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Joss Whedon On BUFFY's Closer!!!!

Published at: May 24, 2001, 11:19 a.m. CST by staff

I am – Hercules!!

TV Guide Online has Joss Whedon talking about Buffy’s demise and eventual resurrection (to say nothing of the fact that we have to wait till OCTOBER to see what happens next!!!).

Here’s the link to the fascinating interview.

Some key excerpts:

TVGO: First off, is Buffy really dead?

Yes. She's rotting in her grave even as we speak.

TVGO: But Sarah's coming back?

Yes.

TVGO: If you bring Buffy back, then why couldn't you also bring back Joyce?

You could, but we'll explain why.

TVGO: What's the craziest Buffy resurrection scenario you've heard in the last 48 hours?

Buffy shows up in an alternate universe, but I don't think that's a good idea.

TVGO: Do you think the WB purposely added that farewell message at the end of the episode to further confuse people?

You know, it was sort of incredibly classy and slightly underhanded. The whole "Series Finale" thing has been a little cheesy, but actually, I was pretty touched when I saw the message. The fact of the matter is they didn't say, "Goodbye. It's over." They said, "Thank you." So, at the end of the day, I thought that was kind of nice.

TVGO: If and when the day comes that Sarah leaves the show, would you retitle it Dawn the Vampire Slayer?

What I would do with it is hard to say, but that's certainly a show I'd watch.

TVGO: Given that Buffy's death factored into Angel's finale, won't you have to kick off the season with some type of WB/UPN crossover?

No, I really won't. And I'm not entirely sure that either network would want to. Not that Angel won't be dealing with the idea of Buffy's death and her rebirth, but the fact is, he's on his own now. He's at the big scary network by himself and he's going to have other very pressing matters to deal with.

TVGO: So you won't pick up Angel next fall where the season finale left off?

No. Like we usually do, it will be a few months later.

TVGO: Do you know the date of Buffy's two-hour premiere?

I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at early October, but nothing's been set.

TVGO: Will Amber Benson (Tara) be added to the opening credits next season?

No, Amber's going to stay at a recurring status. But she will, like this year, be in most of the shows.

TVGO: Any other cast changes on Buffy?

Apart from Giles becoming a recurring character? No.





Readers Talkback

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  • May 24, 2001, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Could I be first? Does it matter?

    by buckna

    Not really. Missed the Buffy season ender other than about 15 minutes of it, but it seems ludicris that people think that Buffy won't be coming back. Do you really think Gellar would leave so that she can continue to make stellar, career making movies like 'Scooby Doo'? Buffy put her on the map, she's not about to jump ship now since they have a guaranteed 2 more years...

  • May 24, 2001, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Whoa, that was cool...

    by buckna

    The page went from being just a link to the article to also having a bunch of excerpts. All by just hitting the refresh button! Looks like I now have a reason to watch UPN again although my love for Buffy has seriously waned since mid-season three which IMHO is the weakest of all the seasons (4th is a close second though). However, that has been replaced by my increasing reverence for Angel which was a fun show in its first season, and an absolutely wonderful show this season. Too bad that the actress who plays Darla signed on for that Spelling show though, now we'll have to wait awhile for certain plotlines to be resolved. I can't wait to see what's in store for us next season on Angel... Is the Fox lineup for next year out yet? I had a hard time choosing between that 70's Show & Titus and Buffy this year and I'm hoping I won't have to worry about that anymore...

  • May 24, 2001, 11:59 a.m. CST

    to thescamp- she won't stay dead and shouldn't

    by sundown

    and you ain't first you stupid bitch. HAHAHAHA. Sorry. Suddenly I can't wait for fall...?

  • May 24, 2001, 12:03 p.m. CST

    Reign of the Buffys

    by Grimjack99

    As long as they don't have four people showing up, each claiming to be Buffy, I'll be happy. And yes, the preceding statement makes abso-fraggin-lutely no sense if you ain't a comic-book geek. Deal with it.

  • May 24, 2001, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Go Joss, Joss

    by Vulcan Sensei

    Any word of a "Watcher" show? As much as I hate, hate, hate, when characters leave ( I thought I'd never get over Cordelia and Angel going to their own show)I'd love to see Joss SUCCESSFULLY do with Buffy what has been tried with Star Trek. I just hope he doesn't get too relaxed at UPN. They might be giving you more money, Joss, but look at their past mistakes and watch your back. I thought the finale was beautiful, by the way. Can't wait for the season opener!

  • May 24, 2001, 12:30 p.m. CST

    Giles a recurring character?

    by Wookie Pot Pie

    Does that mean he wont appear in the credit sequence any more? I don't care for that at all. And August works much better for me thanks.

  • May 24, 2001, 12:34 p.m. CST

    Please don't let Angel rescue her

    by theharm

    Although I love the Angel/Buffy relationship dynamic and would love to see the crossover where he helps her come back from whereever- it just always seems a Phyrric victory because you know that one of them is going to have to leave. the excuses they come up with to not be in each others lives- although better than other shows still just seem hollow-and must be painful to the characters. Each time they get reaquainted and start to feel their love and then they have to stop or else Angel will lose his soul again- man! It just kills me! It would be like seeing Spike help out Buffy's boyfriend-if she had one- it would be noble and self-sacrificing on Spike's part but he could never enjoy the fruits of his labor.

  • May 24, 2001, 12:47 p.m. CST

    New Slayer??

    by pirex

    With Buffy's death, doesn't that mean yet another slayer is born? This means the world will have a Buffy, a Faith, and a brand new spankin slayer. Hopefully she'll be a hottie!

  • May 24, 2001, 1:06 p.m. CST

    Bring UPN to Austin!!!!

    by abulafia24

    Thank god it isn't until October as we here in Austin don't get UPN yet. Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, if somebody has the power, bring Buffy to Austin!!!!

  • May 24, 2001, 1:27 p.m. CST

    TARA DESERVES HER PLACE

    by Fuckleberry Hinn

    Anthony Head is moving back to England, so his role is being reduced on Buffy (although they are going to do a British-based mini-series surrounding Giles for England); that's why he's only going to be recurring. I just don't understand why Tara is still going to only be recurring when she's in just about every episode. She usually has more lines than Xander, and has more lines in one episode than Seth Green had in his entire time on the show - and he had a spot in the opening credits. (Glad he's gone, by the way.) Don't know why she's a second-class citizen on the show. But she's kind of dull - they should beef her up or kill her off. As for a new slayer, that could be cool. Remember Chandra? The kick-ass Jamaican slayer that appeared the first time Buffy died? She was pretty damn cool. Then Drusilla slit her throat (very cool scene) and next up was Faith. I'm eager to see who the new slayer is (until Buffy rises). Something tells me it will be Dawn, since, as Buffy said, she was made from Buffy and is in a way part of Buffy. With Buffy dead, all of her powers may have transfered to Buffy-based Dawn. That could be interesting.

  • May 24, 2001, 1:36 p.m. CST

    Very nice.

    by carouselambra

    Weird how Joss felt it necessary to get out there and make sure everyone knows SMG is coming back, definitely. No matter, I'm anxious to see how Buffy fits into the show now, being dead and all. I trust Joss fully in letting him do that without it being cliched or stupid. It really blows my mind when shows like this are planned out for ages in advance. That way, the attention to detail is perfect, and rewards long-time viewing. You all remember when Joyce and Giles reverted to teenagers way back, and had a fling, sitting around smoking and listening to music? The music they listened to was Cream's "Tales of Brave Ulysses." This year, after Joyce died, Giles was grieving in his room... listening to "Tales of Brave Ulysses"! I love that kind of stuff.

  • May 24, 2001, 1:49 p.m. CST

    oooh I know how she comes back

    by Cincy Vigilante

    The Scoobs will be sitting around and in the back ground you can hear the shower running POOF out steps buffy much to every ones surprise!! It was all a dream the entire season 4 was all a dream. And damnit I need UPN in Cincinnati!!!!!!

  • May 24, 2001, 1:55 p.m. CST

    Random rants

    by Gasgano

    1) An August premiere of Buffy and Roswell would definitely be preferable; 2) If Buffy and Dawn are de facto the same person, it's unlikely another Slayer would need to be summoned. Dawn has the job; 3) Please put Amber Benson on the credits already; 4) Spike not bursting into flames when the sun rose was likely an indicator of his evolving humanity; 5) Not a major comics fan but I still got the reference; 6) A good opener would be the gang trying to clean up all the dragons, coneheads, and other beings wandering around Sunnydale likely wondering where the heck they are...

  • May 24, 2001, 2:03 p.m. CST

    What's the point really??

    by 2GOLD

    I mean, why kill Buffy just to bring her back? This damn chick dies to much on this show! And Dawn as the Slayer...while still in the low teens!!! Have you all gone flippy! And is it really a good sign for Spike (the infamous killer of Slayers) to be in town when a new slayer arrives on the scene? Boy, I must admit the thought of a new slayer coming to town and finding a defenseless William the Bloody makes for an interesting episode. As for an Angel/Buffy crossover, thank goodness that one isn't happening (and has anyone told Angel that Spike was in love with Buffy or at least helping?). But can one thing PLEASE happen next year, quit making Spike look like a bloody weak character!! He's getting beat down more than Xander, that's just not right! This man can kill Slayers! He's a Vamp like Angel...why does he sudden suck at fighting! Just cause he's a good guy doesn't mean he has to be a puss. And Harry the great, any chance you know an email or number for getting UPN on cable. FX was able to bug my cable company enough into giving me FX, I want to know if UPN plans to do the same thing now that they have Buffy. I NEED CONTACTS HARRY, I NEED CONTACTS HERC, DAMNIT I NEED UPN!! And where is my pudding, I personally told them I wanted my pudding by 5:00pm!

  • May 24, 2001, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Whedon said REBIRTH

    by SuprXY

    He says that Angel will have to deal with Buffy's rebirth. What has a rebirth? A new vampire that's what. When Buffy was bitten and drank from Dracula she never died, so she never had the chance to be reborn. Now she does.

  • May 24, 2001, 2:06 p.m. CST

    come on Joss!

    by Twig

    Put Amber Benson in the credits. She's been a regular for more than a season. Dawn was put in after just 1 or 2 eps. And put The Host in Angel's credits too.

  • May 24, 2001, 2:34 p.m. CST

    Rats

    by Lizzybeth

    Here I thought Buffy was supposed to premere in August, and now it's coming two months later. The Buffy folks really know how to make the fans suffer. Evil, evil, evil people in charge there (I mean that in the best way possible, of course). Also: Tara deserves a spot in the credits, if she's contracted for the season (which she is). If Anya gets one Tara certainly should, since they're about equivalent in screen time and importance. I'll see if I can't hunt down the Joss quotes from his online appearance the other night - he refers to next year as "very intense". If next year is intense, what was this year? Eep.

  • May 24, 2001, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Credits

    by Mr. Morden

    All right guys, listen up. You can stop complaining to Joss about Amber Benson not being on the credits, cause he likely has nothing to do with that. Someone's placement in the credit indicates a standing as a regular character, which is defined differently for each show. That means a contractual obligation for the actor to work in a certain amount of episodes. Amber Benson is likely not in the credits as a regular because she has not signed on for the requisite amount of episodes. Michelle Trachtenberg and Seth Green have/had. Now, in the coming season, Anthony Stewart Head is cutting back on his number of episodes, hence his changing status as a recur. It's how Hollywood works, boys and girls. Credits, and the billing orders thereof have very very little to do with the importance of any particular character to the plot. They are solely the product of what the actor's agents can negotiate with the production company.

  • May 24, 2001, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Buffy was only 15

    by NxNW

    I like the idea that Buffy could come back as a vamp- oh the possibilities- And Dawn as the slayer... Oh yeah! Remember Buffy was only fifteen when she became the slayer (see season 4 ep: The Initiative), so Dawn's not too young 2Gold! My first talkback... I'm so proud.

  • May 24, 2001, 3:09 p.m. CST

    How old is Dawn???

    by 2GOLD

    16, ok I can accept. 15, it's a stretch but fine. How the hell old is Dawn!!! I've forgot!! Is she 15 or below!! What's the kids age!! Too many questions, too many questions....ARGGHHHH!!! NEED PUDDING!!!

  • May 24, 2001, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Buffy

    by Zevad

    I don

  • May 24, 2001, 3:29 p.m. CST

    SuprXY, your right...

    by kobayashi

    I was thinking the same thing. The Dracula episode has to fit in the puzzle somewhere. I was actually thinking more like Buffy was already vamped by Dracula this year but had never realized that she was dead. Goes in line with the 'blood' refereces Spike was spouting off in the finale too.

  • May 24, 2001, 3:41 p.m. CST

    This is the story I'm telling myself so I won't have a snit:

    by Ophelia 's twin

    Joss misspoke in the TV Guide interview. He *meant* to say August, not October. (And until we get independent confirmation of the premiere date, that's what I'm going to believe.)

