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Curious to see how they are selling PEARL HARBOR in Japan'
Hey folks, Harry here... Over at Dark Horizons, Garth posted a link to the Japanese PEARL HARBOR One Sheet (Click Here To See It) and as I stared at the quite beautiful and tragic poster, I began to ponder what the trailers must look like or feel like in Japan... I noticed the site address for the Japanese DISNEY Site and figured I'd attempt to see if I could find the trailer... Thank god HTML is HTML everywhere!
Now the trailers are not radically different, but... There's just something profoundly ODD about see a trailer for PEARL HARBOR with Japanese caligraphy all over it... and then there's the slight voice overs... This was the film that many said Japan would get in an uproar about, we'll see. Pearl Harbor and World War 2 is something of a sore spot between everyone involved and touched by the events... It'll be interesting to see how Michael Bay has played it.... In the script there was a nod to the Japanese that they felt it was inevitable that the U.S. was going to enter the war and that the preemptive first strike was necessary in order to survive. And there are those that feel it may not be the path to pursue.... At least in the script, we'll see what makes the cut. But... For now...
Click here to check out the teaser and full length Japanese PEARL HARBOR Trailers!
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I just think back to Armageddon and rolling with laughter at it's manipulative and overblown emotional moments... Not to mention the jingoistic nationalism designed to look like a glossy Reagan campaign commericial... Let's just say that if we're all lucky, this will be up the same alley as Titanic: Take that as you will.
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It's okay, Kyle. We'll let it go this time, but you will need to perform an act of penance. I deem that to be sitting down and watching Christopher Colombus - The Discovery tonight. Twice.
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But I really don't care what other countries think about what we do and how it psychologically effects them. That's what you get for trying to take on the US. Realize that we are the ONLY true world power left and surrender your governments to us. Instead of the Roman Empire, we can be the New Yorkan Empire. Hell, we already have the Empire State Buliding. Resistance is futile; your only choices are be conquered or surrender. Oh wait, I forgot, I don't even like this country. Ah well, a little hypocrisy never hurt anyone. Or did it?
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All your countries are belong to us!!!
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I've posted this elsewhere, but I'm going to repeat it once again. I've felt offended by "Saving Private Ryan", where the only "good" people is american. Montgomery is described as stupid, french are only shown as hysterical civilians, germans are all evil and there's no other representation of the mixed army that fighted at the french shores. It was an insult! And what it is worse, it is said in the movie that they released Europe from fascists, and I'm supposed to believe that when I've been born and raised in Spain, which has been a fascist dictatorship for 40 years, with the support of the U.S. Government. Now, any of you americans, tell me I'm lying, that my grandfather wasn't almost executed just for having communists friends, that thousands of spaniards didn't die at the Holocaust, that General Franco was a democrat. Now that those times are almost forgotten, we have a strong democracy, and what does the U.S. want us to? To believe that Cuba - a country which has been friend of Spain EVEN when General Franco and Fidel Castro where ruling their dictatorships at once - is training basque terrorists... why? just because the U.S. Government think that we are stupid, and we'll break our relationships with Cuba, where we have large amounts of money invested. Well, I don't intend to bother you, just to tell you how it feels to see yourself depreciated by people who not only doesn't know or respect your culture, but certainly is not interested in learning about it. Next step? We've heard in Spain that the next James Bond flick will have a Spanish bullfighter as villain. Ha, ha, ha. The most stupid idea I've ever heard. Now, find a spanish actor that agree to do THAT role. And by the way... do you Americans really think your power will last forever? Do you remember Romans, Spanish, French, British, Germans, Japanese and Russians? Nothing last forever, and of course, the U.S. will fall (I think it's China's turn, and obviously Bush Jr. thinks the same).
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Umm...according to Dark Horizons, that's the CHINESE one-sheet, not JAPANESE. Now, I can't tell one from the other so I don't know who's right, but I thought I'd point it out...
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Now that I look at it, I think Harry's right. That URL at the bottom of the poster is a Japanese site, so there you go.
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by the way....Germany has a new pearl harbor site with great pics...and good flash intro....and a new 46 MB version of the trailer.....www.pearlharbor-derfilm.de (Highend Version)
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Can Michael Bay seriously think he can recreate such a phenomenal hit by plotting a love story infront of an historical tragedy?... I don't think so. Titanic was such a colossal winner because James Cameron spent over five years researching and writing, he had real passion behind what he was doing. There is no magic formula to a good film. When Pearl Harbour pulls in the millions this summer it will be because it's been hyped at the new Titanic... Most Americans will love it of course, just check out the movie's tag-line... Hollywood is reshaping history, and to anyone who uses that old argument that movies are not a history lesson, all I can say is that when I see "Historical" included in what genre a movie is, that movie is obligated to give the closest interpretation of the truth as it possibly can. Otherwise, call it "Alternative History".
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Who's not? Someone show me one country that doesn't produce some level of ethnocentric nationlist written or movie propaganda to support their own feelings of superiority and self righteousness. How many press releases, debates, and negotiations are spun with language that attempts to make both sides look like the winner by "their" people?
The difference is that there are significant amount of countries out there that the media is still under the direct control of the government or at least limited to what they can/can't say by the government.
The pro and con here in the US is that we have differing opinions and are freely allowed to express those. Some times those expressions are movies and some times those movies are more for entertainment than for logical or historical fact. If I want historical fact I'll go find a history book, read some opinions on the net, or watch History Channel, I won't go see a multi-million dollar movie that's "based" on fact.
If someone wants to use a movie as further fodder and proof for their already prejudiced anti-american sentiment then fine, just don't come back mad when someone else does it to you. -
How dare Michael bay (the worst director in Hollywood) tackle a subject as sensitive as Pearl Harbour. The arrogance astounds me. Burn Hollywood Burn!
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Japan is really a puppet state of China. It has been for thousands of years. Remember when the US submarine "accidently" surfaced under that Japanese fishing boat? Well that Japanese fishing boat was a trawler (in other words, a spy boat) and it was no accident... The US Navy was conducting experiments using dolphins in that area and the Chinese Illuminati wanted to see what was going on. Thats why they crashed into our spy plane...because paybacks are hell. The destruction of the United States is imminent. You have been warned.
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Did anyone else notice that it looked like the boats were in a convoy on the ocean rather than docked at Pearl Harbor?
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It should have been the of bombing of Hollywood and the Bay residence. Lets see Hollywood rewrite that!
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Has put me in the mood to rent 1941. And I didn't think that would ever be possible... I miss Wild Bill Kelso.
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May 03, 2001 2:00:30 PM CDT
James Cameron, do something before Pearl Harbour steals your glo
by kyle.reese
Now!
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Ive just been watching one of my favorite films of all time on DVD 'A Matter of Life and Death' (Stairway to Heaven to you guys in the USA) and after watching it Ive come to a sudden realisation. Modern films suck!! Don't be waiting for the punchline it aint coming! They fuckin' SUCK!!! Pearl Harbour will of course look spectacular but with 100 million + of SFX it bloody should! But it will be of no artisic merit at all. Jack Cardiff, the director of Photography for 'A Matter of....' has more talent in his shed skin cells than Micheal Bay will ever have in his life! Bruckhiemer wont be picking up a lifetime achievement award from the Acadamy. Unless its the award for making a lifetime of mediocre films!! As a challenge to yourselfs list all the films made in the last ten years that people will still want to see in fifty years time.... Short list aint it??! The tragic thing is of course I'll still see Pearl Harbour 'cos if you dont sift through all the shit You wont ever get to find those very rare nuggets of film making gold!!
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I can imagine Japanese kids standing in the Arizona memorial and saying: "We sure did kick their asses."____________I can imagine American kids going to Hiroshima & Nagasaki and looking around and saying: "We sure kicked their asses."___________Question: who really kicked whose ass in the long run? As I see it, there is a higher probability of something in your house being made in Japan than being made in the US.
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Umm, sorry dude, but you're not quite accurate. The Japanese never built the amphibious forces to even attempt to take Pearl Harbor, nor did they ever seriously contemplate it. They wanted the west Pacific and a portion of the South but the only purpose of this was to provide a shield to shelter behind. The resources were in the Indies and southeast Asia and China. The hope was that they would hurt us badly enough that we'd give in and leave them their new possessions.
For revisionism, I'm more concerned with the stated point of the movie that the Japanese were pushed into it and that FDR let all of this happen. For the former, yes, we shut down their oil and raw materials pipeline in '39 and '40. Why'd we do it, oh yeah, as retaliation for them slaughtering and raping their way through Korea and China. The abuses were so blatant and films and photos got out that we had to do soemthing, unless you think standing idly by while Koreans are forced into army brothels and idiot wannabe samurai (most had no lineage, but they got a shiny sword) hacking the heads off of tied up Chinese was acceptable. So yeah, after this we cut off their raw materials. This makes a sneak attack and the Baatan death march our fault? What's frightening is this, when I lived in Okinawa for a year, the majority of friends in my age bracket (14-18) back in the mid-80's didn't know or believe that these invasions happened. The rape of Nanking isn't in their textbooks. They've managed to convince themselves that they had no choice in the matter and we're going to go along with it. Oh yeah, and those dastardly Brits pushed the Germans into slaughtering the Jews. Poor, persecuted Nazis.
