasm page........................bu t honestly! some parts of that movie are just sad. It's the kind of movie you actually watch for its flaws, kinda like MST3k. Not that it doesn't have a few glimmers of good bits, mind you, but I can't help laughing at some of the more ludicrious parts. Watch this movie drunk.
"Watch this movie drunk." by wilko185	Nov 26th, 2001 09:26:01 PM
I think it says that on the video-box.
Um.... Phlegm? by Sir Mordred	Nov 26th, 2001 09:46:55 PM
They worked for me... The Windows Media sites I mean. wilko- I hope my uni has an impressive firewall, so I don't think that's it. _____ I enjoyed Bashki, which is why I hope what I just d/led is a good version of it.
elanor by Sir Mordred	Nov 27th, 2001 05:39:19 AM
when you post your review- say it's a reviewbefore we read it, and save it, cause I know I won't read it until I see it- and I may go as far as to not go to AICN for those 9 days. But save it cause we'll all want to read it later. That's jsut soem friendly advice, and by no means a warning.
I haven't seen Bakshi drunk by wilko185	Nov 27th, 2001 03:38:57 PM
but I saw it when I was about 12 years old, which amounts to the same thing. I was overawed by some of the fx on the big screen, but even then I knew it wasn't doing the book justice. No real desire to go back to it now, apart from its kitsch value. --- Irish eh, custer? Should've known from your Wildean style ;). That marketing ploy sounds really despicable btw. Hey ho, new film version soon, new lotr TB up now....
PB Rambles on HOME (I) Quick Preface, or by Pallando Blue	Dec 13th, 2001 12:23:51 AM
If you didn
PB Rambles on HOME (II) An Exhaustive Theft From Christopher T. by Pallando Blue	Dec 13th, 2001 12:26:50 AM
It
PB Rambles on HOME (III) About HOME and How to Read by Pallando Blue	Dec 13th, 2001 12:31:12 AM
Okay, I can admit it. At this point I
PB Rambles on HOME (IV) About HOME and How to Read by Pallando Blue	Dec 13th, 2001 12:33:56 AM
[Caution: The following has not been proofread] What this all means is that CT did everything he could to allow the casual reader to merely read
But the foofraw is the best part!!! by JD1866	Dec 14th, 2001 12:09:04 AM
Ahh, it's PB to the rescue! Just when I desperately needed a distraction from this endless wait for the 19th (will that day NEVER get here???). Thank you, dear sir. Your quite correct on the applicability of those 'unattainable vistas' in regards to the movie. Indeed, that has been one of my concerns for the film. Would we see a tease here (part of the tale of Luthien) or brief snippet there (A plea to Elbereth)? These brief glimpses all enrich and add depth to the great tapestry that is LotR. That said, I'm not sure how much can be included without comepletly befuddling the unread LotR novice, but I would like to see a few. **On the homefront - my husband finished The Hobbit last month and is working his way through FotR. He just finished A Journey in the Dark (ha! just wait till he finishes the next chapter). Ahh, the questions he has after almost every reading session! For instance "Just who is this Elrond and why shouldn't Bilbo make up a song about Earendil in his house?" I have begun to quote Gandalf, "If I were to tell you all that tale, we should still be sitting here when Spring had passed into Winter." Unfortunately, all the commercials on tv are also proving to be a hindrance. I keep hearing "They don't travel by boats!" and "Where does this Galadriel come into the story?" Again, I fall back on quotes (this time it's moms all over the world) "You'll see" and "Just wait and have patience." Hmmm, maybe I need to start taking my own advice?
There is one passage in LOTR that always makes me think of Chris by wilko185	Dec 15th, 2001 08:01:48 PM
Pallando, I'm really looking forward to hearing what you thnk of HoME. I've never known anyone in "real life" who's read it (I can barely persuade anyone to read LOTR). Anyway, having read a lot of HoME myself, and knowing how indebted we are to C.T. for giving us The Silmarillion, this quote always brings the work of C.T. after his father's death to my mind (sorry if I'm pre-empting your own use of this): " For some time they sat in silence; and then Sam looking round at the room and the shadows flickering on the walls, said softly: 'I don't think, Mr. Frodo, that he's done much writing while we've been away. He won't ever write our story now.' At that Bilbo opened an eye, almost as if he had heard. Then he roused himself. 'You see, I am getting so sleepy,' he said. 'And when I have time to write, I only really like writing poetry. I wonder, Frodo my dear fellow, if you would very much mind tidying things up a bit before you go? Collect all my notes and papers, and my diary too, and take them with you, if you will. You see, I haven't much time for the selection and the arrangement and all that. Get Sam to help, and when you've knocked things into shape, come back, and I'll run over it. I won't be too critical.' 'Of course I'll do it!' said Frodo. 'And of course I'll come back soon: it won't be dangerous any more. There is a real king now and he will soon put the roads in order.' 'Thank you, my dear fellow!' said Bilbo. 'That really is a very great relief to my mind.' And with that he fell fast asleep again."
Just a second here! by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:22:19 AM
Didn't ANYBODY notice my brilliantly sly (slyly brilliant?) Led Zeppelin reference in the running head, and attenuate multi-layered pun thereon? :) (Golly! An audience!)I don't think I'll be free to converse normally until after these are done, and I've seen the movie (IN THAT ORDER!)--sorry to be rude, but here's another big pile o' word dumpin' (fully processed)!
PB Rambles on HOME (V) Before I Actually Get On With It Already, by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:24:07 AM
Or,
PB Rambles on HOME (VI) The Book of Lost Tales, Part I (I) by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:25:37 AM

PB Rambles on HOME (VII) The Book of Lost Tales, Part I (II) by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:27:13 AM

PB Rambles on HOME (VIII) The Book of Lost Tales Part II (2) (Do by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:29:31 AM
YES! YOU READ CORRECTLY! MOVING ON! I
Miami Mofo by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 12:17:28 PM
Yes, and yes. You didn't think could just WALK into the theater tomorrow, did you? Less than high scores must wait 24 hours. Please bring your own No. 2 pencil.