  • May 24, 2001, 3:55 p.m. CST

    UPN IS ALREADY IN CINCINNATI -- ON A LOW POWER STATION

    by 1013nomore

    Hey, Cincy Vigilante! Cincinnati already has a UPN station! Alas, it is the low power channel 25 which is hard to tune in clearly unless you are near the station antenna without obstructions. It comes in fuzzy on my set, like some of the Dayton stations. I already approached our local Warner Cable about putting the station on, but they explained that they don't have to, and until some things change they won't. They did indicate that they would investigate getting UPN programming from some other source besides local channel 25. I'm not holding my breath. I'm hoping for some miracle this summer.

  • May 24, 2001, 4:03 p.m. CST

    Pyrex- I bet she'll be a hottie

    by kwizats_hatrack

    Even the girl that's supposed to be a nerd, Willow, is a hottie. I don't think there are any ugly chicks in the Buffyverse. Even the old British guy has good teeth!

  • May 24, 2001, 4:11 p.m. CST

    How will Buffy return?

    by otis von zipper

    The idea that she was will be a vampire is interesting but, I don't know, too weird maybe. Too much like Angel anyway. Two things I keep thinking about. 1) The robot Buffy. 2)Dawn shares her DNA. Perhaps Joss is planning to utilize science to bring Buffy back. Let's not forget her old boyfriend's job.

  • May 24, 2001, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Buffy is Immortal

    by bcbuddy2

    C'mon it would be cool. Just think of it Duncan,Amanda.Methoes,Joe and all the mytholgy of Highlander mixed into the Buffy/Angelverse it rock fresh stories and think of the real cool flashbacks of Angelus and co vs Connor and Duncan it would be to cool.

  • May 24, 2001, 7:16 p.m. CST

    Farscape Farscape Farscape

    by SethShandor

    Dammit, Buffy and Angel are great. Buff's still going strong heading into her 6th season! (Hopefully Josh will pull the show if it starts to go really stale and avoid an X-files fate). Still, I'll miss the girl, because as many others have cried.. I DON'T GET UPN! WAAAH.. Oh well, I'll figure something out... As for my subject line.... Off topic? yes. Sorry. But it can't be ON topic when they're never is any Farscape news... I know Harry and crew are only dependent on their spies, but NOBODY out there has some farscape scoops to pass along? Anyone know of any good Farscape news sites? I go to a few fan-sites (yes, I know I'm a dork) I like for episode reviews and humor (http://perriverse.dreamhost.com/farscape/) and (www.crosswinds.net/~johnnyinc/index.htm), but anybody know any sites with upcoming show info, etc. Because the official sites sure don't tell you dick...

  • May 24, 2001, 7:27 p.m. CST

    Cincinnati

    by Vulcan Sensei

    Cincinnati fans -- we do get UPN. You probably never noticed because it get sucky reception and has sucky shows. Just turn on channel 25, put some foil on your antenna, and enjoy. Hey, 25 comes in as good as WB 64, so no big deal.

  • May 24, 2001, 7:32 p.m. CST

    Are we taking any hot pocket bets for next season?

    by Lily Drop

    If so, I am willing to bet that Dawn will not be a slayer. Just because she was made from Buffy and shares some DNA doesn't mean she'll be a slayer. After all, she didn't get Buffy's creepy too-low eyebrows, so why would she get her slayer powers? My point is, the monks may have made her using parts of Buffy, but she was made as her sister, not her doppelganger. They share Summers blood, but not exact DNA. Anyway, I tend to think that the role of slayer is given in some sort of mystical unknown way, it's not happenstance. Plus, Joss has stated that he kinda regrets creating the Buffyverse with two slayers, so I doubt he'd bring in a third.

  • May 24, 2001, 7:35 p.m. CST

    Again here to correct the ignorant!

    by chase232

    Okay, first of all Mr. Morgan (?) was right when he said the opening credits is a Hollywood thing and not really up to Joss, it's all about money guys. Now as for Dawn being the next vampire slayer that's just stupid. One because of what someone else said about Faith having to die and two because being the slayer is not like being the queen of England. It ain't hereditary. Was Joyce a slayer? No. C'mom guys lets think outside the box for once.

  • May 24, 2001, 7:56 p.m. CST

    Dawn Dawn Dawn....

    by SethShandor

    I surprised how much I didn't hate her. Granted, when I first heard about the "kid sister we never knew she had" thing, I was a bit put off, but didn't hate the idea immediately like many others. The Buffy team did a great job adding her to the ensemble, as I think they do with almost all of their characters. It's what keeps the show fresh. I am intrigued by what Josh had mentioned about the Buffy cartoon (screw that animated series crap, its a TOON.) He said it was still up in the air whether the toon, set during the buff crews high school days, will include Dawn or not. On one hand, interesting to see how that dynamic would have worked in the school setting that has already been established. On the other, I think it would be really interesting, if on the live action buffy (or Angel) if the crew ever time-traveled (surprisingly Josh hasn't exploited that concept yet, of course it does get over-used on mnay sci fi shows) back to before Dawn was created and she WASN'T there. Think about it. All of their memories, including Dawn's, would remember it like she WAS there. However, when they are actually in the REAL past, it isn't like they remember because she never really was there. It would be their own past but even they wouldn't know for sure what was exactly going to happen. Does this make any sense? I mean the monk's created her and all memories of her, but they didn't actually have her be born and live all that time. If she IS on the cartoon, how would that fit continuity? Would the shows be "as it was remembered" or "as it really was" And really, I'm the only one who would care aren't I?

  • May 24, 2001, 8:24 p.m. CST

    Another example of resurections in the Buffyverse:

    by Lily Drop

    Is THE ZEPPO. 'course those were walking corpses, so I wouldn't want to see Buffy brought back in such a way... my speculation on how she will be brought back is that she is this: Dawn was supposed to die, but Buffy selflessly gave her own life to save her sister. Buffy wasn't supposed to die, and TPTB (which I still have doubts about being used in BUFFY: they have never been mentioned in BUFFY and it may be a mite confusing for those who don't watch ANGEL) or whatever see the error. Buffy is meant for a bigger fight, mankind's only hope to beat some great evil in the future, or some-such. Her soul is called upon to come back to earth, to right the wrong of her dying. And I am willing to bet that Dawn will play a huge part in bringing her back, and make a sacrifce to do it, thus thanking Buffy for what she did. Dawn was willing to die, after all. Anyway, I bet Buffy won't want to come back. I bet she is with her mother and at peace, and it will take some convincing to get her to come back and be the slayer. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

  • May 24, 2001, 8:42 p.m. CST

    quick question

    by SuperG

    long time reader first time poster...ok so everyones saying how since Buffy died there has to be a new slayer right? Well the thing is she already died. So Faith would have to die in order for there to be a new slayer, not Buffy. I don't think the "powers that be" or whatever that chooses the new slayer would take into account that a slayer could be brought back to life after dying. It just seems to me that Faith is the "chosen one" since buffy died the first time(and became slayer after kendra) so it doesn't matter that buffy died again, because Faith would have to die.... could be wrong, I dunno. I'm just throwing it out there to see what you all think about it, maybe someone has an answer...

  • May 24, 2001, 8:43 p.m. CST

    Dracula?

    by I'm A Golden God

    talk about a red herring...what happened to that storyline? did I just dream the season premiere, or what?

  • May 24, 2001, 8:56 p.m. CST

    Scoobies no more?

    by I'm A Golden God

    Here's a seriously important question for you all: Now that Buffy won't be on WB anymore, will Time-Warner-AOL-Turner-GE-AT&T-Hughes-DirecTV-whoever allow them to call themselves "the Scooby gang" anymore? After all, that's Turner's copyright. I always figured that WB was cool with that because they owned the rights to Scooby-Doo. I did notice they haven't been saying that much lately on the show...I know the shows were filmed before the UPN deal was done, but they still knew that moving networks was a possibility, so maybe they dropped the "Scooby" usage for that reason. Or maybe they dropped it so as to avoid association with SMG's role in the sure-to-be-crappy Scooby movie...

  • May 24, 2001, 9:24 p.m. CST

    Ideas, oh , these ideas...

    by cooper2000

    Where do some of you come up with these ideas? Dawn a Slayer? Until this post, everyone thought SMG wasnt coming back when it has been posted that she has two more years on her contract. I loved the comment made on cinescape when asked if Buffy was going to continue college next year. He said, flat out, she wont be in College, shes dead. About the death thing, I think its a bit of a cheat to keep killing someone and then bringing them back. How long until people start guessing that Doyle is going to help her come back? Why on earth is Anthony Stewart Head moving back to London? All he was doing till this show was Tasters Choice commercials. Isnt he happy to have a job? I am fine with Amber not being in the credits. Maybe she can take some acting lessons during her down time. Maybe Faith can come back and help out. Oh and Joss, how about a better Villian next year????

  • May 24, 2001, 10:18 p.m. CST

    Hey, i know this is probably off the subject but...

    by the_darkness

    On the other talkback, they were talking about how it should have been spike who killed Ben, not Giles... I was thinkin... could spike do that? I mean, since Ben was half of a hell god or whatever you want to call it, i'm sure you know what i mean, would spike be able to kill him? and for that matter, since the stakes are so great, would spike be able to endure the massive pain caused by him killing ben? I'd love to see the same scene as with giles, only with spike, holding Ben's nose and mouth while he howls from the pain caused by the chip in his brain

  • May 24, 2001, 10:23 p.m. CST

    That final cheesy shot

    by TrollPrincess

    Okay, first off, was I the only one who thought that the episode should have ended right before the gravestone was shown? I mean, really, was it just me, or was that epitaph cheesy? (The least they could have done was pick something that didn't sound as if a four-year-old had written it. "She Saved the World. A Lot." Ooo-kay.) Secondly, Spike was NOT in the sunlight. I've heard people complaining about that the past two days, so I rewinded my tape again, and if you actually watch that scene again, you can tell that the sunlight isn't shining directly on him at all. It's light, but it ain't THAT light. Thirdly, August is WAAAY better than October. If I have to wait until October for new Buffy stuff, I may develop a life-threatening disease specifically so that I can petition the Make-A-Wish Foundation for a day with whoever's in charge of getting it on the air. Fourthly, on an "Angel" note, Groo should have come back from Pylea ... damn it, he was cute. Second-to-lastly, I know Joss was supposed to have a cameo on "Angel" before the year was out. I'm guessing he was Numfar (just 'cause, in the words of Herc, I saw the hand of Whedon ... and the other hand of Whedon, making duck bill claps in the background, or at least I thought I did). Anyone know if I'm right (or wrong)? And finally, Joss should have at least said whether or not Spike has a chance with Buffy next year. Seems only fair, what with getting stabbed and hit with a brick and thrown off a tower and all, that he get a little nookie. Okay, rant over.

  • Buffy was 15 when Merrick told her she was a Slayer-see Becoming part 1 and 2 from 2nd season Buffy. Dawn-this past year was supposed to be 14 so next year she will be 15-the actress herself is 16 -so people stop arguing about her age. For those of you who can afford it get a Dish Network Satellite system- they have a superstation pack that has 3WBs and 2Upns for 5 dollars more than their baseline of 30 bucks a month-crystal clear picture people-get on freakin board the program. And they usually have a free system and installation deal if you promise to order at least 40 dollars a month of programs for a year.

  • May 24, 2001, 11:44 p.m. CST

    pike wheres pike

    by andy kaufman

    the best thing about the movie buffy was pike cant they bring him into the fold some how.

  • Give that person a Kewpie Doll. Supes is in heaven all content and is then told he can go back because he may be immortal (I think that's how it went, I read my friend's copy so it's been several years now). Now as to the issue of Angel helping, in the "Buffyverse" there are "The Powers That Be" (they grant slayer power) and they sent a vision to Cordy in L.A. about a woman (Winifred the new series regular), and at one point TPTB sucked Cordy into the land of Pylea as well(this synopsis is for those few who don't watch ANGEL, just stay with me gang). Angel, Wesley, Gunn, and the Host went to save Cordy, meaning the L.A. crew was not around to help Buffy. Now manuvering on that scale would make Machiavelli proud (and I didn't realize this until Thursday morning so I did the dance of shame). A crossover may not have been possible for prodution reasons (or Joss did not want to do it) so the Angel story arc makes sense for those of you who were complaining a few weeks ago(no wonder Team Whedon is in the top 3 among writing teams--Team Chase and Team Sorkin are the other 2). As to the issue of Dawn's age, she's 5 years younger that Buffy, so she is 15 (or almost 15). Buffy became slayer at 15 while still living in L.A. Oh and my UPN affiliate is owned by VIACOM (thank you Mr. Redstone)---later-----m

  • May 25, 2001, 3:07 a.m. CST

    The Reign of Buffy??!

    by RogerOThornhill

    Despite the resemblance to the Death and Rebirth of Superman storyline, I do think Lily Drop's nailed it when she says that the Buffster is not going to want to come back. (And no this does not mean that I am envisioning meeting the Last Daughter of Sunnydale in the season opener.) I think the delays between episodes have hurt the feel of this season, and this is one that I think is going to play a lot better on DVD, when you can go directly from episode to episode. The journey this season has been a descent into depression and the catatonia ep was much more than a one-shot deal. The farther away I get from the finale, the more I love it, particularly the teaser and that conversation with Giles in the training room (which may be one of their last if he's going to recurring status). Her heroic action in jumping into the portal was also, as somebody pointed out on another TB, also a form of suicide. That girl was burned out by the final episode, and if she's really enjoying her eternal reward what possible incentives can you offer her to come back? Her journey this season has, in some ways, been the same as Angel's through February, except he's older (a lot older) and he doesn't have the choice of dying. Good Lord, this is intense stuff, but not in the much clearer way that Angel often is.

