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That last epi of SAMURAI JACK... A Parable For The Death Of Comics'
Hey Folks, Harry here... I don't know if you are like me and if you are currently a card carrying member of the most fantastic wonderful animated show on television since the very best of Timm & Dini... And definitely the best original concept animated show since THE SIMPSONS... SAMURAI JACK is a religion. I adore it in the most primal of ways. And for those that think it is just hack and chop, I offer up the following to make you think... You see SAMURAI JACK is about the issues closest to our hearts....
Hi Harry,
I think the first 30-minute episode of Samurai Jack
(aired 8/16) was a symbolic representation of the fall
of comic books as a serious artform for children.
The wooly beasts' utopian society represented comics
at the height of their popularity. Comics were bought
and shared at cheap prices. Everything was brand new,
and kids were happy to read and enjoy the beauty of
comics. Comics were enjoyed by the people who loved
them for next to nothing. Kind of a comic book
Socialism, if you will.
But, the little guys represented collectors, and it
was two things they said that started this idea.
Number one was the conversation two had where the one
had bought some sort of item "still in the plastic for
10 (creds, etc.)". Also, when Samurai Jack told them
the city looked old, they said "Thank you."
The collectors moved in from nowhere, and they chained
up the comic beasts. The artform, previously free and
wild, was now restrained and forced into narrow
parameters (i.e. profit). The glowing power orb was
Marvel's control during the late 80's when they
single-handedly drove comics into the ground with
their crappy foil covers, multiple series and poly
bags.
I also noticed that the collectors didn't even inhabit
the buildings and city they loved so much. They all
slept and worked outside. This would parallel comics
now being hung in their CGC plastic case and never
touched. I mean, if I ever owned a copy of Amazing
Fantasy 15, you're damn right I'd read it, smell it
and, most importantly, touch it. Every chance I got.
The collectors wanted to preserve the old and worship
it for value, not for art. I mean, what kid can now
afford to read the classic Lee and Kirby stories? Or
any sort of Wolverton or Ditko classics? None, because
asshole baby boomers have turned comics into a
high-priced money market. Even quality reprints cost
hundreds of dollars. Hell, I'm an adult and I can't
afford to buy them.
When Marvel's power ended, comics began to recover,
but there is still a lot of work to do. The buildings
must be rebuilt and the beasts' areas must be cleared
again.
I was left wondering who the head wooly was supposed
to represent. Surely not Stan Lee. Karen Berger? The
wooly did resemble Alan Moore. The point could be
argued.
Thanks,
grendel's_dead
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+ Expand All
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...as it should be. Aku, you cannot stop me! -
The analysis of the episode is interesting. I had caught ther dialogue about the age of the buildings and the plastic wrap, but I had attributed it to rabid fanboys having their action figures, et al, still in the bubble case and shrink wrap. Very unique perspective.
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...now I wish I hadn't fallen asleep five minutes into the episode.
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Aug 16, 2001 9:27:14 AM CDT
I've been reading comics since the mid-70's - and the "crappy fo
by smugbug
In 1991, Marvel printed X-Men #1. This book was a title created for penciller Jim Lee - he also was given some plot duties. The book went on to sell over a million copies. Now, it had good artwork - but the story telling was atrocious. And so it began the following trend: foil covers, poly bagging - "gimmicks". Gimmicks REALLY got on a roll after Image was formed in '93. The "superstar" artist/creator took over and storytelling was shoved into the backseat unfortunately. This trend was being followed by every publisher. Poor storytelling and just pushing out the gimmicks. Oh, and pencillers like Rob Liefield who couldn't draw themselves out of a paper bag became hot properties. BUT, the madness began to end and the reality of needing good stories started to hit again. And now we have some GREAT stuff again. Like Age of Bronze, Top 10 and more..........comic books will never die. Never!
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Boy, thats a very jumping to conclusions article. I could fins a dozen symbolic veiwpoints about anything, that doesnt make me right. I think the writer of the article is a grabbing at straws a little. Tartovsky was just doing your average run of the mill taking one culture taking advantage of another story. Aint it Cool is really slacking off when they let weak stuff like this get a full feature instead of being some talkback rant. And Jack is fair...it hasnt even ran a whole season yet and everyone is wetting their fanboy pants over it. Let the thing get its run over with before we all start lamenting how its the new golden cow of animation.
