Movie News

KISS OF THE DRAGON Kicks MORIARTY's Ass!!

Published at: June 25, 2001, 2:58 a.m. CST

Hey, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab.

I gave up caffeine this week.

Had to. I'm ferociously hooked on the stuff, and I've developed a horrible Mountain Dew habit. I use the stuff to wake up, to work at night, to keep myself going. It got so bad that Henchman Mongo became confused and started calling Mountain Dew "lifeblood" in public.

As a result, I've been feeling like I was in need of a strong, solid adrenaline jolt, something that would shake me from my haze and get me focused again. I had no idea what I was supposed to substitute.

Then I saw KISS OF THE DRAGON, and I got my jones fixed in a major, major way. My headaches are gone, my system is flooded with go-juice, and I am pleased to announce that we have finally been given a summer film that you don't have to call a "guilty pleasure" to justify enjoying, an action film that plays hard and plays for keeps, and a rollercoaster ride that doesn't insult you as it shakes you about. To tell you the truth, I think I'm in love.

I don't get invited to Fox movies. It's as simple as that. Never happens. I never see them early. So I wasn't even making plans for KISS OF THE DRAGON. I just figured I'd pay and catch a matinee show opening day. I've been curious ever since we heard Luc Besson and Jet Li were working together in some way. The trailer is fun, even if I don't think it's jaw-dropping, and the new TV spots had me even more interested. Then I got an e-mail towards the end of the week inviting me to the Fox lot. Not from Fox, but from someone else on the food chain on this particular picture, and I couldn't resist. Despite a wicked headache that made my left eye feel like it was going to rupture, I joined Robie and headed over in the middle of Saturday afternoon, settling in for the film without any real expectation.

And now, two days later, I find the film growing in my memory as I return to images and scenes, still managing to make me smile even now. KISS OF THE DRAGON is not a complicated film. It's not a deep film. In some ways, it's a silly film. But I don't care one little bit. KISS OF THE DRAGON has something that no summer film has so far this year: genuine over-the-top anything-to-please energy, and it's an action lover's wet dream, sleek and satisfying, totally European in sensibility, better acted and shot than it seems to have any right to be.

There are three stars in this film. Jet Li plays Liu Jiuan, a cop from Beijing who has been sent to Paris to help bust a drug smuggling ring, and I really like his quiet, diminuitive charisma here. I thought they misused him in ROMEO MUST DIE and LETHAL WEAPON 4, but this time out, he's credited with the story for the film, and Jet seems to know exactly how he should be used in a movie. He's a man of few words, and the first 10 minutes of the film are just propulsive motion as he arrives in Paris, finds his contact (played by Bert Kwouk, the one and only Kato from the PINK PANTHER films), then goes to meet the French authorities he has been sent to assist. He's put through a series of checkpoints before he finally comes face to face with Richard (Tchecky Karyo), a high-ranking police detective who is beating a man to death when they meet. Right away, Richard comes across as the French cousin to the crazed character played by Gary Oldman in THE PROFESSIONAL, and I was hooked. If you're going to play a barking-mad bad guy, then go for broke. Do it. Rip it up. Don't hold anything back. Karyo is typically more laid-back and restrained in his roles, so this is a lot of fun to watch. He's definitely the second star of the film, an important part of the equation. After all, a film like this is only as good as its bad guy.

And it's no spoiler to say that Richard is the bad guy, the French connection in the drug trafficking circuit. They set it up with the film's first major action sequence, in which Richard tries to kill his Beijing contact and frame Liu Jiuan, only to see things go quickly to hell when the Chinese agent proves to be incredibly resourceful. By incredibly resourceful, I of course mean he's able to fight huge armies of people single-handedly and scamper up and down the outside of hotels and the inside of laundry chutes like a monkey with suction cups. This first giant action scene sets the tone for the rest of the film, and it's a doozy. If you're not grinning from ear to ear by the end of the sequence, get up and leave, because you're in the wrong damn theater.

I'm betting on the grin, though.

The screenplay by Luc Besson and Robert Mark Kamen, their first collaboration since THE FIFTH ELEMENT, is a lot of fun, and Besson proves here that he has a distinct signature as an action producer, much like Bruckheimer or Silver, and that unlike those two, he is able to walk that fine line between trash and flash with an unfaltering balance. There are cliches a-plenty here, but they're handled with real flair.

For example, there's the Bridget Fonda character, Jessica. She's an American who got tangled up with Richard when she came to Paris, and he's taken her daughter, hooked Jessica on smack, and turned her out as a street whore. Most actresses would be lost in a role like this, just walking through it, but Fonda has a ruined beauty and a great inner light that makes her both heartbreaking at times and genuinely attractive. She and Jet become entangled as a result of that first hotel-room sequence, and she manages to make the role much more interesting than just an average romantic interest. I've been madly in movie love with Fonda since ARIA, and as she gets older, I find her endlessly interesting in the types of choices she makes. She's a film geek to an extreme (anyone who would want to star in a remake of Fulci's THE PSYCHIC is okay in my book), and she supposedly starred in POINT OF NO RETURN just because she was a fan of Besson's original NIKITA. Now she's managed to end up in an authentic Besson production, and she digs into the role, turning it into something memorable and even touching.

And make no mistake... this may be directed by Chris Nahon, but Luc Besson's fingerprints are all over it. In fact, his regular director of photography, Thierry Arbogast, is the film's third star. His work here is one of the reasons I got so giddy while watching. I've railed again and again about geography in action, and the way Arbogast and Nahon have captured the wicked fight choreography by Li and Corey Yuen is specific and smart in scene after scene. They set up beats, then pay them off. It's exciting, and it's not just the occasional move that works, either. Each sequence has its own pulse, and there's genuine wit to the way the action builds.

Really... there's no other way to put it. This film was a pleasure to watch. I made the decision early on to surrender myself to it completely because of the confidence it exhibited, even though I don't for a second believe it's set in the real world. That doesn't matter to me because of the internal logic of the picture. They set up the rules and they play by them, and it's never too easy for Jet to win. The fights in the film are bone-crunching, and he gets tossed around quite a bit. There's something really lovely about casting a huge cast opposite Jet. It makes him look three feet tall, and when he goes into serious ass-beating mode, it's even more fun to watch. He has to work for it. He earns it, and he earns our investment as an audience at the same time. I love the way he uses the acupuncture needles he wears in a band around his wrist, immobilizing people and easing pain in equal measure. I love the way the title is finally explained. I love Karyo's exit from the film. I love the way the sound is mixed here, so loud and concussive it'll make your clothes shake.

I don't want to give away a single action gag in the film, even though last night I found myself recounting an entire sequence to Harry Lime on the phone, laughing as I did so, breathless just in retelling it. I'll say this; don't go expecting the same tired wire-fu we've had jammed down our throats over and over in the past few years. This isn't like that. It's more about the contact, the skin-on-skin fights that even leave bruises on the people in the back row of the theater. This is a kinetic visual ride, and it's one worth taking several times. I'll be back in theaters on opening day, and I'll be taking people with me. I hope Jet Li is an active participant in all of his films now as a producer and creator, because so often, major Hong Kong talent gets screwed when they try and slip into the American studio system. Here's a case where someone did the impossible: they knocked it out of the ballpark without compromising their identity at all. It's glorious to behold, especially amidst this summer of unrelenting mediocrity.

"Moriarty" out.





Readers Talkback

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  • June 25, 2001, 3:07 a.m. CST

    Li + Karyo + Besson = KICKASS!!!

    by NUXX

    What a relief.... I couldnt bear if this dream come true action flick didnt rock. I still get teary-eyed when i watch DOBERMANN, Euro-Action flicks is something that should be exploited far more and far better. This looks likes it delivers! NUXX OUT....

  • June 25, 2001, 3:16 a.m. CST

    Summertime sleeper R hits...

    by Dlhstar

    It seems that every summer for that last few years, an R rated film has come out of almost nowhere to be a suprise hit: 1997, IIRC, was Face Off. 1998 was Something About Mary. 1999 was American Pie and Blair Witch. 2000 was Scary Movie. Will 2001's summer sleeper R be KoD?

  • June 25, 2001, 3:20 a.m. CST

    yup this will fuckin rock, dude

    by Jack Diamond

  • June 25, 2001, 3:26 a.m. CST

    Please God...

    by Gatecrasher

    I just pray that there aren

  • June 25, 2001, 3:34 a.m. CST

    I think Ill go get in line now :)

    by DoggyDaddi

    Hell yeah.. I saw the previews.. and I just HAD to smile... its not too often I get the "LETS DO IT" juices moving just from a preview.. but I got good feelings bout dis here summer flick.

