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Must-Read STAR TREK: NEMESIS Script Review on Dark Horizons!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Greetings, traumatized Trekkies! HREF=mailto:robogeek@robogeek.com>ROBOGEEK here with a link to some online enlightenment.
(And yes, that red "Spoiler!" badge on the front page above this article's headline does indeed mean there are major spoilers herein.)
It's rare that we send our readers to another site for a script review, but every once in awhile there's something so dead-on brilliant we feel obligated to bring it your attention as a public service.
Last month, I had the opportunity to read the STAR TREK: NEMESIS script, but after perusing the first few pages, I could only stomach skimming those that remained. The whole thing just struck me as horribly, horribly wrong.
However, after reading Moriarty's far-too-nice review of the script a month ago (no offense, Professor, but steer clear of the Kool-Aid), I've felt a nagging obligation to eventually go back and read through the entire script myself, and write a counter-review.
Thankfully, Captain Kronos over on Dark Horizons saved me the trouble today. He's written an excellent, insightful, and articulate review of the script - and I honestly don't know if I could have done better. His opinions mirror mine uncannily (given the knowledge I have of the script), and I wish I could shake his hand.
This isn't some whiny fanboy complaining that Riker should become Captain of the Enterprise instead of the Titan... or that (the irrationally-demoted) Worf should be the Enterprise's new first officer instead of some random new character... or that Picard should be an admiral instead of Janeway... or that Romulans shouldn't just have telepathic abilities all of a sudden... or that if you're going to involve Romulans, you'd better wrap up the Spock and Sela plot threads... or that what's-his-name can't die because he was in "All Good Things"... (though all of these are valid complaints). No, this is astute, intelligent criticism - and the powers-that-be at Paramount should take heed.
I mean, if you were running Paramount...
Wouldn't you want to do something about the fact that no STAR TREK movie in the last fifteen years has grossed $100 million domestic?
Wouldn't you question the logic of having the next TREK film be about a villainous clone - even while George Lucas' STAR WARS: EPISODE II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES will be in theaters months earlier?
Hmmm...
CLICK HERE TO READ CAPTAIN KRONOS' REVIEW OF THE "STAR TREK: NEMESIS" SCRIPT ON DARK HORIZONS!
And then knock yourselves out in Talk Back. Maybe someone's listening.
- Robogeek
CLICK HERE TO READ CAPTAIN KRONOS' REVIEW OF THE "STAR TREK: NEMESIS" SCRIPT ON DARK HORIZONS!
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i'm not even a real trekky, i'm just a fan. and it just better be changed. That sounds HORRIBLE!!!
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Sounds like a winner to me, now if they'll only break down and give Picard a toupe, then this film will be dy-no-mite!
*shuts down the sarcasm warp-core and shakes his head at Paramount* -
Data sings ,Ryker plays his trombone , ...What more do fans want!Although a bit of action might be nice.It sounds like this one's going to be in the can for $3,000,000 tops.Theyre really going out with a bang!
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Aug 15, 2001 12:05:49 PM CDT
and then knock yourselves out in Talk Back. Maybe someone's list
by craphole
Heh...nobody's listening
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"He's written an excellent, insightful, and articulate review of the script - and I honestly don't know if I could have done better."
Harry "Humility" Knowles strikes again. -
when I heard that it was gonna be non inbred trek writers and directors handling the chores. BUT alas it looks like they have things FUBAR here. Logans work may owe more credit to Franzoni than previously imagined. Sad becuase Trek really does deserve a 100 million dollar epic. They bleed this franchise so much and put nothing in it's A-mayonaise-ing. In the end we simply want an epic style story that is thought out. They do a Data centric story and bring a "data Clone" then make a stupid clone version of Kahn and are too GOD DAMNED!!!!!! stupid to realize Lore IS their Khan???? Spiner is awesome so let him go out and let him do it as two different characters. A non aging villain Lore and a new improved bio enhanced Data. Some crap like that against the Romulan war backdrop and now we got a party. Get one JUST ONE a list actor as a bad guy! I mean c'mon Ahnuld can do Collateral Damage and Hopkins can do Titus but these guys can't be talked into a Star Trek outfit? Then land a director/writer who knows what the hell he's doin! In the end my dream team would be Alex Proyas Harlan Ellison but I'd take Cameron or Besson. Hell any A LIST science fiction guy. C'mon get with the program or you're gonna lose your franchise!!!
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sounds even worse than ST five. Why can't paramount have the crew face something REALLY nasty, some armarda of planet-eating insects, and they sacrifice themselves and their ship to destroy the hive. Come on people, kill the crew!!! Or at least the crew members that don't show up in All Good Things... oh... darn... wiat a sec? data was in All good things... head hurts... damn you Berman!
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This seems to be a rather persistent problem on talkback. Very few people seem capable of comprehending that Harry doesn't write it all. This particular article was Robogeek's. If you're going to insult someone, at least wait for them to actually earn it, impatient bastiges ;
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What the hell is going on here. All those numerous references to other movies, is there any creativity left in this franchise or what. See, I keep thinking to myself: Why the hell are they re-hashing pieces of old movies, if not to (in some way) pay hommage to them. Why the hell, I ask you, do they need to do that. From the review, the movie sounds horrible, and like so many others, I really had some high hopes for this one. Of all the Star Trek movies, First Contact is still my favorite. Which has me thinking once again: I disagree totally with the reviewer and with RoboGeek. What is needed for the Star Trek franchise is indeed to get new blood, but not to revert to the old Star Trek. If anything, this franchise needs to progress forward, past all the techno-garbage that always saves the day, past the conveniences that always have the Enterprise as the closest ship that can save the day. What is needed is to make Star Trek truly character driven, and not have the characters conveniently have some dialogue only between showing off the new ships or the new weapons etc. The thing I most liked about First Contact was the transformation of Picard from this noble Capt., into someone whose quest for revenge knew no bounds. You might be saying "But what about Star Trek II....," to which I have to say, it was done much better in First Contact. This is just my opinion of course, but I think the point has been made. Most people will say that Star Trek II was the best movie of the franchise, and I wouldn't argue with that, simply b/c it is only an example of what I think Star Trek needs to do once again.
