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G.L.A.A.D. on the attack against JAY & SILENT BOB STRIKE BACK
Hey folks, Harry here... You know sometimes 'rights' groups just piss me off to no end. Here's a case where GLAAD has been made aware that there is a great deal of the use of "gay" and "fag" in a derogatory manner in JAY AND SILENT BOB STRIKE BACK. These terms are used by Jay in jest and in sport of his best friend since Childhood. There is no indication that Silent Bob was in fact gay, in fact given the arc of the overall series of films, it has been proven that Bob is in fact heterosexual given his 'Chasing Amy' speech. This is talk between two best friends. Two best friends that have most likely called each other harsher terms than 'gay' or 'fag'.. Not hateful. And there is actually a scene where Silent Bob seems to acknowledge within him the possibility of having homosexual feelings toward Jay, but only to us the viewer.
Mark Ebner interviewed Smith for the upcoming September issue of Premiere,
and shared this with AICN as Kevin's response to charges of gay-bashing:
" I don’t see the movie as gay-bashing. I see it as being gay-embracing. So much so that we’re running into problems with the MPAA right now. ...Nobody knows that yet, and all their issues are with the gay-themed humor. I was the first to go, "Are they afraid that we’re bashing gays? And the answer is no. In terms of gay humor – the tagline for this movie should be "They’re not gay. They swear they’re not gay.".... ...And I never felt for a second that it was gay bashing. ...At one point Jay is like "Oh, you really would have sucked my dick,’ and storms off. And Silent Bob looks right at the camera and nods. Like, ‘Yeah, I would have." " So in fact it seems that GLAAD is overlooking the entire subtext and underlying message of the film. As for the portrayal of obvious 'homosexuals' in the film... Actually, other than the gay characters from CHASING AMY that appear in brief cameos towards the end of the film, I don't know for certain if any of the other characters are in fact gay. The security guard that... well, you'll see. I would say that he is most likely a curiously sadistic buffoon, who gets a bit of glee from the position he finds himself in. And as for the hitchhiking gag (or suppression of the gag reflex as the case may be.) that is a JOKE. And a joke that swings hetero as well. However, this is an 'R' rated movie, meaning that there is material inappropriate for children without adult supervision. Which means, unless you are mentally a child, the humor in the film should be able to be understood by all upright walking adults of the human species... however, sadly that is not always the case.
Harry-
I'm sure someone else has alerted you of this, but just in case....here goes: the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) has made their intention clear to go on the attack against Kevin Smith's newest film for it's portrayal of homosexuals and its use of terms such a "gay" and "fag" in a derogatory manner. Now, I appreciate most of GLAAD's efforts, but this is ridiculous. Kevin Smith has proven himself a friend of the gay community on numerous accounts (most specifically with the whole of his best film to date, CHASING AMY), and this seems to be little more than a sad, misplaced attempt at gaining some exposure by going after the corporate monster that is DISNEY, once again at the expense of Mr. Smith (remember the Catholic League vs. Dogma).
The greatest strength of Kevin Smith as a writer is his ability to speak in the language of younger generations (who commonly use the aforementioned terms with a negative connotation) to enlighten them as to matters that transcend mere slang. It's unfortunate that such terms are in the youth culture's lexicon, but this is a fact that can't simply be avoided. Kevin Smith is one of the few people that actually key in on the absurdity of this language to reveal greater truths, while helping his audience mature in the process. Now, he's going to be punished for doing so, and I think it would be wise for us to stand up in defense of the guy and say when enough is enough.
To get the full scoop read this link from Kevin's message board: CLICK HERE TO READ IT ALL
Then again, I haven't seen the film, so maybe I shouldn't talk. You have Harry. Was it really so hate-filled and homophobic that such a witchhunt has become necessary?
Sensibly liberal,
Skylewalker
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Jul 31, 2001 10:48:40 PM CDT
It's a little late in the game for G.L.A.A.D. to be jumping on K
by iamlegolas
Well, this will only add to more ticket sales. When will people realize that boycotting/protesting things only adds fuel to the fire to go see/do/experience whatever the target is?
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Well hopefully this will help get the film some publicity.
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Afroman "Because I Got High", I work for a radio station and this just got let loose for radio airplay and Is an instant hit! I swear to f'g shit, It's like dont wory be happy crossed with Chetch And Chong, yet mellow and groovin.
-Duty -
But it sure isn't the kind that they might WANT. They just look like the bunch of pissy, whiney homosexuals that many people think they are. While I do believe some protests were legitimite, like the ones against Eminem, this is ridiculous. Were slowly becoming a nation that is so scared to even use the freedom of speech because there is some group somewhere that will be pissy and complain about it. And God help one group of people do;t like someting! Did anyone see that report on 20/20, how college campuses were so afraif od being criticized of being disciminatory against blacks, that they were actually disciminating against WHITES. WHites with the same test scores were admitted 25% of the time while blacks with the exact same scores got in nearly 100%???? This makes me sick. And no im not racist. I just believe that everyone should be EQUAL. Gays believe that they should be treated equal, but to them, equal means getting things just BECAUSE theyre gay, like they deserve it, for instance, a gay person who gets kicked out of the marines screams that it was because he is gay, and doesn;t stop to think that maybe he just couldn't cut it in boot camp, and the reason he got kicked out MUST be because he is a homosexual. If a gay man or woman can do this, couldn't a heterosexual say he got kicked out because he was heterosexual? NO. Gays and other minorities should just accept the fact that the world is NOT out to get them and if something happens to them it doesn;t mean that that happened to the mbecause they were a member of a minority group. Whew.
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Good to see smith is an equal oppurtunity Racist , gay basher and Church hater.What a way to practice your free speech Smith.
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Ahhhh HAAAHHH!!!! You know during the whole DOGMA debate the grungy/gothy kevin smith minions accussed the catholic legaue (CL)of censorship and opression and extoled the virtues of liberalsim. The grungies could not stroke thier cocks fast enough when Matt and Ben rip the CL. Well guess what kiddies GLADD is one of THE gropus that the hollywood left and those on the left in general rally around so are those who ripped the Catholic Leauge gonna rip GLADD will Matt and Ben mockl GLADD at every chance they get will Harvey Weienstien go out and hire Alan Dershowits and have him say "GLADD is silencing the vioce of a generation..." like he spoke of the MPAA of clearks in 1995? Will Harvey (I was boob and invested in dotcoms with no business plan lost a ton money and its all Dubya's Falt!!) Weinstien call GlADD a bunch of prudes...Will those on the hollywood left rally around kevin smith for his blantant homophobia like they did for his catholic bigotry? Will kevin smith fans who are still waitng for the second comming of Kurt Cobain and for the Black hole sun to come and wash away the rain who went out to see DOGMA saying they were going to send a message to catholic church do the same to all the Gays and Lesbians over at GLADD? I peronaly can not wait to watch....If your I whish Kurt Cobain would rise again sensibilities were offended I suggest you e-mail me at bankofkev@hotmail.com
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Just wanted to see if there's a pattern here with Smiths movies. Create controversy, get headlines,boycotts, appear on talk shows debating gay issues......hmmmmm seems he did the same thing when Dogma came out..Curious...well ,let's see what happens. Thought Dogma was dogshit. Ham handed, film school, quality movie. But who am I ,eh? Oh yeah, I've never ,to my knowledge read a Smith comic story either.
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Since GLADD is one of the big dogs in the equal rights movement ,it would only be the right thing if he pulled this movie and edited it for content. He could always release a DVD uncensored version to the throngs later. I'm really suprised with Disney backing this pile of shit. Gonna sell all My Disney stock tomorrow.
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Jul 31, 2001 11:30:48 PM CDT
WHOO HOO!!!!! LETS SEE LIBERALS TRY TO SPIN THIER WAY OUT OF HOL
by angry catholic
Ok for years these assholes over at mirimax have been telling us that homopobia comes the right. it comes from the catholic church. It comes from those evil republicans and if only there were all gone we could eat chocolat when ever we wanted....Well guess what you kevin smith fans who think your oh so tolerant than the rest of us YOUR DIRECTOR IDOL IS HOMOPHOBIC BIGOT!!!!!!!!Thats liberals your "vioce of generation" is a complete curel homophobic asshole. Since you KS fans worshiped evrything he does with god like reverence we now know you will hurl crel epithets at gays and lesibans everywhere...cause hey "Its all fun...' right? "Its just a joke..." Guess what kids a slur is a slur if Dr. Laura said the same things that KS says in this film (for the record she has NEVER used these words) you would have her thorwn off the air...WAIT A MINUTE YOU ALREADY DID THAT....And boy you KS fans thought you were being so tolerant you thought you were sticking it to the Catholic Church you showed us how open mided you are dint ya? And now that GLADD is gonna be calling you homophobic when you go and see this film and that you may lose your job and be branded a homophobe for the rest of your life.Are you be so quick to defend him...Mirimax? You know I rarely agree with GLADD at all but you but I give em credit for being consistant...YTo paraphrase a line they used in the Dr Laura controversy..."Kevin Smith has the right to free speech, but he does NOT have a right to a movie..." Good enough to throw Dr. Laura off the air its definity good enough to Kevin Smith out of a theatre....
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Just thought I had to put up at least a little bit of defense for GLAAD, since nobody else seems to have the least bit of understanding for their claims. Saying things like "These terms ['gay' and 'fag'] are used by Jay in jest and in sport of his best friend since Childhood" and "Two best friends that have most likely called each other harsher terms than 'gay' or 'fag'" means that you really haven
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Jul 31, 2001 11:40:49 PM CDT
I have a question for you Kevin Smith defenders: Were you out de
by bullworth
I can say with out a doubt: Probably Not. This goes to show you that blantant hypocrocy on the part of Kevin Smith fans and the left in particular....I must say Angry Catholic (So surprised to see you siding with GLADD) has proven the emperor has no clothes....I guess KS fans are the most selfish bunch out there...NO WAY you say well. to quote angry catholic "a slur a slur" when you call some "fag" or ""dyke" you doing it to cause harm...But alas cause its in a film by some YOU idolize were all told by you "Oh its just a joke...GLADD should just calm down..." Well KS fans I hate to break this to ya but GLADD carries more clout in hollywood than Kevin Smith. If you want to stand by him go ahead be my guest it will only show that you are a homophobe and how low you are on lthe liberal food chain...
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...pop-ups now? greedy bastard.
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Jul 31, 2001 11:53:39 PM CDT
Kevin Smith and Eminem must of come from the shallow end of the
by 20th century fox
Wow you KS fans are trying to spin your way out of this one...Lets face facts...If any conservative made a film using the terms Kevin Smith uses in JASBSB they would be branded by KS fans every where as intolerant homophobes and we need to keep eyes on em...We would hear KS fans and KS himself crow from the roof tops about tolerance and acceptance....We would have Matt and Ben stand with several out gays telling us how films like this are hurtful to them and even when the characters say it "As a joke..." or "They been calling them that for years..." only reienforces sterotypes of gays and increases the climate of hate in our country....Well now the shoe is on the other foot as other posters have so elequently stated before me....You know during the dogma debate we who thought KS was being offensive to catholics were often accused of homophobia. We were slammed as lackeys of the catholic church the same church who would contribute to the climate of hate in intolerance...Well guess what i have YET to hear the pope call a homosexual a "fag"...But I know KS does...I see the pope praying for mathew shepard but i do not see Kevin Smith lifting a finger to help any gay who suffers homophobic violence...However KS will fling homophobic slurs at a attempt to bloster his shitty film...Which according to all those KS fans is "gonna to the climate of hate and intolerance...
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When liberals chide folks for speaking in a way they are familiar, it's good, but when they get the same thrown back at them, ohhh nooo ,we can't have that. Because liberals wouldn't speak that way,heavens forbid. Liberals are cowards and liars. They are supposed to be the enlightened, chosen people.hahahahahaahaahaa what a load. It shouldn't be up to any One Group in this country to decide who can say what and when. Hear about the young lady kicked out of that all female university for saying that ELLENS show was boring? Hmmm ,yeah,sure, didn't think so. The ladies that gave her the boot were,....wait for it..........Lesbians......yes ladies and germs ,The Gay Community is neither Tolerant or Flexible.They want us to treat them as equals, well no one is my equal, I daresay everyone feels that way about themselves. Unless you suffer from poor self esteem. I don't want liberals or conservatives Trying to chart my life's path for me. Especially liberals,Lieing no good cheating ,dirty, underhanded ...... well you get my drift. i hope with all this Liberal negative attention brought to bare on this flick, that it fails miserably. I mean, everyone on these talkbacks are always saying that we shouldn't support crappy movies because Hollywood will just keep churning out crappy movies. Let's get some consistency here folks.Don't cower away and start sticking up for this Homophobe,who obviously has a track record of this type.Well me dear ole pappy once tol me ,"Son! A Man Is Judged By The Company He Keeps,So Mind ,Hear!".AHHH words to live by folks.
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Why? Simple...Having a film in which the heros are tossing off homopohbic slurs and your supposed to LAUGH WITH THEM...Well guess what being branded a homophobe is the KISS OF DEATH in Hollywood...Think I'm crazy think i'm nuts...Right the team at GOODMACHINE is doing a feature about what happened to mathew shepard. And Ted Hope was amazed at the A-List talent that was calling him up begging to be in the film because they were so upset at what happened to poor Mathew Shepard...Well now comes kevin Smith with his next opus where were all supposed to have a rolicking good time at the use of what is homophobic jokes/terms attitudes...Now do you think these A-listers will want ANYTHING to do with Kevin Smith? After this I doubt so..........------------------Also another tidbit for you KS defenders to chew on....The Killers of Mathew Shepard were using the terms "fag" to describe him when they were burtally killing him....I'm sure they were laughing also...think about that when you see it in JASBSB.....
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Aug 01, 2001 12:07:36 AM CDT
Has anyone noticed that all the KS defenders are constantly repe
by justice41
Funny huh? all the conservatives here as far as i've read has not repeated the slurs but the Libs have,hmmmmmm i wonder if they get some kinda childish kick out of using those words. Nawww , couldn't be!! Liberals ,childish? Getouttahere !!!! Well hopefully the conservs will keep up the clean patter and not descend into name calling and semetic or Homophobic ,racists slurs. The libs will, as they are want to always do,to keep throwing crap
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I'm sure the majority of readers will understand when I say that this new protest from GLAAD have, in the words of a great man, two affects on my wanting to see this movie...jack and shit.
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Jack just left town.
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Aug 01, 2001 12:13:34 AM CDT
Oh and when i said Libs are Cowards ,Liars and Hypocrits,wasn't
by justice41
Easily proved too.Condit,Clinton,Kennedy.need I go on.And don't bore us with your list of supposed Conservs, Liars, that's just a figment of your infertile imagination.
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Aug 01, 2001 12:17:37 AM CDT
Forget the Catholic Church americas real homophobia lies over at
by angry catholic
Memo to Harvey Weinstien and by extension,Kevin Smith: For years you made films protraying my church as the home for intolerance in america. You would prodly proclaim to anyone how you exposed the intolerance that the right harbors for all of those things you hold dear...When we would complian about PRIEST you would talk about "tolernce" and "respect" for the gay communtiy and how our outrage at this and toher films you produced were only increasing anti-gay sentiment... NOW one of YOUR FILMS is filed with the things you accused me and my church of doing...Will be show your "Tolerance" and "Respect" for the gay community by dumping his crap feat and kicking him out of the Mirimax Family? I know you wont, cause in your mind its jutst humor and joking around....All I can say is GO GLADD GO!!!!I hope you put every ounce of pressure you have to bear on Smith and Weinstien. Make em drop it...you did it to Dr. Laura now do it to Kevin Smith and Harvey weinstien...
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Aug 01, 2001 12:20:04 AM CDT
anyone remember the "addams family" movie controversy from years
by nexus-6
some group of stuttering people were offended by Gomez telling Thing "slow down! you know i hate it when you stutter!", in the first addams movie(when Thing was using sign language like a madhand). anyone else remember that? it's 2001 fer chrissakes, sticks and stones people...
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You know I was some what irked when Gladd went after Dr. Laura for her TV show...But you know I'm a MUCH happier camper that they are willing to stand up to KS Homophobia....I guess they are consitstanmt after all...
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Aug 01, 2001 12:35:08 AM CDT
It's a little late in the game for GLAAD to stomp on Jay's langu
by vroom socko
For God's sake, Jay has been around since 1994. Jay is a sexist, homophobic asshole. He's always been a sexist, homophobic asshole. for him to be any less in this, the final Askewniverse film, would be an insult to those who follow these films. Does GLAAD think that we, as viewers look up to Jay? This is the guy who spent a day hanging out in front of an abortion clinic as a way to pick up loose women; who out there takes Jay seriously? The way some of you are carrying on (without the benifit of having seen the film,) you'd think Kevin Smith had done a remake of Birth of a Nation. P.S. JUSTICE41, you are without a doubt the most annoying person to post on AICN. Now before you jump down my throat and call me a liberal wuss, I'm not a member of any political party. Politics, in point of fact, bores the shit out of me. Still, I find your blanket statements about liberals insulting to the extreme. I know many intelligent, rational conservatives, whom I respect. When I'm around them, I tend not to call all conservatives corrupt thugs who are dumber than sticks just because that's my opinion of Nixon and George W. This is a public forum, show some respect.
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Not that there's anything wrong with that. When he goes on his book tour I'm going to ask him for an autograph and then surprise him with a big wet french kiss! (Just kidding Harry!)
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The proof is right there in your post,You have no political leanings? Don't believe that for a sec.Hence, the reason I say libs like You, are in fact, Liars and cowards. Respect? You ask for respect ?Boy, you got to earn that,and throwing around personal insults aint the way to get it. Now go put on your stomping boots and go see if you can find any gays to bash like your fictional hero's.Toodle's
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Aug 01, 2001 12:55:30 AM CDT
Wow so if you were around in 1994 then you can be a homophobe ca
by angry catholic
I mean thats what a poster just said...So lets take a it to the logical conclusion: You can be can have homophobic insuts all over your film, but its OK just as long as you've been around long enough and have enough fans who will revolt if the character does anything thats differnce...
TRANSLATION: Its OK for Kevin Smith to be homophobic its ok to have Homophobic heros runnig around cause he was around since 1994 AND my fans demand it...But there not homophobic???????????????????????????????Ergo: Imagine David duke making "Birth Of A Nation 2" and him saying:"Well the first one has been around early 20th Century and my fans who have been following this for all that time would be isulted if i toned it down" I smoething stinks over at view askew... -
is what i ment to say...
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If any of you senseless bastards have taken enough time out of your liberal and GLAAD bashing, you might've read Kevin's letter to the public about the entire issue.
He's not a homophobe; in fact he is continuing to promote tolerance by portraying Jay and Silent Bob as possible gay men themselves. And Besides, HAVE YOU SEEN CHASING AMY? Breaking News: Kevin Smith loves Gays! He made A MOVIE ENTIRELY PRO-GAY!!!
If THAT isn't enough proof for you, GO READ HIS LETTER at www.newsaskew.com
And for another thing. Don't bash liberals and say we're getting a taste of our own medicine. GLAAD is following it's political line by going after supposed Ant-Gay of defaming material in the media. I for one think they've gone to far and are betraying a strong gay rights friend and activist in Kevin Smith. Hopefully they'll spare us all the controversy and make it right by dropping the issue.
So to all you Republican, Conservative, shit-for-brains bigots and assholes, go home to your trailer parks and fuck your ignorant beaten wives while you slobber and whine and finish fast enough to satisfy yourself and no one else. If you're stupid enough to go after Liberals in general for certain bad apples, then WATCH THE FUCK OUT! Because your ideology has been known for an unhealthy amount of demogogue behavior. Suck on it real hard. Smoke my cock and gargle my cum.
All My Love,
RioVolt
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Im sorry but if somehting is funny say it. Poepl are now way to PC for there own good. If you take offence to somehting that is ment as a joke then sorry for you. Hummor is funny.....all hummor. Yes there are times when people can go to far, and yes there are time when things are said as a joke but we all know arent, but for the most part it is a joke. Its funny how like the africa american community they can say "Nigger" but whites and yes even white gays cant say it, and if your gay you can say "fag". But god forbid if a white or black stright person says "fag". If its funny and it fits in the story say it. hell Im German and native american, do you know how many jokes I hear about "taking over the world" or drinking on the res" comwe on. yes Librals can be just as bad a the left wing, but for the most part I thank god Im liberal. In Dogma the republicans (i.e. Church folk) were all over it, and the liberals went off on them, now the liberals are on JASBSB but there is no group to stick up for them, and I doubt it is ALL iberals, I mean tons of liberals are affraid to express them selves because of the really "hard core" liberals. If you go to far on either side it is bad. We all need to find a middle ground........Well it is almost 6am and Im still kinda drunk, so sorry about any misspellings and such. All Im saying is: if its funny say it!!