  • June 25, 2001, 3:36 a.m. CST

    Uh, most of Jet Li's flicks use wires. Especially the ones with

    by Guitarman555

    Fong Sai Yuk (aka The Legend), New Legend Of Shaolin, My Father Is A Hero (aka The Defender), Romeo Must Die....

  • June 25, 2001, 3:38 a.m. CST

    Thanks Mori...

    by Otter

    I haven't heard much about this movie til' now, and now I'm chomping at the bit to see a quality Jet Li movie. Thanks!

  • June 25, 2001, 3:40 a.m. CST

    is that Darth Maul in the trailers?

    by human2

    Seriously, is that Ray Park?It's some blond guy doing a lot of flips and shit, just like the wushu that Park does, right? It even looked like he did a little stance from X-Men.

  • June 25, 2001, 4:18 a.m. CST

    FUCKIN COOL!!!

    by ArchDiver

    nuff said

  • June 25, 2001, 4:45 a.m. CST

    DROOL.

    by Wesley Snipes

    Jet Li in a Besson action production made on their own terms (ie, no studio interference)? DROOL. That's an action film geek's dream! I am so happy to hear that this film is everything we hoped it to be.

  • June 25, 2001, 4:45 a.m. CST

    DROOL.

    by Wesley Snipes

    Jet Li in a Besson action production made on their own terms (ie, no studio interference)? DROOL. That's an action film geek's dream! I am so happy to hear that this film is everything we hoped it to be.

  • June 25, 2001, 5:14 a.m. CST

    Mountain Dew kills sperm cells

    by movie_junkie

    It's true, it's true

  • June 25, 2001, 5:28 a.m. CST

    THE Bert Kwouk???

    by Smilin'Jack Ruby

    Holy shit! Count me in!

  • June 25, 2001, 6:04 a.m. CST

    Baron Von Flapjack

    by Cerclage

    I think you do Moriarty a great disservice with that remark. I am hardly a fan of his, but one thing Moriarty is not is a fanboy of the lowest common denominator. He seems to have a wide spectrum of movie interests. I find it incredibly offensive that a person is ridiculed because he found a 'summer action movie' more satisfying than a 'deep intellectual' film. It smacks of hypocrisy. Reviews at the end of the day, are only opinions and each person's expectations are different. You might want to see both films yourself and judge them in their own context before making snide unwarrented remarks that don't carry any weight logic-wise.

  • June 25, 2001, 6:14 a.m. CST

    Respone so Guitarman...

    by Gatecrasher

    What I tried to say was: Jet Li does not NEED wires. Not with his skills. (I am perfectly aware that he has used them in a lot of his films). They have their place in such flicks as "The Matrix", but should be kept out of genuine martial art movies. All I ask for is mucho ass-kicking, not a bunch of people flying around the room...

  • June 25, 2001, 6:26 a.m. CST

    Wow, I had only heard a mention earlier this week!

    by ewem

    All of a sudden I am hearing about this film! Wow, I really want to see it! Sounds sweet!

  • June 25, 2001, 6:42 a.m. CST

    DOBERMANN

    by terry brogan

    fans of Leon/The Professional/Kisss of the Dragon or any action movie in general will become enrapt with this Besson production within the first ten seconds. relentless, awesome dumb bangbang fun. probably avail as import only, Orlando people can get it at Stardust-and should. Has anyone else seen this?

  • June 25, 2001, 7:08 a.m. CST

    Kwouk+Harry Hill+Badgers=Kick Ass!

    by Albumen

    Now there's a movie I want to see. Badgers on Parade the Movie with full CGI 20ft monster Badgers terrifying Skegness with only Burt Kwouk, Harry Hill & The Man from The Joy Of Sex to stop them. Genius!

  • June 25, 2001, 7:46 a.m. CST

    Dobermann

    by harosa

    Dobermann is an insane action movie and Vincent Cassel is great in it, as is Karyo, who is like Oldman in The Professional on speed. Definately worth checking out, also for Monica Bellucci who's hot in it as Dobermann's girl. And I cant wait for Kiss of The Dragon , hoping it can wipe away the memory of Romeo Must Die, which was an insult to HK and fighting fans alike.

  • June 25, 2001, 7:49 a.m. CST

    To hell with you Jet haters! Lets start the debate!

    by GravyAkira

    Once Upon a Time in China and Fist of Legend kill anything that Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee have ever done. So what if he uses wires for some of his moves. Look at the things he does without them. Incredible.

  • June 25, 2001, 8:13 a.m. CST

    it's true .. this film kicks ass

    by webbster

    I saw it at the press screening too and Moriarty is right. This film literally left me breathless. I walked out, looked up at the sun, and had to take 3 or 4 really deep breaths just to get the oxygen back in my brain from all the gasping I did. Definitely an action-movie lover's movie. No wires that I could see and just a whole crap-load of major league ass-kicking. If I could have sat through it a second time right then I would have.

  • June 25, 2001, 8:34 a.m. CST

    The trailer sold me in 2 seconds

    by SilentBob X

    Finally, a real movie for Jet Li to shine in. Let us hope he's dished the cartoonish bad-guy stigma that's followed him since Lethal Weapon 4. After watching the trailer, I was hooked. Especially after the letdown Tomb Raider, I think I've finally found my kung fu fix this summer. Let us just hope that there's more to come. Snoogans.

  • June 25, 2001, 8:38 a.m. CST

    Jet Li on brazilian TV - us lucky bastards =D

    by Human Tornado

    A major brazilian network features martial arts movies every tuesday night - when it

  • June 25, 2001, 8:45 a.m. CST

    Jet Li vs. aliens!

    by Human Tornado

    There was also a movie that features an Indiana Jones-Like Li dressed up as a 40

  • June 25, 2001, 9:05 a.m. CST

    Doberman.. eh.

    by Wesley Snipes

    Cassel is cool, as are Karyo and Belluci. The cinematography is awesome. But the movie is repellent shite. I mean, I guess that was the point, but everybody in the film is evil/depraved evil and it just goes out of your way to show what a disgusting waste of skin nearly each and every one of the characters is. There really isn't that much action in it either. How much did Besson really have to do with that production anyway?

  • June 25, 2001, 9:16 a.m. CST

    by Wong Sifu

    Bub, that movie you are referring to is called "Doctor Wai In The Scripture With No Words." It's a lot of fun, if you can get over the general cheesiness of it all.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:18 a.m. CST

    An exercise in negativity.

    by Wong Sifu

    In the wake of all the recent negativity floating around this site, I thought I'd take a few moments to offer up some of my own; specifically, my annoyance with the proliferation of "catch phrases" used to express one's dissatisfaction with a particular film. These specimens are usually to be found nesteld amongst the other pearls of wisdom in Talkbacks for films such as Tomb Raider and Swordfish, repeated over and over again ad nauseum. These annoy me to no end, and I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one. So then, without further ado, here's my top-ten list of annoying catchphrases used to disparage films, in no particular order: 1. "Talentless hack" or any various thereof, i.e. "no-talent hack," etc. 2. Any derogatory phrase ending in "-fest," i.e. "crapfest," "shitfest," etc. 3. Slightly lower on the totem pole, but annoying nonetheless, is the "'nuff said" closure often found at the end of posts. 4. Here's an oldie but a goodie, one that hasn't reared its retarded head for quite some time, but is sure to make an appearance before too long: "cinematic abortion!" Remember that one? (One may also, in this instance, substitute "drivel" or other compatible noun for "abortion") 5. Schlock. 6. The infamous "check-your-brain-at-the-door" line isn't necessarily always used in a negative connotation, but oh, boy is it annoying anyway. 7. Waste of celluloid. 8. Dreck. 9. Strictly speaking, this one isn't necessarily negative either, but does anyone else find it incredibly annoying when someone signs their posts with "[insert nickname here] OUT!"? 10. I know I said that these weren't in any particular order, but this one is by far the worst offender, so I figured I'd save it for last, and here it is -- FROM: [insert nickname here] -- SUBJECT: "Tomb Raider was great..." -- COMMENT: "...FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!" This particular witticism is roughly equivalnet to AIDS or crack babies on the humor scale and comes the closest of all these examples to driving me into a homicidal rage. 11. Due to the relative difficulty of choosing amongst the many qualified candidates for this list I feel I'd be remiss in not including an honorary 11th place. This spot is proudly owned by the phrase "Halle's Berries." This phrase never has been, is not, and never will be even remotely funny. Feel free to critique or add to this list as you see fit.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:41 a.m. CST

    wong sifu

    by neef

    it's funny because it's true.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:49 a.m. CST