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Harry, From the guy who criticized Drudge for ruining the ending of Planet of the Apes, for you to go an write this commentary about Star Trek: Nemesis without warning that you were going to reveal plot elements was just ANNOYINGLY WRONG!! I didn't want to know all these details. I was just curious what this subject was about, but I have tried to steer clear of story information. Now, I feel like you've not only ruined some of the surprise for me, but have commit the crime that YOU YOURSELF had bashed another website-mogul for breaking. Please, next time you start tossing off elements of a film before it's even been filmed, just tag a warning on it before hand. CeeWulf, www.sheridanrealm.com/Movies
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why do the Trek films always have to have some mega-villan with an evil plan? Sure STII was great, but come on, don't we get enough super-evil baddies in the Bond films, M.I. films, and damn near every other adventure/sci-fi flick ever made? I know I just answered my own question, but still, it would be nice to see a thoughtful Trek movie that actually resembled Trek...
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How can they come face to face with a Romulan-made clone of Picard and make no mention of the fact that PICARD WAS ON FREAKING ROMULUS DURING THE SERIES?!?!? Remember, the Reunification episodes with Spock? Picard, Data, and Spock were in Romulan custody, it should have been no problem to get DNA from him. There's your perfect justification for a Picard clone that also pays some respect to the series. Then again, a clone is a horrible idea when you have Lore, Q, Sela, and a host of other memorable villains from the series that would be more than an match for the crew and make for an exciting film. But Berman wants to go down as the Great Creator, so we get Shinzon, who sounds like a type of Chinese cuisine. Dammit, just do the Romulan/Federation war and watch this thing make $60 million opening weekend.
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INSURRECTION was the first ST movie of the nine that I didn't go see in the theaters. I just wasn't that interested. I had enjoyed FIRST CONTACT well enough, but the storyline seemed tired. When I finally got around to seeing it on video THIS YEAR, I discovered that I was right. Now, after reading about this new one, I think I'm going to have to skip this one as well. Too bad, really.
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All I ever hear is its not like the original series. Cry, Cry, Cry.
Face it. With the exception of a few episode The Original Series sucked. They were corny.
I have loved everything Berman has done and I can't wait for the new movie and Enterprise. I hope its nothing like TOS. -
To be fair, the link to the review on Dark Horizons DOES mention that there are spoilers in the review, and anyway, why would you expect a script review that Moriarty says goes into detail NOT to have spoilers?
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After a thorough reading of this script, several plot points seemed to show signs of weakness, albeit nerd-endowed. For example:
-Excess use of fuzzy hand puppets as cast members
-Completely superfluous gross-out scene involving Worf, masturbation and a couple of tribbles.
-Needless foray into cross-culturing with an inane -
I haven't cared about Trek since Insurrection, and this script isn't going to change that. Why is it that when it comes to science fiction, sheep shit like this gets made while Harlan Ellison's script for I, Robot rots in a drawer somewhere.
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I wasn't referring to the review on Dark Horizons, I was referring to the intro that Harry gave before presenting the link to the review. However, there was a little graphic on the mainpage which I hadn't noticed. But, there wasn't any indication on the following page that Harry was going to reveal details of the story. I just got annoyed, but I probably should have seen the small red graphic prior. CeeWulf, www.sheridanrealm.com/Movies
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The review sounded pretty clear-headed, but I think if the writer spent more time expanding on why Berman's not the man for the series instead of constantly bashing him -- he could have gotten to his point more efficiently.
Instead, he complains that it's not like the "old series". Ahem? The old series wasn't timeless, friends. In terms of science fiction it made leaps and bounds -- but the style of the shows and the incredulity of some of it would not fare with today's audience. Why even mention the old series?
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Aug 15, 2001 1:22:51 PM CDT
Where is the damn SPOILER WARNING on here?!?! Robogeek what is
by bregalad_
Please don't pull a Matt Drudge here. PUT A DAMN *SPOILER* WARNING HERE>>>> Now everybody knows that Data dies. C'mon.
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Aug 15, 2001 1:31:13 PM CDT
What the hell do you call that bright red "SPOILER!" badge on th
by robogeek.com
Jeez, it's bad enough some of you don't even pay attention to who's actually writing the stories on AICN. Criminy...
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Trek has sucked since Berman got rid of Kirk and Spock.
The only thing we have to look forward to is the TMP dvd. -
Aug 15, 2001 1:37:43 PM CDT
Just put Star Trek to sleep Paramount, for the love of Roddenbur
by gabba-uk
Its time to 'rest' the franchise and keep it rested for a very long time. Star Trek in its heyday ie when Gene was still alive, rocked in a MAJOR way! But since then we've had the likes of Babylon 5 and Farscape come onto the scene and show us all just how to do good TV sci-fi and in comparison to those two shows Star Trek has got weaker (with DS9 as a possable exception). First Contact was the last two hours of great trek because it was the continuation of TNG's finest moment 'The Best of Both Worlds', and I don't think it will improve untill someone with fresh idea's is put in charge of Trek once again
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Aug 15, 2001 1:42:03 PM CDT
Dear AICN: I want to take a moment to intruduce you to a wonderf
by tequila wyrm
...that's when you let people know IN ADVANCE that you plan on ruining a film for them by anouncing every single surprise that's in the script.
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I'm not complaining at all though, because they had good spoilers warning before the article. I think the whole "franchise" just really really needs to take a break for a couple of years. I mean, did they even think this one through, or just figure it was time to release another movie, and that neither DS9 or Voyager had created sufficient impact on North American culture (beyond the traditional SF fan base). I think I can make a strong case for the latter with one simple statement: How can getting cloned make you a telepath? (Of course, I haven't read the script, my source is simply the review).
I think they've really run out of things to say. The best Star Trek plagiarized (lovingly) some of the best SF novels and short stories, and actual Scientific Theories. The worst, I think, became space soap operas (like the last few seasons of DS9). Voyager had the premise for getting the ship back to the tradition of the "at the end of the episode, everything goes back to normal, and they're ready for a new adventure". But, partly due to some poor casting and mostly due to having already explored most SF themes only a few years ago in Next Generation, the series became too much like Gilligans Island in space (I always used to bug my Voyager loving friend by asking her "Remember that great episode where they almost made it back to Earth?"