The Sexually Depraved World of J.R.R. Tolkein by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 02:28:50 PM
It's all true, if Landover Baptist tells me so! ;~) http://www.landoverbaptist.org /news1201/rings.html (If you are Unsaved, you are not welcome on their website.)
No more liquids for the duration!! by JD1866	Dec 18th, 2001 06:44:48 PM
Tickets FINALLY went on sale here on Monday. #1 sister-in-law, who gave me a replica of The Ring on Sunday, purchased ours for the 3:45pm screening. Then, my super cool spouse came home and surprised me with tickets for the midnight showing. What a guy. * Pallando, I'll have to read your opus tomorrow as I am a blathering idiot today and am unable to focus on anything. Thanks for your efforts, tho. * Five more hours!!
Quick! Make money off your Line Party with this surefire winner by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 07:02:26 PM
(sniffle, guess who isn't going to a midnight showing..?) * I knew I could find a practical use for all these! Q: Which Fellowship member's name shows up the earliest in all of Tolkien's writings? Where, and when? A: "keen-sighted Elf Legolas Greenleaf"! in "The Fall of Gondolin" written ca. 1917. Bonus follow-up, double or nothing! Q: Who was second? Where, and what race originally? A: "Gimli" an Elf (GASP! The shame, if he knew) in the original "Tale of Tinuviel" * Remember, bet 'em heavy!
PB Rambles on HOME (IX) The Book of Lost Tales Part II (Part II) by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 08:16:07 PM
Hitting the sack early tonight, gonna whip through all of it, and I mean ALL of it! Posting
PB Rambles on HOME (X) by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 09:02:32 PM
Far in the Northern hills of stone / in caverns black there was a throne / by flame encircled; there the smoke / in coiling columns rose to choke / the breath of life, and there in deep / and grasping dungeons lost would creep / to hopeless death all those who strayed / by doom beneath that ghastly shade. /// A king there sat, most dark and fell / of all that under heaven dwell. / Than earth or sea, than moon or star / more ancient was he, mightier far / in mind abysmal than the thought / of Eldar or of Man, and wrought / of strength primeval; ere the stone / was hewn to build the world, alone / he walked in darkness, fierce and dire, / burned, as he wielded it, by fire. /// He
PB Rambles on HOME (XI) Volume III: The Lays of Beleriand by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 10:58:43 PM
That one up there
PB Rambles on HOME (XII) A brief by Pallando Blue	Dec 18th, 2001 11:34:42 PM
The end of Volume III of HOME brings us to 1937 in the writing life of J.R.R. Tolkien
PB Rambles on HOME (XIII) Volume IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth by Pallando Blue	Dec 19th, 2001 12:04:01 AM
Okay, this
Reading Tolkien's poetry by wilko185	Dec 19th, 2001 12:06:50 AM
Yes, I know we have other things on our Tolkien radars right now, but I thought I'd let Pallando know he has another reader :-). I'll firstly say thanks to PB, I'm finding your take on HoME makes me want to go through those books again. I actually find the Lay of Leithian fairly easy to read, in reasonably small portions (a Canto at a time, say). Like most poetry, it helps to read it aloud, or at least at an out-loud pace. Reading the Children of Hurin, though, took me a long time to get the hang of. None of yer new-fangled rhymes there, it's Beowulfian alliteration all the way, a form that takes some practise to get the correct rhythm (for me anyway - maybe I shouldn't have read it with the taste of Leithian's rhyming couplets still in my mouth). But it's worth the effort. The visceral description of the conversation between Morgoth and Hurin, on the hill of the slain warriors from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, for instance, really sticks in my mind. Tolkien's early, more graphic, style works really well on the "dark, evil" scenes, though I find many of the twee details of BOLT's descriptions of the magic of Valinor, Doriath etc (and especially the linking sections in the Cottage of Lost Play) a bit too cloying for my taste. _____ (BTW the paperback HoME III has a B&W photo of Tolkien's manuscript).
I have failed :-( by Pallando Blue	Dec 19th, 2001 12:12:38 AM
Unlucky thirteen. I didn't get to Volume V "The Lost Road". And it is now midnight, it is now December 19th The Day of Days (and some of you are watching ads and trailers at this very moment!) and I have to get to bed if I'm going to get up early enough to call in sick convincingly. And then... and then...? There'll be so many other things to talk about! Why would I ever get around to talking about HOME ever again? Sigh. Maybe after the New Year, when things die down, and thoughts turn to distracting oneself from the need to see Two Towers... I'm telling you, this burst of babbling these last few days have very much kept my own head from exploding. But now, Onward! Tomorrow night, sometime after my second viewing, and the subsequent barroom decompression with firends, I will be curling up in cool clean sheets with a big thick 1st edition hardcover of "The History of Middle-earth Part VI: The History of The Lord of the Rings Part I: The Return of the Shadow" ....... NAMARIE, MELLON!
Dazed and Overwhelmed by JD1866	Dec 19th, 2001 12:33:59 PM
Well, I've seen it and I'm not sure what to say. While the closing credits rolled, I just sat back, stunned and breathless. I felt wrung out and slightly battered. Was it worth the wait? Yes, yes, and again, yes. Many, no doubt will be disappoited but, as I've said before, I was not looking for perfection. I was not seeking the 'holy grail' of movies. What I did find was laughter, sorrow, awe, terror, and incredible beauty. As I write this I recall asking my husband, while on the way home, if he liked the film and he never did quite answer. This does not denote ambivalence, however. We both felt emotionally drained and, oddly enough, uninclined to talk. I still feel this way and want to selfishly hold my feelings close to heart for a little bit longer. Ahh, 3 more hours and I can do it all over again!