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Aug 01, 2001 1:28:35 AM CDT
If Kevin Smith is "Pro-Gay" for what he does in this film then
by 20th century fox
Ahhh here we go...Spin form the Kevin smith camp...OK So because of Chasing Amy had one (in some ways sterotyipcal) gay character means he the biggest champion ofr gay rights on the planet?????...COME ON! you must be shooting herion! But hey I'm sure those killers of mathew shepard could have used the same defense "Yeah we used the term "fags" when we killed him but hey we had a gay friend in 1998 so were not homophobic and you lay off us..." If you want to go that route be my guest. But I tell you KS fans who for years have been bragging during the DOGMA debate about how tolerant you were YOU HAVE NOW BEEN EXPOSED as homophobes troting out the lamest excuses I've ever heard. Tell me KS defenders when GLADD was going after Dr. Laura with both barrels were YOU telling GLADD to back off? When Glad said "Dr. Laura has the right to free speech but not a televison show." Were you out there telling how wrong headed GLADD was...WHAT ARE YOU JOKING? You clowns were cheering to end that one of those religous convservatives who were protesting DOGMA got what they deserved. Well guess what a slur is a slur Kevin Smith is doing them for your entertianmet._____________________________________Oh by the way have you noticed its the conservatives who are SUPPORTING GLADD for being consistant...While kevin smithdefenders are trying to defend this piece of homophobic garbage....That came form the (supposedly) most tolerant place on earth: View Askew/Mirimax....
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Damn, Justice, you say people who make personal attacks aren't deserving of your respect just after you make a personal attack? Pot, meet kettle. I didn't realise that calling someone annoying was an attack. Mabe you should reread what I posted. What I said was that JAY IS AN ASSHOLE! He's the kind of piece of shit that I'd cross the street to avoid. That's his character. That's who he is. To have him be any less than that after five movies would be a betrayal of the character. As to my being a liberal who likes to stomp on gays, what the fuck are you smoking? Most of the liberal and conservative folks I know are completly outside the box when it comes to political steriotypes. As to my political beliefs, I do think that the current president is a witless moron. I also think that Clinton is a witless moron, and that Condit probably killed that little lost intern. Not that you give a fuck. I also spent my senior year in high school working as a dishwasher in a gay club, and was the only straight employee the place had. Not that you give a fuck. No JUSTICE41, you have the amazing ability to know me better than I do simply by reading a paragraph I posted online. Here's a personal attack for you; shut the fuck up. You're an annoying little insect that's probably two posts away from being banned anyway. If you want to keep talking shit, my e-mail is vroomsocko@hotmail.com. Stop cluttering up this board with your banal posts.
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Jesus christ. I have never posted before, simply because I find it to be a waste of time. In general, most of this crap has no value in the real world what so ever. Its usually just a nice way to waste some time. You however have pissed me off to such an extent. Your posts are ringing out like a little baby boy who thinks he has finally gotten the better of his bigger, smarter, more popular brother. Yet you have gotten nothing! You are sitting online posting far too many messages for any human being who has any kind of contact with members of the oposit sex. And on top of it, you don't know what the hell you are saying! I am a liberal and very proud of that fact. It is a tittle I have chosen to take when I describe my political and social leanings. But its only a word. You cannot classify my by it, or Kevin Smith, or Miramax, or GLAAD or anyone elese. Guess what? I support gun rights.... to an extent. Why? Because it is in the Constitution. You know what else I beleive in? THE FIRST AMENDMENT JACK ASS! It says you can flip out like the silly bitch you are, and I can attack you and waste my time all I like in turn. Orwell once said something to the effect that true freedom means telling people what they don't want to hear. Well KS is doing that, or maybe not at all. maybe he just feels like it. And GLAAD is responding in kind, as is their right. Do we all have to like it? No. I am not gay, I do not pretend to understand how the film makes them feel. Me in general, I dont care. Now I assume you may be a little sore by it all, but jeeze, suck it up. The point is, everyone in this situation is right. If you dont like the movie, dont watch it. If you dont agree with GLAAD, dont support them. And finally, Justice, if you're not getting laid, don't waste your time on AICN, go out and find a gym. I beleive TV Nation once ran a pole that discovered almost 70 percent of American women reported never having had a fufilling relationship with a republican...hmmm....
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Why don't we start using NIGGER "in zest". I mean, we're already using words like FAG, why not branch out into other areas? CHINC, JAP, WHOP, GUINEA, REDNECK, KYKE... after all, we're only joking, right? I think it would be hilarious to have Ben Affleck's every other line to be, "Fucking niggers!!"
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When the Catholic Leauge protested DOGMA Liberals everywhere went to see the film/defend the film. Why? Cause when the church is getting slammed liberals count wait to support it. Now I'm hearing from some posters how this is going to help this film...Well I do NOT think so. Lets face it people NO ONE wants to be called Homophobic and no one want to be seen walking into a theatre while GLADD is out there protesting. Soccer Moms will think you are intolerant and so will everyone else.Mathew Shepard/Bradon Teena murders will be invoked at every opportunity and with the implication that this film will spead homophobia....But what about college campuses you say? HELLO! Gay organizations are extremly well organized on them they can bring incredible pressure to bear on college students (Lets face it: College students are Kevin smith's core audience.....) Thus depriving this film of its core market. (You can kiss free screeing on campuses good by too if gay activists canm prevent the army from recruting then kicking kevin Smith off is no problem) You know this is affecting him already if hes posting a letter saying..."I'm not a gay basher I'm pro-gay rights..." Also remember while DOGMA did OK many of those outside of KS core audience hated it add that to be braneded a homophobe at the theatre will not make for good b.o.
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Look, in NYC the ACLU lobbied to make sure the KKK could hold their rally, just like anyone else in the country. Why? THEY HAVE THE RIGHT! I was at the rally on Friday supporting their right to march. Guess what, I went back on Monday to yell, boo, and make fun of their small brains and silly stupid redneck hillybilly hoods. So did Thousands of other people. You excersise your rights in this nation by acting, not by crying like a baby on a chat back. The world is full of "dangerous" knowladge that tons of respected people dont want you to hear. And a lot of it you should. Point being Censorship is a slippery slope. I find it sad that a liberal organization calls for Censorship. There is no place for it of any kind. I am a liberal, a real liberal. Not a pissy little bitch. I am a jew, call me a kike, I DONT CARE! They are words. Just words. Their use only proves a person's stupidity. And oh yeah, this is a movie. Its ENTERTAINMENT! ITS NOT REAL! Dr. Laura is a DOCTOR she is real. People trust her and her opinions. When she starts going off like a fool on the gay community, she does need to be pulled off of the air if the company supporting her does not agree with her stance. Its the company's choice. She can stand on any street corner in America and say whatever she wants. That's freedom. Its not Miramax, Paramount, or Disney's job to distribute freedom. Its our job to take it whenever we can. "The price for true Freedom is eternal vigilance" Thomas Jefferson. A man who knew alot more about freedom of speech then any of you morons trying to say Liberals are the root of all evil. We all know that indeed conservatives have done most of the work in keeping the world mediocre since the death of JFK ( conservatives fault too, trust me) Now I have to go and try not to waste anymore time here, though this is kinda fun.
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Aug 01, 2001 1:55:22 AM CDT
So I can be a Racist, Homohpobic,Mysogonsitc asshole but as lomg
by 20th century fox
Wow if thats not spinm i dont know wht is...Face it Kevin Smith fans you idol has really screwed up. So have you. I know know I can be the most intolerant prick around cause all i have to do say "Hey I've been like this from the begining and this what my fans expect." or "Its just done in jest..." Well come on. When Rep Richard Armey made a slip of the tounge with barney franks name. Liberals and not to mention you Kevin smith defenders were quick to brand all republicans as racisit bigotoed homophobes...During the dogma controversy that was troted out as what all conservatives think...Now the vioce of generation from the most tolerant studios on earth has made a movie that if any conervative did would be imeadly impunded, is being defended as "its just humor..." Yeah Right.
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Lets see, what has your evil religion been responsible for? The crusades ( Before you assholes showed up everyone down there lived in, for the most part, harmony). They killed, raped, and pillaged for who? God? Does your God get off on carnage? Lets see what else... the Inquisition? Hmm... I guess that must have seemed like a good idea at the time...ASSHOLES! How many people did you torture and kill because they didnt see eye to eye with you? How many? What else, well you turned a very blind eye to the Hollocaust ( I know not all of you did, but the Pope did). You have also opressed women, gays, gypsies, anyone not just like you... Now I admit, you're not all bad... but the Pope is an idiot who needs to be put down. Religion in general was being bashed in Dogma, and guess what? It deserved it. But none more the the Catholics. Admit it, you guys have left yourselves open for it. Now don't get me started on the other cults of christ. Or Yaweh, or Muhammad. Its all the same anyway... the Catholics just seem to bitch louder and do more assanine things in their lord's name. He must be sooo pissed off. Kevin Smith is a catholic. So I think he has a pretty legit reason to satirize the church. He could have done much worse. No please, everyone, keep bitching. This is fun.
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First off, I'm gay and believe me I've been called a fag pretty much all my life quite probably more than the average gay guy. I got used to it a long time ago, and I can totally tell when someone is calling me a fag and they're joking, and when they call me a fag and want to bash my head in with a baseball bat, as can most gay guys. Now I haven't seen this movie, but I've always been a fan of Kevin - mostly because he's pretty much equal opportunity offensive - everyone's minority gets it as much as mine does. He is a unique artist who expresses his view of the world through film, something that we have the right to do here in this country. I vote with my wallet. I don't own any CDs by Eminem, maybe he doesn't like gays, but who cares - I don't like Rap so I don't buy it. Dr. Laura is the same - No, I don't like what she has to say, SO I DON'T WATCH HER SHOW. Extremists will always fade away. Now I'm pretty sensitive to the portrayal of gays in the media and believe that GLAAD does a very good job, and yes they screw up from time to time. I thought Kevin's letter was AMAZING, they should be quoting that in every gay rag in the country. The truth is that homosexuality is a hotbed, just look at the posts here, and as much as the gay and lesbian community tout our achievements like "Will and Grace" and the like, there is still much work to do. (I for one would really like to see a great gay love story with just two guys - No AIDS, no gay bashing, just the reality of genuine love between two men. Sorry RANT) However I deal with homophobia one person at a time I try to be a good person, one who betrays the stereotype, one who knows when to stand-up and when to shut-up. I will go see this movie and will probably laugh at the gay jokes, and the straight jokes, and anything else I find humorous. I know that these are characters, in an R rated movie. Kids are probably not going to look to Jay and Silent Bob and say to themselves, "Gee I want to be just like them!", and start calling each other faggot. If they do then they probably did already and this movie will do one of two things 1) NOTHING 2) Show how stupid they sound when talking like that. I applaud KS for donating to the Matthew Shepard Foundation, and continuing to support tolerance for the gay community in tangible and heartfelt ways. Keep it up Kevin, Here is one fag who appreciates and admires your work.
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Out come that most odious of social groups, the extremeists, that of the politically correct, left wing liberals, screaming with outrage at their offended sensibilities and leaping on the bandwagon for all they are worth.
And in the red corner, the right wingers, catching Smith in a cross fire with their loathsome diatribes on Smiths actually easy going observations on acceptance and hypocrisy(Note to right wingers: Everyone is a hypocrite, even you. If you don't believe me, at keast believe the `Godfather`. `We're all part of the same hypocrisy` etc etc etc).
To the mention Of Eberts comments on the `End of days`- `Dogma` comparison, the simple fact is that End of Days is a packaged, wrapped, genetically engineered slice of mainstream pandering, designed to saturate the masses with brain numbing action and keep them goggle eyed and blissfully happy(Hell, I loved it).
Dogma actually tried to make you THINK for yourself. That's what they hate! They love end of days because no-ones coming out of the cinema giving two shits about the pros and cons of the church, no-one is considering notions of hypocrisy or of good and evil.
This seems to be the point. A guy like Smith is his own man, he doesn't have to join himself to any established `groups` or trains of thought- he is his own man, a thoughtful, funny man whom to me seems incapable of a wholly nasty thought or expression in any of his movies.
But ooh, you say, think of all the SWEARING!
He must be evil!
It's not like every single teenager in the country is using pretty much the same language in the same non-agenda, backhand, common, teenage way!
The kids are alright...especially the ones who watch kevin Smith movies.
The evil bastards are the ones who sit in front of Bring It On and Coyote Ugly, their eyes glazed and their brains numb.
Oooh, you say, but those movies are so NICE!
Rant over. -
(1) Having a nitwit fictional character in a movie using homophobic slurs is not the same as a nitwit on the radio and TV telling her audience that homosexuality is indecent. (2) Directing a movie in which a nitwit fictional character uses homophobic slurs is not the same as luring a guy away under the pretense of sex and then brutally murdering him. Those points are for the talkbackers comparing Kevin Smith with Dr. Laura and the killers of Matthew Shepard. (3) Jay says stupid stuff in general, not just against gays. Though he uses words to that effect, I don't especially read him as anti-gay to the extent where he would actually beat the shit out of someone just for being gay. As others have pointed out, he's a classic latent homosexual saying stuff like 'fag' just to deflect suspicion like most other alpha-male nitwits do. It's code for 'I'm saying this word, so I must not be gay.' Smith goofs on this whenever possible. He uses Jay in somewhat the same way that Norman Lear used Archie Bunker. It helps that in both cases you have funny and likable actors playing the parts. (4) I very much doubt Smith has a problem with gay people. I think he has a problem with gay people who tell him what his characters can and can't say. In this case I think GLAAD is doing itself more harm than good, the same way feminists who called for the banning of 'American Psycho' ended up looking like prudish censors; it doesn't invalidate the basic points of feminism or GLAAD, though. (5) Never thought I'd see the day when conservatives rushed to the defense of GLAAD. Must be that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. When GLAAD attacks one of their conservative heroes they'll go back to the usual antigay rhetoric. (6) The key difference between Catholic-bashing and gay-bashing is that one seldom hears about gays butchering heteros for not being gay, and gays don't have a multimillion dollar enterprise set up solely to convert heteros to gays. (Another key difference: one can convert from Catholicism to another religion, but one can't convert from gay to hetero, no matter what the fundamentalist 'I was a gay sinner but now I am saved' hypocrites tell you.) Faith in God is one thing, but the Catholic Church as an institution is hopelessly corrupt and I feel bad for those who honestly try to live their lives according to the Catholic rulebook just because they happen to have had the misfortune to be born in a Catholic family. Some Catholics, however, are touchy about it to the extent where if you question the Church politics and policy it's like you're spitting on every individual Catholic everywhere. Classic overreaction. But y'know, when you have a guy in charge who's against abortion AND birth control (sex is only for making more Catholics, right?), then I gotta tune out, sorry.
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On opening day I'm going to have a group of all my gay and lesbian friends who absolutely love Jay and Silent Bob there. The majority of them forced me to play the Clerks Uncensored DVD over and over again just for J&SB. This is really ridiculous and I can't believe this is for real. Well, as long as nothing is cut from the movie I know that it'll be great and everyone will get over it.
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dr laura and kevin smith are not the same. j&SBSB is a MOVIE. not real. it's fiction. and although the terms fag and gay may hurt people's feelings, they are terms used by people everyday. not to mention the main characters are using them because they are scared to acknowledge their own homosexuality. in this context i don't understand how anyone could think Kevin smith is homophobic. IF he was on a talkshow and said something like "I HATE FAGS" i could understand. but he hasn't. he's a big supporter of gay rights. now getting to dr. laura. laura on the other hand is not fiction. she's on the radio saying gays are deviants and freaks of nature. thats much different than simply using a word that unfortunately may be part of our collective, in a dialouge.
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Go Martin Go Martin Go Martin Go!
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Aug 01, 2001 4:13:07 AM CDT
we've really got an open door policy on assholes today haven't w
by jon l. ander
Angry Catholic, 20th Century Fox, Justice what-ever-the-fuck-your-number-is, stop trying to put yourselves across as tolerant or whatever, it's laughable. And stop whining about your precious bloody Dr Laura. So what if she never used the word fag? She says plenty of other stuff to make up for it thats just as bad, probably worse in fact because she cloaks it in a veneer or deceny to distract from how repugnant her opinions are. And as for your constant attacks on liberals as hypocrites and cowards, thats just as lame and generic as me criticising all conservatives for being bigoted and reactionary. I don't live in america so i don't have an in depth knowledge of your politics, but still, every time you mention Clinton or Kennedy i know enough to say back "Nixon" (as bent as dogs hind leg) or Dubya (coke using drunk driving moron)
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You know what I'm going to do? I'm gonna organize a protest against GLAAD. That's right. I'm gonna protest the protestors. If anyone protests this movie when it comes out for any gay defamation, I'm going to protest against THEM.
Why?
Firstly, just like them I have nothing better to do. Secondly, it advertises the movie, which is something I'd like to do. Thirdly, it'll get the facts out to the people. I want people to hear what is really going on, not what GLAAD says about the 'horrifying' content of J&SBSB.
Screw GLAAD and what they're doing. They may have a cause, but the execution of attack is all wrong.
SIDE NOTE: It's 5:00 in the morning, so if anything, I'm probably the equivalent of a drunk man. This doesn't mean I'm not serious about the protest, because I really do have too much time on my hands.
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First they attacked the homophobes.
Then they attacked Eminem.
Finally, they attacked the pro-homosexuals, and realized that there was no one left but themselves to be attacked. -
OK, people, this shit had gone on far enough. Look at this, we're fighting over a person's right to SAY A FUCKING WORD. Once upon a time, the entire REASON this country existed was because all the miscreants, free thinkers, and hopefuls of the world couldnt take any more of their home country's shit, not allowing them basic human rights. Now 225 years later, we're back to fucking square one. Now, i want all of you to listen where i'm coming from. First off, for those who dont know, i happen to be black, and live in a predominantly black/latino neighborhood, so i've had to deal with the word "Nigger" being thrown around like nothing for years. Now, personally, i hate that word, hate it with a passion. Somebody calls me that, the shoe on my foot willl be immediately implanted in that person's ass. HOWEVER, i dont take away anyone else's right to say it. They're entitled to use whatever words they want, as long as it's cool with whoever they're addressing, and, as sad a fact as it might be, some people around here see it as a term of endearment. I may not like it, but hey, if the two people involved dont care, neither should i, cause it's none of my fucking business. That brings me to this "Gay" and "Fag" thing...ok, on the moviegoers aspect, G.L.A.D.D. are just being royal bastards over this. Last time i checked(watched Clerks last month, Mallrats same day, Chasing Amy last week, Dogma the day the Spec. Ed. came out), gay humor has been in Kevin Smith's movies since the beginning. Does this mean that Kevin has something against gay people? NOT AT ALL. See, his series has always put a smile on my face simply based on the fact that it takes place in Jersey, where i happen to live. Where i live, i remember being a schoolkid, and hearing kids calling each other gay or fag. I knew what the word meant, so i didnt use it, but i knew the intent as well. Using the term or inplication of which in that context falls under the simple category of making someone into something they're not...thats what makes it an insult, not some deep seated homophobia....In the View Askewniverse, Kevin doesnt even make insult of the fact...he embraces it for the most part. Jay's character uses the words fairly often in the same playground context i mentioned before....and as we find out later, he's doing it for the same reasons Banky does in Chasing Amy...Now, skipping around in movieworld a little....someone like Col. Fitts in American Beauty...THAT'S homophobia, that's hatred, and while i wont spoil it for those who havent seen it, those who have know what's up with him. I mean, even think about Survivor....Rudy called Richard a queer every time he got in front of the camera, but does that mean he's going go "Fag Hunting" when he gets home? Not at all. Because when he says it, its not meant to insult Richard, or express how much he hates gay people. It's a word to express what he doesnt quite understand. Some people are like that. And if you dont like the word, he's also not talking to you, now is he? You can hate the word, but not his right to say it in his context. I think there's far worse crap for the Gay/Lesbian Alliance to go attacking....there are sick motherfuckers out there who are throwing beer bottles and dragging gay people behind cars because of their hatred. And believe me, THOSE assholes didnt get their ideas from Kevin Smith, OR The Marshall Mathers LP....thats not some shit you just all of a sudden get from one listen to an album...thats the type of thing you are taught from day one from PARENTS.....and where's the alliance? Protesting a movie....Perspective guys....you need it...bad. Revolution is my name...
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(1) I posted my thoughts here before reading Smith's message at View Askew, so I had no idea he had also used the Archie Bunker analogy. Kev, I'll get your brain back to you as soon as I'm finished using it, okay? (2) I can see the emails now: 'Dude, I was with you up until point 6 when you started slagging Catholics. I'm a Catholic blah blah blah'... To be clear and blunt, the better friends I have tend to have been raised Catholic. For one thing they are more likely to have had more rigorous educations at Catholic schools. They also tend to fall into 2 categories: lapsed Catholic, or Catholics kind of like Smith himself, trying to lead a life as flawed human beings in this crazed fucking world while simultaneously trying to toe the official Catholic line (can't do this, can't do that, gotta do this, priests are closer to God than you are, etc.). Oddly, the Kevin Smith fans I know who are Catholics didn't care for 'Dogma.' They definitely weren't offended -- they were LAPSED, for Pope's sake -- but I think what happened is that they got bored with all the talk. I, as a lapsed Protestant (you don't get more lapsed than that), was new to all the Catholic discussion in the film, so to me it was a learning experience as well as an epic slapstick comedy. (3) uh, I lost the plot there. Point I was making is, most wafer-eaters I've known have been cool. It's The Man I have a problem with, the institution. To me, no more or less valid than any other group that meets in buildings and gives it over to a higher power. Hell, AA may be more valid in that respect. (4) Having read Smith's message, I am more than ever convinced that he has heart and intends Jay as goof-worthy. An 'ironic hero' if you will. I mean, the guy deals dope for Christ's sake, and says stuff like 'Do chicks fart when they take it up the ass?' Anyone who considers him a role model is in serious-ass trouble. If he's admirable at all it's because he is completely who he is and is generally harmless, all mouth. If you put Jay with a flamingly gay guy they'd probably just hang out and smoke some weed. Jay isn't the type who's gonna bash. (5) This ended up being a few points more than a couple, but...I would say most guys out there, even some gay guys, when they were adolescents and early teens, all used words like 'fag' and whatnot. (A whole other can of worms: adolescent/teen girls being vicious about who's a 'dyke' or not in their class.) At that age you want to do two things: (A) fit in and (B) define your sexuality, which means liking girls and NOT being anything like 'fags.' Many guys do grow out of this. Many guys don't, and continue to speak and act in a way that reflects their insecure need to fit in and their insecurity about their own sexuality. Jay would seem to be in the latter group. I mean, he's a fucking poster boy for arrested development. I seem to recall similar moments in the 'Bill & Ted' movies when they'd have one of those 'we're alive! let's hug!' moments, then break off quickly and say 'fag.' They weren't exactly rocket scientists either. Smith at least makes fun of and has fun with that mindset. (6) GLAAD's fear about 'young males and teens who might not get the satire' is more of the same tired bulling -- 'WE get it -- we're concerned about the other idiots who aren't as enlightened as we are.' The subhumans who killed Matthew Shepard would've done so with or without hearing Jay say 'fag,' and, sadly, with or without realizing that Smith means Jay to be satirical.