    Bert Kwouk...What are the chances of that 'appenin, eh?

    by Monty Python

    Bert may be funny on the Harry Hill show, but I for one am jazzed that he's on the big screen again. Trust Besson to cast the one and only Kwoukster. Bert's good people.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:51 a.m. CST

    "Kiss Fear Goodbye"?

    by Elgyn6655321

    I`m sorry, but that`s a really stupid tagline. Not saying anything about the movie itself, though.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:56 a.m. CST

    Dobermann was mediocre at best

    by virkku

    Dobarmann looked good... And that's about it. It had one of the worst scripts in recent memory. And yeah, I did "get it". I didn't find the film disgusting or disturbing, just boring. Horrible dialogue, painfully dull characters and non-existent plot. More than half of the film's scenes had nothing to do with the story and as a result it bored me to tears. The action was nice, but there wasn't much of it. It was just a poorly written exploitation flick with good visuals and mostly mediocre acting. BTW, KOD looks like a fun flick.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:57 a.m. CST

    oh god

    by 811211

    Most of Jet

  • June 25, 2001, 10:27 a.m. CST

    This is good news

    by holyRoller

    I am excited for this movie. I, too, have been longing to see Jet Li be used to his capabilities in an American mainstream movie. Ever since I saw Tai Chi Master years ago (Twin Warriors on the English Dub), I thought he was pretty cool. Wires are interesting and can be used very inventively (see CTHD) but, like the original Drunken Master, it doesn't get better than pure talent at work.

  • June 25, 2001, 10:34 a.m. CST

    Kato? Kato?

    by mrbeaks

    If Mr. Kwouk springs out of a freezer to attack an unsuspecting bad guy, this could be a front-runner for Best Picture. Oh, and to Wong Sifu: thanks for everything, Julie Newmar.

  • June 25, 2001, 10:56 a.m. CST

    Sounds like Li Lian Jie has redeemed himself after the dogshit t

    by Monkey_King

    Thank God for Besson's involvement. Otherwise it would have spiraled out of control and turned into some bullshit film like the Black vs Chinese vs hackneyed plotting which was ROMEO MUST DIE. Now if only we could get Mr. Li to play my namesake in an action film, it would be incredible beyond belief(if done faithfully). Dsai jian....

  • June 25, 2001, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Letterman had to apologize for comparing Mountain Dew to donkey

    by Fatal Discharge

    ...or buffalo spit (something like that). Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where they're creating a new brew of beer with a special ingredient and you see dogs swimming in the beer vat and someone taste it and says "Needs more dogs". By the way, I thought Besson's film The Messenger was underrated. It didn't blow you away but was a damn fine film that was trying for a mix of action and emotional drama and mostly succeeded.

  • June 25, 2001, 11:12 a.m. CST

    various responses

    by IronRabbit

    I only had to read the beginning of Mori's review to know that I want to see this film in the theatre. I WILL enjoy this movie. Gatecrasher, don't worry about wires. I think Fist of Legend is the best Kung Fu movie ever, and it used some subtle wire work. By subtle, I mean you knew there were a few moves that defied gravity and physics, but they were done with a light touch. I expect the same kind of sensibility here. Webbster says he didn't even notice any. GravyAkira, nobody is taking your bait, because we know Jet is great, and so is Jackie, and so was Bruce. We are gratefull for the entertainment each has given us. Wong Sifu, you rock man. I'm tired of these negative cliches that talk loud and say nothing. I wish I could just filter those posts out.

  • June 25, 2001, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Ray Park

    by 811211

    And for someone : it

  • June 25, 2001, 11:40 a.m. CST

    IronRabbit...

    by GravyAkira

    I wasnt trying to start anything. I love Bruce and Jackie. But everytime there is an article about Li, someone calls him a hack who cant work without wires. I was just trying to get that subject out of thee way. I hope this film shows geeks what Li can do. Many think they have seen what he can do through LW4, RMD, or Black Mask. Hope that this one gains word of mouth and kills Scary Movie 2.

  • June 25, 2001, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Not Ray Park.. french fighters

    by Wesley Snipes

    He doesn't even look like Ray Park. But anyway, I believe he's one of the 3 French fighters they brought in for this flick. Search AICN for the old article on these guys.

  • June 25, 2001, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Jet Li

    by Randall_Flagg666

    If you think Jet Li is a hack, just look at his accomplishments outside of his film work. Compared to Jackie Chan, who holds no, count em, belts in any form of Martial Arts. Jackie is fun to watch, I love his films, but he is in no way on the same level as Jet Li or Bruce Lee. Hack, I think not. http://www.netasia.net/users/sgc_wdi/bio.htm

  • About damn time a SUMMER movie came out......this better be it! And since I am a Li fan - I no doubt will be there on opening day............

  • June 25, 2001, 1:05 p.m. CST

    This film DOES look really awesome...

    by Bry-Guy

    ...and I DO believe I saw some extended airtime for a move or two in the trailer. I don't really have a problem with wire-fu as long as Li's not performing eight kicks, each in a different direction, in a single jump. That was great in CTHD, but I really want to see Li in a relatively real-world style martial-arts flick. I really love Fist of Legend, and even though it's a take off of Chinese Connection, are there any other Jet Li films that are in the same vein? I'm not too familiar with his work and am starting to believe that I've seen all the entertaining kung-fu movies out there...Drunken Master 2 being my all time favorite. I never liked Black Mask or Romeo Must Die. Li is too nice-guy looking for a bad guy role, so Lethal Weapon 4 didn't really work for me. I'm sadly none too impressed with Chan's more recent outings since Who Am I? Shanghai Noon was funny, and the rope tricks were fuckin rad, but I want a bad-ass film shot like the end of Gorgeous, without the inspirational "smile" shit. I hope this turns out to be "balls to the wall"! I hope that wasn't too cliche for you, Wong Sifu. I'm assuming your name is pertaining to Wong Kei Ying, the father of Wong Fei Hung (subject of Drunken Master 1 & 2), and his teacher (sifu). Your moniker would suggest that you know a bit about Kung-fu films. Why not enlighten us to your views of the SUBJECT MATTER, instead of bitching about other people's posts? I realize I'm doing that now, but I also served the purpose of this particular talk-back and didn't waste space whining about something that's: a) unsubstantial, and b) uncontrollable. Some people are uncreative losers. That's a given. But, like a television show that's great to poop on, DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO IT. You just fell into another category of things that annoy me. Crying over not WHAT people are writing, but HOW they're writing it. If it causes a problem for you because the "drivel" that you see people posting is making it take exponentially longer for the page to load on your computer, that's understandable...but then do the rest of us a favor and make your little point in four words: "uncreative losers annoy me", and don't fuck with my loading time. Other than that, I should follow my own advice and ignore you, but I thought, from your name, you'd have some wisdom. I was wrong.

  • June 25, 2001, 1:07 p.m. CST

    No wires

    by Aramor

    I read a comment by Jet Li himself that stated that in response to his fans about Romeo Must Die he decided that there would be no tricks in Kiss Of The Dragon. There won't be a trace of a wire anywhere and he'll be doing his own stunts. I can't wait for this film. Afterall, he is responsible for THE seminal martial arts film Fist Of Legend which has the most jawdropping fights of any movie i've seen (and i've seen a boatload). Bring it on. This will be one of the best movies of the summer, if not the year.

  • June 25, 2001, 1:36 p.m. CST

    Not only does Jet Li have many belts to show off...

    by Bry-Guy

    ...but I believe he was Chinese wushu champion, like, five years in a row. I also believe he was rated one of the fastest punchers ever. I don't know this as fact, but these were told to me by friends, so I may be wrong. Jackie's more of a dancer, circus performer (hense his early training at the theater school). Jackie's exposed himself to most forms of martial arts for small periods of time to get the rudimentary elements and rhythms in order to make his own style of Jackie-fu. Drunken Master is, I believe, far from the actual eight drunken styles. Family styles, like the Wong style of Hung Gar (which Jackie is very familiar with), are held in incredible personal regard and tend to be purposely misrepresented when portrayed on the screen. Li's style, from what I know, is a mix of classical and modern-sport style Chinese wushu, which is a bit more like the straight-forwardness of Japanese arts than the sweeping circular motions of Chinese arts. Jet Li is infinitely focused in his martial style. So he is more likely to be seen breaking people's heads with one punch in the right spot, making it easier to defeat ten or more enemies at once in about five minutes, as opposed to Jackie Chan's acrobatic grace which will confuse the shit out of any enemy and still make it easier to defeat ten or more at once. But for him it might take fifteen minutes. These are just my estimates of their respective personal styles. Jet was trained to kill. Jackie was trained to entertain. I hope this talk-back doesn't turn into a debate about these two. I think all the issues have been burned to the ground in the past. Oh...here's one...Why is it $14 for an hour lesson to learn Tang Soo Do, but $60 an hour to learn White Dragon style kung fu? I can't afford that. Maybe I'll just go find a Dragon and Kiss it and see what happens...