Auta i lom by wilko185	Dec 19th, 2001 09:53:01 PM
Did it match my high expectations? YES! Maybe because I didn't have ridiculously high expectations (I don't take reviews like Harry's too seriously, and I knew beforehand most of the major plot changes). Both as a Tolkien fan and a movie-goer I got what I wanted. Was it perfect? No. There were a few wrong notes (for me). But when you're seeing the orchestra live you should expect that. And this wasn't some plastic pre-packaged fantasy, it was the real deal. The Tolkien-purist in me had a few grumbles in the prologue (where the hell is Gil- galad?), and also between Hobbiton and Rivendell, but he soon shut up and settled back with a big grin on his face. We were in PJ's Middle-Earth, and it was a close neighbour to my own version. So much is right about this movie, that it seems churlish to list what was wrong. So I won't. I'll just say I probably had the shortest three hours of my life in that cinema, and I can't wait to plunge back in to Middle Earth again. ____ Best movie ever? Probably not. For one thing, I'm almost certain there's a better one coming out in 12 months' time.... No real review (there have been more than enough, I think you'll agree) except a special mention for the acting. Uniformly excellent, with Bean and Tyler surprising me. BTW, I saw it with one person who hadn't read the book, and two who read it once a while ago. We all loved it.
Turning at last to home afar... by Pippin's Diamond	Dec 20th, 2001 06:30:47 AM
And there I was at the Harry review TB, wondering where everyone had gone, babbling about Galadriel turning into Hulk in the middle of the movie! I shall be back tomorrow, because I wasted all night searching for you all among sweaty fanboy posts screaming madness and sin and ecstasy and epiphany... I thought the One Movie rocked, by the by (fights to remain calm...). Nam
Well now. by Pallando Blue	Dec 20th, 2001 11:54:13 AM
Saw it twice yesterday, 11:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. Holds up to repeated viewing. No, I'd say it does better than that, it improves. This probably sounds slight. Sorry, I'm still a bit... stunned. What a hell of a MOVIE. I left the book at home, in mind and spirit, as best I could. Brought no mental checklists. Tried to blank out all previous spoilers. Did all I could to not try and out-anticipate the film. Let PJ tell a story. Which became easier to do with every frame. And I was wracked by the end of it. I unequivocably love his telling of this tale so far, and I desperately want him to finish telling it. There, that's my review. I don't think I want to examine it for faults and cracks and questionable adaptation decisions, not yet, maybe not for weeks. I can hardly conceive of wanting to diminish the great pleasure this movie gave me. Even rattling off its successes feels like trying to wrap my head around it, make it something less through analysis, and manageable. I prefer this awe I'm still reeling with, a day later. Awe comes so rarely. There'll be endless debates, to be sure, enjoyable ones, heated ones, frustrating ones. But now's not the time for such academics, not for me. Maybe in a few weeks; maybe this summer, as we anticipate what'll be on the DVD. Right now, nitpicking feels moot. Right now, I'm awestruck and grateful. * Thanks for the comments on the HOME schtuff, all. I can't hardly believe anyone's actually read all that blathering hooey! I was feeling I should apologize for all the tedious self-indulgence, making the TB take for ever to load. At least they helped keep my mind distracted from the encroaching December 19th. wilko, I agree with you on Tolkien's poetry--what I typed up there so hastily is, like all of the HOME posts, just a tip of the possible conversation, obviously. * Pippin's Diamond, hullo and hurrah and welcome back, m'dear! You have indeed been sorely missed. Sorry you had a rough semester, happy to have you with us again, if only for a brief winter break.
One comment I WILL make now, by Pallando Blue	Dec 20th, 2001 05:05:19 PM
...Frustratingly, where the udder would be was cloaked in fire, smoke and shadow, its presence STILL indeterminate. And so the debate rages on.... ;~)
Happy Birthday Miami Mofo!!!!!!!!! by Pallando Blue	Dec 21st, 2001 02:12:24 PM
Jeez, forgot all about that! Guess PJ kinda stole yer thunder, eh? ;~) So where the heck is everybody else? I noticed a new TB on the front page--have folx decided to rejoin the hoi polloi, mingle with the riff-raff? *** All right, here's my DVD fantasy. Each movie, 3-disc set. 1st disc for theatrical cut, using up as much memory as possible for the best image/sound possible. 2nd disc for the R-rated director's cut, same high quality as other disc. (I have no idea what thorny issues may result from having 2 differently rated movies in the same case; not my problem, I just want it!) And the 3rd disc with all the requisite juicy making-of extras (and TT teasers!), as many as can be squoze on there. ....So ya see? 3 movies, 3 discs each movie, someday we will have the full complete NINE-DISC SET! Nine! Nine! Nine!
"Your love of the halflings' Thunderweed has clouded your mi by Pallando Blue	Dec 21st, 2001 03:17:58 PM
Heh heh, check this out: http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/ind ex/0,1008,1048608a2202,FF.html
Hi all by BG	Dec 22nd, 2001 04:24:14 PM
Well the long expected movie has arrived at last, and it's a great movie! I must say it gets better with each subsequent viewing. It wasn't till my third viewing that I was able to fully take everything in. I think Liv's performance as Arwen was excellent and I could easily put up with more screen time for Liv. The two Sir Ians were outstanding. There is so much that was good I couldn't possibly list it all. One thing I was surprised about was the lack of any indication at the end of the movie that this is just part 1 of a 3 part story. At every screening I went to there was audible disappointment from the audience at the abrupt ending. I'm sure there will be many people who see this movie not knowing about the 2 movies yet to come. Did anyone else notice this? BTW, happy birthday Miami Mofo!