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Yes it is true, good reprints do cost a lot of money. But I don't think it's the baby boomers' fault. After all, they just want to recapture a bit of their childhood. It's simply economics, there is a demand for the old books, so companies gouge.
I was a kid during the seventies and am buying up as many back issues as I can ( the holy grail...The Planet of The Apes black and white magazines! ) and find that some of them are quite affordable. DC's House of Mystery/Secrets is a great little bargain. You get lots of cool stories and artists like Berni Wrightson, Alfredo Alcala, Nestor Redondo, and Alex Nino. Check 'em out! -
I fully expected the idea to be called idiotic and crazy, but a 'brain fart'? Can't someone just say something about my mother or call me an ignorant fool?
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Aug 16, 2001 10:21:49 AM CDT
Speaking of comic books, what happened to the weekly comic book
by vroom socko
Not that it was all that great, but I kinda miss it.
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Apparently, Genndy Tartakovsky is a huge comics fan; just about every interview with him mentions his love for comics, especially Marvel. I've watched this episode a few times now and Grendel's comments make sense. Now I have another reason to watch it again. Thanks, G.
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After a REALLY long, REALLY rank dryspell of clones. During that time, and even now, we are witnessing great titles too few and far between, but that's what keeps the good from the bad.
Lifield sucks, always sucked, and I threw out any New Mutants subscription issues he had a hand in, when he started back in '91. Apparently, getting my subscriptions in Chile a decade ago, I may have been immune to the crackwhore mass mentality that was telling people his artwork was so great. His later stuff has been fun to see, but back in the 90's, hoo boy, he stank like a fat diva's panties in the 4th opera act...
And Spawn-boy's animated series and toys are infinitely better than the comic, which says all the wrong things about comic media and mass-marketing ploys. Oh, and Mignola may be repetitive, but at least he knew how to use gothic contrast to his advantage, AND tell a story. If he sells his Hellboy title out to a lousy movie, he deserves to rot in hell.
Samurai Jack ep. intended to parallel our comic-fandom-hysteria age? Those little blue guys had "Collector" written all over their them. -
Comics didn't suck in the '90s... MARVEL Comics sucked in the '90s... as well as its offspring Image, Top Cow, etc... You guys just weren't looking hard enough for quality mags... mostly indies...
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In case anyone missed it the first time or want to watch it again with this perspective in mind, It should be on again tomorrow (friday) at 7:00 EST.
btw, anyone else see a connection between the tasers and the hordes of self-appointed internet critics that populate message boards like this one? kinda sobering if you think about how narrowing our stupid expectations can be to artists, when the smallest mistake or diversion get flamed to death. -
Put an end to the serialization of comics. Maybe thats a bit too extreme. But you have to admit its a fucking waste of space to keep getting boxes and boxes of single issues collecting up. Give a full complete story in a trade paperback so we can put them on BOOK shelves instead of those icky boxes we've all come to love. Kill off characters and let them stay dead, except for bucky. He should be treated like Filler Bunny, constantly revived and tortured for our enjoyment. Let me digress for a second, Samurai Jack rules! If distributors still have to beat a dead horse and crank out serialized comics, at least print them on shitty paper and if the there's a decent story arc put that in a trade hard-bound on quality paper so that the rest of us can buy still afford to pick up trades at a modest price and the serialized format for dirt cheap. Bring back comics on newsprint, if you make 'em cheaper you can take the risk of selling them at other places besides comic book specialty stores. I gotta hand it to Virgin Records though. If you ever see one of their store GO! They have probably the best selection of trade's I've ever seen and right on display in the middle of everything where people of all walks of life can access them, not just the "keeps-to-himself-cronic-masterbater-fan-boys". Boarders aint to shabby with the trades either, but Virgin is a gem. Comics will never die so long as people can make marks, but we can only hope this trend of super-hero for kids shit gets pushed to the back. I don't want to see them go because I still dig some of them, but damn its refreshing to find something thats not about people in tights beating on each other the way only people in tights can. Save that shit for WWF. Comic Book Ubber Alles!