And despite glossy but unscholarly tell-all books, little real documentation exists that the PH attack wasn't a surprise. There were stovepipe organizations that didn't get the info out that the Japanese embassy was burning papers and that a midget sub was rammed and buerocratic sloth that didn't want to believe but no documents that say that FDR saw it coming and said "hey, acceptable risk". It was blindness, not willfullness. It's bad enough that people believe it because popular media tells them all of thime, now they'll have a movie to prove that it's real.
Lastly (phew) why beat on Bay? I liked the Rock, and Armageddon was OK. Why might this not be good? Remember Cameron and Titanic? I hear that movie might have done OK. Before they came out, Spielberg was getting beat on for trivializing the Holocaust and Cameron for exploiting the sinking of the Titanic. Once released, they were hailed as visionaries. I'm not saying that this movie won't suck, but the images actually look pretty good. I grew up on Wheeler and Hickam AFB's and visited the Arizona memorial several times a year, watching the oil slick still trickling from her hull. I've seen the bullet holes that still exist in the sides of buildings on the bases. I watch the trailer, I choke up. More importantly, friends of the family who SERVED ON THOSE SHIPS AND BASES ON DEC. 7 choke up! If it works for them, it works for me.
Like "Longest Day" and "Sands of Iwo Jima" don't have some rah rah to them. And they portray Germans and Japanese soldiers as the enemy, how horrid. And Saving Private Ryan followed an American Ranger unit at an American beach that bypassed the beach after day 1 and went inland and only met Germans and panicked French civilians. Wait, no British at the beach, German held territory, and Fench civilians in the battleground. I suppose if a hot resistance chick had showed up and a wise-cracking SAS dude that the movie would now be palatable. Hell, if you flip through some of the articles on Pearl, Affleck is serving in the BoB so that a main character in the film can show that while America sat on its butt, the Brits (and Russians and Chinese) were fighting tooth and nail for the survival of the free (Russia and China?) world against the axis. Rather than just a text scrawl Bay wants to show that the allies were DYING while we dicked around. Yet he gets castigated for it.
War movies are almost always rah-rah films. If Pearl Harbor holds to that tradition, it will be in damn fine company.
Matt -
I'll have to agree with count_glockula who has pointed out some real history. Why should we compromise history for ticket sales. Hollywood that's why. During World War II Japan did atrocities, equivelent of the Nazis, to the Chinese people. I don't quite remember the name of this Chinese city but it was on the Discovery channel. The Japanese went in, killed all the men and raped every woman they could find. An entire city was murdered. The Japanese people should know exactly what their ancestors did so they know what not to do. History repeats itself if we don't remind ourselves of the mistakes. As for nukem them, what would have happened if they got the bomb first? You know they would have hit Hollywood first. Then what, our kids would grown up not confused about history?
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I wanna be like Mike.____________But I want to be even cooler among wannabe directors and critics so I'll say: Bay Sucks! And to be even cooler and trendy, I'll say "Pearl Harbor will suck!!"__Mind you, I have yet to see the movie.___________Now I feel cooler and I feel the love.
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May 03, 2001 2:43:53 PM CDT
The one line that really should/MUST be in this movie...
by chris knight tfn
"I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant." -- Admiral Yamamoto, after attacking Pearl Harbor. Can't wait to see how they treat the Japanese perspective in this. As a historian I can *kinda* see some concerns they had. But NOTHING of those concerns justified what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor.
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Damn, who rattled your cage? This is not a race thing, its talk like that which got Pearl Harbour bombed. This is a Hollywood thing. In the words of Alex Cox "The Hollywood studios really are run by satanists. They were putting devil-worshipping propaganda in my film!"
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Damn, who rattled your cage? This is not a race thing, its talk like that which got Pearl Harbour bombed. This is a Hollywood thing. In the words of Alex Cox "The Hollywood studios really are run by satanists. They were putting devil-worshipping propaganda in my film!" Hmmmm, Michael Bay
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OK -- here's my definitive statement about WWII history.
1) Sure, it would have been impossible for the Allies to win without the US. It was only after their enterance into the war that things began to turn around in Europe.
2) On the other hand, there's no way about it -- the British were FREAKING AWESOME. I don't think anyone showed more guts during the war than they did (not even the Russians). They stayed in the war when they didn't have a single ally -- beat off the Nazis with a stick at the Battle of Britain -- held their own in North Africa as best they could. Why Hollywood doesn't at least recognize this basic fact is beyond me...
3) And no way Britain and the US could have won the war without the Russians. Who took the highest casualities ? Whose industry was hit the hardest ? (though even Khrushchev admitted afterwards, things might not have gone so bad if Stalin hadn't been such an idiot early on... trust Hitler ? Christ...)
4) Sure, the Japanese wanted the whole of Southeast Asia. The thing you have to understand is --that entire area, before WWII, was ruled in pretty much the same way as the European powers. So many economic concessions had been wrung out of China, it might of well have been annexed. Does this excuse Japanese atrocities in the area ? No way. Will they admit the atrocities happened, even to this day ? Nope.
5) Spanish casualities in the Holocaust ? I've never heard of it, but I won't rule it out. Maybe Hitler killing off some exiles for his buddy Franco ?
6) And yes. 6 to 7 million Jews died in the Holocaust. No argument. No contest. No more "rational" debate with ignorant, pimply-faced little neo-Nazis who can't even spell 'Auschwitz' right. Had enough, kids -- why don't you go and watch "Night and Fog" ? Might do you wonders.
7) One last thing -- is the US going to fall as a superpower ? Sure. Everything ends sooner or later. But what I can tell you is -- the next big kid on the block isn't going to be from Europe... -
The next super-power will be THE VATICAN. Yes, everyone & every nation shall bow down to the Vatican, even the USA.
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I think u annoyed Antifonz (does that mean 'not cool' by the way?) by some of the holes in what u were saying. And just to bring up Jesus o'reilly's point, did anyone else find Fight Club hypocritical? Here is a film which subjects a modern/consumer society to a great deal of criticism and at the same time is part of it. Hollywood is obsessed with style over substance, and David Fincher came from MTV for fuck sake.
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Let there be no propoganda here people. I suggest that you all read the very well researched book titled "Day of Deciet" by Robert B. Stinnett. Here is the summary from inside the book jacket.
"Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum, eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the ONLY way, leading officials felt, to galvonize the reluctant American public into action."
In other words JBJ's "Day of Infammy" was no suprise to him only to the strong majority of Americans who wanted no part of the war with Germany and Japan.
Sorry for the insult but I think most of you are clueless to the truth about most history since 1939 to the present. Pearl Harbor = Gulf of Tonkin etc, etc..
Cheers -
This man makes Tony Scott look restrained.
Ech.
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"As I see it, there is a higher probability of something in your house being made in Japan than being made in the US." I did a quick look around, and I couldn't find anything I owned that was made in Japan. South Korea and Taiwan were the big players in my household. Of course, where consumer goods are made is not really a measure of relative economies or whether one is "better" than the other. As a matter of fact, it usually just shows that one coutry is a lower cost producer than another (which is a big reason why many products that were once made in Japan aren't any longer. Japan got too expensive and production moved to other countries, including the U.S. in some cases). There is no doubt that some Japanese companies do things very well and are very powerful. But to say that they've kicked our asses in that regard is simply not the case.
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If you really think about it, it's better we dropped the bomb THEN, to realize what a weapon like that could really do, then to have waited as the weapons got more and more powerful and advanced, Hydrogen Bombs now are literally ONE THOUSAND time more powerful then the one dropped on Hiroshima. The movie should end with us dropping the bomb, but I know it won't. I'm still looking forward to this movie the most.
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Of course Japan commited horrible atrocities during the war, and of course they are not teaching this to their children, but how many of you learned about the concentration camps that we Americans created and put all people of Japanese desent into, even if they had been American for generations? Or even the truth about how we commited genocide against the Native Americans. If these things are mentioned at all in American text books they are glossed over as nothing. This is because every nation has shameful things in their pasts, and unfourtunately most of them are more interested in hiding these facts from their children, than helping them learn from the pasts mistakes. FDR knew about the attack before it happened. The U.S. government was desparately searching for something to fire up the timid American public, and get their support in sending our young people off to die on the other side of the world. If it wasn't for the attack on Pearl Harbour we would not have entered the war as early as we did, and who knows if it would have been early enough to win in either campaign. I just don't understand why everyone can only see it as the evil Japanese, or the poor Japanese defending themselves. It isn't that simple. And revisionism isn't bad if it brings out the truth.