  • May 25, 2001, 3:15 a.m. CST

    Pickup Points

    by RogerOThornhill

    Golden God--(1) They dropped the Scooby references because of SMG's godawful movie, whose only justification seems to be putting her in miniskirts, which she doesn't like wearing otherwise. (2) I agree, Drac has to figure in somehow, other than giving Riley a reason to go investigate the blood doxies. However, in the Buffyverse, being sipped is not enough, you must drink in return. She didn't. My whole theory for ages was that that episode was about warped realities (e.g., the opening picnic on the beach, Riley's brilliant comment about being in Sunnydale for years but not noticing the huge freaking castle), but that never panned out. Lily Drop--all props on the she won't want to come back line, not sure I agree with you on the TPTB angle. When he turned mortal for that one heartbreaking episode, TPTB said that he was important and could save her later; this ties in with Wolfram and Hart's "scheduled apocalypse" and the role that Angel has to play in it. Troll Princess--absolutely the stone was cheesy and detracted. In one of the preairing interviews, Joss said that there was a touch of postmodernism in the finale and I think that was it. Its only real function was to ensure us (before he could give another interview) that she was "rotting as we speak."

  • May 25, 2001, 3:49 a.m. CST

    Ben/Glory conclusion was sloppy writing, Joss

    by Drath

    Glory is dead if Ben is dead? BULLSHIT! She's a god! She shouldn't die just because the mortal prison is dead! If it was that simple, the hell gods that imprisoned her would have killed Ben as an infant and been rid of Glory in the first place! BAD BAD BAD BAD! And add to that you developed Ben and Glory terribly. They were just turning interesting at the last minute and then you wiped them out. Why did you even bother with Glory feeling Ben's guilt if you weren't going to use it to develope them AT ALL? That's BAD WRITING, Joss, and for you that's a big deal. Show me this is just a minor glitch in an otherwise brilliant season. Write better antagonists next year, I beg you, because you've been dropping the ball on the bad guys for the last two seasons now.

  • May 25, 2001, 4:03 a.m. CST

    I doub we will see Dracula again

    by spike fan

    I think he was a one off besides the Guy was really crap as a Villan. He got Ass Whipped to easily. As for a Main Villian I do not know if Joss is listening but MAKE WILLOW THE VILLAN!. Cause a bad ass Witch who is Buffys best friend who she cares about is far more interesting than a Glory or Adam who she did not give a shit about so its cut and dried. Also what happened to Joel Grey talk about underused!

  • May 25, 2001, 4:44 a.m. CST

    Best Actor EMMY to Charlie Weber as BEN

    by theharm

    He should get an Emmy for finally dying - I hope that twit never ever gets a job in a genre show ever again- gods above! what a lousy ridiculous excuse for an actor! I had to stop from cheering when Giles smothered the idiot. Seriously though James Marsters deserves an Emmy this year- and every year he has been on really.

  • May 25, 2001, 5:01 a.m. CST

    Can't you see? It's so clear..

    by FanBoy

    Buffy is returning to the land of the living. This much we can infer from the confirmation that SMG is back. It *could* be the Buffybot, but I really doubt it. My prediction for season six is for Team Whedon to give us a major twist : Buffy as the Big Bad. The Joel Grey character, who probably isn't dead, could certainly bring the Buffster back for revenge.. this would lead to some delightful moral conflict among the gang, particularly with Spike. Just imagine if Big Bad Buffy offered Spike the chance to join her..

  • May 25, 2001, 5:26 a.m. CST

    Die, tara, Die

    by tweetj

    I belive that about covers it.

  • May 25, 2001, 5:59 a.m. CST

    buffy the big bad! or willow the big bad!

    by xander316

    Even though we are not shure if a new slayer will rise cause buffy has died before, just humour me and say that there will be. If by some really lame reasion dawn is the new slayer then it would make a great seaion six if buffy was the big bad, either because shes a vamp or the energy wall did something to her and so dawn and spike have to fight buffy even though they dont want to and if you want to put a twist on it you could have willow try to use magic to turn buffy back good but it back fires and willow joins buffy as the new villans of seasion six. it would make one great plot dont you think. :D

  • May 25, 2001, 6:30 a.m. CST

    Spike

    by dougmac

    is a wuss because of the chip in his head, not because he is suddenly noble.

  • May 25, 2001, 6:38 a.m. CST

    Buffy McLeod... Hmmm, that's got a nice ring to it...

    by Herbert

    To the earlier poster who suggested a Highlander connection, I agree. I'd love to see a shot of the tombstone, slowly pull back, pan left to Buffy staring at headstone. Then Duncan puts his hand on her shoulder and says, a la Ritchie Ryan, "You're one of us now". Joss- you, me, Davis and Panzer need to do lunch... my friends call me Hi...

  • May 25, 2001, 6:58 a.m. CST

    Little Miss Muffet Counting Down from 730

    by ZeppoBoy

    Did any of you get this refrence from the season three finale yet? Little Miss Muffet is obviously Dawn, and 730 is 365 x 2 which is the number of days in two years. This means that Joss has been planning Buffy's death SINCE THE MIDDLE OF SEASON 3!!!!!!!!! If he was planning her death for that long, he must have thought of a way to bring her back!!!

  • May 25, 2001, 7:37 a.m. CST

    several things

    by zippy-zip

    I don't have anything against Xander being a watcher, but I think he should know more than comic books. Anya might be ok as a watcher. They will have to have somebody else if Giles goes to England. I feel for people who can't get upn-I didn't see the first three seasons of Buffy 'cause I couldn't get wb. I don't really like it on upn 'cause it comes in fuzzy. Since so many people can't get upn, maybe some club could set up a list of people who would share a copy with one other person(so as not to wear out the good graces of the person making the copy).

  • May 25, 2001, 8:12 a.m. CST

    reign of the Buffys

    by sundown

    lets see- Dawn is the superboy (younger version), Spike is the Eradicator (out to resurrect the original but acting as a stand in), the Buffybot is the Cyborg Supes that eventually destroyed Green Lanterns city (maybe we'll get lucky and she'll blow up LA on Angel before the real Buffy comes back and joins with the others to kick her ass), and Xander builds himself a big ass metal suit with Willows help and finally gets those powers everyone wants him to have and becomes the Steel version of the Buffy stand in. The working mans hero. Oh by the way if this or anything like it happens I will throw my TV out a window.

  • May 25, 2001, 8:17 a.m. CST

    Dangerously Close.....

    by evidence

    This will probably come as sacralidge to Buffy fans, but I have to say this show is DANGEROUSLY close to jumping the shark. I really hope Team Wheadon can turn things around drastically over a UPN next season. I really thought the season ender was lame (maybe because I was really hoping for an all out battle that involved the Angel gang). Please, I've already given up on the X-Files. Don't disappoint on Buffy. What's left? Fucking Roswell???!!!!

  • May 25, 2001, 8:26 a.m. CST

    Ok, I have one very BIG Problem with the ending that's been bugg

    by 1stGodling

    alright, the portal closed when the blood stopped. Buffy jumped in to take Dawn's place and died,her blood stopped,but Dawn's didn't,and they have the same blood.SO the blood din't stop at all. WHY DID the portal CLose!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The blood still flowed in Dawn so what caused the portal to close?!?!?!?! could it be that if Glorificus stepped through the portal it would have closed behind her? meaning that Buffy went in and it closed when she fell apart.

  • May 25, 2001, 8:38 a.m. CST

    I'd like to retract my previous predictions

    by Ophelia 's twin

    I think I was just traumatized by the finale (which is amazing considering how spoiled I was). *** Of course, Buffy's coming back. I wish I had a copy of "Restless." Near the end, Tara says to Buffy something like, "You don't know what you are, what's to come. You've only just begun." Wherever "Dead Buffy" is, she's probably finding out exactly what is--not just a run-of-the-mill slayer, but something much more. I completely agree with Lily Drop, Buffy isn't going to want to come back. I think the only way she'll agree is if the PTBs threaten to transfer Buffy's destiny to Dawn. *** As to how Buffy will be brought back, I have no idea. But Joss is an evil genius; I trust him. *** Other predictions: Dawn may begin exhibiting Slayer-like talents, which Buffy will do everything in her power to discourage. Spike, however, might be willing to train the Platelet in secret. *** Giles will remain Buffy's watcher, even though he won't be around as much. *** Anya and Xander will get married (unfortunately), but it won't be until near the end of the season. (And they won't get custody of Dawn as I predicted earlier.) *** My predictions for Willow and Tara still hold. The season's Big Bad will be something that Willow inadvertantly unleashes and can't control. Cassandra-like Tara will be predicting such a turn of events throughout the year. *** Has anyone watched "Restless" since seeing "The Gift"? Are there any clues that now suddenly make sense? *** Drath: I agree with you. Why didn't somebody just smother little Ben in his crib? Was it just because the monks had qualms about killing an innocent human?

  • May 25, 2001, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Ponderings

    by Sibling

    First off, the Dracula speculation: Buffy *did* drink from him, just before she started kicking his butt; the drink is what broke her thralldom. But I don't think we're gonna see Buffy rising as a vamp or even a part-vamp Blade-wannabe. Buffy has enough problems to deal with without adding "good guy vamp self-torture syndrome." However, one thing Drac did do was start the ball rolling on the Essential Question of Season 5, "Is there more to Buffy than being a killer (even a killer of bad guys)?" Buffy jumped into the portal not to commit suicide, but to answer that question. Also, I don't think Dawn will be a new Slayer, because of A) the "too many Slayers" issue Whedon apparently already regrets, b) you can't inherit from yourself -- if Dawn is Buffy's Rib, or whatever. BTW, did the series ever mention if the monks made Dawn out of Buffy's *body* or Buffy's *spirit*? If the latter, then why isn't she a Slayer already? I do believe Dawn will be crucual in Buffy's rebirth, maybe as a Buffy spirit-compass. Also, since there apparantly won't be an Angel crossover, Dawn is the next most important Love in Buffy's life, now that her mom is gone. Lastly, I wonder, now that Glory is gone and the time for The Ritual has passed, so the Key is no longer a major issue, what *will* Dawn's role be? The required Innocent Bystander Always in Danger, now that Mom is gone and Cordelia is in LA? God, I hope not. Dawn *could* be a decent character, but I'm tired of the "Help, Buffy!" screams.

  • May 25, 2001, 9:35 a.m. CST

    Another possiblity on how Buffy comes back.

    by BrendaEMT

    Possible spoilers here if you haven't seen "The Gift" 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Has anyone considered the fact that it won't be the Scoobs that bring Buffy back from the dead. Things didn't turn out the way Doc had wanted either. We never saw his body at the bottom of that tower. Either the fall didn't kill him, or he never hit the ground, perhaps he used his tongue to catch himself on the way down. If he has the knowledge to resurrect the dead then perhaps he has the knowledge to turn back time to try to alter the outcome of that nights events. His only problem is that either one or all of the Scoobs can remember what happened the first time around so this time their better prepared. They defeat Glory, keep Doc from cutting Dawn, the portal never opens, Buffy never dies and all is right with the world until the next big threat to the world shows up or some other bad guys decides that The Keys energy will benefit him in some way. Just a thought. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Possible "The Gift" spoilers above for those who haven't seen it yet.

  • May 25, 2001, 9:54 a.m. CST

    Wondering...

    by Eirenical

    Just thought it would be cool if Buffy came back, but was no longer a slayer. What if she were Dawn's watcher?

  • May 25, 2001, 10 a.m. CST

    faith or...?

    by Cam The Man

    I've read a quote from Whedon saying "Buffy will be back - until then fans will just have to have faith". Change the first letter of that final word to a capital and it may give some clues as to how the season will open.

  • May 25, 2001, 10:19 a.m. CST

    The BIG Finale

    by Brody77

    OK,will someone PLEASE tell me what this crossover ending thing is? I'm in the UK and a week behind,and being sad I can't wait that long! Pity it ain't Dawn that pops it,cos she's bloody annoying! Another thing,anyone else noticed the severe fluctuation in Buffy,Angel & Spike's ACTUAL powers? One minute the can do matrix style jumps and shit,then the next Buffy or whoever is having to actually CLIMB a wall!! Is this a budget thing? Am I ranting now?!!!!!! Think I'm gonna need a bigger boat!!

  • May 25, 2001, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Crossovers are done, for now

    by simian

    Boreanez made a comment to the Associated Press at the WB wine and dine a couple of weeks ago, that the WB told him there would be no more Buffy/Angel crossovers, and that they would be limiting any referances to Buffy as well. Boreanez then joked that they said he could crossover to Felicity instead...In an LA Times interview Joss said all crossovers for next season were rewritten and that the bad blood between Buffy staff and The WB made crossovers an unlikely prospect for quite some time.