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Aug 16, 2001 4:47:29 PM CDT
Rob Liefeld has ALWAYS sucked, and my "Rob is a prick" story
by sethshandor
First thing I ever saw of Liefeld's was a spider-man annual with a cross-over by She Hulk. I thought, wow, this is shitty. From then then on I saw him grow in popularity and enventual derision. But I have ALWAYS ragged on his art, as have many others not just the last four years (I remember Peter David had a contest in Comics buyer's Guide, where people sent in all the drawings Rob had ripped off of other books without crediting them). Hey, to each their own style, I just hated his. NOW, Chicago comi-con, I forget the year. Image was still in it's infancy, and frankly I couldn't care, althoug I enjoyed the MAXX and some Spawn stuff. Minding my own business, checking out some back issues. Some prick shoves me from behind. Hard. WTF? I turn around and it's Rob Liefeld. He's literally pushing people around, making way for a guy in a Bedrock costume (his is before he became Badrock because the flintstones sued). He was wild eyed with awe at his own creation in a shitty foam and spandex suit, ordering people out of they way, as he commented, "Aw, yeah, look at it!!!" Fuck you prick.
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Even if his legs look more like ripening gourds than thighs, you have to hand it to him. He gets knocked down and keeps on going. Compared to a lot of emerging artists today he can't compare, but what was being produced at the time when he was at Marvel wasn't pretty, and he was a step in a new direction. Sure his stories are about as crisp as his anatomy, and I have yet to see him illustrate a background that isn't just a solid or gradiated color, but you have to admire him for always coming back. He sucks and keeps on going. On the opposite spectrum we have Joe Madureria. Joe is a great artist, but I'd love to piss on every video game that son of a bitch owns. Madureria is a douche nozel. I loved his work, couldn't wait to see more. But I have no respect for him as an artist and will never buy anything produced by him again. Maybe I shouldn't direct my spite at him, but should instead point it at Squaresoft for sucking him into Final Fantasy 7 right around the time Battle Chasers came under way. Its a shame to see his talent go down the shitter because of video games (its true, look at old issues of Wizard magazine with interview with him, bastard is sucking the nipples on the under-belly of video game consoles). Liefeld may not be pretty but he atleast makes the others look good.
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I am so dissapointed that I missed the Jack movie. If anyone could send me a copy email me at swaystar@hotmail.com Im willing to pay money for it. Thanks!
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Aug 16, 2001 7:12:15 PM CDT
Let he without comics in bags cast the first backing board
by cesspoolinferno
Interesting theory I must admit. Definitely adds some weight to what I otherwise considered to be a so-so episode. The collector mentality in comics came along around the time that Todd McFarlane was on his now legendary run of Amazing Spider-Man. People thought they could become rich by investing in comics by either buying up back issues or buying multiple copies of a title. Comic shops were more than happy to cater to this particular delusional practice since they were the ones who most benefitted from it. Once companines like Marvel saw that hot artists were a way to market comics, they were willing to promote and hype artists like Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld. Heck, even Sam Keith and Jae Lee were hot for about 15 seconds back then. Hot artist were given their own books, like X-Force and X-Men. And then came Image Comics and blah blah blah. The worst example of the collector mentality had to be DC Comics' Death of Superman, superhyped and polybagged for your convenience. Let's not forget that the collector's mentality extended to trading cards and action figures as well. And of course you had Wizard magazine as the official cheerleader for this whole mentality. If the woolly elephant beings resembled anyone, it should have been Jeff Smith who created Bone which is probably the best comic book of the last ten years.
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Reverse Tweety-Bird bodies is what he draws. Badly at that. He was supposed to be at a friend of mine's covention years ago when he was hot(1989-1990.) and the fucker never showed because he went to a ball game instead and left all those kids who worshipped him high and dry. They were bummed and the show promoter was pissed that he'd let his fans, the ones that put him on the map, down. What an asshole!