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I'm a military member living in Japan where I work closely with the Japanese Maritime Self-Defence force. I've also lived in Hawaii and used to see the Arizona memorial every day on my way to work. I also study Japanese history and society.
I'm not an expert on the subject, nor can I speak for every Japanese citizen, but I think most young people here view Pearl Harbor the same as the young people in America: they couldn't care less. Feeling guilt or outrage over an incedent that occured three generations ago seems a little pointless to me. I'm sure none of the people posting on these boards fought in WW2, so any kind of misdirected hostility towards the Japanese as a whole seems a little absurd to me.
I know the theaters here are not hiding the posters at all. There's a mammoth tryptic out on display in the local Mycal theater near my home.
While I feel genuine sympathy for those who lost loved ones on both sides of the table, it's a high probability that the guilty parties are either dead, or so feeble that they are beneath contempt.
Furthermore, while I do love historical dramas, I must say that it has begun to bother me that many directors use historical content and artistic licence as a soapbox for spewing propogana and half truths in the name of "cinema". I don't believe in censorship at all, but it saddens me that people use "entertainment" as history.
Like many of the people posting on thse boards, it seems that everyone knows a little history from a certain point of view, and instead of taking it for what it is, they use it as a tool to give off some heavy-handed self-righteous monologue about the "good-guys" and the "Bad-guys".
I am of the mind that history should not be viewed in such simplistic black and white terms. History and truth are far more complicated than a three hour slow-mow laden, computer generated, testosterone flick can muster. The closest thing I've ever seen to a compromise was "The Thin Red Line." I personally felt that "Saving Private Ryan" took the cheap road by moralizing and preaching.
The Rape of Nanking most certainly occured, as did the dropping of the Atomic bomb. I've been to Iwo Jima and I've seen the blasted tank treads and (I kid you not) a jeep actually embedded into the side of a mountain. These things are inarguable as the material evidence supports it.
What isn't easy to explain or judge was the actual tactics and perceptions held by both the Japanese and the Americans during the war. While "Day of Deceit" was an interesting read, and it did provide some interesting evidence, it did not 'prove' it's argument. Of course, if FDR did provoke the Japanese into bombing Pearl Harbor, it would be impossible to prove, so the information is that much more interesting.
The War crimes trials were particularly interesting in Japan as it became clear that the army was often acting autonomously and without the permission of the government. Also, documentation clearly shows that the Japanese wanted to avoid confrontation with a major power. Popular opinion was abysmally low and even propoganda supported a sympathetic approach to the war.
Regardless, I think Pearl Harbor the movie will do very well in Japan. Your average Japanece citizen knows as much of the actual facts as your average US citizen. Polls show that most Japanese feel true regret and remorse over the entire war. Most people will go see it for the same reason your average US citizen is going to see it: spectacle, not facts.
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Gee...ya think?
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May 03, 2001 6:22:45 PM CDT
To Where-Gone-Jin, Looking-For Love (regarding his first comment
by the joker
"if u hadnt used a nuke on millions of innocents u wouldnt have won, if u were already winning why use it? hmmm?" It's because by the time we were done island-hopping, there were only two options that would have led to Japan's complete defeat: 1.) the atomic bomb, or 2.) an invasion of Japan. An invasion of Japan would have cost thousands and thousands of AMERICAN lives. And to you whiny, sentimental crybabies - when you are in a war, you try to lose as few of your own guys as you can. It was better that Japanese die than Americans. Don't yell at me for saying that, because they felt the same way towards us, positions reversed. And to any who hysterically cry "but the Atomic Bomb killed innocents!!!" Well, ask the Chinese government how many civilians were slaughtered by the Japanese. Now, as far as "who kicked who's ass", and how Japanese products supposedly dominate the home: take a look at Japan's economy. The yen is worth less than piss, Japanese workers (when they aren't committing suicide) are working 70 hours a week, and the country of Japan has to import all of their food because they have no farmland. We are better off. The reason that there are so many Japanese products in American homes, is that the Japanese people don't buy imports if they don't have to. They support their own economy because that is how their countrymen have JOBS. Americans are too stupid to boycott products. Japan would boycott American products if we fucking looked at 'em funny. And so we come to "cifra2". I'm tempted not to comment, because that would cause people to actually remember his comments - it's better to ignore, ya know? I know a few things about Spanish history and culture: I know they had the greatest Armada in history, and they blew that by attacking Britain during a storm. And I know that Mexico kicked your ass. But personally I don't care how other countries were portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan", "James Bond 20", or any other movie you have watched. They (at least SPR was) were American-made movies. Do you know why I also don't care? It's because I don't care about your personal feelings. I -as a citizen of the United States-, just as a Japanese citizen would, just as I'm sure a Spanish citizen would... (and I have a friend born in Madrid who loves American stuff, so maybe you're part of a Spanish minority)....all we care about is your money. You are paying to see these movies. You are keeping my country's economy afloat. Cry about how wrong Spain's image is portrayed in film all you want, "cifra2", but my country is laughing all the way to the bank...thank you.
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...on a very well written and articulated Talk Back
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My two cents, of course, but also Bay and Bruckheimer. I think their movies make money because they're loaded with lots of quick, random camera moves along with plenty of explosions, and actors that are little more than filler for the real stars which are the FX. They know that most of us are basically idiots at heart that will flock to anything shiny and fast. I'm (not so) proud to count myself amongst them, but I was still able to distiguish that Armageddon was nothing more than a two-hour music video that made me headachy and tired at the end. And I can't believe how ridiculous Top Gun looks to me now. When this was out, it was the greatest thing since Star Wars to my feeble and hormone-ridden twelve-year old brain. But I'm older now, and I've become calloused and hardened by life. I realize now that I will never have "the need...the need...for speed", and that I'll never look like Tom Cruise, and that Kelly McGillis will never melt with me in a torrid, sweaty embrace to the tune of cheesy '80s love songs. And the sooner the more of us realize that, the sooner pimps like Bay and Bruckheimer will go back to what they do best...irritating people on the street.
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I had to throw in a quote from Phil Hartman: "When I was a child, I thought as a child and spoke as a child. But when I became a man, I had that child dragged outside and shot."
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I had to throw in a quote from Phil Hartman: "When I was a child, I thought as a child and spoke as a child. But when I became a man, I had that child dragged outside and shot."
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....and ungrateful Europeans in general. Their crimes are too many to mention here, but it is worth rebutting the eternal whine about Saving Private Ryan. The points made by the fellow above deserve some elaboration.
Why were there no non-US Allied soldiers in this movie? Why no Montgomery, except to insult him? Pay attention, compadre de Espa -
....does not work! Hai! I am shamed!
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okay, if we hadn't dropped the bomb, this wouldn't be america, since we did, tons of innocents, yes innocents died, not all japanese citizens were kamakaze pilots, and not all americans were 'patriotic' *jap* killing hotheads. generalizations don't always work. american films will have american viewpoints (until i find one written and directed by someone who i would admire for that reason) and you have to expect as much, but bruckheimer is known for the whole good guys are all and only americans thing like in armageddon (except for the all-so-useful peter stormare who just happened to be crazy and russian (what a concept) and you really just can't trust a bruckheimer film. kinda like the whole roland emmerich theory of mine : roland emmerich sucks when he works with dean devlin, when someone else writes, it turns out half-decent (the patriot {side note- patriot was mostly cool because of chris cooper and heath ledger and tch
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Yes I am American, but I think our view on Pearl Harbor is a bit odd. "Boo-hoo we were attacked by the sneaky Japanese". Shut up. Talk to an English guy in London where the Gemans blitzed England for months on end. Or how about a Chinese woman raped by five seperate Japanese soiders. I don't think Nihon will get in too big a fuss about Pearl Harbor, they're reasonable people.
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Hola Hola hola.
First off you gotta respect arm chair generals who think the history channel is the end all to WW2 information. if your in that group stop reading this now, I may hurt your feelings.
With that said you guys are giving way to much thought to pearl harbor. like Ricky martin it's ultimately quite harmless. I really doubt anyone is going to be set into an uproar over a glossed over pg-13 computer generated bonanza. but if you want to go on thinking that feel free, but do it knowing your a complete git.
As for this world interpretation of WW2 take a deep breath and think about that word WAR. not squabble, not tiff, not even conflict. WAR is the most hellish thing visited upon this planet. every side involved in those campaigns committed atrocities, nobody got out of world war two clean. Japan slaughtered thousands of people. Not just Americans but British, Koreans, Russians, and Chinese. As for the Americans we killed a more than few of each group.
The point to this is nobody has the right as a nation to stand up and ask for pity, or an apology. Japan attacked us in Hawaii because they wanted to delay the united states from entering the war. we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to save American lives. (a ground offensive onto mainland Japan was expected to be so costly in American lives it was never considered as an option. And the alternative to the A-bomb was massive high altitude firebombing of japanese cities.) We all know to some degree what the Germans did. And to be blunt the British rules on bombing civilian targets in Berlin were somewhat "lapse". everybody played dirty, but that is in essence what war is, doing whatever it takes to win, to survive. As nine out of ten Kurdish refugees will tell you.