It's unanimous by wilko185	Dec 23rd, 2001 10:53:31 AM
Every Tolkien fan is saying this thing gets better with a second viewing, and I still haven't found time for one yet! Well, I loved it the first time round, so can't wait for seconds (it's like the book in this regard, maybe). I'm catching a plane in a few hours... so my second viewing will be on a different continent (jet-lagged, falling asleep half-way through probably). Anyway, I'll be offline a couple of weeks, so happy Christmas, holidays, whatever you guys do.... wilko
Yeah, but what about second breakfast? by Pippin's Diamond	Dec 25th, 2001 08:59:35 AM
Whew! Glad to see you're still here! I thought you had already left for greener pastures and I couldn't come. Double M, sounds like you had an insanely happy birthday! Congrats! And a big hullo to all, Pallando (did you get my thanks?), morGoth, MM, elanor, etc. Sorry I wasn't here more often, but I had a rotten semester... I guess it's safe to say it here openly because it's an old TB and chances are I'm not being watched, but... I went and got myself a stalker at college. Yes, a stalker. That's why I couldn't post at school, because I was afraid he might find out my AICN handle (I still am. I've become very paranoid). It stressed the life out of me and now I'm kinda depressed. The whole thing somehow sucked the hobbitish out of me. I feel sort of like Frodo going back to the Shire. But anyway, my Dec. 19th was a bit troublesome because I thought I wasn't gonna make it, but at the end my brother, my mom and I did get there in time, got some nice seats and watched in awe... I was desperate at first because it was all voice and no pictures. Then it came. O blessed PJ, those Battle of the Last Alliance scenes were so GREAT! I spent the whole time elbowing my brother (and viceversa). At Bag End I realized we still had a lot of movie to go... but by the time it was over it still felt too brief. Bree was good, but I wish we had gotten to see more of it. Pippin is bloody brilliant. ;) My mom liked Viggo enough, but she's a Sharpe fan so she kept saying Sean Bean would've been better in the role. Fantastic performances from all of the cast. Moria was awesome, but not as good as the first sequences. I imagined it better, contrary to the B. of the L. Alliance. The Troll actually looked better than Harry Potter's. The Balrog was PERFECT. Fire and shadow, just like Tolkien described. My mom actually cried when old Gandalf "died", even though she knows he's not really dead! My brother was almost crying too, but of joy, because he thought the Balrog kicked so much ass. Personally I enjoyed the aftermath almost as much--the way the Fellowship reacted, and Boromir's line. I thought at times PJ gave Boromir a bit more humanity to his character. I for one liked his death better in the movie than in the book. Arwen was amazing--she's so good, my brother and I still entertain the cockamamie idea that Liv was dubbed. And Lurtz... well, he's definitely worth that killer beheading. Plus he scares the bejeezus out of me. Final battle seemed more exciting to me than Moria. PJ's shadow world is a bit too dark, but I like it. Elijah totally got me in that scene where he's thinking at the bank of the river. Loved the movie, can't wait for the DVD, going to see it today again. Main stuff that bothered me: Hulk Galadriel + Merry and Pippin embarking on a suicide mission just for the heck of it. The rest is only small details (spidery orcs, nearly-expressionless Gimli, absurd falling rock scene, absurd "still sharp" Boromir pun, absurd "you're not Isildur" speech, unexplained stone Trolls AFTER Amon Sul, Arwen stealing Frodo's fire, who the hell is Sam, who the hell is Legolas, who the hell is Gimli, people at the Council fighting, no visible reforging of Narsil, no explanation as to why Bilbo turned old all of a sudden, several scenes that we saw in trailers that we didn't get in the actual movie, blah blah and so on and so forth). Some uncouth people at my theater thought Frodo had really died at the Ford of Bruinen and that the rest of the movie was just a dream of poor dead Frodo's (that being the big surprise twist at the end of the movie, duh!). Some others thought Arwen was actually the moth Gandalf talked to (because of the choice of music). Some others were pissed off because they didn't like the "ending", and there were even a few buffoons who insisted that hobbits were really gnomes. All in all, I liked the movie a lot. It's wonderful, and I'm not disappointed in the least. It reached my (pretty realistic) expectations, although it did not surpass them (I must say I think people are criminally insane to rank it as the #1 movie of all time at IMDb, but to each his own). And I have a newfound respect for Bakshi's animation. I liked it before, but now I see it's even better than I thought, and the guy doesn't deserve all the negative criticism. Anyhoo, those were my $5.02. I still have much to say, but not enough time to say it all. I hope you have quite a merry Christmas, gang. I sure will. FOTR and cherry cheesecake, ah! Nam
Talkback order... sigh... by Pippin's Diamond	Dec 25th, 2001 09:03:15 AM
Where will this one end up? Dagnabit...
Who wants to invite me for dinner next year? by JD1866	Dec 28th, 2001 03:09:32 AM
Greetings, tailenders. I hope everyone had a very merry whatever you happen to believe in. My holiday was grand, if you disregard the teeny, tiny fire I ignited on my mother's dining room table. It wasn't my fault!! Really. Well, ok. I DID neglect to turn the gas burner off which started the wicker bread basket to smolder which went into a full blown blaze when I wrapped the linen napkin around it on the table. Of course, I NOW realise that perhaps blowing on the foot high flames wasn't exactly the correct course of action to take. I quickly recovered and carried the burning bundle to the kitchen sink. Mom, naturally, poo-pooed that idea and said to put it in the garage (by this time it was getting a tad warm and I was afraid my hair was going to start to burn), so down the hall and into the garage it went. BUT I wasn't the one to put a card board box over the whole flamming mess. No sir. That was her fine contribution to the event. Finally, my hubby pushed his way past my mother and stomped out the flames (I was never so glad to see them clod-hoppers as in that moment). Mom merely looked at him and said "Well, great. Now I can't try to save any of those rolls for dinner." But other than that small incident, the day was great. * I went to the see the movie again today with family & friends. I sat next to my high school chum who knew nothing about the story. Like Harry, I greatly enjoyed watching her reactions to the film. She sqirmed when the buggs crawled out, jumped when the wraiths popped out at Frodo on the way to the ferry, and I damn near thought she would crawl into my lap during the attack on Bree! She adored the Shire and the beautiful scenery. Her only complaint was that she has to wait two more years to see the rest of the story. * Sorry, but I have to disagree about Galadiel's transformation. It was just too over the top for me and I had a very hard time deciphering her dialogue. I found the startling fx and vocal distortion to be an unwelcome distraction. I did like Gandalf's tranformation, though. Much more subtle and less intrusive.