  • May 25, 2001, 10:26 a.m. CST

    Faith, Oz, Riley = NOT.

    by Sabrina

    First thing: Joss has gone on record saying that Eliza Dushku will NOT be reprising her role as Faith (and thank God, I say; never liked the slutty bitch). Ditto for Seth Green (Oz -- more's the pity) and that big lump of Riley leadeness, Marc Blucas. And her mom's not coming back -- she's D-E-D. Anything that happens next season will happen WITHOUT crossovers to "Angel" (or so says Joss) and with the current cast ONLY. But I hope to God Joel Grey comes back. Wilkommen, bienvenue, welcome, indeed. Shudder -- he'd be the best Big Bad yet.

  • May 25, 2001, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Buffy will return as Dawn's Mentor/Watcher

    by LOVEHATE

    Just my theory, but I believe Dawn will be the next Slayer, eventually. I don't think Faith will be back, or if she does, for any extended period of time. Buffy's pretty much done the Slayer thing to death. She's been there, done that all up and down the block. There will be a transition of roles, and Dawn, won't have the easiest of lives either.

  • May 25, 2001, 10:54 a.m. CST

    about why they didn't just kill ben...

    by the_darkness

    If you go back and watch spiral, you'll see that nobody knew the identity of the human host of glory. I'm willing to bet that when the hellgods imprisoned glory inside baby boy ben, her close followers cast that shadow spell on her to make sure that no one would find out the identity of the hellgod. The leader of the knights of byzantium said so himself when he was telling them how to kill glory through ben

  • May 25, 2001, 12:11 p.m. CST

    the_darkness is a smart boy

    by Ophelia 's twin

    Thank you, sir, for pointing out my obvious stupidity.

  • May 25, 2001, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Mindless rambling

    by Sylvia Simon

    Giles' spinoff as a BBC show? Oh my god - I surely hope there will be gentle, kindhearted Brits that will send copies of it my way! On with the ramblings:***1stGodling; I was also wondering about the bloodletting - Dawn was still bleeding like a sieve when she shimmied down the tower. Yet the portal closed. Hmmm.***TrollPrincess; I agree with you - Groo SHOULD have come back (he is definitely too fine to be in an alternate universe). Unfortunately, Cordy would pass her gift of "sight" to Groo if she ever "received" him, and since she wants to keep her powers, she has too keep away from Groo. And I don't know about you, but I would have a definite problem keeping away from a honey like that if he was around day after day. But he sure would have been nice eye candy for us next season....***2gold; now you know you can't have your pudding if you don't eat your meat.

  • May 25, 2001, 12:53 p.m. CST

    Sky TOTALLY RUIN finale in UK

    by VShael

    I couldn't believe it, but less than 40 minutes ago, Sky showed The Weight of the World. When it was over and the credits were rolling, the announcer mentioned a trailer for next weeks finale. What was the trailer? A lot of folks crying and many many shots of buffy's tombstone. Does that suck or what?

  • May 25, 2001, 1:13 p.m. CST

    buffy

    by johnnylong

    How about scooping the brain out of Buffy's lifeless corpse and slam dunking it into the Buffybot thus creating the BuffyBorg.

  • May 25, 2001, 1:25 p.m. CST

    blood letting?

    by ninz39

    So glory needs to bleed the key dry for the portals to open....well think back a few episodes when glory didn`t know what form the key was in and she said it could be anything. So what if the key was in the form of a garden gate or a toilet brush how could glory bleed a hedge trimmer dry to open the portals, very odd....!? Secondly over here in the uk we have only just seen the last but one episodes of buffy and angel. Angel was great never mind fred being next years regular lets have that gorgeous guy instead I was like whoaaaaaa!!!!!! Oh yeahh!!

  • May 25, 2001, 1:37 p.m. CST

    Groo and Joss dancing

    by cooper2000

    I liked Groo too. Ya think that was his real hair? Yes, that was Joss jumping around doing that dance on Angel. I think it is just lame if Dawn becomes the Slayer. Then they have to change the name of the show. We'll see, but I think you guys are wrong.

  • May 25, 2001, 1:59 p.m. CST

    Buffy Finale Blooper!

    by greensnake_bake

    In the finale, just before Giles kills Ben, Giles says that Buffy could not bring herself to kill an innocent - "She's not like us". Ben says - "us?". Then Giles kills him. However, only Dawn knew that Ben had decided to switch sides and help Glory. Giles had no way of knowing what Dawn did. Giles should of said "me" not "us". The writers screwed up.

  • May 25, 2001, 2:08 p.m. CST

    this is as bad as the wait for the Sopranos!

    by supershauna

    Ah yes kobayashi, death is your gift. Maybe Buffy really is already dead because of the Dracula thing. What I want to know is, what is Dawn now? Is there just no more Key in the Universe, or will she be hunted all the time? Has she become a

  • May 25, 2001, 2:38 p.m. CST

    greensnake_bake NOT a blooper

    by VShael

    You just misunderstood the line. Giles didn't have to know Ben turned traitor. As far as Giles was concerned, Ben was an innocent. However, he wasn't a hero. The "us" just refers to regular guys, not "us" as in "we, the evil bastards who turn to the darkside."

  • May 25, 2001, 4:02 p.m. CST

    No, the_darkness, that doesn't work either

    by Drath

    I remember what the knight said, but never did he say that the Hell Gods didn't know the identity of the child. All he said was a conveniently vague blanket statement which applied to him and his fellow Byzantium because, as we learned later, they're human and were subject to the cover spell. If killing Ben was all that was necessary to stop Glory from overthrowing the other hell gods, then he should have been hunted by more than a few nasty forces that would be impervious to the Mr. Short-Term Memory spell just as Spike was. If Glory's minions could find Ben, why not the other Hell Gods? And what the hell was Joel Gray anyway? He mentioned lower demons, referring to the minions I suppose, so was he a demon like the Mayor? Did he help them cover Ben? How? Loose ends dammit! And even then, how does killing the human form stop a god? At best it should have just sent her into another incarnation from which she'll return yet again so killing Ben only bought us time--which Joss is saying isn't the case. Sorry, but this Ben as the Achilles Heel bit was an all too convenient device that I think they came up with late in the game when Ben didn't work out the way they'd wanted him to. Glory called Ben "family" earlier in the season and that it was more complicated than she and Ben are one. But that EXACLTY how they described it in the end! It felt lazy and schizophrenic. I can forgive it because we had a good season with Dawn, Joyce, Tara and Willow, Xander and Anya, Spike and Buffy etc, but the writers can do better with bad guys, I've seen it. They need to make the villains as interesting as the Scoobies, who need to know said villains intimately. The shows best villains are the ones we care about enough that just killing or stopping them isn't enough--and the writers know it. I still feel cheated that they developed any sympathy in Ben/Glory just to junk it with out any pay off save to prolong the finale to the 100th episode. Just killing THIS villain wasn't enough, but that's what they did and it sucked. I know many people are saying "who cares, Ben/Glory died--I didn't like him/her anyway." That's too easy, and the writers are talented enough to know it. And as Greensnake_bake very intelligently pointed out, how did Giles know that Ben had done anything wrong? He killed him to stop Glory, but he didn't have enough information to pass judgement on Ben with that "us" remark. It seems like the writers just gave up on the character. It's one thing to have Giles deliberately murder an innocent to save the world, a disturbingly necessary evil if you will, but it's another thing to whimp out and try and make that innocent guy a half-assed baddie as a way to justify killing him. If I were the writers, I'd try and resolve this inconsistancy by including Ben and Glory briefly next season--maybe in the afterlife with Buffy. They brought back the mayor via video to give some much-appreciated closure to him and Faith in season four, so maybe they'll have the sense to go somewhere with the stuff they didn't finish this year.

  • May 25, 2001, 9:37 p.m. CST

    Drath, some good pts. there

    by LOVEHATE

    Now that you mention it, it does seem like they dropped some ideas down a hole during this season.

  • May 26, 2001, 4:32 a.m. CST

    Open auditions for new slayers

    by Qu'aia

    Why should there be another slayer called just because Buffy has died (again)? She called Kendra when she died the first time, and when Kendra died, Faith was called (although from a PTB point of view, that call was probably a wrong number). Buffy's already done her passing the torch bit and it was only a fluke that she was revived. Surely only Faith's death will call a new slayer? On a final note: Die, Tara, Die? Absolutely.

  • May 26, 2001, 9:01 a.m. CST

    god i love this show

    by mythuk

    1 week behind in the UK, damn this 'waiting' thing! just a thought maybe buffy's death has something to do with all this 'death is your gift' first slayer stuff. she sees it as her being some sort of killing machine (did i interpret that right?) but maybe death is the way she will become even stronger, from death she will be reborn stronger than ever? sorry if someone's said that before, this talkback is too long to read in one go! also I have season 1 and 2 on DVD hahaha!! anyway there's a nice joss commentary of Innocence from season 2 (recorded mid season 5 so he says) and he says just how much he loves the cheesy stuff in the show. It's good to know it's done on purpose!

  • May 26, 2001, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Dawn...new slayer!!??

    by ninz39

    Think kendra..cool think Faith kick ass stuff think Buffy calm vampire kicking machine Hell they`ve even got cool names, then think Dawn ....er I can`t see her ever having the sheer screen presence that the others have vampire ass kicking skills are just not enough you have to look the part as well...she doesn`t have it unless the show is gonna be aimed at 12-16yr old boys. If it happens I foresee viewer lossage (a bit of scoobie speak there). But hell lets face it if SMGs film career does take off she`ll be gone. Both alison and james are making films (American Pie + sequel for alison)(the house on haunted hill (crap!! by the way) for james.Ok he was only in it for five minutes but you can bet someones spotted the great performances hes put in this season. Those three are potential seires leavers in a few years so who does that leave us with?

  • May 26, 2001, 12:09 p.m. CST

    Buffy Sucks! Dark Angel Rules!!!!!!!!!!

    by DLR

    I'm sorry people, but i just cannot take a show that is a spinoff from a horrible movie that came out in 1992 seriously. Now Dark Angel is so thoroughly original and fun. Not to mention Jessica Alba is one fine piece of ass who takes the cake over Sarah Michelle Gellar any day of the week. If only you people knew how great this show was, I can't beleive how median the ratings are for such a great show. Although I am hopefull that DA will be more popular that all those other crappy tv shows like Buffy and Dawson's Creek, etc.. when it moves to Friday nights at 8 P.M. Please watch and support this show people, you will not be disapointed. BTW, congradulations to Jessica Alba and her "Dark Angel" co-star Michael Weatherly for gettin engaged this past week. Even though it breaks my heart, those two look like a loving couple. ONE more thing, Michael, you better keep that fine young ass in check cuz as soon as u 2 are on the outs, I'll make the chase!!!!!!!!!!

  • May 26, 2001, 12:15 p.m. CST

    love how people who never watch a show say it sucks...

    by Lily Drop

    morons.

  • May 26, 2001, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Dark Angel Original?

    by Corran2001

    Although I am a big fan of Dark Angel I must say that Buffy is one of the best shows on TV and if you think Dark Angel is original you should check out Chameleon 3:Dark Angel about a chick who rides about on a motorbike kicking ass. Sound Familiar?

  • May 26, 2001, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Folks, are you all nuts??

    by 2GOLD

    The memories of Dawn as a little kid where just false memories, she never started out as a young kid. I highly doubt that Glory went to high school and college making Ben a med student. The simple answer is Glory entered the body of Ben when Dawn was sent to Buffy, odds are very high that Glory didn't grow up in the body of Ben. And why couldn't they kill Ben? Because they could never remember Ben=Glory or did you all forget that mild detail. I'm very sure that if the Knights or anyone had know Glory was little baby Ben then his little ass would have been dead in a minute or less. As for the "She's not like us" line from Giles, he wasn't talking to Ben...he was talking to Glory. He was informing Ben that Buffy refused to kill an innocent even though their death would save the world (i.e when Giles wanted Dawn dead). Giles wasn't talking to Ben, he was talking to Glory in his mind and killing her without any doubts(I guess, maybe it was an error but the 'me' instead of 'us' wouldn't have had the same effect). But people still aren't answering the main question, what makes Dawn no longer the KEY? Did I miss a line where it says that when the portals close the key is useless? Or is Dawn still the key? Guess I'll have to wait til next year. Now damnit, bring me my PUDDING!!

  • May 26, 2001, 2:06 p.m. CST

    DLR

    by Vulcan Sensei

    I beg to differ -- Giles WAS talking to Ben. "She's not like us," meant Buffy isn't like Ben or Giles, she's a hero, they are just regular old folks, and while Buffy couldn't kill Ben, both Ben and Giles could kill -- they aren't that noble. Then Giles kills Ben. We already know Ben was willing to kill Dawn.

  • Okay, yeah, Dawn was still bleeding... when Buffy corked up the dimensional hole. But... the moment of her blood being able to open the portal was passed. Note that if, "Joel" hadn't made the deadline, there would have been no portal opening. And, PmS, I don't think Dawn will immediately become the Slayer, but my guess is, it is on the way. I don't understand everyone's dislike of Dawn. Imagine years ago, when Joss pitched the idea of BUFFY as a Movie/Series monicker.