In regards to some of the talk backers. a huge right on to goatman_1. To Ryalto fight club is the shit and Tyler Durden is Jesus Christ reborn. count_glockula (a fine line of firearms I might add) continues to be amusing as hell. and I would retort to cifra2's Mongoloid statement, but instead I'm going to petition my senators and congressmen to cut off all economic aid to his country (have fun in the bread line Fuck-o) oh and antifonz needs to chill (just a suggestion man) I fully appreciate his sentiment but your just playing into the fuckers game.
In closing it's just a movie, one I will see opening day if only to see just how inaccurate it is. (did anybody else catch enemy at the gates what a clusterfuck that was.) but feel free to fire back and forth this has been one shitkicker of a talkback.
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Okay, some of you people are dumb as boxes of hair. Someone from Europe was complaining about their Civil War between Franco and the Loyalists and how Americans dabbled in this. How can you be mad at us for supporting the government in power while the Germans supported Franco? Does your narrowly not executed grandfather remember Guernica? And someone else asked for a list of movies from the past ten years that I'd still want to see fifty years from now...Saving Private Ryan, Braveheart, Usual Suspects, Goodfellas, American Beauty, Shakespeare in Love, I'm not a Titanic fan, but I'm sure there's people. Requim for a Dream, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Amor es Perros, Silence of the Lambs, Resevoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Fight Club, Matrix, Good Will Hunting, Toy Story, Forrest Gump, Apollo 13, Shawshank Redemption...the list goes on. There are great movies from every decade, that's a fact. And years from now, I'm sure some of these will be classics while others are not, but don't be a "Vintage Film Junkie" and believe that the only good art came from the past. We'll only be able to judge these movies as classics years from now, as you did with "A Matter...".
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"I do not want you to die for your country. I want you to make the other poor bastard die for his!" - Paton
So, To make a point..
Admit it. If we wouldn't have joined the war. The entire world would be speaking German.. Thank you, and Good night.
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..."All your Michael Bay's are belong to us."
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...to the pussies living in other countries posting on an AMERICAN SITE IN AMERICA lambasting the U.S. and to the leftie cocksuckers that have no balls who would shit their pants if they faced a combat situation that denegrate the U.S. and live in this country, getting an AMERICAN PAYCHECK WORKING AT AN AMERICAN JOB, ATTENDING AN AMERICAN SCHOOL, LIVING IN A HOME BUILT ON AMERICAN SOIL, why don't you shove an AMERICAN MADE bayonet up your ass while you TELL IT TO THE MARINES!
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I was going to make that 'you're only in it for your country' statement about the war but heavy voodoo beat me to it. As for the brits bombing of Germany, there was nothing at all lax about their rules regarding civilian targets. Arthur Harris purposly targeted civilians and the Brits ended up killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of German civvies. Hence the previous staement about warfare.
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..leaving the mouth-foaming knee-jerk extremist right-wing bullshit to Rush Limbaugh. You just took everything Goatman_1 said and tried to pretend it supported your microcephalic views. You're obviously an imbecile, and are thereby sentenced to listening to NPR instead of EIB, you fuck. http://www.e-sheep.com/rusheats/
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he knows not what he says.
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All that resentment? I know you're mad that you feel marginalized or irrelevant(you are), but sour grapes will get you nowhere. Did we bitch when you sent us the Gypsy Kings or Antonio Banderas? Maybe he can be your next Bond villain. You're giving ignorant and insecure Spaniards a bad name.
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Let's be honest for one moment. This whole issue has nothing to do with who kicked whose ass how and when. I'm getting sick and tired lately with all these discussions about 'USA is better', 'USA has a dumb president', etc... This used to be a discussion forum about movies, not politics... It is without any doubt that movies (both American and European) have not always been 100% historical accurate, but let us not forget: they remain just movies. I'm from Belgium, a country which had without any doubt a great importance in both World wars. Some of my ancestors fought and died in the Fields of Flanders in WWI, and a lot of friends and relatives where sent to concentration camps in WWII. I can only imagine how it must have been in that time, and I am very happy that I will never have to live trough events like those my ancestors had to endure (although I can only hope so...). Now we are more then 50 years later, and I have many friends from both Germany and other countries. I do and just can not hate them for what their fathers/grandfathers have done in the past. My friends were not yet born. Get it? So please stop these senseless discussions about who is to blame for what. Offcourse I can not really judge your (the American) feelings, since Vi
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I also lived in Japan on a military base. My parents were in the military and I was about 12. So I agree mostly with what you said. However, I do still think that Pearl Harbor is a big subject to many Japanese. Maybe not the younger generation but certainly the older ones. We were stationed at Iwakuni which is very close to Hiroshima. I went to the memorial there a few times and remember getting at least a couple of dirty looks. And really, who could blame them? It seems a bit hipocritical for americans to be going through a memorial for something they were responsible for. Similar things happened when we would leave the base and go out into the town of Iwakuni, but it was very rare. Most Japanese are very eager to communicate with americans and are very friendly and they want to make relations as best as possible. Every year the base would open it's gates for all of the Japanese to come in, and we would hold a festival of sorts with air shows and a lot of other things. It was called 'Friendship Day' Kind of cheesy I know, but thousands of people would come each year and have a good time.
To the Joker: Actually I think Yen is worth more than the US dollar(at least it was when I lived there which was 94-96.) It may have changed though.
Also there is quite a bit of farm land in Japan. They definatly make the best use of the little space they have. Almost everywhere I went I saw farms. Many of them were rice farms I'm sure though. They also were very lucrative in sea food.
And I really can't see them boycotting any U.S. products anytime soon. It is VERY Americanized there. I didn't even have learn Japanese because almost everyone spoke at least a little american. American culture has permiated almost every form of entertainment there, the music, television shows, clothing, everything. -
Why did I even bother going to take a history class when I can learn everything by reading this extensive talk back. But then again every body is arguing with each other giving out their piece of mind. Well personally I don't care about what kinda all this mumbo jumbo that this movie has caused. I just know that I like all of Michael Bay's films and I'm gonna love this one. Its gonna be an epic Oscar worthy contender. But hey its a hollywood commercial movie meant to be fun and enjoyable. If I makes Americans look like heroes...cool!! Americans are heroes anyways, just look at all those movies that they've made (I'm a Canadian born Chinese by the way). Germans were the bad guys in Saving Private Ryan...so what? They were the bad guys anyways. And so the Japanese are the bad guys in this movie....well its true since they bombed Pearl Harbor. So what are we all arguing about? This is gonna be the biggest things next to Titanic. Its got the same kinda magic formula to it, great story, great characters, great director. Its all good! I don't care if Hollywood constantly makes asians be the bad guys in movies...whatever works to make the story flow. So sad to see how so many people can't enjoy movies cuz they can't step away from reality and just enjoy the ride. If setting fictional stories behind historical backdrops is the hollywood trend these days....hell I'm down with that. It makes the story even more interesting!! Anyways, I don't give a rats ass about all this nonsense..I just know I'm gonna be there opening night, pick me a good seat and enjoy the ride. Probably watch it 3 times! PEACE!!!
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It's a vast land occupied by millions and millions of white immigrant decendants (including myself). We're not Americans, your Europians who invaded America, killed off millions of Natives (who had all right to fight back). The reason we're a superpower is not because we're better it's because our government are ruthles and self-manipulative... And ever wonder why US schools refuse to teach history involving Native Americans or African slavery?
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Fuck war. Fuck sending people out to another country to kill other people we have no real personal problem with. You think parents from other countries want THEIR kids killing ours? Give me a break. You wanna know what war is? It's members of two (or more) governments sending thousands of other peoples' kids out to kill each other. I say give the assholes that run the show all the weapons, stick them all in the same forest, and let *them* duke it out. Fuck 'em. And fuck all the people that refuse to believe somebody else may have a valid viewpoint that is contrary to theirs, and chalk it all up to "our country rules. Yours SUCKS." If that's all that our soldiers died for, then let me tell you... you're embarrassing the honor and memory of these people. I say the only good thing to ever come from any war is the notion that MAYBE the leaders of the world might just realize what a stupid, horrific thing it really is, and hopefully do their best to let it not happen again. Of course, that would make way too much sense, and God knows that's not what a government does. That's my two cents. Lightstormer out.
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Fat-assed, Grimace-lookin', KFC muching, fascist bastard. NOW Lightstormer out.