MHO's by BG	Dec 28th, 2001 04:46:47 PM
morGy, your wisdom shines forth and I agree with all you say. (BTW, I offer my commiserations regarding Merry's ELVEN blade ;-) As far as Galadriel's transformation is concerned I neither strongly like nor dislike it. I guess it's just a matter of personal taste. Pip's D, I liked the way PJ had the Hobbits camped beneath the stone Trolls without explanation. Anyone who has read the book doesn't need an explanation and those who haven't read the book will discover the truth when they do read the book! (A really switched on viewer could even put that scene together with Bilbo's earlier story to the Hobbit children and work it out anyway!) There are many examples of this, like the way the Fellowship are all wearing their elven cloaks after Lothlorien even though they are never shown recieving them. This all fits in with PJ's explanation that even though something in the book isn't shown in the movie that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I only have two nit-picks, one minor and the other very minor. The first is that I didn't like the way PJ portrayed Lothlorien. In the book Lothlorien is a beautiful, wondrous place. In the movie it is a dark and bizarre place where everyone seems to speak very slowly. My other very minor nit-pick is that I felt Sam's drowning was a little over done. But thats all! Two minor things, more to do with personal taste than anything else. I even didn't mind Rhadagast the moth! So, when do we start discussing/speculating about TTT? ;-)
Yeep, has our haven been abandoned? by Pallando Blue	Jan 4th, 2002 11:38:18 AM
Howdy all, anybody out there? It's been a long and crazy holiday season for me--HAPPY NEW YEAR TAILENDERS!--but it's hard to believe I'm the first to post here in 2002! I've finally had time to surf a bit and catch up a little (a very very little) and man do I appreciate this private hideaway more'n ever! [Pats long-winded self on back for whole HOME thing ;)] It's crazy around here! Disturbing, even. ...And the last few days, sheezus pleeezus! After that N'Sync cameo thing dropped, there's been what appears to be GENUINE PSYCHOSES ON DISPLAY in the Star Wars TBs. Criminy! And I'm a Star Wars Geek too! I have no compunctions saying this. I enjoyed TPM much, I'm looking forward to Ep. II, and I will probably ditch work with my friends to see it opening day, just like FOTR. But the SW boards here... ugh. Scary. And now the first few days of every new LOTR board is getting as bad. I have a bad feeling about the direction some of the LOTR movie-fandom is taking--it's easy to call 'em disgruntled SW fans, but still. There can't be a single story around here, about some completely unrelated movie, without some idiot piping in with how much [LOTR/SW] rules and [SW/LOTR] sucks, because [any list of reasons]. The redundancy of those "conversations" is moot to the point of self-parody. Okay: Myself, I honestly don't understand the type of person who hated FOTR-the-movie and feels compelled to say so (no need to Love it like we do, but a good movie's a good movie), but I also have no desire to try, or to "convert" their opinion, or yell at them for it. (I should qualify by saying I know one or two people of intelligence and taste who were at best lukewarm toward it--just not their cup o' tea, and I'm fine with that. That kind of opinion can make for rousing, jovial pub chat.) I also avoid utter boors at social functions, likewise conversations with people whose political or religious convictions I find distasteful. Why bother? No one's opinions will be changed, just a lot of time and breath wasted. Life's too short. **** And so, let me say that I'm more appreciative than ever for this Coalition of Tailenders. THIS has long been enjoyable, a sedate debate among fans, hashing over our varied views on the current work's successes and shortcomings, and speculation on the future work's, both frantically eager and cautiously wary. This appeals to my inner Rings Geek AND Film Geek, both of which are horrified by the current state of AICN affairs. I'm all for staying here until (1) Harry's FOTR review falls off the front page (at last) AND there's but one LOTR headline on the Cool News page, and IT'S sliding off. Ya know, like the old days [wistful sigh]. I do believe that until that happens (which may not be until mid-May) I'm only going to lurk them other LOTR TBs. Why bother? Life's too short.
Then again..! by Pallando Blue	Jan 4th, 2002 01:55:42 PM
Well, looks like peaceful shores HAVE been discovered elsewhere in AICN! Good news indeed. Just thought I'd pop in HERE to ease off them harsher words above (gibbered out pre-coffee--always a risk). I... I can be brave! And venture to new TBs! See y'all there!
...just passing thru... still on vacation..... by wilko185	Jan 5th, 2002 10:04:03 PM
Haven't read latest TB's. I don't know know where everyone is posting now, and don't have the online time to find out, so I'll plonk this in the old HoME TB. I guess this is partly old news by now, but what the fgtyrtyghehg..... On a second (or third :)) viewing, I missed the fabled automobile (blowing up some dust, when Sam is in the cornfield, in the upper right-hand corner when he's going "further" than he's been before, apparently), but I wasn't really looking for it. Is it really there? ______ On a repeated viewing, the only thing that really jarred me was the use of the word "medicine" (from Latin: medicna?). "Only Elvish medicine can save him now" says Strider. I'm really surprised this got through, everything in me was crying out for the word "healing" at that point. That was the only point at which "Elvish had left the building" for me. I could just about accept the anachronism of "dwarf-tossing", as it was obviously a joke, but the latinism of "medicine" was a slip, for me. Why? [b]Because Tolkien taught me so[/b]. In a Robert Jordan epic I wouldn't have quibbled, but in the exactly-described Tolkien world, pseudo-Old English prevails in recorded speech, latinate words always submit to anglo-saxon alternatives (eg. "tobacco" was verboten in favour of pipeweed, etc.), and it just stuck in my craw a bit. Wow. how minor a complaint is that? If I was a film critic, of course, I'd be all ..... but I'm not. So I won't. I am not intending to critique anything at all, just glance at imperfections...... _______ In ref to repeat viewings, one audience I was with laughed uproariously at Sam's, didn't see nuffink "nothing important, just about a dark lord and the end of the world", and one was silent (except me: "ha ha! oh..."). Also, one was struck to utter shocked silence by the first arrow Boromir took (an audience full of squirming kids and sceptical, chatting, adults btw), while in a different sitting someone else laughed (while tears were welling in my eyes). Just goes to show.... something, maybe, not sure what.... _______ If you want to ridicule this film, you can; if you want to take potshots from a position of Tolkien-esque superiority you can (believe me).... but if you want to enjoy a good film... I'm telling(taking) all my friends to see FOTR.