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Aug 16, 2001 10:50:49 PM CDT
Chastain86: Liefield over Mignola? You are smokin' some SERIOUS
by superhero
How you could ever write that Liefeld is better than Mignola in any way, shape or form is beyond me! Mignola's work is pure ART! It's beautifully laid out and his storytelling, mood, and movement are fantastic if not to say COMPLETELY original. Liefeld's work, on his BEST day, resembles the scratch marks of a four year old. NO knowledge of anatomy, NO pace, NO mood, NO storytelling skill, NO feeling whatsoever. He is a HACK with drive that just happened to believe his own hype and it took him down hard. He represents the absolute worst comics has EVER had to offer. The only way that I can explain his success is that his style was SO mind numbingly simple and static that any fool could look at it and appreciate it like they would a smiley face decal. Please do not try and compare pop trash with Mignola's true pop ART. Mignola IS a genius and Liefeld just stands on the shoulders of geniuses and hopes that it can make him look good. Oh, and not to mention the fact that Mignola is actually very humble and friendly not to mention a consummate PROFESSIONAL.
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...while I think the comic book angle is possible (the little guys did seem like collectors) I would like to think the more obvious and important message of the episode was the ugly way one race or species abuses, subjugates and uses another for its own purposes. (The little blue guys mentioned how their treatment of the woolys was not so different from the treatment of horses.) I recall that Jack offered food to that Thundarr horse in the movie after it had been whipped. This character, in my view, is being protrayed as humanitarian and that's a nice touch for a cartoon. (Also, to pipe in about comics, as a life long fan I like to read 'em. Polybags, CGC and the like is just absurb, and meaningless).
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Aug 17, 2001 5:33:28 AM CDT
BATMAN+WIZARD MAGAZINE+IMAGE COMICS= The downfall of comics as t
by atomoprime
1989 brought Tim Burton's BATMAN. Warner's decides to make a 'serious' film after Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS racked up huge numbers and was noticed by the news media. This caused interest in comics to increase to a level it had not seen in over a decade. Comics became a recognized art form outside of its fan base and a hot property for movies and television. It was the beginning of the
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Hi All,
This is my first time writing to AICN, but I have been reading for some time. First off, I must say that "Samurai Jack" is a breath of very fresh air when it comes to cartons. There are so few good shows in general to watch on TV, but finding a gem of an animation is incredible and makes one think that the world is not all bad. : )
On to my comic comments. I've been into comic since the early 70's. I would love the stories and art and used to pick up books because I loved reading about my favorite heroes. As a young child you wrap yourself into the world of make-believe of comics.
So one time I was angered and horrified when I was working at a special convention (the special traveling X-men shows) in Los Angeles and I saw what a true asshole really looks like, in the skulking form of "Jim Lee". I was working the line, making sure everyone was in place to the table of artists and writers. Well, Wilhce Portacio (sp?) saw that this little boy had a copy of one of his books and told me to let the young boy come over and have him sign it. Wilche was at the end of the line of tables and the line of fans crossed from his side to the other. So I let the young boy under the ropes and Wilhce began signing his book. Jim Lee from the other side of the table jumped up out of his seat, stormed over and pretty much screamed at this little boy about moving to the tables for autographs. Wilche didn't say anything. I did feel he was a coward for not standing up to Jim. I wanted so much kick Jim Lee's a*? (he deserved it, and that little boy was probably fucked up for the rest of his life - I know I wouldn't forget it if I was him).
Jim Lee even stiffed me for my copy of X-Men 248 that he was supposed to sign and send back to my house. It was my copy that I brought. I didn't get anything for helping with the show other than some lame freebie items, and the jerk didn't have time to sign books for those of us that worked the show for him. I don't give a crap how good he thinks he is, he had no right to treat that little boy like that.
Needless to say, I was pretty pissed at the friend of mine that said it was be "awesome" to work at the show with these guys.
"I hope the language isn't too harsh in my message."
Frank -
I happen to be a comic fan AND a woman. I've only been to one convention and while I admit I didn't see many other women there I don't think it's entirely reflective of comic book readers.
Most estimates I've seen are that 15% of comic readers are female. This depends on the title, of course. There are a lot of comics that are obviously designed to appeal mainly to men-all those "Playboy,"-like "bad girl" comics, for example. I prefer superhero or fantasy comics such as Batman, various X-Men titles, Buffy, and Aria.