Oh well, I wish they would let Star Trek sleep for a while until they had something interesting to say with it. However, there's money to be made, and if I were a Paramount shareholder, I would be wanting to see Star Trek pimped out as much as possible. Us geeks buys tickets!
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This film deals w/the Romulans and Spock is not in it? What the fuck is that all about. How the hell does Berman sneak Janeway in this piece of shit and not even mention Spock? Berman doesn't get it NOBODY FUCKING CARES ABOUT DS9 AND VOYAGER. Why does Berman hate tos but love those two shitty shows(Ds9 and Voy) that killed the series?
FUCK NEW STAR TREK GET RID OF BERMAN AND BRING BACK KIRK AND SPOCK I DON'T CARE HOW OLD THEY ARE. -
Well, if that is what they shoot then the series is dead. I've stopped seeing these in the theaters after "Generations". Actually, I saw "First Contact" at a dollar theater and thought i got my money's worth. Where in the name of all that is good is the long rumored "Civil War" script? I thought the idea, starting back before the idiotic "Insurrection", was to have the Federation be torn apart by civil war with the Enterprise as outlaws. From the rumors it was dark, serious, and totally kick ass. Any idea what happened?
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ANDROMEDA. FARSCAPE. A brand-spankin' new BABYLON 5 series coming up. VANDRED. TRI-GUN. LOVE HINA. FURI KURI (aka "anime on acid"). INUYASHA. And of course, the incomparable noir that is COWBOY BEBOP. This list ain't even the tip of the iceberg, folks. TREK died a long time ago IMOHO; so why get upset about the rotting corpse? There's plenty of other, far better things to watch.
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i never thought id see the day when someone made a sequel worse then highlander II, but today i have
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Cue ball and the PC bunch suck so bad, they are the worse of the Trek spawn. Why do they continue to torture us with suck-ass movies?? Gimme Trek Classic anyday, thank you!
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This isn't a Kirk is better than Picard rant, I just believe that the orignal trek crew was more suited to feature films. The original series episodes were self contained little morality plays. You could watch any one out of context and follow everything that was happening. Because of this, the charachters were drawn as archetypes. They weren't complex people, they just stood for very clear things -- Kirk the man of action, Spock the man of reason, Bones the man of skepticism. This made it easier to plug them into an epic, action-oriented story and have their characters function in the same manner they did in the show. TNG, however was more of a soap opera, an ongoing melodrama that followed many story threads over the course of a season. This made the charachters more complex, but caused problems when trying to adapt them to the big screen. Picard fared well, as did Data and Worf to a lesser extent, but all the other supporting charachters end up being interchangeable. The dynamic of the new crew just doesn't spark as well in movies as the original crew did, which is why I think First Contact is about as good a Trek movie as we're likely to see.
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I'm depressed. Not simply over ST:X - the whole Star Trek 'thing' is in danger of imploding. The wider depression for me is with the genre. It's as if producers and writers (including Lucas) have thrown up their arms and said "OK - All of Science Fiction has been covered already - let's just have some *fun* now and pay playful respects. (EG: Piss on the great writers who fashioned these visions of a future we all too easily take for granted!) Remember how they used to like 50's pulp shows? Give 'em some new ones!! (Yay Flash!) Oh and how they liked the whole 'dark' Kahn thing, and the machinations (oops, maybe they wouldn't say that word) of the evil Romulans? Let's do that too! Hey clones are in vogue, let's have a few of them to add spice and techno-freakyness!"
So logic is thrown out of the window (for a show once proud to push logic to the forefront of wisdom and intelligent (even Humane) exploration *sheesh*) with Yoyager, then Enterprise, and now the movie. I wish Majel Barret-Roddenberry would disown Rick Berman's 'McTrek' branding with it's 'new Happy Akira-class toy meal' and 'Romulan McDonald Clone surprise' movie deal.
The franchise needs new minds, with the respect to the original writers and the maturing/demanding audience while having the ability and vision to move everything onward (or backward, sideways, mirrored) because good SF will always be with us as long as we dream what can be - or to paraphrase a master "The Shape of things to come."
-RooBarb the high, hard and mighty. -
...as long as Berman keeps his paws off it.
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Nobody has mentioned that Nemesis was the name of a fan created movie project profiled in the hilarious 1997 documentary, Trekkies. The fan that received the most camera time in the documentary (Gabriel?) had worked on a script and some computer graphics on his circa Windows95 PC. Coincidence? Certainly the script reads like bad fan fiction.
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just have WILLIAM SHATNER in it, doing anything at all, would make it better than the shite with the bald guy. hell let's just have shatner fucking one of them green bitches for two hours. that'd be better than that new generations shite.
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Aug 15, 2001 3:26:12 PM CDT
The REAL reason no STAR TREK movie in the last fifteen years has
by sethshandor
Because it's geeky! Like it or not "Star Trek" has become synonymous "dork." It's because of trek's greatest strength, also it's weakness, the fans (the obsessive ones, not us joe blows, the freaky ones the news networks always seems to dredge up). I know people who enjoy the occasional trek, but aren't going to really talk it up because of the negative conotation. Star Wars was the "cooler" sci-fi trip to be in on, until Phantom menace, now it's not hip anymore either. Regardless of quality, more people would see a shit Matrix sequel (no judgements cast on reloaded just using an example here), than an outstanding Star Trek one. Trek has an uphill battle. It's not right. It just is. Frankly, I'd be more embarassed to say I saw Coyote Ugly, or Armageddon, or Bring it On. But guess what people in the theater line will talk about? "Did you see Bring it on? Auh ma Gawd that was so awesome! Like, Coyote ugly-type awesome!"
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Obviously this guy hates Star Trek because everyone I have talked to says the script is terrific. I have to admit that Insurrection is by far one of the worst Treks out there. However, it's no worst than Star Wars Episode One, The Phantom Shitter! All I can say is that Voyager sucked dogs balls, but TNG totally FUCKING RULES! Hell, what's with today's science fiction fans? First they bitch about Episode II's title, Attack of the Clones, and no this bullshit! It all sounds like childish whining to me!