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Maybe its my imagination, but it feels like the only time they get riled up over something is when someone's onto something, or they ask a valid question of one of those "traditional values" they hold so dear...Dogma raised a shitload of questions, they got pissed....Stigmata, which i was actually handed a flyer by someone to boycott, asked if the Vatican was hiding certain things, they got pissed....there was this really good movie called Priest that was supposed to come out in 94, about this priest who hears a murderer's confession, hears him describe the murder in detail, and has conflicts about whether to go to the authorities or not....needless to say, Catholic League got SO pissed, Miramax was forced to not even give the film a theatrical release...hmmph....apparently, the first rule of Catholic Club is you do not ask questions....Revoluton is still my name.
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Okay, let me start off by saying that this is probably the most...interesting talkback I have ever read. I do have to ask though, how big of a mountain are we going to make of this molehill? Let me clarify. While I whole-heartedly agree with GLAAD's supporters that the language is inappropriate, and has ALWAYS been inappropriate (the "it's a part of the character" argument wasn't exactly a stroke of genius, sorry) I also do not believe that that means the film is "filled" with all the anti-gay rhetoric that some seem to think it is. The truth is, Kevin Smith has always appeared, to me at least, to be one of the few people in this world that truly does not give a crap wether you are gay, straight, black, white, catholic or otherwise. He writes what he knows, and is the first person to say "don't listen to me, this is what I wanted to say, to everyone else, it's basically horse-shit", or something to that effect. So, while I'm not supporting the use of "inflammitory terms", I am still going to see this movie. I have found that I like to have my mind stimulated, and Mr. Smith is one of the few writers that has been able to do that in recent years. Another point, that I think has been glossed over a bit, is that this crap is coming from Jay, nobody else, just Jay. Now, one of the reviews on THIS site pointed out that it's a movie that he made for his fans. Jay has been long alluded to as being a "closet-case", especially if you read the "Chasing Dogma" comic, where Jay ended up as a fluffer in a porno, and didn't seem to mind too much. The phrase that comes to mind when I think of Jay is "I think thou dost protest too much" (i'm quotation mark happy today, sorry). Okay, I shall wrap up my fairly disjointed, stream of consciousness, lack of sleep induced rant, by saying this: Do not dismiss this movie out of hand, my favorite story about Kevin Smith is when he went into the crowd of those protesting "Dogma", and asked people what their specific gripe with the movie was. No one had an answer. They were protesting because they were told it was bad. Now I saw the movie with my fiance. This is important because she was raised Catholic, where I was raised LDS (that's Mormon, for those that don't know), and honestly, we both walked away feeling enriched. It's not a slam on religion per se, it's more like, it questions why we believe what we believe. It turns things on their ear just enough to make you think...to make you actually call into question what you really know. Honestly, after the movie, I got out my bible because if a man who questions belief structures knows THAT much about religion (and believe me, the man has some serious knowledge from the look of it) the least I can do is try to know as much. It ended up only making my faith and my own beliefs stronger. Okay, disjointed rant over now, with only one more tidbit, I promise. NightNDaze: Your movie is out there, my friend. I have seen it. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the name of it, and the guy who owned it moved to New York to do Broadway (stereotypical, I know, but he's proud, and we're proud of him). It's an English movie, about a boy who falls for a "football" player, and their following relationship. There is some "gay-bashing" in it, but only insomuch as every relationship needs it's hardships. So keep hope, good sir, it is there for the finding. I just wish I was more help in finding it.
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If you don't agree with something in a movie, DONT'T SEE IT!!!! It's stupid. Though, many people who have harsh things to say about the movie Dogma never saw it.
And Some people are bashing "liberals" as hypocrites, when , if you look at all that organized religion has done through the years, you'd know that no one is innocent.
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It did get released in theaters. I saw it in a nice quiet theater with maybe 3 other people in the audience. I think the deal with that movie was, Miramax was going to release it on Good Friday, which would've been a huge red flag, like: "FUCK YOU, CATHOLICS!! AND FOR OUR NEXT TRICK, WE'RE GONNA SHOW THE POPE BEING SODOMIZED BY ELVIS!!" So, uh, they thought better of it and pushed the release back a month or so. After all the pre-release fuss the movie pretty much came and went. I liked it. Many Catholics didn't, including Roger Ebert who basically said 'the movie is saying Catholicism would be so much better if it were Protestantism.'
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POLITICS SUCK, and the fact that you sad, pathetic people allow your life to be ruled by the liberal/conservitive distinction is sadly pathetic. POLITICS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE. AN OVERABUNDANCE OF IDIOCY FROM GLAAD IS THE ISSUE HERE. Liberalism has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. SHUT THE FUCK UP. Kevin, keep fighting the good fight against knee-jerk censorship. Later.
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Aug 01, 2001 5:25:38 AM CDT
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Free Speech just does
by jonquixote
Fictional characters who are racist, homophobic, or intolerant just shouldn't be allowed. It's just that simple. Jay is a homophobe and should be banned. But we can't stop there. Huckleberry Finn was a racist, I don't want to see him anymore. And did anybody see that American History X movie? Those characters were SKINHEADS!! I can't believe America allowed that movie to be made. And don't get me started on that Jesus fellow. Man, whoever wrote that book should be shot! He was a Jew, people! He wasn't even Christian!! In closing, I just want to say that every single left-wing 1st amendment touting commie who ever existed was a lying, sniveling little cheat, and thank God we have sensible right-wing, forever-decent perfect saints to defend our country principles. The Catholic Church is, was, and always should be ABOVE criticism and I feel much better after my lobotomy. Now, has anybody seen my jackboots?
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Aug 01, 2001 5:29:35 AM CDT
Pay no attention to the folks in G.L.A.D.D., they are nothing bu
by indiana jones
Just kidding, is that ok?
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I'm a young African male & I'm sick & tired of other black people screaming "RACISM" whenever anyone who's white says something that they just disagree with. So, with that said, let me explaing the problem with GLAAD.
Being African, growing up I was told that alot of people would hate me for no other reason than that. Of course, being a kid I didn't fully understand it at the time, but it was something I never forgot. As time went on, I saw friends & famliy die because of racism; I did become very angry for awhile & wound up wishing that all racist & prejudiced people would just be excluded from society.
Of course, that goes against the very idea of what America is "supposed" to stand for. You see, even if we disagree with one another, we still have to respect & live with each other. we have to show tolerance to those who would hate us. Believe me, I've been told that all my life, and it's pretty fucking hard to accept that even though there are groups out there whose whole purpose is to degrade, murder and/or abuse your "KIND" (for lack of a better term), you must rise above it. You must let those people be and live your own life. They're not right for what they're saying, but they have the right to say it.
Boy, that shit is so much easier to tell someone to do than it is to experience it yourself. I don't agree with the "Teachings" (I use that term very loosely) of the KKK or Aryan Nation or any other hate group...but they do have a right to say what they say--that's America. What they don't have the right to do is committ violence on people. That's illegial.
Now, where GLAAD is concerned. See I believe GLAAD & every other "WATCHGROUP" out there don't want to preach tolerance. I think GLAAD wants to force acceptance down our collective throats. Every time I see a movie that even utters the word FAGGOT, here comes GLAAD complaining & bitching about how it's promoting homophobia. Bullshit. I've seen many movies where the word NIGGER is used & I don't see anyone having a problem with that ('Course, since it mostly comes from black films that point is kinda mute). I'm talking about when it didn't pertain to the story, when it could've very easily been left out or re-written and nothing would've been lost.
A few ex:
FULL METAL JACKET - One white character tells this joke to another white character, "How do you stop 5 black guys from raping a white woman?" "Throw them a basketball."
Now considering that I loved FMJ, I was very upset by this joke b/c it was very cruel. But in the context that the story took place...could or is this the way that people in the military talked to each other? You're dam right it is! Therefore, I accept the line. Did it have to be in the movie? No, but it was, and that's something I'll just have to accept.
Ex #2:
THE SHINING - When the caretaker (GRADY) tells Jack that his son is attempting to bring in an outsider to the hotel, he tells Jack that it's the NIGGER COOK. I know that evil is always supposed to talk poorly about everything, but was this line truly necessary? Was Jack a racist character & Grady was trying to play on his feelings? I don't give a shit if that was in the book or not b/c Kubrick didn't really follow the book so that doesn't matter. It's there, I deal.
Incidentally, that's two KUBRICK movies in which I felt that both those lines could've been excluded and the movie wouldn't have suffered. But I don't think KUBRICK was a racist for leaving them in. I don't feel that he should contribute money to some fund.
Ex #3:
GOODFELLAS - At one point when Lorraine Braco's character is worried that her husband (Ray Liotta) is going to get caught, he tells her not to worry, why? 'Cause only "NIGGER Stick-up men get caught." This movie was a portrait of an Italian mob family. Was it necessary? Could the movie have done w/o the line? Probably, but that's how Henry Hill talked & that's what's represented on screen. I accept that & deal. I don't think that Martin Scorcese is a racist and needs to donate money to a fund.
This is my point. In life, different people talk differently. If you are going to reflect life-or a certain part of life, or your childhood, or anything--you are going to write about what you know. If the people you grew up around always used racial slurs & you're making a movie about your upbringing...stands to reason that they'll be racial slurs in the movie that reflects your life.
I remember this story a few years ago when the Bruce Willis movie named THE JAKAL came out. Apparently during the test screening, Bruce's character is in a gay bar & approached by a gay man. B/c his character is such a cold blooded killer, Bruce shoots the gay man for coming on to him. Story goes that the test audience cheered that scene. GLAAD found out, got pissed & the filmakers were forced to cut it b/c they didn't want to promote violence on homos.
That's ridiculous! If the audience cheered a gay man being shot, that's not the fault of the filmakers! GLAAD's problem was with the audience, not the studio. But rather than accept that there are people on this planet that are like that, they quickly blamed the studio and threated to boycott if the scene wasn't removed. Nonsense!
Eventually, I truly believe that the wonderful medium known as cinema will no longer exist. If you can't reflect what happens in real life, no wonder we see the same crap over & over in the theaters like we did this summer. Take away every film that might've offended someone and you'd lose some all time greats:
DO THE RIGHT THING
MALCOLM X
SAVING PRIVATE RYAN
AMISTAD
THE COLOR PURPLE
BOYZ IN THE HOOD
PYSCHO
MEAN STREETS
FORREST GUMP
PULP FICTION
And the list goes on and on. It's not just films about race that could be banned but everything: sex, violence, lust, forbidden romances, politics, topics, etc. Someone somewhere could find anything wrong with the above mentioned flicks. But what would be the point?
We're suppose to teach tolerance. We can't fight intolerance with intolerance. And I'll be damned if we'll ever get anywhere by not acknowledging what really goes on in life. Ignoring something doesn't make it go away. People are fucked up. People make movies. People write scripts. People produce. Those things will be a reflection of the people who produced them...end of story. We may not always like it, but as long as it's not being done to promote crime, we should learn to tolerate it. That's what America is suppose to be about. Live and let live right?
I don't like everything around me, but I know the difference between something being offensive & something I just don't like. I learned to deal, that doesn't mean that I do nothing, but I don't go around bitching & complaining all day either. I learned that the world will never be what I would like it to be if I attempt to FORCE it to accept me. If people want to accept me--fine, but I'm not gonna force you to.
Kevin Smith is not trying to offend anyone. He made a movie. Perhaps his film contains a few words that GLAAD isn't happy with, guess what? Kevin Smith wasn't put on this planet to make the people of GLAAD happy. So there's a couple of things in his movie that GLAAD wishes weren't there...I know how they feel.
But if there's one thing I've learned in life it's this: Things don't always go the way you'd like...deal with it.
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As a queer that was lucky enough to score a pass to a test screening of J&SBSB, I can honestly say there were no more uses of the word "fag", "queer", or any other derogatory terms than I or my (gay & straight) use around each other in everyday life. Perhaps we fags that find GLAAD's response a tad ridiculous should let them know that they DO NOT represent us in this matter....
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Fags.
Snoogans,
Zubalove -
Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident and also posted on the Internet: -
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a
lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 st ates that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
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I side with GLAAD in their response to this issue. I'm just sorry it is Kevin Smith and "Jay and Silent Bob" that got caught in the crossfire. The problem that GLAAD has with this issue is that the terms "gay" and "fag" are tossed around as a put down by most of heterosexual society, as in "That's so gay" or "Don't be a fag" as if there is something wrong with being gay in the first place. GLAAD is trying to get Hollywood and the media to stop reinforcing these negative affirmations of these derogatory terms. You don't see many film makers today using the same derogatory euphamisms for blacks or hispanics as blatantly as you do for homosexuals. There is a level of sensitivity when the words "Nigger", "Jungle Bunny", "Porch Monkey", "Wet Back", "Spic", "Dago", "Wop", or "Kyke" are tossed around but "Fag" is okay. By allowing these types of macho, testosterone re-inforcing forms of gay bashing to continue and influence the underdeveloped minds of today's role model starved pre-teen youths, we are stunting the growth of society and the acceptance of gays and lesbians in the US today. I know Kevin Smith is gay friendly and showed his innept understanding of that life in "Chasing Amy", but he could have set an example and at least shown a little restraint. I am looking forward to seeing "J&SBSB" this month and will not let this subject color my enjoyment but thought I had to share the "gay guy's"point of view.
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I'm sorry Bullworth, but Kevin Smith's candid use of the words "fag" & "gay" is hardly as inflammatory as saying Homosexual people are a "mistake". (as Dr. Laura has stated on several occasions) While I agree with your ever-so-small point of the use of there words not helping homophobia ... I'm pretty darn sure that Kevin didn't set out to have people raise up their pitchforks and torches against gay-people. Basically it's a joke "and" another case of being just too darn sensitive in these chokingly PC times we live in.
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What is happening to our country? We've got liberals screaming tolerance for all but they just won't have anything to do with ideas that don't suit their agenda (i.e. the people that don't think homosexuality is something to be accepted in the mainstream...). On the other hand, we have conservatives that generally lack compassion amd are apt to let basic HUMAN rights slip by. Will we ever realize that accepting ideas and tolerating them are two completely different things?
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Maybe this free publicity will help Smith overcome the hideous choice of a title for his movie. He couldn't have planned a better reaction to give a boost to this flop-in-the-making.
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what basic human rights to conservatives let slip by?
Shesh.......actually this whole thing is a gas......I love seeing lefties getting in the...well you know. -
It is disgusting and unfair to compare Kevin Smith to Matthew Shepard's killers. As someone posted before, there's a difference between making a movie with a few gay jokes and actually killing someone. It's not even as if there's anything promoting hurting homosexuals in the movie, from what was written about Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. What bothers me the most is that the gay community is taking on those slurs. Because GLAAD is lashing out about a few gay jokes in a movie, does this mean feminist groups are now going to protest any movie in which male characters refer to each other as "bitches"? I would think not. They appear to have distanced themselves from any acceptance of the word "bitch" to imply "woman." As a bi-racial male, I endure intolerance from members of both races to which I belong, so don't think I don't know about hatred. But it bothers me just as much when black people use "nigger" as when any other race uses it. So for the gay community to accept the word "fag" and acknowledge its reference to them is just as ridiculous. In most circles, homosexual slurs are just as rampant as slurs against the mentally ill or challenged. How many times have you referred to someone as "crazy" or "retarded" or "a nutcase"? It's a similar thing. Those insults have been so thrown around in our society for so many years that their initial meanings have essentially been stripped away. They are used to insult someone, generally speaking, by calling the recipient something that they are not. I have been witness to gay people insulting each other by calling each other "heteros" and "breeders." Is that out of defense for all the gay bashing that they may have endured in their lives? Possibly. Does that make it OK? Not at all. We live in a world where people feel that, if they are oppressed, they can oppress others and get away with it. This is not so. So if anyone is going to start throwing stones, make sure that you haven't sinned. Just like George Carlin said, "Your birth certificate is your proof of guilt."
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I think that conservatives, and their pro-business tendencies, have a tendency of putting machinations and corporations before people sometimes. I said apt, and, in retrospect, using Human rights in this context was much too strong. I apologize. I dislike "liberals" and "conservatives" equally, but I have plenty of liberal AND conservative ideas. (I used caps b/c i dunno how to italicize.)
P.S. I do like Kevin SMith -
Wow, never have there been a bigger pack of assholes in one talkback before. It's usually something funny that I'll read, but this is too fun to keep quite about. THE CHARACTER OF JAY IS A HOMOPHOBE, not Kevin Smith, granted Smith did write the character, but that doesn't make him the homophobe, that would be like saying Dr. Seuss was a trouble making 'Cat in the Hat', or Stephen King was the biggest supporter of mass murder since Attila the hun for frigs sake. The Character IS NOT a representation of the writer.
There has to be good AND bad people in a story. Darth Vader cut off his own sons hand for crying out loud, should we now get pissed at George Lucas for supporting beating your kids? Should John Wayne be exumed and left for the necrophiles cause he hated Indians (sorry, Native Americans, no wait, I'm Canadian, Native North Americans, fuck it, Indians it is, yes I have an Indian friend, and yes he does call himself an Indian, so fuck off) in some of his films, The Searchers would, of course, have been the greatest of offenses, since he takes great joy in killin them apache. These are characters, Kevin Smith didn't bash Catholics, because he IS FRIGGIN Catholic, he attends church for cryin out loud, Dogma was an exploration of his feelings about HIS religion.
In order to explore the human experience you must look at both the bad AND the good, one doesn't exist without the other. Jay is pretty bad, Silent Bob isn't much better, it's the other people in the film that make up the good part of a Smith movie, and any other story EVER told, the bad guys are bad, they say bad words, do bad things, and the good guys are the redemption of all that, and show that it's wrong to do that. Then again, before you can make any judgement like this, you have to SEE THE FUCKING MOVIE you pack of assholes. -
That fat bastard is making enemies right and left. Isn't it enough that Kev had trouble with Lesibian groups after Chasing Amy? (They were accussing the movie of making the statement that all Lesibians are waiting for is the right guy) These groups need to lighten up. I don't know for sure, but I think that Mr Smith isn't loking to make any statement, just trying to make a movie. A movie that, let's face it, has something to offend everybody.
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It doesn't mean much, but I'm gay and I think this type of material is funny. The world should lighten up a little.
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Which is a worse sentiment, the scientifically worded "Homosexuals are an abomination", said by a real life personality whom people turn to for advice, or a fictional character, obviously a moron, who says, "Dude, you're a fag" ? *** Maybe the point is best illustrated by the word "Jew," which can be used without malice, (many Jews were slaughtered by the Third Reich or Dude, I didn't know Whoopi Goldberg is a Jew),or laced with bile (that Jew ripped me off! or No daughter of mine is going to marry a Jew!). *** Anyways, GLAAD, like many other action or interest groups, has a tendency to overreact whenever anything potentially offensive, or that may portray one of their members in a less-than-perfect ligh. Unfortunately, this lessens the weight of their comments when a real offense is commited. But at any rate, I highly doubt Kevin Smith is going to lose any sleep over the allegations, and Miramax is probably smiling over the free publicity.
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To begin with, Dr. Laura is an idiot. However, the fact she is on a talk show does not make her opinion any more dangerous (oops, you guys never proved that, did you?) or worthy of censorship. Last time I checked, we still think of ourselves as a free society with an open exchange of ideas. If any speech should be protected, it should be those of people like Dr. Laura, who are actually speaking ideas. With all that said, you liberals are hypocrites either because 1)you're going after Dr. Laura, but not Smith, whose target audience is more younger and whom he could have an impact on; or 2)because you preach and preen about the First Amendment, yet would raise GLAAD's banner here. Finally, you're all a bunch of small time whiners; your lives are pretty much worthless, so you go after something bigger than you - like the Catholic Church - for strokes. Grow up, get your fat ass off the computer seat, like I'm about to do.