  • June 25, 2001, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Besson? I wouldn't see this at gunpoint.

    by Rollo Tomassi

    If "Kiss of the Dragon" is from the writers of "The Fifth Element", that's an absoloute guanrantee of awfulness. "The Fifth Element" was only slightly better than "Battlefield: Earth".

  • June 25, 2001, 2:25 p.m. CST

    human2's list of suckass things

    by human2

    1) Using, as wong sifu did, 'ie' (in other words) for 'eg' (for example). 2) people complaining about CTHD's wires. they don't know shit about wuxia, so they'll just complain about wires.

  • June 25, 2001, 2:29 p.m. CST

    Hey Bry-Guy

    by IronRabbit

    I've never seen Chinese Connection (I know I should) but I think Chen Zhen and the death of his master at the hands of the Japanese are real history which form the basis of Fist of Legend. Wong Fei-Hung may also have been a real person at one point, but is much more of a folk hero now. Besides the Drunken Master movies, he also appears in the Once Upon a Time in China series and Iron Monkey. I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding.

  • June 25, 2001, 2:47 p.m. CST

    what the f*ck

    by Dwellah812

    How the hell did the fast and the furious make $40 million???? Are any of you to blame?

  • June 25, 2001, 2:50 p.m. CST

    TOTALLY O.T. - The GREEN GOBLIN design does NOT suck balls! PIC

    by Tall_Boy

    haven't seen this on AICN, which it should rightfully be anyway. http://www.spidermanhype.com/cgi-bin/archive/fullnews.cgi?newsid993145733,64866,

  • June 25, 2001, 2:52 p.m. CST

    fist connection

    by IronRabbit

    Okay, so I went and looked it up, Bry-Guy, and you are completely correct: Fist of Legend and Chinese Connection have the same plot. However, the themes are quite different. No matter. I love Fist of Legend.

  • June 25, 2001, 3:25 p.m. CST

    There are wires in this movie

    by darthrage

    Just look at the trailer. So obvious. That doesn't mean that this movie is going to be bad. This movie is going to rock for damn sure. Its just that the wires are going to be more subtle and less obvious like RMD. They're going to be the kinda wire-work that was done in Fist of Legend. Fist of Legend made some people actually believe that there were no strings attached. Well there were cuz if there wasn't, he won't be able to do such crazy yet deadly moves. So KOD has strings attached. I mean if Corey Yuen is part of the movie, there is for sure going to be wires. But they're going to wires that is going to be more well done and less unrealistic. If you don't believe it, just check out the trailer where Jet Li is fighting the blonde french guy. THe french guy kicks Jet, Jet grabs his foot and flips him backwards and while the french guy is in the air, he's able to maintain in the air, flip around a full 360 and drop kick Jet. Now tell me, that isn't wires. But still......it looked good. A move like that is nothing close to what he did in RMD. Fist of Legend was done very well and Jet Li said that the fights in KOD will be very much along the lines of FOL and not RMD. I'd better go P ASAP cuz my McDLT that I had with my T tasted like BS, but I would definately give this movie an A or B after I've seen it cuz the FBI, KGB, CIA, DEA and CID will have me in KIA. Anyways, PEACE!

  • June 25, 2001, 3:26 p.m. CST

    Caffeine can be very bad for you

    by CYBERSTAIN

    If you are drinking more than two cups of coffee or one mountain dew, you are overloading your nervous system. This can lead to all types of health problems and nervous disorders.

  • June 25, 2001, 3:29 p.m. CST

    About wires

    by Aramor

    Perhaps the French guy did use wires, but Jet stated that he would not use wires in this movie. I was looking at a Kiss Of The Dragon site and there was an interview about it. He said he wanted to do it without wire work. Jet will not be using wires in this movie. Granted, due to his proficiency, it may appear that way, regardless, but it will be pure Li. Thank god for that.

  • June 25, 2001, 4:09 p.m. CST

    To Darthrage and any others...

    by chronos

    who think its sooooooo obvious that there are wires, here's a link to a video of a Wushu (style Jet Li studied)toulu competition in China. (The vid is approx. 9.5 mb and in Black & White)http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/nsamp42/Sampler2/Wushu-Sampler.mpg For your information, this was all done live, with no wires, and the competition floor is not like gymnastics, its just concrete and carpet. Don't think its quite sooo obvious anymore, do you?

  • Bry-Guy: I am assuming from your post that you don't have real experience in the martial arts. Well, I do. However my boyfriend with black belts in two different styles as well as 20+ years experience is the real "master" in our household. Okay - Wushu similar in style to the straight-forward Japanese karate? Hmmmm. I don't think so. We have visited a former several times over World Wushu Champion from Beijing - and I am hear to tell you that Wushu is very different than Karate. For one: I have been a Karateka (practitioner of Karate) for almost four years. Also, I am half-Chinese. My boyfriend is half-Japanese. Also, Jet Li visited the White House when he was twelve years old - after he had won the Wushu Championships AGAIN. Thought you'd like to know. He's about 38 now. My boyfriend and I have also had the priviledge to train with a black belt of Joe Lewis's American Freestyle system. Mr. Lewis was trained by Bruce Lee back in '68 and '69 and won both the World Championship Heavyweight Karate and Kickboxing. No one else has done so. Also, Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung and Yuen Biao all trained in the Peking Opera. Sammo was "big brother", Jackie was "middle brother" and Yuen was "little brother". Yuen, in my opinion was and is the best of the three. He's incredible. He just can't speak English very well. I could go on forever about martial arts - Chinese or Japanese. I will add that Karate is more Okinawan than Japanese. Aikido and Judo are more Japanese. Well, I'm bein' real basic here. don't want to get TOO carried away <smirk> Let me just say this: Jet Li is amazing! I want him to succeed here in Western cinema! And it's about time we get a real kick-ass Asian leading man. Well, Tony Leung is pretty cool, too. Anywhoos........

  • June 25, 2001, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Amen, Chronos

    by Aramor

    Li DOES things that a normal person couldn't dream of. Many of his moves during his demonstrations and otherwise suggest that he is indeed ignoring the laws of physics, but these are done unassisted. Quite frankly, he doesn't show us the full extent of what he can do. Most of his movies are forced to SLOW him down during many fight scenes because his quickness is such that people couldn't catch his movements, and that's not even him going at full speed. Realize that this man is for real, and he does not need wires. What you will see in this film (at least on his end) will be Jet Li. Period. No wires this time, not that he ever needed them to begin with. I've studied martial arts for quite some time and a person of his calibre can indeed go beyond the physical plane. He has complete mastery of his body and his energy and can do many things that would confound us. Bruce Lee was also a person whose REAL acts were far more impressive than his screen resume. He made heavy bags explode among many other feats. Remember this, because you are watching the real thing, albeit a thing constrained for the screen. If they were to really let him loose the fights would be quick and devastating, and, quite honestly, far beyond what most audiences would accept. Be happy he'll hold back to generate suspence in the story, because he wouldn't break a sweat if it were the true thing.

  • June 25, 2001, 4:57 p.m. CST

    HELL YAH

    by Tyrant X

    This movie is gonna frickin rock!!! I loved Romeo Must Die, and this one looks even better! And one more thing.......What the hell is up with all this "for me to poop on" shit...GODDAMN!!!! I'm really gettin SICK of it. You fuckin losers, think of somethin new and original to say. Cause that phrase is GREAT....FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA im fuckin HILARIOUS!!!!