  • May 26, 2001, 11:40 p.m. CST

    GREAT article

    by WFCall

    Go to this link and read this article. It has a pretty original line of thinking for Buffy. grab a coffee and let's discuss....http://www.nationalreview.com/weekend/television/television-rosenberger052601.shtml. And yes, it's a coservative POV. Did you expect something else from me?

  • May 27, 2001, 12:02 a.m. CST

    DLR- you are cordially invited to kiss my ass

    by theharm

    Dark Angel is a stupid show- absolutely brainless. First, The show is about some genetically engineered girl who is supposed to be perfect- but they couldn't predict her seizure disorders? They couldn't engineer to exclude that? Ridiculous. Second, the show hasn't gone beyond it's intial storyline-she's still running from Major Moron and trying to hide in a shit hole in Seattle- there has been no character growth- no plot advancement- unless you count her starting to go for the guy in the chair. BTW- third, the guy in the chair is the only real actor on the whole show. Since your only criterion for saying the show is good is that Jessica Alba gets you going you should check out some Pornos they have better acting, plots and special effects than Dark Angel any day- besides you might want to give your hand a workout since your brain isn't doing that much.

  • May 27, 2001, 7:08 a.m. CST

    BANG POW SLAM !!!

    by Wookie Pot Pie

    And ditto!

  • May 27, 2001, 7:47 a.m. CST

    I don't like this guy...

    by Funkaboo

    I wrote an email to Alan Buckman of The NY Post after reading his review of Buffy's season finale. I wanted to know what qualified him to review television shows, how he felt he could review a season finale when he watches the show, through his own admission, once every two years and finally, what the hell does he have against Buffy TVS?! Here's his reply:*************Dear Ms. Perez, You're correct: It would be too costly (not too mention ridiculous) to hire multiple critics to watch and review certain shows. You're not the first e-mailer to make a point about ``context'' and what you see as the need to sit through all 21 episodes that came before the finale this season. I disagree though. ``Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' isn't exactly ``War and Peace'' or ``Moby Dick.'' I don't need to watch a show all season to understand what it's about or to get a sense that the cast and crew have little left to offer. I still say ``Buffy'' is the laziest, most-over-rated TV show I've seen in a long time. Thanks for writing. Adam Buckman **************** Notice he never answered my question as to how you get a job sitting on your ass watching tv shows and then typing up a few paragraphs of what you thought about it.

  • May 27, 2001, 10:18 a.m. CST

    Alan Buckman is an ass...

    by Lily Drop

    I also got a similarly worded (full of thinly veiled contempt, you-are-an-idiot-for-watching-BTVS) reply to my email to Buckman. I wish I had kept it; I deleted it right after I read it. Basically, I wrote that I could care less if he or anyone else liked BTVS, but to call what he did a "review" was shameless. I also mentioned how clever it was that he discounted any mail he may get from fans as coming from rabid fanatics who don't know good TV. I then mentioned that in his so-called "review" he offered only half-formed ranting opinions, with no support (he says the acting is tired and the writing and direction are bad; but he gives no examples). He replied that as a TV critic he knows good writing, and as a fan of BTVS, I was being conned. What an ass. He didn't even address any of my valid points, and further, he insulted me, because after all, I am not an almighty TV Critic God like him. I do a lot of reviews for comics on line (Sequential Tart), and whenever I do a review, I support what I have to say with examples, and am NEVER insulting to fans of a comic, even if I think it is a mighty suck. There are ways of being harsh when reviewing and not making a personal vendetta against the thing you are reviewing. And as for BTVS not being Moby Dick: WELL, DUH. Saying you need to know the background of the show to fully "get" the season finale is NOT saying it's War and Peace. What a complete and utter moron. When his big complaint is the ending only makes sense to fans of the show and the actors seem "tired", he sounds like an idiot for not knowing the context. Hello: NY Post- you can hire me to do reviews, I'll write circles around this pompus hack.

  • May 27, 2001, 10:24 a.m. CST

    Hey Funkaboo, I also got an email from Buckman, and I posted abo

    by Lily Drop

    I don't know where this post might end up, but I think people should see the kind of things he is saying to fans. Anyone else write him and get a reply? Boy, he has pissed me off! Attention Fox: NEVER SEND THIS MORON ANOTHER PREVIEW TAPE OF BTVS!

  • May 27, 2001, 10:57 a.m. CST

    Well, the heck with this NY Post critic

    by impalergeneral

    I've sent Buffy comments to another TV critic who is obviously more intelligent than the guy from the Post. His name is Tim Goodman, and he's with the San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com). I've gotten some nice e-mail replies from him, and you should go visit him instead. By the way, he's not a fan of "Angel". Maybe he thinks it may go into "Forever Knight" mode, expect for Wolfram and Hart's attempts to get Angel to join them and start the next apocalypse. With what happened last week, this could be a real possibility this season.

  • May 27, 2001, 11:14 a.m. CST

    Buckman and Villains

    by Ophelia 's twin

    Funkaboo and Lily Drop: I don't usually resort to name-calling, but what a DICK this Buckman is. Notice that he disparges BTVS by comparing it to nineteenth century novels instead of other TV series. It's like saying "Memento" is a bad movie because its characters aren't as well-developed as those in "Middlemarch." He's comparing apples and oranges, and by doing so, he's revealing more about himself than about BTVS. It's pretty obvious the guy thinks TV is an inferior medium and that it's really beneath his dignity to be reviewing it at all. Considering how much bad TV is out there, a true critic should be embracing a show that's as original and complex as Buffy is. *** Drath: You're right this season did have plot holes--all of them concerning Ben/Glory. I don't think any were gaping enough that viewers couldn't come up with explanations to fill them. However, that doesn't excuse sloppy writing. That Glory could be killed by killing Ben seems much too "easy." It's almost as if the writers wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't think of a better way to get rid of her. I'm hoping for a better villain next season. I think that Doc could have been a good one (and maybe he still will), but it seemed such a cop-out when they made him merely a "Glory worshipper." *** WFCall: I agree with the points made in the article you mentioned (and I'm a liberal). One of the best things about Buffy is the way it addresses issues of good and evil.

  • May 27, 2001, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Joss is The Man Who Can

    by Wicked Willow

    IMHO-he rules supreme! I am so looking forward to next season and cast my vote for Willow as the next Big Bad. I noticed that lots of my fellow posters don't buy the whole"If-Ben-dies-so-does-Glory" deal but from what I've read in various places(particularly Stephen King's IT,also see Kevin Smith's Dogma),when supernatural beings take human form,they are bound by the limitations of that form which is why vampires can be staked,for example. If Glory could've cast Ben aside before the ritual,she would've but he was her "flesh wrapper" so she was stuck with him. Let us all pray for an August season opener like UPN has been saying!!!!

  • May 27, 2001, 3:19 p.m. CST

    The NY Post sucks anyway

    by Dingo

    Not just Buckman, although God knows he's enough of a reason. I've never read an article in the Post that was either researched, insightful, or good. They always piss me off, but Buckman's half-assed ramblings (and quarter-assed replies) have gone too far.

  • May 27, 2001, 4:53 p.m. CST

    why is it October now?

    by theharm

    Does anyone out there with a huge troll size ear to the ground know why the 2 hr priemere has been pushed to October? Did Joss need more time or was the UPN display we read about just premature in promising an August kickoff? Any info- including magic gourd induced ramblings would be appreciated thank you.

  • May 27, 2001, 5:24 p.m. CST

    theHarm- my guess about the delay...

    by Lily Drop

    I am guessing that, even with no crossovers, ANGEL might have something to do with BUFFY. If BUFFY premired a couple of months before ANGEL, it might screw up the continuity between the shows. I think the August date might have just been wishful thinking on UPN's part. Will all of the actors be around? Will Joss be ready? There are a lot possible reasons for the delay, but I am sticking with the ANGEL needs to be on the same time frame as BUFFY as my guess.

  • May 27, 2001, 5:54 p.m. CST

    Spike

    by notaplaya816

    Who was talking to spike through the loud speaker as the Scoobs hid behind that bull dozer? It wasn't Buffy, she was in mid-beatdown on Glory. To qoute Close Encounters, "This means something". I guarantee it has something to do with how they are going to bring her back.

  • May 27, 2001, 6:19 p.m. CST

    Talking to Spike

    by Funkaboo

    It was Willow and she wasn't talking through a speaker, she was talking to him in his head through telepathy. N.

  • May 27, 2001, 8:36 p.m. CST

    Quick Change

    by The Alienist

    Okay, does it seem to anyone that something happened around the third-or-fourth-to-last episode? The rules seemed to have changed. As someone posted earlier...if the key was disguised as something other than human--if it wasn't disguised at all, was just energy...how could it bleed? And all of a sudden the "Dawn is me" stuff in the last episode? I can't remember exactly what was said, but it seemed to me while watching..."Huh?" When was that ever made clear? But it seemed like it was already obtained or common knowledge. Not all of it, but something new was added. And even if the blood was the "key"...Dawn was created from Buffy's DNA, but the key had nothing to do with DNA, it had to be a singular ancient energy that was injected into JUST Dawn after or during her creation (presumuabley the energy IS her blood). Now I'm guessing the little "blood brothers" blood swap Buffy and Dawn did transplanted a bit of the key into Buffy. But all this came too quickly at the very end. I am convinced that Joss changed tactics, the plotline near the end was altered, new circumstances rushed. Perhaps this occured because of the UPN announcement (I don't know when that happened in respect to the filming of the last month of shows). He usually plays by the rules he set up. But something definitely changed. He says he always planned for Buffy's death at the end of the fifth year. But doesn't that seem cop-outish? He's killed her once before. Now, even if it was a quick change, it's his show, he can kill the Slayer if he so chooses, I'll still follow him anywhere. But I just wish he had done it cleaner.

  • May 27, 2001, 11:48 p.m. CST

    DLR, if "Dark Angel" is such hot shit...

    by Lt. Torello

    ...why is Fox moving it to Fridays, their long-established dumping ground? And Jessica "Flipper" Alba may be easy on the peeps, but Eliza Dushku has it all over her in both looks and acting cred.

  • Lily Drop- thanks for the musing- I forgot that Angel starts in October and it would stink if Buffy came back in August and Angel just sort of glossed over her resurrection when his show starts. The Alienist makes a few good points about the possible changing of the finale- I too sort of thought that the power of the Key wasn't clearly stated as being transferable but the DNA and blood points were made in the previous episodes- so there was some semblance of foreshadowing and coherence of plot. I have a few questions about Angel. Wasn't Angel supposed to deal with "the coming Apocalypse after he survived the Darkness" and the Host said on Angel that "that British guy is going to be important in the Apocalypse" refering to Wesley. So what happened? During the Apocalypse they got sidetracked to Pylea-why? I personally think that when the possibility of a split with the WB was mentioned Joss changed the show's finale to have Buffy deal with the Apocalypse on her own and Angel gets sidetracked. Because if the ending was as shown- with Buffy perishing- then Angel would logically have been in on the eventual rescue/resurrection/rebirth mission and that would have created a few logistical problems.they even stated in a few press conferences that scheduled crossovers for next season have been scrapped. I just wish this kind of crap gets resolved by next year so we can have another Apocalypse( note: not a real one God!) becauseI'd like to see the two casts meet-especially Spike and Angel, Cordelia and Anya, Wesley and Giles-again, and Gunn and Xander- that would be- in my arrogant opinion- a real knockout show!!!

  • May 28, 2001, 1:15 a.m. CST

    WB to air Buffy and Angel Reruns!!

    by theharm

    I just read that WB is going to show Buffy at Wed 9pm and Angel at Mon 9pm the rest of the summer. This is a change after they stated they would not air those reruns. Are they trying to win us back after dumping Buffy and relegating Angel to the hell-hole of Monday at 9 following 7th Heaven? The cross and stake website suggests they will try to screw with us fans by switching air times repeatedly without warning throughout the summer- I just hope for their sakes that they have a lot of people who like 7th Heaven-'cause that's the only group they haven't crapped on this year.

  • May 28, 2001, 1:24 a.m. CST

    should'nt both Dawn&Buffy have died to close the portal?

    by bcbuddy2

    I was also wondering why Buffy just did not fall into the portal and end up elsewhere? It's not like she Cut herself and let her blood flow, I've watched the ep a few times and all she has is a bruise on her head no bloody cuts. And if the portal is fatal to humans why was that not at least mentioned as a possiblity? If any human would have survived the trip through the portal it would have been the slayer not a regular human. It would have made more sense with the girls being one in the same to jump together to stop the portal not just one or the other. I think this takes away from the story, "The only way to close the portal is for the blood to stop." So don't you think that means all the blood ? If Buffy and Dawn are the same blood It sould stand to reason that it would take both of them to close the portal ? After all Joyce is dead so that takes care of her, It only leaves the girl. Thoughts on this ?