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Aug 01, 2001 7:02:37 AM CDT
"unless you are mentally a child, the humor in the film should b
by soylentphil
There's the rub, eh, Harry/Mark Ebner/whoever? And to answer the earlier post from Legolas - "When will people realize that boycotting/protesting things only adds fuel to the fire to go see/do/experience whatever the target is?" I'm pretty sure Kevin Smith has realized it.
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weren't all the books originally burned because each one had something that offended someone. So they kept pulling a book for everyone that was offended and int he end there was nothing left? Thats a funnier and truer switch than the government or whatever doing it. Us and our desire to constantly "evolve" sociologically may be our own worst enemy.
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To clear up some weak-ass bulls**t that some idiots have been posting: 1) I think there's a wee bit of difference between Dr. Laura saying homosexuality is an affront to God, and a Kevin Smith character who has been consistantly portrayed as a rude imbecile anyway (emphasis on character, i.e. someone who is not real) calling his best friend 'fag' in a semi-endearing fashion (as much as Jay can express reall affection for anybody). So I don't really see any problem in defending one but not the other; 2) Dogma did not in any way defame Catholicism. Poked a little fun at the Catholic Church as an institution, but that's about it. Kevin Smith never 'attacked' the church. If anything he showed a great deal of respect for it by treating their beliefs as a topic for serious thought and conjecture. Nor do I recall a single altar boy joke in the entire film. 3) Please explain to me what this has to do with your arbitrary definitions of 'left' and 'right', those of you using the terms. Does disagreeing with both the Catholic League and GLAAD make me 'left' or 'right'? I know disagreeing with you makes me 'smart', but that's not really the issue.
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some people here are dumb beyond words. first off, chasing amy was filled with gay characters, not one. so if you dont know what youre talking about, shut the hell up. of the four main characters, 2 were gay, and 1 was questionablly gay. if you cant do math, thats more than 1.
also, has anyone even mentioned that kevin smiths own BROTHER is gay? think about that before you go off on a tirade about how homophobic he is. he has a great relationship with his brother.
and since when do mostly african american use the word nigger and bitch? thats moronic to say the say, and at worst, racist.
and with the liberal bashing, thats funny. funny that you throw angry words at an entire group of people. that only shows your own little mindedness and ignorance. yes justice41, im talking to you.
i have gay friends. they call me fag all the time. i have black friends who call me nigger. i call my gay friends fag and my black friends nigger. sometimes it really is nothing more than a term of affection and respect, no matter what the wackos here want you to believe.
and its nothing like dr laura, who actually did use the word 'fag' thank you very much. i met her with a gay friend of mine, and she told us 'i hope the fags stop bitching about me. they wont like it when i burn their asses' dr laura was a hypocrite, a liar, a cheat, and a very angry person who had contempt and hate for anyone and everyone she didnt see as deserving. kevin smith is an overweight normal guy who wants to have fun and tell some jokes and make people laugh. there, my friends, is a difference. -
Man, anytime you can get free publicity like that, it's a beautiful thing. Lucky man, that Kevin Smith. Funniest part of groups raising a stink - it only raises awareness of a film. Their complaining puts the film on people's lips.
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I cant believe all the people in this forum that are bashing Smith for a movie they havent even seen yet...........Damn...in this day and age you would think there would be less mindless sheep willing to follow what others say and more who would hold out "thier" own opinion until they had a chance to see what their bitching about.
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Kevin's best buddy Vincent P. is gay. Well, when he drinks, anyway.
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Before I start this post I want to say that I am not affiliated with any political party. I am a registered Independant who voted for Nader, supports the politics of Jesse Ventura and supported Clinton's impeachment. My ex-Girlfriend is a liberal Democrat who is now in Africa with the Peace Corps, and my best friend is a conservative Mormon in Idaho. I have no loyalties to GLAAD or Dr. Laura, I hate Eminem but I support his right to free speech, and I am a fan of Kevin Smith. Now, after all that, I have to say the painfully obvious conclusion to be drawn here is that all of you are hypocrites. Conservatives and Liberals alike. I hated the things Dr. Laura said but I never supported GLAAD's attack against her, and I don't support their attack against Smith either. For all you conservatives who like to point fingers and say Smith is a homophobe....have you WATCHED his movies? They feature a homophobic (and possibly closeted gay) character named Jay who is the consistent butt of the joke. Sure, he uses the word "fag" but he has never been presented as a character worth respecting. You find it so funny that GLAAD is attacking a "liberal" now, but get your facts straight before you throw accusations. And to all you liberals, you may love Kevin Smith and you may be mad at GLAAD for this latest attack, but I would bet you all lined up to sign the Stop Dr. Laura petitions. Freedom of speech is a two way street. A free society is a messy one, and people will be offended from time to time, and a few will even be seriously hurt. It's a damn shame, but what is your alternative? Singapore? the Soviet Union? Jesus Christ, just be glad you live in a country where you are free to be offended. Anyway, that's it. Ventura 2004! --- -GageCreed
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Somethings get you going...you just can't deny that....but holy shit....we've got Racism, homophobia, Anti-Catholocism...and even a whole liberal conservative smack down going on here...............it's made for some pretty damn good reading....I enjoy these kinds of posts because youo can sort of look at it like a microcosm of society...how many racists do we have here tonight, how many intorerant jerks, baters, and trolls are lurking around?...how many cool, enlightened folk rushing to back a worthy cause or ideal....AICN is a pretty good place to see all of it at the same time....Now let's be honest here folks....anyone with half a brain knows that none of Kevin Smith's movies are anti-gay....if they don't then it's obvious they haven't checked out chasing amy..and if they haven't done that, then I suppose ignorance is bliss...but it's also annoying to those of us in the know. One thing I really can't stand is homophobia and racism, I don't really dig the eminem stuff and i dislike hearing racis jokes..my wife is east indian (and catholic) and when you share a life with someone that has been called Paky and worse you become very sensitive to these things (let alone the fact that I've got german parents and had to put up with being called a nazi as a kid) but all that aside, Kevin Smiths movies are COMPLETELY benign...there's just NO hatred agenda here folks...get a clue...second, conservatives and liberals...let's face it...there is no such thing...it's rich and poor...if anyone thinks for a second that there is ANY difference between a republican in office or a democrat, they're fooling themselves...they all do the same things...they're all in the same private clubs...(sorry to be so harsh...but it seems painfully obvious to me that when you get high up enough in public office...you're all playing on the same team)...As for anti catholocism vibe ....I also agree with one of the posters that stated that the Catholic church is rife with corruption....of course it is...any large empire is going to be....but on the other hand, since i don't belong to it, and only know the most trivial aspects to it, i can't slam it too much....there are plent of good aspects to the catholic church as well...My wife is catholic, and she's awesome..so how bad can it be?...anyhow...it's been a lovely talkback, and i've enjoyed reading your opinions very much...hope you all have a good day....cheers..
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Two facts about me: I consider myself to be a conservative, and I also consider myself to be a great fan of Kevin Smith's. Is there something wrong with that? I didn't find anything offensive about Dogma, or Chasing Amy (which I saw 7 times in the theater), or any of Smith's work. I realize that Smith presents liberal views and alternative lifestyles, but I don't see how that should affect my enjoyment of his product. You didn't hear any race groups or Star Wars fans crying discrimination after Hooper X's little rant about the trilogy's white supremist overtones in "Amy," did you? I happen to love Star Wars, as well as certain facets of African-American culture, and I was laughing harder than anyone.
Jay's saying "gay" and "fag" constantly is not defamatory or inflammatory, as long as you understand the context. I used to sit at the lunch table for an entire year and tell my friends, "you're gay." None of them were, and none of them questioned it, and there were no lasting psychological effects. I have a number of homosexual friends, and their sexuality is their business. Personally, I don't think I would be very... *ahem*... comfortable engaging in homosexual activity, but if they like it, that's cool.
Just because I call something gay doesn't mean I think "gay" equals "bad." Jay might, but Jay's an idiot. Not exactly a role model. And I'd say 99% of viewers realize that and laugh at his stupidity rather than agree with his perceptivity. Smith has said that Jay is basically a caricature of Jason Mewes as a teenager. Jay is the boy idiot who just refuses to grow up, and this movie will be out last great chance to revel in that wonderfully blissful developmental stage of immaturity which is all too fleeting. Not to remain there, just to look back with fondness. Wether or not you choose to enjoy it, that's up to you. Just don't question our choice to enjoy it. That goes for both extremes, bible fuckers and ass beaters alike. Wait, scratch that, reverse it.
At any rate, everybody just needs to respect everyine else's God-given right to be an asshole. I may hate Hillary Clinton, but that doesn't stop me from sleeping next to one of the people responsible for electing her. Peoples is peoples. Let it be. -
So does this mean that from now on every character in any form of media must be sensitive, tolerant, and kind to animals? Using "fag" and "gay" as insults is quite common outside of movies, whether it's right or wrong. If certain characters, like Jay, are to seem realistic, they will talk like this. Sure, gay-bashing is wrong. So is murder. Even Disney chartoons have people getting killed. These are works of fiction, children. There's no need to get upset.
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Using the word 'fag' is a far cry from Eminem talking about beating up/killing someone because they are a "fag or a lez" or Dr. Laura Mengele calling homosexuals "biological errors."
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It just pisses me off to no end how every one of the 1,205,345,693 different activist or rights groups in this country have to feel like they are the sole gaurdians of the American public's interest and morality. The problem in this land is simple... everyone will not mind their own f'ing buisness!
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Aug 01, 2001 7:46:11 AM CDT
To NightNDaze, MartinBlank, XTheCrovvx, Grail42, SkyJedi and Mp3
by special_ed
My hats off to you. That was eloquently written and I couldn't have said it any better. Everybody has the right to do or say anything within the law, that's the price we pay for our freedoms. If every movie had to get the "seal of approval" from every special interest group, we'd end-up with nothing more than Little House on the Prairie (although I'll admit I did watch that show), but who wants a multi-plex theater filled with that?
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please write out the whole lyric where eminem says he will or should kill someone because they are gay and leave it in the context of the lines before and after it. If you're not talking out of your ass you should be able to do that. Its funny how Harry and others talk about people when all they know is what they hear. Sort of like with this film that NO ONE or noone has seen! And Dr Laura is a moron as a card carrying member of CLIT I can attest to that.
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This is the United Fucking States of America, or at least it was when I woke up this Morning.
Get a Grip, and I don't mean on your crotch.
Shut the Fuck up already. There's real discrimination out there, like that against Blacks, Jews Arabs and Aisains. You Freaks don't count. You want to Butt Fuck another Guy, thats up to you but don't broadcast it to us, we don't give a F.U.C.K. -
These days, most of our entertainment is extremely disposable. The public is content to file into a movie theater, allow crap like an Adam Sandler film to flicker in front of their eyes for two hours and than leave the theater without giving the movie a second thought. For all they get out of the experience they might have stayed in the parking lot, watched oil rainbows swirling in a puddle and saved themselves a couple of bucks. Fortunately, Kevin's movies, especially "Chasing Amy" and "Dogma", have some thought behind them. Anytime some one asks about them, I invariably wind up in a long conversation discussing various topics and themes covered in these films. When was the last time you had an in-depth conversation about subtext in "Tomb Rider" or "The Fast and the Furious"?
When I read Kevin's post, I went through a number of emotions. First, I was saddened and annoyed that an organization like GLAAD would accuse Smith of being homophobic. Anyone who has read even a short description of what "Chasing Amy" is about would scoff at such an accusation. Jay is obviously his "Archie Bunker" character. Look at the cut scene from "Dogma" where he confronts the gang in the strip club. I didn't hear anything about the NAACP strong-arming Smith into dropping this bit from the film.
It has been pointed out that Dr. Laura's television show was scuttled in part by GLAAD for her homophobic comments and she didn't even use the words "fag" or "gay". Unfortunately, what people realize is that it's about context. What Dr. Laura said was in a hateful and intolerant manner, disguised as scientific fact. (For more on this particular tactic see German history circa the mid 1930s.). Kevin's is obviously in a more satirical context. As Kevin himself has explained, Jay's character has evolved into a satirization of cool, male, macho preening. By adding the fact that Jay on some level might be wrestling with the possibility that he is gay, not only adds depth to the character, but brings in another layer of satire
(Brief aside: As someone who earns part of my living as a writer, I find it annoying that certain small groups seem to want to limit my usage of certain words. Black people can use the word "nigger" or "niggah" but a white boy like me can't. Where was the "happy people" lobby when the homosexuals took over the term "gay?")
As I continued reading and saw that Kevin and the GLAAD spokesman were able to talk and seemed to come to some sort of agreement. "Well, ridiculous nonsense adverted," thought I happily.
Then I continued on to read about Kevin being questioned by the EW reporter a few days later and that's when I got mad. First of all, it made me question the sincerity of the GLAAD reps phone call. Did he talk to Kevin to purposely lull him into a false sense of security before letting other national news outlets sandbag him? I don't know the guy personally, so I can't say that he is a sneaky creep or not, but the facts to this observer don't look favorable. If anything, the donation Kevin made winds up looking like extortion. And worse is the fact that it also makes the donation, no matter what spirit it was really offered in, now look like an admission of guilt on Smith's part.
Another thing that totally pisses me off is the amount of, presumably, right wing leaning people who have jumped up and started laughing at Smith and accusing the Liberal Hollywood Media Elite of being hypocrites. Well let me tell all of you something, EVERYBODY has an agenda and the Left has no corner on the hypocrisy market.
I really believe that what is needed in this country is strong education on how to watch television and movies. (And I'm not just talking about turning your cell phone off in the theater either.) So many people today just take their entertainment at face value. "Oh look, he just insulted a black guy, I guess that's an acceptable thing to do." Seldom it seems that people miss a larger, underlying theme to such a situation as above. If more people actually thought about what they watched instead of using it as a time killer before they go off with their dates for a few drinks and a screw, perhaps Hollywood would stop churning out an old crap and make more decent films.
It's like a wise man once said, "Those in most desperate need of getting the joke seldom do."
But that's just throwing my two cents worth here as a straight, white guy who likes a good joke no matter at whose expense.
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I'm an open minded moderate who smells hypocracy when it stinks. Harvey Weinstein is indeed a hypocrite. His truely awful and somewhat homophobic Scary Movie made $150 million at the Box office then he donates his money to liberal Democrats who support gay causes. And any one, either conservative or liberal, who is for censoring anything from a movie is the biggest hypocrite. The first amendment must be protected from both these interest groups who think they have a real grasp on society. They don't.
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A couple more points I want to make: as much as I don't think KS or his movies are homophobic, I also don't see how "Dogma" is anti-Catholic. Kevin Smith has acknowledged that he is, in fact, Catholic, and I think Dogma was, in a weird way, a love letter to God and his religion. Sure he questions some of the teachings and the, um, *dogma*, but I think it was clear to me from that movie that in his heart he is a very spiritual person. And to Alonzo Hawk, you may not give a F.U.C.K. about homophobia, but let me assure you that it is a very real problem and a lot of people do give a F.U.C.K. You may dismiss gay people as "freaks," and that means YOU are the homophobe, not Kevin Smith. I don't agree with GLAAD's crusade here any more than you do, but I respect the fact that they are sticking up for a genuinally discriminated-against group of people.
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Is there any real surprise GLAAD's deciding to wade back in to the fray against Kevin? They've had their knickers in a twist ever since "Chasing Amy", where they accused Smith of asserting a lesbian could change her sexuality if she "met the right fellah". Without expounding on the needless debate, this controversy will enivitably bring attention to the film and the old pattern will assert itself: 1)a group x naysays a piece of art because it offends them. 2) the rest of the population goes to see what the fuss is about. 3) the artist is allowed to make a bajillion dollars and continue to piss off said group.______________ Keep in mind this NOT a left/right issue (lest I remind everyone of DOGMA or for that matter the show "Sensation" in NYC which made conservatives angry?). This is yet another case of a hyper-PC group canibalizing another group who would otherwise sympathize with their plight. It's not the first time and it won't be the last for Smith, who despite controversy, will pull through. While 2% threatens a boycot, the 30% demographic of the population its marketed to will make Smith another mint. And that is why I love America.
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It makes me sick when organizations like this present rediculous accusations just to gain public publicity. Give me a fucking break. Watch the movie for what it is -- a damn movie. Christ, learn to take a joke you bloated fucks with too much time and money.
That's all I have to say, now let me go throw up. -
Fair enough. We disagree slightly, but life goes on.
I think this whole thing is an excellent exericise into Free Speech/First Ammendment and Political Correctness. I dislike Kevin Smith, but he's a total commie-lib. By GLADD doing this, they are showing what there true agenda is. You don't believe in homosexulaity? You're practicing hate speech. bullshit -
Sorry, that 'boycott it and they will come' crap should really be put to rest. Last Temptation of Christ made bupkus at the box office. Chasing Amy didn't break $20 million domestic. Dogma did marginally better, but it was still nowhere near $100 million, which is the benchmark these days for even a minor hit. The idea that one group boycotting a film will bring the masses in droves to see what it's all about is just silly, and has been thoroughly discredited by history.
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Let's debunk another one. GLAAD had nothing to do with Dr. Laura getting cancelled. It was a ratings flop. It couldn't even pull in a 2 share (even when most markets gave it the prime lead-in spot just before Oprah.) Faced with contractually having to run the show for an entire season, most stations moved it to 2:00 am where it continues to wither and die. Television is a much different market than Radio. Rush Limbaugh had similar problems transitioning his radio show to TV. It too lasted only one season, not because of some liberal cabal but because of purely capitalistic ones, it didn't get any ratings. I have no political axe to grind here, I just want to set the record straight.
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Ridiculous. It is a well known fact that Kevin Smith and Jason Mewes' comments in a movie are purely comedy. Anyone with half of a brain could tell you that. The real threat to homosexuals is
from extremist groups, particular
religious denominations and their
sympathetic political puppets who
use the bible to condemn them and
their lifestyle. GLAAD needs to
distinguish between the real threat and the supposed threat.
Snoogans. -
Aug 01, 2001 8:44:23 AM CDT
I'm GAY and Kevin Smith is one of my heroes! I'm embarrassed by
by southern crane
Didn't any of these GLAAD people see Chasing Amy? Man, if anything, Smith makes fun of the USE of misdirected terms like "fag" and "gay".
Sure, Kevin walks a very fine line...anyone who saw the Clerks cartoon has seen examples there, but I've never had any impression that gays or lesbians were being made fun of or "attacked" in ANY way by his work. Even in his Clerks (movie) commentary, he says he regrets the harshness with which Jay calls Dante a "cock-smoking FAGGIT!" or something. GET OF HIS CASE! REVOKE MY GAY I.D. IF YOU HAVE TO!!! KEVIN SMITH SUPPORTS GAYS AND LESBIANS!!!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!! -
The people on both sides of this argument need to learn their own language. The spelling and grammar used in this thread indicate the lowbrow nature of those arguing both sides. What a wonderful example of the narcissistic sludge that has crawled out of our schools recently. I doubt any of you have the ability to contemplate this issue beyond its shiny surface. Please return to your Green Party meetings or tune your radios to Dr. Laura.
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The American Heritage dictionary defines "liberal" as follows. "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry." The use of the term "liberal" as a perjorative just exposes the user's own narrow and dogmatic political or social views. On the other hand, when a so-called liberal group attempts to limit free speech by irresponsibly and unfairly attacking words or statements out of context, thay are, indeed, being hypocrites. This attack on Kevin Smith is wrong, as was a recent protest against Sarah Silverman for allegedly "racist" statements she made on Conan O'Brian. Much as I hate to admit it, Dr. Laura was very unfairly treated by the media and her being driven off tv was no moral victory. I can't stand the woman, but her right to say what she believes is as sacred as anybody else's. I'm a proud liberal and always will be, but I will always protest any attempt to limit freedom of expression, whether from the left or the right.
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That's what my gay friends tell me anyway. Remember when Jeff Spicoli tell Stu Nahan about the competition on the surfing circuit? "Those guys are fags!" I still crack up whenever I hear that one. No one back in, when was it, the ancient days of 1982 seemed to even blink an eyeball at that one. Back off Kevin, man. Hmmm, lemme see....if you don't like it....DON'T FUCKING WATCH IT!!! Seems simple enough if you think it through. If you want to talk about abominations before God, I think hunger (preventable) disease (mostly preventable) and the environment (hopefully reversable) occupy more of God's mind than what Kevin, GLADD or anyone the fuck else wants you to believe is on God's agenda. Let Kevin make his movies, let me enjoy them (or not, it's my choice) and piss on you if you're so pious that you can't handle a little name calling. The Colonel suggests a very liberal dose of Ezra Brooks (or any other suitable 90 proof Bourbon) and a very large spliff (again, preferably from the great Commonwealth of Kentucky) and wake up to the fact that this is now 2001 and people will be people and that's that. Where was I going with that? Is anybody still reading? Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody even care? For me, first I'm going to the Austrailian Internationals, then me & Mick are gonna wing on over to London and jam with the Stones! PS-Kevin, you pretty much rule. Can I have a job?
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for stating my thoughts, and typing them out in better words than I could have. But I will add a few extra points. 1) a guy calling someone a fag is the same as calling them a girl, it isn't derogatory to gays or women 2) I would like to know how many religious people chose their religion, and how many are whatever their parents were? I think the vast majority of people don't chose between religions (or none). If everyone had to learn about all religions and their history/origin as well as beliefs, I think people would think most religions are absurd. But that's not the case, so people will defend their religion, though they didn't choose it as the most logical, and use the things they like about it to to support it and disregard those things they don't like about it as not meant to be taken literally or outdated. Thank yooouuuuuu.