  • June 25, 2001, 5 p.m. CST

    One more thing:

    by Smugbug

  • June 25, 2001, 5:05 p.m. CST

    one more thing:

    by Smugbug

    whoops - sorry I hit the "return" key by mistake. Okay: Fist of Legend is considered to be a remake of "Chinese Connection". It's been listed as that many, many times. So, yes - it will have a very similar plot to "Chinese Connection". Oh and the reason I mentioned my heritage in my previous post? Not boastin' or nuttin'. Just that I was weaned on Chinese Kung Fu movies - my mom owned a Chinese Theater in San Francisco Chinatown when my sister and I were kids. And we spent many, many hours there watching old Shaw Brothers and Golden Harvest flicks. Oh and Wushu is believed to have been begun by two women since the Chinese Monks refused to teach them. So they began a style that was more "manageable" by and for women. Interesting........

  • June 25, 2001, 5:23 p.m. CST

    The difference between Harry and Moriarty ...

    by godoffireinhell

    ... is that films shake Moriarty

  • June 25, 2001, 7:26 p.m. CST

    SPIDEY PICS! @ www.popculturepit.com

    by dontef

    www.popculturepit.com

  • June 25, 2001, 8:03 p.m. CST

    Wu Shu = PERFORMANCE, Not fighting

    by Wesley Snipes

    The details have been given, but for some reason it's not getting through. Modern Wu Shu is basically performance. Yeah, they have fast reflexes and are very fit, but they aren't trained to actually fight (ie, hurt people quickly and efficiently and defend against attack). Again, given that they are very physical, they'd have an advantage over a regular joe. But Jet vs Bruce, who actually trained in styles meant for fighting and actually competed in true fighting tournaments, would murder Jet. He would also destroy Jackie, who is basically like Jet except he takes movements from any art. The bottom line is that Jackie & Jet are performers and have learned how to perform. Bruce learned how to FIGHT. Having said that, you have to remember something: WE'RE WATCHING THEIR MOVIES! In other words, movie martial arts works best with the guy who LOOKS the best fighting, not the one who is most effective at fighting. Whoever looks best on the screen is the winner. That's why Jet's & Jackie's approaches are perfectly suited to film.

  • June 25, 2001, 8:53 p.m. CST

    my 2cents

    by thevision

    YESSSS! The trailer to KOTD kicks ass and I'll take AICN word for it and check it out for myself-God knows summer flicks have sucked so far(although MUMMY RETURNS was brainless fun!). Anyhoo, thank god HollyWHITEwood has finally wised up and brought in some Asian talent! I got sick and tired of seeing mushmouthed EuroTrash like Jean Claude Van Cokehead, Olivier Grunier and Daniel Bernhardt. Jesus H. Christ!-even American Trash like Lorenzo "The Eighties Look Will Never Die!" Lamas was doing Martial Arts Flicks. Now if they give Danny Yen an A List film then I could die a happy man. I wish Hollywood would give an AsianAMERICAN actor like Phillip Rhee a shot. Rhee has no Accent and his TKD skills deserve a bigger venue than direct to video. RESPONSES PLEASE!!

  • June 25, 2001, 9:25 p.m. CST

    Wong Sifu's list

    by Znosaro

    The one about Halle's Berries. Yeah, I also hate "Britney's Spears" and all that. But my friend had a particularly good one in a similar vein. Relating to Kevin Bacon's odd impulse to reveal himself in just about every new movie he makes: "You know, I'm getting really tired of seeing his Bacon Bits."

  • June 25, 2001, 9:33 p.m. CST

    GravyAkira learns the difference between art and artifice.

    by The Pardoner

    Jet Li is 100% artifice. He is ultimately an high-billed stuntman, and nothing else. Bruse Lee was an artist, whose medium was his own body. What you saw him do, he could do. There were no editors dropping frames to make him look faster, no wires slinging him around like a cartoon character. The sheer awfulness of the first moments of the O'Hara fight from "Enter the Dragon" can be matched by only a handful of films, and by no other actors.

  • June 25, 2001, 9:52 p.m. CST

    The Pardoner should be shot...

    by GravyAkira

    Man I love a great martial arts talk back. Pardoner, why did you have to go along and disrespect my man Jet like that. So what if you feel Bruce is the best thing since sliced bread. I have no problem with that. Bruce worked at a time when production values arent where they are today, and I respect that. But to call Jet Li nothing but a stuntman, you just insulted one of the biggest asian influences in film ever. All those martial arts films you love from Chan or Yen or whoever probably never would have been made without a certain film by Li called Once Upon a Time in China. Li's performance started the martial arts boom of the 90's. And dont get me started on Fist of Legend. I would never insult Bruce nor should you ever insult Jet. They both are very different men who entertain in very different ways.

  • June 25, 2001, 10:10 p.m. CST

    Jet Li

    by Neosamurai85

    When I saw Jet Li in LW4 I jumped up and down happy to see the 80d

  • June 25, 2001, 10:19 p.m. CST

    fight scenes

    by ElGuapo

    does this mean that they pull the camera back a bit and actually let you see the fights (a la crouching tiger, once upon a time in china, drunken master, etc.)... or are they all just a blur of editing (a la anything produced by joel silver)? that's what really steams my cookies about the way the majority of action sequences are put together these days - most of what goes on is obscured by hyper-editing and inappropriate film speed. i'm kent brockman....

  • June 25, 2001, 10:35 p.m. CST

    Al Pacino sez...

    by Al Pacino

    Watch this movie. I'm spent.

  • June 25, 2001, 11:11 p.m. CST

    Let me just say one more thing!

    by Smugbug

    Uh, you say Bruce Lee was more fighting than performing? Uh, if you ever fought, you'd realize that there is a BIG difference between what is essentially portrayed on screen than what really happens in the ring or in a tournament. Bruce Lee knew this. That's why he was such a good performer. Hey, he's my idol. However, Joe Lewis is the only person who has proven Bruce Lee's theories and how they work in the ring. I believe that Joe Lewis could have beaten Bruce if they had fought. But that's my opinion.... Yes, Wushu may be "flashy" - but its a style that I wish I could have learned when i was younger and more agile/flexible. That and Wing Chun certainly are good bases. I can't believe that some you actually have formed opinions on Jet Li's or Jackie Chan's "fighting" ability. Shame on any of you. You have no right. Afterall, have any of you fought a Jet Li or a Jackie Chan? And you study martial arts so that you don't have to fight. Most of the traditional forms are not good for combat anyways. However, that doesn't mean a Jet Li wouldn't be able to pack a punch. I certainly wouldn't want to find out.

  • June 25, 2001, 11:20 p.m. CST

    Wires in the movie

    by darthrage

    The other scene from the trailer where I'm quite positive there are wires is when he kicks the snooker ball from the corner pocket and he's like 5 feet in the air with his body perfectly parallel with the ground underneath him. Is that physically possible without wires? Don't get me wrong, I actually love wires if they're done well like in Fist of Legend. I also loved the high-flying action of Crouching Tiger and Iron Monkey. But RMD really abused it. I'm sure that this movie is going to look great along the lines of FOL. Anyways, with regards to the fellow that disagreed that Jet Li will not be using wires in this film. YOu attempted to prove me wrong by showing me a link to a wushu competition. OF COURSE THERE WON'T BE WIRES IN THE COMPETITION!!! I'm talking about the movies NOT real life! And the movie will have wires in it. 'nuff said. Thank god for R-rated summer action movies. This and Swordfish are probably the only 2 this summer. I like wires....Jet Li, don't lose your wires unless you're Jackie Chan and can do his style of stunts. Speaking of which, guess what?....Jackie Chan used wires in Drunken Master 2 aka The Legend of Drunken Master. PEACE!