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Did I watch totally different sereis to you? Read a different script synopsis?
I have been a ST fan for the last 20 years, always will be, and my favourite series is *gasp* DS9.
Berman is not the fucking antichrist, although I grant you that recently he has made some mistakes. Voyager never got going for me and Generations was a waste of celluloid.
First Contact is my favourite ST film (and 70% of folks I ask agree). Insurrection was just misplaced - a great double episode but ill suited for a cinema outing, however considering that I am a fan of the TV show this is no personal problem. TNG undenably improved when GR handed over the reins.
There are plenty of problems in ST today but non greater than your attitude. Most takes on this script are that, a few issues aside, it has great potential. Check the mindless cynicism, and the idea that your ideas are the only right ideas, at the door please. -
... is the new Director's cut of TMP !! Now THAT is a movie ... Also, even/odd : well, the directing of ST:III is a HELL of a lot better than either II or IV IMnotsoHO... I agree with the reviewer, every TNG movie so far has been crap. I only watch them for nostalgia of TOS, which I used to like, ooooooh, twenty plus years ago...
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I am truly horrified. This is so bad that it can only be contstrued as either 1.) a nasty prank or 2.) rank malice and hatred.
This is so bad, surely Paramount would realize that they will lose money out of their asses from this.
I have been a Star Trek fan for about 15 years or so...and it really has been heartbreaking to see what Berman and his gang have done to such an awesome, fun phenomenon.
This is really painful. I can't believe that Patrick Stewart and some of the others would lower themselves. It's downright embarassing, really. Even if you know nothing about Trek or couldn't care less, who would want to be associated with this kind of mess.
The best Star Trek I have witnessed in recent times have been the Garfield Reeves-Stevens DS9 books and the 86 collaborations with Shatner. Read those, folks, to remember what makes Star Trek great.
Berman and his ilk clearly have nothing but contempt and hate. I wish Majel would step up and put her foot down on this. Surely between her and the clout of some of the other old crew, this mess could be put to a stop.
Between this and Berman's blatant attempt to re-write Trek history in his own image...can anyone stop this?!?! -
Aug 15, 2001 4:18:50 PM CDT
As long as Wil Wheaton doesn't pop up in Whoopi Goldberg's cabin
by liquidnitrate
20 years ago Paramount had a real chance for this franchise thanks to the emotionally-charged action-adventure of STII:WoK. Since then they've had only one genuine hit (Voyage Home) which pleased the public by making Star Trek accessible to the mainstream viewers by needling the geeky mythos in a Back to the Future way. Once the 90's arrived, Star Trek came to symbolize dork culture in a way that puts off "normal" audiences. The very second they notice their TV's come across a show starring people wearing alien makeup they change the channel to ANYthing better (like Sabrina or reruns of Meego.) Trekkies and the comic guy from Simpsons may find Data endearing but he's a total turnoff to the average suburban mall-bunny. They don't know the difference b/t Romulans and Ferengi and Earth Final Conflict, and don't care a rat's ass. Voyager, DS9, whatever, are ALL embarrassing nerd-cooties to everybody outside the pretentious self-impressed fanatical convention-going cult.
If Paramount sincerely expects to branch out the franchise into large grosses again, they're going to have to humble the franchise's own brand of geek factor and present a story that normal viewers can relate to, ala the Shatner era. I mean, look at what UA/Eon's done with 007. They've concentrated on the marketable aspects of sex-appeal and exotic high-tech violence, and told stories that the ADD Gameboy crowd can follow. That may be brain-squashing to purists, but it's a formula that's made LOTS of money. If this ever happened to Star Trek, the Trekkies would be irate with howls of protest, but for once the public might actually take interest in the ST franchise. -
I agree with Harry's fanboy whines at the end of his opening paragraph. There is just certain things that the fans expect and would love to see. There are just certain things that are "right" and "wrong"
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Insurrection blew chunks, now this crap, cmon, get SOME clue Paramount
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Screw it...this is one of the few times where I am rooting for the suits.
This isn't even about good Trek. Paramount, you can't afford to have another clunker on your hands.
Black and white...this is shit that wouldn't even float direct to video. Kill this monstrosity! -
Yes, Trek X sounds remarkably unfresh, despite bringing in John Logan. Oh well. Zathras was uneimpressed every time a spoiler was released about the movie. This will end the movie franchise for a decade. Sadly, it might not end Berman's career because........
the script to Broken Bow looks pretty good.
Herc didn't scoop it. Harry didn't put up the link. So here it is, if you want to be thoroughly and completely spoiled. This is the 5/1 edition of the script, and while a few things could change, the finished product should look pretty darn close to it.
http://www.btinternet.com/~harrymudd/imudd/BrokenBow.txt
Please let them hire some more dramatic music composers this time around. Trek music has had a tendency to suck the life out of any scene.
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THERE IS NO EVEN - ODD CURSE AT STAR TREK.
Nicholas Meyer was involved with Star Treks 2,4 and 6. He scripted and directed 2 and 6, and he co-scripted 4 (he wrote all of the story that occurred in the 20th century).
No superstition, no mojo, just plain hard facts.
Meyer brought out the true potential in the original crew.
Unfortunately, he has no interest in doing a TNG film, and Berman likely has no interest in handing over the creative reigns to him either.
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Aug 15, 2001 5:11:37 PM CDT
But the question remains: Can Riker still fit in one of those u
by smugbug
Kinda like John Travolta. With every movie, he's a wee bit wider. When you see repeats of TNG - ever notice how SLIM Riker looks? Just a casual observation..............other than that, I enjoyed the script review. It was good. And I agree, Berman is lame.