elanor, it is a pleasure and delight to watch you work. :) by Pallando Blue	Jan 7th, 2002 05:48:20 PM
Spent all my available play-online time reading your wonderful rants, raves, and work-em-overs, and don't regret a second of it! Brava! Bravissima! I love to watch you lay the wood to those idjits, yet in a decidedly non-rabid fan-orc manner. Just shows to go ya: you can learn all there is to know about a Tailender in a month, and after long years they can STILL surprise you. ;-) Sigh, though I do agree with morG on one level, that yer casting yer pearls before swine-faced Dunlanders. But if you want to keep smacking heads in, wading into the fray like Viggo into a stinkin' pile o' Uruks, have at it! You're more 'n capable! * All right, my nits to pick, briefly: (1) You beat me to Csokas, elanor, surprised no one else mentioned him earlier. Yipe! I keep picturing PJ, the crew, and all the other cast members steadily leaning forward further and further during the scene, anticipating... Celeborn... fin-al-ly.. fin-ish-ing... his liiiine... "CUT! Take 54? FINE! Print it! Okay, set up for the medium shot, Marty, you don't talk so much, just stand there, got me?" (2) Council of Elrond, the gigantic Dwarves (not quiiiite forced into the perspective) as Frodo brings the Ring to the podium. Hell, it's in all the stills of that shot (tho recently closer cropped, I've noticed). Full 6-5 of JR-D! Hulking! White-haired dwarf nearly as big (closer to center)! On the right of the screen. Very quick, but gets a small smiling wince out of me. You CAN still see it in that promo still. (3) Pippin's comic-relief: great; twice in too-quick succession at the end of the Council: not so great. Actually thrice, if you consider "You'll need someone of intelligence along" as one and "this mission.. quest.. thing" as a second. But then right away, "Grreeet! [I do a great brogue in person, btw;)] where we goo-in?" welp, kinda milks it a little; becomes especially apparent right on the >blip< of the reel change there. My first choice would be to cut the "mission, quest, thing" bit--the humor of the first part of the sentence works just great, and gets to Merry's jibe quicker. ** You know what? That's about all I can think of! Good thing, 'cause I've overextended my online play-time. Naughty hobbit-lass, keeping me reading great stuff all afternoon! Someone give Skyway a discreet nod over here, eh? Wonder where this post'll end up... FIRST! FIRST! I'M FIRST! YAHOO!
Jeez, almost forgot to mention by Pallando Blue	Jan 7th, 2002 05:54:58 PM
Boy, them American Film Institute people sure do got good taste, don't they? YEEE-HAAAWWW!! When do the Oscar noms come out? After the GGs get over with? * Also, I've been keeping these fun sites bookmarked, check up on em every couple of days. The running tally for LOTR: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/d ata/lordoftherings/ AND very interesting, their running compare and contrast page: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/d ata/lordoftherings/versus.htm * I like to watch PJ steadily reeling them in..... :-D
"dark satanic mills" by wilko185	Jan 8th, 2002 08:44:42 PM
Don't read too much into "satanic" in that quote about the Hobbiton mill, miami. It could just be referring to any normal mill, even the pastoral one seen in FOTR, and not necessarily a spiky-wheeled monstrosity. The adjective "satanic" is often lazily applied to "mill" by journalists (esp. UK ones), due to the phrase from Blake's well-known Jerusalem poem, "and was Jerusalem builded here, amongst those dark satannic mills?". This was probably a reference by Blake to English industrial revolution mills: towering, coal-fired, smoke-blackened edifices blighting the landscape, which he seems to have viewed as being intrinsically unnatural and evil. Tolkien would probably have agreed (on any structure more advanced than Sandyman's simple waterwheel-run corn-grinder, anyway) so the phrase may have seemed apposite to a journalist, when talking about the most obvious bit of mechanization in the rural Shire. ______ Personally, I'm not holding my breath for the Scouring to be included (in the theatrical release at least), though Chris Lee was quoted as saying he was in the second film, and "maybe" the third..... _______ Re Elanor's Elvish inquiry, I must confess the only lines I recognized from the book in the film were probably Glorfindel/Arwen's "Noro Lim, Asfaloth!" telling the horse Asfaloth to run for it, the Ring insciption: "Ash nazg ...." and Gandalf's "Edro!" and "Mellon" at Moria gate. "Elen sila lumenn omentielvo" eluded me in the film. Things like Arwen's and Saruman's spells (calling up river and storm, respectively) were of course invented. All(?) Tolkien language quotes used in the film are analysed in some detail at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/m ovie.htm ______ One more nitpick (I'm sure it's been mentioned): there are apparently no hobbits living in Bree! I understand why this was done, but I miss them (does Barliman still have some special hobbit-type rooms in the north wing?)
I like LOTR! by BG	Jan 9th, 2002 09:01:44 PM
Wilko - I also was interested in the ways different audiences reacted to the same jokes/situations. For example, of all the screenings I went to, only once did an audience laugh at Sam's line "I weren't droppin' no eaves sir!
morGoth... by BG	Jan 10th, 2002 05:46:57 PM
...I think that plot summary for TTT is highly suspect! It starts by saying "Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli learn that Sam and Frodo have gone off to Mordor together. Distraught over Frodo's choice, Aragorn realizes he can do no more to aid the Ringbearer, and he instead sets out in pursuit of the Orcs with Legolas and Gimli." For a start this happens at the end of FOTR not the beginning of TTT. Also Aragorn isn't "Distraught over Frodo's choice", he is in complete agreement that he should go alone. This is the plot from the book, not the movie. Later in the plot summary it says "After Saruman's army has been defeated at the Hornburg, Gandalf leads a small company to Isnegard where they confront Saruman and Gandalf casts him from the order of the Wizards and leaves him a prisoner of the Ents. " Then two paragraphs later "Gandalf faces off with Saruman and Grima Wormtongue. Both Grima and Saruman are killed in the confrontation. As Saruman breathes his last, he relaxes his hand and lets go a small glass sphere, one of the ancient stones of seeing, a palantir." This makes no sense!! Does Gandalf confront Saruman twice, first to imprison him then to kill him?? Does Gandalf cast Saruman from the order, then kill him, then leave him a prisoner of the Ents?!? This is just a plot summary of the book with a few extra bits thrown in (not very well) to reflect some of the movie rumours. A complete load of crap if you ask me.