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Personally, I think the Japanese got off easy relatively to what the Germans suffered. [not that it matters] Only that I think people should consider the alternative to what might have happened if the atomics weren't dropped. A full maritime blockade of Japan. A full on Amphibious assault on the main island of Japan that would make Normandy Invasion look like a stroll on the beach. With the entire US forces being re-routed from Europe to make the assault. [the euro war was already over by then] Continuos firebombing on industrial centers. The fanatical spirit of the "kamikaze" on japanese people would force the US troops to needlessly fire on the civilians. I saw a documentary on the "alternative" and it was projected that US casualty would have been at around 1-2 million while japanese casaulties [military and civilian] would go upward of 6-10 million. So a couple of hundred of thousands of people died in hiroshima and nagasaki.... they got away relatively unscathed [again... comapred to say... Germany].
As for the movie... why can't people watch it for something that it's meant to be? it's a movie, and a historical fiction at it too... it's not trying to be a documentary... nor is it trying to rewrite history. Personally I think this nationalistic boohaha in the message board is rather silly. -
This kind of debate can go on forever. Quite simply, Japan fucked with the wrong guys, and now u make crappy oversimplified films about it. This is the way the world shouldn't be, it is so get used to it. LIVE AND LET LIVE!
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"If we wouldn't have joined the war. The entire world would be speaking German.." Quite wrong there my friend. By the time US joined the war in Europe it was already decided. The cream of the crop of Wehrmacht died on plains of Russia and Ukraine in millions. What you should've said is: if we wouldn't have joined the war, the entire world (maybe a bit of hyperbole sneaking in there) would be speaking russian. That is a great accomplishment as well, make no mistake about it.
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Kyle Reese, what school did you go to? My experience was that we were indoctrinated, uh, taught so much about slavery and Native Americans that we consistently failed to examine any US History after 1945. I'm jealous.
Molehunter, England let Germany invade Poland in the same manner that I let you post on TalkBack -- which is to say, I'm opposed to you doing it, but I can't really affect it.
As for the whole Russia versus Germany thing, it's a tired argument. Yes, the Russians bore the brunt of that war, and they deserve the credit for slaughtering Nazis in bulk (although the caveat should be made that the Soviet regime was every bit as murderously bad as the Nazis, which rather taints the glory). But from an industrial and logistical standpoint, they were utterly dependent upon us and our Lend-Lease program (even though, unlike the Brits, the Russians failed to adhere to the "lease" part). Unable to produce weapons AND logistical materiel, we supplied the latter so the Russian factories could concentrate upon the former. If you know the slightest bit about warfare (and as a former US Army officer, I do), you know that logistics are as important as (if not more important than) tactics and strategy.
Could the Russians have won without us? I doubt it. The battles of summer 1943 and up to Bagration in 1944 show that the Wehrmacht was not finished after Stalingrad. The respective kill ratios clearly show the superior soldiering on the German side. The Russians won because they won the battle of materiel -- by the generous graces of American industry. Maybe the Russians could have achieved a stalemate on their own, having forever lost their Western marches. But march from the Volga to Berlin in 2 and 1/2 years? No way. -
Interesting point about the russians. but i don't give too much credit in their direction. they got involved the the war way too late, to do much. but they did hold stalingrad. (at some points germans' outnumbered the russians well over a ten to one ratio.) and soon after retaking their city they crushed the nazi's eastern front. so props for that. as for the comment about everyone speaking russian, i have doubts. there was no love lost between the USA and the USSR, we had patton and macarthur, does anyone really think either of them would have hesitated to start dropping A-bombs on moscow. however even without the bomb i think being engauged on two flanks (european and asian) would have been to much even for the soviets. But this is a whole seperate talkback.
p/s i forget your name so i apologize but a huge oooh rah for the guy who posted the patton quote. -
Philopoemen said:
"2) On the other hand, there's no way about it -- the British were FREAKING AWESOME. . . . They stayed in the war when they didn't have a single ally -- beat off the Nazis with a stick at the Battle of Britain -- held their own in North Africa as best they could."
Hello??? They had one very important ally all through the war! Canada. There were Canadians fighting in North Africa, Canadians flying in the Battle of Britain, and Canada played a very large and very important role in the Battle of the Atlantic! All this before the States entered the war.
On D-Day there were five landing beaches: two British, two American, and one Canadian (Juno Beach). The Canadians were the only ones to acheive all their objectives on D-Day.
At the end of the Second World War, Canada had the world's third largest navy, third largest airforce, and fourth largest army.
All this from a nation with just over one-tenth the U.S.'s population. -
Just want to say that the comments of kabouter plop are on tha spot.
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Big Budget films apparently. So we're supposed to feel bad for the Germans who basically created an assembly line of death and took murder to unprecedented disgusting heights. And if they still feel so sorry about it why do CURRENTLY most young people in Germany still revere Hitler and think that he was a great leader who was wrongly attacked? Are we supposed to feel more bad for the victims of Hiroshima or all the soldiers who were brutally killed in the Bataan death march or who would have died had we not dropped the bomb. Are we supposed to feel bad about being white immigrants (of which I'm not I'm Sicilian and my family came here in the 1900's so no blood on my hands) who killed the Native Americans the way the Spanish slaughtered the Incas and Aztecs and the English slaughtered Indians and Chinese. The way every race has killed people and moved into their land through out the world whenever possible. The world sucks and it always has, so if you rewrite history to make all evil come from America you are simply and ignorant dolt. Every type of person in this world has contributed to the stinking mass of evil it is. So fess up and shut up. The Chinese human rights record is among the worst in the world so I wouldn't go hoping for them to replace America as world. Stalin killed as many people as Hitler and they were his own. The English are responsible for throwing their crap all over the world and some of the most despicable acts by man in Africa and Asia. So Pearl Harbor happend. We were sneak attacked. You want to erase that history? Too bad ya can't. A lot of Americans died ont he shores of Omaha and Sword and Juno more than your lofty 'combined army' cause we did most of the fighting and it wasn't even on our land so you can show a little gratitude and less venom it couldn't hurt. But you won't cause you never needed us right? Maybe y'all can fund a foreign evil Americans film where the good hearted Germans and French are out to create a socially minded state with the help of the Chinese and Russians and only the evil fascist Americans with their pretentious ideas of freedom stand in there way. I know Hollywood would buy it.
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Jesus, nothing like an illiterate, uncultured bumpkin from Texas molseting and marginalizing a great and long lasting culture.
BTW, Japan's hand waa forced by the fucking meddling ways of the paternalistic, overbearing US. The US imposed an unreasonable blockade on Japan after the Land of the Rising Sun enterted China and beat the hell out of those peasants. The US, fearing it would lose its sphere of influence over the Chinese (which it did anyway when Mao rose), essentially cut Japan off from all vital supplies. Assholes. If the US had minded its own business then no Pearl Harbor (thus no rallying point for all those flag-waving slack-jawed rednecks) and Japan would have been free to continue its domination of China, as was its right as one sovereign nation attacking another - ideally without some do-gooder fuckwads in Washington DC meddling. -
Not having seen the english it was most likely translated from:
"Offered to the heart of the whole world, the drama of the century"
"1941: The time and place, December 7th, 6 AM, Hawaii.
The blue sea and sky were in a moment turned red on that day.
Love is the only paradise that remains for the young."
Correct me if I got something wrong. -
Just to clear some things up, I don
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I wasn't going to even bother replying to so many of the ludicrous posts here, except I saw one that sparked my amusement so much: how Europe would have been speaking Russian and not German if the USA hadn't joined the war, yada yada...how the war was already decided during that winter when the Germans failed to gain control of Moscow, etc.
While at first this might seem like a logical conclusion, it just shows what most everyone here that bashes the USA just doesn't seem to realize. And I'll clue you in: if the USA hadn't joined the war the Germans would have been the ones to get the Atom Bomb first.
Game over.
Do I need to even continue? Do I need to even go into the countless other rocket, jet, tank, submarine, cannon and other astoundingly advanced projects the Nazis were only months away from completing before the Allies rolled into Berlin? No, I don't believe I'll go that far -- you can always turn on the History Channel or visit your local libraries.
Britain would have been obliterated without US aid. They were staggering on the brink right after the Battle of Britain and Germany was developing rockets that would have done the job even without the nukes. So, who does this leave to face off against the Nazis?
Without US intervention, Rommel would never have been forced out of North Africa and all those oil resources would have been put to good use by Hitler.
Without US intervention the Japanese would have been able to support Germany in a ONE FRONT war versus the Russians, and as soon as the Germans put their newest toys into play the Russians would have been driven right back to Moscow in about 6 months.
Really, folks, so many of you over-simplify World War II. It was the most incredibly complex war in history. I hope a few of you learned something from this.
I know nationalism runs deep in many people, but that doesn't mean you should go around insulting your allies. China to take the place of the USA?! HAHAHAHAHAH. Pleeeeeeeeeze. Let's get real ok? It's not like the smart guys in America don't haven't been aware of that danger for a looong time.
Believe me, if the missiles fly at Taiwan, we'll be ready. And it won't be pretty.