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I agree with Pizza the Hut. I want more DS9. Sure "Best of Both Worlds" was fun, but Trek was never better than when DS9 was taken by the Dominion and Sisko had to mount a counter offensive. I was really hoping STX would be great, but as long as Berman and Braga are in charge of Trek, we won't get great stories. And another thing, Brent Spiner wrote part of the script? And he's singing? Why do these ego-maniacal actors think we want to hear them sing? Brent, honey, just shut up and act. Same goes for Stewart. You idiots are actors, not writers. If you want to write, go back and earn it. You shouldn't force your opinions on others just because you can. That is pathetic.
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That movie kicked ass!!! Lee Marvin! Chuck Norris! Lets hear it! Yeah baby!!!!
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Jeezus CeeWulf...you're post is just pointless...if you don't want to read spoilers - it's simple: do not go to sights like this! Go to some generic previews page or something and quit whining! That goes for the rest of you "oh too many spoilers" losers out there!
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I meant "sites like this"...you spoiler whining freaks really get to me sometimes!
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No, seriously. At least time travel isn't involved. Right? Right??? You're not nodding. NOD, damn you!
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In essence, according to the review, Berman and company have re-created the best parts from all the prior ST and TNG films. This is a travesty for a franchise that prided itself on creativity. Worse yet, the needless humor was almost ALWAYS something I could do without, especially Data's. This series peaked with Wrath of Khan and again First Contact with some fairly dismal efforts in between. It will be anything but a merciful death if the script isn't doctored. Set phasers to melancholy, Number One. I'm Rabid Republican. This has been a public service announcement.
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Aug 15, 2001 7:41:11 PM CDT
What??? No damn TIME TRAVEL??? How can you have a crappy Trek m
by darth ranik
I want time travel! Time travel is the most over used shitty plot device you can possibly put into a Trek movie. If the pin-pricks and Paramount and Dick Berman are gonna ruin the fucking movie, at least put some fucking time travel in it! God, I thought you had the art of making shitty movies down to a fucking science. You guys need to call George Lucas for some pointers on making this a more shitty movie.
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Why not rip off other movies instead of other trek movies? How about a sci-fi defiant ones with Picard and Sisko together (we know they didn't get along, but how about now that Ben's enlightened?) Imagine all the yelling we'd get. Sisko and Picard can yell something cool. Why I hate to see the other cast under-used, a movie IS a movie, and you only have so much time, unlike a series. I do want to see more of Data and Picard than I do Riker, sorry Will. I used to think this would be a lame idea, but after Insurrection how worse can it be, but frankly I wouldn't mind a cut and paste of all series popular characters. Seven of nine and the doctor, Quark and Odo. We the hell not tag them along? Do I really need more Crusher screen time?
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Aug 15, 2001 8:16:45 PM CDT
Fuck you wimpy wussy faggots complaining about Spoiler Warnings!
by bari umenema
What a bunch of whiny crybaby pansy fags you wussy boys are! Jesus you make me want to vomit! No spoiler warning where's the spoiler warning oh boo fucking hoo! To quote William Shatner, GET A LIFE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!
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As a die hard Star Trek fan for many years, I've never gotten as upset over such trivial things as some of the people that have written on this board. To quote Bill Shatner on SLV, "Get a life!!!!!". If any of you can peel your bloodshot eyes away from your computer screens, you might realize that there is a world out there. It is filled with many great things, including girls. They are a great way to forget about your Star Trek, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars "problems". Get laid and then you might not worry about what the next Star Wars is named or how your pent up sexual frustration makes you hate Rick Berman so much. Good luck, get some stinck on your hang down, and remember they're only movies!
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PLEASE take control of this franchise AWAY from Rick Berman. He (& his tired stable of hacks) are suffering from an incredible case of creative fatigue. No, really.
While ST: DS9 tried something truly different, Voyager was an exercise in failed potential...Berman & Co. couldn't even be bothered to stick to the premise they introduced...it was just one nameless technobabbled episode after another with the stock "finding my humanity" character and the usual underused crew. Now comes "Enterprise", another show in the franchise that doesn't even bother to include the words "Star Trek" in it's title...now here's the chance for Berman's brain-bankrupted crew to undo everything that's been done and "dazzle" us with "firsts"...ooo, the first transporter....oooo, the first Kilingon & on & on. Ugh.
Now, we have the latest film featuring a cast that in seven seasons managed to put out many fine hours. They had their downtimes, but never so down as they have been at the movies. It's gone from tepid stuntcasting (Generations) to insipid humor & half-hearted morality plays (Insurrection) to, if this Dark Horizons story holds any truth, a string of hoary "Trek" cliche's that make anything on "Voyager" look like the most original piece of storytelling ever. Even the NG's movie high point(Frist Contact) was basically a rehash of stuff from the series with no new drama and a stock villianess to round it off.
It saddens one to think that Stewart & co. could have read this tripe and not laughed at how truly lame it is.
I'd rather not see another movie with the NG cast if THIS is the best they can come up with. Now, it's good to remember that not all the blame for this bad story is Berman's doing...like so much of what comes along form the big studios (and big stars) "Nemisis" reeks of actor interferance.
What ever happened to the idea of just having a good story involveing ALL the characters and having a flash of sense and originality? Ooops. We're talking "Star Trek" here. Oh well..... -
'Nuff said. If we all just used these words in some collective way to get through to Paramount, do you think it would work?
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Aug 15, 2001 9:35:21 PM CDT
Bari Umenema: I refuse to take an insult from someone that has n
by tequila wyrm
Especially since everyone knows that the "Colonoscopy" - has taken over as the prefered way of examining the large bowel. Geez, what a Loser.
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At last - the voice of reason. I, too, am an avid Trek 'geek' although I never had much time for DS9 and Voyager. But, truly, does it really matter.Yeh, some of the script seems pants but lets just see what happens. And if it does suck hard, I'll just forget about it and get on with the rest of my life. Its supposed to be entertainment folks and you don't really have to go see it....