  • May 28, 2001, 7:21 a.m. CST

    theharm nailed it!!

    by The Alienist

    You are absolutely correct, theharm! I had also heard there was supposed to be a major crossover to celebrate Buffy's one hundredth episode. The Angel "Pylia" plot, if not exactly coming out of the blue, seemed stretched. I think I remember talk of there being no Angel season ender, that it would be a two hour Buffy...or that Angel and Buffy would be reversed the night of the finale. The UPN surprise directely affected the ending of both show's seasons. And not for the better. Sad.

  • May 28, 2001, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Stuff

    by Corran2001

    Orlando Sentinel May 24, 2001 Buffy is dead. At least that's the impression with which viewers of WB's Buffy The Vampire Slayer were left Tuesday night. The WB's fade-to-black season finale had our heroine tossing herself from a tower to save her sister, Dawn, a k a The Key (Don't ask). Then we saw her limp body and tombstone: SHE SAVED THE WORLD A LOT. Savvy fans know it was just the finale on WB -- the show, and star Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy), are moving to UPN for a two-hour premiere in early October. It's a sure thing. Still, series creator Joss Whedon wasn't exactly lifting spirits Wednesday: Question: Is Dead Buffy actually a robot? Whedon: Um, no. Dead Buffy's a Buffy. But a dead one. Question: What the heck was Buffy thinking? Whedon: I can see my house from here? Question: Shouldn't Buffy have been more splattery after her fall? Whedon: She wouldn't splat because she's stronger than your average bear. Anyhow -- ewwww. We wanted a pretty corpse. Question: You have left people grieving, man. How can you live with yourself? Whedon: Good. That's what I live to do. You think Charles Dickens said `Oh, let Little Nell live'? " Question: Will Buffy/Angel crossovers be possible? (Whedon also created WB's Angel.) Whedon: I have a brilliant non-crossover plan. Question: Can Angel make it without love-of-his-vampire-life Buffy? Whedon: Yes, although he will be dealing with the repercussions and emotions about Buffy's death and rebirth. Question: What? Her rebirth? Whedon: On UPN. Question: Aw, man. . . . Say, do you need another writer? Whedon: Uh, no. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pittsburgh Post Gazette

  • May 28, 2001, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Buffy Series 5

    by Brody77

    Hmm...am I alone in thinking 'YAY' to the whole Buffy being dead thing?! Maybe it'll make SMG realise she needs the show and she'll stop doing crap like 'Scooby-Doo' with her bloody boyfriend!!! Also,series 5 is definetely the weakest so far,but then they'll never top good ole Mayor Wilkins!! What a villain!What an actor!! How come us UK folks r the last to hear about a Giles spin-off on the BBC? Don't do it!!! BBC have been mis-scheduling the good shows forever!! Example- X Files!! Switches channels constantly (if it even gets shown!!) AND they show Buffy at 6.45 on a Friday,on BBC 2!!-a minority viewing slot! Trust me,keep Giles safe where he is!! Am I rambling? PS-know how Rudolph Martin did Dracula on stage,in Buffy AND in an HBO movie about Vlad Dracula,is there a sequel planned for the HBO one where he is as THE VAMPIRE? The HBO thing was pretty good I thought! C ya! PPS-that newspaper guy sounds like a right ,how would Spike say... WANKER!!!! Ciao.

  • May 28, 2001, 2:59 p.m. CST

    To theharm

    by KaijuKiller

    Thing is who said Angel's apocolypse that was foretold was Buffy's apocolypse? The original Angel prophesy didn't seem to have anything to do with Glory, but rather some final battle between good and evil. Even Holland told Angel in their little elevator trip there's always an apocolypse to be averted.

  • May 28, 2001, 8:34 p.m. CST

    More On The Possible Scrapped Finale Plotline

    by The Alienist

    Two other things stressed previous to the finale that went unresolved: As I stated on a previous post a visual point was made of Dawn stealing a pair of Anya's earrings. Why? Someone thought it might have been Dawn "acting out". Doubtful. It meant something, something that was never seen through. Perhaps it had something to do with Anya specifically. Maybe it was the beginning of Dawn collecting something from each of the Scoobs for some reason only her innate energy-self knew. This season WAS supposed to be about the GROUP coming together. Second non-resolution: Cordelia's vision headaches. Five or six episodes ago it was becoming clear, it was stated, that the visions were KILLING her. It seemed this also meant something, something that would be dealt with (presumably during the Crossover Finale). But on the Angel season ender, when Hunky Half Demon Man offered to relieve her of them Cordy decided they were something she could LIVE with. Now, these things may be dealt with next season but I can almost guarantee you these points were plot specifics that had to do with an aborted finale storyline.

  • May 28, 2001, 11:03 p.m. CST

    Thanks-the Alienist, Good point-KaijuKiller

    by theharm

    First, thank you theAlienist for saying I nailed it- my little human heart swells with pride- I'm decidedly with you on this one- something does smell fishy on the whole Apocalypse issue- that was a very good point about Cordy's Headache/Vision- what the heck happened there? Rumors flew rampant around 3 months ago that she was leaving the show-and that a female replacement was being sought-(Fred?) Personally,I feel the show just would not be the same without Cordelia- she, like Xander on Buffy, is the heart of that show. To try to replace her right now- if the rumors of her wanting to leave were true-would be insane- they would lose viewers by the busload and the WB is screwing them over anyway with the scheduling- so in my opinion that storyline just got sidetracked deliberately. But I'll concede to KaijuKiller for making a very good point also- that this Glory Apocalypse may not have been the one Angel was foretold to defeat in the Prophecies of Aberjian. The reason I felt that it was this one was that Wesley said it this way in last year's finale"If he(Angel) survives the coming Darkness, and the Apocalyptic battles, and several fiends then he will Shanshu-become human" and that the host said that thing about Wesley being important in the Apocalypse only 8 episodes ago- so it just seemed logical to me that this Apocalypse was the one they were talking about- not one that was a year and a half off- but then again he did say "Apocalyptic battleS"- plural so KaijuKiller deserves a "NAILED IT" notification as well. The heck- the more Apocalypses the better as far as I am concerned=bring em on Joss let's see some Vampires weeping and carnage everywhere!!

  • May 29, 2001, 1:43 a.m. CST

    Has anyone thought?

    by mooooooky

    Has anyone realised that if Buffy dies and comes back that we now must have 3 slayers walking around? As has been seen before if the slayer dies (even for a second) someone else instantly becomes the new slayer? Also I may be going against the grain here but this series of Buffy has been the worst ever. Disjointed plots, bad scripting, character developments you could drive a bus through and half ideas not fully thought through. For example Why would a holy order of knights, who are meant to be great wrriors be moving around the 21st century wearing chainmail, riding horses and using swords? OK the swords can be forgiven but the rest is just poor or no thought given to them. Why wouldn't a warrior order wear the latest armour and use the latest weapons to aid themin thier quest? They deserved to die if there that stupid. That just one example of the lack of thought and planning that has run throughout this series.

  • May 29, 2001, 8 a.m. CST

    Today is the first Tuesday with no Buffy-my condolences

    by theharm

    Today is the first Tuesday in as long as I can remember that no Buffy will be on the world has my condolences and- I would just like to take this oppurtunity to thank everyone involved with the show- the cast, the crew, the writers and of course the man Joss for giving us such a fun ride so far. I would also like to thank the Talkbackers on this forum- this is one of the few places where a guy can come sit back, relax and shoot the breeze in a no holds barred free for all discussion where every possible minutiae is treated with seriousness and justice. If someone doesn't agree they make their viewpoint known intellectually and if somewhat vulgarly-at least in a humorous way. I sincerely wish to thank all of you and hope that many more Buffy and Angel talkbacks are in our collective futures.

  • May 29, 2001, 9:07 a.m. CST

    Buffy Region 1 DVD?

    by Knightynight

    First off that was one kik ass hour of television last tuesday. Second, the wb affiliate in my area just recently (the begining of this year) boosted their signal to the point where I could start watching them. And now I am hooked on buffy. The only problem is I have no way of seeing the old episodes. I have gotten the vcr tapes that are out, but am still missing a ton of the back story. Does anyone know when they are going to be releasing buffy episodes on DVD for region 1? Any info would be greatly appreciated. If you want to send me a direct email if you have any info, just send it to jonmknight@yahoo.com Thanks to anyone that can help. Finally, did wb shut down buffy's official site? I tried going there today, and could not get to it. Does anyone know anything?

  • May 29, 2001, 1:55 p.m. CST

    I'm new to the Buffyverse...

    by Ardee-El

    But it seems to me I didn't see Buffy die at all -- just jump into an interdimensional portal that closed behind her. Who's to say (other than Joss Whedon) that she just isn't on the other side someplace, battling to get back to good old planet Earth?

  • May 29, 2001, 4:13 p.m. CST

    maybe someone has mentioned this...

    by kobayashi

    but as far as plot holes go - whats the deal with Buffy killing the knights? They were human, werent they? Slayers dont kill humans. Giles even says in 'the gift' that Buffy never had. ??? Also, good point about the earrings. I bet Joss did do a quick re-write of the last few episodes due to the UPN deal. Kinda sucks if you ask me. I would've loved to see what was really going to happen. All in all, it was a good season though. Better than season 4, maybe on par with season 3... ***** As far as the return of Buffy - I still say that there is something obvious that we arent seeing. My money is on the 'Buffy was already dead' theory... This gives a good excuse for the 'rebirth' thing Joss keeps talking about and it would be a nice season-long plot device: Buffy trying to become 'human' again. Who knows, maybe she let Spike vamp her offscreen, knowing that she would have to 'die' to save the world.

  • May 29, 2001, 5:25 p.m. CST

    hey ARDEEL-dude!!

    by theharm

    Dude!! Like they showed her body at the bottom of the portal and then they like showed her tombstone-dude!!

  • May 29, 2001, 8:39 p.m. CST

    Knightynight some info for you

    by MGTHEDJ

    Unfortunatly FOX pulled the Region 1 DVD release. Why? Because the FX channel will show the reruns starting this fall. The DVD release is seen as competition. Bad news I know.----later-----m

  • May 29, 2001, 11:30 p.m. CST

    Hey Sleazy_G

    by mooooooky

    In Answer to your argument for no slayer, again this was never said within the series and seems like another way of getting around an inconvenience. Don't you think they should put more thought into the plot lines and stay consistent. If they go on like this it could end up as inconsistent as star trek (maybe not that bad but you get my meaning). The idea that the power to call another slayer is passed on is weak. How about the new slayer is called in another dimension (as she died in a portal) so that

  • May 30, 2001, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Sleazy_G & Hot Pockets

    by superninja

    I also bet that Buffy would die, so my BUFFY Hot Pocket wager cancels out my ANGEL Hot Pocket wager. Any questions?

  • May 30, 2001, 6:18 p.m. CST

    Send in those pictures, people.

    by vroom socko

    Superninja, eat. Now. The same goes for the rest of you. I refuse to be the only one to suffer. Also, just as an FYI, the second set of pictures of me were taken at the same time as the first. My digital camera simply hadn't been set up yet on my PC. When it was, I misplaced the disk they were on until last night. I say again, eat that Hot Pocket, Superninja.

  • May 30, 2001, 7:09 p.m. CST

    Also, about those pictures of me.

    by vroom socko

    This is just in case anyone was wondering (or to get the curious to take a look,) about my attire in my Hot Pocket photo. Yes, those are official DC Direct Spider Jerusalem sunglasses I'm wearing. No, I'm not on any drugs. That I know of.

  • May 30, 2001, 8:25 p.m. CST

    It's (sorta) Official

    by The Alienist

    Okay. I finally got ahold of a friend who sleeps with someone at Fox. There were two Buffy episodes that were filmed and shelved. Nothing specifically about the finale, but I'm sure that's it. The cast was pissed cause they had to work an extra three weeks, that's all he knows for sure. My pal isn't a big Buffy fan so he didn't ask specifics, but I'm having him prostitute himself to get more info.

  • May 30, 2001, 9:23 p.m. CST

    Allright, allright...

    by superninja

    I'll eat it. But I'm not taking a picture. Namely because I have no camera and no scanner. You'll have to trust my warrior's code of honor on this one...