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Aug 01, 2001 9:17:43 AM CDT
Kevin Smith is gay. Come out now, Kevin, and end this destrutiv
by the_lion
Seriously, no hetero male would have written the end of CHASHING AMY the way Smith did. Aka, he's at least half homo. Therefore, if he comes out, the gay community can forgive him. Afterall, don't hardcore gays run around calling each other "fag" and "sweetheart" and "queen" and stuff? Just like blacks with "nigga." If you're gay you can say it, if not they'll come after you with a nail file. Kevin: come out, come out,wherever you are! ---------The_Lion
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G.L.A.A.D. sucks, but the "Jay and Silent Bob" thing is a tired shtick that needs to just go away. I don't know if I'm the only person in creation that found Clerks to be just mildly amusing, Mall Rats to be okay, never saw Chasing Amy, and found Dogma boring and predictable, but Kevin Smith needs to move on!
The sad thing is that he has the potential to be really good, but everything Mr. Smith does now falls under the "It Was Only Slightly Funny The First Time Around, So Stop It!" category.
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern had their moments in Hamlet, but they would have become quite annoying if they appeared in EVERYTHING that Shakespeare had written. Am I wrong?
With that said, G.L.A.A.D. should go away too...far, far away. It is THEIR intolerance that is making this world put up a shield to their causes, not Kevin Smith's. Leave Kevin Smith alone and let him get back to his "Green Lantern Smokes a Blunt and Farts with Jay and Silent Bob" chapter...or whatever piece of literary genius he is currently penning. Just leave him alone.
Oh and G.L.A.A.D., leave the Boy Scouts alone too. Just a thought.
L.X.I.
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.......You make a very good point. I think it's a mistake to assume GLAAD speaks for all gay people all the time. I'm Jewish but I don't agree with fully half of what the Anti Defamation League says.
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Is using homophobic language wrong of Mr. Smith? Yes, because it's still putting the word out there for people to see. But is Kevin Smith an evil man who wants to destroy gay people everywhere? Hell no! And anybody who says otherwise should go and fucking watch Chasing Amy. He has about 4 "gay" characters in there, all of which are portrayed as human beings.
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Words AREN'T racist...behavior and actions are.....is every rapper that says "nigger" or "nigga" in a rap song trying to push down or bring hate towards a race...NO and by the way let's not fuck up America more by being black/white about liberals/conservatives ...because we all have different views on different issues.
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The more I see of most people online, the better I like my dog. The simple fact is, we're not getting more racist as a nation, we're getting more me-ist. Purposefully or not, too many of us our teaching each new generation of our youth that they are THE FUCKING EPICENTER OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE, that everything revolves around them, that it's all about me me me, and to hell with everyone else. We don't just hate people of different colors or sexual orientation anymore -- we hate everybody. Because they're in our way in some arcane, indefinable way. Because, like the mountain, they're there. We're a nation of haters. And that's gotta be the most ironic thing of all. Cuz it's all about the love, baybee.
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The truth is that GLAAD is making itself look dumb. Kevin Smith uses the words "gay" and "fag" because, whether it be right or wrong, those are words that the youth and sometimes adults of America use. He's not trying to go out there and hurt homosexuals, we know that. Look at Chasing Amy. The truth is, GLAAD just needs to lighten up. If some idiot is going to go and hate gay people because they saw a movie, then they are already screwed up and wouldn't have needed a movie in order to hate.
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I give you...Basic Instinct. Had groups going bonkers and it made serious coin.
The point isn't that Chasing Amy shoulda been a hit because some sensistive groups complained, but that it raised awareness of the film. Amy was made on a shoestring budget and pulled in 20 M in US theaters. Not a bad showing for a film with a sensitive topic and that never saw wide release.
Jay and Silent Bob has received zero buzz this summer. Everybody talks about useless banal films like POTA and Fast and the Furious and Pearl Harbor. At least this controversy is generating some press on the film. The hubbub may not drive people to theaters, but it may. I would rather take the chance that a nothing film with zero advertising might get more word-of-mouth from bad press, then to have the film slip away into obscurity like most of this summer's dreck. Additionally, has anyone looked at home vide rentals on those controversial films that peetered at the box office? As even Smith admits with his Mallrats failure, the film found a huge fanbase on video, like other bombs.******Option 1: no advertising and thus must rely upon reviews and word-of-mouth. Option 2: Controversy and free press, plus reviews and word-of-mouth. Isn't this an easy choice for a film that cost maybe 15M to make and doesn't benefit from Sharon Stone's naked crotch shot? -
All right. As a person raised under the Catholic "faith" I call you out for spreading bullshit. The Catholic church is all about hatred and control. But they slap that crucifix up in the churches and everyone thinks they are O.K. Fuck that. It's bullshit. Actually, ANY organized religion is bullshit, but I dont have the time nor inclination to go into that right now. I am really starting to hate this fucking world we live in. Everyone is so fucking sensitive anymore, about everything! Everyone is a minority group and the great White Satan hates them all. yada yada, blahbidy blah. You wanna know who the most discriminated against group in the world is now, in the year 2001? White heterosexual males. It's true. Every problem in the fucking world is laid at our feet. It sucks. I sometimes wish I was a black woman, or a gay man, or a jew. Just so people will get off my fucking back!!! A guy was brutally beaten at a local club in my hometown just recently. Hear about it on your local news? Nope. Are they making a movie about it? nope. Know why? Cause he didnt suck dick. Plain and simple.
As for GLAAD I close with a quote from the hilarious comedian, Carlos Mencia (if you havent heard or seen this guy then run out now and do so): "If you can take a dick, you can take a joke." -
I'm not going to comment on J&SBSB as I have not seen it but if Jay's comments are in the same vein as previous films then they are definetley inoffensive to gays but very piss extracting to gay bashers. As for Dogma, the bandwagon jumping against that film was ridiculous. Not as funny or as well made as previous efforts, it had one thing in its favour: it's candid discussion of issues effecting the catholic faith. As a non practicing catholic I found the film to tackle ideas and anomalies that many Catholics have considered with a great deal of clarity. Between the shit monsters and the swearing was a dialouge which placed emphasis on being faithful to the spiritual side of religion. I'm no bible basher but I did feel this film for all it's flaw was not derogatory to the Catholic faith and that if it was taken seriously by church goers we may actually have the first step towards opening out religion to those (like me) who no longer have faith in the institutions we were brought up in. To criticise a film maker because he doesn't care who he pisses off in the making of a valid point is nonsensical. To be quite honest I think Smith takes care not to be offensive to minorities and it is the people who get pissed off take no consideration to the context of the accussed's material.
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Does anyone remember when that stuttering organization made a big deal of Kevin Kline's character making fun of Michael Palin's stutter in "A Fish Called Wanda"? So much so that when it was first broadcast on network TV, they re-edited Kline's "offending" dialogue! Madness! Between this and the GLAAD situation, this country is a little too BIG BROTHER for me (that is Big Brother, the figure in "1984", not that crap TV show).
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Aug 01, 2001 10:03:20 AM CDT
This is supposed to stop gays from looking temperamental how?
by thematarife
Thats the stereotype I'd be going after if i was them, but this only makes gays seem like temperamental humorless dolts.
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i dont know, but this just PISSES me off.really. It is so fucking funny.
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uhh.....you're fucked up and full of shit. 'Nuff said
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I find it comforting that we live in a society that allows us all to express our own opinions so freely. I hope you all find comfort in that as well.
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You stupids sit here and fight between each other fighting both sides......but your stupidity doesnt let you see the right answer. The answer is dont even play into "GLAAD"S TRAP.
You dont see straight people having theyre own parades and fighting for "straight" rights. Gay people want you to give them benefits, but why? they are not a seperate people nor do they have theyre own culture, what they are doing is actually being a facsist group trying to convert peoples thinking.but anyway.... I dont care if youre gay just keep it to yourself, and that is the point. These people have just gone to far out of line. -
I'd Just call out any folks who'd suggest that "liberals" or Kevin Smith using the word fag (much less any such degrading insult for that matter)
are in fact sliding around a rather important issue:
The speaker of the insult gives context to the insult:
When a group or indivual whose ideology is firmly slated in a particular manner, say from persons of a far-right leaning (the group having a history of ill intent towards that group), critize gays or jews or catholics or any minority, your well damn right peoples ears are going to perk up. People always pay attention when the Christian coalition talks about gays, or Louis Farakhan mentions jews.
Such insults used by such groups or individuals differs greatly the chiding insults from to one friend to another.
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
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If you don't have a problem with gay people, don't call them faggots. Kevin Smith might think it's just a joke, but somewhere in that darkened theatre several people will feel their very real predjudices have been vindicated. Several more people will feel just a little extra pressure to deny who they are. This will happen four or five times a day in 3000 cinemas. Those words are bullets. What's funny about that? I've never met a 'faggot' in my life.
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Any Catholic who was angry or offended by "Dogma" is an ignorant fool. "Dogma" was the one of the most intelligent, interesting commentaries on the Catholic faith ever put on film. To attack it purely over it's perceived (and non-existent) anti-Catholic rhetoric is just blind posturing. On the contrary, if you watch the film honestly, you'll find that "Dogma" is a movie that quietly questions and then reaffirms our faith. Anyone who can't see that its ultimate "God is cool" message makes it the MOST CONSERVATIVE FILM ABOUT RELIGION produced in the last three decades just wants to hate blindly.
As for JASBSB, I plan on seeing the film before passing judgement on it. But really... some people just can't take a joke. Lighten up, GLAAD. It's only a stupid dick and fart comedy. Those who can't laugh at themselves from time to time have no business fighting the battle. -
Did you come up with that insightful, thought provoking post all on your own?? Fuckin' astounding! Why are you wasting your time on an internet movie fan site? You obviously have a trememdous turn of phrase and should be off writing, hell I dunno, poetry or something.
Fucknut.
Oh and everyone lets not forget about the Insurance Policy the Catholic church used to have for when their priests would rape little boys, and the little boys told someone about it. The insurance was for out of court settlements. What the fuck is up with that??
(and, btw, the Insurance company refused to issue any kind of insurance to the church after a well publicized case, that's why the Church doesnt have the insurance anymore, not because they stopped getting it on their own. Just wanted to add this little paragraph because I KNOW someone would say "well they dont have it anymore do they??")
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It's just a movie. WHO CARES???? These people aren't real! They're fictional characters that don't even exist!
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Jesus Christ! The reason straight people aren't having "straight rights" parades is because .... get this.... their rights aren't being violated on a day to day basis! They don't need to have a parade because they already have everything. The reason the gay rights movement exists is because of issues like spousal rights, the right to adopt a child, the right to work, and .... most importantly ... the right NOT to be beaten to death because of one's sexuality. Most gay people aren't "fascists" trying to shove their lifestyles down our "straight" throats; they just want the right not to have OUR lifestyles shoved down THEIR throats. Granted, there may be some fascistic, anti-straight gay people out there; I haven't met 'em, but I suppose it's possible. And, granted GLAAD is a strident, self-important organization that presumes to tell ALL gay AND straight people what to think. But don't misrepresent an entire group of people based on the actions of ONE special interest group. I don't think all black people are anti-Semetic because of the Nation of Islam, and I certainly don't think all gay people are "fascists" because of GLAAD. And as far as gay people just "keeping it to themselves," why don't you think of that before you presume to smooch your girlfriend/wife/whatever (or boy/friend/husband/whatever....I don't know) in public the next time. Jesus, sometimes you people just make me sick......
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Fine, call me a fucknut, whatever. Just don't give me that "poor straight white male" bullshit. If you actually believe that you are pathetically naive at best, completely stupid at worst. I'm not going to argue with you anymore, so just say whatever the fuck you want. Idiot
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It's so gratifying to know that as a straight man I'm entitled to everything. If you could just let whomever is in charge know that I'm ready for my Everything now, please... This is what it boils down to: I'm not persecuting anyone and I don't know anyone who is. I don't know anyone in the state of Texas, so that's probably why. In this country, asking for special treatment is akin to calling yourself a victim, and that brings out the worst in the human animal. Most of us DON'T want to help victims -- we're innately trained as the critters we are deep down inside to PREY ON victims, to kill off the weak and thus improve the herd. Sad but true. If you go looking for sympathy, don't be surprised that most of what you get is derision and scorn. Human beings are just intelligent enough to recognize that we live in a community -- we're not smart enough to like doing so. Bless ya, folks -- save the hate for the next Hitler to rise to power, willya? Kevin Smith ain't bringing 50 years of equal rights progress to a crashing halt with his pair of Shakespearean fools. And if there's one guy out there who understands love in cinema -- love of self, of spirituality, and brotherhood -- it's the man from Red Bank. Ease up, y'all. ;)
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ALYSSA: So you friend's quite the homophobe... I'm talking about when you two were playing that game. Everytime he swore-- when his players messed up, he called them cocksuckers, he referred to his players as queers, he called you a cocksucker.
HOLDEN: He was just pissed that he was losing.
ALYSSA: So he slams the gay community
HOLDEN: C'mon. Don't get all PC on me.
ALYSSA: It's passive/aggresive gay-bashing... And that's how he expresses his anger? By calling people faggots?
HOLDEN: I think you're reading too much into this.
ALYSSA: I think you're so used to it that it rolls off your back. I've heard the two of you play your little rankout game where one insists the other is gay. "You're a faggot. No you're a faggot." It's cute and all to watch you go at it like grade schoolers, but it's also offensive -- labeling and ducking the label of being gay as if it were the scarlet fucking letter.
HOLDEN: You're blowing this way out of proportion. We live in a more tolerant age now. You refer to yourself as a dyke. Hooper calls himself a faggot all the time.
ALYSSA: Yea, but that's what's known as empowerment/disempowerment. I call myself a dyke so it's not too devastating when some throwback screams it at me as I'm leaving a bar at night. Same for Hooper-by calling himself a faggot, he steals the thunder away from the mouthy jerks of this world who'd lke to beat him to it. But the difference between us saying it and your friend saying it is miles wide. We say it to mask the pain-you say it for a lack of a better expression at any given moment. No Holdne, we do not live in a more tolerant age. -
Extremist right wing hate groups are nothing. Oprah trots them out during sweeps week, they make a lot of noise, basically they're a bunch of confused ignorant kids. They're as marginalized as the Communist Party. Most of them aren't even that passionate about their ideology. Matthew Shepard's murder wasn't particularly about homophobia, his killers were aimless, stupid kids stoned to their eyeballs on beer and meth and looking for a thrill. Predjudice is more insidious than that. It's the people in the mainstream and on this talkback, saying things like "I'm not a homophobe/racist, BUT...", or the old favorite "White heterosexual men are being discriminated against." Wake up. We do not live in an egalitarian and democratic society. There are obstacles inherent to being gay, to being a woman, to being a person of color, that us straight white guys just will never comprehend. Some of us remain more equal than others. Yes, Kevin Smith is free to be a stupid shit-for-brains no-talent asshole, and that's a sacred right, and it's your right to lap it all up. Just have the balls to admit that you're a part of the problem and not the solution though.
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DON'T LIKE IT? DON'T SEE IT. DIDN'T SEE IT? DON'T FUCKING FLAP YOUR LIPS ABOUT IT. Jiminy Christmas, if you complainers were so concerned about this movie being racist, sexist, blah blah blah, you wouldn't cause such a fuss about it. As for me, I'll judge this movie the same way I judge all movies. "Is it good, is it average, or does it suck balls?" Anyone who has problems with content, hey go see the Spy Kids rerelease and keep your PC beliefs away from my fucking movies.
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Ignorance.
Opportunism.
Hypocrisy.
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Aug 01, 2001 11:39:41 AM CDT
John Waters is an evil supporter of Bestiality, and Quentin Tara
by raindog5
After all were there not characters in their movies that did such things. When I make a movie about a homophobic moron i'm going to make sure his diologue isn't offensive. " What the fuck Bob, you Homosexual, oh I'm sorry, you Bisexual !!" What a script it will be.
Am I a liberal? -
Aug 01, 2001 11:41:10 AM CDT
If you have SEEN "Chasing Amy" and *still* believe Kevin Smith i
by waylayer
...I'm surprised you have the intelligence required to read this.
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thought it was very funny.. but agree with GLAAD about the use of the words.. Im a straight who thinks .. like the 'n' word.. its just not funny.. these guys are clearly exploiting these words for humor.. which made me laugh, admittedly more than once.. but left a bad taste.. and all the young kids seeing this will repeatedly think its ok for the this kind of crude humor.. and folks.. its really not. yeah, a movie is just a movie.. true, but its GLAAD's job to call those to task.. atleast so this discussion could take place at all.
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The door to "children will do what they see on screen" theory has just been opened. Now it's really gonna fly....
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Too many PC groups would go apeshit over Brooks' dialog to see his real goal with the film and characters. Had a friend in college who walked out of blazing saddles when we were watching it one night. She called it the most racist trash ever and couldn't believe any of us were ignorant enough to watch it. Hmmm...who was being ignorant? Social commentary often goes over the heads of the people its mocking and even those who side the not-obvious enough message.
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Aug 01, 2001 11:56:49 AM CDT
GLAAD can be misguided at times, to say the least (aka A Rant.)
by hairybearylover
First time poster, longtime reader of posts, but now I feel I had to say something. I read with great sadness the fact that GLAAD has begun to trash my one great love, Kevin Smith. I came of age with Clerks. Besides the occasional Rocky Horror viewing, it was my first foray into the run-down "independent" theater in San Diego. I admired the dialogue, I loved the gritty feel of it, and I laughed HARD. And, I saw the man who I would quickly develop a crush on...Silent Bob. He was hairy, cool, calm, collected, a cigarette in hand, and with a sprinking of wisdom at the end, he didn't have to say a word, but did to put things in perspective. He was the man. Little did I know that he was the director and writer of the flick. A week after taking friends to see it again, I realized that he was indeed, The Man. Saw Mallrats, expecting greatness, and though I was disappointed slightly, I still laughed, and seeing Shannen Doherty say "F*%^" on screen did it for me. Plus, I got to see my main man Kevin in full color. He was still hot. No one else got it, it tanked, oh well. I thought, I'll never see him again. Shame.
Enter Chasing Amy. I was in the coming out process, worried about who would know, what they would say, how was I going to deal with it all. I got a ticket to a college screening of Chasing Amy, with the promise of a "special guest." Nearly wet my pants, and played hooky from work to go. I would meet Kevin Smith in person, I would tell him how incredibly hot he was, we'd run off together, right after he acknowledged he was really into guys...Sigh.
The movie was amazing, and I realized in Kevin's longest speech to date, that he was indeed...sigh...straight, and unobtainable. How did I find this out? Well, the special guest was none other than Joey Lauren Adams, Miss "Amy" herself. She talked about how she and Kevin were dating, that he apologized for not being there, was stuck in Chicago, etc. Sweet girl. I HATED HER. She was sleeping with Kevin Smith. I wasn't.
But aside from that, having seen the crop of gay flicks jammed down my throat of gay friends on a gay weekend, having gay sex, and gay-bashing, I saw something in Chasing Amy I had never seen on screen: Straight characters really interacting with gay people, not as plot points, but as real people. I was amazed that a "straight" writer had really seen the point of view of what it's like to be gay from a different perspective, and respected our right to love, whomever that may be. My friends were pissed Affleck and Adams didn't end up together in the end of the movie, others though Banky should have slept with Holden. I didn't. Everything about that movie felt right (ok, the shot in the rain when you can see the camera crew filming off the reflection of a window wasn't great, but hey! It was made for like $200,000!). It was heartfelt, and it was fucking funny...because it was real.
I could go on for days about Dogma (brilliant on every level, and repeated viewing), but really it would just be to re-emphasize the points Kevin's laid out in his rant on view-askew. There are gay jokes all through that movie, for the discerning eye (and we phags love to read between the lines for stuff that references us), and what's more, they're funny. Jay admits twice to having homosexual thoughts, and it makes his vulgarity that much more endearing.
I don't care if he's "gay" or not, I care that he's funny.
I will be standing first in line to see J&SBSB, because a) I know that Kevin Smith is not a homophobe, and has proven himself to be quite the opposite, a straight man so comfortable with his sexuality that he can admit to being "gay-oriented", b) I'll get to watch a full movie with Silent Bob as one of the leads (more screentime = Me, Happy Camper), and c) because I know that this movie will be insanely fucking funny, with gay references that I will get, having watched all of the flicks, and loving every one.
Kevin Smith is the man, and I want this to go on record that if he was ever to "swing", I'd be there to give him a push, so to speak. Did I mention I think he's undeniably hot?