Toodles,
Saxster
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What the hell is your point??? Its okay for the Japanese to invade those 'peasents' in China and dominate them. Becuase its 3 soverign nations fighting? Then what the hell is wrong with us fighting them? Its two soverign nations! Oh and the Japanese treated the Chinese like animals and were every bit as insane as the Germans and needed their asses kicked. SO we're the evil imperialists but the Japanese who were an empire and invaded China were fine. Yeah, nice hypocritical point. I mainly commented cause you were so much an atypical subject of nonsence American bashing. OHH US wanted to hold its influence on China so we're evil unlike the Japanese who valiently invade and crush them??? What the hell are you writing about? Fact is Japan got its asses kicked cause they were greedy and wanted to rule the world. And if we didn't kick their asses when the Germans won the war they would have. Oh and they would have attacked us eventually because they were attacking everything is ite and like Hitler wanted to rule the world. Or would you have made peace with them and proclaimed 'Peace in our time' until they bombed LA which if they hit Hollywood I wouldn't mind.
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Just thought I'd say that... Additional note, patriotism always leads to prejudice. Never forget that. It's never about feeling proud, it's about feeling superior.
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Wow!! Bruckheimer and Bay at the helm of one of the biggest tragedies in american history! This should be fun! Its like if Arnold Schwarcenhilkndsaflkj (you get the idea) and Jean-Claude Van Damme teamed up to do Julius Ceaser with a lil Keanu Reeves for spice! " Uhh ee too Bruteah or something dude" Give me a damn break!!! If this isnt beenie babyism i dont know what the hell is!!!! Can't wait to see this all star cast in this all american flick of crap! Cant wait to see the champaigne bottles that tend to magically appear in moments of triumph in Bay films or the victory run and danger music of Bruckheimer's bubble gum crap! And of course you know theres gonna be lots of Coca Cola spottings and lots of crappy top forty needle drop! This is so sad, with SAG on strike and WGA on strike and nobody wanting to work we have to deal with this trash. I just cant wait for all the animated films to come out........maybe we can take over and get rid of all these half assed attempts at acting.
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Let's point some things out: 1) I'm not anti-american: you make the best movies, you have the greatest basketball leagues and the best sense of humour worldwide (just watch "The Simpsons" or "South Park"). 2) Anyway, when I talk about the unknowledge of spanish (and european culture) I refer to how American movies sometimes doesn't get information (even Tom Cruise felt a little ashamed when M:I 2 opened at Spain)... the problem is MANY people take seriously the information in historical movies (M:I 2 is not, of course) 3)I'm a bit surprised of how many people got mad about my post... well, fellows, it's all true, Franco's regime was supported AFTER World War II by American money (in fact, since the 1950's, Mr. Kreeg) in order to keep Spain safe from the communist menace. It's not antiamericanism to say that, I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. 4) I know how History is taught in America (you show us in every high-school movie), so I'm conscious you problably won't be aware of many things, but that doesn't give you the right to insult people that doesn't think the same, does it, heavy_voodoo? Why did you say the Gipsy Kings are Spaniards? They're french... see what I meant? Yeah, they sing in spanish, and yeah, they're gipsies, but they're french. Antonio Banderas as villain bullfighter, maybe, but I seriously doubt it... he has a career in Spain, too, and many spaniards (not me) wouldn't forgive him for doing that. 5) To Uncapie: dear friend, do you really meant what you said? Why, you think YOU'RE BETTER than anybody just because you're american? And why do you talk about marines? Do anybody talked about Vietnam? That's the difference between you and me, I'm not anti-american (in fact I love much of American Culture), you're xenophobe. 6)The "Saving Private Ryan" stuff: fine movie, well directed, horrible screenplay. That's all. Omaha beach? Of course, an all-american beach, that's right, but when you see the movie you get the impression - once again - that America is saving Europe. Let's be a little more constructrive, Darth_Mexico, and why do you insult my mother? I didn't insult anybody, did I? 7) Joker, you're problem seems to be that you think you're "top of the world". Wrong Impression. Spain of course is not a super-power. Don't need to. We've got problems, of course, but we live more peacefully. Should I be jelaous of what? I don't want my country to be a super-power. I prefer peace of mind. 8)Jesus O'Reilly: I agree 100% with you. 9) Remember my post, I think, and if you read the news you'll see that Mr. George Bush, Jr. agrees with me, that the next super-power would be China. That scares me as much as Mr. Bush, Jr. 10) At last, I supposed this talk back to be a funny thing, but now I see some of the posters won't tolerate another point of view and won't broad their minds. I can only say I apologize if I bothered some of you. Till next time.
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Goatman is on point with his comments he's posted here. People (especially our lame, apologists and rabidly jingoistic idiots) ought to listen up.
Secondly, I really liked 'Saving Private Ryan' until I saw 'The Thin Red Line.' That film totally blew me away. While 'Ryan" had brilliantly shot opening and closing sequences, 'Line' was deeper in every way, shape and form.
Unlike Spielberg's cartoonish Germans, much like his cartoonish Arabs in 'Raiders' (are we beginning to see a pattern here?) Mallick presents the Japanese soldiers as real human beings. In addition, while some of the American soldiers are decent folks, there are also a few who are as despicable as can be. -
Now maybe I am just seeing things like a Rorschach test but does anyone see faces in that one-sheet? Identify the two brightest yellow spots in the picture. IMMEDIATELY to the right of the second spot looks like a skeletal face (wearing aviation goggles?) In the dark spot to the left of the left spot there looks to be two faces one looking straight out, one looking down. To stretch things even more, the dark space just below the middle of the two spots kind of looks like a face. Does anyone else see these or am I just projecting here? (And no, I don't normally see faces looking out at me in things he he...)
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First of all, why does anyone really want to see this movie? I was jazzed about Saving Private Ryan - I trust Hanks and to some extent Spielberg. I knew they cared about the material they were handling. But Bruckheimer and Bay? They make movies with lots of (obviously) artificial emotion and package it with big explosions. If I want to see cool special effects, I'll see The Mummy Returns - at least you are getting exactly what you expect to get. If I want something creative, I'll go see Shrek. If I want something that kicks ass, I'll just wait till Fellowship. I have absolutely no interest in seeing a cheese-fest pretending to be something serious like I know Pearl Harbor will be. Oh, to that person that said the Germans would have gotten the bomb, no way. Yes, it appeared they were technologically advanced and moving in that direction, but Heisenberg and others working on that didn't really believe it would work because they thought they needed a hell of a lot more uranium to get the chain reaction starting then they really did. Besides, all they really wanted was to build a reactor, not a bomb. Plus, there really wasn't enough funding put into the research. The bomb in germany was a myth. P.S. Planet of the Apes is going to rock.
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two things and i'm done. one let's all take another deep breathe (what is it with me and breathing.) and agree on a simple fact. The human race is little more than a virus with shoes. Regardless of race or color or geographical location we are all part of the same pile of shit. Two for cifra2, sorry to bust your balls but you made the comments, if you can't explain them or back 'em up your gonna be shot to peices. Oh and if any of you see the mummy returns there's a real quick but hysterical tribute to Slim Pickens and Dr. Strangelove catch it if you can.
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belongs to Kyle.Reese
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Well, just to tell you my impression that I explained my point of view in my second post... even though that you only have to ask an history teacher to confirm what I say. Didn't mean to bother you or any other american, it's just that I'm tired about hearing that "America freed Europe". America freed a big portion of Europe, but some where left to communist and others were kept by fascists (despite my thoughts that I understand why the Allies didn't invade Spain). For another time, please don't get THAT angry, the world is a shit... but we're all human beings.
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the last word belongs to Kyle.Reese... Stop posting!
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yep, that is right. the sound of music was not shown in austria until about 5 months ago. first time ever. and all the austrian people i have met who have seen private ryan thought it was stupid and badly written, they did not give a rats arse about how anyone was portrayed. cifra2, you are right, the americans are facist bastards who hide behind democracy. i am not saying anyway else is better, well actually australia is better and that is why we can't go letting everybody in because we would become like america, but anyone, australia rocks and people only like america becuase they make movies there, that's it! how could anyone actually like that place, yuck, beyond me. and i will not be the last to post but niether shall you by the last to post kyle, so ner.
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cifra2 i agree with you that we (americans) didn't free europe, it absolutley was a combined effort.(thus the title "world war") i hope i didn't give you that impression if i did it was not my intent. Further i cannot stand saving private ryan. This is for a variety of reasons, too many to go into. As for the depictions in the film some were right on (the beach offensives seperated by nationality. the french family, and certain aspects of the germans.) others were so incredibly fake they boggle me to this day. back to the point, you did back up your points well and while some i disagree with, i respect your opinion. And i give you props for assisting in starting a kickass talkback session.