Also, the "Samurai Jack," movie was very cool but I probably will keep forgetting to watch the episodes on Monday nights. But it's cable so I'm sure they'll be repeated sometime on the weekend. -
That is the best, break down of what went wrong with the comic industry I've ever read.--
I worked for a comic publisher in the early nineties, with the hopes of someday having creating my own comics. Seeing the business side of comics, the creation of the Collector comics, prestige formats driving up the costs, the lack of originality in the artwork (Everyone had to have that same Liefeld/Lee style), lack of good storytelling,by 1996 I couldn't even continue collecting comics, let alone draw them. I started collecting comics in the late sixties. I have read every comic I ever purchased, usually several times. I credit my mother for making me take such good care of my books, her raising me to take meticulous care of my belongings made it possible for me to still have some of the first comics I ever got. I feel so sorry for the kids who don't get that comics should be read and shared. I still have my collection, and occasionally I'll pull out a Magnus, Robot Fighter, and I remember what was good about comics. -
Not that I would disagree with that assessment of Liefeld, but that's what he became, not what he started out as. Seriously, his pre-x-force stuff (especially pre-new Mutants stuff) wasn't bad, and showed a lot of promise.
He just got lazy, instead of getting better. -
Serialization isn't bad. Serialization in expensive pamphlets is.
Japan's comic industry is, AFAIK, in a bit of a slump, but it's still bigger than the US's ever was.
I don't think the 2 dollar phonebooks would be doable in the US. Well, maybe whoever is publishing Disney stuff nowadays, or Archie could do it, and branch out from there by gradually introducing new titles. But nothing else has the recognition to sell enough copies.
The 3 to 5 dollar (at recent exchange rates) paperback-novel sized collections, however...that could work if they would hit the fucking paperback racks in the supermarkets, and regular bookstores.
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I was at the Pittsburgh ComiCon several years ago and Leifeld was there. I have never EVER liked this bastard's "art", for total lack of a better word. I was at the booth next to his chatting with Howard Porter (he draws an indredible Batman, btw) and glanced over at Leifeld's table. I made a comment about how horrendous Robby's art is to a friend of mine and he looked up at me, then whispered something to his bodyguard/lover/bitch-boy/Steve-Dave/whatever who was standing behind him. Well Bitch Boy glared at me....didn't take his fucking eyes off of me. I laughed at him and went about my business. I noticed that every time I passed Robby-boy's booth, Steve-Dave watched me the whole friggen time. I was walking down artist's row later, and Steve-Dave passed me the other way and glared at me. What the fuck was that all about?
On the other hand, I met John Byrne right around the time of his run on Wonder Woman and, he wasnt all that busy, and I had a great talk with him. I found him warm and funny, with some great stories to tell. I had always heard he was a major-league asshole (which I am quite sure he is), but I must have caught him on a good day, because that is one of my fondest convention memories. -
Wizard is an unbelievable shill. They're as bad as MTV, in telling you what you *should* like, instead of what's actually good. They have no friggin' clue. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that, a couple months back, they claimed that the new "Ultimate X-Men" comic by Mark Millar was BETTER than the original X-Men work done by Stan Lee. Forgive me, but that is a sin punishable by an immediate ticket into hell.*******And Erik Larsen? What a pisser. I burn with anger at the fact that, still, that moron gets a good deal of praise in the industry. "Artists don't need writers". Tell that to Alan Moore, or Grant Morrison, or Brian Bendis, or Greg Rucka, or any other of the best writers working in comics today. What a tool.*****Finally, my own theory is that comics "died" the day that the book "The Seduction of Innocence" was published (exact title?). Look at the parallel between Japan and the United States. In Japan, the artform was allowed to grow, and flourish, and even gain a modest degree of respect that remains to this day. In America, comics were forced to go underground, to stagnate, and while we rebounded with some great work later (by Stan Lee, and Kirby, etc.), if comics had been allowed the opportunity to grow here like they were in Japan, there's no telling where they would be today. At the least, I'd be willing to bet that comics would not be a "dying" artform.