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I must agree with the reviewer of the script...I began to feel optimism when they brught in a feature writer (John Logan) and then hired a feature dirctor (Stuart Baird) which gave a big signal: WERE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERNT...WE WANT TO DO A MOVIE!!!!! I'll be honest I was starting to get psyched to see this...Then....I read this review...I realised that that Rick Berman fingerprints are all over this crap fest...By the way Berman was NEVER a creative, story idea type of producer he was brought in for one reason and one reason only in 1987 to keep the show on budget and keep the production value high...Paramount remembers well what happened on the ST:PHASE II series with the squabbles between Roddenbery and Livingston (Well documented in Shatners Book by the way...) So Paramount (Pre-Viacommunist) brought in berman with a simple mandATE:KEEP COSTS UNDER CONTROL AND PRODUCTION VALUE HIGH SO THE MONEY CAN ROOL IN...See while TNG on TV had a cinematic quality (in part due to the woeful lack of competion) on the big screen TNG has been small in scope lacking any epic quality something TREKS I-VI did in abdundance...(ERGO: Right now TNN theyve been showing TREKS I-V while there hacked up and broken by commerical breaks at the most inopprtunte times theres onw thing thats certain they have a EPIC quality a FAETURE FILM pizass that mkes you whish you were back in the theatre watching on the BIG screen where they belong....) TNG Movies have never come close...GENERATIONS was pointless ST:FC contradicted everything that involved the borg (BTW ever wondered why the space battles suck donckey in FC simple $$$$$ or more important Berman trying to save $$$$$Its intresteing to note the space battle on B5:SEVERED DREAMS kicks First Contacts ass 8 ways to sunday...
). Insurrection was attempt at hiting the cash cow ala ST:TVH but missing the mark pretty badly...Now we have a lame attempt to jump start the car ala star trek II__________________________________________________________________________The reviewer pointed this out and i'll elaborate THIS FILM HAS NOT BEEN GREEN LIT!!!!! Meaning PARAMOUNT led by American's Number 1 Viacommunist Sherry Lansing KNOWS this frachise is in deep shit....So while I agree the script sucks there is still plenty of time to make wholesale changes (i.e. GET RID OF FUCKING BERMAN) and let Baird and Logan get down to business... -
Who on hell started this John Logan hype?! Hasn't anyone read what he did to the original drafts of Gladiator? This movie could have been so much better without the interference of this Logan guy.
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Aug 16, 2001 12:59:26 AM CDT
TREK might die in devolpment hell rather on the big screen and m
by 20th century fox
I just thought of that after reading my rant laden post...The fact this film is not green lit and the Viacommunsts fully aware that TEKs fan base is increasingly dwindling due to poor quality (One need only look at GALAXY QUEST and how that film was MORE exciting than the last THREE TNG films PUT TOGETHER..) I have a very sinking feeling that this movie may never get out of development hell....Maybe thats good perhaps trek should die or at the very least go into a deep sleep ala STAR WARS....Comments...
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Aug 16, 2001 1:26:04 AM CDT
Just wanted to say that I've decided to erase my password and us
by andy travis
Funny, I always thought it would be a Star Wars vs. Matrix talkback that would drive me to it. I suppose I just suddenly had an epiphany. So farewell. Good luck with all the whining and arguments to come...yours truly, Andy
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I bet the reviewer could have said all the exact same things but in an excited positive way and then you guys would all be creaming in your shorts. Give this film a chance. Oh, and whats wrong with writing 'looks like a scene from Alien.'? Sure that's not award winning writing, but it gives the director something to go on. Wake up! It'll be fine!
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Okay. I'm gonna rip this review to f*cking shreads.
"This is astute, intelligent criticism - and the powers-that-be at Paramount should take heed" Robogeek? This is quite possibly the most badly written review of anything I've ever read. I was expecting a blow by blow account of why the script doesn't work as a script. Instead I read a fanboy rant about tiny continuity details with the show. And even worse, most of the things he winges about make no sense!
Psychic Romulans? Well, there haven't been any seen before, but I don't recall any mention that they don't exist. And if Romulans share the same ancestory as the Vulcans, it makes sense to me.
The guy continues to whinge about the fact that the villain is new, and not from the series. But it's a feature film. To the majority of people who would see it wouldn't know if it was. And the universe is a big place. It doesn't make any sense for the crew to run into the same villans again and again.
I can't judge the script - I haven't read it. But I can be damn sure that there are better things to talk about than this. Is the dialogue good? Stuff that jumps out to me, even in the synopsis, like for what seems to be an action film, the first half is horribly slow, and there's a b plot. B plots rarely (if ever) work in cinema. A film script should be focused. This is where constructive, good reviewing should be coming from Robogeek, and not stupid and Rick Berman rants.
Stop being sheep people.
Phazer
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Phazer - worst review you've ever read? You obviously didn't read that Batman: Year One pile of dung that was on here a couple of day ago. Compared to that this Shakespeare....
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That was some of the worst Anti-Berman whining I've ever read. Stick to the facts instead of how you feel about Berman, or why you think something is a bad idea. Why does everybody sit around and complain about Berman as if Roddenberry was the Holy Grail of Sci-Fi. Here's a history lesson for you, Star Trek sucked until Berman took over. It was deep into camp, and relied too much on "wowing" us with the fact that they could beam or warp or seperate to saucer section then on actual story telling. I do have problems with the script actually refering to other movies and tv shows as a way of describing things, I feel that Star Trek should be the leader and it's originality should be the stuff that other movies are refering to in their scripts. But I'm extremely optimistic of this movie. It seems to have a good mix Hollywood movie and Star Trek movie, and despite the lame script review and the usual complainers in the talkback section, this movie will rock. Just cause I said so. Trek Lives!!!
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Well written, insightful, and peppered with liberal amounts of wit. Wow, I think I need to go to Dark Horizons more often......naaahhhh.*** Still, the flick does sound pretty shitty, although the B-9 part kind of intrigues me.
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I have been following the STAR TREK X thread for a while and most posts seem to agree that the next film should be dramatic, exciting, action-packed and also include an ounce of tragedy, many are alarmed by the "Best of Star Trek Hits" compilation-type script by John Logan (Genesis-like device, Cloaking technology, Death of a Major Character, Themes of Ageing, etc). Nevertheless, let us start on a positive track and mention the decent stuff : the hiring of Stuart Baird, who has doen solid work on nifty thrillers like EXECUTIVE DECISION and U.S. MARSHALLS, cinematographer Dante Spinotti (L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, LAST OF THE MOHICANS and THE INSIDER among many films) and scribe John Logan (GLADIATOR).