I'm much more offended by some of the crappy fag jokes Will and Grace churn out every week than the minor references Kevin and cast make in their movies, and you don't see GLAAD going off about those, because that's putting a good view of how Gay Life is to mainstream America. A gay man so uncomfortable with his sexuality he doesn't date anyone longer than 3 episodes, and another who is such a self-absorbed slut that he's constantly banging any man stupid enough to think he's charming. We have words for men like these: Queens. Don't get me wrong, I tune in every week, hoping it'll be different, but it usually isn't, because mainstream America isn't ready for a real gay relationship on primetime, so let's make jokes instead. GLAAD has done some great work organizing the gay community against blatant injustices, but even they (for lack of a better word), fuck up sometimes. This is one of those times, and I will make sure my friends (gay and straight) know that I'm supporting this movie, because I want to laugh, and because Kevin Smith is someone, that if I knew him personally, I would thank, and consider him a friend. Someone who can tell a dick joke and make a difference: he has in mine. -
He proposed the example of a mother going to the supermarket to buy vegetables. She goes down the aisle, and thinks, "Okay, my kids like carrots, I'll get some of those, my husband likes broccoli, I'll get some of that, I like beets - What's this?!? Spinach?! I don't like spinach! No one in my family likes spinach! No one I know likes spinach! Why do they have to have it next to the celery?! I am offended that there is spinach in my supermarket's vegetable aisle!"
Stupid argument, isn't it? Bottom line: If You Don't Like It, Don't Buy It. Let the market decide whether J&SBSB is a success or failure. Those who like KS will see it. Those who don't, won't. It's that simple. Boycott it all you want, I'm sure Kevin won't miss your ticket revenues, he'll be too busy counting the profits from all of the people that WILL see the movie (myself included). All you people crying out against this or that or whatever need to chill the fuck out. You can't please all the people all the time. People get way too easily offended these days ("These days", I've been saying this for over ten years). -- Thank You, Amazing Kreskin -
Shit. Just yesterday I was up on my high-horse bitching out Chris Tucker for not forwarding the cause of African-Americans and other peoples of color, and today, upon reading that GLAAD has got it's collective panties in a knot over J&SBSB, I said, aloud and verbatium, "Geez, guys. Ree-lax." That's not fair. I'm an asshole. I'm seeing it my way, as a person of color, and as a straight female I just assumed that a joke I wasn't the pawn to was okay. I'm a cock. I'll work on lightening up, fine- but what about GLAAD? What about everybody else? So, what have we learned here? Nothing? Something? Probably nothing. In the words of Marge Simpson, "One person *can* make a difference, but they probably shouldn't."
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I have noticed several people who have used the word "fuck" in an extrememly derogatory manner. Well, I happen to be a heterosexual male who enjoys to fuck and am, as such, a Fucker. I do not appreciatte the general attitude of the population, who apparently never fuck, to use the word in this manner. Yes, I am a fucker, and I am proud, and I should not have my beliefes assulted every time I turn on the TV, go to a movie, or read a stupid forum. Please refrain from this insesitive and misplaced anger. Fuckers are good people. They are just like you, except that they like to fuck. I am sorry that such a magority of the population has such a closed mind to Fuckers and fucking.
Once again, I ask for you to stop the maddness. -
Okay, so you called me on a line of bullshit and I can respect that. Of course straight white males don't have EVERYTHING....I just didn't think of the right word there. the fact is we straight guys have it pretty goddamn good in this country compared to what homosexuals, women and minorities have. We may not have EVERYTHING, but he have a hell of a lot more freedom, respect, priveledges, what-have-you than any these other groups, and to claim otherwise is downright stupid. Of course I don't like to see people "playing the victim" ... it demeans them and it demeans their cause. I don't agree with what GLAAD is doing here, and I don't agree with what they did with Eminem and Dr. Laura either. That's not the point. The point is that gay pride parades, rainbow bumper stickers, etc. aren't about "playing the victim." These things are about EMPOWERMENT. They are about EDUCATION. Just because someone is trying to fight for his or her rights and change society for the better doesn't mean he/she is "playing the victim." Was Martin Luther King "playing the victim"? Was Gloria Steinem "playing the victim"? Dr. Floyd explained it much better than I did in my original post; as straight white males we can't fathom what gay people deal with on a day to day basis. Certainly people do play the victim sometimes, and I agree that GLAAD tends to do that. My point is that we can't judge an entire group of people based on what one faction of that group does or says.
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America is great indeed.
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Just because it may be human nature to prey on victims doesn't mean we SHOULD prey on victims. It's called evolution, man...you're not an animal. You have control of your instincts.....
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It's been quite awhile since i've talk backed but it's Kevin Smith so I must. And it's a hot topic. Hopefully it hasn't died down yet. Anyways, the problem with gays, antigays, pro-catholics, and atheists is this. They're all labels. So what if you like having sex with men or women? I don't give a fuck. So what if you renounce God or worship him 24/7. I don't give a fuck either. You don't have to get onto a mountain and scream it. The key to human life is not fucking organizations. It's being yourself. Fuck religion and fuck atheists. Fuck GLAAD and fuck homo-hating rednecks. Fuck the KKK and fuck the Black Dragons. Fuck them all. All they are is to put a bunch of people together to hate different people. I know one thing for sure. I am Jay. No one can be like me. I will never belong in an organization. I like having sex with women and I think that anybody that's cool, including homesexuals, are fun to be around with. I love God and believe in Him, but I think the bible's bullshit. Being yourself is fun.
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Okay. I have just exhaustively poured over each and every last post and reached the following conclusions:_____________________ First, what I stated about boycotts is true. Aside from the DOGMA controversy and "Sensation", might I also site the Islamic backlash on "The Siege". Whereas I noted the figures on these films of controversy--"Priest", "The Last Tempatation of Christ", "Dogma"--and came to the rationale the pattern described in my previous post was consistent...but other factors allowed some of these films to better than others. Thus, "Dogma" could do better than "Priest" due to the maketing, acting, reviews etc.______________ But above all, there were always politics involved and some groups may have been smaller, but were more in vogue, say. Thus when those stuffed shirts and starch collars of the Catholic church have a gripe, it's negatively covered, but when GLAAD has a gripe it's righteous anger.___________________________ Someone made the point about college campuses and the core Smith audience...which was a valid point I overlooked. In the intollerant bubble that is the modern university, such a boycott could hold weight. However, outside that bubble...well, I refer you to the pattern.__________________Finally, talkbacks remain the most convoluted, over-the-top, emotionally charged, intellectually lazy rants, this side of Springer...only not as sane! The Dr.Laura comparisons on both sides were outlandish. Dr.Laura lost her show for variety of reasons. Whatever feasible or moral arguments she might have had were lost in shirl diatribe. However, to say she was solely the victim of bad business is absurd. She made plenty of adversaries to do her enough harm, which in the end compounded her troubles._________________________ As for the anti-Catholic posters of which there were many, shirl as well, I might add, let me remind you that the church as an institution has always been dedicated to its singular principles throughout time. It has survived Roman persecution, before converting an empire, multiple upon multiple gnostic sects, protestant revolutions, the Restoration, plague, the inquisition, two world wars, and the rise and fall of totalitarian regimes through out the 20th century. Even though the reigns were taken by some fairly corrupt leaders who used it more as political vehicle, its principles survived so that it could reform itself over time, as it always has (the last being during Vatican II). The church stands as a model of Christian charity and should be revered as such. The church has seldom been a power player in recent times, especially in this country. So in maybe expressing some indignation they should be allowed the same rights granted everyone else. As an ex-Catholic and a devout atheist for the majority of my years, the very least I can offer is respect.__________________________Who will never earn my respect however, are knee-jerk PC disciple reactionaries, all too quick to paint entire movements with broad brushes. I am Rabid Republican. This has been a public service announcement.
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Guess what? People get offended when you use a epiphet! Duhh!
When gay people hear the word "fag", I doubt they consider the intent, or the underlying subtext behind the word - they probably just get angry.
KSmith is smart enough to predict this reaction. Is he evil or bad, no - but he had to suspect this reaction was coming.
To use such a hurtful word (at least to some) as a generic insult actually makes it worse. Imagine the dialogue from the film with the word "kike", "beaner" or "n*&*&" instead. Even worse, how about "kevin".
"When the characters use the word "kevin", they are not referring to actual kevins, but instead, a blanket insult. "Kevin" is just used to represent people and behaviors that deserve ridicule."
Why would Kevin's be upset by that?
Smith has every right to use these words in his film. No one should (or will) stop him. Everyone knows that language like this gets attention - is that surprising?
c to the g -
GLAAD ought to be IBTYGM. 10 grand will keep them off Kevin and 200 grand from MIRAMAX will quiet them all together. Wait till Over Eaters Anonymous calls about all the fat jokes and NDDIC call because of all the fart jokes. It could go on and on.
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Then, perhaps they better change the name of their organization to something else, since the word 'Gay' is part of their name AND they consider it offensive! You know, perhaps the Uniformly Non Homosexual Alliance Against Defamation (UNHAAD) should attack GLAAD for use of the word 'Gay' since it is used in all that organization's publicity.
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Because he must have sucked somebody's dick to get that piece of shit "Clerks" distributed in the first place. OKAY FINE, he's grown past that and I even liked "Dogma" (probably the only one of his flicks I can remotely stand). "Jay & Silent Bob", good fucking riddance. I always thought these two character's were the most assinine juvenile thing about his films. There were people in my Sight & Sound class that made more mature films the Kevin Smith has. Now that he's dumping all this View Askew crap maybe he'll grow the fuck up. All his rants against Reese Witherspoon and Paul Thomas Anderson have just made him look all the more like a petty, jealous little bitch. I'll admit there is something there. There is some talent but he's got to start telling stories that don't just deal with Red Bank NJ and then hopefully we'll see where it goes from there. That pathetic fuck Jay is probably gonna be left behind and end up on Heroin or something but he's had a long enough ride. I mean, who the fuck even dresses like that anymore. Yeah, I'm a bitter, jealous fuck myself I guess. It just drives me nuts that there are so many talented directors out there(myself included)who are cutting carrots in Chinese restaurants while Kevin Smith get's to make movies that only him and his three friends from Eastbubblefuck think are funny. Hope he finally get's this shit out of his system.
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... don't buy it, read it, watch it or listen to it. That's why the damn TV has an on off switch on! Censorship is NEVER the answer. It inevitably leads to the slippery slope just up the hill from Totalitarianism.
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Now pass me the vaporizer
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... that should have been: "...TV has an on off switch on IT". How embarrassing... You know, this whole TB reminds me of the scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where everyone is waxing eloquent about the wonders of Camelot as they "ride" toward this "big" castle on the hill where Terry Gilliam, (one of the guys banging 2 halves of a coconut together in lieu of the Knights riding actual horses), turns toward the camera and says:
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Let's get one thing straight. Jay, the character is a homophobe. There is no doubt about it. Kevin Smith the writer/director/whatever is far from it. Just because someone writes a character who is homophobic doesn't mean that they are.
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Has the whole world gone mad? Has the PC bug overcome our society? If we are gonna allow groups to cry foul each and every time something little thing happens, even if it is in lew of the "Whole Message" then what the fuck are we still creating for? Are feminist groups gonna go up in arms every time the word "bitch" is used in a film? Even if the film is about the empowerment of women? Are african-americans gonna go crazy every time the word "nigger" is used in a movie, or a song? And even if the movie or song is anti-racist? Are white guys gonna go crazy every time the term "wasp" or "cracker" is used in a film? Everybody needs to wake up and see that Kevin Smith is not a homophobe, and is the farthest from anti-gay as people come. In fact, we are only a few years removed from the time when the gay and lesbian community was showering praise on Smith for his insightful, realistic, and sympathetic protrayal of the g & l community in "Chasing Amy." Just goes to show how much clubs like this will sacrifice in the name of publicity. The fact is that when Smith uses these terms in his films, it is always in one of two ways. 1) To show just how ignorant and insecure people who talk like that are("banky" in Chasing Amy). And 2) When good friends use the term toward each other, it is always a blatant display of the homosexual tension that is inherent in all male relationships. Unlike most films that use these terms with a grain of salt, Smith chooses to use them to enlighten viewers as to complicated issues inherent with the use of such terms. People just need to get the fuck off their high horses, and read between the lines.
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...well said, man, well said...
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Hehehe, love stuff like this...I'm so glad I'm hetero and athiest, guess I can't be offended...hey wait a minute..that movie "The Ten Commandments" was anti-atheist...I'm going to go protest it...I was watching "Queer As Folk" and saw some hetero bashing..damnit, I'm going to boycott Showtime networks!!! Everyone just needs to chill the fuck out nowadays..everyone is offended by something. Quit being a pussy, griow some balls and why not use that energy to ddonate to charity or helping a poor neighbor paint their fucking house. No, you want to stand around and be offended all day. Fuck you! Maybe you need to be offended. This is not as a KS fan (which I am) this is as someone who's pissed about everyone being a whiny ass crybaby these days. Hey, I'm a goth lover and I'm waiting for positive goth role models in movies/tv...oops, guess I'm fucked! I'm also a longhair...why do criminals and serial killers on tv have long hair...I'm offended and damnit, I'm going to boycott! Oh no wait a minute...I'm going to just go pop Dogma in the DVD player and have some fun...oops, already posted in another talkback that I'm going to watch a Fred Olen Ray movie...THEN Dogma...as for the person comparing KS to the beating death in Wyoming...you are so fucking sick...how fucking dare you? Racism, gaybashing, etc. have been around a long fucking time, since before movies and tv you stupid fuck. Just remember that right which allows you to boycoot, picket and protest is the SAME law that protects Kevin Smith's right to fredom of speech...but you wouldn't want us to remember that right? You're an embarassment to the people you think you represent...and I say that a s someone who's gay friend is sitting next to them nodding thier head in agreement.
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Aug 01, 2001 2:26:21 PM CDT
Did anyone actually go and read what Kevin had to say?
by johnny demonic
You people that think Kevin Smith is a homophobe are fucking brain dead. GLADD are extortionists, plain and simple. They shook Kevins Smith down for some money. I can't even respond I'm so baffled. What is wrong with you people? You don't like his movies so you take the first chance you get to bash the man. Fuck you all. His movies and comics are anything but homophobic. If anything, they are pro gay. And to compare Dr.Laura to Smith is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Do you fools understand the term "context?" Dr.Laura and Kevin Smith are on a different page. I know it is a childish way to end an argument, but in this case, there is no other way. You people are fucking wrong. You are stupid and wrong. Ignorance is not an excuse here, you are, as I said earlier, just stupid. ANd I know this is not a well thought out argument, but I don't feel it's needed. Anyone with a brain would understand that Smith is not a homophobe, GLADD is full of shit in this case, and Dr.Laura is NOT the same as Kevin Smith. Read what the man had to say. Watch his movies. If you still think he's a homophobe then you have brain damage. I think most of you people that are bashing him are just Smith haters from the start grasping at straws. You are stupid, brain dead fools. That is a fucking fact, so don't try and argue it because anthing you say will be disregarded by anyone with a functioning brain.
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Aug 01, 2001 2:29:05 PM CDT
hey Zerocorpse your almost right,But i'm not white i'm Jamaican(
by justice41
Wow what a talkback. Sheesh,You get on a group for being consistant and a Director for being consistant and look what you get. People calling you names. By the way i'm not the least religous,hate to tell people out there that think i'm on that side of this issue,Nope not me,as far as i'm concerned religion is a crutch for weakminded people. Question... does anyone here have Jobs.? Or are ya all onna dole?I met Smith got some auto's from him nice guy , but hell this is what happens when you support discrimination. Just like you shouldn't support crappy movies,you shouldn't support Groups that want to take your Rights from you.Nuff said ...Next topic.
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bet i am in for a slapping now...
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Jay Phat Buds isn't really a homophobe he is just afraid he is attracted to Silent Bob or other guys for that matter.
Right now in NYC our beloved Mayor, who is getting a divorce from his wife, has moved in with an openly gay couple. -
Mind you, this is only USA, unless otherwise stated.
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Clerks, budget with post-production work: 230k.****
Box office, not including video/TV/Pay perview/DVD = 3.1M
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http://us.imdb.com/Business?0109445
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Mallrats, budget: 6M****
Box office, not including video/TV/Pay perview/DVD = 2.1M
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http://us.imdb.com/Business?0113749
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Chasing Amy, budge = $250,000****
Box office, not including video/TV/Pay perview/DVD = 12M
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http://us.imdb.com/Business?0118842
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Dogma, Budget=10M****
Box office, not including video/TV/Pay perview/DVD = 30M
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http://us.imdb.com/Business?0120655
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While not major successes, only one of his films appears to have not made money at the box office. Considering the profitability of DVD/VHS, and according to his comments, Mallrats made its money back later.
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It's funny, but priests never attack a film. Religious rights groups do! God, the Catholic League (those arrogant assholes) attacked Kevin Smith's "Dogma" to no end. Smith said in a Premiere interview that he hates the white man (not whites, but the WHITE MAN), but never did he say he was going against religion. Can't the Catholic League figure both "Dogma" and "Jay & Silent Bob Out" out? They're damn fiction movies, just movies! This isn't China or the Middle East for god's sake! It's America, where you get more free speech than any place in the world. Smith is an acknowledged Catholic and his films are always the questioning of reality and religion. The problem I have with religion and I was originally gonna be Jewish had my father been religious, is it's ability to take people from reality. The best religion is common sense and street smart beliefs. Those kinds make you survive in the world and become the next Jesse Ventura, who by the way is the only qualified politician to survive more than a second in both South Central L.A. and Brooklyn. I think these religious rights groups should get some serious sex, sun, lovers, REAL friends, and far and large, JUST GET A FRIGGIN LIFE! It's just a movie! Shit, I hope this new Askew movie doesn't flop or suffers because of these heartless religious group people. I don't think they've seen Dogma or Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back. BTW, my friend John saw Dogma, he's a very religious Catholic, and he's not offended. Shit, it's free speech! The religious groups would seriously loose to Supreme Court Justice Scalia in a fighting match. That man is the shit.
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What do you call a faggot kike that was both homophobic and antisemitic?
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This man, has given you more good publicity than any other person in Hollywood. "Chasing Amy" did more to help the image of Gays in America, than any other movie out there. He treated the subject of Homosexuality with respect and honesty. A couple of jokes at your expense, and you label him as Gay-bashing. Who the hell do you think you are? It's not a personal attack. it's a couple of one-liners. If we can't laugh at ourselves, then there really is no reason to go on. He's not inciting people to riot, or yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theatre. he made a few jokes you don't care for. And what was his punishment? A $10,000 "donation". You people make me sick, you're worse than PETA. Greedy zealots(sic), I hope the "real" Gay community tells you to blow, because you obviously don't represent anything other than your own petty, self-interests. I'll never give you any credibilty as long as you contradict your own themes of tolerance. Good Day to You. P.S. Nothing can kill the Grimace!
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Aug 01, 2001 4:22:35 PM CDT
Dear Lord, don't ever speak ill of gays, they are perfection def
by tech-donut
Thank God we live in America and you can actually joke about diversity. Otherwise you might think that there have never been gay thieves, or gay murderers, or gay child molesters, etc. No, just that gay people are perfect and if someone uses the word 'fag' as a dis or in a joking manner then THEY are the one with the problem.
"Oh, you hateful scoundrel! Gays are devine beings above criticism!! How dare you!"
It's a damn joke. Not everyone in the world agrees with homosexuality, and obviously, not everyone in the world agrees with heterosexuality. If someone calls me a pimp or a dog because I have sex with women I don't take offense. GLAAD can stick it up their nicely lubed ass. Oops! I made a gay joke. -
Let's see how kind and liberal you are, how open minded you can be. Make an entire film using the words "nigger", "kike", "ziphead", "chink" and "wetback" as affectionately as you spout off "fag".
"Fag" is such an easy thing to get away with and I find it funny that hack directors like Smith make excuses that "it's only in jest". It's EXACTLY this approach that makes it ok for an entire generation of fools to use that word. -
Why is it that we are supposed to give a shit about homosexuals- who make up a very, very minute portion of the population? The fact is that GLAAD is full of a bunch of whiny, gutless fags and bitter man-hating lesbians who want everyone else to cater to them. On a final note, let it be known that Dr. Laura was right- it's too bad she didn't stand up for what she knew was right.
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Wasn't JFK our first (and only)Catholic President? Obviously, he was a bastion of conservative thought. Can I be pro-choice, yet anti-abortion and anti-death penalty at the same time? Yes. Does believing in the inalienable right to free speech have anything to do with your place on the political spectrum? No. Is a slur a slur? Yes. What does this mean? Hell if I know. Guess it means everyone is different, has a right to express their opinion, and should have the common decency to respect every human to the same degree. Will I see this movie? Yes I will, because I'm not going to let any pinko-Commie-leftwing-Nazi-censorloving-rightwing-wackjob organization tell me I can't, or worse, shouldn't. If you couldn't tell, I've got way too much politics on the brain. That's what happens when you work for the Man like I do.
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Aug 01, 2001 6:53:35 PM CDT
Great, let's get Jesse Jackson involved for Chris Rock's involve
by dexter cornell
I'm so sick of these organizations who have nothing better to do than freak about every three letter word they can find. It's just like Jesse Jackson and Rev Sharpton who find racial issues in every freakin' thing. These are just movies PEOPLE!! I hate to tell all of you media whores this, but people in the REAL world talk like this to their friends all the time. As long as it's not in a hateful way, then shut the ferk up! Dex out
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I don't usually stoop to this level but you are all a bunch of fucking idiots!!!! What the hell is all this about liberals? I was brought up as a Republican Christian so I know what kind of bullshit you anti-Kevin Smith Catholic types are spewing. You like to lump everyone that's not "you" together and call it liberal (which to you is synonymous with evil). I have grown up, I see the way the political parties manipulate the churches and the minorities pitting them against each other for their own benefit(and you all buy into it like pavlov's dog). When I was young, the film Little Darlins was attacked by the church (my church anyway) for supposedly being about glorifying teenage girls having sex. Of course as a teenager myself, I had to check it out and guess what, it wasn't about that. It was a morality play diguised as a comedy about why girls should wait. I was quite disappointed, but I learned a lesson that day "Sometimes the Church doesn't know what it's talking about" which I later learned was actually "often the church doesn't know what it's talking about" as I lived through the "all music but Christian music is evil" stage we went through. After that I learned "hey, they aren't the only ones who make opinions without knowing anything" The Republicans do it, the Democrats do it, Gays do it, Straights do it, Blacks do it, Whites do it, countries do it, and so on and so on.