I really like LOTR! by BG	Jan 10th, 2002 06:17:00 PM
Hi elanor, here are some contact addresses, Weta Workshop can be contacted as follows: Weta Workshop, PO Box 15-208, Miramar, Wellington, New Zealand, email: workshop_email@wetafx.co.nz Weta Digital can be contacted as follows: Weta Digital, PO Box 15-208, Miramar, Wellington, New Zealand, email: digital@wetafx.co.nz .Apart from these I have no idea how to contact PJ. Miami - I hate to rain on your parade, but during my last viewing of FOTR I specifically kept an eye out for the 'spiky wheel' and I saw it at Isengard on the edge of one of the chasms, just before the camera swoops down into the chasm. Also the spiky wheel on the mill doesn't really look like the one we saw Saruman on in the spy photo. Sorry.
??!! by Mil Mascaras	Jan 12th, 2002 12:42:35 AM
What a nice little corner of AICN you have here! Many thanks to Elanor for the map. Just a few rambling thoughts...I have a tendency to grab onto a movie and sort of make it my mental playground, from many angles. Whether it's just being Legolas in a mind movie ( c'mon, we all do it ) or mentally drawing and designing orc helmets, or humming the music, whatever. Movies stick with me. So far, three movies have settled inside my cranium: Planet of the Apes ( first movie I ever saw, I was five ) Star Wars, ( the groundbreaker, it's the reason I sometimes close one eye and zoom in on a plastic model to get that visual effect ) and now Lord of The Rings. At no time have I felt like an older favorite was threatened by the new. I love Star Wars! It's a great playground George gave us, Tattooine, Dagobah, hell...even the Deathstar looks like it would be fun to run around in. And at no time did I feel, as a Star Wars fan, the need to downplay the success of Lord of the Rings...because I am also a fan of LOTR. It's that simple! I simply make room. No, scratch that, no need to make room in my head, there's fertile ground up there for an infinite amount of daydreams. Why can't some of the angrier talkbackers see things that way? Do they have one favorite book and read and enjoy no others? I think not. I guess movies are different, and people get attached to them. Like being a Dallas Cowboys fan or something, hehehehe. Oh what the heck, let 'em ramble on about SW vs. LOTR, it's not MY blood pressure going up. :)
I found you! You old Tolkienoids yous!... by Skyway Moaters	Jan 12th, 2002 02:02:57 PM
... posts with todays date on Em! according to my handy dandy FOTR desk calendar wot features a gorgeous film still of a Nazgul riding down a Buckland gate watch Hobbit today BTW. Thanks for the rather cryptic 10824 Miami. Got to go read, see who's been here, what the thread is, etc. Be right back... Oh by the way the Calendar says we got a new moon tonight ... cool.. Huh Huh LOTR is cool huh huh Yeah LOTR Rocks he he ...FIRE! he he he he fire is cool!... I AM THE GREAT CORNHOLIO! GIVE ME TV FOR MY BUUUUUNNNGG HOLE! Jeeeezus! Where did THAT come from?
Miami... by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 03:46:55 PM
...yes, it was US$2 mil (over NZ$4 mil!). The really scary thing is he very nearly missed the cut! Oh the humanity! morGoth - I'm sure you're right about Anduril. I think PJ's probably saving it up so that it can be a powerful symbol that Aragorn, A) has accepted his birthright and is seeking the throne of Gondor, and B) can challenge Sauron with. Mil - Welcome to the tailenders! I think of AICN TB's like a zoo. This TB is like the cafe in the middle of the zoo, a haven from the animals, where civilized people can relax and share in a little learned discourse. We like to wander the zoo from time to time, as is our wont. We may even jump the fence and play with the monkeys or wrestle with the lions, but when the dung begins to get a little thick on the ground it's back to the cafe for a cappuccino and some good company :-)
Testing by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 03:54:02 PM

Testing by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 03:54:37 PM

more testing by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 06:25:13 PM

Here's a re-post due to order problems! by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 06:28:55 PM
Miami ...yes, it was US$2 mil (over NZ$4 mil!). The really scary thing is he very nearly missed the cut! Oh the humanity! morGoth - I'm sure you're right about Anduril. I think PJ's probably saving it up so that it can be a powerful symbol that Aragorn, A) has accepted his birthright and is seeking the throne of Gondor, and B) can challenge Sauron with. Mil - Welcome to the tailenders! I think of AICN TB's like a zoo. This TB is like the cafe in the middle of the zoo, a haven from the animals, where civilized people can relax and share in a little learned discourse. We like to wander the zoo from time to time, as is our wont. We may even jump the fence and play with the monkeys or wrestle with the lions, but when the dung begins to get a little thick on the ground it's back to the cafe for a cappuccino and some good company :-)
morG by wilko185	Jan 13th, 2002 09:40:52 PM
Thanks, I saw your reply in the latest LOTR thread, but figured you'd have more chance of seeing a reply here, the other TB is dead (though the order here is getting hosed, "the centre cannot hold"). IIRC, Harry himself eventually posted a reply to frodo.live's offer in a talkback, saying it wasn't his problem, contact the aicn webmaster. frodolives said he would. He seemed really keen, actually- I posted a few queries in his forum and got instant and helpful replies. He seemed to know what he was doing on the technical side as well. And as I said, moriarty posted in the new talkback system itself, and seemed quite impressed. As he should be, I really think it was a good system. (For anyone wondering what I'm on about, frodo.lives coded a nice, free, working talkback system for aicn to use, a couple of months ago.) I wish they'd take it up soon, the current order-scrambling situation is farcical. Unsurprisingly, the level of debate now seems to be in decline here. Not HERE, of course, but AICN generally, I mean. (How hard would it be to load TBs as text, then run a script to sort posts by date before putting them back into html? I don't know how to actually do this, but if any programmers out there can help, I'd consider doing it, if I were to continue reading talkbacks here) [Btw morG, I think I agree with you on mercier - he's so dedicated, he must be on the payroll. I'm surprised anyone even reads his posts anymore, let alone takes him seriously, but I see he's trolling quite nicely on the SW TB]
"wilko's rants" miami? by wilko185	Jan 13th, 2002 09:55:34 PM
I have not yet begun to rant ;-). I may transfer my grumbles on the scrambling topic to non-LOTR talkbacks though (like those which have a chance of being read by anyone), or start emailing the webmaster here. Or then again, I'm not the only AICN refugee posting on other message-boards, like Coming attractions.... ________ If anyone wants something to really rant about, look at this LOTR page: www.stormfront.org/forum/forum display.php? s=66a70663f39e84493cfe8e4e828a d530&forumid=63 [remove space from middle]. WARNING this is on a white supremacist website with some pretty vile views expressed. They really like JRRT though. I am wondering if it's worthwhile posting some opposing viewpoints there. Probably not, but "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil etc". (What's really galling is they have such a nice talkback system, rant rant rant....)