STAR TREK: NEMESIS contains the presence of a strong villain, albeit a Picard-clone, emphasis on outer space and theme not unlike ST II (John Logan's favorite Trek film and dare I say, most Trekkers too) Those are promising points nethertheless how they are handled, cinematically, and how the script filters out the routine, second-rate material, notably the Plot B Data/B-6 scenario will have much to do with the film's success. The reason the TOS films worked so well was that they were linear, the crew faced a threat, sometimes from withing, sometimes external, but the Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio was on the same Plot A scenario - they were not divided up into different subsections with their own little petty stories - that would have weakened those movies and therefore diminished their chemistry and conflict as a strong, emotional trio. The next generation movies usually have the standard Rick Berman TV Plot A/Plot B scenarios. For example, in FIRST CONTACT there were even 3 Plots simultaneously, one worked (Plot A, Picard versus the Borgs) and two did not (Plot B, Riker and Zephrame Cochrane on warp speed, Plot C, Data and the Bor Queen). The weakest out of the bunch was the Data sequences. They are the ones we fast forward when we watch FC on DVD. And the same applies to the Plot B, Data and the emotion chip crap on STAR TREK: GENERATIONS and the unbearable Plot B narrative featuring Data and the boy, with his little pet, on LOST HORIZONS,oh sorry, I mean't STAR TREK: INSURRECTION. Please modify the Data/B-6 rubbish on STAR TREK: NEMESIS. I anyone needs to die it has to be a real, human character, not a robot who downloads his "katra" on another - that's too Spock-like and it cheats the audience ("Data dies but he really doesn't folks, so lighten up", Paramount seems to be saying). And another thing, the Picard clone aspect of the script is another sympathetic Rick Berman villian (like Soran who wanted to be reunited with his dead wife and kids in ST:GEN and the baddies in need of plastic surgery in the shitfest INSURRECTION). This villain should not be sympathetic at all, if hes a Picard clone, then one cannot really root for his demise because he's a flawed copy of a beloved character. And another thing, how can one have a movie about Romulans without Ambassador Spock? Leonard Nimoy alone, the gimmick of hacing Spock in the movie, is an easy marketing gimmick and could be worth $20 million extra alone at the box office. SPOCK NEEDS TO BE IN THIS FILM.
In my opinion, the next film should NOT BE LIGHTHEARTED OR TRIVIAL. It should show the scars of time and age, they way ST II did, and it should be EPIC in scale. I am not a fan of Rick Berman. I believe that Berman has not honored the Star Trek film franchise the way a Harve Bennet, Nicholas Meyer or Leonard Nimoy have in the past. His films, apart from some set pieces in FIRST CONTACT, tend to be inconsequenetial, full of juvenile humor breats jokes, Picard doing the mambo, Worf singing Gilbert and Sullivan tunes, etc), shoddily edited and shot, making even the usually reliable Jerry Goldsmith scores sound tedious and sometimes even omitting music (I still cannot forget the climactic fight between Kirk and Soran in GENERATIONS that contained NO MUSIC AT ALL!) The Berman films also lack strong villains, drama or characterization. They are not 'event' films anymore.
This movie franchise, which has been the victim of creative and financial diminishing returns, needs experienced film people at the helm. It needs to REVITALIZE the Trek movie series after the dissapointing and downright infuriating INSURRECTION the way GOLDENEYE revitalized the Bond series. It needs fresh blood and bold ideas. BUT MOST OF ALL, PLEASE WORK ON THE SCRIPT, THE SCRIPT IS EVERYTHING. Paramount pictures must not skimp their resources on this one; they have a major franchise and they should not neglect it. Let them spend $80 to $100 million on the film, hire the best f/x houses, up the action ante, hire a well known and talented actor for the villain role (Alan Rickman, Geoffrey Rush, Jonathan Price) , and so forth. Give STAR TREK X everything. If it succeeds great, if it fails, well at least they gave it their best. If the quality of the film is subpar, they will end up with a $55 million gross (ST V) or a $70 million one (INSURRECTION). Audiences are not stupid. They know a good film when they see one and that is why the highest grossing Trek films were FIRST CONTACT ($90), STAR TREK IV (over $110 million), the others all made over $75 million - if you adjust those today in inflation they would be worth more than $90 million due to much higher ticket prices than those in '82, 84 or '91.
If STAR TREK X fails as a film, it could be the end of the Next Generation Trek movie franchise and then Paramount might have to look in their old dustbins for stuff like STAR TREK: STARFLEET ACADEMY (Freddie Prinze anyone?). Everything rests on STAR TREK X. I just hope Paramount and the producers know that. Give us a WRATH OF KHAN for this new millenium not a clone of that movie. We've waited long enough. -
Oh my GOD, there were SOOO many rip-offs from previous scripts---
Like when they were on a ship called "The Enterprise"? I mean come on, they've used that in at least several other Trek movies havn't they?
That just makes the movie total crap! -
We all keep talking about how Star Trek owes us something. Or how Hollywood needs to "finally" make more good Sci-Fi. Well, after talking to a friend of mine, I realized: they owe us nothing. There is really much more SF out there today than there was even 10 years ago, thanks in large part to Next Generation. Even if you have only basic cable, you can pretty much watch a SF show every night in reruns. If you don't have cable, you can at least watch a number of SF shows, like Dark Angel and X-Files on FOX.
Question: didn't this Berman guy give us the Borg, and effectively launch Next Generation a quantum leap forward? Unfortunately he was also the guy who humanized them and made them silly. Well, you can't expect every sequel to be an improvement. I mean, think about some famous SF series, like DUNE. Do we hate Herbert for having made poor sequels like God Emperor or love him for the brilliance of the original?