The fact is, Kevin is not anti-Catholic and he's not anti-gay.
The Religious groups in this country LOVE to have a boogey man. No need to see the movie, no need to read the script, it's fine with me if someone tells me what to think right?
You need to stop thinking that liberal = democrat = pedophile = anti God = abortion = minority = low morals = anarchy in the streets, or whatever else you think belongs together. These things are not all the same. Many minorities are very religious, Many Republicans are atheist, Many Catholics are pro-choice and some are even gay!!
My point is you can't lump everyone together any more than I could lump the Catholic church
and gays together.
If I made some typos, piss off, I'm very tired. -
ship them out to some tropical paradise to soothe their oppressed souls and let them nuke the shit out our evil, malicious, bigoted asses. I mean, what the fuck?! People using the Constitutionally-rendered right to free speech to oppress "art", ranging from tunes to flicks, because of what it says are just as big an asshole as the guy doing it. If it offends you that much, don't watch it, pure and simple. These fucks are way too sensitive to be starting a group. No, allow me to rephrase. People in general are way too sensitive today to be starting a group for the betterment of society. It just turns into a giant circle jerk, much like this talk-back.
Have a Coke and a smile, fer Christ sake. -
Jeez, I took a whole different meaning from the movie. It seemed to basically reassure the young male community that YES, your fantasies are justifiable: lesbians CAN be "reformed"! So get on out there and have at it, ya crazy sexed-up galoots! Here's a question. How in God's name did the term "faggot" go from being used to describe a bundle of sticks to being used to bash gays? I fail to see a connection. Did people just get so mad at the gay community that they flipped through the dictionary to find some random word to bash them with? "I'll beat your ass, you fucking sibilant!" "Don't you fucking touch me, you goddamn hopscotch!" "God hates onomotopeias!" Makes ya think..... this has been a Moment with User ID Indeed! I wanna grapple Fiona Apple! That chick from No Doubt-I'd make her SHOUT! Mariah Carey-I'd see if she's hairy! Melissa Etheridge!!....oh. She's cool.
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That's the only thing I can think to say after reading this. OOPS! Now the CL is protesting at my door. I agreed with GLAAD when they were against Eminem. For pete's sake, the man clearly said in many songs that he wanted to KILL all gay people. Sorry, but I don't recall Jay EVER talking about killing all of the heterosexually challenged. This isn't even about GLAAD getting a sense of humor. This isn't about "Kevin is very pro-gays." Sorry, but I don't think you'll be seeing kevin in any of those parades anytime soon. But you won't see him protesting Will and Grace either. He isn't an activist, but he doesn't exactly hate them. Now, Kevin's movies have never really tried to be too preachy like an afterschool special or something, but they have always been one thing: true. Well, maybe not the gags (Silent Bob's coat) but the dialogue is always very real. The greatest thing about Clerks is that it's all dialogue and all great true dialogue (c'mon guys, I know you all tried to reach... "it"). Kevin never thought about taking the fairly un-neccesary transexual porn scene with Randall because it's probably something his fucked up character would watch (and it's hilarious). I'm pretty sure when John Singleton was directing Boyz N the Hood he didn't tell Ice Cube to stop saying the "N-word." Because that's how young men in the ghetto talk to each other. Now, it's a sad truth, but kids from the suburbs call each other, jokingly, though that doesn't excuse anything, fags. I have done this a few times myself, but only because the people were my friends and I knew would not take it personally. Well, Jay & Silent Bob are so close, they're practically attached at the hip. It fits Jay's character to call Silent Bob a fag and suggest the blow-job jokes. Just like it fits for Randall to watch the Tranny porn. So you right wingers get off your high horse pointing the finger because your still pissed about Dogma because Kevin screwed up cause he hasn't. And you leftwingers chill out about how Kevin is this completely perfect creature from God. Because he isn't. But he does make movies that are off-the-wall and true at the same time and it's stupid to censor him because of it. Middle class suburban kids always pull gay jokes and call each other fags. I know because I am one.
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I just may have to print this one out! A non-issue gone haywire thanks to all of you knee-jerk, bitter talkbackers! Thank you all...
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Have you ever noticed that the groups that are against hate speech usually turn out to be against any speech at all they don't like? We've got from the Ku Klux Klan to groups representing minorities complaining every time something isn't completely sanitized and sterilized. Obligatory disclaimer for the inattentive or plain ol' dumb: Objecting to, say, Nazi hate speech is one thing, objecting to off-color humor is something else entirely. Actually, come to think of it, we all know about Jay from Dogma. Maybe a DVD rental for Chastity Bono would straighten this whole thing out.
One more thing; why are they complaining about this when "Will and Grace" has a flaming queen and a nutless pet as the two key gay characters? Talk about screwed up priorities! -
Aug 01, 2001 9:39:32 PM CDT
If you're going to gossip about Miramax, Disney and the Weinstei
by methos
Please spell their names correctly. People deserve that much.
Best Wishes -
Please spell their names correctly.
Best Wishes -
Hey, I'm a gay dude (who never posts, but figure I'd chime in on this one)& shit like this tends to piss me the fuck off. Who cares? Even if the terms "gay" and "fag" are used throughout the movie in a negative way, people seem to forget they're CHARACTERS in a movie saying them. Jay (a fictional character, for all you paying attention) being homophobic doesn't make Kevin Smith (a real person) homophobic. GLAAD needs to stop crying like a bunch of fags (sorry, couldn't resist) and deal with it.
FUCK CENSORSHIP -
One, for that empty post(I often find it's very difficult to type when your blood alcohol level is greater than 0.20). Second, whether you like Kevin Smith or not, you must defend his write to free speech. Also, to all you Catholics who complained about "Dogma", as an ex-Catholic myself, I found the film inspirational. It almost made want to go back to church. But then, I snapped back to my senses and realized, that if ever there was a God, and providing "it"
is/was sentient, "It"
has long since left us to our own devices. To paraphrase C.O.C. " There's 13 Angels standing on a stage, I think they're going to throw me away. One lifetime gone and now my soul is dead, the Angels just shake their heads". -
One, for that empty post(I often find it's very difficult to type when your blood alcohol level is greater than 0.20). Second, whether you like Kevin Smith or not, you must defend his right to free speech. Also, to all you Catholics who complained about "Dogma", as an ex-Catholic myself, I found the film inspirational. It almost made me want to go back to church. But then, I snapped back to my senses and realized, that if ever there was a God, and providing "it"
is/was sentient, "It"
has long since left us to our own devices. To paraphrase C.O.C. " There's 13 Angels standing on a stage, I think they're going to throw me away. One lifetime gone and now my soul is dead, the Angels just shake their heads". I think I corrected all my spelling errors, but then again, I voted for Clinton. Twice. Goodnight everybody, and call your Mom, she misses you!!!! -
I know I will be in the minoroty on this one but I remember Kevin on his Denis Miler live appearance. He was telling Kevin how he thought that peoples sexual choices should be thier own. Then he followed it up with If a guy wants to "chug cock" than thats up to him. While his theory is sound, he could have easaly said "If a guy is gay that shouldn't be a problem" The fact that he had to emphisize "Chug Cock" as if to mock or degrade the act that he was supporting. If I was gay I think I would have been offended. I think it may be possible that GLADD has a point.
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I know when I go to the movies, I'm looking for characters whom I can model my life after. Like Garth Alger, Bill S. Preston Esquire, Beavis or Jay. The really special thing about Jay is that he pops up in movies where there is really no place for him like CHASING AMY and especially DOGMA. I guess I never admired Jay more than when he and his life-partner did those commercials for MTV's animation weekend and Jay expressed my own longing for the days of MTV's "weird ass cartoons". That statement gave Jay an earlier set of troubles with T.A.A.D. (Toon Alliance Against Discrimination). In closing, I would like to say that as a heterosexual, when I was single I used to envy bisexuals because I figured that they could get some even when all the women were telling them "Get lost, greasemonkey." They say that everyone has homosexual tendancies, but I don't, no matter how hard I try. Those of you who do, God bless you, I envy you. Did you go to a special seminar or something?
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I dont think that its the fact that the word "gay" and "fag" are being used in the movie.. I think its the fact that millions of teenagers are going to see this movie and once again start calling eachother (and others) gay and fag and all the other horrible names teens can call each other... This is i believe to avoid any un-necessary hate crimes... And Do i believe in censorship? no. Do i believe in right and wrong? yes. Do i think the words gay and fag are bad? no. Do I think that the way they are used in todays society are wrong? yes. Do I believe that this could have a serious impact on society? yes.
-Case -
Ok...We now are seeing the spin Kevin Smith fans are using....
1.IT's BEING DONE IN JEST SO IT'S OK. Well got news for you KS fans you being called on the carpet. You using a term thats derogatory and hateful. During the Dogma debate KS fans went out and ripped the catholic church for spreding degoratory sterotypes and accusing the pope of making the terms "Fag" and Dyike" into acceptable forms of hate speech...Now GLADD is slamming your idol for using those terms and you KS fans are shocked! JUST SCHOCKED! That there comming after your guy...As poster said before me I'm sure the killers of mathew shepard used those same terms in jest as they were killing him.And hey Jay is often CHEERED on by you fans when he says that stuff. Will you boo and hiss at him we walks on screen I think not.__________________________________2. Dr. LAURA IS A REAL PERSONALITY WHO IDEAS LEAD PEOPLE TO DO HATEFUL ACTS THE CHARACTERS IN JASBSB ARE FAKE...Oh please...guess what kids a hate filled idea can come from anywhere. So if someone listyening to Dr. Luara's radio show hears what shes says and will go out and kill a homosexual so we have to stop her. We must throw her off the air. But in KS film its fake people know its fake and there just gonna laugh and think its funny...Well that doesnt hold any water...Many consider Dr. Luara to be entertainment yep just entertainment just like your pal KS. GLADD is simply applying the same standard....___________________________3. GLADD NEEDS TO CHILL OUT AND LIGHTEN UP...Well guess what kids when they were lined up to defend KS you just loved GLADD now there comming KNOCKING on YOUR door, telling YOUR idol to change his film, and if he doesnt HE and YOU will be branded homophobes....See libs like Green4ever and others love ripping on the catholic church for all its supposed injustices through the ages...But when a VERY powerful group is gonna call you a homophobe cause of something YOU belive in your Nirvana Cd gets bent. Your being called intolerant gay bashers by the standards YOU have set during the Dogma debate...Dont like being held for mathew shepards or brandon teenas death if you go and see JASBSB well thats exactly what you Kevin smith fans accused us catholics during dogma if we choose not to go. Conservatives and GLADD are judging you Kevin Smith spinmisters by the standards of tolerance YOU set. Accusing those on the right for spreading hateful messages in the media may be great but when we slam you for doing the same thing and call you a homophobe dont go whinin your geting a taste of your own medicice....I know that when I aviod JASBSB not only will I be taking a stand against Catholic bashing which Kevin smith fans enjoy sooooooo much but I know I'll be taking a stand against Homophobia....Got to hand it to smith he's made conservatives preppies look more tolerant than those closed minded grngies....Thanks Kev... -
Aug 01, 2001 11:29:27 PM CDT
Hey, don't even equate this with Dr. Laura. She was railing aga
by bruno diaz
Tarantino did plenty of shit like this, even worse if you ask me. Who cares? People talk that way. It's a movie. Calling Kevin Smith a gay basher is like calling Spike Lee a klan member. The guy made one of the only crossover movies I can remember in recent years to feature appealing gay characters in leading roles. GLAAD can eat my bizalls! Snootchie Bootchies!
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Aug 01, 2001 11:32:08 PM CDT
Hey, don't even equate this with Dr. Laura. She was railing aga
by bruno diaz
Tarantino did plenty of shit like this, even worse if you ask me. Who cares? People talk that way. It's a movie. Calling Kevin Smith a gay basher is like calling Spike Lee a klan member. The guy made one of the only crossover movies I can remember in recent years to feature appealing gay characters in leading roles. GLAAD can eat my bizalls! Snootchie Bootchies!
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Aug 01, 2001 11:38:52 PM CDT
big fucking publicity stunt. look how much free advertising DOGM
by cthulu
haha made you look
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As long as your implying the same standard....Something kevin Smith Spinmisers refse to do since it means their guy and by extension them selves can be calssified as hate filled homophobes....For those of you wondering Dr. Laura NEVER EVER called homosexuals "fags" "queers"....what she did say was they are "biological errors" and "I get many lets from gay men telling me their peers are preadory to young boys..." now GLADD, MTV , many of those on the left and numerous Kevin smith fans found this offensive. We were told how tolerant of toher lifestyles they were and those evil catholics were gonna get thier just desserts by Dogma being released.Signs were hold up equating Dr. Laura's statements as creating a climate of hate that caused the mathew shepard and bradon teena murders...Now Kevin smith fans were NOWHERE to be found in fact several of them used Dr. Laura upcomming TV sohw as a political weapon to beat those who thought Dogama was offenaive as gay haters....FAST FORWARD to today GLADD a VERY powerful group who the hollywood left is always trying to get in to the good graces of now slams KEVIN SMITH for having anti gay slurs, statemtns and sterotypes brought out. Kevin Smith fans out raged that THEIR entertainment and THIER idol is being called homophobic and by extension themselves. The poeple who said "oh were so tolerant unlike those opressor catholic's" are now being shown for the bigots there are...Could you imagine ANY catholic organization saying the things Kevin Smith fans are saying on this site and geeting away with it????? OH YEAH I FORGOT ITS ALL A JOKE BY MADE UP CHARCTERS SO ITS OK....
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Aug 02, 2001 12:16:03 AM CDT
You know blacks are just NIGGERS, Jews are just KIKES, Liberals
by bullworth
But i'm a fictional character who ment it in jest, thats been around since 1994,that people hate but cheer me on when i say this stuff, and all the gays knew I was just ment at as joke, being true to my character so I wouldnt alienate my fans that love this stuff...
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So i'm gonna plunk $7.50 to do so just to save Kevin Smith so i can get more of his view of the world...Yeah Right...
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You compare Kevin Smith to Dr. Laura? Let's take a quiz, shall we? Which one of the two compared Homosexuals to genetic misfits(paraphrasing)? Who said they were mistakes? If your answer was Kevin Smith, you're wrong. I'm not idolizing Kevin Smith, he's just a guy that makes some funny movies. But where do you get off comparing Smith's dialogue with Dr. Laura's outright intolerance of an entire 10th of America's population? You cry foul because Smith criticized Catholicism? Well, I grew up Catholic, and it was the most detrimental thing that ever happened to me. Confession, repentance, at age seven? What were my foibles and sins? Where was my need for redemption? Nowhere, that's where! My own Mother told me to tell a lie to the Priest in the confessional, so as to appear "Guilty" of some sin. You want to know what he did? He hit me! For no other reason than I told them what they wanted to hear. Sadistic, melodramatic "boy-lovers" the whole lot of them! I feel something resembling pity for you. Pity, I say, because you didn't feel the need to release yourself from a life of subservience to a God that could care less whether you live or die. You truly are the "blind following the blind".
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Here it is: GLAAD have just proved themselves to be ignorant and ill-informed, just like -- HOMOPHOBICS!
YEAH! Smart Move!
morons -
Ok Kevin Smith fans, we are going to try something a little new at my website EclipseMagazine.com (http://www.eclipsemagazine.com). We have the internet's favorite director lined up for the EM Hotseat this coming Monday. For the first time ever at EM, we are going to give you, the readers a chance to ask questions. So let us know what you think of Kevin Smith and his films, "Dogma", "Clerks", "Mallrats", "Chasing Amy" and now "Jay and Silent Bob Strikes back".
Good, bad, indifferent, we want to hear from YOU. If you always wanted to ask the Director a question, here's your chance. Just post your question at EM, and we'll ask him the ones that we think are the best ones.
And can someone please explain the Ben Affleck and Phantom joke to me?
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It seems that in the world of popular opinion, you've been exposed as the resident lunatic. Please submit your stem cells for harvestation. Because that's the only good you can offer his world. Quickly, man, I need a new hip.
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Lesbians can be reformed! Actually, the character in Chasing Amy was pretty obviously bisexual, having had many hetero sexual experiences before swearing off men. The problem comes in when people assume that a lesbian character, underrepresented in most media except porn, must represent all lesbian characters. Alyssa Jones obviously represented a minority within the lesbian community, but one that does exist (see Heche, Anne).
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I know what you mean about wishing for bisexuality. I wish for it in my girlfriend all the time. But I guess she's like you, and has not one iota of bisexuality. I've tried everything, renting girl-on-girl porno, pointing out beautiful women on the street, taking her for lapdances, even forcing us to eat nothing but Taco Bell for a week, and nothing works. She said the thought of going down on a woman makes her sick. I told her that doesn't stop me and now I'm sleeping on the couch. Not to mention the fact that we're nowhere nearer to the permanent threesome that I'm trying desperately to set up. Anybody who can help us out, I would be most greatful.
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I think they (GLAAD) are shooting themselves in the foot.
This is a guy (Kevin Smith) who made an entire movie (Chasing Amy) whose point was that sexual choice really isn't a choice, and people should accept themselves and others for what they are, and not what they want them to be.
The problem is, like the Catholics who bashed Dogma, they don't get the subtext.
In Dogma, for example, you have that scene where Chris Rock proves his heavenly perspective by telling Jay that he masturbates more than anybody on Earth.
The Punchline to that, of course, is that Rufus tells everybody he thinks about men when he does it.
He's portrayed in this film, and obviously the next as a guy in the deepest depths of the closet. These characters are not role models. That's the whole joke. These characters are the neighborhood POT DEALERS, losers extraordinaire! In the last movie, they were shown as the somewhat cool at times, but also as somewhat clueless (remember, they do show up at an abortion clinic hoping to pick up chicks) Kevin Smith has enough sense to allow the audience to come to the conclusion that these fellows aren't (as Stephen in Braveheart put it) right in the head.
So many of these groups protest the most meaningful works, but forget to strike out at the movies that truly exploit and harm. I mean, Stigmata and End of Days never Crossed the Catholic Leagues radar, but they latch on to Dogma? I'll tell you why Dogma was singled out: It's philosophy was liberal. Stigmata and End of Days where both junior grade movies with conservative and/or libertarian stances that give enough of a token bone to what the religious zealots want: evil that can be fought and killed(like in a culture war), religious aid that is their for the asking, which doesn't have to be struggled towards (read: it's easy, so why aren't you doing it?), and movies that affirm that any unfair events in one's life is not God's responsibility.
I think GLAAD fails to understand that there must be gay villains to counterbalance gay heroes, and people insensitive to gays, as well as those who are sensitive to them in the movies. Otherwise, the bright points lose their credibility. People do know when they are being propagandized at, and they don't necessarily appreciate it. They'd be better off going after the really harmful stuff out their, and not sweating the small stuff, because there is no good in showing people that they can't take a joke.
I have not seen Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, but given Kevin Smith's Track Record of fine Dick and Fart Joke Oriented Comedic Dramas, and the early reviews coming in, I think this should be a good movie.
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Didn't Jay actually come out in Dogma when he said in his sleep,"Please don't come in my ass?"
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Why is it so wrong to be afraid of people who are different than you? History is filled with many instances of people being killed by other people, cultures, or nations different from them. Hell, even animals are afraid of different animals....you ever put a live lobster in front of a cat and seen the ridiculous horror that spreads over their face? I'm very cautious when I meet someone of a different race or persuasion, not because I'm afraid of them per se, but because of the different ideals they may harbor, and if their conviction is much stronger than mine. Essentially, I'm afraid of conflict with that person, and thusly afraid of that person and their actions in regard to that conflict. This does not mean that I treat them rudely, or hurl insults at them, but everyone deals with their fear differently. Jay, for instance, insults what he doesn't understand, while I would clam up, and just be uncomfortable. I don't agree with people who insult what they don't get, but I think it's a viable way of dealing with that fear. Unfortunately, it also offends the other person, often increasing the conflict, which is my reason for not hurling epithets. Black, white, yellow, red, gay, straight, blind, dumb, paraplegic, or any combination of the above, we've all run into someone who puts us on guard. Your method for overcoming that fear is just that, your personal method. I personally find it funny to see caricatures of the two avoidance methods I mentioned above being best friends in Kevin's movies. Jay will call anyone in the world a fag or whatnot, and Silent Bob will just sit there uncomfortably and smoke a cigarette. Why doesn't anyone get pissed at Bob for not immediately espousing that persons beliefs or touting the benefits of living that character's lifestyle? Well, enough of my James Joyce bullshit, all in all, offensive is funny because it takes us out of our little world, forces us to look at ourselves in a new light, and realize we take ourselves way too seriously. But there is a world of difference between offensive and hateful. And Jay is offensive, but not hateful, because otherwise, he would'nt be so damned funny.