  • May 31, 2001, 12:02 a.m. CST

    For Sleazy_G

    by mooooooky

    I agree that Joss created a problem with the 2 slayers thing, and that the logical conclusion would be create an army of slayers, my friends and I discussed this when it first happened, but (and its a big BUT), Mr Whedon should have thought this one through first. You have to come up with a reason why you can't make an army and you and the others have obviously talked it through and come up with a reasonable solution so my gripe now is, why haven

  • May 31, 2001, 5:22 a.m. CST

    The ending

    by jpsanders

    People here are commenting on the fact that it seems like the ending was changed at the last minute. In the UK, a SCI-FI magazine called "SFX" has a section called the Spoiler Zone. In this section a month or so ago, they printed what they understood the ending of the season(s) to be with a rider saying that the US is screening the episodes so close the the UK the info might be wrong. The information they printed painted an entirely different ending. Angel and co never went through the portal and instead went to Sunnydale to help Buffy deal with Glory. Meanwhile, Buffy was having additional problems by her father wanting custody of Dawn (kinda makes sense since they did hint that Dawn might be taken away from Buffy). I'll look up the exact episode descriptions and post 'em if anyone wants... Phil

  • Shit, if you get it wrong you have to devour a nasty Hot Pocket, but if you win you only get to say you're hot shit? I CAN DO THAT NOW! Actually, I can't because this season mostly didn't end at all how I wanted it to end--although Buffy dying was always a neat idea, wish it was mine.******A lot is going on about the "NEW SLAYER" stuff, and Sleazy_G as usually has thought out a really good explanation for us. Mooooooky is right too that so far, none of this reasoning has been expressed on the show. The mechanics of the Slayer calling are always vague, probably intentionally so. To be honest, I think that Buffy's death and subsequent resurrection at the end of Season 1 has never been very well explored. I know that people in fact "die" and then come back in real life after seconds of being dead, but what are the greater ramifications of a Slayer dying but then coming back like that? It called a new Slayer, fine, but with all that Annointed leading her to her doom stuff, it seemed like it should have meant more than it did for her. It seemed like Buffy stopped being an oridinary slayer, but the writers didn't want to go that route because the show is about Buffy, who is a slayer. It's not about the wonder girl who used to be a slayer but has now ascended into something else. However, now that Buffy is dead again, I'm hoping all of the things about her extraordinary standing in Slayer history, the stuff they've been avoiding like the plague, will come to light--I especially want the Annointed to come back, he was too wierd to just dust all of a sudden. His best line, standing over his slain minions: "I hate that girl!"

  • May 31, 2001, 7:20 a.m. CST

    When Ratings Fail...

    by BoBaBrain

    What's the bets she's ressurected as a super demonic slayer. Hmm? With an invisible alien only she can see...

  • May 31, 2001, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Silicone never dies!!!!!

    by chloe1

  • May 31, 2001, 11:07 a.m. CST

    10 Bad ways to bring Buffy back

    by DomisInnerChild

    1) Buffy Alien Resurrection - In the distant future, scientists make several attempts at cloning Buffy to bring Dracula back to life. The failed experiments have various stages of Buffy merged with Dracula... one looking very like Count Chocula. Eventually, they succeed and Buffy gives birth to a baby Dracula who immediately suckles at her tit (chomp chomp). 2) Buffy Dallas - Buffy walks in on Willow in the shower. She tells her it was all a dream, lesbian wackiness ensues. 3) Buffy A.I. - Buffybot just wants to be loved and a real boy. The wooden boy Pinocchio storyline takes a twist as the Buffybot begins stealing Xander's clothes and hanging out a Xena all girl parties. 4) Buffy the Prequel - Back to L.A., SMG tried to pull off being 14 as do the Scoobies who all pull a C3PO in Star Wars EP1 and seem to have no recollection of living in L.A. or knowing Buffy during these early years before the show started. 5) Buffy Ghost - Buffy appears all dead Yoda-like glowing in the background to tutor Faith and watch over the Scoobies throughout the season. Has guest shot on Angel making pottery. 6) Buffy Watch - A camera is placed inside her coffin to see if she revives. Each week she progressively decomposes. 7) Buffy POV - Buffy-cam is placed on her head in the coffin, camera shows the inside of the coffin for the entire season. 8) Buffy Love at First Bite - Buffy, now dead, does not cause Spike pain. Spike vamps her. Show turns into vampire version of Moonlighting after they get together. 9) Weekend at Buffy's - Angel digs up Buffy and takes her corpse to the Host's world where they can finally have the beach party they've always wanted. Sunglasses fool the locals into thinking she's alive, hilarity all around. And finally, 10) Buffy South Park - Opens with the Scoobies saying, "Hey look, Buffy's okay!" Towards the end of each episode, "You killed Buffy, you bastard!!!!" 8)

  • May 31, 2001, 12:20 p.m. CST

    I'm off the hook on all my Hot Pocket Wagers, correct?

    by DomisInnerChild

    5-0. Yeah, baby. I'm the big bad. Just a note on the army of Slayers idea. I don't think it would be worth the risk simply because untrained Slayers can go bad ala Faith. So even if you could talk each new Slayer into pulling a Flatliners, you're just asking for trouble. I don't think Team Whedon will have much trouble bringing back Buffy. Let's see... Buffy dead twice, Angel dead once (evil dead three times), the Master dead (nearly back), Darla dead, Faith seeming dead (just a coma), Tara brain sucked. Maybe Buffy gave Dawn her magic symbol of love scrunchie or something. It worked to bring Angel back (remember the ring?).

  • May 31, 2001, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Shpedoinkle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by the_darkness

    Anyway, that's my favorite quote from the entire series, hands down! Some of my other favorite quotes:

  • May 31, 2001, 7:11 p.m. CST

    the_darkness...

    by Lily Drop

    Thank you. You have summed up a lot of my feelings about season 5. You hit it on the head when you say that most of the plot holes people are bringing up are just unanswered questions... 'course I still think many people are right about the season taking a different turn then originally intended. I know at least once Glory refered to Ben as her brother, and not in brother-meaning-we-share-a-body way. I was also dissapointed in the way Glory was off'd. Giles killing Ben = cool, but it was just too easy.It was a somewhat unsatisfying end to this year's Big Bad. But all in all, I thought it was a really great season. If you leave out Ben and Glory, that is. But this season wasn't about fight a big evil. It was about Buffy learning what love is, and rising above your lot in life: Dawn was more of a real girl than an artifact, Spike learned redemption without a soul, Anya learned about death and life, Willow let darkness into her life and became more than just a little mouse, and Buffy lept to her death as her gift of love to her sister and friends. I don't know if I agree that helplessness was the theme this year, but honestly, I hadn't thought about it that way. It puts an interesting spin on Buffy's death: she finally took control. But that is a little too creepy-close to the aditude people have when they commit suicide; I'd rather think that Buffy chose to die because she know she had no choice; she gave her life so her sister could live on. Anyway, very interesting points. *********** So when do the new Hot Pocket wagers start? I already have some bets to make. ***********TO HERC: Please keep a topic for BUFFY or ANGEL going at least every couple of weeks... this is one of the best places I have found to disscuss the shows. Look how long this TB has lived, because everyone thinks it will be the last for a while...

  • May 31, 2001, 7:26 p.m. CST

    My Hot Pocket Wagers

    by DomisInnerChild

    My initial wager was, "12 Hot Pockets that Faith does not bust out of jail to fight and then die protecting Buffy or anybody else. 6 Hot Pockets that Joyce will not be back this season. 4 Hot Pockets that an entire episode will not be dedicated to simply kidnapping Dawn and setting up a ritual (I can buy, discovering she's the key, catching Dawn, setting up a ritual, and then Buffy saving her in the same episode and/or Dawn's discovered and caught in the last 10 minutes, but not and entire episode spent just about kidnapping her). 2 Hot Pockets that Oz doesn't just show up in one episode so that he's established to be in Sunnydale and able to fight along side the Scoobies in the finale. Any takers?" Realizing something like the Pet Cemetery episode could happen, I immediately added, "On the Joyce bet: I am excluding flashbacks, ghosts, etc. with Joyce. When I say "back", I mean alive and kicking for good." Then after everybody called me a madman for taking such large risks, I wrote, "Okay, here's the deal. I am so sure about my wagers that I will do the standard 1 Hot Pocket with photo if I'm wrong wager (I'm new at this, I'm guessing that's the rule) on each. BUT, if anybody actually thinks any of that crap is going to happen, step up and I will give you the odds I stated earlied (I.E. I will eat 12 Hot Pockets if Faith busts out of jail just to take a fatal blow for Buffy, but you only have to eat 1 measily Hot Pocket if she doesn't bust out of jail and die). Obviously, you must post that you're taking my wager before the episode airs and if there are multiple takers, my wagers will lock at there original levels (I.E. if two people take the dead Faith bet, I'm only eatting 12 Hot Pockets). I am willing to raise the stakes to Lean Pockets (it will go both ways) if you're feeling really lucky." There were no takers... dammit. I think my fifth one was about one of those horrible rumors about Oz picking up Faith at the jail and driving her to Sunnydale, but I forget where I posted it. The only one a little iffy was the episode dedicated to kidnapping Dawn, but since Glory was Ben for 90% of the episode I figured I was in the clear. All good?

  • May 31, 2001, 7:26 p.m. CST

    Lily_drop

    by the_darkness

    You know, i was thinking about that last week when the season was all wrapped up... Did Joss drop the ball? Ben kept referring to Glory as his sister... what was up with that? So, i went back over the entire season, checking for plot holes and you know what i found out? After we found out that Ben and Glory were in the same body, they didn't stop referring to eachother as brother and sister... If you think about it, it makes sense... even though they were sharing the same body, they weren't in any way the same person... Ben probably didn't know the entire story and plus the human mind can only perceive so much... so he came up with a word for what she was... his sister. Anyway... so what if Glory is dead? So is Buffy. She's comin back aint she? I'm not saying that Glory is coming back or that I think she should. I'm just saying that nothing in the world of Hellmouthidonia is what it seems. Plus, who says it was easy? Giles took a HUMAN life... that's gotta have repurcussions... especially when they find a dead crossdressing human Ben in the rubble and Giles' fingerprints all over his face. I actually don't think it was too easy. to me it was pitch perfect. I couldn't imagine any other way. And come on! Wouldn't we all feel cheated if at the last minute willow just happened to find a magic spell that happens to stop gods? I also think you're very right that Herc should keep a talk back for buffy and angel up constantly... It's so great to come on here and check out... (Except i can't come in here during the season... this place totally cut away some of the tension on this year's story line that i know would have been there and i would have enjoyed had i not gone in here... i guess it's a love/hate relationship...anyway, too many spoilers for me. Even the spoilers that turned out to be fake [Anya's death] kinda screwed with my head) Maybe someone could petition harry or herc... afterall, most of the editors on this site do seem to agree that buffy rules.. Anyway, i'm gone... bye bye

  • June 1, 2001, 5:15 a.m. CST

    the_darkness, you're an imaginative guy, but

    by Drath

    A plot hole is when information vital to your plot is left out, leaving the audience with, as you called them, UNASWERED QUESTIONS(I don't mean to shout, I just can never bold my type on here). How Glory can die because Ben is dead even though she's a God who should be immortal, why the Hell Gods didn't kill Ben as an infant to be rid of Glory right then and there, Why they were calling each other Brother and Sister when they weren't, and why Glory seemed fond of Ben until the last few episodes when suddenly he was just an annoyance(don't tell me it's cause he hurt Dreg, SHE hurt Dreg), THOSE are plot holes! You can imagine answers for them all you want, said answers weren't in the season and they are holes in its plot. Maybe next season they will fill a couple of them in, but with Joss saying Glory is dead it doesn't sound like they will even bother. Hell, last season had holes too. Why did Prof. Walsh want to kill Buffy after she saw her sleeping with Riley? Because of the drugs they were giving him? Because suddenly the girl couldn't be trusted? Why kill her and not just deny her access to the big stuff? Again, a good imagination can answer this stuff, but why wasn't it satisfied by the show? On another note, about the misspelled Xanders, Z and X are right next to each other on the keyboard, and both have the same sound. There's no need to get after anyone for making that mistake. Hell I know I've made it, but I know how his name is really spelled. It's Z-A . . . ah shit. Well you know what I mean.******BTW, LOVED your quotes!

  • June 1, 2001, 8:52 a.m. CST

    Hot pockets

    by Sylvia Simon

    Damn. Guess I'll be a graceful loser & scarf down. I'll take the pics this weekend & ship 'em your way, SleazyG. Is alcohol as a Hot Pocket lubricant allowed?

  • June 1, 2001, 9:32 a.m. CST

    Hot pockets - and something nastier

    by Geekgrrl

    I'm fessing up, 'cause you missed me on your list and I bet Tara would bite the big one (before word came out that she was in next year's cast.) I'll have to scan in the wrapper, 'cause I don't have a digital cam, but I'll get that this weekend. I suggested earlier that the alternative to hotpockets be tofu dogs on whole wheat buns. Yechh. I'm sure there are other nasty foods out there.