  • June 26, 2001, 12:12 a.m. CST

    "Joe Louis was 75 years old when he fought dat fight!"

    by reb55_0

    How come Arsineo can't be in more in more martial arts flicks? That's the kind of stepping stone he intended "Coming To America" to be! Wacky characters doing wacky cheorography kicking ass of wacky bad guys, cmon......oh wait, I forgot about "Martial Law". Sammo with some frozen fish, newspapers, and a cactus is damn wacky, just not Arsineo wacky. *sigh* Hmmmm.....maybe he can take the place of DMX in Seagal's next movie......only wackier. ps. I apoligize I must really buy a thesauras. :)

  • June 26, 2001, 1:01 a.m. CST

    You've gotta be kidding me

    by darthrage

    I haven't read the little message where Jet Li states that he won't be using wires in the movie yet. I have yet to find it. Not that I don't believe what he says, but from his public service announcement that he made on his official fan site, he stated that the fight scenes will be more realistic and hard core along the lines of Fist of Legend (not in those exact words). I believe he means that he won't be flying 10 feet in the air like in RMD. But still, like I said, if its going to be along the lines of FOL and since FOL used wires.....I'm making the assumption that there will be wires in this film and from the looks of it. I'm sure there we'll see some, well not visibly but you know what I mean. I think its better for Jet Li to use wires otherwise he is limited to less acrobatic moves. FOL had great moves with the use of wires without making them look unrealistic. This is what I believe is what we're gonna see in KOD. For example, like in RMD, during that stairway fight....when he flipped backwards while hanging onto the railings of the stairs, that was just awesome eye-candy! It couldn't have been done without wires. So thats what I'm trying to say. The thing I'm suggesting to Jet Li is don't lose the wires, just don't abuse them. I'm just placing my opinion. No need to be biting people's heads off for speaking their mind. I mean you can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. You don't need to prove me wrong and I won't prove you wrong otherwise. When the movie comes out.....we still won't really know. Hell, they can use wires and still make the moves look realistic. We'll just watch the movie and if you agree with what you said, there's really no need to say that I told you so. Cuz you don't wanna stoop down any lower, buddy. Cuz you had me laughing after you told me you wanted to place a bet. What did you have in mind, money order or paypal? HA! This kinda head biting always cracks me up. Until they have a behind-the-scenes on the DVD release. Then we'll know for sure. But right now, just wait patiently for the movie and when it comes out...enjoy it without being so critical please. I'm having a great time with the summer movies this year. PEACE!

  • June 26, 2001, 1:47 a.m. CST

    HK stars

    by 811211

    I

  • June 26, 2001, 3:52 a.m. CST

    Jet Li has no lisp.

    by human2

    No lisp. An accent? Yeah, of course. But lisp? You're hearing things.

  • June 26, 2001, 4:56 a.m. CST

    Bry-guy, My List and Wong Fei-Hung

    by Wong Sifu

    Yes, you are correct in that my name is a reference to Wong Kei-Ying and Wong Fei-Hung (take your pick) as featured in DM 1&2, as well as countless Kwan Tak-Hing films dating back to at least 1949. And, yes, I do know a great deal about kung-fu films and Chinese films in general - not just HK action films - but Chinese history itself is more my specialty. As for your comments regarding my 'list:' you need to understand that I was simply making a joke; nothing more, nothing less. It was simply an attempt to interject some humor. Besides which, I find it interesting that the section of *your* post complaining about *my* post was almost as long as my original post to begin with...

  • June 26, 2001, 8:37 a.m. CST

    You know you're a geek when...

    by TheRock

    ...After seeing the trailer for 'Dragon, your mind wanders off on a totally meaningless tangent involving Jet Li battling that alien from Predator <:) Sorry all, couldn't resist. Can't wait to see KotD.

  • and I still don't know if he could have matched Bruces speed or punching power. I don't know how Bruc would have handled a shot from Lewis at his weight but just the same he didn;t exactly have a glass jaw. Don't forget Bruce also loved american boxing so its not like he wouldn't knwo what he was up against. And it depends on the rules too. Could Bruce use greco roman holds on Lewis or could he kick. Stupid question but there is a reason why Mike Tyson wouldn't fight Ken Shamrock and the reason is a wrestler can get you down and negate that punching power. Tyson would have been hurt bad by Shamrock and looked the fool. Ali was also almost killed by a japanese wreslter I belive who kicked him in the legs so much he almost got blood clots. Point is these questions are moot and ridiculous like the fights would be cause all these guys are old dead or too rich to be stupid and fight anyways! I'll settle for the Predator Jet Li fight the last guy talked about.

  • June 26, 2001, 9:52 a.m. CST

    A stuntman??

    by Randall_Flagg666

    PLEASE. Jackie Chan is the glorified stuntman. He was trained in an opera for crying out loud. And Jackie has been ripping off Jet for years. Don't believe me? Watch Once Upon a Time in China & America. Then watch Shanghai Noon which came out 3-4 years later. Plus, Jackie playing Wong is a joke. He could barely keep up in the fight scenes. Good thing it was well choreographed. Jet Li would kick Predator's ass!

  • June 26, 2001, 10:09 a.m. CST

    I see you're using an old style. I wonder where you learned it f

    by Bry-Guy

    ...I agree with whoever lauded about these martial arts talk backs. Thia one's turning out really well. Smugbug can't stop mentioning the fact that he/she is a lethal killing machine that is the only person capable of acurately forming opinions on martial artists. You can form opinions on your OWN martial art, but don't come right out and say that traditional styles are no good for modern combat. Every fight is unique. Myself, I've studied western boxing. To me, I could outrightly take down a Jet Li or a Bruce Lee. But that's only if I keep my mind focused. Maybe. Martial arts, even TRADITIONAL ones, are a whole vast array of variations on hand and foot strikes...which work in a fight. It seems that being mentally constricted by your own style and not focusing completely on the fight at hand is what doesn't work, hense Bruce's form of formlessness. I would LOVE to study Wing Tsun if I could find a competant teacher. I'm not even sure if I know how to judge one. Even more so, I would love to study Jeet Kune Do at the same time to see where Bruce was taking the traditional style. Even though I HAVEN'T studied these forms, my opinion is still FUCKING VALID. You are nobody to tell anyone they can't form opinions on anything. Nice open minded martial artist you are...if you are one. Wong Sifu, you are very observant. My post is damn near exactly the same length as yours. Good eyes. But I still talked about the subject matter. Yes, in theory what you wrote was very funny in a mean sorta way. There are many valued talk-backers who give amazing contributions to this site AND happen to throw in cliches, which I am capable of seeing past. Granted, I don't think any of them are weak enough to be truly dejected by your comments, but it was an unwarranted attack none the less. We should save our posts about what annoys us for the talk backs for movies like "Save The Last Dance" and shit like that (...alright...I'm sorry if any of you liked "Save The Last Dance"...the movie just doesn't seem to fit this site, though). But that's just my opinion. WOW! Through writing to this site for a while now, I've learned to type the word "opinion" incredibly fast with one hand. I'm evolving. And as NOT to ignore the subject matter, I think it would fucking ROCK if EVERYONE ELSE in "Kiss of the Dragon" were flying around on wires, and little kick ass Jet was trapped by gravity. He would have to turn it up a couple notches from his already explosive style in order to defeat all the superhuman bad guys. Does anyone know if, in movies that Jet would do like "Fist of Legend", they just let Jet take down people using his own almost perfected style, or does he actually study and use an old style from the context of the story? In other words, I don't know how many different forms he knows, but did Jet use his champion wu shu style in the traditional setting of "Fist of Legend"? Did he use Tai chi in his movies of the same name? I don't know. I'm not too familiar with the movie or the martial art form.

  • June 26, 2001, 10:34 a.m. CST

    811211

    by IronRabbit

    Keep your hopes up for Donnie Yen. He is going to be in Blade 2, and I think he is also doing the fight choreography. I would rather see him as the star but you have to walk before you run. Wouldn't it be great to get Sammo, Jet and Donnie together for a big budget production. Ahhh. Well I can dream can't I.

  • June 26, 2001, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Please get your facts straight...

    by chronos

    Y'know, its cool that some of you guys support Bruce ('cause I think he was a great martial artist too), but you guys should get your facts straight 'cause you guys sound like you're mixing up the real man and the myth, and it really discredits your arguement when you're just making up facts. Yes, he was a great fighter, but no, he never fought in any tournaments. He did demos and apearances like at Ed Parker's Long Beach International Karate Tournament, and Joon Rhee's tournament, but he never competed. If you disagree prove me wrong, name one tournament he actually fought/competed at. Peace.

  • June 26, 2001, 11:08 a.m. CST

    "Wrong kid. The best way to beat the opponent is to use a gun.".

    by Bry-Guy

    ...in other words...let's all be friends. Just like I can't say that Monkey style is any better than Aikido, I can't say that someone is not allowed to tell someone else they can't form an opinion on something. That's just me limiting someone else's opinion. What a tangled web I weave when I type, drinking 40's. It's a vicious cycle, ya know?...

  • June 26, 2001, 11:10 a.m. CST

    Bruce is the man

    by Idol_One

    I've been practicing martial arts for six years now. Most of that time has been devoted to Bruce Lee's art, Jeet Kune Do. With all that said, I probably have a biased opinion. But I really don't think Lewis would be able to beat him. Bruce died while he was still pretty young, and never got the chance to study some arts, especially the philipino martial arts. He was always learning new things and incorporating them into his own art. I have no doubt that if he was still alive, he'd still be learning, and would be an even better martial artist than what we all remember him as. By the way, Jet li is also kick ass. Don't care what anyone says on this board, Two guys I'd never fuck with, Bruce Lee, and Jet Li. Well, unless I wanted to go to the hospital.