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I am a Liberal. If you don't like that, you can go overthrow the constitutional government, set up a police state, and hunt us all down like the dogs we are!
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Seriously, fellas, I'm disappointed you again thought to spout that kneejerk propaganda about "liberals being hypocrites about openness and tolerance"
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I will not insult your intelligence, or any of the other readers by claiming that liberals are exclusively tolerant and open minded (or exclusively the source of such thought). But I won't insult my own by not giving the converse statement as well: Yes there are some bigots among us, but not the majority of us. I don't know how many times I've heard a dittohead (that is, someone who actually buys the political propaganda against the liberals) make claims about EVERY liberal being morally deficient, of low intelligence, or whatever lack of virtue they can think up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Kevin Smith does not qualify as a bigot. He makes movies that suggest things that are outrageous, but not simply for shock value. He has points. You may not always like them-- Hell, I may not like them sometimes, but I don't think he's a racist, a homophobe, or a complete blithering idiot either. He makes movies that defy stereotypes, that force people to consider things from a different angles. He also delivers some of the most raunchy, least censored humor this side of the Farelly Brothers. Humor that has seeped into public acceptance because of both the liberalization of values AND the republican supported capitalism of big business, where the MARKET determines what sells! Smith at least is interested in actually dealing with our cultural values at the same time he exercizes his God given Capitalistic American rights. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, you only have to look at Chasing Amy and Dogma to see where his sympathies lie. In Chasing Amy, he shows all kinds of Gays and Lesbians as regular people, and makes a rather good plea for the acceptance of people like that. Holden's romance fails because he focuses too much on the sexual side of it all, and fails to understand it as an issue of identity. That Joey Lauren Adam's Character was who she was, and that she wasn't merely what gender she chose to sleep with. In Dogma, He has a Black apostle, A Black Jesus, and a View of Catholicism, that is reverent to all the right things: faith, understanding, and goodwill towards others, and not reverent towards things like human infallibility, judgementalism, and the use of irelevant criteria (race, gender, and marketing) in creating religious beliefs.
I would be a little critical about his stand on the place of beliefs in religion, but only a little. It's a mark of his open-mindedness that he doesn't exclude insensitivity and bigoted characters from his work, since he understands that, in their proper place, they can be harmless, exposed for what they are, or make a good point for their opposites in society. -
Every single one of you, KS defenders and detractors alike. The defenders keep saying the use of offensive language in Veiw Askew movies is okay because "it's just a comedy" and "it's just fucking funny." WRONG! Kevin Smith movies aren't just COMEDIES. They are SATIRES! Big difference. According to my big-ass dictionary, a COMEDY is "a dramatic work that is often light and often humorous OR satiric in and that usually contains a happy resolution of the thematic conflict." A SATIRE is "a...work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit." In other words, a comedy is sometimes something that is just funny and (usually) inoffensive. A SATIRE, on the other hand, is a very specific form of comedy that forces the reader/audience to think about something. A satire is also something that takes a specific political or social position by "attacking" an opposing veiwpoint. Comedies are "just fucking funny." Satires are something else entirely. Satires force you to think and to question, and when someone is forced to think about something and/or questions something he/she doesn't want to, this person usually gets pissed. That's why GLAAD is coming down on Kevin Smith. The same thing happened to Johnathan Swift with "A Modest Proposal." He wrote a satire attacking the British for their treatment of the Irish underclass, and his work was misrepresented and he was portrayed as anti-Irish. The point is .... THINK FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!! Whether or not you agree with what Kevin Smith says or the words he puts into the mouths of his characters, try to discern his intention before you attack him. And don't dismiss him by attaching him with a label that doesn't fit, because to dismiss him is to underestimate him and underestimate the power of his voice. Thanks, that's all.....
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I'm not what you'd call a Kevin Smith fan... not that I don't like him, but I've only seen clerks & 3/4 of Dogma. And I'ma gay teenager... I know how it works when it comes to tolerance and I know it isn't all roses. BUt I Didn't buy it when they tried to blame columbine on the media & I don't buy the arguement that this is gonna cause violence. You people overestimate the power of a movie. The worst thing that will come from this movie is that it will offend some gay people & and far left gay sypathizers (judging from this talk back.... I haven't read the whole thing so I can't respond to everything). I've been called a fag & insulted for being gay... it doesn't bother me because A) they're true and B) sticks & stones, ya know? Fag is a meaningless word that doesn't mean much. Because someone tells me it's derogatory means I'm supposed to be offended by it? I'd be much more offended by being told I was a biological error or that I was more likely to be a kid toucher because that is obviously from someone with an antigay agenda. If Jay went through the movie screaming that gays should be killed, or even REASONS why gay people were subhuman, I'd change my tune... but gay & fag are just words & sticks and stones can break my bones and I have a sense of humor. This fag says lighten up.
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Okay, I see where you're coming from. I figured Alyssa was just a lesbian who decided that she could have sex with men, but I forgot about that whole "finger cuffs" part (probably shoulda seen it more than once...). But then again, the idea that most lesbians are just straight women who swear off men seems to be another urban legend thrown around by confused white folks... like me. Based on what little I know about the human mind, isn't homosexuality imprinted on people at an early age? You can't just lock yourself in your apartment after a tough breakup, watch Lifetime for three days in a row, gorge yourself on Ring Dings, and then step outside and say, "Hot damn! I'm a lesbian!". Of course, I once thought lesbians were people from a country called Lesbia, so what do I know? Nothing! I'm gonna check out "Amy" again to make sure I got it. This has been a Moment with User ID Indeed! PS- Don't get me started on Anne Heche.
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It's very impressive of all the people who have posted here to take sides on a movie that hasn't even come out yet. I doubt that all of you have seen the few special screenings(I know I haven't). But since you are all going to talk without basis I don't see why I can't join in.
It's apparent that a lot of the people posting to this forum believe that all Kevin Smith Fans are mindless imbeciles who will blindly follow thier leader. Sort of a kin to several religious extremist groups. You're also responding to the article written on the movie and not it's creator itself.
Now I can't say for sure if this movie is homophobic or not(I haven't seen it and hopefully it will not wind up on the cutting room floor). What I can talk about is the directors past having seen his other films. In "Chasing Amy" there is a scene that unfortunatly only appears on the laserdisc and dvd that clearly explains his view on homosexual slurs. KS is totally aware of the consequences of using these words, and as far as I have seen he has used them no to bash Homosexuals but to reveal information about the characters ala Archie Bunker.
I believe GLADDs concerns are not related to the context of the words but to the fact that the majority of the public will miss the point of him using them and will only hear the words. Judging from this forum they might be right. But censorship is not any kind of answer. IF YOU HAVEN'T READ "FAHRENHEIT 451" DO SO. In order for there to be any real progress there has to be freedom to discuss things and present them in their true form. that includes Kevin Smith AND Dr. Laura. If you don't like what they are saying then present your view write an editorial with FACTS and maybe people will listen to you instead of them. That is the only way.
As I end this rant I must give praise to Kurt Cobain I will never throw my ripped jeans away. -
It's sooo obvious. Just like you Harry sweetie. And I love all of you!
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I'll have to wait and see what context its in before I form an opinion but it will come down to how its used. As someone who is gay, I dont like to be called Fag but I am "Gay."
I can see how people could take offense to it if used wrong and how people might think that it could start a trend which i dont want but unless GLADD has really something concrete to walk on, I really think they should stay out of it and let people make up their own decisions.
I dont think K.S is a Homophobe or at least I dont get that from seeing him movies and unfortuately I dont know the guy, so lets wait and see.
I am hoping for a good summer movie, something we havent gotten this year except for Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
And Ive always thought Matt and Ben are closet cases and are lovers but theres certainly nothing wrong with that. -
Aug 02, 2001 9:43:42 PM CDT
I like how Harry and the Webmaster Allowed you all to just insul
by justice41
Race, culture ,ethnicity and Orientation on this talkback. Either He is Racist himself or he's trying to make a point about freedom of speech. Yes I did read some of Smith's response to G.L.A.A.D,and he was just as big a closeted homophobe as the characters he writes. I mean what kind of person, in a response letter to an organization, he supposedly supports, goes out of his way to insult them, while all the while telling them he's soo into the gay lifestyle and a supporter of said lifestyle. Methinks Kevin Doth Protest A Bit Much. Well at least the mindles minions of His movies will fork over hard earned dollars,so Kevin can pay his car payment and mortgage.As for you cowardly Libs why can't ya just Pick a side already, stop straddling the fence.Either you support these mainly liberal Special Rights Groups or you don't,but to abandon them because the target this time is a fave of yours... well that's the essence of hypocracy,Can't have it both ways boy's and girls.Choose now and choose wisely.and to sit here now ,bashing said Group is where the Lies come in.Denying this group after supporting them is just plain ole cowardice and makes you all liars as well as hypocrits.Before you jump on me and try to tie me to the Church see post above or below for the score on that. Can someone tell me why my post is at the top of this talkback?
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I HATE (
Boy, am I an angry little boy or what??? -
GLAAD can, of course, protest if they want too--but this comes across as nothing but attention-grabbing. There hasn't been anything to protest lately...oh, there's a Kevin Smith movie out where the characters say "gay" and "fag" so let's protest that and get some press. Have they *not* seen his other films? I mean, if your going to protest, do it right and protest *all* the films, rather then just when you feel like some press.
This is fiction...anyone watching the film would know these characters, for using what are deemed slurs, would not actually go out and attack a gay man or woman. They call each other these names...they don't express any desire to hurt anyone. We're talking two guys you'd probably try your hardest to avoid in real life.
GLAAD should concentrate on other things, rather then a movie that most of the general public won't watch.
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because it's their job! It's what they're supposed to do. GLAAD is supposed to explore every nook and crany (think whatever dirty thoughts you wish) of the popular (and not so popular) media and find something to get upset about. That's what GLAAD is designed to do. Why, you ask? Is it about censorship? No. Being a little edgy and paranoid is a perfectly resonable response when you live in a society that routinely shits all over you rights and treats you like a third class citizen. That's why GLAAD is upset. Are they right? Well, I happen to like Kevin Smith movies and am about the gayest homosexual you could ever hope to meet, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, no, this movie is no big deal. It'll probably be funny and more screenworthy than Pearl Harbour, which isn't saying alot, but there you go. You have to forgive an itchy trigger finger on the kids at GLAAD, because, hey, we're the last minority that it's still ok to spit on. Living in a country that would like you to not exsist can make you a little jumpy. Word to your mother.
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Just because you're gay doesn't automatically make you a target. Being a fat white boy automatically makes you a target (like me). Just because the world won't pander to your every whim and right every injustice done to you and your's doesn't give you license to slander a man over a work of fiction. Trust me, I've wanted to beat the tar out of Ben Stiller for that piece of shit "Heavyweights" ever since it came out, it'll never happen.
So what if some punk kid comes out of the theater spouting homophobic lines from J&SBSB? He's never gonna get laid anyway.
This world of imaginary oppression and degredation and overly sensitive "I'm OK, You're OK" nonsense has been going on for far too long. I mean, shit, I'm in a group of people who've been and still are the most blatantly opressed people in history. Fat white males. I was forced to do the "Truffle Shuffle" at parties, for fuck's sake. Name one fat white male who wasn't exploited, beaten, ridiculed, or otherwise molested for being a chunky butt by any and all races, creeds, sexes, or sexualities and I'll shut the fuck up for all time. You never saw fatboys form a political group and march on Washington.
You think ethnic and sexual slurs suck, ever dabble in "fat jokes"?
You don't see me bitching to the press at how unfair the world is, nope, not me, uh-uh, no way, never. So get over it, but more importantly, get over yourselves.
P.S.: If you say "Weight Watchers", I will find you and burn your home to the ground, Ben. -
Aug 02, 2001 11:28:10 PM CDT
It is under my understanding that many of you Kevin Smith fans a
by sadpanda
Ahem. =|Mr. Blonde: "If you're going to talk like a bitch, I'm going to slap you like a bitch."\= =|Nice Guy Eddie: "Hey look daddy, he goes in a white man and comes out talking like a fucking nigger."|= =|Mr. Pink: "You guys are acting like a bunch of fucking niggers! You ever work with niggers? Just like you saying they're gonna kill each other."|= =|Mr. Pink: "You kill any real people?" Mr. White: "No, just cops."|= Now I'm not attacking Reservoir Dogs. The film is one of my favorites. But why is it that in a small independent film that advertises much more hate, advocating abuse towards women and cops, the hateful characters and words are accepted. It's knowing that these are only characters, and that these are how the characters would act. Because it's more dramatic it's all accepted. Dude, JAY AND SILENT BOB ARE EXACTLY HOW THEY ARE DEPICTED IN THIS MOVIE! Meanwhile, no one has tried to do anything against them dealing drugs in Clerks. Not one peep has been made. But as soon as they say fag a huge uproar comes. Secondly, something I've been saying since Columbine. No one is to blame for someone else's actions. It's that person's own fault. And it doesn't matter if they play Quake or listen to Marilyn Manson or if they watch Dogma. Chances are, they were gonna go crazy anyway. Now I'm not advocating people blatantly attacking someone's race, religion, or sexual preference. But goddamit, the most important thing a child can learn is the difference between right and wrong. Parents need to lay off the Huked onn Fonix and Barney and teach their kids that going crazy is bad. Don't blame it on a game, movie, or artist. And lastly, and most importantly, Here's a quote from the People Vs. Larry Flint uttered by the genius actor Edward Norton, I say this every time parents get upset at the Beavis and Butthead or South Park, "This isn't about liking or disliking Hustler. I don't like Hustler. But what I do like is living in a society where I have the choice whether or not to like Hustler. If you don't like Larry Flint what Larry Flint does, don't buy his magazine." (That quote has a lot of errors, sorry, haven't seen it in a while.) Love it or hate it, that's just how I see it. Love, Peace, and Chicken Grease, SadPanda
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Ignorance is not having the means to properly gather needed information. Stupidity is having gathered the information and not using it.
To all those self-righteous, over-analytical, anal retentive, hyper sensitive people out there: May you shit and fall back in it. -
Good point, BongSabre. At least homosexuals, or homosapiens for that matter, dont have to be known or come out of the closet till they're hanging out **no pun intended, but hey** with a more supportive group. It was a little tough, for me too, to hide the 150 lbs lovehandles. But maybe you've grown a little *no pun intended there either, truthfully* and have weathered the storm and you be yourself knowing you can overcome such inept souls. Now, Silent Bob isn't a big guy, but he would probably be considered a bit overweight. Did any kind of living large group whine out and bash Kevin thinking he is trying to say that fat people should keep their mouths shut? No! You know why? Because that's not what Kevin is trying to say. And even though they may use the term 'gay' or 'fag' in a derogatory manner, it doesn't mean thats how they feel. They're just terms. I mean, I imagine some of you have known a gay person or 2, in your life. And if so, have you never heard a gay person look at their partner, or whoever, and say "oh, you're just such a fag" or anything? It's just a few words. You know, I believe at some point in the English dictionary, Gay was listed as a word meaning happy or joyous. Fag would also be slang for a cigarette or a pile of sticks in the road. So, when they use a term, and it sounds derogatory, like if Jay called Bob a fag, just assume he meant to call Bob a pile of sticks in the road. Which, to me, would be to the point! And as I always state in my posts...if you dont want to go see the movie, please dont! I'd rather watch movies alone or with people who are wanting to be there. The rest of you bunch of joyous sticks in the road can stay home and whine to your momma's.
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Do I gotta stick my finger in everyone and taste it to tell what they are?
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Aug 03, 2001 4:10:33 AM CDT
When GLADD went after Dr. Laura Kevin Smith fans said: "Well goo
by 20th century fox
You went up in arms....OK TO GRIMACE: Look you need to face facts you were not out defending Dr. Luara cause you hated her and felt GLADD was doing a good thing: Stomping out what you found intolerant... Well now GLADD comes after YOUR guy and YOUR film that YOU want to see and you start crying foul...Well it doesnt work with me...If what Dr. Laua said (and Grimance you misquoted her by the way...) is creating a climate of hate against homosexuals then What kevin Smith is doing is ten times worse...If Dr. Laura comments on the radio created the climate that sponsored the murders of Mathew Shepard and Brandon Teena then kevin Smith has done so also...You accept that Dr. Laura has created the climate cause you despise who she is (that means Grimace you love misogony) and what she stands for. You do not accept what GLADD is doing cause once again its something you love and god forbid those same standards you use to make the catholic church a bastion of intolerance is being appiled to YOU and smith that makes you intolerant homophobes...I'm sorry youre upset that conservates are exposing smith and his fans as the homophobes who create a climate of hate....Yeah it sucks but for the last two years you smith fans have been crowing how tolerant and openmided you are,While at the same time calling conservatives and catholics the most intolerant buch around. Now you are geeting a taste of your medicine SEE HOW IT FEELS....____________________________________________________________________Oh yeah...Grimace I'm sorry you had a bad time with the church just so you know when i was in high school a grungie/goth wanna be high on gerion attacked me in broaddaylight for being a preppie...since KS and his fans (i.e you grimace) I hold you and the entire Grunge Goth movements personally responible for the attacjk against me...
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Aug 03, 2001 5:13:42 AM CDT
I liked the TalkBack. The racism was really good. But there's...
by roguewriter
... did Justice have to pay to get into this discussion? __________ No, Roguewriter. They just let him in.___________ Oh, great! Great Talkback!
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I know I'm probably way late on this one, but I've been out of town. Just a few things. One: Harry, you should go through this talkback and delete the entry of anyone who defends or attacks J&SB who hasn't seen it, because they cannot add anything to this debate. I'll be the first to say that I don't know if the film is homophobic or not: I haven't seen it. So, any of you who have had the good fortune to see an advanced screening of this film, argue away. Everyone else (including me), shut the hell up. Two: A movie I have seen, though, is "Chasing Amy." Let me clear something up for everyone. "Chasing Amy" is not a pro-gay film. It is not an anti-gay film. It is not a film saying that we should all be gay. It is not a film saying all a lesbian needs is "some serious deep dicking." It is a pro-Love film. Let me explain before you throw shit at me. The theme of the entire film is expressed in Alyssa's monoluge near the end of the second act. That by choosing gay or straight, by choosing men or women, you're eliminating half the population to find someone to love. If anything, it's a pro-bisexual movie. Alyssa has been with guys. She has been with girls. She's pidgeon-holed herself into the category of "lesbian." She goes out with Holden; her perceptions change. But her next lover is a girl. Holden, also, while he's always been with girls, realizes that he can be attracted to a guy. That he loves Banky as much as he loves anyone, I guess. As far as the new flick goes, I'll tell let you know WHEN I SEE IT!!! --Look in your heart, Tommy. Look in your heart.
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Hey, Bernie...If I read your name and decided that you are Jewish, should I do my best to insure that you are deleted? 'Cause, ya know, I ain't Jewish and all. As a matter of fact, I am not only "not" Jewish, I never have been and don't understand those who are. So , should I be deleted if I don't undersatnd who you are or if I have never experienced "Jewishness"? I think that has been done, but it wasn't Harry deleting people.
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I'd still be in line to see the movie!
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You really hate anybody different than you, don't you? I'm sorry, you were attacked for being a Prep, but don't you dare lump me in with your attackers because you see everyone 'not like you' as being against you. I'm nothing like them, there are no words to describe me. I've even voted Republican a few times, because I thought the candidate was worthwhile. Stop trying to justify your twisted world-view, it's just pathetic. You were poured into a mold and never allowed to think for yourself, were you. Just remeber this, you reap what you sew!
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I'm sick of every organization crying like bitches every time a movie supposedly offends them! I'm black, but that doesn't mean that I have to be offended by Pulp Fiction, The Godfather, or The Sopranos which I have enjoyed more often than I care to count. Jackie Brown had the word "Nigger" in it over 60 times and whether or not it was offensive is a mute point to say the least. Most if not all cinema ever has reflected different aspects of reality in some way or another. TRYING TO CENSOR OFFENSIVE MATERIAL FROM ENTERTAINMENT IS ABOUT AS REALISTIC AND WORTHWHILE AS TRYING TO CENSOR IT FROM REAL LIFE!!
All of these WATCHGROUPS have one thing in common they act like they are the only ones on the planet who recieve racism or prejudice. The reality of it is everyone catches some form of prejudice in the end. Our mission as a society instead of trying to deny people there first amendment rights should be to overcome the stupidity within this country. As long as the world is an offensive place there is going to be offensive entertainment. HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE PEOPLE... IF YOU DON'T LIKE BEING OFFENDED, DON'T TRY TO CHANGE THE ART FORM THAT REFLECTS SOCIETY'S IGNORANCE, SPEND YOUR TIME AND ENERGY TRYING TO CHANGE THE IGNORANT SOCIETY!!!! -peace! -
to pull this crap-I read Kevin Smith's letter and the guy from GLAAD who he talk to told him that Miramax was donating 100 grand to the Matthew Shepard Foundation so KS said he would be happy to give 10 grand. Maybe if he had given 200 grand,GLAAD would've been happy,but,oh-no,it's all about the money.
This is why special interest groups have lost most of their credibilty-they raise a fuss,ask for money and then use that against you. It's a shame that Kevin's getting hassled again(love the Dogma Special Edition DVD)but atleast he's in good company-Scorese,Kubrick,Tarantino and so on.
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