  • June 1, 2001, 9:40 a.m. CST

    Joss speaks . . .

    by Ophelia 's twin

    . . . over at the Bronze archives, mostly about "Fray." But he also reveals this intriguing bit of news: "Numfar will be getting a spinoff, sort of like Soul Train but with crimesolving." *g*

  • June 1, 2001, 11 a.m. CST

    Drath

    by the_darkness

    Well, if you want to call them plot holes, then that's your prerogative. The plot holes that you've proposed... they were things that didn't need to be completely spelled out. Killing Ben kills Glory. Why would that kill an immortal god? Well, let's look at that term immortal. That term is thrown around so damn much in the Buffyverse it's gotten silly. Vampires or supposed to be immortal too. Immortal in the buffyverse seems to mean that you're a supernatural being who cannot be killed through conventional methods and/or require a special method of death. Now, onto my clever imagination. Why, you ask, did the other two hellgods not kill baby ben when they sent her to our world? Because Ben was her punishment. To quote General Hubcap-through-his-chest "In the end they stood victorious over the beast... barely. She was cast out. Banished to this lower plain of existence, forced to live and eventually die, trapped within the body of a mortal. A newborn male, created as her prison. That is the beast's only weakness" Now, Drath and anyone else who wants to step up, go watch Spiral and tell me I "imagined" that conversation. Okay, so they don't come out and specifically spell out EXACTLY what that means but as a translation: The hellgods wanted to punish Glory so instead of just killing her, they sent her to earth as punishment for standing against them. They never intended for her to find a way back. Their plan all along was for her to stay inside Ben and eventually die. They could have killed her right off, but they, being Hellgods, though torture a better punishment. And hey everybody.. Guess what?? It worked. She died. Ben didn't just happen to be her Achilles Heel, he was created to be her Achilles Heel. These aren't things I imagined, these are things that were said in the show. You just weren't paying attention to the right parts. Now, as for why Ben started to annoy Glory in the final episodes, Glory said it herself... she was starting to remember things that Ben did and that he was what was holding her back... she realized that this whole time, the reason she "went for the hurt and not for the kill" was because of Ben's humanity. And hey, go rewatch the season... Ben always annoyed her.. she just wasn't violent about it until she realized that it was affecting her. The only one of your questions that we have to use our imaginations on is why were they calling eachother Brother and Sister... and hey, that isn't a plot hole... it's just the way they referred to eachother. If we were left wondering what their relationship with eachother was, then it would be a plothole... but since we know all the information... no plot hole... also, to answer your question about last season, why did Walsh try to kill Buffy after she slept with Riley? No no no... sorry son but she tried to kill Buffy after Buffy started asking Riley questions about 314 aka Adam. Anyway, this has been fun... None of my friends like Buffy and this is the only place i can come and have an intelligent argument about the merits of it. And thanks for liking my quotes... haha... well

  • June 1, 2001, 2:59 p.m. CST

    The Difference Between Buffy and the X-Files

    by twitaman

    (note: I posted this in the forum, but this seem like a better place). ---- You know, I used to be a HUGE X-Files fan. I thought it was the best damn show on tv and one of the best I'd ever seen -- not just in its genre but in any one. But when it went off track the train really derailed. It's a show that should've ended the season after the movie and it should've ended with a bang! Instead, it looks as if it's going to go out with a wimper... It'll be one of those shows that years from now airs in re-runs and you'll know in the first few seconds whether or not it's worth watching by who's in the cast. "Oh this is one of those Doggett ones, I'll pass..." Or, "oh, this is one of those UFO ones..." And yes, even though some of the UFO mythology episodes were cool when they first aired, because of the shows own disrepect for its own mythology, continuity, and storytelling you cannot really watch them without snickering at yourself for falling into what amounted to pretty much nothing. For instance, the episode with the boy, named Praise (with Mimi Rogers) was on FX recently. Though I remember loving it when it first aired and being in to all the portentious aspects of it I had to laugh at myself during the repeat. I thought, "oh brother, here's another f*cking story that went nowhere." And that's the difference between Buffy (another "genre" show) and the X-Files. Buffy so far has not disrepected its own little cosmos and even in the draw-dropping finale you look back on the season and think, "you know, that's really the only way it could've ended." From a recent Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/ent/col/mill/2001/03/12/buffy_mom/index.html)article I end with this: [And "Buffy" never takes advantage of viewers' suspension of disbelief; strange things happen in Buffy's universe, but Whedon and his writers don't screw with the mythology for the sake of convenience. Nothing ever happens here without a darned good explanation, which is more than you can say about "The X-Files." But what's truly extraordinary about "Buffy" is how the show keeps moving forward, how its characters continue to evolve. Now four and a half seasons old (it premiered at midseason in March, 1997), "Buffy" is as whip-smart and unpredictable as ever.] The characters on the X-Files never truly evolved, at least not after the 5th season or so. They just got stuck in some kind of eternal bull-shit loop.

  • June 1, 2001, 5:08 p.m. CST

    Season six

    by CoffeeBeaker

    I finally got to see The Gift tonight and I've since spent the better part of an hour reading all the posts here. Here are my thoughts on the next season. One: Don't bring back Buffy is some twisted, warped, evil way. If she's going to come back, let it be the original normal loveable Buffy. Two: Bring back Faith. We must have more Faith. Three: Dawn The Vampire Slayer is IMHO a really cool idea. Four: Don't brick back Riley ever. Ever. And that's it. Also, was it my imigination or did they manage to pack a clip from every single episode into the teaser of The Gift. If so, nice one. Finally, congratulations to Alyson Hannigan for giving a brilliant, although extremely brief, performance in Angel. Who else could convey the fact that Buffy's dead in three seconds without saying a word?

  • June 1, 2001, 5:18 p.m. CST

    BUFFY vs. X-FILES

    by Lily Drop

    ugh. I used to *love* the X-FILES. I liked it more than BUFFY. I thought it was the coolest, most innovative show on. I liked BUFFY, I thought it was cute and fun, but it was no. 2 on my list of faves. But there came a point, sometime after the movie, that I realized Chris Carter had no respect for the stories, the history, the characters, or the fans. It was like he was throwing around ideas that he thought were and building elements that fit poorly into the series, elements whose only purpose was to accommodate whatever hippy-trip philosophy he was trying to express that particular week. He even expressed that if Ducovney left, no big deal, the show isn't about Mulder. WHAT? To me, the WHOLE SHOW was about Mulder's journey. Hell, Chris Carter is PROUD that he doesn't keep a series bible... that is why NOTHING ever adds up in the X-FILES, and nothing will ever come to a satisfying conclusion. Joss, on the other hand, drops hints about what is to come, his episodes ADD up to something, and he treats his characters with the utmost respect. Hell, Dawn was hinted at LAST YEAR, in the dream sequence with Faith, it is said that Buffy is getting ready for her sister. I still say the stolen earrings mean something, and it will be addressed. I am willing to bet a hot pocket on it! Sure, the show ain't perfect, and the plot holes or questions are there, but the season finale in the end was moving, entertaining, and highly satisfying. And I haven't felt that way about the X-FILES in a long time.

  • June 3, 2001, 12:57 p.m. CST

    the darkness

    by Drath

    All right Mr. Smart Pants, so you think that it's not a plot hole if they don't explain things that clearly mislead the audience? I've watched Spiral and I know the conversation, but I don't think the Hell Gods giving in to their lust for torture is inherent in what was said. I'll go one more and say that if you are correct with your interpretation then the Hell Gods must be the reason for the phrase "stupid as hell." The only reason Glory was stopped was because of the intervention of the Slayer and many others. If the Hell Gods couldn't forsee that Glorificus, being a tremendous pain in the ass while a fellow Hell God, could perhaps find a way to break out of the prison they made for her if she's given a full human life time then maybe we should stop worrying about the Hell Mouth swallowing the world--these Hell Gods are dopes. How does any one get to be a god by beind dumb enough to let an incredible threat live to fight you another day? Sure, she's suffering, but she's NOT DEAD and hence she can RETURN! And besides, if Ben dies then something remsembling a soul should be going somewhere, otherwise why would there be a hell? So Given that, then Glory deserves to be going to hell and she can go in one of two forms 1--a normal soul that suffers or 2--she's going back as the God she was. If it's the former, then she'd be suffering and your argument for why the Hell Gods let her live just doesn't work. Why would you take the chance of her escaping from Ben--which she almost did. If it's the later, then NOTHING was accomplished by killing Ben and she'll be back--which again Joss has just said isn't the case. But darkness, your account of the Brother and Sister thing is just lame. I don't buy it. The writers abandoned a different storyline for unknown reasons--I'm going with too much time too few episodes. As for Glory being annoyed at Ben, I'm not thinking of when suddenly in the last three episodes she started feeling his guilt. She was simply not referring to Ben as an enemy when their storyline began. Then she learns he knows about the key and is actually surprised he won't tell her where it is. Hello, it means he'll cease to exist! She wanted his help and was angry he wouldn't give it, but she should have known he wouldn't help her given the givens. Why didn't Glory know Ben better? The obvious answer is that she hasn't been appearing until recently, but if his line about having to clean up after her his "whole damn life" is to be considered, then why doesn't Glory know Ben's a goodie goodie by now? I'll grant you, he apparently wasn't so good in the end, but I found that to be a rushed and unsatisfying resolution--we never DID see if Ben could go through with killing Dawn and if his guilt was enough to affect Glory the way it did then he shouldn't have been able to see it through. But we never get to that, making Giles's killing him all the more distasteful(not to mention Ben saved his life just two episodes earlier). And the fact that she called Ben "family" was a misleading line. You're too forgiving to let it go. As for Prof Walsh, you're right Buffy had asked Riley about 314 right after the little romp in the sack and hence Riley started looking into the 314 room after being trained not to ask questions. It was still a piss poor way to end Prof. Walsh's story line, but it wasn't a real plot hole. Kudos to you for remembering better, dad.

  • June 4, 2001, 1:53 a.m. CST

    Drath... answers... and I do have them...

    by the_darkness

    Okay and my great response to your rebuttle is... Whatever dude, it's just a fuckin TV show... but no, really... I guess if you're looking at things the way you're looking at them, then the entire show would be a plot hole. Everything that happens or has happened is a plot hole. Why do you accept the fact that a stake through the heart kills a vamp but not that killing Ben kills Glory? How is it that they have never given an explanation as to why any of the ways to kill a vamp, and that's ok, but they specifically come out and say that Ben was created to be Glory's prison and therefore if his mortal coil is severed, she dies too, so kill the man, and you kill the god and that's a plot hole??? If you're going to attack quote unquote plotholes such as these then why leave any stones unturned? You willingly suspend your disbeleif to include the rest of the mythology but not something that the is actually explained? By the way, it's late and i'm tired. anyway, if you want to talk plot holes, the biggest one in the entire season, and the only one that I think is truly fucked up takes place in "Checkpoint". Does anyone beleive for a minute that all the watchers do is wait around for the slayer? That the slayer is the only thing they're useful for? They the only reason they exist is because of the slayer? Buffy's threats are completely meaningless in that episode... but i really don't want to talk about that because as it goes, that was one kick ass scene... except for the bad acting by that hindu lookin watcher... anyway, as for the brother and sister references... whatever, i can't convince you... oh well... go stalk Joss and ask him... i bet he'd tell you the same thing and i do doubt that they were going to go in a different direction and then decided to drop it. It was most likely just a psych out tactic... (Hey Lisa, can you pass me that?... PSYCH PSYCHE PSYCHE!!!!) (okay maybe not that one... ) anyway, The reason Glory didn't know how goody goody Ben was was because they didn't talk. Okay.. that sounds dumb... but... they didn't remember anything they did while they were the other person... the only reason they knew what was going on was because Ben would turn in the hospital or Ben would wake up somewhere strange... and also, Glory had her lil minions goin back and forth between the two of them. And i'm sure the minions weren't gonna tell Glory how goody goody ben was because that would upset her... they didn't seem to keen on pissin off Glorificus. Anyway, that's my explanation, take it or leave it... I think it's pretty clear that we have different opinions on the plot holes and I think that despite my astute arguing skills, there's really no point in continuing to try to ruin your enjoyment (or would it be non-enjoyment in this case) of the season. But i would suggest you to just look past the "plot holes" like the ones we've been discussing. In the end, i don't care what anyone says... this season kicked ass (although, one thing, not so much a regret... today i was bored and i happen to tape most buffy eps so i went back and watched the Harsh Light of day... the one where spike gets the gem of amara... I love that spike is all the smitten kitten over buffy but... damn it was fun seeing him kick her ass... I love his fighting style... especially in Fool for love... when he kicks that chinese slayer's ass... he has NO fighting style... he just stands there and gets hit... how is he still alive??? Spike is god!) Anyway, Drath... And i say that only because it's pretty obvious that this talkback is over, and so i'm pretty much speaking specifically to you.. haha... it's been fun and sorry about calling you son... haha... if you wanna keep up arguing, i'm sure we could find more things to argue about ... like, didn't it always bug you how they changed the look of the werewolves between phases and beauty and the beasts? Plus, you know... i haven't even begun to bitch people out about their angel bashing (Leave Lorne alone!!!)well, somethin like that... anyway, if you want, keep postin in here or email me... talk to ya later. buh bye! (gosh, i made that sound too sentimental.. i need to go beat someone up to make myself feel all manly and such...)

  • June 4, 2001, 9:32 p.m. CST

    Hey guys (Drath & Darkness)

    by Thalya

    Neither of you has remembered this yet, and while the argument is pretty much over, this should be the final nail in the coffin. I remember from the qweller-demon-from-outer-space ep that when Xander found info about the demon, he noted how it was repeatedly called over time, the most current one speculated to be the Tunguska one in like 1908. I think that pretty much indicates that Glory moves from host to host after the previous dies, she having a form of immortality and all. Killing Ben just gets rid of her for maybe a hundred years, or whenever the next astrological event happens, out of the lifespan of any of our beloved characters, so a few generations down the road will next have to deal with her. Glory's essentially out of the picture, but the ramifications and consequences of getting her that way remain to set up the next season. That's all. Hope to see you in another Buffy talkback!