Tree branch? by BG	Jan 13th, 2002 10:00:19 PM
I thought she'd just cut herself shaving.
I'm back by Sir Mordred	Jan 14th, 2002 02:48:28 PM
and was famous for about 30 minutes, until the next story came. Welcome to the tailenders Mil, I'm not giong to read to catch up on the stream- just read a few posts before yours and your last post seals your place in our club, at least in my opinion. I get the impression that some people were bashing like crazy on the last TB. I just gave up when we got a TB every 5 minutes. And Harry's review was faar too big. Anyways, I'm back and that's about all I have to say: thanks miami.
FUCK- WHERE WILL THIS END UP? by Sir Mordred	Jan 14th, 2002 02:49:34 PM
guys, let's find some fantasia talkback or another one that isn't screwed up.
Pallando- by Sir Mordred	Jan 14th, 2002 02:56:26 PM
Here's my theory- if you ever see this: Before the movie came out LOTR was basically self-exclusatory, no true morons would ever read it. Now while the movie gave us an experience we'll not likely forget, it also opened the doors for morons, like that fetus guy reporting on Sundance, to see what we have loved, and bash it. So basically, while we can get great new people to join us in Tokien fandom, like Mal, we also open the door for morons who just don't understand tolerance or patience. And for Pete's sake, we're tailenders, we basically all love Star Wars and we definently don't have to defend that to each other- I know it's a habit we formed on populated TBs, but now we're back to tailends.
Spotting Gil-galad by wilko185	Jan 14th, 2002 08:28:23 PM
I'm not sure if I've identified Gil-galad or not, but I read on another board that he definitely appears, killing orcs in the prologue. He is apparently identifiable by his distinctive armor, different from that of the standard Elvish knights. He is also seen in the intro, when the ringbearers are "introduced" (altho the other two apart from Galadriel, are a bit indistinct). According to a film extra, Gil-Galad had some dialogue, so yet again, Roll on the director's cut DVD! (the original cut was 5 hours, apparently, director's cut may be less www.petitiononline.com/LoTRdvd /petition.htm) _______ Re Martinez's plot summary, in addition to the already mentioned inconsistencies, isn't it odd that it reads like Gandalf is unaware of the palantir at orthanc, when he saw it in the first film ("Aragorn identifies the sphere as a palantir...")? Almost everything I've read of Martinez's has struck me as suspect in some way, and this summary is no exception.
First! Woo hoo! by wilko185	Jan 14th, 2002 08:31:51 PM
You've gotta laugh (or you'll cry) :) (That's the second chuckle I've had today, after George Bush's "Homer Simpson-esque" antics)
Gil-Galad by Sir Mordred	Jan 14th, 2002 11:39:25 PM
I'm pretty sure I saw him and Cirdan, but i missed him in the battle scene, I did see Elendil, but missed poor young Anarion. morGoth, I am greatly gratified to hear you phrase your response in exactly that manner. People that don't understand tolerance and patience, but I've endured them. Or somethign liek that. It seems to me that there are far too many people today that claim to be tolerant but have no tolerance for teh intolerant, or those that don't agree with them. I guess that's what it means to be a true hippy. Ingold, Park City was great. I think I had more fun with the people I was with than I did watching those great movies. In fact I met these two great guys, not counting the people i met form my college. One guy was a screenwriter- or an aspiring one, and the other was a filmmaker who was in the process of editing The Black Ninja. both I met at Lola, and they both likied it, or i think they did cause they stayed for the Q & A session, the others I knew there hated it and ran away.
wish I had those mystical TB-fixing powers :( by wilko185	Jan 15th, 2002 06:06:57 PM
For anyone who wants a picture of Gil Galad (or most of the rest of the cast) www.quintessentialwebsites.com /lordoftherings/moviecast/ I assume they're all on TORn somewhere as well...
HEY! READ THIS TB TAILENDERS!!! by Sir Mordred	Jan 19th, 2002 06:06:03 AM
Hey type in 11226 or just Sir Mordred in the search section- it's a virtually clean TB. Let's go there cause I don't want to read this one anymore.
Any Tolkienoids still out there? by Skyway Moaters	Jan 21st, 2002 07:45:52 PM
Or has this tail end fianlly died ? I Guess I should go look at dates first. Didn't find much last time which why I nevermade a second post. FOTR got shut out at the Golden Globes but who gives a shit ? Be right back(?)

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