  • June 26, 2001, 12:23 p.m. CST

    These are movie fights...dammit...

    by DrunkenLoudMouth

    Who cares who could kick someone's ass...that's why they are called MOVIES. They aren't real....so WHO CARES WHO IS THE BETTER FIGHTER. I could care less if Chan, Li or Lee is the better fighter. Have any of you been in a real fight? They sure don't turn out like the MOVIES!!! There's none of that graceful kung fu stuff in a real angry knock down drag out fight. It's more like wrestling and just trying to survive. I don't give a rats ass as to which MOVIE STAR could beat another. I enjoy watching Jackie Chan, Jet Li and Bruce Lee because they create FANTASIES...not real life! Putting one of these talented guys down in favor of another is tedious and infantile. Just let them do their stuff and be happy (too bad an elder Bruce Lee isn't still here for this second kung-fu go-round). As for Randall_Flagg666 who says that Chan stole the western motiff from Li...Jeez...at least do some research before you open your mouth and put your foot in it. The western idea was first thought up by Jackie Chan, who told it to Sammo Hung many years ago. Sammo (without telling Jackie) then took J.C.'s idea and made Once Upon A Time In China & America. Mr. Chan was not amused. Sammo had to apologise to Jackie for stealing his idea before they could be friends again. Jackie then had to change his basic idea to make Shanghai Noon since Sammo had ripped him off with his Jet Li movie. Both movies came from Jackie Chan's imagination, but only one was ultimately Jackie's product.

  • June 26, 2001, 12:38 p.m. CST

    bruce vs. lewis

    by Aramor

    Ignorant people irritate me to no end. Lewis would have been killed (literally) had he fought Lee. Lee wasn't some pretender and he knew more than what you YMCA practitioners know about martial arts. He could control with complete mastery his own body energy. He made heavy bags explode and people fly 15 ft from a small motion of his wrist. In Hong Kong he fought nearly every day because the studios had promised movie contracts to anyone who could beat him. They never did. Many of them were guys who were bigger than Lewis (and probably better fighters since many of them were learning the real ART in martial arts.) I am a practioner and have a friend who teaches and can tell you there is a mile of difference between a true master and some "blackbelt" off the street. There is indeed a mystical (to the common joe) element to it all. I believe that Li also does know about the those things because he studied under masters and a real system. He takes the martial arts very seriously and KNOWS them. Sure, he is flashy, but he knows the method behind it all and can indeed fight. YOu people need to know more before you speak. Lee's punches from a distance of three feet took three tenths of a second to impact, and he could kill any man with a blow. There are several anecdotes, one of which was about a man who challenged him in his own home. Lee said he hit him much harder than he should have because of his anger at the intrusion. The man guarded himself very carefully and he DID hold back. In enter the dragon that guy he hit that flew backwards during the bottle scene broke the arms of the people trying to catch him. Get real, you armchair experts. Damn. I myself know several techniques that can quickly and in single moves/blows incapacitate someone. I can hit someone several times in a second, but i KNOW that Li or LEE would destroy my stupid ass in a heartbeat. Someone at that level never shows what he can truly do (why should he?). My friend's teacher was an 8th dan and he fought Lee. He told him that Lee destroyed him in a few seconds and this was a guy who had been told by masters that he could name his own dan because he had evolved his own style so much. This was not a tournament practioner. Lewis would not stand a chance. It takes a whole life to become that proficient. When you put masters in a room they agree about everything. When you put disciples, they disagree about everything. Lee himself stated something to that effect. Do not make fools of yourself by stating that Li needed wires for that cue ball scene. Hell, I can do that. I recommend you go look for KOD sites. One of them has a link to an article that has Li stating the in response to RMD he wouldn't himself be using any wires. It's titled under response to fans about etc. Also, do a little looking into Bruce as well so you don't make yourselves look like idiots again. Thank you.

  • June 26, 2001, 12:43 p.m. CST

    bruce vs. lewis

    by Aramor

    Ignorant people irritate me to no end. Lewis would have been killed (literally) had he fought Lee. Lee wasn't some pretender and he knew more than what you YMCA practitioners know about martial arts. He could control with complete mastery his own body energy. He made heavy bags explode and people fly 15 ft from a small motion of his wrist. In Hong Kong he fought nearly every day because the studios had promised movie contracts to anyone who could beat him. They never did. Many of them were guys who were bigger than Lewis (and probably better fighters since many of them were learning the real ART in martial arts.) I am a practioner and have a friend who teaches and can tell you there is a mile of difference between a true master and some "blackbelt" off the street. There is indeed a mystical (to the common joe) element to it all. I believe that Li also does know about the those things because he studied under masters and a real system. He takes the martial arts very seriously and KNOWS them. Sure, he is flashy, but he knows the method behind it all and can indeed fight. YOu people need to know more before you speak. Lee's punches from a distance of three feet took three tenths of a second to impact, and he could kill any man with a blow. There are several anecdotes, one of which was about a man who challenged him in his own home. Lee said he hit him much harder than he should have because of his anger at the intrusion. The man guarded himself very carefully and he DID hold back. In enter the dragon that guy he hit that flew backwards during the bottle scene broke the arms of the people trying to catch him. Get real, you armchair experts. Damn. I myself know several techniques that can quickly and in single moves/blows incapacitate someone. I can hit someone several times in a second, but i KNOW that Li or LEE would destroy my stupid ass in a heartbeat. Someone at that level never shows what he can truly do (why should he?). My friend's teacher was an 8th dan and he fought Lee. He told him that Lee destroyed him in a few seconds and this was a guy who had been told by masters that he could name his own dan because he had evolved his own style so much. This was not a tournament practioner. Lewis would not stand a chance. It takes a whole life to become that proficient. When you put masters in a room they agree about everything. When you put disciples, they disagree about everything. Lee himself stated something to that effect. Do not make fools of yourself by stating that Li needed wires for that cue ball scene. Hell, I can do that. I recommend you go look for KOD sites. One of them has a link to an article that has Li stating the in response to RMD he wouldn't himself be using any wires. It's titled under response to fans about etc. Also, do a little looking into Bruce as well so you don't make yourselves look like idiots again. Thank you.

  • June 26, 2001, 1:37 p.m. CST

    Aramor

    by Idol_One

    Right on.

  • June 26, 2001, 2:42 p.m. CST

    hope

    by kingoflight

    looks final

  • June 26, 2001, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Thanks, Moriarity. Kick-ass. Can't wait.

    by Halloween68

    For all you pretenders out there. Jet Li is the now and the future of martial arts. I would go so far as to say he's my all time favorite that I'd go to see in the fight film. Jackie Chan has the best martial arts movie ever with Legend of Drunken Master. But that's it for Chan. I think he's in it more for laughs than for the fight styles anyway. If you want to see kick ass martial arts style time after time with some pretty decent scripts each and every time, Li's the way to go. And you know, I loved Bruce Lee, and I'd like to think that if he was around today he'd come up with styles that would make everyone envious, but Bruce was the 70's, and what he did was great for that era (the best), but come on, some of the fighters out there today are in a league of their own, beyond what Lee did. But then again, Lee could be called the innovator for every thing out there today. But, my point: let it go. Jet and Jackie are the Bruce Lee's of today. But Jet I think's the best for serious martial arts, and part of what makes him the best and the most intriguing to watch is his taste and judgement when it comes to picking scripts and movie ideas. The man is multi-dimentional. That's rare when it comes to asian crossover u.s. action stars. And you want to hear something cool? Jet Li asks his fans what kind of fighting styles that they want to see from him in his next movies from his web site. Isn't that cool? Not many movie stars out there that's that dedicated to their art, but is also that dedicated to their fans. I wish Jet Li all the success in the world. For those of you who question my author-i-tiiiie, go watch Fists of Legend.

  • June 26, 2001, 7:23 p.m. CST

    KOD and FOL wire-work (?)

    by Castor777

    First let me show this to darthrage since I just read over it. 'For his next film, wushu champion Jet Li

  • June 26, 2001, 8:09 p.m. CST

    Kiss of The Dragon action scenes

    by Mi10950655

    Ah Moriarty, Moriarty, Moriarty I could not agree more! The bruising,kinetic energy of this movie is the charm of this movie. Everytime I see a movie of this type I think to myself, `Why can't they do these same type of innovative, imaginative, hold-on--to-your-pants fight sequences when they film Batman?` Is it so hard to fiqure out? Just picture Mr. Li at 6'3", 215lbs but doing the exact same stunts in a dark film-noir style setting (can we say `save the franchise and launch our careers?`). Oh, well one day.