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After reading this talkback, I just wanted to weigh in with something. Have ya noticed that there are some pretty decent books out there? I could prattle off a list (and I will at the end to spare most of you who couldn't give a rat's patoot), but you can bet that most of them: 1. do not say Marvel on the cover. 2. do not have an action shot on the cover. 3. do not cost less than $2.95 American. 4. do not have an Alex Ross cover (though his cover alone is worth any price of admission. ---> Sad to say, I missed this last week's ep (TWICE!) but Mr. Tartakovsky has shown evidence of many influences, including comics, manga, anime, etc. in the past, and it's a big part of why so many folks love everything he does. Sadly, Jack, like Dexter and the PPGs will have a limited life as most TV animation goes about 60 eps max before the studio pulls the plug for perpetual repeats (a la Nick, whom I still hate for canning Rocko's Modern Life that way while keeping that gawdawful Rugrats on ad nauseum). So enjoy it while you can, kids, and pray that guys like Dini and Tartakovsky will bring new blood into the field. ---> Now for that list I threatened earlier. If you're sick of that same old schtick, try: BONE by Jeff Smith. An excellent blending of animation techniques with the comic page that reminds me of Wendy Pini's pacing on ELFQUEST. Oh, and he writes a mean yarn too. STRANGERS IN PARADISE by Terry Moore. Sorta kinda a chick book, but Moore's characterizations will make you a believer in Soap Comix. ASTRO CITY by Kurt Busiek is sadly no longer with us, but it really turned the super-genre on its ear. Ditto for POWERS. A comic about a former hero who investigates crimes involving heroes. ---> Okay, I've ranted enough. Let someone else take over from here. 10-Q! ~pS~
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by the time the spawn and image craze hit and every comic was being drawn by a jim lee clone, i kept only my core DC and Marvel books and went straight into Valiant. It was such a breath of fresh air to see good art with GREAT storytelling. I remember reading x-men and spawn and the rest of the image crap, and knowing what was happening to comics. foil covers, polybags, 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1a bagged, 1a bagged black - u get the idea.
I havent bought a comic in 7 years and dont miss it one bit.
give me the 80's x-men, daredevil, and amazing spider man any day over what is out now. -
What is this crap about Joe Madureira doing Final Fantasy 7, Squaresoft has never hired an American artist to do any of the Final Fantasy series. Besides, Joe would have been still attached to Marvel doing X-Men while FFVII was in production until February 1997 when it was released in Japan so Square would have no interest in an artist whose contract is with a company who licenses its products to one of Square's chief rivals Capcom.
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Is a pretentious, boring, piece of crap.
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Look, I'm going to admit, I don't really want to read everyone's comments on this, but as I pass by the responses, I See names like McFarlane, Liefeld, and Marvel popping up everywhere. You guys are obviously missing the point.
Before I go on to get attacked by any one pretenious comic geek-by the way, you guys who think you have the right, don't. Until comics begin to be taken seriously as any kind of art form, sit, read your books, and stay calm. You're not going to make things better by blaming Marvel for everything.
I'm currently an employee of Archie comics (don't laugh. it's a stepping stone before I take over the world) and also graduated from the Kubert School of Art (I'm not trying to say I know everything by this, but I've been around the block and have seen the industry from many sides.) The thing is this, (I missed Samuari Jack) but if this thought on the death of comics is true, don't get angry, make a difference.
See, comics as a whole are generally poorly advertised. If you want people to read your stuff, what do you do? You promote it. Yes, Marvel flooded the market with crap, yes they put books on the shelf to run the small guys out of town, but did they advertise? No.You can't make a crappy toy line, and get a "hot" artist to do your thing and expect the best. You have to get out there and make people like your stuff again.
Unfortunatley, comics are dying out, and the art, the love... the magic, it's disappearing as well, bt there's a business side to everything. You can't blame video games, you can't blame cartoons, or Rob Liedfeld, you have to blame the companys, and the people who run them who don't give a rats butt. Trust me, I see this every day at work. You wanna see how the industry is killing itself, study Archie for a day. You'll laugh, then cry, then hang yourself from the GW Bridge. Making a Kick ass X-Men movie isn't going to save them. People need to step up, and take a swing. It's like this in film, right all you movie geeks? INDIE FILM. INDIE BOOKS. These are the people who care (for the most part) and do it for the art and for the love. They know what has to be done to make thier thing work. These are the people who need to be in some control.
Anyway, I think that's it for now. I gotta run. Archie calls. Oh, by the way, Rob Liefeld... he may not be a great artist, but you can NOT deny the man's love for the medium. He loves comics. He did his best, and even though it may have been misdirected at times, but his heart was in the right place. He's not a bad guy, just a little un-buisness savy. I'm not saying he needs to be in charge, or that I even like his stuff, but these are the facts kids. If I missed anything, call me on it. I'm a little scatter-brained at the moment. Must be too much Jughead...
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