I dunno. I just think we've been spoiled quite a bit, and by demanding everything become bigger and better, we're finding out that even if it is slower, it is much less painful to drink from the water fountain instead of from a fire hose. -
STAR TREK was always intended to break new ground -- hell, to "boldly go where no man has gone before." But true to the Hollywood tradition of sticking with what worked once, Berman & Co. have decided to go the James Bond route with the franchise. When's the last time you were really pizazzed about a Bond flick? (Please, younger TalkBackers, don't say GOLDENEYE. If you don't go back at least to the first couple of Roger Moores, you just aren't trying.) It's not about newsness or originality -- it's about selling the same goddamned crap over and over to people lazy enough to settle for it. Why write a wholly original TREK? Why not just cobble together bits and chunks from the previous ones? People will still straggle in to see it. Why hasn't the franchise had an installment break $100 million in four pictures? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE TO. $80M is fine by them, as long as they're turning a small profit. They'll make the rest on home video and pay-per-snooze sales. STAR TREK has become the science fiction version of James Bond. There's nothing new under the Federation... Sigh.
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Aug 16, 2001 6:56:56 AM CDT
And by the way, you folks who are touting Stuart Baird on the ba
by roguewriter
... you scare the Bejesus outa me. You really do. I suspect you're exactly the kind of thoughtful, choosy cinephiles Berman's gang is aiming for. Bleah!
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The reviewed NEMESIS script is on the quality level of STAR TREK V.
That film was hated by fans, it didn't draw repeat business, nor did it attract non-TREK fans (as THE VOYAGE HOME did). From a business level, it would make no sense to produce the NEMESIS script. It will do TREK V business, if that. From an artistic level, it would be better not to make a TREK 10 at all, than to make a film which the fans will hate. There is ego involved, judging by the name's on the script, but PLEASE, toss that horrible script and start fresh. As a STAR TREK fan, I will not see NEMESIS. I refuse to see the characters I have watched for years handled so poorly. If a play or pay deal is attached with a deadline, and the studio feels they must make a film, then try remaking a STTNG
tv script for the big screen.
I would prefer to see a big budget version of THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS or YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE, then a replay of STAR TREK V. -
No more B&B!
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Patrick Stewart at some sci-fi convention in the UK recently stated that NEMESIS would begin production in October 2001 and that the internet reports surrounding the script "weren't entirely accurate."`In other words, the June draft of STAR TREK: NEMESIS might be further modified, but I find it hard to believe that they can fix this before October. Hell, I haven't seen anything anything related to preproduction concerning this film yet (no set designs, etc). Apart from the Trek regulars, no one else seems to have signed on, although if they're going for a young Picard clone, I'd suggest someone like Joseph Fiennes or Jude Law would be perfect (although I'm still alarmed at the Picard clone idea, I would have preferred a Spock clone - Leonard Nimoy would look good in a menacing goatee). I don't dismiss Captain Kronos harsh review of the STAR TREK: NEMESIS script; many of his observations, especially those dealing with the rehash of old ideas/themes (ageing, death, enterprise meeting the romulan ship for a diplomatic rendezvous, desert planet settings etc)ring true. Nevertheless, one reads to also read the dialogue, the emotions prevalent in the characters in the script, not just the set pieces as Kronos did. Still, I think two parallel stories dealing with clones is really too much (Romulan Picard clone, B-6) -I can barely handle one Data let alone two. And please stop the Data singing bullshit. I really don't want a dramatic Star Trek film to end with 'blue skies' over the closing scenes. My advice to John Logan and Stuart Baird: stick to your guns and wrestle this schizophrenic film away from the Berman, Spiner and Stewart trio (after all INSURRECTION was their idea).
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Hans Zimmer??!! That's according to Coming Attractions.com. Wow, Paramount bringing in fresh talent to the Trek franchise. Stuart Baird, John Logan, Dante Spinotti and Hans Zimmer. Nice lineup. Now if only they can fix the script - that is, if the Captain Kronos review was fair to the script after all.
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Obviously add Baron Von Flapjack to the countless childish kiddies who loved The Phantom Shitter, yes, I said The Phantom Shitter, now this isn't a Star Wars vs. Star Trek thing (I love both franchises equally!) Except that The Phantom Shitter was the biggest piece of dogshit to hit theaters in over ten years. That wasn't even science fiction, it was just plain dogshit, and everyone knows it. Hopefully, Attack of the Clones will be much better. As for Star Trek, well, let's remember, it's been around far longer than SW has, and it's seen by over a billion people each year. Now I do admit that Rick Berman has gotten too much control over Trek and it needs fresh blood, HOWEVER, like I stated before, many other people have read the script and says it's fantastic! So, once again, Baron Von Flapjack, GET BENT BY YOUR PIMP DADDY!
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I used to enjoy Trek-TNG. One thing that drove me nuts, way back then though, was hearing this Rick Berman name mentioned all the damn time. What the hell does this guy have to do with Trek? It seemed he was getting more credit for ST than Roddenberry. And ever since he's taken TNG off the air ((and no, the movie scripts haven't even been as good as the 2 part television shows)) , the whole thing has gone downhill. Now, even though I enjoyed The Phantom Menace, I didn't enjoy it as much as the original trilogy. And a few years before TPM, they had these 20th anniversary SW special additions, you know? Now, that was fine and all, but along the way, I kept hearing about some jerkoff named Rick McCallum or something. I think I saw his mug, first, on a special addition video, behind the scenes. He was uttering complete nonsense. I have this feeling he thinks Darth Vader is a robot, he's so out of touch. Have you seen the hair on these guys? Rick Berman and Rick McCallum look and sound like complete idiots. And obviously both Rick's are seeming to be the 'yes-men' behind these once beloved franchises. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon and how do we stop it? I'll probably go see this movie and all the SW movies, but if I see these guys on a DVD or something, I wouldn't be surprised if a brick goes flying into the TV screen. I say...DOWN WITH THE RICKS!!! I mean DICKS!
Rawhkey -
If I'm not mistaken, ST4 made the most money of the original 6 films (maybe even all of them.) Instead of copying the revered ST2, they should make the next film a lighthearted adventure. I mean, how many megalomaniacs can the ST universe handle?!? Khan, Kruge, Sybok, Chang, Soran, Queen Borg, and what-his-face from Insurrection. Now there is to be YET another one? They're not just rehashing other stories, they're REHASHING THE VILLIAN OVER AND OVER AGAIN!
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