  • June 26, 2001, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Jet using Jackie's Henchmen?

    by Mr Glass

    Is it me or does the fight scenes look like they ripped off old jackie chan police cop movies? I just saw a clip of KOD on THe tonight show and they had this guys fighting with the kicking style of Ken Lo from Drunken Master 2 and not only that but they were tearing up the glass walls like the henchmen of Police story 2. Jet li looks pretty cool but he's using the fake open palm punches from fist of legend. I am interseestd un seeeung this flick but the whole kicking the pool ball seem so stupid

  • June 26, 2001, 11:28 p.m. CST

    Year one, my friend...

    by Bry-Guy

    ...Year one...hopefully by 2003...

  • June 27, 2001, 4:31 a.m. CST

    Bruce Lee in competition...

    by Wesley Snipes

    I should have been more specific. He didn't fight in that many major tournaments that I know (though how many real ones were there back then?), but he did engage in many real challenge matches. The most notable one I know of is when he went up against a Muay Thai guy and got his ass beat. Afterwards, he said Muay Thai would be the art of the future. And what do you know? Most of the successful mixed martial artists these days incorporate a heavily Muay Thai flavoured style in their stand-up game. The moves are effective and simple. So the point is that Bruce did go and train and fight with real martial artists (even Gene Lebell for grappling) and try to take the best of what he found to develop an effective, well-rounded approach to fighting. He wasn't out to develop the best looking moves for the screen (like Jackie), but actually the best moves for real fighting. If you think about it, he was waaayyy ahead of his time. Even 15 or so years after his death, when those mixed martial arts tournaments started gaining popularity, how many guys did you see who even bothered to have a ground game in addition to standup (or vice versa)? Very few. It was only in the last few years where fighters in general have realized the importance of a complete game (and note I'm not saying Bruce could beat any of today's modern Pride/UFC fighters.. But they have 20 years of development in fighting philosophy, training, and nutrition to their advantage). However, the point is that without question Bruce developed his skills for real combat as much as anything else. Jackie and Jet, as far as they've described it and as far as we know about what they do, have developed their skills for maximum showmanship, not maximum deadliness. And like I said, that's just fine! I'd rather watch a Jackie or Jet movie than a Bruce one any day. If I want realism, I'll watch a documentary.

  • June 27, 2001, 10:17 a.m. CST

    this movie looks god aweful

    by simpman76

    You people are all funny. Why ..this movie looks like crap. But I probably will see it for the laughs, hey I saw Charlies Angels and thats as bad as they get. PS...Kung Fu is junk...Jet Li would get killed in a real fight. Dont blame the messanger, just telling it like it is.

  • June 27, 2001, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Drunken LoudMouth was.....

    by KrebStar2000

    ... right on the money. Chan himself has stated that his style of fighting is more tailored to looking good on the screen. He humbly implies that he is a screen fighter and not an actual master of anything (all the while I still fully believe he could knock the crap outta 99% of the 'action stars' in HK and Hollywood, yeah probably even in his late 40's. Li is a real fighter and i really enjoy the guy, but Jackie is still the true master of charisma and screen action. Take a look at Young Master or Snake in Eagles Shadow ro any of the Police Story or Project A flicks. The guy is for real.

  • June 27, 2001, 11:58 a.m. CST

    I can't spell and...

    by KrebStar2000

    I loved that the poster mentioned Yuen Biao. I don't know that he was the best of the 'three brothers' but he does acrobatic stuff that is unbelievable! I heard he was one of the Indians in Shanghai Noon (in fact I'm sure I picked him out). I hope we see him in a larger role in something soon. I'll bet he can still do some incredible things. Hey, maybe a Dragons (in wheelchairs) Forever is on the way!

  • June 27, 2001, 1:03 p.m. CST

    MY rant......

    by ronin67

    First of all its joe lewis the kick boxer not joe louis the boxer. Wushu is for show and and is not practical in a street fight and is nothing like japanese karate. Bruce never fought in any tournaments he only did demos where he showed his ability to dominate a traditional martial arts practioner not a true fighter. Bruce had great speed and power for his SIZE, joe lewis was almost 100 lbs heavier and much stronger, and almost as fast. Joe also put Bruce's theories into use in the ring whereas bruce theorized and practiced but never used it in the ring. When skill levels are equal size and strength come into play, and joe had the advantage. He was also wrestler and as the UFC proved wrestlers have the advantage especially when coupled with jiu-jitsu and judo both of which joe studied. Bruce was just starting to dabble in these styles adn was still more of a stand up fighter. Bruce is awesome and will always be my idol, so will Joe Lewis and Jet li is a great action star and Jackie paved the way for him as did Bruce for Jackie. All these guys are great and made important contributions to the wolrd of martial arts. And until they actually get together and throw down in the octagon know one will ever know who is the better fighter, but my money would definitely be on Joe lewis in his prime. I have 20+ years in martial arts, traditional (tae kwon do, kenpo), hybrid (jeet kun do muay thai , jiu jitsu), and full contact (kickboxing). I' m no expert but after reading these messages I think I know a little bit more about the fight game than you guys. later.

  • June 27, 2001, 10:09 p.m. CST

    why are we still debating about who will win in real life?

    by darthrage

    This insanity! We supposed to be praising the movie and showing our support for Jet Li but instead we're debating about who will win in a real fight. You know one thing is that, its the movies and the fights in movies are choreographed and prepped up so that the people fighting knows whats going to happen next, thus its fake. But it looks beautiful, yet painful. In real-life, you have less than a second to react before you get your head smashed in. Anyways, with that being said, its pointless to say who will really win in a fight, Jet Li, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Ray Park, Donnie Yen, Jim Carrey, Sly Stallone, Bruce Willis, Steven Seagal, Will Smith, Michael Douglas, Steven Spielberg, William Shatner, George Lucas or even John Woo...thought I got my money on Cube Good Jr. Hahaha, anyways, you know why won't know? Cuz it ain't gonna happen and no matter how much you hypothesize and theorize who is more trained and from watching their movies, you still won't know how much each one is better than the other just from watching what they do. Their roles in movies are taylored to them thus makes them look great on screen. Anyhow....with that being said, I hope this movie kicks major ass and really makes a bigger star out of Jet Li in hollywood. This could be his break through action role. Considering all the fights that are going to be in this movie. Did anyone see him on Jay Leno last night? I already got a crew of 20 of my buddies to cheer him on at opening night. Its going to be great!! PARTY ON DUDE! PEACE!

  • June 27, 2001, 11:57 p.m. CST

    I'm tougher than all of you!

    by Rondo

    Why is it that these talkbacks always revert to "these guys wouldn't last 10 seconds in a REAL FIGHT"? It's a movie you idiots!Enjoy it for what it is,not for what you want it to be! Jet Li,Sammo,Jackie etc.are all poetry in motion,but someone who's been a pro like Chuck Norris,or Don the Dragon,suck royally onscreen.I don't think I've ever heard Jackie or Jet claim they were invincible or masters.Why can't you guys leave it alone? Is it now going to be a requirement that if you want to be a martial arts movie star you have to enter into real matches?

  • June 28, 2001, 3:40 p.m. CST

    Jet Li...the quiet assassin

    by Ashe

    I gotta say that out of all the martial arts stars currently enjoying a modicum of success....Jet Li has got the most charisma without netraying his quiet on-screen demeanor. Although Moriarty felt that he was used wrong in Lethal Weapon IV and Romeo must Die....I could not agree with him on this at all. I loved Li in Lethal Weapon IV. He was fast and had all the charm of a cobra, (fascinating, but dedaly). My only gripe with his character is that he died so easily. It would have been better to have jailed him and had him come back if they dared to make a fifth sequel.

  • June 29, 2001, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Wire issue answered

    by webbster

    Check out Jet's website. They posted up the skinny on Jet's wires for KOD. It's in the Projects - KOD section located here: http://www.jetli.com/jetli/projects/projects_kod.php Just click on the link for "Trivia". webbster

  • July 2, 2001, 8:02 p.m. CST

    Kicking Some Ass of the Dragon.....

    by Dmanpackerfan

    that's what this movie should have been called. I was grinning from ear to ear. Everyone see this film asap!!!!