As for Bcoming, yes all american's are facisits. despite our many varied colors and beliefs our contry is united in our hatred for austrailia. we actually hold secret gatherings in our towns and cities, at which we kill then eat austrailian babies. i'll probibly be killed for revealing this information but you deserve it you dumbshit. -
Japan, as a sovereign nation had every right to attack another nation. I have zero problem with them attacking China. US shoulda kept outa of it, continued to sell weapons, minerals, oil and supplies to both Chinese rebels and Japanese soldiers. Exploit the war. But instead that commie Roosevelt puts up his blockade, thus forcing Japan to retatliate. Had we not put the embargo on Japan, there would be no Pearl Harbor on December...what was it 7th or some shit? Regardless, the point is pretty clear and not the least bit hypocritical...no problem with Japan attacking China and none with what they did at Pearl Harbor. It was a given because we put our "morals" before money. Bad idea. ****** Don't play that BS game about the Japanese and Germans being so horrible, yet the Americans were lily clean. Ever seen a Life magazine from the 1940's? GI's sent home skulls from dead Japanese soliders that they had burned the skin off of and made into ornaments for ashtrays and trucks. Ripping out teeth for gold and silver was a common US GI practice. Heck, the prevalent racism of the US military lead one Air Force general to comment that Japanese could not fly at night and were horrible pilots as asians are "myopic." Of course the myopia comment is sorta ironic given who didn't see the true danger. I'm not even gonna touch the whole issue of atom bombs and official gov't statements or political cartoons all based on blatant racism.
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Unlike Germany were their past and what they did in world war two {including the holocost!}is covered in their Text Books. The result is that they have come to terms with there past and have learned from it. Japenese considers themselves victims and not the ones who started the war. They suffer from a collective amnesia and refuse to admit or even regonize the facts. The japenes war lords made a fatal mistake in 1941, The actually began to believe their own Bull shit! They never had any intention to conquer the US. They confinced themselves that they were going to attack us, give us a bloody nose and we would be so weak and moraly bankrupt we would then negotate an end to the war. They could not believe that after killing almost 3000 americans we would lose our temper. Yammamoto who planed the attack and who had spent many years in the USA. {He opposed the war with America!} Wanted Japan to declare war then attack an hour later. When he found out that Japan attacked first, with out declaring war and while our two goverments were talking peace. He said he knew of nothing that would anger the Americans more. He also told his emprer he could run wild for six months but after that he could promise nothing. Six months later almost to the day, We broke the back of the Japenese navy at the battle of midway. There would be three more years of terrible fighting, some of it the most savage since the middle ages. This fighting would become savage as well as hopless for the enemy, but they would not face facts and continued to delude themselves into continuing the war. It led to the droping of the atomic bombs because any invasion would have cost the lives of about a million americans and tens of millions of japanese. As for our part in ww2 don't forget we were the only country who managed to fight a two front war. With the help of the British and Russians. Could we have won both wars with out the Russians? the answer would be yes but at a very high price in the dead at least 5 million americans would have died fighting both Japan and germany on our own. So you can say that the Russians through their bravery and sacrifice saved the lives of 5 million americans. Something we should always remeber and be gratefull for. The british were almost equaly improtant as a base and a friend not to mention comrade in arms.
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Germany fought a two front war too, genius. And BTW, the US involvement in Europe was pretty damn limited compared to the extensive efforts of the brits and much more importantly the russians. The Russians lost in the neighborhood of 20 million total (military and civilian) people - compared to US deaths, a measely 292 thousand. If not for Germany's attack on Russia, Germany woulda wiped out the UK. Hitler's opening of a two front war is seen as the biggest blunder of the whole exercise. Had he not moved on Russia until Europe was under control things would have been very different.***************As for the constantly perpetuated lie about Japan not even acknowledging WWII in history...I wish this would die. Japan publicly acknowledges but to date refuses, rightly so, to apologize for actions the nation took 50+ years ago. Like apologies for Slavery in the US, an apology for actions taken by a totally different gov't power is just plain silly. And don't think Japan doesn't feel the result of WWII every damn day. Their constitution was written by America and forced on them by the Allied powers. Much as Western society forced Japan to let them in during the 19th century.
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The Thin Red Line was a horrible horrible piece of shit. I don't know about all of you morons who thought it was a great film(in which you say you loved it when you really didn;t), but I nearly had a brain aneurysm upon realizing Terrence Malick was putting NATURE over human life. Okay I'll say it again, the fucking movie, put NATURE over human life. The whole movie stank of bullshit. Soldiers were portrayed as greek fucking philosophers. Soldiers under that kind of extreme physical and emotional pressure and assault DO NOT philosophize. They DON'T have the luxury or any concern other than eating good food, staying alive, getting the fuck out of there in one piece, going back to their family or wives. They don't sit around and talk aboiut how "nature contends with the trees" The whole, "the only casualty of war is mother nature" message of The Thine Red Line should be enough to burn Malick alive while he sleeps inside his VW van. The fact is, the whole movie was just a beautiful photo album, but only because John Toll was the director of photography. Thin red Line joins the ranks of other putrid movies as one of the worst of all time. Dishonest, a view of war that's been filtered through the filmmaker's own prejudice, and most importantly, the movie was made without any research WHATSOEVER. Platoon, Three Kings, and PAths of Glory are war films that are honest and are without interference by the filmmaker's personal interpretations. ANYONE who claims Thin Red Line is a great film is so full of shit, they must be burping chunks of cow poo. Absolute idiots. You all think just because Thin Red Line was boring, meditative, and full of jerk off philosophizing, think that equals brilliance. Morons!!!! The sad thing is, the people who you think hated Thin Red Line because they were too "dumb" are actually people like me. Who REALLY understood the silliness of the movie, all the while you nimrods were thinking, "I don't get it... so I'll just tell people it's a great film to cover up my moronic self" If you Red Line lovers truly understood the movie, you would be saying the exact things I'm saying.
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That faggot pissboy is obviously some dickless japanese whore. Quit trying to defend your wartime atrocities and get down on your fucking knees to apologize to every asian country. I hate those commie chinese, but they should finish what america started and launch every nuke they have at those nips. After vaporizing japan, china will get a nobel peace prize and be showered with praise from asian countries for ridding from the world an unrepentant whore of a country.
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at all. I think you just missed the point of the film entirely. In which case I wont preach because you will never change your opinion.
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that's Melanie Griffith from Cecil B. Demented (2000). Actually, Pearl Harbor is a porn film, you see.
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A Second World War-related article. Possibly better even than Star Wars for bringing out the best in the talkback community. You people never get tired of it do you?
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In response to the remark by "Afrosheen" that President Roosevelt had prior knowledge about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor has no basis in fact. I suggest he, or anyone else intested in the facts, read Gordon Prange's book "At Dawn We Slept." I quote from the introduction by the book's two editors: "Prange dealt with this exhaustively in his original manuscript and reached the conclusion that neither the evidence nor common sense justified this view of the matter." Also, according to ADWS, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Imperial Japanese Fleet, first seriously considered a strike at Pearl Harbor 18 months before the actual attack. From the beginning, Yamamoto considered surprise to be essential for the strike to be a success. Therefore, the attack would be Japan's declaration of war and would precede any formal document. Prange spent 37-years researching his book, conducting interviews on both sides as well as examining unclassified documents. I think that makes him a reliable source.
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You know what really bothers me about WWII flicks? They TOTALY try to omit that after what happened at Pearl Harbor, The U.S. put anyone and everyone who was Japanese in Camps. I know it's not something to be proud of, but how can we learn from our mistakes by HIDDING THEM??
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It would make sense that the Japanese would see this movie - the same way they went to see tora! tora! tora! It's a feel good movie for japan. A strategic, well-fought, well-executed plan of attack. The same way Americans went to see the Longest Day and the Australians went to see Gallipoli and the Scots went to see Braveheart and so on and so on.
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Geez some people pick up trashy antigovernemnt comics and believe them whole sale. If you believe that kind of bunk baron, kyle, and pissboy, i got some ocean front property in las cruces new mexico i can sell ya. Anyways, darth mexico is right about his history. About the holocaust, what about the 7 million Ukrainans, as well a million Poles, Gypsies and of course millions of Russians the Germans put to death in WW2? All we ever talk about is the murdered Jews?
As to the concentration camps in the US. The government has apologized and awarded money to the families. Saddest day in US history I might add. Of course, while the US has apologized for this war crime, the Japanese have yet to acknowledge their genocide. Well what about the Italian concentration camps or the American Germans who were hastled and had to change their names to Smith in WW2? No one talks about them. The difference between the way they were treated and the prisoners of the Japanese were treated was humongous. The Japanese had a field day with other Asains, they butchered them left and right. Hey lets practice germ warfare, mmmm which chinese village shall we put a plague on today? How about the beheading of prisoners of war for fun, I got this neat new sword! European and American prisoners were butchered but a hundred times more Asian prisoners of war died thanks to the fine Hospitality of the Japanese. The Japanese had a view point in WW2 that they were superior and everyone else was inferior. On the subject of movies, putting british or canadians in a zone they werent in is ridiculus. I know!!! well put in a brigade of Russias finest on Omaha beach so we wont offend our Russian neighbors!!! Now that is revision my friends! On the subject of Russia, that was a nasty brutish slug fest which the americans provided raw and finished material to our Russian comrades. They withstood the Nazi menace while butchering their own people on the side. Any Russian compatriot who was liberated from German prisoner of war camps was sent to concentration camps and labeled as enamies of the state.
On the subject of British standing up to Germany, they had US support of material on their side and the fact that Hitler was a moron and didnt do a land invasion but let his airforce continue with the war on Britian. He had air superiority then and could have pulled a succesful but bloody landing on British soil. Whether or not he could stay there once he landed is another subject. Anyways i digress too much. -
AfroSheen:
Your last post is incorrect in (at least)the following respects:
1. "Roosevelt and the US military knew about the invasion and let it happen because it was the only way to get the US into the war. Sort of like what Churchill later had to do with Coventry." This is a common myth among conspiracy theorists and Roosevelt haters, which has been demolished by serious historians on the subject. I would suggest you read "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon Prange, which spends 800 pages describing what and when the US knew and did not know. The US had solid intelligence in December, 1941 that suggested Japan would declare war that month, but the common belief was that the Phillipines or Guam would be struck, not Pearl Harbor. In no way did Roosevelt or his senior advisors know when and where the war would start.
"3.If the Japanese had realized how much damage they had done they scould have taken the entire American West Coast."
Based on what evidence? The Japanese were barely able to scrape together enough oil tankers to get Nagumo's Pearl Harbor strike force halfway across the Pacific to Hawaii, much less a slow moving invasion force all the way across the Pacific. In fact in the early stages of the Pearl Harbor attack planning some members of Yamomoto's planning staff considered and then rejected the idea of sending an invasion force to Hawaii following the strike force. This was quickly rejected because of logistical problems and the overwhelming commitment of the Japanese Army to campaigning in Asia. It's hard to see any situation where Japan would have launched anything other than raids on the West Coast in the six months following Pearl Harbor.
"...but the US would never have nuked Germany, why because the Germans where white."
This is completely contradicted by the historical record. The A-Bomb was not conceived in a vaccum, but was specifically aimed at Nazi Germany. The Manhattan Project's origins lay in the research and lobbying of refugee scientists fleeing European facism, including Enrico Fermi and Albert Einstein. American and British political support for the program
came out of a fear that the Nazis, working under the direction of Werner Heisenburg, a preeminent physicist, would develop, the bomb before the Allies. The A-Bomb would certainly have been used against the Germans if it had been available before their defeat. I would suggest you read Richard Rhodes's excellent "The Making of
the Atomic Bomb" on this issue.
I have no idea as to the whether the remainder of your post is similarly incorrect, but I would suggest you do some reading before you next provide "some points for the uninformed."
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It's a misconception that the only reason we dropped the A-bomb on Japan is because of their ethnicity. There were actually more Germans killed than Japanese. It just took hundreds of bombs in Germany rather than just one big one. The inferno that was Hamburg was visible 200 miles away. Streets were rendered impassable because the heat had melted the asphalt, and people seeking shelter in canals were boiled. For more information, see Richard Rhodes' Pulitzer-winning book "The Making of the Atomic Bomb."
One other interesting fact is that Japan looked into the possibility of producing an A-bomb, but basically didn't have the resources or time to devote to the effort. Otherwise, they would have certainly developed and attempted to used it. Also, they would never have been able to efficiently attack the West Coast. It's too far from their bases.
I'm interested to see how Hollywood plays this touchy subject. -
was burned and attacked well before Pearl Harbor. What is there to strike when americans wasn't there? Manila was burned and raped , but there was no real military confrontation as it is according to Hollywood.
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Maybe the producers and the directors should get their stories straight if they really want to make a historically accurate motion picture. Or do they simply want to make a movie? All I know is that Wallace does write great scripts (Braveheart is perhaps my favorite movie), if somewhat innaccurate. For instance, William Wallace was gruesome on and off the battle field, renowned for his disgusting ways during war. And, now, with Pearl Harbor. Let's get one thing straight: the U.S. government knew Japan was bombing Pearl Harbor. They let those soldiers die because they needed a reason to get into the war. They said that Japan was a danger to our freedom...BS! All they could do was strap bombs to balloons. No! Not balloons! I hope the movie acknowledges soldier's courage over government war politics (sleazy and deceptive bastards!) In any case, I hope that this movie is entertaining, at best, but I'm sure that, given the trailer, this movie will be very pro-America on the whole Pearl Harbor fiasco. In short...Don't listen to just Hollywood. Get the full story. Side Note: I just saw Tigerland, the new Joel Schumacher film and it was maybe my favorite Vietname-Boot Camp type movie with an amazing performance by the protagonist, Collin Farrel.
The Government Lies...
LuX
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May 06, 2001 12:11:17 AM CDT
Japanese title: "The Day We Seriously Kicked Some Round-Eye Ass!
by exit272
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Say Lux where do you get your information that the US knew Pearl Harbor was going to be bombed? the same sources that say the Egyptians couldnt build the pyramyds becuase they werent white and thus not intelligent enough. So it must be aliens that built them. or how about the sources that say the Native Americans couldnt build their pyramids becuase they were savages? Pleeeassse. Roosevelt was a politician but he could never orchestrate such a pin point attack on Pearl Harbor, mmmm lets see i desperately need the US in the WAr, I KNow!!! the Japanese are TOO DUMB to come up with a strategy since their NOT WHITE so ill help them along and force them to attack us. You giving too little credit to a hard working and intellegent people by stating it was a US government shame. While we sleeped, and we were caught off gaurd, the Japanese pulled off a brilliant military strike. More kudoos to them I say. Believing in a US conspiracy shows you dont believe they have the huevos or intelligence to be military strategist and they did, I have all of WW2 history to back me up. What about you? Back up your wild stories with facts.
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Well AfroSheen did a great work! OK, this is like JFK's assassination and many other things... too many myths around it. Two examples: a) Sinking of Spanish Armada (Spanish history: a storm destroyed most of it, English just finnished the job. English history: They did all job, no storm involved) b) Cuban War between U.S.A. and Spain (U.S.A. history: Spaniards sank an American ship. Spanish history: Americans sank their own ship). Do this really bother me? Spain lost both wars, so nothing changes wheter version you choose. My point of view about Pearl Harbor? I believe Americans knew the japanese would attack them sooner or later, but Pearl Harbor was a surprise.
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May 06, 2001 11:30:56 AM CDT
Afrosheen, you must really have a lot of free time on your hands
by kyle.reese
Jesus, you've written more there than I did for my final film thesis.
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Afrosheen looks like you did some research on the subject, but the same subject states circumstantial evidence. Geez i could come up with a shit load of theories using circumstantial evidence. I like the Xfiles touch with the government suppressing info on a man dead close to fifty years now. Good grief, Its hard to suppress history and secrets in our govenrment that is so inept, it cant protect vital security information from showing up in a chinese newspaper that day, and you expect me to swallow this whopper? At an age when it is so kosher to debunk and make our government look vile, and so much more important trash has been ressurected with solid evidence, you expect me to believe that they can still hide such important information? until more concrete evidence shows up, I will tend to believe that these papers are no more than conspiracy theories you talk about around camp fires.
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...it's about lucious, creamy and sexy shots! Adrenaline, flying-down-to-the-deck-with-the-bomb, kick-you-in-the-head and ears assault of the senses. They couldn't care less about "real people's" memories or keeping history alive. They know that "heroic" heart-stopping explosions excite the hormone-fueled teens into giving up the all-mighty dollar. As long as we keep supporting Hollywood "roller-coaster-thrills" movies, they'll keep pouring obscene amounts of money into hollow, visual-FX teen-bait films. Welcome to Coney Island, turn of the century, 100 years later...
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So nobody really seems to care that the US essentially stole the Hawaiian Islands from their monarch for the same purpose as the Japanese used in bombing Pearl Harbor. Whoever controlled Hawaii more or less controlled the Pacific. The US had no business being there in the first place so who gives a flying monkey about what any of you patriotic (or not) sods seem to think about how bad this film will be. The bad history that will be perpetrated by the film is already following bad history being perpetrated by America, and unfortunately most of Hawaii as well.
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May 06, 2001 11:12:51 PM CDT
How it plays doesn't matter to a carnie stand attendant like Jer
by stopbruckheimerj
How can I make shit and be paid millions of dollars for it? What is the magic formula? What carnival game can I run that will gyp the most people out of the most money? Ah, such is the day to day thinking of the Bruckheimer Bay duo. I WANT MY MONEY BACK FROM ARMAGEDDON! The Armageddon in Kentucky Fried Movie was ten times better!
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